From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  1 14:26:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 07:26:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.31 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.NOV.2007.072653.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  31 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (02) [E/]

Re Jonny's film script: Jonny it is brilliant, full of Lowland humor and
pratfalls. You should really try and sell it to Hollywood and of course it
should be spoken in Low Saxon. Thanks again for the belly laugh. Jacqueline

----------

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (02) [E/]

From wim verdoold

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle Netherlands,

Hi,
LoL, I m  not going to respond to the discussion about the word dwalen I
think..hehe

Wim Verdoold.

( van der dole = dole a place to hide  back in the fields, for the ones
guarding the harvest against wild life I m told, hence dolen as being far
from home?  So a dole is a dwelling place alright, a hut against the rain..)

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (02) [E/]
 Haai, Elsie

Subject: LL-L "Etymology

"Om in 'n dwaal te wees"

Ja, Elsie, soos ek skryf het hierdie woord selfs in wesenlike gebruik (ieder
as die figuratief) tot in Wes Australië uitversprei. Daar het my doopvader
die uitdrukking in die laat vyftigerjare teëgekom, sommer dekades voor die
Wêreldwye uitwyking van ons volkie, "We're dwaaling around, y'know, only *we
* say 'walkabout'.

Die Uwe,
Mark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071101/379e0e61/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  1 15:35:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:35:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.01 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.NOV.2007.083533.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to November 2007!

And welcome to all of you who joined or rejoined us since the beginning of
October! At the end of this message is a list of your places of residence.

Folks, please don't forget about our activities:

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
   - Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/ )
   - Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)
   - Lowlands Song Contest (lowlands-l.net/contest/)

I will say things about them in separate messages as the need arises.

Membership:
Please, folks, read and understand the rules and guidelines! It's really
important. You find them at our main website (lowlands-l.net/rules.php).

As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
   your view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.
   2. You must always give us your name, given name and family name.
   3. If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please
   give us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
   something in case we get error messages from that server.
   4. You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L
   wrote:" simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.
   5. Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than
   making up your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please
   make sure "Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.
   6. DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.
   Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their
   names with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting
   is not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
   even if you do not put them right next to each other.

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

   1. Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix
   things up, please.
   2. Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
   responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
   apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.
   3. Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
   response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
   not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
   version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
   relevant to your response.
   4. Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions
   are. If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give
   "Lowlands-L" as the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and
   you owe authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.
   5. Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
   sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.

Address Changes:
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address.

Temporary Absence
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
Lowlands-L lowlands-l.net

***

Welcome to those of you who joined us since 1 October 2007!

   Belgium (België, Belgique, Belgien):
        Flemish Brabant (Vlaams-Brabant):
             Dilbeek [1]
   Canada:
        Ontario:
             Toronto [1]
             Waterloo [1]
   Germany (Deutschland):
        Schleswig-Holstein (Sleswig-Holsteen,
        Slaswik-Holstiinj, Slesvig-Holsten):
             Hemdingen [1]
   Pakistan (پاکستان):
        Punjab (پنجاب):
             Lahore [1] (لاہور ,لہور)
   Puerto Rico:
        Mayagüez:
             San Germán [1]
   South Africa:
        Gauteng:
             Pretoria [1]
   United Kingdom:
        Scotland (Alba):
             Edinburgh (Embro, Dùn Èideann):
                  Edinburgh (Embro, Dùn Èideann) [1]
   United States of America:
        Arizona:
             Tucson [1]
        California:
             Santa Ana [1]
        New York:
             Buffalo [1]
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071101/46c9b5a7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  1 15:43:10 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:43:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.01 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.NOV.2007.084310.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (02) [E/]

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (01) [E/S]

Here is one of the cases where English is richer than Afrikaans in an
ancient survival. Mind you, we have kept 'woon' & its cognates in all the
other Lowlands languages including the Anglo Saxon  & Modern English hasn't.

Yrs,
Mark

We haven't completely lost it, though it's pretty rare now.  The word "wont"
as in " He was wont to visit the pub on Sundays" actually comes from *wunian
*; it now means "accustomed to" or "in the habit of", but it earlier meant
specifically "accustomed to a place". I had an uncle who, on moving to a new
house after decades in an ancient terrace house, said was "gettin' wunted"
to the new one.

Paul

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071101/31059ceb/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  1 23:37:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:37:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.01 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.NOV.2007.163726.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.31 (03) [A/E]

Wim says: ( van der dole = dole a place to hide  back in the fields, for the
ones guarding the harvest against wild life I m told, hence dolen as being
far from home?  So a dole is a dwelling place alright, a hut against the
rain..)

Ah wonderful! I forgot the word "doolhof" which is labyrinth/maze in Dutch.

Wim, ze bouwen hier (VS) doolhoven in de maisvelden om deze tijd van het
jaar! Jacqueline

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071101/2771e0c3/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  2 15:16:43 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:16:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.02 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.NOV.2007.081643.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  02 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.01 (04) [D/E]

Ja leuk!

[Wim Verdoold]

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Jonny,

You wrote:
> thanks for all your interesting thoughts and informations about the
> mystic development of 'to dwell'.
> Meanwhile I'm becoming suspicious that in ancient time there may have
> been two similar words which melted at any point but the etymologicans
> didn't realize.

Yep, etymologists also err sometimes (pun intended :-D ).

Something similar was probably also the case in a Brabantish word for
"wandering":

"(rond-) ra(n)ddolen"

which could be a contamination of:

   * randuinen: Kiliaan (1599) has "randuynen", Currere cum impetu:
     effuse vel profusè currere. /gal. randonner
     /http://www.dbnl.nl/tekst/kili001etym01_01/kili001etym01_01_0026.htm
   * dolen: to wander about

French "randonner" < Germanic "Rand"
http://francois.gannaz.free.fr/Littre/xmlittre.php?requete=r589

Further research brought up that "rand" (border, margin, edge) would
still be in use in some English dialects and "random" (E) is a first
cousin. Also note the South-African currency "rand" < Witwatersrand ~
White-waters-ridge.

Enough "ranting" already...oops, "to rant" may also be related: <
"rand(t)en" (Dutch) < rennen (plus t-suffix), "to run" (E)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Paul,

You wrote:
>
>     Here is one of the cases where English is richer than Afrikaans in
>     an ancient survival. Mind you, we have kept 'woon' & its cognates
>     in all the other Lowlands languages including the Anglo Saxon  &
>     Modern English hasn't.
>
>     Yrs,
>     Mark
>
> We haven't completely lost it, though it's pretty rare now.  The word
> "wont" as in " He was wont to visit the pub on Sundays" actually comes
> from /wunian/; it now means "accustomed to" or "in the habit of", but
> it earlier meant specifically "accustomed to a place". I had an uncle
> who, on moving to a new house after decades in an ancient terrace
> house, said was "gettin' wunted" to the new one.

In Brabantish, we would say that your uncle was "zijn oud huis nog niet
ontwoon". "Gewoon" is an adjective that means "being used to", whereas
"ontwoon" is quite the opposite, "having lost the habit" (note: wonen >
gewoon and (in)habit > have the habit, usus).

The standard noun "gewoonte" often becomes "gewente" in many (Southern)
dialects (< p.p. of "wennen" ?~? wonen).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:
>
> Luc:
>
> OK, I digress, but can the Ural-Altaic language family also be explained
> in terms of one common prehistoric activity?
>
> Wow! "Ural-Altaic"?! Some people still reject the Altaic hypothesis.
> The Ural-Altaic hypothesis, which was en vogue in the early part of
> the 20th century, was at one point deemed "debunked." Despite
> sometimes astonishing morphological similarities and apparent remnants
> of a sound correspondence system, some people vehemently resist any
> type of "unification" attempts, even more so when it involves alleged
> Indo-European connections and older researchers of European descent.
> (I guess you can imagine what happens when unification hypotheses
> involve both Indo-European and African languages, such as the
> Nostratic hypothesis that seeks to link Altaic, Uralic, Indo-European,
> Semitic and Bantu, many including Kartvelian and Dravidian as well,
> leave alone hypotheses that go way beyond that.)

Very interesting articles in "Eurasisches Magazin" on this matter:

   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=713
   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=30603
   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=121003
   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=101703
   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=20040313

Too bad they still use the term "Indogermanisch" though; or would that
be 'cause some view it like a brandname, once tagged by German scientists?

One of the articles reflects on what could possibly be the "Urheimat" of
all Germanic peoples. Prof. Jürgen Udolph considered names for rivers to
be the oldest linguistic layer and apparently found the biggest density
just north of the Mittelgebirge (and not in Scandinavia or
Schleswig-Holstein). If this is true, it would mean that Scandinavia got
populated by people migrating from south to north (and not the other way
round like I had always believed)!

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Luc!

Thanks for those interesting links. I looked at them briefly, will have to
read them in detail later, and I hope other that read German will too. As
you can see, I am not the only person that talks about Eurasia.

You wrote:

The standard noun "gewoonte" often becomes "gewente" in many (Southern)
dialects (< p.p. of "wennen" ?~? wonen).

Yes, this is interesting, isn't it? In Low Saxon, the root of the verb
meaning 'to reside' is waan- (wanen, wahnen, wohnen, waonen, etc.), to that
of 'to accustom' is wen- (wennen).

Ik waan achter d'n dyk.
(Ik wahn achter'n Diek.)
I live behind the dike.

Sey wil geyrn in dey stad wanen.
(Se will geern in de Stadt wahnen.)
She'd love to live in the city.

Hey har lang up'n landen waand.
(He harr lang up'n Lannen wahnt.)
He had lived in the country for a long time.

Daar bün ik nich an wend.
(Daar bün ik nich an wennt.)
I'm not accustomed to that.

Dat schulst d' dy af-wennen.
(Dat schullst di afwennen.)
You ought to kick that habit.

So there seems to be a disconnect. Right? Different vowels, which could be
the result of umlauting, and a long vowel versus a short vowel.

Old Saxon has wonōn as one of the verbs for 'to reside'. It has giwono for
'accustomed' and giwono or giwonohêd for 'habit', but then it has wennianand gi
wennian for 'to accustom'. This looks like umlauting and shortening. Compare
German wohnen 'to reside', Gewohnheit 'habit' versus gewöhnen 'accustomed',
but Old German giwonan 'to reside', giwona,  gewonaheit 'habit', and wennenand
giwennen 'to accustom', Old Low Franconian wonen 'to reside' versus wennen
'to accustom', and Old English wuna, gewuna 'habit', gewuna 'acquired
habit', wun, gewun, gewuna 'accustomed', wennan, wenian, gewennan,
gewenian'to accustom'. Old Frisian may be shedding some more light on
this:
wennia, wunia 'to reside', wana, wenhêd, wenichêd, wenithe, wunichêd'habit',
wun, wunich 'accustomed', wenna 'accustom', similarly Old Norse (which does
not have a cognate for 'to reside') vandi, vani, venja 'habit',
vanr'accustomed',
venja 'accustom'.

This makes it look as though some sort of ancient vowel alternation applied,
also that within this group "custom" and "habit" preceded "residing."

Have a nice weekend!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071102/45a93863/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  2 16:38:37 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:38:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.02 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.NOV.2007.093837.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

Since yesterday I have been receiving what looks like delivery failure
messages with reference to all Yahoo addresses on our list.

After each address there is this tag:

Deferred: 452 Too many recipients <<< 452 Too many recipients

At the end there is mention about "white-listing", but I don't know what
that means:

X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (
listserv.linguistlist.org [164.76.102.107])

I'm afraid our listserver's address got on the Yahoo SPAM list, but I'm not
sure this is so. There is always a risk of this if even one person
consistently hits the SPAM button upon receipt of our mail. I know that some
people have done so in the past. It's a really aggressive and nasty
alternative to unsubscribing.

The complicating factor is that Yahoo is one of those companies that has
grown too big for its breeches and is thus very difficult to communicate and
work with when it comes to things like this.

Here's my request.

If you are subscribed via a Yahoo address, please be so kind as to let me
know (at <lowlands.list at gmail.com> under "Yahoo address") if you have been
getting LL-L mail yesterday and today. (So far today, there has been one
"Etymology" issue.)

If you respond to this and have more to contribute, something that may be of
interest to the membership at large, please respond in the form of a posting
submission (as usual).

Thanks in advance.

I can say that I have received all issues at my subscribed Yahoo address. So
I don't know what all this is about. Any ideas?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071102/3e96fdd2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov  3 04:08:02 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:08:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.02 (03) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.NOV.2007.210802.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 October 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.02 (01) [D/E]

Dear Lowlanders,



It is a very exciting time to be alive. There are so many investigators
around the world opening our minds to what is happening. What I write here
may seem like a series of disjointed facts and opinions, but in my mind, all
relate to a unitary origin of human language.



Luc Hellinckx quoted a communication from R. F. Hahn about some of  approaches
to this subject and added 5 links to articles in "Eurasische Magazin" on the
topic.



The first of these begins:



In der Bibel im ersten Buch Mose wird erzählt, die Menschen hätten zur Zeit
der „Erschaffung der Welt" mit „einerlei Sprache und Zunge" geredet.



I have always believed that the myths and legends of ancient scriptures
around the world reflect realities that need to be investigated.



Further, in a private letter to me, Victor H. Mair expressed the opinion
that ancient Chinese and Sanskrit either came from a common language, or one
came from the other. He edits the "Sino-Platonic Papers", which published a
monograph by Tsung-tung Chang you can find at:



http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp007_old_chinese.pdf



Here Chang juxtaposes Bernhard Karlgren's four periods in the development of
the Chinese language with lots of Julius Pokorny's "Indogermanisches
Etymologisches Wörterbuch"— pages and pages of correspondences of stems
between the two language families in tabular form.



In Robin Dunbar, "The Human Story" 2004 ISBN 0-571-22303-6, language appears
first in Homo sapiens half a million years ago, based on the size of
foramina in the skull, use of tools, burial practices and other
anthropological observations. He associates language with laughter. Chimps
have something like laughter during play, but when a human tells a joke,
teller and audience release endorphins in each of their brains, rewarding
everybody, improving their health and ability to cope. He emphasizes
"intentionality" or "theory of mind" or "mind-reading" in relation to the
beginning of language and religion. If I tell you what I think you want to
hear, that's second degree intentionality. If I tell something to you,
because I think you will tell Susie and that will change her behavior to me,
that's fourth degree. To organize a religion one needs fifth or higher
degree, to participate, fourth.



It's long been known that creole languages around the world—let me make an
aside: creole languages arise where people are transported to other lands
and have no opportunity to speak their native language. This has usually
occurred under conditions of slavery. The slaves are ordered about in the
master's language and they learn the meaning of the commands via the whip.
These unfortunates have invented languages using terms from the masters'
speech, but have elaborated them into a language that seems to obey the
neuroscience of the Homo sapiens brain, rather than any known language.



That is, they—whether orientals in Hawai'i or Africans in the Caribbean, and
I guess that includes the Gullah Dialect of southeastern US, too, quickly
develop an aspective, tenseless language that satisfies their needs. And it
comes right out of their human brains!



Mitochondrial DNA (female inheritance) and Y chromosome studies (male
inheritance) correlate with migration out of Africa and the spread of
agriculture across the temperate zone, both activities unthinkable without
language.



http://www.archaeology.org/9609/abstracts/dna.html



The Eve study examined mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), which is passed only by
mothers to their offspring. The researchers, Rebecca Cann, Mark Stoneking,
and the late Allan Wilson, estimated that the ancestor of all surviving mt
DNA types lived between 140,000 and 290,000 years ago. When did the
migrations from Africa take place? They dated the oldest cluster of mtDNA
types with no modern African representation to between 90,000 and 180,000
years ago. These populations might have left Africa at about that time, but
the mtDNA data could not determine exactly when.



Of particular interest to Lowlanders might be Bryan Sykes popular book
"Saxons, Vikings, and Celts", 2006, ISBN 13:978-0-393-06268-7 and his
website http://www.bloodoftheisles.net. He traces the inheritance of
subjects in the British Isles: mtDNA to seven matriarchs and Y-chromosomes
to five patriarchs. The oldest British mtDNA comes from a matriarch of
45,000 years ago, apparently living in the area of Greece and given by Sykes
the name of Ursula. Their commonest mtDNA comes from a matriarch of 20,000
years ago. Sykes summarizes by saying that the Brits are basically Celts.



Jorge Potter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071102/0507d7ac/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov  3 18:32:13 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:32:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.03 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.NOV.2007.113213.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  03 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.02 (02) [E]

 Beste Ron,

Du schreyvst:

After each address there is this tag:

Deferred: 452 Too many recipients <<< 452 Too many recipients

At the end there is mention about "white-listing", but I don't know what
that means:

X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0
(listserv.linguistlist.org[164.76.102.107
])

Have a look here- might be it helps:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelist

Allerbest!
Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Thanks a lot, Jonny. That did help a lot. Apparently, it's a good thing
being whitelisted.

It looks as though our subscribers with Yahoo accounts have been getting
their LL-L.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071103/172e592b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov  3 23:33:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 16:33:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.03 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.NOV.2007.163307.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  03 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.26 (06) [E/LS]

24.10.2007 schrayv Heiko Evermann:
 > Wat is en Siedlung, op Platt ...

Beste Heiko,

proofreading "Mittelniederdeutsches Handwörterbuch" of August Lübben
I found another exammple of "Siedlung" in LS:

"an-sedel (anesetel), m. Ansiedelung,
habitatio, domicilium."

Best wishes,
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071103/c5c4d801/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  4 05:09:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:09:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.NOV.2007.220953.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  03 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
Subject: origin of 'Schore"

Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England in
Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of Schore.
 I am not a linguist, but I have found the following information from
various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on the validity of what I
have gathered:

*A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish, shallow
water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There are also inland
marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt level because of
evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is described as a Dutch word
that refers to that part of a salt marsh covered by high tides.  'Schore' is
an example of a Low Saxon loanword.  It is one of several words from the
areas of shipping and trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon
language of the Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an
alliance of trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly
over the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of Northern
Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early modern period,
between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant language of trade was
Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a dialect with significant impact
for countries involved in the trade, particularly the larger Scandinavian
languages. Middle Low Saxon and Middle Dutch have many identical words, the
separation between the two languages was not as clear at the time as it is
now, and the British Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and
Hanseatic traders and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English
could be from either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected <
_schore_'?', cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
land','cliff', 'bluff').*

Thanks very much Lowlanders,

Ted Shore

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Welcome to the neighborhood, Ted!

That looks like a difficult one there because of all the possibilities which
you have already explored.

Let's see what folks come up with.

Middle Dutch and Middle Saxon are indeed both candidates when it comes to
many Continental Germanic loans in English. Also, at the time the two
languages were regarded as being on a continuum, pretty much as dialects of
one language. Dutch speakers tended to refer to Middle Saxon and Early
Modern Low Saxon as *Oostersch* (Eastern), besides *Saksisch*.

At any rate, it's great you joined us.

Regards.
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071103/1451e3d5/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  4 18:19:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:19:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.NOV.2007.111955.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

Ted wrote:
Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England in
Lincolnshire.

Don't like to be pedantic (really!) but Lincolnshire is on the east coast of
England

solidly 'Germanic' in medieval times whereas the west coast still retained
populations of non-germanic speakers.

Heather [Randall]

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
 > From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England in
Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of Schore.

a - De Brabandere, "Woordenboek van de familienamen in België en
Noord-Frankrijk", Grondig herziene en vermeerdere uitgave, Veen, 2003, gives
(*family names in Belgium*):

Schoor, van: van Schoor(e)n, van Schoren, Wansc(h)oor:
P!N Schoor (NL),
      in Hoegaarden (VB)
      of Broechem (A);
      Schore (WV,Z).
Zie ook: Verschoor(e)
1218 Johannes de Score
1220 Erlebaldus miles de Scora
1261 Thirinus de Scora = 1263 Tieren van Score, WV (DF XIV)
1326 Gillis van Scoren, Ip. (BEELE)
1433 Heinric van Score; Kh (DEKEYSER)

A Province of Antwerp (Belgium)
NL Province of Limburg (Netherlands)
VB Province of Flemish Brabant (Belgium)
WV Province of West-Flanders  (Belgium)
Z Province of Zeeland (Netherlands)

b - Further, from:
Herbillon & Germain, Dictionnaire des noms de famile en Belgique romane,
1996, Crédit Communal, vol 2:

*Frequency of families in Belgium* (and split-up per province).
Families are only listed when more than 100 families with exactly the same
orthography for the very same name are occuring in BElgium=

De Sc(h)o(o)r(e): not listed
Schoorens: 119 (Belgium), of which 56 (East-Flanders)
Schoors: 378 (Belgium), of which 252 (Antwerp)
Van Schoor: 472 (Belgium), of which 207 (Antwerp), 158 (East-Flanders)
Vanschooren: 119 (Belgium), of which 104 (Belg. Limburg)

Pse be aware that due to name translations between Dutch, French and Latin
the prefixes "de" and "van" are often interchanged in "Belgium ancien
régime". Orthography was not consistent, but an on the spot transcription of
the spoken name.

c - Cf. Also schor in the WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal), pasted
from the CDROM
(Dictionary of *16th-19th century Dutch*):

*SCHOR (I) — SCHORRE* —, znw. vr. en onz. Mnl. *schor,* onz., *schorre,* vr.
en onz. (?), mnd. *schor(e),* onz., ook kust, oever, m. eng. *schore,* eng.
*shore,* kust, oever. Van denzelfden stam als Scheren (I), verg. ook SCHAAR
(VI) en SCHOOR.
) Buitendijksche aangeslibde grond, onbedijkte (en bij hoog water
onderloopende) aangeslibde kleibank. || Dat de *scorren* ligghende buuten
zeedycken ghemeene metter zee, staende of gheweest hebbende ter ghifte ofte
disposicie vanden grave ..., gherekent ende ghehouden zyn over catheil,
Cost. Vrije v. Brugge 1, 760 (aº. 1522). Dat my meest voordeel gaf, dat quam
my van het dijcken, Als wy den souten stroom bedwongen om te wijcken: Hier
kocht ick *schorren* toe of lang verdroncken lant, CATS 3, 61 b. Eensdeels
op den dyk, eensdeels beneevens dien op het *schor*, HOOFT, N. H. 1171. (Een
man) die des avonds een fuik in de Meer gezet hadde, aan 't* schor* van het
land, LEEGHWATER, HaarlemmerMeerb. § 4. Ick hebbe wel op gorsingen
ofte *schorren
*geweest daer geen creecken en waeren, VIERLINGH, Tract. v. Dyck. 5. Men
vind voor deeze Landen nog verscheide banken, die by laag water droog
liggen, en aldaar met den naam van *Schorren* bekend staan, waar onder
de *schorren
van Strijen* de voornaamsten zyn, BERKHEY, N. H. 1, 12. Zijne onderneming
der bedijking der *Goereesche schorren*, BILD., Br. 4, 135. Indijking van *
schorren* of buitengronden, droogmaking van meren, waren (vóór de veertiende
eeuw) onbekend, G. DE VRIES, Holl. Noorderkw. 5. Kwelders, *schorren*,
aanwassen en slikken, Versl. Landb. 1910, 4, 4.
— Op hooge en grazige *schorren* worden schapen geweid. || Op de*
schorren*mijne Schapen Vinde ick in een groot getal, HONDIUS,
Moufeschans 277. Moet
onsen acker dor staen; En Boomgaard aan den quijn: Sal 't schaap niet weer
ter *schorr *gaan, V. LODENSTEYN, Uytsp. 309. ...

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071104/43d0e8d8/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  4 21:10:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:10:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (02) [D]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.NOV.2007.141008.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

Beste Ted, Ron en allen,
Een schorre is inderdaad een stuk land dat buitendijks, zou en op de zee
gewonnen kan zijn. Wordt het nog regelmatig door zeewater overspoeld dan is
het een slikke.
De Oostendse sportvelden hebben de naam De Schorre.
Interessant voor jou, Ted, is dat er op korte afstand van de zee, ten zuiden
van de lijn Nieuwpoort-Oostende, een polderdorp is dat Schore heet. De
familienamen Verschore, Verschoore, Verschooren, Verschorre,  Van Schoor,
Vanschoors, komen bij ons veelvuldig voor!
De Hanzeatische Liga kende vele belangrijke medesteden zoals Lübeck (HL),
Bremen (HB), Hamburg (HH) en bij ons Brugge. Als ik het mij goed herinner
was de hoofdplaats evenwel Bergen in huidig Noorwegen!
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck, Oostende in West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Genealogy

Beste Roland,

De hoofdstad (en "koningin") van de Hanzeatische Liga in het oorspronkelijk
gebied was Lübeck. Bergen was een van de hoofdkantoren (praktisch
ambassades) buiten het Hanzeatische gebied. De andere hoofdkantoren waren in
Brugge, Londen (Steelyard) en Novgorod.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071104/d0c1bf7b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 06:47:32 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:47:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.04 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.NOV.2007.224732.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at gmail.com >

Dear Lowlanders,

there has been some historic discussions in Cornwall. After a long division
into 4 competing orthographies those 300+ people who can speak this language

had finally agreed to a commission to sort things out. This commission has
now made its recommendation for a "Single Written Form" (SWF): Kernewek
Dasunys (http://dasunys.net/)

More news on this topic in
http://cornishstannaryparliament.co.uk//resources//article.php?story=20071018164441653
or
http://dasunys.net/negys.htm
Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071104/79484c39/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 06:49:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:49:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.04 (04) [A]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.NOV.2007.224948.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Haai julle,

En nou wonder ek of die Afrikaanse woord 'skor' (hees of rasperige stem)
die verband hou met 'schorre' nie, en in die sin dat die oorspronklike
woordbetekenis dalk 'grof' / 'nie glad' beteken?

Elsie Zinsser

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071104/8fb7876b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 15:21:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:21:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.072153.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (02) [D]

Op zondag 04-11-2007 om 14:10 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Lowlands-L
List:
> From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
>
> Beste Ted, Ron en allen,
> Een schorre is inderdaad een stuk land dat buitendijks, zou en op de
> zee gewonnen kan zijn. Wordt het nog regelmatig door zeewater
> overspoeld dan is het een slikke.
> De Oostendse sportvelden hebben de naam De Schorre.
> Interessant voor jou, Ted, is dat er op korte afstand van de zee, ten
> zuiden van de lijn Nieuwpoort-Oostende, een polderdorp is dat Schore
> heet. De familienamen Verschore, Verschoore, Verschooren, Verschorre,
>  Van Schoor, Vanschoors, komen bij ons veelvuldig voor!
> De Hanzeatische Liga kende vele belangrijke medesteden zoals Lübeck
> (HL), Bremen (HB), Hamburg (HH) en bij ons Brugge. Als ik het mij goed
> herinner was de hoofdplaats evenwel Bergen in huidig Noorwegen!
> Toetnoasteki,
> Roland Desnerck, Oostende in West-Vlaanderen

Ook in Zuid Beveland (Zeeland) ligt een plaatsje Schore.
Grtz,
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/d34d5867/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 15:52:24 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:52:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.075224.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.04 (04) [A]

Hi!

Schor ( skor) Means I think your voice feels like it has been sand dusted
with sand paper

Schuren, (to sandpaper a piece of wood),

Wim [Verdoold]

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle nederland

-----------

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

> From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
>
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England
> in Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of
> Schore.  I am not a linguist, but I have found the following
> information from various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on
> the validity of what I have gathered:
>
> A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish,
> shallow water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There are
> also inland marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt
> level because of evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is
> described as a Dutch word that refers to that part of a salt marsh
> covered by high tides.  'Schore' is an example of a Low Saxon
> loanword.  It is one of several words from the areas of shipping and
> trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon language of the
> Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an alliance of
> trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly over
> the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of
> Northern Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early
> modern period, between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant
> language of trade was Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a
> dialect with significant impact for countries involved in the trade,
> particularly the larger Scandinavian languages. Middle Low Saxon and
> Middle Dutch have many identical words, the separation between the two
> languages was not as clear at the time as it is now, and the British
> Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and Hanseatic traders
> and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English could be from
> either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected < _schore_'?',
> cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
> land','cliff', 'bluff').
>
> Thanks very much Lowlanders,
>
> Ted Shore

 In Zeelandic and Flemish, schor is an intertidal area that only some
times a month is flooded (around full and dark moon).

Slik, another intertidal area is flooded every day and is situated
between lowtide and hightide.(In the north slikken are wadden)
It is interesting that schorre and slikke also are used in French.

In the dutch provinces Noord Brabant and Zuid Holland schor is named:
gors. In the north of Netherland the same area has the name kwelder.

An inlet in these intertidal area's is here in Zeeland called a kreek /
kreke (E:creek). In the north it's a priel.

Regards
Jakob(Jaap)
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ah, Wim! You may have nailed it. Ever since Elsie asked her question about
Afrikaans skor I've been twisting and wring my little brain and was still
mystified.

If your hypothesis is correct, then this is a cognate of the following, all
with the meaning 'to scour', 'to rub hard in order to clean or shine':

Modern Low Saxon: *schuyrn* (schüürn, *schüern*)
Middle Saxon: *schûren*
Modern Dutch: *schuren*, *schuieren*
Middle Dutch: *schûren*
Modern German: *scheuern * (< MS?)
Modern English:* *to scour (< MD/MS?)
Middle English: *scoure*, *scowre*, *skoure*
Danish:* skure* (< MS?)
Middle Swedish: *skura* (< MS?)

The people of the *Oxford English Dictionary* suspect that Middle Dutch
and/or Middle Saxon developed *schûren *from Old French *escurer* (> Modern
French *écurer*), probably from Vulgar Latin *excurare* (> Medieval *escurare,
scurare*), based on *cura* 'care' which in Medieval Latin also came to mean
'to clean'.

I would have made the leap if the word had been **skuur *or **skuir *in
Afrikaans.

Jaap, in Low Saxon of Germany, *slik* (*Slick*) means 'mud', 'silt',
'slime', also 'mudflat'; same for German *Schlick* (< Low Saxon?, for
otherwise I'd expect **Schlich*). These are related to English "slick" and
"sleek".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/df3f80dd/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 15:55:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:55:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]
In-Reply-To: <57c981290711050752t45b4f1bdj713db312dffa41b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.075507.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.04 (04) [A]

Hi!

Schor ( skor) Means I think your voice feels like it has been sand dusted
with sand paper

Schuren, (to sandpaper a piece of wood),

Wim [Verdoold]

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle nederland

-----------

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

> From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca >
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
>
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England
> in Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of
> Schore.  I am not a linguist, but I have found the following
> information from various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on
> the validity of what I have gathered:
>
> A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish,
> shallow water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There are
> also inland marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt
> level because of evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is
> described as a Dutch word that refers to that part of a salt marsh
> covered by high tides.  'Schore' is an example of a Low Saxon
> loanword.  It is one of several words from the areas of shipping and
> trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon language of the
> Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an alliance of
> trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly over
> the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of
> Northern Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early
> modern period, between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant
> language of trade was Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a
> dialect with significant impact for countries involved in the trade,
> particularly the larger Scandinavian languages. Middle Low Saxon and
> Middle Dutch have many identical words, the separation between the two
> languages was not as clear at the time as it is now, and the British
> Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and Hanseatic traders
> and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English could be from
> either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected < _schore_'?',
> cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
> land','cliff', 'bluff').
>
> Thanks very much Lowlanders,
>
> Ted Shore

 In Zeelandic and Flemish, schor is an intertidal area that only some
times a month is flooded (around full and dark moon).

Slik, another intertidal area is flooded every day and is situated
between lowtide and hightide.(In the north slikken are wadden)
It is interesting that schorre and slikke also are used in French.

In the dutch provinces Noord Brabant and Zuid Holland schor is named:
gors. In the north of Netherland the same area has the name kwelder.

An inlet in these intertidal area's is here in Zeeland called a kreek /
kreke (E:creek). In the north it's a priel.

Regards
Jakob(Jaap)
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ah, Wim! You may have nailed it. Ever since Elsie asked her question about
Afrikaans skor I've been twisting and wring my little brain and was still
mystified.

If your hypothesis is correct, then this is a cognate of the following, all
with the meaning 'to scour', 'to rub hard in order to clean or shine':

Modern Low Saxon: *schuyrn* (schüürn, *schüern* )
Middle Saxon: *schûren*
Modern Dutch: *schuren*, * schuieren*
Middle Dutch: *schûren*
Modern German: *scheuern * (< MS?)
Modern English:* *to scour (< MD/MS?)
Middle English: *scoure*, *scowre* , *skoure*
Danish:* skure* (< MS?)
Middle Swedish: *skura* (< MS?)

The people of the *Oxford English Dictionary* suspect that Middle Dutch
and/or Middle Saxon developed *schûren *from Old French *escurer* (> Modern
French *écurer*), probably from Vulgar Latin * excurare* (> Medieval *escurare,
scurare*), based on *cura* 'care' which in Medieval Latin also came to mean
'to clean'.

I would have made the leap if the word had been **skuur *or **skuir *in
Afrikaans.

Jaap, in Low Saxon of Germany, *slik* (*Slick*) means 'mud', 'silt',
'slime', also 'mudflat'; same for German *Schlick* (< Low Saxon?, for
otherwise I'd expect ** Schlich*). These are related to English "slick" and
"sleek".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/b3eb7ea7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 15:56:37 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:56:37 -0800
Subject: Fwd: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]
In-Reply-To: <57c981290711050752t45b4f1bdj713db312dffa41b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.075637.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.04 (04) [A]

Hi!

Schor ( skor) Means I think your voice feels like it has been sand dusted
with sand paper

Schuren, (to sandpaper a piece of wood),

Wim [Verdoold]

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle nederland

-----------

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

> From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca >
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
>
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England
> in Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of
> Schore.  I am not a linguist, but I have found the following
> information from various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on
> the validity of what I have gathered:
>
> A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish,
> shallow water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There are
> also inland marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt
> level because of evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is
> described as a Dutch word that refers to that part of a salt marsh
> covered by high tides.  'Schore' is an example of a Low Saxon
> loanword.  It is one of several words from the areas of shipping and
> trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon language of the
> Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an alliance of
> trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly over
> the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of
> Northern Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early
> modern period, between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant
> language of trade was Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a
> dialect with significant impact for countries involved in the trade,
> particularly the larger Scandinavian languages. Middle Low Saxon and
> Middle Dutch have many identical words, the separation between the two
> languages was not as clear at the time as it is now, and the British
> Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and Hanseatic traders
> and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English could be from
> either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected < _schore_'?',
> cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
> land','cliff', 'bluff').
>
> Thanks very much Lowlanders,
>
> Ted Shore

 In Zeelandic and Flemish, schor is an intertidal area that only some
times a month is flooded (around full and dark moon).

Slik, another intertidal area is flooded every day and is situated
between lowtide and hightide.(In the north slikken are wadden)
It is interesting that schorre and slikke also are used in French.

In the dutch provinces Noord Brabant and Zuid Holland schor is named:
gors. In the north of Netherland the same area has the name kwelder.

An inlet in these intertidal area's is here in Zeeland called a kreek /
kreke (E:creek). In the north it's a priel.

Regards
Jakob(Jaap)
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ah, Wim! You may have nailed it. Ever since Elsie asked her question about
Afrikaans skor I've been twisting and wring my little brain and was still
mystified.

If your hypothesis is correct, then this is a cognate of the following, all
with the meaning 'to scour', 'to rub hard in order to clean or shine':

Modern Low Saxon: *schuyrn* (schüürn, *schüern* )
Middle Saxon: *schûren*
Modern Dutch: *schuren*, * schuieren*
Middle Dutch: *schûren*
Modern German: *scheuern * (< MS?)
Modern English:* *to scour (< MD/MS?)
Middle English: *scoure*, *scowre* , *skoure*
Danish:* skure* (< MS?)
Middle Swedish: *skura* (< MS?)

The people of the *Oxford English Dictionary* suspect that Middle Dutch
and/or Middle Saxon developed *schûren *from Old French *escurer* (> Modern
French *écurer*), probably from Vulgar Latin * excurare* (> Medieval *escurare,
scurare*), based on *cura* 'care' which in Medieval Latin also came to mean
'to clean'.

I would have made the leap if the word had been **skuur *or **skuir *in
Afrikaans.

Jaap, in Low Saxon of Germany, *slik* (*Slick*) means 'mud', 'silt',
'slime', also 'mudflat'; same for German *Schlick* (< Low Saxon?, for
otherwise I'd expect ** Schlich*). These are related to English "slick" and
"sleek".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/663be3ca/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 02:14:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 18:14:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.181400.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Tatum <ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (01) [D/E]

Hi all,
Heather wrote:
> Don't like to be pedantic (really!) but Lincolnshire is on the east
> coast of England
>
> solidly 'Germanic' in medieval times whereas the west coast still
> retained populations of non-germanic speakers.

But I think I've heard that it was still celtic speaking in east anglia
when saint Guthlac was travelling there, despite Raedwald et al. do the
dark ages count as medieval? I'm very doubtful about how much we
actually know of our history at this time, our sources seem to be late
and mostly contradicted by archaeology, though the old adage about
absence of evidence (eg of invasion :) is not evidence of absence applies.

TTFN, Paul Tatum.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/036919a9/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 02:12:22 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 18:12:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.181222.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]

> From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
>
> > From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: origin of 'Schore"
> >
> > Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England
> > in Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins
> of
> > Schore.  I am not a linguist, but I have found the following
> > information from various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on
> > the validity of what I have gathered:
> >
> > A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish,
> > shallow water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There
> are
> > also inland marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt
> > level because of evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is
> > described as a Dutch word that refers to that part of a salt marsh
> > covered by high tides.  'Schore' is an example of a Low Saxon
> > loanword.  It is one of several words from the areas of shipping and
> > trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon language of the
> > Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an alliance
> of
> > trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly over
> > the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of
> > Northern Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early
> > modern period, between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant
> > language of trade was Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a
> > dialect with significant impact for countries involved in the trade,
> > particularly the larger Scandinavian languages. Middle Low Saxon and
> > Middle Dutch have many identical words, the separation between the
> two
> > languages was not as clear at the time as it is now, and the British
> > Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and Hanseatic
> traders
> > and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English could be
> from
> > either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected < _schore_'?',
> > cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
> > land','cliff', 'bluff').
> >
> > Thanks very much Lowlanders,
> >
> > Ted Shore
>
>  In Zeelandic and Flemish, schor is an intertidal area that only some
> times a month is flooded (around full and dark moon).
>
> Slik, another intertidal area is flooded every day and is situated
> between lowtide and hightide.(In the north slikken are wadden)
> It is interesting that schorre and slikke also are used in French.
>
> In the dutch provinces Noord Brabant and Zuid Holland schor is named:
> gors. In the north of Netherland the same area has the name kwelder.
>
> An inlet in these intertidal area's is here in Zeeland called a
> kreek /
> kreke (E:creek). In the north it's a priel.
>
> Regards
> Jakob(Jaap)
> --
> Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Ah, Wim! You may have nailed it. Ever since Elsie asked her question
> about Afrikaans skor I've been twisting and wring my little brain and
> was still mystified.
>
> If your hypothesis is correct, then this is a cognate of the
> following, all with the meaning 'to scour', 'to rub hard in order to
> clean or shine':
>
> Modern Low Saxon: schuyrn (schüürn, schüern)
> Middle Saxon: schûren
> Modern Dutch: schuren, schuieren
> Middle Dutch: schûren
> Modern German: scheuern (< MS?)
> Modern English: to scour (< MD/MS?)
> Middle English: scoure, scowre, skoure
> Danish: skure (< MS?)
> Middle Swedish: skura (< MS?)
>
> The people of the Oxford English Dictionary suspect that Middle Dutch
> and/or Middle Saxon developed schûren from Old French escurer (>
> Modern French écurer), probably from Vulgar Latin excurare (> Medieval
> escurare, scurare), based on cura 'care' which in Medieval Latin also
> came to mean 'to clean'.
>
> I would have made the leap if the word had been *skuur or *skuir in
> Afrikaans.
>
> Jaap, in Low Saxon of Germany, slik (Slick) means 'mud', 'silt',
> 'slime', also 'mudflat'; same for German Schlick (< Low Saxon?, for
> otherwise I'd expect *Schlich). These are related to English "slick"
> and "sleek".
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
In deze tijd van het jaar zijn in Zeeland waarschuwingsboeden langs de
weg te vinden met de tekst: Slik op de weg. Slik heeft daar dus de
betekenis van modder. In de zee hebben we slikken opgebouwd uit fijn
sediment en platen die zandiger zijn.
Groeten,

Jaap
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/ed39d50f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 15:37:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:37:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.NOV.2007.073735.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]

Hi all

But skuur exists in the meanings rub, scrape, scrub scour.
Is skoorsteen not then related to these?

Elsie Zinsser

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071106/871519b2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 15:40:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:40:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.06 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.NOV.2007.074047.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.05 (04) [E]

From: Paul Tatum < ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (01) [D/E]

But I think I've heard that it was still celtic speaking in east anglia
when saint Guthlac was travelling there, despite Raedwald et al. do the
dark ages count as medieval? I'm very doubtful about how much we
actually know of our history at this time, our sources seem to be late
and mostly contradicted by archaeology, though the old adage about
absence of evidence (eg of invasion :) is not evidence of absence applies.

TTFN, Paul Tatum.
********************************************************************** Seems
unlikely, other than perhaps a few pockets; the missionary activity afer all
was aimed at the Germanic pagans; the celtic speakers were Christians
anyway.   True we can never know for certain, but that argument cuts both
ways; and I'm not sure I'd agree that sources are "mostly contradicted by
archaeology"; the archaeology tends to be rejected if it doesn't fit a
popular model.  The current popular flavour regarding archaeological
evidence of Germanic settlement is that Celtic artifacts prove Celtic
peoples, Germanic artifacts prove Celtic peoples who were pretending to be
Germans.  The same apparently applies to language.   Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.05 (04) [E]

Paul Tatum wrote
I'm very doubtful about how much we
actually know of our history at this time, our sources seem to be late
and mostly contradicted by archaeology, though the old adage about
absence of evidence (eg of invasion :) is not evidence of absence applies.

I think you are probably very right! And for every definite statement about
history, someone can produce evidence or suggestion of the opposite or
something else! So perhaps I should ahve left it as - lincoln is on the east
coast. At least that is something to be sure about!

As I am a great 'Eccles' fan, I shouldn't have used the expression 'solidly
germanic'.
['eccles' is usually thought to be derived from eglwys = Celtic for church
and therefore an indication of a strong enough celtic christian community to
'survive' any invasion / overwhelming/ foreign immigration / upper
take-over. And there are plenty of Eccles on the east coast!

Heather [Randall]

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071106/f92893f7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 20:34:17 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:34:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.NOV.2007.123417.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (01) [E]

> From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]
>
> Hi all
>
> But skuur exists in the meanings rub, scrape, scrub
> scour.
> Is skoorsteen not then related to these?
>
> Elsie Zinsser

Ach, Elsie:

Een wijze vrouw [genaamd Elsie] kan meer vragen dan
Theo kan beantwoorden.
Bij dit geval herinner ik me dat men 'schoorsteen'
laat vallen in de woordfamilie van 'schoren' =
steunen, stutten [bouwtechnisch] = eng. shore.
Er moet bij dit 'schoren' zeker wel een zuidafr.
parallel zijn.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From:Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (01) [E]

Hi Elsie, "Schoorsteen" is derived from the verb "schoren" which means
something like "to hold upright" If you build a schoorsteen in the middle of
your house (hovel is maybe a better choice of words here) it will keep
standing. There is also a word "scheerlijn" which means a line used to keep
a  sail straight.

I remember a fatal invention of a "scheerlijn" which my friend Loes and I
applied between the two tent poles of our tent to keep the top flyer from
sagging onto the tent proper. We did this so that the inner tent would
remain dry in case of rain.. We were "camping" in the dunes of the Isle of
Texel. Unfortunately it started raining. The string shrunk and finally
broke. The whole tent (which we had baptized the "Zwangere Zeug" ) collapsed
and left us in a puddle. We had to flee to the hotel where my parents were
staying. My father used the opportunity to give me a lecture in mechanics,
my mother ordered hot chocolate.

I do not know whether "schoor" as wet-land outside the dikes and "schoor" as
in schoorsteen have anything to do with each other.

I would not be surprised. Jacqueline

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071106/f7557718/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  7 04:24:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 20:24:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.06 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.NOV.2007.202433.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ted <tedshore at sympatico.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (01) [D/E]

Thanks Roger.  Any chance to have this email below translated into English?

There seems to be divergence from 'Schore' as related to shore, body of
water, etc.  and 'Score', 'Scora' which seems to be related to scoring of a
surface, and the sandpaper references 'Skor'.   Is it the difference between
the soft and hard - 'sh' verses 'sk'.  different words = different meanings?

The derivation of the byname Shore is from those who 'lived by the Shore'.

The name's origin  appears to be more north of East Anglia - Mercia and
Northumbria..

Ted Shore

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
 > From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the *east* cost of England in
Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of Schore.

 a - De Brabandere, "Woordenboek van de familienamen in België en
Noord-Frankrijk", Grondig herziene en vermeerdere uitgave, Veen, 2003, gives
(*family names in Belgium*):

Schoor, van: van Schoor(e)n, van Schoren, Wansc(h)oor:
P!N Schoor (NL),
      in Hoegaarden (VB)
      of Broechem (A);
      Schore (WV,Z).
Zie ook: Verschoor(e)
1218 Johannes de Score
1220 Erlebaldus miles de Scora
1261 Thirinus de Scora = 1263 Tieren van Score, WV (DF XIV)
1326 Gillis van Scoren, Ip. (BEELE)
1433 Heinric van Score; Kh (DEKEYSER)

A Province of Antwerp (Belgium)
NL Province of Limburg (Netherlands)
VB Province of Flemish Brabant (Belgium)
WV Province of West-Flanders  (Belgium)
Z Province of Zeeland (Netherlands)

b - Further, from:
Herbillon & Germain, Dictionnaire des noms de famile en Belgique romane,
1996, Crédit Communal, vol 2:

*Frequency of families in Belgium* (and split-up per province).
Families are only listed when more than 100 families with exactly the same
orthography for the very same name are occuring in BElgium=

De Sc(h)o(o)r(e): not listed
Schoorens: 119 (Belgium), of which 56 (East-Flanders)
Schoors: 378 (Belgium), of which 252 (Antwerp)
Van Schoor: 472 (Belgium), of which 207 (Antwerp), 158 (East-Flanders)
Vanschooren: 119 (Belgium), of which 104 (Belg. Limburg)

Pse be aware that due to name translations between Dutch, French and Latin
the prefixes "de" and "van" are often interchanged in "Belgium ancien
régime". Orthography was not consistent, but an on the spot transcription of
the spoken name.

c - Cf. Also schor in the WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal), pasted
from the CDROM
(Dictionary of *16th-19th century Dutch*):

*SCHOR (I) — SCHORRE* —, znw. vr. en onz. Mnl. *schor,* onz., *schorre,* vr.
en onz. (?), mnd. *schor(e),* onz., ook kust, oever, m. eng. *schore,* eng.
*shore,* kust, oever. Van denzelfden stam als Scheren (I), verg. ook SCHAAR
(VI) en SCHOOR.
) Buitendijksche aangeslibde grond, onbedijkte (en bij hoog water
onderloopende) aangeslibde kleibank. || Dat de *scorren* ligghende buuten
zeedycken ghemeene metter zee, staende of gheweest hebbende ter ghifte ofte
disposicie vanden grave ..., gherekent ende ghehouden zyn over catheil,
Cost. Vrije v. Brugge 1, 760 (aº. 1522). Dat my meest voordeel gaf, dat quam
my van het dijcken, Als wy den souten stroom bedwongen om te wijcken: Hier
kocht ick *schorren* toe of lang verdroncken lant, CATS 3, 61 b. Eensdeels
op den dyk, eensdeels beneevens dien op het *schor*, HOOFT, N. H. 1171. (Een
man) die des avonds een fuik in de Meer gezet hadde, aan 't* schor* van het
land, LEEGHWATER, HaarlemmerMeerb. § 4. Ick hebbe wel op gorsingen
ofte *schorren
*geweest daer geen creecken en waeren, VIERLINGH, Tract. v. Dyck. 5. Men
vind voor deeze Landen nog verscheide banken, die by laag water droog
liggen, en aldaar met den naam van *Schorren* bekend staan, waar onder
de *schorren
van Strijen* de voornaamsten zyn, BERKHEY, N. H. 1, 12. Zijne onderneming
der bedijking der *Goereesche schorren*, BILD., Br. 4, 135. Indijking van *
schorren* of buitengronden, droogmaking van meren, waren (vóór de veertiende
eeuw) onbekend, G. DE VRIES, Holl. Noorderkw. 5. Kwelders, *schorren*,
aanwassen en slikken, Versl. Landb. 1910, 4, 4.
— Op hooge en grazige *schorren* worden schapen geweid. || Op de*
schorren*mijne Schapen Vinde ick in een groot getal, HONDIUS,
Moufeschans 277. Moet
onsen acker dor staen; En Boomgaard aan den quijn: Sal 't schaap niet weer
ter *schorr *gaan, V. LODENSTEYN, Uytsp. 309. ...

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071106/6c97a6fd/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  7 18:32:59 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:32:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.07 (01) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.NOV.2007.103259.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  07 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (03) [D/E]

Dankie, Theo en Jacqueline!

Elsie Zinßer

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (03) [D/E]

 Beste Ted and all participating Lowlanners,

it's very interesting to go to the roots of the word-family around *
'skar-skor-shore-schaar'*.

Ted, Du schreyvst:

> There seems to be divergence from 'Schore' as related to shore, body of
water, etc.  and 'Score', 'Scora' which seems to be related to
> scoring of a surface, and the sandpaper references 'Skor'.   Is it the
difference between the soft and hard - 'sh' verses 'sk'.  different words >
= different meanings?
I don't think so, because in our/my Low Saxon dialect I see a possible
connection: a 'dike which is standing *schaar/schoor' *means* 'close to the
water line', *in this case preferably used in the meaning* 'close to the
kerb the water _scored_ into the ground',* which is called*
'Abbruch-Kante'*in German
*.*
**
Besides that in LS we have an old word which had been in use till the 19th
century:* _Anscot_,* meaning 'growing marshlands' (outside the dike lines),
which *could(!)* formerly have been 'An-skaar/An-skoor' = 'at the shore'.

Another connection could be the LS/G word (Plough-/Pflug-)*'-schar'* (share
of a plough), in which one we find the 'cutting' element again as the water
often "*cuts"* a line into the beach.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071107/9cb2526c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  7 19:08:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:08:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2007.11.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.NOV.2007.110808.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.06 (04) [D/E]

Roger,
please keep logging your fascinating facts.
there does not seem to be a lot of south dutch or Limburgisch info and I
always find yours and Luc's and Desidre's info most enlightening. I am
fascinated that there are over 1 million users of limburgs ( and after
having visited in July 2007 again having no doubt in this number of users
but am amazed at the lack of imput from Limburgs language users. it seems as
though Limburgs treats their minor language scenario as un important. My own
experience is totally the opposite. I went to the main bookshop in
Maastricht and asked for Limburgs English dictionary and was told by 3
different staff that this is not what I want. I do not want Limburgs dialect
is what I was told. Even though I was in the heartlaand. What is wrong with
these " Learned people" .  As an English speaking person  I WAS FOBBED OFF.
It was absurd that I wanted to see anything in the Limburgs dialect. What I
wanted was Dutch I was told. I was totally amazed at the lack of Limburgs in
Maaastricht I was being sold in the new b ookshop. Beautiful place with
walls being art updated but the language expectation here was only Dutch -
super sad to me. My cousin who lived in Valkenburg thought it was also an
absurdity b ut the truth.
Regards
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language attitudes

Hi, Pete! Could to "see" you, stranger.

What you encountered there is the sort of thing I and some people I know are
quite familiar with. I'm certain anyone is who deals with minority languages
of countries other than their own. It is an interesting but also irritating
phenomenon.

What makes it hard to deal with is that it seems to come from a mixture of
ignorance and wanting to be helpful to outsiders. Those people got a bit too
much state-run education (that used to reflect denial of legitimacy of
languages other than the national one), and they haven't really caught up
with the latest changes in policy and attitudes. Fundamental may be that
they truly believe that it's fine for local "backward" *Lokalpatrioten *to
deal with "inconsequential" lingos, but that foreigners ought to learn
the *national
*language if they haven't already done so. It is virtually impossible for
them to get their heads around the possibility that a foreigner is
interested in, say, Limburgish, Low Saxon or Frisian but not in Dutch, and
learning Dutch without wanting to live there is seen by many as being
frivolous to begin with.  So if these "educated" people that are fluent in a
handful of "important" foreign languages see their own national language as
being low on the international totem pole, guess what they think about the
minority and "regional" languages of their country. What you are dealing
with here are the chickens of past indoctrination having come home to roost
and running amuck in this transitional period because no one wants to see
them and deal with them, since that would require acknowledging past "sins."

As I said, I have come across this phenomenon many times, and not only in
Europe. In Indonesia I had the longest run-around trying to round up
material for Sundanese and Javanese (which aren't exactly minority languages
with 27 million and 75 million speakers respectively). And I wasn't even
asking for English language material about them. Overriding seemed to be the
attitude that this was an internal matter, that a foreigner ought to be
dealing only with Indonesian, the national language. In China (including
Taiwan) it is very difficult for foreigners to get to study the "dialects" (
i.e., Chinese languages other than Standard Mandarin), leave alone
non-Chinese languages of China, and the latter is often accompanied by
suspicion.

In my opinion, the only way around such barriers anywhere in the world is
establishing contacts with relevant individuals, populations and
organizations. Just traveling there and trying to spend an afternoon hunting
down material tends to be difficult. This is where it comes in handy if you
do some homework before the trip. Being on a list like ours also allows you
to ask locals or those that have been there before about resources and their
locations.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071107/d4ae3ec7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  7 19:10:40 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:10:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.07 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.NOV.2007.111040.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  07 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: "Peter Snepvangers" <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: genealogy

Hello Lowlanders'
Long time , no list., sorry about that.
 I am super duper busy latetly but still try to always read my favourite
emails (Lowlands). Please try to list in english also as we are not all as
gifted as all you folks on the list and we do need to make the list as
accesible as possible. I know this is a hassle but folk such as Johnny M etc
do a fantastic job in including us all in his enlightening mails and
including us in the Lowlands familia. Some languages as Scots, Lowlands and
Limburgs are easy to follow for me but other stuff including modern Dutch
ate a little more difficult. I do not wish to put a damper on your listings
as I realise we all have language we are more comfortable in writing in but
even a poor attempt in english is hundreds of percent appreciated than no
attempt at all. I hope I have not offended any one on this list as I super
value the listings of all people in all languages and use the various
languages as practice in reading. There is not much opportunity in now in
Australia for practice as the generations of immigrants are now dying out.
My own mother is 83 years old and although good compis mentis there are not
many people of her generation left unfortunately who we can ask for
reference.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071107/e0d7c653/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 15:18:13 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:18:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.08 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.071813.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.07 (03) [E]

In message
<57c981290711071110j29d86d8fy9d0f7677eed9ef1f at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> (i.e. Peter Snepvangers writes
> Please try to list in english also as we are not all as gifted as all
>you folks on the list and we do need to make the list as accesible as
>possible.

I don't mind it ... this is why (just my thoughts).

 I belong to three lists which operate in multiple languages.

The first is run by a body affiliated to UNESCO.  Everything official
has to be in both English and French (they alternate which comes first),
although posting in Spanish and Russian are both allowed.  Very
occasionally there is an official positing in Spanish (e.g. for a
Spanish-language conference), with obligatory translations  into English
and French.   There is very little discussion on the list, but when
there is, it is almost always in English. Very, very occasionally, there
is a comment or two in French.

The second list is run by a group of archaeologists who are very pro
indigenous rights.  Almost every post is in English, but a fair number
are in Spanish, and a very few in French.  Threads stick to their
language, in almost every case (the exceptions being very brief English
posts asking for translation so they can join in on political
campaigns).

All lists want to be inclusive, and accessible.  But oddly, I think that
the way people post to lowlands-l in different languages makes it more
accessible than either of the others (and more accessible than
English-only lists). This is because it is far easier to read in an
additional language than it is to write, so we include people who
(think) their English isn't good enough,  Of course, if someone replies
to a post, or starts a discussion in a language that I don't understand,
things don't move forward as easily as they should.  But I find
conversations often come around back into English. And in the meantime,
I like reading things I don't understand, in idle moments.  In not-idle
moments, I delete, unread, things without E in the subject line
(although I admit I didn't recognise this useful tag for too long!)

Cheers,

Pat


--
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/d338359d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 15:16:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:16:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.071633.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.07 (01) [A/E]

 it's very interesting to go to the roots of the word-family around
'skar-skor-shore-schaar'.
Johnny, could this be the origin of the surname Skarsted?
Ben

---------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.06 (04) [D/E]

*Subject:* LL-L "Genealogy"

There is another term that might contribute to this string, 'shire' & its
remote cognate in Afrikaans 'skêr' = scissors & 'skeer' = shave. Shire
origionally meant a 'division' of the kingdom, a 'department' I suppose the
French would say. A Sherriff took the rents of the shire, was in fact the
'scire geriva' = shire provisioner (practically all taxes in those days were
food-rent). I can see the structure 'sk-vowel-r' deriving from & giving
meaning to the convolutions of the terms 'divider' or 'separator'.
'Geriewe' = provisions in Afrikaans.

(Ted says) There seems to be divergence from 'Schore' as related to shore,
body of water, etc.  and 'Score', 'Scora' which seems to be related to
scoring of a surface, and the sandpaper references 'Skor'.   Is it the
difference between the soft and hard - 'sh' verses 'sk'.  different words =
different meanings?

By the way, 'van Schoor' is a respected family in South Africa also.

Yrs,
Mark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/a7faeae0/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 16:24:50 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:24:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.082450.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: "Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: CMT Syndrome

My Dierbare Vriende,

It is now my turn to ask for your prayers for my Ruth. On Friday she goes in
for tests for a possible nervous degenerative disease called the CMT
Syndrome. It starts at the extremities, & her feet are already being
affected, that is why we went to the doctor. She is a dancer. Later it will
affect her hands, & she is a musician. That's all for now, but even as your
prayers fortified her & saved me may we hope they may again do the same for
us.

Yours in Trust,
Mark.

----------

From: "Mike Morgan" <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: Back in Touch [E+]

Goeiendag! Hi y'all!

I haven't been seen on this list in quite some time (busy? lazy?
indifferent? ... well the LASt one most certainly does NOT apply, but
as for the first two ... take your pick!)

Anyway, since I am leaving Japan (after 18 years) for better parts
(India), I needed to change my subscription email address, which lead
our most gracious Ron aka Reinhard (or is it vice versa?) to respond
in person (I had sent a faulty command to the listserv, shame on
me!!!) ... and I thought i would respond to HIS email through the list
...

Those of you who do not remember me from my previous postings, I  am
one of Japan's few Lowlands-L subscribers, and have posted (all too
infrequently, I admit) on the wonders of wasabi, the Blue Ridge
Institute & Farm Museum in at my mother's alma mater in her home town
of Ferrum, VA (USA), on Turkic syntax (at least that is what I vaguely
remember the topic being), and (most actively) orthography (in
specific, a friendly debate with a certain honorable Mr. S. Fleming
about systems of putting sign language into writing ... perhaps best
described as the practical approach (SF) versus the
feet-in-the-ivory-tower, head-in-the-clouds approach (MWM) :-)

EVERYTHING, in fact, EXCEPT Lowlands languages.  SHAME on me!!

Well, one of the things that motivated me to stop procrastinating and
change my subscription address now (rather than, say, in 10 days ...
the day before I leave ) was that I am in the porcess of selecting 30
kgs of books to go with me as I move (the other 30 metric tons will
come later ... by slow boat, perhaps?), and for me the process of
choosing what books is mostly a process of choosing what LANGAUGES.
Well, I have been moving books on and off my "to go with" shelves, and
I (a Slavicist by training, a Sign language linguist by profession,
and an (Southern) Asian at heart) have been surprised to realize that
although some surprising languages have found there way onto the
shelves only later to be replaced and knocked down to the "runners-up
shelf), a total of FOUR Lowlands languages have stayed put (for the
curious, they are (drumroll please!): Nederlands (Dutch), Frysk (West
Frisian), Scots (making it FIVE if you count Lallans AND Ullans)
separately and Afrikaans  ... OH, and (sorry Sandy!) I almost forgot:
BSL is also on the definitely to-go-with shelf (and NOT only due to
its input on Indian Sign Language!)

So MAYEB I will be prepared to participate more actively ...

The runners-up shelf would add to the list ... and since the "rules
and regulations" for LowlandsList are a bit "vague" as to what exactly
a lowlands language is , I'll quote Ron's email to me that "
> Marathi ain't Lowlands, but nothing is too
> far away, and Indian English is definitely Lowlands. Besides, Mumbai is
home
> to gezillions of language varieties.

Well, if Indian English is Lowlands, what about Tok Pisin and Bislama
(whcih have been trading places on the to-go and runners-up shelves)?

Ron alos wrote:
> Maybe you can organize some wrens and their sounds while you are there.
(The
> LL-L hustler is never far away.)

Yes, and I MAY even get around to submitting my Japanese Sign language
version  (lazy ... I mean, busy me will probably get around to it
about the time my Indian Sign language is fluent enough to submit my
version in that as well!!)

> At any rate, best of luck with the relocation, and luck is needed when it
> comes to Indian bureaucracy. ;-)

Spoken like a man with experience! Yes, Indian Bureaucracy and the
crowded Bombay commuter trains are two of the few things i am NOT
looking forward to dealing with regualrly!

Ron again:
> Don't be a stranger now, y'hear?

I will TRY not to be ...

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )

++++++++++++++++

茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
NPO法人イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Mark!

Thanks for informing us about Ruth's situation. Whatever it's worth, my
positive energies have already begun flying SA-ward, and I'm sure others
will join them. After all, Ruth is a part of the family, albeit on an in-law
basis.

Even if the tests results come back positive, bear in mind what the Kahuna (
http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) just whispered in my ear:

There are many ways of dancing and making music.

And take our Ben and Sandy as shining examples. Ben's blindness doesn't keep
him from studying languages (including Chinese) and going to study abroad,
and ... from being a birder. Sandy turned deaf as an adult after having been
a musician. But look at him following his passions and making terrific
contributions from which many people get to benefit! Sometimes we just need
to switch over to a different route sometime along the way. Actually, most
of us will eventually have to as our bodies wear out but our minds and
spirits still want and need to soar.

Please give your Ruth my love and best wishes.

Hi again, Mike! And to add to your collection, it's *Michel *[ˈmɪçl̩] in
Northern Low Saxon of Germany.

You wrote:

Well, if Indian English is Lowlands, what about Tok Pisin and Bislama
(whcih have been trading places on the to-go and runners-up shelves)?

To reiterate, *all* Englishes are within our focus, as are all pidgins and
creoles that substantially involve (not necessarily constitute the bases of)
Lowlands languages (which tend to be Afrikaans, Dutch and English). This
puts Tok Pisin and Bislama fair and square into the Lowlands focus, since
they are English-based creoles (former pidgins that have "gone native").

A list of English-based creoles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-based_creole_languages

A list of Dutch-based creoles and languages with heavy Dutch contributions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch-based_creole_languages

Afrikaans-based: Tsotsitaal, Oorlams (Vlaaitaal)

Take a look at the index of our Anniversary Project to get an idea:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/contents.php
Everything above the line is Lowlandic.
Tok Pisin is already there: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/tokpisin.php
As is Philippines English:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/english-philippines.php

Although the languages varieties below the line are not within the focus
area, those on top of that list are closely related, and some (e.g.,
Northern German, Missingsch and Scandinavian) are relevant by virtue of
intensive contacts.

At the end of the day, none are totally irrelevant, which is one of the
reasons why in the language introductions (
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/contents-info.php) I mention contacts with
Lowlands languages (e.g., Japanese, Hindi/Urdu, Kannada, Malay, Indonesian,
Baba Malay [the latest addition], Tsalagi and Walloon).

Mike, I envy you as you embark on a new phase in your exciting life as an
expatriate. Why, I might even visit you sometime in good, old भारत माता. I'm
sure you will have a wonderful time that is enriching for everyone
concerned.

> Don't be a stranger now, y'hear?

I will TRY not to be ...

I'll hold you to it. You could even be our ambassador in India (and get a
special name from the Kahuna) if you play your cards right.

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Officially, our Sandy is A. Fleming, I assume (Alexander = Sandy,
pronounced something like "Sawny" I think). Just after he joined us donkey
years ago I assumed he was a woman, which he graciously corrected, yet I
still danced many a Tango with him over orthographic issues.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/88bc2f09/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 19:33:32 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:33:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.113332.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  07 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

Howzit!

[MWM]:
> Well, if Indian English is Lowlands, what about Tok Pisin and Bislama
>  (which have been trading places on the to-go and runners-up shelves)?
[R/R]:
> To reiterate, all Englishes are within our focus, as are all pidgins and
> creoles that substantially involve (not necessarily constitute the bases
of)
> Lowlands languages (which tend to be Afrikaans, Dutch and English). This
> puts Tok Pisin and Bislama fair and square into the Lowlands focus, since
> they are English-based creoles (former pidgins that have "gone native").

Sorry brah, I wen forget ALL da kine pidgins was Lowlands (I come
Pearl side, but live long time up Makiki way -- mauka-side, brah, so
no LOW lands, so no give me da stink eye, eh?). Ain no way I go India
widout my copy Lee Tonouchi's Living Pidgin an' also Da Word (dat one
FUNNY book, eh, j'like wen we waz kids) ... So dat make, wat, EIGHT
Lowlands languages I gon take wit? Eh braddah, get so many! Maybe
betta jes go whole cheese and take 'em all!

> Mike, I envy you as you embark on a new phase in your exciting life as an
> expatriate. Why, I might even visit you sometime in good, old भारत माता.
I'm
> sure you will have a wonderful time that is enriching for everyone
> concerned.

You are always most welcome, as are ANY and ALL Lowlands list members
who pass through my new neighborhood  Just drop me an email and give
me a heads up, and I'll have the chai ready and the rotis hot!

> You could even be our ambassador in India (and get a
> special name from the Kahuna) if you play your cards right.

I would be most greatly overjoyed to be the recipient of such an
honour, ... though the only card game I know is Nepali 3-card, no-peek
poker. THAT is a real blast!

>  P.S.: Officially, our Sandy is A. Fleming, I assume (Alexander = Sandy,
> pronounced something like "Sawny" I think). Just after he joined us donkey
> years ago I assumed he was a woman, which he graciously corrected, yet I
> still danced many a Tango with him over orthographic issues.

Yes, and I am officially Michael, but the only person who knew me who
has EVER called me that was my mother, and then only when I was little
and she was hoppin' mad at me! NOT a pleasant memory ... And, just for
the record (since I always sign-off with the 3 initials), the middle
name is Wayne, which for some reason I have ALWAYS hated (EVEN in my
Arthurian period when I imagined it was a form of Gawain). And the
initials MWM are not only easy to write, but even easier to
fingerspell ... IN ASL (not nearly so "handy" in either BSL or ISL,
I'm afraid) .... the ASL name-sign incorporates JUST the two M's
articulated at the chin, and my more widely known JSL and
international name sign is the one-handed form of the sign for "beard"
(though beards are NOT so uncommon where I am going, they are a rarity
where I have been, and hence the distinctive name sign.)

Anyway, I WILL be in touch ... and as I have OFTEN noticed that some
of the "strange" forms of Indian English are not quite so strange to
me (given my almost-Appalachian mother if not a previous South Asian
rebirth), maybe on occassion I will be checking in to see if they have
broader Lowlands connections. [for instance, the idiom "do the
needful" came up the other day in an email from Ishara's principal (it
MAY in fact have even been in the plural "do the needfuls", but as i
cannot locate the email right now, I can't be sure.) ... any Lowlands
links there???

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )

++++++++++++++++

茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Howdy 'gain, Mike!

I conferred with the Kahuna, and we unanimously voted in favor of appointing
you to the post of Lowlands Ambassador to India. Should you accept this
assignment, the Kahuna will send a buxom *kaikamahine* or strapping *keiki
kāne* (whichever you prefer) to give you a *lei*. Just for having taken the
speaker's mat he has bestowed upon you a mat of honor and a "fragrant name,"
upon Marcus as well: http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm

But mind that this prestigious diplomatic post comes with expectations.
Various Indic wrens would be a start.

Regards, from the Kahuna as well,

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/ca0aba3c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 20:14:30 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:14:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.121430.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: Der Kreis Stormarn hat jetzt die plattdeutschen Namen offziell
festgelegt

Leve Lowlanners,

kiekt mal op
http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html

De Krink Stormarn hett tosamen mit de Fehrs-Gill de plattdüütschen Naams för
de Öörd in Stormarn fastleggt, dormit de op de Oortsschiller kamen köönt.

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko Evermann
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/798e8772/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 00:56:46 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:56:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.165646.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05)

HURRAY!!!

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05)

 Beste Heiko,

Du schreyvst:

> De Krink Stormarn hett tosamen mit de Fehrs-Gill de plattdüütschen Naams
för
> de Öörd in Stormarn fastleggt, dormit de op de Oortsschiller kamen köönt.
Gradoleyr ouk! Nu waard 't woll draod weller Wiinach'en! Is dat ne greesig?
"Fastleggt"(!!!???) foyr de Eywigkeyt, wa? De Oul'n schöllt sick woll in
jemmer Groyv mennigmool üm-dreyhen, wenn 's dat tou seyh'n kriigt.
Man goud, watt 'ck door ne leeben un' doud-bliiben mutt...

Allerbest Wünschers, nu all!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

[English below]

Heiko un annere Lüüd',

Ik heff mi de List ankäken un will geern wäten, of de Naams altohoop
"natüürlich" (or "echt") sünd or of daar welk mit bi sünd, de wen allerlest
tohoopklamüstert hett. Or geev' dat daar wat to köörn, vun wägen dat Woord
"fastleggt"?

Na Jonny sien Reakschoon baven to oordeeln lett dat meist, as weern de Naams
nich echt. Sülven kann ik dat nich seggen, wiel dat ik vun de daar lüttern
Öörd' nich vääl afwäten do. Liekers nähm ik stark an, dat de Minschen daar
ook "platt" snackt or maal "platt" snackt harrn, un daar wägen schull een
ook annähmen, dat 't "platte" Naams gifft.

Klaar doot wi altohoop wäten, dat "fastleggt" niks mit "Ewigkeit" to doon
hett, liek as offitschelle düütsche un annere Oordsnaams nich up Ewigkeit
fastleggt sünd.

Folks, Heiko drew our attention to the news that the North German
municipality of Stormarn will have bilingual place signs and has published a
list of German places and their Low Saxon equivalents. I took a look at the
list and am asking if all of the LS place names are "Although I have heard
of most of these places I am not familiar enough with them to be able to
answer this question myself. However, I am intrigued enough by Jonny's
acerbic reaction above to wonder what's the deal. It seems as though he
objects to the word *fastleggt* 'determined', 'decided', with reference to
these names, which, I must admit, sounds a bit as though they were invented
or as though there were many variants to choose from. (I have in mind
choices like Scots "Edinburrie" ~ "Embra" ~ "Embro", and "Glesga" ~
"Glesca".) If official choices among existing variants were made, would this
be acceptable or unacceptable?

I have to admit that the information and Jonny's reaction leave me with more
questions than they answer.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/882db5da/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 17:24:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:24:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.09 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.092426.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, I want to clarify that Tsotsitaal and Vlaaitaal (Flytaal) are
urban-based creoles (interspersed with Sotho, Xhosa and Zulu) and Oorlams is
a rural-based creole mostly found in the Northern Cape and Namibia,
interspersed with Nama.

Incidentally, the adjective 'oorlams' means to be cheeky, excited,
insolent.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

  Mike Morgan: ...they are (drumroll please!): Nederlands (Dutch), Frysk
(West
Frisian), Scots (making it FIVE if you count Lallans AND Ullans)
separately and Afrikaans  ... OH, and (sorry Sandy!) I almost forgot:
BSL is also on the definitely to-go-with shelf (and NOT only due to
its input on Indian Sign Language!)
Ron Hahn: Afrikaans-based: Tsotsitaal, Oorlams (Vlaaitaal)

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/3f9b3c09/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 17:18:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:18:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.091855.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (06)

Beste Mike,

Du schreyvst:

> HURRAY!!!

Perhaps you didn't realize what this action means.

According to the list of place names Heiko had sent there are about 50
villages to re-name (why not more?). That makes 100 plates which have to be
demounted, to be labeled and enameled newly and then to be re-mounted again.
According to our local 'Straßenmeisterei' (road maintenance staff) it makes
about 3,000 EURO per each- in summary 300,000 EURO. And that for just the
doubtful change of one letter?! Couldn't this money be spend for better
destinations?

What the heck is the difference between e.g. 'Lütjensee' and 'Lüttensee'?
Ridiculous, isn't it? "Eine echte deutsche Amtsposse (a 'bureaucratic coup
de farce')- Schilda (pun intended) lässt grüßen!"

After generations of foreign geometers, half-analphabetical 'Amtsschreibern'
(communal clerks) now we meet the generation of non-native people to
arrogate themselves, as a sovereign act of the provincial government
('fastleggen'), to fog continuously grown structures.

And how should it be run in Northern Frisia? As far as I know some villages
there have, besides their official German name, a Danish, a North Frisian
and a Low Saxon one. New Babylon!

And- as Ron mentioned if I understand him correctly- there should be really
existing, still used Low Saxon names. If not, why to invent them? For what
reason if the people, the inhabitants themselves don't use or even never
have heard them? Just to bedevil the tourists ;-)?

I cannot imagine at all that this kind of an administrative act should
be useful for the sake of LS.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]

Liebe Freunde zweisprachiger Ortstafeln!
Dear friends of bilingual topographic names!

Habt ihr bei den Bemühungen um zweisprachige Ortstafeln nicht manchmal Angst
davor, unfreiwillig zur Minderheit im eigenen Land zu werden? Die meisten
Ortsnamen und sonstigen topographischen Namen in Norddeutschland sind doch
gemischt hoch- und niederdeutsch, man sollte sich da nichts vormachen. Und
so schlecht ist das doch nicht, ganz im Gegenteil. Für mich sind sie ohnehin
eher nieder- als hochdeutsch. Beispielsweise verwendet man in den
offiziellen Ortsnamen dieses Kreises zwar offensichtlich einheitlich -dorf
statt -dörp, andererseits -bek statt -bach, "-wohld" statt "-wald", "-hoop"
statt "-haufen", "-have" statt "hafen", "Lütje-" statt "Klein-" u.ä.

Wenn ich mir die Liste

http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html

genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest denkbar, dass als Gegenreaktion
rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden, wie zb. Bad Altenlohe, Barssiedel,
Bruch, Brunsbach (Braunbach), Grünwald, Heidekampf, Heilshaufen, Jersbach,
Lasbach, Kleinsee, Münchhagen, Neuwald, Oststeinbach, Reinbach, Siech,
Zangstadt, Tremssiedel, Witzhafen.

The topograghic names in this part((Kreis [=district] Stormarn) and also in
other parts  of Northern Germany are actually partly High German, partly Low
German/Saxon. For example they use HG "-dorf" instead of "-dörp" on the
other hand LG/LS "-bek" instead of "bach".

The consequent divide of High- and Low-German/Saxon names could result in a
involuntarily linguistic and ethnic separation and lead the declared
Low-German/Saxon into a minority status in their own land!

Examples:

official name: Ammersbek (allegedly HG, in fact LG/LS!)
proposed LS: Ammersbeek (only a orthographic adjustment)
"real" HG and so a possible backlash: Ammersbach

official: Bad Oldesloe (again: this is rather LG/LS than High German!)
LS proposal: Bad Oschloe
HG backlash: Bad Altenlohe

In a HG reaction of purism also "-büttel" consequently would be replaced by
something like "-siedel" (you discussed these words before), "-wohld" by
"-wald", "-have" by "-hafen" (Witzhave/Witzhafen), "Braak" would be "Bruch",
"Heilshoop" - "Heilshaufen", "Mönkhagen" - "Münchhagen", "Tangstedt" -
"Zangstadt" etc (see above).

Hence the mixed Low- /High-German names are not that bad, methinks.

Regards
Karl-Heinz
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/38e5c14e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 17:21:16 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:21:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.092116.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

 Anyway, since I am leaving Japan (after 18 years) for better parts
(India), I needed to change my subscription email address, which lead
our most gracious Ron aka Reinhard (or is it vice versa?) to respond
Mike,

What're ya gonna be doin' down in India? I go to church with several friends
from South India back in Arizona. What were you up to up in Japan? You
haven't forgotten the good oal US of A have ya?
Ben

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

In message
<57c981290711080824v1574978cn994660450f988465 at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> writes
>It is now my turn to ask for your prayers for my Ruth. On Friday she
>goes in
>for tests for a possible nervous degenerative disease called the CMT
>Syndrome. It starts at the extremities, & her feet are already being
>affected, that is why we went to the doctor. She is a dancer. Later it
>will
>affect her hands, & she is a musician. That's all for now, but even as
>your
>prayers fortified her & saved me may we hope they may again do the same
>for
>us.

Dear Mark,

My thoughts are with you both!

Since the symptoms/results you mentioned sounded very like one of the
things which may lie in my future (diabetic neuropathy), I did a quick
look through my links looking Charcot Marie Tooth disease, and see it is
similar in some ways.  Since massive doses of vitamin C (think 6,000
oranges a day, not six!!!) are being trialled for both, it seems to me
there may even be a similar cause.

Do let me know if you want me to pass on some links to information and
support groups.

Best wishes,

Pat

--
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/e92937fa/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 18:44:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:44:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.104431.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

Hi all,

And suddenly, while reading your posting, Mark, I remembered another
relative to skoor/skor/skêr/skaar, namely 'skoorvoet' (Hy loop
skoorvoeterig rond om moeilikheid te maak" (walking around looking for
trouble), 'skoorsoek' (looking for trouble) as in 'Die ou man is baie
skoorsoekerig as sy tablette opraak".

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

Beste Ben,

you wrote:

> could this be the origin of the surname Skarsted?
It sounds very Scandinavian, and I guess it has got the same roots. In Old
Icelandic we find *'sker'*, meaning 'cliff', and in German we have 'die Sch*
ae*re', that's an isolated rock sorrounded by water and also survived in
English as 'skerry'.

BTW: all these words point to Germanic *'skur'* and mean *'to cut'* in the
widest sense- in German a pair of scissors is 'die Sch*e*re'.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

   - English: O. *scéar* (sg.) -> *scérero ~ **scéreru ** *(pl.) >
Mid. *schæren
   ~ sheres *(pl.) > Mod. *shears*
   - Scots: *scéar* (sg.) > *shear*
   - Frisian: W. *skjirre
   *
   - Saxon: *skâra *(German *Schere* >?) > *scheyr* (*Scheer ~ Schier ~
   Schiar* ~ *Schea*)
   - Dutch: Mid.* schaer(e)* > Mod. *schaar*
   - Dutch: Mid.* **schaer(e)* > Afrikaans *skêr
   *
   - Norse:* skǽri* (pl.) > Icelandic *skæri*, Norwegian dial. *skjæra *(fem.)
   ~ *skjære *(masc.)**
   - German: O. *scâra* ~ *skâr* -> *skâri* (pl.) > Mid. *schære *> Mod.
   *Schere*, Alemannic *Schär*
   - German: Mid. *schære* > Yiddish שער *sher*
   - > Slovenian *škárje*, Croatian *škare* (cf. Serbian *маказе makaze*),
   Sami *skár'rit ~ skierat* (pl. -*(V)t*), Estonian *käärid* (pl. *-(i)d
   *)

Cf.

   - cf. Old Saxon *sahs* 'short sword', 'long knife' >
*skersahs*'shearing knife'
   - Old English *seax, sæx*, *sex* 'short sword', 'long knife'
   - Old German *sahs* 'short sword', 'long knife'
   - **sahs* 'short sword', 'long knife' + pl. > Danish *sakser* (pl. *
   -er*), Faeroese *saksur* (pl. *-ur*), Finnish *sakset* (pl. *-(V)t*)
   - *> *Old Saxon, Old German *sahso*, Old English *seax(e)* 'Saxon'
   - > Old Norse *saks(a)-* 'Saxon ...'
   - > Estonian, Finnish *Saksa* 'Saxony' > 'Germany'

Cf.

   - Czech *nůžky* (< "knives"), Slovak *nožnice*, Russian *ножницы **
   nožnicy*, Ukrainian *ножіці **nožycy* ("little knives")

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/ba565087/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 22:21:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:21:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (06) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.142153.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

Beste allen,
Zo'n klip, een "onderzeewaterrots", noemen wij te Oostende: e blénde sjhêr.
Een arduinen tegelvloer is in het West-Vlaams: e sjhorre.
De bloem uit het Zwin (oude zeeboezem die vroeger van Brugge tot bij Knokke
liep) heet lamsoor; in ons dialect heet die bloem "sjhorreblomme" of
"zwieneblomme".
Het Nederlands schoor is ook een steunbalk, in ons dialect "sjhoerienge".
Doet mij hieraan denken: schouders (shoulders) steunen toch ook; daar zou
wel eens een verband met "schoren kunnen zijn. Schouders zijn bij ons
trouwens: sjhoeres!
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck

----------

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

From wkv at home.nl  wim verdoold zwolle netherlands

Hi,

The latin word for Stone comes to mind, saxum

Knives used to be made of stone, might that be connected too?

wim [Verdoold]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

I wrote today:

   - German: O. *scâra* ~ *skâr* -> *skâri* (pl.) > Mid. *schære *> Mod.
   *Schere*, Alemannic *Schär*
   - German: Mid. *schære* > Yiddish שער *sher*
   - > Slovenian *škárje*, Croatian *škare* (cf. Serbian *маказе makaze*),
   Sami *skár'rit ~ skierat* (pl. -*(V)t*), Estonian *käärid* (pl. *-(i)d
   *)

I failed to mention that the words in the last line all mean 'scissors'.

Ditto here:

   - Czech *nůžky* (< "knives"), Slovak *nožnice*, Russian *ножницы **
   nožnicy*, Ukrainian *ножіці **nožycy* ("little knives")

Please note that these and the other words I mentioned encompass the
semantic range of *'cut' and *'shears' ~ *'scissors'. Furthermore,
apparently they are related to words in the *'short' range as well (and to
words derived from these); cf.

   - English: O. *sc(e)ort* > Mid. *s(c)hort* > Mod. *short*
   - Frisian: O. *kort* > *kort*
   - Saxon: O. *kurt* > *kurt ~ kort ~ kott*
   - Dutch: *kort, schorten*
   - German: O. *scorz* ~ *kurz* > *kurz*
   - Norse: *kortr* > *kort*

These are related to *shirt* and *skirt*, also with German *Scherz* 'joke'
(< "little piece"), and they all go back to Germanic **skerd-* <
**sker-*'to cut' < Indo-European *
*ker-*, **sker-*.

There is a relationship between the above and words of the (*sceard* >)
"shard" ~ "sherd" group; e.g., Frisian (*skerd *>) W. *skird, *N. *skaard**,
schaard*, *scherd*), Low Saxon (*skard* >) *schaard* (*Schaart, Schort*,
etc.), Dutch (*scharde* ~ *schart* >) *schaard*, etc.

Wim, I'm not sure if Latin *saxum* falls into this category, but it may
well. It is related to the **sek-* 'to cut' group (as in *section* for
instance and most other Romance and also Celtic word related to "cut"), to
which also the *scythe* subgroup belongs, as well as Old English *secg
*'sword'.
If *saxum* does belong to this, this would be interesting in that it might
take us back to the use of stone tools.

Again, note how many words are related with each other and what this may
entail regarding the vocabulary size of the the ancestral languages.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/94713225/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 22:27:56 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:27:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.142756.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

 Bester Karl-Heinz!

You hit the nail right on its head, Alder!

The voice of reason from Southern Middle Europe.

Habe die Ehre!! (Grüaz' i?)
Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Jonny,

Weren't you the one that told us about all those misunderstandings (folk
etymologies due to false friends) leading to mistranslations in the creation
of German equivalents of Low Saxon names during Germanization of what is now
Northern Germany?

Kumpelmenten!
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

Jonni, Karl-Heinz, put water in the wine of my enthousism.
It would appear to me that all one would have to do is to
search archives to determine the genuine LS names.
(Barmbeck, instead of the LS/HG bastard "Barmbek".for example)
"All one would have to do..." how long would that take?
Are there enough qualified volunteers to do that?
I say hurray to the fact that something is moving
at all.
Of course, if the authorities take this as an alibi,
not to implement the Eur. Charta any further, because
they have "done it" already, then this whole thing is a shot
in the foot for us.
What it boils down to is that it is too little too late.
Much too little much too late.
Sadly yours, Mike Wintzer
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/e9e2f4cf/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 20:08:52 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:08:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.09 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.120852.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  07 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.08 (02)

 Dear Pat,

you wrote in answering

*Peter 'Snipecatcher'*
> > Please try to list in english also as we are not all as gifted as all
>> you folks on the list and we do need to make the list as accesible as
>> possible.

*here:*
> I don't mind it ... this is why (just my thoughts).
...
> In not-idle
> moments, I delete, unread, things without E in the subject line
> (although I admit I didn't recognise this useful tag for too long!)

Traitresse ;-)!

We are NOT any homuncenous group of acquademics and intellecturers with just
a limited width of interests dealing with specialised themas.
A large number of our members for my guessing are not explicitely aeducated
for the subjects they're posting or have to reed above.
Tak me, for exampel. Though I think i've had a quite god aeducation in
Englisch language at school and later at the Navy's i hadn't been in contect
with practising it for mor then  25 jears- more or less. I hadn't dealed
with linguisms and its 'termini technici' outside of the school- and that at
least nearly happened 40 jears ago.
But- I guess everyone who is really interested in the matters we diskuss IS
able to give a little hint now and then to explane his (partly very special;
without a chance for a good dictionary) weirdest terms and writing systems.

Obviously our Kanuma at the moment is busy outside the list, otherwise he
would perhaps have told you that some years ago we came to a sort of
agreement that we should use two languages if possible. And I have done so,
for a long time, but finding out that I seemed to be part of a very small,
decreasing minority I ceesed to transscribe hole textes.

I have to agrea Peter- sometimes it could be very useful to see leastwise
some English explanations within the text (in special at our Afrikaans
friends; it's not always very easy to understand them even for a native
Lowlanner ;-)).

> This is because it is far easier to read in an
> additional language than it is to write, so we include people who
> (think) their English isn't good enough,
You might see- I don't think this weigh ;-)!

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

*PS:* Again I'd like to recommend http://wordweb.info/ as a very useful tool
for every non-native English writer. Fast and encyclopaedic. But if you want
to install it you have to vend your Jeep and cross the Antlantic with
H.M.S"Queen Mary II"...

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/44c4c9ef/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 18:02:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:02:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.100200.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

Elsie gives the definition of Afrikaans skoorzoek as looking for trouble and
skoorvoet as walking around looking for trouble.

Hi Elsie, Guess what! In Dutch schoorvoetend means (and I am quoting van
Dale) " de voeten schrap zettend, thans  alleen fig. tegenstribbelend,
aarzelend of weifelend voort- of te werk gaan". If we assume that the word
came to South Africa with the original sailors, we need to ask somebody with
a historical dictionary to find out what it meant in the 16th century and
whether the meaning changed in the Northern hemisphere or in the South.
Jacqueline
----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (06) [D/E]

> From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]
[...]
> Doet mij hieraan denken: schouders (shoulders)
> steunen toch ook; daar zou
> wel eens een verband met "schoren kunnen zijn.
> Schouders zijn bij ons
> trouwens: sjhoeres!
> Toetnoasteki,
> Roland Desnerck

Hallo,

'schouders / shoulders' hadden 1000 jaar terug vormen
met 'sculd'.

Dus maar niet bij  'schoren'.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Lowlanders,

According to Daniel Cassidy, much of (American) English slang was
actually derived from Irish.
The guy won the American Book Award for nonfiction this year with a book
in which he explains how common words like "dork", "slum", "buddy",
"geezer", "dude", "dig" and many others can all be traced back to Irish
Gaelic.

More here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/nyregion/08irish.html?em&ex=1194843600&en=1c7fcd79481b7928&ei=5087%0A

Nice vid btw.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Above, Jacqueline quotes van Dale regarding Afrikaans *skorvoet* and Dutch *
schoorvoetend*:
" de voeten schrap zettend, thans  alleen fig. tegenstribbelend, aarzelend
of weifelend voort- of te werk gaan"

Hmm ... I wonder if this has anything to do with German and Low Saxon *scharren
~ schurren* 'to scrape', 'to shuffel (one's feet)'. If so, there's supposed
to be a connection between this and German *schaben*, Low Saxon
*schaven*and English
*shave*.

This may may show us once again that a large number of forms have been
generated from a fairly small number of ancestral roots.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/c562aab2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 18:26:57 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:26:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.10 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.102657.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (04) [E]

 Sorry brah, I wen forget ALL da kine pidgins was Lowlands (I come
Pearl side, but live long time up Makiki way -- mauka-side, brah, so
no LOW lands, so no give me da stink eye, eh?). Ain no way I go India
widout my copy Lee Tonouchi's Living Pidgin an' also Da Word (dat one
FUNNY book, eh, j'like wen we waz kids) ... So dat make, wat, EIGHT
Lowlands languages I gon take wit? Eh braddah, get so many! Maybe
betta jes go whole cheese and take 'em all!
Ok whoa! That was cool Mike! Was that Tok Pissin or Bicilama? I'm fascinated
by the English creoles, especially the ones down in the Caribbean.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ben, Mike, folks,

Apart from the entertainment value that pidgin and creole varieties tend to
have, I believe they are extremely valuable scientifically as well in that
they offer a fairly clear glimpse at an important part of language
development.

