From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 00:49:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:49:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Presentations" 2008.11.30 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.NOV.2008.164922.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Presentations

Dear Lowlanders,

Our *Arend Victorie* has done it again.

You may remember that he shared with us his ballad about "Cissy the Fog
Witch" whose spirit still haunts Arend's neck of the woods. (I added my
singable English version to it.)

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie.php
English: http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie-en.php

(with a link to a video performance)

Now Arend had a Cillie (Cissy) sighting and a photo to prove it!

I have added a link to his report to the pages mentioned above. Here are the
direct URLs:

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie_apparation.php
English: http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie_apparation-en.php

Arend recommends the story for warming your mid-winter nights.

And talking about our Gallery (http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/), I am happy
to report that it has been growing. At the moment I can't even keep up with
the material to be posted there (but that does not mean that you should stop
submitting your works).

Because of the literary quality of their articles in our Travel presentation

(http://lowlands-l.net/travels/) I posted the works of *Andrys Onsman* and *Tom
Mc Rae* in the Gallery as well. I invite you to read them again in this
light:

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/onsman.php
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae.php

Consequently, Tom submitted other works of his and more are to follow. Some
of them can be classified as essays or articles, and they are written in
English. Others are tales, actually well-known tales retold and recast in
Edinburgh Scots (which most of you will read fairly easily). I'm sure you'll
get a special kick out of those. (I sure did.) More of this is in the
offing. So please keep watching Tom's and other folks' Gallery spaces.

There seems to be a lot of talent among us. Who knows how many lights are
still being hidden under bushels?

If you wish to have your own Gallery space or to add works to yours, please
submit them to me at my private address.

Thanks and regards!

Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 06:05:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:05:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Presentations" 2008.11.30 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.NOV.2008.220522.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Presentations" 2008.11.30 (05) [E]

On 01/12/2008, at 10:49 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>wrote:


Subject: Presentations

Dear Lowlanders,

Our *Arend Victorie* has done it again.

You may remember that he shared with us his ballad about "Cissy the Fog
Witch" whose spirit still haunts Arend's neck of the woods. (I added my
singable English version to it.)

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie.php
English: http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie-en.php

(with a link to a video performance)

Now Arend had a Cillie (Cissy) sighting and a photo to prove it!



Fascinating photograph sorrowful story. Many Thanks.

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 16:12:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:12:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2008.12.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.081253.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to December 2008 at Lowlands-L!

And welcome to you who joined or rejoined us since the beginning of
November! Please find their places of residence listed at the end of this.

Please don't forget about our activities:

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
   - Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)
   - Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)
   - History (lowlands-l.net/history/ <http://lowlands-l.net/travels/>)
   - Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Beyond the Pale
(lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)


Please ask if you need to know what you can do and how to do it. Please also
remember that help is available.

I admit that I am disappointed especially with the scarce response to my
call to add members' resources to the latest project (
http://lowlands-l.net/resources/). After all, I know that quite a few of you
have websites and other publications, including those that are directly
related to our focus.

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:

   - Do not mix topics.
   - Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you
   respond. It is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a
   subject line.
   - When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
   portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
   response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
   then.


Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php


Another request:

Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.

*
Membership:*

As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
   your view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.
   2. You must always give us your name, given name and family name.
   3. If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give
   us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
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   simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.
   5. Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making
   up your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make
   sure "Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.
   6. DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.
   7. Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their
   names with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting
   is not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
   even if you do not put them right next to each other.


Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

   1. Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things
   up, please.
   2. Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
   responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
   apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.
   3. Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
   response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
   not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
   version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
   relevant to your response.
   4. Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are.
   If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L"
   as the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
   authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.
   5. Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
   sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.

*
Change of Address: *
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address.

*Temporary Absence*
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

And remember:
No matter from where you are, here you are considered Lowlanders until
proved innocent!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
sassisch at yahoo.com
Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)

***

Those of you that joined us in November 2008 live in the following places:

*Denmark* (Danmark):
     Capital (Hovedstaden):
          Copenhagen (København) [1]
*Germany* (Deutschland):
     Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen, Neddersassen):
          Göttingen (Chöttingen) [1]
*Italy* (Italia):
     Province of Bari (Provincia di Bari):
          Bari [1]
*Netherlands*:
     Fryslân (Friesland, Frieslaand):
          Eastern Stellingwerf (Eaststellingwerf, Ooststellingwerf,
          Ooststellingwarf):
               Elslo (Elsloo) [1]
*Serbia* (Србија, Srbija):
     Belgrade (Београд, Beograd) [1]
*South Africa*:
     Gauteng:
          Pretoria (IPitoli) [1]
*United Kingdom*:
     England:
          Derbyshire:
               Chapel-en-le-Frith [1]
*United States of America*:
     Pennsylvania:
          Pittsburgh [1]
     South Carolina:
          Columbia [1]
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 16:39:34 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:39:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.083934.0800.>

===========================================
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.30 (04) [E]

from heather rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

re origins and other meanings of 'rag'

How do any of you think the English epression 'local rag' meaning 'local
newspaper' might have got its name?

I was wondering whether it came from the fact that poor quality paper was
made from rags? And so this carried over to mean 'poor quality newspaper'
and then got carried over again to schools and colleges 'the college rag'
i.e. magazine  with the meaning 'amateur paper / magazine'

And might this have also been carried over to sheet music as a music rag i.e
lesser quality music?

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Happy December, everyone, and a happy Advent season to those of you that
celebrate it!

Interesting question about "rag" in this sense, Heather.

I always assumed that "rag" just emphasized the worthlessness of "worthless
newspaper", something that might as well be thrown away.

I believe that in Yiddish, too, you can refer to a worthless newspaper (and
several other things, such as a garment or a worthless document) as שמאַטע (
*shmate*) 'rag'. (*Iz dos rikhtik, Leybl un andere khaveyrim?*) Well, at
least *I* have been known to use the word that way in Yiddish. ;-)
*Shmate*is one of those very useful and ubiquitous Yiddish words that
has found its
way into Northeast American English parlance as a straight loan as well.

So perhaps we are dealing with a Yiddish calque (*shmate* > rag), possibly
one that started in North America. This would have been an easy fit in that
"rag" in the sense of "inferior garment" was probably in English use
already.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 16:45:17 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:45:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.084517.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.01 (02) [E]

Am 30.11.2008 um 23:59 schrieb Jorge Potter:

So now we know that musically "rag" means a piece of old cloth from Old
English ragge, related to rugged and Old Norse rögg = tuft.


Thank you very much, dear Jorge,

for your final clarification of the semiotic background of the modern term
"ragtime" (music) and the deplorable racist connotation. That's a necessary
completion of the harmless things they gave in the radio feature I'd
listened to.

My interest in the term "rag" was mainly linguistic, semantic. But I'm not a
linguist, so my construction in "Etymology" 2008.11.25 may be erroneus and
pure "folk's etymology".

But for my simple feeling the Old Norsk "raggaðr [shaggy]" and the

piece of old cloth from Old English ragge, related to rugged and Old Norse
rögg = tuft


seem to be nearby, in wording and meaning. And would both fit in my
speculation:

The central meaning should be that of describing the surface of things as
"shaggy", in contradiction to "even" or "plain", with pinnacles, spikes,
fractions, vertices.


But this can remain unresolved, I just hoped to enrich - with "raggen",
"raggig" some LS varieties with another - as such useful - word stem...

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 17:37:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:37:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.093712.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Rag paper is actually very high quality, not low quality.  See
http://painting.about.com/od/artglossaryr/g/defragpaper.htm .

I suspect "rag" as a disparaging term for a newspaper refers to the quality
of the writing, not the paper it's printed on.

Some American schools whose mascot is the tiger call their school newspaper
"Tiger Rag", which is also the name of a well-known ragtime song.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Heather asked:  "How do any of you think the English epression 'local rag'
meaning 'local newspaper' might have got its name?"

I used to work in a copy/printing company.  When we talked about high
quality paper, we would call it by the percent of "rag" it contained.  Rag
in this case meant cotton.  So when we printed Doctoral Dissertations we
always put them on 100% rag.  You could also find 50% rag and so on.
However, in our case it meant a higher quality of paper than the standard
copy paper.

Regards,

Mark Brooks

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 20:53:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:53:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (05) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.125335.0800.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2008 - Volume 05
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (03) [E]

Among musicians, apparently "to rag" a piece of music, or make it "ragged",
is to syncopate a standard melody (i.e., move it off the beat).  So
"ragtime" was so called because it has a ragged melody.

http://cnx.org/content/m10878/latest/

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: ppvaneeden at ziggo.nl
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.30 (01) [E]

Good day!

More about this important giant (perhaps a God) Surtr. Our Dutch word z*wart
* (black) is related to Surtr. It is also interesting to note that the words
*sword* and *swear* can both be linked to the PIE **swer-.* Perhaps they are
also related to Surtr. In ancient times the *sword* played a very important
role in the oath swearing ceremonies.

Sword:

O.E. sweord, from P.Gmc. *swerdan (cf. O.S., O.Fris. swerd, O.N. sverð,
Swed. svärd, M.Du. swaert, Du. zwaard, O.H.G. swert, Ger. Schwert), related
to O.H.G. sweran "to hurt," from *swertha-, lit. "the cutting weapon," from
PIE base *swer- "to cut."

Swear:

O.E. swerian "take an oath" from P.Gmc. *swarjanan, from root *swar- (cf.
O.S. swerian, O.N. sverja, Dan. sverge, O.Fris. swera, M.Du. swaren, O.H.G.
swerien, Ger. schwören, Goth. swaren "to swear"), from PIE base *swer- "to
speak, say" (cf. O.C.S. svara "quarrel").

But Saterday (from Sæternes or Sætern or Saturn) is then also related to
Surtr!

Surtr is a very old giant (perhaps a God). He exited before the creation of
the other giants and Gods. Surtr is an important figure during the Ragnarok.
He will destroy the earth with fire. All the giants will be destroyed by the
Gods during the Ragnarok except for this giant Surtr.

Regards,

Petrus van Eeden

*Van:* ppvaneeden at ziggo.nl [mailto:ppvaneeden at ziggo.nl]
*Verzonden:* 30 November 2008 05:56 PM
*Aan:* 'lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM'; 'LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG'
*Onderwerp:* RE: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.30 (01) [E]

Goeie dag,

Heel interessant oor die woord *Reus*! In my Etymologisch woordeboek van het
Nederlands staan dat die woord *reus* moontlik verwant is aan die Latynse *
verrūca* (hoogte) en Sanskrit *vársman* (hoogte) en Indo-europees
**uer-*(verhoogde plek).

Groete,

Petrus van Eeden

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]

from Heather Rendall

re rag paper

Whoops! My mistake and apologies to all those connected with the paper
trade. I suppose I was thinking about the paper that was used in old 50s
comics and other cheap books / magazines in which you could almost see
pressed threads.

What would this have been made out of?

Sorry not really a Forum problem! But I'm interested.

Heather

----------

From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Moi Heather en Reinhard.

Betreft "Rag/Raggen"

Wij hebben in het Nederlands Bargoens het woord "Ragschore" = Ondeugelijke
waar (markttaal) Rag is wellicht <Hebr. *reiag, roeach>* wind, geur,  of in
een ongunstige betekenis: *stank.*

Mogelijk echter ook < het germ. Woord voor los weefsel dat in Algemeen
Beschaafd Nederlands *spinrag, ragebol*, ect. voorkomt.

Arend Victorie
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 22:31:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:31:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (06) [E/Yiddish]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.143141.0800.>

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From: RBlaustein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

As long as we're discussing the etymology and various meaning of "rag,"
"ragged," and so forth, let me toss this into the mix:*  *

In northwest Connecticut,  "raggie" or "raggy" is a derogatory, contemptuous
term applied to poorly dressed,
lower-class people.

In the neighborhood of  the town of Salisbury in the mountainous
northwestern corner of Litchfield County, Connecticut, the term "raggie" is
specifically applied to lower class inhabitants of Mount Riga, locally
pronounced "Raggy." Is this a folk etymology, do you think?

However,  the term "raggie" is also applied to lower class natives of the
towns of
Winsted, Norfolk and Torrington, all located in Litchfield County.
Apparently, residents of the
various towns apply it to natives of the other towns.

see http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=raggie&defid=2030984.

There is even a FaceBook group of Raggies consisting of present and former
residents of Northwestern Connecticut, who consider the term an in-joke.

However, I have the impression that the term "raggy" is also used in a
derogatory sense in the UK but thus far have not been able to track this
down on the internet.

Have any readers of this list encountered "raggy" or "raggie" used in this
sense outside of northwestern Connecticut? I'd be interested to know if you
have.

All best wishes,

Richard Blaustein

----------

From: Lee Goldberg <leybl_goldberg at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

*Yo, ir zayt gerekht, Ron.  **Dos iz take rikhtik.*



"Shmate" in Yiddish is often used figuratively to mean "a piece of crap".
As applied to a woman (for instance, the Russian Empress Alexandra in
a celebrated ditty of the time), it can mean a slut or a whore.



And in a song from World War II, a little orphan boy sings



*Kh'hob gehat a tatele,*

*Hot er mikh gehit.*

*Itst bin ikh a shmatele*

*Vayl ikh bin a yid.*

(I once had a Daddy/Who took care of me/Now I'm just a piece of dirt/Because
I am a Jew)


--- On *Mon, 12/1/08, Reinhard/Ron *wrote:

I believe that in Yiddish, too, you can refer to a worthless newspaper (and
several other things, such as a garment or a worthless document) as שמאַטע (
*shmate*) 'rag'. (*Iz dos rikhtik, Leybl un andere khaveyrim?*) Well, at
least *I* have been known to use the word that way in Yiddish. ;-)
*Shmate*is one of those very useful and ubiquitous Yiddish words that
has found its
way into Northeast American English parlance as a straight loan as well.

So perhaps we are dealing with a Yiddish calque (*shmate* > rag), possibly
one that started in North America. This would have been an easy fit in that
"rag" in the sense of "inferior garment" was probably in English use
already.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  2 15:15:03 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 07:15:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.02 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.2.DEC.2008.071503.0800.>

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From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]

Surely "rag time" refers to "non-standard timing" - ie, the timing that
wasn't
standard 4/4, and which probably - in the actual playing of the
African-American musicians of the time, probably came to something like
7/12,
5/8, 2/5, or something of that sort.

Or "shaggy" timing, to ears that held 4/4 to be perfection itself.

Just my 0.02c - don't spend it all at once - we do have a recession on!

Wesley Parish

On Tuesday 02 December 2008 06:37, Lowlands-L List wrote:
<snip>

>
> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]
>
> Rag paper is actually very high quality, not low quality.  See
> http://painting.about.com/od/artglossaryr/g/defragpaper.htm .
>
> I suspect "rag" as a disparaging term for a newspaper refers to the
quality
> of the writing, not the paper it's printed on.
>
> Some American schools whose mascot is the tiger call their school
newspaper
> "Tiger Rag", which is also the name of a well-known ragtime song.
>
> Kevin Caldwell
>
> ----------
>
> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]
>
> Heather asked:  "How do any of you think the English epression 'local rag'
> meaning 'local newspaper' might have got its name?"
>
> I used to work in a copy/printing company.  When we talked about high
> quality paper, we would call it by the percent of "rag" it contained.  Rag
> in this case meant cotton.  So when we printed Doctoral Dissertations we
> always put them on 100% rag.  You could also find 50% rag and so on.
> However, in our case it meant a higher quality of paper than the standard
> copy paper.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Brooks


--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.


----------

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (05) [A/D/E]

Rags, most probably.  It's only relatively recently that wood fibre has been
used almost exclusively as the source of cellulose fibre - before that -
well, Napolean's invasion of Egypt used up a whole lot of mummy windings for
paper in a spectacular case of cultural vandalism.

And no, I don't see it as unrelated to the forum - I did some work for the
local University Library in 2000-01, computer-cataloging a donation of
several hundred musical scores donated by a local prominent musician's widow
to the library.  The paper from the 1880-era scores was quite different from
the 1900-era scores, etc.

Most of the 1880-era and 1900-era scores were from major German music
publishers, several being from recognizable Lowlands cities.

Wesley Parish

On Tuesday 02 December 2008 09:53, Lowlands-L List wrote:
<snip> ----------

>
> From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]
>
> from Heather Rendall
>
> re rag paper
>
> Whoops! My mistake and apologies to all those connected with the paper
> trade. I suppose I was thinking about the paper that was used in old 50s
> comics and other cheap books / magazines in which you could almost see
> pressed threads.
>
> What would this have been made out of?
>
> Sorry not really a Forum problem! But I'm interested.
>
> Heather
>
> ----------

<snip>
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Ron: 'rag' for worthless newspaper might come from Yiddish, but needn't have
started in the USA perse. Also in other lowland languages we find this use,
at least in Dutch where we use 'vod' ('rag', also piece of cloth that you
use for cleaning) for worthless newspapers, or any worthless printed/written
material as a whole, so that a book or a pupil's assignment might
be referred to as 'vod', in the latter case usually by the teacher;) . Cfr.
'vodje papier'
Greetings, Diederik

----------

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Dear Heather,



No, it's the other way around. Paper made from rags is better than that made
from woodpulp.



I was born and brought up by the paper mills of the Black River Valley in
New York State. Later I lived in the Fox Valley of Wisconsin with
Kimberley-Clark, Marathon, Institue of Paper Chemistry, etc.



Jorge Potter

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  2 16:43:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 08:43:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.02 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.2.DEC.2008.084359.0800.>

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.02 (01) [E]

No, it just means that the rhythm is syncopated (emphasizing the up beat).
Ragtime music could be written in any standard time signature, but usually
was 2/4 (march time).

Kevin Caldwell

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]

Surely "rag time" refers to "non-standard timing" - ie, the timing that
wasn't
standard 4/4, and which probably - in the actual playing of the
African-American musicians of the time, probably came to something like
7/12,
5/8, 2/5, or something of that sort.

Or "shaggy" timing, to ears that held 4/4 to be perfection itself.

Just my 0.02c - don't spend it all at once - we do have a recession on!

Wesley Parish

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  2 21:16:29 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:16:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.02 (03) [E]
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Without comment a very explosive matter, also for Low Saxon in Germany:



http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,594056,00.html



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  3 04:27:39 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:27:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.02 (04) [E]
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.02 (03) [E]

Ron/Reinhard: can you decide whether or not to pass this information on

re a new subject???

We have just had this address posted on our UK Language forum.

 http://sprachatlas.bayerische-landesbibliothek-online.de/

Is it already too well known to send to the forum? Or is it a new Goodie? Or
possibly a never ending source of Yes it is /No it isn't debates?

bw from a freezing UK

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks, Heather.

The information is marginally relevant. (Few topics are totally irrelevant
to our focus.)

The language varieties you see in the northern part of Bavaria are the High
Frankish (and some Central Frankish) ones that are on a continuum with the
Central Frankish ones of the Rhenish area to the northwest, and these are
further connected with the Low Frankish ones farther west-northwest, to
which Dutch belongs. Frankish is a band of varieties that spreads from
Holland to Lower Bavaria and into parts of Saxony and Thuringia on
northwest-to-southeast angle. The High Frankish varieties have all the
features of High German, such as diphthongization (e.g. uu > au, ii > ai),
affricatization (e.g. t > ts > ss, p > pf > ff, k (> kx) > x) and devocing
(e.g. d > t).

Regards from currently damp and relatively mild Western Washington,
Reinhard/Ron

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Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:08:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.03 (01) [LS]
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.02 (03) [E]

Danke Jonny foer den link, is ok interessant dat Oezdemir Cem de fraagt
stellt wo an sik dat verhoellt met de regionalen un minderheten-spraaken in
Duetschland. Harrn se man een beten moot in Kiel, Hamborg, Bremen, Hannover,
Potsdam und Schwerin denn kunnen se ja ut protest fastleggen dat in duesse
laender Nedersaksisch, Friisk (where applicable), Soenderjysk (where
applicable) und Sorbsch (where applicable) in de laender-constitutionen as
voernemste spraken schreven ward schull sowat in verfassung vun de
Bundsrepublik Duetschland rinkomen....awer da kanns wul lang op toewen!

Groeten, Helge!

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  4 17:21:02 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:21:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.04 (01) [LS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.DEC.2008.092102.0800.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.03 (01) [LS]

....awer door köönt wi wul lang op toewen!

Mike Wintzer
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  4 18:16:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:16:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.04 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.4.DEC.2008.101616.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Media"

Dear Lowlanners and Ron,



though I'm not sure about the LL-L relevance of this topic I found it to be
an important step in internet developement and thus to inform all of you. I
think we'll get very interesting new sources, in special for historical
matters



Have a look into this site, if you're able to deal with a minimum level of
German.



http://www.netzeitung.de/internet/1225917.html



I wish you a nice evening from a very cold and 'un-gemuetlich' Northern
Germany!



Jonny Meibohm


----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks, Jonny.

Lowlanders, I don't advocate a lengthy off-track discussion here. But let me
just briefly mention that the German article Jonny refers to and also
articles linked to it deal with the growing importance of the Wikipedia as
well as freedom of speech and freedom of access to information in general.

Germany's Federal Archives now shares ca. 100,000 digitized pictures with
the Wikipedia, and the Wikipedia will in turn help to identify and date as
many as possible.

Related and linked articles report that several people, including some
German politicians and organizations, perceive the Wikipedia as a threat in
that they disagree with certain descriptions and characterizations in it. As
is typical in such instances, they point to what they think is uncontrolled
access and dissemination of information by an amorphous group of people.
Off-center politicians seem to insinuate that these people are a rag-tag
band of biased radicals and are thus dangerous. This is felt especially by
those off-center politicians that feel that articles about them were
distortions, at least before they leaned on the Wiki folks by insisting on
numerous revisions. And, yes, some of these politicians call for banning the
Wikipedia. In other words, we are dealing with the electronic age's version
of book burning.

What is particularly interesting to me is that in this context there is only
talk about the German edition of Wikipedia and pretty much no mention of the
fact that this is a global effort using large numbers of languages. This
points toward the fact that, due to being international and not centralized,
the Wikipedia effort can not be controlled or indeed stopped by anyone other
than the Wikipedia staff itself, and this is apparently very frustrating to
some. This may be a sign of the time, a time that we are likely to look back
to as one of profound change, perhaps even a time of unprecedented
emancipation and assertion due to the establishment of the Internet and due
to non-governmental and non-commercial international efforts to create
global access to resources and information. Calls for and implementation of
governmental bans (blocking access) indicate just how threatening this is in
the eyes of some. Personally, I believe that their efforts will be unable to
halt these international volunteer efforts in the long run. ("Power to the
people"?)

I suppose the most important thing is that the Wikipedia effort stay on
track, aim for high standards of truth, fairness and independence, and
remain true to the initial concept.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  5 19:15:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:15:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.05 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.111507.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Happy St. Nicolas Day to all of you who celebrate it!

When I grew up in Northern Germany we children had to polish our (best)
shoes on the evening of December 5, then put one shoe (with growing
prosperity a pair of shoes) on a window sill and say a little Nicolas poem
in hope of the good man's nocturnal visit. If we were good all year, we
would find our shoes filled with goodies the next morning, mostly seasonal
treats, perhaps a small toy or two as well. There would be pieces of coal
for those that had been naughty, but I only knew that from hearsay, of
course.

Being on a cultural and linguistic continuum with the Netherlands and
Flanders and at the same time dominated by Germany we shared the St. Nicolas
tradition of the Lowlands and also shared the Father Christmas (and *
Christkind*) tradition of the German-speaking world. In other words, we had
double joy and *two* men visiting us at different times. We did not confuse
them, unlike our American brethren who ended up mixing the two traditions.

I you click on the link given by our Arend below you will be able to view a
nice selection of his St. Nicolas (*Sinterklaas*) photos.

Enjoy the season!

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Arend <arden1952 at gmail.com>
Subject: Uitnodiging voor het bekijken van het Picasa-webalbum van Arend:
sint 2008

Moi Lèeglaanders

Op onderstaond adres daor stiet de ienege nog echte sunterklaos.

Hij is op de foto's zien verjaordag an 't vieren op een schoele in 't
Oogeveine.
En ik mut zeggen da'k as goedheiligman der een plezierige mörgen an ehad
hebbe.
Mar de kiender die hadden der 't mieste plezier an.

*sint 2008*

Juliana van Stolbergschool -

5 dec. 2008
van *Arend*

Sint tijdens zijn verjaardag op school


 Album weergeven<http://picasaweb.google.nl/lh/sredir?uname=arden1952&target=ALBUM&id=5276350884530499521&authkey=xjMOSzbhxoo&feat=email>
Diavoorstelling
afspelen<http://picasaweb.google.nl/lh/sredir?uname=arden1952&target=ALBUM&id=5276350884530499521&authkey=xjMOSzbhxoo&feat=email&mode=SLIDESHOW>
 Als u problemen ondervindt bij het weergeven van dit e-mailbericht,
kopieert en plakt u het volgende in uw browser:
http://picasaweb.google.nl/lh/sredir?uname=arden1952&target=ALBUM&id=5276350884530499521&authkey=xjMOSzbhxoo&feat=email
Als u uw foto's wilt delen of een bericht wilt ontvangen wanneer uw vrienden
foto's delen, meldt u zich aan voor uw eigen gratis account voor
Picasa-webalbums <http://picasaweb.google.nl/>.
 <http://picasaweb.google.nl/>
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  5 19:16:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.05 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.111653.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: "ds" <dstokely at infionline.net>
Subject: Etymology

I've just come across, a day or two late, the postings on"rag", mentioning
music with a ragtime beat.  For several years now I've been involved
with (ahem) the world's finest ragtime piano player (concert here the end of
January).  He's gone into history over the subject and said that back a
hundred and some years ago that kind of music was critically referred to as
"ragged time".  The mention by Kevin Caldwell of the syncopated beat sounds
about right, and I love the music.



David Stokely

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  5 19:18:32 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:18:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.05 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.111832.0800.>

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: orthography

Dear Lowlanders,

A general linguistics question: is there a term for the study of writing
systems?

Thanks,

Kevin Caldwell

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  5 20:32:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:32:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.123226.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.05 (03) [E]

> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell
> <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: orthography
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> A general linguistics question: is there a term for the
> study of writing
> systems?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin Caldwell

Hi,

Sure.
In 1974 I made the term 'graphemics'.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec  6 00:26:01 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:26:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Music" 2008.12.05 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.162601.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:

Dear Lowlanders,

As the weekend is upon us and we are getting farther into the Northern
Hemisphere winter holiday season, please allow me to share with you one of
my favorite pieces of music, a piece that to me is one of the closest to
being "divine": *Ombra mai fù*.

It is the first aria in the opera *Serse* (*Xerxes*) by the baroque composer
Handel (Händel). The opera was a flop, playing only five times in London.
But this aria endures as one of the most beloved and performed pieces of
baroque music. For some reason, perhaps because it is a rarity and
"typically renaissance and baroque," I particularly like it sung by
countertenors.

Countertenors are adult males that sings in contralto, mezzo-soprano or even
soprano ranges, thus in ranges usually sung in by women. True countertenors
are rare and are highly sought after, even these days. I particularly enjoy
*Ombra mai fù* as performed by the following three countertenors:



   - *Andreas Scholl* (Germany) who has a more academic approach to the art
   - *Yoshikazu Mera* (米良美一, Japan) being very popular in Japan, having
   overcome the handicap of congenital *osteogenesis imperfecta* (brittle
   bone disease), a singer of traditional and popular Japanese music as well
   as of Western Classical music
   - *David Daniels* (USA) who combines Andreas Scholl's academic approach
   with what to me seems a remarkably clear and close-to-pure countertenor
   voice, like Mera rarely resorting to *falsetto* range



And how does this fit into the Lowlands scope of interest? There are two
reasons:



   - Handel was from Northern Germany, from Halle, close to the southern
   edge of the Low-Saxon-speaking area, and he later moved to England.
   - I have translated the aria in a singable form from Italian into
   18th-century English, Low Saxon and German, and I have posted this in my
   part of the Lowlands-L gallery along with video clips of the three singers'
   performances:
   lowlands-l.net/gallery/hahn_ombra.php
   (Please click on the pictures to access the video clips.)



Even though the words of the aria should stand by themselves, let me add for
academic interest that in the opera it is King Xerxes' love song to a
sycamore tree. Here is the preceding recitative with my English and German
translations (which I have not posted). (You will hear it sung in Daniels'
performance.)



*Frondi tenere e belle**
del mio platano amato
per voi rispende il fato;
tuoni, lampi, e procelle
non v'oltraggino mai la cara pace
ne giunga a profanarvi, austro rapace!*

**

Fronds so tender and so handsome
Of my sycamore tree beloved,
For you shineth fate and fortune;
Thunder, lightning, even tempests—
Let them ne'ermore upset the peace so precious
Nor rapacious southern winds come here to blaspheme you!

Zarte, wunderschöne Wedel

meiner Platane, die ich liebe,

euer Schicksal ist erleuchtet;

Donner, Blitze, wilde Stürme –

lass' sie niemals den geliebten Frieden stören
noch den gierigen Südwind kommen euch zu schmähen!


I hope that several of you will enjoy the music, words and performances of
the song. As I said earlier, to me they are close to divine. Should anyone
ever look for music to play in my memory, look no further!

Yours,
Reinhard/Ron**
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  7 03:28:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 19:28:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.DEC.2008.192812.0800.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

Subject: Old Norwegian "os" meaning hill, mountain or the like?



Hey Lowlanders,



already in january of this year 2008 we had here a little dispute about my
proposal to denominate the LS language variety of my home region
"Osna-Sassisk", and by that about the LS name of my old hometown and former
prince-bishop's diocese Osnabrück.



In the following month, together with LL-friend Olaf Bordasch (though not on
the LL-List), who runs the best informing website on Westphalian LS
http://www.plattdeutsch-niederdeutsch.net/ , I had a productive effort about
the origin of the first part "Osna" of the name Osnabrück (the latter part
being clear as LS "brügge" [bridge]). We already came to the result, that
the "a"-part of Osna should mean water, river, but "Osn" remaining unclear
(there is an old hypothesis of "åsen", an twig of the Wotan god's family).



Yesterday, Olaf Bordasch informed me about an interesting finding on
http://www.onomastik.com/forum/about2926.html

where a contributer "saxo" makes the remark, that "os" in Old Norwegian
means "Berg oder Bergland" [mountain or mauntain region]. And this "saxo"
remarks justly, that this would better fit to the hills/mountains of the
Theutonian Forest. The name origin of the river running through Osnabrück,
today called "Hase", would then be something like "Osenaha" (with aha, ahwa
= germanic or indoeuropean for river, water "aqua"). Therefore Osnabrück
meaning town/settlement of/with the bridge over the river from the
mountains.



Because this finding could resolve the still unresolved question of the
origin of the "Osna"-part in the name of the old saxon settlement of
Osnabrück, I ask if anybody can say something about the hypothesis, that
there is an Old Norwegian / Oldnorsk or else germanic word "os/osn/osen"
meaning hill, mountain region or he like!



Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology


Dear Lowlanders,

My legal first name Reinhard tends to be seen as derived from *Reginhard* or
*Raginhard* and tends to be explained as meaning 'strong counselor'. The
second part is the ancestor of "hard" and in early times meant 'strong',
'courageous' and the like.

It is about the first part (which you find in the name *Reginwald* >
Reginald as well) that I am still wondering:

   - Old English: *regnian* to put in order, to prepare
   - Old Saxon: (**ragan* >?) *regin* fate, decision, order, decree
   - Old German: *regin* fate, decision, order, decree
   - Old Norse: *regin* gods, council
   - Gothic: *ragin* determination, council, *ragineis* prescriptor,
   counselor, *raginón* to rule
   - Germanic: **ragina-* council, decision
   - Indo-European: **rĕk-* ~ **rēk-* ~ **reĝ-* to order, to arrange

I am assuming that this is related to **reĝ-* 'to rule' from which words
such as "reign", "regular", and Latin *regere* 'to reign', (**reg-s* >) *rex
* 'king' and *regina* 'queen'. Furthermore, **reĝ-* means 'straight'
(related to the idea of 'order' and 'arrange'), also contained in Latin *
regula* 'rule'. Lastly, apparently words for governed countries are derived
from it, e.g. *rîk* and *Reich* (Old English *rīce*).

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, additions?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  7 18:52:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:52:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.DEC.2008.105221.0800.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Joachim: I cant find any word *os((e)n) meaning hill, etc in Old Norse, but
of course that doesnt mean it doesnt exist

Diederik

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Joachim: quick update, I suddenly realised I was stupid and forgot about the
modern Norewgian word ås meaning something like hill, of which the Old Norse
ancestor has to be found under the letter a:

*âs-s *

(3), an., st. M. (a): nhd. Bergrücken; E.: germ. *amsa-, *amsaz, st. M. (a),

Schulter, Rücken (M.); idg. *omesos, *omsos, M., Schulter, Pokorny 778; L.:
Vr

16b

Hope that helps

Diederik

----------

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Dear Joachim!

To start with, let me thank you for currently being my most reliable input
concerning westphalian platt. In my Swedish "exile" it is not an easy task
to learn Westphalian (which I never learned to speak while still living in
my home town of Lüdenscheid in the Sauerland). Thanks to you and various
sources on the net I may still one day dare to write a few lines.

Concerning old Norse (and modern Scandinavian) however, the Swedish exile is
definitely helpful. And yes: Old Norse "os/as" definitely means
"hill/mountain" and the term is still used in the modern scandinavian
languages. The Swedish word is "Ås". The term indicates a hill or mountain
with vegetation even on the top - in contrast to "fjäll" which is above the
tree border (i.e. a rocky or even icy top). Hence, "os" ought to be adequate
for the "Teutoburger Wald". "A/aa/å" is even today the Scandinavian word for
"river" and is a very common element of settlement names. I think we
mentioned the "os" element in some British settleement names before (in the
"danelag" area).

I am wondering though, if "os" and "a" appear in any other Low Saxon
settlement names?



Greetings



Wolfram


----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Dear Reinhard:


Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

You say:

My legal first name Reinhard tends to be seen as derived from *Reginhard* or
*Raginhard* and tends to be explained as meaning 'strong counselor'. The
second part is the ancestor of "hard" and in early times meant 'strong',
'courageous' and the like.

It is about the first part (which you find in the name *Reginwald* >
Reginald as well) that I am still wondering:

Old English:*regnian* to put in order, to prepare

Old Saxon: (**ragan* >?) *regin* fate, decision, order, decree

Old German: *regin* fate, decision, order, decree

Old Norse: *regin* gods, council

Gothic: *ragin* determination, council, *ragineis* prescriptor, counselor, *
raginón* to rule

Germanic: **ragina-* council, decision

Indo-European: **rĕk-* ~ **rēk-* ~ **reĝ-* to order, to arrange...........



Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, additions?



Mark:

Please add (for general deluctation) an alternative root 'Rein':

Nederlands: *rein* clean, pure, innocent (fig).

    &

Hoogduits: *rein*

Middelnederlands: *reine* / *rëne*

Latyns: *cernere* beslis, skei

Grieks: *krinen* beslis, sif, skei (laasgenoemde twee - algemene ouer
betekenis),

    verder verbind met *krisis*, *kritiek*, *kritikus*, *kritiseer*

(Old Boshoff en Nienaber - Afrikaanse Etimologie)



Apart from that; to go off on a limb, if (purely in fun, I insist) I may
throw discretion to the winds & *'folk etymologise', extrapolating* *from*

Afrikaans: *lafhart* coward to

               *   reinhart* pure-hearted

    I think I have you pinned down, Reinhart; heh, heh, heh.



Yrs,

Mark


----------

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Beste Reinhard,



you wrote:



My legal first name Reinhard tends to be seen as derived from *Reginhard* or
*Raginhard* and tends to be explained as meaning 'strong counselor'. The
second part is the ancestor of "hard" and in early times meant 'strong',
'courageous' and the like.



Why not go the direct way and presume 'rein' in the same sense as it
still has today as 'pure', 'clean'?



In GRIMM I found:



*REIN**, adj. und adv.*



*I.  Form und verwandtschaft. *



*a)  das wort ist gemeingermanisch: goth. hrains, ahd. hreini GRAFF 4, 1158,
alts. hrêni, altfries. rêne, altn. hreinn. altbezeugt ist das adj. doch wol
auch in der berühmten glosse der lex salica chrenecruda GRIMM rechtsalterth.
110. myth.4 534. KERN die glossen in der lex salica 109. im ags. mangelt die
entsprechung, hier hat schon früh clæne, engl. clean, ahd. chleini, mhd.
kleine das bedeutungsgebiet von rein an sich gezogen, ein vorgang, der auch
auf deutschem boden spurweise beobachtet wird (vgl. theil 5, 1088). aus dem
skandinavischen ist schwed.-lappisch raines, purus, norweg.-lappisch rainet,
purgare entlehnt (THOMSEN einflusz der germ. sprachen auf die
finnisch-lappischen 164). dem mhd. reine, rein entspricht mnd. reine und
rein, mnl. reene, reen und reyne, reyn. das nhd. rein findet sich
gleichlautend im nnl. KRAMER nieder - hochd. wb. 1, 312a, neunord. ren. die
monophthongisierte form rên oder rêne ist in der norddeutschen volkssprache
allgemein verbreitet.*



Couldn't _*Reinhard*_ be 'the pure-hearted' as well?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Mark and Jonny.

What you suggest is in fact the common folk etymology of the name. But
apparently - I assume on the basis of documentation - it is incorrect.

Apparently, *regin* is at the root of various names, including *Reginwald* >
Reginald, Reinald, and *Reginhold* > Reinhold. It is also related to the
Scandinavian name Ragne, as well as Ragnar which in German is Rainer ~
Reiner, Rainier in French (from *ragin+heri*).

I just found out that my name day was last Friday.

"Pure/innocent heart" ... I wish!

Regards, and happy second Advent,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  7 21:12:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:12:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.DEC.2008.131211.0800.>

===========================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

Moi Reinhard,, Mark en Jonny,

Mien woordenboek van veurnamen gef:

*Regin: *Oorspr. *Raad, raadsbesluit* (der Goden) heeft in namen noch
slechts versterkende betekenis.

Dus: *sterk, zeer.* (Vergelijk enkele van de onderstaande voorbeelden.)
Rein, werd ten slotte wel opgevat als *rein, zuiver. *Daar het een  onzijdig
woord was, kwam het alleen als eerste lid in Germ. namen voor. Vergelijk
Goth. *ragin,* raad, besluit,  *ragineis.* raadgever, raadsheer. In het Ohd.
slechts in eigennamen; Osa. *regan, regin, rein, rén,* versterkend in
*reginthiof
*aardsdief: Angels*, reg(e)n,* slechts met versterkende betekenis *
regnthéof,* aardsdief. Ono. *regin, rögn, * de beslissenden, de goden. Bij
een Germ. Wortel*, reg*, ordenen

Goodgaon,

Arend Victorie.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot, Arend.

I hasten to add that the *-hard* (~ *-hardt* ~ *-hart*) part is often
falsely assumed to be derived from an ancestor of "heart", especially in the
case of my name (in conjunction with *Rein-* folk-etymologizes as meaning
'pure').

In actual fact *-hard* (~ *-hardt* ~ *-hart*) does belong to the "hard"
group which in early times had the additional meaning 'bold', 'audacious',
'intrepid', 'brave', 'strong'.

It occurs in numerous men's names, such as Adalhard, Bernhard, Bogohard,
Burghard, Cynhard, Eberhard, Eginhard ~ Einhard, Ekhard, Erhard, Gerhard,
Meinhard and Willhard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  7 23:42:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:42:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.DEC.2008.154216.0800.>

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From: RBlaustein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (02) [D/E]

In a message dated 12/7/08 4:19:31 PM, lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM writes:
Moi Reinhard,, Mark en Jonny,
Mien woordenboek van veurnamen gef:
*Regin:* Oorspr.* **Raad, raadsbesluit* (der Goden) heeft in namen noch
slechts versterkende betekenis.
Dus:* sterk, zeer.* (Vergelijk enkele van de onderstaande voorbeelden.)
Rein, werd ten slotte wel opgevat als* rein, zuiver.* Daar het een  onzijdig
woord was, kwam het alleen als eerste lid in Germ. namen voor. Vergelijk
Goth.* ragin,* raad, besluit,  *ragineis.* raadgever, raadsheer. In het Ohd.
slechts in eigennamen; Osa.* regan, regin, rein, rén,* versterkend in*reginthiof
* aardsdief: Angels*, reg(e)n,* slechts met versterkende betekenis*regnthéof,
* aardsdief. Ono.* regin, rögn,*  de beslissenden, de goden. Bij een Germ.
Wortel*, reg*, ordenen
Goodgaon,
Arend Victorie.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot, Arend.

I hasten to add that the* -hard* (~* -hardt* ~* -hart*) part is often
falsely assumed to be derived from an ancestor of "heart", especially in the
case of my name (in conjunction with* Rein-* folk-etymologizes as meaning
'pure').

In actual fact* -hard* (~* -hardt* ~* -hart*) does belong to the "hard"
group which in early times had the additional meaning 'bold', 'audacious',
'intrepid', 'brave', 'strong'.

It occurs in numerous men's names, such as Adalhard, Bernhard, Bogohard,
Burghard, Cynhard, Eberhard, Eginhard ~ Einhard, Ekhard, Erhard, Gerhard,
Meinhard and Willhard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron


Dear Lowlanders,

And let's not forget  Richard --  from ric "ruler" + heard "hard"!

