LL-L 'Etymology' 2006.10.01 (01) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 01 October 2006 * Volume 01
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From: 'Douglas G. Wilson' [douglas at nb.net]
Subject: Dutch (/English?) 'trimmen'?

Elsewhere, someone has inquired regarding this 1921 (?) Dutch poem
"Bedreigde Stad":

http://users.pandora.be/gaston.d.haese/bedreigde_stad.html

How would one translate these two passages, and in particular what is the
sense of "trimmen" in each of them?

<
uitgesloten>>

<
kan vluchten en trimmen>>

I presume this "trimmen" is a reflex of English "trim" as in "trim the
ship", "trim the dog", "trim [one's physique]"?

-- Doug Wilson

----------

From: 'Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.' [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: Etymology

Does anybody have an idea about the etymology of (cotton ) wadding?

Our club (de Warande) in the little Zinnerstraat in Brussels shares that
street, as well as an underground parking, with the US Embassy. As a result
our cars are thorougly checked by security each time we park there. A
strange part of they check is a security agent touching the car body at
different places with a kind of cotton wadding. I still don't understand
what the purpose of that is.

I find for wadding:

UK: coton wadding, cotton wool
US: absorbent cotton
batting (as a filler)

FR: ouate
ouater: fill with wadding

NL: watten
(in my Limburgish: watt)

Germ: Watte

So the word is shared by many languages.
My Robert Etymologique gives:
Ouate: latin médieval "wadda", mot obscur, d'origine probablement orientale
(... arabe bata'in .... it. ovatta...)

Any idea?
Regards,

Roger

----------

From: David Barrow [davidab at telefonica.net.pe]
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.09.30 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [[log in to unmask]]
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Recently we discussed the "American flap" and its Low Saxon counterpart (again),
> as well as the Low Saxon tendency toward developing it to an /r/.  I wrote:
>   
>> The articulation of the American flap (written _tt_, _dd_) is close to that of
>> single-flap aprical /r/, including the Spanish (single) /r/ and als what in
>> Japanese is romanized as _r_ (though these two are not phonetically identical).
>> In other words, it doesn't surprise me that a child renders it as an apical /r/.
>   
>> Incidentally -- and some of you may remember me mentioning this previously -- the
>> same rule applies in several Northern Low Saxon dialects; e.g., _vadder_ ["fad3`]
>> ~ ["far3`] (sometimes written _Varrer_) 'father'.
>   
>> By the way, a related d > r (and in some dialects t > r)* rule applies in
>> many Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects as well, though they do not apply
>> across word boundaries.  In some dialects this applies sporadically, in
>> others regularly.  In actual fact, I believe it is a relative of the
>> American "flap" or "tap" (as in "better" and "butter").
>>
>> [* In most dialects /t/ and /d/ surface identically between vowels, just not
>> word-initially.]
>>
>> Typically, the tapping rule requires a short vowels on each side (in some
>> dialects any sort of vowel); e.g., _bodder_ ~ _botter_ ~ _budder_ ~ _butter_
>> ['bOr6] ~ ['bUr6] 'butter', _vadder_ ['far6] 'father', in some dialects
>> _beter_ ['be:r6] ~ ['bE:r6] 'better', etc.
>>
>> Interesting developments:
>>
>> _wedder_ ['vEd6] 'again' has become _werrer_ ['vEr6] in some dialects.  In a
>> few dialects, the Saxon shift /er/ > /ar/ (e.g., _berg_ > _barg_ 'mountain')
>> then applied: _warrer_ ['var9].
>>
>> In some dialects, the word _bed_ [bEt] is pluralized as _bedden_ ['bEd=n].
>> Interestingly, "flapping" / "tapping" has come to apply to the plural form
>> and then been treated as an /r/: _berren_ [bE.3n], and this has affected the
>> singular form in some: _ber_ [bE.3].  This is interesting in that _berren_
>> [bE.3n] is phonetically not intervocalic, since the dialects are
>> "non-rhotic" (_berren_ being pronounced much like "bairn" is in "non-rhotic"
>> English).  I wonder if this is is a historical hangover (thus is
>> phonemicized as /ber at n/) or is due to some productive rule sequence.
>>
>> As a final note, let me say that the sound involved here is pretty much the
>> same as the American flap, also much like what in Japanese is Romanized as
>> <r>: (SAMPA [4]), a voiced alveolar tap.  It is perceived as [r] and in some
>> varieties may have become /r/.  It is very close to a [d], seems to be the
>> "tapped" variant of [d].
>>     
> Meanwhile it occurred to me that in certain English and/or Scots dialects
> something similar seems to have happened.  However, I can come up with no more
> than one example at this time, and I wonder if there are more.
>
> porridge < (poddish <) pottage < potage < French _potage_
>
> 1225: Hwoso is euer feble eteð potage bliðeliche.
>
> 1387: Thou haste so mikel eaten of the potages of foryetfulnesse. 
>
> 1430: A potage on fysshday.
>
> 1528: Yf the podech [1573 porage] be burned to or the meate over rosted, we saye,
> the bysshope hath put his fote in the potte. 
>
> 1532: Ye have alredy eaten your porage.
>
> 1539: A whit sylver goblet that I use to ett pottadge. 
>
> 1542: Potage is not so moche vsed in al Crystendom as it is vsed in Englande.
>
> 1550: Hauyng a fewe porage made of the brothe of the same byefe, wyth salte and
> otemell. 
>
> 1590: How saist thou, Hodge, What, art thou hungrie? wilt thou eat my podge?
>
> 1601: He will eate a legge of mutton, while I am in my porridge.
>
> 1678: That is a chip in porridge; it is just nothing.
>
> 1956: He was forced to live for several months on 'haver-meal poddish' (oat-meal
> porridge) in a disused barn.
>
> 1976 (Lakeland): We want t' old kist filled wi' meal or ye'll git nee poddish for
> yer breckfast. 
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>   
Ron,

