LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.05 (02) [E/German]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 05 August 2006 * Volume 02
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From: 'Global Moose Translations' <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.03 (10) [E/LS]

Now this is a new and interesting experience. For the first time, I have
been given the task of translating a Dutch text (technical, 4 pages) into
both German and English. I was going to do the German version first, and
then the English, but I found that it is much easier to do them both
simultaneously; I write between one and three sentences in German, then do
the same in English, plus another couple of sentences, then I catch up on
these in German, plus a few more, switch again... etc.

The interesting part is that, once I finish the German sentence, I realise
that the English sentence has already formed in my mind, processed in the
background, so-to-speak, and all I need to do is write it down. Same with
the German version, which seems to have translated itself while I did the
English. Very convenient, that.

Most of my usual translation work is German/English and English/German; I
also translate from Dutch into English or German, but usually not at the
same time. So now I have come to realise that, whenever I translate a Dutch
text, I seem to convert it to both languages automatically, no matter which
one I end up actually writing down.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' <karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.03 (10) [E/LS]

Servus, Ron!

>> And btw the Bavarian wren version has some of this “Missingsch” in
it.

> I see. But you do realize, don't you, that it's LOWER Bavarian and thus
closer to
> Central German?

I think you confuse Lower Bavaria with the North of Bavaria from about
Nuremberg to Würzburg, where so called Fränkisch/Franconian is spoken. These
dialects I would rather classify as closer to Central German, although
measured on High-German sound shift also these dialects are Upper-German.

Lower Bavaria is geographically close to Upper Austria: following the course
of the Danube, Upper Austria begins where Lower Bavaria ends. Passau, where
the Niddaboarisch version is from, is the border town between the two
countries. Bavarian and Austrian dialects are pretty close there, I
personally can't register a difference hearing older people speak these
dialects.

But I don't criticise this Wren-version, not at all, I'm not a purist. It is
Bavarian as spoken today, as I think it is typical of mainly younger
Bavarians to mix Bavarian a little with a (still locally accented) Standard
German, using some "Prussian" words and both "ging" and "gonga is". It is
also a matter of orthography. As there is no generally valid Bavarian one,
Bavarian is often spelled partly also in Standard German. Thus the author
uses alternately "dER" and "dA", "diR" and "diA", on the one side he spells
"vaddER", "spädER" "mehRER" "dERlebm", "vERschüchERt" etc. on the other
"weidA", "dAschrocka", dAwischa" etc., but his pronounciation is
consequently Bavarian with a vocalised "r".

> Unfortunately, in former times at least, there used to be a misconception
among
> Southerners, reinforced, by what seems like misrepresentation of Northern
> _Volkstheater_ plays on national TV, that Missingsch is "Low German."
(You see,
> false expectations that it should be comprehensible begin with the use of
> "German" in the name.) Since various parts of Germany presented dialect
folk
> theater plays, the North had a problem: real Low Saxon (being a separate
> language) would not be understood by most (certainly not outside Northern
Germany
> and not even among most younger North Germans). However, lipservice at
the time
> was that it was a German dialect group (which some still try to maintain
these
> days, not only in Germany but also among some Plaudietsch speakers outside
> Europe). So what could represent the North in terms of folk theater that
people
> elsewhere could relate to? Missingsch of course! After all, it is a type
of
> German dialect with Low Saxon "influences" (i.e., substrates) and had been
known
> in the South to be "typically Northern" (and yet could be understood for
the most
> part). Missingsch is rarely, if ever, used as the basic language of
plays,
> though certain roles will call for it. However, Northern theater groups,
> foremost among them the Ohnsorg-Theater of Hamburg, had to rewrite and
perform
> their Low Saxon plays in Missingsch specifically for the benefit of TV
audiences
> throughout German-speaking Europe. And then there was an element of
dishonesty
> in that this fact was not acknowledged (or if it was it must have been
buried in
> small print credits flying by). As a result, Missingsch was in effect
> misrepresented as Low Saxon. I don't know if this is still going on. I
do know
> that during my visits there were plays in genuine Low Saxon on North
German TV,
> not on national TV, mind you, and I remember that my youngest sister (who
never
> learned the language, in part because she had refused to) understood only
a tiny
> bit (and her English is fluent).

Switching German TV-stations I sometimes rest for a while on these
Missingsch Theater, but I'm not so in this "Volkstheater" thing and for me
the Missingsch spoken there is simply Northern High German with the
characteristic "sp" and "st" word-initially, you know: "über den spitzen
Stein stolpern", and some spezific words. I'd prefer performances in LS/LG
with subtitles. Would make much sense, additionally combined with
sreen-plays for download in internet would be a hit. Auch wenn's
Volkstheater ist, würde ich's mir dann schon ab zu anschauen.
Anspruchsvolleres Theater auf Niedersächsisch im TV erscheint mir ohnehin
illusorisch. Oder gibt's das auch?

