LL-L "Traditions" 2006.04.19 (02) [D/E]
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19 April 2006 * Volume 02
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From: Heather Rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2006.04.14 (09) [E]
Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Perhaps some of you can think of similar traditions.<
Not a tradition but just a nice modern twist on an old one.
A grandmother was telling her grand-daughter the story of The Frog Prince
and as she got to the end " .... and the princess placed the frog , as
requested, on the pillow beside her. When she awoke the next morning to her
astonishment, the frog had turned into a handsome prince.", she noted a
look of disbelief on her grand-daughter's face. " Don't you believe it? "
she asked. " No," replied the grand-daughter, " And I bet her mother didn't
either!"
Ah! How soon is the innocence of childhood lost!
Heather
----------
From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2006.04.14 (09) [E]
On 19/04/2006, at 2:08 AM, Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:
Subject: LL-L "Traditions"
On the subject of 'Bakenbrande' I reckon Our Ron should start ducking
roundabout now. EVERYONE has a spring bonfire tradition, & we will ALL now
dive in...
A very old Scots non-spring bonfire, hopefully, is still held on the old
Victoria Day in (as I recall June) later changed to Empire Day.
When I was a child in the 1940's the custom ceased during WW2 then started
up again.
Prior to the actual day kids in districts all over Edinburgh diligently
collected 'bonefire wid' which was assembled at a central venue.
Kids from other districts would then raid other folks' stashes and glorious
battles raged as mothers leant out of tenement windows yelling
at the raiders "Ah'll gie Yew it !". We never stayed long enough to find out
exactly what 'it' was; I suspect the ancestors of those ladies yelled the
same at English invaders. :-)
Came THE DAY and all the accumulated combustibles were heaped in a huge
mound IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET !!!!
In at least one case kids were stopped from lighting the pile when it was
seen they'd erected it around an old gas lamop post for "stability".
Fires blazed all around the City and fire brigades rushed round
extinguishing them, next day bonefire sites were easy to see from the great
discs of
melted tarmac.
But why did latter day kids have bonfires on Victoria Day ?
If one looks at the date from the perspective of the Julian calendar it
seems the date fell with the old Celtic fire Festival of Lughnassaid,
did those fires originally blaze in honour of another Lady ? This Festival
was also one to celebrate fertility.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns
----------
From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2006.04.18 (05) [D/E]
Ron says:
<I am convinced that bird mythologies are so similar the world over (and I
<haven't even mentioned South America, Africa, Papua-New Guinea, Australia
<and Oceania, and the whole aspect of the phoenix) that you wonder if we are
<dealing with connections rather than with coincidences.
It would probably be too much to ask, to hope that the study of the bird
sagas would get us back closer to the origin of culture. Or would it?
Jacqueline
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions
Well, Jacqueline, personally I believe that they do take us way back, but
probably only a relatively short way in the great scheme of things.
The problem is that there's only collecting of indications, no hope of
finding actual proof, and, as with ancient linguistic connections, there's
an overlap of science and belief. People will find what they feel supports
their beliefs, and they will refute whatever runs counter to their beliefs.
When it comes to ancient Eurasian traditions that are found in the Americas
as well, they prove to many the hypothesis that indigenous Americans
descended at least in part from immigrants from Asia (and latest DNA studies
seem to support that). But many indigenous American communities reject any
of this because according to their oral histories and creation mythologies
their people have always lived in America. (Remember the quarrel about the
remains of the Kennewick man here in Washington State?) Furthermore, there
is still a very large percentage of people in the world that believe in the
separate origin of "races" and thus reject the idea of cultural spread along
with population spread and layering or mixing. (This includes even new
religious movements, such as a certain one currently banned in a certain
large country, a movement whose leader proposes separate origins,
destinations and heavens for different races and speaks out against
acceptance of racial mixing, besides acceptance of homosexuality, though
apparently the average follower isn't aware of this. [Though I do not wish
to come across as condoning that country's or any other country's ban of
religions.])
Outside the Lowlands, and on a smaller (though still very large) scale there
is the example of the sweat lodge. Sweat lodges are temporary or permanent
structures in which people, usually groups of people, induce sweating by
means of fire or heated rocks. This is connected with meditation and with
ceremonies, usually aimed at physical, mental and spiritual cleansing as
well as at inducing altered states of conciousness. (It appears to have
begun as a shamanist ritual.) This is particularly widespread among North
American and Siberian indigenous peoples, also in parts of Central Asia, and
the lodges and ceremonies are remarkably similar on both continents. In
Siberia, they are very common as far west as the Ural Mountains (e.g., the
Veps _külbet_). But ... then you find them farther west in Finland
(_sauna_), Livonia (_sauna_), Karelia (_kyly_), Estonia (_saun_), the Võro
region (_sann_), Saami-Land (_sávdni_), etc., and we know that these Saami-
and Balto-Finns' ancestral lands are the western edge of Siberia and farther
east. If you have ever experienced traditional Finnish culture you know
that the real type of sauna involves far more than sweating, that it is "a
sort of religious experience," as one person once explained to me (when I
was close to passing out). Though usually combined with water bathing
(probably as a later stratum, perhaps during the Austro-Hungarian era?), we
find similar features in (Urals-derived) Hungarian culture (_fürdő_), where
people tend to relax and even meditate immersed in hot water for hours,
often in splendid public facilities. And we find something very similar in
Russian culture (Ð±Ð°Ð½Ñ _banja_), probably even more sauna-like,
especially in
traditional, rural settings. So Russians aren't Uralic, you might say.
