LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.13 (03) [E/LS]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 13 February 2006 * Volume 03
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.12 (06)
>You have a whole in your pants. You still need to darn it. Do you have a
>whole in your pants?
Hmm, I don't think he would be too happy to have anyone darn the whole in
his pants... :-))
Gabriele Kahn
----------
From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.12 (05) [E]
Moi Rikus,
Ie schreven.
My mother was born in Gees, grandpa in Wachtum, My father was born in
Wachtum too.
Wachtum is close to Dalen, near Coevorden.
Does somebody know something of this older language(dialect) Where was it
spoken(probably also over the german border). Are there written sources?
Differences in languages:
The ancient language
Do haese een gat in dien hosen, dat meuse neug stoppen. Haas do een gat in
dien hosen?
Kaas(e) do mij eem de teller and schöttels angeben. Kuus do mij niet eem
helpen?
Do saase dunderdag naar de mark, wij lust gern weer ies een backen fissien
Wanneer gies do (giesto) weer ies hen dien hoesholdertien, do wause daor
toch nog ies hen.
Do döse niks anders as wat um de deur knooien.
Wiese mij eem helpen. Oh, waose mij helpen?
Zanddrents:
Ij hebt(i-short as in is and as in dutch je) een gat in de hosen, dat moej
neug stoppen.haj( of hadden) ij een gat in de hosen?
Kun ij mij eem de borden en de schöttels angeben. Haj mij niet eem helpen
kunnen?
Ij zult dunderdag naor de mark, wij lust gern weer ies een gebakken vissien
Wanneer goj (god'ij weer ies naor je hoesholstertie, ij wollen daor toch nog
ies hen
Ij doet niks anders as wat um de deur knooien.
Woj mij eem helpen. Oh, wollen ij mij helpen?
If someone can help me in one way or the other I would be very grateful.
Rikus
Arend Victorie schref,
Moi
As ik 't zo ies deurleze dan is 't dialect wat aij nog wel heurt in Z.O
Drenthe, 't zaandgedielte van oonze provicie.
Arend.
----------
From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.rub.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.12 (06)
Hello!
Ron wrote:
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Rikus
>
> You kindly shared a sample of a moribund or extinct:Low Saxon
> dialect, which I found very interesting and found at least in part
> more readily comprehensible from the angle of North Saxon dialects of
> Germany. Below I'll transliterate the into (1) German-style
> orthography (the full version), and then the same into (2)
> "Ooostersch" North Saxon using first Dutch-based spelling and the
> German-style spelling, besides German and English translation. Please
> correct whatever is incorrect. (I'm not sure if some of the <s> is /z/.)
>
>> Do haese een gat in dien hosen, dat meuse neug stoppen. Haas do een
>> gat in
>> dien hosen?
>
> (1) Do hässe een Gatt in dien Hosen. Dat mœse nœg stoppen.
> Haas do een Gatt in dien Hosen?
>
> (2) (Doe) hes(t) een (~ 'n) gat (~ lok) in dien buks (~ hoos'). Dat
> mós(t)
> (doe) nog stoppen. Hes(t) (doe) een (~ 'n) gat (~ lok) in dien buks
> (~ hoos')?
> (Du) hes(t) een (~ 'n) Gatt (~ Lock) in dien Büx (~ Hoos'). Dat
> muss(t)
> (du) noch stoppen. Hes(t) (du) een (~ 'n) Gatt (~ Lock) in dien Büx
> (~ Hoos')?
>
> Du hast ein Loch in der Hose. Das musst du noch stopfen. Hast du ein
> Loch in der Hose?
>
> You have a whole in your pants. You still need to darn it. Do you have
> a whole in your pants?
>
>> Kaas(e) do mij eem de teller and schöttels angeben. Kuus do mij niet eem
>> helpen?
>
> (1) Kaaß(e) do mej eem de Teller and Schöttels angäben? Kuuß do mej
> niet eem helpen?
>
> (2) Kans(t) (doe) mie maol even de töllers oen schöttels (~
> schötteln) geven
> (~ geben ~ doun)? Kunns(t) (doe) mie nich maol even helpen?
> Kanns(t) (du) mi maal även (~ äben) de Töllers un Schöttels (~
> Schötteln)
> gäven (~ gäben ~ doon)? Kunns(t) (du) mi nich maal även (~ äben)
> helpen?
>
> Kannst du mir mal eben die Teller und Schüsseln reichen? Könntest du
> mir nich mal eben helfen?
>
> Would you mind handing me the plates and bowls? Couldn't you help
> me for a bit?
>
>> Do saase dunderdag naar de mark, wij lust gern weer ies een backen
>> fissien
>
> (1) Do sasse Dünderdag na de Mark. Wej lüst gern weer ies een backen
> Fissien.
>
> (2) Du s(ch)as(t) dunnersdag nao'n maek(t). Wie hebt maol wedder 'n
> smacht óp bakken(en) fisch (~ bakfisch).
> Du s(ch)as(t) Dünnersdag na'n Mark(t). Wi hebbt maal wedder 'n
> Smacht up backen(en) Fisch (~ Backfisch).
>
> Du sollst Donnersdag auf den Markt. Wir haben mal wieder Appetit auf
> gebackenen Fisch (~ Backfisch).
