LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.09.20 (03) [E/F/LS]

Wed Sep 20 18:37:06 UTC 2006

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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L O W L A N D S - L * 20 September 2006 * Volume 03
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From: Henno Brandsma [hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.09.18 (02) [D/E]

> I think that /T/ and /D/ are in the group of phonemes which are at the
> more ephemeral end of the stability range of phonemes and it is
> "natural" for them to change easily into either dental stops or into
> sibilants, a la the feature analysis of Chomsky and Halle (don't you
> just love that lad Chomsky, he gets everywhere?) and there are very
> many
> examples of this from around the world, and in that sense it not a
> change to which a lot of weight can be attached (as opposed say to the
> change of /D/ to /l/ in Frisian, which is a lot more unusual).

What change from /D/ to /l/ are you talking about? In what variety of
Frisian? Examples?

[snip]

> Yours most ramblingly, Paul Tatum.
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Paul, I, too, used to assume that the said letters stood for
> interdentals in
> Gaulish. However, lately I have been reading here and there that
> it is now
> assumed that they stood for /ts/, etc., which surprises me given
> that there is a
> Greek letter for this affricate.
>
> Thanks for the explanatory notes at the Frisian front, Henno.
>
> Wangerooge Frisian is very interesting indeed, mostly because of
> its archaisms.
> Unfortunately, too little was recorded of it before its demise.

There are a 2 large papers (> 200 pages) and a large book (about 400
pages) that contains all the material
that has been left. I believe it was Minssen that collected most of it.

> Below is a little piece followed by my translation. Noth the "th"
> in _threttiin_
> 'thirteen'. Note also the Low Saxon loans, such as the apparent
> calque
> _fariinsmon_ (LS _varensman_ / _Fahrensmann_ 'seafarer', 'mariner')
> and _Kriich_
> (< LS _kryg_ / _Krieg_ < German _Krieg_, replacing native _oorloog_).

Yes, this is from the only sound recording IIRC. This is already
quite late and the dialect
was already dying. The earlier forms (due to Minsen) are more
conservative.

> "Miin Oopel weer 'n fariinsmon, dee wunnet up Wangerooch. Dait weer
> nuu wail soo
> uum 't Jeer achtiinhunnert threttiin, fjirtiin. Wii haiden Kriich
> mit de
> Fransoozen, un de Engelsen weeren up 'e Oostsee. Daa lai eenes Diis
> miin Oopel
> mit siin Schip in de Wiizder far Anker. Dee must hooch Watter
> auftaiw, un hii un
> siin Liuud haiden jam dilleliin too slaipen."

(MWF = Modern West(erlauwer) Frisian; OF - Old Frisian)
The fariin (for the verb "farre(n)" is quite archaic. MWF has
"farrensman", so the form can be older
or more widespread. Wunnet is a non-umlauted form (still "wuunje" in
Saterlandic), cf MWF "wenje"
with umlaut. Typical also is ai < e: < e :
haiden < OF *heden(e), wail < OF *wel (MWF has rounded wol), dait <
det (< OF thet)), taiw < te:wa (wait), related to Dutch "vertoeven",
but with umlauted and unrounded vowel. "teew" is common still in
North Frisian, but no longer in MWF.
mit is strange : maybe a loan. OF had "mith(i)", diphthongised in MWF
to "mei", with loss of intervocalic -th-, as is common.
Or just a simplification of *mith ?
Typical for WeserFrisian is "dii" for Western "dei" (day), also
"liin" for MWF lein (lain, Dutch "gelegen, gelegd")
Also long vowels in "miin, siin, wii" instead of shortened or
diphtongised. Old long e: is kept (weeren, Jeer, but "slaipen", so
the two long e-sounds must have mixed at some time...), old long "a:"
is changed to "o:" as in all East Frisian (hooch, Wangerooch),
while short e has a tendency to move to a: jam (< jem or jim), Watter
< OF weter.

> "My granddad was a mariner, and he lived on Wangerooge. It must
> have been around
> the year eighteen hundred and thirteen, fourteen. We were at war
> with the French,
> and the English were on the Baltic Sea. One day my granddad was
> lying at anchor
> on the Weser River. He had to wait for the high tide, and he and
> his crew had
> lain down to sleep."
>
> My translation into Modern Northern Low Saxon:
>
> "Myn oupa was [~ weyr] 'n varensman; dey waan up Wangeroug'. Dat
> was [~ weyr] wul
> so Ã¼m 't jaar achtayn hunnerd dÃ¶rtayn, veyrtayn. Wy harren kryg [~
> oorloog] mit
> de frantsosen, un de Ingelschen [~ Engelschen] weyren up de
> Oostsey. Daar leyg'
> eyn dag myn oupa mit syn schip in de Werser voer anker. Dey mÃ¼ss 't
> hoge water
> af-toyven, un hey un syn luyd' harren sik daal-legd tou slapen."
>
> "Mien Opa was [~ weer] 'n Fahrensmann; de wahn up Wangeroog. Dat
> was [~ weer]
> wull so Ã¼m 't Jahr achteihnhunnert-dÃ¶rteihn, -veerteihn. Wi harren
> Krieg [~
> Oorloog] mit de Franzosen, un de Ingelschen [~ Engelschen] weren up
> de Oostsee.
> Daar leeg een Dag mien Opa mit sien Schipp in de Werser vÃ¶r Anker.
> De mÃ¼ss 't
> hoge Water aftÃ¶ven, un he un sien LÃ¼Ã¼d harren sik daalleggt to
> slapen."
>
> The Wangerooge variety tends to be considered a Weser Frisian
> variety, the last
> one to be extinct.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: 'Ben J. Bloomgren' [Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu]
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.09.18 (02) [D/E]

Scott,

I tracked my baby daughter's speech in a notebook, starting with
her first babblings. She included all common pronunciations of
consonants in European languages, including the single tap r, the
rolled r, and the uvular r and well as dental/aveolar and released/
unreleased consonants and all of the vowel sounds as well as the
clicks of Hottentot. I encouraged her by speaking French one day
and Spanish the next. Her mother was with her all day long and spoke
nothing but English to her; therefore, her growth in English was not
stunted. She had trouble with {asks}, {asked}, and {spaghetti}. She
12 months old before the mastered those consonant clusters. My oldest
boy (two years younger) had the same successes and difficulties.
Scott Catledge

Ironically, my cousin Justin, 10, rolls his r when pronouncing some /d/
phonemes. My brother's given name is Buddy, and I'm not sure of the IPA for
it, but I'll use the Spanish double r for it. He used to call my brother
"Burri", with the u being the English schwa and the double r being the full
trill. Have you ever heard of this? If only this country would get a clue
and teach children a foreign language before high school...
Ben

----------

From: 'Ben J. Bloomgren' [Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu]
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.09.18 (01) [E]

Ron,

Note also the substitution of interdental fricatives by means of dental
stops
(dental /t/ and /d/) in Irish English (including that of native English

Arabic dialects/languages do the same thing with MSA's dh and th as in
hadhaa and kathiir. In Syria they say ktiir.
Ben 

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Ben!  Nice to see you crawl back out of the woodwork!

The articulation of the American flap (written _tt_, _dd_) is close to that of
single-flap aprical /r/, including the Spanish (single) /r/ and als what in
Japanese is romanized as _r_ (though these two are not phonetically identical).
In other words, it doesn't surprise me that a child renders it as an apical /r/.

Regards,
Reinhartd/Ron

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