LL-L 'History' 2006.07.12 (02) [E]
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Wed Jul 12 14:41:13 UTC 2006
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 12 July 2006 * Volume 02
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From: 'Scat' <Scat at cfl.rr.com>
Subject: -L 'Anniversary' 2006.07.11 (09) [E]
I thought that German was a chocolate maker who made German's chocolate. I
recall
buying some decades ago. He came out with German's chocolate cake for
advertising.
I have seen several recipes for German's chocolate cake.
Scott Catledge
----------
From: Heather Rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: -L 'Anniversary' 2006.07.11 (09) [E]
Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Why all those things are exactly Dutch? <
What is interesting too is that what isn't ascribed to the Dutch is called
'French........" French pox French letters etc etc
Whoever happened to be the most recent enemy in the 18th & 19th
centuries???????
Dutch barn - barn with no walls just a roof
Dutch auction - the reverse of a normal auction where a very high price is
set to start with and it comes down step by step. The first person to
interject, buys at that price
Dutch courage - a drink to bolster one's nerves - to give you dutch
courage
etc
Heather
----------
From: 'Hugo Zweep' <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: -L 'Anniversary' 2006.07.11 (09) [E]
Ben
A Dutch auction is where the auctioneer starts with a high price and
decreases that price until one of the particpants accepts the price being
offered. This is the opposite of the traditional English type auction where
the auctioneer starts with a low price and leaves it to the participants to
raise what they offer.
I don't know how far back the Dutch auction goes but I did see it as a small
boy and clearly remember the auction room in Winschoten, prov. Groningen, in
1948 where farm produce was being sold by this method.
Then, wouldn't you know, I grew up in Australia and became an auctioneer for
a while of real estate by the English method. Often thought how I'd like to
do a Dutch auction but the idea was too strange to find acceptance.
Hugo Zweep
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From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.11 (04) [E]
> From: Obiter Dictum <obiterdictum at mail.ru>
> Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.11 (01) [E]
>
> Theo Homan wrote:
> > weird people, those dutchmen.
>
> That beats the Dutch, actually :).
> And sounds suggestive.
> To me, it suggested the idea of asking the Lowlanders for plausible clues
> to this enigma: why on earth English has so many idioms related to "Dutch"?
> Forget for the moment Irish stews, Scotch fiddles, Welsh groins, or German
> silver and French letters. Just go Dutch.
>
> Here’s my list:
>
> Dutch auction (is the Chinese auction “English†in Holland?)
> Dutch bargain
> Dutch barn
> Dutch cap
> Dutch cheese
> Dutch clover
> Dutch courage
> Dutch date
> Dutch defence
> Dutch doll
> Dutch door
> dutchman (used to conceal faulty construction)
> Dutchman’s breeches
> Dutchman’s pipe
> Dutch elm disease
> Dutch feast
> flying Duchman
> Dutch hoe
> Dutch interior (must be that of a gypsy caravan after it capsized)
> Dutch leave
> Dutch lunch
> Dutch metal
> Dutch oven
> Dutch pink
> Dutch reckoning
> Dutch roll
> Dutch treat
> Dutch uncle
> Dutch widow
> Dutch wife
>
> I’m a Dutchman if I know any more ;)
> Ek heb hier iets gevonden (gevinden? gevunden?):
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa\?A2=ind0309D&L=lowlands-l&P=R10
>22 En de andere?
>
> Why all those things are exactly Dutch?
> I vaguely remember one explanation I read years and years ago: shiploads of
> arrogant Dutch courtiers, their servants and knechten followed William of
> Orange across the Ditch to swagger around London. True?
That would be one - partial - explanation. What I've always taken as the
explanation is the imperial competition between Great Britain and the
Netherlands for an extended period following the collapse of the Hapsburg
rule in Holland and Belgium. And since the Dutch were the competitors of the
British, some nasty traits were unfairly attributed to them.
Since the British won a fair number of those contests, and won the overall
contest, the expressions remained.
There are also the characteristics that the various forms of the Calvinist
church permitted, that I've found get attributed randomly to the Dutch.
Certainly, I've never encountered those characteristics myself among most of
the Dutch I've met, let alone my Dutch relations. But then, I've never been
to the Netherlands, and a number of the Dutch I've met have been southerners
- Catholics.
That's my explanation.
Wesley Parish
----------
From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.11 (04) [E]
> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.10 (02) [E]
>
> From: Wesley Parish
> Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.09 (03) [E]
>
> > Canute (Knut) is also sometimes refered to as "The Great", and he was
> > king of England for a while.
>
> That's the arrogance of the Pommies! Any foreigner who's basically
> walked into a job as their king, and isn't actively disliked, gets the star
> treatment. E.g., Queen Victoria's worship of the dead Prince Albert... ;)
>
> If you read what I wrote carefully, I said "King of England" not "English
> King". That said, as a Dane, he spoke a language mutually intelligible with
> the English of the time, and was recognised as king by Saxon and Dane
> alike.
