LL-L "Orthography" 2008.04.01 (04) [D/E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 31 March 2008 - Volume 04
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From: orville crane <manbythewater at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.03.30 (08) [E]

Beste Luc,
Hoe leuk om je fotos uit Oesbekistan te zien.
kanakanakai tom
manbythewater

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.03.30 (08) [E]

Ron, ao or oa for [ɔː] instead of using aa in Low Saxon in the Netherlands
is a totally different matter, because most LS varieties here still have
the original divergence between lengthened short a in open syllables [a:]
in water, later, maken etc. and old long a [ɔː] in slaopen, laoten, gaon
etc. Only in Groningen and a part of Drenthe both became [ɔː] or even [o:].
The latter is the same in most German Low Saxon, except for Westphalian, I
guess?
Many other dialects in the Netherlands also have [a:] and [[ɔː], where
Dutch has aa [a:], so it's totally logical to use spellings like ao for
the darker [ɔː] and aa for [a:]. Unlike in Northern Germany, our a's are
not the same, the difference between [a:] and [ɔː] is just as important as
that for instance between your ie and ee, that are both ei in St German.

There are also dialects with ae [æ:] and  ao [ɔː] or even aa, ao and ae.

Btw I know many people from Iran and Afghanistan that use [ɔː] instead of
[a:] to pronounce Dutch aa, even in a foreign language they stick to their
Farsi or Dari accents.

Groetjes
Ingmar

Reindert schreef:
In Low Saxon this happened
after Middle Saxon spelling had been lost from people's memory and German
spelling ("o" for /aa/ -> [ɒ(ː)] ~ [ɔ(ː)] ~ [o(ː)]) and Dutch spelling ("oa"
or "oa" for /aa/ -> [ɒ(ː)] ~ [ɔ(ː)]) came to be used as yardsticks for the
new orthographic systems (as also in West Flemish and other non-standard
Dutch varieties where the long /a/ is pronounced more or less rounded).

Let it now be said that I don't know how to bring practically any seemingly
extraneous topic back into the Lowlands!

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Thanks, Ingmar. Point well taken.

This reminds me that I am more and more inclined to the southern dialects of
the Netherlands together with the Westphalian ones of Germany (and they may
be one group) as a separate group of Low Saxon varieties. They require
special orthographic considerations (hopefully within the same general
system). However, short /a/ lengthened by rule ought not interfere with then
orthographic system, because it doesn't have a place in a phoneme-based one.

It is perhaps not coincidental either that I find the varieties of Groningen
and Northern Drenthe easier to understand, probably because they constitute
the westernmost extension of Northern Low Saxon.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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