After all, there is no language on earth that has escaped contacts with
other languages, contacts that more or less influenced it and its further
development. So there is really no strict dividing line between "mixed
languages" and "pure languages," the latter of which are just a figment of
people's wishful thinking.

Pidgins and creoles (the former being non-native, the latter native) are
simply the most extreme type on a sliding scale, followed closely by *
Missingsch* and *Stadfries* types, followed by varieties exemplified by
Gullah, African American Vernacular (Ebonics). And English, Scots and
Afrikaans are not very far behind, then English of South and Southeast Asia,
then English anywhere outside Europe ... and so forth. Yiddish, Ladino and
the many other Jewish languages fit in there somewhere, too. If we care to
pay attention, we can now witness the early evolution of Turkish-, Kurdish-
and Arabic- and otherwise influenced varieties of Danish, Dutch, German,
French, etc.

One of the beauties of pidgins and creoles is that they show us the dynamics
and processes at the most extreme within fairly short periods of time.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/b8aea83e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 19:04:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:04:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.110448.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]

 From: Yasuji Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp
Subject: Plattdeutche Ortnamen

Hallo Heiko san,
I opened the site which you had itroduced and wonder whether these
plattdeutsche Ortnamen have been used since old time in this area or newly
trasnlated into Plattdeutsch. Would you please answer to my question?

Hartlich Greuten,
Yasuji, ut Japan

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: Der Kreis Stormarn hat jetzt die plattdeutschen Namen offziell
festgelegt

Leve Lowlanners,

kiekt mal op
http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html

De Krink Stormarn hett tosamen mit de Fehrs-Gill de plattdüütschen Naams för
de Öörd in Stormarn fastleggt, dormit de op de Oortsschiller kamen köönt.

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

Leve Lüüd,
> Perhaps you didn't realize what this action means.
>
> According to the list of place names Heiko had sent there are about 50
> villages to re-name (why not more?). That makes 100 plates which have to
be
> demounted, to be labeled and enameled newly and then to be re-mounted
> again. According to our local 'Straßenmeisterei' (road maintenance staff)
> it makes about 3,000 EURO per each- in summary 300,000 EURO. And that for
> just the doubtful change of one letter?! Couldn't this money be spend for
> better destinations?
1) It is not the village that is to be "renamed". It is a question of
bilingual roadsigns.
2) Such bilingual roadsigns are a direct consequence of the European Charter
for the protection of minority and regional languages. So we do not have to
discuss whether or not to do those sign. They *will* be made. The only
questions are
2.1) what are the Low Saxon names
2.2) when will the road signs be replaced. A sign does not cost 3.000 EUR
each. As long as you do only replace the road sign itself (not the sign
post), signs are available from 40 EUR each plus VAT (that would make about
50 EUR per sign), when you order sufficiently high amounts. (I do have such
an offer from an official sign making company at home). Some administration
has put incredibly high prices in circulation just to undermine the change
process. A whole smaller town could change 20 signs for about 1000 EUR,
which
should be within the budget limits. And I would say that money would be well
spent. One could also try to find sponsors. In the case of Glinde, there is
an offer (as far as I remember) by the local Plattdeutschverein to pay half
of the money. Another important thing to remember is that roadsigns have a
"life expectancy" of about 10 years. So every now and then a road sign will
have to be replaced anyway. If one just decides to use the bilingual signs
from now on, then the whole replacing would be done within 10 years with NO
SINGLE EXTRA EURO SPENT!!!!

> What the heck is the difference between e.g. 'Lütjensee' and 'Lüttensee'?
> Ridiculous, isn't it? "Eine echte deutsche Amtsposse (a 'bureaucratic coup
> de farce')- Schilda (pun intended) lässt grüßen!"
You are completely missing the point. The point is to make Low Saxon visible
to everyone who passes through the city.

> After generations of foreign geometers, half-analphabetical
> 'Amtsschreibern' (communal clerks) now we meet the generation of
non-native
> people to arrogate themselves, as a sovereign act of the provincial
> government ('fastleggen'), to fog continuously grown structures.
Please stick to the truth. Non-native? Those people involved in making the
list where native speakers and they asked the local native speakers of the
towns for their opinions.

> And how should it be run in Northern Frisia? As far as I know some
villages
> there have, besides their official German name, a Danish, a North Frisian
> and a Low Saxon one. New Babylon!
In some cases there might be a need for more than 2 names on the road sign.
I
am just wondering why you are not complaining about the North Frisian names
on the road signs. There the process has been the same. It took quite a
while
of lobbying work until the government understood its obligations that it
entered when it recognized North Frisian as protected language under the EU
language charter. And then the names were listed and then the road signs
were
changed. Do you also complain here, when Breklum (German) and Brääklem
(North
Frisian) do not differ much? In your opinion: Was the money wasted there?
Just in case you think so: it does not make a difference. Pacta sunt
servanda. If you sign a EU language charter you are bound to protect the
languages that you named.

> And- as Ron mentioned if I understand him correctly- there should be
really
> existing, still used Low Saxon names. If not, why to invent them? For what
> reason if the people, the inhabitants themselves don't use or even never
> have heard them? Just to bedevil the tourists ;-)?
The current names are not "unreal", they were made by native speakers in
close
collaboration. If there is any name where you have a better proposal, please
name it here and we can discuss about it.

> Wenn ich mir die Liste
>
> http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html
>
> genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest denkbar, dass als Gegenreaktion
> rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden, wie zb. Bad Altenlohe,
> Barssiedel, Bruch, Brunsbach (Braunbach), Grünwald, Heidekampf,
> Heilshaufen, Jersbach, Lasbach, Kleinsee, Münchhagen, Neuwald,
> Oststeinbach, Reinbach, Siech, Zangstadt, Tremssiedel, Witzhafen.
Among all the Dummtüüch that I have read and heard in the news this year,
nothing even comes close to this comment of yours.

Heiko

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Moin, Heiko!

Thanks for clarifying various points above, some of which were news to me.

Just for the record, in case this got lost in the shuffle, my question about
the authenticity of Low Saxon place name choices was not meant to imply
opposition to the project. I was merely mystified, in part by Jonny's
response (e.g. "ancestors spinning in their graves") as well as by gaps in
my knowledge. It would indeed by very useful for all of us if we were kept
current on this so as to avoid ingestion of red herrings.

I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language assertion
events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to increased Welsh
language use in the late 20th century on a road paved with bureaucratic
stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this with us quite some time
ago.

I have a question with regard to Schleswig-Holstein, with relevance to the
Saterland area of Lower Saxony as well.

As most of us know, Schleswig-Holstein is the linguistically most diverse
state of Germany, if we don't consider "foreigners'" languages everywhere.
It is true that some communities use more than two languages. I have
noticed, for instance on language maps, that people want to whittle this
down to a maximum of two languages, such as German and North Frisian in
Northern Friesland, when Low Saxon and in some cases Danish are used there
as well (and Low Saxon is used in Saterland as well). Personally I don't
object to more than two languages on a sign (as long as signs are designed
in a clear fashion), find objections to this little more than a diversion
technique. So, my question is if there are going to be restrictions in this
regard.

It is always easy to dismiss efforts like this sign project as
inconsequential, as frivolous and as tokenism. However, I believe that
symbolism is worth some money and effort in that its visibility is likely to
be both educational and encouraging. The alternative would be business as
usual, which means ignoring, non-recognition, misinformation, ignorance and
in many cases probably the wish to hasten language death to bring about
fulfillment of the (pipe) dream of linguistic "purity" and homogeneity as
main ingredients for the creation of "unity" within national boundaries.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/5abe7cca/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 19:31:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:31:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.113142.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (01) [D/E]

Elsie gives the definition of Afrikaans skoorzoek as looking for trouble and
skoorvoet as walking around looking for trouble.

Hi Elsie, Guess what! In Dutch schoorvoetend means (and I am quoting van
Dale) " de voeten schrap zettend, thans  alleen fig. tegenstribbelend,
aarzelend of weifelend voort- of te werk gaan". If we assume that the word
came to South Africa with the original sailors, we need to ask somebody with
a historical dictionary to find out what it meant in the 16th century
andwhether the meaning changed in the Northern hemisphere or in the South.
Jacqueline

And then Ron comes up with this:

<<Hmm ... I wonder if this has anything to do with German and Low
Saxon *scharren
~ schurren* 'to scrape', 'to <shuffel (one's feet)'. If so, there's supposed
to be a connection between this and German *schaben*, Low <Saxon
*schaven*and English
*shave*.
<This may may show us once again that a large number of forms have been
generated from a fairly small <number of ancestral roots.

Dutch knows both ""schaven" (to plane, to polish and that must certainly be
a 1st cousin to chafe) and "scheren" (to shave a beard or to shear a sheep)

There is another Dutch derivation?? with a totally differerent meaning. "Een
mensenschaar a large group of people" from the verb "scharen" to come
together for a lofty purpose. How interesting to see one root acquire so
many different meanings. Jacqueline
----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Howdy, Naversch Jacqueline!

There is another Dutch derivation?? with a totally differerent meaning. "Een
mensenschaar a large group of people" from the verb "scharen" to come
together for a lofty purpose.

Indeed! I see your etymological antennae are growing very nicely.

Dutch and Low Saxon *schaar* and German *Schar *'host (of people)' do indeed
belong to this family, as does ... tadah! ... English "share" both in the
sense of "division" and "blade of a plow".

And here's another tadah: "sharp" and its equivalents are members of this
family as well!

How interesting to see one root acquire so many different meanings.

This is one of the reasons why etymology can be quite thrilling (probably in
a "geeky" sort of way).

As you can see, we are dealing with roots and affixes. In this regard,
Indo-European is very much like its two large Eurasian comrades: Uralic and
Altaic, except that they only use suffixes (such as the **-p* in "sharp"),
no prefixes (such as the **s-* in this family of **ker-* *'cut').

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/6c8e3528/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 19:37:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:37:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.10 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.113747.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.09 (03) [E]

 Haai, Elsie!

Subject: L-Lowlands (terminology).

Come, let us prick Ron's curiosity.

As you report, Oorlams is a rural-based creole mostly found in the Northern
Cape and Namibia,
interspersed with Nama... & Incidentally, the adjective 'oorlams' means
to be cheeky, excited, insolent.

But that's not all, & to follow the word in it's history casts in an
unforgiving light the presumption that this our South Africa ever developed
in isolation.

In the earlier years of our history you got three classes of South African
White - those straight from Nederland(ideally) were dubbed 'Vaderlands'.
Those who had acquired further polish in the Far East were dubbed 'Oorlams',
& those who had the misfortune to be born & bred in this country passed for
'Afrikaner'.

The Verklarende Afrikaanse Woordeboek (Kritzinger, Labuschagne & Nienaber)
has this to say, (in translation with the sister volume Kritzinger, Steyn,
Schoonees & Cronje'), clever, handy, shrewd, sharp, fly (*'n oorlamse
skepsel*) a Hottentot, Bushman or even Bantu well-versed in the language &
ways of white people; an old hand.

Boshoff & Nienaber (Afrikaanse Terminologie) trace it back as early as Van
Riebeek to the Malayan 'orang lama' = someone that (long ago) came (to the
Far East).

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks a lot for educating us further about Oorlams, Mark. Very interesting!

If we had an Oorlams wren I would use this information in the accompanying
information ... 8-)

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I hope everything went well for your Ruth yesterday. Please give her
my love and encouragement.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/9593d619/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 01:38:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:38:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.173842.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: "Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: CMT Syndrome

Dear All,

Nearly hot off the press: Neurologist is sending me for tests in January,
but highly doubts I have anything other than really deformed feet! (Never
thought that would be a good thing, but it obviously can be.) Says if I've
had the foot problem for years I would have other symptoms, too. Very
relieved and thankful for your support...

Ruth/ Caterina

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Members' news

Thanks a lot, Ruth! I was thinking of you ever since Mark gave us the news.

This is great, at least as far as an interim report is concerned. Keep that
up!

In the meantime, take lots of foot baths, then have Mark massage your poor,
little footsie, and you'll be good for hitting the dance floor and knocking
'em dead as usual, you belle of the ball, you.

Love and best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/e2ee18be/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 01:43:06 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:43:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.174306.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (01) [D/E]

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
> Beste Lowlanders,
>
> According to Daniel Cassidy, much of (American) English slang was
> actually derived from Irish.
> The guy won the American Book Award for nonfiction this year with a
book
> in which he explains how common words like "dork", "slum", "buddy",
> "geezer", "dude", "dig" and many others can all be traced back to
Irish
> Gaelic.
>
> More here:
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/nyregion/08irish.html?em&ex=1194843600&en=1c7fcd79481b7928&ei=5087%
>0A

Amateur etymology at its worst.

"Buddy" is from the Irish "bodach" meaning "lusty youth"? Why not from
West Country English "butty", meaning "friend"? Note the semantic
equivalence.

"Glom" is a Scots word cognate with English "glum" and so on. Again,
these are semantically related, "glum" being the sort of face a person
makes when an uncomfortable truth suddenly dawns on them (see Scottish
National Dictionary for more).

This isn't to say that he's wrong about everything, but if you set out
to prove that everything comes from some favoured language, you'll find
plenty of coincidental "evidence". Look at the "some American Indian
tribes speak Welsh" fiasco.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/92bc54c1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 02:32:15 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:32:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (08) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.183215.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Moin, Heiko!
> I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language
> assertion events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to
> increased Welsh language use in the late 20th century on a road paved
> with bureaucratic stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this
> with us quite some time ago.

It was just a matter of civil servants in London ruling that if signs
were to be changed to bilingual English and Welsh, then an application
would have to be made for each sign individually. So Welsh language
activists started doing exactly that. In the end it would seem that it
was easier to just put up all new signs as bilingual than put up a new
sign in English only to have to go back and change it after it was
spotted by a Welsh speaker.

As an aside, on a recent weekend in Jersey (not New Jersey!) I was a bit
surprised at the way signage was handled. Street and road names were
either in French or English, but not both. Occasionally a street would
have a sign in both French and English - but only because the name of
the street was completely different in French from in English, ie the
signage wasn't a translation.

It seems to me that streets were signed as whatever people actually
called them, and this is normally either French or English, but not
both?

I only saw one example of signage in Jersey French, which was the
"Welcome to Jersey" sign etched on the class door at the boat terminal
in St Helier. There was no accompanying English or French.

Unfortunately none of the Local Interest sections of Jersey bookshops
seemed to have anything in or about Jersey French.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Heiko Evermann <Heiko.Evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]

Hi Yasuji Waki,
> I opened the site which you had itroduced and wonder whether these
> plattdeutsche Ortnamen have been used since old time in this area or newly
> trasnlated into Plattdeutsch. Would you please answer to my question?
Actually, I do not know how old the names are. I just know
1) from my E-mail contacts with Heinrich Thies, that they had quite some
discussions with local people and took their wishes. This led to some
irregularities: -beek vs. -bääk, Pölitz (slavic name kept) vs. Barns (slavic
name Barnitz adapted), Oschloe (where I would have suggested Oschloh)
2) that the names look quite natural to me. So it does not matter whether
the name is 1000 years old, 100 years or a recent adaption. What matters is
that they make sense and that the local people were involved and asked for
their opinion
3) any mistakes could still be changed if a better name is proposed or a
different name is proven to be in actual use.

Hi Ron,
> I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language
> assertion
> events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to increased
> Welsh
> language use in the late 20th century on a road paved with bureaucratic
> stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this with us quite some time
> ago.
That is my hope, too. For that people have to notice the language as often
as possible and road signs are a valuable part of that. Of course other
steps have to follow like: usage of the language in the official web pages.
A good example for this is New Zealand where every official website seems to
use at least a little bit of Maori, like the university of Christchurch, see
http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/ in the upper right corner. Even if it is just
the letterhead of official letters or the signature (der Bürgermeister von
Großhansdorf/de Börgermeester vun Groothansdörp). This would show a respect
for the language that is often missing nowadays and I am very sure that it
would help.

> I have a question with regard to Schleswig-Holstein, with relevance to the
> Saterland area of Lower Saxony as well.
>
> As most of us know, Schleswig-Holstein is the linguistically most diverse
> state of Germany, if we don't consider "foreigners'" languages everywhere.
> It is true that some communities use more than two languages. I have
> noticed, for instance on language maps, that people want to whittle this
> down to a maximum of two languages, such as German and North Frisian in
> Northern Friesland, when Low Saxon and in some cases Danish are used there
> as well (and Low Saxon is used in Saterland as well). Personally I don't
> object to more than two languages on a sign (as long as signs are designed
> in a clear fashion), find objections to this little more than a diversion
> technique. So, my question is if there are going to be restrictions in
> this
> regard.
The official "Erlass" by the ministry in Kiel is reported in
http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/HinweisePlatt.htm
"Eine Ausgestaltung von Ortstafeln in mehr als zwei Sprachen sollte
möglichst vermieden werden, zumal ein "Katalog" unterschiedlicher
Ortsbezeichnungen auch die Aussagekraft der einzelnen Zusatzbezeichnungen
erheblich schmälern würde. Die Einzelfallentscheidung bleibt insoweit der
jeweiligen Gemeinde überlassen."
To this I would say: Well, dream on and get familiar with the contents and
the spirit of the EU language charter. But at least it says "sollte
möglichst vermieden werden" (should be avoided if possible) and "Die
Einzelfallentscheidung bkleibt insoweit der jeweiligen Gemeinde überlassen".
(The decision is with the local community)
I do not know how many communities would be affected by this rule. I just
know that the Danes (their minority party SSW) were the first to complain.
 Even though they do not do German "subtitles" on their side of the border
at all!!! And even though they did not have any Danish roadsigns in
Sleswig-Holsteen so far. My guess is that not even the government in Kiel
knows how many communities would have a problem. It was quite an effort to
compile the list for Stormarn (not within the Danish or the North Frisian
area), so probably not even the Low Saxons in the affected areas would know.
We will just wait what happens and my personal guess is that we will have a
certain number of communities that will make use of the exception. The
problem will probably be of a limited scope for Low Saxon as I do not expect
Low Saxon place names for North Frisian place names like "Breklum" or
"Hörnum". I would expect to see more trouble between Danes and Frisians, but
we will have to see. Over time the ministry in Kiel will have to accept road
signs with three names.

By the way, Jonny, is there any place where you have a better proposal for a
Low Saxon place name? The current list is going to settle into the minds of
the people a litte bit more every day. It will be copied, it will be found
by google, the names are already in the Wikipeida, it will just stick. So
hurry up. :)
Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks a lot, Sandy and Heiko!

Heiko, I have a possibly sensative question about the thing with the Danish
community. If you don't have the answer(s), perhaps you could ask Heinrich
Thies.

I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area." Yes, the by far
highest concentration of ethnic Danes of the state live in the north, namely
in Schleswig, the closer to the border the higher the concentration.

(Remember that, technically speaking, Schleswig-Holstein is Southern Jutland
and that many Danes think of it that way, though *Sønderjylland/Synnejylland
* "Southern Jutland" is now an administrative area within today's Denmark,
and pretty much all Danes think of Schleswig on today's German side of the
border as *Sønderslesig/Synneslesvig* "Southern Schleswig," as opposed
to *Nordslesvig
*"Northern Schleswig" on today's Danish side of the border.)

As may be known to many of our Lowlanders, pretty much all of today's German
state of Schleswig-Holstein was Danish territory for quite some time, all
the way down to the northern bank of the Elbe Rivers. In fact, some
communities that have meanwhile been integrated into the city state Hamburg
(e.g. Altona) used to be under the Danish crown as well. For this reason,
there are many place names all over the state whose names have Danish
equivalents as well (even Hamburg = Hamborg, which was just outside Denmark
then).

As I said, this may be politically sensitive, but how is this going to be
handled?

I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area," since this sounds
a bit like a "homeland" in the old South African context. While there are
areal concentrations, I know that Danish Germans live all over the state,
especially in the larger towns and cities and of course in and around the
capital Kiel, since ethnic Danes participate in pretty much everything like
everyone else, and it's their state as well -- the *whole* state. This is
similar to speakers of Low Saxons, while even within its "homeland" Northern
Friesland the Frisian community is now sparse and mostly rural, and there
are few actual communities of North Frisian speakers outside, with the
exception of Kiel maybe.

As a member of the Scandinavian Association I used to rub shoulders with
lots of Danes of Northern Germany, temporary and permanent Danish
expatriates as well as Danish Germans. There was then a pretty darn large
community of them in and around Hamburg, and I expect this hasn't changed
much. Some Danes came from nearby, i.e. from southern places in
Schleswig-Holstein when there were large meetings in Hamburg (e.g. in the
Christmas season), and I understand that they had smaller communities where
they lived. Bear in mind that after World War II many Schleswig Germans or
part-Germans declared themselves Danish, also that frequently Danish was
chosen as the home language in cases of "mixed" marriages, and not all of
those people remained in the north. -- I think that by now you got my point.

I realize that, should this be considered in name displays, this could open
an old can of worms. This would not be a can strictly of German worms for
ethnic Germans and Danish worms for ethnic Danes, but many ethnic Germans,
especially in the north of the state, have traditions of favoring Danish
rule to German rule, at least within the Schleswig area. Could fear of this
be in part to blame for not applying Danish naming throughout the state?

Below is a list of color-coded examples.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

*German  Low Saxon  Frisian  Danish*

Bredstedt  (Breestedt?)  Bräist  Bredsted

Eckernförde  Eckernför/Eckernföör  ?  Egernførde/Ekernførde/Egernfjord

Fehmarn  Fehmarn  ?  Femern

Flensburg  Flensborg  Flansborj  Flensborg

Friedrichstadt  (Freerkstadt?)  Fräärstää  Frederiksstad

Glücksburg  Glücksborg/Lücksborg  ?  Lyksborg

Glückstadt  Glückstadt  ?  Lykstad

Harrislee  Harrislee  ?  Harreslev

Helgoland  Helgoland  deät Lun/Hålilönj  Helgoland

Holstein  Holsteen  Holstiinj  Holsten

Lübeck  Lübeck  ?  Lybæk

Nordfriesland  Noordfreesland  Nordfraschlönj  Nordfrisland

Pellworm  Pellworm  Pälweerm  Pelvorm

Rendsburg  (Rensborg?)  ?  Rendsborg

Schleswig  Sleswig  Slaswik  Slesvig

Sörup  Sörup  ? Sørup

Stapelholm  Stapelholm  ?  Stabelholm

Sylt  Sylt  Söl'  Sild

Tönning  Tönning  Taning  Tønning

Westerland  Westerland  Wäästerlön  Vesterland
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/46d63e7c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 05:15:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:15:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2007.11.10 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.211555.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 09
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Dear Lowlanders,

This is to let you know that our Felix has refurbished his intro at our
Anniversary site (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/):

Afrikaans: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/felix.php
English: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/felix-en.php
German: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/felix-de.php

Thanks a lot, Felix, as always the mostly silent support that you represent,
and, seen from my personal angle, someone who truly "gets it."

Folks, we're getting closer to our 13th anniversary (mid-April to mid-May).
This is the time for you to change or add your intro and to send in your
translations and sound recordings, if you make them yourself or twist other
people's arms. This is your chance to put rarely mentioned language
varieties on the world map. Please send any material to me, and let me know
if you need any answers and/or help.

Please bear in mind that this is a rather successful site, our most popular
one to which quite a lot of educational sites are linking.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/0e96ef11/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 05:35:24 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:35:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.213524.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 10
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.09 (02) [E]

Ben Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>  asked:

> What're ya gonna be doin' down in India?

I will be heading an NPO, started in 2005 but only now expanded enough
to require a director. Quoting from our home page, our "main aim is to
improve the educational achievement of Deaf children and adults in
India. We are establishing educational networks in order to run
continuing education classes, distance education programs, and
literacy improvement courses. All of our courses are taught using the
medium of sign language. Our ultimate goal is setting up full-fledged
tertiary education streams for deaf students. We are associated with a
number of national and international organizations and individuals who
are closely involved with the field of bilingual-bi cultural education
programs for the Deaf."  (Setting up things on the Indian side for the
start of the fiirst univeristy-level course in 2 years leading to a BA
degree in Sign Language Applied Linguistics (through UCLAN in England)
will be part of my duties as managing director.)

Anyone interested in more details can ask me off-list ... or can go to
the Ishara Foundation website for more details, including an
introduction in Indian Sign language by one of our founders and board
of directors (and a friend of mine), Sibaji Panda:
    http://www.ishara.org/

> What were you up to up in Japan?

How to answer? The short answer would be: teaching at university (by
preference, anything but English (most specifically  Russian); by
necessity/demand, mostly English ... hence my general joy at moving
on), but that would MISS ALL the important things. And the important
things are (in no particular order)
1) drinking Ebisu beer (a label produced by Sapporo beer company, and
named after the only indiginously Japanese of the Seven Gods of
Fortune ... indigenous also in the sense of his Ainu connections) [NB:
all my FREE beer, however, comes from a friend who works for for a
competing beer company, Suntory.]
2) using Japan as a base for LOTS of travel, especially to Asia (NB:
to SOME, uniniated, Japan IS a part of Asia ... to whom I respond:
Yeah, and England IS a part of Europe! ... In your dreams!!!)
3) eating zaru-soba (cold buckwheat noodles) with REAL (i.e. freshly
"ground", NOT out of a tube) wasabi  (see my comments some time ago
about the comparative virtues of the fresh vs tubed root)
4) doing sign language research, and being active in the local Deaf
community in a variety of ways
5) becoming ever more cynical about the state of the world (something
that perhaps comes naturally to many of us in  this day and age!)

> You haven't forgotten the good oal US of A have ya?

No, and every time I return to the US of A I remember many thing I had
tried so HARD to forget ...making me, thanks in part to the PATRIOT
Act (but actually more to the general environment that produced that
act), as Ron so aptly described me, an EX-pat(riot). [NB: exaccerabted
by the fact my name (or rather someone else with the SAME name) is on
the watch list. I feel like I did in highschool whenever I got that
OTHER "Michael Morgan"'s (MPM not MWM!) report card at Rantoul
Township High School ... yes, my mother knew the difference, but the
shock of seeing all those letters WAY down the alphabet was still
real!)

STILL, sometimes the longing to see family and friends gets me to go
through all that hastle.

[ASIDE: As of Nov 20th (the day AFTER I leave Japan), Japan will adopt
yet another western practice and start fingerprinting and photographic
ALL non Japanese at the airport ... though, as always, they will apply
the Japanese principle of "borrow and improve": unlike the US who
exempts non-citizen residents (Green-card holders, etc), Japan will
apply the new requirements to ALL foreigners INCLUDING permanent
residents (except for permanent-resident Koreans ... I guess in
unspoken acknowledgment that their Japanese citizenship was illegally
stripped from them by act of Diet in the late '50s.)

Anyway,  I will see all of you in India! (on the list, if not in person)

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )

++++++++++++++++

茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/f778eda0/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 17:24:57 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:24:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.092457.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Sandy,

You're right about Daniel Cassidy being opinionated (to put it mildly).
I found out he hasn't been able (so far) to provide any sound scientific
evidence for his theory:

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/grantbarrett/

Cassidy is professor in "Irish Studies" at some university in
California. Maybe that's what "fooled" the New York Times?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

And to go along with Afrikaans skêr, you failed to mention:
the Sotho-Tsawa languages:
both Sesotho and seTswana : sekêrê pl: dikêrê
Sepedi (Northern Sotho) : sekêrô  pl: dikêrô

the Nguni languages:
isiZulu : isikele pl: izikele
siSwati : sikelo  pl: tikelo
isiXhosa : isikere  pl : izikere (I have also run across the forms
isikela/izikela ... but i think those are NOt the current normative
forms)

and the other two Bantu languages of Suid Afrika:
Venda : tshigero  pl : zwigero
Tsona-Shangaan : xikero  pl : swikero

In all these cases the word, which has been borrowed from the
Afrikaans, has been nativized and put into the (phonetically)
appropriate noun class (7/8 in the traditional system). [As for the
basis of what is "phonetically appropriate", to use isiXhosa as a
case, the isi-/izi- class include, to quote Pahl, Ntusi and
Burns-Ncamashe's 1983 grammar:
"(d) Izibizo ezivela kumagama eelwimi zasemzini aqala ngo-s.
Imiz.: isitalato < straat
isitena < steen
isikolo < skool
isitofu < stoof"

For the benefit of those FEW Lowlands-List members whose isiXhosa is a
bit rusty, a failry loose English "translation" would be:
[The isi-/izi- noun class includes] "(d) foreign nouns beginning in "s-":
E.g.: isitalata < straat (street)
isiteena < steen (stone)
isikolo < skolo (school)
isitofu < stoof (foot-stove)"

I am sorry that I don't know what the non-Bantu, non-IE languages
(i.e. Khoi-San) have for this term, as my 2 months in ZA were focussed
in the NE (and so my knowledge of even isiXhosa is mostly thanks to
its linguistic proximity to siSwati and isiZulu).

This is similar to what we find happening in other Bantu languages
outside the Afrikaans realm. Thus, the most famous Swahili example is
kitabu 'book', borrowed from Arabic, which got put into the Swahili
ki-/vi- class  making it kitabu pl: vitabu. [NB Swahili, if memory
serves me, has lost the traditional class 7/8. Sorry, though i can't
swear by that, as an attempt to locate my references on comparative
Bantu nominal morphology failed. No doubt it is in limbo somewhere
between to-go-with and runner-up shelves!)]
--
MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )

++++++++++++++++

茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/bcb29ea2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 17:30:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:30:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.093053.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (08) [E/German]

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]
>
> > From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Language varieties
> >
> > Moin, Heiko!
<snip>
> As an aside, on a recent weekend in Jersey (not New Jersey!) I was a bit
> surprised at the way signage was handled. Street and road names were
> either in French or English, but not both. Occasionally a street would
> have a sign in both French and English - but only because the name of
> the street was completely different in French from in English, ie the
> signage wasn't a translation.
>
> It seems to me that streets were signed as whatever people actually
> called them, and this is normally either French or English, but not
> both?
>
> I only saw one example of signage in Jersey French, which was the
> "Welcome to Jersey" sign etched on the class door at the boat terminal
> in St Helier. There was no accompanying English or French.
>
> Unfortunately none of the Local Interest sections of Jersey bookshops
> seemed to have anything in or about Jersey French.

There's only one book I've seen about the Channel Islands' French; the
dialect
is Norman French (The Channel Islands being the only part of the Duchy of
Normandy still under the English Crown's control after the Hundred Years
War.), and the book lamented to some degree that it was not as widely spoken
as it used to be.  Sadly I don't have the book, and can't recall its name.
I'll try to dig it up.

FWIW ;)

Wesley Parish

--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

I have a Jersey French wren story translation someone made and someone else
sent me, but the translator doesn't respond when asked if we could display
it. How sad is *that*?

Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/f747a66c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 18:05:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:05:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.100555.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.10 (02) [E]

Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com> sked:
> Ok whoa! That was cool Mike! Was that Tok Pissin or Bicilama?

Neither actually, but rather Hawaiian Creole English (aka Pigin, aka
Da Kine) ... or rather My extremely rusty HCE.

Although born on the mainland to mainland parents (I mentioned my
almost-Apalachian mother), I actaully learned to talk (and to NOT wear
shoes) in Hawaii (as I mentioned, on the Pearl City side of the Oahu),
with HCE-speaking neighborhood kids. Much later, after many years o
the mainland, I met (in Nepal) and eventually married (in California)
my wife, who was born on Maui (but left at age 7 to spend the rest of
her childhood in Alaska where she was, being Japanese-American, often
mistaken for an "Eskimo", so she has no HCE infleunces other than some
HCE vocabulary items, which she long thought were Japanese, as her
grandmother spoke NO Standrad English, but only Japanese and HCE ...
and usually a 80:20 mix .., and her mother and eldest sister, both
long-time California residents, speak Standard English but with
noticable HCE accents), and we retunred to the Isles for a time where
our son (whose middle name is Makani "Big Wind") was born (almost on
Maui like his mom, but actually on Oahu thanks to a shift in the
approaching Typhoon -- hence his name).

While I never claim to be an HCE speaker (at least NOT since the age
of 4 or so), HCE is one of the many linguistic linputs into MY
language identity ... and one of which I am VERY proud!

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )

++++++++++++++++

茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Howzit, Mike, brah, an mahalo!

I thought I'd casually mention -- and your mind might be inquiring enough to
want to know -- that I have long had fantasies about a Da Kine Wren -- let's
call him "Da Wren" or "Da Manu Mākūhikuhi" for now. Jalike?

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/ae26ebee/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 22:55:43 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:55:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.11 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.145543.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (10) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

The Morgan-Bloomgren exchange (see infra) served to remind me of many of the
reasons I have been a delighted and committed Lowlands-L member for some
years. It's because of folks like y'all. Your spirit of unconditional (or
perhaps just low-return) love of humanity, and your generosity of intellect
has been uplifting and refreshing. And that goes for all of  you.
Thanks for being there.

Arthur A. Jones

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/1bd4d55b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 01:12:54 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:12:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.11 (05) [E/LS/Danish/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.171254.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (08) [E/German]

Leve Lowlanners
> It was just a matter of civil servants in London ruling that if signs
> were to be changed to bilingual English and Welsh, then an application
> would have to be made for each sign individually. So Welsh language
> activists started doing exactly that. In the end it would seem that it
> was easier to just put up all new signs as bilingual than put up a new
> sign in English only to have to go back and change it after it was
> spotted by a Welsh speaker.
That is a good idea. Perhaps we should do the same here in Germany.

Hi Ron,
> Heiko, I have a possibly sensative question about the thing with the
Danish
> community. If you don't have the answer(s), perhaps you could ask Heinrich
> Thies.
Languages are always sensitive.
>
> I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area." Yes, the by far
> highest concentration of ethnic Danes of the state live in the north,
> namely in Schleswig, the closer to the border the higher the
concentration.
I was referring to the area that has a Danish minority.

> (Remember that, technically speaking, Schleswig-Holstein is Southern
> Jutland and that many Danes think of it that way, though
> *Sønderjylland/Synnejylland * "Southern Jutland" is now an administrative
> area within today's Denmark, and pretty much all Danes think of Schleswig
> on today's German side of the border as *Sønderslesig/Synneslesvig*
> "Southern Schleswig," as opposed to *Nordslesvig
> *"Northern Schleswig" on today's Danish side of the border.)

> As may be known to many of our Lowlanders, pretty much all of today's
> German state of Schleswig-Holstein was Danish territory for quite some
> time, all the way down to the northern bank of the Elbe Rivers. In fact,
> some communities that have meanwhile been integrated into the city state
> Hamburg (e.g. Altona) used to be under the Danish crown as well. For this
> reason, there are many place names all over the state whose names have
> Danish equivalents as well (even Hamburg = Hamborg, which was just outside
> Denmark then).

Well, the Wikipedia says in http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jütland
that only the danish part of this peninsula is referred to as Jütland. I
have
only heard "Southern Jutland" with reference to Schlewig, not with reference
to Holstein. The english wikipedia sees things a little bit different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutland "Holstein has never been part of
Jutland
proper, but is geographically situated on the Jutland Peninsula. The
peninsula is also called the Cimbrian Peninsula, Jutland-Holstein or
Jutland-Schleswig-Holstein. "

Anyway, the old Sprachgrenze (language border) is " Eider – Treene –
Eckernförde." This had also been the political border for quite some time.
An
example is the border of the "Heiliges Römische Reich Deutscher Nation" from
1648 as depicted in
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648.png
The language border changed over time and moved northwards. I once saw maps
about this, but I do not remember where.

To my knowledge Holstein has never been part of Denmark. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein
"It was from 1111–1474 a County of the Holy Roman Empire, although later
occupied by Denmark during the TBDL war in the early years of the 13th
century[clarify], and thereafter became an Imperial (reichsunmittelbar)
Duchy
until the dissolution of the Empire in 1806. In 1460 Holstein became
inherited, along with the Danish Duchy of Schleswig, by the King of Denmark,
who necessarily, and whose heirs, ruled the two territories as Dukes (and
not
as kings).
..
From 1815 to 1864 the Duchy of Holstein was part of the German
Confederation,
though still in personal union with Denmark (the King of Denmark being also
Duke of Holstein). "

That means the king of Denmark happened to be the Duke of Holstein and ruled
both his kingdom Denmark and his duchy Holstein in personal union.

The story then continued with
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch-Dänischer_Krieg

"Nach dem ersten Schleswig-Holsteinischen Krieg behielt die dänische Krone
zwar die Hoheit über Schleswig, Holstein und Lauenburg, verpflichtete sich
aber, die Herzogtümer als selbständige Einheiten innerhalb des Gesamtstaates
zu behandeln. Zudem sollte nach dem Londoner Protokoll von 1852 Schleswig
verfassungsmäßig nicht enger an Dänemark gebunden werden als Holstein und
Lauenburg.
Die dänische Novemberverfassung von 1863 bezog jedoch Schleswig
vertragswidrig
mit in den dänischen Kernstaat ein. Dies wurde aus dänischer Sicht
notwendig,
um den Staat handlungsfähig zu halten."

The attempt of Denmark to integrate Schleswig (!) completely into the Danish
state then led to the military intervention by Prussia and Austria that led
to German rule over Schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg.

> I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area," since this
sounds
> a bit like a "homeland" in the old South African context.
There may be better ways in English to express what I meant.

> While there are
> areal concentrations, I know that Danish Germans live all over the state,
> especially in the larger towns and cities and of course in and around the
> capital Kiel, since ethnic Danes participate in pretty much everything
like
> everyone else, and it's their state as well -- the *whole* state. This is
> similar to speakers of Low Saxons, while even within its "homeland"
> Northern Friesland the Frisian community is now sparse and mostly rural,
> and there are few actual communities of North Frisian speakers outside,
> with the exception of Kiel maybe.
Let us just have a look at an official danish site:
http://www.gkflensborg.um.dk/de/menu/Infos/Minderheit/Grenzziehung/
This comes from the Danish general consulate in Flensborg:

"Nach Beendigung des Krieges in 1864 mußte Dänemark beim Frieden in Wien die
Herzogtümer Schleswig, Holstein und Lauenburg an die deutschen Siegermächte
abtreten. Während die beiden letztgenannten rein deutsch waren, war der
überwiegende Teil der Bevölkerung im nördlichen und mittleren Teil von
Schleswig dänischgesinnt. "

So there is no historic Danish minority in Holstein, not even the Danes
claim
otherwise. Of course there are Danes who moved to other places. I knew a
girl
of our church some 20 years ago whose father was Danish, they were living in
Elmshorn (Hostein). But that does not lead to a "Danish minority" in
Elmshorn, at least not in the sense national minorities in the borderland
are
usually defined.

> Below is a list of color-coded examples.

> Lübeck  Lübeck  ?  Lybæk
That one is nice. It does not come from -bek (Bach), but from a slavic name
"Liubice". But if the Danes like to write Lybæk, they are free to do so, but
my guess is that they will never get it on the city road signs of Lübeck as
it as never was an area with a Danish minority. It did not even belong to
the
duchy of Holstein as it was a "freie Reichsstadt" of the German Reich.

Kind regards,

Heiko

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Heiko!

Thanks for your response.

We may be splitting hairs here. My point is that with certain minorities
territorial allocation does not sit well with me. Like ethnic Germans in
Schleswig-Holstein, Danes live in both rural and urban settings and as such
they are spread out, albeit most concentrated near today's border.  Danish
is not classified as a "regional language," as far as I know.  Official
publications from Schleswig-Holstein on the state level include Danish
versions, but North Frisian ones only marginally (probably due to the small
number and regional confinement of its speakers).

True, Denmark treats the German minority similarly, confining its official
presence to Northern Schleswig. I know that German Danes have moved to other
parts as well and still speak German. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So for diplomatic reasons, the King of Denmark was officially the *Duke* of
Holstein, but he was the same person and was not a German citizen. Yes,
technically he ruled as a vassal of the German Realm ("som hertug af Holsten
var den danske konge vasal under det tyske rige"), but ...

I know that a few of my ancestors in Holstein were born Danish citizens.
Look at all the Danish and Danish-derived surnames in Holstein. Pick out the
history of various places now in and around Hamburg and find reference to
Danish rule. If you read Glikl Hameln's autobiography you get real-life
accounts of 17th- and 18th-century Hamburg Jews periodically seeking shelter
from pogroms in next-door Altona under the protection of the Danish crown,
and I have read historical accounts and stories in which citizens of
Ahrensburg (right outside Hamburg) had to travel to Copenhagen to present
petitions to the king. Some of the best historical records from and about
the area are now in Copenhagen archives.  If that is not a case of Danish
rule I don't know what is, though I'm using the word "rule" somewhat
loosely.

Altona:

Altona var indtil 1864 <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/1864> en af det danske
monarkis <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danske_Monarki> vigtigste havnebyer.
Monarkiets første jernbane <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jernbane>, Altona-
Kiel <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel> (*Christian VIII. Østersø
Jernbane<http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona-Kieler_Eisenbahn-Gesellschaft>
*), åbnedes i 1844 <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/1844>. Tabet af Altona
nødvendiggjorde bygningen af Esbjerg
Havn<http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esbjerg_Havn>.

[http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona]

Nach dem Aussterben der schauenburgischen Linie Pinneberg-Holstein (1640)
fällt Altona an das Herzogtum
Holstein<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzogtum_Holstein>und damit an
den jeweiligen dänischen König. Dieser ist in Personalunion
König von Dänemark und Herzog von Holstein und somit Lehnsnehmer des Kaisers
des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Deutscher
Nation<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_Deutscher_Nation>.
Daher ist Altona zwar bis 1806 deutsch und bis 1864 holsteinisch, steht aber
unter dänischer Verwaltung mit allen sich daraus ergebenden Angleichungen
z. B. des geltenden Rechts <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recht> und der
Währung <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4hrung>.

Am 23. August 1664 verleiht der dänische König Friedrich
III.<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_III._%28D%C3%A4nemark_und_Norwegen%29>Altona
die
Stadtrechte <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtrecht>; dieses
Privileg<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privileg>umfasst unter anderem
Zoll-, Stapel- und Gewerbefreiheiten sowie
Gerichtshoheit <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gericht>. 1683 wird eine
städtische Lateinschule gegründet, die 1738 zum Gymnasium erweitert wird,
das unter dem Namen Christianeum
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianeum>heute noch besteht. Seit
Mitte des 18. Jahrhunderts werden hier auch
zahlreiche Schüler aus Altonas jüdischen Familien aufgenommen. Mit rund
12.000 Einwohnern 1710 und rund 24.000 Einwohnern 1803 ist Altona nach
Kopenhagen die zweitgrößte Stadt innerhalb des dänischen Gesamtstaates, zu
dem neben dem Königreich Dänemark auch die Herzogtümer Schleswig und
Holstein, das Königreich Norwegen sowie Island, Grönland und die
Faröer-Inseln gehören. Außerhalb des Königreiches Dänemark ist Altona damit
sogar die größte Stadt im dänischen Gesamtstaat.
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg-Altona]

In 1664 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1664> it [Altona] received city rights
from Danish King Frederik
III<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederik_III_of_Denmark>.
Until 1864 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1864> Altona was one of the Danish
monarchy's most important harbour towns. Denmark's first railroad from
Altona to Kiel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel>, the Christian
VIII<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_VIII_of_Denmark> Baltic
Sea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea> Rail Line (*Christian VIII.
Østersø Jernbane*), was opened in 1844.
In 1867 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1867> it became part of
Prussia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia>
.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona%2C_Hamburg]
Ahrensburg:

Mit der Säkularisation
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4kularisation>auf Grund der
Reformation <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation> wurde der König von
Dänemark <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A4nemark> Eigentümer des
Gebiets. Er belohnte seinen Feldherrn Daniel
Rantzau<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Rantzau>1567 mit der
Herrschaft über diese Dörfer. Sein Bruder und Erbe Peter
Rantzau <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Rantzau> baute um 1595 den
Renaissance <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance>-Herrensitz in Form
einer Wasserburg <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Ahrensburg> und die
Schlosskirche, heute die Wahrzeichen der Stadt. Vorbildlich war die
Angliederung von "Gottesbuden" (Wohnungen für alte und mittellose Menschen)
an die Kirche.
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahrensburg]

Denmark aptly calls the historical periods of Danish "presence" in the
region *personalunion* (personal union).

So, I'm partly playing *djævelens advokaten* on behalf of our Danish
neighbors and compatriots with whose history Schleswig-Holstein's history is
inextricably entwined and who have left noticeable layers of heritage
throughout the state. Had it not been for Austrian interference (yes!), we
might still be speaking about a part of Denmark (which would probably entail
extinction of Low Saxon and Frisian in those parts, since Denmark seems to
have a knack for that). In fact, Danish-ruled Northern Schleswig and
German-ruled Schleswig-Holstein are a type of overlap of Denmark and
Germany. Now that relations have improved and Europe is supposedly growing
together, I think it's time to celebrate this rather than to play intricate
diplomatic word games. It would be nice if especially Southern Jutish, Low
Saxon and North Frisian would be prominently featured as common heritage in
this rather than only Danish and German in the way of country-to-country
business as usual.

And *advokaten* still holds that from a geographical point of view Holstein
*is* a part of the Jutland Peninsula. Allens annere is diplomaatschen
Tüünkraam. Süh so!

Of course this doesn't mean we aren't on the same page. We just turn the
pages somewhat differently. ;-)

Hold Dy styv (un hold eynluden un tweyluden uutenanner)! ;-)
*Reinhard/Ron*

***
"Livet skal forstaas baglæns, men leves forlæns."
(Life must be understood backwards but must be lived forwards.)
                                     Søren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813–1855)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/fdad6114/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 02:19:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:19:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.181948.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Dear Lowlanders,

I'd be grateful to you for some input regarding the following topic.

As we all know, English has two frequently used suffixes *-s* (/-z/):

   1. Plural marker: e.g., The Walton*s* have two son*s* and three
   daughter*s*.
   2. Genitive marker: e.g., The Walton*s'* (/-z-z/) children*'**s *names
   are somewhat odd, owing to Mr. Walton*'s *obsession with Shakespear*'s
   *plays.

However, there appears to be a third, albeit lesser-used one.

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as "Jakes." It was
quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression of
what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

* Question 1*: Is it confined to American English?

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, you hear this used mostly with women's names,
though I hear it used with men's names as well. This makes me wonder ...

*Question 2*: Is there a connotation of "cutesy" in it?

The general rule appears to be that the root must be a one-syllable
abbreviation, and certain phonological and semantic restrictions appear to
apply.

This suffix is occasionally used with terms of address rather than with
proper names; e.g., (honey >) "hons," (sweetie >) "sweets," (papa >) "pops"
(dad), (grandpapa > grandpa >) "gramps."

Those of you who watch the now syndicated US sitcom series "Friends" in the
original language may remember the somewhat odd character Phoebe being
addressed as "Phoebes" ([fi:bz]) by her friends. I personally know an Amy
who is addressed as "Ames" by her boyfriend. And there are other examples:

Examples of women's names (most seeming acceptable to me):
Als, Ames (Aims, Ayms), Auds, Babs (< Barbara), Beas, Becks, Bets (Betts),
Bobs, Cams (Kams), Cats (Kats), Chers, Cons, Debs, Evs, Gills (Jills),
Hales, Jacks, Jans, Jays, Jems, Jens, Joys, Judes, Kates (Cates), Kims
(Kyms), Kyles, Lees, Lens, Libs, Lous, Lyds, Lynns, Mats, Meens, Mels, Moes,
Molls, Nans, Nells, Nicks, Pams, Pats, Pauls, Pegs, Pens, Phils, Phoebes
(Phebes), Pipes, Prues, Raes, Rebes, Robs, Ryes, Sams, Shanes, Shawns
(Shauns), Shells, Sues, Sybs, Syds, Tabs, Tams, Tyes, Vies, Vivs, Wills,
Wins, Zoes

Examples of men's names (several seeming marginal to me for some reason):
Abes, Als, Arts, Bens, Berns, Bills, Bobs, Brades, Brads, Cals, Cams (Kams),
Cons, Dans, Daves, Dicks, Drews, Genes, Hales, Harvs, Herbs, Jacks, Jakes,
Jays, Jebs, Jims, Joes, Kevs, Kims, Kips, Lees, Lenns, Lous, Matts, Mels,
Micks, Milts, Moes (Mose, Moze), Nats, Nevs, Nicks, Pats, Petes, Phils,
Pipes, Rays (Raes), Reubes (Rubes), Ricks, Robs, Rods, Rons, Ryes, Sams,
Shells, Sids, Tads, Teds, Tyes, Vics (Vicks), Wills, Wins, Woods, Zacks
(Zaks), Zekes

The name Laz is supposed to come from Larry which comes from Lawrence.
Apparently, Laz is now seen as a separate name by some.

*Question 3*: Can this suffix be used with one-syllable names that are not
abbreviated?

Examples: *"Johns," *"Pauls," *"Lees," *"Eves," *"Brooks," *"Jeans" ... My
feeling is it can not.

Now, "my" Jake's legal name is Jake, not Jacob. However, I feel it was
subliminal association with Jacob that partly prompted me to say "Jakes," or
that made it seem possible.

*Question 4*: What might the origin of this suffix be?

*Question 5*: Does this suffix have any relatives in other languages?

Of course, it brings to mind *-s* in Latvian men's names (e.g., Filips,
Fritsis, Gabriels, Jazeps, Juris, Kristaps, Ludvigs, Mihails, Mikelis,
Pavils, Rihards, Toms, Vilhelms, Vilis). However, this is the equivalent of
Lithuanian *-as*, *-is* and *-us* (Ąžuolas, Juozapas, Virtautas, Jurgis,
Herkus) which appears to be related to (though not derived from) Greek
*-os*and Latin
*-us*. I hardly think this could develop into a suffix that expresses
affection.

I would be interested in anything you have to say about this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/415a601d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 05:01:21 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:01:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.210121.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

Hey Ron,
A good friend of mine tends/used to call me Dids/Didz but she spends a lot
of time on (English speaking) messageboards and mixes a lot of English slang
in her Dutch. Apart from her (and her sister?) I can't recall having found
the suffix in this meaning in Dutch though.

And of course my nickname fits the morphological conditions you put up for
this -s very well. With other monosyll. (Dutch) names it would sound quite
strange though: Jans?? (here usually affectionated jakke), berts?? etc are
not possible.
But as with Jakke, it is quite common in Dutch though to use diminutive
suffixes with names, and it's possible with nearly every name. So my guess
is that this -s has the same behaviour as diminutive names in Dutch (which
don't need to have a diminutive/affective connotation). (no meaning of
cutesy altså)

And my latvian friends call me Dîdriks as well;) but that's just a
nominative -s

Browsing further in your list I recognise the name Babs < Barbara, I know a
girl called Babs but nobody sees it as a form for Barbara here anymore,
while f.ex. Jakke still bears the connection to people called Jan.
And paps and mams occur in Dutch as well, but sound quite 'children
language' + northern dutch to me (and they sound horrible as well!)

Apart from these I can't come up with any examples at this late time of the
night...

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks a lot, Diederik.

(I would have expected *Dieds.)

Interesting, this Northern Dutch *paps *and *mams*, though!

Note also British English "mumsy" for one's mothers. So there's that *-s*again.

And here's another one. What shall we call it? "Derisive affection marker"?

It uses the English suffix (combination) *-ster* once to derive a noun for
the habitual performer of an action; e.g., "webster," "songster," "gangster"
and "spinster," but also "youngster."

As a "derisive affection marker" it must be accompanied by the definite
article or a possessive. It doesn't seem to sound right in a large number of
cases, much depending on the name's sound.

The following examples could be talking about a third person or addressing
the person him- or herself.

   - "And who didn't turn off the coffee maker again? Could it be ... the
   Philster?"
   - "Isn't that typical of our Babster?"
   - "So and what's the Chuckster planning for the weekend?"
   - "Late?! Surely not the Suester!"

[By the way, this suffix, with the traditional, serious usage, exists in
Dutch as well, usually forming the feminine counterpart of masculine *-er*;
e.g., *schrijver* - *schrijster *'writer'. In Middle Saxon and North Frisian
it does not necessarily express the feminine; e.g. MS
*bedrygster*'deceiver', NF
*grewster* 'grave-digger', *wäwster *'weaver'.]

As many of you know, since he became governor of California Arnold
Schwarzenegger has been nicknamed "The Governator" (because of his role in
the movie "The Terminator" [which I like to refer to as "The
Exterminator"]). Twice now I have heard Californians call him "The
Terminatester."

These days some people use German-derived *-Meister* instead; e.g.,

   - "If it isn't the Mark-Meister (~ Markster)!"
   - "So have you mentioned it to the Tim-Meister (~ Timster) yet?"

And then there's the suffix *-o* that can be used with certain one-syllable
men's names (abbreviated or not); e.g., Jacko, Ronno, Phillo, Peto, Chucko,
Johnno, Jimbo (note the "b"). I have come across this one especially in
Britain and Australia and have a feeling it's pretty old.

More to think about.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/0b3f7ea5/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 08:19:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:19:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.11 (08) [E/Hawaii Creole]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.001931.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.11 (03) [E]

Aloha, braddahs an' teetas (and also any titas out there)

Worsay!?

Reinhard/Ron (or was it Ron/Reinhard ... I often confuse the two
personalities!) wrote:
> I thought I'd casually mention -- and your mind might be inquiring enough
to
> want to know -- that I have long had fantasies about a Da Kine Wren --
let's
> call him "Da Wren" or "Da Manu Mākūhikuhi" for now. Jalike?

Go fo brok, brah! (No ste all waha, eh!)

Lataz!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Mahaloz, bra.

Yu wen rait:

Go fo brok, brah! (No ste all waha, eh!)

Na. No kan, bradda. Chi! Wot yu tink? Ai oreddi mek plenni A.

Ai wen trai fo ask yu no laik mek da trensleshen. Yu kan mo betta, no? So
wot? Yu laik o wot? Chans um, eh!

Yu no laik, ke, wotevaz.

Shuuts den, bra. Letaz.

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:
(or was it Ron/Reinhard ... I often confuse the two
personalities!)
Da Kahuna tu. Hi oreddi wen giv yu an inoa `a`ala. Go luk, eh!
http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/9c571990/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 17:54:01 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:54:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.095401.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

R/R wrote:
> Of course, it brings to mind -s in Latvian men's names (e.g., Filips,
> Fritsis, Gabriels, Jazeps, Juris, Kristaps, Ludvigs, Mihails, Mikelis,
> Pavils, Rihards, Toms, Vilhelms, Vilis). However, this is the equivalent
of
> Lithuanian -as, -is and -us (Ąžuolas, Juozapas, Virtautas, Jurgis, Herkus)
> which appears to be related to (though not derived from) Greek -os and
Latin
> -us. I hardly think this could develop into a suffix that expresses
> affection.

Yes, Latvian -s and Lithuanian -(V)s are simple the reflexes of the
Indo-European masculine singular nominative case ending. Both
langauges have a separate vocative ending (though NOT in the plural,
nor in the 2nd declension -- the most common feminine type). BUT in
modern converstaional usage the nominative is often found in place of
the vocative (OR, like Slavic Russian which long ago lost its vocative
case, in Latvian anyway, a NEW vocative, equal to the stem without ANY
ending, is found.)

Whether there has been enough Baltic language influence on (American)
English for this to be a plausible "source" of the English
affectionate diminutives or not is a real question though.

On a more speculative level, I would propose that we perhaps have here
a PLURAL, though this goes AGAINST what we usually see of the plural
being coopted into expressing a POLITE singular (tu vs vous, thou vs
you, ты vs Вы, etc). Perhaps the truncated stem (Bab < Barbara) was
seen as TOO familiar and so a POLITE plural ending was addedd (Bab+s >
Babs)? PURE specualtion on my part (and the only real-language
analogous example I have of a plural being used as an affectionate
dimiutive is RUSSIAN, where ALL male diminutives have a feminine
ending (viz my name below) ... which was in (proto)-Indo-European the
collective plural ending.

--
MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )

++++++++++++++++

茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: karlrein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E

It occurs to me that Pops --  one's father, or addressing an older man --
was common in New York City at least sixty years ago.  So I have always
associated 'Phoebs' <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_> in
Friends as a New York phenomenon, despite
Babs<?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>and the like.
But reading your discussion, it suddenly dawned on me that
there was Moms Mabley <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>, who
died years ago, already elderly.  For the younger readers,  may I explain
that she was a lovable nightclub entertainer known for her foul language.

Karl [Reinhardt]

From: R. F <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>. Hahn <
sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

[snip]

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as
"Jakes<?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>."
It was quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression
of what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

...Reinhard <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>/Ron

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

diederik has a long i, but in didi it's short (thus dids)
don't confuse it with the cartoon figure Deedee;) (dexter's lab)

----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
[...]
> In Middle Saxon and North Frisian
> it does not necessarily express the feminine; e.g.
> MS
> *bedrygster*'deceiver', NF
> *grewster* 'grave-digger', *wäwster *'weaver'.]
[...]
> Reinhard/Ron

Ron,

Traces of '...ster' not necessarily expressing the
feminine are still to be found in the North of the
Netherlands.
E.g. a 'Damster' is someone of Appingedam; but someone
from elsewhere in the Netherlands will think it is
about a woman of Appingedam.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

From wim verdoold wkv at home.nl zwolle city netherrlands

Hi,  about an s ending in names

Looking at my own name (willem)

  In Germanic times it was written willhelmuZ in west Germanic and
willhelmuR in north Germanic,  the name HelmR and HelmZ also existed,  here
in the east of the Nethrlands there are still first names like Helms and
Mans , the s in names like that could come from the old germaic Z ending  in
Helms ( Helmus) it does.

Hope this added something to the subject.

Wim [Verdoold]

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]
Rein schreef:

As we all know, English has two frequently used suffixes *-s* (/-z/):

  1. Plural marker: e.g., The Walton*s* have two son*s* and three
  daughter*s*.
  2. Genitive marker: e.g., The Walton*s'* (/-z-z/) children*'**s *names
  are somewhat odd, owing to Mr. Walton*'s *obsession with Shakespear*'s
  *plays.

However, there appears to be a third, albeit lesser-used one.

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as "Jakes." It was
quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression of
what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

I don't know much about English or American, but a kind of affectional S
is used in Dutch, too.

E.g. my wife Barbara is called "Babs" as well. Mamma and Pappa are
also "Mams" and "Paps".
And I once mentioned here before the Brabantish S with proper names etc.:

ik gao naor Omas  < Oma      =  I go to grantma
da is veur Wilmas < Wilma    =  that is for Wilma
die komt van Tonnies< Tonnie =  he/she 's coming from Tonnie

Groeten
Ingmars

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks a lot, guys.

This is getting interesting. One of them golden Lowlands moments? (As though
not every moment on LL-L is a golden moment, huh?)

OK. I'm beginning to wonder if this is an piece of Dutch heritage in
American English.

Ingmar, you gave three examples

ik gao naor Omas  < Oma      =  I go to grantma
da is veur Wilmas < Wilma    =  that is for Wilma
die komt van Tonnies< Tonnie =  he/she 's coming from Tonnie

If it weren't for the second one (provided that it really means "for Wilma"
rather than "for Wilma's place/family"), this *-s* could have been seen as a
genitive marker, as in English:

I'm going to Grandma's. (= Grandma's place)
He/she's coming from Tony's. (= Tony's place)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/076e78a6/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 17:55:51 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:55:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.095551.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (06) [E]

In message
<57c981290711101738h4ccf2688xca488ec00ec52a22 at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> (i.e Ruth/Caterina) writes
> Neurologist is sending me for tests in January,
>but highly doubts I have anything other than really deformed feet!
>(Never
>thought that would be a good thing, but it obviously can be.)

Good news indeed - I have my fingers crossed for you!

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/45cd7f3b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 18:29:58 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:29:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.12 (03) [E/Hawaii Creole]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.102958.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.11 (08) [E/Hawaii Creole]

> Da Kahuna tu. Hi oreddi wen giv yu an inoa `a`ala. Go luk, eh!
> http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm

Tanks, brah!  trow party?! ... 'ole leo ... 'cauz get nomo say in da
matter? Or cauz rait so seldom. Fack is, me all waha ... get plenty
talk, jes' no ackshun.

Da Big Kahuna wen rait:
> Yu wen rait:
>> Go fo brok, brah! ...
> Ai wen trai fo ask yu no laik mek da trensleshen.

Yeah, I wen savvy da pragmatickz. NO pass on AN' NO pass back! Ke. No
like be one nochanic. So like madah always se: I might could chrai.

> Yu kan mo betta, no? So
> wot? Yu laik o wot? Chans um, eh!

Mo betta? No chrai ho'omalimali me, brah ...

> Yu no laik, ke, wotevaz.

Ke. maybe dis ma kuleana. (Chrai also mek da kine JSL an' ISL Wren.)

> Shuuts den, bra. Letaz.

Yeah, lataz!

** KEY for the F.O.B.s (fresh-off-the-boat) and malihinis (newcomers)
... present and future:
bra = brah = braddah = friend, chap, mate, fellow, ...
chans um = go fo brok = give it a go, do ones best, give it all you've got
chrai = trai - try
da kine = (a/some) kinda (extremel versatile, but also somewhat vague
expression in HCE, very common therefore HCE is also sometimes
referred to as Da Kine)
fack - NOT to be confused with fock!!!
ho'omalimali = flatter
ke = okay
kuleana = responsibilty / duty but ALSO privilege
nochanic = someone who is always saying/thinking "I cannot"
savvy = undwratnd (very common  in many of the world's pidgins and
creoles ... with Romance roots ... perhasp one of the contributions --
along with Portugues Sweet Bread -- of the many Portuguese immigrants
to hawaii)
shuuts den = yeah then
lataz = letaz = see you / talk to you later (HCE often has plurals
where standard ENglish has singular ... though I DOUBT that this -s is
the source of the affectionate diminutive discussed in anothe htread
of this ML!)
trow party? = an enquiry as to whether there will be celebrations, but
ALSO a potentially sarcastic reply of indiference (approximating
American English "big whoop!")
waha = lazy, all talk and no action
wot = what; o wot = or don't you; or isn't it, etc (common HCE tag question)
wotevaz = watevahs = whatever, it doesn't matter,m I don't care (see
shuuts den for the use of HCE plurals)

--
MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )

++++++++++++++++

茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

An den?

Kē den, brā. Chōk mahaloz.

Mo betta? No chrai ho'omalimali me, brah ...

Wot? Mī?! Aznats!

Yū wen rait:

Da Big Kahuna wen rait:

Yū wen skrū ap egen. *Ai* wen rait dat, brā!

Lētaz!

Reinhard/Ron

An den?: (< and then?) Hi! How are things?
Aznats!: (< as nuts) Crazy! No way!
chōk: (< choke) loads of
mahaloz: (< Haw. *mahalo*) thanks
skrū ap: (< screw up) make a mistake
wen: (< went) past tense marker
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/5b45d095/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 18:37:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:37:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.12 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.103708.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.11 (05) [E/LS/Danish/German]

Leve Lowlanders,

I think I also have to make a contribution to this little discussion because
my mother's family is one of those families which remained loyal to Denmark
although they always lived in Holsten just south of Rendsborg. Ethnically
they didn't feel Danish but they neither felt German and that was what many
people actually felt, at least in this part of Holsten and after Prussia
simply made Holsten a Prussian province they realized that Prussian rule
might be even more intolerant than Danish rule and as such became a part of
the Danish minority. As a matter of fact, U. Lornsen's call for an uprise
against Danish rule was less a call for having Prussian-German rule instead
but much more a call for greater autonomy if not even independence of the
Dutchies of Slesvig and Holsten and that was what many people actually
supported. My great-great grandfather apparrantly hung a big banner over the
main road which passes through Brinjah (at the Ossenweg) which made a parody
of a Prussian song which read then "red-White-Black a my colours - I must be
a Prussian!" instead of "I want to be a Prussian". And I can only guess that
many, if not most locals supported this view, otherwise I don't think my
great-great-grandfather had made his opinion as public as that. How much
Danish the citizens in  the area south of Rendsborg actually felt is also
demonstrated by the Danish badges over several old houses in Hohenwestedt,
notably the church with a badge to Christian VII king of Denmark. The old
church-administration house has a badge to the honour of Frederik VI which
was was never removed, in fact it was neatly  renovated with the whole
building in the 1980s! In my opinion you simply cannot really divide into
Danish and German, neither in most parts of Sleswig-Holsten, nor in what is
now Danish Soenderjylland. Initially most people felt first of all as
Holsteners, Slesvigers, Dithmarscher, Frisians,...(you name it) and then as
Sleswig-Holsteners and finally as subjects to the Danish king. But suddenly
in the 19th century they were forced to decide whether they were Danish or
German which was an alien concept to them, some decided for Germany, others
for Denmark. Some people in Soenderjylland can clearly trace their family
back to traders from as far south as Westphalia, some families in Holsten,
in particular along the Ossenweg to herders from northern Jutland which
still might not make them necessarily feel German or Danish. Some traders in
the Duchy of Slesvig  were invited by the Danish king and as such always
remained loyal to Denmark although ethnically they were Saxons from
Westphalia or Hollanders.

The Sleswig-Holsten uprising was actually much more inspired by similar
events in Norway, Iceland and the Faroes and were calls for more democracy
and autonomy, less by events further south in what was to become Germany.
But they coincided and that changed the course of events dramatically with
mighty Prussia eventually swallowing the whole lot. To this day I find
enough people south of Rendsborg who feel themselves Danish although
ethnically they should be considered Saxon, the vote for SSW south of
Rendsborg is up 6-7% in some municipalities as e.g Nienborstel, my old
family home. Subsequently, anyone can become a part of the Danish minority
as anyone can become a part of the German minority in Soenderjylland because
ethnicallty you cannot really seperate the people. It is more a question of
loyality than of ethnicity. I find the idea of "German" anyway very
questionable and ambitious, northern Germany was once Saxon, an ethnical
independend group with its own language, royal dynasties and traditions
which became colonized from further south (Hohenzollern) and the Saxons in
Holsten were lucky enough to have had an alternative they could choose
before becoming "Germanized" (which is a silly term because the Danes are of
Germanic origin, too). I think the whole point of promoting Plattduetsch,
Low Saxon, Nedersaksisch or whatever you call it is also a case for
promoting the idea that the Saxons were an ethnical indifferent group,
different from German, Dutch or Danish (and taking in respect that some Low
Saxon speakers still live in Poland and Lithuania those are of course to be
included). But I don't want to make this a political question, too much
blood has been wasted by pointless ethnical conflicts, it is a cultural
question and nothing more. Nationalism is very dangerous, it is too often
exclusive and discriminating, even racist, a cultural movement is an open
house and that is what I have in mind and the bilingual place-names are a
little step towards this. I don't know anymore who said it but a famous
writer once declared that it is impossible to assume anyone's nationality
wherever, you have to ask the person him/herself to find out what they are
and Slesvig-Holsten (including Soenderjylland) proves the point of this to
this day.

The question whether Sleswig-Holsten is a part of Jutland or not is also
prove how ridiculous nationalism can be, if I study a European map it seems
obvious that a peninsula is taking shape about north-west of the bay of
Luebeck which is commonly called Jutland, what else do you want to call it
then? The peninsula is diveded by a national border, like Europe was divided
by the Iron curtain but it is a mistake to attach ethnicity to a
geographical term (although geographical terms often derive from ethnic
terms, such as Dumfries=the castles of Frisians, actually in Scotland). The
Iron Curtain didn't make Europe suddenly split into Europe and the rest? And
not all British are of Celtic origin as "British" would initially suggest!
It is about as silly as the Chinese government recently declared any Tibetan
loyal to the Dalai Lama (and as such a dangerous nationalist and terrorist)
who is not wearing imported Tiger-fur because the Dalai-Lama called on the
Tibetans to stop wearing them in order to stop trade of the fur and save the
last Tigers from extinction.

Groeten vun

Helge

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/e2f5f7df/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 18:39:46 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:39:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.103946.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>* *
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> This made me think about -s (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
> endearment."
>
> Question 1: Is it confined to American English?
>
> Unless I'm sorely mistaken, you hear this used mostly with women's
> names, though I hear it used with men's names as well. This makes me
> wonder ...
>
> Question 2: Is there a connotation of "cutesy" in it?

You may have noticed that I recently referred to Alexander Montgomery
(of "The Cherie and the Slae" fame) as "Sanders Montgomery". As well I
refer to him as "Sandy Montgomerie", but this is just me (I think).

In Scots, both "Sanders" and "Sandy" are short for "Alexander", and I've
often been called "Sanders" by Scots speakers, though only those of
close acquaintance (This is just an observation. Personally, I don't
mind either way). I don't think I've come across the form "Sander",
though. Why would the "s" be added at the end, since it doesn't occur in
"Alexander"?

King James VI, in one of his juvenile poems, actually refers to
Montgomerie in this way:

   Gif patient eire to something I maun say,
   Belovit Sandirs, maister of oure airt:
   [...]

maun: must

So the form "Sanders" is centuries old, but whether there's any
relationship to the modern usage, I have no idea.

I can't think of any other names that would be treated this way in
Scots.

Sanders
http://scotstext.org/

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/e29bfb19/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 23:31:04 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:31:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.153104.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

Dear Lowlanders:

Ron wrote: "This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker
of endearment."

This got me thinking about an affectionate nickname my great-grandmother
bestowed upon me. When I was a child she frequently called me "Dannikins,"
derived from Daniel, which is my middle name. My great-grandmother grew up
speaking a form of Wisconsin German. I interpret the morphology of the name
as being "Dan" plus "i/y"or "ik" or "ek" (diminutives) plus "kin"
(diminutive) plus the suffix "-s."

I also sense that it seems awkward with non-abbreviated names. My wife and I
(both Alaska born) get around this by adding an "-er (strongly rhotacized)
to my son's name. Thus, Max is frequently is called "Maxers" or even
"Maskers" within the family. The same suffix applies to my daughter's two
syllable name: Ivy is often called "Ivers."

Be well,

John Howland

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/a7b84492/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 23:34:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:34:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.12 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.153400.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (06) [E]

From: "Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: CMT Syndrome

Dear All,

Nearly hot off the press: Neurologist is sending me for tests in January,
but highly doubts I have anything other than really deformed feet! (Never
thought that would be a good thing, but it obviously can be.) Says if I've
had the foot problem for years I would have other symptoms, too. Very
relieved and thankful for your support...

Ruth/ Caterina

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Members' news

Thanks a lot, Ruth! I was thinking of you ever since Mark gave us the news.

This is great, at least as far as an interim report is concerned. Keep that
up!

In the meantime, take lots of foot baths, then have Mark massage your poor,
little footsie, and you'll be good for hitting the dance floor and knocking
'em dead as usual, you belle of the ball, you.

Love and best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron

Dear Ron,

I'm not about to reply to such an X-rated email in public, but you can
expect a private post anon concerning footsies, belles, balls _and_ dancing.
Just wait.

No, seriously, thank you for your and everyone's good wishes. I think I'm
basically back to where I was before I saw the foot specialist- knowing that
something has to be done, but instead of being stressed being happy it's
just my feet! Reminds me of the story of too many animals in the house.

Love Ruth

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/04979fa3/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 04:43:12 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:43:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.204312.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (01) [E]

I'm not convinced this –s is an American thing. Don't the British refer to
Prince William as Wills? I've never heard anyone in the US call a William
"Wills". I am familiar with Babs and Pops, though.

There's also the –sy ending, as in Patsy (for Patricia) or Bugsy (I've never
been sure where "Bugsy" comes from though).

Also, Ron, I wouldn't necessarily call the –ster or –meister endings
"derisive".  They can also be affectionate.

There was a skit on Saturday Night Live featuring a recurring character who
referred to everybody in the office by adding various endings to their
names. It wasn't derisive, but the character was supposed to be annoying
because he was getting overly familiar with everyone. Someone would walk in,
and he'd greet them with something like, "It's Dave! Dave-meister! [pause]
The Davester! [pause] Coming to use the copier! [longer pause]
Dave-o-rama!..."

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (06) [E]

Ron wrote: "This made me think about -s (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

I think you're right and it is a way in which a name can be softened and
made more appealing. Certainly my mother called my sister Margaret "Babs"
whenever the mood was good or better - so not just a shortened version of
Barbara! 'Mags' is what my other sister tends to say in similar 'fond'
moments.

It is certainly gentler than the universal --zza that one meets nowadays

Shazza << Sharon

Gazza << Gary

Mazza (Martin? Matthew? even MIchael?) , Lazza ( Larry? any name beginning
with L? ) etc often shortened to Shaz / Gazz/ Mazz/ Lazz etc

Note that the names do not need a medial s/z to change

I must admit to finding the latter fairly grating because ugly-sounding.
Whereas the -s suffix sounds 'sweet'!

Not that it suits all names, eh Rons?

Ronnie it has to be!

best wishes from

Hezza ( how the French pronounce my name)

H ( pronounced 'aitch')

Rendall

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks, Kevs and ... Hea ... Heath... er ...

Indeed, Kevin. This *-s* must go back to British English. Heather's examples
above show that, as does your Wills.

(William Shakespeare called himself Will and seemed to have preferred others
calling him that. I wonder if he was already called Wills by friends and
relatives. I searched in records about his life and wills, and in all the
stuff Garry Wills wrote about Will. But ... zilch so far.)

I think that the *-sy* ending pay be proof. I assume it's this *-s* with an
added diminutive *-y* (~ *-ie*), such as in (mum >) "mumsy," (Patricia >)
"Patsy" and (Elizabeth >) "Betsy." This seems distinctly feminine to me. I
don't think I would consider calling a Patrick "Patsy" ... unless, of
course, he was a patsy.

Also, Ron, I wouldn't necessarily call the –ster or –meister endings
"derisive".  They can also be affectionate.

Oh, I agree. That's why I referred to it as "derisive affection marker." But
that doesn't sound to great. How do you make "affectionately teasing" sound
like a scientific term?

Hezza, Babs from Margaret? You kiddin' me? Are you sure this happened
outside your family as well?

Oh, and Kevin, that guy from Saturday Night Live is one of my characters at
work. ("The Chuckster making copies for the Lisa-rama!") He comes out when I
want to be more obnoxious than usual. Aren't you glad you don't have to
endure me in person, bradda?

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/7ca6e368/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 04:45:14 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:45:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.12 (09) [Hawaii Creole]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.204514.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 09
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.12 (03) [E/Hawaii Creole]

>  Yū wen rait:
> Da Big Kahuna wen rait:
> Yū wen skrū ap egen. Ai wen rait dat , brā !

Sorris, brah, no get all huhu. Get majorly faced ... agen!  Ai so
donchey, 'ass why. Jas tink him look skosh laik yu, la'dat. An' vice
versa. Da fam'ly rezemblanz maybe ... laik maybe calabalsh cuzinz? I
go spahk da pichaz hana hou ... leita, tumaro, bumbye; maybe  no mek A
nex' taim.

K-dens, pau fo now! Lataz ... Hawaiian time!


MWM

glossary:
'ass why = that is why
bumbye = later ... though never is also a possibility
calabash cuzinz = people who are not actual relatives but might as
well be (laik maybe ste friends from hanabata dayz!)
donchey = absent minded, spaced-out
get 8all) huhu = get mad
get faced = get proved wrong; get majorly faced = get proven wrong in a big
way
hana hou [from hawaiian] = one more time
Hawaaian time = same general idea as Asian time ... but maybe slower
K-dens = okay, then
la'dat = (or soemthing) like that
make A = embarrass oneself
pau = finished
skosh [from Japanese: 少し sukoshi] = a little bit
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/7239d72b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 16:18:39 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:18:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.NOV.2007.081839.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  13 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (08) [E]

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net >
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (01) [E]

I'm not convinced this –s is an American thing. Don't the British refer to
Prince William as Wills? I've never heard anyone in the US call a William
"Wills". I am familiar with Babs and Pops, though.

And of course football (soccer to Americans) star David Beckham is usually
"Becks" to the media. The "-s" form is pretty common in England at least,
though there seems to be no rule as to how or when it seems "right". Soccer
star Wayne Rooney is "Roo", not "Roons" or "Waynes" for example.  I suppose
somebody just uses a form, and it sticks, or it doesn't.

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (08) [E]

Ron asked: Hezza, Babs from Margaret? You kiddin' me? Are you sure this
happened outside your family as well?

Well 'Polly' is always explained as a diminutive of Mary ( from Molly?) and
Peggy is also an affectionate / diminutive of Margaret. If you can get Betsy
from Elizabeth, I don't see why Margaret can't give you Babs.

Are we seeing connections here between M/P/B?  ... though this still leaves
Betsy unexplained.

I wonder whether the -ie/y came first as a diminutive  Susan > Susie
Ronald> Ronnie   Richard > Ritchie  Michael > Micky  Paul> Paulie   etc etc
- even Mummy> Mumsie - though thanks to Noel Streatfeild (sic) 's The Bell
Family of the 1950s , I cringe when I hear this and see it as the height of
affectation!

The -s is really intriguing because it works with some names and not with
others - at least to my ears.

Babs / Suz / Wills/ Mags sound OK to me

But Dicks / Pauls/ Anns/ Vals/ Johns/ Rons   just don't work

Dickie  Paulie  Annie  (Val is already an abbreviation) Johnnie /
Johnny/Jonny & Ronnie all do. But then so do Susie, Annie, Willy/Willie
Maggie/Maggy

What do other people think?

best wishes

Heather

(Rendall)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Heather, you wrote above:

Well 'Polly' is always explained as a diminutive of Mary ( from Molly?) and
Peggy is also an affectionate / diminutive of Margaret.

Hmm ... Good point. That *is* pretty weird, isn't it? Perhaps I should
encourage people to be even more inventive with my names ... as long as they
are nice of course.

And isn't there also something about John being Jack, as in John F. Kennedy?

And Dick from Richard is strange, possibly based on toddlers'
mispronunciation (Rick > Dick).

And in Spanish you get cases like Dolores > Lola > Lolita, Eduardo > Lalo >
Lalito, Francisca > Paca > Paquita, Francisco > Paco > Paquito, Ignacio >
Nacho > Nachito. Dutch has cases like Willem > Pim, Jacob > Coos (the -s
again!), Cornelius > Kees (again!), Gertruida > Truus (again! plus pre-shift
long vowel!), Wald... > Woud... ~ Wout...  > Wob > Wobbe.

Well, there's no telling with people and names. My father addressed pretty
much all men whose names he forgot with "Kuddel" (from Kurt, I believe). It
used to embarrass us kids no end.

If you can get Betsy from Elizabeth, I don't see why Margaret can't give you
Babs.

Now, that one I can relate to: Elizabeth > Beth > (*Bethsy >) Betsy (apart
from Betty and Liz > Lizzy). Wasn't the great Gloriana herself, Elizabeth I,
called Beth or Bet?

Some names get stretched pretty far. Well known in Low Saxon is Fiete from
Friedrich, originally Frederik which often became Fredi, as in the case of
two of my uncles. So, after Germanization, an official Friedrich (who became
Fritz in German) could still be addressed as Fredi (['fre:di]) in the North.
Similarly, someone officially named Heinrich could still be called Hinnerk
(from Low Saxon Hinrik, Hinrick, etc.). And, as I mentioned before, Karl
could be addressed as Kalla or Kaller.

Babs / Suz / Wills/ Mags sound OK to me

But Dicks / Pauls/ Anns/ Vals/ Johns/ Rons   just don't work

Dickie  Paulie  Annie  (Val is already an abbreviation) Johnnie /
Johnny/Jonny & Ronnie all do. But then so do Susie, Annie, Willy/Willie
Maggie/Maggy

I wonder if the general rule, apart from certain phonological restrictions,
is that -s is not to be added to full names.  The twist may well be that
certain abbreviated names came to be perceived as full names, such as Dick,
Ron, Don and Val. There are now many names that started as abbreviated
version and are now considered as (possible) full names, such as Barbra,
Barry, Betty, Bindy, Candy, Carrie, Dora, Jake, Sandra and Sandy.

I am still intrigued by use of the said -s in both English and Dutch. I
wonder if there is any connection and what that might be.

Any idea anyone?

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071113/f4a1f869/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 17:09:13 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:09:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.NOV.2007.090913.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  13 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: marshatrue at peoplepc.com
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

Ron, I suspect this "marker of endearment" stems from the nursery rhyme
"Itsy-Bitsy Spider" which mothers have been extending to their babies names
for eons (which came first, the baby-talk or the rhyme?).  It can have a
sarcastic connotation of cutsey, as in referring to a couple of people one
doesn't like as being "palsy-walsy" with each other but in general here in
the U.S. it's genuinely affectionate grown-up baby-talk to call Phoebe
"Phoebes."  The rest of the cast on "Friends" wouldn't have been caught dead
saying "Phoebey-Woebsey," but Phoebes is an acceptably adult variant.
You're right that it only works with some names, those which can be
abbreviated easily.  My name, Marsha, doesn't fit that mold, no matter how I
work it.  Yours does, however.....I can imagine a woman cooing "Rons" to
you.....but that gets into another subject entirely!

Marsha
/enjoying the conversation from the shadows of American pop culture

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Dear Lowlanders,

I'd be grateful to you for some input regarding the following topic.

As we all know, English has two frequently used suffixes *-s* (/-z/):

   1. Plural marker: e.g., The Walton* s* have two son*s* and three
   daughter*s*.
   2. Genitive marker: e.g., The Walton*s'* (/-z-z/) children*'**s *names
   are somewhat odd, owing to Mr. Walton*'s *obsession with Shakespear*'s
   *plays.

However, there appears to be a third, albeit lesser-used one.

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as "Jakes." It was
quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression of
what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

*Question 1*: Is it confined to American English?

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, you hear this used mostly with women's names,
though I hear it used with men's names as well. This makes me wonder ...

*Question 2*: Is there a connotation of "cutesy" in it?
 <snip>

*Question 4*: What might the origin of this suffix be?

------------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi, Marsha dearest!

What a treat seeing you venturing forth from the depth of Oregon's woods to
grace us with your illustrious presence ... and that just seconds after I
sent off the previous Morphology installment!

I have a hunch that the "Itsy-Bitsy Spider" was not the trend-setter, that
the -s device was already in place. Or? Well, people still say "itsy" and
"bitsy" or the combo in other contexts.

but Phoebes is an acceptably adult variant.

You are certainly right there. I think that Lisa Kudrow did a fine job in
her delivery and development of this off-beat character, a modern West Coast
offshoot of the Ashkenazi Vaudeville-derived tradition that has is the main
ancestor of the only American sitcoms worth watching in my opinion. (Jason
Alexander, Bea Arthur, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Debra Messing, Jerry Seinfeld,
Ben Stiller and Jerry Stiller are other such examples in the sitcom world).

I can imagine a woman cooing "Rons" to you.....but that gets into another
subject entirely!

Oh, you mean with a "Rrrrr..." and then a "...zzzz" like from Eartha Kitt?
Well, yes, that's an entirely different topic.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071113/ec0ae5c6/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 18:35:52 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:35:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.NOV.2007.103552.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  13 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk < heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (02) [E]

Ron or Ronnie or ( dare I say it) Ronsey-Wonsey started us off on the odd
use of -s in names



I have used the article below in training Foreign language Assistants for
years. It originally appeared in either the Times or the Telegraph and makes
me crease up every time I read it. I hope the List enjoys it too.

(c) MIles Kington ( who is a well known comic writer )

**

*Miles Kington      *

*A singular Curiosity of English*



As people leaving school have such a shaky grasp of English, I am starting
an occasional series on English Grammar. I would like to kick off with one
of the commonest grammatical dicta in English: that you form the plural of a
noun by adding's'.



Nothing could be further than the truth! In English any letter can be used
to form the plural. In fact 's' is more commonly used to form the *singular*.




Look at my opening paragraph. There are two words in the plural – *people*and
*dicta* and neither ends in 's'. There is one noun ending in 's' –
*series*; and it is singular.



And yet our children are taught that the plural is formed with 's'! A quick
tour of the alphabet will tell a different story.



*A** *  a plural formed by 'a' is normally literary or commercial e.g.
curricula, data, incunabula, media, strata.

* *

*B*   A plural mostly used in fish as in "The chubb are not biting today"
But the plural of 'yob' is 'mob', a rare example of the first letter
changing.



*C*   The plural of "A man waiting to be separated from his money" is
'public'



*D*   The plural of 'blind' is 'blind'. "In the country of the blind, the
one eyed man is king" The plural of John Pilger, Harold Pinter or John
Mortimer end in 'd' – "We, the undersigned…."  The plural of 'churchmen' is
'synod' and of 'director' is 'board'

* *

*E*   The plural of 'cow' is 'cattle'.Committee, league, electorate all end
in 'e'.



*F*   "In the land of the deaf, the one-eared man is king"

* *

*G*   Everyone ends in 'g' according to a lawyer, as in "the foregoing"….
Unless they end in 'd' – "the aforementioned"



*H*   The plural of 'clergyman' is 'church' and of 'magistrate' 'bench'



*I*   Almost every plural in classical music ends in 'I', such as 'concerti'
'tutti' 'soli' 'celli'. The plural of 'critic' is 'castrati'. The plural of
'listener' is 'hoi polloi'

* *

*J*   This letter is used as a plural ending for foreigners in vast
quantity. In India a'raj', in Arabia a 'haj' etc



*K*   As you might expect, no plurals of cow end in 's' e.g. cattle, kine,
herd and, in 'k' bloodstock. Jesus often formed his plural in 'k' "The meek
shall inherit the earth" see also 'sick'

*
*

*L*    British Rail are a shining example of a plural in 'l'. It used to be
British Railways, but they saw the error of their ways and dropped the 's'
ending  cf British Telecom



*M*   Seraphim and Cherubim provide more Biblical backing here.



*N*   Perhaps the oldest and nicest plural in English, as in men, women,
oxen, brethren and Opposition.



*O*   There is only one plural in 'o' On the other hand it is all-inclusive
'ditto'



*P*   The plural of 'pop singer' is 'group'



*Q*   All right! I can't find a plural ending in 'q' – but then I can't find
a singular either.



*R*   The plural of 'socialist' is 'Labour'

* *

*T*   A very popular political plural ending 't'. The plural of 'commissar'
is 'commissariat', of 'secretary' 'secretariat' etc Also 'government'
'Cabinet' 'management'

* *

*U*   Every Welsh plural seems to end in 'u', certainly none in 's'. Good
for them. Also the plural of 'gnu' is not 'gnus', as you might be led to
believe but 'gnu'. This is to avoid jokes like "No gnus are good gnus"



*V*   The plural of  cross-reference is 'qqv'

* *

*W*   'Few' is the small plural of 'one'



*X** *  A popular plural for many a county-dweller, as in Middlesex, Sussex,
Wessex, Essex. So we say " Essex are champions again" not "Essex is champion
again"



*Y*   Ditto for the country-dweller. The plural of German is 'Germany' and
so on. The plural of 'song' , oddly, is 'medley' if pop and 'lieder' if
classical.

* *

*Z** *  The plural of ounce is 'oz'



It only remains to stress that 's' is a singular ending in 'trousers'
'scissors' 'pants' 'jeans'. A 'spectacle' is all you can see, but
'spectacles' are one small thing on your nose.

Having an 's' on the end is such a sign of the singular that it debars many
a word from even having a plural – 'quietus' 'nous' 'chaos' 'hiatus'.



As a final clincher, look at any English verb. "He works" "They work" Which
is plural? Which has the's' ending?



Brilliant!

Have fun

Heather
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071113/50f0e270/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 14 15:07:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:07:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.NOV.2007.070748.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (06) [E]

 Beste John (Howland),

you wrote:

> This got me thinking about an affectionate nickname my great-grandmother
bestowed upon me. When I was a child she frequently called
> me "Dannikins," derived from Daniel, which is my middle name.
I guess this to be a kind of 'double diminutive': the *_-kin_* probably is
derived from Western Germanic '-ken' (related to German '-chen'), like in
the famous Belgian 'Manneken Pis'= 'peeing little man', and additional the
formerly discussed '-s'.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071114/67e4a13e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 14 19:58:54 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:58:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.NOV.2007.115854.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 012
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (01) [E]

jonny meibohm wrote:

John (Howland) wrote:

> This got me thinking about an affectionate nickname my great-grandmother
bestowed upon me. When I was a child she frequently called
> me "Dannikins," derived from Daniel, which is my middle name.
I guess this to be a kind of 'double diminutive': the *_-kin_* probably is
derived from Western Germanic '-ken' (related to German '-chen'), like in
the famous Belgian 'Manneken Pis'= 'peeing little man', and additional the
formerly discussed '-s'.

In the Hamaland Low Saxon of my hometown Winterswyk (NL) it's also:
menneken <= diminutive of man, hündeken <= dim. of hund (dog), etc.

But I suspect that in "Dannikins" it may rather be a diminutive of Dani,
not of Dan.

Ingmar

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
Subject: Morphology

Dutch has cases like Willem > Pim, Jacob > Coos (the -s
again!), Cornelius > Kees (again!), Gertruida > Truus (again! plus pre-
shift long vowel!), Wald... > Woud... ~ Wout...  > Wob > Wobbe.