http://www.etymonline.com/

Says it's due to the influence of ME porreie 'leek soup'

porridge
    c.1532, "soup of meat and vegetables," alteration of pottage, influenced
by M.E. porreie, from O.Fr. poree "leek soup," from por "leek," from L. porrum
"leek." Association with oatmeal is 1643, first in Scottish.

But see

http://www.englang.ed.ac.uk/people/lancshnd.pdf

on Northern English t to r

David Barrow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Dave.

The _Oxford English Dictionary_ proposes the leek contamination thing also.  But
I find that a bit hard to swallow (if you pardon the pun).

That paper about Northern English /t/ -> r is very interesting, much more like it.

One shouldn't forget that a loan is a loan even if it doesn't come from another
language but from another dialect of the same language.  In this case we find a
regular shift in northern dialects, and we find dialectical variations of the
same word ("potage," "porege," etc.) pretty much from the Norman Conquest until now.

Yesterday I wrote:

> Ah, Jacqueline! That sounded really interesting at first (_pater_ > _Pfarrer_).
> But I'm afraid I have to say, "Close, but no soup for you."
> 
> German _Pfarrer_ (< Middle German _pharrære_ < _pharrâre_) 'parson', 'pastor',
> etc., came from Greek παροικία _paroikía_ < παρά _pará_ 'near(by)' + οίκος
> _oíkos_ 'house' (> English "parochial"?), so it used to denote a neighborhood
priest.
> 
> There's a relationship with Germanic, such as German _Pferch_ 'enclosure', 'pen',
> 'fold', 'hurdling'.

Afterwards I had one of those "epiphanies" that is likely to turn out to be cases
of reinventing the wheel.

If we go by regular sound shifts, German _Pferch_ should have the Low Saxon and
English cognates  ... tah-dah! ... *_park_.  A quick check does indeed show that
Middle Saxon has _perk_ and _park_, and Old Saxon has _perrik_, Middle Dutch has
_parc_, _perc_, _paerc_, _parric_, _perric_ (> Modern Dutch _perk_), Old German
_pfarrih_, _pferrih_, etc.  

Now, it is said that English "park" comes from Norman _parc_.  But English also
has the now archaic cognate "parrock" which appears to be native.  Some sources
claim that this group of words goes back to Latin _parrica_ 'compound'.  There
appears to be a complex jumble of Germanic words, non-Germanic words that started
off as Germanic words, as well as non-Germanic cognates.  Furthermore, Welsh
_parwg_ comes from English _parrock_ while Welsh _parc_ (and probably Irish
_páirc_) is likely to have come from French _parc_ via English _park_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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