LL-L "Phonology" 2008.04.21 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

 ========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 21 April 2008 - Volume 01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).
If viewing this in a web browser, please click on
the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page.
 ========================================================================

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.04.17 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>  Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Having listened to a part of the Pope's homile delivered during a mass at
> Yankee Stadium today, I was reminded again that what the average US
American
> considers a "typical" German accent is a Bavarian or an otherwise southern
> one, no doubt because of the predominance of Southerners among German
> immigrants in this country and because of Americans military personnel's
> experience in Southern Germany, which has also been touted as being
"typical
> Germany" and thus is a major tourism region.
>
> While most German "accent" features are shared by Southerners and
> Northerners, I was also reminded that a striking difference between them
at
> least used to be the pronunciation of the initial "j" sound in English (as
> e.g. in "joke" and "jeer"). While most Northerners can pronounce it the
> general English way, Southerners tend to pronounce it as though it were a
> "ch" sound (as e.g. in "choke" and "cheer"). Being a Bavarian, the current
> pope has this southern pronunciation, as has the current governor of
> California (Arnold Schwarzenegger, a born and bred Austrian).
>
> I contend that traditionally Northerners do not have this "problem"
because
> Low Saxon and Missingsch are traditionally used in their environment, and
> most of their varieties in the Northern Low Saxon range share this sound
> with English (e.g. in jung 'young' and Jahr 'year').
>
> Now, quite a bit of water has flowed under the bridge since my glory days
or
> yore when we pronounced even "straight" German with a strong Low Saxon
> accent.  In general, the Northern accent has been watered down thanks to
> population mixing and the strong influences of the electronic media. The
> average, "younger" North German now sounds pretty mainstream German to me,
> with only hues instead of colors of the North. Most of them cannot speak
Low
> Saxon and have "atrocious" German accents when they try to do so, mostly
> because they learn it through the distorting veil of the poorly conceived
> and implemented German-based orthography.
>
> Therefore I wonder if younger North Germans these days tend to pronounce
> English "j" as "ch" or if most of them still do a convincing "j" sound
like
> their predecessors did and do.
>
>  Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

That reminds me of the English here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin,
incidentally - we lack a true voiced [dZ] here but only have a pair of
fortis and lenis voiceless phonemes that could be called /tS/ and
/dZ_0/ or /tS_h/ and /tS/. It is not surprising that such would have
been acquired as a substratum feature by the English here, considering
the general range of German dialects that would have been spoken here
historically. What is more interesting, though, is that it seems that
there are no true voiced obstruent phonemes here but only secondary
allophonic voicing of underlyingly voiceless lenis obstruent phonemes,
with the primary vehicles for actually expressing such phonemic
distinctions being aspiration, vowel length, preglottalization, and to
a lesser extent consonant length, which is quite reminiscient of Upper
German dialects. (Contrast with English dialects up in the Green Bay
area, which seem to have rather consistent full voicing in all
positions aside from final devoicing of /z/.) I myself wonder why a
specifically southern phonological pattern would have managed to be
inherited as a substratum feature by the English dialects here,
especially considering that the area was settled by people from all
over the High and Low German-speaking area circa 1880. The only thing
I can think of is that such is just coincidental, and is just a
(relatively) recent local recreation of the same sort of phonological
system which has been separately innovated in Upper German dialects,
Danish, and Icelandic; still, it seems awfully close to the Upper
German pattern with respect to such.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Travis, and thanks. Great to hear from you again.

This is really interesting information, and I hope you'll share more about
the Wisconsin dialects.

I feel that we ought to look at historical and social aspects, in particular
the possibility of earlier establishment and prominence (thus higher
prestige) of Southerners. Also, this may be due to numbers, namely Southern
predominance. And then there is the matter of German education, especially
in the early days.Was there a predominance of Southern speaker among the
educators.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

•

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20080421/afaf56e0/attachment.htm>