LL-L "Negation" 2006.06.07 (02) [E/LS]

Thu Jun 8 05:56:57 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 07 June 2006 * Volume 02
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From: 'jonny' <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L 'Negation' 2006.06.07 (01) [E]

Beste Reini,

why don't YOU use it by yourself? Or- just if you are describing *Missingsch*?
I've done a look into the archieves- no serious hit at all!

> (2) with _ny_ ( 'never') and often written as one word ()
Oha!!!!

> verbal and written standard among native speakers.
Why do I never hear something about this kind of stuff? Neither here nor in EFLS
(Eastern Friesland Low Saxon), though I'm talking LS a good hour nearly every day
(more than Standard German, especially in times without a girl friend ;-))? With
people still and up till their death being real natives, far more 'native' than I
guess myself to be?

> It is true that _nie nich_ is often exploited as "silly talk," also used
> in
> German.
I'm agreeing!

And- the soouurcceessss....- na! All of them must be genious and perfect writers
or speakers. How many...!
Why don't you talk about your mom, dad, brother, sister, neighbour, even teacher,
as I should and could do? All those hundreds, probably thousands of people I got
my LS-knowledge from? People that partly I never in my live ("nienich") spoke
just one word Standard/High German with? No source, being worth to be mentioned,
he???

Let's stop at this point- _nienich_ schull'n wii _nienich_ bruuken! For the
interest of our matter! OK?

Allerbest

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Negation 

Moyen, Jonny!

> why don't YOU use it by yourself? Or- just if you are describing *Missingsch*? 
> I've done a look into the archieves- no serious hit at all!

But I said I do use it, irrespective of if it appears in the archives or not. 
And, actually, it does appear in the archives.  (If you search for a string of
words you need to encapsulate them in quotation marks, thus "nie nich".)

Here you are:
Een Saak keem klaar daar bi ruut: de Jury hœpt wat to läsen to kriegen, wat dat
vördem nie nich gäven harr. 
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0603E&L=lowlands-l&P=R300

   So still sleep op de wiede Stepp,
   Ons Dörp un Blomengarden,
   As wenn een Kranz in de daar Nacht,
   De ik nie nich vergeten hebb,
   Dat Vörjahr hett verlaren.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0508B&L=lowlands-l&P=R2661

Themen schullen wi hier nie nich mengeleern.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0501D&L=lowlands-l&P=R3927

Hunnen, de klafft sünd nie nich bietsch.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0305C&L=lowlands-l&P=R2054

Mit Lies’ wardt nie nich snackt.
(“With Elizabeth is never not talked.” [impersonal passive]))
‘One doesn’t ever talk with Elizabeth.’
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0304B&L=lowlands-l&P=R1442

Dat bedüüdt denn ja "in eensen to gissen un nie nich wäten."
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0301E&L=lowlands-l&P=R2241

Mann in de Tünn, Fiete! Dat een mi hier (or annerwegens) "Vadder" nöömt,
dat heff ik bitherto noch nie nich to hören (or to lesen) kregen.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208A&L=lowlands-l&P=R772

Dat is 'n snaakschen Dialekt un is mi bitherto noch nie nich in de Mööt kamen.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0207A&L=lowlands-l&P=R1784

Is klaar, dat düt Wark nie nich toennen is.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0108A&L=lowlands-l&P=R213

Stimmt dat, dat 't Neddersassische/Nedderdüütsche in dat Rebeed nie nich
"Kartüffeldüütsch" nöömt wardt or wöör?
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0006B&L=lowlands-l&P=R2

Dankscheen on bravo fe aules, waut Du vesäkje on bestriede deist! Wie
"Nadadietsche" -- Menniste on uck Nich-Menniste -- kjenne Die daut nienich nuach
loone, leewe Frint.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0504B&L=lowlands-l&P=R2614
(Yes, it's pretty much *standard* in Mennonite LS.)

