LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.28 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 June 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Sönke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.27 (03) [E]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.27 (02) [E]
>
> When I visited Schleswig about 15 years ago, there was an organisation
called something like Die Grensvereinigung/Graensevereningen that seemed to
concern itself with multilingual nature of the region.  Anybody know if they
are still active?

You are probably refering to the Grænseforeningen ('border association').
It's a kind of association of and for the Danish minority in
Slesvig-Holsten, and it's basically an (open-minded) lobby organisation for
the Danes. And yes, they're still very much alive. See
http://www.graenseforeningen.dk/

Regards,
Sönke

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From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.27 (04) [E]

Hi Ron,
> You wrote among other things:
>
> Well, the government of Schleswig-Holstein does take care of the interests
> of
> the Germans on the other side of the border, just as the Danish government
> does for the Danes on our side. I think that is perfectly normal. Who else
> should assist these minorities if not the majorities from the other side
of
> the border.
>
> I'm not totally sure I understand what you mean by "taking care."   If you
> are talking about protecting them within the framework of national and
> state/province welfare, it is in my opinion the country of citizenship
that
> is first and foremost responsible.
You are right with that, of course. I just observed over the years that
there
are official contacts between the Schleswig-Holstein government and the
German minority in Nordschleswig and every now and then this government has
made comments on politics in Denmark, cautiously, of course, but
nevertheless. In addition there is a certain amount of official cooperation,
e.g. from what I know, authorities on both sides make sure that when you
finish school the exams are valid on the other side, too. That means that
you
can study in Germany with an Abitur that you made in Nordschleswig in a
German school.

Kind regards,
Heiko Evermann

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks, Heiko.  I know about the agreements, and I think they're fine.  I
just would hate to see people go down the road of assuming that the
minorities must be taken care of by the countries across the border.
Playing watchdog is another matter, but it should be an international
matter.

Folks, Dawyth Hicks, the Chief Editor of Eurolang, asks if he may reproduce
part of our exchange, I believe in the form below (because that's how he
appended it).  I told him I need to check with those involved.  So, Mike and
Helge, would that be all right with you?  Please let me know a.s.a.p.  It is
all right with me as long as the quote and the omissions are marked (as
shown below).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