Hi Ron,
I think Dutch Coos/Koos [ko:s] is from Kobus/Cobus ["ko:b at s] from Jacobus
[ja"ko:b at s], rather than from Jacob ["ja:kOp]; and Kees [ke:s] from Knelis
["kne:l at s] from Cornelis [kOr"ne:l at s].
As are Dieks from Drikus from Henricus, Teus from Theunis from Anthonius,
Thijs from Matthijs from Mattheüs, Bertus from Albertus, Jans from Jannes
from Johannes etc. So in those cases, final -s/-is/-es/-us (the latter
three all pronounced alike, with schwa) is from the Latin or Latin-like
official first name. Maybe a female name like Geertruida was "Latinized"
falsely as "Gertrudis" [GEr"tryd at s], hence Truus [trys].

Ingmar

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (01) [E]

Re: "s" after a name. I need to hear from people from (Dutch) Brabant or
Limburg. Somewhere in the far back lacunae of my mind I hear somebody from
that area say: "Ons Moeders". If that is true, might this be a case-ending?
Jacqueline
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071114/8e99d646/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 15 00:23:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:23:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.NOV.2007.162308.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]

 I'm not convinced this –s is an American thing. Don't the British refer to
Prince William as Wills? I've never heard anyone in the US call a William
"Wills".

With certain nicknames and pet names, the s is common in the US. For the
longest time of my childhood, my third cousin, who was known as Aunt Gail,
would call me Binners. It sounds weird to write it that way now, but that's
exactly how she said it. The [E]/[I] (X-Sampa) are just because she says the
lax E that way with everybody. The phrase ten tins is homophonous to her.
Anyway, she would ALWAYS call me Binners from Benners. I can't explain the
-er either unless it's another sort of diminutivizing morpheme or someting.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks, Ben, Binners, Binster, Binnerama!

Hey, how about this for a highfaluting technical term for this particular
morpheme -s: "cutesificator", the act of using it being "cutesification"?

The verb "cutesify" has the main stress on the first syllable,
"cutesification" on the fourth, and "cutesificator" on the the second.
Everyone like? Should be sent straight to the *OED* people.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071114/9fd3415e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 15 18:22:23 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:22:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.102223.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]

thought Elizabeth I was affectionately referred to as Bess. The British Long
Land Pattern musket was commonly referred to as Brown Bess (one theory is
that this was derived from the German phrase 'braun buss' meaning 'brown
gun').

And if you think English names get stretched when diminutivized, until they
are nearly unrecognizable, just look at what Russians do.  They even make
diminutives of the dimunitives! Aleksandr>Aleksasha>Sasha>Sashka>Sashen'ka
or Aleksandr>Alekshura> Shura>Shurka>Shuren'ka.

Kevin "Don't you dare call me Kevs" Caldwell
----------

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (03) [E]

Hi Ron,

Why not cutify / cutification / cutificator rather than
cutesify/cutesification/cutesificator?
The longer and more complex a lexical string is, the less it is going to be
used.

Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser

>The verb "cutesify" has the main stress on the first syllable,
"cutesification" on the fourth, and "cutesificator" on the the second.
Everyone like? Should be sent straight to the *OED* people.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Kevin, I think you're right about Bessy. It's interesting, too: supposedly
Beth > Beths > Bess > Bessy.

Else, I was just kidding about those terms. Sorry I didn't make that
clearer.

Seriously, though, if there isn't a fancy-shmancy term for "endearing" in
linguistics (and I'm not aware of any), I would suggest something like
"affectative" with subcategories like "diminutive affectative" (or
"affectative diminutive"), "jocular affectative."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/96cfedc1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 15 18:24:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:24:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.15 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.102455.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ted <tedshore at sympatico.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (06) [D/E]

It would be wonderful to get an english translation of this response re:
Shore/Schore/Sjhorre.
 Thanks,

Ted *[Shore]*

Lowlands-L List wrote:

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

 Beste allen,
Zo'n klip, een "onderzeewaterrots", noemen wij te Oostende: e blénde sjhêr.
Een arduinen tegelvloer is in het West-Vlaams: e sjhorre.
De bloem uit het Zwin (oude zeeboezem die vroeger van Brugge tot bij Knokke
liep) heet lamsoor; in ons dialect heet die bloem "sjhorreblomme" of
"zwieneblomme".
Het Nederlands schoor is ook een steunbalk, in ons dialect "sjhoerienge".
Doet mij hieraan denken: schouders (shoulders) steunen toch ook; daar zou
wel eens een verband met "schoren kunnen zijn. Schouders zijn bij ons
trouwens: sjhoeres!
Toetnoasteki,
 Roland Desnerck
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/a9d2815d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 15 18:28:43 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:28:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.102843.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use"

Dear Lowlanners,

yesterday evening I experienced a proof for the fact how important and
helpful it can be to speak a regional dialect- in this case *my* Low Saxon.

Late afternoon I went into my hunting district to look for some wild geese
for Christmas, accompanied of course by my dog. Due to the fact that she is
a young and not yet well trained 'Uutbund' ('*Outbounder*'; paragon??) she
got lost in the dark, chivying any hare or roe deer.

I drove around with my car for a good hour without finding any track. At
last I saw lights of an automobile near the dike, at the end of my district.
I stopped right after this vehicle and saw a shepherd looking into his
corral where he had fenced in his sheep.
He came towards me at once and asked me in an aggressive voice if I did miss
any hunting dog. I answered in an affirmative- instinctively using Low
Saxon.
The good man showed me any black 'pack' sitting trembling in the edge, right
within the electric fence- my missed dog which was unable to jump over the
fence in the dark. I fear it was a bad but perhaps educative torture for
it...
The stockman still was a bit upset, because he feared for the integrity of
his sheep, but impressed by my native tongue he calmed down and even helped
me to lift the poor thing over the fence.

Though obviously born in the region he didn't speak LS himself, but I guess
that if I had talked to him in Standard German the situation could have
escalated. So my native tongue showed him that I was one of *"us"* and
not one of those people we call *"Stadtfrack"* (literally: 'city
swallowtail', perhaps to translate as 'green wellie')- that ones without any
knowledge about rural matters.

What at the end became a friendly conversation about hunting, sheep and dogs
otherwise could have turned into any bad animosity.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/8e4cb4cd/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 01:14:36 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:14:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.171436.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology"

Beste Ron(neman) *s*,

You wrote:
> Seriously, though, if there isn't a fancy-shmancy term for "endearing"
> in linguistics (and I'm not aware of any), I would suggest something
> like "affectative" with subcategories like "diminutive affectative"
> (or "affectative diminutive"), "jocular affectative."

In Dutch, we call this a "koosnaam(pje)" or "troetelnaam".

Why not a "pet name"?

The term "petting" itself may not be appropriate though I guess :-D ...

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

------------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]

 Dear Kevin,

you wrote:

The British Long Land Pattern musket was commonly referred to as Brown Bess
(one theory is that this was derived from the German phrase 'braun buss'
meaning 'brown gun').

I guess your information is from the English wikipedia- but I fear that's
wrong. There are, for my knowledge, no German phrases like 'braun buss' or
'brawn buss'- the only correct German word here just is 'braun'. Perhaps the
authors of that article mixed it up with the famous 'Browning'-guns, which
indeeed are very famous in Germany.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

------------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Salew, Lewkster!

> In Dutch, we call this a "koosnaam(pje)" or "troetelnaam".

It's *Kosename *in German. I can't think of a Low Saxon equivalent. Anyone?

> Why not a "pet name"?

That's not "fancy-shmancy" linguistic, is it? It's supposed to sound
"educated" so ordinary people don't know what mundane thing you're talking
about.  ;-)

> Beste Ron(neman) *s*,

That's kind of nice in that it sounds rather familiar, something we would
say in Northern Germany. We used to call and sometimes still do call my
(much younger) brother (Michael ['miCa?El]) "Michimann" (['miCiman]). You
could add this "-mann" to shortened forms of most men's names if you feel so
inclined (Fietemann, Kallermann, Hansemann,  Fredimann, Nikomann, Paulemann,
Franzmann,* Wallimann, Rolimann, Lukemann, etc.).

Now you just need to add the said "s" (Ronnemans) and it sounds like a Dutch
or Belgian surname.

In actual fact, I just did a quick search and found Ronnemans as a Dutch
surname as well as a pet name!

Groetjes,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/ea59b039/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 01:16:03 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:16:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.171603.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (03) [E]

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use"

Dear Lowlanners,

yesterday evening I experienced a proof for the fact how important and
helpful it can be to speak a regional dialect- in this case *my* Low Saxon.

.......

What at the end became a friendly conversation about hunting, sheep and dogs
otherwise could have turned into any bad animosity.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

*And we thought we had a North-South divide in England!  Having been
carefully studying German, I'll obviously have to give the North a miss!

Paul Finlow-Bates

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/c74a303d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 17:30:15 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:30:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.093015.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (03) [E]

Hoi alltouhoop,

Thank you for a lovely story Jonny!
In a way it reminds me of the story of my first visit to a rural post office
in Quebec Province, Canada:

My truckdriver friend, a Mennonite Plautsnakker, warned me that the rural
'Québécoise' will refuse to speak to us in English. So we decided
beforehand to talk to each other in Afrikaans and in Plautdietsch in case
this should happen.

Well, the good old lady greeted us in French, asked where we were from and
grumbled about the rain ruining her raspberries. I asked her for stamps and
she went on refusing to understand me. So then we started talking in our
mother tongues. And she understood the dilemma and said
in good English, 'Oh, you don't speak French?' and sold me a few stamps.

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (05) [E]

Dear Paul,

I have to admit, I don't really understand your comment there at the end of
Jonny's little ancdote. Do you refer to hunting, sheep and dogs? I am myself
a strict vegetarian but I am fully aware that this is something I can afford
these days because of food imports which haven't been there before. My
forefathers 100 years ago had to utilize everything carefully which their
little farm offered in order to survive, and that, of course,  included
slaughtering animals. But they did this carefully, not wastefully, like it
is done today! I remember headlines from London-based newspapers about
blood-thirsty Faroe-Islanders because they hunt about 2000 pilot-whales per
year. They have hunted them for hundreds of years in the same number and
pilot-whales do not belong to the threatened species, the little
Faroe-population is not responsible for the possible extinction of whales!
If then, it is general over-fishing in the Norfth Atlantic and there you can
actually include the Faroes among all others, e.g. the UK. And bloodthirsty?
What did the same authors think is going on in Britain's slaughterhouses?
What makes whales more precious than cows and and pigs? At least, the Faroes
kill them in the open, that is more honest and everyone can see what is
going on, it is not hidden behind the walls of a slaughterhouse. If Jonny
tells us a story about hunting, sheep and dogs, that is perefctly alright
and authentic to me, I trust Jonny that he is not doing it excessively! And
I also experience the same that speaking the local dialect helps acceptence
from the locals and why not? A Londoner would expect that a person who comes
to live in his town learns the English language in a way that he/she
understands it, what is normal and perfectly alright for a Londoner is then
suddenly chauvinism if the same demands come from a Low Saxon or, let's say
a Geordie or Scotsman? I don't see the difference. But perhaps I
misunderstood what you wrote Paul, if so , then please let me know!

Groeten

Helge
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/aa0a7e9c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 18:45:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:45:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.104533.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (04) [E]

Jonny Meibohm schreef:

I guess your information is from the English wikipedia- but I fear that's
wrong. There are, for my knowledge, no German phrases like 'braun buss' or
'brawn buss'- the only correct German word here just is 'braun'. Perhaps
the authors of that article mixed it up with the famous 'Browning'-guns,
which indeeed are very famous in Germany.

I know that in Dutch, a "bus" [b2s], which normally means a box, can
mean "gun" too, as in "donderbus" = blunderbuss. "Buks" [b2ks] is a rifle,
but the -ks in this word says it's probably a loan word, maybe from High
German or Frisian or English? Anyway, I think that this English "buss" may
be rather from Dutch than from German. Or maybe from Low Saxon, if that
has something like "büss" as well?

Ingmar

Rein schreef:

That's kind of nice in that it sounds rather familiar, something we would
say in Northern Germany. We used to call and sometimes still do call my
(much younger) brother (Michael ['miCa?El]) "Michimann" (['miCiman]).

Rein, was Michael really pronounced ["miCa?El], as you wrote about your
brother's name, or ["mixa?El] with [x] instead of [C] before "a". I'd
expect the latter but maybe it was a regional prono, or derived from
["miCi] ?

Groetz
Ingmar

----------

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, well there you have it; Joker meets Naïveté :-)

I am the last to dispute the many possible ways words
are formed although I did realize after sending off
the note that cutefy is more correct than cutify.

So where does the word cute come from?

Another question about the Elizabeth>Beth/Betsy/Bessy:
Are certain language groups more inclined to shorten the front
end of the name [Eliza/Elsie/Elsje/Elschen /Elske/Els] or the middle
part [Liza/Lisa/Liz] and other groups the end syllables?

Elsie Zinsser

*Subject:*LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]
Kevin, I think you're right about Bessy. It's interesting, too: supposedly
Beth > Beths > Bess > Bessy.

Else, I was just kidding about those terms. Sorry I didn't make that
clearer.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Ingmar (and how, pray, do I cutesify *your* name -- Mars, the Ingster?), you
wrote:

Rein, was Michael really pronounced ["miCa?El], as you wrote about your
brother's name, or ["mixa?El] with [x] instead of [C] before "a". I'd
expect the latter but maybe it was a regional prono, or derived from
["miCi] ?

It was and still is pronounced ["miCa?El] (or ["miCa?el], the [C] being a
sound as in German *ich* and as the first sound in "human" in many English
dialects, folks). This is how it's pronounced in Standard German (unless
it's an English name, and if it's a Dutch or Hebrew name among those that
are in the know). I believe there are dialectical differences in this
especially in the extreme south of the German language region.

The phoneme /x/ rarely occurs between a front and back vowel (in this order)
and where it does it's in loanwords and names, I think. The phonological
rule is that it is the preceding vowel that ultimately determines the
pronunciation of the /x/, as also in Richard ["rICart] ~ ["riCart] and *
mechanisch* [mE"Ca:nIS]. This rule applies in Low Saxon of Germany as well.

By the way, the traditional Low Saxon equivalent of Michael is Michel
[mICl]. This is also the nickname of Hamburg's landmark: the copper-plated
spire of Sankt Michaelis (St. Michael) church. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Michaelis_%28Hamburg%29 -- The church
burned down several times and was bombed as well, its present design being a
magnificent example of a northern transition from baroque to
neo-classicistic. Napoleon's occupation force turned it into horse stables
as a symbol of French opinion about Protestantism. It was its interior were
I spent the evening of 9/11 when a baroque concert was adapted and dedicated
to the victims and at the end you heard bells ring from various churches --
a very moving experience.)

Dag, Elsie!

I'll answer your question about "cute" under "Etymology".

Another question about the Elizabeth>Beth/Betsy/Bessy:
Are certain language groups more inclined to shorten the front
end of the name [Eliza/Elsie/Elsje/Elschen
/Elske/Els] or the middle
part [Liza/Lisa/Liz] and other groups the end syllables?

In Low Saxon of Germany and in German, it's both the first and middle parts.


Low Saxon: Liesbeth > Else*, Elsi, Elli, Elsje, Elke*, Lisa, Liese, Lies,
Liesel

Else and Elke have become proper names in their own right.

Elsie, since you are one of the veterans and a well-known and well-respected
mainstay of Lowlands-L you ought to get one of those "The ..." names. But
that might end up being The Elster, and *Elster* is German for 'magpie'. Not
suitable! (Not only are they thievish, but they like to attack people when
they nest, as I have experienced many times). If we went to the original
Elizabeth, we might end up with The Lister. Hmm...

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right. Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/4aa4069f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 19:52:18 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:52:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.115218.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:

Elsie asked under "Morphology":

So where does the word cute come from?

It comes from "acute" (< Latin *acut-*), originally meaning "sharp (at the
end/angle)", later expanding semantically to "abrupt" and "dramatic" and
"dire", as in "an acute (~ sharp) increase", "an acute shortage". This
developed to "sharp" with regard to "wit", appearing in literature in the
early part of the 18th century. In this sense it is preserved in expressions
such as "a cute remark" or "You think you're so cute, don't you?"

In colloquial American English, the semantics of this expanded to include
"attractive", possibly via "admirably quick-/keen-witted". This appeared in
literature in the early part of the 19th century. This sense predominates
now. Not too long ago it was limited to the sense of "sweet" or "precious",
especially of small or young creatures (including children) and female
humans. In the meantime, it has come to include the sense of "sexually
attractive" with reference to both genders.

Via literature and especially the via entertainment media, it has been
spreading to other English dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/542d3746/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 20:40:32 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:40:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.124032.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> Salew, Lewkster!
>
> > In Dutch, we call this a "koosnaam(pje)" or "troetelnaam".
>
> It's Kosename in German. I can't think of a Low Saxon equivalent.
> Anyone?
>
> > Why not a "pet name"?
>
> That's not "fancy-shmancy" linguistic, is it? It's supposed to sound
> "educated" so ordinary people don't know what mundane thing you're
> talking about.  ;-)

Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
won't do!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Sandy:

Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
won't do!

Right you are. Let's see ... something along the lines of "onomatopoeia" ...

Noun: metharmchariterpnia or metharmchariterpnosis
Verb: metharmchariterpnotize

   - μεθαρμ- (*metharm-*): change (into), make a change
   - χαριτέρπν- (*charitérpn*-): delightful, charming, enchanting

Obscure and esoteric enough a mouthful for yer?

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/cb97b7bf/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 23:07:51 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:07:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.150751.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:

Elsie asked under "Morphology":

 So where does the word cute come from?

It comes from "acute" (< Latin *acut-*), originally meaning "sharp (at the
end/angle)", later expanding semantically to "abrupt" and "dramatic" and
"dire", as in "an acute (~ sharp) increase", "an acute shortage". This
developed to "sharp" with regard to "wit", appearing in literature in the
early part of the 18th century. In this sense it is preserved in expressions
such as "a cute remark" or "You think you're so cute, don't you?"

In colloquial American English, the semantics of this expanded to include
"attractive", possibly via "admirably quick-/keen-witted". This appeared in
literature in the early part of the 19th century. This sense predominates
now. Not too long ago it was limited to the sense of "sweet" or "precious",
especially of small or young creatures (including children) and female
humans. In the meantime, it has come to include the sense of "sexually
attractive" with reference to both genders.

Via literature and especially the via entertainment media, it has been
spreading to other English dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I remember reading about sled dogs in Alaska, and the writer commenting how
native people liked to cross-breed their animals with wolves every few
generations.  The explanation, which confused her at first, was that it made
them "more cute". That was the last word she would have applied to working
Alaskan dogs!  Then she realised they meant "acute" as in sharper.  A case
of meanings going full circle!

Paul Finlow-Bates

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/a45d6ec3/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 23:55:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:55:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.16 (07) [E/LS/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.155535.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (06)
>
> Beste Mike,
>
> Du schreyvst:
>
> > HURRAY!!!
>
> Perhaps you didn't realize what this action means.
>
> According to the list of place names Heiko had sent there are about 50
> villages to re-name (why not more?). That makes 100 plates which have
> to be demounted, to be labeled and enameled newly and then to be
> re-mounted again. According to our local 'Straßenmeisterei' (road
> maintenance staff) it makes about 3,000 EURO per each- in summary
> 300,000 EURO. And that for just the doubtful change of one letter?!
> Couldn't this money be spend for better destinations?
>
> What the heck is the difference between e.g. 'Lütjensee' and
> 'Lüttensee'? Ridiculous, isn't it? "Eine echte deutsche Amtsposse (a
> 'bureaucratic coup de farce')- Schilda (pun intended) lässt grüßen!"
>
> After generations of foreign geometers, half-analphabetical
> 'Amtsschreibern' (communal clerks) now we meet the generation of
> non-native people to arrogate themselves, as a sovereign act of
> the provincial government ('fastleggen'), to fog continuously grown
> structures.
>
> And how should it be run in Northern Frisia? As far as I know some
> villages there have, besides their official German name, a Danish, a
> North Frisian and a Low Saxon one. New Babylon!
>
> And- as Ron mentioned if I understand him correctly- there should be
> really existing, still used Low Saxon names. If not, why to invent
> them? For what reason if the people, the inhabitants themselves don't
> use or even never have heard them? Just to bedevil the tourists ;-)?
>
> I cannot imagine at all that this kind of an administrative act should
> be useful for the sake of LS.
>
> Allerbest!
>
> Jonny Meibohm
>

> From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net
> <mailto:Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]
>
> Liebe Freunde zweisprachiger Ortstafeln!
> Dear friends of bilingual topographic names!
>
> Habt ihr bei den Bemühungen um zweisprachige Ortstafeln nicht manchmal
> Angst davor, unfreiwillig zur Minderheit im eigenen Land zu werden?
> Die meisten Ortsnamen und sonstigen topographischen Namen in
> Norddeutschland sind doch gemischt hoch- und niederdeutsch, man sollte
> sich da nichts vormachen. Und so schlecht ist das doch nicht, ganz im
> Gegenteil. Für mich sind sie ohnehin eher nieder- als hochdeutsch.
> Beispielsweise verwendet man in den offiziellen Ortsnamen dieses
> Kreises zwar offensichtlich einheitlich -dorf statt -dörp,
> andererseits -bek statt -bach, "-wohld" statt "-wald", "-hoop" statt
> "-haufen", "-have" statt "hafen", "Lütje-" statt "Klein-" u.ä.
>
> Wenn ich mir die Liste
>
> http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html
>
> genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest denkbar, dass als
> Gegenreaktion rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden, wie zb. Bad
> Altenlohe, Barssiedel, Bruch, Brunsbach (Braunbach), Grünwald,
> Heidekampf, Heilshaufen, Jersbach, Lasbach, Kleinsee, Münchhagen,
> Neuwald, Oststeinbach, Reinbach, Siech, Zangstadt, Tremssiedel, Witzhafen.
>
> The topograghic names in this part((Kreis [=district] Stormarn) and
> also in other parts  of Northern Germany are actually partly High
> German, partly Low German/Saxon. For example they use HG "-dorf"
> instead of "-dörp" on the other hand LG/LS "-bek" instead of "bach".
>
> The consequent divide of High- and Low-German/Saxon names could result
> in a involuntarily linguistic and ethnic separation and lead the
> declared Low-German/Saxon into a minority status in their own land!
>
> Examples:
>
> official name: Ammersbek (allegedly HG, in fact LG/LS!)
> proposed LS: Ammersbeek (only a orthographic adjustment)
> "real" HG and so a possible backlash: Ammersbach
>
> official: Bad Oldesloe (again: this is rather LG/LS than High German!)
> LS proposal: Bad Oschloe
> HG backlash: Bad Altenlohe
>
> In a HG reaction of purism also "-büttel" consequently would be
> replaced by something like "-siedel" (you discussed these words
> before), "-wohld" by "-wald", "-have" by "-hafen"
> (Witzhave/Witzhafen), "Braak" would be "Bruch", "Heilshoop" -
> "Heilshaufen", "Mönkhagen" - "Münchhagen", "Tangstedt" - "Zangstadt"
> etc (see above).
>
> Hence the mixed Low- /High-German names are not that bad, methinks.
>
> Regards
> Karl-Heinz
>
Dat deit mi düchtig argern, wenn ik so'n Schiet to lesen krieg. Jonny un
Karl-Heinz, wat ji dor schreven hebbt, dat is Scheiße (Schiet is veel to
nett). Deit mi leed, wenn ik dat so seggen mutt.

Wat is passeert?
En poor Lüüd hebbt sik de Möh maakt un hebbt de plattdüütschen Naams vun
de Öörd in'n Kreis Stormarn vullstännig tohoopsammelt. Vördem kunnst
disse Naams narms finnen.
Worüm hebbt se dat daan?
As Vörarbeit, dat dat lichter vun'e Hand geiht, wenn se sik för
plattdüütsche Naams op Oortsschiller insetten doot.

Dor is gornix 'fastleggt' worrn, denn de Lüüd, de dat sammelt hebbt, de
höört to de Fehrs-Gill un to'n Sleswigsch-Holsteenschen Heimatbund. De
sünd nich vun Staat un Obrigkeit, dat sünd jüstso'n Lüüd as wi, de en
beten vun jemeer Freetiet hergeven doot un sik ut Freid un 'Leevd to de
Spraak' mit dat Plattdüütsche befaten doot. Jüst as bi di, leve Jonny,
is dat jemeer Mudderspraak. Un wenn bi jo ok blot en Funken vun "assume
good faith" vörhannen is, denn köönt ji doch woll kuum dor an denken,
dat disse Lüüd sik de Naams utdenken doot!?
Disse Lüüd hebbt jüstso as ji Frünnen un Bekannte, hebbt Kontakt to de
Minschen. De leevt in kene Fantasiewelt. In all de 109 Dörper, de in de
List opdükern doot, dor gifft dat noch Lüüd, de Platt as Mudderspraak
snacken doot, dor köönt ji vun utgahn. Un de Lüüd vun Fehrs-Gill un
Sleswigsch-Holsteenschen Heimatbund hebbt sik de Möh maakt, hebbt in all
disse 109 Dörper anropen oder Breev schreven, oder wat weet ik, se hebbt
mit de Lüüd snackt, wat bruukt ji op Platt för en Naam för joon Dörp, wo
deet ji dat schrieven un so wieder. Dat is en Barg Arbeit. Disse Arbeit
hebbt sik de Lüüd maakt. 109 Öörd. Un dor hebbt se denn de List vun
maakt. Wo argdenkern mutt een wesen, dat dor Kritik afgeven warrt?
Good, Heiko hett dat Woort 'fastleggt' en beten unvörsichtig bruukt. He
harr man beter 'sammelt' seggt. Aver dor bruukst doch nich so'n Fatt vun
apen maken, oder? Jonny, mit dien utverschaamt aggressive Wöör hest du
Reinhard un sogor Yasuji Waki in't feerne Japan glöven laten, dat dor
Schiet maakt warrt mit de Naams in Stormarn.
'Fastleggt' hebbt se de Naams tominnst sowied, dat se sik op een
Schrievwies fastleggt hebbt. Wenn wi hier vun Schrievwies snackt, denn
hett dat nich mit Gewalt un Anpassen an een Norm to doon, dat heet man
blot, dat nich dat ene Dörp Noordwoold heten deit un dat Naverdörp
Süüdwohld un dat drüdde Westwold. Dat is allens, wat se dor an disse
Naams villicht an ännert hebbt. Ans is allens 'Natur'.
Un wat Karl-Heinz schrifft, kunn allens ok ut'n Mund vun en ganz
engsteernten Hoochdüütschen-un-ans-nix kamen. En Woort oder Naam is nich
Deel vun en Spraak na Luudform, en Woort oder Naam is Deel vun en Spraak
na Gebruuk. Wenn ik op Hoochdüütsch 'Browser' seggen do, denn is dat
keen engelsch Woort, denn is dat en hoochdüütsch Woort, dat ut dat
Engelsche övernahmen is.
 > Wenn ich mir die Liste [..] genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest
denkbar, dass als Gegenreaktion rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden
Nä!
Tüdelkraam dat. Lütjensee is hoochdüütsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn vun
af. Dat de Naam ut dat Plattdüütsche stammt ännert dor nix an. Un wenn
de Oort nu op Platt hüdigendaags Lüttensee heet, denn schall disse Naam
ünnerdükert warrn, denn he is ja man blot een Bookstaven wied weg vun
dat Hoochdüütsche?
not distinct enough to coexist, oder wat?

Gah mi dor vun af.

Marcus Buck
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/97fe3a5a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 23:48:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:48:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language used" 2007.11.16 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.154800.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (01) [E]

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (05) [E]

>Dear Paul,

>I have to admit, I don't really understand your comment there at the end of
>Jonny's little ancdote.

Hi Helge,

Nothing to do with hunting! My comment was based on Johnny's suggestion that
if he'd used Standard German, he would have been met with an angry
reaction.  I only speak Standard German, so I assume I would get the same
bad reaction in the North. That's why I said I'd give the North a miss.  ( I
also speak some Afrikaans and a bit of Dutch but I don't suppose they'd help
much).  What I find even more surprising is that other Lowlanders seem to
regard this anti-German feeling as a good thing, to be encouraged.

Going in the other direction, I certainly met with no hostility in Austria
because I can't speak the Tyrolean of the Zillertal; they just spoke
standard German to me.

> A Londoner would expect that a person who comes to live in his town learns
>the English language in a way that he/she understands it, what is normal
and >perfectly alright for a Londoner is then suddenly chauvinism if the
same >demands come from a Low Saxon or, let's say a Geordie or Scotsman? I
don't >see the difference.

In England or Scotland, this is definitely not the case.  People here don't
like outsiders trying to speak the local dialect, they assume you are making
fun their speech.  They expect Standard English, even if spoken in the
visitor's own accent.  Geordies outside the Northeast tend to say "go"
rather than "gan", "our" rather than "wor", "can't" rather than "canna" but
they still have Northumberland accents.

If an outsider lives in an area long enough to naturally acquire some of the
local speech pattern, that's fine, but trying to "speak native" will win you
few friends anywhere in Britain.

Cheers

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Language use

Hi, Paul!

Obviously I can't speak for Jonny, but I can tell you that I didn't get your
meaning right away either.

The way I understood Jonny's point was that the use of Low Saxon introduced
a more familial tone that diffused a volatile situation. The guy was not
pleased, but Jonny's demeanor, accentuated by his use of local lingo, took
the sting out of it.

I am not saying that there isn't a north-south divide. There is or at least
used to be (that is fundamentally of religious origin, and I bear personal
witness). However, I don't think Jonny's story was really about that. I
think it was about Standard German as a "neutral" lingua franca that tends
to maintain a certain distance between strangers by default. In part this is
because it requires you to use polite forms. In rural areas, use of the
standard form tends to be associated with city folk and Germany "out there,"
as opposed to people within the familial environment of the village. So this
could very well be the nearest city, not necessarily a city in the south.
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the guy could tell by Jonny's accent that he
was a North German. However, Jonny, by using the local lingo, even though
the guy couldn't speak it himself, signaled that he lived in or came from
the very area.

So what we seem to be dealing with here is a code choice for the purpose of
symbolically setting a cultural and social tone. ("I'm not one of those city
snobs that exploit our area for occasional hunting adventures and due to
ignorance and incompetence wreak havoc on locals' lives and livelihood.")
So, if it was about stereotyping and prejudices, it probably was a
country-versus-city thing rather than a north-versus-south thing.

As you may have noticed on occasion, people in rural Northern Germany tend
to (mistakenly) believe that proficiency in Low Saxon is exclusively rural,
that this is one of the things that differentiate them from city dwellers. I
believe that this is one of the reasons why some of them are surprised by
city dwellers' use and proficiency of the language and why they like to
dismiss it as unauthentic and plain wrong, especially when different and new
expressions are used. Thereby they seem to be declaring urban use of the
language invalid, this being an attempt to neutralize what they perceive as
being a threat (= change).

That's was my take on it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/19d769a8/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 01:45:41 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:45:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.174541.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (01) [E]

 Hoi alltouhoop,

Thank you for a lovely story Jonny!
In a way it reminds me of the story of my first visit to a rural post office
in Quebec Province, Canada:

My truckdriver friend, a Mennonite Plautsnakker, warned me that the rural
'Québécoise' will refuse to speak to us in English. So we decided
beforehand to
talk to each other in Afrikaans and in Plautdietsch in case this should
happen.

Well, the good old lady greeted us in French, asked where we were from and
grumbled about the rain ruining her raspberries. I asked her for stamps and
she went on refusing to understand me. So then we started talking in our
mother tongues. And she understood the dilemma and said
in good English, 'Oh,
you don't speak French?' and sold me a few stamps.

You go Elsie! I don't understand why people have to be like that and act
like they are monolinguals when they ARE NOT!
Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/9dec4fa0/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 02:30:41 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:30:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.183041.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 09
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (04) [E]

Sandy Fleming wrote:

Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
won't do!
...

Well, the Reinster said "cutesification", with an S. I'd say this had a
reason, because it was about the S as a special suffix here. Am I right?
So, I think "cutesifaction suffix" is a perfectly fit term for this
special affectionate S!

Ingmar

---------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (04) [E]

typo, I mean cutesification, not cutesifaction of course!

> Sandy Fleming wrote:
>
> Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
> won't do!
> ...
>
> Well, the Reinster said "cutesification", with an S. I'd say this had a
> reason, because it was about the S as a special suffix here. Am I right?
> So, I think "cutesifaction suffix" is a perfectly fit term for this
> special affectionate S!
>
> Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

See, folks? *Some*one got it.

You give people cutesifaction by cutesifying names, just as by satisfying
people (by means of satisfication, of course ;-) ) you give them
satisfaction. So there!

Sandy and I wrote:

Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
won't do!

Right you are. Let's see ... something along the lines of "onomatopoeia" ...


Noun: metharmchariterpnia or metharmchariterpnosis
Verb: metharmchariterpnotize

   - μεθαρμ- (*metharm-*): change (into), make a change
   - χαριτέρπν- (*charitérpn*-): delightful, charming, enchanting

At second thought, "onomatopoeia" is really an anomaly, and the ones Sandy
forced me to create sound like diseases or last-ditch treatments mental
health specialists subject folks to, don't they? Linguistic terms are
usually Latin-derived while most health-care terms are Greek-derived. So,
how about the following Latin-derived proposals?

Noun: blandification
Verb: blandify

   - *bland-* >
   - *blandire* 'to flatter', 'to caress', 'to coax'
   - *blanditia* 'flattery', 'allurement', 'attraction', 'charm'

Noun: delenition
Verb: deleniate

   - *delen-* >
   - *delenire *'to soften down', 'to soothe', 'to charm'
   - *delenimentum* 'that which softens, soothes or charms'

Noun: delicification
Verb: delicify

   - *delic-** >
   - *deliciae* 'allurements', 'attraction', 'charms', delights',
   'fancies'
   - *delicia*, *delicius *'darling', 'sweetheart'

* This is found in words like "delicate" and "delicious", also to the
archaic words "delice" (= "delight"), "delicies" ("delights", 'joys"),
"delicities" ("delights", 'joys") and "to deliciate" ("to delight", "to
enjoy oneself"). "Delight" looks like it too, but the *OED* claims it comes
from a misspelled rendition of Middle English *delit* from Old French *delit
*, from Latin *deliter*. But isn't that related also?

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/9e3e5dc7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:42:38 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:42:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.17 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.124238.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  17 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

 Another question about the Elizabeth>Beth/Betsy/Bessy:
Are certain language groups more inclined to shorten the front
end of the name [Eliza/Elsie/Elsje/Elschen
Elsie,

I was shocked to find out that Queen Elizabeth of England is not known as
Reina Elizabet here but Isabel! That sound so weird to me to think that the
brits are ruled by Ferdinand's wife? I see how it came down phonologically
from the Hebrew, but it's still strange.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Ben!

Names of famous people are very often translated in English too; e.g., ...

   - Edward of Portugal < (Portuguese) *Duarte de Portugal*
   - Ferdinand V of Aragon < (Castilian) *Fernando V de Aragón*,
   (Aragonese) *Ferrando II d'Aragón*, (Catalan) *Ferran II d'Aragó*
   - Henry the Navigator < (Portuguese) *Infante Dom Henrique*, *Infante
   de Sagres*, *Henrique o **Navegador*
   - Isabella I of Castile < (Castilian) *Isabel I de Castilla*
   - Nicholas II of Russia < (Russian) *Николай II Александрович
   Всероссийский* (*Nikolaj II Aleksandrovič Vserossiskij*)
   - Pippin the Short < (French) *Pépin le Bref*
   - Pope John Paul II < (Latin) *Papa Ioannes Paulus Secundus*
   - Suleiman the Magnificent < (Ottoman Turkish) سليمان القانونى (*Sulaymān
   al-Qānūnī*), (Turkish) *Kanuni Sultan Süleyman*
   - Wenceslaus (~ Wenceslas) IV < (Czech) *Václav IV.*
   - William the Conqueror, William the Bastard < (Norman) *Gllâome lé
   Counqùéreus*, *Gllâome lé **Bâtard*, (French) *Guillaume le Conquérant
   *, *Guillaume le Bâtard*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/82b6a23b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:47:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:47:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.11.17 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.124707.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Terminology - Events

 I happen to be in East-Hartford Connecticut in the week of December 10.
I see in the event calendar of a school in Manchester (Conn.) on December 10
they have:
*Cow Raffle Dress Down Day*
Can somebody explain what this means?
Thanks,
Regards,
Roger

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/83f126a4/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:50:11 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:50:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.17 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.125011.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

Hi all,

Thanks, Ron, for explaining the LS troetelnaampie-forms deriving from
Elizabeth.

Jikes, veteran does sound somewhat old, doesn't it? As it is, some of my
colleagues do call me 'Gogo' which means grandma in Zulu.

You may call me the Lyster, a kind of thrush, for whom I have immense
gratitude for providing calming calls after 4 am when fear chased the sleep
away. But it is the same little bugger who messes up my neatly raked bundles
of leaves, then pitches its head to a side to listen out for a bug's
frightened shuffle.

Of course this has nothing to do with morphology.

Cheerio,

Elsie Zinsser

>In Low Saxon of Germany and in German, it's both the first and middle
parts.
Low Saxon: Liesbeth > Else*, Elsi, Elli, Elsje, Elke*, Lisa, Liese, Lies,
Liesel
Else and Elke have become proper names in their own right.

Elsie, since you are one of the veterans and a well-known and well-respected
mainstay of Lowlands-L you ought to get one of those "The ..." names. But
that might end up being The Elster, and Elster is German for 'magpie'. Not
suitable! (Not only are they thievish, but they like to attack people when
they nest, as I have experienced many times). If we went to the original
Elizabeth, we might end up with The Lister. Hmm...

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right. Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/8c8885f2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:54:18 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:54:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.17 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.125418.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (09) [E]

Ron contributed: * This is found in words like "delicate" and "delicious",
also to the archaic words "delice" (= "delight"), "delicies" ("delights",
'joys"), "delicities" ("delights", 'joys") and "to deliciate" ("to delight",
"to enjoy oneself"). "Delight" looks like it too, but the *OED* claims it
comes from a misspelled rendition of Middle English *delit* from Old French
*delit*, from Latin *deliter*. But isn't that related also?
Alright Ron. That than can have the special meaning of the "delight" ????
 some people feel when getting up in the morning. Jacqueline

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (05) [E]

Hi all,

Thanks, Ron, for explaining the origin of 'cute'.

Paul, I have acquired an 'Alaskan husky' last year, and apart from the fact
that he is amazingly bright, he actually looks much more like a coyote than
like a husky. He believes 'working breed' means catching a dove every
morning and devouring feathers and all!

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:

Elsie asked under "Morphology":

So where does the word cute come from?

It comes from "acute" (< Latin acut-), originally meaning "sharp (at the
end/angle)", later expanding semantically to "abrupt" and "dramatic" and
"dire", as in "an acute (~ sharp) increase", "an acute shortage". This
developed to "sharp" with regard to "wit", appearing in literature in the
early part of the 18th century. In this sense it is preserved in expressions
such as "a cute remark" or "You think you're so cute, don't you?"

In colloquial American English, the semantics of this expanded to include
"attractive", possibly via "admirably quick-/keen-witted". This appeared in
literature in the early part of the 19th century. This sense predominates
now. Not too long ago it was limited to the sense of "sweet" or "precious",
especially of small or young creatures (including children) and female
humans. In the meantime, it has come to include the sense of "sexually
attractive" with reference to both genders.

Via literature and especially the via entertainment media, it has been
spreading to other English dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I remember reading about sled dogs in Alaska, and the writer commenting how
native people liked to cross-breed their animals with wolves every few
generations.  The explanation, which confused her at first, was that it made
them "more cute". That was the last word she would have applied to working
Alaskan dogs!  Then she realised they meant "acute" as in sharper.  A case
of meanings going full circle!

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/4b67f06a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:57:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:57:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.17 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.125735.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language used" 2007.11.16 (06) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Language use

Hi, Paul!

Obviously I can't speak for Jonny, but I can tell you that I didn't get your
meaning right away either.

.......

That's was my take on it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

No, it looks like I got the wrong idea!

Cheers

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language used" 2007.11.16 (06) [E]

 Thanks, Paul and Ron,

for having cleared up some missunderstandings.

Paul wrote:
>  What I find even more surprising is that other Lowlanders seem to regard
this anti-German feeling as a good thing, to be encouraged.

I don't think it's too bad to be a little bit anti-German from time to time-
it keeps us to be in practice ;-)!
This slight missinterpretation reminds me at a story often told by my
father. In the early fifties from time to time he used to visit a man with
the illustrious name 'Onno Menno Onnen' in Eastern Frisia. He always got
invited for a cup of the famous Frisian tea (the latter described by a
certain R.F.H. here: http://www.lowlands-l.net/travels/teetied.php ) with
the words "Kom' 'rin, kom' 'rin! Loot 's Tey drinken un praten! Wat givvt'
Neyet in Duitsland?" ("Come in for a cup of tea and a little talk. What's
the news in Germany?"[Watch the Frisian/Dutch words *'praten'* and *
'Duitsland'*...]).- Perhaps I should mention that Eastern Frisia always
belonged to the 'Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations' and already since
A.D. 1744 had been under Prussian reign before A.D. 1871 there was a united
Germany established.
Similar things could have happened in all the German provinces situated at
the boarders of the main land, as history shows in the case of the north of
Slesvig-Holstein, the Saarland, Bavaria and even East Prussia whose
inhabitants always made a difference between their province and the 'Reich'.
But- going far off-topic now- I think there are only very few countries in
Europe one could call 'homogeneous'; perhaps Denmark or Poland coming close
to this attribute?

Ron schreyv:

> The way I understood Jonny's point was that the use of Low Saxon
introduced a more familial tone that diffused a volatile situation. The guy
> was not pleased, but Jonny's demeanor, accentuated by his use of local
lingo, took the sting out of it.

You hit it! Thanks!

> As you may have noticed on occasion, people in rural Northern Germany tend
to (mistakenly) believe that proficiency in Low Saxon is
> exclusively rural, that this is one of the things that differentiate them
from city dwellers. I believe that this is one of the reasons why some of
> them are surprised by city dwellers' use and proficiency of the language
and why they like to dismiss it as unauthentic and plain wrong,
> especially when different and new expressions are used. Thereby they seem
to be declaring urban use of the language invalid, this being
> an attempt to neutralize what they perceive as being a threat (= change).

I'd rather think everyone is welcomed here to speak Low Saxon his own way-
as long as he doesn't intend to kill our local dialect ;-)! Perhaps you
should take a look here
http://www.stern.de/lifestyle/reise/598060.html?q=Amazonas%20hinterm%20Deich
to learn
something more about the hillbilly - clichè of our region ;-).

Allerbest and nice weekend!

Jonny Meibohm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/d9444d0e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 21:07:13 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:07:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.17 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.130713.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.16 (07) [E/LS/German]

Marcus Buck schrieb

> ...so'n Schiet ...
> ...dat is Scheiße...
> ...(Schiet is veel to nett).
>...Schiet maakt ...
Da hat er wohl recht und am Ende wohl auch hier, wo er behauptet,
> ...Lütjensee is hoochdüütsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn vun af.

> Wenn ik op Hoochdüütsch 'Browser' seggen do, denn is dat
> keen engelsch Woort,

Weiter:
>  Heiko hett dat Woort 'fastleggt' en beten unvörsichtig bruukt
Alles meine Schuld...

> Un wat Karl-Heinz schrifft, kunn allens ok ut'n Mund vun en ganz
> engsteernten Hoochdüütschen-un-ans-nix kamen.
...und die von Karl-Heinz, wenn die groteske Lächerlichkeit solcher Projekte
offenbar wird und bis nach Japan überschwappt. (Look, Paul [Finlow-B.]- one
more North German citizen who hates the Standard Germans ;-))!

Karl-Heinz, lass' uns in Zukunft nicht mehr '*Bützfleth*', sondern '*
Schollenfilet*' sagen. Die gleichnamigen Einwohner verkaufen wir dann an *
'Himmelpforten*'- äh- *'Haeben's Döör'* oder an '*Hammah*', platt '*Homer*'.

Um im gleichen Tenor zu bleiben: was für ein B*u*ckmist ;-)!
Sollte hier, bei uns, irgendwann Ähnliches verordnet werden, lass' ich den
besten Graffity-Sprayer aus Cuxhaven kommen und auf das vermadderte
Ortsschild ein knackiges Pin-Up applizieren.

> Gah mi dor vun af.
Klei mii ;-)!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Now, now, boys!

"Lowlands" doesn't have to mean "low road."

Man jümmers suut un sinnig in'n Sandkassen!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/351b37ec/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 18 18:19:20 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:19:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.101920.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (08) [E]

Hi all,

Ben, I find it so incredibly petty when people try and push their narrow
views and tongues down my throat, and still see the same mentality here and
abroad.

I would have gladly spoken in French if I could!

It is the most glorious thing every morning to enter the lift in my office
building and be greeted by either a Dumelang! or Sanibona! or Goeie Môre!
and no one feels offended!

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/9728768a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 18 18:23:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:23:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.11.18 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.102300.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.11.17 (02) [E]

Roger,

As I understand, it is a means by which monies are collected (milked like a
cow) and to partake, the school pupils pay a certain amount and are allowed
to dress 'down'.

We have the same thing here in SA to collect monies for the cancer
association. It's called Casual Day; you dress in denims to work and pay R5
which is collected by a partaking bank on behalf of the cancer association.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.11.17 (02) [E]

Not sure what a cow raffle is (are they holding a raffle with a cow as the
prize? Or maybe it's one of those raffles where the winning numbers are
"selected" by a cow – the field is marked with a numbered grid, and wherever
a cowpie lands is a winning number). The "dress down" part probably means
the students are allowed to wear regular clothes to school that day instead
of uniforms.

Kevin Caldwell
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/633c0c73/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 18 18:25:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:25:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.18 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.102547.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.17 (04) [E]

 In colloquial American English, the semantics of this expanded to include
"attractive", possibly via "admirably quick-/keen-witted". This appeared in
literature
in the early part of the 19th century. This sense predominates now. Not too
long ago it was limited to the sense of "sweet" or "precious", especially of
small or young creatures (including children) and female humans. In the
meantime, it has come to include the sense of "sexually attractive" with
reference
to both genders.

Paul, Ron, Elsie and all,

Whenever I hear the word "cute", I hear my mother watching our beloved
Arizona Diamondbacks baseball team back in Arizona. Whenever a new batter
would come up to bat, she would comment on whether he's cute or not. My dad,
my brother and I would just laugh and sigh, as we have no idea where she
gets her concepts. They have nothing at all to do with baseball. They're
just her concepts of what an attractive man is or is not. On the usage of
cute though, it's something that, in my estimation, is said by a woman about
a man. You would not catch a man dead saying that a woman is cute. She's
hot, but she is not cute!
Ben

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/d8e616ca/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 18 22:46:18 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:46:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.144618.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.17 (01) [E]

Hi all,

The best example of a cookie by any other name is still a cookie, was when
my youngest sister
sent me a parcel of "Maria" biscuits from Palo Alto, CA in the '80s.

Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser
 I was shocked to find out that Queen Elizabeth of England is not known as
Reina Elizabet here but Isabel! That sound so weird to me to think that the
brits are ruled by Ferdinand's wife? I see how it came down phonologically
from the Hebrew, but it's still strange.

Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Ben!

Names of famous people are very often translated in English too; e.g., ...

   - Edward of Portugal < (Portuguese) *Duarte de Portugal*
   - Ferdinand V of Aragon < (Castilian) *Fernando V de Aragón*,
   (Aragonese) *Ferrando II d'Aragón*, (Catalan) *Ferran II d'Aragó*
   - Henry the Navigator < (Portuguese) *Infante Dom Henrique, Infante de
   Sagres, Henrique o Navegador*
   - Isabella I of Castile < (Castilian) *Isabel I de Castilla*
   - Nicholas II of Russia < (Russian) *Николай II Александрович
   Всероссийский* (*Nikolaj II Aleksandrovič Vserossiskij*)
   - Pippin the Short < (French) *Pépin le Bref *
   - Pope John Paul II < (Latin) *Papa Ioannes Paulus Secundus *
   - Suleiman the Magnificent < (Ottoman Turkish) سليمان القانونى (*Sulaymān
   al-Qānūnī*), (Turkish) *Kanuni Sultan Süleyman*
   - Wenceslaus (~ Wenceslas) IV < (Czech) *Václav IV.*
   - William the Conqueror, William the Bastard < (Norman) *Gllâome lé
   Counqùéreus, Gllâome lé Bâtard*, (French) *Guillaume le Conquérant,
   Guillaume le Bâtard*

----------

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell < kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

By the way, another diminutive of Elizabeth in English is Libby, sometimes
further shortened to Lib.  Then there's the nickname used by the boy for his
sister Elizabeth in the comic strip "For Better or for Worse": Lizard
Breath.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.17 (03) [E]

Reindert schreef:

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right.
Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than
when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Same name with same pronunciation is pretty common in the Netherlands, too.
It's an abbreviation of Reindert, the Dutch form of Reinhard.
And we have the (in)famous, smart and cunning fox "Reintje de Vos" of the
Medieval epic farce "van den Vos Reynaerde". I guess his name has
something to do with French Rénard = fox, but Reinhard is a Germanic name
too, of course. By which I don't mean to say anything about your foxiness
or foxilessness, of course ;-)
Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thanks for reminding us of "Libby," Kevin. It's interesting in that it
combines the "Li" of the original's stressed syllable and the "b" of the
last syllable.

One of the German and Low Saxon derivations of "Elisabeth" ([?e"li:zabEt])
is "Liesbeth" (["li:sbEt]). That was one of my second aunts' name, and down
in the former Sorbian area where she lived (right on the Polish border and
very close to the Czech border) I heard some people pronounce it as what
sounded like "Libbet" (["LIbEt"]) or "Libbit" (["lIbIt])*, though others
called her "Lies(e)l" ([li:zl]). (* The Lower Silesian German dialect on
Sorbian substrate spoken there tends to assimilate a sonorant, especially
/r/, to the following consonant, hence my maternal grandmother's
pronunciation of our names: Herta -> Hetta -> Hettl, Werner -> Wenner,
[Barbara >] Bärbel -> Bebbl, Reinhard -> Reinaddl, and her own name Martha
-> Matta -- all without aspiration, by the way.)

The older Low Saxon version of "Elizabeth" (found in the story about the
fisherman and his wife) is "Ilsebil", "Ilsebel", "Elsebel", etc. (from which
"Ilse" and "Else" are derived, now considered independent names). It is
interesting in that it seems to be a bit of a link between the two streams
the Hebrew name "Elisheva" (אֱלִישֶׁבַע *'ĕliyšeba'* "My God Is My
Sustenance") followed in Europe: (1) "Elizabeth" etc., and (2) "Isabel" etc.
There is perhaps some confusion with "Jezebel" (Hebrew אִיזֶבֶל *'iyzebel* ~
אִיזָבֶל *'iyzâbel*, popularly translated as "Not Exalted" but more likely
being "Where Is The Lord," going back to Ugaritic times). This name acquired
a bad connotation (and possibly a changed reading) on the basis of a
biblical story and in English became a word describing a wicked woman.

Thanks for the info about my name in Dutch, Ingmar (> Mars > Mazzel?). I
find it interesting that Dutch (and Dutch-influenced Low Saxon) likes (or
liked) to insert a /d/ after /n/, as also in "Hendrik" (cf. "Henrik",
"Hinrik" and "Hinnerk" in other Low Saxon dialects).

Talking about "Hendrik" (= Heinrich, Henry, etc.), I wonder if the English
surname "Henderson" goes back to the often mentioned "Flemish" immigrants in
Britain ("Son of Hender" < Hendrik?).

Back to my legal first name ... The Middle Saxon equivalent is "Reynard"
with the diminutive form "Reynke", *Reynard the Fox* being *Reynke de
vos*in the Middle Saxon version (Lübeck, 1498,
http://tinyurl.com/3b9jah). The Dutch version *Van den vos Reynaerde* (
http://tinyurl.com/37rcz2) is from the 13th century, the French version *Le
Roman de Renart* from the late 12th century, and this crafty fox is first
mentioned in the Latin mock-epic *Ysengrimus* in the mid-12th century.
Although most people believe this tradition is of French origin, I think
there's a distinct possibility of it being of Germanic, possibly Flemish,
origin, going by the names alone. It appears to be related to the Spanish *
Zorro* ("Fox") tradition. It is clear to me that the main purpose of the
story was social commentary centered around the figure of a clever outlaw
that exposes institutionalized insincerity and injustice.

The name Reynard, Reinhard, etc., comes from Raginhart: *ragin* 'counsel',
advice', 'guidance', *hart* 'hard', 'firm', 'reliable'. It appears to have
once been a title. *Ragin* is also contained in names like Reinhold,
Reginald, Reinaldo, Rainaud, Rainier, René, Rainer, Ragnar, etc.

   - My least favorite namesake: Reinhard Heydrich, SS-Obergruppenführer
   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich)
   - My most favorite namesake: Reinhard Mey (*Frédérik Mey* in the
   Francophone world), singer/songwriter in German, French and occasionally
   Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey)*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey%29*>

As for your reference to my alleged "foxiness," Ingmar, well, I take it as a
compliment, and it flatters me to know that you find me that attractive.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

* Reinhard Mey is a real Lowlander at heart, by the way, even though he grew
up in formerly Low Saxon but long highly Germanized Berlin and was educated
in a Francophone school. He owns a house in Kampen (*Kaamp*), on the Island
of Sylt (


L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.17 (01) [E]

Hi all,

The best example of a cookie by any other name is still a cookie, was when
my youngest sister
sent me a parcel of "Maria" biscuits from Palo Alto, CA in the '80s.

Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser


I was shocked to find out that Queen Elizabeth of England is not known as
Reina Elizabet here but Isabel! That sound so weird to me to think that the
brits are ruled by Ferdinand's wife? I see how it came down phonologically
from the Hebrew, but it's still strange.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Ben!

Names of famous people are very often translated in English too; e.g., ...

·              Edward of Portugal < (Portuguese) Duarte de Portugal

·              Ferdinand V of Aragon < (Castilian) Fernando V de Aragón,
(Aragonese) Ferrando II d'Aragón , (Catalan) Ferran II d'Aragó

·              Henry the Navigator < (Portuguese) Infante Dom Henrique,
Infante de Sagres, Henrique o Navegador

·              Isabella I of Castile < (Castilian) Isabel I de Castilla

·              Nicholas II of Russia < (Russian) Николай II Александрович
Всероссийский (Nikolaj II Aleksandrovič Vserossiskij)

·              Pippin the Short < (French) Pépin le Bref

·              Pope John Paul II < (Latin) Papa Ioannes Paulus Secundus

·              Suleiman the Magnificent < (Ottoman Turkish) سليمان
القانونى (Sulaymān
al-Qānūnī), (Turkish) Kanuni Sultan Süleyman

·              Wenceslaus (~ Wenceslas) IV < (Czech) Václav IV.

·              William the Conqueror, William the Bastard < (Norman) Gllâome
lé Counqùéreus, Gllâome lé Bâtard, (French) Guillaume le Conquérant,
Guillaume le Bâtard

----------

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell < kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

By the way, another diminutive of Elizabeth in English is Libby, sometimes
further shortened to Lib.  Then there's the nickname used by the boy for his
sister Elizabeth in the comic strip "For Better or for Worse": Lizard
Breath.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.17 (03) [E]

Reindert schreef:

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right.
Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than
when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Same name with same pronunciation is pretty common in the Netherlands, too.
It's an abbreviation of Reindert, the Dutch form of Reinhard.
And we have the (in)famous, smart and cunning fox "Reintje de Vos" of the
Medieval epic farce "van den Vos Reynaerde". I guess his name has
something to do with French Rénard = fox, but Reinhard is a Germanic name
too, of course. By which I don't mean to say anything about your foxiness
or foxilessness, of course ;-)
Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thanks for reminding us of "Libby," Kevin. It's interesting in that it
combines the "Li" of the original's stressed syllable and the "b" of the
last syllable.

One of the German and Low Saxon derivations of "Elisabeth" ([?e"li:zabEt])
is "Liesbeth" (["li:sbEt]). That was one of my second aunts' name, and down
in the former Sorbian area where she lived (right on the Polish border and
very close to the Czech border) I heard some people pronounce it as what
sounded like "Libbet" (["LIbEt"]) or "Libbit" (["lIbIt])*, though others
called her "Lies(e)l" ([li:zl]). (* The Lower Silesian German dialect on
Sorbian substrate spoken there tends to assimilate a sonorant, especially
/r/, to the following consonant, hence my maternal grandmother's
pronunciation of our names: Herta -> Hetta -> Hettl, Werner -> Wenner,
[Barbara >] Bärbel -> Bebbl, Reinhard -> Reinaddl, and her own name Martha
-> Matta -- all without aspiration, by the way.)

The older Low Saxon version of "Elizabeth" (found in the story about the
fisherman and his wife) is "Ilsebil", "Ilsebel", "Elsebel", etc. (from which
"Ilse" and "Else" are derived, now considered independent names). It is
interesting in that it seems to be a bit of a link between the two streams
the Hebrew name "Elisheva" (אֱלִישֶׁבַע *'ĕliyšeba'* "My God Is My
Sustenance") followed in Europe: (1) "Elizabeth" etc., and (2) "Isabel" etc.
There is perhaps some confusion with "Jezebel" (Hebrewאִיזֶבֶל * **'**iyzeb
el* ~אִיזָבֶל  ***'**i**yzâbel*, popularly translated as "Not Exalted" but
more likely being "Where Is The Lord," going back to Ugaritic times). This
name acquired a bad connotation (and possibly a changed reading) on the
basis of a biblical story and in English became a word describing a wicked
woman.

Thanks for the info about my name in Dutch, Ingmar (> Mars > Mazzel?). I
find it interesting that Dutch (and Dutch-influenced Low Saxon) likes (or
liked) to insert a /d/ after /n/, as also in "Hendrik" (cf. "Henrik",
"Hinrik" and "Hinnerk" in other Low Saxon dialects).

Talking about "Hendrik" (= Heinrich, Henry, etc.), I wonder if the English
surname "Henderson" goes back to the often mentioned "Flemish" immigrants in
Britain ("Son of Hender" < Hendrik?).

Back to my legal first name ... The Middle Saxon equivalent is "Reynard"
with the diminutive form "Reynke", *Reynard the Fox* being *Reynke de
vos*in the Middle Saxon version (Lübeck, 1498,
http://tinyurl.com/3b9jah). The Dutch version *Van den vos Reynaerde* (
http://tinyurl.com/37rcz2) is from the 13th century, the French version *Le
Roman de Renart* from the late 12th century, and this crafty fox is first
mentioned in the Latin mock-epic *Ysengrimus* in the mid-12th century.
Although most people believe this tradition is of French origin, I think
there's a distinct possibility of it being of Germanic, possibly Flemish,
origin, going by the names alone. It appears to be related to the Spanish *
Zorro* ("Fox") tradition. It is clear to me that the main purpose of the
story was social commentary centered around the figure of a clever outlaw
that exposes institutionalized insincerity and injustice.

The name Reynard, Reinhard, etc., comes from Raginhart: *ragin* 'counsel',
advice', 'guidance', *hard* 'hard', 'firm', 'reliable'. It appears to have
once been a title. *Ragin* is also contained in names like Reinhold,
Reginald, Reinaldo, Rainaud, Rainier, René, Rainer, Ragnar, etc.

   - My least favorite namesake: Reinhard Heydrich, SS-Obergruppenführer
   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich)
   - My most favorite namesake: Reinhard Mey ( *Frédérik Mey* in the
   Francophone world), singer/songwriter in German, French and occasionally
   Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey)*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey%29*>

As for references to my alleged "foxiness," Ingmar, well, I take it as a
compliment, and it flatters me no end to know that at least one person on
LL-L finds me that attractive.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

* Reinhard Mey is a real Lowlander at heart, by the way, even though he grew
up in formerly Low Saxon but long highly Germanized Berlin and was educated
in a Francophone school. He owns a house in Kampen (*Kaamp*), on the Island
of Sylt (*Söl*), often expresses his love for the North Sea, displays an
affinity for the Dutch-speaking world, and two of his recent DVD titles are
North Frisian: *Rüm Hart* ("Spacious Heart", http://tinyurl.com/2cpad7) and
*Klaar Kiming* ("Clear Horizon", http://tinyurl.com/2bypr3) based on the
North Frisian motto *Rüm Hart, klaar Kiming*.), often expresses his love for
the North Sea, displays an affinity for the Dutch-speaking world, and two of
his DVD titles are North Frisian: *Rüm Hart* ("Spacious Heart",
http://tinyurl.com/2cpad7) and *Klaar Kiming* ("Clear Horizon",
http://tinyurl.com/2bypr3) based on the North Frisian motto *Rüm Hart, klaar
Kiming*.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/044a1703/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 02:23:34 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:23:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.18 (05) [LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.182334.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.17 (06) [E/LS]

To dat Thema "plattdüütsche Naams op Oortsschiller un de List vun
Fehrs-Gill un Sleswig-Holsteenschen Heimatbund" noch en Nadrag:
<http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2007/11/07/813579.html> Artikel "Besser
Bartheidel oder Bartheil?" in't Hambörger Avendblatt

Ik weet nu nich, ob dat nu Water op Jonny sien Möhlen is oder ob dat
ganz in't Gegendeel bewiesen deit, dat de Lüüd sik de Problems bewusst
sünd, dor schöölt ji sülvst joon Oordeel maken.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Kriggst 'n Dank, Marcus.

Sülven kann ik daar keen Water bi sehn. Man in elk Fall köönt wi Gummischöh
antrecken un de Möhl ehrn Gang lopen laten.  ;-)

Dat klingt mi na 'n dane Saak. Man bloots 'n paar Enkelheiten mööt se noch
œver snacken un lokaal "fastsetten".

So is 't bi annere Spraken je ook, besünners Spraken, de keen (noch)
Standard hebbt. För 't Schottsche gifft 't t.B. "Edinbury", "Embra" un
"Embro" för de sülvige Stadt.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/5ae7fa6c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 07:28:27 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:28:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.232827.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (04) [E]

 Ragin is also contained in names like Reinhold, Reginald, Reinaldo,
Rainaud, Rainier, René, Rainer, Ragnar, etc.

Ron, I thought Rene / René came from reborn as in the reborn Christ?
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

And you seem to be right, Ben. Thanks for watching. I checked several lists
on- and off-line. A few claim the alleged connections, but others, more
"serious" ones, side with you, saying that "René" comes from Latin "Renatus"
meaning "reborn (one)".

By the way, does the following tally with your knowledge of your name,
provided it is Benjamin?

Source: Hebrew בִנְיָמִין (*binyâmiyn*)

It is popularly understood to mean "son of the south". But in the Samaritan
Pentateuch it consistently appears as בן ימים (or rather the equivalent in
Samaritan characters -- http://www.omniglot.com/writing/samaritan.htm). This
seems to stand for *bên yâmiym* "son of days", thought to be Jacob's
reference to his own old age when his last son was born.

Incidentally, German and Low Saxon have *Benjamin *(the "j" pronounced as
"y") as a noun as well, meaning "youngest son."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/88803120/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 16:37:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:37:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.19 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.NOV.2007.083747.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (06) [E]

 I'm not Benjamin. I'm Ben. My mom just liked the sound of Ben J. Bloomgren.
Ben

----------

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (06) [E]

  Ron stated that "Benjamin"
>


>  is popularly understood to mean "son of the south". But in the Samaritan
> Pentateuch it consistently appears as בן ימים (or rather the equivalent in
> Samaritan characters -- http://www.omniglot.com/writing/samaritan.htm).
> This seems to stand for *bên yâmiym* "son of days", thought to be Jacob's
> reference to his own old age when his last son was born.
>
> Incidentally, German and Low Saxon have *Benjamin *(the "j" pronounced as
> "y") as a noun as well, meaning "youngest son.
>

As far as I know, wherever Spanish is spoken, but certainly in Puerto Rico,
"el Benjamín de la familia" is the youngest son.
Of course the "j" is a rough "h".

Jorge Potter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071119/23a78197/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 16:54:03 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:54:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.19 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.NOV.2007.085403.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (09) [E]

Ron wrote:

"Linguistic terms are usually Latin-derived while most health-care terms are
Greek-derived."

Sorry, but I like the Greek one better.  I mean, if you want to sound truly
learned, Greek takes the cake.  (By the way, where does "taking the cake"
come from?)  Metharmchariterpnotize has a certain unpronounceable caché that
can really one-up someone.

Then, there's always that lovely word "metathesis."  Does it come from
Greek?

Regards,

Mark Brooks
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Yes, Mark. "Methathesis" comes from Greek *μετάθεσις metáthesis* < *μετα**-
**meta-* 'with', 'after', 'between' (from the same origin as the Germanic
"mid" group) + *θέσισ thésis* 'putting', 'placing'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071119/df7de923/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 18:10:14 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:10:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.19 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.19.NOV.2007.101014.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.16 (07) [E/LS/German]

Marcus schreev,
> Tüdelkraam dat. Lütjensee is hoochdüütsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn
> vun
> af. Dat de Naam ut dat Plattdüütsche stammt ännert dor nix an.
>
Dear Marcus (and Heiko), I (and I suppose also Jonny) didn't want to offend
you. But for me (and probably also for Jonny) the thing is quite crazy.

You say, "lütje-" is High-German, because it's used in High-German context
etc. The fact that its origin is Low German doesn't change that. Ok, yes I
know these arguments, that minorities have to kind of regain their
topographic names (which were sort of stolen by the majority languages) by
creating their own versions, proper versions of the names.

Ok, alright, but nevertheless for me it seems that "lütje-" is more unique
than "lütten-".

It is this small "-je" or "-tje", you now, an additional diminutive, quite
an unique thing in LG/LS. We don't have that in Standard German, not at all,
never heard of "kleinlein", "kleinchen" or so. So Lütjensee is
"Klein-Kleinsee", Lüttensee is only "Kleinsee". That's a loss, isn't it?

The "je" or "tje" diminutive seem to me a rare thing in LS, I suppose a
Nederlandism (or Low-Franconism) and/or Ripoarism, so in any case a
Franconism.

(In Allemannic varieties there is "klele", that would be "kleinlein" in
Standard German. Maybe in central German dialects there is something like
"klein[s]chen" or "lüt[s]chen".  Ripuarian has "-je", besides "-che" and
"-elche": , see: http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminutiv . But most
frequently we find "-je", "-tje" etc. in Low-Franconian/Dutch!)

Why must this unique Nederlandism in "Lütjensee" be aborted for a alegdedly
proper version i.e. "Lüttensee" with the argument it's a Germanism? That
doesn't fit to the Lowlands approach of this list!

Un wenn
> de Oort nu op Platt hüdigendaags Lüttensee heet, denn schall disse Naam
> ünnerdükert warrn, denn he is ja man blot een Bookstaven wied weg vun
> dat Hoochdüütsche?
> not distinct enough to coexist, oder wat?

Ok, you say you want to make LG/LS visible. Ok, ok. But there is also one
thing you can't deny: The names are that close, that most people would get
the picture, that LG an HG are nearly the same. Do you want this kind of
visibility that will provoke people saying: "Also Plattdeutsch ist halt eben
doch nur ein Dialekt und keine eigene Sprache!"

You mentioned the article:
http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2007/11/07/813579.html

So it should be: (Bad) Oldesloe/Oschloe/Oslo/Olslo/Olschlo

Regards
Karl-Heinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Karl-Heinz,

This is not about what is "more unique." It's about a consistently
implemented regional program and about public reclamation or "re-owning" of
regional heritage.

You can't pick out one or two examples and on that basis dismiss the entire
program and the general intent. "Lüttjensee" is *not* the same as
"Lüttensee" (apart from the fact that in the latter "-see" is pronounced not
as in German but like English "zay"), and it's not about which one you find
nicer or "more unique." "Close enough" doesn't equal "the same," nor does it
make one override the other, nor does it say anything about the status of
the languages involved. If people decide on the basis of this one example
that we're not dealing with two languages, well, then they aren't exactly
open-minded and what you call "deep thinkers," are they? I don't think we
need to worry about them. It's like arriving in Aragon, Spain, seeing a sign
with the place names "Benabarre - Benavarri - Benabarri" and on this basis
declare that Castilian, Catalan and Aranese Occitan are really just dialects
of the same language and that displaying them all on signs is a waste of
time and money. Or you could go to Scotland, see (if you could) a sign with
"Aberdeen - Aiberdeen - Obar Dheathain" and decide that Scots (in second
place here) should have been omitted. Or you could go to Carinthia (*
Kärnten/Koroška*) in Austria and make a similar pronouncement about
Slovenian *Podgrad* appearing next to "German" *Pugrad* on the sign at the
village entrance. (Those guys that have been removing bilingual signs in the
area would be happy about that.)

To be sure, the vast majority of North German place names is derived from
Low Saxon. Most of the names are mixtures of translations and "phonetic"
adaptations of past times. Especially in the translation department, there
are numerous errors based on misunderstandings, as Jonny has pointed out on
several occasions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071119/6c1c5136/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 20 14:34:50 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:34:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.063450.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.19 (02) [E]

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (09) [E]
Sorry, but I like the Greek one better.  I mean, if you want to sound truly
learned, Greek takes the cake.  .....Then, there's always that lovely word
"metathesis."  Does it come from Greek?
Regards,
Mark Brooks
----------

My feeling is that this worship of Classical speech has watered down English
from the strong Lowlands Germanic it once was.  The belief that you have to
use such words ("big words") to seem wise is a blow to our forbears.  Read
Winston Churchill's "fight them on the beaches" speech to see what strength
lies in true Lowlands English.

That I write and say such Greekish and Latinish myself doesn't make it
otherwise (You'll see I've tried not to here).

I'd rather light a fire than ignite a conflagration, or precipitate
pyrotechnics.

Paul Finlow-Bates

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/59f60768/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 20 16:42:25 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:42:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.084225.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (01) [E]

Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:  "The belief that you have to use such words ("big
words") to seem wise is a blow to our forbears."

Paul, I go along with you fully (agree completely).  I wanted what I wrote
to have a "tongue in cheek" feel to it.

At my job I write stuff to teach our new workers with.  I like to stay away
from "Latinate" words, but I must say that I find it hard to do.  Working in
a big outfit for the folks of Texas, makes for a lot of words that do seem
too stretched out.  But, I guess it just what goes with the job.  ;-)

Mark Brooks

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Paul, I take it you are aware that what Mark, Sandy and I wrote about
terminology was really a spoof on the gratuitous invention and use of jargon
that is at least partly designed to dazzle, mystify and exclude people of
"inferior" formal education.

Linguistics' tradition is by no means immune to this. This is not only
because the discipline grew out of classics-based philology but also because
any field of study that wants to be accepted and taken seriously as an
academic discipline needs to take on the trappings of established and
respected fields, especially in the form of already existing jargon. This
seems to be especially so in the "soft sciences" that tend to be looked down
upon by people in the "hard sciences" or "real sciences."

Furthermore, I take it you pointed at the gratuitous use of non-German
words, the "big words," as you called them. Avoiding the use of Latinate
words (especially) in Modern English is impossible, since the language is
deeply imbued with and now dependent on them, especially as far as Norman
French influences are concerned. Native speakers don't even recognize most
of these words as being Latinate, and in many cases (such as "air", "carry",
"duty", "defend", "example", "moment", "part", "point") there are no
alternatives or only awkward-sounding ones, as in Churchill's said speech,
the last part serving as an example:

I have, myself, full *confidence* that if all do their *duty*, if nothing is
*neglected*, and if the best *arrangements* are made, as they are being
made, we shall prove ourselves once again *able* to *defend* our Island
home, to ride out the storm of *war*, and to outlive the *menace* of *
tyranny*, if *necessary* for years, if *necessary* alone. At any *rate*,
that is what we are going to *try* to do. That is the *resolve* of His *
Majesty's* *Government*-every man of them. That is the will of
*Parliament*and the
*nation*. The British *Empire* and the French *Republic*, linked together in
their *cause* and in their need, will *defend* to the death their *native* *
soil*, *aiding* each other like good *comrades* to the utmost of their
strength. Even though *large* *tracts* of Europe and many old and *famous* *
States* have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the *
odious* *apparatus* of Nazi *rule*, we shall not *flag* or *fail*. We shall
go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and *
oceans*, we shall fight with growing *confidence* and growing strength in
the *air*, we shall *defend* our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall
fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight
in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall
never *surrender*, and even if, which I do not for a *moment* believe, this
Island or a *large* *part* of it were *subjugated* and starving, then our *
Empire* beyond the seas, *armed* and *guarded* by the British Fleet, would *
carry* on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all
its *power* and might, steps forth to the *rescue* and the *liberation* of
the old.

Unfortunately, the dividing line between "ordinary words" and "big words" is
a blurry one. People's perception of what is one and what is the other
depends on their formal education, the company they keep, the literature
they read, and so forth. The other day I responded to someone's plea for
advice. I thought I talked in a very ordinary, everyday way, avoiding what I
thought were big words. The response came with a smile, "OK. Whatever it is
you just said." It made me feel bad, because I had not meant to talk above
her head and at the same time I avoid jumping to conclusions about people
and end up talking down to them and thus possibly coming across as
patronizing and insulting.

So perhaps things aren't really as simple as "native or not native" where
"native" includes "nativized" (i.e., of foreign origin but now perceived
native). Perhaps there is a multi-stage process in which foreign-derived
words gradually move toward full nativization. I am pretty sure that many
foreign-derived words most or all of us now perceive as being ordinary where
not so ordinary to past generations.

I also believe that similar things happened with Scandinavian loans and with
Celtic loans before that. In many cases the native English equivalents
disappeared, at least from today's mainstream language. An example is Old
English *micel* which survices only in some dialects and in Scots, apart
from the related word "much". "Big" is believed to be a Scandinavian loan.
Old English has *mara* 'very big/large' which I assume is of Celtic origin.
And "large" is of course of Old French origin, "stout" of Dutch origin.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/588f8233/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 20 17:32:25 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:32:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.093225.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Beste Paul,

You wrote:
> My feeling is that this worship of Classical speech has watered down
> English from the strong Lowlands Germanic it once was. The belief that
> you have to use such words ("big words") to seem wise is a blow to our
> forbears. Read Winston Churchill's "fight them on the beaches" speech
> to see what strength lies in true Lowlands English.
> That I write and say such Greekish and Latinish myself doesn't make it
> otherwise (You'll see I've tried not to here).
> I'd rather light a fire than ignite a conflagration, or precipitate
> pyrotechnics.

Of course you're right...but still...you did turn on your "(com)puter"
or "machine" in order to read all this, didn't you?

Aah Mister Churchill! The chap loved a good fight now and then it seems.
Pretty logical since his opponent was a little too keen on purifying the
Germanic "race", whereas Winston was definitely much more civilized and
courteous and merely wanted to cleanse the English language, getting rid
of those foreign, exotic terms. All in all, they were both hung up on
purification (sorry for this "nicht bodenständiges" word).
Sign of the times?

In my view, acceptance of loanwords, doesn't immediately diminish the
value of native words. It's not as if they want to rule each other out
as soon as possible. New words will usually be bent and shaped till they
fit (and vice versa, forces work both ways). Many of those newcomers
will soon vanish, no problem with that, and the ones that are able to
stay for a thousand years or so will eventually prove that there's a
niche in that vocabulary. But you have to give that exogenous :-D
material a chance I think, no need for knee-jerk reactions. Don't worry,
our ancestors have done just the same when (technical) innovations swept
their world and eventually stuck around.

I do understand though that if phonetically a loanword is very hard to
pronounce for the receiving language, the latter may resort to
using/creating a native term, like 电脑 (diànnǎo) for computer in Chinese.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Luc.

Here's just a footnote for the edification of everyone.

电脑 (traditional 電腦) Standard Mandarin *diànnǎo, l*iterally "electro-brain".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/0aecbc34/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 20 17:44:40 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:44:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.094440.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

I take it the relative quiet around here is due to our Lowlanders in and
from the USA traveling and preparing for the most important holiday they
have in common, with the exception of most indigenous people.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! The travel craziness has begun. So be careful
out there!

Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/12c822db/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 03:35:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:35:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.193508.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (04) [E]

 Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! The travel craziness has begun. So be careful
out there!
No birds for me! Mexico does nothing for thanksgiving. Today is my birthday
too, 11/20. I'm an old bird now, as I'll hit 26 tonight at 21:36 GMT-7.
This'll be my first Thanksgiving away from home, and none of us are taking
it well.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Oh, poor, "old" Binners! Well, if it's any consolation, holidays away from
one's family are character-building, promoting personal growth.

Happy birthday, Ben! Don't be sad. I for one am thinking of you.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/44b2d83c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 19:58:06 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:58:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.115806.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  21 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (02) [E]

Ron, Mark and all;
I realised there was a tongue-in-cheek element. I also know it is impossible
to separate non-Germanic (I include Norse) absolutely - my example took
several tries, and sounds rather contrived.

On another site I belong to, a member is trying to promote what he calls
"Ednew English", and several have tried similar things in the past.  A few
alternatives  ("linkstrand" for "isthmus") are great, many sound plain
silly. The 19th C suggestion of "folkswain" for "omnibus" made sense, but
everybody says "bus" these days anyway.

But I still believe that in most cases, you clear the fog if you keep it
Anglo-Norse wherever you can.  Of course for many people clearing the fog is
the last thing they want, and over-latinising is very much the hallmark of
the lawyer and the politician for that very reason!

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Paul.

The use of jargon for the purpose of exclusion is very common practice the
world round, going far beyond the use of Latin and Greek. Among the most
extreme examples are the development of what amounts to separate languages
for the priest (or shaman) class, for initiated men, and separate languages
for men and women of the same group in addition to a common language.

The cases you mentioned are just not as extreme and clearcut in that
separation is "softer": "You get access if you're educated enough." Also,
the individual speaker cannot be accused of having instigated this since he
or she merely follows a guild tradition that was developed over quite some
time and has its roots in the use of Latin as an international lingua franca
of the learned. It is the *deliberate *use of less common Latin-based
choices in addressing the general public where things become "interesting."

There are or were other such guild languages in European cultures, for
instance terminologies of artisan's guilds that you could only fully acquire
through apprenticeship to the degree of journeyman. Such terminologies tend
to be native-based rather than foreign-based.

And then there are the so-called "jargons" of the social periphery, people
that are excluded or exclude themselves from mainstream society. However, as
I see it, here one must be careful to differentiate between the use of
jargon for deliberate exclusion from the use of "jargon" of necessity or
convenience. A case of deliberate exclusion is, I believe, Rotwelsch ("gang
gobbledigook"), a German-based "underworld" jargon peppered mainly with
words from Romance languages, Romany and Yiddish, most of them with a twist
or two so even speakers of the donor languages can't understand them.
(Rotwelsch is now extinct, but many imported terms are now well established
in German.) Another such case may be Traveller's Cant. In my opinion, cases
such as Polari and the earliest versions of Jewish languages represent the
other extreme, cases of necessity. Polari began as a type of international
pidgin once used among theater and circus people, originally fringe
societies of international origin, and the transition to Polari as a Gay
jargon developed from that. Beginnings of Jewish languages as jargons arose
from the need to augment the lexicons of the mainstream languages to
accommodate Jewish belief, philosophy and traditions for "inside use." The
transition from jargon to language is mostly due to isolation (including
relocation) at later points in time (Judeo-German > Yiddish, Judeo-Italian >
Italkian, Judeo-Portuguese > Lusitanic, Judeo-Spanish > Ladino,
Judeo-Catalan > Catalanic, Judeo-Provençal > Shuadit, Judeo-French >
Zarphatic, Judeo-Czech > Knaanic, Judeo-Greek > Yevanic, Judeo-Georgian >
Gruzinic, Judeo-Farsi > Dzhidi etc., Judeo-Tajik > Bukhori, Judeo-Kushitic >
Kayla, and so forth). Some of them remain jargons in that they don't develop
their own structure, such as English-based Yinglish, Yeshivish and what you
might call "General Judeo-English." A couple of my Jewish friends began to
use the last of these with me once they knew I understand the terminology
and the culture behind it, and thus they don't need to explain or
paraphrase. The same goes for Muslim friends and their use of Arabic-derived
terminology. So in my opinion there is no intent to exclude others.

I am glad we agree that a lot of Latinate English words are so established
and generally understood that there is no need and no way to avoid them. It
is when people attempt to replace these that things become a bit silly in my
opinion. It tends to give Germans a bad taste in the mouth, because during
the Nazi period there was just such a campaign to "purify" German, and many
of the proposals are highly amusing (in large part due to ignorance) if they
weren't so preposterous and the philosophy behind it so sinister.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/e3e2329d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 22:22:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:22:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.21 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.142233.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Folks,

Our list server is misbehaving today, and I don't know if the naughty thing
will snap out of it before the end of the (very) Thanksgiving weekend (which
begins tomorrow). Messages are getting through in irregular intervals. I
have already alerted our good hosts at LINGUIST to it.

At any rate, please be understanding and patient. Also please keep copies of
your posting submissions just in case they fall through the cracks.

I will let you know when we are fully back in business.

Thanks.
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/1138c1ad/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 22:24:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:24:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.21 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.142407.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (05) [E]

Ben van harte fielseteerd en daj en nog hiel veule jaoren der bij.

Arend Victorie

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/323876e9/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 00:48:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:48:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.164826.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (01) [E]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (02) [E]
>
> On another site I belong to, a member is trying to promote what he
> calls "Ednew English", and several have tried similar things in the
> past.  A few alternatives  ("linkstrand" for "isthmus") are great,
> many sound plain silly. The 19th C suggestion of "folkswain" for
> "omnibus" made sense, but everybody says "bus" these days anyway.
>
> But I still believe that in most cases, you clear the fog if you keep
> it Anglo-Norse wherever you can.  Of course for many people clearing
> the fog is the last thing they want, and over-latinising is very much
> the hallmark of the lawyer and the politician for that very reason!

OK, having just come home from a psychology course where my
communication support worker was tearing her hair out trying to put
phrases like "sociotropic depresogenic schemata" into BSL, and therefore
agreeing that long words can be used in a most obfuscatory fashion at
times, especially for those who aren't au fait with the subject matter,
I would still say that it's a myth that "saxonised" English is clearer
than English with the usual dosage of latinate vocabulary.

It may be obscuring your meaning to say "I rescued a homo sapiens from
the conflagration", rather than "I saved someone from the fire", but
nevertheless, "rescue", "homo sapiens" and "conflagration" don't mean
quite the same thing as "save", "someone" and "fire". In a different
context you might well need to say "homo sapiens" for the sake of
clarity, since "someone" cpuld easily be taken to cover Neanderthals, "I
saved my money" isn't the same thing as "I rescued my money", and a
conflagration is much more than a fire.

It's a mistake to think clarity can be achieved by prescribing
vocabulary against the grain of common usage, and it's a mistake to
think that you have a choice between Saxon and Latin in English: the
best choice for good English (or good any language) is the mot juste.

I think that what gives the people the impression that latinate
vocabulary in English is unclear is that people often use it to obscure
their meaning (sometimes only from people outside their circle), but it
doesn't follow that making your meaning clear involves choosing
anglo-saxon words wherever possible: it involves choosing the best
English words for the occasion, and that includes both kinds of
vocabulary.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (01) [E]

Reinhard schreef:
And then there are the so-called "jargons" of the social periphery, people
that are excluded or exclude themselves from mainstream society. However,
as I see it, here one must be careful to differentiate between the use of
jargon for deliberate exclusion from the use of "jargon" of necessity or
convenience. A case of deliberate exclusion is, I believe, Rotwelsch ("gang
gobbledigook"), a German-based "underworld" jargon peppered mainly with
words from Romance languages, Romany and Yiddish, most of them with a twist
or two so even speakers of the donor languages can't understand them.
(Rotwelsch is now extinct, but many imported terms are now well established
in German.)

In the Netherlands, especially Amsterdam, "Bargoens" is more or less
comparable with Rotwelsch in Germany. It was also called "dieventaal" in
the past, the language of thieves, and has a lot of corrupted Yiddish
derived stuff in it, that are now common in colloquial Dutch (e.g. porem =
face, stiekem = sneaky, jajem = gin), and some "Gipsy" words as well (e.g.
bink = guy, joekel = dog). The name "Bargoens" is said to be from two
Breton words, bar + gwyn = bread and wine...

Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Ingmar!

I wonder if there are overlaps between Bargoens and Rotwelsch.

Also, quite a few Rotwelsch words ended up in Low Saxon of Germany. I'm not
sure if any of them were adopted directly, i.e., not via German.

Off the top of my head I can think of the following:

   - *Bock* 'desire', 'craving' < Romani *bokh* 'hunger'
   - *dufte* 'nice', 'great' < Yiddish טובֿ *tof* < Hebrew טוב *tov*'good'
   - *Kaff* 'village/town at the back of beyond' < Yiddish כפֿר *kafer *<
   Hebrew כפר *kafar *'village'
   - *Knast* 'jail time', 'jail', 'prison' < Yiddish כנס *knas* '(money)
   fine' < Hebrew כנס *qanas *'to punish'
   - *meschugge* 'crazy' < Yiddish משוגע *meshuge* < Hebrew משוגע *
   m'šuga'* 'crazy'
   - *mies* : 'bad', 'inferior' < Yiddish מיאוס *mis* < Hebrew מיאוס *
   miy'uws* 'loathsome', 'disgusting'
   - *Mischpoche* ~ *Mischpoke* 'family' (derogatory), 'bunch of
   low-lives' < Yiddish משפּחה *mishpakha *< Hebrew משפּחה *mi**šp**â**h*
   *â**h* 'family', 'clan'
   - *schofel* : 'impolite', 'rude' < Yiddish שפֿל *shofl *< Hebrew שפל *
   šâpal* 'inferior'
   - *vermasseln* 'spoil' < Yiddish מזל *mazl *< Hebrew מזל *mazal *
   'luck'

By the way, some derive the *Rot-* part of the name from Romany *rat* ~ *rot
* 'wrong', 'deceptive'.

There are, or better used to be, many types of Rotwelsch and jargons related
to it, e.g.,

   - Buttjersprache of Minden on the Weser at the edge of Germany's
   southwestern Low Saxon area (mostly Romani- but indirectly also
   Yiddish-influenced Missingsch! e.g., *latscho* 'good' < Romani *ladzho
   * 'good'; *Universität* 'prison'; *Kaum haste den jadjedi inne feme un
   denkst, nu kommste ans Schickern, da schallert der dich noch 'ne Strophe!
   * = German: *Kaum hast du den Schnaps in der Hand und denkst: jetzt
   fängt das Trinken an, da singt der noch 'ne Strophe* = 'You've hardly
   got the drink in your hand and think the round of drinking starts when that
   guy sings yet another verse.')
   - Jenisch (Yeniche) in Southern Germany, Switzerland and Austria
   (mostly Romani-influenced)
   - Kochum of Hundshagen in Thuringia, Germany (mostly
   Romani-influenced)
   - Lotegorisch (< Yiddish לשון־קודש *loshn koydesh* < Hebrew* *לשון־קודש
   *la**šown-qowde**š* 'sacred language' = 'Hebrew') of Germany's
   Palatinate (mostly West-Yiddish-influenced)
   - Manisch of the German towns of Gießen, Marburg and Wetzlar (mostly
   Romani-influenced)
   - Masematte of Münster, Westphalia, Germany (mostly Low Saxon with
   Western Yiddish!)

Bargoens:

   - *bink* 'guy' < Romani *beng* 'devil', 'policeman'?
   - *jajem *'gin' < Yiddish יין *yayin *< Hebrew יין *yayin *'wine'?
   - *joekel* 'dog' < Romany *yukkal* ~ *yukkal* 'dog' (cf. English
   "jackal" < Turkish *çakal* < Persian شغال *š**ağ**â**l* = Bengali
   শৃগাল *śrakāl*, Hindi श्रगाल *śragāl*, Sanskrit शृगाल* śr̥gāla*)
   - *porem* 'face' < Yiddish פּנים *ponem* < Hebrew פּנים *p**â**nim*'face'?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/d576c59c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 20:00:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:00:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.21 (02) [LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.120008.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  21 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (05) [E]

Ben van harte fielseteerd en daj en nog hiel veule jaoren der bij.

Arend Victorie

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/e32e1684/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 06:37:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:37:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.21 (05) [LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.223742.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.20 (08) [LS/G]

Den 17.11.2007 schraiv Marcus Buck:

> Lütjensee is hoochdüütsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn vun
> af. Dat de Naam ut dat Plattdüütsche stammt ännert dor nix an.

Ney, ney, eerbare Marcus unde alle:

"Lütjensee" *is* platt, un was syd Jarhunnerde goudet sassisk.
"Lütjen" is eyn anner (auk oustfreysk?) utsprauk van "lütk",
"lütken". Un dat is dat echte LS ward for ing. small, little (sic!).

Middelsassisk achter Mittelniederdeutsches Handwörterbuch van August
Lübben:

luttik, klein, gering, wenig
(auk: lutgut, luttink, -ing)

Un "lutgut" wörde vandage t. b. in't westfäölske "lüttchuet" o. ä.
segget.

Dey eerste orkundlike tügnisse van dat dorp Lütjensee is van anno
domini 1248! Un dartomaulen hewwet dey lüde wisse nich haugdütsk
snackt, ofte?

> Un wenn
> de Oort nu op Platt hüdigendaags Lüttensee heet, denn schall disse
> Naam
> ünnerdükert warrn

Dey heyt men nich "Lüttensee", sünder "Lütjensee", as jümmer.