All the best,

Richard Blaustein

----------

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

Reinhard, my dear,



"Pure/innocent heart" ... I wish!



I never spent any thought to 'innocent' in relation to your person, but
'pure' sometimes really could be befitted to describe some of
your individual sides of character *g*!



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm


----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

> From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

> I am wondering though, if "os" and "a" appear in any other Low Saxon
settlement names?



There are quite a lot of "*aa*" rivers;

- in Northern France:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aa_(Frankrijk<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aa_%28Frankrijk>
)

- a long list on
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aa_(waternaam<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aa_%28waternaam>
)



In the Netherlands there is a town *Oss* http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oss but
I don't know the etymolgy

For *Ossendrecht *http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossendrecht gives
*Usse*(dune) + drecht



Regards,

Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  8 01:08:30 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 17:08:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.DEC.2008.170830.0800.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,



You wrote:



In actual fact *-hard* (~ *-hardt* ~ *-hart*) does belong to the "hard"
group which in early times had the additional meaning 'bold', 'audacious',
'intrepid', 'brave', 'strong'.

It occurs in numerous men's names, such as Adalhard, Bernhard, Bogohard,
Burghard, Cynhard, Eberhard, Eginhard ~ Einhard, Ekhard, Erhard, Gerhard,
Meinhard and Willhard.



Don't want to spoil your party, but I seem to recall that -hard, once it got
into French/Frankish hands, seriously deteriorated *s*. I mean, all those
nouns ending on -ard, when they were reintroduced in England bore a negative
meaning. What to say about:



stinkard, drunkard, braggard, dullard, sluggard, bastard, laggard,
niggard...



However, maybe the original idea was not necessarily to create a pejorative
noun, but rather to emphasize a certain quality, be it good or bad. I guess,
the suffix "hard" was just meant to act like some sort of superlative.
Hence, "Ron" would be the one who is "reigning hard", "the supreme
ruler"...yes, the kahuna *s*.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Luc ... I think.

So French *-ard* does indead come from Germanic *-hard* and then came to be
imported back into Germanic (Dutch and English)?

Hence, "Ron" would be the one who is "reigning hard", "the supreme
ruler"...yes, the kahuna *s*.


Tsk, tsk ... You may call me pretty much anything you like, but leave the
Kahuna out of it! Besides, he's not the ruler. That would be an *ali'i*. The
Kahuna has you know that a *kahuna* is a spiritual leader. Most people don't
know that, though, so he asked me to tell you he forgives you.

Me ke aloha!

Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  8 19:08:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:08:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.08 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.110828.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (03) [D/E]

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.
> <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

[...]


> For *Ossendrecht *http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossendrecht
> gives
> *Usse*(dune) + drecht
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger

Hi,

Tja, er wordt gezegd dat usse de duinen zijn langs de Schelde.

Zijn er mensen die wat informatie kunnen geven over dit woord 'usse'?

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,



You wrote:



So French *-ard* does indeed come from Germanic *-hard* and then came to be
imported back into Germanic (Dutch and English)?



I'm not sure. Later on, when lying in bed, I was thinking to myself:
Mmm...maybe -ard should rather be tied with German "Art" and Dutch "aard",
kind (E). Or maybe both words -hard and -a(a)rd interfered (which could well
be the case, given the French disposition to drop initial h). Will have to
look things up.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx



----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Luc.

If it is indeed a Germanic loan in French I'd tend toward assuming
*-hard*is the source, perhaps mixed up with
*-(i)er*. This must have happened before the Norman invasion of Britain
then, considering all those words with "-ard" in English and their
occurrence in Middle English.

The presence of words with "-ard" and *-aard* in English and Dutch
respectively but their (apparent) absence in German and in
non-Dutch-dominated Low Saxon does indeed seem historically consistent with
early French contacts. It would be interesting to see if such words exist in
German dialects with long-standing French contact, such as Luxemburgish and
Alsatian, Alsatian in particular because Dutch as a medium can be ruled out
in that case. But then again, it could have been a matter of Northern
Frankish *langue d'oïl* only, most likely Old Norman, Old Walloon and Old
Picard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  8 19:24:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:24:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.08 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.112436.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

Here's an appeal for rounding up one or more persons willing to contribute
Picard translations of our Wren story:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

It would be nice to have all direct contact language varieties of the
Lowlands language varieties represented. We already have Walloon (
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/wallon.php) and Norman (
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/guernesiais.php), and further varieties of
those would be nice (such as Continental Norman).

In the east, we could do with a Kashubian (Cassubian) version.

Please see if any of you can arrange for those and any other language
varieties to be represented. Please bear in mind: the more the merrier, and
more than one version per variety is more than fine.

Please send any material to my private address.

Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  8 23:33:05 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:33:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.08 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.153305.0800.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.08 (03) [LS/E]

Namensfrauge "Osning", "Hase" und "Osnabrüg" löst!
               - Onomastics resolved (see ==> English below) -

Hey Liigländers,

Am 07.12.2008 um 19:52 schrieb Diederik Masure:

modern Norewgian word ås meaning something like hill, of which the Old Norse
ancestor has to be found under the letter a:

âs-s (3), an., st. M. (a): nhd. Bergrücken; E.: germ. *amsa-, *amsaz, st. M.
(a), Schulter, Rücken (M.); idg. *omesos, *omsos, M., Schulter, Pokorny 778;
L.: Vr 16b

Wolfram Antepohl schraif:

yes: Old Norse "os/as" definitely means "hill/mountain" and the term is
still used in the modern scandinavian languages. The Swedish word is "Ås".
The term indicates a hill or mountain with vegetation even on the top - in
contrast to "fjäll" which is above the tree border (i.e. a rocky or even icy
top). Hence, "os" ought to be adequate for the "Teutoburger Wald". "A/aa/å"
is even today the Scandinavian word for "river" and is a very common element
of settlement names.

Danke juu, Diederik un Wolfram! Tohaupe met dem wat Olaf Bordasch un ik
ruutfunden hewwet, schiint mi de naumensfrauge van "Osning" (nhd.
"Teutoburger Wald"), "Hase" (biäke) und stat "Osnabrüg" nu löst! Auk wan dat
nich der lesde "rechtskrachtige" beweys is (men kwellen fäylet van de
vorkarolingiske tiit), haule ik dat ergiewnis nu för waarschiinlik:

De Orsprunk is en germanske beteykneng "oos" för den Biärgrügge, de up plaat
düüdsk "Osning" heyt.
(Dat -ing mag wual ne aule endenge för landskap siin odr kümp daarvan, wat
Olaf Bordasch ruutfunden heft: van "egge" (germansk eggia) gliik "kaaler
biärgkam", d. h. eene verduwwelung, as de lüüde nigmeer wüst hadden, wat
"oosn" of "åsn" bedüüdet hadde.)

Un van dem oosn/åsn (biärgkam) hadde de biäke "Hase" so wat as "oosn-ah" (ah
för ahwa=water) as benöimeng kriegen, wiils dat de biäke is, de daar
entspringt un dar lank löpt.

Un de sidlenge of buurskup, dat duorp (later de stat), de ümme de foort, dat
brügsken tom üöwergaun, üöwerkwäären van de Hase herümme lag, was demfolgens
"Oosn-ah-brügge", nhd. Osnabrück nöümt, aulder auk Asnabruga/-brughi, in
goudem plaat un schriifwiis van daage:

"Osnabrüg".

(Up plaat/westfäälsk un middelniierdüütsk heft Osnabrück heeten: Osenbrügge,
Ousenbrügge, Eosenbrügge, Usenbrügge, Iusenbrügge, un gar volksetymologisk
verfälsket Ossenbrügge heyten. Mi schiint, dee hadden nig blaut de
bedüütenge van "Osn" vergieten, men auk den tosammenhank met der bieke
"Osenah=Hase" ...

Dat swediske ås un dat nynorsk ( un echt-norsk-dialektiske, nig
riiksnors=danske) "ås, aas" (o. ä.) for "biärgrügge" hewwet mi vannaumiddag
de norwiägeske gäste up eyner bestaahungsfiier in miiner bekantskap
versiekert. Se hewwet auk segt, dat dat norsk å/aa as IPA[o:]=lang-o un nig
[ɑ/ɔ/ɔ:] uutspruoken wert, waarhengiigen norsk "o" meer as [ʊ], binau [u]
lut, wan ik dat recht verstaunen hewwe.

***


Thank you, Diederik and Wolfram! Together with the findings of Olaf Bordasch
and me, I have the impression, that the name question of "Osning" (Teutonian
Forest), "Hase" (river) and city of "Osnabrück" now are resolved. Even if
that is not the last "justifiable" evidence (lack of precarolingian time
sources), is the result ad my advice verisimilar:

The origin is a germanish term "oos" for the ridge which in LS is named
"Osning".(The -ing might be an old ending for landscape or comes from that
what Olaf Bordasch has found out: from "egge" [germanish eggia] equal to
bare mountain ridge, i. e. a doubling, as the meaning of "oos" or "ås" had
become unknown.)

An off the oosn/åsn the river "Hase" became her name, something like
"oosn-ah" (ah for ahwa=water), because that river flow from and alongside
the mountain range.

And the settlement (later town, city) which is situated around the ford or
bridge was therefore named "Oosn-ah-brügge", NHG Osnabrück, elder
Asnabruga/-brughi, in good LS and ortography:

"Osnabrüg".

(In LS/Westphalian and Middle-LS Osnabrück was called/written: Osenbrügge,
Ousenbrügge, Eosenbrügge, Usenbrügge, Iusenbrügge, or even - folk's
etymologish bastardly (adulterated) Ossenbrügge [Oxbridge]. Apparently
people had forgotten not only the meaning of "Osn" but the relation with the
river "Osenah=Hase"...)

The Swedish ås and the nynorsk (and genuine, vernacularly dialectical Norsk,
not riiksnors=danish) "ås, aas" (o. sim.) for "[mountain] ridge" has been
reconfirmed to me by the Norwegian guests on a sepulture celebration in my
acquaintance, this afternoon. Furthermore they said, that norsk å/aa is
prononced as IPA[o:]=long-o and not [ɑ/ɔ/ɔ:], but norsk "o" more like [ʊ],
almost [u], if I understood well.

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  9 01:28:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:28:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.08 (04) [E/German]
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.172853.0800.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,



The -hard suffix in Germanic names proves to be the same word as present day
"hard" (E), and not related to Art (G), aard (D). Semantically there was a
shift from "hard, strong, strict, courageous" (see "hardy" (E) and "nen
ardì" (B) for a bold guy), to more of a pet suffix later on.

By the way, all those English and Dutch nouns on -ard derive from French
-ard, but French got it in turn from German(ic) -hard says Kluge.

You're in good company with this name, because Socrates has the same ending;
Greek kratos, kartos also meaning strength. Again the same word is Sanskrit
kratu, denoting spiritual power.

As for the first part of your name, there's Dutch painter Rembrandt who
shares it with you. Note that Rembrandt lived for many years in the Jewish
quarter of Amsterdam *s*.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: I scanned two pages from the dtv-Atlas of Namenkunde, for those who
would like more detail re etymology and classification of German(ic)
names...here it is:

Motivierung germ. Rufnamen

*In germ. Rufnamen sind bestimmte semanti­sche Bereiche wie Kampf oder
Tierwelt stark vertreten. Dagegen treten andere Be­reiche zurück, etwa Güte
und Milde oder die Pflanzenwelt, aus denen andere Völker gern ihre Namen
schöpfen.*

Germ. Frauennamen unterscheiden sich hinsichtlich der bevorzugten semant.
Be­reiche nicht wesentlich von den Männer­namen.

Die Kenntnis oder Beachtung der Bedeutung des Namens oder seiner einzelnen
Glieder spielte bei der Namengebung schon in ahd. Zeit eine ähnlich
untergeordnete Rolle wie heute, *wo selten jemand Reinhard oder Christiane
benannt wird, weil dies 'Rat' + 'stark' bzw. 'die Christin' bedeutet. *

Manche Namenglieder waren schon ahd. unverständlich, jedenfalls nicht mehr
im normalen Sprachgebrauch vorhanden; so war das übliche Wort für 'Ruhm'
schon ruom, nicht mehr germ. hroth, das nur in Namen wie Ruod[olf]
weiterlebte.

Doch zur Zeit der Schöpfung dieser Namen (v. a. in der Zeit der germ.
Völkerwande­rung) haben die Inhalte und der poetisch­erhabene Gebrauch
dieser Wörter - sie wa­ren großteils in der Dichtersprache beheima­tet - zu
ihrer Wahl beigetragen. Es ist auf­schlußreich, welche Auffassung vom
Men­schen und seiner Welt sich dabei auswirkte und die Namengebung
motivierte.

Die älteste Namenschicht nennt man Pri­märbildungen. In ihnen läßt sich noch
von der Bedeutung der Einzelglieder und von der Gesamtkomposition des
Rufnamens her eine sinnvolle Motivierung erkennen.

Davon abgesetzt wird die jüngere Schicht der Sekundärbildungen, bei denen
eine solche Motivierung nicht mehr deutlich ist. Namen dieser Schicht sind
durch neue, oft mechan. Zusammensetzungen von Erst- und Zweitgliedern
entstanden.

Bedeutung der Zweit- und Erstglieder

Den Zweitgliedern kommt als Grundwör­tem der Zusammensetzungen bes. Gewicht
zu.

Diese Zweitglieder dienen vor allem dazu, den Mann zu bezeichnen. Nicht aber
direkt und auf alltägliche Weise als Mann, Sohn, Held oder Krieger, sondern
indirekt, *sozusa­gen poetisch umschreibend, in bildhafter Ausdrucksweise
(durch Metaphern)*, wie man etwa einen Mann als Löwen bezeichnen kann, der
sich mannhaft für etwas einsetzt. Diese Bezeichnungen für den Mann decken
vor allem folgende Aspekte ab:

- Der Mann als Krieger. Abb. A bringt eini­ge Wörter für 'Kampf in ihrer
erschlosse­nen germ. Form (*).

Sie treten bereits im Ahd. nur noch in Namen auf. Dazu kommen Wörter für
Mut, Stolz, Erhabenheit und Glanz des Helden. Sie ordnen sich alle den
Namen­wörtern aus dem Bereich des Kampfes zu.

- Auf den Mann als Angehörigen eines Stammes kann sich auch das Namenwort
-fridu beziehen, indem es ihn als Hüter von Frieden, d. h. Recht und
gegenseitiger Hilfe innerhalb seines Stammes darstellt, während er als
Kämpfer nach außen agiert.

- Der Mann als Herrscher. Die betreffenden Zweitglieder in Abb. A beruhen
auf wal­tan 'herrschen', rihhi 'Herrscher, Macht', wart 'Wächter'; auch
Namen auf -heri 'Heer' (nhd. Walther, Günther) meinen eher den Führer, nicht
nur den Angehöri­gen des Heeres.

- Der Mann als Knecht steht nicht im Wi­derspruch zum Bisherigen, da er als
Knecht nur gegenüber Gott, Göttern oder gottähnlichen Mächten bezeichnet
wird.

- Zum Mann als Maskenträger vgl. altengl. grim 'Maske', zu den Namen auf
-bart den Volksnamen Langobarden, von denen be­richtet wird, daß sie sich
die Haare vor den Ohren lang wachsen ließen, damit es wie ein Bart aussähe.

- Der Mann als Tier: s. S. 27.

- Als Ding wird der Mann meist mit Bezug auf seine Kampf- und
Schutzfähigkeit be­zeichnet. Er erscheint als 'Schild' (rant), 'Schwert'
(poetisch durch brant umschrie­ben) oder 'Stab, Keule' der Seinen.

Die Erstglieder liefern als Bestimmungs­wörter nähere Ergänzungen; mit ihnen
wird bes. die Welt des Mannes stilisiert. Sie er­scheint vornehmlich in der
Perspektive des Herrschers und Kriegers (Abb. B).

So zeigt sich in der ältesten Schicht germ. Rufnamen der Idealtyp des Mannes
in einer kriegerischen Welt. Dies wird aus den histo­rischen Umständen der
Völkerwanderungs­zeit verständlich. Der Entfaltung der germ. Namenwelt
liegen aber auch sehr viel ältere Vorstufen zugrunde, die bis ins
Indogerma­nische zurückreichen könnten.

Diese Skizze der Bedeutungsfelder germ. Namen beruht auf
GOTTSCHALD/SCHÜTZ­EICHEL. Sie läßt sich wohl um manche Aspekte ergänzen,
schwerlich aber so prin­zipiell verändern, wie es SlEBS versucht hat. Nach
ihm spricht aus den germ. Namen »die erwerbende bzw. besitzende Tätigkeit
der männl. Namenträger, die hervorbringende bzw. behütende der weibl.« Die
Namen­wörter gruppiert er um friedliche bäuerli­che Wunschvorstellungen wie
Gedeihen, Fruchtbarkeit, Ertrag, Vermögen. Dazu muß er freilich
Kriegerisches oft gewaltsam in Friedliches ändern, etwa ger nicht von
'Speer', sondern von 'Begehren' ableiten, oder wolf nicht vom Raubtier,
sondern von 'schwer arbeiten' (vgl. niederdt. wulfen).

Theophor nennt man Namen, die einen Got­tes- oder Götternamen als
Bestandteil enthal­ten. Sie begegnen bei vielen Völkern.

In griech. Diogenes, Herodotos stecken Zeus und Hera; Apollonios, Dionysios
bedeuten 'dem Apoll bzw. Dionysos geweiht'.

Jo- (Je-, Ja-) und El-, -el in hebr. Namen beziehen sich auf die
Gottesbezeichnungen Jahwe und El(ohim), vgl:

Jonathan und Nathanael 'Jahwe/Gott hat gegeben', Jojakim (Joachim)
'Jahwe/Gott richte(t) auf, Jochanan (griech. Johannes) 'Jahwe hat sich
erbarmt', Joseph 'Jahwe möge (weitere Kinder) hinzufügen'; Elija/ Elias
'mein Gott ist Jahwe', Elisabeth 'Gott hat geschworen' oder 'Gott ist
Voll­kommenheit', Daniel 'Gott richtet" Ga­briel 'Gott hat sich stark
gezeigt, Stärke Gottes, Mann Gottes', Michael 'wer ist wie Gott', Raphael
'Gott hat geheilt', Samuel 'der (ungenannte) Gott ist El', Uriel 'Gott ist
mein Licht'. (S. auch S. 39)

Bei den Germanen begegnen einzelne Göt­ter in Rufnamen erst etwa seit dem
10. Jh. n. Chr., vor allem im Norden. Thor findet sich in der Wikingerzeit
in ca. 70 Rufnamen (Thor-sten 'Stein', -leif 'Erbe', -hild 'Kampf, -wald
'Gebieter'), Freyr in 10, Odin in 3. Wahrscheinlich waren, als die älteren
Ruf­namen entstanden, die germ. Göttergestalten noch nicht so als Personen
ausgeprägt. Je­denfalls finden sich in germ. Rufnamen vor dem 10. Jh. nur
allgemeine Bezeichnungen für göttliche(s) Wesen:

ans (Ase; zur Göttergruppe der Asen ge­hören Odin, Thor usw.) in Ans(h)elm,
-gar; alb (mythisches Wesen, Elf(e)) in Albe­rich ('Alb'+'mächtig'), Alfred
(+'Rat'), Al­boin (+'Freund'), Elftraud (aber Elfriede: adal
'edel'+'Friede');

got (etymolog. von gießen, wohl 'Wesen, dem man Opfer gießt'). Das Wort got
war vor der Christianisierung Neutrum und tritt daher nur als Erstglied auf:
Gotfrid, -hart, -lind, -hild, -bert.

Die germ. Kultverbände der Ingväonen und Irminonen sind nach den Gottheiten
Inguaz und Irmin benannt. Beide Götternamen fin­den sich in Rufnamen wie

Ing(e)bert, -brand, -frid, -borg, -gerd, -tr(a)ud bzw. Irma, Irm(en)-, Erm-,
Eh­rentr(a)ud, Armgard, Emma.

Aus solchen Rufnamen entstanden Fami­liennamen wie Engberding, Ingram,
ln­gerl(e), Enger(s), lng-, Eng(e)wald bzw. lrmert, Emmert, Armending,
lrmer, Em­rath, E(r)mrich, lrm(i)sch(er), Erm(e)ke.

In den religiösen Bereich führen auch die Namen mit run 'Rune, Zauber':
Runfrid, Hild-, Sig-, Ortrun. *Dies ist evtl. auch der Fall bei ragin-
(rein-) 'Ratschluß (des Schicksals?)' in Rei(n)mar, -hart, -frid, -hold,
-mund usw., woraus über 300 Familiennamen stammen: *

*Reimer( s), Reiner(s), Reimann, Rembrandt* ...

Theriophor nennt man Namen, die eine Tierbezeichnung als Bestandteil
enthalten. Sie waren bei den Germ. bes. beliebt, vgl.:

Arnhild 'Adler'+'Kampf, Rambod 'Rabe' +'Bote, Gebieter', Wolfgang/Gang(w)olf
'Wolf+'(Waffen)gang', Bernhard 'Bär'+ 'stark'. FÖRSTEMANN belegt über 140
Ruf­namenmit '-Rabe', 70 mit 'Eber-'.

Insgesamt begegnen in germ. Rufnamen fol­gende Tiere: Adler, Bär, Bock,
Eber, Falke (Habicht), Hirsch, Hund, Krähe, Marder, Ra­be, Roß, Schwan,
Stier, Widder, Wolf, Wurm (= Lindwurm, Schlange, Drache).

Viele dieser Tiere sind stark, aggressiv usw.; daher dürften solche Namen in
Verbindung mit der Vorstellung vom Mann als Krieger zu sehen sein. Dieser
wird auch von Dich­tern metaphorisch als Kampfbär, Schwert­wolf usw.
umschrieben, Vorstellungen, die auch in Namen wie Guntbern ('Kampf+ 'Bär')
oder Hiltulf ('Kampf+'Wolf) wieder­kehren.

*Ein lat. Evangelienkommentar des 5./6. Jh. bemerkt: »Die Barbaren pflegen
ihren Söh­nen aggressive Namen von Bestien, wilden Tieren, Raubvögeln zu
geben, weil sie es für ruhmvoll halten, kampftüchtige Söhne zu haben.« *

Dieselben Tiere wurden auch als Bildmotiv auf germ. Waffen, Schmuck- und
Ge­brauchsgegenständen gewählt.

Abb. A zeigt eine vergoldete Bronze­schnalle des 7. Jh. aus Seeland, auf der
ei­ne Männermaske symmetr. von Adler-, Eber- und Wolfsköpfen gerahmt wird;
da­neben einen Helmbeschlag aus Torslunda, auf dem Krieger mit Ebern auf dem
Helm zu sehen sind.

Diese Tiere spielen auch in den religiösen Vorstellungen der Germanen eine
Rolle. Die Bedeutung tierhaltiger Rufnamen führt da­her über diejenige
bloßer Metaphern für kriegerische Fähigkeiten wie Schnelligkeit, Kraft usw.
hinaus. Versuche, bestimmte Tier­namen direkt mit einzelnen Gottheiten in
Beziehung setzen zu wollen, etwa die Wolf­und Rabennamen mit Wodan, die
Ebema­men mit Fro-Freyr usw., engen allerdings die Vielfalt möglicher
symbol. Bezüge solcher Namen und Tiere zu sehr ein.

Theriophore Namen erklären sich vielmehr generell aus der Verehrung
archaischer Kulturen für das menschliche Fähigkeiten überragende Wesen
bestimmter Tiere, die bis zu ihrer Imitation in Form der Maskierung als Tier
oder autosuggestiver »Verwand­lung« in dieses gehen und so in die religiöse
Sphäre hineinreichen kann.

Zeitlich gesehen zählen die Wolfsnamen zur ältesten Schicht, die bis in
indogerm. Ur­sprünge zurückreicht, während etwa die Adlernamen erst bei den
Germanen aufge­kommen oder zu größerer Bedeutung ge­langt sind.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  9 15:51:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 07:51:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.075119.0800.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

quick update, I suddenly realised I was stupid and forgot about the modern
Norewgian word ås meaning something like hill, of which the Old Norse
ancestor has to be found under the letter a:

*âs-s *

(3), an., st.

Diederik,

Also remember that modern Norwegian has å for a brook or a stream.

Ben
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  9 18:17:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:17:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.101723.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Our Tom Mc Rae's corner of our gallery has been flourishing lately. Please
visit it once in a while.

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae.php

Underneath Tom's picture you will find a number of links that lead to the
various works of his.

The latest works we have added are two parts of a children's story Tom wrote
for a specific little girl.

(1) The Strange Tale of Cuddles the Crocodile
      http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_cuddles1.php

(2) Cuddles Goes Home
      http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_cuddles2.php

The are a lot of fun and reflect Tom's specific imagination and sense of
humor. You might want to share them with the children in your lives, also
with peoplethat have not forgotten to be children at heart.  I certainly got
a real kick and many a chuckle out of Tom's story.

Works that are similarly fun are the well-known fairy-tales Tom reworked in
Edinburgh Scots and set in neighborhoods of his native city:

Flo White an' the Sivun Wee Teuchters
[Little Snow White (Schneewittchen)]
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_flo.php

Jimmy Goldie an The Three Baer Bruvvers
[Goldilocks and the Three Bears]
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_baer.php

Shooie an Gretta
[Hansel and Gretel (Hänsel und Gretel)]
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_shooie.php

Wee Toaty Rid Ridin' Hewd
[Little Red Riding Hood (Rotkäppchen)]
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_ridinhewd.php

I have added a special children's category to the gallery and encourage
everyone to consider submitting their child-specific works (which may be
written, audio, video or visual art, or any combination of these). In fact,
I suggest we specifically address children on-line if we want our area of
interest to be continued. Perhaps a special kiddy corner presentation would
be in order.

Please share your thoughts or ideas about this.

Thanks for your effort and support, Tom!

Thanks and regards to everyone,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  9 21:28:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:28:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.09 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.132837.0800.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Roger,



Je schreef:



In the Netherlands there is a town *Oss* http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oss but
I don't know the etymolgy



Ik heb dit:



Oss, oudere vormen zijn Ohseno en Osne, die kunnen wijzen op een afleiding
van germ. *ohso 'os'. In de salische wetten komt voor Mallobergium Ohseno,
d.i. de malberg der ossen d.w.z. der 'ossenweiders'.



Zeer onzeker is een verklaring uit gallisch *ouksu 'boven' of *oukso
'hoogte'.



Groetjes,



Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 10 17:25:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:25:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.10 (01) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.10.DEC.2008.092514.0800.>

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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Lowlanners,



they really do it:



http://www.leeuwardercourant.nl/nieuws/regio/article4109509.ece



Some reactions of the readers (to find more look here
http://www.leeuwardercourant.nl/nieuws/regio/article4109509.ece/U_woont_aan_de_Veenpluis_Dat_wordt_de_Moark?showComments=1
 ):



*"geweldig hebben ze niet wat anders te doen dan deze flauwekul."*



*"Ik denk dat daar nog veel ellende van gaat komen m.b.t. postbezorging ed."
*



*"Grappig. Gaan de mensen daar nu ook niet meer naar het toilet, maar naar
het skythûs?"*



*"Is de bewoners naar hun mening gevraagd?"!*



Na, denn...! "Wat den'n eyn'n syn' Uul, is den'n annern syn' Nachtigall!"



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 15:37:06 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:37:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.073706.0800.>

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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.10 (01) [D/E/LS]

Beste Lowlanners,



yesterday I sent you a link about the intention to change street- and
placenames into Frisian in Fryslan/Netherlands:
http://www.leeuwardercourant.nl/nieuws/regio/article4109509.ece



Today Piet Bult (who got a copy of that yesterday's mail) sent me an article
from an insert of the same 'Leeuwarder Courant' just showing the other thing
in East-Frisian/Germany (i.e. change of Low Saxon street names into Standard
German). I found some additional links in German newspapers:

http://www.szon.de/news/kultur/aktuell/200811171040.html?_from=rss

http://www.ostfriesische-nachrichten.de/neu/index_volltext.asp?ID=24003



Let me give a short summary to those of you who aren't familiar with German:



The community of *'Großefehn'* in East Friesland/Germany decided to change
some Low Saxon street names *within a new commercial area* of their village
into Standard German because they experienced that customers and drivers of
any delivery services, who don't speak LS, have difficulties to find their
addressees.

By the scandalised leader of the German 'Frisian Party' this step is
suspected to be against the spirit of the times - in other regions of
Northern Germany people try to add, sometimes to re-invent the Low Saxon
names of their locations. And furtheron he fears that this affair could lead
to the result that the EU will get everything out of this matter and make a
decision about  any regularized standard for new street names.



I'll enjoy to hear your opinions!



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 15:34:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:34:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.073438.0800.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: "Howard Scott" <howliosta at gmail.com>
Subject: Language varieties

A German translator colleague was asked to translated this bit of
dialogue from German. The trouble is that it is not German. A couple
of Dutch translators have said it might be a variety of Flemish, or
even Frisian, but no one was sure (or understood what was being said).

Have uploaded the file temporily here:
http://www.attlc-ltac.org/MB-AOR-German_Transl.mov

If you can't access that file, here is an audio-old version:
http://www.attlc-ltac.org/Germanic-mystery.wav

I thought on this list surely someone could identify it.

Hartelijk dank,
Howard Scott

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Swedish?

Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 16:54:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:54:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.085447.0800.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (01) [E]

> From: "Howard Scott" <howliosta at gmail.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> A German translator colleague was asked to translated this
> bit of
> dialogue from German. The trouble is that it is not German.
> A couple
> of Dutch translators have said it might be a variety of
> Flemish, or
> even Frisian, but no one was sure (or understood what was
> being said).
>
> Have uploaded the file temporily here:
> http://www.attlc-ltac.org/MB-AOR-German_Transl.mov
>
> If you can't access that file, here is an audio-old
> version:
> http://www.attlc-ltac.org/Germanic-mystery.wav
>
> I thought on this list surely someone could identify it.
>
> Hartelijk dank,
> Howard Scott

Hi,

Norwegian.
[But not the kind you will hear in Oslo.]

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 16:56:57 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:56:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.085657.0800.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]

What on Earth has speaking a language got to do with finding a street?! I
have only the vaguest idea how to pronounce Mechelininkatu in Helsinki, but
I can still find it on map, and get there if I need to.



If they can't read maps, they shouldn't be driving trucks for a living.



Paul

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 19:02:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:02:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.110244.0800.>

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From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (03) [E]

Theo, are you sure it's Norwegian? I thought I understood most Nowegian
varieties but I can't underständ a word here. The setting might be an oil
rig, so that fits but ... Can you understand what they say? I can rule out
Swedish for sure.



Greetings



Wolfram



-- 

Wolfram Antepohl

Lindesbergsgatan 4

582 53 Linköping

013-125243

073-8031585

wolfram at antepohl.se


----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Howard,



I thought on this list surely someone could identify it.

The firm they're working for is "Sarens", which is the biggest Belgian
company in crane-business. Even on an international level, they're
keyplayers. They can lift (almost) everything you wish, even on Antarctica
they're doing business. By the way, the family name Sarens is one of the few
examples of a matronymicum, Sarens < Sara.

I grew up 5 km from the place where "Sooike Sarens" once founded his
company, in Steenhuffel. Recently they moved to Wolvertem, which is also
nearby.



The guy in the end said: "Met een en twee houten met glasanker, kan je een
fout geven" = "Mé iën en twië houte mé glasanker, kunde een fout geve"



The fact that he aspires the initial h in houte, means that he comes  from a
region northeast of a line connecting the north of Antwerp with Tienen. So
it's definitely a Brabantish dialect, more specifically what we call
"Kempisch" or "Kempens". The Kempen are a wooded area in eastern Antwerp.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 19:08:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:08:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (06) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.110848.0800.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (04) [E]

Paul wrote:
If they can't read maps, they shouldn't be driving trucks for a living.

Paul, you don't understand.
This is for the poor truckers  from New Zealand
who only read Maori written in Chinese characters...
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]

Mir fehlen ob dieses Blödsinns echt die Worte (Rademacher)

Da müsste doch eine Unterschriftenaktion wirken.
Ganz LLL gegen eine Handvoll Stadträte.
Besser: Die Welt (Globalisierung) gegen...
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de

>>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.10 (01) [D/E/LS]

Beste Lowlanners,

yesterday I sent you a link about the intention to change street- and
placenames into Frisian in Fryslan/Netherlands:
http://www.leeuwardercourant.nl/nieuws/regio/article4109509.ece

Today Piet Bult (who got a copy of that yesterday's mail) sent me an article
from an insert of the same 'Leeuwarder Courant' just showing the other thing
in East-Frisian/Germany (i.e. change of Low Saxon street names into Standard
German). I found some additional links in German newspapers:

http://www.szon.de/news/kultur/aktuell/200811171040.html?_from=rss

http://www.ostfriesische-nachrichten.de/neu/index_volltext.asp?ID=24003

Let me give a short summary to those of you who aren't familiar with German:

The community of /'Großefehn'/ in East Friesland/Germany decided to change
some Low Saxon street names *within a new commercial area* of their village
into Standard German because they experienced that customers and drivers of
any delivery services, who don't speak LS, have difficulties to find their
addressees.

By the scandalised leader of the German 'Frisian Party' this step is
suspected to be against the spirit of the times - in other regions of
Northern Germany people try to add, sometimes to re-invent the Low Saxon
names of their locations. And furtheron he fears that this affair could lead
to the result that the EU will get everything out of this matter and make a
decision about  any regularized standard for new street names.

I'll enjoy to hear your opinions!


Rademacher's reference to EU regulating street names of course only tries to
stir fears of centralism unadapted to local needs. (The old crooked bananas
bureaucracy thing) Of course the EU will never regulate street names.
Just as you try to stir fears of invented Low Laxon. I don't know no single
example of "re-invented" Low Saxon names. Please give examples.
Some people *felt* difficulties with their Low Saxon addresses. Not cause
"delivery services could not find them". I have read most of the media
coverage since the issue emerged in late November (I look upon all news
covering "Plattdüütsch" on Google News). I haven't heard a single example of
actual delivery problems or any other severe problems. The only problem is,
that they sometimes have to say the name twice or spell it. On the phone for
example. That's most likely true. I too live in a street with a Low Saxon
name and regularly have to spell it. But that's also true for many first
names (my first name is Marcus and I have to inform people regularly not to
write it Markus), last names (my last name Buck is very simple and I still
often have to correct people who try to write Bock [in a move to correct it
to a more Standard German form]), place names (Rademacher gives the example
uf Upleward), many other street names (I guess, the inhabitants of the
Cuvrystraße in the Inner City of Berlin for example have to spell their
streetname just as often as the Hockereestraat people from Großefehn) and
names in general.

Were the names difficult in any special way? Okay, Hockereestraat was kind
of (I am not even sure this is the right spelling, it's a relatively new
commercial area and not yet in any directories and not visible on Google
Maps for example. In the press it was spelled Hökereestraat sometimes).
Schoosterstraat and Sniederstraat are not very hard to spell. And
Timmermannsring is even easier than the new name Hanomagstraße. Großefehn is
near to the Dutch border. If the companies in the commercial area Ulbargen
want to trade with the Netherlands too, I guess the Low Saxon names would
have been easier. And the special signs in the German names don't make it
easier in international trade. Perhaps Dutchmen can handle ß, but in most
other countries people will give up on ß, they often write a capital B
instead or similar things. Well, I don't know what kind of companies are
settled or want to settle in the area. Those commercial areas
("Gewerbegebiet") often consist of rather low level commerce (car washes,
carpentry, locksmithery, car dealers etc.) and not international business.
If this kind of commerce would be settling there, I could hardly understand,
why the names should pose problems, cause they would mostly have regional
customers and regional suppliers.

I have to admit, it's kind of a media bubble. It was pure chance that a
journalist was present on the council meeting of the Großefehn council and
covered the decision in the local newspaper from where it made its way into
national newspapers. If the journalist wouldn't have been present, it would
have went through unnoticed. That's a sad thing, there should be much more
awareness for things like that. It shouldn't be possible that things like
that go through unnoticed. Jonny, imagine Großefehn would have decided to
name the streets after people from the resistance against the Nazis in 2005,
when the commercial area was set up, and now in 2008 they would decide that
the names of those resistance members are too hard to spell and they want to
change it to names easier to spell. That would have been a national scandal!
Großefehn erasing resistance members from their streets!
It's irrational. From a pragmatic point of view it should be acceptable to
change both the Low Saxon names and the names of hard-to-spell resistance
members to easier ones without anyone objecting. But people still object,
cause they have emotions. They don't like people who want to stop Nazi
resistance commemoration, even if the commemoration is just three years old.
And it should be just as accepted to not like people who want to abolish the
cultural endurance of Low Saxon on the public, even if it is only three year
old.

Marcus Buck

PS: You too mentioned the move to Frisian names. Actually I am not a friend
of such moves. I am all supporting the move to fully recognize Frisian and
give it all the same rights, but that should not mean to abolish the Dutch
name. It's okay to write both names on the town signs or even to write the
Frisian name in big letters and the Dutch name in small, and it's okay to
write official documents in Frisian. But the Dutch name shouldn't be erased.
Why can't towns have two official names? One Frisian, one Dutch? "Official"
doesn't mean "only one".
(But I am anti-status-quo. Many people only look at the status quo and
support equal rights in cases like "Estonian vs. Russian" in Estonia. I
personally regard this as an invader/defender situation and would recognize
the right of the Estonians to put pressure on the Russians. As long as it's
not 'op'pression and a fair kind of pressure. The case of Dutch vs. Frisian
is similar. Frisian has the right to put pressure on Dutch but not to
'op'press Dutch [like erasing their place names].)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 15:10:31 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:10:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.12 (01) [D]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.DEC.2008.071031.0800.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.09 (03) [D]

Dag,

In Frans-Vlaanderen is een dorp dat 'Oxelaëre' heet.

In zijn oudste vorm wordt dat osclarum (1115) en ook Osclare (1122)

De uitleg ervoor :

< Germaans ansu = God(?) + hlaêri = moerassige beboste grond.

Het eerste element kan natuurlijk ook van 'os' komen, naargelang de uitleg
van Gysseling of Dauzat.



Groetjes,

Luc Vanbrabant

Oekene


From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Roger,



Je schreef:



In the Netherlands there is a town *Oss* http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oss but
I don't know the etymolgy



Ik heb dit:



Oss, oudere vormen zijn Ohseno en Osne, die kunnen wijzen op een afleiding
van germ. *ohso 'os'. In de salische wetten komt voor Mallobergium Ohseno,
d.i. de malberg der ossen d.w.z. der 'ossenweiders'.



Zeer onzeker is een verklaring uit gallisch *ouksu 'boven' of *oukso
'hoogte'.



Groetjes,



Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 15:12:50 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:12:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.DEC.2008.071250.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (03) [E]

Funny history of people recognising it as nearly any Germanic language from
frisian to swedish and a norwegian dialect! I have to admit myself too that
I wouldnt have seen it as Dutch before I read Luc's posting, but it is
indeed Brabantish once you realised that. Its no frisian or scandinavic
language for sure, I can tell at least.
Greetings, Diederik

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 16:14:13 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:14:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (03) [E]
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (04) [E]

Dear Paul,



you wrote:

What on Earth has speaking a language got to do with finding a street?! I
have only the vaguest idea how to pronounce Mechelininkatu in Helsinki, but
I can still find it on map, and get there if I need to.

If they can't read maps, they shouldn't be driving trucks for a living.

But you should keep in mind that these truck drivers come from all over
Europe: from Lissabon or Dublin in the West to Moscow in the East, and
from Helsinki in the North to Neapel in the South - Turkey, Greece and all
the new Balcan states unmentioned. Even the cited Dutch/Frisian newspaper
("Leeuwarder Courant") misspelled one of the quoted street names!



Probably the drivers are on a minimum level prepared for a basic knowledge
of Standard German, but not for EFLS ;-)...



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm


----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (06) [E/German]

Hm, if they would be consequent in Lower Saxony in renaming difficult-to-be-
pronounced-place-names into easier-to-be-pronounced-place-names they should
start with Braunschweig and give it its old Low Saxon name Brunswik back,
certainly for anyone, whether German, Low Saxon or a speaker of any other
language, much easier to pronounce.....or Moenchengladbach to Glabeek or
what about Schleswig-Holstein to the much more simple Sleswig-Holsten....you
name them!

Helge


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

I really don't know what the big deal is. Place names and, yes, street names
may vary from language to language, and on signs and maps they ought be
given in whatever are the locally or regionally official languages. Sure, in
some cases this will require trilingual labeling (e.g., Glasgow - Glesca -
Glaschu, Bredstedt - Bredsted - Braist, Trieste - Trst - Triest, Jaca -
Chaca - Jaka), in some cases even more (e.g, Nordfriesland - Noordfreesland
- Nordfraschlönj - Nuurdfresklun - Nordfrisland). But so what?

I have a problem with people wanting to reduce the names of a place to only
one. This includes the decision to make Fryslân the only name for that
province. I find that silly. Fryslân is the Frisian name, Friesland the
Dutch name, and the capital is called Ljouwert in Frisian and Leeuwarden in
Dutch. Surely this doesn't threaten the Frisian language assertion movement.

