LL-L "Phonology" 2006.01.26 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

26 January 2006 * Volume 02
=======================================================================

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L Language Varieties

Hi Ron

You wrote:

"I
rather suspect that <s> was pronounced not as an
alveo-palatal as it is
in
Modern German (also in Modern English) but a bit
farther back, somewhat
closer to /S/ (sh), namely as it occurs extensively
(i.e. in many
dialects)
in languages that have no /s/ - /S/ opposition.
Examples are Dutch,
Danish,
Finnish, Castilian (Spanish) and Greek.  Furthermore,
I suspect that
what
are now alveolar consonants in German were pronounced
as alveo-dentals
in
Old German, as they are in most Romance languages and,
I'm told, in
many
Insular Celtic varieties.  This would cause the High
German shift _t-_
/
_tt_ to produce [ts] and _-t-_ to produce [s].  Thus
there were two
kinds of
"s": alveolar (<z>) and alveo-dental <z̢> (both
voiceless)."

I'm a bit confused with what you're writing here. Are
you saying:

<s> is palato-alveolar (i.e. further back than current
German s)
<z> is alveolar [s]
<z(curly)> is alveo-dental as currently in German?

I can't comment on this until I'm sure what you're
saying, but would like to... :)

I've often had thoughts about the 'alveolar' series of
consonants in Germanic languages.

dh, d and t in Indo-European developed into d, t and T
in Germanic. In Estuary and London English initial d
and t are not produced in the same place: my d being
alveolar and my t being alveo-dental. This means also
that my tongue contact for d is apical and that for t
is laminal. Due to the greater tongue area in contact
with the roof of the mouth for t this has led to a
'fuzzier' release of the tongue leading to an
affricate. I've kind of assumed that this difference
could date to Indo-European consonants, in that
Indo-European d/t were alveo-dental and dh was
alveolar meaning that Germanic t/T were alveo-dental
and d alveolar. This is of course purely hypothesis,
but would also explain German affrication from a
phonetic point of view.

The resulting fricated t in German would thus be
alveo-dental. The old s belonged to the original set
of Germanic fricatives which could be phonemically
voiced or unvoiced depending on position, whereas this
new fricative having developed from t was purely
unvoiced. Maybe the old s became mainly voiced to
differentiate it from this new s which was similar
(though not identical), although saying this, I think
in Southern German it's merged with 'ss' to be
voiceless in all positions...

But I like you're idea about pronouncing the s's
differently for a recording of Old German.

Gary

http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html

-----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Gary.  That's interesting information.

However, even if we set aside the prehistory, alone the fact that languages 
without /S/ (sh) tend to pronounce /s/ as an apico-alveolar (as in 
Castilian, Dutch, Greek, Finnish, etc.) because they have no need to 
differentiate /s/ and /S/, is a fairly good clue that this happened in Old 
High German also, possibly also in Old Frisian, Old Saxon and Old Low 
Franconian.  Since Germanic *_-tt-_ came to be written <zz> in Old German 
and has become dento-alveolar <ss> and <ß> in Modern German it seems 
reasonable to me to hypothesize that <-s> was pronounced as an 
apico-alveolar and non-affricate <-z> was pronounced as a dento-alveolar.

Furthermore, we must assume that the fricative represented by <z> developed 
from the affricate also represented by <z>; hence e.g. (phonetics 
tentative),

*tunga > tsunga (<zunga>) ["ts_hUN(g)a]  'tongue'
*katta > katsa (<kazza>) ["k_hats_ha] 'cat'

*water > *watser > wasser (<wazzer>) ["waser] 'water'
*hwat > *hwats > (h)was (<(h)waz>) [(x)was] 'what'

*dougen > tougen (<tougen>) ["dOUgen] 'to be (worth(y of)'
*þouwōn > touwōn (<touwon>) ["t_hOUwo:n] 'to thaw'
*tougen > *tsougen (<zougen>) ["t_hOUgen] 'to show'
*sougen > sougen (<sougen>) ["s_aOUgen] 'to suckle', 'to breastfeed'

cf. Mod. Germ.: taugen, tauen, zäugen, säugen
cf. Old Saxon: dugan, douan, thewian, tōgian, sōgian
cf. Mod. L. Saxon: dugen, douen ~ doyen, tuygen, soygen

So assumedly we have a distinction between apical [s_a] and dento-alveolar 
[s] in Old German; e.g.,

<sehs> [s_aECs_a] 'six' (OS sehs)
<skiozan> ["s_ak_hiOsan] 'to shoot' (OS skiotan)
<spriozan> ["s_aprIOsan] 'to sprout' (sprūtan)
<stiuz> [s_at_hIUs] 'buttocks'
<sus> [s_aU_s_a] 'thus'
<susen> ["s_au:z_aen] 'to sough'
<suuarz> [s_awarts] 'black' (OS suuart)
<suueiz> [s_awEIs] 'sweat' (OS suuēt)
<suueizig> ["s_wEIsi:g] 'sweaty' (OS suuētig)
<suuozi> ["s_awUOsI] 'sweet' (OS suuōti)
<segansa> ["s_aEgans_a] 'scythe' (OS segisna)
<sahso> ["s_axs_O] 'Saxon' (OS sahso)
<zagunsunu> ["tsagu:ns_aUnU] 'son of a hore'
<zeisala> ["tsEIs_aala] 'thistle'
<zeso> ["tsEs_aO] 'righthand ...'
<zifliozan> [ts_hI"flIOsan] 'to dissolve'
<zilazan> [ts_hI"la:san] 'to melt', 'to remit' (OS telātan)
<zundistil> ["tsu:ndIs_atIl] 'milk thistle'
<sloz> [s_alOs] 'lock' (OS slot)

One school of thought assumes that in Old Castilian /s/ was apical ([s_a], 
as it is now), that what was written <c>, <z> and <ç> started as dental 
[ts], then developed into dental [s] and then into interdental [T], while in 
Andalusian and American Spanish all of them merged as [s].  So this is not 
all that diffeent.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================