"Lütten" is men eyn tiämlik affschliepen platt, (ümme nich to seggen
"Pidgin Platt") men dat, wat de Fehrs-Gilde as alleyn-siäligmakend
Plattdüütsch utgifft.

Dat is, as wenn du unner "Kattenvenne" (sau heyt dey stade aljümmer
amtlik) nu "Kattenwende" schrywen wördst, wyldat "Venne" nich in'n
SASS steyt... (ofte unner "Jeggen" - as dat duarp by Ossenbrügge in
gouden aulden platt vandage no heyt - nu "Jagen" ofte "Jogen").

> Wenn ik op Hoochdüütsch 'Browser' seggen do, denn is dat
> keen engelsch Woort, denn is dat en hoochdüütsch Woort, dat ut dat
> Engelsche övernahmen is.

Jau, men eyn kon je auk "brausker" ("ruhmrediger Polterer") darto
seggen, denn is dat plattdütsk.;-)

Men in ärenst: wenn du "lütje" ingiffst by

http://www.deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/wsuchen.php

denn kriggst du utgiewen:

lüttjet, lüttjen, un: Lüttjepüttje!

Dat is je wal eyn wyd-bekanndet vertellsel-jüngeken in't Sleswiger un/
of Holsteyner Platt!

Un dar meyn ik, dat is eyn bietken engsichtig un for dat plattdütske
roup-schädlik, wenn eyn darup bestaun wörde, dat sey pattu auk no de
verkrüömelten of verkrüölpeden Namen "Lüttensee" unner dat schöyne
"Lütjensee" schrywen süelen.

Goudgaun!
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Leyve Joachim,

Marcus syn beduyden was dat dey *naam* "Lüttjensee" -- oevernamen vun 't
Neddersassische in öldere tyden -- nu eyn Hoogduytschen naam is, jüst as t.b.
"Istanbul" -- oevernamen vun Törksch *İstanbul* -- eyn Hoogduytschen naam is
un keyn Törkschen wen hey in 't Hoogduytsche bruukt wardt. Wat dey oursprung
vun dey naams is, dat is 'n heyl annern snak.

In d'n Neddersassischen dialekt vun Stormarn heytt dey stad vundagigendaags
"Lüttensey" (Lüttensee). "Lüttjensee" is histoorsch un, as ik al seed', nu
man bloots dey Hoogduytsche naam. Welken vun jüm Dy or annere luyd' meyr
tou-segd, dat is in düsse saak vun keyn belang. Dey daadsaak is un blivt,
dat "Lüttjensee" nu Hoogduytsch un "Lüttensee" Nedderduytsch
(Neddersassisch) is.

Wat wy hyr vun snakken dout, dat noymt sik *nativization*, dat invoyren vun
eyn wourd or naam as dey spraak eer eygen.

Dey stad Köln t.b. heytt *Colonia Agrippina* up Latynsch, kort *Colonia*, un
dat was dey eyrste naam. Schullen wy seggen dat is dey betere naam un dat
daarwegen ook Italieensch un Spaansch *Colonia*, Veneciaansch *Cołonia*,
Portugeessch *Colónia*, Katalaansch *Colònia*, Baskisch un Poolsch *Kolonia*,
un Fransch un Ingelsch *Cologne* altouhoup beter sünd? Or schullen wy
seggen, dat man bloots "Köln" rejaal is, wyl dat dat 'n Duytsche stad is?
Tjer, dey orginale spraak is daar dat Ripuaarsche vun Köln (*Kölsch*), un
daar, as ook in 't Limborgsche, heytt dat *Kölle* wat vun **Köllen* af-keym,
in 't Nedderlandsche un Afrikaans *Keulen* (Kölen), wat ook neyger is.

Dey daadsaak is dat al dey spraken eyren eygenen naam vör dey stad hebt, un
wouneem dey vun af-keym, dat is eyndound. Aserbaydschaansch, Bosnisch,
Eestnisch, Finnsch, Indoneessch, Rumeensch, Sweedsch, Ungaarsch, Törksch un
Yslandsch hebt ook den naam *Köln** v*ör dey stad. Keym dat vun 't Duytsche
af? Ja. Is dat 'n Duytschen naam in dey daar spraken. Nee!

Kumpelmenten,
Rein hard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/4db5b989/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 19:48:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:48:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.114835.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (04) [E]

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (01) [E]


"It's a mistake to think clarity can be achieved by prescribing
vocabulary against the grain of common usage, and it's a mistake to
think that you have a choice between Saxon and Latin in English: the
best choice for good English (or good any language) is the mot juste."


Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

Hi Sandy,

I sort of two-thirds agree. The danger with English being "over-classical"
is the belief that such words are somehow naturally better. This is an
affliction that I find affects non-native learners, especially those from
Africa and SE Asia; There is clearly a taught idea that "excavate" is good
English whereas "dig" is somehow "low class" or uneducated.

And this leads back to a favourite bee in my bonnet; England has largely
lost English, in a way that Scotland hasn't lost Scots or the Netherlands,
Dutch.  We have no national language in the same sense, only dialects that
are pretty well the exclusive property of the local users.

Paul

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/c8790800/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 19:50:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:50:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.22 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.115031.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.21 (05) [LS]

 Joachim schrieb:

Den 17.11.2007 schraiv Marcus Buck:

> Lütjensee is hoochdüütsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn vun
> af. Dat de Naam ut dat Plattdüütsche stammt ännert dor nix an.

Ney, ney, eerbare Marcus unde alle:

"Lütjensee" *is* platt, un was syd Jarhunnerde goudet sassisk.
"Lütjen" is eyn anner (auk oustfreysk?) utsprauk van "lütk",
"lütken". Un dat is dat echte LS ward for ing. small, little (sic!).

Natürlich hat er Recht. Südlich von Hannover heißt es "lütjen", nicht
"lütten" wie im Küstenplatt. Auch in Ortsnamen wie z. B. Lütgenrode oder
Lütjen Barkel (hochdeutsch: Klein Berkel). Es gibt eben kein einheitliches
"Niedersächsisch", und nicht alles, was dem eigenen Dialekt nicht
entspricht, ist deshalb gleich Hochdeutsch!

Gabriele Kahn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/8fb391ac/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 19:53:09 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:53:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.115309.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (04) [E]

Beste Ron, Jacqueline en allemaal,
Bargoens (dieventaal) komt van Bourgondisch. In West-Vlaanderen klonk het
steeds als Borgoens en in Brugge is er in de Wollestraat een restaurant "Het
Bourgoensch Hof".
Vlaanderen hoorde in de late middeleeuwen tot Bourgondië en er werd dan ook
wel wat toendertijds Frans gehoord. Deze door het volk niet altijd begrepen
taal was Borgoens!
Amsterdam wordt vermeld als de stad van veel Bargoens.
In Oost-Vlaanderen was hiervoor gekend Zele (er bestaat een Bargoens
woordenboek van het Zeels) en in West-Vlaanderen Roeselare. In deze laatste
stad werd Bargoens gesproken door een aantal families van leurders en
straatventers. De kopers mochten hen niet altijd begrijpen. Enkele
voorbeelden: peeuwen = handen; bing = kerel, jongen, man; een ei klutsen =
een sigaret roken; een pafferik = sigaret; in het Zeels bijvoorbeeld wilde
men het niet dat anderen begrepen dat men over zichzelf praatte, er werd dan
ook niet gezegd "ik zal", maar "michel zal" (miechel).
Een voorbeeld van "algemeen Nederlands" Bargoens: poen = geld.
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/8b0fad10/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 22:03:59 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:03:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.140359.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

Those of you that can't follow messages in Low Saxon and German but once in
a while get to see a snippet about it in English must be wondering what this
thread is about.

It began with a report (by Heiko, I believe) about the a program of creating
bilingual place name signs in the district of Stormarn in Germany's state of
Schleswig-Holstein. Jonny characterized this program as frivolous and
financially extravagant and argued that a few of the German and Low Saxon
names are very similar to each other, making this a silly exercise. Heiko,
on the other hand, reminded us that this is a regional program and that
picking out one or two seemingly "weak" examples to discredit it is not
fair, and he also pointed out that the estimated costs have been blown out
of all proportion and thrown out there as a red herring together with
scaremongering about evil language engineering intents by those that oppose
the effort. He further explained that a lot of research had gone into
determining the respective names in the local Low Saxon dialects. It is also
clear from this that this program has nothing to do with language planning,
which makes references to anything like "Standard Low Saxon" agendas quite
irrelevant.

The apparently "weakest" case that opponents to the program hung their hats
on was that of a place called "Lüttjensee" (["lYtj at nze:]) in German and
"Lüttensee" (["lYtnzEI]) in the local Low Saxon dialect. The idea seems to
have been that "Lüttjensee" *is* Low Saxon and is better or more original
than "Lüttensee". Marcus explained that "Lüttjensee" is *not* today's Low
Saxon name but "Lüttensee" is, that "Lüttjensee" is in fact today's
*German*name for the place. This was followed by objections saying
that
*lüttje *is indeed Low Saxon, can be found in various dialects throughout
Northern Germany, and a couple of those that wrote these objections said
they preferred it. Getting the feeling that Marcus' argument had not been
understood for conceptual reasons, I sided with Marcus' argument and
explained the concept that by importing a name or word a language makes it
its own. In other words, "Lüttjensee," even though of older Low Saxon
origin, is in fact a ("High") German name, while the Low Saxon name changed
and nowadays is "Lüttensee." In yet other words, the fact that the German
name is of Low Saxon origin does not change the fact that it is a German
name, and the respective names in the respective languages are free to take
on lives of their own (which happened in the case of Low Saxon).
Furthermore, I argued that people preferring "Lüttjensee" does not make it
Low Saxon *now*.

Let's take a couple of other examples for those that are still conceptually
challenged.

"Toronto" is an English name. Yes, it was derived from Mohawk
*Ateronto *("place
with fish weirs"). So the name "Toronto" is an English name of Mohawk
origin. Is it a Mohawk name? No! It is an *English* name.

"Milan" is an English name for a city in Italy. It goes back to Latin *
Mediolanum*. The Italian version is *Milano*. English is likely to have
imported the name from French *Milan* ([mi"lA~]), directly or indirectly
(cf. Western Lombard *Milan *[mi"lan]). So, when you say "Milan" while
speaking English, are you in fact using a French or Lombard name? No! You
are using an *English* name. The fact that it is of French and/or Lombard
origin does not change this. Theoretically, over time the name could have
changed in all of the languages involved.In many cases this does happen, and
this shows you that the versions in the different language varieties are
independent from each other.

To summarize the universally accepted concept underlying Marcus' and my
argument:

   - A word or name imported from language A to language B, though within
   a historical context a loanword, becomes a word or name in its own right in
   language B. The average speaker does not care what its origin is.
   ("Nativization")
   - After adoption in language B, the word or name may take on a life of
   its own, and the original word or name in language A (the donor language)
   may also develop independently. In other words, we have two languages and
   two words or names, even though the latter are of the same origin.
   - The recipient language (here language B) may be more conservative
   and retain the word or name as it was at the time of importation, and the
   donor language (here language A) may be less conservative and change the
   corresponding word or name. Is one "better" or "more correct" than the
   other, for instance because it is "more original" or "more unique" (*
   sic.*)? No! Such information is only relevant in diachronic,
   etymological contexts. In a synchronic context (i.e., how the
   different language varieties are *at this point in time or at another
   specific point in time*) this is totally irrelevant; we are dealing
   with separate words or names in separate language varieties. Equally
   irrelevant are personal likes and dislikes.

It is very common for people that don't understand these concepts to mix up
historical and contemporary (or diachronic and synchronic) aspects in their
arguments, and the end result is that people talk past each other.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
*

***
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/61f83123/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 23:31:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:31:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.153142.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.22 (01) [E]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (04) [E]

> Hi Sandy,
>
> I sort of two-thirds agree. The danger with English being
> "over-classical" is the belief that such words are somehow naturally
> better. This is an affliction that I find affects non-native learners,
> especially those from Africa and SE Asia; There is clearly a taught
> idea that "excavate" is good English whereas "dig" is somehow "low
> class" or uneducated.

Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig" from the
language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is impoverished.
Worse still, non-native learners might still stick with "excavate" and
so on, and the language starts to split into different varieties in
which the meanings of the remaining words adjust to fill the gaps left
by the abolished words, so that none of them are any longer English as
we knew it, nor as we tried to engineer it.

One of the problems with anglosaxonics, shavianism, esperantism and so
on is that enthusiasts believe in the idea that the whole world will one
day embrace their ideas. Anglosaxonics was sick unto death in its
heyday, what's different now? The Internet makes these things more
available but it doesn't seem to make them catch on.

I suppose all language enthusiasts suffer a bit of Weltschmertz over how
certain groups use a language, but you ponder the meaning of that word
and realise that this is how things are. Language use in the real world
will always disappoint the purist.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/dfdb85d4/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 02:43:23 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:43:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.184323.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]

Dear Sandy Fleming and rest of Lowlanders,

And I agree with your saying:

>
> Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig" from the
> language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is impoverished.



 Dear Sandy Fleming and rest of Lowlanders,

And I agree with your saying:


> Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig" from the
> language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is impoverished.
>

I would just like to add another dimension to the discussion, mainly the
esthetic. When writing a poem, or anything else, anyone would prefer to use
a word like "zip" rather than "enthusiasm", "many" instead of
"multitudinous", "good" for "beneficent", etc.

Generally the only times I use Roget's "Thesaurus" is to achieve a smoother,
yet peppier flow of language or even just a shorter word.

Academics, lawyers and other specialists need certain highfalutin words that
can often be avoided by others, regardless of language. In Spanish, simple
"enseñanza" often is better than "pedagogía", "vender" rather than
"mercadear", etc.

Jorge Potter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/6b66fa8a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 18:18:30 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:18:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.101830.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.22 (01) [E]

Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig" from the
language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is impoverished.
Worse still, non-native learners might still stick with "excavate" and
so on, and the language starts to split into different varieties in
which the meanings of the remaining words adjust to fill the gaps left
by the abolished words, so that none of them are any longer English as
we knew it, nor as we tried to engineer it.

One of the problems with anglosaxonics, shavianism, esperantism and so
on is that enthusiasts believe in the idea that the whole world will one
day embrace their ideas. Anglosaxonics was sick unto death in its
heyday, what's different now? The Internet makes these things more
available but it doesn't seem to make them catch on.

I suppose all language enthusiasts suffer a bit of Weltschmertz over how
certain groups use a language, but you ponder the meaning of that word
and realise that this is how things are. Language use in the real world
will always disappoint the purist.

Just for the record, as a geotechnical engineer I use "excavate" all the
time :)

I think we're essentially saying the same thing, I just lean more to
"Anglo-Germanic" where it does the job. I can't talk about medical,
scientific or indeed a lot of everyday social/economic matters without
Classical or Romance input.  As for other borrowings, I eat a version of the
Nahua *Xocolatl*, rather than "sweetbrownstickyfood".  But I'd still rather
walk in the hills than perambulate in the elevated terrain.

Paul

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/daccb592/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 19:24:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:24:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (02) [E/S]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.112408.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Lowlanders!

Those of you interested in linguistic rights issues may enjoy browsing
through the latest issue of the Eurolang journal (http://www.eurolang.net/),
as always the first-stop information resource about European minority
language matters.

Several article are directly relevant to our focus:

   - The BBC is being criticized from various sides. One of the issues is
   its failure to include Scots (as well as Cornish).
   [The West of Scotland MSP Dr Bill Wilson (SNP) has lodged a motion in
   the Scottish Parliament calling for Scots to be mentioned. According to Dr
   Wilson: "It's about time the BBC acknowledges that Scots is a national
   treasure — a highly descriptive and characterful language, a language that
   has survived despite concerted attempts to extinguish it. The BBC should be
   proud of our country and its three indigenous languages. Together, Scots,
   Gaelic and English shaped us.  Continue to deny one of them and you damage
   our identity and prevent the country reaching its full cultural potential."]
   Weel, fowk, A dinna ettle tae pit in ma spuin an eikle the gurly
   clamjamfrie, bit as an Escotophile Commonwalth ceetizen an ane o Her
   Maijesty's hummle subjecs A maun remember ye o the follaein addresses o the
   BBC:
   - http://www.bbc.co.uk/
      - http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/
      - http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
      - http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/contactus/form.shtml


   - "Praat mar Frysk!" says Coutzen Krous, one of l'Oréal's top models
   currently living in New York City, the highest-paid model from the
   Netherlands ever. She is stepping up as a spokesperson for the Frisian
   language under motto of the Frisian Language Institute (Afûk). Her main aim
   seems to be to encourage people to use Frisian. If the media don't edit out
   such exotic language activist outbursts, Coutzen's efforts might even tell
   people that Frisians aren't only cows. The international media certainly
   routinely ignore the Frisianness of Olympic gold medal winners from the
   Netherlands, probably as confusing trivia. Will a blond beauty icon succeed
   where others have failed?

Please find these and other interesting news here: http://www.eurolang.net/

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/a69628b7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 20:17:58 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:17:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.121758.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]

Beste Ron, Marcus e.a.;

Ron, you tried to explain the difference between *Lüttjensee* or *Lüttensee,
* depending of its use either in Low Saxon or German.
You wrote:

In other words, "Lüttjensee," even though of older Low Saxon origin, is in
fact a ("High") German name, while the Low Saxon name changed and nowadays
is "Lüttensee." In yet other words, the fact that the German name is of Low
Saxon origin does not change the fact that it is a German name, and the
respective names in the respective languages are free to take on lives of
their own (which happened in the case of Low Saxon). Furthermore, I argued
that people preferring "Lüttjensee" does not make it Low Saxon *now*.

I have to admitt that I'm a little confused at the moment.

If my son is coming from fishing and tells me: "Ich habe 10 Aale gefangen,
sieben davon habe ich behalten. Drei waren zu lütt, die habe ich wieder
zurückgesetzt (I caught 10 eels, seven of them I brought with me. Three of
them were too small, so I put them back into the river)". As you might see-
he uses *'lütt' *in a Standard German context. So it's a Standard German
word here?! ***

Next time I meet my neighbour, a fanatic fisherman too. We use to speak LS
to each other. He might tell me "Ick hebb vandoog 10 Ool'n fungen, söben
doorvan hebb ick behoul'n. Drey weyr'n tou *lütt*, de hebb 'ck weller
trüchsett' (see above!)". So this time *'lütt'* is Low Saxon because of its
use in a Low Saxon context?!

If I talk to the same neighbour about *'Lütjensee'/'Lüttensee'* we might use
both versions in *our* local dialect, but never would be aware of the fact
that one of them (I forgot which one ;-)) is Standard German and the other
one could be more LS.
( ** *BTW: _lütt_ even is enlisted in the DUDEN as a Standard German word)

Another example: some of you might know the word "Kinder mit 'nem Will'n,
kriegen was auf die Bill'n (Children with a will will get somewhat on their
back side)". Is it a Standard German proverb or is it Low Saxon, because the
*'Bill'n'*-component is LS and the rest is German!? Be honest- who of you
knew that *'Bill'* means G:'Pobacke' E: 'buttcheek'? Though I grew up with
these words I had never known it up to any half year ago, and I guess so
didn't the people who liked to use it in my childhood.
So *'Bill'* must be a Standard German word on behalf of its frequently use
in a German context! But you won't find many German speakers, neither in the
North nor certainly in the South who know its meaning.

'Der Hullen' (official location name in the neighbourhood) had been 'Hullen'
since some hundred years, and we still use the word in LS as well as in
German to denote an island. So we should stop it using when we want to talk
correct, unwatered LS?

I could list up another hundred cases of this sort but I fear it wouldn't
help to make your kind of hair-splitting argumentation clearer to the rest
of the world ;-)....

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

I'm pleased you are eager to know more about this, Jonny. I will try to keep
my response as concise as possible. And please bear in mind that I am
talking about well-established principles here, not about my own
concoctions.

There is a difference between a loanword that is used occasionally and one
that is used regularly (i.e., is "nativized").

An occasionally used loanword is just that that. For instance, if I say, "My
favorite Chinese snack food is *shuijiao*, a type of steamed dumpling," then
*shuijiao* is an occasionally used foreign item (i.e., loanword). If for
some reason this food becomes so common in my specific speaker community
that everyone uses the name, then it has been nativized, i.e., adopted into
the "main compartment" of the lexicon of our common language variety. A
language variety may be a local dialect, a sociolect (for instance in the
jargon of "foodies") or in fact adopted in a country's regular standard
language. As long as a group of people uses the word regularly it belongs to
this common lexical set. Its origin, though correctly assumed in this case,
becomes irrelevant to all but foodies and etymologists.

*Lütt* 'little', 'small', is regularly used in most Missingsch varieties and
Missingsch-derived German varieties of Northern Germany. It thus is a
lexical item in those language varieties, and its origin as a loanword is
probably not relevant in most contexts. Being often heard, it is also
understood by people that use different German varieties, but they would not
normally use it; so it is foreign but recognizable (i.e., in the passive
lexicon, not in the active one). It is similar to Scots *wee* 'little',
'small', being used only in informal Scottish English, but widely understood
in the English-speaking world. Some people may use it "for effect" once in a
blue moon, which makes it an occasionally used loanword, one that you
retrieve from your passive lexicon for one-time use. You may occasionally
use *lütt* in a casual speech or writing mode that you consider Standard
German, but you would not use it in formal, "serious" speaking and writing
modes. This shows you that its use is restricted to a certain register. If
you happen to live in an area in which the Low Saxon dialect has
*l**üttje*instead, you are likely to use it rather than
*l**ütt* in the local German variety, either occasionally or, in casual
modes, regularly. Those are language *varieties* and registers, of which
there are many in any given language. This does not make it "standard."
"Standard" is a codified variety that people of various regions have in
common.

Not everything that is German, i.e., not Low Saxon and not "outright"
Missingsch, is "Standard German," not even if you personally believe it is.
Yes, Standard German is a fairly lose construct that allows some regional
choices, but there are limits as to *Common* Standard German. *Lütt* is
listed in the Duden because it occurs in a lot of varieties and is thus
widely understood, though certainly not used in non-northern varieties. This
alone does not necessarily make it a regular part of *Common* Standard
German, though it may be common Northern German. Similarly, *wee* is not a
part of the *Common* Standard English lexicon, though it seems to be a part
of the Scottish and Northumbrian English lexicon. *Muckle* for 'big' or
'large' is less widely understood in English, is thus regionally more
restricted with regard to passive lexicon.

If *l**ütt* is a regular lexical item in your local casual German variety
and it is also a regular lexical item in your local Low Saxon variety, then
you are still dealing with two separate words in two separate languages,
strange though this may sound at first. No, you are *not* dealing with "the
same word," and the fact that they came from the same place, sounds alike
and are written alike does not make them one word. The two now have lives of
their own and, at least theoretically, may develop differently.

I hope this clarified it for you.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/2e3df92e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 21:25:11 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:25:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.132511.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Jonny, folks,

Sorry I'm having to chase a postscript after my response.

Jonny, you were asking about the German saying *Kinder mit 'nem Will'n,
kriegen was auf die Bill'n*.

Proverbs, sayings and idiomatic expressions are usually lexicalized as whole
entities. They are memorized just like individual words are. It doesn't
matter if they fully, partly or not at all consist of native words. (For
instance, *ad hoc*, *ad nauseam* and *Veni, vidi, vici* are entirely Latin
but are used by a large percentage of educated English speakers.) Unless *
Bill* (feminine *Bille* in other dialects) is used in your local German
dialect (to denote 'buttock' or something else), its occurrence in the
German saying *Kinder mit 'nem Will'n, kriegen was auf die Bill'n* is
foreign, occurring as a part of a lexicalized saying. (Its origin may be a
Low Saxon saying: **Kinner mit 'n Willn kriegt wat op de Billn*.)

(By the way, in my house it got distorted and *Brill'n* 'eye-glasses' was
used in this saying instead, which is another process altogether: choosing
the closest-sounding native word that makes at least a little bit of sense.)

If you do regularly use *Bill* in this way in your German variety (and I
don't in mine), it would be a native word, an it would be morphologically
treated in the German way: nom. *die/eine Bill(e)*, gen. *der/einer Bill(e)*,
dat. *der/einer Bill(e)*, acc. *die/eine Bill(e)* (provided it retains its
feminine gender); cf. Low Saxon *de/(ee)n(e) Bill(e)* in all cases**.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/e983be96/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 21:53:09 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:53:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.135309.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]

Hi folks,
In no way do I have the scientific capacity to cast any doubt
when Ron writes:
"So the name "Toronto" is an English name of Mohawk origin."
With my (completely unscientific) FEELING I cannot but side
with Gabriele: To me Lütjensee sounds as LS as can be.
I FEEL with her that a bilingual sign Lütjensee/Lüttensee
would be absurd. What I am saying is: The goal of this
action might want to be amended: Where the current HG
name is of LS origin, by no means do we need bilingual
signs.
To me whether Toronto is a Mohawk NAME or of Mohawk
ORIGIN is only  scientifically relevant. Ron is a scientist,
no quibbling with that.
Greetings to all, Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

In the German sentence *Die beste italienische Küche ist in Bologna* (The
best Italian cuisine is in Bologna) *Bologna* looks like an Italian name
because it was taken from Italian, just as *Florenz* (= Italian *Firenze*)
is a German name in the sentence *Die besten Galerien sind in Florenz* (The
best galleries are in Florence -- English "Florence" < French *Florence*).

"Vienna" is an English name, not an Italian one, when you use it in English,
although its origin is likely to be Italian *Vienna*.
*
*"Aix-la-Chapelle" and "Aachen" are two English names for the same German
city. They are not French and German, though of French and German origin.
Which of the two people use depends on their language variety.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/337b2639/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 00:59:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:59:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.165926.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.12 (04) [E]

Helge and all,
As someone who spent all his 9 high-school years in Rendsborg,
I want to thank you for your elucidating posting which I got aware
of only today, 12 days later.
Almost everything was new to me, all we were told in school was
to collect Bausteine (money) for the Deutschtum in Nord-Schleswig.
This was in the 50s....
Greetings, Mike Wintzer

This is what Helge wrote:
From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.11 (05) [E/LS/Danish/German]

Leve Lowlanders,

I think I also have to make a contribution to this little discussion because
my mother's family is one of those families which remained loyal to Denmark
although they always lived in Holsten just south of Rendsborg. Ethnically
they didn't feel etc.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/9088e850/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 01:00:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:00:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.170042.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (06) [E]

> From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]
>
> Dear Sandy Fleming and rest of Lowlanders,
>
> And I agree with your saying:
>
>         Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig"
>         from the
>         language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is
>         impoverished.
>
> I would just like to add another dimension to the discussion, mainly
> the esthetic. When writing a poem, or anything else, anyone would
> prefer to use a word like "zip" rather than "enthusiasm", "many"
> instead of "multitudinous", "good" for "beneficent", etc.

But surely not.

In poetry, one wants to be able to say "Love's Labour Lost", rather than
be constrained to "Love's Work Lost."

Or "Murder in the Cathedral" rather than "Getting Killed in the Big
Church"  :)

You can make either side of the fence sound silly by choosing a phrase
that English speakers would normally say on your favoured side and
showing how wrong it would sound if you said it on the other side. Thus
Paul's "walk in the hills" -> "perambulate in the elevated terrain"
going one way or my "Murder in the Cathedral" -> "Getting Killed in the
Big Church" going the other way. Choosing examples that suit you isn't a
good form of argument: people don't actually say it the silly way so
you've demonstrated nothing.

Well, OK, there are people with certain personal issues who do try to
use latinate English to make their everyday speech sound lofty, but it's
also bad to warp your meaning in trying to make yourself sound earthy.

The fact remains that either sort of word can be better than the other
sort, depending on exactly what you're trying to say, the impression you
want to give, or even the aesthetic.

(BTW, I would never say or write "zip" for "enthusiasm"! Nor are "good"
and "beneficent" synonymous. "Multitudinous" is one of these words where
a quite common (at least in the Bible!) word like "multitude" gets
stretched to breaking point, and is therefore perhaps a word to be
avoided as a rule. But careless extensions of Anglo-Saxon words can lead
to an increase in the misunderstandability of your speech or writing
too.)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/39f8b6bc/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 15:49:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:49:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.074926.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

"Aix-la-Chapelle" and "Aachen" are two English names for the same German
city. They are not French and German, though of French and German origin.
Which of the two people use depends on their language variety.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

So...just out of curiosity, what is the German name for Aachen?  I seem to
recall seeing that on road signs in Koeln, but I could be mistaken.

Paul Finlow-Bates (who also hadn't realised that "Aix-la-Chapelle" and
"Aachen" were the same place!!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

It's *Aachen*, Paul. It's *Aken *in Dutch and *Oche *in the local Ripuarian
dialects.

Apparently, in English there's now a tendency toward "Aachen".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/3fa16f2f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 15:51:40 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:51:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.24 (02) [D]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.075140.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]

Beste Ron en alle anderen,
In Nederland is bil = de kake van je gat!
In Vlaanderen is bil = dij!
In ons dialect, het West-Vlaams klinkt het: de bille.
Als een visserskind zijn vader-visser wist de haven binnenvaren, riep het:
Ma, pa is binn
de karamiln
loopm van ze biln!
D.i. hij heeft een goede vangst gehad want de snoepjes lopen van zijn dijen!
Wat betreft lütje enz. Het West-Vlaams kent voor "weinig"
létter (vgl. Nederlands luttel, Eng. Little).
't Is osan te vele of te létter = het is altijd te veel of te weinig!
Bovendien kennen we ook "e létsje" = een weinig.
'k Gon e létsje gon wangeln = ik ga wat wandelen.
Frans-Vlaanderen kent "a lietsje" = een beetje (vgl Deens "en lid"?).
Baid a lietsje = wacht een beetje (gehoord in Ekelsbeke, nu Esquelbecq)
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/b6488f22/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 15:55:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:55:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Sports" 2007.11.24 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.075508.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Friesche Schaats and Winter Sports"

For what it's worth, I found the following in a second-hand shop, though I
have yet to purchase them:
a pair of long-bladed strap-on skates, with the following company name and
such:

De beste Friesche Schaats
N.V. De Friesche Schaatsenfabricken
Heerenveen

As an ice-hockey goalie in a previous life (when I had a bit more money ;) I
recognized them as a form of racing skate, though definitely left behind in
sophistication by my Bauer racing skates.  I'm just wondering about their
history - it's obvious that being Friesche Schaats was some sort of selling
point.  And I haven't seen strap-on ice skates before - though strap-on
roller skates exist in distressing numbers. ;)

Does anyone know anything about this factory and this brand?

Thanks

Wesley Parish

On Saturday 24 November 2007 08:24, Lowlands-L List wrote:

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language politics
>
> Hi, Lowlanders!
>
<snip>
>
>    - "Praat mar Frysk!" says Coutzen Krous, one of l'Oréal's top models
>    currently living in New York City, the highest-paid model from the
>    Netherlands ever. She is stepping up as a spokesperson for the Frisian
>    language under motto of the Frisian Language Institute (Afûk). Her main
> aim seems to be to encourage people to use Frisian. If the media don't
edit
> out such exotic language activist outbursts, Coutzen's efforts might even
> tell people that Frisians aren't only cows. The international media
> certainly routinely ignore the Frisianness of Olympic gold medal winners
> from the Netherlands, probably as confusing trivia. Will a blond beauty
> icon succeed where others have failed?
>
<snip>
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/a53c8a94/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:39:09 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:39:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.24 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.203909.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.24 (02) [D]

Dear Lowlanders,



This post does not correspond to any current thread, but I was so impressed
last night by the last of three TV programs by Robert MacNeil, "Do you speak
American?" that I just had to mention it. It's about the major American
English dialects.



We missed the first two of the series, because when Daylight Savings
disappears every fall, good PBS programs often get too late for us old
timers. Last night covered the part of his around-the-US tour to assess
American English dialects, in the part from Los Angeles to Seattle. Had I
known how good they would be, I would have seen all of them.



Basically, he finds our dialects are alive and well and that the newest,
Californian, is growing regionally, as well as having already generalized in
America the use of words like "like" and "dude". The whole series is
summarized at:



http://www.pbs.org/speak/about/



http://www.pbs.org/speak/transcripts/



http://www.pbs.org/speak/about/guide/index.html#Table



Jorge Potter

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/646ac8ab/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:40:51 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:40:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Sports" 2007.11.24 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.204051.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Sports" 2007.11.24 (03) [E]

Oh, Oh, Wesley,

I hope you know what you're doing: showing interest
about wooden strap-on ice skates; and then you're
telling that you haven't seen such miracles before.
I'm sure some experts will tell more you about these
first-world-wonder-vehicles.

In my youth -on the local frozen streams- everybody
had strap-on ice skates...  except for some prudish
girls who were skating on so called ice-hockey-skates
[which they weren't of course] and these girls always
had pink shawls and paleblue bonnets.

A correction of the spelling: De Friesche
SchaatsenfabriEken.

In Heerenveen used to be the Batavus iceskate factory.
But Batavus nowadays only is known as a factory of
bicycles.

And to show you that this kind of iceskating is a
veeery serious part of life, have a look at:
http://www.iceskatesmuseum.com/museum-n/historie-8.htm

and:
http://www.schaatsenmuseum.nl/museum-n/abc-ned.schaatsen.htm

In any case you will understand the pictures.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/1e76342c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:42:05 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:42:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.204205.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]

Hi Mike,
> Hi folks,
> In no way do I have the scientific capacity to cast any doubt
> when Ron writes:
> "So the name "Toronto" is an English name of Mohawk origin."
> With my (completely unscientific) FEELING I cannot but side
> with Gabriele: To me Lütjensee sounds as LS as can be.
> I FEEL with her that a bilingual sign Lütjensee/Lüttensee
> would be absurd. What I am saying is: The goal of this
> action might want to be amended: Where the current HG
> name is of LS origin, by no means do we need bilingual
I disagree. The name Lütjensee has been fixed a long time ago. Please keep
in
mind that the Low Saxon language has changed over time. If the current usage
of the local people in Low Saxon has changed to Lüttensee, this should be
reflected in the new Low Saxon road signs. Therefore the only question that
remains to be solved is: what name do the local people use? From my personal
point of view this is plausible, to my knowledge "lütt" is much more common
than "lütj" nowadays. But I might err in this point and I live some
kilometers away from Lüttensee and they might prefer something other than I
do. Another example: Not from Stormarn: Oldenburg. Looks quite Low Saxon,
but
the usual form today for the second part is "borg" and not "burg" and the
first part usually loses the "d". So do we have to stick to Oldenburg, just
because one could argue that it is already platt? I do not think so. The
modern Low Saxon names should reflect modern language usage.

The new list is a real step forward:
1) To my knowledge it is the first time that such a comprehensive list of
Low
Saxon place names has been compiled and I know that the Fehrs-Gilde is
working on similar lists for other parts of Schleswig-Holstein, too.
2) The list has the backing of the local authorities, it is even published
on
their web site. This is of historic importance. The Landkreis Stormarn
officially supports bilingual roadsigns!!! Yeah!!!
3) For the first time there is some discussion about the place names. (Some
critical remarks about Bargteheide were reported in the Abendblatt.) That
means: so far, most people did not care much about LS place names. Now,
suddenly, they do care and where neccessary the list can be improved, and I
am sure, that it will be. Besides: most names seem to pass unchallenged,
even
here. So the work of the Fehrs-Gilde cannot be that bad.

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/b4e0b9cc/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:47:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:47:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.11.24 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.204731.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L"Idiomatica"

Dear Lowlanders,

Yesterday when I was waiting for the bus, I had some kind of a "Desperanto"
conversation with a Chinese lady about when the bus would come. She used the
term "three and nine or 3 and 9" for a quarter before and a quarter after
the hour.

My question is: Is this part of a Chinese idiomatic expression or is it in
true "Desperanto" fashion an attempt to visualise the situation. Maybe the
China hands amongst you can throw a light on the situation? Jacqueline

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/bb8d043c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:50:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:50:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.24 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.205031.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (01) [E]

Paul wrote "But I'd still rather walk in the hills than perambulate in the
elevated terrain."

Trying to unpick prejudice is a long slow process: some decades ago it would
have been generally accepted that " perambulate in an elevated terrain" was
an indication of  the speaker's " higher (better) education" or "higher
thinking".

The classic example ( sorry about the pun) came from the Classics Society
some 20 years ago, who asked teachers to make a judgement between two boys,
who had been asked what they would do, if they were Chancellor for a day.
One replied: " Well I'd keep most of the laws but I'd get rid of some of
them." The other replied " I would abolish a minority of laws but would
retain the majority." Most of the teachers judged the latter boy 'more
intelligent' / 'better educated' than the former.  Yet in fact both boys are
thinking exactly the same thing and neither is cleverer than the other.

Then there was a swing ( in teaching at least) to avoid the latinisms /
classical English, and heap extra praise on those who spoke simple
straightforward language. And heap contempt on those who did use 'long
words'. I wonder if the above test were re-run now, what the reactions of
teachers would be.

I have tried all my career long to get teachers to understand that it is not
how one says something, but what one says that is important. That vocabulary
is accident of environment: you learn what you hear and it would be
extraordinary for the 5year old boy who on seeing someone coming through a
window said: What an unorthodox method of entry! if he were to say instead:
'ere wha' a funny way to come in. He is as likely to say it in Chinese or
Pidgin - because if that is not the language of his environment, he won't
know it to use it.

When it comes to languages changing or creating new words for new ideas or
objects, I sincerely believe that 'the grass roots will out'! Logie Baird
did not use the word television for his invention but that's how it is known
worldwide . Who gave the Germans 'Handy' for a mobile ( and what other terms
have become accepted elsewhere for this new invention?) The French Govt has
tried for years to stop / discourage the use of weekend/ hamburger/ jeans
etc etc to no avail.

People will use what people will use and it is nigh impossible to legislate
for or against anything to be imposed ( unless you make it a condition of
employment - then necessity beckons)

But even in these situations , the grass roots version of the language will
start to be more creative and inventive than the language tsars officially
tolerate. And long may that be!

Heather

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/b79e498d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 05:10:54 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:10:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.24 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.211054.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 09
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (01) [E]

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]


So...just out of curiosity, what is the German name for Aachen?  I seem to
recall seeing that on road signs in Koeln, but I could be mistaken.

Paul Finlow-Bates (who also hadn't realised that "Aix-la-Chapelle" and
"Aachen" were the same place!!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

It's *Aachen*, Paul. It's *Aken *in Dutch and *Oche *in the local Ripuarian
dialects.

Apparently, in English there's now a tendency toward "Aachen".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
 *********************************************************************
Thanks Reinhard;

Now all I have to do is find out more about the local Ripuarian dialects.
It's a maze, this language business; every answer creates 10 more questions.

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Paul!

Please check the following to start with:

Ripuarian generally:

   - Wikipedia - English:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarian_%28language%29
   - Wikipedia - German:
   http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarische_Dialektgruppe
   - Wikipedia - Cologne Ripurarian:
   http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripoar%C4%97sch_%28Shprooch%29

Aachen Ripuarian (*Öcher Platt*):

   - Wikipedia - English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96cher_Platt
   - Wikipedia - German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96cher_Platt
   - Wikipedia - Cologne Ripuarian:
   http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96cher_Platt
   - The language association: http://www.oecher-platt.de/

The book-CD package *Tuur dörch Oche | Tour durch Aachen | Tour of Aachen |
Tour d'Aix-la-Chapelle* comes in Ripuarian, Standard German, English and
French: http://www.oecher-platt.de/frmset_01.htm

The most widely know Ripuarian dialect may be that of Cologne.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/a8aac228/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 17:08:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:08:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.090853.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (06) [E]

Heiko wrote:
>I disagree. The name Lütjensee has been fixed a long time ago. Please keep
in
>mind that the Low Saxon language has changed over time. If the current
usage
>of the local people in Low Saxon has changed to Lüttensee, this should be
>reflected in the new Low Saxon road signs.

Why would Lower Saxon road signs be needed in the first place? The natives
know what to call their village all right - isn't that enough? This is also
true for other areas of Germany - natives of Fulda call the town "Fol",
natives of München (Munich) call it "Menga"; Köln (Cologne) is "Kölle",
Kaiserslautern is "Lautere" - no matter what the signs say. Any non-native
who is interested in speaking the local dialect or language will learn that,
too. Why should it be of any interest to others?

This is Germany, not Wales, where the two languages used are truly separate
and names for the same place can be very differnt. Between High German and
Low Saxon, it is usually just a matter of pronunciation, I don't know a
single case where two completely different names are used. And changing one
letter, as in "Lütjensee/Lüttensee" is plain stupid and will earn the
concept of Lower Saxon as a separate language less respect, not more.

Where I live, this would mean changing the ending -hausen to -husen in many
names and then putting up both on a sign, which I consider utterly pointless
(and so do all the older, Platt-speaking people around here that I asked
about it).

Gabriele Kahn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/48c9cea2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 17:12:11 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:12:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.25 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.091211.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.24 (09) [E]

 > From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
> .... book-CD package *Tuur dörch Oche | Tour durch Aachen | Tour of Aachen
| Tour d'Aix-la-Chapelle* comes in Ripuarian, Standard German, English and
French: http://www.oecher-platt.de/frmset_01.htm
Some additional resources:

*Dictionaries*:

- Prof. Dr. Will Hermanns, *Aachener Sprachschatz*, Verlag J.A. Mayer,
Aachen,
1970, 7th reprint 1991, LII + 596 pp., clothbound, Öcher-German *only*, over
2 cols/page.

- *Aachener Dialekt-Wortschatz*:
Öcher Platt - Hochdeutsch und
Hochdeutsch - Öcher Platt
Öcher Platt e.V., 2000, pages not numbered (about 450 pages I guess (2
cols/page), must also exist as CD-ROM.
Very short lemmas.

*Grammar*:

- Adolf Steins, *Grammatik des Aachener Dialekts*,
1998, Böhlau Verlag, Köln,  (Reinisches Archiv 141), 242 pp.

There is published quite a lot of literature (mostly short stories
bundled) in book form and on CD (including songs by/for kids). During
carnaval you will find a lot of this stuff all over town.

You may find some stuff at:
http://www.mayersche.de/
Their multi-store bookshop in the Buchkremerstrasse
http://www.mayersche.de/index.php?id=aachen-buchkremerstr
has a large stock. I suggest you start at the back of the ground floor
(shelves with regional stuff)

> The most widely know Ripuarian dialect may be that of Cologne.

Centainly, but there are dictionaries and other publications in/about almost
every municipal dialect. They are however often hard to find, since they are
published locally, often only to preregistered buyers. You may find some of
them in antiquiarian bookshops.

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/bece4916/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 19:18:29 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:18:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.111829.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (01) [E]

Hi Gabriele,
> Why would Lower Saxon road signs be needed in the first place? The natives
> know what to call their village all right - isn't that enough?
> This is also
> true for other areas of Germany - natives of Fulda call the town "Fol",
> natives of München (Munich) call it "Menga"; Köln (Cologne) is "Kölle",
> Kaiserslautern is "Lautere" - no matter what the signs say. Any non-native
> who is interested in speaking the local dialect or language will learn
> that, too. Why should it be of any interest to others?
Well, you are free to think that these road signs are superfluous. I think
they are neccessary. Low Saxon has official recognition as a regional
language and according to the European Language Charter article 10 2 g the
place names in these regional languages enjoy official protection from
Brussels. And I am no longer willing to discuss whether or not to put up
these bilingual road signs. What the Fehrs-Gilde and I and several other
people in North Germany demand is simply that these obligations will be
fulfilled.
(The charter can be found in
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/148.htm)

> This is Germany, not Wales, where the two languages used are truly
separate
> and names for the same place can be very differnt. Between High German and
> Low Saxon, it is usually just a matter of pronunciation, I don't know a
> single case where two completely different names are used. And changing
one
> letter, as in "Lütjensee/Lüttensee" is plain stupid and will earn the
> concept of Lower Saxon as a separate language less respect, not more.
Even if the difference is only one letter, the Low Saxon "subtitle" serves
an
important purpose: it makes the LS language visible and it shows that there
is official recognition for this language. It shows clearly to everyone who
enters the village that LS is not just the dialect of dumb and uneducated
people, but that it is a real language with its own rights.

> Where I live, this would mean changing the ending -hausen to -husen in
many
> names and then putting up both on a sign, which I consider utterly
> pointless (and so do all the older, Platt-speaking people around here that
> I asked about it).
Well, Gabriele, you are free to think so. But as long as there are people
who
want these road signs (which obviously is the case), this does not count
much. Bilingual road signs are a right for those who want them. If there is
a
majority against these, this does not count as majority wishes do not count
when it comes to the protection of minorities.

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko Evermann
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/cf25146d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 19:53:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:53:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.115348.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (03) [E]

Heiko wrote:
> Where I live, this would mean changing the ending -hausen to -husen in
many
> names and then putting up both on a sign, which I consider utterly
> pointless (and so do all the older, Platt-speaking people around here that

> I asked about it).
Well, Gabriele, you are free to think so. But as long as there are people
who
want these road signs (which obviously is the case), this does not count
much. Bilingual road signs are a right for those who want them. If there is
a
majority against these, this does not count as majority wishes do not count
when it comes to the protection of minorities.

I see... again, it all boils down to some people cramming their political
agendas down the throats of those who would rather get on with their
lives...

Just think of what those stupid signs would cost, and what else could be
done with the money and natural resources.

Where I live, several villages have put up their own wooden signs, with the
name of the place and a greeting in Lower Saxon (OUR local variety and
spelling, not what some non-local activists would have us use). We don't
need bureaucrats to tell us how to handle this. It's all about power in the
end, isn't it?

So when the majority of people who actually speak Lower Saxon (which appears
to be the minority we are talking about) think that those "official" signs
are rubbish, they no longer count as a minority, and those few people who
think it is a good idea should have their way simply because there's fewer
of them?

Actually, people around here are very actively keeping their language alive
these days. All by themselves, and with no guidance from those who would
like to be seen as "saviours" of the language. And they do it for love, not
power.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (01) [E]

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (06) [E]

.....The natives know what to call their village all right - isn't that
enough?
......Between High German and Low Saxon, it is usually just a matter of
pronunciation, I don't know a single case where two completely different
names are used.

Gabriele Kahn

And if Germany is anything at all like England, whatever an outsider says
will be wrong anyway, and will be gleefully corrected! Re-spelling Kibworth
as "Kibbuth", Haltcliff as "Oockly" and Uttoxeter as "Utticka" would not
only confuse outsiders, it would spoil the locals' fun.

Paul Finlow-Bates

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/bb73ebbd/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 20:11:02 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:11:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.121102.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.25 (02) [E]

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.24 (09) [E]

Roger and Reinhard,
Thanks for the info on the Rhine area speech, always interesting to hear the
variety that's out there.  They obviously don't use it with foreigners
though, everyone I spoke to in Cologne and surrounds (Bergische Land) seemed
to use Standard German, so I naturally assumed that was what they spoke.
Germany, and much of Europe, seems much more bilingual in that respect than
England.  People with regional accents and dialects make little attempt to
"standardise" for foreigners, and virtually none at all for other Britons.

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Paul!

People don't use anything but Standard German with outsiders if they can
help it, or they will use the outsider's language if they know it.

To some degree this applies in England also (substitute "English" for
"German"), though there will always be "accents." However, unlike in
Britain, speaking non-standard language has not yet received the general nod
of approval. The results of indoctrination of the ideal of "one country -
one ethnicity - one language" have a long way to go on their way out,
especially with regard to languages that are obviously related to German.
This indoctrination has affected native speakers and their descendants as
much as those that grew up with German only. This is not going to go away
terribly quickly, especially in more conservative-dominated communities that
have a culture of rejecting change (*any* change) because to them "change"
is synonymous with "outsiders' meddling." So if you ask people to speak to
you in their local language, many will find this very strange, because they
have come to believe that their language is private and improper, that you
as an outsider should not be involved in it. When a foreigner, especially an
"exotic-looking" one, speaks "dialect," many people will point this out as
an amusing anomaly.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/f8ba0a26/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 22:35:41 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:35:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.143541.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]

Paul wrote:
>And if Germany is anything at all like England, whatever an outsider says
will be wrong anyway, and will be gleefully >corrected! Re-spelling Kibworth
as "Kibbuth", Haltcliff as "Oockly" and Uttoxeter as "Utticka" would not
only >confuse outsiders, it would spoil the locals' fun.

This is not only true for "old" cultures - just try talking to people from
Lebanon, Oregon! They will always tell you you pronounce it wrong, no matter
which way you try... ;-)

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]

Paul wrote:
>And if Germany is anything at all like England, whatever an outsider says
will be wrong anyway, and will be gleefully >corrected! Re-spelling Kibworth
as "Kibbuth", Haltcliff as "Oockly" and Uttoxeter as "Utticka" would not
only >confuse outsiders, it would spoil the locals' fun.

This is not only true for "old" cultures - just try talking to people from
Lebanon, Oregon! They will always tell you you pronounce it wrong, no matter
which way you try... ;-)

Gabriele Kahn

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/d3f173eb/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 22:45:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:45:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.144555.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:
> To some degree this applies in England also (substitute "English" for
> "German"), though there will always be "accents." However, unlike in
> Britain, speaking non-standard language has not yet received the
> general nod of approval.

The general nod of approval in the UK? This makes me wonder what kind of
English, British teachers use in school.

Standard or not???

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Luc!

As far as I know -- and our British friends no doubt will correct me if I'm
wrong -- the educational system in British was tweaked quite some time ago
to be more tolerant with regard to local and regional language varieties. In
other words, teachers no longer correct students (pupils) at every turn but
permit use of local varieties. You will notice that even media reporters'
language comes in quite some variety, as does the English of people
interviewed, why, even that of members of the House of Commons. You are not
necessarily considered poorly educated by everyone if you don't speak
"posh," and not speaking "posh" may even allow you to win more hearts. You
may have noticed (even though you may be too young) that class distinctions
and stigmas are melting away in Britain, and the more relaxed linguistic
atmosphere may well be one of the signs of this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/6afb0104/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 26 06:10:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:10:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.221031.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From:  Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]

About the road signs.

In Belgium we are faced with a trilingual situation
(Dutch/French/German) for the officiël languages.
*(I forget momentarily the regional languages, although in several
municipalities they are used for a second caption on street name plates,
often not a translation but the local version, often refering to an older
variant).*

We are used to double naming especially Dutch/French in the Brussels area,
and it is not uncommon to see:
Sch*aa*rbeek / Sch*ae*rbeek
or Scha*a/e*rbeek (with a little a above a little e or vice-versa)

It looks silly to foreigners but it is a consequence of an official
equivalence of languages.
I guess in Canada you will find similar things (I presume with a reduced
letter size for the English version in Quebec).

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/1c885505/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 26 17:27:45 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:27:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.NOV.2007.092745.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  26 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (07) [E]

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:
> To some degree this applies in England also (substitute "English" for
> "German"), though there will always be "accents." However, unlike in
> Britain, speaking non-standard language has not yet received the
> general nod of approval.

The general nod of approval in the UK? This makes me wonder what kind of
English, British teachers use in school.

Standard or not???

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Luc!

As far as I know -- and our British friends no doubt will correct me if I'm
wrong -- the educational system in British was tweaked quite some time ago
to be more tolerant with regard to local and regional language varieties. In
other words, teachers no longer correct students (pupils) at every turn but
permit use of local varieties. You will notice that even media reporters'
language comes in quite some variety, as does the English of people
interviewed, why, even that of members of the House of Commons. You are not
necessarily considered poorly educated by everyone if you don't speak
"posh," and not speaking "posh" may even allow you to win more hearts. You
may have noticed (even though you may be too young) that class distinctions
and stigmas are melting away in Britain, and the more relaxed linguistic
atmosphere may well be one of the signs of this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

BBC journalist David Dimbleby, in a recent program about landscape painting,
dug out some old footage of himself and friends rock-climbing in the Lake
District in the 1950's, with his voice-over.  He mocked his own accent of
that time, the accepted BBC nasal "upper class", which almost nobody speaks
anymore.  The Queen herself speaks completely differently from the time of
the Coronation.  The most notable thing is the "a" sound in words such as *
hat* or *cat*, which "Upper Class" people once pronounced *het* and *cet*.
The vowel has moved back to the Northern position. Ironically the sound was
shared with "Lower Class" Cockneys and Londoners in general - who largely
retain it, along with most Australians and New Zealanders.

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Paul.

I have noticed marked changes in the ways the Queen and several of her
family members speak. Old footage is indeed a great way of being reminded of
it. There seem to have been several phases or stages. (Remember the "pound"
[p_haMnd] or [p_haInd] phases?) This makes me wonder if this is a case of
"natural" evolution or of periodic coaching.

Aside from, or rather concurrent with the relaxation in education, there
have been the influences of the media in which plays feature "real"
varieties of "real" people from all over the country. I'm sure this has been
removing quite a few prejudices and inhibitions, and more people may have
begun to actually appreciate this type of diversity as interesting and
enriching.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071126/2fcc30d3/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 26 17:42:50 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:42:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.NOV.2007.094250.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (05) [E]

Maybe the Belgian situation (not having a "one country - one ethnicity - one
language") makes that belgian people usually still retain a lot of their
accent when speaking with outsiders? Generally one does not use his/her
dialect with everyone, but still noone really does his best to talk
'standard language', not even with 'Northerners'. [Or otherwise we're just
not able to speak 'well' dutch. But still, the degree of adapting oneself to
the outsider seems to be a lot lower than in Germany]

Diederik

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Paul!

People don't use anything but Standard German with outsiders if they can
help it, or they will use the outsider's language if they know it.

To some degree this applies in England also (substitute "English" for
"German"), though there will always be "accents." However, unlike in
Britain, speaking non-standard language has not yet received the general nod
of approval. The results of indoctrination of the ideal of "one country -
one ethnicity - one language" have a long way to go on their way out,
especially with regard to languages that are obviously related to German.
This indoctrination has affected native speakers and their descendants as
much as those that grew up with German only. This is not going to go away
terribly quickly, especially in more conservative-dominated communities that
have a culture of rejecting change ( *any* change) because to them "change"
is synonymous with "outsiders' meddling." So if you ask people to speak to
you in their local language, many will find this very strange, because they
have come to believe that their language is private and improper, that you
as an outsider should not be involved in it. When a foreigner, especially an
"exotic-looking" one, speaks "dialect," many people will point this out as
an amusing anomaly.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071126/042fb401/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 15:33:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:33:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.073335.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.26 (02) [E]

That is very true in Ireland, where northerners will emphasise their accent
and use dialectal words when dealing with Southerners. The reverse is true
with the Gammon of the Irish Traveller population. As with most Romany and
romanyesque populations, they speak common english with the common accent to
the outsiders - you and me - and revert to their own dialect with
corresponding strong accent among their own.

Tomas

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/b3ffe646/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 15:45:11 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:45:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.27 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.074511.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (06) [E]

Lists could be compiled of placemnames in the British Isles (*Celtic Isles*!!!
*:-)*) on a sililar format.

Waterford and Wexford are two to start with, as is Limerick, all from Viking
Danish. The first is easy, Vadre Fjord, I can remember the second and thrid
meanings. Maybe on www.wikipedia.org?

This project could be uploaded to the Wikipedias to spread references. Maybe
Ron would set up such a profile?

Tomas O Carthaigh

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Tom!

I'm not sure I'm catching your meaning. Do what with what?

The Old Norse version of names of larger places are already mentioned in the
Wikipedia; e.g., Waterford < Veðrafjǫrðr "Windy Inlet", Wexford < *
Veisafjǫrðr* "Mudflat Inlet". Do you mean the origin of names of smaller
places such as Foxford, Freshford and Coachford?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/03a5e6af/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 15:46:45 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:46:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.074645.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Resources

 Axell Red, a famous singer of French songs, cf.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axelle_Red
(shortened in English:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axelle_Red)
will bring a song in Limburgish from Hasselt (actually her mother language).

quoting from the hbvl.be website:

27/11 Axelle red en Fixkes in dialect-duet

In het kader van Music for Life komt er een single uit die het resultaat is
van een verrassende samenwerking: *Axelle Red* zingt samen met *Fixkes*.
Axelle voor een keer niet in het Frans, maar in onvervalst *Hasselts* en
Fixkes in het *Stabroeks.*

Het nummer werd vorige week opgenomen en zal op Studio Brussel in première
gaan in De Grote Peter Van de Veire Ochtendshow.

Later deze week toont De Rode Loper beelden van de opname. De Ultratop houdt
zich klaar.

end quote.

It will be a mix of Brabantish of Stabroek and Limburgish from Hasselt.

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/af0a7bb2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 20:41:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:41:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.124155.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.27 (02) [E]

I think there is a big difference though, in the former case they are
talking about local names still in use in the local dialect, and Viking
Danish sure is not spoken so frequently anymore on any of the British
Isles:)
For schlarly purposes of course, it still could be interesting. But
bilingual (Irish/English) road signs are already enough imho;)

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]

> From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (03) [E]
>
> Just think of what those stupid signs would cost, and what else could
> be done with the money and natural resources.

But didn't Heiko address this issue in detail already?

> So when the majority of people who actually speak Lower Saxon (which
> appears to be the minority we are talking about) think that those
> "official" signs are rubbish, they no longer count as a minority, and
> those few people who think it is a good idea should have their way
> simply because there's fewer of them?

We know from the past and sometimes unfortunately the present, that
minorities are always in danger of being oppressed by the majority.

No, people shouldn't have their way simply because there's fewer of
them, but neither should they be denied their wishes simply because
there's fewer of them.

You may think that the minority is doing fine now, but what happens when
times change? Official recognition is a safeguard against changing
attitudes. For example, people put up their own wooden signs, as you
say. But what if officials decide that wooden signs have to be taken
down? The presence of official signs in the minority language guards
against this.

Then again, the attitude of the people may change. In 2020 perhaps the
upcoming generation decides that wooden signs was something quaint their
parents did, and they melt away without anyone really noticing. Does it
mean that this generation cares less about the language? Not
necessarily, and then again maybe they would have cared more if the form
of the signage hadn't given them the wrong message: that the language
doesn't matter to anybody but the villagers.

Not everyone in a minority has either the time, money, education or
determination to do anything about a given situation, so we have to have
activists. Yes, activists are often wrong, but not always and not about
everything. Besides, there are different kinds of activists all playing
different parts, and when it all comes together the results are
generally much preferable to what we'd have if everybody had just got on
with their own lives. Welsh language signage and education are the
products of activism, not Welsh speakers "just getting on with their
lives". The large body of 20th century literature in Scots is the
product of activism on a different level, from the few hundred writers
and their few thousand readers, not the two million who speak the
language every day.

It's worth remembering that the signage issue isn't just about signage,
it's part of everything else that people who care enough about the
language to put time and effort into it are trying to achieve. If a
language has official signage in plain view it makes more sense to more
people to write it, learn it or teach it because they see every day the
concrete evidence that it's officially supported. They don't have to be
reminded about the laws governing their language rights, they don't have
to be convinced that they actually apply to real life, they can see them
in action right in front of their faces.

Would a sign saying "Aberdeen / Aiberdeen" help us to find the place
more easily if we speak mainly Scots? No, because every Scots speaker
knows "Aberdeen" as well. But a sign like that would carry another
message that's not so obvious, about the language itself. And this
message would be everywhere.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/d028ae2b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 20:43:17 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:43:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "esources" 2007.11.27 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.124317.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (03) [D/E]

Nice! Although overly hyped, I really enjoy the Fixkes from time... but
their musical style is quite different from Axelle Red?
As a sidemark, coming from the village next to Stabroek (where they come
from ergo), I have to say they don't sing in dialect, but of course they
talk like a lot of people over here talk. But it's just the local version of
the "Schoon Vlaams".

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/55062302/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 23:21:05 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:21:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" 2007.11.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.152105.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  26 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (07) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Hi, Luc!
>
> As far as I know -- and our British friends no doubt will correct me
> if I'm wrong -- the educational system in British was tweaked quite
> some time ago to be more tolerant with regard to local and regional
> language varieties. In other words, teachers no longer correct
> students (pupils) at every turn but permit use of local varieties. You
> will notice that even media reporters' language comes in quite some
> variety, as does the English of people interviewed, why, even that of
> members of the House of Commons. You are not necessarily considered
> poorly educated by everyone if you don't speak "posh," and not
> speaking "posh" may even allow you to win more hearts. You may have
> noticed (even though you may be too young) that class distinctions and
> stigmas are melting away in Britain, and the more relaxed linguistic
> atmosphere may well be one of the signs of this.

No, I wouldn't correct you on this. It's certainly true that no-one here
would be bothered about the accent or dialect someone speaks in,
including Scottish and British-Asian dialects, as long as it's
comprehensible. Nor would they be bothered about it being
incomprehensible (eg Welsh, Scots, Somerset) as long as they're not
expected to understand it.

One no longer hears scolding about dropped "h"s, th->f/v or anything
like that. The only people I've heard complaining about it recently have
all been visitors to the country or recent immigrants. If a British
person reacted in this way to an accent, I'd prpobably try to connect it
to personality traits (irritability or something) rather than the idea
that people should speak in a certain way.

This needs to be qualified with the fact that my perception of the
oral-linguistic ambience is somewhat rarefied, but on the other hand,
being deaf, people often do describe other people's accents to me, and I
can lipread accents to some extent, so it's not all that rarefied.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> local language, many will find this very strange, because they have
> come to believe that their language is private and improper, that you
> as an outsider should not be involved in it. When a foreigner,
> especially an "exotic-looking" one, speaks "dialect," many people will
> point this out as an amusing anomaly.

It's certainly true that there's a tradition of Scots speakers having a
healthy interest in foreigners, or "exotic-looking" Scots, being
involved in speaking Scots or participating in Scots culture in general.

An example from WWII is in George MacDonald Fraser's "McAuslan" series
of books where there's a story about a Black soldier in a Scottish
regiment who joins the pipe band. To people of 60 years ago this looked
very odd and raised serious questions but the eventual conclusion was
that he was a good piper and that was what mattered.

In the village where I grew up we had one Black man, who spoke Scots
exactly like us and was an Elder of the kirk (which may have been an
early example of positive discrimination, or not). To me this made a
lasting impression that Black people are just like me and scientifically
(as opposed to politically) speaking, there's no such thing as a Black
accent or language or White accent or language, everybody is the same in
this respect.

In the 1960s/70s TV series "Dad's Army" there's an episode where the
Scottish member of the group is ranting about the fact that the English
captain will regret trying to preside over the haggis at a celebratory
dinner. In the end it turns out that the Englishman could play the
bagpipes, which I remember amusing us tremendously: of course English
people can play the pipes, if they learn it!

In the 70's or 80's I remember a popular clip on Scottish TV of a young
boy singing "Auld Lang Syne" in perfect Scots. The camera starts at his
feet and moves up past his socks, flashers, kilt and jacket, and finally
his face is seen and he's Chinese. Not necessarily foreign, of course.

One of the really big Scottish events of the year is the Edinburgh
Tattoo, which is watched avidly by traditional Scots all over the
country when it's shown on TV. Although based around the idea of
Scottish regimental piping traditions, it's full of guest bands from
many other countries showing how this sort of thing is done more "exotic
looking" people than us plain-faced Scots  :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Sandy.

When I was a kid, two of our local Lutheran churches were involved in an
international pastoral exchange program. One of the churches had a visiting
pastor from Ghana for about one year, a native speaker of Twi. The other
church had a youngish pastor and his family from Hong Kong, Cantonese
speakers, for quite a long time, at least three years, I'd say. Already upon
arrival both pastors were quite conversant in German and were able to
conduct services and deliver sermons in German. Apparently they had attended
German seminaries. The one from Hong Kong, being rather gregarious, picked
up some Low Saxon. I have a feeling he did this as an extra effort to break
through the remaining ice. The one from Ghana also picked up some local
expressions with which he'd occasionally startle and amuse folks. However,
the novelty and amusement factors soon wore off.

I remember that some oldies found these visitations rather strange at first,
but I think it was just the novelty of the idea of "missionaries in
reverse," if you get my drift. However, it took both pastors very little
time to win over lots of hearts. I suspect that their linguistic efforts
played at least minor roles.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/dce65f53/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 23:22:24 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:22:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.152224.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (03) [D/E]

Nice! Although overly hyped, I really enjoy the Fixkes from time... but
their musical style is quite different from Axelle Red?
As a sidemark, coming from the village next to Stabroek (where they come
from ergo), I have to say they don't sing in dialect, but of course they
talk like a lot of people over here talk. But it's just the local version of
the "Schoon Vlaams".

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/4e46de9b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 15:15:28 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:15:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.071528.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "esources" 2007.11.27 (05) [E]

Hi all,

I think E-sources is rather well suited to our circumstances?

Elsie Zinsser

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (03) [D/E]

Nice! Although overly hyped, I really enjoy the Fixkes from time... but
their musical style is quite different from Axelle Red?
As a sidemark, coming from the village next to Stabroek (where they come
from ergo), I have to say they don't sing in dialect, but of course they
talk like a lot of people over here talk. But it's just the local version of
the "Schoon Vlaams".

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

I suppose so, Elsie. Perhaps it was the clever Kahuna taking over while I
was dozing off.

Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/d294b21e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 15:41:21 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:41:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.074121.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  26 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" 2007.11.27 (06) [E]

Sandy wrote: "One of the really big Scottish events of the year is the
Edinburgh
Tattoo, which is watched avidly by traditional Scots all over the
country when it's shown on TV."

Just a few weeks ago I had the pleasure to attend a Scottish Tattoo in
Salado, Texas.  Salado sits just up the road (north) from Austin on I-35.
 Every year they have a Scottish clan gathering in Salado.  My wife and I
have been a couple of times, but this year was our first time to see a
tattoo.  Two pipe and drum corps played.  I really enjoyed it.  In fact, I
took a few photos.  One of them I put on a photo web site.  Perhaps, y'all
would like to see it:
http://www.picable.com/People/Men/The-Perennial-Bagpiper.57617.  The tattoo
took place in the ruins of an old school (Salado College) built out of
limestone.  One of the columns still stands and the lights cast a perfect
shadow of a bagpiper.  I was lucky enough to see it and snap a photo.

Of course, I immediately wanted to know where the word "tattoo" came from.
I checked it on Google and found a reference to a time when Scottish troops
were stationed in the Netherlands.  Allegedly, every night the pipe and drum
corps would march through town to tell the bars when to "doe den tap toe."
At least, that's what I remember reading.  Does anyone know if that story is
accurate?

Mark Brooks
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Mark!

My first reaction was "What?!" And then I found that the *Oxford English
Dictionary* agrees with it and it all starts making sense:

[In 17th c. *tap-too*, a. Du. *taptoe* in same sense; f. *tap* the tap (of a
cask), + *toe* = *doe toe* 'shut'. So Sw. *tapto*, Sp. (1706) *tatu*. Cf.
Ger. *zapfenstreich*, LG. *tappenslag*, Da. *tappenstreg*, with the first
element the same, and second element meaning 'stroke, beat'.
  Although Du. *tap toe* was in military use in our sense 1 in the 17th c.,
there is reason to doubt if this was its original use. *Tap toe* = *doe den
tap toe* 'put the tap to', 'close or turn off the tap', was app. already in
colloquial use for 'shut up! stop! cease!'; Dr. Kluyver points out, in a
play of 1639 from Emden, *Doch hier de tap van toe* = 'but here we shut up',
or 'say no more'.]

How Lowlands is that? What a blast! (Pun intended?)

So it must be Dutch in origin because of the *toe* [tu(:)] ('to' >) 'shut',
versus Low Saxon *to(u)* [toU] ('to' >) 'shut'.

Apart from having tattoos at various regional highland games in the States,
many of us here also get to watch recordings of the Edinburgh Tattoo on TV.

And that's unrelated to all the body art that is going on around here.

[In 18th c. *tattaow*, *tattow* (ta'taʊ), a. Polynesian (Tahitian, Samoan,
Tongan, etc.) *[image: {sm}]tatau* (in Marquesan *[image: {sm}]tatu*) n.
denoting the markings. (For the vb. the expression is *ta [image: {sm}]tatau
* to strike or stamp tattoo.)
The word is recorded from Tahiti as *tataou* in Bougainville's *Voyage
autour du Monde* 1766-9 (Paris 1771), and as *tattow* in Capt. Cook's *First
Voyage* July 1769. The current Eng. *tattoo* and F. *tatou* are perversions
of the native name.]

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/37df093e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 18:40:25 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:40:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.104025.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]

Beste Ron, Mark en allen,
In verband met "taptoe" lees ik in het Etymologisch Woordenboek van Prof. J.
Vercoullie (een Oostendenaar!), 1925, op blz. 344:
taptoe v.: vergel. Ndd.  tappenslag, Zw. tappeni!gen, Hgd. zapfenstreich. De
betek. is wel doet den tap toe (zoo ook slag op den tap om hem toe te doen),
namelijk in de herbergen, als men moet ophouden drank te bestellen. uit het
Ndl. komt De., Zw. tapto, Eng. tattoo.
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen.

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]

Hi Mark and Ron. That was quite an eye opener. I had no idea that "taptoe",
the melody that to this day is played at lights out in Military and Boy
Scout circles had that meaning.

But it is logical. Fun!!! Jacqueline

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/4646a2dd/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 18:38:22 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:38:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varietes" 2007.11.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.103822.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: "ds" <dstokely at infionline.net>
Subject: language varieties

I have to add a little experience I had here.  When I was a young lad (way
back in the last century, I know), my father took me south to Georgia where
he was born.  We were sitting in the train station and I heard a loud
mouthed black man talking behind me.  I looked back and didn't see him.
Again, I heard that same black man speaking and turned around.  A careful
search revealed a WHITE MAN speaking black English!  I had an epiphany.  The
blacks I had heard all my life were speaking with a southern accent.

David Stokely

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, David.

I had a similar experience once in an airport when I heard people talk in
West Indian English somewhere in my vicinity. When I finally located the
speakers I saw two European faces and one East Asian face. Then I thought,
"Duh! Of course! Why not?" and I realized that our conditioned mental
associations between language sounds and people's looks have to change with
all those changes we are now witnessing. Of course this includes
"White-talking Blacks" and "Black-talking Whites" in the northern states.

Also, I once met an ethnic Russian with a Chinese accent. Turned out she
belonged to the small Russian minority of China and had learned English from
Chinese teachers at school, which accounts for her having a Chinese accent
rather than a Russian one, although her first language was Russian.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/195bcc49/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 20:47:49 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:47:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.28 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.124749.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2007.10.20 (05) [E]

Apropos Middel-Saxon...

Dear Lowlanders,

it's a very playful and amusing way to know the richness and the
multiple possibilities in word formation of the Hanseatic Saxon by
proofreading a Middelsaxon Dictionary! I have joint already after
Heiko's plea (s.b.) the Gutenberg Distributed Proofreading Project
(www.pgdp.net/c/faq/ProoferFAQ.php) for proofreading the

Middel Low German Dictionary by August Luebben

The enjoyable work has well startet running. But we are just a
handful people yet, and it would be a pity if the project would long
too much, meanwhile letting the world still without the possibilities
of an electronic, searchable version of the Middel Saxon Dictionary!

To leverage your participation in this regalement I solicit to-day
again to join this proofreading from my side, too! (Some knowledge of
Standard German would be advantageous but not necessary.) - Project
side:

http://www.pgdp.net/c/project.php?id=projectID4713e85485352

Sign in (or register first) and start proofreading with us. And
believe me:

Dat is eyne wane gūde wīse, den rīkdom unde de vźlfoldicheyt der
sasseschen spraken beter to kennen unde tor eygen nutsamicheyt to
hebben!

Gūtgān!
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries

> L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 October 2007 - Volume 04==================
>
> From: "Heiko Evermann" <Heiko.Evermann at gmx.de>
>
> [...]
>
> The dictionary contains about 600 pages each with about 60 entries.
> That is
>
> 36.000 words. That is much more than in the modern Low Saxon
> dictionaries,
>
> e.g. the "Sass" has about 10.000. Isn't it funny how many words
> these people
>
> had in their Low Saxon in those times?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/b2cc9e95/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 20:55:27 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:55:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Contest" 2007.11.28 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.125527.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Contest

Dear Lowlanders,

*Hear ye! Hear ye! Calling all poets, composers and performers!*

Please let me remind you that there is just about one month left before your
expectedly voluminous submission to our song contest must be submitted.

   - Introduction: http://www.lowlands-l.net/contest/
   - Instructions: http://www.lowlands-l.net/contest/instructions.php
   - Entry form: http://www.lowlands-l.net/contest/form.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/eafa3ff4/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 22:00:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:00:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.28 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.140047.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L: Lexikon

Moin tosamen,

noch een Fraag ut de plattdüütsche Wikipedia:
gifft dat en plattdüütsch Woort för den "Wellensittich"?

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Moin, Heiko!

Bi mi is heet dat "Buttjer" or "Buttje". In Hamborg un Kuntree heet dat ook
so in't Missingsch, hangt sachs mit Ingelsch *budgerigar (budgie*) tosamen.
Later wöör dat denn in Noorddüütschland de bekanntste"Vör"-Naam för Vagels.

Folks, Heiko asks if there's a Low Saxon word for "budgerigar" (= American
English "parakeet").

I told him that in my "book" it's *Buttjer *(["bUtS3`]) or *Buttje **
*(["bUtSe]),
also in Missingsch of Hamburg. I assume that the most used "personal" name
for the birds in Northern German is derived from this, and that it in turn
is derived from English "budgerigar" ~ "budgie". The origin is in a so far
undetermined Australian language, possibly Gamilaraai (*gidjirrigaa*).

I further assume that the birds were introduced to Germany via Hamburg by
sailors with ties to British merchant ships that frequented Australian
ports. They are very popular in Germany (the German name being *
Wellensittich* "undulated parakeet").

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/f7f9856f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 23:18:27 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:18:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.28 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.151827.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varietes" 2007.11.28 (03) [E]

From: "ds" <dstokely at infionline.net>
Subject: language varieties

 I have to add a little experience I had here.  When I was a young lad (way
back in the last century, I know), my father took me south to Georgia where
he was born.  We were sitting in the train station and I heard a loud
mouthed black man talking behind me.  I looked back and didn't see him.
Again, I heard that same black man speaking and turned around.  A careful
search revealed a WHITE MAN speaking black English!  I had an epiphany.  The
blacks I had heard all my life were speaking with a southern accent.

David Stokely

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, David.

I had a similar experience once in an airport when I heard people talk in
West Indian English somewhere in my vicinity. When I finally located the
speakers I saw two European faces and one East Asian face. Then I thought,
"Duh! Of course! Why not?" and I realized that our conditioned mental
associations between language sounds and people's looks have to change with
all those changes we are now witnessing. Of course this includes
"White-talking Blacks" and "Black-talking Whites" in the northern states.

Also, I once met an ethnic Russian with a Chinese accent. Turned out she
belonged to the small Russian minority of China and had learned English from
Chinese teachers at school, which accounts for her having a Chinese accent
rather than a Russian one, although her first language was Russian.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

When I lived in Australia, I used to call our Perth office regularly, and
always spoke to the secretary/PR officer, a woman with a very marked
Jamaican accent. I always envisaged a tall black woman with dreadlocks, but
of course when I went over there I was met by a short very conservatively
dressed white lady. As you say, we are filled with preconceptions.

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language varieties

The parents of "my" family and some of their friends and neighbors in
Israel, all European-born Yiddish speakers, used to get real kicks out of
surprising their visitors of similar background by engaging me in Yiddish
conversations when I showed up. It was a biggish deal at that time *... *One
of them used to say, "*un mit aza ponem, a goyishn!"* ("... and with such a
*goyish* (Gentile) face!").

Things have changed in this regard as well, as more and more German
universities offer Yiddish tracks, even as majors.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/9bf9cf26/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 29 16:28:12 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:28:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.29 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.NOV.2007.082812.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  29 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varietes" 2007.11.28 (03) [E]

Hi all,

David, Ron, I love it when one's language illusions are challenged.

Once I listened to a radio program in the '60s about Afrikaans elsewhere in
the world and heard a young 'black' cattle farmer in Botswana speaking in
Afrikaans. I soon realized my mistake when the guy spoke about getting on
very well with his black Botswana compatriots.

And while visiting the Maritz family in northern rural Natal I wandered one
morning through their rambling old house and heard the happy chatter of Zulu
women making beds. Peeking around the door I found old tannie Maritz to be
the loudest chatter!

Finally, out near the Mozambique border is a small town called Komatiepoort
where they have a fabulous shop selling everything from Shangaan
drums, handmade clay pots and German print material (*Seshoeshoe*) to fresh
sugarcane and unroasted coffeebeans. While I was lost in browsing, a
young girl's voice said '*Is daar iets besonders waarna tannie soek?* and it
was the proprietor's adopted black teenage daughter.

Language varieties or human varieties?

Elsie Zinsser

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071129/8be4d51b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 29 16:26:34 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:26:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.NOV.2007.082634.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  29 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]

Dear Mark, Sandy, Ron & All:

Subject L-Lowlands "Etymology"

Of course, I immediately wanted to know where the word "tattoo" came from.

My first reaction was "What?!" And then I found that the *Oxford English
Dictionary* agrees with it and it all starts making sense:
[In 17th c. *tap-too*, a. Du. *taptoe* in same sense; f. *tap* the tap (of a
cask), + *toe* = *doe toe* 'shut'. So Sw. *tapto*, Sp. (1706) *tatu*. Cf.
Ger. *zapfenstreich *, LG. *tappenslag*, Da. *tappenstreg*, with the first
element the same, and second element meaning 'stroke, beat'.
Although Du. *tap toe* was in military use in our sense 1 in the 17th c.,
there is reason to doubt if this was its original use. *Tap toe* = *doe den
tap toe* 'put the tap to', 'close or turn off the tap', was app. already in
colloquial use for 'shut up! stop! cease!'; Dr. Kluyver points out, in a
play of 1639 from Emden, *Doch hier de tap van toe* = 'but here we shut up',
or 'say no more'.]

I'd just like to cast a bit of military light on this:

The 'tattoo' is associated with nightfall & the last parade exercise, before
curfew. This is the significance to the soldier of the order (to purveyors
of spiritous liquors) "Tap toe!" = "Taps shut!" In the same sense the
British tapman calls out to his guests in the pub, "Time, gentlemen,
please!" When the sutlers hear it they seal their casks & that drink you're
still busy with is your last, @#%&*+...it! Well, back to unit lines, if you
can still walk, & help a buddy if he needs it.

Gesondheid... Hic!

Mark

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071129/7cf94840/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 29 21:50:09 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:50:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.29 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.29.NOV.2007.135009.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Soenke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.28 (07) [E/LS]

An'n Mi., den 28. Nov.'07, hett Ron dit Klock 23.00 schreven:

>> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
>> Subject: LL-L: Lexikon
>>
>> Moin tosamen,
>> noch een Fraag ut de plattdüütsche Wikipedia:
>> gifft dat en plattdüütsch Woort för den "Wellensittich"?
>>
>> Hartlich Gröten,
>> Heiko Evermann
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Moin, Heiko!
>
> Bi mi is heet dat "Buttjer" or "Buttje".

Hi Ron, Heiko, and all,
that bird is a "Buttje", also in my book, but a "Buttjer" is an
affectionate name for a little boy. "Na mien Buttjer, wo wullt du denn so
gau opdaal?" ("Hey little lad, whereto are you going so fast?"). There's
also a verb "(rüm-)buttjern" meaning "to stroll about, walk aimlessly",
possibly related to the staggering walk of little children.

Hoolt sik,
Sönke

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi, Sönke, and thanks for the input! It's really interesting in that it puts
a new spin on it for me and for others that remember a discussion about *
butje* in the distant past.

I personally say *butje* (*Buttje*), though I hear others say *butjer* (*
Buttjer*). I've always assumed it was a case of dialectical distribution.

Furthermore, I tend to say *butje* (*Buttje*) in *both* cases: (1)
'budgerigar' (parakeet), and (2) 'little boy'. I am a *Hamborger Buttje*, as
native males of/from Hamburg are called. (The female equivalent is *Hamborger
Diern*, *Diern* (/deirn/) being 'girl'.)

The most frequently heard (folk?) etymology connects the word *Buttje* in
the diminutive with *but* (*Butt*) 'flatfish', 'but(t)' (e.g., halibut).

Now that you pointed out a possible connection with the verb /butjer-/ *
(rüm-)butjern* it brings to mind the noun *but* (*Butt*) in the sense of
'boot', which we also use in Missingsch and in Miussingsch-colored German,
such as *Gummibutten* for 'rubber boots', 'wellingtons'. Right now I can't
find this word in any dictionary. This makes me wonder if it's a
Hamburg-specific word, if it began as an English loan, and if in the sense
of 'little Hamburg boy' it was inspired by this locally specific word. So
it's this comical image of a little boy that stomps about with his large
boots on (*lütt(j)en jung mit grote butten*/*butjes an*), in other words *'n
lütten butjer* that "butjers" about. This makes so much more sense to me!

If this holds any water, it would be very similar to the nickname of Emperor
Gaius Iulius Caesar Germanicus (CE 12-41): *Caligula *"Little Boot" because
as a little tyke (before he developed into the poor, mentally ill piece of
work that fascinates people to this day) he stomped around in military
leather half-boots called *caligae* (plural of *caliga*,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligae).

Back to the focus! I now suspect that in some dialects *butje* 'budgerigar'
and *butjer* 'little boy' fused; both came to be called one or the other.

Good one, Sönke!

Kumpelmenten!

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071129/dd3fefdc/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 15:14:43 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:14:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.071443.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.29 (01) [E]

So is this why the song played at lights out (as well as at military
funerals) is called "Taps"?

Kevin Caldwell

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]

Dear Mark, Sandy, Ron & All:

Subject L-Lowlands "Etymology"

Of course, I immediately wanted to know where the word "tattoo" came from.

My first reaction was "What?!" And then I found that the *Oxford English
Dictionary* agrees with it and it all starts making sense:

[In 17th c. *tap-too*, a. Du. *taptoe* in same sense; f. *tap* the tap (of a
cask), + *toe* = *doe toe* 'shut'. So Sw. *tapto*, Sp. (1706) *tatu*. Cf.
Ger. *zapfenstreich *, LG. *tappenslag*, Da. *tappenstreg*, with the first
element the same, and second element meaning 'stroke, beat'.

Although Du. *tap toe* was in military use in our sense 1 in the 17th c.,
there is reason to doubt if this was its original use. *Tap toe* = *doe den
tap toe* 'put the tap to', 'close or turn off the tap', was app. already in
colloquial use for 'shut up! stop! cease!'; Dr. Kluyver points out, in a
play of 1639 from Emden, *Doch hier de tap van toe* = 'but here we shut up',
or 'say no more'.]

I'd just like to cast a bit of military light on this:

The 'tattoo' is associated with nightfall & the last parade exercise, before
curfew. This is the significance to the soldier of the order (to purveyors
of spiritous liquors) "Tap toe!" = "Taps shut!" In the same sense the
British tapman calls out to his guests in the pub, "Time, gentlemen,
please!" When the sutlers hear it they seal their casks & that drink you're
still busy with is your last, @#%&*+...it! Well, back to unit lines, if you
can still walk, & help a buddy if he needs it.

Gesondheid... Hic!
 Mark

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/2a793df1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 20:52:29 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:52:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.125229.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: rick denkers <info at d-denkers.speedlinq.nl>
Subject: little rhyme

Moin,

In the dairy from my father, who passed away in 2003, I found this
little rhyme:

Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
De Teller häft e jildne Rand,
Fru Wirtin häft e milde Hand.

Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"

Anyone who recognizes it?

Rick Denkers
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/8ab6b4eb/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 21:03:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:03:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.130307.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]

Rick wrote:
>Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
>the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"
>
>Anyone who recognizes it?

Yes, it means "golden".

Gabriele Kahn

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/9c1cf287/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 22:05:44 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:05:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2007.11.30 (04) [E/F]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.140544.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: Songs

Funny: Hee Sjoerd, a Frisian version of the Beatles' Hey Jude.
Sjoerd (Sieuwerd) is a very typical Frisian male first name in the
Netherlands. I'll translate it for you in English

Hee Sjoerd, by Tineke Hoekstra

Hee Sjoerd, it komt wol goed.
Nim in min liet en skriuw it better.
Ferjit net en lit har ta yn dyn hert,
Begjin wer opnij, mar folle better.

(Hey S, it will be alright
Take a bad song, and write it better
Don't forget and let it into your heart
Start all anew, but much better)

Hee Sjoerd, wês net benaud.
Do allinne, do kinst har fine.
En fynst har, fertrou har dan ek folslein,
Dat is 't begjin fan folle better.

(hey S, don't be afraid
Do it alone, you can find her
and find her, trust her completely
then it's the beginning of a lot better)

En al dy tiid docht it dy sear, hee Sjoerd, kom op,
Tôgje de wrâld net op dyn skouders.
Wês no net grutsk en doch net gek, dan komst der net,
Dan makkest de wrâld allinne kâlder.

(and all that time it hurt you, hey S, come on
don't bear the world on your shoulders,
don't be so proud and don't be crazy, otherwise you won't make it,
then you'll just make the world colder)

Hee Sjoerd, doch it foar my.
Gean der hinne en nimme har gau mei.
Ferjit net en lit har ta yn dyn hert.
Begjin wer opnij, mar folle better.

(Hey S, do it for me
Go there and take her with you soon
Don't forget to let her into your heart
Start all over, but a lot better)

Tink der noch mar ris goed oer nei, hee Sjoerd, begjin,
Do wachtest op immen dy't dy stipet.
It leit no allegear by dy, hee Sjoerd, set troch.
Do hast in hiel lyts triuwke nedich.

(just think it over really good again, hey S, begin
you're waiting for someone who ?s you
it all lays in your hands now, hey S, hold on
you need a very small ?)

Hee Sjoerd, it komt wol goed.
Nim in min liet en skriuw it better.
Ferjit net, fertrou har altyd folslein,
In nij begjin, mar folle

(Hey S, it will be alright
take a bad song and write it better
don't forget, alwaus trust her completely
a new beginning, but much..)

Better, better, better, better, better, better, oh&

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, hee Sjoerd&

(better better better oh, na na na na na n na na, na na na na hey S)

Ingmar
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/4cfbc3ed/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 23:24:24 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:24:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (05) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.152424.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?"

Beste Rick,

You wrote:
> Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
> de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
> De Teller häft e jildne Rand,
> Fru Wirtin häft e milde Hand.
>
> Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
> the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"
>
> Anyone who recognizes it?

Maybe jildne < guldene = gouden?

Initial g>j can be heard in Ripuarian, Berlin, ?Mennonite?.
u>i is due to unrounding, and can be found in many Germanic dialects.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be >
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]

Beste,
Ik denk dat 'jildne" gulden, gouden is; er zijn trouwens vele borden met een
gouden rand! Die jotisering komt zo vaak voor, vb. geluw = yellow.
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

From: rick denkers < info at d-denkers.speedlinq.nl>
Subject: little rhyme

Moin,

In the dairy from my father, who passed away in 2003, I found this
little rhyme:

Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
De Teller häft e jildne Rand,
Fru Wirtin häft e milde Hand.

Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"

Anyone who recognizes it?

Rick Denkers

----------

From: Dick Visscher <hgsvisscher at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]

Hi Rick,

I reckon it means "gilded" (gold plated). In Dutch we would say "vergulde".
Many Berliners use a j pronunciation for words starting with the letter g
e.g. Gut (=good) is pronounced as Jut. The way you spell this words reminds
me of that phenomenon. However, I am Dutch, not German so I may be utterly
wrong. The little poem is not hard to understand.
Cheers

Dick Visscher
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/ecb3818e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  1 14:26:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 07:26:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.31 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.NOV.2007.072653.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  31 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (02) [E/]

Re Jonny's film script: Jonny it is brilliant, full of Lowland humor and
pratfalls. You should really try and sell it to Hollywood and of course it
should be spoken in Low Saxon. Thanks again for the belly laugh. Jacqueline

----------

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (02) [E/]

From wim verdoold

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle Netherlands,

Hi,
LoL, I m  not going to respond to the discussion about the word dwalen I
think..hehe

Wim Verdoold.

( van der dole = dole a place to hide  back in the fields, for the ones
guarding the harvest against wild life I m told, hence dolen as being far
from home?  So a dole is a dwelling place alright, a hut against the rain..)

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (02) [E/]
 Haai, Elsie

Subject: LL-L "Etymology

"Om in 'n dwaal te wees"

Ja, Elsie, soos ek skryf het hierdie woord selfs in wesenlike gebruik (ieder
as die figuratief) tot in Wes Australi? uitversprei. Daar het my doopvader
die uitdrukking in die laat vyftigerjare te?gekom, sommer dekades voor die
W?reldwye uitwyking van ons volkie, "We're dwaaling around, y'know, only *we
* say 'walkabout'.

Die Uwe,
Mark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071101/379e0e61/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  1 15:35:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:35:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.01 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.NOV.2007.083533.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to November 2007!

And welcome to all of you who joined or rejoined us since the beginning of
October! At the end of this message is a list of your places of residence.

Folks, please don't forget about our activities:

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
   - Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/ )
   - Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)
   - Lowlands Song Contest (lowlands-l.net/contest/)

I will say things about them in separate messages as the need arises.

Membership:
Please, folks, read and understand the rules and guidelines! It's really
important. You find them at our main website (lowlands-l.net/rules.php).