Jonny's mention of place names above provides more example material:

English: Dublin
Irish: Baile Átha Cliath

Portuguese: Lisboa
English: Lisbon
German: Lissabon

Neapolitan: Nàpule
Italian: Napoli
English: Naples
German: Neapel

Many modern maps list only the version  in the respective national languages
(probably with exceptions such as "Dublin", usually with "Baile Átha Cliath"
in smaller letters added, since Irish is officially the language of Ireland
but foreigners are not familiar with the Irish names).

Finland has no problem with bilingual (Finnish - Swedish) maps, including
street maps, as well as street signs. Add Sami versions ones in the north of
the country and in Norwegian Lappland (e.g. Koutokeino - Guovdageaidnu –
Kautokeino, Sodankylä – Soađegilli – Suä'đjel, Karasjok – Kárášjohka –
Kaarasjoki, Nesseby – Unjárga - Uuniemi). (But I am disappointed to find
on-line representation of Rovaniemi and Finnish Lappland in Finnish and and
foreign languages only, not in Swedish and Sami.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 17:28:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:28:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.DEC.2008.092835.0800.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (03) [E]

Re streetnames in Ofr., Ron you write

But so what?


Ron, I am somewhat surprised by the stance you are taking there
Greetings Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

I don't know what to make of your vague statement above, Mike.

I was saying that I advocate representation of *all* languages recognized
within a given locale. Of course, this presumes that all regional language
be indeed recognized. Personally I am appalled for instance by the
nationalists of Carinthia that keep removing or defacing place and street
signs with Slovenian names next to German ones.

Furthermore, I personally accept the fact that certain places have different
names in different languages, and this includes foreign languages. I would
find it quite silly if we had to switch to "Suomi" from "Finland", to
"Moskva" from "Moscow", to "København" from "Copenhagen", to "Bod" or "Bö"
from "Tibet" (which China wants us to call "Xizang"), to "Nihon" from
"Japan", to "Zhongguo" from "China", to "Chosŏn" from "North Korea", to
"Hanguk" from "South Korea", to "Deutschland" from "Germany", to "Praha"
from "Prague", to "Česká republika" from "Czech Republic", to "Magyarország"
from "Hungary" and so forth. These are examples in English only. There are
similar ones in other languages.

I don't know why this should be surprising, since it has nothing to do with
support for or opposition against fair language representation.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 22:06:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:06:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (05) [E]
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (06) [E/German]

Beste Marcus,



you wrote:



Okay, Hockereestraat was kind of (I am not even sure this is the right
spelling, it's a relatively new commercial area and not yet in any
directories and not visible on Google Maps for example. In the press it was
spelled Hökereestraat sometimes).



Yes, I fully agree. This seems to be a stumbling block.

The same thing I often have to experience with my own address: 'Dingwörden'
(meaning 'a terp where people meet for their council', literal a 'place to
think', probably from OS 'thenkian') mostly becomes something like
'Dink-Würden' or 'Denkwürden' ;-)!



If this kind of commerce would be settling there, I could hardly understand,
why the names should pose problems, cause they would mostly have regional
customers and regional suppliers.

I don't fully agree at *this* point. The greater part of East-Frisia is a
region of extreme low oeconomical structure. They still have got the
reputation of being 'behind the moon', and so we have to understand and to
endorse all of their efforts to take part in globalizing.



PS: You too mentioned the move to Frisian names. Actually I am not a friend
of such moves. I am all supporting the move to fully recognize Frisian and
give it all the same rights, but that should not mean to abolish the Dutch
name. It's okay to write both names on the town signs or even to write the
Frisian name in big letters and the Dutch name in small, and it's okay to
write official documents in Frisian. But the Dutch name shouldn't be erased.
Why can't towns have two official names? One Frisian, one Dutch? "Official"
doesn't mean "only one".

I wonder why we yet didn't hear any opinion from our Western neighbours.

Though this affair shouldn't be our business but a Dutch one only I dare to
write that I by and large agree with you again.

Where would it lead to if the Frisians over there really stop to aspect
Dutch as their first and official language? Perhaps next generation children
just able to speak a poor Standard Dutch? I just remember the words of an
elder East-Frisian collegue who often used to say 'Skall niags öberdreben
waorn' ('nothing should be overdone'), or, with the words of another friend
from the Lower Rhine area 'Allet, wat met *zu* anfängt, is' nit jut'
('everything starting with *too* isn't good').



Allerbest; have a nice weekend!



Jonny Meibohm



PS: Just as you try to stir fears of invented Low Laxon. I don't know no
single example of "re-invented" Low Saxon names. Please give examples.

I like to stir - both in people's minds as well as in a good 'Kehdinger
Hochzeits-Suppe' (a regional recipe of a soup from ox meat - cooked from
minimum one pound meat for each person!) ;-)!

But these really *are* my fears! Just remember 'Lüttensee' vs.
'Lütjensee'. Ein Schildbürger-Verhalten, welches die ganze plattdeutsche
Sache doch nur ins Lächerliche zieht! (A behavior of fools suited to make
the matter of our Low Saxon ridiculous!)

DS
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 22:09:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:09:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.DEC.2008.140941.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Ron,



I was saying that I advocate representation of *all* languages recognized
within a given locale. Of course, this presumes that all regional language
be indeed recognized.



Quite logical...on paper, that is. In a static, local situation.



Here in Belgium, where traffic is dense and quite often transit, drivers can
easily get confused. One second, you're heading for Lille (big city in
Northern France), the next moment nothing but "Rijsel" on every
signpost...then Lille again. Or you think you're really driving to Aachen
(in Germany), but all of a sudden it seems you're wrong 'cause all you can
see is "Aix-la-Chappelle".



Now, on a highway, this isn't sooo bad, 'cause you usually have enough time
to figure out what's going on. If you're on ring road around a big city,
it's much more difficult (and dangerous!) to put too much information on a
signpost. Bear in mind that in Belgium, on a ring road, the distance between
two exits is usually very small. If you then overload every signpost with
redundant information, this will only confuse a foreign driver. Moreover,
the ring road of Brussels (R0) is partly Flemish, partly Walloonian and
partly Brussels territory. So if we want to be good students, we'd have to
label everything in Dutch, French and even Brussels dialect. Maybe even in
German, as it is also an official language in Belgium. But not in English, I
guess. Come on, we'd end up with signposts twice as high as those for Mac
Donalds *s*.



I advocate a different (European) rule for international traffic (that does
not take local sensitivities into account). Once, you're off the highway,
it's a totally different matter.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 13 19:01:01 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:01:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.12 (01) [LS/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.DEC.2008.110101.0800.>

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From: "Klaus-Werner Kahl" <kwkahl at plattdeutsch.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Liebe Plattdeutschfreunde,

heute ist mein plattdeutsches Lexikon erschienen. Es ist mit rund 1.650
farbigen Bildern ausgestattet und beschreibt vor allem das Münsterland mit
seiner Geschichte, seinen Kirchspielen, Dörfern und Städten, seinen
Sehenswürdigkeiten, seinen Tieren und Pflanzen sowie großen Söhnen und
Töchtern. Darüber hinaus werden auch Dinge aus dem Alltag vergangener Zeiten
und der heutigen Zeit vorgestellt.
Das Naokieksel ist das einzige in seiner Art und durchgehend in
plattdeutscher Sprache geschrieben. Die Abschnitte über mehr als 1.300
Begriffe sind, wenn eben möglich, mit Bildern angereichert. Wie heißt es
doch so schön: „Ein Bild sagt mehr als tausend Worte!"

Laiwe Platdüütskfrönde,

vandage is mien platdüütsk Naokieksel ruutkuëmen. Et is met 1.650 farwige
Beller uutstaffeert un beschriw besunners dat Mönsterland met sine
Geschicht, sine Kiärspels, Düörper un Stiäden, met dat Bekikenswäde, sine
Diers un Planten un graute Süöns un Döchter. Buomdrup wäert auk Saken uut
dän Oldag uut völiëdene Titen un de nie Tiet vüörstelt.
Dat Naokieksel is dat ensigste in sine Wise un van vüörn bes ächten in Plat
schriëwen. De Päkskes üöwer mäer äs dusenddraihunnert Wäöder sint, wan't
iäben göng, met Beller riker maakt. Wu hät et jä so schöön: „Een Beld säg
mäer äs dusend Wäöder!"

Guëtgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best!

Dr. Klaus-Werner Kahl
Bornholtstraße 20
48477 Riesenbeck

www.plattdeutsch.net/platt/naokieksel.html
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 13 19:18:15 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:18:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.DEC.2008.111815.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (06) [E]

Dear Luc, Ron and the rest,



Please use truly international route numbers, instead of names



Jorge Potter

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at gmail.com>
wrote:

Here in Belgium, where traffic is dense and quite often transit, drivers can
easily get confused. One second, you're heading for Lille (big city in
Northern France), the next moment nothing but "Rijsel" on every
signpost...then Lille again. Or you think you're really driving to Aachen
(in Germany), but all of a sudden it seems you're wrong 'cause all you can
see is "Aix-la-Chappelle".

Now, on a highway, this isn't sooo bad, 'cause you usually have enough time
to figure out what's going on. If you're on ring road around a big city,
it's much more difficult (and dangerous!) to put too much information on a
signpost. Bear in mind that in Belgium, on a ring road, the distance between
two exits is usually very small. If you then overload every signpost with
redundant information, this will only confuse a foreign driver. Moreover,
the ring road of Brussels (R0) is partly Flemish, partly Walloonian and
partly Brussels territory. So if we want to be good students, we'd have to
label everything in Dutch, French and even Brussels dialect. Maybe even in
German, as it is also an official language in Belgium. But not in English, I
guess. Come on, we'd end up with signposts twice as high as those for Mac
Donalds *s*.

I advocate a different (European) rule for international traffic (that does
not take local sensitivities into account). Once, you're off the highway,
it's a totally different matter.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,
Jonny informed us:
"The community of *'Großefehn'* in East Friesland/Germany decided to change
some Low Saxon street names *within a new commercial area* of their village
into Standard German because they experienced that customers and drivers of
any delivery services, who don't speak LS, have difficulties to find their
addressees. By the scandalised leader of the German 'Frisian Party' this
step is suspected to be against the spirit of the times - in other regions
of Northern Germany people try to add, sometimes to re-invent the Low Saxon
names of their locations."
This news revolts me!!
As it does revolt Paul who writes.
"What on Earth has speaking a language got to do with finding a street?!"

Who would support a collection of signatures
inside LLL and beyond?
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (05) [E]

I have come across such re-invented pseudo-plattdeutsch names several times
here around Hamborg; the names are often misspelled, but most times created
out of good will and a wish to cling to tradition. Sometimes authentic old
names are partly brought into high german, such as Moorrege
http://www.amt-moorrege.de/, which should be "Moorreeg". A sorry business
:-)



Season's greetings!



Marlou

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (06) [E/German]

PS: Just as you try to stir fears of invented Low Laxon. I don't know no
single example of "re-invented" Low Saxon names. Please give examples.

I like to stir - both in people's minds as well as in a good 'Kehdinger
Hochzeits-Suppe' (a regional recipe of a soup from ox meat - cooked from
minimum one pound meat for each person!) ;-)!

But these really *are* my fears! Just remember 'Lüttensee' vs. 'Lütjensee'. Ein
Schildbürger-Verhalten, welches die ganze plattdeutsche Sache doch nur ins
Lächerliche zieht! (A behavior of fools suited to make the matter of our Low
Saxon ridiculous!)
DS


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Marlou!

You may be right in saying that "Moorrege" is a made-up name. But please
bear in mind that *Rege* (*reyge*) is in fact the earlier form of modern *
Reeg'* (*reyg'*) 'row' and that in many or most dialects *-e* deletion had
not yet occurred at the beginning of German language power encroachment in
the north. So, theoretically at least, the form "Moorrege" could have been
petrified as a Low Saxon loan in German.

This would be similar to the many Hamburg names that end with
*-twiete*'lane', which in Modern Low Saxon is
*Twiet*.

We have to be aware of the possibility of such names being *German*, not Low
Saxon, that they are early loans *from* Low Saxon.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (05) [E]

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de

>>



PS: Just as you try to stir fears of invented Low Laxon. I don't know no
single example of "re-invented" Low Saxon names. Please give examples.

I like to stir - both in people's minds as well as in a good 'Kehdinger
Hochzeits-Suppe' (a regional recipe of a soup from ox meat - cooked from
minimum one pound meat for each person!) ;-)!

But these really */are/* my fears! Just remember 'Lüttensee' vs. 'Lütjensee'.
Ein Schildbürger-Verhalten, welches die ganze plattdeutsche Sache doch nur
ins Lächerliche zieht! (A behavior of fools suited to make the matter of our
Low Saxon ridiculous!)

DS

But that's not an example of anything "invented". Low Saxon developed,
German conserves an outdated version of the former Low Saxon name.

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 13 21:23:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:23:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.DEC.2008.132324.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

In part due to our Roger Thijs's answer to my call for attention to the
Romance languages of Southern Belgium and Northern France in our Anniversary
presentation (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/), there have been two
additions on the Walloon front.


   - Bernard Louis submitted a second Walloon translation:
   http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/walon2.php
   - Lucyin Mahin submitted an audio file for the first Walloon translation:
   http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/walon.php


Thanks to the two kind gentlemen and of course to our Roger for these
additions.

It would be great to have versions in Picard and in other Norman varieties.
Gallo would be lovely too.

Let's make an effort on the Anniversary presentation front before the next
anniversary in April and May!

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 14 19:55:20 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:55:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.DEC.2008.115520.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (06) [E]

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics"
>
> I was saying that I advocate representation of all languages
> recognized within a given locale. Of course, this presumes that all
> regional language be indeed recognized.

> Quite logical...on paper, that is. In a static, local situation.

It can get bad in Scotland where, for example, you see streets called
"Baxter's Loan" being quietly changed by whoever does those things into
"Baker's Lane". This happens whether you can drive up the road or not.

Meanwhile in Whitby, England, we have "The Baxtergate", "The
Flowergate", "Haggersgate" and so on, but nobody thinks of changing
these to, eg, "Baker Street" because in England it's all called English.

> Here in Belgium, where traffic is dense and quite often transit,
> drivers can easily get confused. One second, you're heading for Lille
> (big city in Northern France), the next moment nothing but "Rijsel" on
> every signpost...then Lille again. Or you think you're really driving
> to Aachen (in Germany), but all of a sudden it seems you're wrong
> 'cause all you can see is "Aix-la-Chappelle".

For larger place names at least, I don't see why this can't be solved.
Suppose we had simple line-drawing icon for each town? Then it would
matter less to the driver if the town name became unrecognisable, as
long as the same icon was always displayed alongside it.

This system is already used for temporary diversion signs or fairs,
conferences and suchlike, eg:

Diversion
For Lyme Regis follow (square)
For Melplash follow (triangle)
For Bridport follow (circle)

After which the icons are used in direction signs.

It's not a perfect system but it's good backup and economical on
signage.

I have to say that signposting, at least in the UK, can be bad enough
that you can have this sort of problem without extra languages. You can
turn off the M18 for Doncaster and then the only signs you can find
point to Selby, Goole and Hull. You can only find Bishopbrigs from
central Glasgow in the winter because the branch of a tree hides the
sign at a crucial junction the other three seasons of the year. In
Glasgow if you want to get to somewhere in the north you might as well
be in France as on the south side of the river. All you can to is look
for the Tunnel.

Once I tried to take a shortcut in North Yorkshire and ended up driving
around a group of villages for an hour, that only had signs pointing to
each other. Hello? Doncaster? York? Leeds? Anywhere?

And ring roads! Don't get me started!  :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 14 20:04:00 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:04:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.14 (02) [LS/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.DEC.2008.120400.0800.>

==========================================
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.12 (01) [LS/German]

Beste Klaus-Werner,

Ik hebbe de webbestae besocht, dien book söt der echt good uut!
Könne wi dat ok bestellen vanuut Nederland? Ik bin wal interesseerd
in dat wark.

Met de beste gröte

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

From: "Klaus-Werner Kahl" <kwkahl at plattdeutsch.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Liebe Plattdeutschfreunde,

heute ist mein plattdeutsches Lexikon erschienen. Es ist mit rund 1.650
farbigen Bildern ausgestattet und beschreibt vor allem das Münsterland mit
seiner Geschichte, seinen Kirchspielen, Dörfern und Städten, seinen
Sehenswürdigkeiten, seinen Tieren und Pflanzen sowie großen Söhnen und
Töchtern. Darüber hinaus werden auch Dinge aus dem Alltag vergangener
Zeiten
und der heutigen Zeit vorgestellt.
Das Naokieksel ist das einzige in seiner Art und durchgehend in
plattdeutscher Sprache geschrieben. Die Abschnitte über mehr als 1.300
Begriffe sind, wenn eben möglich, mit Bildern angereichert. Wie heißt es
doch so schön: „Ein Bild sagt mehr als tausend Worte!"

Laiwe Platdüütskfrönde,

vandage is mien platdüütsk Naokieksel ruutkuëmen. Et is met 1.650 farwige
Beller uutstaffeert un beschriw besunners dat Mönsterland met sine
Geschicht, sine Kiärspels, Düörper un Stiäden, met dat Bekikenswäde,
sine
Diers un Planten un graute Süöns un Döchter. Buomdrup wäert auk Saken
uut
dän Oldag uut völiëdene Titen un de nie Tiet vüörstelt.
Dat Naokieksel is dat ensigste in sine Wise un van vüörn bes ächten in
Plat
schriëwen. De Päkskes üöwer mäer äs dusenddraihunnert Wäöder sint,
wan't
iäben göng, met Beller riker maakt. Wu hät et jä so schöön: „Een
Beld säg
mäer äs dusend Wäöder!"

Guëtgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best!

Dr. Klaus-Werner Kahl
Bornholtstraße 20
48477 Riesenbeck

www.plattdeutsch.net/platt/naokieksel.html
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 02:08:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:08:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.14 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.DEC.2008.180818.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 December 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.12 (02) [E]

Hi LLs,
Thanks, Ron, learnt something new (reeg vs. rege, twiet vs. twiete).
In general: If indigenous names are re-invented with wrong spelling,
doesn't this point to just one thing: the general decline of our indigenous
languages? I'd rather see a wrongly spelled name than none at all.
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Mike, Lowlanders!

Well, I don't see anything wrong or misspelled here, assuming that Low Saxon
names got petrified in their older forms when they became loans in German.

Misspelling came in when the Sass clique started respelling things in such a
way that words resembled their German cognates, in order to make written Low
Saxon look as German as possible. Among other horrible things, this led to
the spelling *Rehg* (because of the German cognate *Reihe*) 'row'. Ouch!

On an etymological note, *Twiet(e)* appears to belong to the "two" group of
words, probably because it denotes a lane or rather an alley that connects
two streets. I assume that the word is thus best translated as "close"
within Scottish contexts.

Some streets in Greater Hamburg seem to have retained their Low Saxon names
as their only names, and in many cases it is impossible to tell if they are
old, unless you study historical records. For instance, in Neuhof
(*Neehoff*in Low Saxon) there is a small street called Ole Karkhoff
(which would be
*Alter Kirchhof or *Alter Friedhof in German, "Old Churchyard"). At the Elbe
bank in Kirchdorf (Karkdörp) you find Finkenriek which in German would have
to be **Finkenreich* "Finches' Realm".

Many names are mixtures. For instance, there is Ellernholzdamm which I
assume is derived from Low Saxon Ellernholtdamm* *"Alder Wood Dam" which
should be Erlenholzdamm in German. Then there is Hohe Schaar which must come
from *Hoge Schaar "High Foreshore" which ought to be **Hohes Vorland* in
German, but I assume that *Schaar* came to be used as a loanword in local
German. People may not even have made a connection between *Schaar* and *
Vorland*. And then there are all those names with *-brook*. Low Saxon *Brook
* (*brouk*) denotes meadow land along a stream. For instance, there is
Grasbrook with no German version. The German cognate of *Brook* is *Bruch*,
and this word can be used in the same way, as it is in local names like
Hausbruch (which would have to be *Huusbrook in Low Saxon). And there is the
nature preserve with the German name Zollenspieker, which ought to be
*Zöllenspeicher in German and *Tollenspieker in Low Saxon ("tolls
store(house)").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 16:22:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:22:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.15 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.082207.0800.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.14 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>


Subject: Language politics

Misspelling came in when the Sass clique started respelling things in such a
way that words resembled their German cognates, in order to make written Low
Saxon look as German as possible. Among other horrible things, this led to
the spelling /Rehg/ (because of the German cognate /Reihe/) 'row'. Ouch!

Nu warrst du unreell. "Rehg" is veel öller as Sass. Kummt to'n Bispeel al
1854 in Raabe sien 'Allgemeines plattdeutsches Volksbuch' vör. Mi gefallt de
Schrievwies 'Rehg' ok nich. Dücht mi nich besünners klook (dat 'h' in
'Reihe' is ja etymoloogsch verwandt mit dat 'g' in 'Reeg' un dat 'w' in
'row'). 'Rehg' is keen 'misspelling'. Dat is hööchstens en 'unwitty
spelling'. Sass gefallt dat 'h' allerdings ok nich un bi Sass is 'Reeg'
vertekent. Sass hett denn ok nix "respelt" dat dat "as German as possible"
utsüht. He hett blot de Schrievregeln, de dat ok vörher al geven harr, en
beten op Reeg bröcht un 'normaliseert'. De Lüüd hebbt ok al vör Sass na
hoochdüütsche Schrievregeln schreven. He harr ok nich "as German as
possible" in'n Sinn. He harr "as recognizable as possible for people
educated in German-only schools" in'n Sinn.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.14 (01) [E]

On street and road names
Hi LLs,
Introducing a radically global system using numbers only.
The American have gone pretty far. Transferred to Europe,
 the axis Warsaw-Posen-Berlin-Hanover-
Arnheim-Den Haag would be indicated
E1E or E1W.-----  Done.
With streets running east-west and avenues north-south,all being numbered,
one can pinpoit an address on a map without ever having been there.
Good system? Practical yes, easy to use, yes,maybe applicable to
Hanover and London, but to Monschau and Maastricht?
Just a thought by Michael Wintzer
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 16:25:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:25:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.15 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.082521.0800.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.14 (03) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote:  "On an etymological note, *Twiet(e)* appears to belong
to the "two" group of words, probably because it denotes a lane or rather an
alley that connects two streets. I assume that the word is thus best
translated as "close" within Scottish contexts."

As in "twitten" [not sure about spelling as I've only heard it being said ]
- which my mother used as a young girl in Norfolk for a small (covered) way
between houses usually leading to houses in a courtyard at the back.

Worcester still has a number of these in its one remaining medieval street ,
as does Tewkesbury. In Worcester they are usually known as XXX Alley ; not
sure of the Tewkesbury term.

best wishes

Heather

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 16:27:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:27:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.12.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.082707.0800.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.14 (02) [LS/German]

HELP Lowlanders-
There are smart LLs and dum LLs
I belong to the latter group, in that
I have studied UTF-8 for years, and
know all about ist, but NOWHERE
do I find an instruction how to apply it
to my computer. There are instructions
for example to load from THE dropdown
menu, but the menu remains elusive.
Help Please.
Thanks, Mike Wintzer

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 19:36:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:36:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.113623.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.15 (01) [E/LS]

Dear LLs

Marcus schreef:

Nu warrst du unreell. "Rehg" is veel öller as Sass. Kummt to'n Bispeel al
1854 in Raabe sien 'Allgemeines plattdeutsches Volksbuch' vör. Mi gefallt de
Schrievwies 'Rehg' ok nich. Dücht mi nich besünners klook (dat 'h' in
'Reihe' is ja etymoloogsch verwandt mit dat 'g' in 'Reeg' un dat 'w' in
'row'). 'Rehg' is keen 'misspelling'. Dat is hööchstens en 'unwitty
spelling'. Sass gefallt dat 'h' allerdings ok nich un bi Sass is 'Reeg'
vertekent. Sass hett denn ok nix "respelt" dat dat "as German as possible"
utsüht. He hett blot de Schrievregeln, de dat ok vörher al geven harr, en
beten op Reeg bröcht un 'normaliseert'. De Lüüd hebbt ok al vör Sass na
hoochdüütsche Schrievregeln schreven. He harr ok nich "as German as
possible" in'n Sinn. He harr "as recognizable as possible for people
educated in German-only schools" in'n Sinn

Al weer wat tauliert, Marcus.

Ron, you remember, my thinking was more orthodox than yours, wanting to see
your Hanse-based orthography intoduced.

Over the years I have become more pragmatic. By no means should we make this
a Glaubenskrieg,

but continue Ron, Marc et al. to sort out the facts, all the facts.

Gratefully, Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

*Glaubenskrieg?* Absolutely not, at least not as far as I am concerned. It
seems you read too much into my efforts, Mike, when I was going no farther
than thinking about an auxiliary system to make up for the inadequacies of
the Sass system as it is widely used for the northern dialects.

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   - is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
   diacritics,
   - is easy to learn,
   - does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   - represents *all* phonemes.


Sass did not pick his system out of thin air. He took several things from
predecessors such as Rabe. But it is *he* who is commonly credited with this
because he tried to synthesize and regularize the *system* and others
followed him, which is why we are talking about the "Sass System" or Sass
Guidelines". This is what I was referring to before Marcus threw me the Rabe
curve ball.

Sass made quite clear that where accuracy is required an *ogonek* be used
underneath an "e" ~ "ee" ~ "eh" and "ö" ~ "ö" ~ "öh" to mark them as long
monophthongs and thus distinguish them from their unmarked equivelents that
stand for diphthongs.

Sass or one of his followers said that this is not necessary in the case of
"o" ~ "oo" ~ "oh" since in most dialects monophthongs and diphthongs have
been leveled to become diphthongs. However, the difference does remain in
quite a few dialects, and the "ou" diphthong in those corresponds to the
"au" diphthong in other dialects, such as those of Mecklenburg (as in *tau
liehrt*).

Somewhere along the line, "ä" ~ "ää" ~ "äh" came to be used as an
alternative for "e"-*ogonek* and "œ" ~ "œh" as an alternative for "ö"-*
ogonek*, since this is typologically easier. This is what the *New
Sass*people did, and I applaud them for having made the effort to
distinguish
monophthongs and dipthongs, as behooves all authors of dictionaries and
textbooks. It is these people and authors of linguistic literature that no
doubt Sass had in mind when he "prescribed" use of the *ogonek*.

Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
distinguished everywhere. At a minimum, they must be distinguished in
reference and teaching material.

The use of the German *Dehnungs-H* is becoming less and less controversial
as more and more people agree that it's kind of silly and certainly
redundant.

Likewise redundant and linguistically untenable is the Sass tradition of
representing final devoicing where and only where German spelling shows a
final voiceless consonant; e.g.

wide: *wiet* vs *wiede ...* (because of German *weit* vs *weite ...*)
but ...
dress: *Kleed* vs *Kleder (*because of German *Kleid* vs *Kleider*)

My point is that the choice of letters is not so important, but that proper
and consistent distinction of phonemes is very important. If the "official"
system does not properly distinguish them, then it must be *made* to do so,
or else an auxiliary system needs to be employed that does properly
represent phonemic structure.

What bothers me about the Sass system as it is *popularly* used (i.e. the
watered-down version) is that on the one hand it lacks necessary
distinctions and on the other hand it dictates unnecessary fluff such as the
*Dehnungs-H* and selective representation of final devoicing (which is a
phonetic detail and thus doesn't belong into a writing system other than a
phonetic one). In any case, the aim to make it look as German as possible
seems to override the need for consistency and integrity, and this seems
like a shaky foundation to me, as well as a disservice to learners, to say
the least.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 20:14:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:14:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.121421.0800.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.15 (02) [E]

There is a Twitten in Blaby in Leicestershire



Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

"Twitten" is listed in the English Wikipedia:

*Twitten* is an old dialect <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect> word,
used in both East <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Sussex> and West
Sussex<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Sussex>,
for a path or alleyway <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley>, which is still
in common use.[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitten#cite_note-0> The
word is also in common use in the London residential area known as Hampstead
Garden Suburb.

Elsewhere in the country, such alleyways are termed
*chares<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chare>
* (north-east England <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-east_England>), *
opes* (Plymouth), *jiggers* (Liverpool<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool>)
and *snickelways <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickelways>*
(York<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York>
).

For "chare" read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chare

For "snickelway" read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickelways

The picture of the snickelway you see there might as well be that of a *
Twiete* in old-time Hamburg.

I assume that "snickel" started off as a frequentive form of a cognate of
"sneak".

The German Wikipedia mentions "Twiete":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twiete

Not all that many true "Twieten" are left in Hamburg. Many have retained the
name but have become "proper" streets, and others were destroyed during WWII
carpet bombing.

Please let me emphasize that "Twieten" are not exclusive to Hamburg. They
can be found in much of Sleswig-Holstein, Lower Saxony and in parts of the
Westphalian area as well. I am not sure about other regions.

"Twete" (*tweyte*) is an alternative form.

Here you can see the closed-in entrance to a "Twiete" from a street:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3092/2593126814_f5df5e481c.jpg?v=0

Most of them are no longer closed in but have been made into
pedestrians-only alleyways; e.g.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/2593127170_a5591498de.jpg?v=0

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 23:29:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:29:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.152919.0800.>

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (04) [E/LS]

Dear Ron,

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   - is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
   diacritics,
   - is easy to learn,
   - does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   - represents *all* phonemes.

Well, what you also need is that it gets acceptance. Any change will
probably fail due to lack of acceptance, especially when a new system is far
away from what people already use. They would just say "Dissen neemoodschen
Kraam kann ik nich lesen." And thats it.

Sass made quite clear that where accuracy is required an *ogonek* be used
underneath an "e" ~ "ee" ~ "eh" and "ö" ~ "ö" ~ "öh" to mark them as long
monophthongs and thus distinguish them from their unmarked equivelents that
stand for diphthongs.

Well, it might have been nice to retain such a distinction. Actually I have
talked with Hein Thies (the author of the current Sass dictionary) about
that. His statement simply was: after decades of trying to teach people to
make a distinction they have finally given up. No one was willing to use the
ogoneks. The only thing they now do is to list alternative forms in brackets
like in
1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (Dääl): Diele
where the lack of the brackets in 1 indicates that the e is "zweitönig)
or
1) öwer: über
2) Över (Euver): Ufer
where the lack of brackets in 1 indicates that the ö is "eintönig". And
that's all. More has not been possible. Blame it on the North German
"Dickköpp", but you should better accept that or you will end up like Don
Quichotte fighting against windmills with eintönig and zweitönig wings. Good
luck.

Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
distinguished everywhere. At a minimum, they must be distinguished in
reference and teaching material.

Well, the Sass does just that. Actually this system of indication is
mentioned under "Hinweise zur Aussprache" in the introduction.

The use of the German *Dehnungs-H* is becoming less and less controversial
as more and more people agree that it's kind of silly and certainly
redundant.

Likewise redundant and linguistically untenable is the Sass tradition of
representing final devoicing where and only where German spelling shows a
final voiceless consonant; e.g.

wide: *wiet* vs *wiede ...* (because of German *weit* vs *weite ...*)
but ...
dress: *Kleed* vs *Kleder (*because of German *Kleid* vs *Kleider*)

??? So what? It makes words more recognizable. Given the fact that most
people in North Germany know less Low Saxon than my 6-year old daughter,
this is highly neccessary.

What bothers me about the Sass system as it is *popularly* used (i.e. the
watered-down version) is that on the one hand it lacks necessary
distinctions and on the other hand it dictates unnecessary fluff such as the
*Dehnungs-H* and selective representation of final devoicing (which is a
phonetic detail and thus doesn't belong into a writing system other than a
phonetic one). In any case, the aim to make it look as German as possible
seems to override the need for consistency and integrity, and this seems
like a shaky foundation to me, as well as a disservice to learners, to say
the least.

How abowt teeching the English e propa sistem of raiting first, one that
aims for consistency and integrity, one that is not based on a way of
writing that became obsolete with the Tudor sound shift. Mait meyke lerning
English a lot esier for all the world. And good lack for teeching that
sistem in Scatland.



Kind regards,

Heiko

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

ßanks, Heiko.

Well, the Sass does just that. Actually this system of indication is
mentioned under "Hinweise zur Aussprache" in the introduction.


Which is what I indicated in conjunction with pointing out that people don't
follow it.

??? So what? It makes words more recognizable. Given the fact that most
people in North Germany know less Low Saxon than my 6-year old daughter,
this is highly neccessary.


I can't believe you said "highly necessary" …

ßäiing, sät Nors Dschörmäns ahr tuh damm tu diel wis a slait twieking of an
existing ßistem is ßatsch an oolt exkjus for duing nassing ebaut se
garbidsch!

For some reason people are not deemed too dumb to learn English, French,
Spanish, Russian or whatever, most importantly Dutch, complete with the
actual spelling of those languages. But for some reason (which may in part
be authors' and teachers' own shaky knowledge and proficiency) they are
considered too dumb to deal with a regularized version of the spelling of
the original language of their region. And they are considered too dumb to
"recognize words" without them being spelled non-phonemically to make them
look German. This is so lame and such a negative testament to the
intellectual acumen of the people! Why should they get spelling hints to
recognize words from a German perspective? Do they get such hints in Dutch,
which is similarly relatively closely related? To accommodate those
supposedly learning-challenged North Germans, should we spell *wijt* vs *
wijder* in Dutch like Low Saxon *wiet* vs *wieder* (when the proper phonemic
representations are *wijd* ~ *wijder* and *wied* ~ *wieder* respectively,
versus German *weit* vs *weiter*)? This is a total oddity among languages.

I strongly suspect that this double standard, this "special case" scenario
created for Low Saxon, goes back to people still not quite believing in its
status as a language in its own right. It pains me to see that even some
people that profess to be its champions buy into this reduced status. For
why else would people need to rely on constant reference to German in this
case and not in cases of other languages that people learn? It's a *different
language*. You don't know different languages by osmosis. You *learn* them,
and in the course of it you learn their spelling systems, whatever they may
be.

We are not talking about exotic new inventions here, just about slight
tweaking to regularize the existing spelling and to do the language justice.

I did say that the *New Sass* people at least made an effort by providing
explanatory forms in parenthesis, and I credited them gratefully.

How abowt teeching the English e propa sistem of raiting first, one that
aims for consistency and integrity, one that is not based on a way of
writing that became obsolete with the Tudor sound shift. Mait meyke lerning
English a lot esier for all the world. And good lack for teeching that
sistem in Scatland.


This seems like another curve ball. It has very little to do with the price
of tea in China. English orthography is another can of worms with its own
history, problems and arguments. At least, everyone recognizes and respects
English as a language in its own right, enough so to not want to take
orthographic hints from other languages to make English more understandable.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 15:26:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:26:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.072635.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (06) [E]

> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (04) [E/LS]

> How abowt teeching the English e propa sistem of raiting first, one
> that aims for consistency and integrity, one that is not based on a
> way of writing that became obsolete with the Tudor sound shift. Mait
> meyke lerning English a lot esier for all the world. And good lack for
> teeching that sistem in Scatland.

I think that this illustrates one of the problems with English spelling
reform, as indeed any attempt at writing English more systematically
tends to do.

The thing is, we could never be in agreement about this because:

mait: I pronounce this diphthong differently and make the distinction
between, eg, "five" ("faiv") and "nine" ("nein") in English.

mayke: all vowels like this are pronounced as pure diphthongs in my
English.

Scatland: this flags your English as American in pronunciation for me.
There's no way left to spell, for example "cat" in my English, unless
you want to make it "caht" or something.

Of course there are many semi-regular and irregular differences between
American and English English that would be difficult to cover in one
spelling, for example, "serehnity" (American), "sereenity" (English),
garahdge/gahridge and so on.

Then Scottish English brings a whole new set of problems, for example,
as a Scottish speaker of English I would need the distinction between
the vowels in "five" and "nine", and between "w" and "wh", I would want
most of my vowels pure and I need a clear spelling of the letter "r"
independent of the surrounding vowels (so Shavian is completely
impossible for me to write unless I learn a whole new dialect of
English).

I think that in its expansion English has perhaps reached a point of no
return where it's only held together as one language by the common
orthography bolstered by a vast literature and a widespread familiarity
with accents other than ones own due to the film and TV industries.
There seems to be no way to spell it so that it can be written by all
native English speakers without it making even less sense to a large
fraction of them.

I'm not saying some reforms wouldn't be possible, such as the abolition
of "gh" and suchlike. But it can only be taken so far.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 15:29:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:29:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.072924.0800.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Deaf History Scotland

I thought this might interest some on this list.

Best wishes,

Pat

From:  Iain Hutchison, iain at KEAPUB.FSNET.CO.UK

Deaf History Scotland was formed at a public meeting in October 2008 in
Glasgow, with committee members from across Scotland. The new organisation
is finding its feet but has already produced a website at:
www.deafhistoryscotland.org.uk

More information can be had from the secretary, Dr Ronnie Scott, e-mail:
rscott at deafhistoryscotland.org.uk.

Iain

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 16:02:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:02:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.17 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.080237.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

===========================================
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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (02) [E]

Recently I often receive the same LLL mail twice, I was wondering if this
was a glitch with my provider or if everyone is having this? F.ex. now I had
3 new LL mails, but the last 2 ones were completely identical.
Greetings, Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mailings

That's odd, Diederik.

For what it's worth, I am subscribed myself, mostly in order to check on the
transmission of mailings, and I've been getting only one copy each.

I checked and found that you are subscribed only once. You might want to
check with your supplier. Perhaps they have a system where mail is
redelivered if there has been a "stutter" in the delivery system.

Once in a while it happens that people get duplicates because they actually
subscribed twice, different addresses, and then they automatically reroute
mail from one to another address. Later they forget they did that and wonder
why they are getting duplicates. (Some people keep a number of e-mail
addresses.) But, as I said, that happens rarely.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 16:52:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:52:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.085218.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 December 2008 - Volume 04
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

Franz Firla, who used to be a subscriber (
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/franz.php), recently published a book
about and in the Low Frankish dialects of his area in and around Mülheim on
Ruhr.

Please find some information about it b elow.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

*Anschrift des Autors:*

Franz Firla, Lindenhof 23b, 45481 Mülheim an der Ruhr, Tel. 0208/483073



*Neuerscheinung!*



Franz Firla: *RuSaKeWe*



Alte und neue Texte in den Mundarten der unteren Ruhr

bei Ruhrort, Saarn, Kettwig und Werden – Mit Wörterlisten Platt-Hochdeutsch



-         Erscheinungdatum:  18.10.08

-         bei  Hilberath &Lange (Hrsg.) in Mülheim-Saarn

-         ISBN: 978-3-00-026083-4

-         Preis: € 12,80



A. Zum Buch



Mundarttexte aus vier verschiedenen Orten in einem einzigen Band anzubieten,
ist nicht nur für die Dialekt - Region der unteren Ruhr eine ungewöhnliche
Neuheit.  Wenn man jedoch den Rückgang der Mundart allgemein betrachtet,
wird das Ziel der Pflege und Bewahrung der Ortsdialekte in Zukunft nur durch
überörtliche gemeinsame Anstrengung zu leisten sein. Hierzu wollen Franz
Firla und die Buchhandlung Hilberath & Lange mit diesem  Band einen Beitrag
leisten.

 „*Über Ihren Brief und Ihre Initiative zur Sammlung von Mundarttexten des
unteren Ruhrtals habe ich mich gefreut und beglückwünsche Sie zu diesem
Plan. Ich weiß, dass da ein großer Schatz begraben liegt, aber es wird nicht
leicht sein, ihn zu heben …"* (Professor A. Mihm, Sprachwissenschaftler der
Uni Duisburg)

Der Autor verließ sich bei der Bergung eines kleinen Teils dieses Schatzes
nicht allein auf die professionellen Dialektologen, sondern knüpfte
persönliche Kontakte zu Mundartkennern in Ruhrort,  Saarn, Kettwig und
Werden (RuSaKeWe).

Es soll aber vor allen Dingen ein Lesebuch sein, bei dem sich die Mühe des
„Entzifferns" mit Hilfe der sich jeweils anschließenden Wörterlisten lohnt,
weil man immer wieder überrascht wird  durch liebevoll-detaillierte
Beschreibung
eines verschwundenen Alltags, den bodenständigen derben Witz und durch so
manche noch keineswegs veralterte Lebensweisheit. Ganz nebenbei wird
die  Zusammengehörigkeit
der niederfränkischen Dialekte von „RuSaKeWe"
selbst erfahrbar.

Auf Anregung von Prof. Mihm erscheint im Anhang der komplette Bestand an
niederfränkischer Mundartliteratur in den Stadtarchiven von Duisburg,
Mülheim an der Ruhr und Essen. Damit werden weitere Nachforschungen der
Nutzer erheblich erleichtert.



B. Zum Autor:



Franz Firla (Jahrgang 1944) widmet einen  Teil seines Ruhestandes der
Erforschung und dem Erhalt der Volkskultur seiner Wahlheimat Mülheim an der
Ruhr. Anregungen, die er beim Stammtisch „Aul Ssaan" bekam, veranlassten ihn
zunächst, sich mit der Herkunft des Martinsliedes „Ssinter Mätes Vögelschen"
über das bereits Bekannte hinaus zu beschäftigen. Dabei wurde ihm deutlich,
welche historisch-kulturelle Bedeutung der niederfränkische Sprache bis in
unsere Region hinein zukommt.