Well, much of the area between a bit west of Moscow and the Baltic Sea coast
used to be predominantly Finnic (mostly Izorian/Ingrian, Karelian and
Ludian) before it became Russified, so the population and the culture is
largely part-Finnic. Furthermore, we have the Turkic _hammam_ (Turkish bath)
which has relatives in Central Asia. Now add to this the Japanese bath
(風呂 _furo_, which involves very hot water and profuce sweating). So
what we may be dealing with here looks like an enormous swatch of this
cultural feature from Eastern Europe to at least North America, if not
farther.
So, on the one hand you could build up this elaborate hypothesis of a
combined sweat lodge culture on the basis of its supposed remnants flung far
and wide, and you might even try to make a case of Hungarian _fürdő_ and
Japanese _furo_ (< _huro_) being related words. On the other hand, you
could dismiss it all as coincidence, arguing that people in cold climates
would naturally seek ways of heat exposure (which also makes you more
cold-resistant), and that relaxation and, in extreme exposure, altered
states of consciousness are logical extensions of this. How could anyone
win such a debate?
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
----------
From: Marcel Bas <roepstem at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2006.04.18 (05) [D/E]
Dag allemaal,
Dit is allemaal nauw aan vergelijkende taalwetenschappen verwant.
Gemeenschappelijke woorden en gemeenschappelijke betekenissen hangen ten
nauwste samen met een gemeenschappelijk wereldbeeld. Wat dat betreft is er
een razend interessant boek verschenen van de hand van Jaan Puhvel met de
duidelijke titel "Comparative Mythology". Hier vind u een recensie:
http://www.bkwyrm.net/readone.php?recordID=00131.004
Verder noemenswaardig zijn de werken van Georges Dumézil, die vooral in de
Indo-Europese mythologieën grondvormen en patronen wilde ontdekken. Dat
lukte hem goed, maar soms hield hij geen rekening met de onsamenhangendheid
van de polytheïstische werkelijkheid. Zo wilde hij telkens aantonen dat
pantheons - en van daaruit samenlevingen - uit drie lagen of uit drie
hoofdpersonen moesten bestaan. Patheons waren echter veel te ingewikkeld en
reflecteerden te goed de complexere psyche van de mens. Verder kon je in de
Indo-Europese mythen net zo goed tweemanschappen vinden en dichotome
samenlevingen.
Zoals Reinhard opmerkt zijn er verschillende theorieën over mythen met een
gemeenschappelijke oorsprong. Met name waar het om de verwantschappen van de
Paleosiberische volkeren met de Amerinden betreft, kun je twee continenten
overbruggen. Men denkt dat Paleosiberische talen aan de Amerikaanse
Na-Dené-talen verwant zijn.
Dit brengt ons tot een theorie: sinds de theorie van de Indo-Europese talen
zijn intrede gedaan heeft zijn er mensen geweest die weer de Indo-Europese
talen bij een grotere, overkoepelende talenstam willen indelen. Deze
talenstam wordt de Nostratische taalgroep genoemd en zou de Indo-Europese,
de Finoegrische en de Oeral-Altaïsche taalgroepen omvatten. Dit is alles nog
hypothetisch, maar er zijn wel mooie woordovereenkomsten gevonden tussen de
taalgroepen op het gebied van basiswoorden (zoals woorden voor melk, naakt,
water, koud, lever, enz.). Veel Indo-Europisten gruwen van deze hypothese,
terwijl anderen er weer zeer gefascineerd door zijn. In Leiden staat men er
niet op voohand negatief tegenover.
En dan is er een theorie die nóg overkoepelender te werk gaat en ons dan bij
de in het vorige bericht besproken eenheid tussen Eurazië en Amerindische
volkeren brengt: de superfamilie der 'Dene-Caucasische talen' (of 'Sino-Dene
talen'). Men meent overeenkomsten te vinden tussen geïsoleerde talen in
Eurazië (met name tussen het Ket en Noord-Kaukasische talen) en de Na-Dene
talen in de Verenigde Staten van Amerika. Het Ket is een West-Siberische
taal die op stervan na dood is.
