LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.12 (05) [E]

Fri Oct 12 22:57:16 UTC 2007

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com

 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 October 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
 ========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.12 (03) [E]

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:16:29 -0700, Lowlands-L List
<lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

Why didn't Dutch, or rather "Flemish" as it was/is called in Belgium, have
any success in Belgian colonies or protectorates in Africa, in Congo,
Rwanda, Burundi?
I assume in that period, the first half of the last century, many Flemish
even didn't know standard Dutch very well themselves, what they spoke were
their Brabant, West and East Flemish or Limburg dialects and a kind of
Dutch coloured heavily by those. French, however, was a clear and uniform
language. With all the prestige Flemish was lacking.

Something else: French orthography may be horrible, but its phonetics are
not. Actually, I think spoken French is much easier, much more familiar to
most African ears than Dutch or German would be: French has far less
tricky consonant clusters, no ch-sounds, it's pretty nasal like many
African languages, etc. That may have helped to its success there, too...
When you really want to hear Afro-French, just listen to the creole songs
of Kassav' or Zouk machine from the Antilles. It's such a sweet language...

Ingmar

----------

From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.11 (01) [E]

 I believe that Dutch had virtually no impact in Belgian colonies.
Wasn't French the language of the Belgian colonies? French is the European
language of the Congo area, and French influence is all over Kokoongo and
the other Bantu languages.
Ben

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Paul,

You wrote:
> Luc,
> Regarding French, I think you support my argument; despite being one
> of the "worst" European languages for matching sounds with spelling,
> it has a wide currency - because France was powerful.

Sure do. The reason that France was powerful was why it got adopted in
Africa in the first place. But also bear in mind, that even though a
nation can be powerful, it usually takes less time to lose that power
than it takes to consolidate it. If French would have suffered from a
series of bad spelling reforms, Africans might have understood this as
"weakness". First cracks in your Kulturhaus :-) .

> I'm not sure French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish got international
> currency by being "Latin"; three of the four were the languages of big
> empires and are spoken internationally.

Latin was the language of science and religion. No small virtue (from
the 15th century on). As such it was perceived to float halfway between
earth and sky. Semi-divine :-D .

>  Tellingly, one wasn't, and isn't.  But of course they are all only
> "Latin" in the first place because Rome did have a big empire!

Which wasn't built in a day. Whose influence was profound. And which
lasted for quite a while. This is not exactly a "fait divers".

> As for the perceived "ugliness" of German (something I get from
> everyone who knows I'm learning it), much of this, at least amongst
> English speakers, is because the only German they think of is films of
> Old Toothbrush Nose, screaming (I still can't make out more than about
> 25% of what he was saying).

Lol. Reminds me of one of my dad's uncles, who was a missionary in
Congo. When I was 10 or so, he once visited our house, and was eager to
test my language skills. First said he believed that the number of
languages man is able to speak, equals the number of men he's worth.
Then he taught me how to count till 5 in Swahili (told me that some
tribes didn't have words for numbers higher than five!)...and finally
stated (sic): "Die Deutsche Sprache ist eine Pferdesprache". Up till
this day I wonder where he got that from as it sounded like a quote, but
he didn't explain. Guess he was referring to German aspiration, being
relatively strong, compared to our local Brabantish dialect (but I'm not
sure whether that was what he really meant). Yep, he was born and raised
in a completely Dutch setting, still spoke the dialect very well, but
had mentally evolved into a Francophile. I gather he was no exception
among his peers.
Then again, to !some! extent I understand his (rude) remark about
German, 'cause I personally experienced more or less the same when I
came back from China. Hearing nothing but Mandarin Chinese for almost a
year (apart from some English now and then), I found it quite difficult
to start speaking Dutch again when I got back home. In the beginning, my
dialect really sounded like Russian to my ears: Bulky, rough and dark
(no doubt due to thick [z], heavy rolling [r], and words with few vowels).

Mind you, in the meantime I "recovered", and can now thoroughly enjoy
the sound of any language again :-D .

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

•

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071012/0a5c5173/attachment.htm>