As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
   your view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.
   2. You must always give us your name, given name and family name.
   3. If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please
   give us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
   something in case we get error messages from that server.
   4. You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L
   wrote:" simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.
   5. Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than
   making up your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please
   make sure "Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.
   6. DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.
   Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their
   names with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting
   is not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
   even if you do not put them right next to each other.

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

   1. Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix
   things up, please.
   2. Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
   responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
   apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.
   3. Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
   response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
   not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
   version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
   relevant to your response.
   4. Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions
   are. If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give
   "Lowlands-L" as the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and
   you owe authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.
   5. Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
   sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.

Address Changes:
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address.

Temporary Absence
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
Lowlands-L lowlands-l.net

***

Welcome to those of you who joined us since 1 October 2007!

   Belgium (Belgi?, Belgique, Belgien):
        Flemish Brabant (Vlaams-Brabant):
             Dilbeek [1]
   Canada:
        Ontario:
             Toronto [1]
             Waterloo [1]
   Germany (Deutschland):
        Schleswig-Holstein (Sleswig-Holsteen,
        Slaswik-Holstiinj, Slesvig-Holsten):
             Hemdingen [1]
   Pakistan (???????):
        Punjab (?????):
             Lahore [1] (????? ,????)
   Puerto Rico:
        Mayag?ez:
             San Germ?n [1]
   South Africa:
        Gauteng:
             Pretoria [1]
   United Kingdom:
        Scotland (Alba):
             Edinburgh (Embro, D?n ?ideann):
                  Edinburgh (Embro, D?n ?ideann) [1]
   United States of America:
        Arizona:
             Tucson [1]
        California:
             Santa Ana [1]
        New York:
             Buffalo [1]
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071101/46c9b5a7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  1 15:43:10 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:43:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.01 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.NOV.2007.084310.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (02) [E/]

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.31 (01) [E/S]

Here is one of the cases where English is richer than Afrikaans in an
ancient survival. Mind you, we have kept 'woon' & its cognates in all the
other Lowlands languages including the Anglo Saxon  & Modern English hasn't.

Yrs,
Mark

We haven't completely lost it, though it's pretty rare now.  The word "wont"
as in " He was wont to visit the pub on Sundays" actually comes from *wunian
*; it now means "accustomed to" or "in the habit of", but it earlier meant
specifically "accustomed to a place". I had an uncle who, on moving to a new
house after decades in an ancient terrace house, said was "gettin' wunted"
to the new one.

Paul

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071101/31059ceb/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  1 23:37:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:37:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.01 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.NOV.2007.163726.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.31 (03) [A/E]

Wim says: ( van der dole = dole a place to hide  back in the fields, for the
ones guarding the harvest against wild life I m told, hence dolen as being
far from home?  So a dole is a dwelling place alright, a hut against the
rain..)

Ah wonderful! I forgot the word "doolhof" which is labyrinth/maze in Dutch.

Wim, ze bouwen hier (VS) doolhoven in de maisvelden om deze tijd van het
jaar! Jacqueline

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071101/2771e0c3/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  2 15:16:43 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:16:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.02 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.NOV.2007.081643.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  02 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.01 (04) [D/E]

Ja leuk!

[Wim Verdoold]

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Jonny,

You wrote:
> thanks for all your interesting thoughts and informations about the
> mystic development of 'to dwell'.
> Meanwhile I'm becoming suspicious that in ancient time there may have
> been two similar words which melted at any point but the etymologicans
> didn't realize.

Yep, etymologists also err sometimes (pun intended :-D ).

Something similar was probably also the case in a Brabantish word for
"wandering":

"(rond-) ra(n)ddolen"

which could be a contamination of:

   * randuinen: Kiliaan (1599) has "randuynen", Currere cum impetu:
     effuse vel profus? currere. /gal. randonner
     /http://www.dbnl.nl/tekst/kili001etym01_01/kili001etym01_01_0026.htm
   * dolen: to wander about

French "randonner" < Germanic "Rand"
http://francois.gannaz.free.fr/Littre/xmlittre.php?requete=r589

Further research brought up that "rand" (border, margin, edge) would
still be in use in some English dialects and "random" (E) is a first
cousin. Also note the South-African currency "rand" < Witwatersrand ~
White-waters-ridge.

Enough "ranting" already...oops, "to rant" may also be related: <
"rand(t)en" (Dutch) < rennen (plus t-suffix), "to run" (E)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Paul,

You wrote:
>
>     Here is one of the cases where English is richer than Afrikaans in
>     an ancient survival. Mind you, we have kept 'woon' & its cognates
>     in all the other Lowlands languages including the Anglo Saxon  &
>     Modern English hasn't.
>
>     Yrs,
>     Mark
>
> We haven't completely lost it, though it's pretty rare now.  The word
> "wont" as in " He was wont to visit the pub on Sundays" actually comes
> from /wunian/; it now means "accustomed to" or "in the habit of", but
> it earlier meant specifically "accustomed to a place". I had an uncle
> who, on moving to a new house after decades in an ancient terrace
> house, said was "gettin' wunted" to the new one.

In Brabantish, we would say that your uncle was "zijn oud huis nog niet
ontwoon". "Gewoon" is an adjective that means "being used to", whereas
"ontwoon" is quite the opposite, "having lost the habit" (note: wonen >
gewoon and (in)habit > have the habit, usus).

The standard noun "gewoonte" often becomes "gewente" in many (Southern)
dialects (< p.p. of "wennen" ?~? wonen).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:
>
> Luc:
>
> OK, I digress, but can the Ural-Altaic language family also be explained
> in terms of one common prehistoric activity?
>
> Wow! "Ural-Altaic"?! Some people still reject the Altaic hypothesis.
> The Ural-Altaic hypothesis, which was en vogue in the early part of
> the 20th century, was at one point deemed "debunked." Despite
> sometimes astonishing morphological similarities and apparent remnants
> of a sound correspondence system, some people vehemently resist any
> type of "unification" attempts, even more so when it involves alleged
> Indo-European connections and older researchers of European descent.
> (I guess you can imagine what happens when unification hypotheses
> involve both Indo-European and African languages, such as the
> Nostratic hypothesis that seeks to link Altaic, Uralic, Indo-European,
> Semitic and Bantu, many including Kartvelian and Dravidian as well,
> leave alone hypotheses that go way beyond that.)

Very interesting articles in "Eurasisches Magazin" on this matter:

   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=713
   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=30603
   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=121003
   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=101703
   * http://www.eurasischesmagazin.de/artikel/?artikelID=20040313

Too bad they still use the term "Indogermanisch" though; or would that
be 'cause some view it like a brandname, once tagged by German scientists?

One of the articles reflects on what could possibly be the "Urheimat" of
all Germanic peoples. Prof. J?rgen Udolph considered names for rivers to
be the oldest linguistic layer and apparently found the biggest density
just north of the Mittelgebirge (and not in Scandinavia or
Schleswig-Holstein). If this is true, it would mean that Scandinavia got
populated by people migrating from south to north (and not the other way
round like I had always believed)!

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Luc!

Thanks for those interesting links. I looked at them briefly, will have to
read them in detail later, and I hope other that read German will too. As
you can see, I am not the only person that talks about Eurasia.

You wrote:

The standard noun "gewoonte" often becomes "gewente" in many (Southern)
dialects (< p.p. of "wennen" ?~? wonen).

Yes, this is interesting, isn't it? In Low Saxon, the root of the verb
meaning 'to reside' is waan- (wanen, wahnen, wohnen, waonen, etc.), to that
of 'to accustom' is wen- (wennen).

Ik waan achter d'n dyk.
(Ik wahn achter'n Diek.)
I live behind the dike.

Sey wil geyrn in dey stad wanen.
(Se will geern in de Stadt wahnen.)
She'd love to live in the city.

Hey har lang up'n landen waand.
(He harr lang up'n Lannen wahnt.)
He had lived in the country for a long time.

Daar b?n ik nich an wend.
(Daar b?n ik nich an wennt.)
I'm not accustomed to that.

Dat schulst d' dy af-wennen.
(Dat schullst di afwennen.)
You ought to kick that habit.

So there seems to be a disconnect. Right? Different vowels, which could be
the result of umlauting, and a long vowel versus a short vowel.

Old Saxon has won?n as one of the verbs for 'to reside'. It has giwono for
'accustomed' and giwono or giwonoh?d for 'habit', but then it has wennianand gi
wennian for 'to accustom'. This looks like umlauting and shortening. Compare
German wohnen 'to reside', Gewohnheit 'habit' versus gew?hnen 'accustomed',
but Old German giwonan 'to reside', giwona,  gewonaheit 'habit', and wennenand
giwennen 'to accustom', Old Low Franconian wonen 'to reside' versus wennen
'to accustom', and Old English wuna, gewuna 'habit', gewuna 'acquired
habit', wun, gewun, gewuna 'accustomed', wennan, wenian, gewennan,
gewenian'to accustom'. Old Frisian may be shedding some more light on
this:
wennia, wunia 'to reside', wana, wenh?d, wenich?d, wenithe, wunich?d'habit',
wun, wunich 'accustomed', wenna 'accustom', similarly Old Norse (which does
not have a cognate for 'to reside') vandi, vani, venja 'habit',
vanr'accustomed',
venja 'accustom'.

This makes it look as though some sort of ancient vowel alternation applied,
also that within this group "custom" and "habit" preceded "residing."

Have a nice weekend!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071102/45a93863/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  2 16:38:37 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:38:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.02 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.NOV.2007.093837.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

Since yesterday I have been receiving what looks like delivery failure
messages with reference to all Yahoo addresses on our list.

After each address there is this tag:

Deferred: 452 Too many recipients <<< 452 Too many recipients

At the end there is mention about "white-listing", but I don't know what
that means:

X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (
listserv.linguistlist.org [164.76.102.107])

I'm afraid our listserver's address got on the Yahoo SPAM list, but I'm not
sure this is so. There is always a risk of this if even one person
consistently hits the SPAM button upon receipt of our mail. I know that some
people have done so in the past. It's a really aggressive and nasty
alternative to unsubscribing.

The complicating factor is that Yahoo is one of those companies that has
grown too big for its breeches and is thus very difficult to communicate and
work with when it comes to things like this.

Here's my request.

If you are subscribed via a Yahoo address, please be so kind as to let me
know (at <lowlands.list at gmail.com> under "Yahoo address") if you have been
getting LL-L mail yesterday and today. (So far today, there has been one
"Etymology" issue.)

If you respond to this and have more to contribute, something that may be of
interest to the membership at large, please respond in the form of a posting
submission (as usual).

Thanks in advance.

I can say that I have received all issues at my subscribed Yahoo address. So
I don't know what all this is about. Any ideas?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071102/3e96fdd2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov  3 04:08:02 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:08:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.02 (03) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.NOV.2007.210802.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 October 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.02 (01) [D/E]

Dear Lowlanders,



It is a very exciting time to be alive. There are so many investigators
around the world opening our minds to what is happening. What I write here
may seem like a series of disjointed facts and opinions, but in my mind, all
relate to a unitary origin of human language.



Luc Hellinckx quoted a communication from R. F. Hahn about some of  approaches
to this subject and added 5 links to articles in "Eurasische Magazin" on the
topic.



The first of these begins:



In der Bibel im ersten Buch Mose wird erz?hlt, die Menschen h?tten zur Zeit
der ?Erschaffung der Welt" mit ?einerlei Sprache und Zunge" geredet.



I have always believed that the myths and legends of ancient scriptures
around the world reflect realities that need to be investigated.



Further, in a private letter to me, Victor H. Mair expressed the opinion
that ancient Chinese and Sanskrit either came from a common language, or one
came from the other. He edits the "Sino-Platonic Papers", which published a
monograph by Tsung-tung Chang you can find at:



http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp007_old_chinese.pdf



Here Chang juxtaposes Bernhard Karlgren's four periods in the development of
the Chinese language with lots of Julius Pokorny's "Indogermanisches
Etymologisches W?rterbuch"? pages and pages of correspondences of stems
between the two language families in tabular form.



In Robin Dunbar, "The Human Story" 2004 ISBN 0-571-22303-6, language appears
first in Homo sapiens half a million years ago, based on the size of
foramina in the skull, use of tools, burial practices and other
anthropological observations. He associates language with laughter. Chimps
have something like laughter during play, but when a human tells a joke,
teller and audience release endorphins in each of their brains, rewarding
everybody, improving their health and ability to cope. He emphasizes
"intentionality" or "theory of mind" or "mind-reading" in relation to the
beginning of language and religion. If I tell you what I think you want to
hear, that's second degree intentionality. If I tell something to you,
because I think you will tell Susie and that will change her behavior to me,
that's fourth degree. To organize a religion one needs fifth or higher
degree, to participate, fourth.



It's long been known that creole languages around the world?let me make an
aside: creole languages arise where people are transported to other lands
and have no opportunity to speak their native language. This has usually
occurred under conditions of slavery. The slaves are ordered about in the
master's language and they learn the meaning of the commands via the whip.
These unfortunates have invented languages using terms from the masters'
speech, but have elaborated them into a language that seems to obey the
neuroscience of the Homo sapiens brain, rather than any known language.



That is, they?whether orientals in Hawai'i or Africans in the Caribbean, and
I guess that includes the Gullah Dialect of southeastern US, too, quickly
develop an aspective, tenseless language that satisfies their needs. And it
comes right out of their human brains!



Mitochondrial DNA (female inheritance) and Y chromosome studies (male
inheritance) correlate with migration out of Africa and the spread of
agriculture across the temperate zone, both activities unthinkable without
language.



http://www.archaeology.org/9609/abstracts/dna.html



The Eve study examined mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), which is passed only by
mothers to their offspring. The researchers, Rebecca Cann, Mark Stoneking,
and the late Allan Wilson, estimated that the ancestor of all surviving mt
DNA types lived between 140,000 and 290,000 years ago. When did the
migrations from Africa take place? They dated the oldest cluster of mtDNA
types with no modern African representation to between 90,000 and 180,000
years ago. These populations might have left Africa at about that time, but
the mtDNA data could not determine exactly when.



Of particular interest to Lowlanders might be Bryan Sykes popular book
"Saxons, Vikings, and Celts", 2006, ISBN 13:978-0-393-06268-7 and his
website http://www.bloodoftheisles.net. He traces the inheritance of
subjects in the British Isles: mtDNA to seven matriarchs and Y-chromosomes
to five patriarchs. The oldest British mtDNA comes from a matriarch of
45,000 years ago, apparently living in the area of Greece and given by Sykes
the name of Ursula. Their commonest mtDNA comes from a matriarch of 20,000
years ago. Sykes summarizes by saying that the Brits are basically Celts.



Jorge Potter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071102/0507d7ac/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov  3 18:32:13 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:32:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.03 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.NOV.2007.113213.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  03 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.02 (02) [E]

 Beste Ron,

Du schreyvst:

After each address there is this tag:

Deferred: 452 Too many recipients <<< 452 Too many recipients

At the end there is mention about "white-listing", but I don't know what
that means:

X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0
(listserv.linguistlist.org[164.76.102.107
])

Have a look here- might be it helps:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelist

Allerbest!
Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Thanks a lot, Jonny. That did help a lot. Apparently, it's a good thing
being whitelisted.

It looks as though our subscribers with Yahoo accounts have been getting
their LL-L.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071103/172e592b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov  3 23:33:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 16:33:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.03 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.NOV.2007.163307.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  03 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.26 (06) [E/LS]

24.10.2007 schrayv Heiko Evermann:
 > Wat is en Siedlung, op Platt ...

Beste Heiko,

proofreading "Mittelniederdeutsches Handw?rterbuch" of August L?bben
I found another exammple of "Siedlung" in LS:

"an-sedel (anesetel), m. Ansiedelung,
habitatio, domicilium."

Best wishes,
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071103/c5c4d801/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  4 05:09:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:09:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.NOV.2007.220953.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  03 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
Subject: origin of 'Schore"

Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England in
Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of Schore.
 I am not a linguist, but I have found the following information from
various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on the validity of what I
have gathered:

*A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish, shallow
water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There are also inland
marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt level because of
evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is described as a Dutch word
that refers to that part of a salt marsh covered by high tides.  'Schore' is
an example of a Low Saxon loanword.  It is one of several words from the
areas of shipping and trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon
language of the Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an
alliance of trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly
over the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of Northern
Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early modern period,
between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant language of trade was
Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a dialect with significant impact
for countries involved in the trade, particularly the larger Scandinavian
languages. Middle Low Saxon and Middle Dutch have many identical words, the
separation between the two languages was not as clear at the time as it is
now, and the British Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and
Hanseatic traders and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English
could be from either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected <
_schore_'?', cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
land','cliff', 'bluff').*

Thanks very much Lowlanders,

Ted Shore

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Welcome to the neighborhood, Ted!

That looks like a difficult one there because of all the possibilities which
you have already explored.

Let's see what folks come up with.

Middle Dutch and Middle Saxon are indeed both candidates when it comes to
many Continental Germanic loans in English. Also, at the time the two
languages were regarded as being on a continuum, pretty much as dialects of
one language. Dutch speakers tended to refer to Middle Saxon and Early
Modern Low Saxon as *Oostersch* (Eastern), besides *Saksisch*.

At any rate, it's great you joined us.

Regards.
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071103/1451e3d5/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  4 18:19:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:19:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.NOV.2007.111955.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

Ted wrote:
Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England in
Lincolnshire.

Don't like to be pedantic (really!) but Lincolnshire is on the east coast of
England

solidly 'Germanic' in medieval times whereas the west coast still retained
populations of non-germanic speakers.

Heather [Randall]

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
 > From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England in
Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of Schore.

a - De Brabandere, "Woordenboek van de familienamen in Belgi? en
Noord-Frankrijk", Grondig herziene en vermeerdere uitgave, Veen, 2003, gives
(*family names in Belgium*):

Schoor, van: van Schoor(e)n, van Schoren, Wansc(h)oor:
P!N Schoor (NL),
      in Hoegaarden (VB)
      of Broechem (A);
      Schore (WV,Z).
Zie ook: Verschoor(e)
1218 Johannes de Score
1220 Erlebaldus miles de Scora
1261 Thirinus de Scora = 1263 Tieren van Score, WV (DF XIV)
1326 Gillis van Scoren, Ip. (BEELE)
1433 Heinric van Score; Kh (DEKEYSER)

A Province of Antwerp (Belgium)
NL Province of Limburg (Netherlands)
VB Province of Flemish Brabant (Belgium)
WV Province of West-Flanders  (Belgium)
Z Province of Zeeland (Netherlands)

b - Further, from:
Herbillon & Germain, Dictionnaire des noms de famile en Belgique romane,
1996, Cr?dit Communal, vol 2:

*Frequency of families in Belgium* (and split-up per province).
Families are only listed when more than 100 families with exactly the same
orthography for the very same name are occuring in BElgium=

De Sc(h)o(o)r(e): not listed
Schoorens: 119 (Belgium), of which 56 (East-Flanders)
Schoors: 378 (Belgium), of which 252 (Antwerp)
Van Schoor: 472 (Belgium), of which 207 (Antwerp), 158 (East-Flanders)
Vanschooren: 119 (Belgium), of which 104 (Belg. Limburg)

Pse be aware that due to name translations between Dutch, French and Latin
the prefixes "de" and "van" are often interchanged in "Belgium ancien
r?gime". Orthography was not consistent, but an on the spot transcription of
the spoken name.

c - Cf. Also schor in the WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal), pasted
from the CDROM
(Dictionary of *16th-19th century Dutch*):

*SCHOR (I) ? SCHORRE* ?, znw. vr. en onz. Mnl. *schor,* onz., *schorre,* vr.
en onz. (?), mnd. *schor(e),* onz., ook kust, oever, m. eng. *schore,* eng.
*shore,* kust, oever. Van denzelfden stam als Scheren (I), verg. ook SCHAAR
(VI) en SCHOOR.
) Buitendijksche aangeslibde grond, onbedijkte (en bij hoog water
onderloopende) aangeslibde kleibank. || Dat de *scorren* ligghende buuten
zeedycken ghemeene metter zee, staende of gheweest hebbende ter ghifte ofte
disposicie vanden grave ..., gherekent ende ghehouden zyn over catheil,
Cost. Vrije v. Brugge 1, 760 (a?. 1522). Dat my meest voordeel gaf, dat quam
my van het dijcken, Als wy den souten stroom bedwongen om te wijcken: Hier
kocht ick *schorren* toe of lang verdroncken lant, CATS 3, 61 b. Eensdeels
op den dyk, eensdeels beneevens dien op het *schor*, HOOFT, N. H. 1171. (Een
man) die des avonds een fuik in de Meer gezet hadde, aan 't* schor* van het
land, LEEGHWATER, HaarlemmerMeerb. ? 4. Ick hebbe wel op gorsingen
ofte *schorren
*geweest daer geen creecken en waeren, VIERLINGH, Tract. v. Dyck. 5. Men
vind voor deeze Landen nog verscheide banken, die by laag water droog
liggen, en aldaar met den naam van *Schorren* bekend staan, waar onder
de *schorren
van Strijen* de voornaamsten zyn, BERKHEY, N. H. 1, 12. Zijne onderneming
der bedijking der *Goereesche schorren*, BILD., Br. 4, 135. Indijking van *
schorren* of buitengronden, droogmaking van meren, waren (v??r de veertiende
eeuw) onbekend, G. DE VRIES, Holl. Noorderkw. 5. Kwelders, *schorren*,
aanwassen en slikken, Versl. Landb. 1910, 4, 4.
? Op hooge en grazige *schorren* worden schapen geweid. || Op de*
schorren*mijne Schapen Vinde ick in een groot getal, HONDIUS,
Moufeschans 277. Moet
onsen acker dor staen; En Boomgaard aan den quijn: Sal 't schaap niet weer
ter *schorr *gaan, V. LODENSTEYN, Uytsp. 309. ...

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071104/43d0e8d8/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  4 21:10:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:10:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (02) [D]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.NOV.2007.141008.0700.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

Beste Ted, Ron en allen,
Een schorre is inderdaad een stuk land dat buitendijks, zou en op de zee
gewonnen kan zijn. Wordt het nog regelmatig door zeewater overspoeld dan is
het een slikke.
De Oostendse sportvelden hebben de naam De Schorre.
Interessant voor jou, Ted, is dat er op korte afstand van de zee, ten zuiden
van de lijn Nieuwpoort-Oostende, een polderdorp is dat Schore heet. De
familienamen Verschore, Verschoore, Verschooren, Verschorre,  Van Schoor,
Vanschoors, komen bij ons veelvuldig voor!
De Hanzeatische Liga kende vele belangrijke medesteden zoals L?beck (HL),
Bremen (HB), Hamburg (HH) en bij ons Brugge. Als ik het mij goed herinner
was de hoofdplaats evenwel Bergen in huidig Noorwegen!
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck, Oostende in West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Genealogy

Beste Roland,

De hoofdstad (en "koningin") van de Hanzeatische Liga in het oorspronkelijk
gebied was L?beck. Bergen was een van de hoofdkantoren (praktisch
ambassades) buiten het Hanzeatische gebied. De andere hoofdkantoren waren in
Brugge, Londen (Steelyard) en Novgorod.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071104/d0c1bf7b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 06:47:32 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:47:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.04 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.NOV.2007.224732.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at gmail.com >

Dear Lowlanders,

there has been some historic discussions in Cornwall. After a long division
into 4 competing orthographies those 300+ people who can speak this language

had finally agreed to a commission to sort things out. This commission has
now made its recommendation for a "Single Written Form" (SWF): Kernewek
Dasunys (http://dasunys.net/)

More news on this topic in
http://cornishstannaryparliament.co.uk//resources//article.php?story=20071018164441653
or
http://dasunys.net/negys.htm
Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071104/79484c39/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 06:49:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:49:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.04 (04) [A]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.NOV.2007.224948.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Haai julle,

En nou wonder ek of die Afrikaanse woord 'skor' (hees of rasperige stem)
die verband hou met 'schorre' nie, en in die sin dat die oorspronklike
woordbetekenis dalk 'grof' / 'nie glad' beteken?

Elsie Zinsser

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071104/8fb7876b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 15:21:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:21:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.072153.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (02) [D]

Op zondag 04-11-2007 om 14:10 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Lowlands-L
List:
> From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
>
> Beste Ted, Ron en allen,
> Een schorre is inderdaad een stuk land dat buitendijks, zou en op de
> zee gewonnen kan zijn. Wordt het nog regelmatig door zeewater
> overspoeld dan is het een slikke.
> De Oostendse sportvelden hebben de naam De Schorre.
> Interessant voor jou, Ted, is dat er op korte afstand van de zee, ten
> zuiden van de lijn Nieuwpoort-Oostende, een polderdorp is dat Schore
> heet. De familienamen Verschore, Verschoore, Verschooren, Verschorre,
>  Van Schoor, Vanschoors, komen bij ons veelvuldig voor!
> De Hanzeatische Liga kende vele belangrijke medesteden zoals L?beck
> (HL), Bremen (HB), Hamburg (HH) en bij ons Brugge. Als ik het mij goed
> herinner was de hoofdplaats evenwel Bergen in huidig Noorwegen!
> Toetnoasteki,
> Roland Desnerck, Oostende in West-Vlaanderen

Ook in Zuid Beveland (Zeeland) ligt een plaatsje Schore.
Grtz,
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/d34d5867/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 15:52:24 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:52:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.075224.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.04 (04) [A]

Hi!

Schor ( skor) Means I think your voice feels like it has been sand dusted
with sand paper

Schuren, (to sandpaper a piece of wood),

Wim [Verdoold]

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle nederland

-----------

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

> From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
>
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England
> in Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of
> Schore.  I am not a linguist, but I have found the following
> information from various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on
> the validity of what I have gathered:
>
> A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish,
> shallow water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There are
> also inland marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt
> level because of evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is
> described as a Dutch word that refers to that part of a salt marsh
> covered by high tides.  'Schore' is an example of a Low Saxon
> loanword.  It is one of several words from the areas of shipping and
> trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon language of the
> Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an alliance of
> trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly over
> the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of
> Northern Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early
> modern period, between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant
> language of trade was Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a
> dialect with significant impact for countries involved in the trade,
> particularly the larger Scandinavian languages. Middle Low Saxon and
> Middle Dutch have many identical words, the separation between the two
> languages was not as clear at the time as it is now, and the British
> Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and Hanseatic traders
> and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English could be from
> either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected < _schore_'?',
> cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
> land','cliff', 'bluff').
>
> Thanks very much Lowlanders,
>
> Ted Shore

 In Zeelandic and Flemish, schor is an intertidal area that only some
times a month is flooded (around full and dark moon).

Slik, another intertidal area is flooded every day and is situated
between lowtide and hightide.(In the north slikken are wadden)
It is interesting that schorre and slikke also are used in French.

In the dutch provinces Noord Brabant and Zuid Holland schor is named:
gors. In the north of Netherland the same area has the name kwelder.

An inlet in these intertidal area's is here in Zeeland called a kreek /
kreke (E:creek). In the north it's a priel.

Regards
Jakob(Jaap)
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ah, Wim! You may have nailed it. Ever since Elsie asked her question about
Afrikaans skor I've been twisting and wring my little brain and was still
mystified.

If your hypothesis is correct, then this is a cognate of the following, all
with the meaning 'to scour', 'to rub hard in order to clean or shine':

Modern Low Saxon: *schuyrn* (sch??rn, *sch?ern*)
Middle Saxon: *sch?ren*
Modern Dutch: *schuren*, *schuieren*
Middle Dutch: *sch?ren*
Modern German: *scheuern * (< MS?)
Modern English:* *to scour (< MD/MS?)
Middle English: *scoure*, *scowre*, *skoure*
Danish:* skure* (< MS?)
Middle Swedish: *skura* (< MS?)

The people of the *Oxford English Dictionary* suspect that Middle Dutch
and/or Middle Saxon developed *sch?ren *from Old French *escurer* (> Modern
French *?curer*), probably from Vulgar Latin *excurare* (> Medieval *escurare,
scurare*), based on *cura* 'care' which in Medieval Latin also came to mean
'to clean'.

I would have made the leap if the word had been **skuur *or **skuir *in
Afrikaans.

Jaap, in Low Saxon of Germany, *slik* (*Slick*) means 'mud', 'silt',
'slime', also 'mudflat'; same for German *Schlick* (< Low Saxon?, for
otherwise I'd expect **Schlich*). These are related to English "slick" and
"sleek".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/df3f80dd/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 15:55:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:55:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]
In-Reply-To: <57c981290711050752t45b4f1bdj713db312dffa41b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.075507.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.04 (04) [A]

Hi!

Schor ( skor) Means I think your voice feels like it has been sand dusted
with sand paper

Schuren, (to sandpaper a piece of wood),

Wim [Verdoold]

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle nederland

-----------

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

> From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca >
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
>
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England
> in Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of
> Schore.  I am not a linguist, but I have found the following
> information from various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on
> the validity of what I have gathered:
>
> A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish,
> shallow water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There are
> also inland marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt
> level because of evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is
> described as a Dutch word that refers to that part of a salt marsh
> covered by high tides.  'Schore' is an example of a Low Saxon
> loanword.  It is one of several words from the areas of shipping and
> trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon language of the
> Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an alliance of
> trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly over
> the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of
> Northern Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early
> modern period, between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant
> language of trade was Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a
> dialect with significant impact for countries involved in the trade,
> particularly the larger Scandinavian languages. Middle Low Saxon and
> Middle Dutch have many identical words, the separation between the two
> languages was not as clear at the time as it is now, and the British
> Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and Hanseatic traders
> and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English could be from
> either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected < _schore_'?',
> cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
> land','cliff', 'bluff').
>
> Thanks very much Lowlanders,
>
> Ted Shore

 In Zeelandic and Flemish, schor is an intertidal area that only some
times a month is flooded (around full and dark moon).

Slik, another intertidal area is flooded every day and is situated
between lowtide and hightide.(In the north slikken are wadden)
It is interesting that schorre and slikke also are used in French.

In the dutch provinces Noord Brabant and Zuid Holland schor is named:
gors. In the north of Netherland the same area has the name kwelder.

An inlet in these intertidal area's is here in Zeeland called a kreek /
kreke (E:creek). In the north it's a priel.

Regards
Jakob(Jaap)
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ah, Wim! You may have nailed it. Ever since Elsie asked her question about
Afrikaans skor I've been twisting and wring my little brain and was still
mystified.

If your hypothesis is correct, then this is a cognate of the following, all
with the meaning 'to scour', 'to rub hard in order to clean or shine':

Modern Low Saxon: *schuyrn* (sch??rn, *sch?ern* )
Middle Saxon: *sch?ren*
Modern Dutch: *schuren*, * schuieren*
Middle Dutch: *sch?ren*
Modern German: *scheuern * (< MS?)
Modern English:* *to scour (< MD/MS?)
Middle English: *scoure*, *scowre* , *skoure*
Danish:* skure* (< MS?)
Middle Swedish: *skura* (< MS?)

The people of the *Oxford English Dictionary* suspect that Middle Dutch
and/or Middle Saxon developed *sch?ren *from Old French *escurer* (> Modern
French *?curer*), probably from Vulgar Latin * excurare* (> Medieval *escurare,
scurare*), based on *cura* 'care' which in Medieval Latin also came to mean
'to clean'.

I would have made the leap if the word had been **skuur *or **skuir *in
Afrikaans.

Jaap, in Low Saxon of Germany, *slik* (*Slick*) means 'mud', 'silt',
'slime', also 'mudflat'; same for German *Schlick* (< Low Saxon?, for
otherwise I'd expect ** Schlich*). These are related to English "slick" and
"sleek".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/b3eb7ea7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  5 15:56:37 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:56:37 -0800
Subject: Fwd: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]
In-Reply-To: <57c981290711050752t45b4f1bdj713db312dffa41b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.075637.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.04 (04) [A]

Hi!

Schor ( skor) Means I think your voice feels like it has been sand dusted
with sand paper

Schuren, (to sandpaper a piece of wood),

Wim [Verdoold]

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle nederland

-----------

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]

> From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca >
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
>
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England
> in Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of
> Schore.  I am not a linguist, but I have found the following
> information from various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on
> the validity of what I have gathered:
>
> A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish,
> shallow water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There are
> also inland marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt
> level because of evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is
> described as a Dutch word that refers to that part of a salt marsh
> covered by high tides.  'Schore' is an example of a Low Saxon
> loanword.  It is one of several words from the areas of shipping and
> trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon language of the
> Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an alliance of
> trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly over
> the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of
> Northern Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early
> modern period, between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant
> language of trade was Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a
> dialect with significant impact for countries involved in the trade,
> particularly the larger Scandinavian languages. Middle Low Saxon and
> Middle Dutch have many identical words, the separation between the two
> languages was not as clear at the time as it is now, and the British
> Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and Hanseatic traders
> and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English could be from
> either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected < _schore_'?',
> cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
> land','cliff', 'bluff').
>
> Thanks very much Lowlanders,
>
> Ted Shore

 In Zeelandic and Flemish, schor is an intertidal area that only some
times a month is flooded (around full and dark moon).

Slik, another intertidal area is flooded every day and is situated
between lowtide and hightide.(In the north slikken are wadden)
It is interesting that schorre and slikke also are used in French.

In the dutch provinces Noord Brabant and Zuid Holland schor is named:
gors. In the north of Netherland the same area has the name kwelder.

An inlet in these intertidal area's is here in Zeeland called a kreek /
kreke (E:creek). In the north it's a priel.

Regards
Jakob(Jaap)
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ah, Wim! You may have nailed it. Ever since Elsie asked her question about
Afrikaans skor I've been twisting and wring my little brain and was still
mystified.

If your hypothesis is correct, then this is a cognate of the following, all
with the meaning 'to scour', 'to rub hard in order to clean or shine':

Modern Low Saxon: *schuyrn* (sch??rn, *sch?ern* )
Middle Saxon: *sch?ren*
Modern Dutch: *schuren*, * schuieren*
Middle Dutch: *sch?ren*
Modern German: *scheuern * (< MS?)
Modern English:* *to scour (< MD/MS?)
Middle English: *scoure*, *scowre* , *skoure*
Danish:* skure* (< MS?)
Middle Swedish: *skura* (< MS?)

The people of the *Oxford English Dictionary* suspect that Middle Dutch
and/or Middle Saxon developed *sch?ren *from Old French *escurer* (> Modern
French *?curer*), probably from Vulgar Latin * excurare* (> Medieval *escurare,
scurare*), based on *cura* 'care' which in Medieval Latin also came to mean
'to clean'.

I would have made the leap if the word had been **skuur *or **skuir *in
Afrikaans.

Jaap, in Low Saxon of Germany, *slik* (*Slick*) means 'mud', 'silt',
'slime', also 'mudflat'; same for German *Schlick* (< Low Saxon?, for
otherwise I'd expect ** Schlich*). These are related to English "slick" and
"sleek".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/663be3ca/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 02:14:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 18:14:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.181400.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Tatum <ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (01) [D/E]

Hi all,
Heather wrote:
> Don't like to be pedantic (really!) but Lincolnshire is on the east
> coast of England
>
> solidly 'Germanic' in medieval times whereas the west coast still
> retained populations of non-germanic speakers.

But I think I've heard that it was still celtic speaking in east anglia
when saint Guthlac was travelling there, despite Raedwald et al. do the
dark ages count as medieval? I'm very doubtful about how much we
actually know of our history at this time, our sources seem to be late
and mostly contradicted by archaeology, though the old adage about
absence of evidence (eg of invasion :) is not evidence of absence applies.

TTFN, Paul Tatum.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/036919a9/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 02:12:22 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 18:12:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.NOV.2007.181222.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]

> From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
>
> > From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: origin of 'Schore"
> >
> > Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the west cost of England
> > in Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins
> of
> > Schore.  I am not a linguist, but I have found the following
> > information from various sources, and I'd appreciate any comments on
> > the validity of what I have gathered:
> >
> > A Schorre is a contemporary Dutch word, meaning 'areas of brackish,
> > shallow water usually found in coastal areas and in deltas. There
> are
> > also inland marshes in arid areas where the water has a high salt
> > level because of evaporation.'  From another source, a 'Schorre' is
> > described as a Dutch word that refers to that part of a salt marsh
> > covered by high tides.  'Schore' is an example of a Low Saxon
> > loanword.  It is one of several words from the areas of shipping and
> > trading which seem to be from the Middle Low Saxon language of the
> > Hanseatic Trading League days. The Hanseatic League was an alliance
> of
> > trading guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly over
> > the Baltic Sea, to a certain extent the North Sea, and most of
> > Northern Europe for a time in the Late Middle Ages and the early
> > modern period, between the 13th and 17th centuries. The dominant
> > language of trade was Mittelniederdeutsch (Middle Low German), a
> > dialect with significant impact for countries involved in the trade,
> > particularly the larger Scandinavian languages. Middle Low Saxon and
> > Middle Dutch have many identical words, the separation between the
> two
> > languages was not as clear at the time as it is now, and the British
> > Isles had trading links with both Dutch/Flemish and Hanseatic
> traders
> > and artisans.  This means that some loanwords in English could be
> from
> > either Dutch or Low Saxon origin.  "shore" (suspected < _schore_'?',
> > cf. Modern Low Saxon _Schaar(t)_ ~ _Schor(t)_ 'coast', 'coastal
> > land','cliff', 'bluff').
> >
> > Thanks very much Lowlanders,
> >
> > Ted Shore
>
>  In Zeelandic and Flemish, schor is an intertidal area that only some
> times a month is flooded (around full and dark moon).
>
> Slik, another intertidal area is flooded every day and is situated
> between lowtide and hightide.(In the north slikken are wadden)
> It is interesting that schorre and slikke also are used in French.
>
> In the dutch provinces Noord Brabant and Zuid Holland schor is named:
> gors. In the north of Netherland the same area has the name kwelder.
>
> An inlet in these intertidal area's is here in Zeeland called a
> kreek /
> kreke (E:creek). In the north it's a priel.
>
> Regards
> Jakob(Jaap)
> --
> Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Ah, Wim! You may have nailed it. Ever since Elsie asked her question
> about Afrikaans skor I've been twisting and wring my little brain and
> was still mystified.
>
> If your hypothesis is correct, then this is a cognate of the
> following, all with the meaning 'to scour', 'to rub hard in order to
> clean or shine':
>
> Modern Low Saxon: schuyrn (sch??rn, sch?ern)
> Middle Saxon: sch?ren
> Modern Dutch: schuren, schuieren
> Middle Dutch: sch?ren
> Modern German: scheuern (< MS?)
> Modern English: to scour (< MD/MS?)
> Middle English: scoure, scowre, skoure
> Danish: skure (< MS?)
> Middle Swedish: skura (< MS?)
>
> The people of the Oxford English Dictionary suspect that Middle Dutch
> and/or Middle Saxon developed sch?ren from Old French escurer (>
> Modern French ?curer), probably from Vulgar Latin excurare (> Medieval
> escurare, scurare), based on cura 'care' which in Medieval Latin also
> came to mean 'to clean'.
>
> I would have made the leap if the word had been *skuur or *skuir in
> Afrikaans.
>
> Jaap, in Low Saxon of Germany, slik (Slick) means 'mud', 'silt',
> 'slime', also 'mudflat'; same for German Schlick (< Low Saxon?, for
> otherwise I'd expect *Schlich). These are related to English "slick"
> and "sleek".
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
In deze tijd van het jaar zijn in Zeeland waarschuwingsboeden langs de
weg te vinden met de tekst: Slik op de weg. Slik heeft daar dus de
betekenis van modder. In de zee hebben we slikken opgebouwd uit fijn
sediment en platen die zandiger zijn.
Groeten,

Jaap
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071105/ed39d50f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 15:37:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:37:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.NOV.2007.073735.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]

Hi all

But skuur exists in the meanings rub, scrape, scrub scour.
Is skoorsteen not then related to these?

Elsie Zinsser

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071106/871519b2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 15:40:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:40:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.06 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.NOV.2007.074047.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.05 (04) [E]

From: Paul Tatum < ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (01) [D/E]

But I think I've heard that it was still celtic speaking in east anglia
when saint Guthlac was travelling there, despite Raedwald et al. do the
dark ages count as medieval? I'm very doubtful about how much we
actually know of our history at this time, our sources seem to be late
and mostly contradicted by archaeology, though the old adage about
absence of evidence (eg of invasion :) is not evidence of absence applies.

TTFN, Paul Tatum.
********************************************************************** Seems
unlikely, other than perhaps a few pockets; the missionary activity afer all
was aimed at the Germanic pagans; the celtic speakers were Christians
anyway.   True we can never know for certain, but that argument cuts both
ways; and I'm not sure I'd agree that sources are "mostly contradicted by
archaeology"; the archaeology tends to be rejected if it doesn't fit a
popular model.  The current popular flavour regarding archaeological
evidence of Germanic settlement is that Celtic artifacts prove Celtic
peoples, Germanic artifacts prove Celtic peoples who were pretending to be
Germans.  The same apparently applies to language.   Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.05 (04) [E]

Paul Tatum wrote
I'm very doubtful about how much we
actually know of our history at this time, our sources seem to be late
and mostly contradicted by archaeology, though the old adage about
absence of evidence (eg of invasion :) is not evidence of absence applies.

I think you are probably very right! And for every definite statement about
history, someone can produce evidence or suggestion of the opposite or
something else! So perhaps I should ahve left it as - lincoln is on the east
coast. At least that is something to be sure about!

As I am a great 'Eccles' fan, I shouldn't have used the expression 'solidly
germanic'.
['eccles' is usually thought to be derived from eglwys = Celtic for church
and therefore an indication of a strong enough celtic christian community to
'survive' any invasion / overwhelming/ foreign immigration / upper
take-over. And there are plenty of Eccles on the east coast!

Heather [Randall]

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071106/f92893f7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  6 20:34:17 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:34:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.NOV.2007.123417.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (01) [E]

> From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.05 (02) [E]
>
> Hi all
>
> But skuur exists in the meanings rub, scrape, scrub
> scour.
> Is skoorsteen not then related to these?
>
> Elsie Zinsser

Ach, Elsie:

Een wijze vrouw [genaamd Elsie] kan meer vragen dan
Theo kan beantwoorden.
Bij dit geval herinner ik me dat men 'schoorsteen'
laat vallen in de woordfamilie van 'schoren' =
steunen, stutten [bouwtechnisch] = eng. shore.
Er moet bij dit 'schoren' zeker wel een zuidafr.
parallel zijn.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From:Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (01) [E]

Hi Elsie, "Schoorsteen" is derived from the verb "schoren" which means
something like "to hold upright" If you build a schoorsteen in the middle of
your house (hovel is maybe a better choice of words here) it will keep
standing. There is also a word "scheerlijn" which means a line used to keep
a  sail straight.

I remember a fatal invention of a "scheerlijn" which my friend Loes and I
applied between the two tent poles of our tent to keep the top flyer from
sagging onto the tent proper. We did this so that the inner tent would
remain dry in case of rain.. We were "camping" in the dunes of the Isle of
Texel. Unfortunately it started raining. The string shrunk and finally
broke. The whole tent (which we had baptized the "Zwangere Zeug" ) collapsed
and left us in a puddle. We had to flee to the hotel where my parents were
staying. My father used the opportunity to give me a lecture in mechanics,
my mother ordered hot chocolate.

I do not know whether "schoor" as wet-land outside the dikes and "schoor" as
in schoorsteen have anything to do with each other.

I would not be surprised. Jacqueline

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071106/f7557718/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  7 04:24:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 20:24:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.06 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.NOV.2007.202433.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ted <tedshore at sympatico.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.04 (01) [D/E]

Thanks Roger.  Any chance to have this email below translated into English?

There seems to be divergence from 'Schore' as related to shore, body of
water, etc.  and 'Score', 'Scora' which seems to be related to scoring of a
surface, and the sandpaper references 'Skor'.   Is it the difference between
the soft and hard - 'sh' verses 'sk'.  different words = different meanings?

The derivation of the byname Shore is from those who 'lived by the Shore'.

The name's origin  appears to be more north of East Anglia - Mercia and
Northumbria..

Ted Shore

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.03 (03) [E]
 > From: Ted < tedshore at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: origin of 'Schore"
> Johannes de Schore is listed as living near the *east* cost of England in
Lincolnshire.   I am interested in any insight into the origins of Schore.

 a - De Brabandere, "Woordenboek van de familienamen in Belgi? en
Noord-Frankrijk", Grondig herziene en vermeerdere uitgave, Veen, 2003, gives
(*family names in Belgium*):

Schoor, van: van Schoor(e)n, van Schoren, Wansc(h)oor:
P!N Schoor (NL),
      in Hoegaarden (VB)
      of Broechem (A);
      Schore (WV,Z).
Zie ook: Verschoor(e)
1218 Johannes de Score
1220 Erlebaldus miles de Scora
1261 Thirinus de Scora = 1263 Tieren van Score, WV (DF XIV)
1326 Gillis van Scoren, Ip. (BEELE)
1433 Heinric van Score; Kh (DEKEYSER)

A Province of Antwerp (Belgium)
NL Province of Limburg (Netherlands)
VB Province of Flemish Brabant (Belgium)
WV Province of West-Flanders  (Belgium)
Z Province of Zeeland (Netherlands)

b - Further, from:
Herbillon & Germain, Dictionnaire des noms de famile en Belgique romane,
1996, Cr?dit Communal, vol 2:

*Frequency of families in Belgium* (and split-up per province).
Families are only listed when more than 100 families with exactly the same
orthography for the very same name are occuring in BElgium=

De Sc(h)o(o)r(e): not listed
Schoorens: 119 (Belgium), of which 56 (East-Flanders)
Schoors: 378 (Belgium), of which 252 (Antwerp)
Van Schoor: 472 (Belgium), of which 207 (Antwerp), 158 (East-Flanders)
Vanschooren: 119 (Belgium), of which 104 (Belg. Limburg)

Pse be aware that due to name translations between Dutch, French and Latin
the prefixes "de" and "van" are often interchanged in "Belgium ancien
r?gime". Orthography was not consistent, but an on the spot transcription of
the spoken name.

c - Cf. Also schor in the WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal), pasted
from the CDROM
(Dictionary of *16th-19th century Dutch*):

*SCHOR (I) ? SCHORRE* ?, znw. vr. en onz. Mnl. *schor,* onz., *schorre,* vr.
en onz. (?), mnd. *schor(e),* onz., ook kust, oever, m. eng. *schore,* eng.
*shore,* kust, oever. Van denzelfden stam als Scheren (I), verg. ook SCHAAR
(VI) en SCHOOR.
) Buitendijksche aangeslibde grond, onbedijkte (en bij hoog water
onderloopende) aangeslibde kleibank. || Dat de *scorren* ligghende buuten
zeedycken ghemeene metter zee, staende of gheweest hebbende ter ghifte ofte
disposicie vanden grave ..., gherekent ende ghehouden zyn over catheil,
Cost. Vrije v. Brugge 1, 760 (a?. 1522). Dat my meest voordeel gaf, dat quam
my van het dijcken, Als wy den souten stroom bedwongen om te wijcken: Hier
kocht ick *schorren* toe of lang verdroncken lant, CATS 3, 61 b. Eensdeels
op den dyk, eensdeels beneevens dien op het *schor*, HOOFT, N. H. 1171. (Een
man) die des avonds een fuik in de Meer gezet hadde, aan 't* schor* van het
land, LEEGHWATER, HaarlemmerMeerb. ? 4. Ick hebbe wel op gorsingen
ofte *schorren
*geweest daer geen creecken en waeren, VIERLINGH, Tract. v. Dyck. 5. Men
vind voor deeze Landen nog verscheide banken, die by laag water droog
liggen, en aldaar met den naam van *Schorren* bekend staan, waar onder
de *schorren
van Strijen* de voornaamsten zyn, BERKHEY, N. H. 1, 12. Zijne onderneming
der bedijking der *Goereesche schorren*, BILD., Br. 4, 135. Indijking van *
schorren* of buitengronden, droogmaking van meren, waren (v??r de veertiende
eeuw) onbekend, G. DE VRIES, Holl. Noorderkw. 5. Kwelders, *schorren*,
aanwassen en slikken, Versl. Landb. 1910, 4, 4.
? Op hooge en grazige *schorren* worden schapen geweid. || Op de*
schorren*mijne Schapen Vinde ick in een groot getal, HONDIUS,
Moufeschans 277. Moet
onsen acker dor staen; En Boomgaard aan den quijn: Sal 't schaap niet weer
ter *schorr *gaan, V. LODENSTEYN, Uytsp. 309. ...

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071106/6c97a6fd/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  7 18:32:59 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:32:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.07 (01) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.NOV.2007.103259.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  07 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (03) [D/E]

Dankie, Theo en Jacqueline!

Elsie Zin?er

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.06 (03) [D/E]

 Beste Ted and all participating Lowlanners,

it's very interesting to go to the roots of the word-family around *
'skar-skor-shore-schaar'*.

Ted, Du schreyvst:

> There seems to be divergence from 'Schore' as related to shore, body of
water, etc.  and 'Score', 'Scora' which seems to be related to
> scoring of a surface, and the sandpaper references 'Skor'.   Is it the
difference between the soft and hard - 'sh' verses 'sk'.  different words >
= different meanings?
I don't think so, because in our/my Low Saxon dialect I see a possible
connection: a 'dike which is standing *schaar/schoor' *means* 'close to the
water line', *in this case preferably used in the meaning* 'close to the
kerb the water _scored_ into the ground',* which is called*
'Abbruch-Kante'*in German
*.*
**
Besides that in LS we have an old word which had been in use till the 19th
century:* _Anscot_,* meaning 'growing marshlands' (outside the dike lines),
which *could(!)* formerly have been 'An-skaar/An-skoor' = 'at the shore'.

Another connection could be the LS/G word (Plough-/Pflug-)*'-schar'* (share
of a plough), in which one we find the 'cutting' element again as the water
often "*cuts"* a line into the beach.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071107/9cb2526c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  7 19:08:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:08:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2007.11.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.NOV.2007.110808.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.06 (04) [D/E]

Roger,
please keep logging your fascinating facts.
there does not seem to be a lot of south dutch or Limburgisch info and I
always find yours and Luc's and Desidre's info most enlightening. I am
fascinated that there are over 1 million users of limburgs ( and after
having visited in July 2007 again having no doubt in this number of users
but am amazed at the lack of imput from Limburgs language users. it seems as
though Limburgs treats their minor language scenario as un important. My own
experience is totally the opposite. I went to the main bookshop in
Maastricht and asked for Limburgs English dictionary and was told by 3
different staff that this is not what I want. I do not want Limburgs dialect
is what I was told. Even though I was in the heartlaand. What is wrong with
these " Learned people" .  As an English speaking person  I WAS FOBBED OFF.
It was absurd that I wanted to see anything in the Limburgs dialect. What I
wanted was Dutch I was told. I was totally amazed at the lack of Limburgs in
Maaastricht I was being sold in the new b ookshop. Beautiful place with
walls being art updated but the language expectation here was only Dutch -
super sad to me. My cousin who lived in Valkenburg thought it was also an
absurdity b ut the truth.
Regards
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language attitudes

Hi, Pete! Could to "see" you, stranger.

What you encountered there is the sort of thing I and some people I know are
quite familiar with. I'm certain anyone is who deals with minority languages
of countries other than their own. It is an interesting but also irritating
phenomenon.

What makes it hard to deal with is that it seems to come from a mixture of
ignorance and wanting to be helpful to outsiders. Those people got a bit too
much state-run education (that used to reflect denial of legitimacy of
languages other than the national one), and they haven't really caught up
with the latest changes in policy and attitudes. Fundamental may be that
they truly believe that it's fine for local "backward" *Lokalpatrioten *to
deal with "inconsequential" lingos, but that foreigners ought to learn
the *national
*language if they haven't already done so. It is virtually impossible for
them to get their heads around the possibility that a foreigner is
interested in, say, Limburgish, Low Saxon or Frisian but not in Dutch, and
learning Dutch without wanting to live there is seen by many as being
frivolous to begin with.  So if these "educated" people that are fluent in a
handful of "important" foreign languages see their own national language as
being low on the international totem pole, guess what they think about the
minority and "regional" languages of their country. What you are dealing
with here are the chickens of past indoctrination having come home to roost
and running amuck in this transitional period because no one wants to see
them and deal with them, since that would require acknowledging past "sins."

As I said, I have come across this phenomenon many times, and not only in
Europe. In Indonesia I had the longest run-around trying to round up
material for Sundanese and Javanese (which aren't exactly minority languages
with 27 million and 75 million speakers respectively). And I wasn't even
asking for English language material about them. Overriding seemed to be the
attitude that this was an internal matter, that a foreigner ought to be
dealing only with Indonesian, the national language. In China (including
Taiwan) it is very difficult for foreigners to get to study the "dialects" (
i.e., Chinese languages other than Standard Mandarin), leave alone
non-Chinese languages of China, and the latter is often accompanied by
suspicion.

In my opinion, the only way around such barriers anywhere in the world is
establishing contacts with relevant individuals, populations and
organizations. Just traveling there and trying to spend an afternoon hunting
down material tends to be difficult. This is where it comes in handy if you
do some homework before the trip. Being on a list like ours also allows you
to ask locals or those that have been there before about resources and their
locations.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071107/d4ae3ec7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  7 19:10:40 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:10:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.07 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.NOV.2007.111040.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  07 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: "Peter Snepvangers" <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: genealogy

Hello Lowlanders'
Long time , no list., sorry about that.
 I am super duper busy latetly but still try to always read my favourite
emails (Lowlands). Please try to list in english also as we are not all as
gifted as all you folks on the list and we do need to make the list as
accesible as possible. I know this is a hassle but folk such as Johnny M etc
do a fantastic job in including us all in his enlightening mails and
including us in the Lowlands familia. Some languages as Scots, Lowlands and
Limburgs are easy to follow for me but other stuff including modern Dutch
ate a little more difficult. I do not wish to put a damper on your listings
as I realise we all have language we are more comfortable in writing in but
even a poor attempt in english is hundreds of percent appreciated than no
attempt at all. I hope I have not offended any one on this list as I super
value the listings of all people in all languages and use the various
languages as practice in reading. There is not much opportunity in now in
Australia for practice as the generations of immigrants are now dying out.
My own mother is 83 years old and although good compis mentis there are not
many people of her generation left unfortunately who we can ask for
reference.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071107/e0d7c653/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 15:18:13 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:18:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.08 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.071813.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.07 (03) [E]

In message
<57c981290711071110j29d86d8fy9d0f7677eed9ef1f at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> (i.e. Peter Snepvangers writes
> Please try to list in english also as we are not all as gifted as all
>you folks on the list and we do need to make the list as accesible as
>possible.

I don't mind it ... this is why (just my thoughts).

 I belong to three lists which operate in multiple languages.

The first is run by a body affiliated to UNESCO.  Everything official
has to be in both English and French (they alternate which comes first),
although posting in Spanish and Russian are both allowed.  Very
occasionally there is an official positing in Spanish (e.g. for a
Spanish-language conference), with obligatory translations  into English
and French.   There is very little discussion on the list, but when
there is, it is almost always in English. Very, very occasionally, there
is a comment or two in French.

The second list is run by a group of archaeologists who are very pro
indigenous rights.  Almost every post is in English, but a fair number
are in Spanish, and a very few in French.  Threads stick to their
language, in almost every case (the exceptions being very brief English
posts asking for translation so they can join in on political
campaigns).

All lists want to be inclusive, and accessible.  But oddly, I think that
the way people post to lowlands-l in different languages makes it more
accessible than either of the others (and more accessible than
English-only lists). This is because it is far easier to read in an
additional language than it is to write, so we include people who
(think) their English isn't good enough,  Of course, if someone replies
to a post, or starts a discussion in a language that I don't understand,
things don't move forward as easily as they should.  But I find
conversations often come around back into English. And in the meantime,
I like reading things I don't understand, in idle moments.  In not-idle
moments, I delete, unread, things without E in the subject line
(although I admit I didn't recognise this useful tag for too long!)

Cheers,

Pat


--
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/d338359d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 15:16:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:16:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.071633.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.07 (01) [A/E]

 it's very interesting to go to the roots of the word-family around
'skar-skor-shore-schaar'.
Johnny, could this be the origin of the surname Skarsted?
Ben

---------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Genealogy" 2007.11.06 (04) [D/E]

*Subject:* LL-L "Genealogy"

There is another term that might contribute to this string, 'shire' & its
remote cognate in Afrikaans 'sk?r' = scissors & 'skeer' = shave. Shire
origionally meant a 'division' of the kingdom, a 'department' I suppose the
French would say. A Sherriff took the rents of the shire, was in fact the
'scire geriva' = shire provisioner (practically all taxes in those days were
food-rent). I can see the structure 'sk-vowel-r' deriving from & giving
meaning to the convolutions of the terms 'divider' or 'separator'.
'Geriewe' = provisions in Afrikaans.

(Ted says) There seems to be divergence from 'Schore' as related to shore,
body of water, etc.  and 'Score', 'Scora' which seems to be related to
scoring of a surface, and the sandpaper references 'Skor'.   Is it the
difference between the soft and hard - 'sh' verses 'sk'.  different words =
different meanings?

By the way, 'van Schoor' is a respected family in South Africa also.

Yrs,
Mark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/a7faeae0/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 16:24:50 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:24:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.082450.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: "Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: CMT Syndrome

My Dierbare Vriende,

It is now my turn to ask for your prayers for my Ruth. On Friday she goes in
for tests for a possible nervous degenerative disease called the CMT
Syndrome. It starts at the extremities, & her feet are already being
affected, that is why we went to the doctor. She is a dancer. Later it will
affect her hands, & she is a musician. That's all for now, but even as your
prayers fortified her & saved me may we hope they may again do the same for
us.

Yours in Trust,
Mark.

----------

From: "Mike Morgan" <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: Back in Touch [E+]

Goeiendag! Hi y'all!

I haven't been seen on this list in quite some time (busy? lazy?
indifferent? ... well the LASt one most certainly does NOT apply, but
as for the first two ... take your pick!)

Anyway, since I am leaving Japan (after 18 years) for better parts
(India), I needed to change my subscription email address, which lead
our most gracious Ron aka Reinhard (or is it vice versa?) to respond
in person (I had sent a faulty command to the listserv, shame on
me!!!) ... and I thought i would respond to HIS email through the list
...

Those of you who do not remember me from my previous postings, I  am
one of Japan's few Lowlands-L subscribers, and have posted (all too
infrequently, I admit) on the wonders of wasabi, the Blue Ridge
Institute & Farm Museum in at my mother's alma mater in her home town
of Ferrum, VA (USA), on Turkic syntax (at least that is what I vaguely
remember the topic being), and (most actively) orthography (in
specific, a friendly debate with a certain honorable Mr. S. Fleming
about systems of putting sign language into writing ... perhaps best
described as the practical approach (SF) versus the
feet-in-the-ivory-tower, head-in-the-clouds approach (MWM) :-)

EVERYTHING, in fact, EXCEPT Lowlands languages.  SHAME on me!!

Well, one of the things that motivated me to stop procrastinating and
change my subscription address now (rather than, say, in 10 days ...
the day before I leave ) was that I am in the porcess of selecting 30
kgs of books to go with me as I move (the other 30 metric tons will
come later ... by slow boat, perhaps?), and for me the process of
choosing what books is mostly a process of choosing what LANGAUGES.
Well, I have been moving books on and off my "to go with" shelves, and
I (a Slavicist by training, a Sign language linguist by profession,
and an (Southern) Asian at heart) have been surprised to realize that
although some surprising languages have found there way onto the
shelves only later to be replaced and knocked down to the "runners-up
shelf), a total of FOUR Lowlands languages have stayed put (for the
curious, they are (drumroll please!): Nederlands (Dutch), Frysk (West
Frisian), Scots (making it FIVE if you count Lallans AND Ullans)
separately and Afrikaans  ... OH, and (sorry Sandy!) I almost forgot:
BSL is also on the definitely to-go-with shelf (and NOT only due to
its input on Indian Sign Language!)

So MAYEB I will be prepared to participate more actively ...

The runners-up shelf would add to the list ... and since the "rules
and regulations" for LowlandsList are a bit "vague" as to what exactly
a lowlands language is , I'll quote Ron's email to me that "
> Marathi ain't Lowlands, but nothing is too
> far away, and Indian English is definitely Lowlands. Besides, Mumbai is
home
> to gezillions of language varieties.

Well, if Indian English is Lowlands, what about Tok Pisin and Bislama
(whcih have been trading places on the to-go and runners-up shelves)?

Ron alos wrote:
> Maybe you can organize some wrens and their sounds while you are there.
(The
> LL-L hustler is never far away.)

Yes, and I MAY even get around to submitting my Japanese Sign language
version  (lazy ... I mean, busy me will probably get around to it
about the time my Indian Sign language is fluent enough to submit my
version in that as well!!)

> At any rate, best of luck with the relocation, and luck is needed when it
> comes to Indian bureaucracy. ;-)

Spoken like a man with experience! Yes, Indian Bureaucracy and the
crowded Bombay commuter trains are two of the few things i am NOT
looking forward to dealing with regualrly!

Ron again:
> Don't be a stranger now, y'hear?

I will TRY not to be ...

MWM || ??? || ???? || ????

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )

++++++++++++++++

??????(?????)
NPO??????????????????
????(????)????

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Mark!

Thanks for informing us about Ruth's situation. Whatever it's worth, my
positive energies have already begun flying SA-ward, and I'm sure others
will join them. After all, Ruth is a part of the family, albeit on an in-law
basis.

Even if the tests results come back positive, bear in mind what the Kahuna (
http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) just whispered in my ear:

There are many ways of dancing and making music.

And take our Ben and Sandy as shining examples. Ben's blindness doesn't keep
him from studying languages (including Chinese) and going to study abroad,
and ... from being a birder. Sandy turned deaf as an adult after having been
a musician. But look at him following his passions and making terrific
contributions from which many people get to benefit! Sometimes we just need
to switch over to a different route sometime along the way. Actually, most
of us will eventually have to as our bodies wear out but our minds and
spirits still want and need to soar.

Please give your Ruth my love and best wishes.

Hi again, Mike! And to add to your collection, it's *Michel *[?m??l?] in
Northern Low Saxon of Germany.

You wrote:

Well, if Indian English is Lowlands, what about Tok Pisin and Bislama
(whcih have been trading places on the to-go and runners-up shelves)?

To reiterate, *all* Englishes are within our focus, as are all pidgins and
creoles that substantially involve (not necessarily constitute the bases of)
Lowlands languages (which tend to be Afrikaans, Dutch and English). This
puts Tok Pisin and Bislama fair and square into the Lowlands focus, since
they are English-based creoles (former pidgins that have "gone native").

A list of English-based creoles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-based_creole_languages

A list of Dutch-based creoles and languages with heavy Dutch contributions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch-based_creole_languages

Afrikaans-based: Tsotsitaal, Oorlams (Vlaaitaal)

Take a look at the index of our Anniversary Project to get an idea:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/contents.php
Everything above the line is Lowlandic.
Tok Pisin is already there: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/tokpisin.php
As is Philippines English:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/english-philippines.php

Although the languages varieties below the line are not within the focus
area, those on top of that list are closely related, and some (e.g.,
Northern German, Missingsch and Scandinavian) are relevant by virtue of
intensive contacts.

At the end of the day, none are totally irrelevant, which is one of the
reasons why in the language introductions (
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/contents-info.php) I mention contacts with
Lowlands languages (e.g., Japanese, Hindi/Urdu, Kannada, Malay, Indonesian,
Baba Malay [the latest addition], Tsalagi and Walloon).

Mike, I envy you as you embark on a new phase in your exciting life as an
expatriate. Why, I might even visit you sometime in good, old ???? ????. I'm
sure you will have a wonderful time that is enriching for everyone
concerned.

> Don't be a stranger now, y'hear?

I will TRY not to be ...

I'll hold you to it. You could even be our ambassador in India (and get a
special name from the Kahuna) if you play your cards right.

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Officially, our Sandy is A. Fleming, I assume (Alexander = Sandy,
pronounced something like "Sawny" I think). Just after he joined us donkey
years ago I assumed he was a woman, which he graciously corrected, yet I
still danced many a Tango with him over orthographic issues.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/88bc2f09/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 19:33:32 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:33:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.113332.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  07 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

Howzit!

[MWM]:
> Well, if Indian English is Lowlands, what about Tok Pisin and Bislama
>  (which have been trading places on the to-go and runners-up shelves)?
[R/R]:
> To reiterate, all Englishes are within our focus, as are all pidgins and
> creoles that substantially involve (not necessarily constitute the bases
of)
> Lowlands languages (which tend to be Afrikaans, Dutch and English). This
> puts Tok Pisin and Bislama fair and square into the Lowlands focus, since
> they are English-based creoles (former pidgins that have "gone native").

Sorry brah, I wen forget ALL da kine pidgins was Lowlands (I come
Pearl side, but live long time up Makiki way -- mauka-side, brah, so
no LOW lands, so no give me da stink eye, eh?). Ain no way I go India
widout my copy Lee Tonouchi's Living Pidgin an' also Da Word (dat one
FUNNY book, eh, j'like wen we waz kids) ... So dat make, wat, EIGHT
Lowlands languages I gon take wit? Eh braddah, get so many! Maybe
betta jes go whole cheese and take 'em all!

> Mike, I envy you as you embark on a new phase in your exciting life as an
> expatriate. Why, I might even visit you sometime in good, old ???? ????.
I'm
> sure you will have a wonderful time that is enriching for everyone
> concerned.

You are always most welcome, as are ANY and ALL Lowlands list members
who pass through my new neighborhood  Just drop me an email and give
me a heads up, and I'll have the chai ready and the rotis hot!

> You could even be our ambassador in India (and get a
> special name from the Kahuna) if you play your cards right.

I would be most greatly overjoyed to be the recipient of such an
honour, ... though the only card game I know is Nepali 3-card, no-peek
poker. THAT is a real blast!

>  P.S.: Officially, our Sandy is A. Fleming, I assume (Alexander = Sandy,
> pronounced something like "Sawny" I think). Just after he joined us donkey
> years ago I assumed he was a woman, which he graciously corrected, yet I
> still danced many a Tango with him over orthographic issues.

Yes, and I am officially Michael, but the only person who knew me who
has EVER called me that was my mother, and then only when I was little
and she was hoppin' mad at me! NOT a pleasant memory ... And, just for
the record (since I always sign-off with the 3 initials), the middle
name is Wayne, which for some reason I have ALWAYS hated (EVEN in my
Arthurian period when I imagined it was a form of Gawain). And the
initials MWM are not only easy to write, but even easier to
fingerspell ... IN ASL (not nearly so "handy" in either BSL or ISL,
I'm afraid) .... the ASL name-sign incorporates JUST the two M's
articulated at the chin, and my more widely known JSL and
international name sign is the one-handed form of the sign for "beard"
(though beards are NOT so uncommon where I am going, they are a rarity
where I have been, and hence the distinctive name sign.)

Anyway, I WILL be in touch ... and as I have OFTEN noticed that some
of the "strange" forms of Indian English are not quite so strange to
me (given my almost-Appalachian mother if not a previous South Asian
rebirth), maybe on occassion I will be checking in to see if they have
broader Lowlands connections. [for instance, the idiom "do the
needful" came up the other day in an email from Ishara's principal (it
MAY in fact have even been in the plural "do the needfuls", but as i
cannot locate the email right now, I can't be sure.) ... any Lowlands
links there???

MWM || ??? || ???? || ????

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )

++++++++++++++++

??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Howdy 'gain, Mike!

I conferred with the Kahuna, and we unanimously voted in favor of appointing
you to the post of Lowlands Ambassador to India. Should you accept this
assignment, the Kahuna will send a buxom *kaikamahine* or strapping *keiki
k?ne* (whichever you prefer) to give you a *lei*. Just for having taken the
speaker's mat he has bestowed upon you a mat of honor and a "fragrant name,"
upon Marcus as well: http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm

But mind that this prestigious diplomatic post comes with expectations.
Various Indic wrens would be a start.

Regards, from the Kahuna as well,

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/ca0aba3c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  8 20:14:30 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:14:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.121430.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: Der Kreis Stormarn hat jetzt die plattdeutschen Namen offziell
festgelegt

Leve Lowlanners,

kiekt mal op
http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html

De Krink Stormarn hett tosamen mit de Fehrs-Gill de plattd??tschen Naams f?r
de ??rd in Stormarn fastleggt, dormit de op de Oortsschiller kamen k??nt.

Hartlich Gr?ten,

Heiko Evermann
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/798e8772/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 00:56:46 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:56:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.8.NOV.2007.165646.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05)

HURRAY!!!

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05)

 Beste Heiko,

Du schreyvst:

> De Krink Stormarn hett tosamen mit de Fehrs-Gill de plattd??tschen Naams
f?r
> de ??rd in Stormarn fastleggt, dormit de op de Oortsschiller kamen k??nt.
Gradoleyr ouk! Nu waard 't woll draod weller Wiinach'en! Is dat ne greesig?
"Fastleggt"(!!!???) foyr de Eywigkeyt, wa? De Oul'n sch?llt sick woll in
jemmer Groyv mennigmool ?m-dreyhen, wenn 's dat tou seyh'n kriigt.
Man goud, watt 'ck door ne leeben un' doud-bliiben mutt...

Allerbest W?nschers, nu all!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

[English below]

Heiko un annere L??d',

Ik heff mi de List ank?ken un will geern w?ten, of de Naams altohoop
"nat??rlich" (or "echt") s?nd or of daar welk mit bi s?nd, de wen allerlest
tohoopklam?stert hett. Or geev' dat daar wat to k??rn, vun w?gen dat Woord
"fastleggt"?

Na Jonny sien Reakschoon baven to oordeeln lett dat meist, as weern de Naams
nich echt. S?lven kann ik dat nich seggen, wiel dat ik vun de daar l?ttern
??rd' nich v??l afw?ten do. Liekers n?hm ik stark an, dat de Minschen daar
ook "platt" snackt or maal "platt" snackt harrn, un daar w?gen schull een
ook ann?hmen, dat 't "platte" Naams gifft.

Klaar doot wi altohoop w?ten, dat "fastleggt" niks mit "Ewigkeit" to doon
hett, liek as offitschelle d??tsche un annere Oordsnaams nich up Ewigkeit
fastleggt s?nd.

Folks, Heiko drew our attention to the news that the North German
municipality of Stormarn will have bilingual place signs and has published a
list of German places and their Low Saxon equivalents. I took a look at the
list and am asking if all of the LS place names are "Although I have heard
of most of these places I am not familiar enough with them to be able to
answer this question myself. However, I am intrigued enough by Jonny's
acerbic reaction above to wonder what's the deal. It seems as though he
objects to the word *fastleggt* 'determined', 'decided', with reference to
these names, which, I must admit, sounds a bit as though they were invented
or as though there were many variants to choose from. (I have in mind
choices like Scots "Edinburrie" ~ "Embra" ~ "Embro", and "Glesga" ~
"Glesca".) If official choices among existing variants were made, would this
be acceptable or unacceptable?

I have to admit that the information and Jonny's reaction leave me with more
questions than they answer.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071108/882db5da/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 17:24:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:24:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.09 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.092426.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, I want to clarify that Tsotsitaal and Vlaaitaal (Flytaal) are
urban-based creoles (interspersed with Sotho, Xhosa and Zulu) and Oorlams is
a rural-based creole mostly found in the Northern Cape and Namibia,
interspersed with Nama.

Incidentally, the adjective 'oorlams' means to be cheeky, excited,
insolent.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

  Mike Morgan: ...they are (drumroll please!): Nederlands (Dutch), Frysk
(West
Frisian), Scots (making it FIVE if you count Lallans AND Ullans)
separately and Afrikaans  ... OH, and (sorry Sandy!) I almost forgot:
BSL is also on the definitely to-go-with shelf (and NOT only due to
its input on Indian Sign Language!)
Ron Hahn: Afrikaans-based: Tsotsitaal, Oorlams (Vlaaitaal)

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/3f9b3c09/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 17:18:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:18:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.091855.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (06)

Beste Mike,

Du schreyvst:

> HURRAY!!!

Perhaps you didn't realize what this action means.

According to the list of place names Heiko had sent there are about 50
villages to re-name (why not more?). That makes 100 plates which have to be
demounted, to be labeled and enameled newly and then to be re-mounted again.
According to our local 'Stra?enmeisterei' (road maintenance staff) it makes
about 3,000 EURO per each- in summary 300,000 EURO. And that for just the
doubtful change of one letter?! Couldn't this money be spend for better
destinations?

What the heck is the difference between e.g. 'L?tjensee' and 'L?ttensee'?
Ridiculous, isn't it? "Eine echte deutsche Amtsposse (a 'bureaucratic coup
de farce')- Schilda (pun intended) l?sst gr??en!"

After generations of foreign geometers, half-analphabetical 'Amtsschreibern'
(communal clerks) now we meet the generation of non-native people to
arrogate themselves, as a sovereign act of the provincial government
('fastleggen'), to fog continuously grown structures.

And how should it be run in Northern Frisia? As far as I know some villages
there have, besides their official German name, a Danish, a North Frisian
and a Low Saxon one. New Babylon!

And- as Ron mentioned if I understand him correctly- there should be really
existing, still used Low Saxon names. If not, why to invent them? For what
reason if the people, the inhabitants themselves don't use or even never
have heard them? Just to bedevil the tourists ;-)?

I cannot imagine at all that this kind of an administrative act should
be useful for the sake of LS.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]

Liebe Freunde zweisprachiger Ortstafeln!
Dear friends of bilingual topographic names!

Habt ihr bei den Bem?hungen um zweisprachige Ortstafeln nicht manchmal Angst
davor, unfreiwillig zur Minderheit im eigenen Land zu werden? Die meisten
Ortsnamen und sonstigen topographischen Namen in Norddeutschland sind doch
gemischt hoch- und niederdeutsch, man sollte sich da nichts vormachen. Und
so schlecht ist das doch nicht, ganz im Gegenteil. F?r mich sind sie ohnehin
eher nieder- als hochdeutsch. Beispielsweise verwendet man in den
offiziellen Ortsnamen dieses Kreises zwar offensichtlich einheitlich -dorf
statt -d?rp, andererseits -bek statt -bach, "-wohld" statt "-wald", "-hoop"
statt "-haufen", "-have" statt "hafen", "L?tje-" statt "Klein-" u.?.

Wenn ich mir die Liste

http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html

genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest denkbar, dass als Gegenreaktion
rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden, wie zb. Bad Altenlohe, Barssiedel,
Bruch, Brunsbach (Braunbach), Gr?nwald, Heidekampf, Heilshaufen, Jersbach,
Lasbach, Kleinsee, M?nchhagen, Neuwald, Oststeinbach, Reinbach, Siech,
Zangstadt, Tremssiedel, Witzhafen.

The topograghic names in this part((Kreis [=district] Stormarn) and also in
other parts  of Northern Germany are actually partly High German, partly Low
German/Saxon. For example they use HG "-dorf" instead of "-d?rp" on the
other hand LG/LS "-bek" instead of "bach".

The consequent divide of High- and Low-German/Saxon names could result in a
involuntarily linguistic and ethnic separation and lead the declared
Low-German/Saxon into a minority status in their own land!

Examples:

official name: Ammersbek (allegedly HG, in fact LG/LS!)
proposed LS: Ammersbeek (only a orthographic adjustment)
"real" HG and so a possible backlash: Ammersbach

official: Bad Oldesloe (again: this is rather LG/LS than High German!)
LS proposal: Bad Oschloe
HG backlash: Bad Altenlohe

In a HG reaction of purism also "-b?ttel" consequently would be replaced by
something like "-siedel" (you discussed these words before), "-wohld" by
"-wald", "-have" by "-hafen" (Witzhave/Witzhafen), "Braak" would be "Bruch",
"Heilshoop" - "Heilshaufen", "M?nkhagen" - "M?nchhagen", "Tangstedt" -
"Zangstadt" etc (see above).

Hence the mixed Low- /High-German names are not that bad, methinks.

Regards
Karl-Heinz
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/38e5c14e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 17:21:16 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:21:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.092116.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

 Anyway, since I am leaving Japan (after 18 years) for better parts
(India), I needed to change my subscription email address, which lead
our most gracious Ron aka Reinhard (or is it vice versa?) to respond
Mike,

What're ya gonna be doin' down in India? I go to church with several friends
from South India back in Arizona. What were you up to up in Japan? You
haven't forgotten the good oal US of A have ya?
Ben

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

In message
<57c981290711080824v1574978cn994660450f988465 at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> writes
>It is now my turn to ask for your prayers for my Ruth. On Friday she
>goes in
>for tests for a possible nervous degenerative disease called the CMT
>Syndrome. It starts at the extremities, & her feet are already being
>affected, that is why we went to the doctor. She is a dancer. Later it
>will
>affect her hands, & she is a musician. That's all for now, but even as
>your
>prayers fortified her & saved me may we hope they may again do the same
>for
>us.

Dear Mark,

My thoughts are with you both!

Since the symptoms/results you mentioned sounded very like one of the
things which may lie in my future (diabetic neuropathy), I did a quick
look through my links looking Charcot Marie Tooth disease, and see it is
similar in some ways.  Since massive doses of vitamin C (think 6,000
oranges a day, not six!!!) are being trialled for both, it seems to me
there may even be a similar cause.

Do let me know if you want me to pass on some links to information and
support groups.

Best wishes,

Pat

--
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/e92937fa/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 18:44:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:44:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.104431.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

Hi all,

And suddenly, while reading your posting, Mark, I remembered another
relative to skoor/skor/sk?r/skaar, namely 'skoorvoet' (Hy loop
skoorvoeterig rond om moeilikheid te maak" (walking around looking for
trouble), 'skoorsoek' (looking for trouble) as in 'Die ou man is baie
skoorsoekerig as sy tablette opraak".

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.08 (03) [E]

Beste Ben,

you wrote:

> could this be the origin of the surname Skarsted?
It sounds very Scandinavian, and I guess it has got the same roots. In Old
Icelandic we find *'sker'*, meaning 'cliff', and in German we have 'die Sch*
ae*re', that's an isolated rock sorrounded by water and also survived in
English as 'skerry'.

BTW: all these words point to Germanic *'skur'* and mean *'to cut'* in the
widest sense- in German a pair of scissors is 'die Sch*e*re'.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

   - English: O. *sc?ar* (sg.) -> *sc?rero ~ **sc?reru ** *(pl.) >
Mid. *sch?ren
   ~ sheres *(pl.) > Mod. *shears*
   - Scots: *sc?ar* (sg.) > *shear*
   - Frisian: W. *skjirre
   *
   - Saxon: *sk?ra *(German *Schere* >?) > *scheyr* (*Scheer ~ Schier ~
   Schiar* ~ *Schea*)
   - Dutch: Mid.* schaer(e)* > Mod. *schaar*
   - Dutch: Mid.* **schaer(e)* > Afrikaans *sk?r
   *
   - Norse:* sk?ri* (pl.) > Icelandic *sk?ri*, Norwegian dial. *skj?ra *(fem.)
   ~ *skj?re *(masc.)**
   - German: O. *sc?ra* ~ *sk?r* -> *sk?ri* (pl.) > Mid. *sch?re *> Mod.
   *Schere*, Alemannic *Sch?r*
   - German: Mid. *sch?re* > Yiddish ??? *sher*
   - > Slovenian *?k?rje*, Croatian *?kare* (cf. Serbian *?????? makaze*),
   Sami *sk?r'rit ~ skierat* (pl. -*(V)t*), Estonian *k??rid* (pl. *-(i)d
   *)

Cf.

   - cf. Old Saxon *sahs* 'short sword', 'long knife' >
*skersahs*'shearing knife'
   - Old English *seax, s?x*, *sex* 'short sword', 'long knife'
   - Old German *sahs* 'short sword', 'long knife'
   - **sahs* 'short sword', 'long knife' + pl. > Danish *sakser* (pl. *
   -er*), Faeroese *saksur* (pl. *-ur*), Finnish *sakset* (pl. *-(V)t*)
   - *> *Old Saxon, Old German *sahso*, Old English *seax(e)* 'Saxon'
   - > Old Norse *saks(a)-* 'Saxon ...'
   - > Estonian, Finnish *Saksa* 'Saxony' > 'Germany'

Cf.

   - Czech *n??ky* (< "knives"), Slovak *no?nice*, Russian *??????? **
   no?nicy*, Ukrainian *?????? **no?ycy* ("little knives")

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/ba565087/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 22:21:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:21:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (06) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.142153.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

Beste allen,
Zo'n klip, een "onderzeewaterrots", noemen wij te Oostende: e bl?nde sjh?r.
Een arduinen tegelvloer is in het West-Vlaams: e sjhorre.
De bloem uit het Zwin (oude zeeboezem die vroeger van Brugge tot bij Knokke
liep) heet lamsoor; in ons dialect heet die bloem "sjhorreblomme" of
"zwieneblomme".
Het Nederlands schoor is ook een steunbalk, in ons dialect "sjhoerienge".
Doet mij hieraan denken: schouders (shoulders) steunen toch ook; daar zou
wel eens een verband met "schoren kunnen zijn. Schouders zijn bij ons
trouwens: sjhoeres!
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck

----------

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

From wkv at home.nl  wim verdoold zwolle netherlands

Hi,

The latin word for Stone comes to mind, saxum

Knives used to be made of stone, might that be connected too?

wim [Verdoold]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

I wrote today:

   - German: O. *sc?ra* ~ *sk?r* -> *sk?ri* (pl.) > Mid. *sch?re *> Mod.
   *Schere*, Alemannic *Sch?r*
   - German: Mid. *sch?re* > Yiddish ??? *sher*
   - > Slovenian *?k?rje*, Croatian *?kare* (cf. Serbian *?????? makaze*),
   Sami *sk?r'rit ~ skierat* (pl. -*(V)t*), Estonian *k??rid* (pl. *-(i)d
   *)

I failed to mention that the words in the last line all mean 'scissors'.

Ditto here:

   - Czech *n??ky* (< "knives"), Slovak *no?nice*, Russian *??????? **
   no?nicy*, Ukrainian *?????? **no?ycy* ("little knives")

Please note that these and the other words I mentioned encompass the
semantic range of *'cut' and *'shears' ~ *'scissors'. Furthermore,
apparently they are related to words in the *'short' range as well (and to
words derived from these); cf.

   - English: O. *sc(e)ort* > Mid. *s(c)hort* > Mod. *short*
   - Frisian: O. *kort* > *kort*
   - Saxon: O. *kurt* > *kurt ~ kort ~ kott*
   - Dutch: *kort, schorten*
   - German: O. *scorz* ~ *kurz* > *kurz*
   - Norse: *kortr* > *kort*

These are related to *shirt* and *skirt*, also with German *Scherz* 'joke'
(< "little piece"), and they all go back to Germanic **skerd-* <
**sker-*'to cut' < Indo-European *
*ker-*, **sker-*.

There is a relationship between the above and words of the (*sceard* >)
"shard" ~ "sherd" group; e.g., Frisian (*skerd *>) W. *skird, *N. *skaard**,
schaard*, *scherd*), Low Saxon (*skard* >) *schaard* (*Schaart, Schort*,
etc.), Dutch (*scharde* ~ *schart* >) *schaard*, etc.

Wim, I'm not sure if Latin *saxum* falls into this category, but it may
well. It is related to the **sek-* 'to cut' group (as in *section* for
instance and most other Romance and also Celtic word related to "cut"), to
which also the *scythe* subgroup belongs, as well as Old English *secg
*'sword'.
If *saxum* does belong to this, this would be interesting in that it might
take us back to the use of stone tools.

Again, note how many words are related with each other and what this may
entail regarding the vocabulary size of the the ancestral languages.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/94713225/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 22:27:56 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:27:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.142756.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

 Bester Karl-Heinz!

You hit the nail right on its head, Alder!

The voice of reason from Southern Middle Europe.

Habe die Ehre!! (Gr?az' i?)
Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Jonny,

Weren't you the one that told us about all those misunderstandings (folk
etymologies due to false friends) leading to mistranslations in the creation
of German equivalents of Low Saxon names during Germanization of what is now
Northern Germany?

Kumpelmenten!
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

Jonni, Karl-Heinz, put water in the wine of my enthousism.
It would appear to me that all one would have to do is to
search archives to determine the genuine LS names.
(Barmbeck, instead of the LS/HG bastard "Barmbek".for example)
"All one would have to do..." how long would that take?
Are there enough qualified volunteers to do that?
I say hurray to the fact that something is moving
at all.
Of course, if the authorities take this as an alibi,
not to implement the Eur. Charta any further, because
they have "done it" already, then this whole thing is a shot
in the foot for us.
What it boils down to is that it is too little too late.
Much too little much too late.
Sadly yours, Mike Wintzer
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/e9e2f4cf/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  9 20:08:52 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:08:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.09 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.NOV.2007.120852.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  07 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "List communication" 2007.11.08 (02)

 Dear Pat,

you wrote in answering

*Peter 'Snipecatcher'*
> > Please try to list in english also as we are not all as gifted as all
>> you folks on the list and we do need to make the list as accesible as
>> possible.

*here:*
> I don't mind it ... this is why (just my thoughts).
...
> In not-idle
> moments, I delete, unread, things without E in the subject line
> (although I admit I didn't recognise this useful tag for too long!)

Traitresse ;-)!

We are NOT any homuncenous group of acquademics and intellecturers with just
a limited width of interests dealing with specialised themas.
A large number of our members for my guessing are not explicitely aeducated
for the subjects they're posting or have to reed above.
Tak me, for exampel. Though I think i've had a quite god aeducation in
Englisch language at school and later at the Navy's i hadn't been in contect
with practising it for mor then  25 jears- more or less. I hadn't dealed
with linguisms and its 'termini technici' outside of the school- and that at
least nearly happened 40 jears ago.
But- I guess everyone who is really interested in the matters we diskuss IS
able to give a little hint now and then to explane his (partly very special;
without a chance for a good dictionary) weirdest terms and writing systems.

Obviously our Kanuma at the moment is busy outside the list, otherwise he
would perhaps have told you that some years ago we came to a sort of
agreement that we should use two languages if possible. And I have done so,
for a long time, but finding out that I seemed to be part of a very small,
decreasing minority I ceesed to transscribe hole textes.

I have to agrea Peter- sometimes it could be very useful to see leastwise
some English explanations within the text (in special at our Afrikaans
friends; it's not always very easy to understand them even for a native
Lowlanner ;-)).

> This is because it is far easier to read in an
> additional language than it is to write, so we include people who
> (think) their English isn't good enough,
You might see- I don't think this weigh ;-)!

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

*PS:* Again I'd like to recommend http://wordweb.info/ as a very useful tool
for every non-native English writer. Fast and encyclopaedic. But if you want
to install it you have to vend your Jeep and cross the Antlantic with
H.M.S"Queen Mary II"...

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071109/44c4c9ef/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 18:02:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:02:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.100200.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

Elsie gives the definition of Afrikaans skoorzoek as looking for trouble and
skoorvoet as walking around looking for trouble.

Hi Elsie, Guess what! In Dutch schoorvoetend means (and I am quoting van
Dale) " de voeten schrap zettend, thans  alleen fig. tegenstribbelend,
aarzelend of weifelend voort- of te werk gaan". If we assume that the word
came to South Africa with the original sailors, we need to ask somebody with
a historical dictionary to find out what it meant in the 16th century and
whether the meaning changed in the Northern hemisphere or in the South.
Jacqueline
----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (06) [D/E]

> From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]
[...]
> Doet mij hieraan denken: schouders (shoulders)
> steunen toch ook; daar zou
> wel eens een verband met "schoren kunnen zijn.
> Schouders zijn bij ons
> trouwens: sjhoeres!
> Toetnoasteki,
> Roland Desnerck

Hallo,

'schouders / shoulders' hadden 1000 jaar terug vormen
met 'sculd'.

Dus maar niet bij  'schoren'.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Lowlanders,

According to Daniel Cassidy, much of (American) English slang was
actually derived from Irish.
The guy won the American Book Award for nonfiction this year with a book
in which he explains how common words like "dork", "slum", "buddy",
"geezer", "dude", "dig" and many others can all be traced back to Irish
Gaelic.

More here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/nyregion/08irish.html?em&ex=1194843600&en=1c7fcd79481b7928&ei=5087%0A

Nice vid btw.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Above, Jacqueline quotes van Dale regarding Afrikaans *skorvoet* and Dutch *
schoorvoetend*:
" de voeten schrap zettend, thans  alleen fig. tegenstribbelend, aarzelend
of weifelend voort- of te werk gaan"

Hmm ... I wonder if this has anything to do with German and Low Saxon *scharren
~ schurren* 'to scrape', 'to shuffel (one's feet)'. If so, there's supposed
to be a connection between this and German *schaben*, Low Saxon
*schaven*and English
*shave*.

This may may show us once again that a large number of forms have been
generated from a fairly small number of ancestral roots.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/c562aab2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 18:26:57 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:26:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.10 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.102657.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Member's news" 2007.11.08 (04) [E]

 Sorry brah, I wen forget ALL da kine pidgins was Lowlands (I come
Pearl side, but live long time up Makiki way -- mauka-side, brah, so
no LOW lands, so no give me da stink eye, eh?). Ain no way I go India
widout my copy Lee Tonouchi's Living Pidgin an' also Da Word (dat one
FUNNY book, eh, j'like wen we waz kids) ... So dat make, wat, EIGHT
Lowlands languages I gon take wit? Eh braddah, get so many! Maybe
betta jes go whole cheese and take 'em all!
Ok whoa! That was cool Mike! Was that Tok Pissin or Bicilama? I'm fascinated
by the English creoles, especially the ones down in the Caribbean.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ben, Mike, folks,

Apart from the entertainment value that pidgin and creole varieties tend to
have, I believe they are extremely valuable scientifically as well in that
they offer a fairly clear glimpse at an important part of language
development.

