LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.05.03 (03) [E]

Wed May 3 18:08:34 UTC 2006

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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L O W L A N D S - L * 03 May 2006 * Volume 02
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From: "Global Moose Translations" <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.05.03 (01) [E]

Ron wrote:
>What this was about to begin with was your claim that "Mom" and "Dad" are
>unacceptable and demeaning choices in my translation of the Low Saxon
>song, when everyone else has been saying that "Mom" and "Dad" are the only
>choices within the given context in the vast majority of Modern English
>dialects (and going back a good way), that in this contexts "Mother" and
>"Father" would be perceived as inappropriate by native English speakers.

I still disagree. This is an old song, the LS version does not say "Mama"
and "Papa", but "mother" and "father", and any translation would have to
reflect this if you don't want to destroy the very essence of the song. This
has nothing to do woth modern language use at all. Or where you shooting for
a gangsta rapper version? In that case, I think it needs some more work. Go
ahead, I dare you. ;-)

>Where I come from, a translator has to choose equivalent lexical items
>optimally in conveying the original's assumed intent and tone, and this
>includes culturally, socially and idiomatically appropriate choices.

Exactly. That's why I complained.

>Whilst I do not want this to go the way of the battle of the sexes, let me
>just say that stereotyping and dicrimination affect men also, though in
>different ways, such as being branded a sexual predator by default, not
>being able to as much as smile at someone's child or having women let the
>elevator go by if you're the only on on it, etc., etc.

Now this is very much a cultural issue. I have encountered this kind of
paranoia in the United States, but not in Europe, or only rarely and in very
mild forms. I was also rather shocked that, while European are taught not to
go with strangers, American children aren't even allowed to TALK to them. So
how are they expected to develop appropriate social skills? I can also tell
you that the boys I played with as a child would all have gone to jail for
sexual harrassment if modern US law were applied. If a first-grader can be
suspended from school for hugging a girl (!), what would have happened to my
friends who thought nothing of peeing in the bushes right in front of me,
and daring me to do the same? Not to mention certain comparative studies
that are usually considered a normal aspect of childhood? :-)

I once had a Swedish coworker who used to be a Boy Scout leader in Sweden,
but gave it up after moving to the States. He said that if an eight-year-old
boy hurt himself badly in Sweden, the Scout leader would take him on his
lap, hold him and rock him, rub or blow on the sore spot and comfort him in
every way until the pain subsided. And then he showed us what the same scene
would look like in America... he bent over towards the imaginary child, with
both his arms held on his back and his whole body as distant as possible,
and barked "You okay"?

My friends in California where quite shocked when I changed my shirt on the
beach in the open (I was even wearing a bra!) and was about to let my
daughters, then 6 and 4, run around naked on the beach like they would in
most European countries. I was new in the country then and thought they were
joking when they said this could get me arrested.

Anyway, this whole debate just shows how laden language use is with
cultural, moral and political issues. Wat den een sin Uhl, is den annern sin
Nachtigall.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Gabriele:

> I still disagree. This is an old song, the LS version does not
> say "Mama" and "Papa", but "mother" and "father", and any
> translation would have to reflect this if you don't want to
> destroy the very essence of the song. This has nothing to do
> woth modern language use at all. Or where you shooting for
a gangsta rapper version? In that case, I think it needs some
> more work. Go ahead, I dare you. ;)

Ah, you see, that's where it helps to know the language.  Unlike in
German, _Mama_ and _Papa_ have never been options in Low Saxon, certainly
not in rural dialects.  Those that use(d) them in rural settings are
dialects at the outskirts of larger cities, like some of the Lower Elbe
dialects, that started adopting such words in more recent times.

In Low Saxon (Low German), _Mouder_ ~ Mudder_ (<Moder> ~ <Mudder>) and
_Vadder_ ~ _Vader_ without articles are exactly the equivalents of what in
English is now "Mom" and "Dad," namely appalations or names, not nouns. 
With articles they are the equivalents of the English nouns "mother" ~
"mom" and "father" ~ "dad," choices depending on tone and context.

The song says:

(2) Kumm du Ã¼m Middernacht! Kumm du Klock een!
|: Vadder slÃ¶ppt. Moder slÃ¶ppt. Ick slaap alleen. :|

(2) Kum du Ã¼m middernacht! Kum du klok eyn!
|: Vadder slÃ¶pt. Mouder slÃ¶pt. Ik slaap alleyn. :|

which I translated as:

(2) Come in the dark of night, when the clock has struck one!
|: Dad will be asleep, Mom will be asleep, and I sleep alone. :|

These are clearly meant to be names, not nouns.  Translating them as
"Mother" and "Father" would sound strange in Modern English, and in some
older varieties also.  This has nothing to do with "slang" and has
everything to do with ordinary language, ordinary language that goes well
back in time, also in rural Britain.  There is nothing stilted in the
original song.  Using "Mother" and "Father" would introduce a stilted
element.

Again: "Mom" and "Dad" are *not* slang, no matter what you personally
associate with these words and what you personally prefer to think. 
Furthermore, African American Vernacular English (of which variants are
used in rap music) is *not* slang either but a ligitimate dialect group of
American English, the first language of millions of Americans.  However,
if *you* interspersed your English with found bits like "yo' moma" I would
consider it idiolectical slang because you would not really be speaking
AAVE but would borrow from it "for effect" (and that would probably end up
being socially unacceptable, but that's besides the point).

It is not really a matter of personal likes and dislikes and whether or
not one approves or disapproves of a given culture or lexical items.  It
is a matter of authentic language.  Especially in poetic translation it is
important to be sensitive to this, and the art is for the translator to
translate someone else's personal feelings with empathy while suspending
his or her personal feelings, biases, judgment, chips on shoulders and the
like.

Finis

Reinhard/Ron

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