LL-L "History" 2006.04.10 (03) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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   L O W L A N D S - L * 10 April 2006 * Volume 03
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.08 (04) [D/E]

The funny thing is that these place names in Dutch are already in use in
personal names!
"Dusseldorp" and "Sleeswijk" are common Achterhoek names, "Van Brunswijk"
was the (in-)famous "Bush Negro" rebel leader of the Jungle Commando in
Suriname, I've also heard of "Van Maagdenburg" and if you'd google around
with a bit of imagination you would probably find all of them.

Groetjes
Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Language varieties
>So, to go with Mark's theme and add to his list, we could have ended up
with
>Dutch place names like the following:
>
>   Bergedorp (Bargdörp/Bergedorf)
>   Bremervoord (Bremervöör/Bremervörde)
>   Bruinswijk (Bruunswiek/Braunschweig)
>   Dusseldorp (Düsseldörp/Düsseldorf)
>   Grijpswoud (Griepswohld/Greifswald)
>   Heiligehaven (Hilligenhaven/Heiligenhaven)
>   Het Oude Land (Dat Ole Land (Olland)/Das Alte Land)
>   Houtminden (Holtminnen/Holzminden)
>   Housteen (Holsteen/Holstein)
>   Meisjeburg (Maideborg/Magdeburg)
>   Ossenbrugge (Ossenbrügge/Osnabrück)
>   Sleiswijk (Sleswig/Schleswig)
>   Wopperdaal (Wopperdal/Wuppertal)
>   Zwartenbeek (Swattenbäk/Schwarzenbeck)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi, Ingmar!

Maybe this isn't really that "funny," considering that there's a long 
history of people migrating east and west across today's 
Belgian-Netherlands-German borders, considering also that there used to be a 
much less disturbed language continuum in which people pronounced the names 
of places within the continuum range in their own language varieties.  Thus, 
even in German you say, for instance Brügge, Brüssel, Dünkirchen, Nimwegen 
und Arnheim.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2006.04.09 (01) [D/E]


  From: Sandy Fleming
  Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.07 (04) [D/E/German]

  I sometimes think about what would have happened between England and
  Scotland if Edward I hadn't been determined to unite the island at all
  costs. I'm inclined to think that, ironically, the island would be much
  more united now if he hadn't stirred up such sharp enmity on either side
  of the border. It might even be that the whole idea of Scotland and
  Scottishness would just seem like an unimportant sideline in mediaeval
  politics.

  Sandy,

  I think that's very true, the Lowlands Scot/English divide at the time was 
minimal, far less significant thant the Highland/Lowland division or the 
English/Welsh one.  Relations were very good between the two countries up to 
that time.  The irony is that all the key players in the struggles - 
Plantagenets, Bruces, Balliols, Comyns, and probably even "Braveheart" 
Wallace, were all French speakers!

  From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz
  Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

  I think, in this respect we must go back in history a little further and
  think over what happened from about 900 to 1100. I don't know the exact
  story but fact is, that Skandinavian people settled round the year 900 
both
  in England and France. Those who settled in England are referred to as 
Danes
  whereas those who arrived in France were called Normans, as we know. I 
think
  they were the same people, one part of them decided to go Britain, the 
other
  preferred France.

  Aloha, Karl-Heinz!

  I think it is important to distinguish between Anglo-Danes on the one hand 
and Normans on the other.   Scandinavian settlement in England was in large 
measure a "folk" movement, they arrived speaking a language closely related 
to English of the time, even mututally intelligible.  They made a 
significant impact on the language at "fireside" level, and some historians 
have described England of 1066 as largely a largely Anglo-Danish country.

  Hrolf inn Gangr's group of warriors who were ceded part of the Frankish 
realm as a buy-off were really quite different.  They were a war-band with 
no real intent on settlement initially, and they rapidly set themselves up 
as a ruling elite.  By the 11th Century, they had largely lost their 
Scandinavian tongue.  There are Norse place-name elements in Normany, but 
the impact is light compared with the English Danelaw.  It's significant 
that Harold of England spoke Danish (his mother's language), but William of 
Normandy didn't.
  ----------


  Paul 

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