Er übertrug mölmsche Mundartliteratur aus der Deutschen Kurrentschrift und
machte damit Wilhelm Eichholz-Sengelmann aus Kettwig-Umstand erstmals in
Mülheim bekannt. Das Theaterstück „Der Fährmann" von Chird Hardering wurde
von ihm durch Abschrift aus einem alten Rollenbuch wieder in die
Präsenzbibliothek  des Mülheimer Stadtarchivs überführt. Handschriftliche
Bücher  des Saarner Plattautors Willi Beekes legte er erstmals in gedruckter
Form vor.

2003 richtete er im städtischen Internet die Mundartabteilung ein, die zu
den umfangreichsten ihrer Art gehört und regional wie überregional gerne
genutzt wird. Die „Mülheimer Woche" regte er zu einer vierzehntägigen
Platt-Rubrik an, die er über drei Jahre hinweg am Leben erhielt und die nun
vom VHS-Kurs „Wir lernen Mölmsch Platt" fortgeführt wird. In seinem
Wörterbuch „Mölmsche Wööt", das u. a. in der Landesbibliothek Düsseldorf
steht, hat er inzwischen über 8000 Begriffe gesammelt.

Praktisch betätigt er sich als Mundartsprecher bei Auftritten des Duos „Jan
un Hinnerk", für die er zahlreiche Texte verfasste, und ist jedes Jahr als
Akkordeonspieler beim traditionellen „Chrubbel-Chrabbel der
Bürgergesellschaft Mausefalle dabei.

Als freier Mitarbeiter zweier Tageszeitungen schreibt Franz Firla
humoristisch-satirische Gedichte und Glossen (Hochdeutsch!). 1999
veröffentlichte er das Gedichtbändchen „Mein heiterster Ernst" und 2005 die
Glossensammlung „Dann doch lieber einen Bügelfisch…".
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 19:06:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:06:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.110637.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 December 2008 - Volume 05
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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===========================================


From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (01) [E]

You'd also have to have spellings with medial and terminal "r"s for Scots
and Americans, and many southwest English, and different versions without
that sound for most other British, Australians and New Zealanders.



Personally I like relicts like "night" and "light" (and for some Scots,
they're not relics at all).  These words link us to our history and to other
Germanic languages.  It's much easier to see the connection between "dogter"
and "daughter" than with something like "doata".



We saw the situation in China, where the revised characters rendered many
older books almost unreadable to many new learners. Of course, when it was
introduced the Chinese Communist Party was keen to expunge the "Four Olds",
so that didn't matter, but I wouldn't want to see a similar thing in
English.



As for making it easier for foreigners to learn, I haven't noticed the
Greeks, Thais or Russians bending over backwards to make their writing more
accessible to me, nor should they.  The Germans have made revisions to what
I always thought was a pretty logical system anyway, but in any case they
did it for their benefit, not mine.



I suspect a lot of this difficulty with learning is a smokescreen for other
difficulties; are we going to change our irregular verbs and plurals too? (I
gived the mans some sheeps and gooses).



Nobody is holding a gun to the world community's head to speak English. OK,
we sort of did once, and our historical heirs seem keen to keep up the
tradition, but the rest of the world either threw us out or we left. The
world is free to adopt Klingon as the international language if they want
to.  And I've no idea how you spell that.



Paul

You'd also have to have spellings with medial and terminal "r"s for Scots
and Americans, and many southwest English, and different versions without
that sound for most other British, Australians and New Zealanders.



Personally I like relicts like "night" and "light" (and for some Scots,
they're not relics at all).  These words link us to our history and to other
Germanic languages.  It's much easier to see the connection between "dogter"
and "daughter" than with something like "doata".



We saw the situation in China, where the revised characters rendered many
older books almost unreadable to many new learners. Of course, when it was
introduced the Chinese Communist Party was keen to expunge the "Four Olds",
so that didn't matter, but I wouldn't want to see a similar thing in
English.



As for making it easier for foreigners to learn, I haven't noticed the
Greeks, Thais or Russians bending over backwards to make their writing more
accessible to me, nor should they.  The Germans have made revisions to what
I always thought was a pretty logical system anyway, but in any case they
did it for their benefit, not mine.



I suspect a lot of this difficulty with learning is a smokescreen for other
difficulties; are we going to change our irregular verbs and plurals too? (I
gived the mans some sheeps and gooses).



Nobody is holding a gun to the world community's head to speak English. OK,
we sort of did once, and our historical heirs seem keen to keep up the
tradition, but the rest of the world either threw us out or we left. The
world is free to adopt Klingon as the international language if they want
to.  And I've no idea how you spell that.



Paul

----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hi, Paul!

Not to detract or distract from your argument, let me just add that Greek
orthography was in fact officially reformed in 1982. A single accent sign is
now being used in place of the old polytonic diacritics.

Please read here:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ellinika-info.php

Please compare the Wren text versions:

Monotonic (reformed) as originally supplied:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ellinika.php

Polytonic as "reconstructed" by yours truly:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ellinika2-utf.php
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ellinika2.php

However, reform did not include graphemic simplification of homophones, such
as *η*, *ι*, *υ*, *ει*, *οι* and *υι* now being pronounced [i], *ε*
and *αι*now being pronounced [ε] ([E]), and
*ο* and *ω* now being pronounced [ɔ] ([O]).

An argument in favor of reforming is that Greek lost tonality and developed
a single stress system at the latest by the early Christian era (1st century
CE, within the Hellenistic era: 300 BCE – 300 CE), and tonal diacritics
became meaningless and were considered an educational burden by many. There
is now a movement advocating reinstatement of tonal diacritics, the main
argument being that they are a part of the heritage and link today's Greek
with earlier forms. An argument against this is that the absence of tonal
diacritics does not change spelling to the degree of making older spelling
illegible, and those who wish to write earlier forms of Greek have plenty of
specialist resources to learn to do so.

This latter argument is also being used with regard to simplified versus
traditional characters for Chinese, except that many (though not most)
traditional characters are unrecognizable to those that learned only
simplified characters, and *vice versa*. However, nowadays many Mainland
Chinese, certainly better educated ones, teach themselves to read or even
write traditional characters (especially China's numerous calligraphers),
and traditional characters are more and more featured in publications as if
for decorative purposes. All this seems to indicate that there is widespread
private regret about simplification, though official opposition would be
problematic for obvious reasons. In my Chinese language program in Australia
we had to master both systems simultaneously. Many people, including
Chinese, find this very rigorous when I tell them this. Yes, we did have to
work extraordinarily hard and a good number of students fell by the wayside.
But it was certainly possible, and I am glad that I had this opportunity
that now turns out to have been a rare one. I feel equally "at home" in both
systems.

In the case of Mongolian, the traditional vertical (Uyghur) script was
replaced with a Cyrillic-based systems with the beginning of the communist
era in Mongolia and Kalmykia, not in Southern ("Inner") Mongolia (which is
under Chinese rule). Two or three generations did not learn the old system;
only specialists did. So the link with pre-communist-era literature has been
broken for the average person. Mongolia is now trying to reintroduce the old
system, but this proves to be problematic because the spelling is based on
the Mongolian language of the 12th and 13th centuries. It is excellent as an
inter-dialectical system, since pretty much all modern dialects are derived
from that earlier form. But it takes a lot of studying, especially for
writing purposes. In other words, the spelling of each and every word has to
be learned, which requires life-long learning for most people. It shares
this with the Tibetan and English systems.

The inter-variety utility of spelling systems oughtn't be undervalued. It
certainly is an option and may be found preferable to a system that
represents only a "high" dialect. This is not to say that only older systems
can be used inter-dialectically. Theoretically speaking, new systems can be
devised or older systems can be reformed for such a purpose. But such
proposals tend to be rejected and older systems tend to be preferred for
various reasons, including emotionally based ones.

Personally, I don't much care what systems are used as long as they have at
least some consistency and internal integrity. I do have a problem with
imposing a system onto a language (typically a minority language) from
another language (typically a power language) if such a system is not
suitable for the recipient language, in other words, has not be adapted to
the recipient language to properly represent its native structure. And there
is the additional symbolic aspect of treating minority languages as though
they were dialects or appendages of the respective power languages.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 20:12:27 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:12:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.121227.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 December 2008 - Volume 06
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (04) [E]

Where can we find a *Leseprobe*?
Mike Wintzer
  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

Franz Firla, who used to be a subscriber (
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/franz.php), recently published a book
about and in the Low Frankish dialects of his area in and around Mülheim on
Ruhr.

Please find some information about it b elow.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources


Mike,

I suggest you write to Franz Firla: <firla-franz at web.de>

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 22:47:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:47:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.144758.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 December 2008 - Volume 07
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (05) [E]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates<wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (01) [E]
>

> Personally I like relicts like "night" and "light" (and for some
> Scots, they're not relics at all).

This depends what you mean, of course.

In speaking English, Scots don't use the guttural "gh" (though we do use
it when it's written "ch" being a direct borrowing from Scots (usually
ultimately from Gaelic): loch, Buchanan, Auchtermuchty &c.

I personally, for example, will say "nicht", "richt", "flicht", "sicht",
"fecht" &c when speaking Scots, but "nite", "rite" &c when speaking
Scottish English.

So in an English spelling context, the "gh" isn't required for Scottish
English, though it is required for Scots.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

�

==============================END===================================

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 18 22:05:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:05:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.18.DEC.2008.140553.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 December 2008 - Volume 01
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 From: f.vanbrederode at home.nl
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.17 (03) [E]

 Diederik Masure wrote:
Recently I often receive the same LLL mail twice, I was wondering if this
was a glitch with my provider or if everyone is having this? F.ex. now I had
3 new LL mails, but the last 2 ones were completely identical.

Greetings, Diederik


Ron you answered that this is an odd situation. Well as a matter of fact it
so happens that I also receive LL mails twice now and than, There does not
seem to be a rule. Just this one: it's always LL mails. It does not bother
me, but since the question was raised…..
Groetjes,
Fred [van Brederode]


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mailings

Thanks a lot, Fred.

All I can think of is that it's some sort of stutter in the workings of the
list server. I know that occasionally, also in ordinary e-mail, one gets an
automated message saying that a sent message has not been delivered due to
problems at the receiving end. When I send my message again the recipient
tells me that he or she got it the first time. So I imagine that something
like that is at play, and the list server is extra eager.

If this is a real, widespread problem I will have to bring it up with the
folks at LINGUIST.

By the way, folks, some of you apparently beat their heads against the wall
trying to change their subscription configurations, typically changing it to
digest mode or to "no-mail" mode. If it doesn't work for you, please just
write to me and ask me to do it for you. It's no big deal at my end.

Also, when you take some time off during which you do not wish to receive
LL-L mail, please simply write to me and give me the dates between which you
want to receive no mail. I'll put it into my calendar and will take care of
putting you on and taking you off vacation (no-mail) mode. So please feel
free to tell me well in advance, or on the day of your departure. It makes
no difference to me.

I imagine that several of you are going to travel during the Christmas, New
Year and Hanukka season.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

¡Felices Posadas a nuestros queridos amigos mexicanos!

Для того, щоб наші дорогі друзі, які Східної православної найкращі побажання
з нагоди Дня Святого Миколая!

Нашим дорогим друзьям, которые являются Восточным Ортодоксом, наилучшие
пожелания по случаю Дня Святого Николаса!

За наше драге пријатеље, који су Источне православне, најбоље жеље поводом
Дана Св Николе!

За нашите скъпи приятели, които са Източна православни, най-добре желае по
повод Деня на св. Николай!

Pentru a ne dragi prieteni, care sunt ortodocsi de Est, cele mai bune urări
cu ocazia zilei de Sf. Nicolae!

To our dear friends, who are Eastern Orthodox, best wishes on the occasion
of Saint Nicholas Day!
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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:16:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.19 (01) [D]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.DEC.2008.111645.0800.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.18 (01) [E]

Hallo,



Bij mij komen die dubbele e-mails ook af en toe binnen.

Het is wel zo dat mijn computer ze gelijk samen in eenzelfde kleur zet om al
aan te tonen dat het dezelfde mails zijn.



Groetjes,

Luc Vanbrabant

Oekene

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 19 19:20:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:20:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (02) [E]
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (01) [E/LS]

>> Help needed - enjoyment of classical Low Saxon provided! <<



Dear Lowlanders,



last June (22.06.2008) I already informed you paranthetically, that I had
brought online one of the outstanding resources of classical modern time Low
Saxon, in this case Westphalian:

 F. W. Lyra: Plattdeutsche Briefe, Erzählungen und Gedichte..., Osnabrück
1844
------------------------------
==> Siit een paar daagen kan men dat bouk van F. W. Lyra - dank miiner
Digi-Book-Vadderscup (sponsorship) - "anner liine" liäsen [read online] or'r
runnerlaaen (man dat is in de originaale fraktuur-schrift):
http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/no_cache/dms/load/toc/?IDDOC=321236



Meanwhile, our friend Heiko Evermann has thankworthly cured the
OCR-processing of the facsimile and is now managing the proofreading of the
OCR-text on the Distributed Proofreaders side of the Gutenberg Project (FAQ
on this international cultural undertaking:
http://www.pgdp.net/c/faq/ProoferFAQ.php ).



This proofreading undertaking will result in an electronically readable,
searchable and evaluable text format of the Lyra work!



Whoever is disposed to know somewhat more on classical Low Saxon and
Westphalian and is willing to contribute to a sooner completion a this
project should join us at:



http://www.pgdp.net/c/project.php?id=projectID49403e70a3d57&detail_level=3



To participate in the project, you have to click the Register link right at
the top (if not already participant in one the pgdp proofreader projects).



I suppose, a big quota of the proofreading of Lyra's book will be done by
myself, but any help is desired. And I promise you - as I did a year ago
when calling for participation in Heiko's Lübben project of
Mittelniederdeutsches Handwörterbuch:



"believe me:

Dat is eyne wane gūde wīse, den rīkdom unde de vylfoldicheyt der

sasseschen spraken beter to kennen unde tor eygen nutsamicheyt to

hebben!"



I abstain from traducing this to Modern LS or English ... You are also
encouraged to forward this information to your possibly interested friends
or language students.



Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 19 19:57:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:57:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

Dear Lowlanders,



If you are not a native English speaker, how do you know that this phrase is
to pronounce English? Because you see, that it is not your mother language,
and because you have some knowledge of English, isn't it?



Se non sei italiano, come sai che questo frase è da pronunciare italiano?
Perché vedi che non sia la tua lingua materna, e forse hai qualche
conoscienza di lingue romane, vero?



Wan du nich met plaat düüdsk upwuassen bist, waaran miärkst du, dat düsse
sat plaat küürt wären mot? Wiils du gawwe miärkst, dat et nich haugdüüdsk is
un wiils du vellicht en bietken plaat eläärt häst, am besten natürdelk
oustwestfäelsk..., odr?



That to the question

wether a dialect should be written as close as possible to the main mother
language of people. What I mean is: when I see another language that I know
somewhat, I discover that by it's being different also in the apparence of
the text. So I'm not temptated to read it in my mother language
pronunciation, standard German. Otherwise there is the temptation to
pronounce the writing as used to. And that conduces to alter the dialect in
the direction of the main language, IMHO.



Probably the controverse between Reinhard F. Hahn and Heiko Evermann on the
orthography of Dr. Saß and the Fehrs-Gilde was taken as too special for the
LS-language cultures outside Germany. One can understand that. But for the
LS-culture in Germany itself the deficits of Saß orthography and the
unability to find another one more compatible for the whole range of LS
dialects in Germany is - not the main, of course, but - an obstacle for the
learning and the future of the LS language here.



Given that the above mentioned kurnouten and contrahents will understand my
Westphalian quite well, I continue by using it.



*2008.12.15 (04) Ron Hahn schraif:*

thinking about an auxiliary system to make up for the inadequacies of the
Sass system as it is widely used for the northern dialects.

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   - ① is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
   diacritics,
   - ② is easy to learn,
   - ③ does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   - ④ represents *all* phonemes.



Leywe metstriiders,



üöwer düsse 4 grundsette van Reginhart gift et je wual eynigheyt tüsken
allen bedeyligden, odr? Män wan dat an't beoordeylen van den ümmesettenge
geyt, süt dat licht anners uut.



Ik haule dat uuteneyne-setten üöwer de beste, biäter "am ehesten algemeyn
anniembare" schriifwiis, t'minnest met gliike grunt-riägeln, för wichtig,
wiil dat för dat Plaatdüüdske in Düüdskland na nich elöst is. Män ik kan dat
nich blaut as frauge van mügelke verbiäterengen van dat Saßke system der
Fehrs-Gilden diskuteeren. Dat system mag je för dat NoordNiidersasseske -
met en paar verbiäterngen - angaun (daar kenne ik mi nich noug in uut),
aawers för alle "Fäelsken" (west-/oust-fäelsken, brannenborgisken un
waarschiinlik auk anneren oust-"kolonialen" sassesken varianten) düüget de
Saß-schriifriägeln hinnen un vorne nich. Ik kan dat blaut am Westfäelsken
fastmaaken:



Alleyn de gebruuk van deynungs-e achter »i« , d. h. »ie« met Saß in »kriegen
(infinitiv! in participium praeteriti wöör'et je recht), Tiet, Bedrief,
Wief, fief" stats eyndüüdig »kriigen, tiit, bedriif, wiif, fiif« of
meynethalwen auk »krîgen, tît, bedrîf, wîf, fîf«, makt dat system för dat
Westfäelske un annere Plaat-varianten unbruukbar, wiil dey tweyluute van i
[fallende IPA ˈiːe, ˈiːə, stiigende iːˈe,  iːˈɛ usw.] dan baule nich määr
uutdrükt wärden küönt odr ümmeständlik as "íe, ié, iee" und derliiken.



De Saßke schriiwiis sluot van vörnherin de westfäelsken plaat-varianten uut
odr makt dat schriiwen daarin swaarer as nöüdig.



Sau viel blaut mal as dat vellicht wichtigste biispel för solken mangel van
dat Saß-system.



Reinhard F. Hahn wiiter:

Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
distinguished everywhere.



Jüst sau is dat. Un nicht blaut:

At a minimum, they must be distinguished in reference and teaching material.



RFH auk:

Sass made quite clear that where accuracy is required an *ogonek* be used
underneath an "e" ~ "ee" ~ "eh" and "ö" ~ "ö" ~ "öh" to mark them as long
monophthongs and thus distinguish them from their unmarked equivelents that
stand for diphthongs.



Met "ogonek" ment Heiko un Reginhard awers nich 'ne sowjetiske afweerrackete
of en compjuterspel, sünnern diakritiske teeken as hiir unner ą ę į ǫ ų,
häww'ik dat recht verstaun?



Wän jau, kan ik, leiwer Reginhard, dat nich as 'ne goude ümsetteng van
Hahn-riägel ① un ② anseyn. Un wat slägt de tiigensiite vör?



Heiko Evermann schraif *2008.12.15 (06):*

Well, it might have been nice to retain such a distinction. Actually I have
talked with Hein Thies (the author of the current Sass dictionary) about
that. His statement simply was: after decades of trying to teach people to
make a distinction they have finally given up. No one was willing to use the
ogoneks. The only thing they now do is to list alternative forms in brackets
like in
1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (Dääl): Diele
where the lack of the brackets in 1 indicates that the e is "zweitönig)
or
1) öwer: über
2) Över (Euver): Ufer
where the lack of brackets in 1 indicates that the ö is "eintönig". **



(Dat »öwer« in Noord-Niiersassesk "ööwer" heyt un nich westfäelsk "üöwer"
wil ik wual glöiwen un nich diskuteeren, wööre eynewäg en anneret tema.)



And that's all.



Echt jau, Heiko? Dat is et al? Blaut 4 biispellen met 8 verschillene
waart-fuormen un -schriifwiisen, un daarto twey riägeln, dey jedet kiind up
toroup versteyt ;-) ? (et doit mi leyd, ik häwwe dat eerst vandaage, biim 7.
liäsen binnen 2 jaaren - toeerst im Neuen SASS und dan hiir van di - und
naumal üöwerdenken verstaun ...) Un dan, wo sal dat gaun: jümmers wän me
nich weyt, of wat twey- of eynluutig uutspruoken wärd, mot me dat waart
flüks im "Neuen Sass" nauslaun, ümme to wieten,



of de indraag för dat waart määr dem biispel

1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (Dääl): Diele

odr

1) öwer: über
2) Över (Euver): Ufer

entspriäken döit?



Waarümme so kumpelseyrt, waar et dach auk eynfacker geyt, wän me nich up
haugdüüdske orthografie fixeert is? Miin vörslagⓇ ;-):

-----------------------------------------------------------

1. Tweyluut/diphtong => 2 vokal-boukstaawen.

2. Lange sülfstluute (langvokale) => verduwwelde vokal-boukstaawen.

3. Metluut-Verduwwelunge inspuaren!

4. ai/ay <=> ey Ünnerscheydeng.

-------------------------------------------------------------



Begründenge:



1. Tweyluut/diphtong => 2 vokal-boukstaawen.



Diphtonge wärdet jümmers as diphtong, dat heyt met twey verschillene
vokal-boukstawen eschriewen (triphtong logisk met 3).

(Dat kan me van Klöntrup siin Niederdeutsch-Westfälisches Wörterbuch lehren,
dat gift den klassisken oust-westfäelsken luutstand wiir.)



2. Lange sülfstluute (langvokale) => verduwwelde vokal-boukstaawen.



Lange, eynluutige vokale wärdet jümmers (ik sägge: jümmers, nich blaut in
sluotenen sülwen) met vokal-verduwwelung (aa, ää, ee, oo, öö, uu, üü)
eschriewen.



»Dar« (of »daar« of »d'r« of »'r«) blift eyn grensfal:  wän eyn uutluutendet
"r" folgt, wiil dat meest sülwst en half-vokal is [IPA ɤ, ʌ, ɒ], bin ik
daartou na nich entscheyden, of d'r auk jümmers de vokal (in dem fal »a«)
verduwwelt wärden sal, dat is för mi 'ne uapene frauge.



Un bii/bi gelöipige eyn-sülwer brukt me dat auk nich alstostrenk to niemen.
Bi eyn[e], en[ne], 'n[e] mot me dat vellicht sau maaken, as me dat häärt of
häären lauten wil.



(As Biispel kan me de strenge trennung van lang- un kort-vokalen bi Lyra van
1845 ("Plattdeutsche Briefe, Erzählungen und Gedichte" studeeren:

http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/no_cache/de/dms/load/toc/?IDDOC=321578&



3. Metluut-Verduwwelunge inspuaren!



Daar up düsse wiise de lengte van sülwen uut den vokalen hervörgeyt (wiil
lank-eynluuter jümmers verduwwelt sint und tweyluuter eynewäg twey
boukstaawen häwwet), kan de haugdüüdske bruuk van der verduwwelung der
metluute (konsonanten) na korten sülwen _entfallen_. Sau spuaren wi de
verduwwelden boukstaawen van langen vokalen daar - bi den konsonanten -
deylwiis wir in. (Blaut dän, wan de uutlaut-konsonant togliik de
anluut-konsonant van der folgenden sülwe is, wörde ik hem wiiterhen
verdu-w|w-eln.)



4. ai/ay <=> ey Ünnerscheydeng.



Wän schriifriägeln för määr as blaut dat noordniiersasseske plaat gelten
salt, dan müeten se auk de schriifwiis för dat tweyluut-paar [IPA ai, aɪ<vs.>
ɛɪ, ei] klaarstellen. An sik wööre »ei« historisk-graphemisk richtig för [ɛɪ,
ei], blaut wöörde ik dar rügsicht niämen up de haugdüüdske gewuonheyt, de
boukstaawenfolge »ei« automatisk as [IPA ai, aɪ] to liäsen un darümme för [
ɛɪ, ei] de schriifwiis »ey« för biäter haulen (as dat auk Ron Hahn faaken to
doun plegt).



As niäwenwärkung kan de ey-luut nich määr as lang-ee misverstaun wärden.



Liikers sölde dan, ümme den a-Tweyluut [IPA ai, aɪ] to schriiwen, »ai« of
»ay« wiält wärden, üm dat eendüüdig (un graphemisk richtig) to maaken. (Dat
haugdüüdske graphem »ei« kümp dan eenfak nich vör.)



De riägelung van de [ai, aɪ] tiigen [ɛɪ, ei] schriifwiis is för dat
westfäelske heyl wichtig, wiil wi - sünners in'm präteritum (vergaunentiit)
van starken verben - faaken [ai/aɪ] hewwet un nich »ee« of »ey« as im
Noord-LS.



In'm "neuen SASS (waardenbouk)" segget se darto - to de
boukstaawen-kombinatsjoun »ei« - niks, awers schriiwet för [IPA ai, aɪ]
slicht »ei« as im haugdüüdsken, dat is 'ne slechte riägelung und nin sinnige
gebruuk. (Dat hadden allerdings auk de klassisken westfäelsk-schriiwer as
Lyra, Klöntrup un Grupe uut dem Haugdüüdsken sau üöwernuomen, leyder.)



Sau, met düsse veer grunt-riägeln as biidrag to eyne algemeyn anniämbare und
lichte plaat-schriifwiis, wil ik et vör wignachten un nigjaar bewänden
lauten.



Schöüne Fiirdaage! Ik mag ju wual!



Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Krigst 'n dank, Joachim.

Du schreyvst:



Met "ogonek" ment Heiko un Reginhard awers nich 'ne sowjetiske afweerrackete
of en compjuterspel, sünnern diakritiske teeken as hiir unner ą ę į ǫ ų,
häww'ik dat recht verstaun?



Ja, dat stimt.

 Wän jau, kan ik, leiwer Reginhard, dat nich as 'ne goude ümsetteng van
Hahn-riägel ① un ② anseyn. Un wat slägt de tiigensiite vör?



Ik har man nich segd dat ik dat ogonek goud vinden dou, or dey Sass'sche
schrievwys'. Ik har later ook schreven dat nu in dey Sass'sche schryvwys'
staats „e-ogonek" „ä" und staats „ö-ogonek" „œ" or „oe" schreven wardt, wyl
dat dat nich so gedygen is.

Na myn verscheel hebt wy 't mang dey Sassischen varianten mit tou mindst
twey, villicht drey spraak-süstemen tou doun: *Nourd-Neddersassisch* (mit
Mekelnborgsch, Vörpommersch, Grönningsch un Nourd-Drentsch),
*Westfaalsch*(mit all dey annern varianten in dey Nedderlannen), un
villicht
*Oostfaalsch-Brannenborgsch* (or veyr gruppen wen wy Mennonytsch as
af-sünnerd an-kykt). Mank jüm givt dat veel regelmatige
luud-korrespondenssen, t.b. ee – iä, aa – ua, üü – üü – ui ~ iu. Teoreetsch
kunnen in elk val dey sülvigen boukstaven bruukt warden. In myn süsteem sünd
dat ee, aa, uy. Dat kun vör dey Westfalen nich noug wesen, un sey wullen
(half-foneetsch) ua staats aa schryven. Tou mindst weyr dat goud wen vör al
dey gruppen *eyn* grund-süsteem bruukt woyrd', egaal of dat Duytsch,
Hollandsch or „exootsch" is.



Meyr kan ik up stünds nich schryven, hev tou veel tou beschikken.

Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 19 20:00:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:00:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.DEC.2008.120051.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 December 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

Dear Lowlanders,

If you are not a native English speaker, how do you know that this phrase is
to pronounce English? Because you see, that it is not your mother language,
and because you have some knowledge of English, isn't it?

Se non sei italiano, come sai che questo frase è da pronunciare italiano?
Perché vedi che non sia la tua lingua materna, e forse hai qualche
conoscienza di lingue romane, vero?

Wan du nich met plaat düüdsk upwuassen bist, waaran miärkst du, dat düsse
sat plaat küürt wären mot? Wiils du gawwe miärkst, dat et nich haugdüüdsk is
un wiils du vellicht en bietken plaat eläärt häst, am besten natürdelk
oustwestfäelsk..., odr?

That to the question

wether a dialect should be written as close as possible to the main mother
language of people. What I mean is: when I see another language that I know
somewhat, I discover that by it's being different also in the apparence of
the text. So I'm not temptated to read it in my mother language
pronunciation, standard German. Otherwise there is the temptation to
pronounce the writing as used to. And that conduces to alter the dialect in
the direction of the main language, IMHO.

Probably the controverse between Reinhard F. Hahn and Heiko Evermann on the
orthography of Dr. Saß and the Fehrs-Gilde was taken as too special for the
LS-language cultures outside Germany. One can understand that. But for the
LS-culture in Germany itself the deficits of Saß orthography and the
unability to find another one more compatible for the whole range of LS
dialects in Germany is - not the main, of course, but - an obstacle for the
learning and the future of the LS language here.

Given that the above mentioned kurnouten and contrahents will understand my
Westphalian quite well, I continue by using it.

*2008.12.15 (04) Ron Hahn schraif:*

thinking about an auxiliary system to make up for the inadequacies of the
Sass system as it is widely used for the northern dialects.

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   - ① is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
   diacritics,
   - ② is easy to learn,
   - ③ does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   - ④ represents *all* phonemes.

Leywe metstriiders,

üöwer düsse 4 grundsette van Reginhart gift et je wual eynigheyt tüsken
allen bedeyligden, odr? Män wan dat an't beoordeylen van den ümmesettenge
geyt, süt dat licht anners uut.

Ik haule dat uuteneyne-setten üöwer de beste, biäter "am ehesten algemeyn
anniembare" schriifwiis, t'minnest met gliike grunt-riägeln, för wichtig,
wiil dat för dat Plaatdüüdske in Düüdskland na nich elöst is. Män ik kan dat
nich blaut as frauge van mügelke verbiäterengen van dat Saßke system der
Fehrs-Gilden diskuteeren. Dat system mag je för dat NoordNiidersasseske -
met en paar verbiäterngen - angaun (daar kenne ik mi nich noug in uut),
aawers för alle "Fäelsken" (west-/oust-fäelsken, brannenborgisken un
waarschiinlik auk anneren oust-"kolonialen" sassesken varianten) düüget de
Saß-schriifriägeln hinnen un vorne nich. Ik kan dat blaut am Westfäelsken
fastmaaken:

Alleyn de gebruuk van deynungs-e achter »i« , d. h. »ie« met Saß in »kriegen
(infinitiv! in participium praeteriti wöör'et je recht), Tiet, Bedrief,
Wief, fief" stats eyndüüdig »kriigen, tiit, bedriif, wiif, fiif« of
meynethalwen auk »krîgen, tît, bedrîf, wîf, fîf«, makt dat system för dat
Westfäelske un annere Plaat-varianten unbruukbar, wiil dey tweyluute van i
[fallende IPA ˈiːe, ˈiːə, stiigende iːˈe,  iːˈɛ usw.] dan baule nich määr
uutdrükt wärden küönt odr ümmeständlik as "íe, ié, iee" und derliiken.

De Saßke schriiwiis sluot van vörnherin de westfäelsken plaat-varianten uut
odr makt dat schriiwen daarin swaarer as nöüdig.

Sau viel blaut mal as dat vellicht wichtigste biispel för solken mangel van
dat Saß-system.

Reinhard F. Hahn wiiter:

Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
distinguished everywhere.

Jüst sau is dat. Un nicht blaut:

At a minimum, they must be distinguished in reference and teaching material.

RFH auk:

Sass made quite clear that where accuracy is required an *ogonek* be used
underneath an "e" ~ "ee" ~ "eh" and "ö" ~ "ö" ~ "öh" to mark them as long
monophthongs and thus distinguish them from their unmarked equivelents that
stand for diphthongs.

Met "ogonek" ment Heiko un Reginhard awers nich 'ne sowjetiske afweerrackete
of en compjuterspel, sünnern diakritiske teeken as hiir unner ą ę į ǫ ų,
häww'ik dat recht verstaun?

Wän jau, kan ik, leiwer Reginhard, dat nich as 'ne goude ümsetteng van
Hahn-riägel ① un ② anseyn. Un wat slägt de tiigensiite vör?

Heiko Evermann schraif *2008.12.15 (06):*

Well, it might have been nice to retain such a distinction. Actually I have
talked with Hein Thies (the author of the current Sass dictionary) about
that. His statement simply was: after decades of trying to teach people to
make a distinction they have finally given up. No one was willing to use the
ogoneks. The only thing they now do is to list alternative forms in brackets
like in
1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (Dääl): Diele
where the lack of the brackets in 1 indicates that the e is "zweitönig)
or
1) öwer: über
2) Över (Euver): Ufer
where the lack of brackets in 1 indicates that the ö is "eintönig". **

(Dat »öwer« in Noord-Niiersassesk "ööwer" heyt un nich westfäelsk "üöwer"
wil ik wual glöiwen un nich diskuteeren, wööre eynewäg en anneret tema.)

And that's all.

Echt jau, Heiko? Dat is et al? Blaut 4 biispellen met 8 verschillene
waart-fuormen un -schriifwiisen, un daarto twey riägeln, dey jedet kiind up
toroup versteyt ;-) ? (et doit mi leyd, ik häwwe dat eerst vandaage, biim 7.
liäsen binnen 2 jaaren - toeerst im Neuen SASS und dan hiir van di - und
naumal üöwerdenken verstaun ...) Un dan, wo sal dat gaun: jümmers wän me
nich weyt, of wat twey- of eynluutig uutspruoken wärd, mot me dat waart
flüks im "Neuen Sass" nauslaun, ümme to wieten,

of de indraag för dat waart määr dem biispel

1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (Dääl): Diele

odr

1) öwer: über
2) Över (Euver): Ufer

entspriäken döit?

Waarümme so kumpelseyrt, waar et dach auk eynfacker geyt, wän me nich up
haugdüüdske orthografie fixeert is? Miin vörslagⓇ ;-):

-----------------------------------------------------------

1. Tweyluut/diphtong => 2 vokal-boukstaawen.

2. Lange sülfstluute (langvokale) => verduwwelde vokal-boukstaawen.

3. Metluut-Verduwwelunge inspuaren!

4. ai/ay <=> ey Ünnerscheydeng.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Begründenge:

1. Tweyluut/diphtong => 2 vokal-boukstaawen.

Diphtonge wärdet jümmers as diphtong, dat heyt met twey verschillene
vokal-boukstawen eschriewen (triphtong logisk met 3).

(Dat kan me van Klöntrup siin Niederdeutsch-Westfälisches Wörterbuch lehren,
dat gift den klassisken oust-westfäelsken luutstand wiir.)

2. Lange sülfstluute (langvokale) => verduwwelde vokal-boukstaawen.

Lange, eynluutige vokale wärdet jümmers (ik sägge: jümmers, nich blaut in
sluotenen sülwen) met vokal-verduwwelung (aa, ää, ee, oo, öö, uu, üü)
eschriewen.

»Dar« (of »daar« of »d'r« of »'r«) blift eyn grensfal:  wän eyn uutluutendet
"r" folgt, wiil dat meest sülwst en half-vokal is [IPA ɤ, ʌ, ɒ], bin ik
daartou na nich entscheyden, of d'r auk jümmers de vokal (in dem fal »a«)
verduwwelt wärden sal, dat is för mi 'ne uapene frauge.

Un bii/bi gelöipige eyn-sülwer brukt me dat auk nich alstostrenk to niemen.
Bi eyn[e], en[ne], 'n[e] mot me dat vellicht sau maaken, as me dat häärt of
häären lauten wil.

(As Biispel kan me de strenge trennung van lang- un kort-vokalen bi Lyra van
1845 ("Plattdeutsche Briefe, Erzählungen und Gedichte" studeeren:

http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/no_cache/de/dms/load/toc/?IDDOC=321578&

3. Metluut-Verduwwelunge inspuaren!

Daar up düsse wiise de lengte van sülwen uut den vokalen hervörgeyt (wiil
lank-eynluuter jümmers verduwwelt sint und tweyluuter eynewäg twey
boukstaawen häwwet), kan de haugdüüdske bruuk van der verduwwelung der
metluute (konsonanten) na korten sülwen _entfallen_. Sau spuaren wi de
verduwwelden boukstaawen van langen vokalen daar - bi den konsonanten -
deylwiis wir in. (Blaut dän, wan de uutlaut-konsonant togliik de
anluut-konsonant van der folgenden sülwe is, wörde ik hem wiiterhen
verdu-w|w-eln.)

4. ai/ay <=> ey Ünnerscheydeng.

Wän schriifriägeln för määr as blaut dat noordniiersasseske plaat gelten
salt, dan müeten se auk de schriifwiis för dat tweyluut-paar [IPA ai, aɪ<vs.>
ɛɪ, ei] klaarstellen. An sik wööre »ei« historisk-graphemisk richtig för [ɛɪ,
ei], blaut wöörde ik dar rügsicht niämen up de haugdüüdske gewuonheyt, de
boukstaawenfolge »ei« automatisk as [IPA ai, aɪ] to liäsen un darümme för [
ɛɪ, ei] de schriifwiis »ey« för biäter haulen (as dat auk Ron Hahn faaken to
doun plegt).

As niäwenwärkung kan de ey-luut nich määr as lang-ee misverstaun wärden.

Liikers sölde dan, ümme den a-Tweyluut [IPA ai, aɪ] to schriiwen, »ai« of
»ay« wiält wärden, üm dat eendüüdig (un graphemisk richtig) to maaken. (Dat
haugdüüdske graphem »ei« kümp dan eenfak nich vör.)

De riägelung van de [ai, aɪ] tiigen [ɛɪ, ei] schriifwiis is för dat
westfäelske heyl wichtig, wiil wi - sünners in'm präteritum (vergaunentiit)
van starken verben - faaken [ai/aɪ] hewwet un nich »ee« of »ey« as im
Noord-LS.

In'm "neuen SASS (waardenbouk)" segget se darto - to de
boukstaawen-kombinatsjoun »ei« - niks, awers schriiwet för [IPA ai, aɪ]
slicht »ei« as im haugdüüdsken, dat is 'ne slechte riägelung und nin sinnige
gebruuk. (Dat hadden allerdings auk de klassisken westfäelsk-schriiwer as
Lyra, Klöntrup un Grupe uut dem Haugdüüdsken sau üöwernuomen, leyder.)

Sau, met düsse veer grunt-riägeln as biidrag to eyne algemeyn anniämbare und
lichte plaat-schriifwiis, wil ik et vör wignachten un nigjaar bewänden
lauten.

Schöüne Fiirdaage! Ik mag ju wual!

Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Krigst 'n dank, Joachim.

Du schreyvst:

Met "ogonek" ment Heiko un Reginhard awers nich 'ne sowjetiske afweerrackete
of en compjuterspel, sünnern diakritiske teeken as hiir unner ą ę į ǫ ų,
häww'ik dat recht verstaun?

Ja, dat stimt.

Wän jau, kan ik, leiwer Reginhard, dat nich as 'ne goude ümsetteng van
Hahn-riägel ① un ② anseyn. Un wat slägt de tiigensiite vör?

Ik har man nich segd dat ik dat ogonek goud vinden dou, or dey Sass'sche
schrievwys'. Ik har later ook schreven dat nu in dey Sass'sche schryvwys'
staats „e-ogonek" „ä" und staats „ö-ogonek" „œ" or „oe" schreven wardt, wyl
dat dat nich so gedygen is.

Na myn verscheel hebt wy 't mang dey Sassischen varianten mit tou mindst
twey, villicht drey spraak-süstemen tou doun: *Nourd-Neddersassisch* (mit
Mekelnborgsch, Vörpommersch, Grönningsch un Nourd-Drentsch),
*Westfaalsch*(mit all dey annern varianten in dey Nedderlannen), un
villicht
*Oostfaalsch-Brannenborgsch* (or veyr gruppen wen wy Mennonytsch as
af-sünnerd an-kykt). Mank jüm givt dat veel regelmatige
luud-korrespondenssen, t.b. ee – iä, aa – ua, üü – üü – ui ~ iu. Teoreetsch
kunnen in elk val dey sülvigen boukstaven bruukt warden. In myn süsteem sünd
dat ee, aa, uy. Dat kun vör dey Westfalen nich noug wesen, un sey wullen
(half-foneetsch) ua staats aa schryven. Tou mindst weyr dat goud wen vör al
dey gruppen *eyn* grund-süsteem bruukt woyrd', egaal of dat Duytsch,
Hollandsch or „exootsch" is.

Meyr kan ik up stünds nich schryven, hev tou veel tou beschikken.

Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron
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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:37:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.DEC.2008.133712.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]



> From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

> Reinhard F. Hahn wiiter:
>
> Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
> mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
> distinguished everywhere.

Ron,

I don't think the idea that "this will make it easier for learners" is a
very good argument.

When I was learning Russian, for example, the fact that vowel length was
more or less random and yet not marked was a bit of a drag. I did think,
however that no Russian should have to spend every day of his life
dealing with orthographic junk that he doesn't need, just so that I can
learn the language more easily. So I was marking the length in my
vocabulary book, where's the problem in that?

When children go to school, they're already not mispronouncing their
language, so while they may be learning to read it, this isn't a problem
for them.

When it comes to foreign learners, if they can't be bothered with such
difficulties, then they'd never learn the language properly anyway. If
they really want to learn, then it's all part of the experience.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Sandy,

In this context, if not all contexts, I meant by "learners" everyone that
learns a new word or expression. This can be a second-language learner or a
native speaker learner, or a researcher. If the native orthography is
inadequate to tell the learner the pronunciation then a secondary system
needs to be utilized in any reference work worth consulting.

In the case of English dictionaries, good encyclopedias and textbooks, some
sort of auxiliary phonetic script is used in addition to regular spelling of
a key word. The English Wikipedia only does this in cases of rarely
occurring names. So you need to consult other dictionaries if you do not
know the pronunciation of a given word.

