LL-L "Etymology" 2006.03.24 (01) [E]

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24 March 2006 * Volume 01
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.03.23 (06) [E]

Yes, but not in the examples you gave, Dutch has -ig etc here:

Dutch
-venijn - venijnig  (not *venijns)
-vijand - vijandig  (not *vijands)
-aap    - apig or aapachtig (not *aaps)
-vreten - vreterig  (not *vreets)

There is no equivalent of LS 'glupen'in Dutch

Ingmar

Ron wrote:
"In Dutch and most LS dialects of the Netherlands, this _-sch_ has
developed into _-s_."
>
>The suffix _-sch_ added to nouns or verbs derives adjectives and adverbs
>that describe manner or character (historically probably starting as
>adverbs)probably; e.g.,
>
>venyn ["fe'ni:n] (<Venien>) 'venom'
>   > venynsch ["fe'ni:nS] (<veniensch>) 'venomous', 'shrewish', 'spiteful'
>
>vynd [fi:nt] (<Fiend>) 'fiend', 'enemy'
>   > vuyndsch [fy:(t)S] (<füün(d)sch>) 'hostile', 'angry'
>
>aap [Q:p] (<Aap>, <Oop>) 'ape', 'monkey'
>   > aapsch (<aapsch>, <oopsch>) 'affectated', 'dandyisch'
>
>/freet-/ vreten ["fre:t=n] (<freten>, <fräten>) 'to eat (as/like an
animal)
>   > vreetsch [fre:tS] (freetsch>, <fräätsch>) 'ravenous', 'greedy (for
>food)'
>
>glupen ["glU:p=m] 'to stare', 'to gawk', 'to ogle'
>   > 'staring', 'ogling', 'greedy', 'lusty', 'boorish'
>
>In Dutch and most LS dialects of the Netherlands, this _-sch_ has
developed
>into _-s_.

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.03.23 (06) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hoi, Jacqueline en Roger!
>
> Does it help you if I transfer this _hungerfreetsch_ to Dutch-based
> spelling?  Here you go: _hongervreets(ch)_.
>
> It contains _hunger_ ["hUN3`] (D <Hunger> NL <honger>) 'hunger' and
> _vreten_ ["fre:t=n] (D <freten> NL <vreten>) 'to eat (as/like an animal)'
> (cf. German _fressen_).  (Normal for humans: _eten_ ["e:t=n] 'to eat')
>
> The suffix _-sch_ added to nouns or verbs derives adjectives and adverbs
> that describe manner or character (historically probably starting as
> adverbs)probably; e.g.,
>
> venyn ["fe'ni:n] (<Venien>) 'venom'
>   > venynsch ["fe'ni:nS] (<veniensch>) 'venomous', 'shrewish', 'spiteful'
>
> vynd [fi:nt] (<Fiend>) 'fiend', 'enemy'
>   > vuyndsch [fy:(t)S] (<füün(d)sch>) 'hostile', 'angry'
>
> aap [Q:p] (<Aap>, <Oop>) 'ape', 'monkey'
>   > aapsch (<aapsch>, <oopsch>) 'affectated', 'dandyisch'
>
> /freet-/ vreten ["fre:t=n] (<freten>, <fräten>) 'to eat (as/like an
> animal)
>   > vreetsch [fre:tS] (freetsch>, <fräätsch>) 'ravenous', 'greedy (for
> food)'
>
> glupen ["glU:p=m] 'to stare', 'to gawk', 'to ogle'
>   > 'staring', 'ogling', 'greedy', 'lusty', 'boorish'
>
> In Dutch and most LS dialects of the Netherlands, this _-sch_ has
> developed into _-s_.
>
> I suspect that this suffix is related to the one that makes up language
> names, though in that case it preserves older _-i-_ where needed; e.g.,
>
> Engelsch ~ Ingelsch ~ Engels 'English'
> Duytsch ~ Duuts 'German' (Dutch: _Duytsch_ > _Duits_)
> Deensch ~ Deens 'Danish'
> Russisch 'Russian'
> Schineys(i)sch ~ Schineys 'Chinese'
> Japaansch ~ Japaans 'Japanese'
> Fransch ~ Frans 'French"
> Italieensch ~ Italieens 'Italian'
> Spaansch ~ Spaans 'Spanish'
> Poolsch ~ Pools 'Polish'
> Kaschuubsch ~ Kaschuubs 'Kaschubian', 'Cassubian'
> Greeksch ~ Greeks 'Greek'
> Vreyssch ~ Vreys 'Frisian'
> Amerikaansch ~ Amerikaans 'American'
> Hamborgsch 'Hamburg dialect'
> Mekelnborgsch 'Mecklenburg dialect'
> Hollandsch ~ Hollands 'Hollandish', 'Dutch'
> Belgisch 'Belgian'
> Limborgsch ~ Limborgs 'Limburgisch'
> Schotsch ~ Schots 'Scottish'
>
> So this _-(i)s(ch)_ really expresses "in the manner of ..."  If you speak
> "Polish" you speak "in the manner of Poles."
>
> Furthermore, this may well be related to _-sche_ > _-sch_ as a derivative
> of feminine forms, originally derived from masculine-associated titles or
> names; e.g., _möller_ 'miller' > _Möllersch(e)_ 'miller's wife' > 'female
> miller' or 'Mrs. Möller', _wikker_ 'warlock', (male) witch' >
> _wikkersch(e)_ '(female) witch' -- so, someone *associated* with someone.
> (Apparently, this suffix was imported into Russian as -ша _-ša_ to derive
> feminine forms of professions.)
>
> Back to _hungervreetsch_ ... I am not familiar with this word.  I would
> say _vreetsch_, _sloeksch_ (from _slukken_ 'to swallow') or _smachtig_
> (from _smacht_ 'craving').
>
> Groytens,
> Reinhard/Ron
Hi Ron,

Now it has become clear to me. I suspected a connection with 'vreten', but I
was put off by that -sch. I now get the impression from what you write that
it is pronounced like ch- in Dutch chocola. If that is correct I think it is
a needlessly complicated spelling. Why not simply write 'vreetsj'?

Regards,

Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hoi, Ingmar and Roger!

I wrote:

> glupen ["glU:p=m] 'to stare', 'to gawk', 'to ogle'
>   > 'staring', 'ogling', 'greedy', 'lusty', 'boorish'

That ought to be ["glu:p=m].  Sorry.  The Dutch way of spelling it would be 
<gloepen>.

Ingmar:

> There is no equivalent of LS 'glupen'in Dutch

Ah, but there is, albeit veiled by orthographic chaos and semantic shift!

Remember:

Dutch = Low Saxon
ui        = uu (Dutch spelling <oe>)

huis    = huus <hoes>
uit       = uut <oet>
tuin     = tuun <toen>

So, _glupen_ (<gloepen>) should be _gluipen_ in Dutch.  _Et voilà_:

(aan)gluipen 'to look (at ...) in a suspicious, dissempling, false-faced 
way'

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron 

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