LL-L "Etymology" 2006.01.30 (05) [E]

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 30 January 2006 * Volume 05
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From: Rikus Kiers <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.01.30 (067) [E]

Hi folks,
About Talamaska:

Ron, your reaction on Jacqueline brought me a few thoughts(as a layman).
'Tala' and dutch 'dal' (valley) are pretty close.
In dutch Lanquage means 'taal'. Also 'vertalen' vertalen means 'translate'
nowadays
'Vertellen'means to tell, to inform. Vertellen and vertalen look like and
are undoubtedly related.
'Maska': in dutch a mask is a 'Masker': is something with which you hide
your face. In some dutch and german accents -er is often pronounced as aa.
Words which have to do with a strong emotion are kept in mind easily, and
maybe are communicated a lot. Could there be earlier input from Germanic
into roman language, which later on returned as 'Mascara',etc?

By the way, my wife often calls a woman who uses much to much mascara a
'monster' In this way also hiding your real face still causes an exclamation
which denotes frightening.
The subject is relevant to me . I just posted last week a poem I made in
Drents . It is titled : Boeskerl which means B(eu)se Kerl(german) , which
probably means devil or evil one. You can find it this or next week on
www.drentsetaol.nl under the label: schrief 't es op- gedichten

Greetings,

 Rikus Kiers

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From: Heather Rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.01.30 (04) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>
Please bear in mind that another meaning of _talamaska_ is 'larva'.<

I looked up Maske and found Larve ( meaning also a face mask)
I looked up Larve and found Bök
I looked up Bök and found also Böker or Böög  westdeutsch  oberdeutsch
Larve, Spukgestalt

so at least I now know where BOGEYman comes from !

I also found ( Sprach Brockhaus)   Talar  - langes Obergewand

Someone who dresses up in a floor length dress/costume to scare someone/ to
disguise themselves??????

Just a suggestion?

Heather

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot, Riekus and Heather.  Those are all very interesting, certainly 
the semantic connections.

As to the actual derivation of Old German _talamaska_, again, bear in mind 
that the following where the phonological shifts that had taken place in 
German already at that time:

t > ts ~ s
   tiid > tsiid <zît> (> Zeit) 'time'
   taal > tsaal <zâl> (> Zahl) 'number'
   (ir)tallen > (ir)zellen (> (er)zählen) 'tell' ('count' & 'account')
   katta > katsa <kazza> (> Katze) 'cat'
   water > waser <wazzer> (> Wasser) 'water'

d > t
   daal > taal <tâl> (> Tal) 'valley'
   middi > mitti (> Mitte) 'middle'
   word > wort (> Wort) 'word'

þ/ð- > d-
   ðuu > duu <dû> (> du) 'thou'
   beiðe > beide (> beide) 'both'
   ðrii > drii <drî> (> drei) 'three'

This _tala-_ must therefore come from _dala-_, most likely 'valley'.  If 'to 
tell' were involved we'd have <z-> (ts-).

Again, a cognate of 'masque' had not yet entered the language (from Arabic 
via Italian and/or French).  The Old German words for 'masque' are _grim-_, 
_grîmo_, _hagubart_ and _skema_.

German _Talar_ comes from Latin _talaris_ (_tālāris_), but it entered the 
language in the 16th century, by which time the above-mentioned shifts had 
already been completed and new foreign loans retained their _t-_.  (Had it 
entered the language before the shifts took place, it would now probably be 
*_Zaller_, with main stress on the initial syllable, while _Talar_ has the 
main stress on the second syllable.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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