In better Russian reference works, main stress is marked in all key words or
otherwise newly introduced words and expressions, since Russian stress
assignment is not consistently predictable. Fortunately, the Russian
Wikipedia people follow this tradition of using accent marks in key words.
The same can be said of the Ukrainian edition. One Belarusian edition does
it inconsistently and the other does not do it at all.

The German Wikipedia uses no system to indicate phonological detail, not
even where stress and vowel length are not predictable. (Bear in mind that
German stress and vowel length are not always predictable.) It only gives
the foreign pronunciation in cases of foreign words and names. The same
applies to the Latvian, Lithuanian, Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian editions
in which stress and tones are never indicated, although they are indicated
in better dictionaries and encyclopedias for these languages.

No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the
regular orthography does all that is required to know the pronunciation,
unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is the case for instance
in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian, Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.

Stress is largely predictable in Low Saxon. Furthermore, the foremost
systems indicate vowel length. So, whichever of the more used systems you
use, the system is in fact someone superior in this regard to the German
system. There is only the issue of distinguishing certain diphthongs from
long monophthongs where the "casual" variants of the writing systems do not
distinguish them. The systems proposed and widely used in Germany do come
with devices to make the distinctions, and the creator recommended using
them, which is what better dictionary do. While I would like to see them
used everywhere, my point is that reference and teaching materials at the
very least ought to use these devices, since they are supposed to be
resources that are consulted by "learners," however you define this word.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:43:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.19 (04) [LS/German]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de <mailto:
Kreimer at jpberlin.de>>


*2008.12.15 (04) Ron Hahn schraif:*

thinking about an auxiliary system to make up for the inadequacies of the
Sass system as it is widely used for the northern dialects.

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   * ① is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
     diacritics,
   * ② is easy to learn,
   * ③ does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   * ④ represents _all_ phonemes.

Leywe metstriiders,

üöwer düsse 4 grundsette van Reginhart gift et je wual eynigheyt tüsken
allen bedeyligden, odr? Män wan dat an't beoordeylen van den ümmesettenge
geyt, süt dat licht anners uut.

② is ganz gewiss richtig ("easy" kann ja nich slecht wesen).
Bi ① sütt dat al anners ut. "exotic letters" sünd blot exootsch, wenn se in
dien Schrievsystem ans nich vörkaamt. "exotic letters" sünd also blot en
Problem, wenn du en neet System inföhren wullt. Wenn dat ne'e System
eerstmal mit Erfolg inföhrt is, denn warrt ut de exootschen Bookstaven gau
ganz normale Bookstaven. Aver ik geev to, dat ① liekers richtig is, denn en
neet System mit veel exootsche Bookstaven _kann nich_ "mit Erfolg inföhrt"
warrn. Tominnst nich ahn groot Insatz. Un groot Insatz is för dat
Plattdüütsche nich realistisch.

④: Jo, verkehrt is dat nich. Aver dat Problem is, dat elkeen Dialekt sien
egen Satz hett. Wenn wi in de Geschicht trüchkiekt, denn is de jüngste
gemeensame Vörfohr von all plattdüütsche Dialekten dat westgermaansche. Ik
heff hier en Book liggen ("Die Einteilung der niederdeutschen Mundarten
aufgrund der strukturellen Entwicklung des Vokalismus") dat för 263 Öörd in
Nedderdüütschland (in'n wieden Sinn, also tohoop mit Nedderlannen und
Belgien) ünnersöcht, wie sik de Vokaals von dat Westgermaansche entwickelt
hebbt. In Süüdwestfalen is allens bi'n olen bleven. De fief korten Vokaals,
de fief langen Vokaals un de Diphthongen warrt ok vondaag noch all
ünnerscheden. In mien Dialekt sütt dat ganz anners ut. a, o, u un ā sünd
tohoopfullen (vake -> foken, voget -> Voog, fugal -> Vogel, gnāde -> Gnood),
ō un au sünd tohoopfullen (blōme -> Bloum, knaup -> Knoup), e un i sünd
tohoopfullen (gelo -> geel, dile -> Deel) un ē un ai sünd tohoopfullen
(brēve -> Breyf, dail -> Deyl). Wen ik nu för en allgemene Schrievwies all
disse Ünnerscheed, de för mi keen sünd, maken schall, denn kriegt wi gau en
System, dat jüstso "unlogisch" is as dat Engelsche. Dat schall nich heten,
dat ik dor nich to bereit bün, aver so en System mutt ok lehrt warrn, dat de
Lüüd dat ok verstaht. In'e School to'n Bispeel. En kumplex System is keen
Problem, wenn de Lesers dit kumplexe System al in de School lehrt. Wenn dat
aver keen Ünnerricht gifft un de Lesers sik spontan op en Schrievwies
instellen schöölt, denn warrt de sik swoordoon mit en System dat "klook" is,
aver wo eben nich licht un stracks dörtostiegen is. Dat se dat _spontan_
verstaht, helpt eben en Schrievwies, de sik an dat
Hoochdüütsche/Nedderlandsche anlehnt. Dat hebbt se in de School lehrt.

③: Wat schall denn "pretend" bedüden? Ik stimm op jeden Fall to, dat en
Schrievsystem för dat kumplette Plattdüütsche nich phoneetsch wesen dröff.
De plattdüütschen Schrieverslüüd laat sik ja in twee Gruppen indelen:
Dialektschrievers un Spraakschrievers. Wi hier op de List sünd vör allen
Spraakschrievers. Wi söökt na en allgemene Schrievwies, de för all Dialekten
tohoop to gebruken is. Aver en groten Deel von de Lüüd sünd
Dialektschrievers. De schrievt den Dialekt von jemehr Heimatdörp op, för en
Publikum ut jemehr Heimatdörp un de engere Ümgegend. De hebbt dor gorkeen
groot Intress an, dat Lüüd mit frömme Dialekten jem lesen doot. Wenn se en
groot Publikum hebben wullen, denn kunnen se ok Hoochdüütsch oder
Nedderlandsch schrieven. De _wüllt_ phoneetsch schrieven. Dat is dat grote
Problem bi de plattdüütsche Schrieveree: Dat sik ok na över 150 Johr noch
keen allgemene Schrievwies dörsett hett, dat liggt nich dor an, dat dat so
en swore Opgaav is. Nee, dat liggt dor an, dat nich noog Lüüd en Intress an
so'n Schrievwies hebbt. Woför bruukt wi en allgemene Schrievwies? Platt
warrt nich in'e School lehrt. Dat gifft keen plattdüütsche Wetenschop. Dat
gifft keen plattdüütsche Saakböker. Dat gifft keen plattdüütsche Daagbläder.
Dat gifft keen plattdüütsch Medium, dat sik överregional an de Lüüd wennt.
Un wenn allens in de Region blifft, denn reckt ok regionale
dialektphoneetsche Schrievwiesen. Worüm hebbt denn Düütsch, Engelsch un
Franzöösch en eenheitliche Schrievwies entwickelt? Dat keem mit'n Bookdruck.
Mit'n Bookdruck hebbt se dat eerste Maal överregional schreven. De
Handschriften vörher weren ja allens Unikate. Extra schreven för en enkelten
Opdraggever. Dat weer also Person to Person, blot ene enzige Person müss dat
lesen könen (jüst as de Dialektschrievers seggt, dat dat blot de Minschen in
jemehr Heimatregion lesen können mööt). Mit'n Bookdruck weer dat nu aver so,
dat dat Publikum nich mehr bekannt weer, dat dat Publikum grötter weer un
wieder weg. Dor weer opmal en veel gröttern Druck dor, so to schrieven as de
annern ok schrievt. Dat se dat ünnerenanner lesen köönt. Dat weer opmal also
_nödig_ eenheitlich to schrieven. Un disse Nood hebbt de Plattdüütschen
nich.

Dat is mien Menen: Wenn de Staat seggen dee: "Wi stellt uns uns
Verantwoordung. De Charta för de Regional- oder Minnerheitenspraken is nich
blot Poppeer. Doon is mehr as Snacken. Wi wüllt mehr as blot
"Sterbebegleitung" för dat Plattdüütsche doon. Wi wüllt de nödigen Maßnahmen
ergriepen, dat de Spraak _bestahn_ blifft. _Duurhaft bestahn._ Wi geevt von
nu an elk Johr ene Milliarde Euro ut, för Schoolünnerricht för Platt un op
Platt, för dat Inrichten von plattdüütsche Medien, för Schriever- un
Översetterstipendien un för all dat, wat wi ok för de hoochdüütsche Spraak
doot, ahn dat dor groot een över snackt." Wenn de Staat dat seggen dee un de
plattdüütsche Kulturbedriev ut de Subsistenzweertschop opwaken dee, denn dee
dat blot en poor Johr duurn (sogor wenn dor nix offiziell reguleert warrt),
bet sik von alleen en allgemene Schrievwies rutbillen dee. Dor glööv ik fast
an.

Marcus Buck

PS: Ik heff baven von Stipendien för Schrievers un Översetters snackt. Dat
also de Staat Lüüd Geld betahlt, dat de in Roh Böker schrieven oder
översetten köönt, ok wenn de Sprekertall von de Spraak dat normalerwies nich
hergifft. Dat gifft to'n Bispeel so bi 60.000 Lüüd, de dat schottsche
Gäälsch snacken doot. Wenn ik nu en Book schriev, denn mutt so temlich
elkeen von disse Lüüd dat Book kopen, dat ik dor von leven kann. Wenn
Schottland nu en Grundgehalt för gäälsche Schrievers betahlen dee, denn
kunnen de schrieven, ahn dat se dor von afhängig sünd, dat de Lüüd nu ok all
dat Book kööpt. So lett sik de Kulturproduktion för lüttje Spraken düüdlich
vergröttern.
Gifft dat sowat al irgendwo? Villicht ok annersrüm as Subvention op Böker in
lüttje Spraken? Katalanen oder Basken villicht oder annerwegens? Oder mööt
de lüttjen Spraken all na de Regeln von'n fre'en Markt spelen?
(Info: Plattdüütsch hett en Bookproduktion von 150 Böker elk Johr,
Westfreesch von so bi 100 Böker. Wenn de Staat blot ene Million Euro
opwennt, denn kann he dor 20 Lüüd von 50.000 Euro betahlen. Dat reckt, de
Bookproduktion to verdubbeln.)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 20 23:57:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:57:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2008.12.20 (01) [LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.DEC.2008.155718.0800.>

===========================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.12.21 (01) [LS]




Leywe Liiglänners,



ney, ney, ik wil ju nich twingen, auk na de fraktuur-schrift to läären. Ik
wil blaut maul seyn, af wi düssen e-breyf met de html-tabellen-struktuur
üöwer de LL-Listen jüst sau wirkriigen, d. h. met de marginalien
(sidenotes). Un daarmet dat nich heyl formaal blift, sende ik ju to
wignachten na en verske van Klöntrup.

Wan dat goud ankümt, küont ji de e-breyf as entwuorp spiikern un för äinlike
twecke - ik meyn daarmet weniger de fraktuur dan de randnouten -
wirverwenden.

J O O S T   U N   J A N

E N   V E R S K E   V A N   K L Ö N T R U P

U P   P L A A T   W E S T F Ä E L S K





Med e deylt van F. W. Lyra¹ in siine plaatdüüdsken Breefe, Vertellsels un
Leeder ... van 1844. --- Met Waartverklaarenge nigge 'ruutgiewen van Joachim
Kreimer-de Fries, Berlin 2008



------------------



Joost un Jan



Wat gift't Nigges ¹, seggde Joost to Jan,



Se dräupen ³ sick unnerwieges ⁴ an.



»Vull Nigges ⁵, man nicks Goues,« seggde Jan to Joost,



»De Paapst is up den Düüwel erboust ⁶;



»Dann tüsken 'r Hell un'n Fiegefüür ⁷



»Is in e fallen de aule Müür' ⁸;«



»Un nu kann, na miinen Gissen ⁹,



»De Paapst de Müüren gaar nich missen.«



»Dat gift'n P'rzeß ¹⁰,» siä Joost to Jan.



»Jau wual, un'n P'rzeß, de wat duuren ¹¹ kann,



»Dann't meeste Geld ¹² heft de Paapst sünner Twiiwel ¹³,



»Aawers de meesten Avekaaten heft de Düüwel.«



                                                            Klöntrup
(Manuscript)



Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries











                                            ¹ F. W. Lyra: Plattdeutsche
Briefe, Erzählungen und Gedichte ..., Osnabrück 1844, S. 179-181         ²
new   ³ they met each other ⁴ on the way   ⁵ many niews, but nothing good
⁶ the pope is angry about the devil   ⁷ purgatory   ⁸ tumbled down the old
wall     ⁹ guess       ¹⁰ court case     ¹⁰ take a long time   ¹²  money
¹³ without doubt
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 21 19:23:57 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:23:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.112357.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holdiays

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy holidays to all of you that celebrate them!

Happy Fourth Advent to all Western Tradition Christians among you! (I *
believe* my count is correct.) Also, beginning this week, merry Christmas! I
hope all of you were mostly nice and only a little bit naughty.

Happy first day of Hanukka to all our Jewish Lowlanders! May those lamps and
candles shine forever!

Happy Yule and Litha to you Pagans, and, correspondingly, happy Alban
Arthuan and Alban Heruin (Alban Hefin) respectively to you Celticists! (We
are talking about Winter Solstice in the Northern and Summer Solstice in the
Southern Hemisphere.)

Greetings to all from an unusually snowy Seattle!

Yours,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 21 19:46:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:46:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.114623.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

Hello Lowlanders, I was just thinking when I got Ron's Holliday message that
I know very little about what is iconic for this part of the year in other
cultures. Wotan had his mighty oak and maybe mistletoe already. For the
people in the Northern hemisphere the oaks were felled and replaced with "Oh
Tannenbaum" and lately I have run into many a "Hanukka bush". But what other
cultural icons are there? Solstices were easily observed even by people
without modern technology. So there must be other signs around.

In any case, no matter how you celebrate, I wish you light, warmth and love.
Jacqueline

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 21 22:43:46 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:43:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.21 (03) [German]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.144346.0800.>

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L: Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache - neue Karten

Leve Lüüüd,

heute habe ich eine Mailbenachrichtigung über den "Atlas zur deutschen
Alltagssprache" bekommen. Die Ergebnisse der fünften Runde sind da: 44
Karten mit z.B.
* Weihnachtsmann vs. Christkind
* Christbaum vs. Tannenbaum
etc.

Viel Spaß beim Stöbern. Und vielleicht habt Ihr ja auch Lust, an der
sechsten Umfrage teilzunehmen.

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: *Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache (AdA)* <
phil-ada at listserv.uni-augsburg.de>
Date: 2008/12/20
Subject: Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache - neue Karten
To: phil-ada at listserv.uni-augsburg.de


Guten Tag, grüezi, grüß Gott, servus, moin,moin!

Sie haben im letzten oder in diesem Jahr freundlicherweise an unserer
Umfrage zum regionalen Sprachgebrauch in den deutschsprachigen Ländern
teilgenommen (Deutschland, Österreich, der Schweiz, Norditalien,
Liechtenstein und Ostbelgien). Dafür danken wir Ihnen sehr!

Wir freuen uns, Ihnen heute – genau ein Jahr nach dem Start der Umfrage –
auf unserer Projektseite die Ergebnisse dieser Umfrage auf 44 Karten
präsentieren zu können. Wenn Sie auf folgenden Link klicken, werden Sie
gleich auf die Startseite zu den Ergebnissen der „Fünften Runde" geleitet:
http://www.philhist.uni-augsburg.de/lehrstuehle/germanistik/sprachwissenschaft/ada/runde_5/
.
Dort finden Sie auf der linken Leiste die Übersicht aller Karten, die Sie
jeweils einzeln ansteuern und anklicken können. Sie erfahren dort unter
anderem, wo man „Tannenbäume", „Christbäume" oder „Weihnachtsbäume"
aufstellt und wo das „Christkind(-l/-li)" bzw. der „Weihnachtsmann" kommt.

Viele TeilnehmerInnen der Umfrage haben auch ihre Bereitschaft
ausgedrückt, an zukünftigen Befragungen teilzunehmen. Wir würden uns sehr
freuen, wenn Sie sich wieder einige Minuten Zeit nehmen und auch den neuen
Fragebogen ausfüllen könnten. Dazu klicken Sie einfach den entsprechenden
Link unten auf der Startseite („Online-Fragebogen") oder das Feld
„Aktuelle Umfrage: Sechste Runde" in der linken Leiste an
(
http://www.philhist.uni-augsburg.de/lehrstuehle/germanistik/sprachwissenschaft/ada/runde_6/
).
Dort finden Sie dieses Mal einen neuartigen Fragebogen: Es geht darum, wo
man nach Ihrer Einschätzung so ähnlich spricht wie an Ihrem Ort (und wo
ganz anders). Das Ausfüllen des Fragebogens dauert etwa 10 Minuten, und
Sie können ihn wieder an Ort und Stelle beantworten; Herunterladen oder
Ausdrucken ist also nicht notwendig. (In der siebten Fragerunde, die wir
schon in einigen Monaten starten werden, wird dann wieder nach einzelnen
ortsüblichen Ausdrücken gefragt werden!)

Wenn Sie hingegen wünschen, dass wir Ihre E-Mail-Adresse löschen, dann
antworten Sie bitte kurz und formlos auf diese E-Mail.

Gern können Sie diese E-Mail wieder an Freunde oder Bekannte aus Ihrem Ort
weiterleiten – das würde uns sehr helfen. Je mehr Antworten wir bekommen,
desto besser.

Nochmals vielen Dank fürs Mitmachen, frohes Fest und – wenn Sie mögen –
viel Spaß beim Ausfüllen!

für die Projektgruppe

Prof. Dr. Stephan Elspaß
Universität Augsburg
Lehrstuhl für Deutsche Sprachwissenschaft
Universitätsstr. 2
D-86135 Augsburg

Dr. Robert Möller
Université de Liège
Département de Langues et Littératures germaniques
Place Cockerill, 3
B-4000 Liège

www.uni-augsburg.de/alltagssprache
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 00:06:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:06:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.160633.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Hi, everyone!

Jacqueline, you wrote:

Hello Lowlanders, I was just thinking when I got Ron's Holliday message that
I know very little about what is iconic for this part of the year in other
cultures. Wotan had his mighty oak and maybe mistletoe already. For the
people in the Northern hemisphere the oaks were felled and replaced with "Oh
Tannenbaum" and lately I have run into many a "Hanukka bush". But what other
cultural icons are there? Solstices were easily observed even by people
without modern technology. So there must be other signs around.


Here are tidbits of what I have learned about this over the years:

Among pre-Christian Germanic tribes, Winter Solstice celebrations often
involved various fire rituals designed to provoke the return of the sun for
another cycle.

In wooded areas, trees on hilltops would be set alight. Apparently, this led
to the development of the Christmas tree.

On the coast, large bonfires used to be lit, and rituals used to be
performed around them, also to entice the sun back. A relic of this is the *
biikebrennen* ("beacon burning") in Northern Friesland.

In wooded areas, alternatively, or in addition, large wheels clad in
vegetation would be set alight and rolled down hillsides. This may have led
to the development of the Advent wreath and the name "Yule" which means
'wheel':

   - Old Frisian *hwēl, fiāl*
   - Old English *hweogl*
      -    > English, Scots *wheel*
   - Old Norse *hvēl, hvel, hjōl*
      -    > wheel: Icelandic, Faroese *hjól*, Danish, Norwegian *jul*,
      Swedish *hjul*
      -    > Christmas: Icelandic, Faroese *jól*, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish
      *jul*
      -    > English "Yule", Scots: *Yuil*, Finnish *joulu*, Estonian* jõulu
      *
   - Germanic: **hwela > *hwegwula, *hwehula*


I consider it quite possible that the lighting of the doused Christmas
pudding and the rituals surrounding it in Britain are derivatives of the
ancient fire rituals.

Also, certain cleansing rituals used to lead up to Yule, designed to remove
evil spirits before the sun's return. Apparently, relics of this is noisy
stomping and singing throughout the home at Christmas in Scandinavia,
various mummers festivals in Allemannic-speaking areas, and New Year's
cleaning rituals in various parts of Europe.

Of course, fire also plays a cleansing role in many other Eurasian
traditions, and this may well be connected with the mentioned European
rituals as well.

Thanks for the Yuletide descriptions that just rolled in and are posted
below!

And, of course, there is the Jewish Hanukkah (חנוכה) tradition which roughly
"coincides" with other festivals of light in the Northern Hemisphere's
darkest time of the year. The official religious explanation is that it
commemorates the rededication of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem at the time of
the Maccabean Revolt of the 2nd century BCE. It is observed for eight
nights, every night an additional light being lit on a *hanukiah* (חנכיה), a
candelabra (*menorah* מנורה) specifically set aside for Hanukkah. Roughly,
the story told about it is that at the rededication there was only enough
olive oil to light a lamp for one night, by the flame actually lasted eight
days.

I truly wish you all wonderful days in the company of people you love.
Whatever you do, enjoy it!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Jacqueline asked about iconic traditions

Here for our family a Christmas tree with decorations given each year to
each child so that a whole life time of memories hang on the tree: somewhat
depleted now since our 3 children have left home and taken their own
personal decorations with them. But still great joy to see them again when
visiting their homes ( as I did this afternoon and saw 30 years of
decorations on my daughter's tree. We had a happy few minutes recalling
where or why each one had been bought.)

Carrot and parsnip mash with the turkey

A christmas pudding well-lit with warm brandy being carried clockwise round
the table and GREAT disappointment if the flames die before the carrier (
usually me) completes the circle and sits down.

For decorations we bring in evergreens - holly and ivy and fir in the main
with the odd glass bauble as well.

A Christmas carol concert sometime during the weeks before Christmas

The Christmas Carols from Kings College at 3p.m. on Christmas Eve to
accompany the cooking in the kitchen and home made brandy butter with the
pudding and lots of cream!

Mmmmm I can't wait!

very best wishes to all

Heather

----------

From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

On 22/12/2008, at 5:23 AM,  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>  wrote:


From:
Subject: Holdiays

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy holidays to all of you that celebrate them!

Happy Fourth Advent to all Western Tradition Christians among you! (I *
believe* my count is correct.)

Last evening our church held a very moving Celtic style service based on
Advent themes.


Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns


----------

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

Leve Ron,

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy holidays to all of you that celebrate them!

Happy Fourth Advent to all Western Tradition Christians among you! (I *
believe* my count is correct.) Also, beginning this week, merry Christmas! I
hope all of you were mostly nice and only a little bit naughty.

Happy first day of Hanukka to all our Jewish Lowlanders! May those lamps and
candles shine forever!

Happy Yule and Litha to you Pagans, and, correspondingly, happy Alban
Arthuan and Alban Heruin (Alban Hefin) respectively to you Celticists! (We
are talking about Winter Solstice in the Northern and Summer Solstice in the
Southern Hemisphere.)

Traditions can lead to unexpected quirks. Both my family and my wife's
family are Lutherans. I turned Seventh-Day-Adventist some 10 years ago. My
wife joined me soon after marriage. Basically our church is a Baptist
church. The most characteristic difference to Baptists (and to most other
Christian denominations) is that we take the Sabbath command in the Ten
Commandments the way it is written in the Bible: our weekly holiday is on
Saturday and not on Sunday.

We do have an "Adventskranz" (whats that in English?) on our kitchen table.
The story goes that it was invented here in Hamburg by Johann Hinrich
Wichern in a children's home as a countdown to Christmas.

Actually I do not know whether other Adventists make Advent wreaths (OK, I
looked up the word in the meantime) but my wife likes making them and for
our little children (aged 1 to 6) it definitely is a good countdown to
Christmas.

But what do you do when you celebrate Sabbath instead of Sunday... We then
decided to light the next candle one day earlier than our fellow Lutherans,
on the Saturday before each Advent Sunday. It is the third year we have an
Advent wreath and it is the third year we do this in this way, so this has
become our own family tradition.  (We are still using our fist set of
candles, nice, big orange ones!) Which reminds me that I recently heard an
American Buddhist state that only those who embody a tradition have the
right to change it.

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 01:49:03 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:49:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.21 (05) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.174903.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 December 2008 - Volume 05
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

Beste Heiko,

You wrote:

Leve Lüüüd,

heute habe ich eine Mailbenachrichtigung über den "Atlas zur deutschen
Alltagssprache" bekommen.

Thanks a bunch for the interesting link.



A number of Southern Dutch linguistic features seem to be in use in Southern
German as well (and not so much in Northern German/Standard Dutch):



   - Ich hab kein geld *für* ein Auto zu kaufen ~ Ik heb geen geld *voor* een
   auto te kopen (B)
   - Ich habe jetzt noch keinen Hunger *nicht** *~ Ik heb nu nog geen honger
   *niet* (B)
   - Denken *auf* etwas ~ peinzen *op* iets
   - Peter hat ein Kotelett *wollen essen* ~ Peter heeft een kotelet *willen
   eten*
   - *Lang* das nicht *an* ~ iemand *aanlangen* = iemand aanraken > iemand
   verkrachten (B)
   - schutten ~ shotten (= voetballen) (B)
   - Nachtkästchen ~ nachtkaske (B)
   - Nastuch ~ neusdoek (B)



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:34:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:34:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.043410.0800.>

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From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]

Just for to be correct,

in Estonian orthography neither the palatalization nor the differentiation
between long and overlong syllables are in most cases (except of, for
example, k, p, t on the border of syllables in case of quantity
differentiation) not represented in the regular orthography, both are
phonologically relevant features. Quite regularly Genitive and
Partitive/accusative of a nomen differ only in quantity
(long/overlong-opposition).  (Native) reader in first instance has to
understand the text, then only he/she knows, how to pronounce the word-forms
in ambivalent (homographic) cases.

Mari Sarv

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the
regular orthography does all that is required to know the pronunciation,
unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is the case for instance
in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian, Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:37:32 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:37:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.22 (02) [E]
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From: "wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: Happy HANNUKAH..

 From wim verdoold

wkv at home.nl

netherlands

Hanukkah

Kislev 24th until Tevet 2nd.
This year Hanukkah begins the night of December 21st.

The Feast of Dedication" or Hanukkah, -- you will not find this Holiday in
Lev. 23 with the seven Feasts of the Lord. But we find it in John 10:22 and
other places as well. I think it may be necessary to do a little history
here before going on; this will not be a history lesson, just a little
background.

The time was around 167 BC or, if you're Jewish--BCE.  Prior to this date a
young ruler named Alexander the Great, ruled the entire ancient world.  This
period of time is referred to as "the Hellenistic period" (Greeks).  His
untimely death caused a power struggle and four of his generals split up the
kingdom.  The one that ended up with Israel was Antiochus IV.  This new
Ruler of Israel commanded everyone to convert to Hellenism (Greek Metrology)
and the Greek values that he held. Many did, even many of the Jews of the
land because they found it to be a very civilized way of life.

But, there were those Jews who held close to the Torah and God's way of
worship and refused to embrace Hellenism. In fact, Antiochus gave the Jews
an ultimatum, to either give up their distinctive customs, such
as worshipping on the Sabbath (Saturday), Circumcision, and Kosher Laws, or
die.

One of the first things Antiochus did was to desecrate the Holy Temple.  He
ordered the utensils, such as the Menorah, Altar, and Table to be defiled
and torn down.  Then to be certain that he had accomplished his job, he
ordered a pig to be sacrificed on the holy altar. After doing all of that,
he order that a Greek god Zeus be worshiped in the Temple.

When Antiochus heard that the people were murmuring and talking about revolt
against him, he marched his troops to a town in the foothills called
Modi'in.  His plan was to erect a false god in the city and force the people
to worship it.  Modi'in was the home of a priest named Mattathias who had
five sons.  He and his sons revolted and killed the soldiers and began the
revolt against this evil ruler.  One of Mattathias's sons was Judah, and he
became the new leader and was quickly nicknamed "Maccabee" (the Hammer in
Hebrew).  To bring this piece of history to a close we will just report that
Maccabee and his men defeated the Greek armies and got rid of Antiochus.

The Maccabees now faced the task of restoring the Temple for Jewish worship
to their Holy God.  They cleansed the Temple and restored the furnishings.
There was special attention given to the Menorah, for it symbolized the
Light of God.  They restored it and when they went to light it, they found
there was a problem.  This Menorah could only be used with special oil, and
it took eight days to prepare such oil.  They found enough of this special
oil to burn only one day.  To celebrate the victory of the battle fought for
their religious liberty, they decided to light the Menorah anyway and allow
the light of God to shine forth with its glory, even if but for a day.  But
God gave them a miracle, and the oil lasted eight days, until the new oil
was made ready.  So today we have the eight days of the Feast of Dedication
"Hanukkah."  It is also why you will see a nine branch Menorah instead of
seven in most Jewish homes.  It represents the miracle of the eight days the
oil burned; the ninth branch (in the center) is the Shamash (Servant Lamp),
which represents the Messiah.

There are many customs and traditions that brings one closer to God and
understanding of His greatness associated with this holiday, but I want to
keep this as short as possible.  Each night for eight nights a candle is
lighted. The Shamash (the center) is always lit first, for it is from the
Messiah that all light flows.  It is then used to light each candle for the
eight nights.  Blessing is said and songs about Hanukkah sung. Gifts are
given to the children each of the eight nights.  During the lighting of the
Shamash and the other candles are lit with the Shamash, the following
blessings are said. I will try to write the Hebrew in English letters for
you, I hope I do it correctly.

A little advice in lighting the candles, you place them in the Menorah from
right to left, but you light them with the Shamash  from left to right.

BARUCH ATAH ADONAI ELOHENU MELECKH HA-OLAM, ASHER KIDSHANU B'MITZVOHTAV
L'HADLEEK NER, SHEL CHANUKKAH.

Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who has set us apart
by your commandments and commanded us to kindle the light of Hanukkah.

So after lichting the candles and singing the Hanukkah songs, you set down
for a festive meal, each night for eight nights.

So I will conclude with one Jewish recipe for "Latkes" or to put it more
simply "Potato Pancakes."

Ingredients:
2      Eggs
3      Cups grated, drained potatoes
4      Tbls. Grated onion
¼ tsp. Pepper
2      Tbls. Cracker or matzah meal
½ cup oil or butter

Directions:

Beat the eggs and add the potatoes, onions, salt (to taste), pepper, and
meal. Heat half the oil or butter in a frying pan and drop the potato
mixture into it by tablespoon.  Fry until browned on both sides. Keep
pancakes hot until all are fried and add more oil or butter as required.
Serve with Applesauce or sour cream. Serves 8.

Shalom, and Hag Same'ach, (Happy Holiday) Jerry Golden

Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never
suffer the righteous to be moved.
Psalms 55:22 KJV
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:40:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:40:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.22 (03) [E]
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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.21 (05) [E/German]

Van Wim verdoold

wkv at hom,e.nl

zwolle  netherlands

Hoi,

Wat ik me afvraag,

Kan het zijn dat deze vormen zijn ontstaan door Franse invloed?

Wie kan hier genoeg Frans?

Prettige feestdagen,

wim

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:45:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:45:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.044518.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]

> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]
>
[...]


> We do have an "Adventskranz" (whats that in
> English?) on our kitchen table.
> The story goes that it was invented here in Hamburg by
> Johann Hinrich
> Wichern in a children's home as a countdown to
> Christmas.

Heiko,

Once upon a time I tried to find out more about the history of the
Adventskranz, and I think we cannot say that Wichern [ab. 150 years ago]
invented the Adventskranz.
But as Wichern was very active as a pedagogue he may have made it very
popular.

However, he may have been the inventor of the practice to light a candle on
the Adventskrans for each new day.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

.....Solstices were easily observed even by people without modern
technology....



Well, not that easily. The sunrise and sunset positions vary very little day
to day around the Solstices (that's what it means: "Sun stands still").
Without magnification and instrumented scales, you'd be doing well to pin it
down to within a few days. Equinoxes on the other hand, the sun seems to
race around the horizon, so they are fairly easy to define once you've
worked out which way east is, which isn't hard.  That is why so many
traditional New Years begin near them. But not *on* them; the sun doesn't in
fact rise in the east on the equinoxes, unless you consider halfway up to be
"sunrise" - and then only if we didn't have an atmosphere!



Paul Finlow-Bates.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:41:34 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:41:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.22 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.044134.0800.>

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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.21 (05) [E/German]

Van Wim verdoold

wkv at hom,e.nl

zwolle  netherlands

Hoi,

Wat ik me afvraag,

Kan het zijn dat deze vormen zijn ontstaan door Franse invloed?

Wie kan hier genoeg Frans?

Prettige feestdagen,
wim

�

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:00:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.090019.0800.>

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From: caennmohr at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.18 (01) [E

Just for the record, I also frequently receive duplicates of postings.
After reading Ron's response, I thought I should let it be known, but
decided to read some other postings first, and sure enough, in that batch of
postings (from the 19th), there were duplicates.  Out of a batch of perhaps
6 or 7 postings, 1 or 2 will be duplicates, but there doesn't seem to be any
apparent consistency or reason. I just assumed someone inadvertently had
sent it out twice. This has been going on since I re-joined this past
summer.  Hope this helps...

Carolyn Wood

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mailings

Thanks a lot, Carolyn.

Since duplicate mail delivery appears to be pretty common I am letting our
good hosts at LINGUIST know. Perhaps the problem can be easily solved.

It's nice to hear from you again, Carolyn.

Happy Holidays!

Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 18:34:30 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:34:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (07) [E]
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (04) [E]

Paul says: The sunrise and sunset positions vary very little day to day
around the Solstices (that's what it means: "Sun stands still"). Without
magnification and instrumented scales, you'd be doing well to pin it down to
within a few days. Equinoxes on the other hand, the sun seems to race around
the horizon, so they are fairly easy to define once you've worked out which
way east is, which isn't hard.  That is why so many traditional New Years
begin near them. But not *on* them; the sun doesn't in fact rise in the east
on the equinoxes, unless you consider halfway up to be "sunrise" - and then
only if we didn't have an atmosphere!

Thanks Paul. 1. It is true that solstice means "Sun stands still" and I
should have known that.

2. I asked my Mother once ( I must have been eight years old or so ) "Why is
it that not everybody celebrates New     year on the same day?. She did not
know the answer and I never thought about it again. Not very smart!

3. Have a nice Christmas and New Year. Jacqueline

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 18:32:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:32:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.22 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.103223.0800.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Dear Lowlanders,

Our Arend Victorie sent me a Christmas video poem in Drenthe Low Saxon for
all of us, and I have posted it in his corner of our Gallery:

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_karstfeest.php

Thanks, Arend, and happy Holidays to you and yours as well!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 19:18:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:18:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.111812.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Orthography
>
> Sandy,
>
> In this context, if not all contexts, I meant by "learners" everyone
> that learns a new word or expression. This can be a second-language
> learner or a native speaker learner, or a researcher. If the native
> orthography is inadequate to tell the learner the pronunciation then a
> secondary system needs to be utilized in any reference work worth
> consulting.

So are you saying that stress should be marked in everyday Russian
orthography for the sake of native speakers as well?

That vowels should always be written in Arabic?

> No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the
> regular orthography does all that is required to know the
> pronunciation, unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is
> the case for instance in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian,
> Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.

I don't know all those languages but I do (or I should probably say "did
once"!) know Czech. As usual, generalised statements only seem to hold
water until we run into a language I'm familiar with.

An important point about Czech, I think, is that the sounds of the
language lend themselves to a simple orthographic system: it has the
five basic vowels, long or short, and a few diphthongs. The stress is
almost completely regular (well, at least learners won't run into too
many problems if they assume that it is).

It's true that Czech orthography is reasonably regular. I think it's
true what you say: if you see a word you can pronounce it, although the
rules for getting the voicings and devoicings right are at the level
where this seems easy to native speakers but not to true learners.

As for the other way round, it's not at all true that if you hear a word
in Czech you'll know how to write it, as evinced by the many mistakes in
"greengrocers' Czech" around Prague, particularly with respect to the
u-circle, voicings and devoicings and consonantal prepositions.

And not every language lends itself to orthographic purity so easily.
There's the objection in English that it's not easy to devise an
orthography that will work for all English speakers, as I've been
saying, but it's worse than that. In English (and to a slightly lesser
extent in Scots), people using different dialects perceive unstressed
vowels to have been dropped and others pronounce them. Unstressed vowels
tend to be pronounced as a schwa, making it difficult to decide how to
spell a word from the sound of it alone, and this varies widely too. And
then again their vowel and diphthong systems clash.

I think this sort of thing is the motivation for hanging on to
etymological roots in orthographic systems.

So no, I don't count natives filling in their knowledge of the language
with a few new words learned from time to time count as "learners". The
fact that some reference works aren't good enough is no reason to add
stuff to the orthography itself. The only improvements needed are in the
reference works.

I also discount language researchers: they should be in the field, not
in the library  :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Sandy:

So are you saying that stress should be marked in everyday Russian
orthography for the sake of native speakers as well?

That vowels should always be written in Arabic?


No, Sandy. What I mean is that the full orthography or added auxiliary
notation should be shown as a minimum for key words or new vocabulary items
in reference material, which is what is done in all good dictionaries and
textbooks.

All my Russian dictionaries show stress assignment in all keywords and all
Russian textbooks show stress assignment at least with the introduction of
new words. My Hebrew and Arabic reference and teaching material show the
vowels, while not in all texts, in all vocabulary introductions.

Dictionaries and encyclopedias meant to be for native speakers as well ought
to have pronunciation help for keywords as well, because native speakers,
too, don't necessarily know the pronunciation of spelled words that are new
to them. All better English ones have this.

If ordinary spelling does not fully indicate it, pronunciation ought to be
shown in some other way in reference and teaching material.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 00:21:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:21:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.162124.0800.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]

The only thing in my submission about the Lowlands is that it is in English,
as were the preponderance of Christmas carols sixty of us sang here last
night.



About 1935 I moved to Dolgeville, NY, named for and by Alfred Dolge, an
immigrant German piano manufacturer, who set up shop, exploiting the local
water power coming down from the Adirondack Mountains. He also set up a
system of forestry, harvesting only the oldest and best trees for piano
sounding boards. That system of forestry is still in effect and has been
taken as a world model for last word, ecological forestry.



Sorry, I'll get to the point... As a kid in Dolgeville, I loved going
around caroling to the old and sick. The best part was that the German
families regaled us with indescriptibly good cookies and sweets.



So now every year we carol to ourselves and feed ourselves--US
*gringos,*Australian, Austrian, British, Cuban, Dutch, Mexican,
Nigerian, Phillipine,
Puerto Rican, Russian, Ukrainian...others have moved away...



"Tis the season to be jolly!" Live it up!



Jorge Potter

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 00:22:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:22:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.162221.0800.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 December 2008 - Volume 08
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]

The only thing in my submission about the Lowlands is that it is in English,
as were the preponderance of Christmas carols sixty of us sang here last
night.

About 1935 I moved to Dolgeville, NY, named for and by Alfred Dolge, an
immigrant German piano manufacturer, who set up shop, exploiting the local
water power coming down from the Adirondack Mountains. He also set up a
system of forestry, harvesting only the oldest and best trees for piano
sounding boards. That system of forestry is still in effect and has been
taken as a world model for last word, ecological forestry.

Sorry, I'll get to the point... As a kid in Dolgeville, I loved going
around caroling to the old and sick. The best part was that the German
families regaled us with indescriptibly good cookies and sweets.

So now every year we carol to ourselves and feed ourselves--US
*gringos,*Australian, Austrian, British, Cuban, Dutch, Mexican,
Nigerian, Phillipine,
Puerto Rican, Russian, Ukrainian...others have moved away...

"Tis the season to be jolly!" Live it up!
Jorge Potter

�

==============================END===================================

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 00:25:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:25:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.22 (09) [D]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.162518.0800.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Wim,



Je schreef:

Wat ik me afvraag,

Kan het zijn dat deze vormen zijn ontstaan door Franse invloed?

Wie kan hier genoeg Frans?

Ik weet niet zeker of je het hebt over woorden en zinsconstructies in
Zuidelijk Nederlands die ook schijnen voor te komen in Zuidelijk Duits;
alwaar ik gisteren over berichtte.



Als dat het geval is: Franse invloed is in het Zuiden uiteraard nooit weg te
cijferen, hoewel de situatie me wat ingewikkelder lijkt.



