LL-L "Terms of address" 2006.05.10 (01) [E]

Wed May 10 14:48:10 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 10 May 2006 * Volume 01
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From: "First name Last name" <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Terms of address"

Hi all,

Ja, Paul, most Afrikaner kids still use the tannie/oom address,
as well as Coloured kids with the antie/oom/uncle address.

In my family we dropped the tannie/oom and even the
mammie/pappie forms of address and used first names, but
this casualness is still quite rare.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: CrÃostÃ³ir Ã“ Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Terms of address" 2006.05.09 (10) [E]

Kevin Caldwell wrote:
  "I'd even prefer what used to be common in the U.S., which was for
children to
address adult friends of their parents as "Uncle [first name]" or "Aunt
[first
name]".

  This used to be _extremely_ common (in Britain) when I was a child. It
was only
when I was ten or so that I realised all these "uncles" and "aunties" were
fake -
i.e., not blood relatives. I always liked it, though. It allowed
familiarity and
respect.

  Of course now you struggle to hear it anywhere, even _with_ blood
relatives. My
nieces and nephews sometimes forget to call me "Uncle CrÃostÃ³ir"
preferring just
my first name (until I correct them). This would have been unthinkable
when I was
a child - calling an uncle or auntie by their first name. So my nieces and
nephews
call me "Uncle CrÃostÃ³ir" but my elder brother, who doesn't care either
way, gets
called by his first name by them.

  Go raibh maith agat.

  CrÃostÃ³ir.

----------

From: "Global Moose Translations" <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Terms of address" 2006.05.09 (07) [E/Middelsprake]

Paul wrote:
>People routinely ignore Mr/Mrs/Ms across generations now, to
>use first names as soon as they know them. Often, these days,
>you don't even learn someone's surname till you've known them a while.

I must admit that, while living in the USA, I learned to basically ignore it
when someone told me their name ("Hi, I'm Tiffany, I'll be your waitress
today!" "Hi, I'm Jason, do you want fries with that?" "Hi, my name is Sarah,
how may I help you?"). My subconscious simply started to file it under
"superfluous information" and threw it out immediately. I still have trouble
remembering people's names these days... or is it that I am just not getting
any younger?

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2006.05.09 (03) [E]

Ron,

As far as I can tell, "sir" and "ma'am" are used extremely rarely in
Australia, addressing *any*one.  It is avoided, and many Australians may
never use such terms ever.  You hear them mostly in posh hotels and
restaurants with international clienteles.  It's just not a part of
Australian culture and attitude, smacks of social hierarchy, authority and
aristocracy, all of which are very much disliked by most Australians.  In
fact, when I moved from Australia to the United States I felt very
uncomfortable when I heard people use "sir" and "ma'am," and I cringed
when I everytime heard press representatives address the president as "Mr.
President" and "sir."  It sounded so submissive and suck-uppish to me
then.  I still don't like it, but I can live with it now, have been known
to address strangers that way myself, especially elderly people.  However,
hearing children address their fathers as "sir" still gives me the creeps,
even though I try to be tolerant of the culture.

I don't know why, but I always call strangers sir and ma'am. I find myself
trying not to do it with people my age, but it's difficult even then. What
do Australians call someone above them in social rank? I call my pastors
Pastor Yoo and Pastor Mike. What would an Australian call Prime Minister
Howard? (sans the political feelings toward or against him)
Ben

----------

From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LLL-L "Delectables" 2006.05.09 (03) [E]

Ron,

As far as I can tell, "sir" and "ma'am" are used extremely rarely in
Australia, addressing *any*one.  It is avoided, and many Australians may
never use such terms ever.  You hear them mostly in posh hotels and
restaurants with international clienteles.  It's just not a part of
Australian culture and attitude, smacks of social hierarchy, authority and
aristocracy, all of which are very much disliked by most Australians.  In
fact, when I moved from Australia to the United States I felt very
uncomfortable when I heard people use "sir" and "ma'am," and I cringed
when I everytime heard press representatives address the president as "Mr.
President" and "sir."  It sounded so submissive and suck-uppish to me
then.  I still don't like it, but I can live with it now, have been known
to address strangers that way myself, especially elderly people.  However,
hearing children address their fathers as "sir" still gives me the creeps,
even though I try to be tolerant of the culture.