> As I told other Lowlanders before you joined us, Karl-Heinz, I have had a
few
> encounters with Bavarians and other "Bayuvarians" who asked me to give
them
> demonstrations of "Low German." An Austrian colleague's reaction was
"Like
> Dutch," but I believe it's because she had seen it written and was
influenced by
> all those double vowel letters, plus her awareness that the two languages
are
> closely related. The funniest experience I had was with a Baviarian
family:
> "What? Not like THAT! No, like at Ohnsorg!" So they rejected the real
thing in
> favor of Missingsch! They had expected to understand it, and I had given
them
> merely gobbledigook. They weren't even amused, nor were they interested
in my
> explanation. ;-)

Some of the Southern German speaking today have a pretty good idea what
Plattdeutsch is, provided by an increasing knowledge of English and also the
Central German varieties as Kölsch, Berlinerisch, Ruhrpott-Sprache etc. (I
posted that before.).

> Funny? Sure! But there's a serious side to it. I believe that our
> Scots-speaking friends can relate to it, because what is very often
presented as
> "Scots," "Lallans," etc. in the media is nothing more than somewhat
"Scots-ized"
> Scottish English, and these misrepresentations tend to create or encourage
false
> expectations among non-Scots.

I suppose there are productions in the US and the UK as "Brave Heart" in
Lallans and "Scots-ized" English, but we in the German-speaking countries
only see but never hear them, because all these films are dubbed.

For all who are not used to German versions of Hollywood blockbusters: in
Germany Robert Mitchum, Cary Grant, Burt Lancaster, Randolph Scott, Glenn
Ford, Gregory Peck and others have the same voice, unless they play in the
same production. All of them were synchronised/dubbed by Curt Ackermann,
pretty unknown as an actor, but we all know his voice.

Or do you know Christian Brückner? Probably not. He is one of the most
frequently heard voice actors (not only films, also documentaries,
commercials, video games etc.), mainly for the rough ones as he is the
German voice of guys like Robert De Niro.

http://www.deutsche-synchronsprecher.de/

> In my circle of friends in Israel there was a young woman visiting for the
> summer. She was quite the character, had us in stitches almost
continuously, and
> this was heightened by her stronger-than-usual "Noo Yooak" accent (e.g.,
> [ka~pU~O~f"kU~O~fi~] for "cup of coffee", like Fran Drescher on the US
sitcom
> "The Nanny").

Fran Drescher. So I can imagine how this girl was/is. Unfortunatly so far I
have only seen and heard the dubbed Nanny.

> Once she told us that she could speak Yiddish, which delighted me,
> since I was curious about the New York Yiddish dialect. Someone,
surprised like
> I to hear a young, non-traditional American say she knew Yiddish, asked
her to
> give us a demonstration. She put on an a dialogue act complete with some
kind of
> weird accent and said *in Yiddishized English* things like "Git Shabbes,
Mrs.
> Fishel! How goes it, and what makes the mishpokhe?" ("Happy Sabbath, Mrs.
Fishel!
> How are you, and how is your family doing?"). People were loving, and I
asked
> her something in Yiddish to see if she could even understand (something in
the
> order of _Neyn. Mir veln visn tsu du redst prost mameloshn mit dayne
eygene._
> 'No. We want to know if you speak plain "Mother tongue" with your folks.')
Her
> eyes darted around for a few seconds, and then she said, "Yeah, yeah!
Mameloshn!"
> It ("mother tongue," a common name for Yiddish) was the only word she
seemed to
> have recognized. Later it turned out that she genuinely believed that
this
> Yinglish of hers was Yiddish ... Funny? Yes, but also a bit sad. Don't
you think?

It's a bit sad and it's very sad what else happened and happens, remembering
that here in Vienna some 200.000 jews lived and what we lost as today there
are only approxiamtely 10.000, and watching what's going on in the Middle
East at the moment and all the years before since Israel exists. But I hope
they find a way from "apartheid" to "samenleving" as in South Africa. I
think it's not too late.