Laat me het lijstje even aflopen:

   - Ich hab kein geld *für* ein Auto zu kaufen ~ Ik heb geen geld *voor* een
   auto te kopen: hier is invloed uit de Romaanse wereld merkbaar, alwaar ook
   "pour"/"per" gebruikt wordt in deze constructie, zelfs tot in een gebied ten
   zuiden van Wenen.
   - Ich habe jetzt noch keinen Hunger *nicht** *~ Ik heb nu nog geen
   honger *niet*. Reduplicatie van deze aard lijkt zich vooral in Beieren
   (tot Wenen) te concentreren. Bij mijn weten bestaat zoiets in het Romaans
   niet. Misschien een relict uit een Keltisch substraat?
   - Denken *auf* etwas ~ peinzen *op* iets: Frans/Italiaans verbindt
   "penser"/"pensare" vooral aan "à", "de" of "a". Niet aan "sur/su". Zuidelijk
   Duitsland, vooral in Oostenrijk en Zuid-Tirol.
   - Peter hat ein Kotelett *wollen essen* ~ Peter heeft een kotelet *willen
   eten: *Vermits deze volgorde ook Noord-Nederlands is (maar niet
   Noord-Duits) lijkt Franse invloed een beetje gezocht. Zwitsers Duits
   gebruikt echter ook de Nederlandse volgorde, wat dan toch in Franse richting
   zou kunnen wijzen.
   - *Lang* das nicht *an* ~ iemand *aanlangen* = iemand aanraken > iemand
   verkrachten (B). Het gaat me hier over de oppositie fassen/langen. Vatten
   wordt in Zuidelijk Nederlands bij mijn weten nooit in letterlijke zin
   gebruikt. Wel wordt het overdrachtelijk gebezigd (vatten/vaten = geestelijk
   (be)grijpen). Langen daarentegen, wordt in nogal wat combinaties gebruikt:
   langen = geven, aflangen = afnemen, afstapelen (bij kaartspel), aanlangen =
   verkrachten...Telkens is de achterliggende idee "het strekken van de arm om
   iets te grijpen". Zo ook in Zuidelijk Duitsland lijkt het.
   - schutten ~ shotten (= voetballen): Engelse invloed, I guess *s*. Toch
   wel wat verwonderlijk dat enkel Duitstalig Zwitserland de Zuidnederlandse
   lijn "volgt".
   - Nachtkästchen ~ nachtkaske: Ook Noord-Nederland doet hier met Beieren
   en Oostenrijk mee. Geen Nachttisch/nachtdis of iets dergelijks, zoals in de
   rest van Duitsland, maar wel nachtkast(je). Lijkt me niet op conto van de
   Romaanse wereld te schrijven.
   - Nastuch ~ neusdoek: De Brabantse woorden "neusdoek" en "snutdoek" (>
   snurk) (>< zakdoek, Taschentuch) komen eveneens voor in Duitstalig
   Zwitserland, Beieren en Oostenrijk. Geen Romaanse invloed. Denk persoonlijk
   dat het Nastuch/Schneuztuch-gebied vroeger veel groter moet geweest zijn,
   maar dat recentelijk Taschentuch opgerukt is vanuit het Noorden.
   - kehren/fegen: In grote lijnen is "fegen"/"vegen" Noordelijk en
   "kehren"/"keren" Zuidelijk. (Zuid)-Brabants, met zijn voorkeur voor "keren"
   sluit hier bij het Zuiden aan.


Waar er wel sprake kan zijn van ontlening uit de Romaanse wereld, gaat het
voor mij niet altijd over eenrichtingsverkeer. Het kan ook zo zijn dat een
bepaalde uitdrukking of zegswijze Frankisch van aard is, zich vervolgens
geconsolideerd heeft in het vroege "Frankenrijk", om dan eeuwen nadien toch
terug ingang te vinden in de grensgebieden.

Daarom ook dat ik het spijtig vind dat een dergelijk grootschalig
dialectproject zich politiek te correct gedraagt. Dat wil zeggen dat men wèl
geïnteresseerd is in medewerking uit Zwitserland, Oostenrijk en ook uit
Duitstalig België, maar niet in Elzasserduits of Nederlands. Meer specifiek
betekent dit bijvoorbeeld dat men wèl mensen uit het Belgische Eupen wil
bevragen, maar geen uit de naburige gemeenten Blieberg of Voeren, hoewel
deze dialectologisch een continuüm vormen. Wetenschappelijk onverantwoord.



Vriendelijke groetjes,



Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 01:05:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:05:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.170542.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Orthography
>

> If ordinary spelling does not fully indicate it, pronunciation ought
> to be shown in some other way in reference and teaching material.

I remember owning a Dutch-English English-Dutch dictionary where the
English-Dutch half gave the English pronunciations but the Dutch-English
half didn't give the Dutch pronunciations. Perhaps one of the main
reasons for me skipping Dutch at a time when I was trying to learn as
many languages as possible!

I agree that there are languages where a pronouncing dictionary isn't
absolutely necessary (Italian and Welsh spring to mind), but Dutch isn't
one of them!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Italian and Welsh orthographies are pretty close to be phonemically based,
but then have flaws also.

Welsh orthography does not distinguish long and short "y" (the long version
being written with a circumflex in better older dictionaries and textbooks).

In Italian, unpredictable stress is inconsistently marked, being unmarked
particularly often in proper names (e.g. *Bartoli* should be *Bártoli*).
Except in word-final position (where they are written *é* vs *è* and *ó* vs
*ò*) tense [e] and [o] are not distinguished from their lax counterparts [ɛ]
and [ɔ] respectively, phonemic differences that occur only in stressed
syllables.

Russian stress assignment, which is unpredictable, has important
ramifications in that unstressed syllables undergo more vowel reduction the
farther away they are from the stressed syllable, which in the case of /o/
involves unrounding. This can make words sound very different, often
unrecognizable to native speakers, if the wrong syllable is stressed. This
is why it is really important that the learner be given stress assignment
information, and the native speaker too in cases of newly learned words and
names. I would expect to find it in all reference and teaching material and
am therefore pleased that in this regard the Russian team plays an exemplary
role in the Wikipedia family with its predominance of sloppiness when it
comes to orthography and phonology.

Unfortunately, this sort of sloppiness predominates among all sorts of
on-line dictionaries as well. Try to find a Hebrew or Arabic dictionary with
vowel diacritics, for instance! If I as a non-native speaker look for Hebrew
or Arabic words in dictionaries I expect to find them spelled with vowel
diacritics. How else would I know how to pronounce them? Well, I guess I
could go to printed dictionaries to find out what the vowels of found words
are. But what good is the on-line dictionary then except for native speakers
that know a given word already? In that case I may as well go straight to
printed dictionaries, most of which do provide vowel diacritics. Online you
can even find Polynesian language dictionaries without vowel length
diacritics, in languages in which use of these diacritics is mandatory! ("I
don't know how to type those vowel letters with macrons. Ah, well ... I
s'pose I'll just ignore them then ... never mind that I'm presenting a
dictionary.")

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 15:41:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:41:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.23.DEC.2008.074158.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (10) [E]

Sandy: you make the following remark about the D/E—E/D dictionary.

I remember owning a Dutch-English English-Dutch dictionary where the
English-Dutch half gave the English pronunciations but the Dutch-English
half didn't give the Dutch pronunciations. Perhaps one of the main
reasons for me skipping Dutch at a time when I was trying to learn as
many languages as possible!

After the Dutch "Golden Age" in the 17th century, when many English speaking
people were interested in learning to speak Dutch, the interest gradually
waned and most D/E – E/D dictionaries were made for Dutch people who did
want to learn English. Most of them were printed in the Netherlands,
although often written by a combination of English, American and Dutch
authors. In the last 20 years there has been a renewed interest in the Dutch
language on the part of a younger generation of learners who either have
Dutch ancestors or were interested in what they considered to be the freedom
to be who you are in the Netherlands. Van Dale has recently published a
dictionary which is especially geared to expats. The whole thing is on CD.
The Dutch pronunciation is also given.

http://www.expatica.com/nl/essentials_moving_to/essentials/new-dutch-dictionary-speaks-to-expats-1856.html?ppager=2.
There is also a paper Dictionary issued by Routledge in England as well as
the US. I have heard that it is based on one of the Dutch dictionaries, but
that the Dutch pronunciation has been added. The author is N. Osselton.

Maybe you are still interested? Jacqueline
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 15:44:31 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:44:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.23 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.23.DEC.2008.074431.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]

On 23/12/2008, at 10:22 AM, Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]

So now every year we carol to ourselves and feed ourselves--US
*gringos,* Australian,
Austrian, British, Cuban, Dutch, Mexican, Nigerian, Phillipine, Puerto
Rican, Russian, Ukrainian...others have moved away...

"Tis the season to be jolly!" Live it up!

not in on emajor shopping mall here in Brisbane alas.

Yesterday the local Presbyterian Church Choir was singing carols when
management demanded they leave as their songs were TOO RELIGIOUS !

Folk like that believe Jesus should be thrown out of the manger and replaced
by Rudolph !Bah ! Humbug !!

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 19:42:15 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:42:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.23.DEC.2008.114215.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mailings

Dear Lowlanders,

Susan Smith of LINGUIST (our list server hosts) responded to our reports of
duplicate mail delivery.

As you can see (below) she and I suspect the same cause.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Dear Ron,
I checked the logs for the 19th, when Carolyn mentions that she saw a
duplicate posting.  They look fine, nothing out of the ordinary... I didn't
see any duplicates in the archives, which leads me to think that the problem
isn't happening on listserv's end.
Here's some possible causes that were mentioned in the Listserv Owner's
mailing list archives:

"The subscriber's email service reports a temporary delivery failure to the
LISTSERV mail handler (which will retry later) but actually accepted the
mail. Some spam-defense strategies sometimes work like this."
(Listserv said that all of the delivery errors on the 19th were not
permanent, however I guess this scenario could have occurred, because a
permanent error would mean the message was never delivered.)

I found this also: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/lsv-faq.stm#_Toc196887298

It's all pretty involved, however it sounds like the problem probably has to
do with the recipients' mail providers, so I'm not sure if it's a big enough
problem to get into contacting their providers etc.  If you had copies of
some of the duplicated messages, I could look at their headers to see where
the problem is occurring (or try to see, anyways).  I hope this makes sense,
although it's not terribly helpful.  Let me know if there's anything more I
can do, or if you'd like me to look at some of the duplicate messages.

Happy Holidays!
-Susan

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 23:18:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:18:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.23 (04) [E]
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (10) [E]

> > From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Orthography

> Italian and Welsh orthographies are pretty close to be phonemically
> based, but then have flaws also.
>
> Welsh orthography does not distinguish long and short "y" (the long
> version being written with a circumflex in better older dictionaries
> and textbooks).

I wouldn't call the Welsh thing a flaw, at least not with respect to
modern Welsh.

Rather, it follows the change in pronunciation when the regular stress
(stress is regularly on the penultimate syllable in Welsh) is displaced
due to the addition of a suffix.

The <y> in Welsh (southern Welsh as I'm familiar with it) is
pronounced /I/ when unstressed but /A/ when stressed (I need to set up
something to do IPA instead of falling back on SAMPA in this day and
age!), so for example, when we pluralise "mynydd" /'mAnID/ (mountain) we
get "mynyddion" /mIn'ADjon/.

So although the <y> represents two sounds it's entirely predictable
because the stress is predictable. And yet there's no changing of the
spelling of the root, which I think is quite neat.

In Welsh the circumflex is used when the stress falls on a syllable
other than the penultimate, to mark the stressed syllable. This is rare
and tends to happen in compound words where phrasal stress is used
rather than lexical stress, eg, "cwm bran" > (the town of) "Cwmbrân".

Y-circumflex is a different thing, where a few common words such as
"ty^" (house) have a different pronunciation (where I used to live, /i/)
and are thusly marked.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 24 13:48:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 05:48:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.24.DEC.2008.054825.0800.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.21 (05) [E/German]

Beste Luc,

Je schreef:

A number of Southern Dutch linguistic features seem to be in use in Southern
German as well (and not so much in Northern German/Standard Dutch):

   - Ich hab kein geld *für* ein Auto zu kaufen ~ Ik heb geen geld *voor* een
   auto te kopen (B)
   - Ich habe jetzt noch keinen Hunger *nicht** *~ Ik heb nu nog geen honger
   *niet* (B)
   - Denken *auf* etwas ~ peinzen *op* iets
   - Peter hat ein Kotelett *wollen essen* ~ Peter heeft een kotelet *willen
   eten*
   - *Lang* das nicht *an* ~ iemand *aanlangen* = iemand aanraken > iemand
   verkrachten (B)
   - schutten ~ shotten (= voetballen) (B)
   - Nachtkästchen ~ nachtkaske (B)
   - Nastuch ~ neusdoek (B)

Niet al de hierboven vermelde constructies gelden voor het hele
Zuidnederlandse taalgebied.

In het Getelands is item 2 niet bekend. Men zegt er: Ich hem nu nog genen
honger. Wel kent men er, net als in andere Znl. dialecten, de dubbele
negatie. Bv. nooit niet.

Wij peizen *aan* iets.

Een bijzonder geval is *neusdoek .* De betekenis is "een grote omslagdoek".
Een zakdoek is er een *tesneusdoek, *dus een tasneusdoek.

Beste groeten,

Roger Hondshoven
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 24 19:02:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:02:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.24.DEC.2008.110209.0800.>

=======================================================================

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 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (05) [E]

Hi Ron,



You wrote:



Personally, I don't much care what systems are used as long as they have at
least some consistency and internal integrity.



I do agree. I for myself, I'm definitely in favour of a phonemic spelling.
It's all very interesting to know that e.g. Dutch *pijl *and *peil*, which
today sound exactly the same, go back to 2 words with a different meaning
and a *different pronunciation* in the Middle Ages. The ordinary language
user does not derive any particular benefit from this knowledge. People who
do not agree will object that one and the same spelling for both words will
lead to misunderstanding, which, in my opinion, is complete nonsense. We
don't speak in single words. The meaning will become clear in the context of
a sentence. In 1946 the Spelling Commission for the Dutch language abolished
the distinction between e.ee and o/oo in open syllables as in *regen/deelen,
mogen/hooge.* But it failed, for obscure reasons, to do away with similar
distinctions between *rijk/reis, gauw/*gouw with homonynous diphthongs.



Regards,



Roger Hondshoven


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Thanks Roger. At least *one* person agrees with me. ;-)

When it comes to homophones, we don't get etymological clues in speech. Why
is it so important to get them in writing?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 24 19:17:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:17:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.24 (03) [D/E]
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Roger,



Je schreef:

A number of Southern Dutch linguistic features seem to be in use in Southern
German as well (and not so much in Northern German/Standard Dutch):

   - Ich hab kein geld *für* ein Auto zu kaufen ~ Ik heb geen geld *voor* een
   auto te kopen (B)
   - Ich habe jetzt noch keinen Hunger *nicht** *~ Ik heb nu nog geen
   honger *niet* (B)
   - Denken *auf* etwas ~ peinzen *op* iets
   - Peter hat ein Kotelett *wollen essen* ~ Peter heeft een kotelet *willen
   eten*
   - *Lang* das nicht *an* ~ iemand *aanlangen* = iemand aanraken > iemand
   verkrachten (B)
   - schutten ~ shotten (= voetballen) (B)
   - Nachtkästchen ~ nachtkaske (B)
   - Nastuch ~ neusdoek (B)

Niet al de hierboven vermelde constructies gelden voor het hele
Zuidnederlandse taalgebied.

In het Getelands is item 2 niet bekend. Men zegt er: Ich hem nu nog genen
honger. Wel kent men er, net als in andere Znl. dialecten, de dubbele
negatie. Bv. nooit niet.

Wij peizen *aan* iets.

Een bijzonder geval is *neusdoek .* De betekenis is "een grote omslagdoek".
Een zakdoek is er een *tesneusdoek, *dus een tasneusdoek.

Klopt dat niet elk kenmerk overal in het Zuiden bekend is. Dubbele (of zelfs
driedubbele) negatie met "niet" helemaal op het einde (zoals ook in het
Afrikaans) is me bekend uit mijn eigen dialect (West-Brabants), maar ook uit
het Brabants zoals dat in de omgeving van Aarschot gesproken wordt.



Wat zakdoeken betreft is het interessant dat je "tesneusdoek" opmerkt omdat
het bij Noordduits "Taschentuch" aansluit. Een klein zakdoekje zoals dat
soms als opsmuk in het borstzakje van een vest (het zgn. "täske") gestoken
wordt heet bij ons een "stoefferke". Iets groter van formaat is een normale
(stoffen) zakdoek, de zgn. "neusdoek". De nog grotere hoofddoeken die al
mijn buurvrouwen vroeger droegen (en zij waren geen moslima), worden "ne
snurk" of "e snurksken" genoemd. Hierbij lijkt "snurk" uit "snutdoek" of
"snutterik" geëvolueerd te zijn.



Prettige feesten nog!



Luc Hellinckx


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

I wonder if similarities of features between Southern Dutch and Southern
German are due to the Frankish band that ends in Franconia, Northern
Bavaria..

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/images/franconian.jpg

The reason why such features are absent in the north and on the coast in the
Low Frankish area could then be due to Frisian substrata.

Regards
Reinhard/Ron
who is being snowed in again and who's "Hannumas" party is on hold because
the key guest is stuck in Chicago's O'Hare Airport for a second day in a row
with a supposed guarantee of getting on a flight as late as on Friday ... So
we're partying by phone in the meantime, and I avoid the word "shower" in
the conversations.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 25 18:33:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:33:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.25.DEC.2008.103325.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]

In 1946 the Spelling Commission for the Dutch language abolished the
distinction between e.ee and o/oo in open syllables as in *regen/deelen,
mogen/hooge.* But it failed, for obscure reasons, to do away with similar
distinctions between *rijk/reis, gauw/*gouw with homonynous diphthongs.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven

RE: well, for me they are two completely different sounds;) and I suppose
half of the other speakers of Dutch dialects here still distinguish between
e/ee and o/oo as well.

(but of course the spoken standard doesnt, that's true - but older
Antwerpian people will still stretch out the second one a bit longer even
when (trying to) talk "properly"!)

And ei/ij, ou/au etc. are indeed only distinguished between in a few
unsignificant village dialects, but when it comes to the original point of
the discussion this is no problem, as learners/people using dictionaries or
reference works still without any exception can deduct the pronunciation.
Only native speakers have problems here. I think in 95% of the vocabulary,
you can be certain of the pronunciation if you know how the Dutch pronounce
these certain letters. Only combinations where one grapheme can represent
two sounds without any way of knowing which of them is in English/French
loan words, mainly in cases like ou (as in douche), or ch.

If anyone can give me more than 10 Dutch words not borrowed with weird
foreign spellings where the spelling does not tell how to pronounce the
word, I'll reconsider my words.

Diederik

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 25 19:09:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:09:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.25.DEC.2008.110910.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.23 (01) [E]

> From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (10) [E]
>

>
http://www.expatica.com/nl/essentials_moving_to/essentials/new-dutch-dictionary-speaks-to-expats-1856.html?ppager=2.
There is also a paper Dictionary issued by Routledge in England as well as
the US. I have heard that it is based on one of the Dutch dictionaries, but
that the Dutch pronunciation has been added. The author is N. Osselton.
>
> Maybe you are still interested? Jacqueline

No, Dutch had its window, and it blew it  :)

Seriously, the problem these days would be with time. I've never been a
language professional and no longer have time as a hobbyist, so these
days I will only learn a language if I foresee a definite use for it.

Over the past year I've been toying with the idea of learning the
Germanic languages as a group, however, so who knows if I might not bump
into Dutch again sometime in the future?  :)

Thanks for the explanation of how a dictionary comes to be in such a
state: that puts a different perspective on it!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 25 19:23:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:23:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.25.DEC.2008.112328.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.23 (02) [E]

> From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]
>

> Yesterday the local Presbyterian Church Choir was singing carols when
> management demanded they leave as their songs were TOO RELIGIOUS !
>
> Folk like that believe Jesus should be thrown out of the manger and
> replaced by Rudolph !Bah ! Humbug !!

Of course! No baby should be born in a manger. I bet it was Rudolph that
got the last room at the inn!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

I was wondering if we might yet get a final blast of vintage Sandy humor
before Sandy Day (a.k.a. Hogmaney a.k.a. New Year's Eve) as the finale of
2008 ... *et voilà*!

Nice to witness a rare banter round between two of my heroes of Scottish
wit.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I spent most of yesterday getting to and from the airport and waiting
in vain for someone to arrive. But there's progress: he's made it from
Chicago to San Francisco and is stuck there now. Here it started thawing,
and now it's snowing again ... "White Christmas"? Bah, humbug! And loads and
loads of e-mail messages awaited me back home, some of them from some of
you. Thanks.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 25 23:20:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:20:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.25.DEC.2008.152008.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (03) [E]

On 26/12/2008, at 5:23 AM, Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>wrote:

 > Folk like that believe Jesus should be thrown out of the manger and
> replaced by Rudolph !Bah ! Humbug !!

Of course! No baby should be born in a manger. I bet it was Rudolph that
got the last room at the inn!



Under NO circumstances Sandy !

Might I respectfully point out that reindeer were not Kosher.

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 26 19:57:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:57:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.DEC.2008.115733.0800.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]

I'm always reminded of a line from one of the Gospels (don't ask which one),
quoted in Anthony Burgess's "Language made Plain":

"Christ stood by the bier".

Try spelling that one phonetically!

Perhaps any Irish or French speakers can tell us how they feel about
phonetic spelling? Their orthography contains far more redundant letters
than English, and certainly than Dutch.

Paul


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hi, Paul!

"Christ stood by the bier".

Try spelling that one phonetically!


Phonetic? That would depend on the dialect; e.g.
IPA: kraɪst ˌstʊdætðə ˈbɪɚ
 SAMPA: kraIst %stUd{dD@ "bI@`

IPA: kɻaɪst ˌstʊdætðə ˈbiːɻ
 SAMPA: kr\`aIst %stUd{dD@ "bir\`


Phonemic (which is what we've been talking about) something like this,
depending on the system:

*Kraist stud at ðə bir.*
 or you could make it more "historical" and without "special" characters:
*Kriist stud at dhe bir.*
or with "special" characters:
*Krīst stŭd at ð**ĕ** bir.*

In other words, written representation would equal spoken representation.
Etymological (or historical) information is not provided in speech, and it
would not be in writing either. If the system is so designed, phonemic
representation (which deals with the basic, underlying level) would be
applicable to a range of dialects, unlike phonetic representation which
(dealing with the surface, that which is produced by application of
phonological rules) is dialect-specific and is only used for scientific and
didactic purposes.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.25 (01) [E]

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]

In 1946 the Spelling Commission for the Dutch language abolished the
distinction between e.ee and o/oo in open syllables as in *regen/deelen,
mogen/hooge.* But it failed, for obscure reasons, to do away with similar
distinctions between *rijk/reis, gauw/*gouw with homonynous diphthongs.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven

RE: well, for me they are two completely different sounds;) and I suppose
half of the other speakers of Dutch dialects here still distinguish between
e/ee and o/oo as well.

(but of course the spoken standard doesnt, that's true - but older
Antwerpian people will still stretch out the second one a bit longer even
when (trying to) talk "properly"!)

And ei/ij, ou/au etc. are indeed only distinguished between in a few
unsignificant village dialects, but when it comes to the original point of
the discussion this is no problem, as learners/people using dictionaries or
reference works still without any exception can deduct the pronunciation.
Only native speakers have problems here. Diederik

I would strongly object to referring to languages or dialects as
insignificant, be they spoken by less than a thousand people or half a
million. A rural dialect deserves as much interest as that of a big city.

Of course, you're absolutely right when you state that dialect speakers
clearly distinguish between words previously written with e/ee, o/oo,
between words written with *ij* and *ei*, *au* and *ou.* But that hardly
wasn't my point when I was discussing those (weird) spelling issues. I was
looking at the subject purely from the point of view of the standard
language, and particularly the clash between pronunciation and orthography.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 26 19:54:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:54:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.DEC.2008.115458.0800.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (04) [E]

--- On *Thu, 25/12/08, Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>* wrote:
From: Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (04) [E]
To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
Date: Thursday, 25 December, 2008, 11:20 PM

Under NO circumstances Sandy !

Aren't they? But they Divide the Hoof  and Chew the Cud!

Paul

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 27 06:16:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:16:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.DEC.2008.221621.0800.>

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (01) [E]

On 27/12/2008, at 5:54 AM,  Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
> wrote:

Aren't they? But they Divide the Hoof  and Chew the Cud!

So what ? Not only do they eat moss all day but no mention of them is made
in the Books of the Tanach.

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 27 22:44:50 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:44:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.DEC.2008.144450.0800.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (03) [E]

Hi Thomas, Paul & Co.



Subject: LL-L - Cuisine



Pardon me for joining this string...



You mention the seemliness of eating moss-eating reindeer in the context of
the tanakh.



The Bible does not make individual specifications *which* even-toed
ungulates are deemed fit to eat, only stipulating that such an animal must
do two things; part the hoof & chew the cud.  The pig is cited specifically
as an example of an animal which doesn't qualify. The rabbit is another; it
chews the cud but doesn't part the hoof. The horse & ass, notwithstanding a
totally vegetarian diet does neither. So also for the camel (actually camels
are primitive even-toed ungulates, but their hooves have evolved into the
toe-nail-like caps of broad desert-striding pads: Even so a desert people
would be damned fools to put them (or asses) in the dietary category.



On this subject, a reindeer is certainly kosher, but so is a giraffe.
However, those who respect this law have another hurdle to cross - they must
be slain strictly in accordance with Mosaic custum (which is carried down by
oral tradition, not in the Bible). The slaughter-beast must be humanely
killed, & with one quick stroke, using a smooth-bladed knife, razor-sharp,
twice as long as the animal's neck is broad, & the stroke of which
simultaneously severs both carotid arteries & the vagus nerve.



Moreover, according to Maimonaides any Jew may perform this office & every
Jewish household may be expected to possess this implement, so there are no
excuses for non-compliance.



Like to see that done with a giraffe.



Merry Christmas & Hannukka all!



Yrs,

Mark & Ruth

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 28 16:39:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:39:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2008.12.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.DEC.2008.083907.0800.>

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From: Roger Thijs <rogerthijs at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L Travels

I don't know whether the list accepts my yahoo address as sender, so I'm
sending this to both LL and Ron.

I'm in Bloubergstrand (a Northern suburb of Cape Town) between Xmas and New
Year. I had difficulties with finding my boutique hotel, since the maps one
finds in Europe are generally limited to downtown Cape Town (and the hotel
was 20 km to the North, along the shore).

A good and relatively recent street guide I found here:
MapStudio, Cape Town, including South-Western Cape towns, Cape Peninsula and
Winelands, 1:20.000, A14th edition, ISBN 978-1-86809-865-1, 312 pp.
For the best: one should check always for the very last edition.
Bloubergstrand is visibly expanding rapidly to the North (cf. several new
estates are in construction).

Since at many places the shore is rocky and hilly, most estates consists of
little houses, all painted white, constructed on terrace steps, so that all
or most have a nice view on table mountain about 15 miles to the South.
It can be very hot here, but most of the time there is a refreshing wind
from the South (a real paradise for surfers)

The shore is sandy though, and on low tide one can walk to several rocky
islands in see. Robben Island is in the direct West but too far away for
reaching with simple means.

There is little police here but one sees patrolling vehicles of Chubbs and
APT all the time. Most buildings also have a shield from APT or Chubbs or
both mentioning "armed response". I'm not sure what one fears over here.
Certainly not the black people since the "visible population" on streets and
strand is 95% Caucasian. It may be part of a protective culture and mindset.

Coming to languages.

A curious thing is the inconsistency with the spelling of the ou:
In Bloubergstrand it is ou, e.g. Blouberg Sands
In the suburb "Table View", a couple of mile to the South, it is aauw:
Blaauwberg road.

My perception of language use in this area (looks +90% blank, with many
tourists surfing on the strong Southern wind along the shore)):
- strong presence of Afrikaans in name giving of  streets and suburbs,
besides English. Some French, very few in native languages
- presence of Afrikaans for several dishes on menus in restaurants
- spoken languages in the street: 100 percent English heard
- black personnel in the hotel: English to all guests, something native
among each other.
- indications in airport, on roads: English only, English + Afrikaans on
older shields, as e.g. on older ATMs
- books in the shops: 95% English, 5% Afrikaans, 0% in native languages
(except for some phrase books and learner's guides)
- cards for birthdays, anniversaries etc. in the racks in shops, 80%
English, 20 % Afrikaans, 0% in native languages
- audio CDs: curiously 40% Afrikaans, 60% English in some shops, nothing in
native languages
This is just a perception by an outsider.

I have been looking for books on languages. The bookstore in the Seaside
Village shopping centre is focused on literature on cooking, but I found a
larger choice in the bookstores of a larger shopping centre, the Bayside
Centre in Table View.

The "Wêreldatlas vir Suid-Afrikaners", Sunbird, Kaapstad 2008, gives in
percentages for huistale (languages used at home):
isiZulu 23,8
isiXhosa 17,5
Afrikaans 13, 3
Seshoto sa Leboa/Sepedi 9,3
Engels 8,2
Setswana 8,2
Seshoto 7,9
Xitsonga 4,5
SiSwati 2,7
Tshivenda 2,3
IsiNdbele 1,6
(ander/other 0,5)

We try to see some similarities between the 7 official languages, with a
selection from:
J Bennet & N Tsoeu, Multilingual Illustrated Dictionary, Pharos, 2006,
Besides the pictures vocabulary is listed in this order:
English, IsiZulu, Sesotho, IsiXhosa, Setswana, Afrikaans, Sepedi

Some samples:

hair, izinwele, moriri, unwele, moriri, hare, moriri p 16
nose, ikhala, nko, impumlo, nko, neus, nko p 16
hand, isandla, seatla, isandla, seatla, hand, seatla p 18
talk, -khuluma, bua, thetha, bua, praat, bolela p 25
father, ubaba, ntate, utata, rre, pa, tate p 32
mother, umama, mme, umama, mme, ma, mma p 32
brother, umfowethu, abuti, umnakwe, morwarre, broer, morwarre p 33
snake, inyoka, noha, inyoka, noga, slang, noga p. 215
tree, isihlahla, sefate, umthi, setlhare, boom, mohlare p 221
egg, iqanda, lehe, iqanda, lee, eier, lee p 241
no, cha, tjhe, hayi, nnyaa, nee, aowa p 303
I have, ngina-, ke na le, Ndine, ke dirile, ek het, ke na p 303

car, imoto, koloi, imoto, koloi, motor, koloi p 114
motorcycle, isithuthuthu, sethuthuthu, isithuthuthu, sethuuthuu, motorfiets,
thuthuthu p 114
potato, izambane, tapole, itapile, tapole, aartappel, letapola p 234
violin, ivayolini, vaoline, ivayolini, serankure, viool, baolini p. 279

Since only one term is given per language, it is not excluded that the
version of another language may also be used as synonym in a first language.

Local food has a strong Afrikaans colour, even when served in English, some
experience:

Starters

Soup of the day, a very thick creamy Pampoensop,  R34 in Ons Huisie

Salad Cajun Chicken, A large dish with Cajun spiced strips of chicken on a
bed of mixed fresh lettuce, onion rings and other vegetables, R 47 in the
Bica Café of the Table View "Bay Side" shopping center.

Main dishes

Ostrich bobotie: Ostrich stewed with vegetables in a pot, finished with some
mango chutney on top, and lightly-cooked vegetables on side (including red
beet), R 70 in Ons Huisie

Prego Roll, a roll with very spicy meat (very hot), R 49.50 in the Blue
Peter, Popham St.

Mussel Potjie, a dozen of mussels in half of their shell, in a kind of
terrine filled with a tick creamy garlic sauce, served with bread, R 89.95
in the Cape Town Fish Market in the Seaside Village shopping Centre.
(Seaside Village is part of a progressing expansion to the North, it is not
yet on the maps or in the guides)

Deserts

Souskuitjies: pieces of bread in a vanilla pudding, with some cinnamon on
top , R 35 in Ons Huisie

I also visited the Frituurtje serving Belgian Fries in Table View,
Regular fries with mayonnaise, a curry sausage special (frikandel with on
top onion and curry ketch-up) and a Stella beer. R 75
The fries are tasty but cut from quite small potatoes, so one gets
additionally quite some crisps of tinny parts cut at the circumference (we
call that "kepsel" in my West-Limburgish) .
Although the Frituurtje is close to the shore, it is at the backside of a
little shopping estate and not easy to find.

I will draft a list of books of interest for the group later this week
(under subject "resources"). I'm sending this from an internet café, since I
have problems with my portable again.

Regards,
Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 28 16:46:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:46:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.DEC.2008.084607.0800.>

===========================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.27 (01) [E]

I take giraffe is out of the question then?



Paul

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (03) [E]

Thanks Mark; I replied to this thread before reading your explanation, which
clears things up nicely!



Paul

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.27 (01) [E]

Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:
> using a smooth-bladed knife, razor-sharp,
> twice as long as the animal's neck is broad

hmm, well at least they didn't say twice as long as the neck is LONG.

To quote Mark:
> Like to see THAT done with a giraffe.
[emphasis added]

Mike || マイク || माईक || Мика || માઈક || მაიქ || ਮਾਈਕ
מייק || மாஇக் || Miqueu || U C > || ما یک || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.) मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士) イシャラ基金の務理事・事務局
長 ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.27 (01) [E]

> From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (03) [E]
>
> Hi Thomas, Paul & Co.

> Subject: LL-L - Cuisine
[...]


> Moreover, according to Maimonaides any Jew may perform this
> office & every
> Jewish household may be expected to possess this implement,
> so there are no
> excuses for non-compliance.

> Like to see that done with a giraffe.

Mark,

Because of your infinite wisdom you certainly remember the following:

In New York there were a bunch of young jewish men [about 20 years ago] who
apparently had done their school homework very well and they had found out
that eating a giraffe would be okay for them.
But aware that rules and laws sometimes could be tricky, they first asked
the New York board of rabbi's to give their opinion.

In spite of several urgent requests the answer let wait for several years,
but satisfied all parties: they were right about eating the giraffe, but
-alas- because of the long neck a kosher slaughter of this noble animal was
not possible.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 28 17:14:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:14:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.DEC.2008.091409.0800.>

===========================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.26 (02) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hi, Paul!

"Christ stood by the bier".

Try spelling that one phonetically!


Phonetic? That would depend on the dialect; e.g.

IPA: kraɪst ˌstʊdætðə ˈbɪɚ
SAMPA: kraIst %stUd{dD@ "bI@`

IPA: kɻaɪst ˌstʊdætðə ˈbiːɻ
SAMPA: kr\`aIst %stUd{dD@ "bir\`

*Kraist stud at ðə bir.*
or you could make it more "historical" and without "special" characters:
*Kriist stud at dhe bir.*
or with "special" characters:
*Krīst stŭd at ðĕ bir.*



Hi Ron,   My point, admittedly somewhat tongue-in-cheek, was what beer was
he standing by?   And my reference to Irish and French was to question why
English gets singled out for its "irrational" spelling when there are far
worse culprits out there? Those of us who have managed to learn to read and
write English aren't some sort of geniuses; we just did it. If the World is
truly desperate for an international language with a completely regular
grammar and spelling, learn Esperanto.

Paul


---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hey, Paul, mi mayt!

How about this: we could turn this into a positive by confirming that we *
are* geniuses and letting the world wonder what we could have accomplished
with the time we spent on memorizing the spelling of practically each and
every word. ;-)

Besides, I personally do not single out English for "irrational" spelling.
It has company: Tibetan and (traditionally written) Mongolian.

These spelling systems are not "irrational" at all. They are "the most
extreme cases of historical spelling." Most spelling systems are at least
somewhat historical. And that's the main problem with sound-based written
representation. Phonologies constantly change, and thus spelling would have
to be reformed periodically, even if allowance for dialectical variations
are made. But, while retaining historical elements, most of them (such as
your examples Irish and French) have predominantly predictable spelling
because the *systems* remain mostly intact.

A system such as the Chinese one avoids all this, since it is quite
independent of sound (at least nowadays). But the price you pay for this is
that you have to learn thousands of characters, a pretty large percentage of
which are pretty complex. So it pretty much boils down to the same thing ...
except that a system such as the Chinese one could, at least in theory, be
used for all languages of the world. (Not that I would advocate that, mind
you.)

Cheerio!

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 29 20:43:43 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:43:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.124343.0800.>

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From: Roger Thijs <rogerthijs at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L resources

Thanks for comments sent to me by some of the list.
I must say, reading Afrikaans newspapers as Son, Die Burger, gives no real
problems. Understanding spoken Afrikaans is an other thing, and when
(incidentally) on SABC TV, I often do not not recognize it as Afrikaans at
all. Unfortunately I have to say that fortunately everybody spreaks English
in my neighbourhood. I accidentally answered in Dutch when called on my GSM
today at noon. The caller I have to meet to-norrow replied in perfect Dutch,
with an Hollandish accent.
I must add that some caucasians here speak a kind of English, which is also
quite difficult to understand. It appears a bit alike more Northern English
dialects (Manchester???)

I promised to list some language resources I found.
Here it comes:

1 – Afrikaans language

F.F. Odendal & R.H. Gouws
HAT
Verklarende Handwoordenboek van die Afrikaanse Taal
Vyfde uitgawe [2005], tweede druk 2007   [Eerste uitgawe = 1965]
Pearson Education South Africa, Kaapstad, www.pearsoned.co.za
xxi + 1448 pp, ISBN 978-1-868-91243-8, R 350

Dalene Müller,
Skryf Afrikaans van A tot Z
De essensiële gids vir taalgebruikers,
Eerste uitgawe  [2003], vierde druk 2007,
Pharos Woordeboeke, Kaapstad, www.pharos.co.za
718 pp, ISBN 978-1-86890-037-4,  R 229

Beryl Lutrin, Afrikaans handbook & study guide,
An English student's guide to Afrikaans,
(Senior Primary to Matric and Beyond)
Revised Edition [2004], reprint September 2008 [1st edition = September
1999]
Berlut Books, www.afrikaanshandbook.co.za
120 pp, ISBN 978-0-620-32584-4,  R 159

2 – Multilingual

John Bennet & Ntuseng Tsoeu
Multilingual Illustrated Dictionary
English, IsiZulu, Sesotho, IsiXhosa, Setswana, Afrikaans, Sepedi
First edition 2006,
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town
373 pp., 978-0-7021-6712-6, R 160

Isabel Uys,
The English Afrikaans Xhosa Zulu Aid
Word Lists & Phrases in Four Languages
Second edition  [2002], Ninth Impression 2008 [First edition = 1966
Quellerie Publishers]
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town,
 xii + 195 pp, ISBN 978-1-868-90036-7,  R 113

3 – Xhosa

Learn Xhosa with Anne Munnik, New Edition
- book
Fourth edition [2006], third impression 2008, [First edition = 1994]
Shuter & Shooter, Pietermaritzburg  www.shuters.com
xiv + 200 pp,  ISBN 978-07960-2672-9,  R 143
- CD
27 tracks, barcode 9-780796-029294, R 121

Collins Xhosa phrasebook,
First published 2008-12-28
Harper Collins Publishers, www.collinslanguage.com
256 pp, ISBN 978-0-00-726688-3, R 87

English-Xhosa Xhosa-English Dictionary
Second edition [First Printing 1998], Eleventh printing 2008
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town
iv + 81 pp (3 cols/page) , ISBN 978-1-86890-009-1, R 74.95

Afrikaans-Xhosa Xhosa-Afrikaans Woordeboek,
Tweede uitgawe, eerste druk 2005
Pharos Woordeboeke, Kaapstad
iii + 90 pp (3 cols/page), ISBN 978-1-86890-057-2,  R 54.95

4 – Afrikaans on CD and DVD

I bought, without yet having a possibility to listen, just based on their
positioning as toppers in the shelves of the store:
- Desmond Wells, 'n Stukkie van jou hart, Hoezit Musiek, 2008, CD HOEZD88, R
99.95
- Wicus van der Merwe, hie' komme ding, Select Musiek 2004, CD SELBCD490, R
79.95
- Arno Jordaan, Beste Afrikaanse Hits, EMI esounds, CD 5099924310727, R
99.95
- Rapport, Ons sing jou taal 5, Select Musiek 2008, CD SELBCD 763, R 109.95
- Afrikaans is groot, Sluit in die jaar se grootste treffers, 2008 Coleske
Artists, DVD barcode 6-009516-607813, R 159.95
- Jacques De Coning, Afrikaans my trots, Select Musiek 2007, SELDVD 7022, R
99.95
I will listen to it when back in Belgium. Just hope it is understandable.

5 – South-Africa, history and culture

Hermann Gikiomee & Bernard Mbenga
New History of South Africa
2007, first edition, first printing
Tafelberg Cape Town   www.tafelberg.com
x + 454 pp., ISBN 978-0-624-04359-1, R 350
 [Comment: at home I have a "Geskiedenis of SA" dating from the seventies,
dealing extensively with the language issue (recognition of Afrikaans on May
27, 1025). In the New History the subject is briefly touched on p 253, mixed
with an other issue (refusal of bilingualism by English speakers);
Interesting though is an article p 71 with title "The rise of Afrikaans".
After describing the use of Dutch as e.g. by reading the Staten bible in the
eighteenth century, the author concludes "Without the continued use of
Dutch, particularly in the church and as written medium, Afrikaans would to
all probability have been swept aside by English in the nineteenth century".
With an illustration of Afrikaans in Arabic characters, with comment "Arabic
Afrikaans Muslims were the first to use Afrikaans in printed form."]

H.W. Claassen, De geskiedenis van Boerekos 1652-1806
[kos = food]
2006, Eerste uitgawe, eerste druk,
Pretoria, Proea Boekhuis
511 pp, ISBN 1-!§919-106-4, R 99 as a special sales action
[Comment: very interesting links with European and other cooking of the
period]

Wêreldatlas vir Suid-Afrikaners
2008, Eerste Suid-Afrikaanse uitgawe [eerst uitgegee as Collins World Atlas
2003, angepas in 2008]
Sunbird, Kaapstad, www.sunbirdpublishers.co.za
240 pp., ISBN 978-1-919938-95-0, R 254
[Comment: The dedicated South-African part goes from p 8 till 41
Traditional groups and languages are dealt with p. 15
For the Benelux p.72 some Flemish towns have also the French name listed as
e.g. "Roeselare (Roulers)". French towns with a Dutch name do not get the
Dutch version inversely (Liège, Arlon, Lille). Even bilingual municipalities
only get a French name (Enghien, Mouscron).
Cologne is listed as "Keulen (Köln)" but Aachen has to do with German only.
The "Straat van Dover" on the map is rather called "Nauw van Cales" in
Dutch.
So unfortunately Dutch was poorly used when translating the Collins junk
into Afrikaans.]