After all, there is no language on earth that has escaped contacts with
other languages, contacts that more or less influenced it and its further
development. So there is really no strict dividing line between "mixed
languages" and "pure languages," the latter of which are just a figment of
people's wishful thinking.

Pidgins and creoles (the former being non-native, the latter native) are
simply the most extreme type on a sliding scale, followed closely by *
Missingsch* and *Stadfries* types, followed by varieties exemplified by
Gullah, African American Vernacular (Ebonics). And English, Scots and
Afrikaans are not very far behind, then English of South and Southeast Asia,
then English anywhere outside Europe ... and so forth. Yiddish, Ladino and
the many other Jewish languages fit in there somewhere, too. If we care to
pay attention, we can now witness the early evolution of Turkish-, Kurdish-
and Arabic- and otherwise influenced varieties of Danish, Dutch, German,
French, etc.

One of the beauties of pidgins and creoles is that they show us the dynamics
and processes at the most extreme within fairly short periods of time.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/b8aea83e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 19:04:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:04:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.110448.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]

 From: Yasuji Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp
Subject: Plattdeutche Ortnamen

Hallo Heiko san,
I opened the site which you had itroduced and wonder whether these
plattdeutsche Ortnamen have been used since old time in this area or newly
trasnlated into Plattdeutsch. Would you please answer to my question?

Hartlich Greuten,
Yasuji, ut Japan

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: Der Kreis Stormarn hat jetzt die plattdeutschen Namen offziell
festgelegt

Leve Lowlanners,

kiekt mal op
http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html

De Krink Stormarn hett tosamen mit de Fehrs-Gill de plattd??tschen Naams f?r
de ??rd in Stormarn fastleggt, dormit de op de Oortsschiller kamen k??nt.

Hartlich Gr?ten,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

Leve L??d,
> Perhaps you didn't realize what this action means.
>
> According to the list of place names Heiko had sent there are about 50
> villages to re-name (why not more?). That makes 100 plates which have to
be
> demounted, to be labeled and enameled newly and then to be re-mounted
> again. According to our local 'Stra?enmeisterei' (road maintenance staff)
> it makes about 3,000 EURO per each- in summary 300,000 EURO. And that for
> just the doubtful change of one letter?! Couldn't this money be spend for
> better destinations?
1) It is not the village that is to be "renamed". It is a question of
bilingual roadsigns.
2) Such bilingual roadsigns are a direct consequence of the European Charter
for the protection of minority and regional languages. So we do not have to
discuss whether or not to do those sign. They *will* be made. The only
questions are
2.1) what are the Low Saxon names
2.2) when will the road signs be replaced. A sign does not cost 3.000 EUR
each. As long as you do only replace the road sign itself (not the sign
post), signs are available from 40 EUR each plus VAT (that would make about
50 EUR per sign), when you order sufficiently high amounts. (I do have such
an offer from an official sign making company at home). Some administration
has put incredibly high prices in circulation just to undermine the change
process. A whole smaller town could change 20 signs for about 1000 EUR,
which
should be within the budget limits. And I would say that money would be well
spent. One could also try to find sponsors. In the case of Glinde, there is
an offer (as far as I remember) by the local Plattdeutschverein to pay half
of the money. Another important thing to remember is that roadsigns have a
"life expectancy" of about 10 years. So every now and then a road sign will
have to be replaced anyway. If one just decides to use the bilingual signs
from now on, then the whole replacing would be done within 10 years with NO
SINGLE EXTRA EURO SPENT!!!!

> What the heck is the difference between e.g. 'L?tjensee' and 'L?ttensee'?
> Ridiculous, isn't it? "Eine echte deutsche Amtsposse (a 'bureaucratic coup
> de farce')- Schilda (pun intended) l?sst gr??en!"
You are completely missing the point. The point is to make Low Saxon visible
to everyone who passes through the city.

> After generations of foreign geometers, half-analphabetical
> 'Amtsschreibern' (communal clerks) now we meet the generation of
non-native
> people to arrogate themselves, as a sovereign act of the provincial
> government ('fastleggen'), to fog continuously grown structures.
Please stick to the truth. Non-native? Those people involved in making the
list where native speakers and they asked the local native speakers of the
towns for their opinions.

> And how should it be run in Northern Frisia? As far as I know some
villages
> there have, besides their official German name, a Danish, a North Frisian
> and a Low Saxon one. New Babylon!
In some cases there might be a need for more than 2 names on the road sign.
I
am just wondering why you are not complaining about the North Frisian names
on the road signs. There the process has been the same. It took quite a
while
of lobbying work until the government understood its obligations that it
entered when it recognized North Frisian as protected language under the EU
language charter. And then the names were listed and then the road signs
were
changed. Do you also complain here, when Breklum (German) and Br??klem
(North
Frisian) do not differ much? In your opinion: Was the money wasted there?
Just in case you think so: it does not make a difference. Pacta sunt
servanda. If you sign a EU language charter you are bound to protect the
languages that you named.

> And- as Ron mentioned if I understand him correctly- there should be
really
> existing, still used Low Saxon names. If not, why to invent them? For what
> reason if the people, the inhabitants themselves don't use or even never
> have heard them? Just to bedevil the tourists ;-)?
The current names are not "unreal", they were made by native speakers in
close
collaboration. If there is any name where you have a better proposal, please
name it here and we can discuss about it.

> Wenn ich mir die Liste
>
> http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html
>
> genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest denkbar, dass als Gegenreaktion
> rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden, wie zb. Bad Altenlohe,
> Barssiedel, Bruch, Brunsbach (Braunbach), Gr?nwald, Heidekampf,
> Heilshaufen, Jersbach, Lasbach, Kleinsee, M?nchhagen, Neuwald,
> Oststeinbach, Reinbach, Siech, Zangstadt, Tremssiedel, Witzhafen.
Among all the Dummt??ch that I have read and heard in the news this year,
nothing even comes close to this comment of yours.

Heiko

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Moin, Heiko!

Thanks for clarifying various points above, some of which were news to me.

Just for the record, in case this got lost in the shuffle, my question about
the authenticity of Low Saxon place name choices was not meant to imply
opposition to the project. I was merely mystified, in part by Jonny's
response (e.g. "ancestors spinning in their graves") as well as by gaps in
my knowledge. It would indeed by very useful for all of us if we were kept
current on this so as to avoid ingestion of red herrings.

I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language assertion
events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to increased Welsh
language use in the late 20th century on a road paved with bureaucratic
stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this with us quite some time
ago.

I have a question with regard to Schleswig-Holstein, with relevance to the
Saterland area of Lower Saxony as well.

As most of us know, Schleswig-Holstein is the linguistically most diverse
state of Germany, if we don't consider "foreigners'" languages everywhere.
It is true that some communities use more than two languages. I have
noticed, for instance on language maps, that people want to whittle this
down to a maximum of two languages, such as German and North Frisian in
Northern Friesland, when Low Saxon and in some cases Danish are used there
as well (and Low Saxon is used in Saterland as well). Personally I don't
object to more than two languages on a sign (as long as signs are designed
in a clear fashion), find objections to this little more than a diversion
technique. So, my question is if there are going to be restrictions in this
regard.

It is always easy to dismiss efforts like this sign project as
inconsequential, as frivolous and as tokenism. However, I believe that
symbolism is worth some money and effort in that its visibility is likely to
be both educational and encouraging. The alternative would be business as
usual, which means ignoring, non-recognition, misinformation, ignorance and
in many cases probably the wish to hasten language death to bring about
fulfillment of the (pipe) dream of linguistic "purity" and homogeneity as
main ingredients for the creation of "unity" within national boundaries.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/5abe7cca/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 19:31:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:31:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.113142.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (01) [D/E]

Elsie gives the definition of Afrikaans skoorzoek as looking for trouble and
skoorvoet as walking around looking for trouble.

Hi Elsie, Guess what! In Dutch schoorvoetend means (and I am quoting van
Dale) " de voeten schrap zettend, thans  alleen fig. tegenstribbelend,
aarzelend of weifelend voort- of te werk gaan". If we assume that the word
came to South Africa with the original sailors, we need to ask somebody with
a historical dictionary to find out what it meant in the 16th century
andwhether the meaning changed in the Northern hemisphere or in the South.
Jacqueline

And then Ron comes up with this:

<<Hmm ... I wonder if this has anything to do with German and Low
Saxon *scharren
~ schurren* 'to scrape', 'to <shuffel (one's feet)'. If so, there's supposed
to be a connection between this and German *schaben*, Low <Saxon
*schaven*and English
*shave*.
<This may may show us once again that a large number of forms have been
generated from a fairly small <number of ancestral roots.

Dutch knows both ""schaven" (to plane, to polish and that must certainly be
a 1st cousin to chafe) and "scheren" (to shave a beard or to shear a sheep)

There is another Dutch derivation?? with a totally differerent meaning. "Een
mensenschaar a large group of people" from the verb "scharen" to come
together for a lofty purpose. How interesting to see one root acquire so
many different meanings. Jacqueline
----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Howdy, Naversch Jacqueline!

There is another Dutch derivation?? with a totally differerent meaning. "Een
mensenschaar a large group of people" from the verb "scharen" to come
together for a lofty purpose.

Indeed! I see your etymological antennae are growing very nicely.

Dutch and Low Saxon *schaar* and German *Schar *'host (of people)' do indeed
belong to this family, as does ... tadah! ... English "share" both in the
sense of "division" and "blade of a plow".

And here's another tadah: "sharp" and its equivalents are members of this
family as well!

How interesting to see one root acquire so many different meanings.

This is one of the reasons why etymology can be quite thrilling (probably in
a "geeky" sort of way).

As you can see, we are dealing with roots and affixes. In this regard,
Indo-European is very much like its two large Eurasian comrades: Uralic and
Altaic, except that they only use suffixes (such as the **-p* in "sharp"),
no prefixes (such as the **s-* in this family of **ker-* *'cut').

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/6c8e3528/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 10 19:37:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:37:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.10 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.113747.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.09 (03) [E]

 Haai, Elsie!

Subject: L-Lowlands (terminology).

Come, let us prick Ron's curiosity.

As you report, Oorlams is a rural-based creole mostly found in the Northern
Cape and Namibia,
interspersed with Nama... & Incidentally, the adjective 'oorlams' means
to be cheeky, excited, insolent.

But that's not all, & to follow the word in it's history casts in an
unforgiving light the presumption that this our South Africa ever developed
in isolation.

In the earlier years of our history you got three classes of South African
White - those straight from Nederland(ideally) were dubbed 'Vaderlands'.
Those who had acquired further polish in the Far East were dubbed 'Oorlams',
& those who had the misfortune to be born & bred in this country passed for
'Afrikaner'.

The Verklarende Afrikaanse Woordeboek (Kritzinger, Labuschagne & Nienaber)
has this to say, (in translation with the sister volume Kritzinger, Steyn,
Schoonees & Cronje'), clever, handy, shrewd, sharp, fly (*'n oorlamse
skepsel*) a Hottentot, Bushman or even Bantu well-versed in the language &
ways of white people; an old hand.

Boshoff & Nienaber (Afrikaanse Terminologie) trace it back as early as Van
Riebeek to the Malayan 'orang lama' = someone that (long ago) came (to the
Far East).

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks a lot for educating us further about Oorlams, Mark. Very interesting!

If we had an Oorlams wren I would use this information in the accompanying
information ... 8-)

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I hope everything went well for your Ruth yesterday. Please give her
my love and encouragement.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/9593d619/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 01:38:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:38:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.173842.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: "Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: CMT Syndrome

Dear All,

Nearly hot off the press: Neurologist is sending me for tests in January,
but highly doubts I have anything other than really deformed feet! (Never
thought that would be a good thing, but it obviously can be.) Says if I've
had the foot problem for years I would have other symptoms, too. Very
relieved and thankful for your support...

Ruth/ Caterina

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Members' news

Thanks a lot, Ruth! I was thinking of you ever since Mark gave us the news.

This is great, at least as far as an interim report is concerned. Keep that
up!

In the meantime, take lots of foot baths, then have Mark massage your poor,
little footsie, and you'll be good for hitting the dance floor and knocking
'em dead as usual, you belle of the ball, you.

Love and best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/e2ee18be/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 01:43:06 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:43:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.174306.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.10 (01) [D/E]

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
> Beste Lowlanders,
>
> According to Daniel Cassidy, much of (American) English slang was
> actually derived from Irish.
> The guy won the American Book Award for nonfiction this year with a
book
> in which he explains how common words like "dork", "slum", "buddy",
> "geezer", "dude", "dig" and many others can all be traced back to
Irish
> Gaelic.
>
> More here:
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/nyregion/08irish.html?em&ex=1194843600&en=1c7fcd79481b7928&ei=5087%
>0A

Amateur etymology at its worst.

"Buddy" is from the Irish "bodach" meaning "lusty youth"? Why not from
West Country English "butty", meaning "friend"? Note the semantic
equivalence.

"Glom" is a Scots word cognate with English "glum" and so on. Again,
these are semantically related, "glum" being the sort of face a person
makes when an uncomfortable truth suddenly dawns on them (see Scottish
National Dictionary for more).

This isn't to say that he's wrong about everything, but if you set out
to prove that everything comes from some favoured language, you'll find
plenty of coincidental "evidence". Look at the "some American Indian
tribes speak Welsh" fiasco.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/92bc54c1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 02:32:15 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:32:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (08) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.183215.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Moin, Heiko!
> I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language
> assertion events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to
> increased Welsh language use in the late 20th century on a road paved
> with bureaucratic stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this
> with us quite some time ago.

It was just a matter of civil servants in London ruling that if signs
were to be changed to bilingual English and Welsh, then an application
would have to be made for each sign individually. So Welsh language
activists started doing exactly that. In the end it would seem that it
was easier to just put up all new signs as bilingual than put up a new
sign in English only to have to go back and change it after it was
spotted by a Welsh speaker.

As an aside, on a recent weekend in Jersey (not New Jersey!) I was a bit
surprised at the way signage was handled. Street and road names were
either in French or English, but not both. Occasionally a street would
have a sign in both French and English - but only because the name of
the street was completely different in French from in English, ie the
signage wasn't a translation.

It seems to me that streets were signed as whatever people actually
called them, and this is normally either French or English, but not
both?

I only saw one example of signage in Jersey French, which was the
"Welcome to Jersey" sign etched on the class door at the boat terminal
in St Helier. There was no accompanying English or French.

Unfortunately none of the Local Interest sections of Jersey bookshops
seemed to have anything in or about Jersey French.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Heiko Evermann <Heiko.Evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]

Hi Yasuji Waki,
> I opened the site which you had itroduced and wonder whether these
> plattdeutsche Ortnamen have been used since old time in this area or newly
> trasnlated into Plattdeutsch. Would you please answer to my question?
Actually, I do not know how old the names are. I just know
1) from my E-mail contacts with Heinrich Thies, that they had quite some
discussions with local people and took their wishes. This led to some
irregularities: -beek vs. -b??k, P?litz (slavic name kept) vs. Barns (slavic
name Barnitz adapted), Oschloe (where I would have suggested Oschloh)
2) that the names look quite natural to me. So it does not matter whether
the name is 1000 years old, 100 years or a recent adaption. What matters is
that they make sense and that the local people were involved and asked for
their opinion
3) any mistakes could still be changed if a better name is proposed or a
different name is proven to be in actual use.

Hi Ron,
> I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language
> assertion
> events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to increased
> Welsh
> language use in the late 20th century on a road paved with bureaucratic
> stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this with us quite some time
> ago.
That is my hope, too. For that people have to notice the language as often
as possible and road signs are a valuable part of that. Of course other
steps have to follow like: usage of the language in the official web pages.
A good example for this is New Zealand where every official website seems to
use at least a little bit of Maori, like the university of Christchurch, see
http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/ in the upper right corner. Even if it is just
the letterhead of official letters or the signature (der B?rgermeister von
Gro?hansdorf/de B?rgermeester vun Groothansd?rp). This would show a respect
for the language that is often missing nowadays and I am very sure that it
would help.

> I have a question with regard to Schleswig-Holstein, with relevance to the
> Saterland area of Lower Saxony as well.
>
> As most of us know, Schleswig-Holstein is the linguistically most diverse
> state of Germany, if we don't consider "foreigners'" languages everywhere.
> It is true that some communities use more than two languages. I have
> noticed, for instance on language maps, that people want to whittle this
> down to a maximum of two languages, such as German and North Frisian in
> Northern Friesland, when Low Saxon and in some cases Danish are used there
> as well (and Low Saxon is used in Saterland as well). Personally I don't
> object to more than two languages on a sign (as long as signs are designed
> in a clear fashion), find objections to this little more than a diversion
> technique. So, my question is if there are going to be restrictions in
> this
> regard.
The official "Erlass" by the ministry in Kiel is reported in
http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/HinweisePlatt.htm
"Eine Ausgestaltung von Ortstafeln in mehr als zwei Sprachen sollte
m?glichst vermieden werden, zumal ein "Katalog" unterschiedlicher
Ortsbezeichnungen auch die Aussagekraft der einzelnen Zusatzbezeichnungen
erheblich schm?lern w?rde. Die Einzelfallentscheidung bleibt insoweit der
jeweiligen Gemeinde ?berlassen."
To this I would say: Well, dream on and get familiar with the contents and
the spirit of the EU language charter. But at least it says "sollte
m?glichst vermieden werden" (should be avoided if possible) and "Die
Einzelfallentscheidung bkleibt insoweit der jeweiligen Gemeinde ?berlassen".
(The decision is with the local community)
I do not know how many communities would be affected by this rule. I just
know that the Danes (their minority party SSW) were the first to complain.
 Even though they do not do German "subtitles" on their side of the border
at all!!! And even though they did not have any Danish roadsigns in
Sleswig-Holsteen so far. My guess is that not even the government in Kiel
knows how many communities would have a problem. It was quite an effort to
compile the list for Stormarn (not within the Danish or the North Frisian
area), so probably not even the Low Saxons in the affected areas would know.
We will just wait what happens and my personal guess is that we will have a
certain number of communities that will make use of the exception. The
problem will probably be of a limited scope for Low Saxon as I do not expect
Low Saxon place names for North Frisian place names like "Breklum" or
"H?rnum". I would expect to see more trouble between Danes and Frisians, but
we will have to see. Over time the ministry in Kiel will have to accept road
signs with three names.

By the way, Jonny, is there any place where you have a better proposal for a
Low Saxon place name? The current list is going to settle into the minds of
the people a litte bit more every day. It will be copied, it will be found
by google, the names are already in the Wikipeida, it will just stick. So
hurry up. :)
Hartlich Gr?ten,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks a lot, Sandy and Heiko!

Heiko, I have a possibly sensative question about the thing with the Danish
community. If you don't have the answer(s), perhaps you could ask Heinrich
Thies.

I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area." Yes, the by far
highest concentration of ethnic Danes of the state live in the north, namely
in Schleswig, the closer to the border the higher the concentration.

(Remember that, technically speaking, Schleswig-Holstein is Southern Jutland
and that many Danes think of it that way, though *S?nderjylland/Synnejylland
* "Southern Jutland" is now an administrative area within today's Denmark,
and pretty much all Danes think of Schleswig on today's German side of the
border as *S?nderslesig/Synneslesvig* "Southern Schleswig," as opposed
to *Nordslesvig
*"Northern Schleswig" on today's Danish side of the border.)

As may be known to many of our Lowlanders, pretty much all of today's German
state of Schleswig-Holstein was Danish territory for quite some time, all
the way down to the northern bank of the Elbe Rivers. In fact, some
communities that have meanwhile been integrated into the city state Hamburg
(e.g. Altona) used to be under the Danish crown as well. For this reason,
there are many place names all over the state whose names have Danish
equivalents as well (even Hamburg = Hamborg, which was just outside Denmark
then).

As I said, this may be politically sensitive, but how is this going to be
handled?

I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area," since this sounds
a bit like a "homeland" in the old South African context. While there are
areal concentrations, I know that Danish Germans live all over the state,
especially in the larger towns and cities and of course in and around the
capital Kiel, since ethnic Danes participate in pretty much everything like
everyone else, and it's their state as well -- the *whole* state. This is
similar to speakers of Low Saxons, while even within its "homeland" Northern
Friesland the Frisian community is now sparse and mostly rural, and there
are few actual communities of North Frisian speakers outside, with the
exception of Kiel maybe.

As a member of the Scandinavian Association I used to rub shoulders with
lots of Danes of Northern Germany, temporary and permanent Danish
expatriates as well as Danish Germans. There was then a pretty darn large
community of them in and around Hamburg, and I expect this hasn't changed
much. Some Danes came from nearby, i.e. from southern places in
Schleswig-Holstein when there were large meetings in Hamburg (e.g. in the
Christmas season), and I understand that they had smaller communities where
they lived. Bear in mind that after World War II many Schleswig Germans or
part-Germans declared themselves Danish, also that frequently Danish was
chosen as the home language in cases of "mixed" marriages, and not all of
those people remained in the north. -- I think that by now you got my point.

I realize that, should this be considered in name displays, this could open
an old can of worms. This would not be a can strictly of German worms for
ethnic Germans and Danish worms for ethnic Danes, but many ethnic Germans,
especially in the north of the state, have traditions of favoring Danish
rule to German rule, at least within the Schleswig area. Could fear of this
be in part to blame for not applying Danish naming throughout the state?

Below is a list of color-coded examples.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

*German  Low Saxon  Frisian  Danish*

Bredstedt  (Breestedt?)  Br?ist  Bredsted

Eckernf?rde  Eckernf?r/Eckernf??r  ?  Egernf?rde/Ekernf?rde/Egernfjord

Fehmarn  Fehmarn  ?  Femern

Flensburg  Flensborg  Flansborj  Flensborg

Friedrichstadt  (Freerkstadt?)  Fr??rst??  Frederiksstad

Gl?cksburg  Gl?cksborg/L?cksborg  ?  Lyksborg

Gl?ckstadt  Gl?ckstadt  ?  Lykstad

Harrislee  Harrislee  ?  Harreslev

Helgoland  Helgoland  de?t Lun/H?lil?nj  Helgoland

Holstein  Holsteen  Holstiinj  Holsten

L?beck  L?beck  ?  Lyb?k

Nordfriesland  Noordfreesland  Nordfraschl?nj  Nordfrisland

Pellworm  Pellworm  P?lweerm  Pelvorm

Rendsburg  (Rensborg?)  ?  Rendsborg

Schleswig  Sleswig  Slaswik  Slesvig

S?rup  S?rup  ? S?rup

Stapelholm  Stapelholm  ?  Stabelholm

Sylt  Sylt  S?l'  Sild

T?nning  T?nning  Taning  T?nning

Westerland  Westerland  W??sterl?n  Vesterland
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/46d63e7c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 05:15:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:15:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2007.11.10 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.211555.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 09
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Dear Lowlanders,

This is to let you know that our Felix has refurbished his intro at our
Anniversary site (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/):

Afrikaans: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/felix.php
English: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/felix-en.php
German: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/felix-de.php

Thanks a lot, Felix, as always the mostly silent support that you represent,
and, seen from my personal angle, someone who truly "gets it."

Folks, we're getting closer to our 13th anniversary (mid-April to mid-May).
This is the time for you to change or add your intro and to send in your
translations and sound recordings, if you make them yourself or twist other
people's arms. This is your chance to put rarely mentioned language
varieties on the world map. Please send any material to me, and let me know
if you need any answers and/or help.

Please bear in mind that this is a rather successful site, our most popular
one to which quite a lot of educational sites are linking.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/0e96ef11/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 05:35:24 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:35:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.NOV.2007.213524.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 10
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.09 (02) [E]

Ben Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>  asked:

> What're ya gonna be doin' down in India?

I will be heading an NPO, started in 2005 but only now expanded enough
to require a director. Quoting from our home page, our "main aim is to
improve the educational achievement of Deaf children and adults in
India. We are establishing educational networks in order to run
continuing education classes, distance education programs, and
literacy improvement courses. All of our courses are taught using the
medium of sign language. Our ultimate goal is setting up full-fledged
tertiary education streams for deaf students. We are associated with a
number of national and international organizations and individuals who
are closely involved with the field of bilingual-bi cultural education
programs for the Deaf."  (Setting up things on the Indian side for the
start of the fiirst univeristy-level course in 2 years leading to a BA
degree in Sign Language Applied Linguistics (through UCLAN in England)
will be part of my duties as managing director.)

Anyone interested in more details can ask me off-list ... or can go to
the Ishara Foundation website for more details, including an
introduction in Indian Sign language by one of our founders and board
of directors (and a friend of mine), Sibaji Panda:
    http://www.ishara.org/

> What were you up to up in Japan?

How to answer? The short answer would be: teaching at university (by
preference, anything but English (most specifically  Russian); by
necessity/demand, mostly English ... hence my general joy at moving
on), but that would MISS ALL the important things. And the important
things are (in no particular order)
1) drinking Ebisu beer (a label produced by Sapporo beer company, and
named after the only indiginously Japanese of the Seven Gods of
Fortune ... indigenous also in the sense of his Ainu connections) [NB:
all my FREE beer, however, comes from a friend who works for for a
competing beer company, Suntory.]
2) using Japan as a base for LOTS of travel, especially to Asia (NB:
to SOME, uniniated, Japan IS a part of Asia ... to whom I respond:
Yeah, and England IS a part of Europe! ... In your dreams!!!)
3) eating zaru-soba (cold buckwheat noodles) with REAL (i.e. freshly
"ground", NOT out of a tube) wasabi  (see my comments some time ago
about the comparative virtues of the fresh vs tubed root)
4) doing sign language research, and being active in the local Deaf
community in a variety of ways
5) becoming ever more cynical about the state of the world (something
that perhaps comes naturally to many of us in  this day and age!)

> You haven't forgotten the good oal US of A have ya?

No, and every time I return to the US of A I remember many thing I had
tried so HARD to forget ...making me, thanks in part to the PATRIOT
Act (but actually more to the general environment that produced that
act), as Ron so aptly described me, an EX-pat(riot). [NB: exaccerabted
by the fact my name (or rather someone else with the SAME name) is on
the watch list. I feel like I did in highschool whenever I got that
OTHER "Michael Morgan"'s (MPM not MWM!) report card at Rantoul
Township High School ... yes, my mother knew the difference, but the
shock of seeing all those letters WAY down the alphabet was still
real!)

STILL, sometimes the longing to see family and friends gets me to go
through all that hastle.

[ASIDE: As of Nov 20th (the day AFTER I leave Japan), Japan will adopt
yet another western practice and start fingerprinting and photographic
ALL non Japanese at the airport ... though, as always, they will apply
the Japanese principle of "borrow and improve": unlike the US who
exempts non-citizen residents (Green-card holders, etc), Japan will
apply the new requirements to ALL foreigners INCLUDING permanent
residents (except for permanent-resident Koreans ... I guess in
unspoken acknowledgment that their Japanese citizenship was illegally
stripped from them by act of Diet in the late '50s.)

Anyway,  I will see all of you in India! (on the list, if not in person)

MWM || ??? || ???? || ????

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )

++++++++++++++++

??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071110/f778eda0/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 17:24:57 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:24:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.092457.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Sandy,

You're right about Daniel Cassidy being opinionated (to put it mildly).
I found out he hasn't been able (so far) to provide any sound scientific
evidence for his theory:

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/grantbarrett/

Cassidy is professor in "Irish Studies" at some university in
California. Maybe that's what "fooled" the New York Times?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

And to go along with Afrikaans sk?r, you failed to mention:
the Sotho-Tsawa languages:
both Sesotho and seTswana : sek?r? pl: dik?r?
Sepedi (Northern Sotho) : sek?r?  pl: dik?r?

the Nguni languages:
isiZulu : isikele pl: izikele
siSwati : sikelo  pl: tikelo
isiXhosa : isikere  pl : izikere (I have also run across the forms
isikela/izikela ... but i think those are NOt the current normative
forms)

and the other two Bantu languages of Suid Afrika:
Venda : tshigero  pl : zwigero
Tsona-Shangaan : xikero  pl : swikero

In all these cases the word, which has been borrowed from the
Afrikaans, has been nativized and put into the (phonetically)
appropriate noun class (7/8 in the traditional system). [As for the
basis of what is "phonetically appropriate", to use isiXhosa as a
case, the isi-/izi- class include, to quote Pahl, Ntusi and
Burns-Ncamashe's 1983 grammar:
"(d) Izibizo ezivela kumagama eelwimi zasemzini aqala ngo-s.
Imiz.: isitalato < straat
isitena < steen
isikolo < skool
isitofu < stoof"

For the benefit of those FEW Lowlands-List members whose isiXhosa is a
bit rusty, a failry loose English "translation" would be:
[The isi-/izi- noun class includes] "(d) foreign nouns beginning in "s-":
E.g.: isitalata < straat (street)
isiteena < steen (stone)
isikolo < skolo (school)
isitofu < stoof (foot-stove)"

I am sorry that I don't know what the non-Bantu, non-IE languages
(i.e. Khoi-San) have for this term, as my 2 months in ZA were focussed
in the NE (and so my knowledge of even isiXhosa is mostly thanks to
its linguistic proximity to siSwati and isiZulu).

This is similar to what we find happening in other Bantu languages
outside the Afrikaans realm. Thus, the most famous Swahili example is
kitabu 'book', borrowed from Arabic, which got put into the Swahili
ki-/vi- class  making it kitabu pl: vitabu. [NB Swahili, if memory
serves me, has lost the traditional class 7/8. Sorry, though i can't
swear by that, as an attempt to locate my references on comparative
Bantu nominal morphology failed. No doubt it is in limbo somewhere
between to-go-with and runner-up shelves!)]
--
MWM || ??? || ???? || ????

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )

++++++++++++++++

??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/bcb29ea2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 17:30:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:30:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.093053.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (08) [E/German]

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]
>
> > From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Language varieties
> >
> > Moin, Heiko!
<snip>
> As an aside, on a recent weekend in Jersey (not New Jersey!) I was a bit
> surprised at the way signage was handled. Street and road names were
> either in French or English, but not both. Occasionally a street would
> have a sign in both French and English - but only because the name of
> the street was completely different in French from in English, ie the
> signage wasn't a translation.
>
> It seems to me that streets were signed as whatever people actually
> called them, and this is normally either French or English, but not
> both?
>
> I only saw one example of signage in Jersey French, which was the
> "Welcome to Jersey" sign etched on the class door at the boat terminal
> in St Helier. There was no accompanying English or French.
>
> Unfortunately none of the Local Interest sections of Jersey bookshops
> seemed to have anything in or about Jersey French.

There's only one book I've seen about the Channel Islands' French; the
dialect
is Norman French (The Channel Islands being the only part of the Duchy of
Normandy still under the English Crown's control after the Hundred Years
War.), and the book lamented to some degree that it was not as widely spoken
as it used to be.  Sadly I don't have the book, and can't recall its name.
I'll try to dig it up.

FWIW ;)

Wesley Parish

--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

I have a Jersey French wren story translation someone made and someone else
sent me, but the translator doesn't respond when asked if we could display
it. How sad is *that*?

Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/f747a66c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 18:05:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:05:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.100555.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.10 (02) [E]

Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com> sked:
> Ok whoa! That was cool Mike! Was that Tok Pissin or Bicilama?

Neither actually, but rather Hawaiian Creole English (aka Pigin, aka
Da Kine) ... or rather My extremely rusty HCE.

Although born on the mainland to mainland parents (I mentioned my
almost-Apalachian mother), I actaully learned to talk (and to NOT wear
shoes) in Hawaii (as I mentioned, on the Pearl City side of the Oahu),
with HCE-speaking neighborhood kids. Much later, after many years o
the mainland, I met (in Nepal) and eventually married (in California)
my wife, who was born on Maui (but left at age 7 to spend the rest of
her childhood in Alaska where she was, being Japanese-American, often
mistaken for an "Eskimo", so she has no HCE infleunces other than some
HCE vocabulary items, which she long thought were Japanese, as her
grandmother spoke NO Standrad English, but only Japanese and HCE ...
and usually a 80:20 mix .., and her mother and eldest sister, both
long-time California residents, speak Standard English but with
noticable HCE accents), and we retunred to the Isles for a time where
our son (whose middle name is Makani "Big Wind") was born (almost on
Maui like his mom, but actually on Oahu thanks to a shift in the
approaching Typhoon -- hence his name).

While I never claim to be an HCE speaker (at least NOT since the age
of 4 or so), HCE is one of the many linguistic linputs into MY
language identity ... and one of which I am VERY proud!

MWM || ??? || ???? || ????

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )

++++++++++++++++

??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Howzit, Mike, brah, an mahalo!

I thought I'd casually mention -- and your mind might be inquiring enough to
want to know -- that I have long had fantasies about a Da Kine Wren -- let's
call him "Da Wren" or "Da Manu M?k?hikuhi" for now. Jalike?

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/ae26ebee/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 11 22:55:43 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:55:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.11 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.145543.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (10) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

The Morgan-Bloomgren exchange (see infra) served to remind me of many of the
reasons I have been a delighted and committed Lowlands-L member for some
years. It's because of folks like y'all. Your spirit of unconditional (or
perhaps just low-return) love of humanity, and your generosity of intellect
has been uplifting and refreshing. And that goes for all of  you.
Thanks for being there.

Arthur A. Jones

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/1bd4d55b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 01:12:54 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:12:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.11 (05) [E/LS/Danish/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.171254.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (08) [E/German]

Leve Lowlanners
> It was just a matter of civil servants in London ruling that if signs
> were to be changed to bilingual English and Welsh, then an application
> would have to be made for each sign individually. So Welsh language
> activists started doing exactly that. In the end it would seem that it
> was easier to just put up all new signs as bilingual than put up a new
> sign in English only to have to go back and change it after it was
> spotted by a Welsh speaker.
That is a good idea. Perhaps we should do the same here in Germany.

Hi Ron,
> Heiko, I have a possibly sensative question about the thing with the
Danish
> community. If you don't have the answer(s), perhaps you could ask Heinrich
> Thies.
Languages are always sensitive.
>
> I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area." Yes, the by far
> highest concentration of ethnic Danes of the state live in the north,
> namely in Schleswig, the closer to the border the higher the
concentration.
I was referring to the area that has a Danish minority.

> (Remember that, technically speaking, Schleswig-Holstein is Southern
> Jutland and that many Danes think of it that way, though
> *S?nderjylland/Synnejylland * "Southern Jutland" is now an administrative
> area within today's Denmark, and pretty much all Danes think of Schleswig
> on today's German side of the border as *S?nderslesig/Synneslesvig*
> "Southern Schleswig," as opposed to *Nordslesvig
> *"Northern Schleswig" on today's Danish side of the border.)

> As may be known to many of our Lowlanders, pretty much all of today's
> German state of Schleswig-Holstein was Danish territory for quite some
> time, all the way down to the northern bank of the Elbe Rivers. In fact,
> some communities that have meanwhile been integrated into the city state
> Hamburg (e.g. Altona) used to be under the Danish crown as well. For this
> reason, there are many place names all over the state whose names have
> Danish equivalents as well (even Hamburg = Hamborg, which was just outside
> Denmark then).

Well, the Wikipedia says in http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J?tland
that only the danish part of this peninsula is referred to as J?tland. I
have
only heard "Southern Jutland" with reference to Schlewig, not with reference
to Holstein. The english wikipedia sees things a little bit different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutland "Holstein has never been part of
Jutland
proper, but is geographically situated on the Jutland Peninsula. The
peninsula is also called the Cimbrian Peninsula, Jutland-Holstein or
Jutland-Schleswig-Holstein. "

Anyway, the old Sprachgrenze (language border) is " Eider ? Treene ?
Eckernf?rde." This had also been the political border for quite some time.
An
example is the border of the "Heiliges R?mische Reich Deutscher Nation" from
1648 as depicted in
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648.png
The language border changed over time and moved northwards. I once saw maps
about this, but I do not remember where.

To my knowledge Holstein has never been part of Denmark. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein
"It was from 1111?1474 a County of the Holy Roman Empire, although later
occupied by Denmark during the TBDL war in the early years of the 13th
century[clarify], and thereafter became an Imperial (reichsunmittelbar)
Duchy
until the dissolution of the Empire in 1806. In 1460 Holstein became
inherited, along with the Danish Duchy of Schleswig, by the King of Denmark,
who necessarily, and whose heirs, ruled the two territories as Dukes (and
not
as kings).
..
From 1815 to 1864 the Duchy of Holstein was part of the German
Confederation,
though still in personal union with Denmark (the King of Denmark being also
Duke of Holstein). "

That means the king of Denmark happened to be the Duke of Holstein and ruled
both his kingdom Denmark and his duchy Holstein in personal union.

The story then continued with
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch-D?nischer_Krieg

"Nach dem ersten Schleswig-Holsteinischen Krieg behielt die d?nische Krone
zwar die Hoheit ?ber Schleswig, Holstein und Lauenburg, verpflichtete sich
aber, die Herzogt?mer als selbst?ndige Einheiten innerhalb des Gesamtstaates
zu behandeln. Zudem sollte nach dem Londoner Protokoll von 1852 Schleswig
verfassungsm??ig nicht enger an D?nemark gebunden werden als Holstein und
Lauenburg.
Die d?nische Novemberverfassung von 1863 bezog jedoch Schleswig
vertragswidrig
mit in den d?nischen Kernstaat ein. Dies wurde aus d?nischer Sicht
notwendig,
um den Staat handlungsf?hig zu halten."

The attempt of Denmark to integrate Schleswig (!) completely into the Danish
state then led to the military intervention by Prussia and Austria that led
to German rule over Schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg.

> I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area," since this
sounds
> a bit like a "homeland" in the old South African context.
There may be better ways in English to express what I meant.

> While there are
> areal concentrations, I know that Danish Germans live all over the state,
> especially in the larger towns and cities and of course in and around the
> capital Kiel, since ethnic Danes participate in pretty much everything
like
> everyone else, and it's their state as well -- the *whole* state. This is
> similar to speakers of Low Saxons, while even within its "homeland"
> Northern Friesland the Frisian community is now sparse and mostly rural,
> and there are few actual communities of North Frisian speakers outside,
> with the exception of Kiel maybe.
Let us just have a look at an official danish site:
http://www.gkflensborg.um.dk/de/menu/Infos/Minderheit/Grenzziehung/
This comes from the Danish general consulate in Flensborg:

"Nach Beendigung des Krieges in 1864 mu?te D?nemark beim Frieden in Wien die
Herzogt?mer Schleswig, Holstein und Lauenburg an die deutschen Siegerm?chte
abtreten. W?hrend die beiden letztgenannten rein deutsch waren, war der
?berwiegende Teil der Bev?lkerung im n?rdlichen und mittleren Teil von
Schleswig d?nischgesinnt. "

So there is no historic Danish minority in Holstein, not even the Danes
claim
otherwise. Of course there are Danes who moved to other places. I knew a
girl
of our church some 20 years ago whose father was Danish, they were living in
Elmshorn (Hostein). But that does not lead to a "Danish minority" in
Elmshorn, at least not in the sense national minorities in the borderland
are
usually defined.

> Below is a list of color-coded examples.

> L?beck  L?beck  ?  Lyb?k
That one is nice. It does not come from -bek (Bach), but from a slavic name
"Liubice". But if the Danes like to write Lyb?k, they are free to do so, but
my guess is that they will never get it on the city road signs of L?beck as
it as never was an area with a Danish minority. It did not even belong to
the
duchy of Holstein as it was a "freie Reichsstadt" of the German Reich.

Kind regards,

Heiko

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Heiko!

Thanks for your response.

We may be splitting hairs here. My point is that with certain minorities
territorial allocation does not sit well with me. Like ethnic Germans in
Schleswig-Holstein, Danes live in both rural and urban settings and as such
they are spread out, albeit most concentrated near today's border.  Danish
is not classified as a "regional language," as far as I know.  Official
publications from Schleswig-Holstein on the state level include Danish
versions, but North Frisian ones only marginally (probably due to the small
number and regional confinement of its speakers).

True, Denmark treats the German minority similarly, confining its official
presence to Northern Schleswig. I know that German Danes have moved to other
parts as well and still speak German. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So for diplomatic reasons, the King of Denmark was officially the *Duke* of
Holstein, but he was the same person and was not a German citizen. Yes,
technically he ruled as a vassal of the German Realm ("som hertug af Holsten
var den danske konge vasal under det tyske rige"), but ...

I know that a few of my ancestors in Holstein were born Danish citizens.
Look at all the Danish and Danish-derived surnames in Holstein. Pick out the
history of various places now in and around Hamburg and find reference to
Danish rule. If you read Glikl Hameln's autobiography you get real-life
accounts of 17th- and 18th-century Hamburg Jews periodically seeking shelter
from pogroms in next-door Altona under the protection of the Danish crown,
and I have read historical accounts and stories in which citizens of
Ahrensburg (right outside Hamburg) had to travel to Copenhagen to present
petitions to the king. Some of the best historical records from and about
the area are now in Copenhagen archives.  If that is not a case of Danish
rule I don't know what is, though I'm using the word "rule" somewhat
loosely.

Altona:

Altona var indtil 1864 <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/1864> en af det danske
monarkis <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danske_Monarki> vigtigste havnebyer.
Monarkiets f?rste jernbane <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jernbane>, Altona-
Kiel <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel> (*Christian VIII. ?sters?
Jernbane<http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona-Kieler_Eisenbahn-Gesellschaft>
*), ?bnedes i 1844 <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/1844>. Tabet af Altona
n?dvendiggjorde bygningen af Esbjerg
Havn<http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esbjerg_Havn>.

[http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona]

Nach dem Aussterben der schauenburgischen Linie Pinneberg-Holstein (1640)
f?llt Altona an das Herzogtum
Holstein<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzogtum_Holstein>und damit an
den jeweiligen d?nischen K?nig. Dieser ist in Personalunion
K?nig von D?nemark und Herzog von Holstein und somit Lehnsnehmer des Kaisers
des Heiligen R?mischen Reiches Deutscher
Nation<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_Deutscher_Nation>.
Daher ist Altona zwar bis 1806 deutsch und bis 1864 holsteinisch, steht aber
unter d?nischer Verwaltung mit allen sich daraus ergebenden Angleichungen
z. B. des geltenden Rechts <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recht> und der
W?hrung <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4hrung>.

Am 23. August 1664 verleiht der d?nische K?nig Friedrich
III.<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_III._%28D%C3%A4nemark_und_Norwegen%29>Altona
die
Stadtrechte <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtrecht>; dieses
Privileg<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privileg>umfasst unter anderem
Zoll-, Stapel- und Gewerbefreiheiten sowie
Gerichtshoheit <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gericht>. 1683 wird eine
st?dtische Lateinschule gegr?ndet, die 1738 zum Gymnasium erweitert wird,
das unter dem Namen Christianeum
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianeum>heute noch besteht. Seit
Mitte des 18. Jahrhunderts werden hier auch
zahlreiche Sch?ler aus Altonas j?dischen Familien aufgenommen. Mit rund
12.000 Einwohnern 1710 und rund 24.000 Einwohnern 1803 ist Altona nach
Kopenhagen die zweitgr??te Stadt innerhalb des d?nischen Gesamtstaates, zu
dem neben dem K?nigreich D?nemark auch die Herzogt?mer Schleswig und
Holstein, das K?nigreich Norwegen sowie Island, Gr?nland und die
Far?er-Inseln geh?ren. Au?erhalb des K?nigreiches D?nemark ist Altona damit
sogar die gr??te Stadt im d?nischen Gesamtstaat.
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg-Altona]

In 1664 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1664> it [Altona] received city rights
from Danish King Frederik
III<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederik_III_of_Denmark>.
Until 1864 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1864> Altona was one of the Danish
monarchy's most important harbour towns. Denmark's first railroad from
Altona to Kiel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel>, the Christian
VIII<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_VIII_of_Denmark> Baltic
Sea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea> Rail Line (*Christian VIII.
?sters? Jernbane*), was opened in 1844.
In 1867 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1867> it became part of
Prussia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia>
.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona%2C_Hamburg]
Ahrensburg:

Mit der S?kularisation
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4kularisation>auf Grund der
Reformation <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation> wurde der K?nig von
D?nemark <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A4nemark> Eigent?mer des
Gebiets. Er belohnte seinen Feldherrn Daniel
Rantzau<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Rantzau>1567 mit der
Herrschaft ?ber diese D?rfer. Sein Bruder und Erbe Peter
Rantzau <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Rantzau> baute um 1595 den
Renaissance <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance>-Herrensitz in Form
einer Wasserburg <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Ahrensburg> und die
Schlosskirche, heute die Wahrzeichen der Stadt. Vorbildlich war die
Angliederung von "Gottesbuden" (Wohnungen f?r alte und mittellose Menschen)
an die Kirche.
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahrensburg]

Denmark aptly calls the historical periods of Danish "presence" in the
region *personalunion* (personal union).

So, I'm partly playing *dj?velens advokaten* on behalf of our Danish
neighbors and compatriots with whose history Schleswig-Holstein's history is
inextricably entwined and who have left noticeable layers of heritage
throughout the state. Had it not been for Austrian interference (yes!), we
might still be speaking about a part of Denmark (which would probably entail
extinction of Low Saxon and Frisian in those parts, since Denmark seems to
have a knack for that). In fact, Danish-ruled Northern Schleswig and
German-ruled Schleswig-Holstein are a type of overlap of Denmark and
Germany. Now that relations have improved and Europe is supposedly growing
together, I think it's time to celebrate this rather than to play intricate
diplomatic word games. It would be nice if especially Southern Jutish, Low
Saxon and North Frisian would be prominently featured as common heritage in
this rather than only Danish and German in the way of country-to-country
business as usual.

And *advokaten* still holds that from a geographical point of view Holstein
*is* a part of the Jutland Peninsula. Allens annere is diplomaatschen
T??nkraam. S?h so!

Of course this doesn't mean we aren't on the same page. We just turn the
pages somewhat differently. ;-)

Hold Dy styv (un hold eynluden un tweyluden uutenanner)! ;-)
*Reinhard/Ron*

***
"Livet skal forstaas bagl?ns, men leves forl?ns."
(Life must be understood backwards but must be lived forwards.)
                                     S?ren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813?1855)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/fdad6114/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 02:19:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:19:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.181948.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Dear Lowlanders,

I'd be grateful to you for some input regarding the following topic.

As we all know, English has two frequently used suffixes *-s* (/-z/):

   1. Plural marker: e.g., The Walton*s* have two son*s* and three
   daughter*s*.
   2. Genitive marker: e.g., The Walton*s'* (/-z-z/) children*'**s *names
   are somewhat odd, owing to Mr. Walton*'s *obsession with Shakespear*'s
   *plays.

However, there appears to be a third, albeit lesser-used one.

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as "Jakes." It was
quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression of
what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

* Question 1*: Is it confined to American English?

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, you hear this used mostly with women's names,
though I hear it used with men's names as well. This makes me wonder ...

*Question 2*: Is there a connotation of "cutesy" in it?

The general rule appears to be that the root must be a one-syllable
abbreviation, and certain phonological and semantic restrictions appear to
apply.

This suffix is occasionally used with terms of address rather than with
proper names; e.g., (honey >) "hons," (sweetie >) "sweets," (papa >) "pops"
(dad), (grandpapa > grandpa >) "gramps."

Those of you who watch the now syndicated US sitcom series "Friends" in the
original language may remember the somewhat odd character Phoebe being
addressed as "Phoebes" ([fi:bz]) by her friends. I personally know an Amy
who is addressed as "Ames" by her boyfriend. And there are other examples:

Examples of women's names (most seeming acceptable to me):
Als, Ames (Aims, Ayms), Auds, Babs (< Barbara), Beas, Becks, Bets (Betts),
Bobs, Cams (Kams), Cats (Kats), Chers, Cons, Debs, Evs, Gills (Jills),
Hales, Jacks, Jans, Jays, Jems, Jens, Joys, Judes, Kates (Cates), Kims
(Kyms), Kyles, Lees, Lens, Libs, Lous, Lyds, Lynns, Mats, Meens, Mels, Moes,
Molls, Nans, Nells, Nicks, Pams, Pats, Pauls, Pegs, Pens, Phils, Phoebes
(Phebes), Pipes, Prues, Raes, Rebes, Robs, Ryes, Sams, Shanes, Shawns
(Shauns), Shells, Sues, Sybs, Syds, Tabs, Tams, Tyes, Vies, Vivs, Wills,
Wins, Zoes

Examples of men's names (several seeming marginal to me for some reason):
Abes, Als, Arts, Bens, Berns, Bills, Bobs, Brades, Brads, Cals, Cams (Kams),
Cons, Dans, Daves, Dicks, Drews, Genes, Hales, Harvs, Herbs, Jacks, Jakes,
Jays, Jebs, Jims, Joes, Kevs, Kims, Kips, Lees, Lenns, Lous, Matts, Mels,
Micks, Milts, Moes (Mose, Moze), Nats, Nevs, Nicks, Pats, Petes, Phils,
Pipes, Rays (Raes), Reubes (Rubes), Ricks, Robs, Rods, Rons, Ryes, Sams,
Shells, Sids, Tads, Teds, Tyes, Vics (Vicks), Wills, Wins, Woods, Zacks
(Zaks), Zekes

The name Laz is supposed to come from Larry which comes from Lawrence.
Apparently, Laz is now seen as a separate name by some.

*Question 3*: Can this suffix be used with one-syllable names that are not
abbreviated?

Examples: *"Johns," *"Pauls," *"Lees," *"Eves," *"Brooks," *"Jeans" ... My
feeling is it can not.

Now, "my" Jake's legal name is Jake, not Jacob. However, I feel it was
subliminal association with Jacob that partly prompted me to say "Jakes," or
that made it seem possible.

*Question 4*: What might the origin of this suffix be?

*Question 5*: Does this suffix have any relatives in other languages?

Of course, it brings to mind *-s* in Latvian men's names (e.g., Filips,
Fritsis, Gabriels, Jazeps, Juris, Kristaps, Ludvigs, Mihails, Mikelis,
Pavils, Rihards, Toms, Vilhelms, Vilis). However, this is the equivalent of
Lithuanian *-as*, *-is* and *-us* (??uolas, Juozapas, Virtautas, Jurgis,
Herkus) which appears to be related to (though not derived from) Greek
*-os*and Latin
*-us*. I hardly think this could develop into a suffix that expresses
affection.

I would be interested in anything you have to say about this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/415a601d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 05:01:21 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:01:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.NOV.2007.210121.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

Hey Ron,
A good friend of mine tends/used to call me Dids/Didz but she spends a lot
of time on (English speaking) messageboards and mixes a lot of English slang
in her Dutch. Apart from her (and her sister?) I can't recall having found
the suffix in this meaning in Dutch though.

And of course my nickname fits the morphological conditions you put up for
this -s very well. With other monosyll. (Dutch) names it would sound quite
strange though: Jans?? (here usually affectionated jakke), berts?? etc are
not possible.
But as with Jakke, it is quite common in Dutch though to use diminutive
suffixes with names, and it's possible with nearly every name. So my guess
is that this -s has the same behaviour as diminutive names in Dutch (which
don't need to have a diminutive/affective connotation). (no meaning of
cutesy alts?)

And my latvian friends call me D?driks as well;) but that's just a
nominative -s

Browsing further in your list I recognise the name Babs < Barbara, I know a
girl called Babs but nobody sees it as a form for Barbara here anymore,
while f.ex. Jakke still bears the connection to people called Jan.
And paps and mams occur in Dutch as well, but sound quite 'children
language' + northern dutch to me (and they sound horrible as well!)

Apart from these I can't come up with any examples at this late time of the
night...

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks a lot, Diederik.

(I would have expected *Dieds.)

Interesting, this Northern Dutch *paps *and *mams*, though!

Note also British English "mumsy" for one's mothers. So there's that *-s*again.

And here's another one. What shall we call it? "Derisive affection marker"?

It uses the English suffix (combination) *-ster* once to derive a noun for
the habitual performer of an action; e.g., "webster," "songster," "gangster"
and "spinster," but also "youngster."

As a "derisive affection marker" it must be accompanied by the definite
article or a possessive. It doesn't seem to sound right in a large number of
cases, much depending on the name's sound.

The following examples could be talking about a third person or addressing
the person him- or herself.

   - "And who didn't turn off the coffee maker again? Could it be ... the
   Philster?"
   - "Isn't that typical of our Babster?"
   - "So and what's the Chuckster planning for the weekend?"
   - "Late?! Surely not the Suester!"

[By the way, this suffix, with the traditional, serious usage, exists in
Dutch as well, usually forming the feminine counterpart of masculine *-er*;
e.g., *schrijver* - *schrijster *'writer'. In Middle Saxon and North Frisian
it does not necessarily express the feminine; e.g. MS
*bedrygster*'deceiver', NF
*grewster* 'grave-digger', *w?wster *'weaver'.]

As many of you know, since he became governor of California Arnold
Schwarzenegger has been nicknamed "The Governator" (because of his role in
the movie "The Terminator" [which I like to refer to as "The
Exterminator"]). Twice now I have heard Californians call him "The
Terminatester."

These days some people use German-derived *-Meister* instead; e.g.,

   - "If it isn't the Mark-Meister (~ Markster)!"
   - "So have you mentioned it to the Tim-Meister (~ Timster) yet?"

And then there's the suffix *-o* that can be used with certain one-syllable
men's names (abbreviated or not); e.g., Jacko, Ronno, Phillo, Peto, Chucko,
Johnno, Jimbo (note the "b"). I have come across this one especially in
Britain and Australia and have a feeling it's pretty old.

More to think about.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071111/0b3f7ea5/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 08:19:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:19:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.11 (08) [E/Hawaii Creole]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.001931.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.11 (03) [E]

Aloha, braddahs an' teetas (and also any titas out there)

Worsay!?

Reinhard/Ron (or was it Ron/Reinhard ... I often confuse the two
personalities!) wrote:
> I thought I'd casually mention -- and your mind might be inquiring enough
to
> want to know -- that I have long had fantasies about a Da Kine Wren --
let's
> call him "Da Wren" or "Da Manu M?k?hikuhi" for now. Jalike?

Go fo brok, brah! (No ste all waha, eh!)

Lataz!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Mahaloz, bra.

Yu wen rait:

Go fo brok, brah! (No ste all waha, eh!)

Na. No kan, bradda. Chi! Wot yu tink? Ai oreddi mek plenni A.

Ai wen trai fo ask yu no laik mek da trensleshen. Yu kan mo betta, no? So
wot? Yu laik o wot? Chans um, eh!

Yu no laik, ke, wotevaz.

Shuuts den, bra. Letaz.

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:
(or was it Ron/Reinhard ... I often confuse the two
personalities!)
Da Kahuna tu. Hi oreddi wen giv yu an inoa `a`ala. Go luk, eh!
http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/9c571990/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 17:54:01 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:54:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.095401.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

R/R wrote:
> Of course, it brings to mind -s in Latvian men's names (e.g., Filips,
> Fritsis, Gabriels, Jazeps, Juris, Kristaps, Ludvigs, Mihails, Mikelis,
> Pavils, Rihards, Toms, Vilhelms, Vilis). However, this is the equivalent
of
> Lithuanian -as, -is and -us (??uolas, Juozapas, Virtautas, Jurgis, Herkus)
> which appears to be related to (though not derived from) Greek -os and
Latin
> -us. I hardly think this could develop into a suffix that expresses
> affection.

Yes, Latvian -s and Lithuanian -(V)s are simple the reflexes of the
Indo-European masculine singular nominative case ending. Both
langauges have a separate vocative ending (though NOT in the plural,
nor in the 2nd declension -- the most common feminine type). BUT in
modern converstaional usage the nominative is often found in place of
the vocative (OR, like Slavic Russian which long ago lost its vocative
case, in Latvian anyway, a NEW vocative, equal to the stem without ANY
ending, is found.)

Whether there has been enough Baltic language influence on (American)
English for this to be a plausible "source" of the English
affectionate diminutives or not is a real question though.

On a more speculative level, I would propose that we perhaps have here
a PLURAL, though this goes AGAINST what we usually see of the plural
being coopted into expressing a POLITE singular (tu vs vous, thou vs
you, ?? vs ??, etc). Perhaps the truncated stem (Bab < Barbara) was
seen as TOO familiar and so a POLITE plural ending was addedd (Bab+s >
Babs)? PURE specualtion on my part (and the only real-language
analogous example I have of a plural being used as an affectionate
dimiutive is RUSSIAN, where ALL male diminutives have a feminine
ending (viz my name below) ... which was in (proto)-Indo-European the
collective plural ending.

--
MWM || ??? || ???? || ????

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )

++++++++++++++++

??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????

----------

From: karlrein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E

It occurs to me that Pops --  one's father, or addressing an older man --
was common in New York City at least sixty years ago.  So I have always
associated 'Phoebs' <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_> in
Friends as a New York phenomenon, despite
Babs<?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>and the like.
But reading your discussion, it suddenly dawned on me that
there was Moms Mabley <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>, who
died years ago, already elderly.  For the younger readers,  may I explain
that she was a lovable nightclub entertainer known for her foul language.

Karl [Reinhardt]

From: R. F <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>. Hahn <
sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

[snip]

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as
"Jakes<?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>."
It was quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression
of what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

...Reinhard <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>/Ron

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

diederik has a long i, but in didi it's short (thus dids)
don't confuse it with the cartoon figure Deedee;) (dexter's lab)

----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
[...]
> In Middle Saxon and North Frisian
> it does not necessarily express the feminine; e.g.
> MS
> *bedrygster*'deceiver', NF
> *grewster* 'grave-digger', *w?wster *'weaver'.]
[...]
> Reinhard/Ron

Ron,

Traces of '...ster' not necessarily expressing the
feminine are still to be found in the North of the
Netherlands.
E.g. a 'Damster' is someone of Appingedam; but someone
from elsewhere in the Netherlands will think it is
about a woman of Appingedam.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

From wim verdoold wkv at home.nl zwolle city netherrlands

Hi,  about an s ending in names

Looking at my own name (willem)

  In Germanic times it was written willhelmuZ in west Germanic and
willhelmuR in north Germanic,  the name HelmR and HelmZ also existed,  here
in the east of the Nethrlands there are still first names like Helms and
Mans , the s in names like that could come from the old germaic Z ending  in
Helms ( Helmus) it does.

Hope this added something to the subject.

Wim [Verdoold]

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]
Rein schreef:

As we all know, English has two frequently used suffixes *-s* (/-z/):

  1. Plural marker: e.g., The Walton*s* have two son*s* and three
  daughter*s*.
  2. Genitive marker: e.g., The Walton*s'* (/-z-z/) children*'**s *names
  are somewhat odd, owing to Mr. Walton*'s *obsession with Shakespear*'s
  *plays.

However, there appears to be a third, albeit lesser-used one.

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as "Jakes." It was
quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression of
what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

I don't know much about English or American, but a kind of affectional S
is used in Dutch, too.

E.g. my wife Barbara is called "Babs" as well. Mamma and Pappa are
also "Mams" and "Paps".
And I once mentioned here before the Brabantish S with proper names etc.:

ik gao naor Omas  < Oma      =  I go to grantma
da is veur Wilmas < Wilma    =  that is for Wilma
die komt van Tonnies< Tonnie =  he/she 's coming from Tonnie

Groeten
Ingmars

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks a lot, guys.

This is getting interesting. One of them golden Lowlands moments? (As though
not every moment on LL-L is a golden moment, huh?)

OK. I'm beginning to wonder if this is an piece of Dutch heritage in
American English.

Ingmar, you gave three examples

ik gao naor Omas  < Oma      =  I go to grantma
da is veur Wilmas < Wilma    =  that is for Wilma
die komt van Tonnies< Tonnie =  he/she 's coming from Tonnie

If it weren't for the second one (provided that it really means "for Wilma"
rather than "for Wilma's place/family"), this *-s* could have been seen as a
genitive marker, as in English:

I'm going to Grandma's. (= Grandma's place)
He/she's coming from Tony's. (= Tony's place)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/076e78a6/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 17:55:51 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:55:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.095551.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (06) [E]

In message
<57c981290711101738h4ccf2688xca488ec00ec52a22 at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> (i.e Ruth/Caterina) writes
> Neurologist is sending me for tests in January,
>but highly doubts I have anything other than really deformed feet!
>(Never
>thought that would be a good thing, but it obviously can be.)

Good news indeed - I have my fingers crossed for you!

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/45cd7f3b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 18:29:58 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:29:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.12 (03) [E/Hawaii Creole]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.102958.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.11 (08) [E/Hawaii Creole]

> Da Kahuna tu. Hi oreddi wen giv yu an inoa `a`ala. Go luk, eh!
> http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm

Tanks, brah!  trow party?! ... 'ole leo ... 'cauz get nomo say in da
matter? Or cauz rait so seldom. Fack is, me all waha ... get plenty
talk, jes' no ackshun.

Da Big Kahuna wen rait:
> Yu wen rait:
>> Go fo brok, brah! ...
> Ai wen trai fo ask yu no laik mek da trensleshen.

Yeah, I wen savvy da pragmatickz. NO pass on AN' NO pass back! Ke. No
like be one nochanic. So like madah always se: I might could chrai.

> Yu kan mo betta, no? So
> wot? Yu laik o wot? Chans um, eh!

Mo betta? No chrai ho'omalimali me, brah ...

> Yu no laik, ke, wotevaz.

Ke. maybe dis ma kuleana. (Chrai also mek da kine JSL an' ISL Wren.)

> Shuuts den, bra. Letaz.

Yeah, lataz!

** KEY for the F.O.B.s (fresh-off-the-boat) and malihinis (newcomers)
... present and future:
bra = brah = braddah = friend, chap, mate, fellow, ...
chans um = go fo brok = give it a go, do ones best, give it all you've got
chrai = trai - try
da kine = (a/some) kinda (extremel versatile, but also somewhat vague
expression in HCE, very common therefore HCE is also sometimes
referred to as Da Kine)
fack - NOT to be confused with fock!!!
ho'omalimali = flatter
ke = okay
kuleana = responsibilty / duty but ALSO privilege
nochanic = someone who is always saying/thinking "I cannot"
savvy = undwratnd (very common  in many of the world's pidgins and
creoles ... with Romance roots ... perhasp one of the contributions --
along with Portugues Sweet Bread -- of the many Portuguese immigrants
to hawaii)
shuuts den = yeah then
lataz = letaz = see you / talk to you later (HCE often has plurals
where standard ENglish has singular ... though I DOUBT that this -s is
the source of the affectionate diminutive discussed in anothe htread
of this ML!)
trow party? = an enquiry as to whether there will be celebrations, but
ALSO a potentially sarcastic reply of indiference (approximating
American English "big whoop!")
waha = lazy, all talk and no action
wot = what; o wot = or don't you; or isn't it, etc (common HCE tag question)
wotevaz = watevahs = whatever, it doesn't matter,m I don't care (see
shuuts den for the use of HCE plurals)

--
MWM || ??? || ???? || ????

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )

++++++++++++++++

??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

An den?

K? den, br?. Ch?k mahaloz.

Mo betta? No chrai ho'omalimali me, brah ...

Wot? M??! Aznats!

Y? wen rait:

Da Big Kahuna wen rait:

Y? wen skr? ap egen. *Ai* wen rait dat, br?!

L?taz!

Reinhard/Ron

An den?: (< and then?) Hi! How are things?
Aznats!: (< as nuts) Crazy! No way!
ch?k: (< choke) loads of
mahaloz: (< Haw. *mahalo*) thanks
skr? ap: (< screw up) make a mistake
wen: (< went) past tense marker
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/5b45d095/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 18:37:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:37:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.12 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.103708.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.11 (05) [E/LS/Danish/German]

Leve Lowlanders,

I think I also have to make a contribution to this little discussion because
my mother's family is one of those families which remained loyal to Denmark
although they always lived in Holsten just south of Rendsborg. Ethnically
they didn't feel Danish but they neither felt German and that was what many
people actually felt, at least in this part of Holsten and after Prussia
simply made Holsten a Prussian province they realized that Prussian rule
might be even more intolerant than Danish rule and as such became a part of
the Danish minority. As a matter of fact, U. Lornsen's call for an uprise
against Danish rule was less a call for having Prussian-German rule instead
but much more a call for greater autonomy if not even independence of the
Dutchies of Slesvig and Holsten and that was what many people actually
supported. My great-great grandfather apparrantly hung a big banner over the
main road which passes through Brinjah (at the Ossenweg) which made a parody
of a Prussian song which read then "red-White-Black a my colours - I must be
a Prussian!" instead of "I want to be a Prussian". And I can only guess that
many, if not most locals supported this view, otherwise I don't think my
great-great-grandfather had made his opinion as public as that. How much
Danish the citizens in  the area south of Rendsborg actually felt is also
demonstrated by the Danish badges over several old houses in Hohenwestedt,
notably the church with a badge to Christian VII king of Denmark. The old
church-administration house has a badge to the honour of Frederik VI which
was was never removed, in fact it was neatly  renovated with the whole
building in the 1980s! In my opinion you simply cannot really divide into
Danish and German, neither in most parts of Sleswig-Holsten, nor in what is
now Danish Soenderjylland. Initially most people felt first of all as
Holsteners, Slesvigers, Dithmarscher, Frisians,...(you name it) and then as
Sleswig-Holsteners and finally as subjects to the Danish king. But suddenly
in the 19th century they were forced to decide whether they were Danish or
German which was an alien concept to them, some decided for Germany, others
for Denmark. Some people in Soenderjylland can clearly trace their family
back to traders from as far south as Westphalia, some families in Holsten,
in particular along the Ossenweg to herders from northern Jutland which
still might not make them necessarily feel German or Danish. Some traders in
the Duchy of Slesvig  were invited by the Danish king and as such always
remained loyal to Denmark although ethnically they were Saxons from
Westphalia or Hollanders.

The Sleswig-Holsten uprising was actually much more inspired by similar
events in Norway, Iceland and the Faroes and were calls for more democracy
and autonomy, less by events further south in what was to become Germany.
But they coincided and that changed the course of events dramatically with
mighty Prussia eventually swallowing the whole lot. To this day I find
enough people south of Rendsborg who feel themselves Danish although
ethnically they should be considered Saxon, the vote for SSW south of
Rendsborg is up 6-7% in some municipalities as e.g Nienborstel, my old
family home. Subsequently, anyone can become a part of the Danish minority
as anyone can become a part of the German minority in Soenderjylland because
ethnicallty you cannot really seperate the people. It is more a question of
loyality than of ethnicity. I find the idea of "German" anyway very
questionable and ambitious, northern Germany was once Saxon, an ethnical
independend group with its own language, royal dynasties and traditions
which became colonized from further south (Hohenzollern) and the Saxons in
Holsten were lucky enough to have had an alternative they could choose
before becoming "Germanized" (which is a silly term because the Danes are of
Germanic origin, too). I think the whole point of promoting Plattduetsch,
Low Saxon, Nedersaksisch or whatever you call it is also a case for
promoting the idea that the Saxons were an ethnical indifferent group,
different from German, Dutch or Danish (and taking in respect that some Low
Saxon speakers still live in Poland and Lithuania those are of course to be
included). But I don't want to make this a political question, too much
blood has been wasted by pointless ethnical conflicts, it is a cultural
question and nothing more. Nationalism is very dangerous, it is too often
exclusive and discriminating, even racist, a cultural movement is an open
house and that is what I have in mind and the bilingual place-names are a
little step towards this. I don't know anymore who said it but a famous
writer once declared that it is impossible to assume anyone's nationality
wherever, you have to ask the person him/herself to find out what they are
and Slesvig-Holsten (including Soenderjylland) proves the point of this to
this day.

The question whether Sleswig-Holsten is a part of Jutland or not is also
prove how ridiculous nationalism can be, if I study a European map it seems
obvious that a peninsula is taking shape about north-west of the bay of
Luebeck which is commonly called Jutland, what else do you want to call it
then? The peninsula is diveded by a national border, like Europe was divided
by the Iron curtain but it is a mistake to attach ethnicity to a
geographical term (although geographical terms often derive from ethnic
terms, such as Dumfries=the castles of Frisians, actually in Scotland). The
Iron Curtain didn't make Europe suddenly split into Europe and the rest? And
not all British are of Celtic origin as "British" would initially suggest!
It is about as silly as the Chinese government recently declared any Tibetan
loyal to the Dalai Lama (and as such a dangerous nationalist and terrorist)
who is not wearing imported Tiger-fur because the Dalai-Lama called on the
Tibetans to stop wearing them in order to stop trade of the fur and save the
last Tigers from extinction.

Groeten vun

Helge

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/e2f5f7df/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 18:39:46 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:39:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.103946.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>* *
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> This made me think about -s (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
> endearment."
>
> Question 1: Is it confined to American English?
>
> Unless I'm sorely mistaken, you hear this used mostly with women's
> names, though I hear it used with men's names as well. This makes me
> wonder ...
>
> Question 2: Is there a connotation of "cutesy" in it?

You may have noticed that I recently referred to Alexander Montgomery
(of "The Cherie and the Slae" fame) as "Sanders Montgomery". As well I
refer to him as "Sandy Montgomerie", but this is just me (I think).

In Scots, both "Sanders" and "Sandy" are short for "Alexander", and I've
often been called "Sanders" by Scots speakers, though only those of
close acquaintance (This is just an observation. Personally, I don't
mind either way). I don't think I've come across the form "Sander",
though. Why would the "s" be added at the end, since it doesn't occur in
"Alexander"?

King James VI, in one of his juvenile poems, actually refers to
Montgomerie in this way:

   Gif patient eire to something I maun say,
   Belovit Sandirs, maister of oure airt:
   [...]

maun: must

So the form "Sanders" is centuries old, but whether there's any
relationship to the modern usage, I have no idea.

I can't think of any other names that would be treated this way in
Scots.

Sanders
http://scotstext.org/

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/e29bfb19/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 23:31:04 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:31:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.153104.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

Dear Lowlanders:

Ron wrote: "This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker
of endearment."

This got me thinking about an affectionate nickname my great-grandmother
bestowed upon me. When I was a child she frequently called me "Dannikins,"
derived from Daniel, which is my middle name. My great-grandmother grew up
speaking a form of Wisconsin German. I interpret the morphology of the name
as being "Dan" plus "i/y"or "ik" or "ek" (diminutives) plus "kin"
(diminutive) plus the suffix "-s."

I also sense that it seems awkward with non-abbreviated names. My wife and I
(both Alaska born) get around this by adding an "-er (strongly rhotacized)
to my son's name. Thus, Max is frequently is called "Maxers" or even
"Maskers" within the family. The same suffix applies to my daughter's two
syllable name: Ivy is often called "Ivers."

Be well,

John Howland

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/a7b84492/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 12 23:34:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:34:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.12 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.153400.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2007.11.10 (06) [E]

From: "Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: CMT Syndrome

Dear All,

Nearly hot off the press: Neurologist is sending me for tests in January,
but highly doubts I have anything other than really deformed feet! (Never
thought that would be a good thing, but it obviously can be.) Says if I've
had the foot problem for years I would have other symptoms, too. Very
relieved and thankful for your support...

Ruth/ Caterina

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Members' news

Thanks a lot, Ruth! I was thinking of you ever since Mark gave us the news.

This is great, at least as far as an interim report is concerned. Keep that
up!

In the meantime, take lots of foot baths, then have Mark massage your poor,
little footsie, and you'll be good for hitting the dance floor and knocking
'em dead as usual, you belle of the ball, you.

Love and best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron

Dear Ron,

I'm not about to reply to such an X-rated email in public, but you can
expect a private post anon concerning footsies, belles, balls _and_ dancing.
Just wait.

No, seriously, thank you for your and everyone's good wishes. I think I'm
basically back to where I was before I saw the foot specialist- knowing that
something has to be done, but instead of being stressed being happy it's
just my feet! Reminds me of the story of too many animals in the house.

Love Ruth

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/04979fa3/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 04:43:12 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:43:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.204312.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (01) [E]

I'm not convinced this ?s is an American thing. Don't the British refer to
Prince William as Wills? I've never heard anyone in the US call a William
"Wills". I am familiar with Babs and Pops, though.

There's also the ?sy ending, as in Patsy (for Patricia) or Bugsy (I've never
been sure where "Bugsy" comes from though).

Also, Ron, I wouldn't necessarily call the ?ster or ?meister endings
"derisive".  They can also be affectionate.

There was a skit on Saturday Night Live featuring a recurring character who
referred to everybody in the office by adding various endings to their
names. It wasn't derisive, but the character was supposed to be annoying
because he was getting overly familiar with everyone. Someone would walk in,
and he'd greet them with something like, "It's Dave! Dave-meister! [pause]
The Davester! [pause] Coming to use the copier! [longer pause]
Dave-o-rama!..."

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (06) [E]

Ron wrote: "This made me think about -s (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

I think you're right and it is a way in which a name can be softened and
made more appealing. Certainly my mother called my sister Margaret "Babs"
whenever the mood was good or better - so not just a shortened version of
Barbara! 'Mags' is what my other sister tends to say in similar 'fond'
moments.

It is certainly gentler than the universal --zza that one meets nowadays

Shazza << Sharon

Gazza << Gary

Mazza (Martin? Matthew? even MIchael?) , Lazza ( Larry? any name beginning
with L? ) etc often shortened to Shaz / Gazz/ Mazz/ Lazz etc

Note that the names do not need a medial s/z to change

I must admit to finding the latter fairly grating because ugly-sounding.
Whereas the -s suffix sounds 'sweet'!

Not that it suits all names, eh Rons?

Ronnie it has to be!

best wishes from

Hezza ( how the French pronounce my name)

H ( pronounced 'aitch')

Rendall

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks, Kevs and ... Hea ... Heath... er ...

Indeed, Kevin. This *-s* must go back to British English. Heather's examples
above show that, as does your Wills.

(William Shakespeare called himself Will and seemed to have preferred others
calling him that. I wonder if he was already called Wills by friends and
relatives. I searched in records about his life and wills, and in all the
stuff Garry Wills wrote about Will. But ... zilch so far.)

I think that the *-sy* ending pay be proof. I assume it's this *-s* with an
added diminutive *-y* (~ *-ie*), such as in (mum >) "mumsy," (Patricia >)
"Patsy" and (Elizabeth >) "Betsy." This seems distinctly feminine to me. I
don't think I would consider calling a Patrick "Patsy" ... unless, of
course, he was a patsy.

Also, Ron, I wouldn't necessarily call the ?ster or ?meister endings
"derisive".  They can also be affectionate.

Oh, I agree. That's why I referred to it as "derisive affection marker." But
that doesn't sound to great. How do you make "affectionately teasing" sound
like a scientific term?

Hezza, Babs from Margaret? You kiddin' me? Are you sure this happened
outside your family as well?

Oh, and Kevin, that guy from Saturday Night Live is one of my characters at
work. ("The Chuckster making copies for the Lisa-rama!") He comes out when I
want to be more obnoxious than usual. Aren't you glad you don't have to
endure me in person, bradda?

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/7ca6e368/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 04:45:14 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:45:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.12 (09) [Hawaii Creole]
Message-ID: <MON.12.NOV.2007.204514.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 09
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.12 (03) [E/Hawaii Creole]

>  Y? wen rait:
> Da Big Kahuna wen rait:
> Y? wen skr? ap egen. Ai wen rait dat , br? !

Sorris, brah, no get all huhu. Get majorly faced ... agen!  Ai so
donchey, 'ass why. Jas tink him look skosh laik yu, la'dat. An' vice
versa. Da fam'ly rezemblanz maybe ... laik maybe calabalsh cuzinz? I
go spahk da pichaz hana hou ... leita, tumaro, bumbye; maybe  no mek A
nex' taim.

K-dens, pau fo now! Lataz ... Hawaiian time!


MWM

glossary:
'ass why = that is why
bumbye = later ... though never is also a possibility
calabash cuzinz = people who are not actual relatives but might as
well be (laik maybe ste friends from hanabata dayz!)
donchey = absent minded, spaced-out
get 8all) huhu = get mad
get faced = get proved wrong; get majorly faced = get proven wrong in a big
way
hana hou [from hawaiian] = one more time
Hawaaian time = same general idea as Asian time ... but maybe slower
K-dens = okay, then
la'dat = (or soemthing) like that
make A = embarrass oneself
pau = finished
skosh [from Japanese: ?? sukoshi] = a little bit
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071112/7239d72b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 16:18:39 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:18:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.NOV.2007.081839.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  13 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (08) [E]

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net >
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (01) [E]

I'm not convinced this ?s is an American thing. Don't the British refer to
Prince William as Wills? I've never heard anyone in the US call a William
"Wills". I am familiar with Babs and Pops, though.

And of course football (soccer to Americans) star David Beckham is usually
"Becks" to the media. The "-s" form is pretty common in England at least,
though there seems to be no rule as to how or when it seems "right". Soccer
star Wayne Rooney is "Roo", not "Roons" or "Waynes" for example.  I suppose
somebody just uses a form, and it sticks, or it doesn't.

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (08) [E]

Ron asked: Hezza, Babs from Margaret? You kiddin' me? Are you sure this
happened outside your family as well?

Well 'Polly' is always explained as a diminutive of Mary ( from Molly?) and
Peggy is also an affectionate / diminutive of Margaret. If you can get Betsy
from Elizabeth, I don't see why Margaret can't give you Babs.

Are we seeing connections here between M/P/B?  ... though this still leaves
Betsy unexplained.

I wonder whether the -ie/y came first as a diminutive  Susan > Susie
Ronald> Ronnie   Richard > Ritchie  Michael > Micky  Paul> Paulie   etc etc
- even Mummy> Mumsie - though thanks to Noel Streatfeild (sic) 's The Bell
Family of the 1950s , I cringe when I hear this and see it as the height of
affectation!

The -s is really intriguing because it works with some names and not with
others - at least to my ears.

Babs / Suz / Wills/ Mags sound OK to me

But Dicks / Pauls/ Anns/ Vals/ Johns/ Rons   just don't work

Dickie  Paulie  Annie  (Val is already an abbreviation) Johnnie /
Johnny/Jonny & Ronnie all do. But then so do Susie, Annie, Willy/Willie
Maggie/Maggy

What do other people think?

best wishes

Heather

(Rendall)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Heather, you wrote above:

Well 'Polly' is always explained as a diminutive of Mary ( from Molly?) and
Peggy is also an affectionate / diminutive of Margaret.

Hmm ... Good point. That *is* pretty weird, isn't it? Perhaps I should
encourage people to be even more inventive with my names ... as long as they
are nice of course.

And isn't there also something about John being Jack, as in John F. Kennedy?

And Dick from Richard is strange, possibly based on toddlers'
mispronunciation (Rick > Dick).

And in Spanish you get cases like Dolores > Lola > Lolita, Eduardo > Lalo >
Lalito, Francisca > Paca > Paquita, Francisco > Paco > Paquito, Ignacio >
Nacho > Nachito. Dutch has cases like Willem > Pim, Jacob > Coos (the -s
again!), Cornelius > Kees (again!), Gertruida > Truus (again! plus pre-shift
long vowel!), Wald... > Woud... ~ Wout...  > Wob > Wobbe.

Well, there's no telling with people and names. My father addressed pretty
much all men whose names he forgot with "Kuddel" (from Kurt, I believe). It
used to embarrass us kids no end.

If you can get Betsy from Elizabeth, I don't see why Margaret can't give you
Babs.

Now, that one I can relate to: Elizabeth > Beth > (*Bethsy >) Betsy (apart
from Betty and Liz > Lizzy). Wasn't the great Gloriana herself, Elizabeth I,
called Beth or Bet?

Some names get stretched pretty far. Well known in Low Saxon is Fiete from
Friedrich, originally Frederik which often became Fredi, as in the case of
two of my uncles. So, after Germanization, an official Friedrich (who became
Fritz in German) could still be addressed as Fredi (['fre:di]) in the North.
Similarly, someone officially named Heinrich could still be called Hinnerk
(from Low Saxon Hinrik, Hinrick, etc.). And, as I mentioned before, Karl
could be addressed as Kalla or Kaller.

Babs / Suz / Wills/ Mags sound OK to me

But Dicks / Pauls/ Anns/ Vals/ Johns/ Rons   just don't work

Dickie  Paulie  Annie  (Val is already an abbreviation) Johnnie /
Johnny/Jonny & Ronnie all do. But then so do Susie, Annie, Willy/Willie
Maggie/Maggy

I wonder if the general rule, apart from certain phonological restrictions,
is that -s is not to be added to full names.  The twist may well be that
certain abbreviated names came to be perceived as full names, such as Dick,
Ron, Don and Val. There are now many names that started as abbreviated
version and are now considered as (possible) full names, such as Barbra,
Barry, Betty, Bindy, Candy, Carrie, Dora, Jake, Sandra and Sandy.

I am still intrigued by use of the said -s in both English and Dutch. I
wonder if there is any connection and what that might be.

Any idea anyone?

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071113/f4a1f869/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 17:09:13 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:09:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.NOV.2007.090913.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  13 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: marshatrue at peoplepc.com
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

Ron, I suspect this "marker of endearment" stems from the nursery rhyme
"Itsy-Bitsy Spider" which mothers have been extending to their babies names
for eons (which came first, the baby-talk or the rhyme?).  It can have a
sarcastic connotation of cutsey, as in referring to a couple of people one
doesn't like as being "palsy-walsy" with each other but in general here in
the U.S. it's genuinely affectionate grown-up baby-talk to call Phoebe
"Phoebes."  The rest of the cast on "Friends" wouldn't have been caught dead
saying "Phoebey-Woebsey," but Phoebes is an acceptably adult variant.
You're right that it only works with some names, those which can be
abbreviated easily.  My name, Marsha, doesn't fit that mold, no matter how I
work it.  Yours does, however.....I can imagine a woman cooing "Rons" to
you.....but that gets into another subject entirely!

Marsha
/enjoying the conversation from the shadows of American pop culture

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Dear Lowlanders,

I'd be grateful to you for some input regarding the following topic.

As we all know, English has two frequently used suffixes *-s* (/-z/):

   1. Plural marker: e.g., The Walton* s* have two son*s* and three
   daughter*s*.
   2. Genitive marker: e.g., The Walton*s'* (/-z-z/) children*'**s *names
   are somewhat odd, owing to Mr. Walton*'s *obsession with Shakespear*'s
   *plays.

However, there appears to be a third, albeit lesser-used one.

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as "Jakes." It was
quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression of
what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

*Question 1*: Is it confined to American English?

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, you hear this used mostly with women's names,
though I hear it used with men's names as well. This makes me wonder ...

*Question 2*: Is there a connotation of "cutesy" in it?
 <snip>

*Question 4*: What might the origin of this suffix be?

------------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi, Marsha dearest!

What a treat seeing you venturing forth from the depth of Oregon's woods to
grace us with your illustrious presence ... and that just seconds after I
sent off the previous Morphology installment!

I have a hunch that the "Itsy-Bitsy Spider" was not the trend-setter, that
the -s device was already in place. Or? Well, people still say "itsy" and
"bitsy" or the combo in other contexts.

but Phoebes is an acceptably adult variant.

You are certainly right there. I think that Lisa Kudrow did a fine job in
her delivery and development of this off-beat character, a modern West Coast
offshoot of the Ashkenazi Vaudeville-derived tradition that has is the main
ancestor of the only American sitcoms worth watching in my opinion. (Jason
Alexander, Bea Arthur, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Debra Messing, Jerry Seinfeld,
Ben Stiller and Jerry Stiller are other such examples in the sitcom world).

I can imagine a woman cooing "Rons" to you.....but that gets into another
subject entirely!

Oh, you mean with a "Rrrrr..." and then a "...zzzz" like from Eartha Kitt?
Well, yes, that's an entirely different topic.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071113/ec0ae5c6/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 13 18:35:52 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:35:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.NOV.2007.103552.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  13 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk < heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (02) [E]

Ron or Ronnie or ( dare I say it) Ronsey-Wonsey started us off on the odd
use of -s in names



I have used the article below in training Foreign language Assistants for
years. It originally appeared in either the Times or the Telegraph and makes
me crease up every time I read it. I hope the List enjoys it too.

(c) MIles Kington ( who is a well known comic writer )

**

*Miles Kington      *

*A singular Curiosity of English*



As people leaving school have such a shaky grasp of English, I am starting
an occasional series on English Grammar. I would like to kick off with one
of the commonest grammatical dicta in English: that you form the plural of a
noun by adding's'.



Nothing could be further than the truth! In English any letter can be used
to form the plural. In fact 's' is more commonly used to form the *singular*.




Look at my opening paragraph. There are two words in the plural ? *people*and
*dicta* and neither ends in 's'. There is one noun ending in 's' ?
*series*; and it is singular.



And yet our children are taught that the plural is formed with 's'! A quick
tour of the alphabet will tell a different story.



*A** *  a plural formed by 'a' is normally literary or commercial e.g.
curricula, data, incunabula, media, strata.

* *

*B*   A plural mostly used in fish as in "The chubb are not biting today"
But the plural of 'yob' is 'mob', a rare example of the first letter
changing.



*C*   The plural of "A man waiting to be separated from his money" is
'public'



*D*   The plural of 'blind' is 'blind'. "In the country of the blind, the
one eyed man is king" The plural of John Pilger, Harold Pinter or John
Mortimer end in 'd' ? "We, the undersigned?."  The plural of 'churchmen' is
'synod' and of 'director' is 'board'

* *

*E*   The plural of 'cow' is 'cattle'.Committee, league, electorate all end
in 'e'.



*F*   "In the land of the deaf, the one-eared man is king"

* *

*G*   Everyone ends in 'g' according to a lawyer, as in "the foregoing"?.
Unless they end in 'd' ? "the aforementioned"



*H*   The plural of 'clergyman' is 'church' and of 'magistrate' 'bench'



*I*   Almost every plural in classical music ends in 'I', such as 'concerti'
'tutti' 'soli' 'celli'. The plural of 'critic' is 'castrati'. The plural of
'listener' is 'hoi polloi'

* *

*J*   This letter is used as a plural ending for foreigners in vast
quantity. In India a'raj', in Arabia a 'haj' etc



*K*   As you might expect, no plurals of cow end in 's' e.g. cattle, kine,
herd and, in 'k' bloodstock. Jesus often formed his plural in 'k' "The meek
shall inherit the earth" see also 'sick'

*
*

*L*    British Rail are a shining example of a plural in 'l'. It used to be
British Railways, but they saw the error of their ways and dropped the 's'
ending  cf British Telecom



*M*   Seraphim and Cherubim provide more Biblical backing here.



*N*   Perhaps the oldest and nicest plural in English, as in men, women,
oxen, brethren and Opposition.



*O*   There is only one plural in 'o' On the other hand it is all-inclusive
'ditto'



*P*   The plural of 'pop singer' is 'group'



*Q*   All right! I can't find a plural ending in 'q' ? but then I can't find
a singular either.



*R*   The plural of 'socialist' is 'Labour'

* *

*T*   A very popular political plural ending 't'. The plural of 'commissar'
is 'commissariat', of 'secretary' 'secretariat' etc Also 'government'
'Cabinet' 'management'

* *

*U*   Every Welsh plural seems to end in 'u', certainly none in 's'. Good
for them. Also the plural of 'gnu' is not 'gnus', as you might be led to
believe but 'gnu'. This is to avoid jokes like "No gnus are good gnus"



*V*   The plural of  cross-reference is 'qqv'

* *

*W*   'Few' is the small plural of 'one'



*X** *  A popular plural for many a county-dweller, as in Middlesex, Sussex,
Wessex, Essex. So we say " Essex are champions again" not "Essex is champion
again"



*Y*   Ditto for the country-dweller. The plural of German is 'Germany' and
so on. The plural of 'song' , oddly, is 'medley' if pop and 'lieder' if
classical.

* *

*Z** *  The plural of ounce is 'oz'



It only remains to stress that 's' is a singular ending in 'trousers'
'scissors' 'pants' 'jeans'. A 'spectacle' is all you can see, but
'spectacles' are one small thing on your nose.

Having an 's' on the end is such a sign of the singular that it debars many
a word from even having a plural ? 'quietus' 'nous' 'chaos' 'hiatus'.



As a final clincher, look at any English verb. "He works" "They work" Which
is plural? Which has the's' ending?



Brilliant!

Have fun

Heather
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071113/50f0e270/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 14 15:07:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:07:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.NOV.2007.070748.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (06) [E]

 Beste John (Howland),

you wrote:

> This got me thinking about an affectionate nickname my great-grandmother
bestowed upon me. When I was a child she frequently called
> me "Dannikins," derived from Daniel, which is my middle name.
I guess this to be a kind of 'double diminutive': the *_-kin_* probably is
derived from Western Germanic '-ken' (related to German '-chen'), like in
the famous Belgian 'Manneken Pis'= 'peeing little man', and additional the
formerly discussed '-s'.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071114/67e4a13e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 14 19:58:54 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:58:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.NOV.2007.115854.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 012
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (01) [E]

jonny meibohm wrote:

John (Howland) wrote:

> This got me thinking about an affectionate nickname my great-grandmother
bestowed upon me. When I was a child she frequently called
> me "Dannikins," derived from Daniel, which is my middle name.
I guess this to be a kind of 'double diminutive': the *_-kin_* probably is
derived from Western Germanic '-ken' (related to German '-chen'), like in
the famous Belgian 'Manneken Pis'= 'peeing little man', and additional the
formerly discussed '-s'.