>
> How about going to the market (for us) on Thursday! We're feeling
> like having baked (~ broiled) fish.
>
> That old dialect seems rather North Saxon to me, Rikus, less
> Drenthe-like.
It actually sounded very much Westphalian to me. Especially because of
the form "kaas" instead
of "kanst". This is also the normal form in Westphalian. Also the
dialect uses "ies" as a kind
of modal particle. This is also true of Westphalian. So, I actually had
the feeling that it
is close to Westphalian.
Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.rub.de
----------
From: Rikus Kiers <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.12 (06)
Beste Theo (and Ron),
A few remarks about your reaction on my question about my parents lanquage.
1 Your Schoonebeekers overdid about the lanquages in Klazienaveen and
Nieuw-Amsterdam.
In general everybody from whatever part of Drenthe understands every drents
dialect.
2 I did not know about two schoonebeker Dialects. Interesting!
3 Schoonebeek was before 1850 geographicaly more a part of german influence.
Het Olde Lantschap"" consists of the parts which have sand as its base. In
former times Drenthe could only be reached through Coevorden( near
Schoonebeek), Meppel and Groningen. The line
Emmen-Erm-Wachtum-Dalen -Coevorden separated the moors(south-east of the
line from the Olde Lantschap.
These Moors are brought into culture seriously after 1850 South of the Moors
Schoonebeek was situated. It was only to reach via Germany and Coevorden.
Nieuw-Amsterdam exists from 1850 and so is Klazienaveen, as far as I know. I
don't know exactly the language which is spoken overthere, but it must be a
mixture of Sand-Drents, south-west drents, maybe with some groningse and
niedersachsische influences. Those languages in the Moors were built up by
th influence of the motherlanguages of the workers who came from everywhere.
But Schoonebeek was not totally isolated. Be it that to reachöther parts of
Drenthe they had to walk via Coevorden.Geneological research along many
lines in my family show that one of the oldest persons known as one of my
fathren came around 1660 from Germany ,which not even existed in that time
as a nation to Wachtum in Drenthe Around 1920 my aunt married a man from
Schoonebeek, who originally came from Germany. And around 1880 an uncle of
my mother married to a a girl from Schoonebeek.
4 From my genealogical research I derive that before 1849 their existed in
practise no borders between the later german and dutch part of Sachsenland.
After The end of Napoleon around 1850 the first restrictions started. In
1849 in Holland they made a Vreemdelingenwet to prevent german streams of
people to enter the dutch areas. We can assume that it took decennia before
all the familyconnections slowed down. In those times we must remember that
most marriages were through weddingparties and "spiensters", girls who went
to relatives to spin the wool.
5 So Ron's Idea that there may be is a strong relation to the german part of
Sachsenland looks right
7 The wagen in stead of the Beer answers one of my questions I had since I
was a child
6Question? Can somebody show me the way to maps where I can find
dialect/languageareas of niedersassisch and nord sassisch. If possible with
historical notes?
Thanks Theo and Ron for your reactions. I hope to get some more information.
Gr.
Rikus Kiers
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
Jan:
> It actually sounded very much Westphalian to me.
Good point, Jan! And that would be consistent with the geography as well,
wouldn't it. As our Arend says above about southeastern Drenthe:
> As ik 't zo ies deurleze dan is 't dialect wat aij nog wel heurt in Z.O
> Drenthe, 't zaandgedielte van oonze provicie.
(I take it our relatives on the Netherlands side use _zand ..._ ("sand ...")
where on the German side we use _Geest..._ in reference to areas of sandy
heath soil.)
Rikus, I generally agree with your historical overview and thank you for
pointing out that the actual division (and consequent sociopolitical
estrangement) within the Saxon area (not talking about today's German state
of Saxony) came about relatively recently, as also Germany became an
official nation fairly recently.
You are probably right in assuming that the split began to happen in earnest
after the French occupation. However, I understand that considerable
numbers of people kept migrating and marrying back and forth across the
border even after that and that much of this was seen as a local matter
rather than as an international one. (I understand that this applies to the
Danish-German border as well, not to mention the Austrian-German border,
where for instance a certain Austrian managed to rule Germany and ... ah,
well!). I have heard about maids, farmhands etc. from Germany seeking
employment in the Netherlands and then settling there as late as the first
half of the 20th century. Add to this a previous, fairly long history of
Dutch and "Flemish" immigration to Germany and to eastern areas that were
once under German rule. Especially in the border regions you can tell by
surnames alone that people had married back and forth. (A very famous one
is, of course, Beethoven.)
Furthermore, in the course of the Romantic Movement of the 19th century,
writers, scholars and language activists of Belgium, the Netherlands and
Germany (from the border all the way to Kaliningrad) were in close touch
with each other, learned each other's languages and wrote a lot about our
common heritage and our linguistic and cultural continuum, including
anthologies and translations of regional literature. Unfortunately, much of
this was later exploited in Nazi propaganda designed to recruit Belgian and
Dutch sympathizers and collaborators in preparation of German occupation, a
move that until now has done damage to the vision of the 19th century, a
vision that had been, by and large, one of linguistic and cultural relations
rather than a nationalistic one.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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