>
> As for claiming any successful foreigners as our "one of our own", that's a
> bit rich coming from an Australian - or did you take out a patent on
> multiculturalism?!!
>
> Paul Finlow-Bates
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: History
>
> Wesley,
>
> Far be it from me to fan a flare-up between you and Paul, but I have to
> admit that I didn't quite get that "arrogance" thing. Now I think you
> meant it sarcastically, namely the opposite of what you said, meaning
> "contrary to common allegations of arrogance and exclusivity," and I think
> so because of your smiley. Am I on to something? Is my penny just
> extra-slow in dropping?
>
> Paul,
>
> Since one of my (several) feet is planted (and has taken roots) in
> Australia and I'm thus a fellow-ANZACian and a fellow-Commonwealthian, I
> think I am permitted to say in Wesley's "defense" that he's a New
> Zealander. And we adore him anyway. ;-)
>
> Cheerio!
>
> Reinhard/Ron
I was joking. I am sorry if it came across as snarkey. It seems to be a
problem with the Commonwealth settler states (in my experience) - the only
good citizens we have are those we either export or import. It's the
opposite of "arrogance", and gets embarrassing.
And yes, I was being somewhat sarcastic about Prince Albert. If Queen
Victoria hadn't had such a good propaganda corps, her life-long public
adoration of her dead husband would've made her a laughing-stock.
Wesley Parish
----------
From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.11 (10) [E/German]
From: Arthur Jones
Subject: LL-L 'Anniversary' 2006.11.07 [E] {OFr}
This is the Strassburg Oath in the Frankish Germanic spoken by them:
"In Godes minna ind in thes christianes folches ind unser bedhero gealtnissi, fon
thesemo dage frammordes, so fram so mir Got gewizci indi madh furgibit, so haldih
tesan minan bruodher, soso man mit rehtu sinan bruodher scal, in thiu, thaz er
mig sosoma duo; indi mit Ludheren in nohheiniu thing ne gegango, the minan willen
imo ce scadhen werhen."
Then, the subjects of those two kings took this oath, first in lingua romana,
then in lingua teudisca:
"Oba Karl then eid then, er sineno bruodher Ludhuwige gesuor, geleistit, indi
Ludhuwig min herro then er imo gesuor, forbrihchit, obih ina es irwenden ne mag,
noh ih no thero nohhein then ih es irwended mag, widhar Karle imo ce follusti ne
wirdhic."
Met vriendelijke groeten,
Arthur
I'm amazed at how much I can read easily, and I can work much of the remainder
out without too much trouble!
Paul Finlow-Bates
----------
From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.11 (01) [E]
From: R. F. Hahn
Subject: History
..I think I am permitted to say in Wesley's "defense" that he's a New
Zealander. .....
Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron
Ah, well, he'll know what I was getting at then;
Q: What (in Australia) is the definition of "Australasian"?
A: A successful New Zealander
Paul :)
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History
Hello!
Paul (above):
> I'm amazed at how much I can read easily, and I can work much of the
> remainder out without too much trouble!
It helps to sound it out (even if only in your head), doesn't it, Paul?
As for words with "Dutch," there isn't anything negative I can think of in Low
Saxon dialects of Germany. Below is what I wrote about this a while back.
Besides what I wrote then, there is also a type of sailing vessel that is called
_Hollanner_ (as in "The Flying Dutchman").
***
L O W L A N D S - L * 24.APR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
We have on occasion talked about historical "Dutch" (including Flemish,
Zeelandic, Brabantish and Westerlauwer Frisian?) immigration to what is now
Germany, with particular concentrations of "Dutch" immigrants in what are
now Eastern Germany, Northern Poland and Kaliningrad (German Königsberg, a
Russian-administered enclave not contiguous with Russia proper). Perceived
salient features and historical contributions and roles of these "Dutch"
settlers seem to be nicely reflected in the meanings of the word _Hollender_
~ _Hollander_ ("Hollander," "Dutch") in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects
of Germany:
_Hollender_ (<Hollänner>) ~ _Hollander_ (<Hollanner>):
(1) person of, from or with ancestry in Dutch-speaking areas
(2) tenant dairy farmer (mostly in Mecklenburg and Pomerania)
(3) Dutch-style windmill
(4) wooden skate with a metal gliding edge
(5) Dutch-style clog (wooden shoe) -- in some dialects also called _klomp_
or _klump_ (< Dutch _klomp_), as opposed to "indigenous" _hulten Tüffel_ ~
_holten Tüffel_ ("wooden slipper") with a leather upper, surviving in the
form of Scandinavian clogs
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
P.S.: In some dialects a person can also be called _Hollandsman_
(<Hollandsmann>). The female equivalent tends to be _Hollendsch(e)_
(<Holländsch(e)>) ~ _Hollandsch(e)_ (<Hollandsch(e)>).
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