LL-L "Languge varieties" 2006.02.05 (03) [D/E]

Sun Feb 5 23:23:08 UTC 2006

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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   L O W L A N D S - L * 05 February 2006 * Volume 03
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.04 (03) [D/E]

Assuming that Frisian is the Anglo-Saxon left on the European mainland
would in fact be assuming that Frisian is a Saxon dialect indeed.
But I think there wasn't something like Anglo-Saxon on the continent, the
Angles and Saxons were different peoples when they left for Britain,
together with the Jutes, and possibly some Frisians as well.
And I never knew that the Frisian dwelled as far South as Calais, I think
they only lived at the Northern part of the Dutch North Sea coast.
There were Ingvaeonic peoples living along the coast of Belgium, Zeeland
and Holland, but there's no need to call them Frisians.

What one has to bear in mind is that the so-called Old Frisian we know of,
comes from a much later period than Old Saxon or Old English, so we cannot
compare the historic-linguistic data that easily between Old Frisian and
the other old ingvaeonic languages.

Theo Homan writes that the entire population of Friesland was replaced by
a complety different people in the 9th and 10th centuries.
Very interesting, I'd like to know more about that!
Maybe this new people were the Saxons from Northern Germany from my
theory, who went to call themselves Frisians after the name of the area.

Ingmar

Karl-Heinz Lorenz schrieb:
>What about a theory, that Frisian is the rest of Anglo-Saxon on the
>continent. The Frisian settled the coastal regions from South of Calais up
>to Denmark without discontinuation as there is today. For me it is
>plausible with respect to commerce etc. if in the middle ages there were
>Anglo-Saxon speaking people on both sides of the Channel.

Theo Homan schreef:
>Archeologen weten dat in de huidige provincie
>Friesland in de loop van de 9e en 10e eeuw een
>volledige andere bevolking is komen wonen.
>Ik dacht dat onder meer Boele daarover gepubliceerd
>heeft.

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.03 (05) [D/E]

Welke argumenten draagt die Professor Haio Zimmermann eigenlijk aan voor
zijn theorie dat het Fries een Saksisch dialect is?
Ik heb even rondgegoogled met zijn naam maar geen inhoudelijk artikel
kunnen vinden. Daar ben ik heel benieuwd naar, dus als iemand weet waar ik
dit kan vinden: laat weten alstublieft!

What arguments does this Professor Haio Zimmermann have for his theory
that Frisian is a Saxon dialect?
I googled around with his name but couldn't find anything, and since I'd
really like to learn more about this, please let me know if you know where
to find this

Ingmar

>Piet Bult wrote:
>>Uut de Liwwadder kraante (grootste dagblad in Frieslaand NL):
>>Friese taal is een Saksisch dialect
>>
>>GRONINGEN - Het Fries is een SakÃ,sisch dialect. Professor Haio
Zimmermann,
>>directeur van het Nedersaksisch Instituut voor Historisch Kustonderzoek
in
>>Wilhelmshaven en hoogleraar in Hamburg, beweert dat in het Groninger
>>Museummagazine. Volgens Zimmermann ontÃ,Âstond er in de derde eeuw een
>>lacune
>>in het huidige Friesland en Groningen toen veel mensen daar wegtrokken.
De
>>Saksen die daar later kwamen wonen, noemde zich Friezen.
>>
>>Nieuw is de theorie niet, wel is die nu beter onderbouwd, meent
>Zimmermann.
>>Vroeger werd in Nederland het Fries heel belangrijk gevonden, maar
>>professor Heeroma, de toenmalige hoogleraar Nedersaksisch in Groningen,
>>heeft in 1950 een artikel geschreven waarin hij stelt dat het Fries een
>>Saksisch dialect is. Gezien de problemen die daarover in Nederland
>>ontstonden heeft hij dat maar Ã©Ã©n keer gezegd. Maar het is juist, want

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From: daniel prohaska <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

"From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.03 (05) [D/E]

What about a theory, that Frisian is the rest of Anglo-Saxon on the 
continent. The Frisian settled the coastal regions from South of Calais up 
to Denmark without discontinuation as there is today. For me it is plausible 
with respect to commerce etc. if in the middle ages there were Anglo-Saxon 
speaking people on both sides of the Channel.

Regards,

Karl-Heinz"

***

Dear Karl-Heinz,

There was a gap between the continental settlement area of West- and Est 
Frisia on the one hand and the settlement areas of North-Frisian which were 
established in two waves from East Frisia (the islands ca. 8th century and 
the continent ca. 11th and 12th centuries).

As far as I was able to find out there are enough indications to say that a 
small number of Frisians took part in the Germanic settlement of Britain, 
but otherwise I believe that they were southern neighbours of the people who 
left the continent to settle in Britain. Who far these groups were 
diversified linguistically is difficult to say. There are relatively early 
runic inscriptions showing specifically Frisian developments, so that 
linguistically Primitive English (pre-attested Old English) and Primitive 
Frisian were closely related, but distinct.

I do not believe that Frisian is "English-left-behind".

Best wishes,

Dan

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