Kevin Winter, Catherine Oelofse & Jean Borraro,
Oxford senior atlas vir Suider – Afrika
2002, sesde druk 2008
Oxford UP Southern Africa, Kaapstad
96 pp., ISBN 978-0-19-578296-7, R 114.95
[Comment: The dedicated South-African part goes from p 4 till 37
A breakdown of the languages spoken is on p. 22
The general part has only maps of Europe p. 76 and 77, no details for the
Benelux]
Nevertheless "Ryssel (Lille)" is on the map p. 77 in both language
versions.]

South-Africa at a Glance, 2008-2009
History – Politics – Economy – Trade – Tourism – Statistics
14th edition
Editors Inc., Greenside   www.southafricaataglance.com
240 pp (pocket size), ISBN 978-0-620-40443-3, R 59.95^
[languages p. 38
11 home languages are listed as official, the percentages below are
estimated from a diagram:
Zulu 24
Xhosa 17
Afrikaans 13
Pedi 9
Tswana 8
English 8
Sotho 7
Tsango 4
Swati 3
Venda 3
Ndebele 2]

Regards,
Roger



----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks for the great resource list, Roger. This is really great.

It shouldn't be too surprising that it is difficult, at least at first, to
understand Afrikaans, even from a Dutch-speaking perspective. I think this
is a typical situation within the group of Lowlands language, with the
exception of English to which most of us have been sufficiently exposed and
can't help being exposed to these days.

Some time ago I heard André Rieux speak Limburgish on TV. I didn't look at
the subtitles. At first I understood little, in part because I expected to
hear Dutch. I watched the same clip again more than a year later and was
prepared for it being Limburgish, and I understood virtually everything. As
for Dutch, I can read anything, but I can't understand the speech of
everyone right away, speed being an important factor, but understanding
improves the longer I listen. The same applies to Afrikaans, Frisian and
Scots.

Exposure is really what it's all about. For this reason we really need more
audio material, and the amount of audio material is in fact increasing
rapidly, especially now that many broadcasting stations have on-line
representation and sites such as You Tube allow people to post video clips.

I suggest we consider updating our resources list and add a special audio
section.

Thanks again, Roger, and enjoy the rest of your stay in South Africa!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 29 20:44:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:44:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.124454.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2008 - Volume 01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page
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===========================================


From: Roger Thijs <rogerthijs at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L resources

Thanks for comments sent to me by some of the list.
I must say, reading Afrikaans newspapers as Son, Die Burger, gives no real
problems. Understanding spoken Afrikaans is an other thing, and when
(incidentally) on SABC TV, I often do not not recognize it as Afrikaans at
all. Unfortunately I have to say that fortunately everybody spreaks English
in my neighbourhood. I accidentally answered in Dutch when called on my GSM
today at noon. The caller I have to meet to-norrow replied in perfect Dutch,
with an Hollandish accent.
I must add that some caucasians here speak a kind of English, which is also
quite difficult to understand. It appears a bit alike more Northern English
dialects (Manchester???)

I promised to list some language resources I found.
Here it comes:

1 – Afrikaans language

F.F. Odendal & R.H. Gouws
HAT
Verklarende Handwoordenboek van die Afrikaanse Taal
Vyfde uitgawe [2005], tweede druk 2007   [Eerste uitgawe = 1965]
Pearson Education South Africa, Kaapstad, www.pearsoned.co.za
xxi + 1448 pp, ISBN 978-1-868-91243-8, R 350

Dalene Müller,
Skryf Afrikaans van A tot Z
De essensiële gids vir taalgebruikers,
Eerste uitgawe  [2003], vierde druk 2007,
Pharos Woordeboeke, Kaapstad, www.pharos.co.za
718 pp, ISBN 978-1-86890-037-4,  R 229

Beryl Lutrin, Afrikaans handbook & study guide,
An English student's guide to Afrikaans,
(Senior Primary to Matric and Beyond)
Revised Edition [2004], reprint September 2008 [1st edition = September
1999]
Berlut Books, www.afrikaanshandbook.co.za
120 pp, ISBN 978-0-620-32584-4,  R 159

2 – Multilingual

John Bennet & Ntuseng Tsoeu
Multilingual Illustrated Dictionary
English, IsiZulu, Sesotho, IsiXhosa, Setswana, Afrikaans, Sepedi
First edition 2006,
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town
373 pp., 978-0-7021-6712-6, R 160

Isabel Uys,
The English Afrikaans Xhosa Zulu Aid
Word Lists & Phrases in Four Languages
Second edition  [2002], Ninth Impression 2008 [First edition = 1966
Quellerie Publishers]
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town,
 xii + 195 pp, ISBN 978-1-868-90036-7,  R 113

3 – Xhosa

Learn Xhosa with Anne Munnik, New Edition
- book
Fourth edition [2006], third impression 2008, [First edition = 1994]
Shuter & Shooter, Pietermaritzburg  www.shuters.com
xiv + 200 pp,  ISBN 978-07960-2672-9,  R 143
- CD
27 tracks, barcode 9-780796-029294, R 121

Collins Xhosa phrasebook,
First published 2008-12-28
Harper Collins Publishers, www.collinslanguage.com
256 pp, ISBN 978-0-00-726688-3, R 87

English-Xhosa Xhosa-English Dictionary
Second edition [First Printing 1998], Eleventh printing 2008
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town
iv + 81 pp (3 cols/page) , ISBN 978-1-86890-009-1, R 74.95

Afrikaans-Xhosa Xhosa-Afrikaans Woordeboek,
Tweede uitgawe, eerste druk 2005
Pharos Woordeboeke, Kaapstad
iii + 90 pp (3 cols/page), ISBN 978-1-86890-057-2,  R 54.95

4 – Afrikaans on CD and DVD

I bought, without yet having a possibility to listen, just based on their
positioning as toppers in the shelves of the store:
- Desmond Wells, 'n Stukkie van jou hart, Hoezit Musiek, 2008, CD HOEZD88, R
99.95
- Wicus van der Merwe, hie' komme ding, Select Musiek 2004, CD SELBCD490, R
79.95
- Arno Jordaan, Beste Afrikaanse Hits, EMI esounds, CD 5099924310727, R
99.95
- Rapport, Ons sing jou taal 5, Select Musiek 2008, CD SELBCD 763, R 109.95
- Afrikaans is groot, Sluit in die jaar se grootste treffers, 2008 Coleske
Artists, DVD barcode 6-009516-607813, R 159.95
- Jacques De Coning, Afrikaans my trots, Select Musiek 2007, SELDVD 7022, R
99.95
I will listen to it when back in Belgium. Just hope it is understandable.

5 – South-Africa, history and culture

Hermann Gikiomee & Bernard Mbenga
New History of South Africa
2007, first edition, first printing
Tafelberg Cape Town   www.tafelberg.com
x + 454 pp., ISBN 978-0-624-04359-1, R 350
 [Comment: at home I have a "Geskiedenis of SA" dating from the seventies,
dealing extensively with the language issue (recognition of Afrikaans on May
27, 1025). In the New History the subject is briefly touched on p 253, mixed
with an other issue (refusal of bilingualism by English speakers);
Interesting though is an article p 71 with title "The rise of Afrikaans".
After describing the use of Dutch as e.g. by reading the Staten bible in the
eighteenth century, the author concludes "Without the continued use of
Dutch, particularly in the church and as written medium, Afrikaans would to
all probability have been swept aside by English in the nineteenth century".
With an illustration of Afrikaans in Arabic characters, with comment "Arabic
Afrikaans Muslims were the first to use Afrikaans in printed form."]

H.W. Claassen, De geskiedenis van Boerekos 1652-1806
[kos = food]
2006, Eerste uitgawe, eerste druk,
Pretoria, Proea Boekhuis
511 pp, ISBN 1-!§919-106-4, R 99 as a special sales action
[Comment: very interesting links with European and other cooking of the
period]

Wêreldatlas vir Suid-Afrikaners
2008, Eerste Suid-Afrikaanse uitgawe [eerst uitgegee as Collins World Atlas
2003, angepas in 2008]
Sunbird, Kaapstad, www.sunbirdpublishers.co.za
240 pp., ISBN 978-1-919938-95-0, R 254
[Comment: The dedicated South-African part goes from p 8 till 41
Traditional groups and languages are dealt with p. 15
For the Benelux p.72 some Flemish towns have also the French name listed as
e.g. "Roeselare (Roulers)". French towns with a Dutch name do not get the
Dutch version inversely (Liège, Arlon, Lille). Even bilingual municipalities
only get a French name (Enghien, Mouscron).
Cologne is listed as "Keulen (Köln)" but Aachen has to do with German only.
The "Straat van Dover" on the map is rather called "Nauw van Cales" in
Dutch.
So unfortunately Dutch was poorly used when translating the Collins junk
into Afrikaans.]

Kevin Winter, Catherine Oelofse & Jean Borraro,
Oxford senior atlas vir Suider – Afrika
2002, sesde druk 2008
Oxford UP Southern Africa, Kaapstad
96 pp., ISBN 978-0-19-578296-7, R 114.95
[Comment: The dedicated South-African part goes from p 4 till 37
A breakdown of the languages spoken is on p. 22
The general part has only maps of Europe p. 76 and 77, no details for the
Benelux]
Nevertheless "Ryssel (Lille)" is on the map p. 77 in both language
versions.]

South-Africa at a Glance, 2008-2009
History – Politics – Economy – Trade – Tourism – Statistics
14th edition
Editors Inc., Greenside   www.southafricaataglance.com
240 pp (pocket size), ISBN 978-0-620-40443-3, R 59.95^
[languages p. 38
11 home languages are listed as official, the percentages below are
estimated from a diagram:
Zulu 24
Xhosa 17
Afrikaans 13
Pedi 9
Tswana 8
English 8
Sotho 7
Tsango 4
Swati 3
Venda 3
Ndebele 2]

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks for the great resource list, Roger. This is really great.

It shouldn't be too surprising that it is difficult, at least at first, to
understand Afrikaans, even from a Dutch-speaking perspective. I think this
is a typical situation within the group of Lowlands language, with the
exception of English to which most of us have been sufficiently exposed and
can't help being exposed to these days.

Some time ago I heard André Rieux speak Limburgish on TV. I didn't look at
the subtitles. At first I understood little, in part because I expected to
hear Dutch. I watched the same clip again more than a year later and was
prepared for it being Limburgish, and I understood virtually everything. As
for Dutch, I can read anything, but I can't understand the speech of
everyone right away, speed being an important factor, but understanding
improves the longer I listen. The same applies to Afrikaans, Frisian and
Scots.

Exposure is really what it's all about. For this reason we really need more
audio material, and the amount of audio material is in fact increasing
rapidly, especially now that many broadcasting stations have on-line
representation and sites such as You Tube allow people to post video clips.

I suggest we consider updating our resources list and add a special audio
section.

Thanks again, Roger, and enjoy the rest of your stay in South Africa!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 29 21:36:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:36:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.133647.0800.>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]

Okay, I REALLY should NOT be even LOOKING at my Lowlands List emails,
let alone be ebignpulled into replying ... I was informed that the
5-year strategic plan for our NGO which I agreed to get donde in 2
weeks when asked 3 days ago, now is being "requested" by tomorrow
morning! For a meeting with our main funder (and since lately I do not
get on well personally with the COO fo the fundign organization, I am
HAPPY to have it ready fro when our trustee (in town only for this
week) meets with him and the CEO. Even workign all night is better
than havign to sit face-to-face with ... at leats until this hissy-fit
(exaccerbated by my sharp sarcastic emaisl I am afraid but must admit)
blows over.

Anyway, a BRIEF addtion to Rogers resources list, from books I got
when i was in the opposite send of ZA a couple-three years ago:

1. Zooming in on Zulu: a Phrasebook and Much (2004) more
2. Clicking with Xhosa: a Xhosa Phrasebook. (2001)
BOTH by: Bev. Kirsch & Silvia Skorge. Cape Town: David Philip Publ.
 OKAY, the "cutE" names are the BIGGEST appeal, but they are actually
not bad "teach yourself" style books

3. HW Paul & Dm Ntusi (1983) isiXhosa. Johannesburg: Educum Uitgewers.
 A VERY nice grammar of Xhosa ... in XHosa (which for me was a big
PLUS, but for some MIGHT be seen as a hindrance)

4. DJ Lombard (1985) Inleiding tot de Grammatica van Noord-Sotho.
Pretoria: JL van Schaik.
5. LJ Louwrens (1991) Aspects of Northern Sotho Grammar. Pretoria: Via
Afrika Ltd.
 The former is advertised as "also available in English as ..."
 Unlike where Roger is staying, Hatfield, in pretoria, where i spent
the 1st adn last weeks of my 2 months plus in ZA is an EXCELLENT place
for books in "native languages" (though one migth argue that Afrikaans
IS a natiev language, ne c'est pas?) There was a van Schaik's (mayeb
THE main store?9 and a GREAT bookstore with loads of new and used
books. hatfield also has a Sunday fleamarket with plenty of books ...
though THOSE are in English and Afrikaans without exception. BUT, some
good Afrikaans bargains to be had (My Afrikaans literature is mostly
still in Japan, so I can't give you a thorough list ... only that NOT
at the fleamarket i got the two vols that have been put out so far of
Breyten Breytenbach's collected poetry. :-)))))

6. PC Taljaard & SE Bosch (1988) Handbook of isiZulu. Pretoria: JL van
Schaik.
7. PC Taljaard, JN Khuma & SM Bosch (1991) Handbook fo Siswati.
Pretoria: JL van Schaik.

many more ... but those are what i have at hand ...

OKAY, back to reprot writing. :-((((((

Mike || マイク || माईक || Мика || માઈક || მაიქ || ਮਾਈਕ
מייק || மாஇக் || Miqueu || U C > || ما یک || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.) मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士) イシャラ基金の務理事・事務局
長 ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 29 22:29:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:29:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.29 (04) [A/E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.142937.0800.>

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From: Tommie Cronje <tommiecronje at slingshot.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]

Hi Reinhard/Ron,

Sorry, I haven't been following the thread, so am not quite sure about why
you are in South Africa and what your mission is regarding Afrikaans. I
scanned your list and saw that two authoratitive works about Afrikaans
aren't on your list:

Die Afrikaanse Woordelys en Spelreels (Wiki says: Die *Afrikaanse woordelys
en spelreëls* (*AWS*) is 'n publikasie van die Suid-Afrikaanse Akademie vir
Wetenskap en Kuns<http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suid-Afrikaanse_Akademie_vir_Wetenskap_en_Kuns>met
spelreëls, 'n woordelys en 'n afkortingslys vir
Afrikaans <http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans>. Die eerste uitgawe het
in 1917 <http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917> verskyn, en dit is sedertdien
gereeld bygewerk. Die
Taalkommissie<http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taalkommissie>van die
Suid-Afrikaanse
Akademie vir Wetenskap en
Kuns<http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suid-Afrikaanse_Akademie_vir_Wetenskap_en_Kuns>stel
hierdie publikasie op met die primêre doel om leiding te gee ten
opsigte van spelling.)

And the Tweetalige Woordeboek (Bosman). Check all the details here:
https://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/6854223/used/Tweetalige%20woordeboek%20:%20Afrikaans-Engels,%20Engels-Afrikaans

There are also a plethora of technical Afrikaans dictionaries.

This might interest you:
http://ntww1.csir.co.za/plsql/ptl0002/PTL0002_PGE157_MEDIA_REL?MEDIA_RELEASE_NO=7434395

Generally speaking www.kalahari.net is considered the best online bookstore,
although I couldn't find the Bosman dictionary there.

Hope this is useful?

Tommie Cronje

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks a lot, Tommie, and welcome to the podium!

I will add these resources as soon as I can.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 01:40:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:40:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.29 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.174048.0800.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.29 (04) [A/E]

> And the Tweetalige Woordeboek (Bosman).

For us Afrikaans LEARNERS,
Madaleine du Plessis' Tweetalige Aanleerders-woordeboek / Bilingual
Learner's Dictionary
is a GREAT addition to any list. Loads of examples to guide us through
questions of usage, etc. and to provide just plain simple models.

(Having cut my lexicographic teeth on EXCELLENT Soviet Dictionaries
(printed on TERRIBLE paper!), I am now of the strong opinion that no
dictionary without at least TWO sample sentences illustrating each and
every sense of each and every word is worth two grains of salt.)

Mike || マイク || माईक || Мика || માઈક || მაიქ || ਮਾਈਕ
מייק || மாஇக் || Miqueu || U C > || ما یک || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.) मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士) イシャラ基金の務理事・事務局
長 ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Mike:

(Having cut my lexicographic teeth on EXCELLENT Soviet Dictionaries
(printed on TERRIBLE paper!), I am now of the strong opinion that no
dictionary without at least TWO sample sentences illustrating each and
every sense of each and every word is worth two grains of salt.)


I second that with a resounding voice and add to it the following:

   - plural forms (at least unpredictable ones)
   - all necessary strong verb forms (and appended paradigms of weak verbs)
   - labeling like "casual", "formal", "literary", "vulgar", etc.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Tommie Cronje <tommiecronje at slingshot.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]

And as far as music goes, the doyenne of Afrikaans music is the artist
called Laurika Rauch. Other artists that I think are original, are Herman
van den berg and Chris Chameleon.

The biggest magazine in Africa, is Die Huisgenoot. (I personally think it's
sensationalist and an insult to intelligenceL)

The hippest Afrikaans magazine is "De Kat".

Would you mind sending me a short synopsis of why you're there and what your
aims are? I might be able to help in some ways.

Alles van die beste,

Tommie
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 15:21:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:21:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "News" 2008.12.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.072136.0800.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L Update on Bombay

This is NOT a Lowlands topic, per se, but just thought maybe a SHORT
note was in order.

It is one month after the terrorist attack on Bombay / Mumbai.
Although often things are being described aS "back to normAL", in fact
it is at least equal parts "they never changed".

I am of course talkign about the life of the general populace, NOT
that of those who lost friend and family (as one of our trustees did).

As for the MOOD, it is maybe equal parts "bomb pakistan to
smithereeens before they know what hit them", fatalism, and "lynch all
politicians".


The first is because, although the the cultural and economic capital
of india, it is also the capital of Indian nationalism. Shiv Sena, MNS
(a Maharasthra for marathas regionalist party) and BJP (a political
offshoot of Shiv Sena and a nationalist, borderline Hindutva party)
are ALL strong here. (MY neighborhood, and the neighboring town of
thane are VERY strongly Shiv sena and MNS. In fact a large poster of
the head of the Shiv Sena, who is uncle to the head of the MNS, is
posted illegally just in front of my apartment, blocking the view to
the park just across the way. No one dares complain fro fear of 1)
harassment by party thugs (goons I think comes to English I think not
surprisingly from Hindi!), and 2) because they know the police are 90%
in the pockets of the above 3 groups.

The second is what we have been taught in the west is the Oriental way
of looking at life.

The third is 95% of the English press and it seems 95% of the
"westernized" (not exactly synonymous with "educated", but the two are
close) populace. (Bombay may, for those who cannot imagine, have more
English language daily newspapers than any city in the world. Some of
them quite excellent.) This week's "Sunday Indian", a weekly news
magaizine (of the Time and Newsweek variety), which comes out weekly
in English and biweekly in 13 regional and national languages and
costs just 10 rupees (about 22 US cents) so is affordable to the
average person who would be inclined to read it, had the most fiery
editorial i think i have EVER read anywhere ... calling politicians
every name in the book (but no 4-letter ones --- there are many that
are MUCH stronger that those!), and stopping a hair's breadth short of
calling for their public lynching (which may in fact be illegal).

BUT equal parts in this same English press is the message that ... and
it is our own damned fault. Which, of course, in the world's largest
democracy it should be.

my 50-paisa commentary on life in the city ...

Mike || マイク || माईक || Мика || માઈક || მაიქ || ਮਾਈਕ
מייק || மாஇக் || Miqueu || U C > || ما یک || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.) मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士) イシャラ基金の務理事・事務局長 ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 15:31:02 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:31:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.30 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.073102.0800.>

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From: Tommie Cronje <tommiecronje at slingshot.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.29 (05) [E]

Hi, I saw that one on the kalahari.net website. I'm not an expert on
Afrikaans, although I am a native speaker (of Afrikaans) and teacher of
English (in New Zealand), so anyone who'd like to ask anything or maybe even
would like to do conversation classes over the telephone or internet – let
me know. Sorry if offering this is against the rules of this forum (it just
sprang to mind), and if it is, please remove this post. Thanks, T.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks again, Tommie, also for your consideration to the rules.

I admit that the "no commercials" rule is somewhat vague, and there's a fine
line there somewhere. Personally, I feel that members announcing a for-pay
service once in a while should be all right, on the same level as announcing
that a member teaches a course at some school, or announcing the publication
of a member's book, CD or such, which we have been doing for a long time. I
think it's a matter of (low) volume and intensity.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 16:08:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:08:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.080819.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Dear Lowlanders,

New Year's Eve is almost upon us and some of you might like to share how
they used to celebrate it in the cultural Lowlands environment of their
youth and how that differs from the way they celebrate it these days, if at
all.

In Low-Saxon-speaking Northern Germany traditions vary from location to
location. The two predominant names for New Year's Eve (aside from German *
Sylvester*) are *Oljahrsavend* (*Oldjaarsavend* "Old Year's Eve") and *
Fastelavend*. The latter of these names seems to point at some confusion
that occurred with the coming of the Reformation and the abandonment of
Carnival (*Fastnacht* "fasting night"). Some of the customs seem to have
been transferred from Carnival to New Year's Eve, probably in conjunction
with pre-Christian Winter Solstice customs. Especially the making of noise
comes to mind, as does going from house to house in disguise and singing for
tokens of appreciation from the inhabitants. This, of course, is also
related to Halloween customs of Britain and its overseas offshoots. We still
followed this custom when I was a child, and even then it was a far cry from
what used to be done in earlier days when the *Rummelpott* (known on the
Netherlands side as *foekepot*, *rommelpot*, *foekerommelpot*) used to be
played (a friction drum known in Dutch as *rommelpot*, in Danish as *
rummelpot*, in Limburgish as *foekepot*, in German as *Brummtopf*, in
Italian as* caccavella*, in Spanish as* zambomba*, in Portuguese as *
sarronca*, in Romanian as *buhai*, in Ukrainian as *бугай*), in Hungarian as
*köcsögduda*, and in Basque as *eltzagor*, all being associated with
end-of-the-year traditions and/or Martinmas).


Here is a ditty in Low Saxon of Achterhoek on the Netherlands side of the
border:



*Foekepotterij, foekepotterij,*

*geef mien 'n cent, dan gao ik weer veurbij.*

*ik heb geen geld um brood te kopen,*

*deurum mot ik met de foekepotte lopen.*

*Foekepotterij, foekepotterij,*

*geef mien 'n cent, dan gao ik weer veurbij.*


And one from Northern Germany:



*Fruken, maak de Dœr op!
De Rummelpott will rin.
Daar kümmt een Schipp ut Holland,
de hett keen goden Wind.
Schipper, wullt du wieken,
Bootsmann, wullt du strieken.
Sett de Segel op de Topp,
und giff mi wat in´n Rummelpott!*



And for us here at Lowlands-L New Year's Eve comes with a bonus in that it
is the birthday of our own Sandy Fleming (sandy at scotstext.org) and Roger
Thijs (roger.thijs at euro-support.be), each of them "Mr. Resources" in his own
right.

Happy birthday, Sandy and Roger!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 21:22:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:22:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E/LS/S]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.132216.0800.>

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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]

Moi Leeglaanders,

Oldejaorsdag dan begunt 't bij oonz in 't Oogeveine al vrog  't Dreinse
kampioenschöp carbidschieten.

Dat hold in, dat der een vieftiental dielnemers in een rij naost mekaar
staot en op commando probeert umme mit een dartig liters melkbusse

mit brokken carbid van zestig gram en een bèetie water der bij

een voetballe of de orgienele deksel van de melkbusse die stevig in de
opening van de melkbusse past zo wied meugelijk weg te schieten.

Kiek mar ies op dizze link.

http://www.carbidbus.nl/Carbid1/Carbid_films/carbid_films.html

Wieder hebt wij ok nog oonze euliebollen en as traditie de speciale wafels
de aoldejaorsknieperties en neijaorsrollegies

't Bint dezölfde wafels mar an 't ende van 't olde jaor èet wij 't
kniepertien de wafel is dan gewoon plat want 't jaor is ontvolden.

En op neijaorsdag 't neiejaorsrollegie de wafels bint dan op-erold want dan
begunt wij weer an een onbekend nei jaor

Van dizze kaante van LL hartelijk fielsetèerd Sandy en Roger en veur alle
leeglaanders Gelok in 't neie jaor…..

1.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to mind?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And days o' auld lang syne.
2.
And surely ye'll be your pint-stowp!
And surely I'll be mine!
And we'll tak a cup o' kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.
3.
We twa hae run about the braes
And pu'd the gowans fine;
But we've wander'd mony a weary foot
Sin auld lang syne.
4.
We twa hae paidl'd i' the burn,
Frae mornin' sun till dine;
But seas between us braid hae roar'd
Sin auld lang syne.
5.
And there's a hand, my trusty fiere!
And gie's a hand o' thine!
And we'll tak a right guid willy waught,
For auld lang syne.

Arend Victorie
 ------------------------------

*Van:* Lowlands Languages & Cultures [mailto:
LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] *Namens *Lowlands-L List
*Verzonden:* dinsdag 30 december 2008 17:08
*Aan:* LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
*Onderwerp:* LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Dear Lowlanders,

New Year's Eve is almost upon us and some of you might like to share how
they used to celebrate it in the cultural Lowlands environment of their
youth and how that differs from the way they celebrate it these days, if at
all.

In Low-Saxon-speaking Northern Germany traditions vary from location to
location. The two predominant names for New Year's Eve (aside from German *
Sylvester*) are *Oljahrsavend* (*Oldjaarsavend* "Old Year's Eve") and *
Fastelavend*. The latter of these names seems to point at some confusion
that occurred with the coming of the Reformation and the abandonment of
Carnival (*Fastnacht* "fasting night"). Some of the customs seem to have
been transferred from Carnival to New Year's Eve, probably in conjunction
with pre-Christian Winter Solstice customs. Especially the making of noise
comes to mind, as does going from house to house in disguise and singing for
tokens of appreciation from the inhabitants. This, of course, is also
related to Halloween customs of Britain and its overseas offshoots. We still
followed this custom when I was a child, and even then it was a far cry from
what used to be done in earlier days when the *Rummelpott* (known on the
Netherlands side as *foekepot*, *rommelpot*, *foekerommelpot*) used to be
played (a friction drum known in Dutch as *rommelpot*, in Danish as *
rummelpot*, in Limburgish as *foekepot*, in German as *Brummtopf*, in
Italian as* caccavella*, in Spanish as* zambomba*, in Portuguese as *
sarronca*, in Romanian as *buhai*, in Ukrainian as *бугай*), *köcsögduda*,
and in Basque as *eltzagor*, all being associated with end-of-the-year
traditions and/or Martinmas).


Here is a ditty in Low Saxon of Achterhoek on the Netherlands side of the
border:

*Foekepotterij, foekepotterij,
geef mien 'n cent, dan gao ik weer veurbij.
ik heb geen geld um brood te kopen,
deurum mot ik met de foekepotte lopen.
Foekepotterij, foekepotterij,
geef mien 'n cent, dan gao ik weer veurbij.*

And one from Northern Germany:

*Fruken, maak de Dœr op!
De Rummelpott will rin.
Daar kümmt een Schipp ut Holland,
de hett keen goden Wind.
Schipper, wullt du wieken,
Bootsmann, wullt du strieken.
Sett de Segel op de Topp,
und giff mi wat in´n Rummelpott!*

And for us here at Lowlands-L New Year's Eve comes with a bonus in that it
is the birthday of our own Sandy Fleming (sandy at scotstext.org) and Roger
Thijs (roger.thijs at euro-support.be), each of them "Mr. Resources" in his own
right.

Happy birthday, Sandy and Roger!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 22:15:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:15:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.141540.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Dear Lowlanders,

I just read through our Arend's posting again just now, and his mention of *
euliebollen* (German-type spelling *Öliebollen*) his Low Saxon equivalent of
Dutch *oliebollen* ("oil balls"), in Belgium *smoutebollen* ("lard balls").
Essentially, these are deep-fried dough balls, often containing sultanas,
citrus zest or apple pieces, served sprinkled with powdered sugar. These are
popular fare around New Year's and also at fun fairs (carnivals). These are
often referred to as "Dutch doughnuts" (although they have no holes).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliebollen

We seem to be dealing with a cultural continuum here.

In much of Northern Germany the equivalent, eaten on the same occasions, is
the *Berliner*. The difference is that they tend to be fluffier, that they
do not usually contain flavoring other than vanilla, that they tend to be
injected with fruit jelly or applesauce, and that they can be served
sprinkled with powdered sugar or are glazed. In the past they would be
yeast-risen, lately mostly made with baking powder and/or baking soda. Also,
in some traditions they used to be fried in lard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berliner_(pastry)

These are also eaten in Denmark and are called *berliner* there as well.

Oliebollen seem to me like a cross between them and the Louisiana French *
baigner*. Berliners are the closest relatives of the American jelly
doughnut, I believe, are more closely related to the Polish *pączki* (sg. *
pączek*), the Russian *pončiki* (*пончики**, sg. pončik* *пончик*), and *
pyški* (*пышки*, sg. *pyšik* *пышик*), the Ukrainian *pampušky* (*пампушки*,
sg. *pampušyk* *пампушик*), the Lithuanian *spurgos*, and the Ashkenazi
Jewish Hanukkah treat called *sufganiyot* (סופגניות, sg. *sufganiyah*
סופגנייה) in Hebrew, *pontshkes* (פאָנטשקעס, sg. *pontshke* פאָנטשקע) in
Yiddish.

In our North German New Year's Eve tradition, one of the *Berliners* in a
batch might be filled with mustard instead of jelly or applesauce, and
everyone hopes not to be the unlucky one that gets it, for it may be a bad
omen for the coming year.

Traditionally, there are also games that deal with reading fortunes. One of
the favorites is *Bliegeten* (German *Bleigießen* "pouring of lead") in
which liquid lead is poured from a spoon into cold water. The pourer's
fortune is supposed to be symbolized by the solidified shape. Less dangerous
alternatives are tin pouring and wax pouring.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleigie%C3%9Fen

Happy Holiday!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 01:24:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:24:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.172423.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

The Slovaks with whom I am friendly have similar, about 2" across, covered
in cocnut or vanilla powder. They make them for any special occasion, though
what they are called I dont know...

Nice, but way too sweet...

Tom

Poetry on all topics...
____________________________


Writings in Rhyme
www.writingsinrhyme.com
www.lulu.com/cartyweb


----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:  "In much of Northern Germany the equivalent, eaten on the same
occasions, is the *Berliner*."

I've heard that when JFK said in his speech at the Berlin Wall, "Ich bin ein
Berliner," he had inadvertently call himself a jelly doughnut.  I've also
heard that he should have said, "Ich bin Berliner."  I've seen the video
countless times, but is that story true?

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Ron, you are now on my bad side. You forgot the "Appelflappen" (apple
beignets). These wonders of culinary delight,- cinnamon, calvados and lemon
juice soaked apple slices, which are dipped in a yeasty beer batter and then
deep fried, drained on brown paper shopping bags and then sprinkled with
powder sugar rarely make it to the table. The waiting guest are lining up in
the kitchen and they are eaten as they come out of the pan. I do not think I
could ever get around without making them as long as my children are around.
They beat those dead-weight Oliebollen any time. Even the Berliners are
sinkers as far as I am concerned. But appelflappen make my heart sing.

Happy New Year. Jacqueline BdJ

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

 Jacqueline:



Ron, you are now on my bad side.


Oh, boy! That didn't take much, did it? What can I do to redeem myself?

Are *appelflappen* eaten on New Year's Eve, and are the the same as American
apple fritters?

Mark, I believe the Berliner story is correct, just as you wrote it. In such
constructions the article tends to be omitted. Similarly for instance *Er
ist Amerikaner* 'He is American' versus *Er ist ein Amerikaner* 'He is a
black-and-white cookie'. (The German version isn't necessarily
black-and-white, though:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerikaner_(Geb%C3%A4ck), or *Er ist
Pariser*'He is a Parisian' versus
*Er ist ein Pariser* 'He is a condom'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 15:34:55 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:34:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.31 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.073455.0800.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]

Dear Ron



Subject: LL-L Etymology



Van die os op die esel, you refer to the rommelpot in Romanian as
*buhai.*Let me just note that in our family Afrikaans we refer to an
unseemly racket
as a boehhaai. I wish I knew its history: It's not in my dictionaries.



Yrs,

Mark



P.S. Casting no aspersions, there's nothing Roumanian in my bloodline.


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Mark!

Actually, it's *van die esel op die os* ...

Romanian *buhai* also means 'ox'. Perhaps the said instrument is called this
because originally the membrane was made from cow's skin.

I assume that Ukrainian *бугай* (*buhaj*) is a Romanian loan.

Wishing all a "good slide" (*guten Rutsch*) into the new year, starting just
about now among our friends in Oceania.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 15:44:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:44:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2008.12.31 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.074423.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (05) [E]

Yes Ron, Appelflappen are eaten on New Years Eve ( We say Oudjaarsavond too)
as are Oliebollen. What they sell here in the stores as applefritters has
nothing to do with apple beignets. Apple fritters are more closely related
to oliebollen. They are made of solid dough rather than from batter. When
you eat appelflappen you eat mostly fruit, covered by a thin layer of
browned batter. To show you that you are forgiven for your "faux pas" I will
add the old family recipe. It is lush. Happy New Year. Jacqueline

*Apple beignets (Appelflappen*)

Ingredients: for 6-8 people. The recipe may be halved for a smaller family.

*Batter:*

2 1/2 cup all purpose flour

1/2 tsp salt

1 cake ( 0.6 oz) compressed yeast

3 tbs concentrated apple juice

1 cup flat  beer

2 tbs vegetable oil

2 egg whites stiffly beaten

 *Apple marinade:*

6 large apples, cored, peeled and sliced horizontally to in 3/8 inch slices

( I prefer Jonathans or Jonagolds, but Granny Smith will also do )

6 tbs sugar

1 1/2 tsp ground cinnamon

1/2 cup lemon juice

1/4 cup concentrated apple juice

1tbs brandy or Calvados

Oil for deep frying

Brown paper for draining the fried beignets
Powdered sugar

1. In a large bowl make a batter of the first 6 ingredients, cover the bowl
with a towel and put away in a warm place for the batter to rise. This will
take about 4 hrs. If the batter is too thick you may thin it with some more
of the beer. Then you add the stiffly beaten egg whites.

2. Marinate the apple slices in a plastic bag in the juices, sugar, cinnamon
and brandy until the batter has risen. Then drain the apples, use the syrup
for another dessert.

3. Heat enough oil to 380˚ F for frying ( about 2 1/2 inch in a heavy  pot).
Do not let the temperature drop during the frying process.

4. Dip the drained apple slices into the batter and then drop them one or
two at a time  in the hot oil with the help of a long fork or  he handle of
a wooden spoon.  Fry the beignets for 2 min. then turn them over if
necessary and fry till crisp and golden. Drain the beignets in a colander
and then on brown paper. Serve with powdered sugar

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Dear Arend, Ron & Co.



Subject: LL-L Cuisine



Arend, you refer to *euliebollen:*



Ron, to the same ...(German-type spelling *Öliebollen*) his Low Saxon
equivalent of Dutch *oliebollen* ("oil balls"), in Belgium
*smoutebollen*("lard balls"). Essentially, these are deep-fried dough
balls, often
containing sultanas, citrus zest or apple pieces, served sprinkled with
powdered sugar. These are popular fare around New Year's and also at fun
fairs (carnivals). These are often referred to as "Dutch doughnuts"
(although they have no holes).



In South Africa we call them vetkoek. It is a handy way to quickly prepare
dough, & therefore has a history in the old Commando. They are treated as
bread more than as cake, & my favourite filling (you slice them & fill thim
at table) is with savoury mince or bobotie. I love them, but people of more
delicate constitution claim to find them indigestible, & vidé Skikkerling
(Commando Courageous) they have also been known as 'maagbomme' &
'stormjaers' (stomach-bombs & assault troops).



Yrs,

Mark

----------

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Beste én olle Laiglanders,

In verband met de Berliners.

Wij gebruiken de Franse termen:

oliebollen met vanillepudding: boule de l' Yser.

oliebollen met confituur (jam): boule de Berlin.



Boule de l' Yser verwijst naar de oorlog: de vele kanonballen verschoten bij
het slagveld van het Ijzerfront in 1014-1918. L' Yser is inderdaad het Frans
voor de rivier die door Frans-Vlaanderen en West-Vlaanderen stroomt: de
Ijzer die bij Nieuwpoort in de Noordzee loopt!



Toetnoasteki én de béste wênsjhn voe 't niewejoar én vele "wrede" (pardon
"vrede") in de wêreld!

Beste wênsjhn voer OLLE mênsjhn én gluk én zeegn up oal junder weegn!

Roland Desnerck

Oostende, Stad aan Zee.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 15:49:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:49:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.31 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.074924.0800.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Ron/ Reinhard wrote

Traditionally, there are also games that deal with reading fortunes. One of
the favorites is *Bliegeten* (German *Bleigießen* "pouring of lead") in
which liquid lead is poured from a spoon into cold water. The pourer's
fortune is supposed to be symbolized by the solidified shape. Less dangerous
alternatives are tin pouring and wax pouring.

This is also a well known custom here - but if I'm not mistaken , at
hallowe'en rather than New Year. Walter Scott refers to this custom in his
story of Aunt Margaret's Mirror (is that the right name?) where another
tradition is mentioned, that of looking into a mirror at midnight to see
your true love's reflection behind you.

Easier by far is to peel an apple keeping the peel unbroken for as long as
possible, prefereably the whole apple! and then tossing it over your
shoulder. The  letter formed by the peel on the ground gives you the initial
of the name of your true love.

(Sounds to me like a clever wheeze to get apples peeled by your family !)

Happy New Year to All

from a freezing but dry Worcestershire

Heather

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]

In England, and I believe Scotland, New Year was traditionally the 25th of
March; we in fact still preserve this in our tax year, which starts on April
11.  That's because, when England switched to the Gregorian callendar, we
lost 17 callendar days.  People refused to cough up on New Year's Day, so
payment was deferred for the 17 days.



The 25th March date is incidentally the answer to a historical conundrum:
how, on 20th March 1485, could a man describe the outcome of the Battle of
Bosworth (22nd August 1485), without recourse to supernatural powers etc?



Scotland had already changed callendars before Union, as Scotland was
Catholic at the time; Protestant England refused as it was thought to be a
Papist AntiChrist plot to make people celebrate Easter on the wrong day,
thus damning their souls.

Much earlier, in late Anglo-Saxon times, New Year and Christmas were
officially the same day.  Tradition has it that William of Normandy moved it
so that when he had himself crowned as King of England on 25th December
1066, the celebrations wouldn't clash!



Paul
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 15:51:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:51:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2008.12.31 (04) [A]
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.075112.0800.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2008.12.28 (01) [E]

Beste Roger:



Onderwerp: LL-L Travels



Folteraar! Wat besiel jou om so lekker oor ons inheemse kossies kletter? Ek
kry sommer lus ek skiet Kaapland toe en nooi my uit op jou!



So terloops, kom jy Pretoria toe?



Die Uwe,

Matk

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 00:49:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:49:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Presentations" 2008.11.30 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.NOV.2008.164922.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Presentations

Dear Lowlanders,

Our *Arend Victorie* has done it again.

You may remember that he shared with us his ballad about "Cissy the Fog
Witch" whose spirit still haunts Arend's neck of the woods. (I added my
singable English version to it.)

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie.php
English: http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie-en.php

(with a link to a video performance)

Now Arend had a Cillie (Cissy) sighting and a photo to prove it!

I have added a link to his report to the pages mentioned above. Here are the
direct URLs:

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie_apparation.php
English: http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie_apparation-en.php

Arend recommends the story for warming your mid-winter nights.

And talking about our Gallery (http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/), I am happy
to report that it has been growing. At the moment I can't even keep up with
the material to be posted there (but that does not mean that you should stop
submitting your works).

Because of the literary quality of their articles in our Travel presentation

(http://lowlands-l.net/travels/) I posted the works of *Andrys Onsman* and *Tom
Mc Rae* in the Gallery as well. I invite you to read them again in this
light:

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/onsman.php
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae.php

Consequently, Tom submitted other works of his and more are to follow. Some
of them can be classified as essays or articles, and they are written in
English. Others are tales, actually well-known tales retold and recast in
Edinburgh Scots (which most of you will read fairly easily). I'm sure you'll
get a special kick out of those. (I sure did.) More of this is in the
offing. So please keep watching Tom's and other folks' Gallery spaces.