In the Hamaland Low Saxon of my hometown Winterswyk (NL) it's also:
menneken <= diminutive of man, h?ndeken <= dim. of hund (dog), etc.

But I suspect that in "Dannikins" it may rather be a diminutive of Dani,
not of Dan.

Ingmar

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
Subject: Morphology

Dutch has cases like Willem > Pim, Jacob > Coos (the -s
again!), Cornelius > Kees (again!), Gertruida > Truus (again! plus pre-
shift long vowel!), Wald... > Woud... ~ Wout...  > Wob > Wobbe.

Hi Ron,
I think Dutch Coos/Koos [ko:s] is from Kobus/Cobus ["ko:b at s] from Jacobus
[ja"ko:b at s], rather than from Jacob ["ja:kOp]; and Kees [ke:s] from Knelis
["kne:l at s] from Cornelis [kOr"ne:l at s].
As are Dieks from Drikus from Henricus, Teus from Theunis from Anthonius,
Thijs from Matthijs from Matthe?s, Bertus from Albertus, Jans from Jannes
from Johannes etc. So in those cases, final -s/-is/-es/-us (the latter
three all pronounced alike, with schwa) is from the Latin or Latin-like
official first name. Maybe a female name like Geertruida was "Latinized"
falsely as "Gertrudis" [GEr"tryd at s], hence Truus [trys].

Ingmar

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (01) [E]

Re: "s" after a name. I need to hear from people from (Dutch) Brabant or
Limburg. Somewhere in the far back lacunae of my mind I hear somebody from
that area say: "Ons Moeders". If that is true, might this be a case-ending?
Jacqueline
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071114/8e99d646/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 15 00:23:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:23:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.NOV.2007.162308.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]

 I'm not convinced this ?s is an American thing. Don't the British refer to
Prince William as Wills? I've never heard anyone in the US call a William
"Wills".

With certain nicknames and pet names, the s is common in the US. For the
longest time of my childhood, my third cousin, who was known as Aunt Gail,
would call me Binners. It sounds weird to write it that way now, but that's
exactly how she said it. The [E]/[I] (X-Sampa) are just because she says the
lax E that way with everybody. The phrase ten tins is homophonous to her.
Anyway, she would ALWAYS call me Binners from Benners. I can't explain the
-er either unless it's another sort of diminutivizing morpheme or someting.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks, Ben, Binners, Binster, Binnerama!

Hey, how about this for a highfaluting technical term for this particular
morpheme -s: "cutesificator", the act of using it being "cutesification"?

The verb "cutesify" has the main stress on the first syllable,
"cutesification" on the fourth, and "cutesificator" on the the second.
Everyone like? Should be sent straight to the *OED* people.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071114/9fd3415e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 15 18:22:23 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:22:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.102223.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]

thought Elizabeth I was affectionately referred to as Bess. The British Long
Land Pattern musket was commonly referred to as Brown Bess (one theory is
that this was derived from the German phrase 'braun buss' meaning 'brown
gun').

And if you think English names get stretched when diminutivized, until they
are nearly unrecognizable, just look at what Russians do.  They even make
diminutives of the dimunitives! Aleksandr>Aleksasha>Sasha>Sashka>Sashen'ka
or Aleksandr>Alekshura> Shura>Shurka>Shuren'ka.

Kevin "Don't you dare call me Kevs" Caldwell
----------

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.14 (03) [E]

Hi Ron,

Why not cutify / cutification / cutificator rather than
cutesify/cutesification/cutesificator?
The longer and more complex a lexical string is, the less it is going to be
used.

Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser

>The verb "cutesify" has the main stress on the first syllable,
"cutesification" on the fourth, and "cutesificator" on the the second.
Everyone like? Should be sent straight to the *OED* people.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Kevin, I think you're right about Bessy. It's interesting, too: supposedly
Beth > Beths > Bess > Bessy.

Else, I was just kidding about those terms. Sorry I didn't make that
clearer.

Seriously, though, if there isn't a fancy-shmancy term for "endearing" in
linguistics (and I'm not aware of any), I would suggest something like
"affectative" with subcategories like "diminutive affectative" (or
"affectative diminutive"), "jocular affectative."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/96cfedc1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 15 18:24:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:24:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.15 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.102455.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ted <tedshore at sympatico.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (06) [D/E]

It would be wonderful to get an english translation of this response re:
Shore/Schore/Sjhorre.
 Thanks,

Ted *[Shore]*

Lowlands-L List wrote:

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.09 (04) [E]

 Beste allen,
Zo'n klip, een "onderzeewaterrots", noemen wij te Oostende: e bl?nde sjh?r.
Een arduinen tegelvloer is in het West-Vlaams: e sjhorre.
De bloem uit het Zwin (oude zeeboezem die vroeger van Brugge tot bij Knokke
liep) heet lamsoor; in ons dialect heet die bloem "sjhorreblomme" of
"zwieneblomme".
Het Nederlands schoor is ook een steunbalk, in ons dialect "sjhoerienge".
Doet mij hieraan denken: schouders (shoulders) steunen toch ook; daar zou
wel eens een verband met "schoren kunnen zijn. Schouders zijn bij ons
trouwens: sjhoeres!
Toetnoasteki,
 Roland Desnerck
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/a9d2815d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 15 18:28:43 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:28:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.102843.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use"

Dear Lowlanners,

yesterday evening I experienced a proof for the fact how important and
helpful it can be to speak a regional dialect- in this case *my* Low Saxon.

Late afternoon I went into my hunting district to look for some wild geese
for Christmas, accompanied of course by my dog. Due to the fact that she is
a young and not yet well trained 'Uutbund' ('*Outbounder*'; paragon??) she
got lost in the dark, chivying any hare or roe deer.

I drove around with my car for a good hour without finding any track. At
last I saw lights of an automobile near the dike, at the end of my district.
I stopped right after this vehicle and saw a shepherd looking into his
corral where he had fenced in his sheep.
He came towards me at once and asked me in an aggressive voice if I did miss
any hunting dog. I answered in an affirmative- instinctively using Low
Saxon.
The good man showed me any black 'pack' sitting trembling in the edge, right
within the electric fence- my missed dog which was unable to jump over the
fence in the dark. I fear it was a bad but perhaps educative torture for
it...
The stockman still was a bit upset, because he feared for the integrity of
his sheep, but impressed by my native tongue he calmed down and even helped
me to lift the poor thing over the fence.

Though obviously born in the region he didn't speak LS himself, but I guess
that if I had talked to him in Standard German the situation could have
escalated. So my native tongue showed him that I was one of *"us"* and
not one of those people we call *"Stadtfrack"* (literally: 'city
swallowtail', perhaps to translate as 'green wellie')- that ones without any
knowledge about rural matters.

What at the end became a friendly conversation about hunting, sheep and dogs
otherwise could have turned into any bad animosity.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/8e4cb4cd/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 01:14:36 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:14:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.171436.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology"

Beste Ron(neman) *s*,

You wrote:
> Seriously, though, if there isn't a fancy-shmancy term for "endearing"
> in linguistics (and I'm not aware of any), I would suggest something
> like "affectative" with subcategories like "diminutive affectative"
> (or "affectative diminutive"), "jocular affectative."

In Dutch, we call this a "koosnaam(pje)" or "troetelnaam".

Why not a "pet name"?

The term "petting" itself may not be appropriate though I guess :-D ...

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

------------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]

 Dear Kevin,

you wrote:

The British Long Land Pattern musket was commonly referred to as Brown Bess
(one theory is that this was derived from the German phrase 'braun buss'
meaning 'brown gun').

I guess your information is from the English wikipedia- but I fear that's
wrong. There are, for my knowledge, no German phrases like 'braun buss' or
'brawn buss'- the only correct German word here just is 'braun'. Perhaps the
authors of that article mixed it up with the famous 'Browning'-guns, which
indeeed are very famous in Germany.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

------------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Salew, Lewkster!

> In Dutch, we call this a "koosnaam(pje)" or "troetelnaam".

It's *Kosename *in German. I can't think of a Low Saxon equivalent. Anyone?

> Why not a "pet name"?

That's not "fancy-shmancy" linguistic, is it? It's supposed to sound
"educated" so ordinary people don't know what mundane thing you're talking
about.  ;-)

> Beste Ron(neman) *s*,

That's kind of nice in that it sounds rather familiar, something we would
say in Northern Germany. We used to call and sometimes still do call my
(much younger) brother (Michael ['miCa?El]) "Michimann" (['miCiman]). You
could add this "-mann" to shortened forms of most men's names if you feel so
inclined (Fietemann, Kallermann, Hansemann,  Fredimann, Nikomann, Paulemann,
Franzmann,* Wallimann, Rolimann, Lukemann, etc.).

Now you just need to add the said "s" (Ronnemans) and it sounds like a Dutch
or Belgian surname.

In actual fact, I just did a quick search and found Ronnemans as a Dutch
surname as well as a pet name!

Groetjes,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/ea59b039/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 01:16:03 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:16:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.NOV.2007.171603.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (03) [E]

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use"

Dear Lowlanners,

yesterday evening I experienced a proof for the fact how important and
helpful it can be to speak a regional dialect- in this case *my* Low Saxon.

.......

What at the end became a friendly conversation about hunting, sheep and dogs
otherwise could have turned into any bad animosity.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

*And we thought we had a North-South divide in England!  Having been
carefully studying German, I'll obviously have to give the North a miss!

Paul Finlow-Bates

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071115/c74a303d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 17:30:15 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:30:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.093015.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (03) [E]

Hoi alltouhoop,

Thank you for a lovely story Jonny!
In a way it reminds me of the story of my first visit to a rural post office
in Quebec Province, Canada:

My truckdriver friend, a Mennonite Plautsnakker, warned me that the rural
'Qu?b?coise' will refuse to speak to us in English. So we decided
beforehand to talk to each other in Afrikaans and in Plautdietsch in case
this should happen.

Well, the good old lady greeted us in French, asked where we were from and
grumbled about the rain ruining her raspberries. I asked her for stamps and
she went on refusing to understand me. So then we started talking in our
mother tongues. And she understood the dilemma and said
in good English, 'Oh, you don't speak French?' and sold me a few stamps.

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (05) [E]

Dear Paul,

I have to admit, I don't really understand your comment there at the end of
Jonny's little ancdote. Do you refer to hunting, sheep and dogs? I am myself
a strict vegetarian but I am fully aware that this is something I can afford
these days because of food imports which haven't been there before. My
forefathers 100 years ago had to utilize everything carefully which their
little farm offered in order to survive, and that, of course,  included
slaughtering animals. But they did this carefully, not wastefully, like it
is done today! I remember headlines from London-based newspapers about
blood-thirsty Faroe-Islanders because they hunt about 2000 pilot-whales per
year. They have hunted them for hundreds of years in the same number and
pilot-whales do not belong to the threatened species, the little
Faroe-population is not responsible for the possible extinction of whales!
If then, it is general over-fishing in the Norfth Atlantic and there you can
actually include the Faroes among all others, e.g. the UK. And bloodthirsty?
What did the same authors think is going on in Britain's slaughterhouses?
What makes whales more precious than cows and and pigs? At least, the Faroes
kill them in the open, that is more honest and everyone can see what is
going on, it is not hidden behind the walls of a slaughterhouse. If Jonny
tells us a story about hunting, sheep and dogs, that is perefctly alright
and authentic to me, I trust Jonny that he is not doing it excessively! And
I also experience the same that speaking the local dialect helps acceptence
from the locals and why not? A Londoner would expect that a person who comes
to live in his town learns the English language in a way that he/she
understands it, what is normal and perfectly alright for a Londoner is then
suddenly chauvinism if the same demands come from a Low Saxon or, let's say
a Geordie or Scotsman? I don't see the difference. But perhaps I
misunderstood what you wrote Paul, if so , then please let me know!

Groeten

Helge
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/aa0a7e9c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 18:45:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:45:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.104533.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (04) [E]

Jonny Meibohm schreef:

I guess your information is from the English wikipedia- but I fear that's
wrong. There are, for my knowledge, no German phrases like 'braun buss' or
'brawn buss'- the only correct German word here just is 'braun'. Perhaps
the authors of that article mixed it up with the famous 'Browning'-guns,
which indeeed are very famous in Germany.

I know that in Dutch, a "bus" [b2s], which normally means a box, can
mean "gun" too, as in "donderbus" = blunderbuss. "Buks" [b2ks] is a rifle,
but the -ks in this word says it's probably a loan word, maybe from High
German or Frisian or English? Anyway, I think that this English "buss" may
be rather from Dutch than from German. Or maybe from Low Saxon, if that
has something like "b?ss" as well?

Ingmar

Rein schreef:

That's kind of nice in that it sounds rather familiar, something we would
say in Northern Germany. We used to call and sometimes still do call my
(much younger) brother (Michael ['miCa?El]) "Michimann" (['miCiman]).

Rein, was Michael really pronounced ["miCa?El], as you wrote about your
brother's name, or ["mixa?El] with [x] instead of [C] before "a". I'd
expect the latter but maybe it was a regional prono, or derived from
["miCi] ?

Groetz
Ingmar

----------

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, well there you have it; Joker meets Na?vet? :-)

I am the last to dispute the many possible ways words
are formed although I did realize after sending off
the note that cutefy is more correct than cutify.

So where does the word cute come from?

Another question about the Elizabeth>Beth/Betsy/Bessy:
Are certain language groups more inclined to shorten the front
end of the name [Eliza/Elsie/Elsje/Elschen /Elske/Els] or the middle
part [Liza/Lisa/Liz] and other groups the end syllables?

Elsie Zinsser

*Subject:*LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]
Kevin, I think you're right about Bessy. It's interesting, too: supposedly
Beth > Beths > Bess > Bessy.

Else, I was just kidding about those terms. Sorry I didn't make that
clearer.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Ingmar (and how, pray, do I cutesify *your* name -- Mars, the Ingster?), you
wrote:

Rein, was Michael really pronounced ["miCa?El], as you wrote about your
brother's name, or ["mixa?El] with [x] instead of [C] before "a". I'd
expect the latter but maybe it was a regional prono, or derived from
["miCi] ?

It was and still is pronounced ["miCa?El] (or ["miCa?el], the [C] being a
sound as in German *ich* and as the first sound in "human" in many English
dialects, folks). This is how it's pronounced in Standard German (unless
it's an English name, and if it's a Dutch or Hebrew name among those that
are in the know). I believe there are dialectical differences in this
especially in the extreme south of the German language region.

The phoneme /x/ rarely occurs between a front and back vowel (in this order)
and where it does it's in loanwords and names, I think. The phonological
rule is that it is the preceding vowel that ultimately determines the
pronunciation of the /x/, as also in Richard ["rICart] ~ ["riCart] and *
mechanisch* [mE"Ca:nIS]. This rule applies in Low Saxon of Germany as well.

By the way, the traditional Low Saxon equivalent of Michael is Michel
[mICl]. This is also the nickname of Hamburg's landmark: the copper-plated
spire of Sankt Michaelis (St. Michael) church. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Michaelis_%28Hamburg%29 -- The church
burned down several times and was bombed as well, its present design being a
magnificent example of a northern transition from baroque to
neo-classicistic. Napoleon's occupation force turned it into horse stables
as a symbol of French opinion about Protestantism. It was its interior were
I spent the evening of 9/11 when a baroque concert was adapted and dedicated
to the victims and at the end you heard bells ring from various churches --
a very moving experience.)

Dag, Elsie!

I'll answer your question about "cute" under "Etymology".

Another question about the Elizabeth>Beth/Betsy/Bessy:
Are certain language groups more inclined to shorten the front
end of the name [Eliza/Elsie/Elsje/Elschen
/Elske/Els] or the middle
part [Liza/Lisa/Liz] and other groups the end syllables?

In Low Saxon of Germany and in German, it's both the first and middle parts.


Low Saxon: Liesbeth > Else*, Elsi, Elli, Elsje, Elke*, Lisa, Liese, Lies,
Liesel

Else and Elke have become proper names in their own right.

Elsie, since you are one of the veterans and a well-known and well-respected
mainstay of Lowlands-L you ought to get one of those "The ..." names. But
that might end up being The Elster, and *Elster* is German for 'magpie'. Not
suitable! (Not only are they thievish, but they like to attack people when
they nest, as I have experienced many times). If we went to the original
Elizabeth, we might end up with The Lister. Hmm...

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right. Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/4aa4069f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 19:52:18 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:52:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.115218.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:

Elsie asked under "Morphology":

So where does the word cute come from?

It comes from "acute" (< Latin *acut-*), originally meaning "sharp (at the
end/angle)", later expanding semantically to "abrupt" and "dramatic" and
"dire", as in "an acute (~ sharp) increase", "an acute shortage". This
developed to "sharp" with regard to "wit", appearing in literature in the
early part of the 18th century. In this sense it is preserved in expressions
such as "a cute remark" or "You think you're so cute, don't you?"

In colloquial American English, the semantics of this expanded to include
"attractive", possibly via "admirably quick-/keen-witted". This appeared in
literature in the early part of the 19th century. This sense predominates
now. Not too long ago it was limited to the sense of "sweet" or "precious",
especially of small or young creatures (including children) and female
humans. In the meantime, it has come to include the sense of "sexually
attractive" with reference to both genders.

Via literature and especially the via entertainment media, it has been
spreading to other English dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/542d3746/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 20:40:32 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:40:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.124032.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> Salew, Lewkster!
>
> > In Dutch, we call this a "koosnaam(pje)" or "troetelnaam".
>
> It's Kosename in German. I can't think of a Low Saxon equivalent.
> Anyone?
>
> > Why not a "pet name"?
>
> That's not "fancy-shmancy" linguistic, is it? It's supposed to sound
> "educated" so ordinary people don't know what mundane thing you're
> talking about.  ;-)

Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
won't do!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Sandy:

Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
won't do!

Right you are. Let's see ... something along the lines of "onomatopoeia" ...

Noun: metharmchariterpnia or metharmchariterpnosis
Verb: metharmchariterpnotize

   - ??????- (*metharm-*): change (into), make a change
   - ?????????- (*charit?rpn*-): delightful, charming, enchanting

Obscure and esoteric enough a mouthful for yer?

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/cb97b7bf/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 23:07:51 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:07:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.150751.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:

Elsie asked under "Morphology":

 So where does the word cute come from?

It comes from "acute" (< Latin *acut-*), originally meaning "sharp (at the
end/angle)", later expanding semantically to "abrupt" and "dramatic" and
"dire", as in "an acute (~ sharp) increase", "an acute shortage". This
developed to "sharp" with regard to "wit", appearing in literature in the
early part of the 18th century. In this sense it is preserved in expressions
such as "a cute remark" or "You think you're so cute, don't you?"

In colloquial American English, the semantics of this expanded to include
"attractive", possibly via "admirably quick-/keen-witted". This appeared in
literature in the early part of the 19th century. This sense predominates
now. Not too long ago it was limited to the sense of "sweet" or "precious",
especially of small or young creatures (including children) and female
humans. In the meantime, it has come to include the sense of "sexually
attractive" with reference to both genders.

Via literature and especially the via entertainment media, it has been
spreading to other English dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I remember reading about sled dogs in Alaska, and the writer commenting how
native people liked to cross-breed their animals with wolves every few
generations.  The explanation, which confused her at first, was that it made
them "more cute". That was the last word she would have applied to working
Alaskan dogs!  Then she realised they meant "acute" as in sharper.  A case
of meanings going full circle!

Paul Finlow-Bates

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/a45d6ec3/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 23:55:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:55:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.16 (07) [E/LS/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.155535.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (06)
>
> Beste Mike,
>
> Du schreyvst:
>
> > HURRAY!!!
>
> Perhaps you didn't realize what this action means.
>
> According to the list of place names Heiko had sent there are about 50
> villages to re-name (why not more?). That makes 100 plates which have
> to be demounted, to be labeled and enameled newly and then to be
> re-mounted again. According to our local 'Stra?enmeisterei' (road
> maintenance staff) it makes about 3,000 EURO per each- in summary
> 300,000 EURO. And that for just the doubtful change of one letter?!
> Couldn't this money be spend for better destinations?
>
> What the heck is the difference between e.g. 'L?tjensee' and
> 'L?ttensee'? Ridiculous, isn't it? "Eine echte deutsche Amtsposse (a
> 'bureaucratic coup de farce')- Schilda (pun intended) l?sst gr??en!"
>
> After generations of foreign geometers, half-analphabetical
> 'Amtsschreibern' (communal clerks) now we meet the generation of
> non-native people to arrogate themselves, as a sovereign act of
> the provincial government ('fastleggen'), to fog continuously grown
> structures.
>
> And how should it be run in Northern Frisia? As far as I know some
> villages there have, besides their official German name, a Danish, a
> North Frisian and a Low Saxon one. New Babylon!
>
> And- as Ron mentioned if I understand him correctly- there should be
> really existing, still used Low Saxon names. If not, why to invent
> them? For what reason if the people, the inhabitants themselves don't
> use or even never have heard them? Just to bedevil the tourists ;-)?
>
> I cannot imagine at all that this kind of an administrative act should
> be useful for the sake of LS.
>
> Allerbest!
>
> Jonny Meibohm
>

> From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net
> <mailto:Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]
>
> Liebe Freunde zweisprachiger Ortstafeln!
> Dear friends of bilingual topographic names!
>
> Habt ihr bei den Bem?hungen um zweisprachige Ortstafeln nicht manchmal
> Angst davor, unfreiwillig zur Minderheit im eigenen Land zu werden?
> Die meisten Ortsnamen und sonstigen topographischen Namen in
> Norddeutschland sind doch gemischt hoch- und niederdeutsch, man sollte
> sich da nichts vormachen. Und so schlecht ist das doch nicht, ganz im
> Gegenteil. F?r mich sind sie ohnehin eher nieder- als hochdeutsch.
> Beispielsweise verwendet man in den offiziellen Ortsnamen dieses
> Kreises zwar offensichtlich einheitlich -dorf statt -d?rp,
> andererseits -bek statt -bach, "-wohld" statt "-wald", "-hoop" statt
> "-haufen", "-have" statt "hafen", "L?tje-" statt "Klein-" u.?.
>
> Wenn ich mir die Liste
>
> http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html
>
> genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest denkbar, dass als
> Gegenreaktion rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden, wie zb. Bad
> Altenlohe, Barssiedel, Bruch, Brunsbach (Braunbach), Gr?nwald,
> Heidekampf, Heilshaufen, Jersbach, Lasbach, Kleinsee, M?nchhagen,
> Neuwald, Oststeinbach, Reinbach, Siech, Zangstadt, Tremssiedel, Witzhafen.
>
> The topograghic names in this part((Kreis [=district] Stormarn) and
> also in other parts  of Northern Germany are actually partly High
> German, partly Low German/Saxon. For example they use HG "-dorf"
> instead of "-d?rp" on the other hand LG/LS "-bek" instead of "bach".
>
> The consequent divide of High- and Low-German/Saxon names could result
> in a involuntarily linguistic and ethnic separation and lead the
> declared Low-German/Saxon into a minority status in their own land!
>
> Examples:
>
> official name: Ammersbek (allegedly HG, in fact LG/LS!)
> proposed LS: Ammersbeek (only a orthographic adjustment)
> "real" HG and so a possible backlash: Ammersbach
>
> official: Bad Oldesloe (again: this is rather LG/LS than High German!)
> LS proposal: Bad Oschloe
> HG backlash: Bad Altenlohe
>
> In a HG reaction of purism also "-b?ttel" consequently would be
> replaced by something like "-siedel" (you discussed these words
> before), "-wohld" by "-wald", "-have" by "-hafen"
> (Witzhave/Witzhafen), "Braak" would be "Bruch", "Heilshoop" -
> "Heilshaufen", "M?nkhagen" - "M?nchhagen", "Tangstedt" - "Zangstadt"
> etc (see above).
>
> Hence the mixed Low- /High-German names are not that bad, methinks.
>
> Regards
> Karl-Heinz
>
Dat deit mi d?chtig argern, wenn ik so'n Schiet to lesen krieg. Jonny un
Karl-Heinz, wat ji dor schreven hebbt, dat is Schei?e (Schiet is veel to
nett). Deit mi leed, wenn ik dat so seggen mutt.

Wat is passeert?
En poor L??d hebbt sik de M?h maakt un hebbt de plattd??tschen Naams vun
de ??rd in'n Kreis Stormarn vullst?nnig tohoopsammelt. V?rdem kunnst
disse Naams narms finnen.
Wor?m hebbt se dat daan?
As V?rarbeit, dat dat lichter vun'e Hand geiht, wenn se sik f?r
plattd??tsche Naams op Oortsschiller insetten doot.

Dor is gornix 'fastleggt' worrn, denn de L??d, de dat sammelt hebbt, de
h??rt to de Fehrs-Gill un to'n Sleswigsch-Holsteenschen Heimatbund. De
s?nd nich vun Staat un Obrigkeit, dat s?nd j?stso'n L??d as wi, de en
beten vun jemeer Freetiet hergeven doot un sik ut Freid un 'Leevd to de
Spraak' mit dat Plattd??tsche befaten doot. J?st as bi di, leve Jonny,
is dat jemeer Mudderspraak. Un wenn bi jo ok blot en Funken vun "assume
good faith" v?rhannen is, denn k??nt ji doch woll kuum dor an denken,
dat disse L??d sik de Naams utdenken doot!?
Disse L??d hebbt j?stso as ji Fr?nnen un Bekannte, hebbt Kontakt to de
Minschen. De leevt in kene Fantasiewelt. In all de 109 D?rper, de in de
List opd?kern doot, dor gifft dat noch L??d, de Platt as Mudderspraak
snacken doot, dor k??nt ji vun utgahn. Un de L??d vun Fehrs-Gill un
Sleswigsch-Holsteenschen Heimatbund hebbt sik de M?h maakt, hebbt in all
disse 109 D?rper anropen oder Breev schreven, oder wat weet ik, se hebbt
mit de L??d snackt, wat bruukt ji op Platt f?r en Naam f?r joon D?rp, wo
deet ji dat schrieven un so wieder. Dat is en Barg Arbeit. Disse Arbeit
hebbt sik de L??d maakt. 109 ??rd. Un dor hebbt se denn de List vun
maakt. Wo argdenkern mutt een wesen, dat dor Kritik afgeven warrt?
Good, Heiko hett dat Woort 'fastleggt' en beten unv?rsichtig bruukt. He
harr man beter 'sammelt' seggt. Aver dor bruukst doch nich so'n Fatt vun
apen maken, oder? Jonny, mit dien utverschaamt aggressive W??r hest du
Reinhard un sogor Yasuji Waki in't feerne Japan gl?ven laten, dat dor
Schiet maakt warrt mit de Naams in Stormarn.
'Fastleggt' hebbt se de Naams tominnst sowied, dat se sik op een
Schrievwies fastleggt hebbt. Wenn wi hier vun Schrievwies snackt, denn
hett dat nich mit Gewalt un Anpassen an een Norm to doon, dat heet man
blot, dat nich dat ene D?rp Noordwoold heten deit un dat Naverd?rp
S??dwohld un dat dr?dde Westwold. Dat is allens, wat se dor an disse
Naams villicht an ?nnert hebbt. Ans is allens 'Natur'.
Un wat Karl-Heinz schrifft, kunn allens ok ut'n Mund vun en ganz
engsteernten Hoochd??tschen-un-ans-nix kamen. En Woort oder Naam is nich
Deel vun en Spraak na Luudform, en Woort oder Naam is Deel vun en Spraak
na Gebruuk. Wenn ik op Hoochd??tsch 'Browser' seggen do, denn is dat
keen engelsch Woort, denn is dat en hoochd??tsch Woort, dat ut dat
Engelsche ?vernahmen is.
 > Wenn ich mir die Liste [..] genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest
denkbar, dass als Gegenreaktion rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden
N?!
T?delkraam dat. L?tjensee is hoochd??tsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn vun
af. Dat de Naam ut dat Plattd??tsche stammt ?nnert dor nix an. Un wenn
de Oort nu op Platt h?digendaags L?ttensee heet, denn schall disse Naam
?nnerd?kert warrn, denn he is ja man blot een Bookstaven wied weg vun
dat Hoochd??tsche?
not distinct enough to coexist, oder wat?

Gah mi dor vun af.

Marcus Buck
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/97fe3a5a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 16 23:48:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:48:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language used" 2007.11.16 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.154800.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (01) [E]

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (05) [E]

>Dear Paul,

>I have to admit, I don't really understand your comment there at the end of
>Jonny's little ancdote.

Hi Helge,

Nothing to do with hunting! My comment was based on Johnny's suggestion that
if he'd used Standard German, he would have been met with an angry
reaction.  I only speak Standard German, so I assume I would get the same
bad reaction in the North. That's why I said I'd give the North a miss.  ( I
also speak some Afrikaans and a bit of Dutch but I don't suppose they'd help
much).  What I find even more surprising is that other Lowlanders seem to
regard this anti-German feeling as a good thing, to be encouraged.

Going in the other direction, I certainly met with no hostility in Austria
because I can't speak the Tyrolean of the Zillertal; they just spoke
standard German to me.

> A Londoner would expect that a person who comes to live in his town learns
>the English language in a way that he/she understands it, what is normal
and >perfectly alright for a Londoner is then suddenly chauvinism if the
same >demands come from a Low Saxon or, let's say a Geordie or Scotsman? I
don't >see the difference.

In England or Scotland, this is definitely not the case.  People here don't
like outsiders trying to speak the local dialect, they assume you are making
fun their speech.  They expect Standard English, even if spoken in the
visitor's own accent.  Geordies outside the Northeast tend to say "go"
rather than "gan", "our" rather than "wor", "can't" rather than "canna" but
they still have Northumberland accents.

If an outsider lives in an area long enough to naturally acquire some of the
local speech pattern, that's fine, but trying to "speak native" will win you
few friends anywhere in Britain.

Cheers

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Language use

Hi, Paul!

Obviously I can't speak for Jonny, but I can tell you that I didn't get your
meaning right away either.

The way I understood Jonny's point was that the use of Low Saxon introduced
a more familial tone that diffused a volatile situation. The guy was not
pleased, but Jonny's demeanor, accentuated by his use of local lingo, took
the sting out of it.

I am not saying that there isn't a north-south divide. There is or at least
used to be (that is fundamentally of religious origin, and I bear personal
witness). However, I don't think Jonny's story was really about that. I
think it was about Standard German as a "neutral" lingua franca that tends
to maintain a certain distance between strangers by default. In part this is
because it requires you to use polite forms. In rural areas, use of the
standard form tends to be associated with city folk and Germany "out there,"
as opposed to people within the familial environment of the village. So this
could very well be the nearest city, not necessarily a city in the south.
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the guy could tell by Jonny's accent that he
was a North German. However, Jonny, by using the local lingo, even though
the guy couldn't speak it himself, signaled that he lived in or came from
the very area.

So what we seem to be dealing with here is a code choice for the purpose of
symbolically setting a cultural and social tone. ("I'm not one of those city
snobs that exploit our area for occasional hunting adventures and due to
ignorance and incompetence wreak havoc on locals' lives and livelihood.")
So, if it was about stereotyping and prejudices, it probably was a
country-versus-city thing rather than a north-versus-south thing.

As you may have noticed on occasion, people in rural Northern Germany tend
to (mistakenly) believe that proficiency in Low Saxon is exclusively rural,
that this is one of the things that differentiate them from city dwellers. I
believe that this is one of the reasons why some of them are surprised by
city dwellers' use and proficiency of the language and why they like to
dismiss it as unauthentic and plain wrong, especially when different and new
expressions are used. Thereby they seem to be declaring urban use of the
language invalid, this being an attempt to neutralize what they perceive as
being a threat (= change).

That's was my take on it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/19d769a8/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 01:45:41 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:45:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.174541.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (01) [E]

 Hoi alltouhoop,

Thank you for a lovely story Jonny!
In a way it reminds me of the story of my first visit to a rural post office
in Quebec Province, Canada:

My truckdriver friend, a Mennonite Plautsnakker, warned me that the rural
'Qu?b?coise' will refuse to speak to us in English. So we decided
beforehand to
talk to each other in Afrikaans and in Plautdietsch in case this should
happen.

Well, the good old lady greeted us in French, asked where we were from and
grumbled about the rain ruining her raspberries. I asked her for stamps and
she went on refusing to understand me. So then we started talking in our
mother tongues. And she understood the dilemma and said
in good English, 'Oh,
you don't speak French?' and sold me a few stamps.

You go Elsie! I don't understand why people have to be like that and act
like they are monolinguals when they ARE NOT!
Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/9dec4fa0/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 02:30:41 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:30:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.NOV.2007.183041.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 09
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (04) [E]

Sandy Fleming wrote:

Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
won't do!
...

Well, the Reinster said "cutesification", with an S. I'd say this had a
reason, because it was about the S as a special suffix here. Am I right?
So, I think "cutesifaction suffix" is a perfectly fit term for this
special affectionate S!

Ingmar

---------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (04) [E]

typo, I mean cutesification, not cutesifaction of course!

> Sandy Fleming wrote:
>
> Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
> won't do!
> ...
>
> Well, the Reinster said "cutesification", with an S. I'd say this had a
> reason, because it was about the S as a special suffix here. Am I right?
> So, I think "cutesifaction suffix" is a perfectly fit term for this
> special affectionate S!
>
> Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

See, folks? *Some*one got it.

You give people cutesifaction by cutesifying names, just as by satisfying
people (by means of satisfication, of course ;-) ) you give them
satisfaction. So there!

Sandy and I wrote:

Then it would have to be made up from Greek roots, Ron, "cutification"
won't do!

Right you are. Let's see ... something along the lines of "onomatopoeia" ...


Noun: metharmchariterpnia or metharmchariterpnosis
Verb: metharmchariterpnotize

   - ??????- (*metharm-*): change (into), make a change
   - ?????????- (*charit?rpn*-): delightful, charming, enchanting

At second thought, "onomatopoeia" is really an anomaly, and the ones Sandy
forced me to create sound like diseases or last-ditch treatments mental
health specialists subject folks to, don't they? Linguistic terms are
usually Latin-derived while most health-care terms are Greek-derived. So,
how about the following Latin-derived proposals?

Noun: blandification
Verb: blandify

   - *bland-* >
   - *blandire* 'to flatter', 'to caress', 'to coax'
   - *blanditia* 'flattery', 'allurement', 'attraction', 'charm'

Noun: delenition
Verb: deleniate

   - *delen-* >
   - *delenire *'to soften down', 'to soothe', 'to charm'
   - *delenimentum* 'that which softens, soothes or charms'

Noun: delicification
Verb: delicify

   - *delic-** >
   - *deliciae* 'allurements', 'attraction', 'charms', delights',
   'fancies'
   - *delicia*, *delicius *'darling', 'sweetheart'

* This is found in words like "delicate" and "delicious", also to the
archaic words "delice" (= "delight"), "delicies" ("delights", 'joys"),
"delicities" ("delights", 'joys") and "to deliciate" ("to delight", "to
enjoy oneself"). "Delight" looks like it too, but the *OED* claims it comes
from a misspelled rendition of Middle English *delit* from Old French *delit
*, from Latin *deliter*. But isn't that related also?

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071116/9e3e5dc7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:42:38 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:42:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.17 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.124238.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  17 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

 Another question about the Elizabeth>Beth/Betsy/Bessy:
Are certain language groups more inclined to shorten the front
end of the name [Eliza/Elsie/Elsje/Elschen
Elsie,

I was shocked to find out that Queen Elizabeth of England is not known as
Reina Elizabet here but Isabel! That sound so weird to me to think that the
brits are ruled by Ferdinand's wife? I see how it came down phonologically
from the Hebrew, but it's still strange.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Ben!

Names of famous people are very often translated in English too; e.g., ...

   - Edward of Portugal < (Portuguese) *Duarte de Portugal*
   - Ferdinand V of Aragon < (Castilian) *Fernando V de Arag?n*,
   (Aragonese) *Ferrando II d'Arag?n*, (Catalan) *Ferran II d'Arag?*
   - Henry the Navigator < (Portuguese) *Infante Dom Henrique*, *Infante
   de Sagres*, *Henrique o **Navegador*
   - Isabella I of Castile < (Castilian) *Isabel I de Castilla*
   - Nicholas II of Russia < (Russian) *??????? II ?????????????
   ?????????????* (*Nikolaj II Aleksandrovi? Vserossiskij*)
   - Pippin the Short < (French) *P?pin le Bref*
   - Pope John Paul II < (Latin) *Papa Ioannes Paulus Secundus*
   - Suleiman the Magnificent < (Ottoman Turkish) ?????? ???????? (*Sulaym?n
   al-Q?n?n?*), (Turkish) *Kanuni Sultan S?leyman*
   - Wenceslaus (~ Wenceslas) IV < (Czech) *V?clav IV.*
   - William the Conqueror, William the Bastard < (Norman) *Gll?ome l?
   Counq??reus*, *Gll?ome l? **B?tard*, (French) *Guillaume le Conqu?rant
   *, *Guillaume le B?tard*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/82b6a23b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:47:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:47:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.11.17 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.124707.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Terminology - Events

 I happen to be in East-Hartford Connecticut in the week of December 10.
I see in the event calendar of a school in Manchester (Conn.) on December 10
they have:
*Cow Raffle Dress Down Day*
Can somebody explain what this means?
Thanks,
Regards,
Roger

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/83f126a4/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:50:11 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:50:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.17 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.125011.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

Hi all,

Thanks, Ron, for explaining the LS troetelnaampie-forms deriving from
Elizabeth.

Jikes, veteran does sound somewhat old, doesn't it? As it is, some of my
colleagues do call me 'Gogo' which means grandma in Zulu.

You may call me the Lyster, a kind of thrush, for whom I have immense
gratitude for providing calming calls after 4 am when fear chased the sleep
away. But it is the same little bugger who messes up my neatly raked bundles
of leaves, then pitches its head to a side to listen out for a bug's
frightened shuffle.

Of course this has nothing to do with morphology.

Cheerio,

Elsie Zinsser

>In Low Saxon of Germany and in German, it's both the first and middle
parts.
Low Saxon: Liesbeth > Else*, Elsi, Elli, Elsje, Elke*, Lisa, Liese, Lies,
Liesel
Else and Elke have become proper names in their own right.

Elsie, since you are one of the veterans and a well-known and well-respected
mainstay of Lowlands-L you ought to get one of those "The ..." names. But
that might end up being The Elster, and Elster is German for 'magpie'. Not
suitable! (Not only are they thievish, but they like to attack people when
they nest, as I have experienced many times). If we went to the original
Elizabeth, we might end up with The Lister. Hmm...

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right. Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/8c8885f2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:54:18 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:54:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.17 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.125418.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (09) [E]

Ron contributed: * This is found in words like "delicate" and "delicious",
also to the archaic words "delice" (= "delight"), "delicies" ("delights",
'joys"), "delicities" ("delights", 'joys") and "to deliciate" ("to delight",
"to enjoy oneself"). "Delight" looks like it too, but the *OED* claims it
comes from a misspelled rendition of Middle English *delit* from Old French
*delit*, from Latin *deliter*. But isn't that related also?
Alright Ron. That than can have the special meaning of the "delight" ????
 some people feel when getting up in the morning. Jacqueline

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (05) [E]

Hi all,

Thanks, Ron, for explaining the origin of 'cute'.

Paul, I have acquired an 'Alaskan husky' last year, and apart from the fact
that he is amazingly bright, he actually looks much more like a coyote than
like a husky. He believes 'working breed' means catching a dove every
morning and devouring feathers and all!

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.16 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:

Elsie asked under "Morphology":

So where does the word cute come from?

It comes from "acute" (< Latin acut-), originally meaning "sharp (at the
end/angle)", later expanding semantically to "abrupt" and "dramatic" and
"dire", as in "an acute (~ sharp) increase", "an acute shortage". This
developed to "sharp" with regard to "wit", appearing in literature in the
early part of the 18th century. In this sense it is preserved in expressions
such as "a cute remark" or "You think you're so cute, don't you?"

In colloquial American English, the semantics of this expanded to include
"attractive", possibly via "admirably quick-/keen-witted". This appeared in
literature in the early part of the 19th century. This sense predominates
now. Not too long ago it was limited to the sense of "sweet" or "precious",
especially of small or young creatures (including children) and female
humans. In the meantime, it has come to include the sense of "sexually
attractive" with reference to both genders.

Via literature and especially the via entertainment media, it has been
spreading to other English dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I remember reading about sled dogs in Alaska, and the writer commenting how
native people liked to cross-breed their animals with wolves every few
generations.  The explanation, which confused her at first, was that it made
them "more cute". That was the last word she would have applied to working
Alaskan dogs!  Then she realised they meant "acute" as in sharper.  A case
of meanings going full circle!

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/4b67f06a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 20:57:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:57:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.17 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.125735.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language used" 2007.11.16 (06) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Language use

Hi, Paul!

Obviously I can't speak for Jonny, but I can tell you that I didn't get your
meaning right away either.

.......

That's was my take on it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

No, it looks like I got the wrong idea!

Cheers

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language used" 2007.11.16 (06) [E]

 Thanks, Paul and Ron,

for having cleared up some missunderstandings.

Paul wrote:
>  What I find even more surprising is that other Lowlanders seem to regard
this anti-German feeling as a good thing, to be encouraged.

I don't think it's too bad to be a little bit anti-German from time to time-
it keeps us to be in practice ;-)!
This slight missinterpretation reminds me at a story often told by my
father. In the early fifties from time to time he used to visit a man with
the illustrious name 'Onno Menno Onnen' in Eastern Frisia. He always got
invited for a cup of the famous Frisian tea (the latter described by a
certain R.F.H. here: http://www.lowlands-l.net/travels/teetied.php ) with
the words "Kom' 'rin, kom' 'rin! Loot 's Tey drinken un praten! Wat givvt'
Neyet in Duitsland?" ("Come in for a cup of tea and a little talk. What's
the news in Germany?"[Watch the Frisian/Dutch words *'praten'* and *
'Duitsland'*...]).- Perhaps I should mention that Eastern Frisia always
belonged to the 'Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations' and already since
A.D. 1744 had been under Prussian reign before A.D. 1871 there was a united
Germany established.
Similar things could have happened in all the German provinces situated at
the boarders of the main land, as history shows in the case of the north of
Slesvig-Holstein, the Saarland, Bavaria and even East Prussia whose
inhabitants always made a difference between their province and the 'Reich'.
But- going far off-topic now- I think there are only very few countries in
Europe one could call 'homogeneous'; perhaps Denmark or Poland coming close
to this attribute?

Ron schreyv:

> The way I understood Jonny's point was that the use of Low Saxon
introduced a more familial tone that diffused a volatile situation. The guy
> was not pleased, but Jonny's demeanor, accentuated by his use of local
lingo, took the sting out of it.

You hit it! Thanks!

> As you may have noticed on occasion, people in rural Northern Germany tend
to (mistakenly) believe that proficiency in Low Saxon is
> exclusively rural, that this is one of the things that differentiate them
from city dwellers. I believe that this is one of the reasons why some of
> them are surprised by city dwellers' use and proficiency of the language
and why they like to dismiss it as unauthentic and plain wrong,
> especially when different and new expressions are used. Thereby they seem
to be declaring urban use of the language invalid, this being
> an attempt to neutralize what they perceive as being a threat (= change).

I'd rather think everyone is welcomed here to speak Low Saxon his own way-
as long as he doesn't intend to kill our local dialect ;-)! Perhaps you
should take a look here
http://www.stern.de/lifestyle/reise/598060.html?q=Amazonas%20hinterm%20Deich
to learn
something more about the hillbilly - clich? of our region ;-).

Allerbest and nice weekend!

Jonny Meibohm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/d9444d0e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 17 21:07:13 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:07:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.17 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.NOV.2007.130713.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.16 (07) [E/LS/German]

Marcus Buck schrieb

> ...so'n Schiet ...
> ...dat is Schei?e...
> ...(Schiet is veel to nett).
>...Schiet maakt ...
Da hat er wohl recht und am Ende wohl auch hier, wo er behauptet,
> ...L?tjensee is hoochd??tsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn vun af.

> Wenn ik op Hoochd??tsch 'Browser' seggen do, denn is dat
> keen engelsch Woort,

Weiter:
>  Heiko hett dat Woort 'fastleggt' en beten unv?rsichtig bruukt
Alles meine Schuld...

> Un wat Karl-Heinz schrifft, kunn allens ok ut'n Mund vun en ganz
> engsteernten Hoochd??tschen-un-ans-nix kamen.
...und die von Karl-Heinz, wenn die groteske L?cherlichkeit solcher Projekte
offenbar wird und bis nach Japan ?berschwappt. (Look, Paul [Finlow-B.]- one
more North German citizen who hates the Standard Germans ;-))!

Karl-Heinz, lass' uns in Zukunft nicht mehr '*B?tzfleth*', sondern '*
Schollenfilet*' sagen. Die gleichnamigen Einwohner verkaufen wir dann an *
'Himmelpforten*'- ?h- *'Haeben's D??r'* oder an '*Hammah*', platt '*Homer*'.

Um im gleichen Tenor zu bleiben: was f?r ein B*u*ckmist ;-)!
Sollte hier, bei uns, irgendwann ?hnliches verordnet werden, lass' ich den
besten Graffity-Sprayer aus Cuxhaven kommen und auf das vermadderte
Ortsschild ein knackiges Pin-Up applizieren.

> Gah mi dor vun af.
Klei mii ;-)!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Now, now, boys!

"Lowlands" doesn't have to mean "low road."

Man j?mmers suut un sinnig in'n Sandkassen!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071117/351b37ec/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 18 18:19:20 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:19:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.101920.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (08) [E]

Hi all,

Ben, I find it so incredibly petty when people try and push their narrow
views and tongues down my throat, and still see the same mentality here and
abroad.

I would have gladly spoken in French if I could!

It is the most glorious thing every morning to enter the lift in my office
building and be greeted by either a Dumelang! or Sanibona! or Goeie M?re!
and no one feels offended!

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/9728768a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 18 18:23:00 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:23:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.11.18 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.102300.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.11.17 (02) [E]

Roger,

As I understand, it is a means by which monies are collected (milked like a
cow) and to partake, the school pupils pay a certain amount and are allowed
to dress 'down'.

We have the same thing here in SA to collect monies for the cancer
association. It's called Casual Day; you dress in denims to work and pay R5
which is collected by a partaking bank on behalf of the cancer association.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.11.17 (02) [E]

Not sure what a cow raffle is (are they holding a raffle with a cow as the
prize? Or maybe it's one of those raffles where the winning numbers are
"selected" by a cow ? the field is marked with a numbered grid, and wherever
a cowpie lands is a winning number). The "dress down" part probably means
the students are allowed to wear regular clothes to school that day instead
of uniforms.

Kevin Caldwell
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/633c0c73/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 18 18:25:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:25:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.18 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.102547.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.17 (04) [E]

 In colloquial American English, the semantics of this expanded to include
"attractive", possibly via "admirably quick-/keen-witted". This appeared in
literature
in the early part of the 19th century. This sense predominates now. Not too
long ago it was limited to the sense of "sweet" or "precious", especially of
small or young creatures (including children) and female humans. In the
meantime, it has come to include the sense of "sexually attractive" with
reference
to both genders.

Paul, Ron, Elsie and all,

Whenever I hear the word "cute", I hear my mother watching our beloved
Arizona Diamondbacks baseball team back in Arizona. Whenever a new batter
would come up to bat, she would comment on whether he's cute or not. My dad,
my brother and I would just laugh and sigh, as we have no idea where she
gets her concepts. They have nothing at all to do with baseball. They're
just her concepts of what an attractive man is or is not. On the usage of
cute though, it's something that, in my estimation, is said by a woman about
a man. You would not catch a man dead saying that a woman is cute. She's
hot, but she is not cute!
Ben

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/d8e616ca/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 18 22:46:18 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:46:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.144618.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.17 (01) [E]

Hi all,

The best example of a cookie by any other name is still a cookie, was when
my youngest sister
sent me a parcel of "Maria" biscuits from Palo Alto, CA in the '80s.

Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser
 I was shocked to find out that Queen Elizabeth of England is not known as
Reina Elizabet here but Isabel! That sound so weird to me to think that the
brits are ruled by Ferdinand's wife? I see how it came down phonologically
from the Hebrew, but it's still strange.

Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Ben!

Names of famous people are very often translated in English too; e.g., ...

   - Edward of Portugal < (Portuguese) *Duarte de Portugal*
   - Ferdinand V of Aragon < (Castilian) *Fernando V de Arag?n*,
   (Aragonese) *Ferrando II d'Arag?n*, (Catalan) *Ferran II d'Arag?*
   - Henry the Navigator < (Portuguese) *Infante Dom Henrique, Infante de
   Sagres, Henrique o Navegador*
   - Isabella I of Castile < (Castilian) *Isabel I de Castilla*
   - Nicholas II of Russia < (Russian) *??????? II ?????????????
   ?????????????* (*Nikolaj II Aleksandrovi? Vserossiskij*)
   - Pippin the Short < (French) *P?pin le Bref *
   - Pope John Paul II < (Latin) *Papa Ioannes Paulus Secundus *
   - Suleiman the Magnificent < (Ottoman Turkish) ?????? ???????? (*Sulaym?n
   al-Q?n?n?*), (Turkish) *Kanuni Sultan S?leyman*
   - Wenceslaus (~ Wenceslas) IV < (Czech) *V?clav IV.*
   - William the Conqueror, William the Bastard < (Norman) *Gll?ome l?
   Counq??reus, Gll?ome l? B?tard*, (French) *Guillaume le Conqu?rant,
   Guillaume le B?tard*

----------

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell < kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

By the way, another diminutive of Elizabeth in English is Libby, sometimes
further shortened to Lib.  Then there's the nickname used by the boy for his
sister Elizabeth in the comic strip "For Better or for Worse": Lizard
Breath.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.17 (03) [E]

Reindert schreef:

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right.
Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than
when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Same name with same pronunciation is pretty common in the Netherlands, too.
It's an abbreviation of Reindert, the Dutch form of Reinhard.
And we have the (in)famous, smart and cunning fox "Reintje de Vos" of the
Medieval epic farce "van den Vos Reynaerde". I guess his name has
something to do with French R?nard = fox, but Reinhard is a Germanic name
too, of course. By which I don't mean to say anything about your foxiness
or foxilessness, of course ;-)
Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thanks for reminding us of "Libby," Kevin. It's interesting in that it
combines the "Li" of the original's stressed syllable and the "b" of the
last syllable.

One of the German and Low Saxon derivations of "Elisabeth" ([?e"li:zabEt])
is "Liesbeth" (["li:sbEt]). That was one of my second aunts' name, and down
in the former Sorbian area where she lived (right on the Polish border and
very close to the Czech border) I heard some people pronounce it as what
sounded like "Libbet" (["LIbEt"]) or "Libbit" (["lIbIt])*, though others
called her "Lies(e)l" ([li:zl]). (* The Lower Silesian German dialect on
Sorbian substrate spoken there tends to assimilate a sonorant, especially
/r/, to the following consonant, hence my maternal grandmother's
pronunciation of our names: Herta -> Hetta -> Hettl, Werner -> Wenner,
[Barbara >] B?rbel -> Bebbl, Reinhard -> Reinaddl, and her own name Martha
-> Matta -- all without aspiration, by the way.)

The older Low Saxon version of "Elizabeth" (found in the story about the
fisherman and his wife) is "Ilsebil", "Ilsebel", "Elsebel", etc. (from which
"Ilse" and "Else" are derived, now considered independent names). It is
interesting in that it seems to be a bit of a link between the two streams
the Hebrew name "Elisheva" (??????????? *'?liy?eba'* "My God Is My
Sustenance") followed in Europe: (1) "Elizabeth" etc., and (2) "Isabel" etc.
There is perhaps some confusion with "Jezebel" (Hebrew ???????? *'iyzebel* ~
???????? *'iyz?bel*, popularly translated as "Not Exalted" but more likely
being "Where Is The Lord," going back to Ugaritic times). This name acquired
a bad connotation (and possibly a changed reading) on the basis of a
biblical story and in English became a word describing a wicked woman.

Thanks for the info about my name in Dutch, Ingmar (> Mars > Mazzel?). I
find it interesting that Dutch (and Dutch-influenced Low Saxon) likes (or
liked) to insert a /d/ after /n/, as also in "Hendrik" (cf. "Henrik",
"Hinrik" and "Hinnerk" in other Low Saxon dialects).

Talking about "Hendrik" (= Heinrich, Henry, etc.), I wonder if the English
surname "Henderson" goes back to the often mentioned "Flemish" immigrants in
Britain ("Son of Hender" < Hendrik?).

Back to my legal first name ... The Middle Saxon equivalent is "Reynard"
with the diminutive form "Reynke", *Reynard the Fox* being *Reynke de
vos*in the Middle Saxon version (L?beck, 1498,
http://tinyurl.com/3b9jah). The Dutch version *Van den vos Reynaerde* (
http://tinyurl.com/37rcz2) is from the 13th century, the French version *Le
Roman de Renart* from the late 12th century, and this crafty fox is first
mentioned in the Latin mock-epic *Ysengrimus* in the mid-12th century.
Although most people believe this tradition is of French origin, I think
there's a distinct possibility of it being of Germanic, possibly Flemish,
origin, going by the names alone. It appears to be related to the Spanish *
Zorro* ("Fox") tradition. It is clear to me that the main purpose of the
story was social commentary centered around the figure of a clever outlaw
that exposes institutionalized insincerity and injustice.

The name Reynard, Reinhard, etc., comes from Raginhart: *ragin* 'counsel',
advice', 'guidance', *hart* 'hard', 'firm', 'reliable'. It appears to have
once been a title. *Ragin* is also contained in names like Reinhold,
Reginald, Reinaldo, Rainaud, Rainier, Ren?, Rainer, Ragnar, etc.

   - My least favorite namesake: Reinhard Heydrich, SS-Obergruppenf?hrer
   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich)
   - My most favorite namesake: Reinhard Mey (*Fr?d?rik Mey* in the
   Francophone world), singer/songwriter in German, French and occasionally
   Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey)*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey%29*>

As for your reference to my alleged "foxiness," Ingmar, well, I take it as a
compliment, and it flatters me to know that you find me that attractive.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

* Reinhard Mey is a real Lowlander at heart, by the way, even though he grew
up in formerly Low Saxon but long highly Germanized Berlin and was educated
in a Francophone school. He owns a house in Kampen (*Kaamp*), on the Island
of Sylt (


L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.17 (01) [E]

Hi all,

The best example of a cookie by any other name is still a cookie, was when
my youngest sister
sent me a parcel of "Maria" biscuits from Palo Alto, CA in the '80s.

Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser


I was shocked to find out that Queen Elizabeth of England is not known as
Reina Elizabet here but Isabel! That sound so weird to me to think that the
brits are ruled by Ferdinand's wife? I see how it came down phonologically
from the Hebrew, but it's still strange.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Ben!

Names of famous people are very often translated in English too; e.g., ...

?              Edward of Portugal < (Portuguese) Duarte de Portugal

?              Ferdinand V of Aragon < (Castilian) Fernando V de Arag?n,
(Aragonese) Ferrando II d'Arag?n , (Catalan) Ferran II d'Arag?

?              Henry the Navigator < (Portuguese) Infante Dom Henrique,
Infante de Sagres, Henrique o Navegador

?              Isabella I of Castile < (Castilian) Isabel I de Castilla

?              Nicholas II of Russia < (Russian) ??????? II ?????????????
????????????? (Nikolaj II Aleksandrovi? Vserossiskij)

?              Pippin the Short < (French) P?pin le Bref

?              Pope John Paul II < (Latin) Papa Ioannes Paulus Secundus

?              Suleiman the Magnificent < (Ottoman Turkish) ??????
???????? (Sulaym?n
al-Q?n?n?), (Turkish) Kanuni Sultan S?leyman

?              Wenceslaus (~ Wenceslas) IV < (Czech) V?clav IV.

?              William the Conqueror, William the Bastard < (Norman) Gll?ome
l? Counq??reus, Gll?ome l? B?tard, (French) Guillaume le Conqu?rant,
Guillaume le B?tard

----------

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell < kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

By the way, another diminutive of Elizabeth in English is Libby, sometimes
further shortened to Lib.  Then there's the nickname used by the boy for his
sister Elizabeth in the comic strip "For Better or for Worse": Lizard
Breath.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.17 (03) [E]

Reindert schreef:

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right.
Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than
when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Same name with same pronunciation is pretty common in the Netherlands, too.
It's an abbreviation of Reindert, the Dutch form of Reinhard.
And we have the (in)famous, smart and cunning fox "Reintje de Vos" of the
Medieval epic farce "van den Vos Reynaerde". I guess his name has
something to do with French R?nard = fox, but Reinhard is a Germanic name
too, of course. By which I don't mean to say anything about your foxiness
or foxilessness, of course ;-)
Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thanks for reminding us of "Libby," Kevin. It's interesting in that it
combines the "Li" of the original's stressed syllable and the "b" of the
last syllable.

One of the German and Low Saxon derivations of "Elisabeth" ([?e"li:zabEt])
is "Liesbeth" (["li:sbEt]). That was one of my second aunts' name, and down
in the former Sorbian area where she lived (right on the Polish border and
very close to the Czech border) I heard some people pronounce it as what
sounded like "Libbet" (["LIbEt"]) or "Libbit" (["lIbIt])*, though others
called her "Lies(e)l" ([li:zl]). (* The Lower Silesian German dialect on
Sorbian substrate spoken there tends to assimilate a sonorant, especially
/r/, to the following consonant, hence my maternal grandmother's
pronunciation of our names: Herta -> Hetta -> Hettl, Werner -> Wenner,
[Barbara >] B?rbel -> Bebbl, Reinhard -> Reinaddl, and her own name Martha
-> Matta -- all without aspiration, by the way.)

The older Low Saxon version of "Elizabeth" (found in the story about the
fisherman and his wife) is "Ilsebil", "Ilsebel", "Elsebel", etc. (from which
"Ilse" and "Else" are derived, now considered independent names). It is
interesting in that it seems to be a bit of a link between the two streams
the Hebrew name "Elisheva" (??????????? *'?liy?eba'* "My God Is My
Sustenance") followed in Europe: (1) "Elizabeth" etc., and (2) "Isabel" etc.
There is perhaps some confusion with "Jezebel" (Hebrew???????? * **'**iyzeb
el* ~????????  ***'**i**yz?bel*, popularly translated as "Not Exalted" but
more likely being "Where Is The Lord," going back to Ugaritic times). This
name acquired a bad connotation (and possibly a changed reading) on the
basis of a biblical story and in English became a word describing a wicked
woman.

Thanks for the info about my name in Dutch, Ingmar (> Mars > Mazzel?). I
find it interesting that Dutch (and Dutch-influenced Low Saxon) likes (or
liked) to insert a /d/ after /n/, as also in "Hendrik" (cf. "Henrik",
"Hinrik" and "Hinnerk" in other Low Saxon dialects).

Talking about "Hendrik" (= Heinrich, Henry, etc.), I wonder if the English
surname "Henderson" goes back to the often mentioned "Flemish" immigrants in
Britain ("Son of Hender" < Hendrik?).

Back to my legal first name ... The Middle Saxon equivalent is "Reynard"
with the diminutive form "Reynke", *Reynard the Fox* being *Reynke de
vos*in the Middle Saxon version (L?beck, 1498,
http://tinyurl.com/3b9jah). The Dutch version *Van den vos Reynaerde* (
http://tinyurl.com/37rcz2) is from the 13th century, the French version *Le
Roman de Renart* from the late 12th century, and this crafty fox is first
mentioned in the Latin mock-epic *Ysengrimus* in the mid-12th century.
Although most people believe this tradition is of French origin, I think
there's a distinct possibility of it being of Germanic, possibly Flemish,
origin, going by the names alone. It appears to be related to the Spanish *
Zorro* ("Fox") tradition. It is clear to me that the main purpose of the
story was social commentary centered around the figure of a clever outlaw
that exposes institutionalized insincerity and injustice.

The name Reynard, Reinhard, etc., comes from Raginhart: *ragin* 'counsel',
advice', 'guidance', *hard* 'hard', 'firm', 'reliable'. It appears to have
once been a title. *Ragin* is also contained in names like Reinhold,
Reginald, Reinaldo, Rainaud, Rainier, Ren?, Rainer, Ragnar, etc.

   - My least favorite namesake: Reinhard Heydrich, SS-Obergruppenf?hrer
   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich)
   - My most favorite namesake: Reinhard Mey ( *Fr?d?rik Mey* in the
   Francophone world), singer/songwriter in German, French and occasionally
   Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey)*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey%29*>

As for references to my alleged "foxiness," Ingmar, well, I take it as a
compliment, and it flatters me no end to know that at least one person on
LL-L finds me that attractive.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

* Reinhard Mey is a real Lowlander at heart, by the way, even though he grew
up in formerly Low Saxon but long highly Germanized Berlin and was educated
in a Francophone school. He owns a house in Kampen (*Kaamp*), on the Island
of Sylt (*S?l*), often expresses his love for the North Sea, displays an
affinity for the Dutch-speaking world, and two of his recent DVD titles are
North Frisian: *R?m Hart* ("Spacious Heart", http://tinyurl.com/2cpad7) and
*Klaar Kiming* ("Clear Horizon", http://tinyurl.com/2bypr3) based on the
North Frisian motto *R?m Hart, klaar Kiming*.), often expresses his love for
the North Sea, displays an affinity for the Dutch-speaking world, and two of
his DVD titles are North Frisian: *R?m Hart* ("Spacious Heart",
http://tinyurl.com/2cpad7) and *Klaar Kiming* ("Clear Horizon",
http://tinyurl.com/2bypr3) based on the North Frisian motto *R?m Hart, klaar
Kiming*.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/044a1703/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 02:23:34 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:23:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.18 (05) [LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.182334.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.17 (06) [E/LS]

To dat Thema "plattd??tsche Naams op Oortsschiller un de List vun
Fehrs-Gill un Sleswig-Holsteenschen Heimatbund" noch en Nadrag:
<http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2007/11/07/813579.html> Artikel "Besser
Bartheidel oder Bartheil?" in't Hamb?rger Avendblatt

Ik weet nu nich, ob dat nu Water op Jonny sien M?hlen is oder ob dat
ganz in't Gegendeel bewiesen deit, dat de L??d sik de Problems bewusst
s?nd, dor sch??lt ji s?lvst joon Oordeel maken.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Kriggst 'n Dank, Marcus.

S?lven kann ik daar keen Water bi sehn. Man in elk Fall k??nt wi Gummisch?h
antrecken un de M?hl ehrn Gang lopen laten.  ;-)

Dat klingt mi na 'n dane Saak. Man bloots 'n paar Enkelheiten m??t se noch
?ver snacken un lokaal "fastsetten".

So is 't bi annere Spraken je ook, bes?nners Spraken, de keen (noch)
Standard hebbt. F?r 't Schottsche gifft 't t.B. "Edinbury", "Embra" un
"Embro" f?r de s?lvige Stadt.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/5ae7fa6c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 07:28:27 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:28:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.NOV.2007.232827.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (04) [E]

 Ragin is also contained in names like Reinhold, Reginald, Reinaldo,
Rainaud, Rainier, Ren?, Rainer, Ragnar, etc.

Ron, I thought Rene / Ren? came from reborn as in the reborn Christ?
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

And you seem to be right, Ben. Thanks for watching. I checked several lists
on- and off-line. A few claim the alleged connections, but others, more
"serious" ones, side with you, saying that "Ren?" comes from Latin "Renatus"
meaning "reborn (one)".

By the way, does the following tally with your knowledge of your name,
provided it is Benjamin?

Source: Hebrew ?????????? (*biny?miyn*)

It is popularly understood to mean "son of the south". But in the Samaritan
Pentateuch it consistently appears as ?? ???? (or rather the equivalent in
Samaritan characters -- http://www.omniglot.com/writing/samaritan.htm). This
seems to stand for *b?n y?miym* "son of days", thought to be Jacob's
reference to his own old age when his last son was born.

Incidentally, German and Low Saxon have *Benjamin *(the "j" pronounced as
"y") as a noun as well, meaning "youngest son."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071118/88803120/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 16:37:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:37:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.19 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.NOV.2007.083747.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (06) [E]

 I'm not Benjamin. I'm Ben. My mom just liked the sound of Ben J. Bloomgren.
Ben

----------

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (06) [E]

  Ron stated that "Benjamin"
>


>  is popularly understood to mean "son of the south". But in the Samaritan
> Pentateuch it consistently appears as ?? ???? (or rather the equivalent in
> Samaritan characters -- http://www.omniglot.com/writing/samaritan.htm).
> This seems to stand for *b?n y?miym* "son of days", thought to be Jacob's
> reference to his own old age when his last son was born.
>
> Incidentally, German and Low Saxon have *Benjamin *(the "j" pronounced as
> "y") as a noun as well, meaning "youngest son.
>

As far as I know, wherever Spanish is spoken, but certainly in Puerto Rico,
"el Benjam?n de la familia" is the youngest son.
Of course the "j" is a rough "h".

Jorge Potter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071119/23a78197/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 16:54:03 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:54:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.19 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.NOV.2007.085403.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (09) [E]

Ron wrote:

"Linguistic terms are usually Latin-derived while most health-care terms are
Greek-derived."

Sorry, but I like the Greek one better.  I mean, if you want to sound truly
learned, Greek takes the cake.  (By the way, where does "taking the cake"
come from?)  Metharmchariterpnotize has a certain unpronounceable cach? that
can really one-up someone.

Then, there's always that lovely word "metathesis."  Does it come from
Greek?

Regards,

Mark Brooks
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Yes, Mark. "Methathesis" comes from Greek *????????? met?thesis* < *????**-
**meta-* 'with', 'after', 'between' (from the same origin as the Germanic
"mid" group) + *????? th?sis* 'putting', 'placing'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071119/df7de923/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 19 18:10:14 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:10:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.19 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.19.NOV.2007.101014.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.16 (07) [E/LS/German]

Marcus schreev,
> T?delkraam dat. L?tjensee is hoochd??tsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn
> vun
> af. Dat de Naam ut dat Plattd??tsche stammt ?nnert dor nix an.
>
Dear Marcus (and Heiko), I (and I suppose also Jonny) didn't want to offend
you. But for me (and probably also for Jonny) the thing is quite crazy.

You say, "l?tje-" is High-German, because it's used in High-German context
etc. The fact that its origin is Low German doesn't change that. Ok, yes I
know these arguments, that minorities have to kind of regain their
topographic names (which were sort of stolen by the majority languages) by
creating their own versions, proper versions of the names.

Ok, alright, but nevertheless for me it seems that "l?tje-" is more unique
than "l?tten-".

It is this small "-je" or "-tje", you now, an additional diminutive, quite
an unique thing in LG/LS. We don't have that in Standard German, not at all,
never heard of "kleinlein", "kleinchen" or so. So L?tjensee is
"Klein-Kleinsee", L?ttensee is only "Kleinsee". That's a loss, isn't it?

The "je" or "tje" diminutive seem to me a rare thing in LS, I suppose a
Nederlandism (or Low-Franconism) and/or Ripoarism, so in any case a
Franconism.

(In Allemannic varieties there is "klele", that would be "kleinlein" in
Standard German. Maybe in central German dialects there is something like
"klein[s]chen" or "l?t[s]chen".  Ripuarian has "-je", besides "-che" and
"-elche": , see: http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminutiv . But most
frequently we find "-je", "-tje" etc. in Low-Franconian/Dutch!)

Why must this unique Nederlandism in "L?tjensee" be aborted for a alegdedly
proper version i.e. "L?ttensee" with the argument it's a Germanism? That
doesn't fit to the Lowlands approach of this list!

Un wenn
> de Oort nu op Platt h?digendaags L?ttensee heet, denn schall disse Naam
> ?nnerd?kert warrn, denn he is ja man blot een Bookstaven wied weg vun
> dat Hoochd??tsche?
> not distinct enough to coexist, oder wat?

Ok, you say you want to make LG/LS visible. Ok, ok. But there is also one
thing you can't deny: The names are that close, that most people would get
the picture, that LG an HG are nearly the same. Do you want this kind of
visibility that will provoke people saying: "Also Plattdeutsch ist halt eben
doch nur ein Dialekt und keine eigene Sprache!"

You mentioned the article:
http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2007/11/07/813579.html

So it should be: (Bad) Oldesloe/Oschloe/Oslo/Olslo/Olschlo

Regards
Karl-Heinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Karl-Heinz,

This is not about what is "more unique." It's about a consistently
implemented regional program and about public reclamation or "re-owning" of
regional heritage.

You can't pick out one or two examples and on that basis dismiss the entire
program and the general intent. "L?ttjensee" is *not* the same as
"L?ttensee" (apart from the fact that in the latter "-see" is pronounced not
as in German but like English "zay"), and it's not about which one you find
nicer or "more unique." "Close enough" doesn't equal "the same," nor does it
make one override the other, nor does it say anything about the status of
the languages involved. If people decide on the basis of this one example
that we're not dealing with two languages, well, then they aren't exactly
open-minded and what you call "deep thinkers," are they? I don't think we
need to worry about them. It's like arriving in Aragon, Spain, seeing a sign
with the place names "Benabarre - Benavarri - Benabarri" and on this basis
declare that Castilian, Catalan and Aranese Occitan are really just dialects
of the same language and that displaying them all on signs is a waste of
time and money. Or you could go to Scotland, see (if you could) a sign with
"Aberdeen - Aiberdeen - Obar Dheathain" and decide that Scots (in second
place here) should have been omitted. Or you could go to Carinthia (*
K?rnten/Koro?ka*) in Austria and make a similar pronouncement about
Slovenian *Podgrad* appearing next to "German" *Pugrad* on the sign at the
village entrance. (Those guys that have been removing bilingual signs in the
area would be happy about that.)

To be sure, the vast majority of North German place names is derived from
Low Saxon. Most of the names are mixtures of translations and "phonetic"
adaptations of past times. Especially in the translation department, there
are numerous errors based on misunderstandings, as Jonny has pointed out on
several occasions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071119/6c1c5136/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 20 14:34:50 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:34:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.063450.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.19 (02) [E]

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (09) [E]
Sorry, but I like the Greek one better.  I mean, if you want to sound truly
learned, Greek takes the cake.  .....Then, there's always that lovely word
"metathesis."  Does it come from Greek?
Regards,
Mark Brooks
----------

My feeling is that this worship of Classical speech has watered down English
from the strong Lowlands Germanic it once was.  The belief that you have to
use such words ("big words") to seem wise is a blow to our forbears.  Read
Winston Churchill's "fight them on the beaches" speech to see what strength
lies in true Lowlands English.

That I write and say such Greekish and Latinish myself doesn't make it
otherwise (You'll see I've tried not to here).

I'd rather light a fire than ignite a conflagration, or precipitate
pyrotechnics.

Paul Finlow-Bates

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/59f60768/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 20 16:42:25 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:42:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.084225.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (01) [E]

Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:  "The belief that you have to use such words ("big
words") to seem wise is a blow to our forbears."

Paul, I go along with you fully (agree completely).  I wanted what I wrote
to have a "tongue in cheek" feel to it.

At my job I write stuff to teach our new workers with.  I like to stay away
from "Latinate" words, but I must say that I find it hard to do.  Working in
a big outfit for the folks of Texas, makes for a lot of words that do seem
too stretched out.  But, I guess it just what goes with the job.  ;-)

Mark Brooks

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Paul, I take it you are aware that what Mark, Sandy and I wrote about
terminology was really a spoof on the gratuitous invention and use of jargon
that is at least partly designed to dazzle, mystify and exclude people of
"inferior" formal education.

Linguistics' tradition is by no means immune to this. This is not only
because the discipline grew out of classics-based philology but also because
any field of study that wants to be accepted and taken seriously as an
academic discipline needs to take on the trappings of established and
respected fields, especially in the form of already existing jargon. This
seems to be especially so in the "soft sciences" that tend to be looked down
upon by people in the "hard sciences" or "real sciences."

Furthermore, I take it you pointed at the gratuitous use of non-German
words, the "big words," as you called them. Avoiding the use of Latinate
words (especially) in Modern English is impossible, since the language is
deeply imbued with and now dependent on them, especially as far as Norman
French influences are concerned. Native speakers don't even recognize most
of these words as being Latinate, and in many cases (such as "air", "carry",
"duty", "defend", "example", "moment", "part", "point") there are no
alternatives or only awkward-sounding ones, as in Churchill's said speech,
the last part serving as an example:

I have, myself, full *confidence* that if all do their *duty*, if nothing is
*neglected*, and if the best *arrangements* are made, as they are being
made, we shall prove ourselves once again *able* to *defend* our Island
home, to ride out the storm of *war*, and to outlive the *menace* of *
tyranny*, if *necessary* for years, if *necessary* alone. At any *rate*,
that is what we are going to *try* to do. That is the *resolve* of His *
Majesty's* *Government*-every man of them. That is the will of
*Parliament*and the
*nation*. The British *Empire* and the French *Republic*, linked together in
their *cause* and in their need, will *defend* to the death their *native* *
soil*, *aiding* each other like good *comrades* to the utmost of their
strength. Even though *large* *tracts* of Europe and many old and *famous* *
States* have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the *
odious* *apparatus* of Nazi *rule*, we shall not *flag* or *fail*. We shall
go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and *
oceans*, we shall fight with growing *confidence* and growing strength in
the *air*, we shall *defend* our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall
fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight
in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall
never *surrender*, and even if, which I do not for a *moment* believe, this
Island or a *large* *part* of it were *subjugated* and starving, then our *
Empire* beyond the seas, *armed* and *guarded* by the British Fleet, would *
carry* on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all
its *power* and might, steps forth to the *rescue* and the *liberation* of
the old.

Unfortunately, the dividing line between "ordinary words" and "big words" is
a blurry one. People's perception of what is one and what is the other
depends on their formal education, the company they keep, the literature
they read, and so forth. The other day I responded to someone's plea for
advice. I thought I talked in a very ordinary, everyday way, avoiding what I
thought were big words. The response came with a smile, "OK. Whatever it is
you just said." It made me feel bad, because I had not meant to talk above
her head and at the same time I avoid jumping to conclusions about people
and end up talking down to them and thus possibly coming across as
patronizing and insulting.

So perhaps things aren't really as simple as "native or not native" where
"native" includes "nativized" (i.e., of foreign origin but now perceived
native). Perhaps there is a multi-stage process in which foreign-derived
words gradually move toward full nativization. I am pretty sure that many
foreign-derived words most or all of us now perceive as being ordinary where
not so ordinary to past generations.

I also believe that similar things happened with Scandinavian loans and with
Celtic loans before that. In many cases the native English equivalents
disappeared, at least from today's mainstream language. An example is Old
English *micel* which survices only in some dialects and in Scots, apart
from the related word "much". "Big" is believed to be a Scandinavian loan.
Old English has *mara* 'very big/large' which I assume is of Celtic origin.
And "large" is of course of Old French origin, "stout" of Dutch origin.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/588f8233/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 20 17:32:25 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:32:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.093225.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Beste Paul,

You wrote:
> My feeling is that this worship of Classical speech has watered down
> English from the strong Lowlands Germanic it once was. The belief that
> you have to use such words ("big words") to seem wise is a blow to our
> forbears. Read Winston Churchill's "fight them on the beaches" speech
> to see what strength lies in true Lowlands English.
> That I write and say such Greekish and Latinish myself doesn't make it
> otherwise (You'll see I've tried not to here).
> I'd rather light a fire than ignite a conflagration, or precipitate
> pyrotechnics.

Of course you're right...but still...you did turn on your "(com)puter"
or "machine" in order to read all this, didn't you?

Aah Mister Churchill! The chap loved a good fight now and then it seems.
Pretty logical since his opponent was a little too keen on purifying the
Germanic "race", whereas Winston was definitely much more civilized and
courteous and merely wanted to cleanse the English language, getting rid
of those foreign, exotic terms. All in all, they were both hung up on
purification (sorry for this "nicht bodenst?ndiges" word).
Sign of the times?

In my view, acceptance of loanwords, doesn't immediately diminish the
value of native words. It's not as if they want to rule each other out
as soon as possible. New words will usually be bent and shaped till they
fit (and vice versa, forces work both ways). Many of those newcomers
will soon vanish, no problem with that, and the ones that are able to
stay for a thousand years or so will eventually prove that there's a
niche in that vocabulary. But you have to give that exogenous :-D
material a chance I think, no need for knee-jerk reactions. Don't worry,
our ancestors have done just the same when (technical) innovations swept
their world and eventually stuck around.

I do understand though that if phonetically a loanword is very hard to
pronounce for the receiving language, the latter may resort to
using/creating a native term, like ?? (di?nn?o) for computer in Chinese.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Luc.

Here's just a footnote for the edification of everyone.

?? (traditional ??) Standard Mandarin *di?nn?o, l*iterally "electro-brain".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/0aecbc34/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 20 17:44:40 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:44:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.094440.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

I take it the relative quiet around here is due to our Lowlanders in and
from the USA traveling and preparing for the most important holiday they
have in common, with the exception of most indigenous people.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! The travel craziness has begun. So be careful
out there!

Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/12c822db/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 03:35:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:35:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.NOV.2007.193508.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (04) [E]

 Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! The travel craziness has begun. So be careful
out there!
No birds for me! Mexico does nothing for thanksgiving. Today is my birthday
too, 11/20. I'm an old bird now, as I'll hit 26 tonight at 21:36 GMT-7.
This'll be my first Thanksgiving away from home, and none of us are taking
it well.
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Oh, poor, "old" Binners! Well, if it's any consolation, holidays away from
one's family are character-building, promoting personal growth.

Happy birthday, Ben! Don't be sad. I for one am thinking of you.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071120/44b2d83c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 19:58:06 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:58:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.115806.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  21 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (02) [E]

Ron, Mark and all;
I realised there was a tongue-in-cheek element. I also know it is impossible
to separate non-Germanic (I include Norse) absolutely - my example took
several tries, and sounds rather contrived.

On another site I belong to, a member is trying to promote what he calls
"Ednew English", and several have tried similar things in the past.  A few
alternatives  ("linkstrand" for "isthmus") are great, many sound plain
silly. The 19th C suggestion of "folkswain" for "omnibus" made sense, but
everybody says "bus" these days anyway.

But I still believe that in most cases, you clear the fog if you keep it
Anglo-Norse wherever you can.  Of course for many people clearing the fog is
the last thing they want, and over-latinising is very much the hallmark of
the lawyer and the politician for that very reason!

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Paul.

The use of jargon for the purpose of exclusion is very common practice the
world round, going far beyond the use of Latin and Greek. Among the most
extreme examples are the development of what amounts to separate languages
for the priest (or shaman) class, for initiated men, and separate languages
for men and women of the same group in addition to a common language.

The cases you mentioned are just not as extreme and clearcut in that
separation is "softer": "You get access if you're educated enough." Also,
the individual speaker cannot be accused of having instigated this since he
or she merely follows a guild tradition that was developed over quite some
time and has its roots in the use of Latin as an international lingua franca
of the learned. It is the *deliberate *use of less common Latin-based
choices in addressing the general public where things become "interesting."

There are or were other such guild languages in European cultures, for
instance terminologies of artisan's guilds that you could only fully acquire
through apprenticeship to the degree of journeyman. Such terminologies tend
to be native-based rather than foreign-based.

And then there are the so-called "jargons" of the social periphery, people
that are excluded or exclude themselves from mainstream society. However, as
I see it, here one must be careful to differentiate between the use of
jargon for deliberate exclusion from the use of "jargon" of necessity or
convenience. A case of deliberate exclusion is, I believe, Rotwelsch ("gang
gobbledigook"), a German-based "underworld" jargon peppered mainly with
words from Romance languages, Romany and Yiddish, most of them with a twist
or two so even speakers of the donor languages can't understand them.
(Rotwelsch is now extinct, but many imported terms are now well established
in German.) Another such case may be Traveller's Cant. In my opinion, cases
such as Polari and the earliest versions of Jewish languages represent the
other extreme, cases of necessity. Polari began as a type of international
pidgin once used among theater and circus people, originally fringe
societies of international origin, and the transition to Polari as a Gay
jargon developed from that. Beginnings of Jewish languages as jargons arose
from the need to augment the lexicons of the mainstream languages to
accommodate Jewish belief, philosophy and traditions for "inside use." The
transition from jargon to language is mostly due to isolation (including
relocation) at later points in time (Judeo-German > Yiddish, Judeo-Italian >
Italkian, Judeo-Portuguese > Lusitanic, Judeo-Spanish > Ladino,
Judeo-Catalan > Catalanic, Judeo-Proven?al > Shuadit, Judeo-French >
Zarphatic, Judeo-Czech > Knaanic, Judeo-Greek > Yevanic, Judeo-Georgian >
Gruzinic, Judeo-Farsi > Dzhidi etc., Judeo-Tajik > Bukhori, Judeo-Kushitic >
Kayla, and so forth). Some of them remain jargons in that they don't develop
their own structure, such as English-based Yinglish, Yeshivish and what you
might call "General Judeo-English." A couple of my Jewish friends began to
use the last of these with me once they knew I understand the terminology
and the culture behind it, and thus they don't need to explain or
paraphrase. The same goes for Muslim friends and their use of Arabic-derived
terminology. So in my opinion there is no intent to exclude others.

I am glad we agree that a lot of Latinate English words are so established
and generally understood that there is no need and no way to avoid them. It
is when people attempt to replace these that things become a bit silly in my
opinion. It tends to give Germans a bad taste in the mouth, because during
the Nazi period there was just such a campaign to "purify" German, and many
of the proposals are highly amusing (in large part due to ignorance) if they
weren't so preposterous and the philosophy behind it so sinister.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/e3e2329d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 22:22:33 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:22:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2007.11.21 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.142233.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Folks,

Our list server is misbehaving today, and I don't know if the naughty thing
will snap out of it before the end of the (very) Thanksgiving weekend (which
begins tomorrow). Messages are getting through in irregular intervals. I
have already alerted our good hosts at LINGUIST to it.

At any rate, please be understanding and patient. Also please keep copies of
your posting submissions just in case they fall through the cracks.

I will let you know when we are fully back in business.

Thanks.
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/1138c1ad/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 22:24:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:24:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.21 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.142407.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (05) [E]

Ben van harte fielseteerd en daj en nog hiel veule jaoren der bij.

Arend Victorie

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/323876e9/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 00:48:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:48:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.164826.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (01) [E]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.20 (02) [E]
>
> On another site I belong to, a member is trying to promote what he
> calls "Ednew English", and several have tried similar things in the
> past.  A few alternatives  ("linkstrand" for "isthmus") are great,
> many sound plain silly. The 19th C suggestion of "folkswain" for
> "omnibus" made sense, but everybody says "bus" these days anyway.
>
> But I still believe that in most cases, you clear the fog if you keep
> it Anglo-Norse wherever you can.  Of course for many people clearing
> the fog is the last thing they want, and over-latinising is very much
> the hallmark of the lawyer and the politician for that very reason!

OK, having just come home from a psychology course where my
communication support worker was tearing her hair out trying to put
phrases like "sociotropic depresogenic schemata" into BSL, and therefore
agreeing that long words can be used in a most obfuscatory fashion at
times, especially for those who aren't au fait with the subject matter,
I would still say that it's a myth that "saxonised" English is clearer
than English with the usual dosage of latinate vocabulary.

It may be obscuring your meaning to say "I rescued a homo sapiens from
the conflagration", rather than "I saved someone from the fire", but
nevertheless, "rescue", "homo sapiens" and "conflagration" don't mean
quite the same thing as "save", "someone" and "fire". In a different
context you might well need to say "homo sapiens" for the sake of
clarity, since "someone" cpuld easily be taken to cover Neanderthals, "I
saved my money" isn't the same thing as "I rescued my money", and a
conflagration is much more than a fire.

It's a mistake to think clarity can be achieved by prescribing
vocabulary against the grain of common usage, and it's a mistake to
think that you have a choice between Saxon and Latin in English: the
best choice for good English (or good any language) is the mot juste.

I think that what gives the people the impression that latinate
vocabulary in English is unclear is that people often use it to obscure
their meaning (sometimes only from people outside their circle), but it
doesn't follow that making your meaning clear involves choosing
anglo-saxon words wherever possible: it involves choosing the best
English words for the occasion, and that includes both kinds of
vocabulary.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (01) [E]

Reinhard schreef:
And then there are the so-called "jargons" of the social periphery, people
that are excluded or exclude themselves from mainstream society. However,
as I see it, here one must be careful to differentiate between the use of
jargon for deliberate exclusion from the use of "jargon" of necessity or
convenience. A case of deliberate exclusion is, I believe, Rotwelsch ("gang
gobbledigook"), a German-based "underworld" jargon peppered mainly with
words from Romance languages, Romany and Yiddish, most of them with a twist
or two so even speakers of the donor languages can't understand them.
(Rotwelsch is now extinct, but many imported terms are now well established
in German.)

In the Netherlands, especially Amsterdam, "Bargoens" is more or less
comparable with Rotwelsch in Germany. It was also called "dieventaal" in
the past, the language of thieves, and has a lot of corrupted Yiddish
derived stuff in it, that are now common in colloquial Dutch (e.g. porem =
face, stiekem = sneaky, jajem = gin), and some "Gipsy" words as well (e.g.
bink = guy, joekel = dog). The name "Bargoens" is said to be from two
Breton words, bar + gwyn = bread and wine...

Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Ingmar!

I wonder if there are overlaps between Bargoens and Rotwelsch.

Also, quite a few Rotwelsch words ended up in Low Saxon of Germany. I'm not
sure if any of them were adopted directly, i.e., not via German.

Off the top of my head I can think of the following:

   - *Bock* 'desire', 'craving' < Romani *bokh* 'hunger'
   - *dufte* 'nice', 'great' < Yiddish ???? *tof* < Hebrew ??? *tov*'good'
   - *Kaff* 'village/town at the back of beyond' < Yiddish ??? *kafer *<
   Hebrew ??? *kafar *'village'
   - *Knast* 'jail time', 'jail', 'prison' < Yiddish ??? *knas* '(money)
   fine' < Hebrew ??? *qanas *'to punish'
   - *meschugge* 'crazy' < Yiddish ????? *meshuge* < Hebrew ????? *
   m'?uga'* 'crazy'
   - *mies* : 'bad', 'inferior' < Yiddish ????? *mis* < Hebrew ????? *
   miy'uws* 'loathsome', 'disgusting'
   - *Mischpoche* ~ *Mischpoke* 'family' (derogatory), 'bunch of
   low-lives' < Yiddish ?????? *mishpakha *< Hebrew ?????? *mi**?p**?**h*
   *?**h* 'family', 'clan'
   - *schofel* : 'impolite', 'rude' < Yiddish ??? *shofl *< Hebrew ??? *
   ??pal* 'inferior'
   - *vermasseln* 'spoil' < Yiddish ??? *mazl *< Hebrew ??? *mazal *
   'luck'

By the way, some derive the *Rot-* part of the name from Romany *rat* ~ *rot
* 'wrong', 'deceptive'.

There are, or better used to be, many types of Rotwelsch and jargons related
to it, e.g.,

   - Buttjersprache of Minden on the Weser at the edge of Germany's
   southwestern Low Saxon area (mostly Romani- but indirectly also
   Yiddish-influenced Missingsch! e.g., *latscho* 'good' < Romani *ladzho
   * 'good'; *Universit?t* 'prison'; *Kaum haste den jadjedi inne feme un
   denkst, nu kommste ans Schickern, da schallert der dich noch 'ne Strophe!
   * = German: *Kaum hast du den Schnaps in der Hand und denkst: jetzt
   f?ngt das Trinken an, da singt der noch 'ne Strophe* = 'You've hardly
   got the drink in your hand and think the round of drinking starts when that
   guy sings yet another verse.')
   - Jenisch (Yeniche) in Southern Germany, Switzerland and Austria
   (mostly Romani-influenced)
   - Kochum of Hundshagen in Thuringia, Germany (mostly
   Romani-influenced)
   - Lotegorisch (< Yiddish ????????? *loshn koydesh* < Hebrew* *?????????
   *la**?own-qowde**?* 'sacred language' = 'Hebrew') of Germany's
   Palatinate (mostly West-Yiddish-influenced)
   - Manisch of the German towns of Gie?en, Marburg and Wetzlar (mostly
   Romani-influenced)
   - Masematte of M?nster, Westphalia, Germany (mostly Low Saxon with
   Western Yiddish!)

Bargoens:

   - *bink* 'guy' < Romani *beng* 'devil', 'policeman'?
   - *jajem *'gin' < Yiddish ??? *yayin *< Hebrew ??? *yayin *'wine'?
   - *joekel* 'dog' < Romany *yukkal* ~ *yukkal* 'dog' (cf. English
   "jackal" < Turkish *?akal* < Persian ???? *?**a?**?**l* = Bengali
   ????? *?rak?l*, Hindi ?????? *?rag?l*, Sanskrit ?????* ?r?g?la*)
   - *porem* 'face' < Yiddish ????? *ponem* < Hebrew ????? *p**?**nim*'face'?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/d576c59c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 21 20:00:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:00:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.21 (02) [LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.120008.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  21 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2007.11.20 (05) [E]

Ben van harte fielseteerd en daj en nog hiel veule jaoren der bij.

Arend Victorie

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/e32e1684/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 06:37:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:37:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.21 (05) [LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.NOV.2007.223742.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.20 (08) [LS/G]

Den 17.11.2007 schraiv Marcus Buck:

> L?tjensee is hoochd??tsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn vun
> af. Dat de Naam ut dat Plattd??tsche stammt ?nnert dor nix an.

