LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.27 (02) [E]

Wed Jun 27 18:56:14 UTC 2007

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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L O W L A N D S - L  -  26 June 2007 - Volume 02

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.26 (09) [E]

Dear LLers,
I am upset!
I know there a Jutian minorities to the South of the border,
and LS minorities to the North.
I am revolted that the respective Central Government have
hijacked these minorities to claim they are theirs.
Kumpelmenten Mike Wintzer

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.26 (09) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

As somebody who is a native Low Saxon speaker while also being attached to
the Danish minority I will first of all, welcome the decision from the
German goverment to allow bilingual signs in Slesvig-Holsten, although
correctly they soemtimes may need to be tril-lingual as e.g.
German-Danish-Frisian or German- Low Saxon-Frisian. But it is certainly a
step forward and helps to conserve our seperate identidy in the whole of
Sleswig-Holsten. I am pleased that the current government of Sleswig-Holsten
has pushed the matter forward without any hesitation, this is a far cry from
CDU-opinions 20 years ago. It certainly helps that prime minister H.P.
Carstensen is from a rural surrounding in Nordstrand and a Low Saxon speaker
himself. The matter of bilingual signs in Southern Jutland is indeed touchy
since the Danish language was oppressed when the area was under German rule
after 1871 and the memory of the Nazi-occupation is still very much alive.
It is somewhat similar as if there would be a call for bilingual signs in
both Flamish and French in the Flemsh speaking part of Belgium.

However, the German minority certainly has the right to ask for
representation because they are there and have been present in Southern
Jutland for a long time. Another problem is that they are in principal the
descendends of traders who came to Southern Jutland in mideaval times when
the Hanseatic league was at the height of its power. As such, those traders
were originally Low Saxon speaking but after becoming isolated from the rest
of Low-Saxon-speaking Northern Germany they adopted High German as the
language among them. Subsequently they do not regard themselves as Low
Saxons or resp. Holsteners in Southern Jutland but simply as Germans and the
Danes are somewhat reluctant to grant them more rights then necessary for
the reason mentioned further above.

In addition, since the Napoleonic wars Denmark has been reduced to its core
which provoked a spirit to defend this core against any intruders, no matter
what. Though in some ways I understand this it has also resulted recently in
intolerance and racism as often expressed through the Danish People's Party
(DF), Karup's comment in the article is an obvious hint where those people
are coming from. Often their taste is not too far away from "Der Stuermer".
There is also a prevailing opinion in Denmark that immigrants should adopt
the culture of the host nation if they want to live in Denmark and since the
Germans in Southern Jutland emigrated once from further south they are
regarded as the descendents of emigrants who should integrate in the Danish
society. I often reply if this is valid globally it is about time that the
European descendents in the Americas, Africa and Australia/Oceania start
learning the native languages and integrate in the native cultures. Now, how
many Danes in North America do speak then any American-Indian language?
Proabably not a single one.

Moreover, the German minority has been there for so long and certainly
contributed substantially to the wealth of Danish population in Southern
Jutland that I think they have the right to be represented when it comes to
signs as well. Often I think the issue would be more tolerable to many Danes
if the German minority would re-discover their Hanseatic roots and with it
the Low Saxon language of their forefathers, if a request for the bilingual
signs would be done for adding the Low Saxon versions of the placenames in
Southern Jutland this would probably be a lot more tolerable to many Danes.
The problem is, that the Low Saxon forms are often not too different from
the Danish and in particular Soenderjysk forms. At home we called the city
of Aabenraa simply "Aap'nraadh", because Apenrade would be pronounced like
that in our Low Saxon dialect and thus very similar to the Danish spelling
and pronunciation, although in Soenderjysk it is actually pronounced
"Affenraa". Haderslev would become "Hadhersleeven" or "Haa'rslee", just like
Soenderjysk, Soenderborg would be "Sonderborgh" and Toender will actually be
the German "Tondern". I could imagine if the German minority would bring the
idea forward that this could ease reservations in Denmark, at least among
the more liberal minded Danes. Whatever will happen now in Soednerjylland,
it appears that the SH-government is committed to introduce bilingual signs
no matter what and this is certainly welcomed by all linguistic groups in
SH.

Groeten vun

Helge

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.26 (09) [E]

Dear Lowlanders!

I have to make another comment to Euroland's article: Their reflection of
the Jyllands Posten article is actually wrong. Jyllands Posten itself has
not uttered any opinion about the matter itself (as Eurolang claims) but
simply reflected opinions of a variety of persons they have interviewed and
both pro- and contras are very well documented while JP refrains of taking
sides. Their final comment is by H. Juergensens (from the German minority)
and calls for a constructive and tolerant discussion on the matter. I am
somewhat more sceptical about the article by "Die Welt", it is a lot more
populistic and creates the impression that the Danes still hate the Germans,
the article focusses on the apparent rejection of all Danes to the idea,
which is not true, according to Jyllands Postens's article. H. Juergensen
final comment is not present at all! That's a shame. It shows how little a
newspaper like "Die Welt" understands of Slesvig and Holsten. Their article
sounds like "The world still hates and oppresses the poor Germans" and they
have obviously not noticed that times have changed and things in
Slesvig-Holsten and Soenderjylland are moving on, no matter what.

Helge

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks, Mike and Helge!

By the way, Helge, you provided the long-sought answer to why Low Saxon
("Low German") seems to be gone from Danish soil.

As for what appears to be Peter Josika's quotes and Die Welt's bias, I am
copying the editor of Eurolang on this, and am adding, to make it abundantly
clear a repetition here, and I hope that this matter can be followed up on
the basis of more reliable sources in Eurolang.

I am somewhat more sceptical about the article by "Die Welt", it is a lot
more populistic and creates the impression that the Danes still hate the
Germans, the article focusses on the apparent rejection of all Danes to the
idea, which is not true, according to Jyllands Postens's article. H.
Juergensen final comment is not present at all! That's a shame. It shows how
little a newspaper like "Die Welt" understands of Slesvig and Holsten. Their
article sounds like "The world still hates and oppresses the poor Germans"
and they have obviously not noticed that times have changed and things in
Slesvig-Holsten and Soenderjylland are moving on, no matter what.

Whatever the truth of the matter may be, the Danish People's Party's power
gain and general sentiment in this issue seems to go back to the
"pre-enlightenment" attitude of  "This is country X where we speak language
X (only)."  We see this here in the US where there are English-only
movements that are primarily anti-Hispanic and are fundamentally opposed to
diversity in general (considering that throughout history all immigrant
families eventually adopted English at least as a second language despite
the absence of a language policy).  While road sign regulation may not seem
all that important in the great scheme of things, some of what we have been
witnessing in this young century alone goes to show that no nation, no
matter what its track record and reputation may be, should consider itself
immune to embarking on the dangerous path of turning inward and complacent.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

•

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