LL-L "Grammar" 2006.05.20 (02) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 20 May 2006 * Volume 02
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From: "Sandy Fleming" <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2006.05.15 (02) [E]

>From: "Kevin and Cheryl Caldwell" <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net
>Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.05.14 (06) [E/German]
>
>>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Grammar
>>
>>I go along with Andy here.
>>
>>These days it's "whom" or "who" in objective cases, depending on dialect,
>>sociolect or idiolect.  "To Whom It May Concern" is a set phrase, a
>>"lexicalized chunk."  "For Who the Bell Tolls" would sound right to many
>>were it not for the title of the famous novel.
>
>As already noted, Hemingway got the title from a famous poem by John Donne.
>
>>I wouldn't be surprised if "whom" went the way "shall" after "I" and "we"
>>went -- give or take a couple of generations.
>
>Some of us still try to use "whom". I especially make sure to use it after a
>preposition. "For who the bell tolls" sounds horrible to me.
>
I think the missing links in this discussion are on the one hand, the
syntax, and on the other, replacements for "whom" other then "who".

Note the word order of these set phrases:

For whom the bell tolls.
To whom it may concern.

Many people wouldn't be happy with:

For who the bell tolls.
To who it may concern.

But altering the syntax makes it more natural (or it would seem more
natural if it weren't for the fact that these are set phrases):

Who the bell tolls for.

and "whoever" seems acceptable as replacement for "whom" when changing
the syntax doesn't work, although there is still "whomever" if you prefer:

To whoever it may concern.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Excellent point, Sandy!

In other words, we need to group lexico-morphological and syntactic
choices by roughly contemporaneous pairs, and the whys and why-nots become
clearer.

Modern English and Low Saxon have in common a tendency toward separating
pronouns and prepositions, while for instance Standard German, like
Standard Dutch and less contemporary and now more "stilted" Modern English
prefer pronouns and prepositions to be close together.

German (not the official tile of the book):
Für wen die Glocke läutet
("For whom the bell tolls")

Northern Low Saxon:
(Wou)keyn de klok vör bayert
<(Wo)keen de Klock för beiert>
("Who(m) the bell for tolls")

German _wen_ is accusative (i.e. direct objective, which always goes with
"for") "whom," as opposed to dative (i.e. indirect objective) _wem_ "whom"
and nominative (i.e., subjective) _wer_ "who."  NLS _(wou)keyn_ is static;
in other words, it has the same form when it is the object ("who") and
when it is the subject ("whom").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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