Ney, ney, eerbare Marcus unde alle:

"L?tjensee" *is* platt, un was syd Jarhunnerde goudet sassisk.
"L?tjen" is eyn anner (auk oustfreysk?) utsprauk van "l?tk",
"l?tken". Un dat is dat echte LS ward for ing. small, little (sic!).

Middelsassisk achter Mittelniederdeutsches Handw?rterbuch van August
L?bben:

luttik, klein, gering, wenig
(auk: lutgut, luttink, -ing)

Un "lutgut" w?rde vandage t. b. in't westf??lske "l?ttchuet" o. ?.
segget.

Dey eerste orkundlike t?gnisse van dat dorp L?tjensee is van anno
domini 1248! Un dartomaulen hewwet dey l?de wisse nich haugd?tsk
snackt, ofte?

> Un wenn
> de Oort nu op Platt h?digendaags L?ttensee heet, denn schall disse
> Naam
> ?nnerd?kert warrn

Dey heyt men nich "L?ttensee", s?nder "L?tjensee", as j?mmer.

"L?tten" is men eyn ti?mlik affschliepen platt, (?mme nich to seggen
"Pidgin Platt") men dat, wat de Fehrs-Gilde as alleyn-si?ligmakend
Plattd??tsch utgifft.

Dat is, as wenn du unner "Kattenvenne" (sau heyt dey stade alj?mmer
amtlik) nu "Kattenwende" schrywen w?rdst, wyldat "Venne" nich in'n
SASS steyt... (ofte unner "Jeggen" - as dat duarp by Ossenbr?gge in
gouden aulden platt vandage no heyt - nu "Jagen" ofte "Jogen").

> Wenn ik op Hoochd??tsch 'Browser' seggen do, denn is dat
> keen engelsch Woort, denn is dat en hoochd??tsch Woort, dat ut dat
> Engelsche ?vernahmen is.

Jau, men eyn kon je auk "brausker" ("ruhmrediger Polterer") darto
seggen, denn is dat plattd?tsk.;-)

Men in ?renst: wenn du "l?tje" ingiffst by

http://www.deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/wsuchen.php

denn kriggst du utgiewen:

l?ttjet, l?ttjen, un: L?ttjep?ttje!

Dat is je wal eyn wyd-bekanndet vertellsel-j?ngeken in't Sleswiger un/
of Holsteyner Platt!

Un dar meyn ik, dat is eyn bietken engsichtig un for dat plattd?tske
roup-sch?dlik, wenn eyn darup bestaun w?rde, dat sey pattu auk no de
verkr??melten of verkr??lpeden Namen "L?ttensee" unner dat sch?yne
"L?tjensee" schrywen s?elen.

Goudgaun!
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Leyve Joachim,

Marcus syn beduyden was dat dey *naam* "L?ttjensee" -- oevernamen vun 't
Neddersassische in ?ldere tyden -- nu eyn Hoogduytschen naam is, j?st as t.b.
"Istanbul" -- oevernamen vun T?rksch *?stanbul* -- eyn Hoogduytschen naam is
un keyn T?rkschen wen hey in 't Hoogduytsche bruukt wardt. Wat dey oursprung
vun dey naams is, dat is 'n heyl annern snak.

In d'n Neddersassischen dialekt vun Stormarn heytt dey stad vundagigendaags
"L?ttensey" (L?ttensee). "L?ttjensee" is histoorsch un, as ik al seed', nu
man bloots dey Hoogduytsche naam. Welken vun j?m Dy or annere luyd' meyr
tou-segd, dat is in d?sse saak vun keyn belang. Dey daadsaak is un blivt,
dat "L?ttjensee" nu Hoogduytsch un "L?ttensee" Nedderduytsch
(Neddersassisch) is.

Wat wy hyr vun snakken dout, dat noymt sik *nativization*, dat invoyren vun
eyn wourd or naam as dey spraak eer eygen.

Dey stad K?ln t.b. heytt *Colonia Agrippina* up Latynsch, kort *Colonia*, un
dat was dey eyrste naam. Schullen wy seggen dat is dey betere naam un dat
daarwegen ook Italieensch un Spaansch *Colonia*, Veneciaansch *Co?onia*,
Portugeessch *Col?nia*, Katalaansch *Col?nia*, Baskisch un Poolsch *Kolonia*,
un Fransch un Ingelsch *Cologne* altouhoup beter s?nd? Or schullen wy
seggen, dat man bloots "K?ln" rejaal is, wyl dat dat 'n Duytsche stad is?
Tjer, dey orginale spraak is daar dat Ripuaarsche vun K?ln (*K?lsch*), un
daar, as ook in 't Limborgsche, heytt dat *K?lle* wat vun **K?llen* af-keym,
in 't Nedderlandsche un Afrikaans *Keulen* (K?len), wat ook neyger is.

Dey daadsaak is dat al dey spraken eyren eygenen naam v?r dey stad hebt, un
wouneem dey vun af-keym, dat is eyndound. Aserbaydschaansch, Bosnisch,
Eestnisch, Finnsch, Indoneessch, Rumeensch, Sweedsch, Ungaarsch, T?rksch un
Yslandsch hebt ook den naam *K?ln** v*?r dey stad. Keym dat vun 't Duytsche
af? Ja. Is dat 'n Duytschen naam in dey daar spraken. Nee!

Kumpelmenten,
Rein hard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071121/4db5b989/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 19:48:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:48:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.114835.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (04) [E]

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (01) [E]


"It's a mistake to think clarity can be achieved by prescribing
vocabulary against the grain of common usage, and it's a mistake to
think that you have a choice between Saxon and Latin in English: the
best choice for good English (or good any language) is the mot juste."


Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

Hi Sandy,

I sort of two-thirds agree. The danger with English being "over-classical"
is the belief that such words are somehow naturally better. This is an
affliction that I find affects non-native learners, especially those from
Africa and SE Asia; There is clearly a taught idea that "excavate" is good
English whereas "dig" is somehow "low class" or uneducated.

And this leads back to a favourite bee in my bonnet; England has largely
lost English, in a way that Scotland hasn't lost Scots or the Netherlands,
Dutch.  We have no national language in the same sense, only dialects that
are pretty well the exclusive property of the local users.

Paul

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/c8790800/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 19:50:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:50:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.22 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.115031.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.21 (05) [LS]

 Joachim schrieb:

Den 17.11.2007 schraiv Marcus Buck:

> L?tjensee is hoochd??tsch, dor bitt de Muus keen Enn vun
> af. Dat de Naam ut dat Plattd??tsche stammt ?nnert dor nix an.

Ney, ney, eerbare Marcus unde alle:

"L?tjensee" *is* platt, un was syd Jarhunnerde goudet sassisk.
"L?tjen" is eyn anner (auk oustfreysk?) utsprauk van "l?tk",
"l?tken". Un dat is dat echte LS ward for ing. small, little (sic!).

Nat?rlich hat er Recht. S?dlich von Hannover hei?t es "l?tjen", nicht
"l?tten" wie im K?stenplatt. Auch in Ortsnamen wie z. B. L?tgenrode oder
L?tjen Barkel (hochdeutsch: Klein Berkel). Es gibt eben kein einheitliches
"Nieders?chsisch", und nicht alles, was dem eigenen Dialekt nicht
entspricht, ist deshalb gleich Hochdeutsch!

Gabriele Kahn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/8fb391ac/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 19:53:09 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:53:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.115309.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (04) [E]

Beste Ron, Jacqueline en allemaal,
Bargoens (dieventaal) komt van Bourgondisch. In West-Vlaanderen klonk het
steeds als Borgoens en in Brugge is er in de Wollestraat een restaurant "Het
Bourgoensch Hof".
Vlaanderen hoorde in de late middeleeuwen tot Bourgondi? en er werd dan ook
wel wat toendertijds Frans gehoord. Deze door het volk niet altijd begrepen
taal was Borgoens!
Amsterdam wordt vermeld als de stad van veel Bargoens.
In Oost-Vlaanderen was hiervoor gekend Zele (er bestaat een Bargoens
woordenboek van het Zeels) en in West-Vlaanderen Roeselare. In deze laatste
stad werd Bargoens gesproken door een aantal families van leurders en
straatventers. De kopers mochten hen niet altijd begrijpen. Enkele
voorbeelden: peeuwen = handen; bing = kerel, jongen, man; een ei klutsen =
een sigaret roken; een pafferik = sigaret; in het Zeels bijvoorbeeld wilde
men het niet dat anderen begrepen dat men over zichzelf praatte, er werd dan
ook niet gezegd "ik zal", maar "michel zal" (miechel).
Een voorbeeld van "algemeen Nederlands" Bargoens: poen = geld.
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/8b0fad10/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 22:03:59 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:03:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.140359.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

Those of you that can't follow messages in Low Saxon and German but once in
a while get to see a snippet about it in English must be wondering what this
thread is about.

It began with a report (by Heiko, I believe) about the a program of creating
bilingual place name signs in the district of Stormarn in Germany's state of
Schleswig-Holstein. Jonny characterized this program as frivolous and
financially extravagant and argued that a few of the German and Low Saxon
names are very similar to each other, making this a silly exercise. Heiko,
on the other hand, reminded us that this is a regional program and that
picking out one or two seemingly "weak" examples to discredit it is not
fair, and he also pointed out that the estimated costs have been blown out
of all proportion and thrown out there as a red herring together with
scaremongering about evil language engineering intents by those that oppose
the effort. He further explained that a lot of research had gone into
determining the respective names in the local Low Saxon dialects. It is also
clear from this that this program has nothing to do with language planning,
which makes references to anything like "Standard Low Saxon" agendas quite
irrelevant.

The apparently "weakest" case that opponents to the program hung their hats
on was that of a place called "L?ttjensee" (["lYtj at nze:]) in German and
"L?ttensee" (["lYtnzEI]) in the local Low Saxon dialect. The idea seems to
have been that "L?ttjensee" *is* Low Saxon and is better or more original
than "L?ttensee". Marcus explained that "L?ttjensee" is *not* today's Low
Saxon name but "L?ttensee" is, that "L?ttjensee" is in fact today's
*German*name for the place. This was followed by objections saying
that
*l?ttje *is indeed Low Saxon, can be found in various dialects throughout
Northern Germany, and a couple of those that wrote these objections said
they preferred it. Getting the feeling that Marcus' argument had not been
understood for conceptual reasons, I sided with Marcus' argument and
explained the concept that by importing a name or word a language makes it
its own. In other words, "L?ttjensee," even though of older Low Saxon
origin, is in fact a ("High") German name, while the Low Saxon name changed
and nowadays is "L?ttensee." In yet other words, the fact that the German
name is of Low Saxon origin does not change the fact that it is a German
name, and the respective names in the respective languages are free to take
on lives of their own (which happened in the case of Low Saxon).
Furthermore, I argued that people preferring "L?ttjensee" does not make it
Low Saxon *now*.

Let's take a couple of other examples for those that are still conceptually
challenged.

"Toronto" is an English name. Yes, it was derived from Mohawk
*Ateronto *("place
with fish weirs"). So the name "Toronto" is an English name of Mohawk
origin. Is it a Mohawk name? No! It is an *English* name.

"Milan" is an English name for a city in Italy. It goes back to Latin *
Mediolanum*. The Italian version is *Milano*. English is likely to have
imported the name from French *Milan* ([mi"lA~]), directly or indirectly
(cf. Western Lombard *Milan *[mi"lan]). So, when you say "Milan" while
speaking English, are you in fact using a French or Lombard name? No! You
are using an *English* name. The fact that it is of French and/or Lombard
origin does not change this. Theoretically, over time the name could have
changed in all of the languages involved.In many cases this does happen, and
this shows you that the versions in the different language varieties are
independent from each other.

To summarize the universally accepted concept underlying Marcus' and my
argument:

   - A word or name imported from language A to language B, though within
   a historical context a loanword, becomes a word or name in its own right in
   language B. The average speaker does not care what its origin is.
   ("Nativization")
   - After adoption in language B, the word or name may take on a life of
   its own, and the original word or name in language A (the donor language)
   may also develop independently. In other words, we have two languages and
   two words or names, even though the latter are of the same origin.
   - The recipient language (here language B) may be more conservative
   and retain the word or name as it was at the time of importation, and the
   donor language (here language A) may be less conservative and change the
   corresponding word or name. Is one "better" or "more correct" than the
   other, for instance because it is "more original" or "more unique" (*
   sic.*)? No! Such information is only relevant in diachronic,
   etymological contexts. In a synchronic context (i.e., how the
   different language varieties are *at this point in time or at another
   specific point in time*) this is totally irrelevant; we are dealing
   with separate words or names in separate language varieties. Equally
   irrelevant are personal likes and dislikes.

It is very common for people that don't understand these concepts to mix up
historical and contemporary (or diachronic and synchronic) aspects in their
arguments, and the end result is that people talk past each other.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
*

***
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/61f83123/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 22 23:31:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:31:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.153142.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.22 (01) [E]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.21 (04) [E]

> Hi Sandy,
>
> I sort of two-thirds agree. The danger with English being
> "over-classical" is the belief that such words are somehow naturally
> better. This is an affliction that I find affects non-native learners,
> especially those from Africa and SE Asia; There is clearly a taught
> idea that "excavate" is good English whereas "dig" is somehow "low
> class" or uneducated.

Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig" from the
language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is impoverished.
Worse still, non-native learners might still stick with "excavate" and
so on, and the language starts to split into different varieties in
which the meanings of the remaining words adjust to fill the gaps left
by the abolished words, so that none of them are any longer English as
we knew it, nor as we tried to engineer it.

One of the problems with anglosaxonics, shavianism, esperantism and so
on is that enthusiasts believe in the idea that the whole world will one
day embrace their ideas. Anglosaxonics was sick unto death in its
heyday, what's different now? The Internet makes these things more
available but it doesn't seem to make them catch on.

I suppose all language enthusiasts suffer a bit of Weltschmertz over how
certain groups use a language, but you ponder the meaning of that word
and realise that this is how things are. Language use in the real world
will always disappoint the purist.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/dfdb85d4/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 02:43:23 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:43:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.NOV.2007.184323.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]

Dear Sandy Fleming and rest of Lowlanders,

And I agree with your saying:

>
> Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig" from the
> language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is impoverished.



 Dear Sandy Fleming and rest of Lowlanders,

And I agree with your saying:


> Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig" from the
> language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is impoverished.
>

I would just like to add another dimension to the discussion, mainly the
esthetic. When writing a poem, or anything else, anyone would prefer to use
a word like "zip" rather than "enthusiasm", "many" instead of
"multitudinous", "good" for "beneficent", etc.

Generally the only times I use Roget's "Thesaurus" is to achieve a smoother,
yet peppier flow of language or even just a shorter word.

Academics, lawyers and other specialists need certain highfalutin words that
can often be avoided by others, regardless of language. In Spanish, simple
"ense?anza" often is better than "pedagog?a", "vender" rather than
"mercadear", etc.

Jorge Potter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071122/6b66fa8a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 18:18:30 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:18:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.101830.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.22 (01) [E]

Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig" from the
language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is impoverished.
Worse still, non-native learners might still stick with "excavate" and
so on, and the language starts to split into different varieties in
which the meanings of the remaining words adjust to fill the gaps left
by the abolished words, so that none of them are any longer English as
we knew it, nor as we tried to engineer it.

One of the problems with anglosaxonics, shavianism, esperantism and so
on is that enthusiasts believe in the idea that the whole world will one
day embrace their ideas. Anglosaxonics was sick unto death in its
heyday, what's different now? The Internet makes these things more
available but it doesn't seem to make them catch on.

I suppose all language enthusiasts suffer a bit of Weltschmertz over how
certain groups use a language, but you ponder the meaning of that word
and realise that this is how things are. Language use in the real world
will always disappoint the purist.

Just for the record, as a geotechnical engineer I use "excavate" all the
time :)

I think we're essentially saying the same thing, I just lean more to
"Anglo-Germanic" where it does the job. I can't talk about medical,
scientific or indeed a lot of everyday social/economic matters without
Classical or Romance input.  As for other borrowings, I eat a version of the
Nahua *Xocolatl*, rather than "sweetbrownstickyfood".  But I'd still rather
walk in the hills than perambulate in the elevated terrain.

Paul

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/daccb592/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 19:24:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:24:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (02) [E/S]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.112408.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Lowlanders!

Those of you interested in linguistic rights issues may enjoy browsing
through the latest issue of the Eurolang journal (http://www.eurolang.net/),
as always the first-stop information resource about European minority
language matters.

Several article are directly relevant to our focus:

   - The BBC is being criticized from various sides. One of the issues is
   its failure to include Scots (as well as Cornish).
   [The West of Scotland MSP Dr Bill Wilson (SNP) has lodged a motion in
   the Scottish Parliament calling for Scots to be mentioned. According to Dr
   Wilson: "It's about time the BBC acknowledges that Scots is a national
   treasure ? a highly descriptive and characterful language, a language that
   has survived despite concerted attempts to extinguish it. The BBC should be
   proud of our country and its three indigenous languages. Together, Scots,
   Gaelic and English shaped us.  Continue to deny one of them and you damage
   our identity and prevent the country reaching its full cultural potential."]
   Weel, fowk, A dinna ettle tae pit in ma spuin an eikle the gurly
   clamjamfrie, bit as an Escotophile Commonwalth ceetizen an ane o Her
   Maijesty's hummle subjecs A maun remember ye o the follaein addresses o the
   BBC:
   - http://www.bbc.co.uk/
      - http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/
      - http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
      - http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/contactus/form.shtml


   - "Praat mar Frysk!" says Coutzen Krous, one of l'Or?al's top models
   currently living in New York City, the highest-paid model from the
   Netherlands ever. She is stepping up as a spokesperson for the Frisian
   language under motto of the Frisian Language Institute (Af?k). Her main aim
   seems to be to encourage people to use Frisian. If the media don't edit out
   such exotic language activist outbursts, Coutzen's efforts might even tell
   people that Frisians aren't only cows. The international media certainly
   routinely ignore the Frisianness of Olympic gold medal winners from the
   Netherlands, probably as confusing trivia. Will a blond beauty icon succeed
   where others have failed?

Please find these and other interesting news here: http://www.eurolang.net/

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/a69628b7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 20:17:58 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:17:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.121758.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]

Beste Ron, Marcus e.a.;

Ron, you tried to explain the difference between *L?ttjensee* or *L?ttensee,
* depending of its use either in Low Saxon or German.
You wrote:

In other words, "L?ttjensee," even though of older Low Saxon origin, is in
fact a ("High") German name, while the Low Saxon name changed and nowadays
is "L?ttensee." In yet other words, the fact that the German name is of Low
Saxon origin does not change the fact that it is a German name, and the
respective names in the respective languages are free to take on lives of
their own (which happened in the case of Low Saxon). Furthermore, I argued
that people preferring "L?ttjensee" does not make it Low Saxon *now*.

I have to admitt that I'm a little confused at the moment.

If my son is coming from fishing and tells me: "Ich habe 10 Aale gefangen,
sieben davon habe ich behalten. Drei waren zu l?tt, die habe ich wieder
zur?ckgesetzt (I caught 10 eels, seven of them I brought with me. Three of
them were too small, so I put them back into the river)". As you might see-
he uses *'l?tt' *in a Standard German context. So it's a Standard German
word here?! ***

Next time I meet my neighbour, a fanatic fisherman too. We use to speak LS
to each other. He might tell me "Ick hebb vandoog 10 Ool'n fungen, s?ben
doorvan hebb ick behoul'n. Drey weyr'n tou *l?tt*, de hebb 'ck weller
tr?chsett' (see above!)". So this time *'l?tt'* is Low Saxon because of its
use in a Low Saxon context?!

If I talk to the same neighbour about *'L?tjensee'/'L?ttensee'* we might use
both versions in *our* local dialect, but never would be aware of the fact
that one of them (I forgot which one ;-)) is Standard German and the other
one could be more LS.
( ** *BTW: _l?tt_ even is enlisted in the DUDEN as a Standard German word)

Another example: some of you might know the word "Kinder mit 'nem Will'n,
kriegen was auf die Bill'n (Children with a will will get somewhat on their
back side)". Is it a Standard German proverb or is it Low Saxon, because the
*'Bill'n'*-component is LS and the rest is German!? Be honest- who of you
knew that *'Bill'* means G:'Pobacke' E: 'buttcheek'? Though I grew up with
these words I had never known it up to any half year ago, and I guess so
didn't the people who liked to use it in my childhood.
So *'Bill'* must be a Standard German word on behalf of its frequently use
in a German context! But you won't find many German speakers, neither in the
North nor certainly in the South who know its meaning.

'Der Hullen' (official location name in the neighbourhood) had been 'Hullen'
since some hundred years, and we still use the word in LS as well as in
German to denote an island. So we should stop it using when we want to talk
correct, unwatered LS?

I could list up another hundred cases of this sort but I fear it wouldn't
help to make your kind of hair-splitting argumentation clearer to the rest
of the world ;-)....

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

I'm pleased you are eager to know more about this, Jonny. I will try to keep
my response as concise as possible. And please bear in mind that I am
talking about well-established principles here, not about my own
concoctions.

There is a difference between a loanword that is used occasionally and one
that is used regularly (i.e., is "nativized").

An occasionally used loanword is just that that. For instance, if I say, "My
favorite Chinese snack food is *shuijiao*, a type of steamed dumpling," then
*shuijiao* is an occasionally used foreign item (i.e., loanword). If for
some reason this food becomes so common in my specific speaker community
that everyone uses the name, then it has been nativized, i.e., adopted into
the "main compartment" of the lexicon of our common language variety. A
language variety may be a local dialect, a sociolect (for instance in the
jargon of "foodies") or in fact adopted in a country's regular standard
language. As long as a group of people uses the word regularly it belongs to
this common lexical set. Its origin, though correctly assumed in this case,
becomes irrelevant to all but foodies and etymologists.

*L?tt* 'little', 'small', is regularly used in most Missingsch varieties and
Missingsch-derived German varieties of Northern Germany. It thus is a
lexical item in those language varieties, and its origin as a loanword is
probably not relevant in most contexts. Being often heard, it is also
understood by people that use different German varieties, but they would not
normally use it; so it is foreign but recognizable (i.e., in the passive
lexicon, not in the active one). It is similar to Scots *wee* 'little',
'small', being used only in informal Scottish English, but widely understood
in the English-speaking world. Some people may use it "for effect" once in a
blue moon, which makes it an occasionally used loanword, one that you
retrieve from your passive lexicon for one-time use. You may occasionally
use *l?tt* in a casual speech or writing mode that you consider Standard
German, but you would not use it in formal, "serious" speaking and writing
modes. This shows you that its use is restricted to a certain register. If
you happen to live in an area in which the Low Saxon dialect has
*l**?ttje*instead, you are likely to use it rather than
*l**?tt* in the local German variety, either occasionally or, in casual
modes, regularly. Those are language *varieties* and registers, of which
there are many in any given language. This does not make it "standard."
"Standard" is a codified variety that people of various regions have in
common.

Not everything that is German, i.e., not Low Saxon and not "outright"
Missingsch, is "Standard German," not even if you personally believe it is.
Yes, Standard German is a fairly lose construct that allows some regional
choices, but there are limits as to *Common* Standard German. *L?tt* is
listed in the Duden because it occurs in a lot of varieties and is thus
widely understood, though certainly not used in non-northern varieties. This
alone does not necessarily make it a regular part of *Common* Standard
German, though it may be common Northern German. Similarly, *wee* is not a
part of the *Common* Standard English lexicon, though it seems to be a part
of the Scottish and Northumbrian English lexicon. *Muckle* for 'big' or
'large' is less widely understood in English, is thus regionally more
restricted with regard to passive lexicon.

If *l**?tt* is a regular lexical item in your local casual German variety
and it is also a regular lexical item in your local Low Saxon variety, then
you are still dealing with two separate words in two separate languages,
strange though this may sound at first. No, you are *not* dealing with "the
same word," and the fact that they came from the same place, sounds alike
and are written alike does not make them one word. The two now have lives of
their own and, at least theoretically, may develop differently.

I hope this clarified it for you.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/2e3df92e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 21:25:11 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:25:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.132511.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  22 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Jonny, folks,

Sorry I'm having to chase a postscript after my response.

Jonny, you were asking about the German saying *Kinder mit 'nem Will'n,
kriegen was auf die Bill'n*.

Proverbs, sayings and idiomatic expressions are usually lexicalized as whole
entities. They are memorized just like individual words are. It doesn't
matter if they fully, partly or not at all consist of native words. (For
instance, *ad hoc*, *ad nauseam* and *Veni, vidi, vici* are entirely Latin
but are used by a large percentage of educated English speakers.) Unless *
Bill* (feminine *Bille* in other dialects) is used in your local German
dialect (to denote 'buttock' or something else), its occurrence in the
German saying *Kinder mit 'nem Will'n, kriegen was auf die Bill'n* is
foreign, occurring as a part of a lexicalized saying. (Its origin may be a
Low Saxon saying: **Kinner mit 'n Willn kriegt wat op de Billn*.)

(By the way, in my house it got distorted and *Brill'n* 'eye-glasses' was
used in this saying instead, which is another process altogether: choosing
the closest-sounding native word that makes at least a little bit of sense.)

If you do regularly use *Bill* in this way in your German variety (and I
don't in mine), it would be a native word, an it would be morphologically
treated in the German way: nom. *die/eine Bill(e)*, gen. *der/einer Bill(e)*,
dat. *der/einer Bill(e)*, acc. *die/eine Bill(e)* (provided it retains its
feminine gender); cf. Low Saxon *de/(ee)n(e) Bill(e)* in all cases**.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/e983be96/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 23 21:53:09 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:53:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.135309.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]

Hi folks,
In no way do I have the scientific capacity to cast any doubt
when Ron writes:
"So the name "Toronto" is an English name of Mohawk origin."
With my (completely unscientific) FEELING I cannot but side
with Gabriele: To me L?tjensee sounds as LS as can be.
I FEEL with her that a bilingual sign L?tjensee/L?ttensee
would be absurd. What I am saying is: The goal of this
action might want to be amended: Where the current HG
name is of LS origin, by no means do we need bilingual
signs.
To me whether Toronto is a Mohawk NAME or of Mohawk
ORIGIN is only  scientifically relevant. Ron is a scientist,
no quibbling with that.
Greetings to all, Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

In the German sentence *Die beste italienische K?che ist in Bologna* (The
best Italian cuisine is in Bologna) *Bologna* looks like an Italian name
because it was taken from Italian, just as *Florenz* (= Italian *Firenze*)
is a German name in the sentence *Die besten Galerien sind in Florenz* (The
best galleries are in Florence -- English "Florence" < French *Florence*).

"Vienna" is an English name, not an Italian one, when you use it in English,
although its origin is likely to be Italian *Vienna*.
*
*"Aix-la-Chapelle" and "Aachen" are two English names for the same German
city. They are not French and German, though of French and German origin.
Which of the two people use depends on their language variety.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/337b2639/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 00:59:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:59:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.165926.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.12 (04) [E]

Helge and all,
As someone who spent all his 9 high-school years in Rendsborg,
I want to thank you for your elucidating posting which I got aware
of only today, 12 days later.
Almost everything was new to me, all we were told in school was
to collect Bausteine (money) for the Deutschtum in Nord-Schleswig.
This was in the 50s....
Greetings, Mike Wintzer

This is what Helge wrote:
From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.11 (05) [E/LS/Danish/German]

Leve Lowlanders,

I think I also have to make a contribution to this little discussion because
my mother's family is one of those families which remained loyal to Denmark
although they always lived in Holsten just south of Rendsborg. Ethnically
they didn't feel etc.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/9088e850/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 01:00:42 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:00:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.NOV.2007.170042.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (06) [E]

> From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]
>
> Dear Sandy Fleming and rest of Lowlanders,
>
> And I agree with your saying:
>
>         Yes, but as soon as you overreact, you lose. They drop "dig"
>         from the
>         language, you drop "excavate". Either way, the language is
>         impoverished.
>
> I would just like to add another dimension to the discussion, mainly
> the esthetic. When writing a poem, or anything else, anyone would
> prefer to use a word like "zip" rather than "enthusiasm", "many"
> instead of "multitudinous", "good" for "beneficent", etc.

But surely not.

In poetry, one wants to be able to say "Love's Labour Lost", rather than
be constrained to "Love's Work Lost."

Or "Murder in the Cathedral" rather than "Getting Killed in the Big
Church"  :)

You can make either side of the fence sound silly by choosing a phrase
that English speakers would normally say on your favoured side and
showing how wrong it would sound if you said it on the other side. Thus
Paul's "walk in the hills" -> "perambulate in the elevated terrain"
going one way or my "Murder in the Cathedral" -> "Getting Killed in the
Big Church" going the other way. Choosing examples that suit you isn't a
good form of argument: people don't actually say it the silly way so
you've demonstrated nothing.

Well, OK, there are people with certain personal issues who do try to
use latinate English to make their everyday speech sound lofty, but it's
also bad to warp your meaning in trying to make yourself sound earthy.

The fact remains that either sort of word can be better than the other
sort, depending on exactly what you're trying to say, the impression you
want to give, or even the aesthetic.

(BTW, I would never say or write "zip" for "enthusiasm"! Nor are "good"
and "beneficent" synonymous. "Multitudinous" is one of these words where
a quite common (at least in the Bible!) word like "multitude" gets
stretched to breaking point, and is therefore perhaps a word to be
avoided as a rule. But careless extensions of Anglo-Saxon words can lead
to an increase in the misunderstandability of your speech or writing
too.)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071123/39f8b6bc/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 15:49:26 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:49:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.074926.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

"Aix-la-Chapelle" and "Aachen" are two English names for the same German
city. They are not French and German, though of French and German origin.
Which of the two people use depends on their language variety.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

So...just out of curiosity, what is the German name for Aachen?  I seem to
recall seeing that on road signs in Koeln, but I could be mistaken.

Paul Finlow-Bates (who also hadn't realised that "Aix-la-Chapelle" and
"Aachen" were the same place!!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

It's *Aachen*, Paul. It's *Aken *in Dutch and *Oche *in the local Ripuarian
dialects.

Apparently, in English there's now a tendency toward "Aachen".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/3fa16f2f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 15:51:40 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:51:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.24 (02) [D]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.075140.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (04) [E]

Beste Ron en alle anderen,
In Nederland is bil = de kake van je gat!
In Vlaanderen is bil = dij!
In ons dialect, het West-Vlaams klinkt het: de bille.
Als een visserskind zijn vader-visser wist de haven binnenvaren, riep het:
Ma, pa is binn
de karamiln
loopm van ze biln!
D.i. hij heeft een goede vangst gehad want de snoepjes lopen van zijn dijen!
Wat betreft l?tje enz. Het West-Vlaams kent voor "weinig"
l?tter (vgl. Nederlands luttel, Eng. Little).
't Is osan te vele of te l?tter = het is altijd te veel of te weinig!
Bovendien kennen we ook "e l?tsje" = een weinig.
'k Gon e l?tsje gon wangeln = ik ga wat wandelen.
Frans-Vlaanderen kent "a lietsje" = een beetje (vgl Deens "en lid"?).
Baid a lietsje = wacht een beetje (gehoord in Ekelsbeke, nu Esquelbecq)
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/b6488f22/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 24 15:55:08 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:55:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Sports" 2007.11.24 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.075508.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Friesche Schaats and Winter Sports"

For what it's worth, I found the following in a second-hand shop, though I
have yet to purchase them:
a pair of long-bladed strap-on skates, with the following company name and
such:

De beste Friesche Schaats
N.V. De Friesche Schaatsenfabricken
Heerenveen

As an ice-hockey goalie in a previous life (when I had a bit more money ;) I
recognized them as a form of racing skate, though definitely left behind in
sophistication by my Bauer racing skates.  I'm just wondering about their
history - it's obvious that being Friesche Schaats was some sort of selling
point.  And I haven't seen strap-on ice skates before - though strap-on
roller skates exist in distressing numbers. ;)

Does anyone know anything about this factory and this brand?

Thanks

Wesley Parish

On Saturday 24 November 2007 08:24, Lowlands-L List wrote:

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language politics
>
> Hi, Lowlanders!
>
<snip>
>
>    - "Praat mar Frysk!" says Coutzen Krous, one of l'Or?al's top models
>    currently living in New York City, the highest-paid model from the
>    Netherlands ever. She is stepping up as a spokesperson for the Frisian
>    language under motto of the Frisian Language Institute (Af?k). Her main
> aim seems to be to encourage people to use Frisian. If the media don't
edit
> out such exotic language activist outbursts, Coutzen's efforts might even
> tell people that Frisians aren't only cows. The international media
> certainly routinely ignore the Frisianness of Olympic gold medal winners
> from the Netherlands, probably as confusing trivia. Will a blond beauty
> icon succeed where others have failed?
>
<snip>
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/a53c8a94/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:39:09 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:39:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.24 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.203909.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.24 (02) [D]

Dear Lowlanders,



This post does not correspond to any current thread, but I was so impressed
last night by the last of three TV programs by Robert MacNeil, "Do you speak
American?" that I just had to mention it. It's about the major American
English dialects.



We missed the first two of the series, because when Daylight Savings
disappears every fall, good PBS programs often get too late for us old
timers. Last night covered the part of his around-the-US tour to assess
American English dialects, in the part from Los Angeles to Seattle. Had I
known how good they would be, I would have seen all of them.



Basically, he finds our dialects are alive and well and that the newest,
Californian, is growing regionally, as well as having already generalized in
America the use of words like "like" and "dude". The whole series is
summarized at:



http://www.pbs.org/speak/about/



http://www.pbs.org/speak/transcripts/



http://www.pbs.org/speak/about/guide/index.html#Table



Jorge Potter

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/646ac8ab/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:40:51 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:40:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Sports" 2007.11.24 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.204051.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Sports" 2007.11.24 (03) [E]

Oh, Oh, Wesley,

I hope you know what you're doing: showing interest
about wooden strap-on ice skates; and then you're
telling that you haven't seen such miracles before.
I'm sure some experts will tell more you about these
first-world-wonder-vehicles.

In my youth -on the local frozen streams- everybody
had strap-on ice skates...  except for some prudish
girls who were skating on so called ice-hockey-skates
[which they weren't of course] and these girls always
had pink shawls and paleblue bonnets.

A correction of the spelling: De Friesche
SchaatsenfabriEken.

In Heerenveen used to be the Batavus iceskate factory.
But Batavus nowadays only is known as a factory of
bicycles.

And to show you that this kind of iceskating is a
veeery serious part of life, have a look at:
http://www.iceskatesmuseum.com/museum-n/historie-8.htm

and:
http://www.schaatsenmuseum.nl/museum-n/abc-ned.schaatsen.htm

In any case you will understand the pictures.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/1e76342c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:42:05 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:42:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.204205.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]

Hi Mike,
> Hi folks,
> In no way do I have the scientific capacity to cast any doubt
> when Ron writes:
> "So the name "Toronto" is an English name of Mohawk origin."
> With my (completely unscientific) FEELING I cannot but side
> with Gabriele: To me L?tjensee sounds as LS as can be.
> I FEEL with her that a bilingual sign L?tjensee/L?ttensee
> would be absurd. What I am saying is: The goal of this
> action might want to be amended: Where the current HG
> name is of LS origin, by no means do we need bilingual
I disagree. The name L?tjensee has been fixed a long time ago. Please keep
in
mind that the Low Saxon language has changed over time. If the current usage
of the local people in Low Saxon has changed to L?ttensee, this should be
reflected in the new Low Saxon road signs. Therefore the only question that
remains to be solved is: what name do the local people use? From my personal
point of view this is plausible, to my knowledge "l?tt" is much more common
than "l?tj" nowadays. But I might err in this point and I live some
kilometers away from L?ttensee and they might prefer something other than I
do. Another example: Not from Stormarn: Oldenburg. Looks quite Low Saxon,
but
the usual form today for the second part is "borg" and not "burg" and the
first part usually loses the "d". So do we have to stick to Oldenburg, just
because one could argue that it is already platt? I do not think so. The
modern Low Saxon names should reflect modern language usage.

The new list is a real step forward:
1) To my knowledge it is the first time that such a comprehensive list of
Low
Saxon place names has been compiled and I know that the Fehrs-Gilde is
working on similar lists for other parts of Schleswig-Holstein, too.
2) The list has the backing of the local authorities, it is even published
on
their web site. This is of historic importance. The Landkreis Stormarn
officially supports bilingual roadsigns!!! Yeah!!!
3) For the first time there is some discussion about the place names. (Some
critical remarks about Bargteheide were reported in the Abendblatt.) That
means: so far, most people did not care much about LS place names. Now,
suddenly, they do care and where neccessary the list can be improved, and I
am sure, that it will be. Besides: most names seem to pass unchallenged,
even
here. So the work of the Fehrs-Gilde cannot be that bad.

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/b4e0b9cc/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:47:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:47:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.11.24 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.204731.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L"Idiomatica"

Dear Lowlanders,

Yesterday when I was waiting for the bus, I had some kind of a "Desperanto"
conversation with a Chinese lady about when the bus would come. She used the
term "three and nine or 3 and 9" for a quarter before and a quarter after
the hour.

My question is: Is this part of a Chinese idiomatic expression or is it in
true "Desperanto" fashion an attempt to visualise the situation. Maybe the
China hands amongst you can throw a light on the situation? Jacqueline

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/bb8d043c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 04:50:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:50:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.24 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.205031.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.23 (01) [E]

Paul wrote "But I'd still rather walk in the hills than perambulate in the
elevated terrain."

Trying to unpick prejudice is a long slow process: some decades ago it would
have been generally accepted that " perambulate in an elevated terrain" was
an indication of  the speaker's " higher (better) education" or "higher
thinking".

The classic example ( sorry about the pun) came from the Classics Society
some 20 years ago, who asked teachers to make a judgement between two boys,
who had been asked what they would do, if they were Chancellor for a day.
One replied: " Well I'd keep most of the laws but I'd get rid of some of
them." The other replied " I would abolish a minority of laws but would
retain the majority." Most of the teachers judged the latter boy 'more
intelligent' / 'better educated' than the former.  Yet in fact both boys are
thinking exactly the same thing and neither is cleverer than the other.

Then there was a swing ( in teaching at least) to avoid the latinisms /
classical English, and heap extra praise on those who spoke simple
straightforward language. And heap contempt on those who did use 'long
words'. I wonder if the above test were re-run now, what the reactions of
teachers would be.

I have tried all my career long to get teachers to understand that it is not
how one says something, but what one says that is important. That vocabulary
is accident of environment: you learn what you hear and it would be
extraordinary for the 5year old boy who on seeing someone coming through a
window said: What an unorthodox method of entry! if he were to say instead:
'ere wha' a funny way to come in. He is as likely to say it in Chinese or
Pidgin - because if that is not the language of his environment, he won't
know it to use it.

When it comes to languages changing or creating new words for new ideas or
objects, I sincerely believe that 'the grass roots will out'! Logie Baird
did not use the word television for his invention but that's how it is known
worldwide . Who gave the Germans 'Handy' for a mobile ( and what other terms
have become accepted elsewhere for this new invention?) The French Govt has
tried for years to stop / discourage the use of weekend/ hamburger/ jeans
etc etc to no avail.

People will use what people will use and it is nigh impossible to legislate
for or against anything to be imposed ( unless you make it a condition of
employment - then necessity beckons)

But even in these situations , the grass roots version of the language will
start to be more creative and inventive than the language tsars officially
tolerate. And long may that be!

Heather

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/b79e498d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 05:10:54 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:10:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.24 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.NOV.2007.211054.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 09
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (01) [E]

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.23 (05) [E]


So...just out of curiosity, what is the German name for Aachen?  I seem to
recall seeing that on road signs in Koeln, but I could be mistaken.

Paul Finlow-Bates (who also hadn't realised that "Aix-la-Chapelle" and
"Aachen" were the same place!!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

It's *Aachen*, Paul. It's *Aken *in Dutch and *Oche *in the local Ripuarian
dialects.

Apparently, in English there's now a tendency toward "Aachen".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
 *********************************************************************
Thanks Reinhard;

Now all I have to do is find out more about the local Ripuarian dialects.
It's a maze, this language business; every answer creates 10 more questions.

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Paul!

Please check the following to start with:

Ripuarian generally:

   - Wikipedia - English:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarian_%28language%29
   - Wikipedia - German:
   http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarische_Dialektgruppe
   - Wikipedia - Cologne Ripurarian:
   http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripoar%C4%97sch_%28Shprooch%29

Aachen Ripuarian (*?cher Platt*):

   - Wikipedia - English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96cher_Platt
   - Wikipedia - German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96cher_Platt
   - Wikipedia - Cologne Ripuarian:
   http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96cher_Platt
   - The language association: http://www.oecher-platt.de/

The book-CD package *Tuur d?rch Oche | Tour durch Aachen | Tour of Aachen |
Tour d'Aix-la-Chapelle* comes in Ripuarian, Standard German, English and
French: http://www.oecher-platt.de/frmset_01.htm

The most widely know Ripuarian dialect may be that of Cologne.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071124/a8aac228/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 17:08:53 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:08:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.090853.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (06) [E]

Heiko wrote:
>I disagree. The name L?tjensee has been fixed a long time ago. Please keep
in
>mind that the Low Saxon language has changed over time. If the current
usage
>of the local people in Low Saxon has changed to L?ttensee, this should be
>reflected in the new Low Saxon road signs.

Why would Lower Saxon road signs be needed in the first place? The natives
know what to call their village all right - isn't that enough? This is also
true for other areas of Germany - natives of Fulda call the town "Fol",
natives of M?nchen (Munich) call it "Menga"; K?ln (Cologne) is "K?lle",
Kaiserslautern is "Lautere" - no matter what the signs say. Any non-native
who is interested in speaking the local dialect or language will learn that,
too. Why should it be of any interest to others?

This is Germany, not Wales, where the two languages used are truly separate
and names for the same place can be very differnt. Between High German and
Low Saxon, it is usually just a matter of pronunciation, I don't know a
single case where two completely different names are used. And changing one
letter, as in "L?tjensee/L?ttensee" is plain stupid and will earn the
concept of Lower Saxon as a separate language less respect, not more.

Where I live, this would mean changing the ending -hausen to -husen in many
names and then putting up both on a sign, which I consider utterly pointless
(and so do all the older, Platt-speaking people around here that I asked
about it).

Gabriele Kahn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/48c9cea2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 17:12:11 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:12:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.25 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.091211.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.24 (09) [E]

 > From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
> .... book-CD package *Tuur d?rch Oche | Tour durch Aachen | Tour of Aachen
| Tour d'Aix-la-Chapelle* comes in Ripuarian, Standard German, English and
French: http://www.oecher-platt.de/frmset_01.htm
Some additional resources:

*Dictionaries*:

- Prof. Dr. Will Hermanns, *Aachener Sprachschatz*, Verlag J.A. Mayer,
Aachen,
1970, 7th reprint 1991, LII + 596 pp., clothbound, ?cher-German *only*, over
2 cols/page.

- *Aachener Dialekt-Wortschatz*:
?cher Platt - Hochdeutsch und
Hochdeutsch - ?cher Platt
?cher Platt e.V., 2000, pages not numbered (about 450 pages I guess (2
cols/page), must also exist as CD-ROM.
Very short lemmas.

*Grammar*:

- Adolf Steins, *Grammatik des Aachener Dialekts*,
1998, B?hlau Verlag, K?ln,  (Reinisches Archiv 141), 242 pp.

There is published quite a lot of literature (mostly short stories
bundled) in book form and on CD (including songs by/for kids). During
carnaval you will find a lot of this stuff all over town.

You may find some stuff at:
http://www.mayersche.de/
Their multi-store bookshop in the Buchkremerstrasse
http://www.mayersche.de/index.php?id=aachen-buchkremerstr
has a large stock. I suggest you start at the back of the ground floor
(shelves with regional stuff)

> The most widely know Ripuarian dialect may be that of Cologne.

Centainly, but there are dictionaries and other publications in/about almost
every municipal dialect. They are however often hard to find, since they are
published locally, often only to preregistered buyers. You may find some of
them in antiquiarian bookshops.

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/bece4916/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 19:18:29 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:18:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.111829.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (01) [E]

Hi Gabriele,
> Why would Lower Saxon road signs be needed in the first place? The natives
> know what to call their village all right - isn't that enough?
> This is also
> true for other areas of Germany - natives of Fulda call the town "Fol",
> natives of M?nchen (Munich) call it "Menga"; K?ln (Cologne) is "K?lle",
> Kaiserslautern is "Lautere" - no matter what the signs say. Any non-native
> who is interested in speaking the local dialect or language will learn
> that, too. Why should it be of any interest to others?
Well, you are free to think that these road signs are superfluous. I think
they are neccessary. Low Saxon has official recognition as a regional
language and according to the European Language Charter article 10 2 g the
place names in these regional languages enjoy official protection from
Brussels. And I am no longer willing to discuss whether or not to put up
these bilingual road signs. What the Fehrs-Gilde and I and several other
people in North Germany demand is simply that these obligations will be
fulfilled.
(The charter can be found in
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/148.htm)

> This is Germany, not Wales, where the two languages used are truly
separate
> and names for the same place can be very differnt. Between High German and
> Low Saxon, it is usually just a matter of pronunciation, I don't know a
> single case where two completely different names are used. And changing
one
> letter, as in "L?tjensee/L?ttensee" is plain stupid and will earn the
> concept of Lower Saxon as a separate language less respect, not more.
Even if the difference is only one letter, the Low Saxon "subtitle" serves
an
important purpose: it makes the LS language visible and it shows that there
is official recognition for this language. It shows clearly to everyone who
enters the village that LS is not just the dialect of dumb and uneducated
people, but that it is a real language with its own rights.

> Where I live, this would mean changing the ending -hausen to -husen in
many
> names and then putting up both on a sign, which I consider utterly
> pointless (and so do all the older, Platt-speaking people around here that
> I asked about it).
Well, Gabriele, you are free to think so. But as long as there are people
who
want these road signs (which obviously is the case), this does not count
much. Bilingual road signs are a right for those who want them. If there is
a
majority against these, this does not count as majority wishes do not count
when it comes to the protection of minorities.

Hartlich Gr?ten,

Heiko Evermann
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/cf25146d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 19:53:48 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:53:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.115348.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (03) [E]

Heiko wrote:
> Where I live, this would mean changing the ending -hausen to -husen in
many
> names and then putting up both on a sign, which I consider utterly
> pointless (and so do all the older, Platt-speaking people around here that

> I asked about it).
Well, Gabriele, you are free to think so. But as long as there are people
who
want these road signs (which obviously is the case), this does not count
much. Bilingual road signs are a right for those who want them. If there is
a
majority against these, this does not count as majority wishes do not count
when it comes to the protection of minorities.

I see... again, it all boils down to some people cramming their political
agendas down the throats of those who would rather get on with their
lives...

Just think of what those stupid signs would cost, and what else could be
done with the money and natural resources.

Where I live, several villages have put up their own wooden signs, with the
name of the place and a greeting in Lower Saxon (OUR local variety and
spelling, not what some non-local activists would have us use). We don't
need bureaucrats to tell us how to handle this. It's all about power in the
end, isn't it?

So when the majority of people who actually speak Lower Saxon (which appears
to be the minority we are talking about) think that those "official" signs
are rubbish, they no longer count as a minority, and those few people who
think it is a good idea should have their way simply because there's fewer
of them?

Actually, people around here are very actively keeping their language alive
these days. All by themselves, and with no guidance from those who would
like to be seen as "saviours" of the language. And they do it for love, not
power.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (01) [E]

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (06) [E]

.....The natives know what to call their village all right - isn't that
enough?
......Between High German and Low Saxon, it is usually just a matter of
pronunciation, I don't know a single case where two completely different
names are used.

Gabriele Kahn

And if Germany is anything at all like England, whatever an outsider says
will be wrong anyway, and will be gleefully corrected! Re-spelling Kibworth
as "Kibbuth", Haltcliff as "Oockly" and Uttoxeter as "Utticka" would not
only confuse outsiders, it would spoil the locals' fun.

Paul Finlow-Bates

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/bb73ebbd/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 20:11:02 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:11:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.121102.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.25 (02) [E]

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.24 (09) [E]

Roger and Reinhard,
Thanks for the info on the Rhine area speech, always interesting to hear the
variety that's out there.  They obviously don't use it with foreigners
though, everyone I spoke to in Cologne and surrounds (Bergische Land) seemed
to use Standard German, so I naturally assumed that was what they spoke.
Germany, and much of Europe, seems much more bilingual in that respect than
England.  People with regional accents and dialects make little attempt to
"standardise" for foreigners, and virtually none at all for other Britons.

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Paul!

People don't use anything but Standard German with outsiders if they can
help it, or they will use the outsider's language if they know it.

To some degree this applies in England also (substitute "English" for
"German"), though there will always be "accents." However, unlike in
Britain, speaking non-standard language has not yet received the general nod
of approval. The results of indoctrination of the ideal of "one country -
one ethnicity - one language" have a long way to go on their way out,
especially with regard to languages that are obviously related to German.
This indoctrination has affected native speakers and their descendants as
much as those that grew up with German only. This is not going to go away
terribly quickly, especially in more conservative-dominated communities that
have a culture of rejecting change (*any* change) because to them "change"
is synonymous with "outsiders' meddling." So if you ask people to speak to
you in their local language, many will find this very strange, because they
have come to believe that their language is private and improper, that you
as an outsider should not be involved in it. When a foreigner, especially an
"exotic-looking" one, speaks "dialect," many people will point this out as
an amusing anomaly.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/f8ba0a26/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 22:35:41 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:35:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.143541.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]

Paul wrote:
>And if Germany is anything at all like England, whatever an outsider says
will be wrong anyway, and will be gleefully >corrected! Re-spelling Kibworth
as "Kibbuth", Haltcliff as "Oockly" and Uttoxeter as "Utticka" would not
only >confuse outsiders, it would spoil the locals' fun.

This is not only true for "old" cultures - just try talking to people from
Lebanon, Oregon! They will always tell you you pronounce it wrong, no matter
which way you try... ;-)

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]

Paul wrote:
>And if Germany is anything at all like England, whatever an outsider says
will be wrong anyway, and will be gleefully >corrected! Re-spelling Kibworth
as "Kibbuth", Haltcliff as "Oockly" and Uttoxeter as "Utticka" would not
only >confuse outsiders, it would spoil the locals' fun.

This is not only true for "old" cultures - just try talking to people from
Lebanon, Oregon! They will always tell you you pronounce it wrong, no matter
which way you try... ;-)

Gabriele Kahn

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/d3f173eb/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 25 22:45:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:45:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.144555.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:
> To some degree this applies in England also (substitute "English" for
> "German"), though there will always be "accents." However, unlike in
> Britain, speaking non-standard language has not yet received the
> general nod of approval.

The general nod of approval in the UK? This makes me wonder what kind of
English, British teachers use in school.

Standard or not???

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Luc!

As far as I know -- and our British friends no doubt will correct me if I'm
wrong -- the educational system in British was tweaked quite some time ago
to be more tolerant with regard to local and regional language varieties. In
other words, teachers no longer correct students (pupils) at every turn but
permit use of local varieties. You will notice that even media reporters'
language comes in quite some variety, as does the English of people
interviewed, why, even that of members of the House of Commons. You are not
necessarily considered poorly educated by everyone if you don't speak
"posh," and not speaking "posh" may even allow you to win more hearts. You
may have noticed (even though you may be too young) that class distinctions
and stigmas are melting away in Britain, and the more relaxed linguistic
atmosphere may well be one of the signs of this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/6afb0104/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 26 06:10:31 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:10:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.NOV.2007.221031.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From:  Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]

About the road signs.

In Belgium we are faced with a trilingual situation
(Dutch/French/German) for the offici?l languages.
*(I forget momentarily the regional languages, although in several
municipalities they are used for a second caption on street name plates,
often not a translation but the local version, often refering to an older
variant).*

We are used to double naming especially Dutch/French in the Brussels area,
and it is not uncommon to see:
Sch*aa*rbeek / Sch*ae*rbeek
or Scha*a/e*rbeek (with a little a above a little e or vice-versa)

It looks silly to foreigners but it is a consequence of an official
equivalence of languages.
I guess in Canada you will find similar things (I presume with a reduced
letter size for the English version in Quebec).

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071125/1c885505/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 26 17:27:45 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:27:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.NOV.2007.092745.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  26 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (07) [E]

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:
> To some degree this applies in England also (substitute "English" for
> "German"), though there will always be "accents." However, unlike in
> Britain, speaking non-standard language has not yet received the
> general nod of approval.

The general nod of approval in the UK? This makes me wonder what kind of
English, British teachers use in school.

Standard or not???

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Luc!

As far as I know -- and our British friends no doubt will correct me if I'm
wrong -- the educational system in British was tweaked quite some time ago
to be more tolerant with regard to local and regional language varieties. In
other words, teachers no longer correct students (pupils) at every turn but
permit use of local varieties. You will notice that even media reporters'
language comes in quite some variety, as does the English of people
interviewed, why, even that of members of the House of Commons. You are not
necessarily considered poorly educated by everyone if you don't speak
"posh," and not speaking "posh" may even allow you to win more hearts. You
may have noticed (even though you may be too young) that class distinctions
and stigmas are melting away in Britain, and the more relaxed linguistic
atmosphere may well be one of the signs of this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

BBC journalist David Dimbleby, in a recent program about landscape painting,
dug out some old footage of himself and friends rock-climbing in the Lake
District in the 1950's, with his voice-over.  He mocked his own accent of
that time, the accepted BBC nasal "upper class", which almost nobody speaks
anymore.  The Queen herself speaks completely differently from the time of
the Coronation.  The most notable thing is the "a" sound in words such as *
hat* or *cat*, which "Upper Class" people once pronounced *het* and *cet*.
The vowel has moved back to the Northern position. Ironically the sound was
shared with "Lower Class" Cockneys and Londoners in general - who largely
retain it, along with most Australians and New Zealanders.

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Paul.

I have noticed marked changes in the ways the Queen and several of her
family members speak. Old footage is indeed a great way of being reminded of
it. There seem to have been several phases or stages. (Remember the "pound"
[p_haMnd] or [p_haInd] phases?) This makes me wonder if this is a case of
"natural" evolution or of periodic coaching.

Aside from, or rather concurrent with the relaxation in education, there
have been the influences of the media in which plays feature "real"
varieties of "real" people from all over the country. I'm sure this has been
removing quite a few prejudices and inhibitions, and more people may have
begun to actually appreciate this type of diversity as interesting and
enriching.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071126/2fcc30d3/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 26 17:42:50 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:42:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.NOV.2007.094250.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (05) [E]

Maybe the Belgian situation (not having a "one country - one ethnicity - one
language") makes that belgian people usually still retain a lot of their
accent when speaking with outsiders? Generally one does not use his/her
dialect with everyone, but still noone really does his best to talk
'standard language', not even with 'Northerners'. [Or otherwise we're just
not able to speak 'well' dutch. But still, the degree of adapting oneself to
the outsider seems to be a lot lower than in Germany]

Diederik

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Paul!

People don't use anything but Standard German with outsiders if they can
help it, or they will use the outsider's language if they know it.

To some degree this applies in England also (substitute "English" for
"German"), though there will always be "accents." However, unlike in
Britain, speaking non-standard language has not yet received the general nod
of approval. The results of indoctrination of the ideal of "one country -
one ethnicity - one language" have a long way to go on their way out,
especially with regard to languages that are obviously related to German.
This indoctrination has affected native speakers and their descendants as
much as those that grew up with German only. This is not going to go away
terribly quickly, especially in more conservative-dominated communities that
have a culture of rejecting change ( *any* change) because to them "change"
is synonymous with "outsiders' meddling." So if you ask people to speak to
you in their local language, many will find this very strange, because they
have come to believe that their language is private and improper, that you
as an outsider should not be involved in it. When a foreigner, especially an
"exotic-looking" one, speaks "dialect," many people will point this out as
an amusing anomaly.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071126/042fb401/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 15:33:35 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:33:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.073335.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.26 (02) [E]

That is very true in Ireland, where northerners will emphasise their accent
and use dialectal words when dealing with Southerners. The reverse is true
with the Gammon of the Irish Traveller population. As with most Romany and
romanyesque populations, they speak common english with the common accent to
the outsiders - you and me - and revert to their own dialect with
corresponding strong accent among their own.

Tomas

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/b3ffe646/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 15:45:11 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:45:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.27 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.074511.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.24 (06) [E]

Lists could be compiled of placemnames in the British Isles (*Celtic Isles*!!!
*:-)*) on a sililar format.

Waterford and Wexford are two to start with, as is Limerick, all from Viking
Danish. The first is easy, Vadre Fjord, I can remember the second and thrid
meanings. Maybe on www.wikipedia.org?

This project could be uploaded to the Wikipedias to spread references. Maybe
Ron would set up such a profile?

Tomas O Carthaigh

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Tom!

I'm not sure I'm catching your meaning. Do what with what?

The Old Norse version of names of larger places are already mentioned in the
Wikipedia; e.g., Waterford < Ve?rafj?r?r "Windy Inlet", Wexford < *
Veisafj?r?r* "Mudflat Inlet". Do you mean the origin of names of smaller
places such as Foxford, Freshford and Coachford?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/03a5e6af/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 15:46:45 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:46:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.074645.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Resources

 Axell Red, a famous singer of French songs, cf.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axelle_Red
(shortened in English:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axelle_Red)
will bring a song in Limburgish from Hasselt (actually her mother language).

quoting from the hbvl.be website:

27/11 Axelle red en Fixkes in dialect-duet

In het kader van Music for Life komt er een single uit die het resultaat is
van een verrassende samenwerking: *Axelle Red* zingt samen met *Fixkes*.
Axelle voor een keer niet in het Frans, maar in onvervalst *Hasselts* en
Fixkes in het *Stabroeks.*

Het nummer werd vorige week opgenomen en zal op Studio Brussel in premi?re
gaan in De Grote Peter Van de Veire Ochtendshow.

Later deze week toont De Rode Loper beelden van de opname. De Ultratop houdt
zich klaar.

end quote.

It will be a mix of Brabantish of Stabroek and Limburgish from Hasselt.

Regards,
Roger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/af0a7bb2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 20:41:55 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:41:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.124155.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.27 (02) [E]

I think there is a big difference though, in the former case they are
talking about local names still in use in the local dialect, and Viking
Danish sure is not spoken so frequently anymore on any of the British
Isles:)
For schlarly purposes of course, it still could be interesting. But
bilingual (Irish/English) road signs are already enough imho;)

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (04) [E]

> From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.25 (03) [E]
>
> Just think of what those stupid signs would cost, and what else could
> be done with the money and natural resources.

But didn't Heiko address this issue in detail already?

> So when the majority of people who actually speak Lower Saxon (which
> appears to be the minority we are talking about) think that those
> "official" signs are rubbish, they no longer count as a minority, and
> those few people who think it is a good idea should have their way
> simply because there's fewer of them?

We know from the past and sometimes unfortunately the present, that
minorities are always in danger of being oppressed by the majority.

No, people shouldn't have their way simply because there's fewer of
them, but neither should they be denied their wishes simply because
there's fewer of them.

You may think that the minority is doing fine now, but what happens when
times change? Official recognition is a safeguard against changing
attitudes. For example, people put up their own wooden signs, as you
say. But what if officials decide that wooden signs have to be taken
down? The presence of official signs in the minority language guards
against this.

Then again, the attitude of the people may change. In 2020 perhaps the
upcoming generation decides that wooden signs was something quaint their
parents did, and they melt away without anyone really noticing. Does it
mean that this generation cares less about the language? Not
necessarily, and then again maybe they would have cared more if the form
of the signage hadn't given them the wrong message: that the language
doesn't matter to anybody but the villagers.

Not everyone in a minority has either the time, money, education or
determination to do anything about a given situation, so we have to have
activists. Yes, activists are often wrong, but not always and not about
everything. Besides, there are different kinds of activists all playing
different parts, and when it all comes together the results are
generally much preferable to what we'd have if everybody had just got on
with their own lives. Welsh language signage and education are the
products of activism, not Welsh speakers "just getting on with their
lives". The large body of 20th century literature in Scots is the
product of activism on a different level, from the few hundred writers
and their few thousand readers, not the two million who speak the
language every day.

It's worth remembering that the signage issue isn't just about signage,
it's part of everything else that people who care enough about the
language to put time and effort into it are trying to achieve. If a
language has official signage in plain view it makes more sense to more
people to write it, learn it or teach it because they see every day the
concrete evidence that it's officially supported. They don't have to be
reminded about the laws governing their language rights, they don't have
to be convinced that they actually apply to real life, they can see them
in action right in front of their faces.

Would a sign saying "Aberdeen / Aiberdeen" help us to find the place
more easily if we speak mainly Scots? No, because every Scots speaker
knows "Aberdeen" as well. But a sign like that would carry another
message that's not so obvious, about the language itself. And this
message would be everywhere.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/d028ae2b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 20:43:17 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:43:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "esources" 2007.11.27 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.124317.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (03) [D/E]

Nice! Although overly hyped, I really enjoy the Fixkes from time... but
their musical style is quite different from Axelle Red?
As a sidemark, coming from the village next to Stabroek (where they come
from ergo), I have to say they don't sing in dialect, but of course they
talk like a lot of people over here talk. But it's just the local version of
the "Schoon Vlaams".

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/55062302/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 23:21:05 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:21:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" 2007.11.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.152105.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  26 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (07) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Hi, Luc!
>
> As far as I know -- and our British friends no doubt will correct me
> if I'm wrong -- the educational system in British was tweaked quite
> some time ago to be more tolerant with regard to local and regional
> language varieties. In other words, teachers no longer correct
> students (pupils) at every turn but permit use of local varieties. You
> will notice that even media reporters' language comes in quite some
> variety, as does the English of people interviewed, why, even that of
> members of the House of Commons. You are not necessarily considered
> poorly educated by everyone if you don't speak "posh," and not
> speaking "posh" may even allow you to win more hearts. You may have
> noticed (even though you may be too young) that class distinctions and
> stigmas are melting away in Britain, and the more relaxed linguistic
> atmosphere may well be one of the signs of this.

No, I wouldn't correct you on this. It's certainly true that no-one here
would be bothered about the accent or dialect someone speaks in,
including Scottish and British-Asian dialects, as long as it's
comprehensible. Nor would they be bothered about it being
incomprehensible (eg Welsh, Scots, Somerset) as long as they're not
expected to understand it.

One no longer hears scolding about dropped "h"s, th->f/v or anything
like that. The only people I've heard complaining about it recently have
all been visitors to the country or recent immigrants. If a British
person reacted in this way to an accent, I'd prpobably try to connect it
to personality traits (irritability or something) rather than the idea
that people should speak in a certain way.

This needs to be qualified with the fact that my perception of the
oral-linguistic ambience is somewhat rarefied, but on the other hand,
being deaf, people often do describe other people's accents to me, and I
can lipread accents to some extent, so it's not all that rarefied.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.25 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> local language, many will find this very strange, because they have
> come to believe that their language is private and improper, that you
> as an outsider should not be involved in it. When a foreigner,
> especially an "exotic-looking" one, speaks "dialect," many people will
> point this out as an amusing anomaly.

It's certainly true that there's a tradition of Scots speakers having a
healthy interest in foreigners, or "exotic-looking" Scots, being
involved in speaking Scots or participating in Scots culture in general.

An example from WWII is in George MacDonald Fraser's "McAuslan" series
of books where there's a story about a Black soldier in a Scottish
regiment who joins the pipe band. To people of 60 years ago this looked
very odd and raised serious questions but the eventual conclusion was
that he was a good piper and that was what mattered.

In the village where I grew up we had one Black man, who spoke Scots
exactly like us and was an Elder of the kirk (which may have been an
early example of positive discrimination, or not). To me this made a
lasting impression that Black people are just like me and scientifically
(as opposed to politically) speaking, there's no such thing as a Black
accent or language or White accent or language, everybody is the same in
this respect.

In the 1960s/70s TV series "Dad's Army" there's an episode where the
Scottish member of the group is ranting about the fact that the English
captain will regret trying to preside over the haggis at a celebratory
dinner. In the end it turns out that the Englishman could play the
bagpipes, which I remember amusing us tremendously: of course English
people can play the pipes, if they learn it!

In the 70's or 80's I remember a popular clip on Scottish TV of a young
boy singing "Auld Lang Syne" in perfect Scots. The camera starts at his
feet and moves up past his socks, flashers, kilt and jacket, and finally
his face is seen and he's Chinese. Not necessarily foreign, of course.

One of the really big Scottish events of the year is the Edinburgh
Tattoo, which is watched avidly by traditional Scots all over the
country when it's shown on TV. Although based around the idea of
Scottish regimental piping traditions, it's full of guest bands from
many other countries showing how this sort of thing is done more "exotic
looking" people than us plain-faced Scots  :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Sandy.

When I was a kid, two of our local Lutheran churches were involved in an
international pastoral exchange program. One of the churches had a visiting
pastor from Ghana for about one year, a native speaker of Twi. The other
church had a youngish pastor and his family from Hong Kong, Cantonese
speakers, for quite a long time, at least three years, I'd say. Already upon
arrival both pastors were quite conversant in German and were able to
conduct services and deliver sermons in German. Apparently they had attended
German seminaries. The one from Hong Kong, being rather gregarious, picked
up some Low Saxon. I have a feeling he did this as an extra effort to break
through the remaining ice. The one from Ghana also picked up some local
expressions with which he'd occasionally startle and amuse folks. However,
the novelty and amusement factors soon wore off.

I remember that some oldies found these visitations rather strange at first,
but I think it was just the novelty of the idea of "missionaries in
reverse," if you get my drift. However, it took both pastors very little
time to win over lots of hearts. I suspect that their linguistic efforts
played at least minor roles.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/dce65f53/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 27 23:22:24 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:22:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.NOV.2007.152224.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  27 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (03) [D/E]

Nice! Although overly hyped, I really enjoy the Fixkes from time... but
their musical style is quite different from Axelle Red?
As a sidemark, coming from the village next to Stabroek (where they come
from ergo), I have to say they don't sing in dialect, but of course they
talk like a lot of people over here talk. But it's just the local version of
the "Schoon Vlaams".

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071127/4e46de9b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 15:15:28 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:15:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.071528.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "esources" 2007.11.27 (05) [E]

Hi all,

I think E-sources is rather well suited to our circumstances?

Elsie Zinsser

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.27 (03) [D/E]

Nice! Although overly hyped, I really enjoy the Fixkes from time... but
their musical style is quite different from Axelle Red?
As a sidemark, coming from the village next to Stabroek (where they come
from ergo), I have to say they don't sing in dialect, but of course they
talk like a lot of people over here talk. But it's just the local version of
the "Schoon Vlaams".

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

I suppose so, Elsie. Perhaps it was the clever Kahuna taking over while I
was dozing off.

Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/d294b21e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 15:41:21 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:41:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.074121.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  26 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" 2007.11.27 (06) [E]

Sandy wrote: "One of the really big Scottish events of the year is the
Edinburgh
Tattoo, which is watched avidly by traditional Scots all over the
country when it's shown on TV."

Just a few weeks ago I had the pleasure to attend a Scottish Tattoo in
Salado, Texas.  Salado sits just up the road (north) from Austin on I-35.
 Every year they have a Scottish clan gathering in Salado.  My wife and I
have been a couple of times, but this year was our first time to see a
tattoo.  Two pipe and drum corps played.  I really enjoyed it.  In fact, I
took a few photos.  One of them I put on a photo web site.  Perhaps, y'all
would like to see it:
http://www.picable.com/People/Men/The-Perennial-Bagpiper.57617.  The tattoo
took place in the ruins of an old school (Salado College) built out of
limestone.  One of the columns still stands and the lights cast a perfect
shadow of a bagpiper.  I was lucky enough to see it and snap a photo.

Of course, I immediately wanted to know where the word "tattoo" came from.
I checked it on Google and found a reference to a time when Scottish troops
were stationed in the Netherlands.  Allegedly, every night the pipe and drum
corps would march through town to tell the bars when to "doe den tap toe."
At least, that's what I remember reading.  Does anyone know if that story is
accurate?

Mark Brooks
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Mark!

My first reaction was "What?!" And then I found that the *Oxford English
Dictionary* agrees with it and it all starts making sense:

[In 17th c. *tap-too*, a. Du. *taptoe* in same sense; f. *tap* the tap (of a
cask), + *toe* = *doe toe* 'shut'. So Sw. *tapto*, Sp. (1706) *tatu*. Cf.
Ger. *zapfenstreich*, LG. *tappenslag*, Da. *tappenstreg*, with the first
element the same, and second element meaning 'stroke, beat'.
  Although Du. *tap toe* was in military use in our sense 1 in the 17th c.,
there is reason to doubt if this was its original use. *Tap toe* = *doe den
tap toe* 'put the tap to', 'close or turn off the tap', was app. already in
colloquial use for 'shut up! stop! cease!'; Dr. Kluyver points out, in a
play of 1639 from Emden, *Doch hier de tap van toe* = 'but here we shut up',
or 'say no more'.]

How Lowlands is that? What a blast! (Pun intended?)

So it must be Dutch in origin because of the *toe* [tu(:)] ('to' >) 'shut',
versus Low Saxon *to(u)* [toU] ('to' >) 'shut'.

Apart from having tattoos at various regional highland games in the States,
many of us here also get to watch recordings of the Edinburgh Tattoo on TV.

And that's unrelated to all the body art that is going on around here.

[In 18th c. *tattaow*, *tattow* (ta'ta?), a. Polynesian (Tahitian, Samoan,
Tongan, etc.) *[image: {sm}]tatau* (in Marquesan *[image: {sm}]tatu*) n.
denoting the markings. (For the vb. the expression is *ta [image: {sm}]tatau
* to strike or stamp tattoo.)
The word is recorded from Tahiti as *tataou* in Bougainville's *Voyage
autour du Monde* 1766-9 (Paris 1771), and as *tattow* in Capt. Cook's *First
Voyage* July 1769. The current Eng. *tattoo* and F. *tatou* are perversions
of the native name.]

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/37df093e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 18:40:25 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:40:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.104025.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]

Beste Ron, Mark en allen,
In verband met "taptoe" lees ik in het Etymologisch Woordenboek van Prof. J.
Vercoullie (een Oostendenaar!), 1925, op blz. 344:
taptoe v.: vergel. Ndd.  tappenslag, Zw. tappeni!gen, Hgd. zapfenstreich. De
betek. is wel doet den tap toe (zoo ook slag op den tap om hem toe te doen),
namelijk in de herbergen, als men moet ophouden drank te bestellen. uit het
Ndl. komt De., Zw. tapto, Eng. tattoo.
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen.

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]

Hi Mark and Ron. That was quite an eye opener. I had no idea that "taptoe",
the melody that to this day is played at lights out in Military and Boy
Scout circles had that meaning.

But it is logical. Fun!!! Jacqueline

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/4646a2dd/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 18:38:22 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:38:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varietes" 2007.11.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.103822.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: "ds" <dstokely at infionline.net>
Subject: language varieties

I have to add a little experience I had here.  When I was a young lad (way
back in the last century, I know), my father took me south to Georgia where
he was born.  We were sitting in the train station and I heard a loud
mouthed black man talking behind me.  I looked back and didn't see him.
Again, I heard that same black man speaking and turned around.  A careful
search revealed a WHITE MAN speaking black English!  I had an epiphany.  The
blacks I had heard all my life were speaking with a southern accent.

David Stokely

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, David.

I had a similar experience once in an airport when I heard people talk in
West Indian English somewhere in my vicinity. When I finally located the
speakers I saw two European faces and one East Asian face. Then I thought,
"Duh! Of course! Why not?" and I realized that our conditioned mental
associations between language sounds and people's looks have to change with
all those changes we are now witnessing. Of course this includes
"White-talking Blacks" and "Black-talking Whites" in the northern states.

Also, I once met an ethnic Russian with a Chinese accent. Turned out she
belonged to the small Russian minority of China and had learned English from
Chinese teachers at school, which accounts for her having a Chinese accent
rather than a Russian one, although her first language was Russian.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/195bcc49/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 20:47:49 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:47:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2007.11.28 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.124749.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2007.10.20 (05) [E]

Apropos Middel-Saxon...

Dear Lowlanders,

it's a very playful and amusing way to know the richness and the
multiple possibilities in word formation of the Hanseatic Saxon by
proofreading a Middelsaxon Dictionary! I have joint already after
Heiko's plea (s.b.) the Gutenberg Distributed Proofreading Project
(www.pgdp.net/c/faq/ProoferFAQ.php) for proofreading the

Middel Low German Dictionary by August Luebben

The enjoyable work has well startet running. But we are just a
handful people yet, and it would be a pity if the project would long
too much, meanwhile letting the world still without the possibilities
of an electronic, searchable version of the Middel Saxon Dictionary!

To leverage your participation in this regalement I solicit to-day
again to join this proofreading from my side, too! (Some knowledge of
Standard German would be advantageous but not necessary.) - Project
side:

http://www.pgdp.net/c/project.php?id=projectID4713e85485352

Sign in (or register first) and start proofreading with us. And
believe me:

Dat is eyne wane g?de w?se, den r?kdom unde de v?lfoldicheyt der
sasseschen spraken beter to kennen unde tor eygen nutsamicheyt to
hebben!

G?tg?n!
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries

> L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 October 2007 - Volume 04==================
>
> From: "Heiko Evermann" <Heiko.Evermann at gmx.de>
>
> [...]
>
> The dictionary contains about 600 pages each with about 60 entries.
> That is
>
> 36.000 words. That is much more than in the modern Low Saxon
> dictionaries,
>
> e.g. the "Sass" has about 10.000. Isn't it funny how many words
> these people
>
> had in their Low Saxon in those times?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/b2cc9e95/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 20:55:27 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:55:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Contest" 2007.11.28 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.125527.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Contest

Dear Lowlanders,

*Hear ye! Hear ye! Calling all poets, composers and performers!*

Please let me remind you that there is just about one month left before your
expectedly voluminous submission to our song contest must be submitted.

   - Introduction: http://www.lowlands-l.net/contest/
   - Instructions: http://www.lowlands-l.net/contest/instructions.php
   - Entry form: http://www.lowlands-l.net/contest/form.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/eafa3ff4/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 22:00:47 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:00:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.28 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.140047.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 07
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L: Lexikon

Moin tosamen,

noch een Fraag ut de plattd??tsche Wikipedia:
gifft dat en plattd??tsch Woort f?r den "Wellensittich"?

Hartlich Gr?ten,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Moin, Heiko!

Bi mi is heet dat "Buttjer" or "Buttje". In Hamborg un Kuntree heet dat ook
so in't Missingsch, hangt sachs mit Ingelsch *budgerigar (budgie*) tosamen.
Later w??r dat denn in Noordd??tschland de bekanntste"V?r"-Naam f?r Vagels.

Folks, Heiko asks if there's a Low Saxon word for "budgerigar" (= American
English "parakeet").

I told him that in my "book" it's *Buttjer *(["bUtS3`]) or *Buttje **
*(["bUtSe]),
also in Missingsch of Hamburg. I assume that the most used "personal" name
for the birds in Northern German is derived from this, and that it in turn
is derived from English "budgerigar" ~ "budgie". The origin is in a so far
undetermined Australian language, possibly Gamilaraai (*gidjirrigaa*).

I further assume that the birds were introduced to Germany via Hamburg by
sailors with ties to British merchant ships that frequented Australian
ports. They are very popular in Germany (the German name being *
Wellensittich* "undulated parakeet").

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/f7f9856f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 28 23:18:27 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:18:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.28 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.NOV.2007.151827.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varietes" 2007.11.28 (03) [E]

From: "ds" <dstokely at infionline.net>
Subject: language varieties

 I have to add a little experience I had here.  When I was a young lad (way
back in the last century, I know), my father took me south to Georgia where
he was born.  We were sitting in the train station and I heard a loud
mouthed black man talking behind me.  I looked back and didn't see him.
Again, I heard that same black man speaking and turned around.  A careful
search revealed a WHITE MAN speaking black English!  I had an epiphany.  The
blacks I had heard all my life were speaking with a southern accent.

David Stokely

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, David.

I had a similar experience once in an airport when I heard people talk in
West Indian English somewhere in my vicinity. When I finally located the
speakers I saw two European faces and one East Asian face. Then I thought,
"Duh! Of course! Why not?" and I realized that our conditioned mental
associations between language sounds and people's looks have to change with
all those changes we are now witnessing. Of course this includes
"White-talking Blacks" and "Black-talking Whites" in the northern states.

Also, I once met an ethnic Russian with a Chinese accent. Turned out she
belonged to the small Russian minority of China and had learned English from
Chinese teachers at school, which accounts for her having a Chinese accent
rather than a Russian one, although her first language was Russian.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

When I lived in Australia, I used to call our Perth office regularly, and
always spoke to the secretary/PR officer, a woman with a very marked
Jamaican accent. I always envisaged a tall black woman with dreadlocks, but
of course when I went over there I was met by a short very conservatively
dressed white lady. As you say, we are filled with preconceptions.

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language varieties

The parents of "my" family and some of their friends and neighbors in
Israel, all European-born Yiddish speakers, used to get real kicks out of
surprising their visitors of similar background by engaging me in Yiddish
conversations when I showed up. It was a biggish deal at that time *... *One
of them used to say, "*un mit aza ponem, a goyishn!"* ("... and with such a
*goyish* (Gentile) face!").

Things have changed in this regard as well, as more and more German
universities offer Yiddish tracks, even as majors.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071128/9bf9cf26/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 29 16:28:12 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:28:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.11.29 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.NOV.2007.082812.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  29 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varietes" 2007.11.28 (03) [E]

Hi all,

David, Ron, I love it when one's language illusions are challenged.

Once I listened to a radio program in the '60s about Afrikaans elsewhere in
the world and heard a young 'black' cattle farmer in Botswana speaking in
Afrikaans. I soon realized my mistake when the guy spoke about getting on
very well with his black Botswana compatriots.

And while visiting the Maritz family in northern rural Natal I wandered one
morning through their rambling old house and heard the happy chatter of Zulu
women making beds. Peeking around the door I found old tannie Maritz to be
the loudest chatter!

Finally, out near the Mozambique border is a small town called Komatiepoort
where they have a fabulous shop selling everything from Shangaan
drums, handmade clay pots and German print material (*Seshoeshoe*) to fresh
sugarcane and unroasted coffeebeans. While I was lost in browsing, a
young girl's voice said '*Is daar iets besonders waarna tannie soek?* and it
was the proprietor's adopted black teenage daughter.

Language varieties or human varieties?

Elsie Zinsser

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071129/8be4d51b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 29 16:26:34 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:26:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.NOV.2007.082634.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  29 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]

Dear Mark, Sandy, Ron & All:

Subject L-Lowlands "Etymology"

Of course, I immediately wanted to know where the word "tattoo" came from.

My first reaction was "What?!" And then I found that the *Oxford English
Dictionary* agrees with it and it all starts making sense:
[In 17th c. *tap-too*, a. Du. *taptoe* in same sense; f. *tap* the tap (of a
cask), + *toe* = *doe toe* 'shut'. So Sw. *tapto*, Sp. (1706) *tatu*. Cf.
Ger. *zapfenstreich *, LG. *tappenslag*, Da. *tappenstreg*, with the first
element the same, and second element meaning 'stroke, beat'.
Although Du. *tap toe* was in military use in our sense 1 in the 17th c.,
there is reason to doubt if this was its original use. *Tap toe* = *doe den
tap toe* 'put the tap to', 'close or turn off the tap', was app. already in
colloquial use for 'shut up! stop! cease!'; Dr. Kluyver points out, in a
play of 1639 from Emden, *Doch hier de tap van toe* = 'but here we shut up',
or 'say no more'.]

I'd just like to cast a bit of military light on this:

The 'tattoo' is associated with nightfall & the last parade exercise, before
curfew. This is the significance to the soldier of the order (to purveyors
of spiritous liquors) "Tap toe!" = "Taps shut!" In the same sense the
British tapman calls out to his guests in the pub, "Time, gentlemen,
please!" When the sutlers hear it they seal their casks & that drink you're
still busy with is your last, @#%&*+...it! Well, back to unit lines, if you
can still walk, & help a buddy if he needs it.

Gesondheid... Hic!

Mark

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071129/7cf94840/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 29 21:50:09 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:50:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.29 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.29.NOV.2007.135009.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Soenke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.11.28 (07) [E/LS]

An'n Mi., den 28. Nov.'07, hett Ron dit Klock 23.00 schreven:

>> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
>> Subject: LL-L: Lexikon
>>
>> Moin tosamen,
>> noch een Fraag ut de plattd??tsche Wikipedia:
>> gifft dat en plattd??tsch Woort f?r den "Wellensittich"?
>>
>> Hartlich Gr?ten,
>> Heiko Evermann
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Moin, Heiko!
>
> Bi mi is heet dat "Buttjer" or "Buttje".

Hi Ron, Heiko, and all,
that bird is a "Buttje", also in my book, but a "Buttjer" is an
affectionate name for a little boy. "Na mien Buttjer, wo wullt du denn so
gau opdaal?" ("Hey little lad, whereto are you going so fast?"). There's
also a verb "(r?m-)buttjern" meaning "to stroll about, walk aimlessly",
possibly related to the staggering walk of little children.

Hoolt sik,
S?nke

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi, S?nke, and thanks for the input! It's really interesting in that it puts
a new spin on it for me and for others that remember a discussion about *
butje* in the distant past.

I personally say *butje* (*Buttje*), though I hear others say *butjer* (*
Buttjer*). I've always assumed it was a case of dialectical distribution.

Furthermore, I tend to say *butje* (*Buttje*) in *both* cases: (1)
'budgerigar' (parakeet), and (2) 'little boy'. I am a *Hamborger Buttje*, as
native males of/from Hamburg are called. (The female equivalent is *Hamborger
Diern*, *Diern* (/deirn/) being 'girl'.)

The most frequently heard (folk?) etymology connects the word *Buttje* in
the diminutive with *but* (*Butt*) 'flatfish', 'but(t)' (e.g., halibut).

Now that you pointed out a possible connection with the verb /butjer-/ *
(r?m-)butjern* it brings to mind the noun *but* (*Butt*) in the sense of
'boot', which we also use in Missingsch and in Miussingsch-colored German,
such as *Gummibutten* for 'rubber boots', 'wellingtons'. Right now I can't
find this word in any dictionary. This makes me wonder if it's a
Hamburg-specific word, if it began as an English loan, and if in the sense
of 'little Hamburg boy' it was inspired by this locally specific word. So
it's this comical image of a little boy that stomps about with his large
boots on (*l?tt(j)en jung mit grote butten*/*butjes an*), in other words *'n
l?tten butjer* that "butjers" about. This makes so much more sense to me!

If this holds any water, it would be very similar to the nickname of Emperor
Gaius Iulius Caesar Germanicus (CE 12-41): *Caligula *"Little Boot" because
as a little tyke (before he developed into the poor, mentally ill piece of
work that fascinates people to this day) he stomped around in military
leather half-boots called *caligae* (plural of *caliga*,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligae).

Back to the focus! I now suspect that in some dialects *butje* 'budgerigar'
and *butjer* 'little boy' fused; both came to be called one or the other.

Good one, S?nke!

Kumpelmenten!

Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071129/dd3fefdc/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 15:14:43 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:14:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.071443.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.29 (01) [E]

So is this why the song played at lights out (as well as at military
funerals) is called "Taps"?

Kevin Caldwell

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.28 (02) [E]

Dear Mark, Sandy, Ron & All:

Subject L-Lowlands "Etymology"

Of course, I immediately wanted to know where the word "tattoo" came from.

My first reaction was "What?!" And then I found that the *Oxford English
Dictionary* agrees with it and it all starts making sense:

[In 17th c. *tap-too*, a. Du. *taptoe* in same sense; f. *tap* the tap (of a
cask), + *toe* = *doe toe* 'shut'. So Sw. *tapto*, Sp. (1706) *tatu*. Cf.
Ger. *zapfenstreich *, LG. *tappenslag*, Da. *tappenstreg*, with the first
element the same, and second element meaning 'stroke, beat'.

Although Du. *tap toe* was in military use in our sense 1 in the 17th c.,
there is reason to doubt if this was its original use. *Tap toe* = *doe den
tap toe* 'put the tap to', 'close or turn off the tap', was app. already in
colloquial use for 'shut up! stop! cease!'; Dr. Kluyver points out, in a
play of 1639 from Emden, *Doch hier de tap van toe* = 'but here we shut up',
or 'say no more'.]

I'd just like to cast a bit of military light on this:

The 'tattoo' is associated with nightfall & the last parade exercise, before
curfew. This is the significance to the soldier of the order (to purveyors
of spiritous liquors) "Tap toe!" = "Taps shut!" In the same sense the
British tapman calls out to his guests in the pub, "Time, gentlemen,
please!" When the sutlers hear it they seal their casks & that drink you're
still busy with is your last, @#%&*+...it! Well, back to unit lines, if you
can still walk, & help a buddy if he needs it.

Gesondheid... Hic!
 Mark

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/2a793df1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 20:52:29 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:52:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.125229.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: rick denkers <info at d-denkers.speedlinq.nl>
Subject: little rhyme

Moin,

In the dairy from my father, who passed away in 2003, I found this
little rhyme:

Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
De Teller h?ft e jildne Rand,
Fru Wirtin h?ft e milde Hand.

Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"

Anyone who recognizes it?

Rick Denkers
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/8ab6b4eb/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 21:03:07 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:03:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.130307.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]

Rick wrote:
>Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
>the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"
>
>Anyone who recognizes it?

Yes, it means "golden".

Gabriele Kahn

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/9c1cf287/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 22:05:44 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:05:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2007.11.30 (04) [E/F]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.140544.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: Songs

Funny: Hee Sjoerd, a Frisian version of the Beatles' Hey Jude.
Sjoerd (Sieuwerd) is a very typical Frisian male first name in the
Netherlands. I'll translate it for you in English

Hee Sjoerd, by Tineke Hoekstra

Hee Sjoerd, it komt wol goed.
Nim in min liet en skriuw it better.
Ferjit net en lit har ta yn dyn hert,
Begjin wer opnij, mar folle better.

(Hey S, it will be alright
Take a bad song, and write it better
Don't forget and let it into your heart
Start all anew, but much better)

Hee Sjoerd, w?s net benaud.
Do allinne, do kinst har fine.
En fynst har, fertrou har dan ek folslein,
Dat is 't begjin fan folle better.

(hey S, don't be afraid
Do it alone, you can find her
and find her, trust her completely
then it's the beginning of a lot better)

En al dy tiid docht it dy sear, hee Sjoerd, kom op,
T?gje de wr?ld net op dyn skouders.
W?s no net grutsk en doch net gek, dan komst der net,
Dan makkest de wr?ld allinne k?lder.

(and all that time it hurt you, hey S, come on
don't bear the world on your shoulders,
don't be so proud and don't be crazy, otherwise you won't make it,
then you'll just make the world colder)

Hee Sjoerd, doch it foar my.
Gean der hinne en nimme har gau mei.
Ferjit net en lit har ta yn dyn hert.
Begjin wer opnij, mar folle better.

(Hey S, do it for me
Go there and take her with you soon
Don't forget to let her into your heart
Start all over, but a lot better)

Tink der noch mar ris goed oer nei, hee Sjoerd, begjin,
Do wachtest op immen dy't dy stipet.
It leit no allegear by dy, hee Sjoerd, set troch.
Do hast in hiel lyts triuwke nedich.

(just think it over really good again, hey S, begin
you're waiting for someone who ?s you
it all lays in your hands now, hey S, hold on
you need a very small ?)

Hee Sjoerd, it komt wol goed.
Nim in min liet en skriuw it better.
Ferjit net, fertrou har altyd folslein,
In nij begjin, mar folle

(Hey S, it will be alright
take a bad song and write it better
don't forget, alwaus trust her completely
a new beginning, but much..)

Better, better, better, better, better, better, oh&

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, hee Sjoerd&

(better better better oh, na na na na na n na na, na na na na hey S)

Ingmar
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/4cfbc3ed/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 30 23:24:24 2007
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:24:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (05) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2007.152424.0800.>

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?"

Beste Rick,

You wrote:
> Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
> de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
> De Teller h?ft e jildne Rand,
> Fru Wirtin h?ft e milde Hand.
>
> Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
> the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"
>
> Anyone who recognizes it?

Maybe jildne < guldene = gouden?

Initial g>j can be heard in Ripuarian, Berlin, ?Mennonite?.
u>i is due to unrounding, and can be found in many Germanic dialects.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be >
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]

Beste,
Ik denk dat 'jildne" gulden, gouden is; er zijn trouwens vele borden met een
gouden rand! Die jotisering komt zo vaak voor, vb. geluw = yellow.
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

From: rick denkers < info at d-denkers.speedlinq.nl>
Subject: little rhyme

Moin,

In the dairy from my father, who passed away in 2003, I found this
little rhyme:

Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
De Teller h?ft e jildne Rand,
Fru Wirtin h?ft e milde Hand.

Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"

Anyone who recognizes it?

Rick Denkers

----------

From: Dick Visscher <hgsvisscher at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]

Hi Rick,

I reckon it means "gilded" (gold plated). In Dutch we would say "vergulde".
Many Berliners use a j pronunciation for words starting with the letter g
e.g. Gut (=good) is pronounced as Jut. The way you spell this words reminds
me of that phenomenon. However, I am Dutch, not German so I may be utterly
wrong. The little poem is not hard to understand.
Cheers

Dick Visscher
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071130/ecb3818e/attachment.htm>