LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.07.24 (10) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 24 July 2006 * Volume 10
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From: 'Marcel Bas' <roepstem at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.24 (07) [A/E]

Dag Vlad!

Djy't gaskryf:

"After all, you don't need to leave this list to see it for yourself. Take Marcel
Bas, the true master of many languages. BTW, where on earth is he now? Hey
Marcel! Lewe jy nog, of het jy gesmelt en ontdooi?"

'n Meester van baie tale? Da-uzh! Nu, spasibo! That's too much honour, Vlad! Now
I'm blushing... Still, I haven't MASTERED all the the lingos to the true extent!
There is yet a lot to learn! And my command of only seven Indo-European languages
(my command of two others is not worth adding to the seven) will wither in the
shadow of Reinhard, our poly-poly-polyglot.

No man, I have been so terribly busy lately. One of the most interesting things
happened: last week I had a delegation from South Africa here. They were sleeping
over at my place and we agreed on meeting again, in South Africa in two weeks.
Not too far away from Port Elizabeth. These ouks are really into philosophy, so
am I, they are proud of their language and Afrikaans heritage, they publish a lot
and I guess most Afrikaans people will know their names. I'd like to assist them
in their endeavours. For De Roepstem I'll write a nice article on their visit to
the Lowlands, about their aims and my visiting them, WHEN I HAVE TIME. Also the
other weeks have been too busy to do anything else...

But I haven't forgotten about you, Vlad, I still have my reply to your nice
e-mail waiting in my 'drafts' file. The same counts for Koal-Haanz, the other
'Buam'-half. I also still want to reply to your message, Koal-Haanz (or was it a
lengthy contribution to the forum? I'll look it up. It was i.a. about the
Kanaltal, which is indeed a fascinating part of Europe! Is Radio Val Canala still
broadcasting in the Rosental?). You see, I don't like writing short e-mails to
people to whom I have so much to tell. But I must say that I don't like this bad
side of my character that is so prone to procrastination. It's also because there
are too many interesting things happening at the same time. Maybe it's due to
some sort of lazy-making perfectionism, chi lo sa?

So this week I'm busy preparing for my trips to and through the Cape Provinces in
South Africa. Unfortunately I will stay in SA for only 17 days. Maybe I will meet
more people; I am busy founding a pan-Dutch, arty & philosophical magazine with
some Dutch and Flemish people, and last week my two guests told me that two other
Afrikaans writers are interested. But they live in the Gauteng province. That's a
bit hectic, but if I do find the time, I will most definitely rush though that
province and maak 'n draai in Alberton, OK? :). I also have to do a bit of
research for my thesis in Grahamstown.

Today I have saved the British version of the Wren Story, changed the word _wren_
into _tinktinkie_, printed it and kept it in my bag. I'll bring it to PE.
Hopefully that will do the job. Maybe my cousin will adjust the text a bit to
make it sound a bit more SA English, before reading it aloud on the tape. So on
Saturday I'll be in South Africa.

I'm already nervous, as it will be a rather busy couple of weeks, as you can see.
But I will be so happy to be back in South Africa and hear this beautiful
Afrikaans language once again. I haven't spoken it for three solid days, and I'm
already missing it!

Best regards,

Marcel.

http://roepstem.net

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency'

Beste Ron,

Even though I fully agree with your analysis of language proficiency,
you also wrote:

> The more important people believe their own countries, cultures and languages are
> the less they tend to try to become proficient in foreign languages. However,
> there too are definite exceptions, and we are privileged to have some of them on
> Lowlands-L.
>
What about the case of China (or to a lesser extent India)? In my
experience, most of the Chinese share a very fond and genuine belief in
anything remotely Chinese, and yet at the same time, everybody's
incredibly eager to learn a foreign language.

Surely, both the Chinese and the Dutch are never too wary of any
mercantile interest, but this alone cannot account for their linguistic
skills I think; as there are other countries in this world, with a
similar (mercantile) mindset, that somehow fail to make their citizens
at least bilingual.

What else then can make people study a second language?

Curiosity, in my opinion. Sheer human curiosity. Every other language
adds another dimension to your life; because very often, it reformats
your sense of logic, if you study it well. Now there with "curiosity",
we have something that has ethical connotations. Not too long ago, it
was considered rather obtrusive in many societies to have an inquiring
mind, and as such, language abilities (enhancing communication) were
thence lacking esteem. Remember the old Dutch saying "Spreken is zilver,
zwijgen is goud".

In these days of mass communication however...do we still "really" have
the right to remain silent? *s*

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language proficiency 

Hi, Luc!

> What about the case of China (or to a lesser extent India)? In my
> experience, most of the Chinese share a very fond and genuine belief in
> anything remotely Chinese, and yet at the same time, everybody's
> incredibly eager to learn a foreign language.