Here our Utz:

To 1. und 2. kann ik nix bi tostüern, de Wöör heff ik nog nie nich hört.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0604E&L=lowlands-l&P=R1372

'Pesern' heff ik mien Leefdag nie nich hört, awer 'pesen' kenn ik. Dat
seggt wi för 'fix lopen'.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0511C&L=lowlands-l&P=R1085

mien Vadder hett ook ummer "Knief" to´n Klappmess seggt, aver nie nich
to´n Kökenmess.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0504B&L=lowlands-l&P=R1396

in Tokunft ward ik nie nich wedder wat in Engelsch schreven
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0404D&L=lowlands-l&P=R2009

In Meckelnborg warrt denn ook Göps(ch) sachs fakener bruukt as bi us. Ik
heff dat mien Leefdag nienich hört.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509E&L=lowlands-l&P=R796

Aver ik heff "Vinken" nienich in´n Nokixel funnen.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410E&L=lowlands-l&P=R605

Un kannst mi glöven, ik heff dat hier noch nienich belevt, dat se jichenseen ´n Kopp
afrieten hebbt.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409D&L=lowlands-l&P=R1509

Un Heinrich Becker:

Fiete,
ick heff dacht, du wörst all 'n beetchen öller. Helmut Schmidt was keen (
nie nich) Börgermeester in Hambörg, man bloot Innensenator in de Tiedt van
de grote Floot. He heeft sick dorbi sien Meriten verdeint.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0302A&L=lowlands-l&P=R6242

Un Jan Strunk:
Also tem bispiell in't westföölschke heff ik dat nog nienich hort.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0411E&L=lowlands-l&P=R422

And then there are tons of occurrences in stories of Clara Kramer-Freudenthal
published on LL-L.

> Why don't you talk about your mom, dad, brother, sister, neighbour, 
> even teacher, as I should and could do? 

There are many that said and say it.  But you don't know them.  This is why I had
quoted better-known writers.  How many pieces of evidence do you need.  Names? 
Addresses?  Biographies?  Credentials?

It's quite possible that this construction isn't or wasn't used in the dialects
to which you have been exposed -- be it because those dialects never had them or
because _hochdeutsche Schlechtmacherei_ has caused them to change their dialects
by way of compensation (which would be a case of bowing to the pressure they
profess to reject).

> Let's stop at this point- _nienich_ schull'n wii _nienich_ bruuken! 
> For the interest of our matter! OK?

Says who?

German, Low Saxon, Dutch and English dialects abound with double negative
constructions.  Afrikaans made it a rule.  Appalachian, African American
Vernacular English, other Southern US dialects, Irish and Scottish English
dialects ("I'm not late, amn't I not?") and many other varieties use double and
even triple negatives all the time.  Well, at least most of the above-mentioned
did, until someone somewhere sometime got it into some speakers' heads that it
was "bad," "ig-nurnd," because the respective standard languages don't permit
double negatives and their "educated" speakers like to use the double negative as
a shibolet of "uneducated" talk. Well, as far as *I* am concerned, they can make
fun of it till they're blue in the face.  If a language variety inherently or in
its traditional form uses double and/or triple negatives, then that's good enough
for me.  Language snoots and dialect deriders and those that fear them don't have
the slightest bit of influence on the way I view such dialects, and I am saddened
to see dialect speakers "improve" their dialects under such pressures, in fear of
sounding uneducated and giving their dialects a bad name.  I am not suggesting
that speakers of double negative language varieties should pull out all the stops
and "overdo" it in an in-your-face sort of way.  They should just ignore any such
derision.

Besides, double negatives are strongly developed in Romance languages, but they
get away with it since most of those are venerated as _Kultursprachen_ by the
very same language snoots; e.g., Italian _Non voglio mangiare niente_ ("Not
I-want to-eat nothing"), Spanish _No voy a decir nada a nadie nunca jamas_ ("Not
I-go to say nothing to nobody never never"), French _Je ne veux pas pleurer_ ("I
not want not to-cry").  In Romanian, double negatives are mandatory (e.g., _nu
deranjez pe nimeni niciodată_ "not I-disturb [to] nobody never").  This applies
in all Modern Slavonic varieties as well, in Hungarian also (e.g., _Nincs semmim_
"Nothing I have not", _Ne mondd el senkinek_ "Don't tell no one about it"), and,
yes, even Classical Greek, the _Kultursprache_ _par excellence_, uses double
negatives (e.g., _μὴ θορυβήσῃ μηδείς_ "do not let no one raise an uproar").

Double negatives are rarely used in Low Saxon dialects of Germany, certainly when
compared with the above-mentioned varieties.  As I said before, if they are used
in LS they tend to be cases of emphatic negation, and in the case of "never" the
construction _ny nich_ (<nie nich>) is common or even the default in numerous
dialects, if not in most.  As such, _ny nich_ (<nie nich>) is widely used in
written literature because native speaker writers perceive them as correct.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
(back in Seattle)

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