LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.28 (02) [E/LS]
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Tue Feb 28 16:52:25 UTC 2006
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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28 February 2006 * Volume 02
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.26 (01) [E]
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> Luc:
>
>> E: "oblique, leaning over" = Western Flemish "schots en scheef" ≠
>> " wistercapeêle",
>> meaning disorderly and chaotic"(E: higgledypiggledy)
>
> Can it also mean 'ramshackle'?
>
> What's the etymology of this _schots_?
>
> I suppose the Low Saxon nominal equivalent is _kuddel-muddel_
> (<Kuddelmuddel>), which is used in certain Missingsch varieties as
> well. I assume the second part is related to English "muddle." In
> North Saxon, a messy, chaotic place or event may also be called
> _moel_ (<Mœhl>, <Möhl>), literally "mill". (Does this mean that
> old-time mills where messy and topsy-turvy? Perhaps, what with all
> the farmers brining in their bags of grain and the miller not
> keeping track of which bag belongs to whom ... also all the
> cheating that reportedly went on in many mills ...)
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Ramshackle is the word i was looking for! (didn't know it) We use the
expression almost always when talking about old or poorlooking
buildings.
-Kijk noa dad huus, 't stoa heêl schots en scheêf, 't is ol plak en
stak.
The etymology of this "schots" is mentionned unknown in the "Vandale"
dictionnary .
The meaning differs from strange, to weird, to arrogant, to funny .
"Scheef" means crooked.
Could muddle and mill (moel) be related here?
-V: mulder is a miller
-V: mul = dust / grinded corn of lower quality / something that is
broken to pieces, smashed or shattered.
-V: mulhoek = a place where dust is gathered together, and where the
broom stands.
-V:mullegewin = wages of a miller (if the wages are paid in nature
(flour) it is called "multer"
-V:mullen = dust flying around
groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Sorry, folks. This one ran away before I finished it. This is the real
edition.
Thanks, Luc.
> schots en scheêf
Any possible link with "Scottish"?
But wait! There's more! The root may be related to what in German is
_Schutt_ 'rubble', '(large) debris'. (This word must have ended with _-d_,
for otherwise it would have become *_Schutz_ or *_Schuss_.) It is used with
large items, typically with buildings. In North Saxon it's _gruus_ (usually
in the phrase _in gruus un muus_ 'in/to pieces/bits'). It is related to Old
Saxon _skud_ with the same meaning. Dutch has _puin_, but I'm not sure if
it has the same semantic range. Old Saxon has _mulli_ and _gimulli_
(related to "muddle"?). So, now I suspect that _schot-_ and _Schutt_ are
related to German _schütteln_, Low Saxon _schüddeln_ and Dutch _schudden_
'to shake' and to German _schütten_ and Low Saxon _schüdden_ 'to pour', 'to
dump'. Old Saxon has _skuddian_ for 'to shake' and _skuddinga_ for
'dump(ing)' (noun). Old Low Franconian has _skuten_ for 'to shake'. Old
English has _scydd_ ([SYd]) for 'dump'. Old Frisian has _skedda_ 'to shake_
and _skeddinge_ ~ _skettene_ 'dump'.
Hmm ... and this makes me wonder about English "shot" in the phrase
"{something} is shot" meaning that something is spoilt or destroyed. I used
to think that it was the past participial form of "to shoot" (as also in the
sense of Australian/New Zealand "shot" meaning 'drunk', 'wasted'). But now
I'm wondering if it's related to German _Schutt_. Also, "schot" can refer
to a sick ewe or to any sheep or part of a sheep herd that is considered
waste. "Ready to be shot dead" or _Schutt_ = "disposable left-over"?
> Could muddle and mill (moel) be related here?
I doubt it. Middle English supposedly got it from Middle Dutch _moddelen_
'to mess with mud', but I'm wondering if the source is really Middle Saxon
_muddel(e)n_ with the same meaning and the extense 'to make a mess', 'to
muddle'.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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