LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.24 (07) [A/E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 24 July 2006 * Volume 07
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From: Obiter Dictum <obiterdictum at mail.ru>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.07.21 (01) [E]

Dagse almal:)

Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong het geskryf:
>
> When you are comfortable with a language
> it does not demand your attention,
> it does not take any effort to decode it
> and so it becomes like background music. []...
> That was a real odd awareness.
> Also, I dream in both Dutch and English,
> but become only aware what language
it is when a character in the dream uses other
> than those two. Funny stuff those languages.
>
> Leslie Decker het geskryf:
>
> I was once flying on KLM from Amsterdam
> to somewhere in the states, and the flight attendant
> starts all of her normal announcements in Dutch.
> I listen to them half-heartedly. About five minutes later,
> more announcements come on. I remember thinking,
> "Didn't they just say this?" It took me about ten seconds
> to realize that this was the English version of what had just
> been said in Dutch!
>
That beats the Dutch. No, the Dutch beat everybody :) In this sort of language
proficiency.
Yes there are bilingual South Africans, Swiss, Belgians, French Canadians and US
Hispanics.
But the Dutch... I always suspected that they would be first.
The Dutch language aptitude is amazing.
My own crude statistic:
Ten out of each ten Dutch people I ever happened to meet spoke better English
than myself. Not only young or middle aged. I met an elderly married couple of
tourists (in their 70s) in Red Square, Moscow once. They both spoke English, with
heavy accents, but they DID!

Six out of ten spoke, besides English, fluent German AND/OR French.
Thee out of ten spoke one more language:Russian, Spanish or Italian, on top.

After all, you don't need to leave this list to see it for yourself. Take Marcel
Bas, the true master of many languages. BTW, where on earth is he now? Hey
Marcel! Lewe jy nog, of het jy gesmelt en ontdooi?

As to English. Someone (a student of the Dutch course at the Moscow Maurice
Thorez Foreign Languages Institute) told me the Dutch government invested heavily
in education, including foreign language learning. Ja?

But my own belief is this: The Dutch strategically live on Europe's crossroads.
Sea lanes, the Rhine, overland trade routes. That was in the past. Now, they live
within the radio and TV broadcasting area of the three neighboring nation. Hence
everyday practice.
Compare to my own 20-minute English program on Moscow Channel 4 (educational)
once a week in the 1970s (by the way, that was in totalitarian times; under
democracy, there's no English -- or any other language -- lessons on TV, and
neither is there any dedicated educational channel. But that one was really
great). Or my attempts to listen in to jammed Beeb or VOA.

Or is it the Dutch perseverance? Eh, Marcel? Jacqueline? Leslie? :)

(To the green eyes) Enviously Yours--
Vlad Lee

PS: I wish I could dream in English:)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language proficiency

Privet, Vlad!

Well, though not wishing to detract from the reputation of Dutch people as
linguistic marvels, I must interject that I hardly think it is Dutch-specific or
that Dutch people in general are somehow more gifted in this respect.  I believe
it is a matter of "culture" that instills in people the notion that they must
learn foreign languages and that affords them the means to do so.

Besides, I have come across many a "Dutchman" with less than impressive foreign
language proficiency.  So, do not jump to conclusions on the basis of Dutch
people you meet outside the Netherlands.  People that are linguistically more
confident tend to be more ready to travel abroad and to do so under their own
steam.  (The ones in guided, "protected" groups are less easy to meet.)  This
applies to people of all countries.

I see this "culture" thing as a matter of establishing a certain mindset.  This
may be a conscious effort of the administration or a long-standing attitude that
was formed under pressure of certain necessities, or both of the above.

I have noticed very similar things in other countries that are "small" in
population, size, importance, etc, or whose populations have this perception. 
Another such case is Denmark.  Foreign language proficiency tends to be pretty
advanced there, more so than in already very advanced Norway and Sweden, larger
and "more important" countries.  It's similar in Finland, and also in Estonia and
Hungary.  Then there is Iceland with an incredibly high literacy rate and
impressive educational levels, with pretty good foreign language proficiency
despite the geographical isolation.

People in these countries and in the Netherlands do not expect people outside
their countries to learn their languages.  They base everything on the assumption
that the onus is on *them* to learn other nations' languages, because they
believe they themselves, their countries and their languages are so
"insignificant" that no one ought to be expected to bother about them, unless
they want to live there, and even then they tend to accommodate them by
addressing them in English or in their languages, oftentimes even when asked not
to do so.  In the cases of Finland, Estonia and Hungary the belief is added that
their non-Indo-European languages are far too difficult for foreigners to learn.

Again, it is important not to generalize on the basis of people one meets outside
their countries, and this includes those that seek international communication on
the Internet.

Americans and Australians often tell me they admire Europeans because they know
several languages.  Well, all in all this is a case of gross generalization based
on encounters with Europeans they meet at home or that approach them during
European travels.  The vast majority of Euopeans barely manage one foreign
language on a rudimentary level.  They never or hardly ever leave their own
countries, and when they do they communicate as little as possible.  Yes, people
from the Netherlands, Denmark and the other mentioned countries are more likely
to have done their homework.  It is clear why, and obviously their education
systems have given them a headstart because it is a matter of national mindset. 
The more important people believe their own countries, cultures and languages are
the less they tend to try to become proficient in foreign languages.  However,
there too are definite exceptions, and we are privileged to have some of them on
Lowlands-L.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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