> L O W L A N D S - L  -  26 June 2007 - Volume 02
>
> =========================================================================
>
> From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com> <k9mw at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.26 (09) [E]
>
> Dear LLers,
> I am upset!
> I know there a Jutian minorities to the South of the border,
> and LS minorities to the North.
> I am revolted that the respective Central Government have
> hijacked these minorities to claim they are theirs.
> Kumpelmenten Mike Wintzer
>
> ----------
>
> From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.26 (09) [E]
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> As somebody who is a native Low Saxon speaker while also being
> attached to the Danish minority I will first of all, welcome the
> decision from the German goverment to allow bilingual signs in
> Slesvig-Holsten, although correctly they soemtimes may need to be
> tril-lingual as e.g. German-Danish-Frisian or German- Low
> Saxon-Frisian. But it is certainly a step forward and helps to
> conserve our seperate identidy in the whole of Sleswig-Holsten. I am
> pleased that the current government of Sleswig-Holsten has pushed the
> matter forward without any hesitation, this is a far cry from
> CDU-opinions 20 years ago. It certainly helps that prime minister H.P.
> Carstensen is from a rural surrounding in Nordstrand and a Low Saxon
> speaker himself. The matter of bilingual signs in Southern Jutland is
> indeed touchy since the Danish language was oppressed when the area
> was under German rule after 1871 and the memory of the Nazi-occupation
> is still very much alive. It is somewhat similar as if there would be
> a call for bilingual signs in both Flamish and French in the Flemsh
> speaking part of Belgium.
>
> However, the German minority certainly has the right to ask for
> representation because they are there and have been present in
> Southern Jutland for a long time. Another problem is that they are in
> principal the descendends of traders who came to Southern Jutland in
> mideaval times when the Hanseatic league was at the height of its
> power. As such, those traders were originally Low Saxon speaking but
> after becoming isolated from the rest of Low-Saxon-speaking Northern
> Germany they adopted High German as the language among them.
> Subsequently they do not regard themselves as Low Saxons or resp.
> Holsteners in Southern Jutland but simply as Germans and the Danes are
> somewhat reluctant to grant them more rights then necessary for the
> reason mentioned further above.
>
> In addition, since the Napoleonic wars Denmark has been reduced to its
> core which provoked a spirit to defend this core against any
> intruders, no matter what. Though in some ways I understand this it
> has also resulted recently in intolerance and racism as often
> expressed through the Danish People's Party (DF), Karup's comment in
> the article is an obvious hint where those people are coming from.
> Often their taste is not too far away from "Der Stuermer". There is
> also a prevailing opinion in Denmark that immigrants should adopt the
> culture of the host nation if they want to live in Denmark and since
> the Germans in Southern Jutland emigrated once from further south they
> are regarded as the descendents of emigrants who should integrate in
> the Danish society. I often reply if this is valid globally it is
> about time that the European descendents in the Americas, Africa and
> Australia/Oceania start learning the native languages and integrate in
> the native cultures. Now, how many Danes in North America do speak
> then any American-Indian language? Proabably not a single one.
>
> Moreover, the German minority has been there for so long and certainly
> contributed substantially to the wealth of Danish population in
> Southern Jutland that I think they have the right to be represented
> when it comes to signs as well. Often I think the issue would be more
> tolerable to many Danes if the German minority would re-discover their
> Hanseatic roots and with it the Low Saxon language of their
> forefathers, if a request for the bilingual signs would be done for
> adding the Low Saxon versions of the placenames in Southern Jutland
> this would probably be a lot more tolerable to many Danes. The problem
> is, that the Low Saxon forms are often not too different from the
> Danish and in particular Soenderjysk forms. At home we called the city
> of Aabenraa simply "Aap'nraadh", because Apenrade would be pronounced
> like that in our Low Saxon dialect and thus very similar to the Danish
> spelling and pronunciation, although in Soenderjysk it is actually
> pronounced "Affenraa". Haderslev would become "Hadhersleeven" or
> "Haa'rslee", just like Soenderjysk, Soenderborg would be "Sonderborgh"
> and Toender will actually be the German "Tondern". I could imagine if
> the German minority would bring the idea forward that this could ease
> reservations in Denmark, at least among the more liberal minded Danes.
> Whatever will happen now in Soednerjylland, it appears that the
> SH-government is committed to introduce bilingual signs no matter what
> and this is certainly welcomed by all linguistic groups in SH.
>
> Groeten vun
>
> Helge
>
> ----------
>
> From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.26 (09) [E]
>
> Dear Lowlanders!
>
> I have to make another comment to Euroland's article: Their reflection
> of the Jyllands Posten article is actually wrong. Jyllands Posten
> itself has not uttered any opinion about the matter itself (as
> Eurolang claims) but simply reflected opinions of a variety of persons
> they have interviewed and both pro- and contras are very well
> documented while JP refrains of taking sides. Their final comment is
> by H. Juergensens (from the German minority) and calls for a
> constructive and tolerant discussion on the matter. I am somewhat more
> sceptical about the article by "Die Welt", it is a lot more populistic
> and creates the impression that the Danes still hate the Germans, the
> article focusses on the apparent rejection of all Danes to the idea,
> which is not true, according to Jyllands Postens's article. H.
> Juergensen final comment is not present at all! That's a shame. It
> shows how little a newspaper like "Die Welt" understands of Slesvig
> and Holsten. Their article sounds like "The world still hates and
> oppresses the poor Germans" and they have obviously not noticed that
> times have changed and things in Slesvig-Holsten and Soenderjylland
> are moving on, no matter what.
>
> Helge
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com
> Subject: Language politics
>
> Thanks, Mike and Helge!
>
> By the way, Helge, you provided the long-sought answer to why Low
> Saxon ("Low German") seems to be gone from Danish soil.
>
> As for what appears to be Peter Josika's quotes and Die Welt's bias, I
> am copying the editor of Eurolang on this, and am adding, to make it
> abundantly clear a repetition here, and I hope that this matter can be
> followed up on the basis of more reliable sources in Eurolang.
>
> QUOTE: [[I am somewhat more sceptical about the article by "Die Welt", it
is a
> lot more populistic and creates the impression that the Danes still
> hate the Germans, the article focusses on the apparent rejection of
> all Danes to the idea, which is not true, according to Jyllands
> Postens's article. H. Juergensen final comment is not present at all!
> That's a shame. It shows how little a newspaper like "Die Welt"
> understands of Slesvig and Holsten. Their article sounds like "The
> world still hates and oppresses the poor Germans" and they have
> obviously not noticed that times have changed and things in
> Slesvig-Holsten and Soenderjylland are moving on, no matter what.]]
>
[....]
>
> Whatever the truth of the matter may be, the Danish People's Party's
> power gain and general sentiment in this issue seems to go back to the
> "pre-enlightenment" attitude of  "This is country X where we speak
> language X (only)."  We see this here in the US where there are
> English-only movements that are primarily anti-Hispanic and are
> fundamentally opposed to diversity in general (considering that
> throughout history all immigrant families eventually adopted English
> at least as a second language despite the absence of a language
> policy).  While road sign regulation may not seem all that important
> in the great scheme of things, some of what we have been witnessing in
> this young century alone goes to show that no nation, no matter what
> its track record and reputation may be, should consider itself immune
> to embarking on the dangerous path of turning inward and complacent.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
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