LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.26 (01) [E]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 26 February 2006 * Volume 01
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.25 (02) [E]
Beste Luc en Roger,
From: Luc Hellinckx
Beste Roger,
"A liep dwèès over 't veld"
could be said of somebody who is willfully strolling the fields.
It would NOT mean however that he's obliquely crossing that field. In the
latter case, we'd use the word /nus/ (/noes/ in some Flemish dialects):
"A liep dàà nus da land over"
/nus/ coincides with Dutch "schuin, scheef" and the etymology is still
quite unclear. In short, Dutch "dwars" always refers to something moving at
right angles to another direction, whereas /nus/ is related to diagonal
motion.
"V: Ofnoezen", means to avoid a detour, to take a short cut, especially a
shorter cut on the corners of a field (to cut off the angle). And also lit.
: to cut off a piece of fabric. Also to saw a piece of wood, V: "e stikjen
hout ofnoezen".
On a sidenote: If we want to describe how disorderly/chaotic/oblique
something is, we'll use the idiom "schots en scheef".
E: "oblique, leaning over" = Western Flemish "schots en scheef" ≠ "
wistercapeêle", meaning disorderly and chaotic"(E: higgledypiggledy)
groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene
----------
From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.25 (02) [E]
Hello Luc,
Thanks for your additional note.
As a matter of fact the word /nuës/ is als known in my dialect. It's a
synonym of "te griest". I am, however, under the impression that it tends to
be used less often these days. I couldn't find an explanation either for
this word. I have a feeling that it is an umlaut product of a form with old
Germanic au but cannot think of any word that might be related.
And of course, 'schots en scheef' is also a common expression.
Kind regards,
Roger Hondshoven
----------
From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.25 (02) [E]
At 07:51 PM 02/25/06 -0800, Luc Hellinckx wrote:
>Here in West-Brabant, the situation is more or less the same, /dwèès/
>always means "stubborn, contrary"; but it can also be used as an adverb,
>for example:
>
>"A liep dwèès over 't veld"
>
>could be said of somebody who is willfully strolling the fields.
>It would NOT mean however that he's obliquely crossing that field. In the
>latter case, we'd use the word /nus/ (/noes/ in some Flemish dialects):
>etc.
What about English "divers" now "diverse"? Any possible link here?
Ed Alexander
Ph.D. in Folk Etymology
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Hi, Ed!
> What about English "divers" now "diverse"? Any possible link here?
Nice try, but apparently no cigar, I'm afraid. According to the _Oxford
English Dictionary_, "divers" (now with main stress on the first syllable,
earlier on the second) comes from Old French _divers_ ~ _diviers_ (feminine
_diverse_ ~ _divierse_), related to Latin _divers-_ (_diversus_ etc.),
originally "turned different ways," then 'unlike', 'different', 'separate',
'contrary'. In English it acquired the meanings 'perverse', and the like,
which, yes, makes it semantically very much related to archaic native
"twart."
Is there a Romance-Germanic link? We'd first have to show that Romance
_di-_ consistently corresponds to Germanic _th(V)-_ and Romance _di+v..._
consistently corresponds to Germanic _thw-_. This may be a tall order. For
one thing, there aren't all that many Germanic words of that type.
Hmmm ... By the same token, take a look at Old English _þwítan_ (_þwát_,
_þwiten_) 'to cut (off)', which gave archaic Modern English "to thwite" 'to
cut (down/away)', 'to whittle', 'to shape by paring'. In Old Norse it
corresponds to _þveita_ 'small ax', _þvita_ 'type of ax', _þveit(i)_ 'land
division', 'parcel of land'. And, yes, "whittle" is a form of "thwittle"
('whittling knife', 'to whittle'), assumedly a diminutive form. Note also
that Scots has derived _hwite_, _white_, _quhyte_ and _fite_ from Old
English _þwítan_. (So there's the old _þw-_ ~ _kw-_ thing again.) This
makes you (well, me) wonder if there is a connection with Latin _di+vid-_
(_dividere_) 'to divide'.
If there's something to your hunch, Ed, then we'd also be led to assume a
connection between "thwart" (~ _dwar(+s)_ ~ _dwer(+s)_) and Romance
_di+vert-_ (> English "divert"), cf. Latin _divertere_ 'to turn in different
directions', 'to turn out of the way', which apparently has been fused with
Latin _dēvertere_ 'to turn aside'. The Romance root here is _vert-_ (Latin
_vertere_) 'to turn' (> English "to vert").
There may be an earlier root: *_ver-_, and I wonder if *_vēr_ (> Italian
_(prima-)vera_, English "ver(e)") 'early part of the warm season'
'springtime' (when the year and weather turn) is related to it (cf.
"vernal").
Note also (French _virer_ >) English "to veer" and archaic "to vire" 'to
turn'.
So, Ed, as I go along on your tentative garden path I begin wondering if you
won't get your cigar after all -- and that would be a big, old Cuban one of
the the best order. ;-)
Going out on a limb even further, this makes me wonder about Germanic
*_kēr-_ 'turn', 'to turn', namely if an old _-w-_ came to be elided (as e.g.
in _kom-_ ≠ _kwam-_ 'come' ≠ 'came') [cf. Low Saxon _keyr_, _keyren_
(<K(i)ehr>, <k(i)ehrn>), Dutch _keer_, _keren_, German _kehren_, Old Saxon
_kērian_, Old German _kēran_].
I suppose that either the plot is thickening or the limb is bending ...
Luc:
> E: "oblique, leaning over" = Western Flemish "schots en scheef" ≠ "
> wistercapeêle",
> meaning disorderly and chaotic"(E: higgledypiggledy)
Can it also mean 'ramshackle'?
What's the etymology of this _schots_?
I suppose the Low Saxon nominal equivalent is _kuddel-muddel_
(<Kuddelmuddel>), which is used in certain Missingsch varieties as well. I
assume the second part is related to English "muddle." In North Saxon, a
messy, chaotic place or event may also be called _moel_ (<Mœhl>, <Möhl>),
literally "mill". (Does this mean that old-time mills where messy and
topsy-turvy? Perhaps, what with all the farmers brining in their bags of
grain and the miller not keeping track of which bag belongs to whom ... also
all the cheating that reportedly went on in many mills ...)
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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