LL-L "Grammar" 2006.04.25 (07) [A/D/E]

Wed Apr 26 05:03:24 UTC 2006

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 25 April 2006 * Volume 07
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2006.04.25 (02) [A/D/E]

From: R. F. Hahn
Subject: Grammar

Folks,

Isn't it true that in the world of Afrikaans there are still some fading
remnants of more Dutch-based "high" literary and oratory styles in which
double negatives and other Afrikaans features that used to be considered
"bad" (and still are in Dutch dialects) are avoided? Let's not forget
that written Dutch, especially bureaucratic and ecclesiastic varieties,
used to be considered standards before Afrikaans became truly emancipated.

Have Afrikaans bible versions and hymn books been revised to represent
true Afrikaans, or are there still mostly "elevated," "Dutch-ish" versions
in use?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I recall that the old Union Building (Uniegebou) in Pretoria had its signs 
on features of interest in English and Dutch rather than Afrikaans.

I also remember someone telling me that the NGK (Nederlandse Gereformeerde 
Kerk) used Afrikaans bibles, whereas the more conservative NHK (Nederduitse 
Hervormde Kerk) used Dutch -  but an older, 18th C variety.  My informant 
told me she could understand modern Dutch better than most Afrikaners 
because she knew "Church Dutch" (being of NHK background).

I'm going back nearly 30 years now, so I don't know the current situation - 
and my memory might have got some wires crossed.

Also from Ron:

As for the double negative, it occurs in many Low Saxon dialects of
Germany as well, but usually not double _nich_, _neyt_, etc. But the
_nich_, _neyt_, etc., does not occur at the end but near the "partner"
word; _Dat hev ik ny (nich) seyn_, _Dat hev ik keyn maal (nich) seyn_,
_Dat het keyn eyn (nich) seyn_. My feeling is that the use of _nich_,
_neyt_, etc., serves as an emphatic device; so, "I've never (ever) seen
that," "No one/Not a single person has seen that."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I wondered where it came from.  Several Afrikaners told me it was a French 
influence, from Heugenot refugees, though the people who told me that were 
from the Cape Province, where French influence seemed to be held in special 
regard.  They even speak with an ulvular "r" over there!

Paul Finlow-Bates

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2006.04.24 (04) [D]

Beste Piet

Onderwerp: LL-L "Language use"

Eerstens, verskoon aub. my afhanklikheid van Afrikaas.

> In een ander taalforum(pje) http://www.kwatrynynalletalen.motime.com/
> kwam ik deze zin in het Afrikaans tegen:
> "die geluk kan jy nie gryp met jou hande"
> Waarom dacht ik dat het
> "die geluk kan jy nie gryp _nie_ met jou hande"
> zijn moest?
> Spreekt of schrijft het Afrikaans niet _altijd_ met een dubbele ontkenning
> (niet;-)?

Soos Onse Ron dit gestel het, 'Die geluk kan jy nie met jou hande gryp nie.'
Die kwalifiserende 'nie' van 'n negetiewe sin sluit die einde van die sin
ofteminste die betrokke klosule af.
Maar daar kan uitsonderings voorkom: As die sin vir 'n leuse uit die 'Ou
Taal' gevat word, dan weet ons Nederlands gebruik nie die 'nie' slot nie, en
los ons dit uit. In digtelike verband kan so 'n vorm ook n belang van die
rym of wat ookal aanvaar word, maar dit is beslis nie in algemen gesprek
aanvaar nie.

Daar is deesdae wankelrigheid oor die woord 'geen' wat baie (veral
Engels-moedertaalsprekendes) voel verg ook die 'nie' slot, maar in teendeel.
Dit is eintlik 'n positiewe verklaring oor 'n negetiewe hoeveelheid, en dra
die selfde grammatiekale waarde as 'min' en 'een'.

Die Uwe,
Mark.

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2006.04.24 (04) [D]

Hello Almal:

Onderwerp: LL-L "Language use"

Om uit te brei (oor my vorige brief in die lekker string):

Betreffende 'Geen' en die slot-'nie'.

Om die noodsaaklikheid van 'n positiewe verklaring oor 'n negetiewe
hoeveelheid uit te lig, verbeel jou van 'n kosskoolkind wat van plan is om
die middernag appels uit die hoof se tuin te gaan stroop. Maatjie sê
prontuit, "Jy't geen kans Ou Maat. Ja, Meneer het 'n appelboom, maar ook 'n
boerbul!"
Maar die eerste antwoord, "Glo my Ou: Ek't nie geen kans nie! Ek het eers by
die kombuis gestroop." en wys 'n rouvleisie in sy sakkie.

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Folks,

I can't help getting rid of this notion that what tended to happen in the 
early development from Lowlandic varieties to Afrikaans was a preference for 
using emphatics as default expressions; e.g.,

Low Saxon  |  Dutch  | Afrikaans

dit~düt 'this'  |  dit 'this'  |  dit 'it' (hierdie "here-this" = 'this')
dat 'that'  |  dat 'that'  |  (daardie "there-that" = 'that')
dey 'those (that)'  |  die 'those (that)'  |  die 'the'
[neg.] nich (emph. neg.)  |  ([neg.] (...) niet (emph. neg., dial.) | [neg.] 
... nie (neg.)

When I say "emph. neg." I really mean "emphatic or clarified negative 
expression," and by "clarified" I mean something like a sentence- or 
phrase-final reminder of the negative.

Of course, double negatives are common in some non-standard English 
varieties as well, such as dialectal American "Ah din' do nuthin'"* (= 'I 
did not do anything,' 'I did nothing'), "Ain't nobody comin' heah no moh" (= 
'Nobody comes here anymore/again'), and "Ah'm not gonna pay him no 
nevvuh-mahnd" ('I am not going to pay any attention to him').

* [In "vulgar" speech, "nuthin'" ('nothing') can be intensified, or rather 
"dramatized," by means of "sheeuht" ('shit': "Ah din' do sheeuht"), less 
"dramatically" by "squat" (< "squat and shit"?: "Ah din' do squat"), the 
latter of which has entered common vernacular American English and tends to 
replace older words such as "zilch," "zippo," "nada" (< Spanish 'nothing') 
and (East Coast) "gornisht" (< Yiddish גאָרנישט _gorništ_ 'nothing at all', 
cf. German _garnichts_).  Sentences such as "You did squat" (= 'You did 
nothing at all', 'You didn't do anything at all') and "She didn't get squat" 
(= 'She didn't get anything at all') are now commonly used, also in TV 
plays, for instance. It has become "purified" much the way "to suck" has 
become (e.g., "This book sucks" = 'This book is bad' < "sucks eggs" < "sucks 
..." -- well, use your imagination). There you have a genteel little 
language lesson, folks.]

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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