This story about the Yinglish girl reminds me of a performance of David
Hasselhoff in about 1990 on NBC or CNN. Although from German (LS?) descent
he does not really speak German. But on this performance, I think it was one
of these American late-night-shows, he pretended he does and was talking
about some German phrases, what they are literally in English. Like to
suggest the phrase "to get into troubles" is in German expressed as "to come
on a/the dog". Or "You're having me on" is expressed in German as "you put
me on your arms". If he used these examples I should have recognised the
originals in German, as they are: "auf den Hund kommen", "auf den Arm
nehmen". But for Hasselhoff's examples I had no idea to which German
"Redewendung"/figure of speech he was referring. But I don't remember
exactly and maybe I was too stupid, because it's not easy if the German
original is not mentioned. And maybe Hasselhoff is really bilingual as this
page suggests: http://www.david-hasselhoff.com/ms_main.html

> As for your comprehension proficiency of Low Saxon, Karl-Heinz, well, I
think we
> are safe to assume you aren't "normal." ;-) And, yes, you are right.
These
> days there are lots of Low Saxon varieties with strong German influences,
and
> trying to understand an "authentic" variety can be difficult if you aren't
used
> to it. But knowing you, I'm sure you'd get the hang of it in no time if
you were
> given the opportunity.

I'm primarily interested to know it passively, so I'd liked to hear it more
often. I would hardly dare to speak it, but if I was a Northener I'd learn
and use it as often as possible.

Hawidere und Grüetzi,
Karl-Heinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language proficiency

Hi, Gabriele!

Not surprisingly perhaps, given what they say about brilliant minds and given
that we have outed ourselves as separated conjoined twins (a.k.a. _de
twievelhaften tweelden Tweeschen_), I've discovered the same about translating a
given text into more than one language.  Normally I wouldn't have tried it,
because I would have thought that it would promote mutual interference,
especially if these languages are relatively closely related.  Translating a
complex, technical text under time pressure, I discovered that the method you
described works very well, because, as you said, the translation process into the
next language is close to be done in your head by the time the first one is done.
 (I even found later that it works with unrelated languages.)  Furthermore, my
experience is that it saves some time, probably because you concentrate on one
sentence, passage or paragraph at a time, while you have to virtually reinvent
the wheel if you translate the entire thing separately.

And servus right back at ya. Karl-Heinz!

> I'd prefer performances in LS/LG
> with subtitles. Would make much sense, additionally combined with
> sreen-plays for download in internet would be a hit.

Absolutely!  I've thought so for a long time.  But, you see, especially in
Northern Germany, relevant people tend to be incapable or unwilling to think
outside the box or, if they do, to put their money where they assume there is no
significant market.

In actual fact, there is a fair bit of good Low Saxon literature, mostly in the
form of shortstories (besides poetry).  Most of it is never published, again
because of publishers' narrowmindedness.  Marlou Lessing
(http://www.numanto.de/), for instance, is a very good and daring prose writer
(besides a poet), and I am happy to say that the Freudenthal Society has
recognized this by awarding her the prize last year
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/plattewelt/freudenthal.htm).  Some of her writing
would lend itself to converting to short films.  

There is also a fair bit of good non-traditional Low Saxon poetry in Northern
Germany and the Eastern Netherlands.  Again, it tends to be published in
non-traditional ways, again because publishers tend to think that there is no
market for it, because they associate the language with old-time parochial
entertainment and thus help to keep it in this place, thereby perpetuating the
vicious cycle.  

When I served on the Freudenthal Prize jury in 2000, I was amazed about the high
quality of a good number of submissions.  Besides some pretty good poetry, I read
some very impressive shortstories, more than half of them from former East
Germany.  They would make great short films.  Alas, we had to pick 1-2 people for
the first prize, which was agony.  Also, the higher-quality pieces had some
flaws, nothing that a couple of editing rounds couldn't have fixed, but
"cleanliness" of writing was a selection criterion.  What I'm saying is that
there is a lot of talent out there and lots of writers who dare to break out into
new territories.  However, it's the publishers and their bean counters that
aren't interested.

> I suppose there are productions in the US and the UK as "Brave Heart" in
> Lallans and "Scots-ized" English, but we in the German-speaking countries
> only see but never hear them, because all these films are dubbed.

Oh, no, Karl-Heinz!  It's barely even Scottish English!  Most of it is English
with fake "Scottization," as far as I am concerned. There was definitely no Scots
there that I could discern.

> Hasselhoff

It's a Low Saxon name:

Hassel ["has=l]: hazel (G: Hasel ["ha:z at l])
Hoff [hOf]: farm, estate (G. Hof [ho:f])

Another American actor of Low Saxon descent is Eric Braeden (originally Hans Jörg
Gudegast, born in Breden near Kiel):
http://www.ericbraeden.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Braeden

Lately he has been helping to further and promote connections between North
Germans and Americans of North German background, including Low Saxon organizations.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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