I don't know why, but I always call strangers sir and ma'am. I find myself
trying not to do it with people my age, but it's difficult even then. What
do Australians call someone above them in social rank? I call my pastors
Pastor Yoo and Pastor Mike. What would an Australian call Prime Minister
Howard? (sans the political feelings toward or against him)
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Terms of address

Kevin and CrÃostÃ³ir,

My nieces and nephews (with an enormous age range and in the east and west
of Germany as well as in Australia) call me by first name, and so do my
wife's nieces and nephews.  It's because I started it in the 1970s when
"uncle" was "uncool," and then I couldn't discriminate later.  However,
none of them has ever disrespected me as far as I am aware of.

As a child I caught the tail end of calling non-blod-relatives "uncle" and
"aunt," but this was limited to my parents' friends, did not include
people in the neighborhod, probably because I grew up in a city.

Hi again, Ben!

> I don't know why, but I always call strangers sir and ma'am.

That doesn't surprise me, because you definitely strike me as being a very
well-mannered, respectful and considerate young man.  (And I mean this in
the least suck-uppish and patronizing way imaginable.)  I wouldn't
perceive it as creepy in your case, because you're just being polite
within the traditional American context.  (Are you originally from Arizona
or from farther east?)  So why aren't you callin' the Kahuna and me "sir"
then, huh, respectible gentlemen that we are?  ;-)

> What would an Australian call Prime Minister
> Howard? (sans the political feelings toward or against him)

"Mr. Howard," I reckon, perhaps "Prime Minister," probably "John" after a
half pint, and "Zh...ohn...ny" after a few more pints.  ;-)  Seriously, I
wonder what our friends in Australia now think about this one.

For instance:

<quote>
JOURNALIST: How did you learn the news Mr Howard?
PRIME MINISTER: I learnt the news by phone call.
</quote>
http://www.pm.gov.au/News/interviews/Interview1922.html

<quote>
JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, how much will this cost and where will the
troops be based?
</quote>
http://www.pm.gov.au/News/interviews/Interview1921.html

<quote>
MILLER: Mr Prime Minister good evening.
PRIME MINISTER: Hello John.
</quote> (Oops!)
http://www.pm.gov.au/News/interviews/Interview1893.html

And then it's pretty much "you" all the way.  Most people think of "prime
minister" as a job or function title, like "chairman" or "driver."

People in government may be referred to as "Right Honorable So-And-So"
(such as "the Right Honorable Member" or "the Right Honorable Malcolm
Fraser"), but that's just inherited British form and rarely, if ever,
means that those people are thought of as right or honorable, certainly
not both.  You'd know this if you ever listened to Australian
parlarmentary debates.  (Talkin' about "fur flying" ...  It makes the
British equivalent seem like a tupperware party in comparison and the U.S.
equivalent like a wake.)

You want "creepy"?  When I traveled in Indonesia (on foot, by bus, train
and ferry) I would usually stay in Indonesia-style inns but would use a
"better" hotel once a week, if available, for comfort, baths and laundry. 
In one of those hotels the manager came to see me to tell me that there
had been a complaint about me not calling the bell boys and waiters "boy."
 I told him that, for one thing, I don't call anyone "boy," not even boys,
least of all grown men, some of whom were older than I, and, secondly, I
had been under the impression that the colonial era had ended decades
earlier.  It didn't impress him, and he explained that he didn't want
other guest get the wrong idea and it was the "boys" that were
uncomfortable with me addressing them with ordinary polite _Anda_ or more
familiar _engkau_ ~ _'kau_, roughly corresponding to Dutch _u_ and _jij_
respectively.  I just moved out and demanded any unused prepay back.  This
was one cultural thing I was not willing to adapt to.  It would be
different if this had been an ancient indigenous system, but it was a
colonial add-on that was switched on whenever a person of European descent
(popularly _orang belanda_ "Dutchman") was involved.  It was bad enough
that people, even older people, addressed me as _oom_ (Dutch for 'uncle'
-- and I was still pretty young then), but there was little I could do
about that.  Lovely country, though.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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