Men kan nog verder gaan door ook Afrikaanse talen erbij te betrekken, en het
Baskisch, enz. Dan kom je op nog gladder ijs terecht. Maar hetb is daarom
niet minder interessant! Wat, bijvoorbeeld, te denken van het universele
woord voor 'vinger'? Ziehier (ik hoop dat het goed overkomt):
Tik, Finger/One
Niger-Kordofanian family
Fulup qsik~sex finger (~ separates variant
pronunciations)
Nalu te finger
Gur dike one
Gwa dogbo one
Fon dokpa one
Ewe deka one
Tonga tiho finger
Chopi t'ho finger
Ki-Bira zika finger
Ba-Kiokwa zigu finger
Afro-Asiatic family of North Africa
Oromo toko one
West Gurage tegu only one
Yaaku tegei hand
Saho ti one
Bilin tu one
Tsamai dokko one
Nefusa tukod finger
Hausa tak only one
Gisiga tekoy one
Gidder te-teka one
Logone tku first
Eurasiatic family
Indoeuropean branch
Indoeuropean root deik
Latin dig-itus finger
Latin indeks forefinger
English toe toe
Old English tahe toe
Latin Decem 10
Uralic branch
Votyak odik one
Zyrian otik one
Turkic branch
Chuvash tek only, just
Uighur tek only merely
Chagatai tek only, single
Turkish tek only
Turkish teken one by one
Korean tayki one, thing
Old Korean tek 10
Ainu tek hand
Ainu atiki five
Japanese te hand
Chuckchi-
Kamchatkan itygin paw-foot
Eskimo-Aleut
Upik tik-iq index finger
Inupiaq tik-iq index finger
Inupiaq Tikkuagpaa he points to it
Attu tik-laq middle finger
Attu atgu finger
Attu tagataq one
Dene-Caucasian
Rai tik(-pu) one
Nung thi one
Tibetan (g-)tsig one
Yeniseian branch
Ket tek finger
Punpokol tok finger
Kott tog-an finger
Na-Dene branch
Haida ta with the fingers
Tlingit t-eeq finger
Tlingit Tek one
Eyak tikhi one
Sarsi tlik one
Kutchin (i-)Tag one
Hupa ta? One
Navajo ta? One
Austric family
Austroasiatic branch
Kharia ti? Hand
Riang ti? Hand
Wa tai? Hand
Khmer tai hand
Vietnamese tay hand
Daic branch
Li dlian finger
Northern Li tlean,then finger
Loi then,cian finger
Tasmanian motook forefinger
SE tasmanian togue hand
Boven Mbian tek fingernail
Digul tuk fingernail
Amerind languages
North American Amerind Family
Nootka taka only
Mohawk tsi?er Finger
Sierra Miwok tika? Index finger
Wintun tiq-eles ten
Nisenan tok- hand
Mixe to?k, tuk one
Sayula tu?k one
Tzeltal tukal alone
Quiche tik'ex carry in the hand
Karok tik finger,hand
Achumawi wa-tuci finger
Washo tsek finger
Yana 'tgi- alone
East Pomo bi'yatsukai finger
Arraarra teeh'k hand
Pehtsik tiki-vash hand
Akwa'ala asit-dek one
Nahua tiikia?a one
Pima bajo cic one
Tarahumara sika hand
Mazatec cika?a alone
Mangue tike one
South America Amerind family
Chibcha ytiquyn finger
Chibcha Acik by ones
Borunca etsik one
Guatuso dooki one
Shiriana ithak hand
Ulua tinka-mak finger
Paez teec one
Cahuapana itekla finger,hand
Jebero itokla finger,hand
Qawashqar takso one
Siona tekua one
Siona teg-li five
Canichana eutixle finger
Yupua di(x)ka arm
Uasona dikaga arm
Upano tikitik one
Aguaruna tikij one
Murato tici hand
Uru ti one
Chipaya zek one
Itene taka one
Guamo dixi finger
Katembri tika toe
Yuracare tece thumb
Kukura tikua finger
Accaqwai tigina one
Ocaina dikabu arm
Mataco otejji one
Tagnani etegueno finger
Sensi (nawis)-tikoe one(finger)
Cavinena eme-toko hand
Botocudo (po-)cik one(finger)
Botocudo jik alone
~Merritt Ruhlen, The Origin of Language, (New York: John Wiley and Sons,
1994), p.115-119
Dit heb ik op deze webstek gezien: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/babel.htm
Ook woorden als _aq'wa_ (water) en _melek_ (melk) zijn universeel. Mensen
zoals de opsteller van de webstek hierboven zien aanwijzingen voor de
spraakverwarring van de Toren van Babel. De Voorzienigheid zou dan kennelijk
net die woorden hebben ontzien. Of je kunt ervan uitgaan dat alle talen een
gemeenschappelijke oorsprong hebben.
Hier enkele interessante webstekken over deze hypothesen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dene-Caucasian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dene-Caucasian_languages
http://www.panshin.com/trogholm/wonder/indoeuropean/indoeuropean1.html
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langue_originelle
Groeten,
Marcel.
http://roepstem.net
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