Well, well ... "everybody" may be a bit of an overstatement, a generalization
that I assume is based on your personal experiences in China (a bit after 2000,
if I remember correctly).  Bear in mind that as a foreigner you (1) mostly move
around large cities (and tend to be ... uh ... "guided" when you visit the
countryside), (2) frequent places (including schools) where "with-it" folks and
the select few hang out (such as the few that pass university entrance exams),
and (3) attract seemingly xenophiles types, many of whom will follow you around
("I want to converse in English with you.").  These are not necessarily
representative.  Having been in the last group of foreign students that were part
of Cultural-Revolution-style "open-air schooling" (开门办学 _kāi mén bà n xué_
"open door conduct class"), I had the privilege of doing agricultural work far in
the hinterland and thus getting to know or at least observe the "peasants," those
that represent the vast majority of China's population but are rarely seen by
visitors, most of the older ones only knowing their own dialects.  These are
people whose eyes grow to the size of saucers when they see a Chinese city
slicker.  You can imagine what a "treat" *I* was for them.  When I asked them if
they had ever fantacized about learning a foreign language and traveling abroad,
they either laughed (which could mean amusement or embarrassment) or just stared
blankly.  There was a certain degree of fear below curiosity, not only fear of
saying the politically wrong thing but also fear of foreign, unknowable and
possibly uncontrollable notions, and also fear of offending the "guest."  (That
was the end of the era when foreigners were rarely seen by themselves and even in
Beijing suburbs grandmothers would quickly gather their grandkids when they saw
me approach.)  I came away with the feeling that most Chinese have not let go of
the notion that theirs is the central country (中国 _Zhōngguó_) surrounded by
barbarians.  My experience and impression were that those that truly *want* to
study foreign languages are a small minority of mostly city dwellers with
opportunities and certain incentives, and that among them there is a majority of
those that see in it better-paying jobs, perhaps living abroad, not necessarily
relishing a foreign culture.  There are two types of abroad: (1) abroad-abroad
and (2) Chinese abroad.  Everyone is aware of the vast Overseas Chinese
communities everywhere that offer you the luxury of foreign life without having
to lose your home environment.  However, there are those, few though they are,
that are genuinely curious about alternative ways of thinking and living, those
that are truly keen on learning from it for the benefit of their country -- but
theirs can be a precarious tightrope walk in various regards.  Well, Luc, I could
come up with a number of other incentives for the interest you observed.  Let me
be diplomatic and suggest you take a look back through recent history.

Your challenge reminds me to add that when I said people's awareness of their
countries and languages being less "significant" leads them to wanting to
accommodate outsiders I did not mean to say that I believe they don't love their
countries and are not proud of their cultures and languages.  You can be
intensely proud of your language and still not expect that any foreigner would
want to learn it or should be "burdened" with it.  I don't really think it's an
actual "linguistic inferiority complex."  Much rather, I think it demonstrates
respect for the world's people, a type of politeness, a sense of place in the
world.  I wish people of all countries would be like that, as long as they don't
lose themselves in the shuffle.  

Some of Europe's smallest countries show us that you can be open to the world,
encourage multilingualism and still cultivate and enjoy homegrown flowers. 
Luxembourg could have made French and (Standard) German national languages.  It
did but added Luxembourgish, thus elevated what is essentially a German dialect
to national language status, the quintessential Luxembourgish language.  Monaco
teaches English and Italian as foreign languages and has French as official
language and in addition to that elevated to national language status with its
own orthography Monegas (Munegascu/Monégasque), which is a Ligurian dialect
closely related to Genovese. (Being a minority language, it was endangered but
during the past 30 years has been making a strong comeback thanks to reassertion
efforts and integration into school curricula.)  Andorra could have done the
usual thing by going for "big."  Being wedged between Spain and France, this
means that it could have instated Spanish and/or French as national language(s).
 Spanish and French proficiency is indeed widespread, but the majority of
citizens have Catalan as their home language, so Catalan is the country's
official language.  Being the only offically independent Catalan-speaking country
was a big deal especially when Spain's Fascist dictatorship supressed Catalan and
other regional and minority languages of Spain, also considering France's usual
bare toleration of Catalan and other regional and minority languages.

You are right, Luc.  The Internet is bound to making foreign language proficiency
more relevant and necessary in more and more people's thinking.  The question is
if this means that English will take over even more or if this is a new dawn of
opportunities for all the "small" languages.

Marcel:

> Reinhard, our poly-poly-polyglot.

People have called me worse.  But don't get carried away!  Next I know you
nickname me Polly (Glott).  That would be the second feminine nickname.  Sylvia
is the other.  We once had a coworker of very brief tenure who obviously marched
to the beat of her own drum and patronized me in such a blatant way that
embarrassment gave way to amusement.  She once tried to pay me a compliment by
saying, "Ron Hahn ... Ah!  It's so beautiful!  Like ... Sylvia Puccioli!" 
(Sylvia Puccioli is/was a reporter on US National Public Radio.)  Ever since then
this is an inside joke.  Whenever I'm _Hahn im Korbe_ ("rooster in the basket,"
i.e. the only male among females) they remind each other (loudly enough for me to
hear) that I'm after all Sylvia, "one of the gals."

Enough sharing already!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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