There seems to be a lot of talent among us. Who knows how many lights are
still being hidden under bushels?

If you wish to have your own Gallery space or to add works to yours, please
submit them to me at my private address.

Thanks and regards!

Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 06:05:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:05:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Presentations" 2008.11.30 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.NOV.2008.220522.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

===========================================
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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Presentations" 2008.11.30 (05) [E]

On 01/12/2008, at 10:49 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>wrote:


Subject: Presentations

Dear Lowlanders,

Our *Arend Victorie* has done it again.

You may remember that he shared with us his ballad about "Cissy the Fog
Witch" whose spirit still haunts Arend's neck of the woods. (I added my
singable English version to it.)

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie.php
English: http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_cillie-en.php

(with a link to a video performance)

Now Arend had a Cillie (Cissy) sighting and a photo to prove it!



Fascinating photograph sorrowful story. Many Thanks.

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 16:12:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:12:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2008.12.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.081253.0800.>

===========================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to December 2008 at Lowlands-L!

And welcome to you who joined or rejoined us since the beginning of
November! Please find their places of residence listed at the end of this.

Please don't forget about our activities:

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
   - Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)
   - Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)
   - History (lowlands-l.net/history/ <http://lowlands-l.net/travels/>)
   - Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Beyond the Pale
(lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)


Please ask if you need to know what you can do and how to do it. Please also
remember that help is available.

I admit that I am disappointed especially with the scarce response to my
call to add members' resources to the latest project (
http://lowlands-l.net/resources/). After all, I know that quite a few of you
have websites and other publications, including those that are directly
related to our focus.

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:

   - Do not mix topics.
   - Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you
   respond. It is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a
   subject line.
   - When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
   portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
   response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
   then.


Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php


Another request:

Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.

*
Membership:*

As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
   your view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.
   2. You must always give us your name, given name and family name.
   3. If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give
   us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
   something in case we get error messages from that server.
   4. You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
   simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.
   5. Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making
   up your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make
   sure "Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.
   6. DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.
   7. Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their
   names with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting
   is not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
   even if you do not put them right next to each other.


Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

   1. Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things
   up, please.
   2. Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
   responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
   apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.
   3. Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
   response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
   not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
   version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
   relevant to your response.
   4. Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are.
   If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L"
   as the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
   authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.
   5. Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
   sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.

*
Change of Address: *
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address.

*Temporary Absence*
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

And remember:
No matter from where you are, here you are considered Lowlanders until
proved innocent!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
sassisch at yahoo.com
Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)

***

Those of you that joined us in November 2008 live in the following places:

*Denmark* (Danmark):
     Capital (Hovedstaden):
          Copenhagen (K?benhavn) [1]
*Germany* (Deutschland):
     Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen, Neddersassen):
          G?ttingen (Ch?ttingen) [1]
*Italy* (Italia):
     Province of Bari (Provincia di Bari):
          Bari [1]
*Netherlands*:
     Frysl?n (Friesland, Frieslaand):
          Eastern Stellingwerf (Eaststellingwerf, Ooststellingwerf,
          Ooststellingwarf):
               Elslo (Elsloo) [1]
*Serbia* (??????, Srbija):
     Belgrade (???????, Beograd) [1]
*South Africa*:
     Gauteng:
          Pretoria (IPitoli) [1]
*United Kingdom*:
     England:
          Derbyshire:
               Chapel-en-le-Frith [1]
*United States of America*:
     Pennsylvania:
          Pittsburgh [1]
     South Carolina:
          Columbia [1]
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 16:39:34 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:39:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.083934.0800.>

===========================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.30 (04) [E]

from heather rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

re origins and other meanings of 'rag'

How do any of you think the English epression 'local rag' meaning 'local
newspaper' might have got its name?

I was wondering whether it came from the fact that poor quality paper was
made from rags? And so this carried over to mean 'poor quality newspaper'
and then got carried over again to schools and colleges 'the college rag'
i.e. magazine  with the meaning 'amateur paper / magazine'

And might this have also been carried over to sheet music as a music rag i.e
lesser quality music?

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Happy December, everyone, and a happy Advent season to those of you that
celebrate it!

Interesting question about "rag" in this sense, Heather.

I always assumed that "rag" just emphasized the worthlessness of "worthless
newspaper", something that might as well be thrown away.

I believe that in Yiddish, too, you can refer to a worthless newspaper (and
several other things, such as a garment or a worthless document) as ?????? (
*shmate*) 'rag'. (*Iz dos rikhtik, Leybl un andere khaveyrim?*) Well, at
least *I* have been known to use the word that way in Yiddish. ;-)
*Shmate*is one of those very useful and ubiquitous Yiddish words that
has found its
way into Northeast American English parlance as a straight loan as well.

So perhaps we are dealing with a Yiddish calque (*shmate* > rag), possibly
one that started in North America. This would have been an easy fit in that
"rag" in the sense of "inferior garment" was probably in English use
already.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 16:45:17 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:45:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.084517.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2008 - Volume 01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.01 (02) [E]

Am 30.11.2008 um 23:59 schrieb Jorge Potter:

So now we know that musically "rag" means a piece of old cloth from Old
English ragge, related to rugged and Old Norse r?gg = tuft.


Thank you very much, dear Jorge,

for your final clarification of the semiotic background of the modern term
"ragtime" (music) and the deplorable racist connotation. That's a necessary
completion of the harmless things they gave in the radio feature I'd
listened to.

My interest in the term "rag" was mainly linguistic, semantic. But I'm not a
linguist, so my construction in "Etymology" 2008.11.25 may be erroneus and
pure "folk's etymology".

But for my simple feeling the Old Norsk "ragga?r [shaggy]" and the

piece of old cloth from Old English ragge, related to rugged and Old Norse
r?gg = tuft


seem to be nearby, in wording and meaning. And would both fit in my
speculation:

The central meaning should be that of describing the surface of things as
"shaggy", in contradiction to "even" or "plain", with pinnacles, spikes,
fractions, vertices.


But this can remain unresolved, I just hoped to enrich - with "raggen",
"raggig" some LS varieties with another - as such useful - word stem...

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 17:37:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:37:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.093712.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Rag paper is actually very high quality, not low quality.  See
http://painting.about.com/od/artglossaryr/g/defragpaper.htm .

I suspect "rag" as a disparaging term for a newspaper refers to the quality
of the writing, not the paper it's printed on.

Some American schools whose mascot is the tiger call their school newspaper
"Tiger Rag", which is also the name of a well-known ragtime song.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Heather asked:  "How do any of you think the English epression 'local rag'
meaning 'local newspaper' might have got its name?"

I used to work in a copy/printing company.  When we talked about high
quality paper, we would call it by the percent of "rag" it contained.  Rag
in this case meant cotton.  So when we printed Doctoral Dissertations we
always put them on 100% rag.  You could also find 50% rag and so on.
However, in our case it meant a higher quality of paper than the standard
copy paper.

Regards,

Mark Brooks

?

==============================END===================================

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 20:53:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:53:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (05) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.125335.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2008 - Volume 05
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (03) [E]

Among musicians, apparently "to rag" a piece of music, or make it "ragged",
is to syncopate a standard melody (i.e., move it off the beat).  So
"ragtime" was so called because it has a ragged melody.

http://cnx.org/content/m10878/latest/

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: ppvaneeden at ziggo.nl
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.30 (01) [E]

Good day!

More about this important giant (perhaps a God) Surtr. Our Dutch word z*wart
* (black) is related to Surtr. It is also interesting to note that the words
*sword* and *swear* can both be linked to the PIE **swer-.* Perhaps they are
also related to Surtr. In ancient times the *sword* played a very important
role in the oath swearing ceremonies.

Sword:

O.E. sweord, from P.Gmc. *swerdan (cf. O.S., O.Fris. swerd, O.N. sver?,
Swed. sv?rd, M.Du. swaert, Du. zwaard, O.H.G. swert, Ger. Schwert), related
to O.H.G. sweran "to hurt," from *swertha-, lit. "the cutting weapon," from
PIE base *swer- "to cut."

Swear:

O.E. swerian "take an oath" from P.Gmc. *swarjanan, from root *swar- (cf.
O.S. swerian, O.N. sverja, Dan. sverge, O.Fris. swera, M.Du. swaren, O.H.G.
swerien, Ger. schw?ren, Goth. swaren "to swear"), from PIE base *swer- "to
speak, say" (cf. O.C.S. svara "quarrel").

But Saterday (from S?ternes or S?tern or Saturn) is then also related to
Surtr!

Surtr is a very old giant (perhaps a God). He exited before the creation of
the other giants and Gods. Surtr is an important figure during the Ragnarok.
He will destroy the earth with fire. All the giants will be destroyed by the
Gods during the Ragnarok except for this giant Surtr.

Regards,

Petrus van Eeden

*Van:* ppvaneeden at ziggo.nl [mailto:ppvaneeden at ziggo.nl]
*Verzonden:* 30 November 2008 05:56 PM
*Aan:* 'lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM'; 'LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG'
*Onderwerp:* RE: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.30 (01) [E]

Goeie dag,

Heel interessant oor die woord *Reus*! In my Etymologisch woordeboek van het
Nederlands staan dat die woord *reus* moontlik verwant is aan die Latynse *
verr?ca* (hoogte) en Sanskrit *v?rsman* (hoogte) en Indo-europees
**uer-*(verhoogde plek).

Groete,

Petrus van Eeden

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]

from Heather Rendall

re rag paper

Whoops! My mistake and apologies to all those connected with the paper
trade. I suppose I was thinking about the paper that was used in old 50s
comics and other cheap books / magazines in which you could almost see
pressed threads.

What would this have been made out of?

Sorry not really a Forum problem! But I'm interested.

Heather

----------

From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Moi Heather en Reinhard.

Betreft "Rag/Raggen"

Wij hebben in het Nederlands Bargoens het woord "Ragschore" = Ondeugelijke
waar (markttaal) Rag is wellicht <Hebr. *reiag, roeach>* wind, geur,  of in
een ongunstige betekenis: *stank.*

Mogelijk echter ook < het germ. Woord voor los weefsel dat in Algemeen
Beschaafd Nederlands *spinrag, ragebol*, ect. voorkomt.

Arend Victorie
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  1 22:31:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:31:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (06) [E/Yiddish]
Message-ID: <MON.1.DEC.2008.143141.0800.>

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From: RBlaustein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

As long as we're discussing the etymology and various meaning of "rag,"
"ragged," and so forth, let me toss this into the mix:*  *

In northwest Connecticut,  "raggie" or "raggy" is a derogatory, contemptuous
term applied to poorly dressed,
lower-class people.

In the neighborhood of  the town of Salisbury in the mountainous
northwestern corner of Litchfield County, Connecticut, the term "raggie" is
specifically applied to lower class inhabitants of Mount Riga, locally
pronounced "Raggy." Is this a folk etymology, do you think?

However,  the term "raggie" is also applied to lower class natives of the
towns of
Winsted, Norfolk and Torrington, all located in Litchfield County.
Apparently, residents of the
various towns apply it to natives of the other towns.

see http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=raggie&defid=2030984.

There is even a FaceBook group of Raggies consisting of present and former
residents of Northwestern Connecticut, who consider the term an in-joke.

However, I have the impression that the term "raggy" is also used in a
derogatory sense in the UK but thus far have not been able to track this
down on the internet.

Have any readers of this list encountered "raggy" or "raggie" used in this
sense outside of northwestern Connecticut? I'd be interested to know if you
have.

All best wishes,

Richard Blaustein

----------

From: Lee Goldberg <leybl_goldberg at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

*Yo, ir zayt gerekht, Ron.  **Dos iz take rikhtik.*



"Shmate" in Yiddish is often used figuratively to mean "a piece of crap".
As applied to a woman (for instance, the Russian Empress Alexandra in
a celebrated ditty of the time), it can mean a slut or a whore.



And in a song from World War II, a little orphan boy sings



*Kh'hob gehat a tatele,*

*Hot er mikh gehit.*

*Itst bin ikh a shmatele*

*Vayl ikh bin a yid.*

(I once had a Daddy/Who took care of me/Now I'm just a piece of dirt/Because
I am a Jew)


--- On *Mon, 12/1/08, Reinhard/Ron *wrote:

I believe that in Yiddish, too, you can refer to a worthless newspaper (and
several other things, such as a garment or a worthless document) as ?????? (
*shmate*) 'rag'. (*Iz dos rikhtik, Leybl un andere khaveyrim?*) Well, at
least *I* have been known to use the word that way in Yiddish. ;-)
*Shmate*is one of those very useful and ubiquitous Yiddish words that
has found its
way into Northeast American English parlance as a straight loan as well.

So perhaps we are dealing with a Yiddish calque (*shmate* > rag), possibly
one that started in North America. This would have been an easy fit in that
"rag" in the sense of "inferior garment" was probably in English use
already.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  2 15:15:03 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 07:15:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.02 (01) [E]
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From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]

Surely "rag time" refers to "non-standard timing" - ie, the timing that
wasn't
standard 4/4, and which probably - in the actual playing of the
African-American musicians of the time, probably came to something like
7/12,
5/8, 2/5, or something of that sort.

Or "shaggy" timing, to ears that held 4/4 to be perfection itself.

Just my 0.02c - don't spend it all at once - we do have a recession on!

Wesley Parish

On Tuesday 02 December 2008 06:37, Lowlands-L List wrote:
<snip>

>
> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]
>
> Rag paper is actually very high quality, not low quality.  See
> http://painting.about.com/od/artglossaryr/g/defragpaper.htm .
>
> I suspect "rag" as a disparaging term for a newspaper refers to the
quality
> of the writing, not the paper it's printed on.
>
> Some American schools whose mascot is the tiger call their school
newspaper
> "Tiger Rag", which is also the name of a well-known ragtime song.
>
> Kevin Caldwell
>
> ----------
>
> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]
>
> Heather asked:  "How do any of you think the English epression 'local rag'
> meaning 'local newspaper' might have got its name?"
>
> I used to work in a copy/printing company.  When we talked about high
> quality paper, we would call it by the percent of "rag" it contained.  Rag
> in this case meant cotton.  So when we printed Doctoral Dissertations we
> always put them on 100% rag.  You could also find 50% rag and so on.
> However, in our case it meant a higher quality of paper than the standard
> copy paper.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Brooks


--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.


----------

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (05) [A/D/E]

Rags, most probably.  It's only relatively recently that wood fibre has been
used almost exclusively as the source of cellulose fibre - before that -
well, Napolean's invasion of Egypt used up a whole lot of mummy windings for
paper in a spectacular case of cultural vandalism.

And no, I don't see it as unrelated to the forum - I did some work for the
local University Library in 2000-01, computer-cataloging a donation of
several hundred musical scores donated by a local prominent musician's widow
to the library.  The paper from the 1880-era scores was quite different from
the 1900-era scores, etc.

Most of the 1880-era and 1900-era scores were from major German music
publishers, several being from recognizable Lowlands cities.

Wesley Parish

On Tuesday 02 December 2008 09:53, Lowlands-L List wrote:
<snip> ----------

>
> From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]
>
> from Heather Rendall
>
> re rag paper
>
> Whoops! My mistake and apologies to all those connected with the paper
> trade. I suppose I was thinking about the paper that was used in old 50s
> comics and other cheap books / magazines in which you could almost see
> pressed threads.
>
> What would this have been made out of?
>
> Sorry not really a Forum problem! But I'm interested.
>
> Heather
>
> ----------

<snip>
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Ron: 'rag' for worthless newspaper might come from Yiddish, but needn't have
started in the USA perse. Also in other lowland languages we find this use,
at least in Dutch where we use 'vod' ('rag', also piece of cloth that you
use for cleaning) for worthless newspapers, or any worthless printed/written
material as a whole, so that a book or a pupil's assignment might
be referred to as 'vod', in the latter case usually by the teacher;) . Cfr.
'vodje papier'
Greetings, Diederik

----------

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (02) [E]

Dear Heather,



No, it's the other way around. Paper made from rags is better than that made
from woodpulp.



I was born and brought up by the paper mills of the Black River Valley in
New York State. Later I lived in the Fox Valley of Wisconsin with
Kimberley-Clark, Marathon, Institue of Paper Chemistry, etc.



Jorge Potter

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  2 16:43:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 08:43:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.02 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.2.DEC.2008.084359.0800.>

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.02 (01) [E]

No, it just means that the rhythm is syncopated (emphasizing the up beat).
Ragtime music could be written in any standard time signature, but usually
was 2/4 (march time).

Kevin Caldwell

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.01 (04) [E]

Surely "rag time" refers to "non-standard timing" - ie, the timing that
wasn't
standard 4/4, and which probably - in the actual playing of the
African-American musicians of the time, probably came to something like
7/12,
5/8, 2/5, or something of that sort.

Or "shaggy" timing, to ears that held 4/4 to be perfection itself.

Just my 0.02c - don't spend it all at once - we do have a recession on!

Wesley Parish

?

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:16:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.02 (03) [E]
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Without comment a very explosive matter, also for Low Saxon in Germany:



http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,594056,00.html



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  3 04:27:39 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:27:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.02 (04) [E]
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.02 (03) [E]

Ron/Reinhard: can you decide whether or not to pass this information on

re a new subject???

We have just had this address posted on our UK Language forum.

 http://sprachatlas.bayerische-landesbibliothek-online.de/

Is it already too well known to send to the forum? Or is it a new Goodie? Or
possibly a never ending source of Yes it is /No it isn't debates?

bw from a freezing UK

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks, Heather.

The information is marginally relevant. (Few topics are totally irrelevant
to our focus.)

The language varieties you see in the northern part of Bavaria are the High
Frankish (and some Central Frankish) ones that are on a continuum with the
Central Frankish ones of the Rhenish area to the northwest, and these are
further connected with the Low Frankish ones farther west-northwest, to
which Dutch belongs. Frankish is a band of varieties that spreads from
Holland to Lower Bavaria and into parts of Saxony and Thuringia on
northwest-to-southeast angle. The High Frankish varieties have all the
features of High German, such as diphthongization (e.g. uu > au, ii > ai),
affricatization (e.g. t > ts > ss, p > pf > ff, k (> kx) > x) and devocing
(e.g. d > t).

Regards from currently damp and relatively mild Western Washington,
Reinhard/Ron

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Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:08:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.03 (01) [LS]
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.02 (03) [E]

Danke Jonny foer den link, is ok interessant dat Oezdemir Cem de fraagt
stellt wo an sik dat verhoellt met de regionalen un minderheten-spraaken in
Duetschland. Harrn se man een beten moot in Kiel, Hamborg, Bremen, Hannover,
Potsdam und Schwerin denn kunnen se ja ut protest fastleggen dat in duesse
laender Nedersaksisch, Friisk (where applicable), Soenderjysk (where
applicable) und Sorbsch (where applicable) in de laender-constitutionen as
voernemste spraken schreven ward schull sowat in verfassung vun de
Bundsrepublik Duetschland rinkomen....awer da kanns wul lang op toewen!

Groeten, Helge!

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  4 17:21:02 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:21:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.04 (01) [LS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.DEC.2008.092102.0800.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.03 (01) [LS]

....awer door k??nt wi wul lang op toewen!

Mike Wintzer
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  4 18:16:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:16:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.04 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.4.DEC.2008.101616.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Media"

Dear Lowlanners and Ron,



though I'm not sure about the LL-L relevance of this topic I found it to be
an important step in internet developement and thus to inform all of you. I
think we'll get very interesting new sources, in special for historical
matters



Have a look into this site, if you're able to deal with a minimum level of
German.



http://www.netzeitung.de/internet/1225917.html



I wish you a nice evening from a very cold and 'un-gemuetlich' Northern
Germany!



Jonny Meibohm


----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks, Jonny.

Lowlanders, I don't advocate a lengthy off-track discussion here. But let me
just briefly mention that the German article Jonny refers to and also
articles linked to it deal with the growing importance of the Wikipedia as
well as freedom of speech and freedom of access to information in general.

Germany's Federal Archives now shares ca. 100,000 digitized pictures with
the Wikipedia, and the Wikipedia will in turn help to identify and date as
many as possible.

Related and linked articles report that several people, including some
German politicians and organizations, perceive the Wikipedia as a threat in
that they disagree with certain descriptions and characterizations in it. As
is typical in such instances, they point to what they think is uncontrolled
access and dissemination of information by an amorphous group of people.
Off-center politicians seem to insinuate that these people are a rag-tag
band of biased radicals and are thus dangerous. This is felt especially by
those off-center politicians that feel that articles about them were
distortions, at least before they leaned on the Wiki folks by insisting on
numerous revisions. And, yes, some of these politicians call for banning the
Wikipedia. In other words, we are dealing with the electronic age's version
of book burning.

What is particularly interesting to me is that in this context there is only
talk about the German edition of Wikipedia and pretty much no mention of the
fact that this is a global effort using large numbers of languages. This
points toward the fact that, due to being international and not centralized,
the Wikipedia effort can not be controlled or indeed stopped by anyone other
than the Wikipedia staff itself, and this is apparently very frustrating to
some. This may be a sign of the time, a time that we are likely to look back
to as one of profound change, perhaps even a time of unprecedented
emancipation and assertion due to the establishment of the Internet and due
to non-governmental and non-commercial international efforts to create
global access to resources and information. Calls for and implementation of
governmental bans (blocking access) indicate just how threatening this is in
the eyes of some. Personally, I believe that their efforts will be unable to
halt these international volunteer efforts in the long run. ("Power to the
people"?)

I suppose the most important thing is that the Wikipedia effort stay on
track, aim for high standards of truth, fairness and independence, and
remain true to the initial concept.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  5 19:15:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:15:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.05 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.111507.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Happy St. Nicolas Day to all of you who celebrate it!

When I grew up in Northern Germany we children had to polish our (best)
shoes on the evening of December 5, then put one shoe (with growing
prosperity a pair of shoes) on a window sill and say a little Nicolas poem
in hope of the good man's nocturnal visit. If we were good all year, we
would find our shoes filled with goodies the next morning, mostly seasonal
treats, perhaps a small toy or two as well. There would be pieces of coal
for those that had been naughty, but I only knew that from hearsay, of
course.

Being on a cultural and linguistic continuum with the Netherlands and
Flanders and at the same time dominated by Germany we shared the St. Nicolas
tradition of the Lowlands and also shared the Father Christmas (and *
Christkind*) tradition of the German-speaking world. In other words, we had
double joy and *two* men visiting us at different times. We did not confuse
them, unlike our American brethren who ended up mixing the two traditions.

I you click on the link given by our Arend below you will be able to view a
nice selection of his St. Nicolas (*Sinterklaas*) photos.

Enjoy the season!

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Arend <arden1952 at gmail.com>
Subject: Uitnodiging voor het bekijken van het Picasa-webalbum van Arend:
sint 2008

Moi L?eglaanders

Op onderstaond adres daor stiet de ienege nog echte sunterklaos.

Hij is op de foto's zien verjaordag an 't vieren op een schoele in 't
Oogeveine.
En ik mut zeggen da'k as goedheiligman der een plezierige m?rgen an ehad
hebbe.
Mar de kiender die hadden der 't mieste plezier an.

*sint 2008*

Juliana van Stolbergschool -

5 dec. 2008
van *Arend*

Sint tijdens zijn verjaardag op school


 Album weergeven<http://picasaweb.google.nl/lh/sredir?uname=arden1952&target=ALBUM&id=5276350884530499521&authkey=xjMOSzbhxoo&feat=email>
Diavoorstelling
afspelen<http://picasaweb.google.nl/lh/sredir?uname=arden1952&target=ALBUM&id=5276350884530499521&authkey=xjMOSzbhxoo&feat=email&mode=SLIDESHOW>
 Als u problemen ondervindt bij het weergeven van dit e-mailbericht,
kopieert en plakt u het volgende in uw browser:
http://picasaweb.google.nl/lh/sredir?uname=arden1952&target=ALBUM&id=5276350884530499521&authkey=xjMOSzbhxoo&feat=email
Als u uw foto's wilt delen of een bericht wilt ontvangen wanneer uw vrienden
foto's delen, meldt u zich aan voor uw eigen gratis account voor
Picasa-webalbums <http://picasaweb.google.nl/>.
 <http://picasaweb.google.nl/>
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  5 19:16:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.05 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.111653.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: "ds" <dstokely at infionline.net>
Subject: Etymology

I've just come across, a day or two late, the postings on"rag", mentioning
music with a ragtime beat.  For several years now I've been involved
with (ahem) the world's finest ragtime piano player (concert here the end of
January).  He's gone into history over the subject and said that back a
hundred and some years ago that kind of music was critically referred to as
"ragged time".  The mention by Kevin Caldwell of the syncopated beat sounds
about right, and I love the music.



David Stokely

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  5 19:18:32 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:18:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.05 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.111832.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: orthography

Dear Lowlanders,

A general linguistics question: is there a term for the study of writing
systems?

Thanks,

Kevin Caldwell

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  5 20:32:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:32:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.123226.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.05 (03) [E]

> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell
> <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: orthography
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> A general linguistics question: is there a term for the
> study of writing
> systems?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin Caldwell

Hi,

Sure.
In 1974 I made the term 'graphemics'.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec  6 00:26:01 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:26:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Music" 2008.12.05 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.DEC.2008.162601.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:

Dear Lowlanders,

As the weekend is upon us and we are getting farther into the Northern
Hemisphere winter holiday season, please allow me to share with you one of
my favorite pieces of music, a piece that to me is one of the closest to
being "divine": *Ombra mai f?*.

It is the first aria in the opera *Serse* (*Xerxes*) by the baroque composer
Handel (H?ndel). The opera was a flop, playing only five times in London.
But this aria endures as one of the most beloved and performed pieces of
baroque music. For some reason, perhaps because it is a rarity and
"typically renaissance and baroque," I particularly like it sung by
countertenors.

Countertenors are adult males that sings in contralto, mezzo-soprano or even
soprano ranges, thus in ranges usually sung in by women. True countertenors
are rare and are highly sought after, even these days. I particularly enjoy
*Ombra mai f?* as performed by the following three countertenors:



   - *Andreas Scholl* (Germany) who has a more academic approach to the art
   - *Yoshikazu Mera* (????, Japan) being very popular in Japan, having
   overcome the handicap of congenital *osteogenesis imperfecta* (brittle
   bone disease), a singer of traditional and popular Japanese music as well
   as of Western Classical music
   - *David Daniels* (USA) who combines Andreas Scholl's academic approach
   with what to me seems a remarkably clear and close-to-pure countertenor
   voice, like Mera rarely resorting to *falsetto* range



And how does this fit into the Lowlands scope of interest? There are two
reasons:



   - Handel was from Northern Germany, from Halle, close to the southern
   edge of the Low-Saxon-speaking area, and he later moved to England.
   - I have translated the aria in a singable form from Italian into
   18th-century English, Low Saxon and German, and I have posted this in my
   part of the Lowlands-L gallery along with video clips of the three singers'
   performances:
   lowlands-l.net/gallery/hahn_ombra.php
   (Please click on the pictures to access the video clips.)



Even though the words of the aria should stand by themselves, let me add for
academic interest that in the opera it is King Xerxes' love song to a
sycamore tree. Here is the preceding recitative with my English and German
translations (which I have not posted). (You will hear it sung in Daniels'
performance.)



*Frondi tenere e belle**
del mio platano amato
per voi rispende il fato;
tuoni, lampi, e procelle
non v'oltraggino mai la cara pace
ne giunga a profanarvi, austro rapace!*

**

Fronds so tender and so handsome
Of my sycamore tree beloved,
For you shineth fate and fortune;
Thunder, lightning, even tempests?
Let them ne'ermore upset the peace so precious
Nor rapacious southern winds come here to blaspheme you!

Zarte, wundersch?ne Wedel

meiner Platane, die ich liebe,

euer Schicksal ist erleuchtet;

Donner, Blitze, wilde St?rme ?

lass' sie niemals den geliebten Frieden st?ren
noch den gierigen S?dwind kommen euch zu schm?hen!


I hope that several of you will enjoy the music, words and performances of
the song. As I said earlier, to me they are close to divine. Should anyone
ever look for music to play in my memory, look no further!

Yours,
Reinhard/Ron**
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  7 03:28:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 19:28:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.DEC.2008.192812.0800.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

Subject: Old Norwegian "os" meaning hill, mountain or the like?



Hey Lowlanders,



already in january of this year 2008 we had here a little dispute about my
proposal to denominate the LS language variety of my home region
"Osna-Sassisk", and by that about the LS name of my old hometown and former
prince-bishop's diocese Osnabr?ck.



In the following month, together with LL-friend Olaf Bordasch (though not on
the LL-List), who runs the best informing website on Westphalian LS
http://www.plattdeutsch-niederdeutsch.net/ , I had a productive effort about
the origin of the first part "Osna" of the name Osnabr?ck (the latter part
being clear as LS "br?gge" [bridge]). We already came to the result, that
the "a"-part of Osna should mean water, river, but "Osn" remaining unclear
(there is an old hypothesis of "?sen", an twig of the Wotan god's family).



Yesterday, Olaf Bordasch informed me about an interesting finding on
http://www.onomastik.com/forum/about2926.html

where a contributer "saxo" makes the remark, that "os" in Old Norwegian
means "Berg oder Bergland" [mountain or mauntain region]. And this "saxo"
remarks justly, that this would better fit to the hills/mountains of the
Theutonian Forest. The name origin of the river running through Osnabr?ck,
today called "Hase", would then be something like "Osenaha" (with aha, ahwa
= germanic or indoeuropean for river, water "aqua"). Therefore Osnabr?ck
meaning town/settlement of/with the bridge over the river from the
mountains.



Because this finding could resolve the still unresolved question of the
origin of the "Osna"-part in the name of the old saxon settlement of
Osnabr?ck, I ask if anybody can say something about the hypothesis, that
there is an Old Norwegian / Oldnorsk or else germanic word "os/osn/osen"
meaning hill, mountain region or he like!



Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology


Dear Lowlanders,

My legal first name Reinhard tends to be seen as derived from *Reginhard* or
*Raginhard* and tends to be explained as meaning 'strong counselor'. The
second part is the ancestor of "hard" and in early times meant 'strong',
'courageous' and the like.

It is about the first part (which you find in the name *Reginwald* >
Reginald as well) that I am still wondering:

   - Old English: *regnian* to put in order, to prepare
   - Old Saxon: (**ragan* >?) *regin* fate, decision, order, decree
   - Old German: *regin* fate, decision, order, decree
   - Old Norse: *regin* gods, council
   - Gothic: *ragin* determination, council, *ragineis* prescriptor,
   counselor, *ragin?n* to rule
   - Germanic: **ragina-* council, decision
   - Indo-European: **r?k-* ~ **r?k-* ~ **re?-* to order, to arrange

I am assuming that this is related to **re?-* 'to rule' from which words
such as "reign", "regular", and Latin *regere* 'to reign', (**reg-s* >) *rex
* 'king' and *regina* 'queen'. Furthermore, **re?-* means 'straight'
(related to the idea of 'order' and 'arrange'), also contained in Latin *
regula* 'rule'. Lastly, apparently words for governed countries are derived
from it, e.g. *r?k* and *Reich* (Old English *r?ce*).

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, additions?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  7 18:52:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:52:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.DEC.2008.105221.0800.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Joachim: I cant find any word *os((e)n) meaning hill, etc in Old Norse, but
of course that doesnt mean it doesnt exist

Diederik

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Joachim: quick update, I suddenly realised I was stupid and forgot about the
modern Norewgian word ?s meaning something like hill, of which the Old Norse
ancestor has to be found under the letter a:

*?s-s *

(3), an., st. M. (a): nhd. Bergr?cken; E.: germ. *amsa-, *amsaz, st. M. (a),

Schulter, R?cken (M.); idg. *omesos, *omsos, M., Schulter, Pokorny 778; L.:
Vr

16b

Hope that helps

Diederik

----------

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Dear Joachim!

To start with, let me thank you for currently being my most reliable input
concerning westphalian platt. In my Swedish "exile" it is not an easy task
to learn Westphalian (which I never learned to speak while still living in
my home town of L?denscheid in the Sauerland). Thanks to you and various
sources on the net I may still one day dare to write a few lines.

Concerning old Norse (and modern Scandinavian) however, the Swedish exile is
definitely helpful. And yes: Old Norse "os/as" definitely means
"hill/mountain" and the term is still used in the modern scandinavian
languages. The Swedish word is "?s". The term indicates a hill or mountain
with vegetation even on the top - in contrast to "fj?ll" which is above the
tree border (i.e. a rocky or even icy top). Hence, "os" ought to be adequate
for the "Teutoburger Wald". "A/aa/?" is even today the Scandinavian word for
"river" and is a very common element of settlement names. I think we
mentioned the "os" element in some British settleement names before (in the
"danelag" area).

I am wondering though, if "os" and "a" appear in any other Low Saxon
settlement names?



Greetings



Wolfram


----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Dear Reinhard:


Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

You say:

My legal first name Reinhard tends to be seen as derived from *Reginhard* or
*Raginhard* and tends to be explained as meaning 'strong counselor'. The
second part is the ancestor of "hard" and in early times meant 'strong',
'courageous' and the like.

It is about the first part (which you find in the name *Reginwald* >
Reginald as well) that I am still wondering:

Old English:*regnian* to put in order, to prepare

Old Saxon: (**ragan* >?) *regin* fate, decision, order, decree

Old German: *regin* fate, decision, order, decree

Old Norse: *regin* gods, council

Gothic: *ragin* determination, council, *ragineis* prescriptor, counselor, *
ragin?n* to rule

Germanic: **ragina-* council, decision

Indo-European: **r?k-* ~ **r?k-* ~ **re?-* to order, to arrange...........



Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, additions?



Mark:

Please add (for general deluctation) an alternative root 'Rein':

Nederlands: *rein* clean, pure, innocent (fig).

    &

Hoogduits: *rein*

Middelnederlands: *reine* / *r?ne*

Latyns: *cernere* beslis, skei

Grieks: *krinen* beslis, sif, skei (laasgenoemde twee - algemene ouer
betekenis),

    verder verbind met *krisis*, *kritiek*, *kritikus*, *kritiseer*

(Old Boshoff en Nienaber - Afrikaanse Etimologie)



Apart from that; to go off on a limb, if (purely in fun, I insist) I may
throw discretion to the winds & *'folk etymologise', extrapolating* *from*

Afrikaans: *lafhart* coward to

               *   reinhart* pure-hearted

    I think I have you pinned down, Reinhart; heh, heh, heh.



Yrs,

Mark


----------

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

Beste Reinhard,



you wrote:



My legal first name Reinhard tends to be seen as derived from *Reginhard* or
*Raginhard* and tends to be explained as meaning 'strong counselor'. The
second part is the ancestor of "hard" and in early times meant 'strong',
'courageous' and the like.



Why not go the direct way and presume 'rein' in the same sense as it
still has today as 'pure', 'clean'?



In GRIMM I found:



*REIN**, adj. und adv.*



*I.  Form und verwandtschaft. *



*a)  das wort ist gemeingermanisch: goth. hrains, ahd. hreini GRAFF 4, 1158,
alts. hr?ni, altfries. r?ne, altn. hreinn. altbezeugt ist das adj. doch wol
auch in der ber?hmten glosse der lex salica chrenecruda GRIMM rechtsalterth.
110. myth.4 534. KERN die glossen in der lex salica 109. im ags. mangelt die
entsprechung, hier hat schon fr?h cl?ne, engl. clean, ahd. chleini, mhd.
kleine das bedeutungsgebiet von rein an sich gezogen, ein vorgang, der auch
auf deutschem boden spurweise beobachtet wird (vgl. theil 5, 1088). aus dem
skandinavischen ist schwed.-lappisch raines, purus, norweg.-lappisch rainet,
purgare entlehnt (THOMSEN einflusz der germ. sprachen auf die
finnisch-lappischen 164). dem mhd. reine, rein entspricht mnd. reine und
rein, mnl. reene, reen und reyne, reyn. das nhd. rein findet sich
gleichlautend im nnl. KRAMER nieder - hochd. wb. 1, 312a, neunord. ren. die
monophthongisierte form r?n oder r?ne ist in der norddeutschen volkssprache
allgemein verbreitet.*



Couldn't _*Reinhard*_ be 'the pure-hearted' as well?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Mark and Jonny.

What you suggest is in fact the common folk etymology of the name. But
apparently - I assume on the basis of documentation - it is incorrect.

Apparently, *regin* is at the root of various names, including *Reginwald* >
Reginald, Reinald, and *Reginhold* > Reinhold. It is also related to the
Scandinavian name Ragne, as well as Ragnar which in German is Rainer ~
Reiner, Rainier in French (from *ragin+heri*).

I just found out that my name day was last Friday.

"Pure/innocent heart" ... I wish!

Regards, and happy second Advent,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  7 21:12:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:12:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.DEC.2008.131211.0800.>

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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

Moi Reinhard,, Mark en Jonny,

Mien woordenboek van veurnamen gef:

*Regin: *Oorspr. *Raad, raadsbesluit* (der Goden) heeft in namen noch
slechts versterkende betekenis.

Dus: *sterk, zeer.* (Vergelijk enkele van de onderstaande voorbeelden.)
Rein, werd ten slotte wel opgevat als *rein, zuiver. *Daar het een  onzijdig
woord was, kwam het alleen als eerste lid in Germ. namen voor. Vergelijk
Goth. *ragin,* raad, besluit,  *ragineis.* raadgever, raadsheer. In het Ohd.
slechts in eigennamen; Osa. *regan, regin, rein, r?n,* versterkend in
*reginthiof
*aardsdief: Angels*, reg(e)n,* slechts met versterkende betekenis *
regnth?of,* aardsdief. Ono. *regin, r?gn, * de beslissenden, de goden. Bij
een Germ. Wortel*, reg*, ordenen

Goodgaon,

Arend Victorie.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot, Arend.

I hasten to add that the *-hard* (~ *-hardt* ~ *-hart*) part is often
falsely assumed to be derived from an ancestor of "heart", especially in the
case of my name (in conjunction with *Rein-* folk-etymologizes as meaning
'pure').

In actual fact *-hard* (~ *-hardt* ~ *-hart*) does belong to the "hard"
group which in early times had the additional meaning 'bold', 'audacious',
'intrepid', 'brave', 'strong'.

It occurs in numerous men's names, such as Adalhard, Bernhard, Bogohard,
Burghard, Cynhard, Eberhard, Eginhard ~ Einhard, Ekhard, Erhard, Gerhard,
Meinhard and Willhard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  7 23:42:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:42:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.DEC.2008.154216.0800.>

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From: RBlaustein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (02) [D/E]

In a message dated 12/7/08 4:19:31 PM, lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM writes:
Moi Reinhard,, Mark en Jonny,
Mien woordenboek van veurnamen gef:
*Regin:* Oorspr.* **Raad, raadsbesluit* (der Goden) heeft in namen noch
slechts versterkende betekenis.
Dus:* sterk, zeer.* (Vergelijk enkele van de onderstaande voorbeelden.)
Rein, werd ten slotte wel opgevat als* rein, zuiver.* Daar het een  onzijdig
woord was, kwam het alleen als eerste lid in Germ. namen voor. Vergelijk
Goth.* ragin,* raad, besluit,  *ragineis.* raadgever, raadsheer. In het Ohd.
slechts in eigennamen; Osa.* regan, regin, rein, r?n,* versterkend in*reginthiof
* aardsdief: Angels*, reg(e)n,* slechts met versterkende betekenis*regnth?of,
* aardsdief. Ono.* regin, r?gn,*  de beslissenden, de goden. Bij een Germ.
Wortel*, reg*, ordenen
Goodgaon,
Arend Victorie.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot, Arend.

I hasten to add that the* -hard* (~* -hardt* ~* -hart*) part is often
falsely assumed to be derived from an ancestor of "heart", especially in the
case of my name (in conjunction with* Rein-* folk-etymologizes as meaning
'pure').

In actual fact* -hard* (~* -hardt* ~* -hart*) does belong to the "hard"
group which in early times had the additional meaning 'bold', 'audacious',
'intrepid', 'brave', 'strong'.

It occurs in numerous men's names, such as Adalhard, Bernhard, Bogohard,
Burghard, Cynhard, Eberhard, Eginhard ~ Einhard, Ekhard, Erhard, Gerhard,
Meinhard and Willhard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron


Dear Lowlanders,

And let's not forget  Richard --  from ric "ruler" + heard "hard"!

All the best,

Richard Blaustein

----------

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

Reinhard, my dear,



"Pure/innocent heart" ... I wish!



I never spent any thought to 'innocent' in relation to your person, but
'pure' sometimes really could be befitted to describe some of
your individual sides of character *g*!



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm


----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

> From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.06 (01) [E]

> I am wondering though, if "os" and "a" appear in any other Low Saxon
settlement names?



There are quite a lot of "*aa*" rivers;

- in Northern France:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aa_(Frankrijk<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aa_%28Frankrijk>
)

- a long list on
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aa_(waternaam<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aa_%28waternaam>
)



In the Netherlands there is a town *Oss* http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oss but
I don't know the etymolgy

For *Ossendrecht *http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossendrecht gives
*Usse*(dune) + drecht



Regards,

Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  8 01:08:30 2008
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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 17:08:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (04) [E]
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,



You wrote:



In actual fact *-hard* (~ *-hardt* ~ *-hart*) does belong to the "hard"
group which in early times had the additional meaning 'bold', 'audacious',
'intrepid', 'brave', 'strong'.

It occurs in numerous men's names, such as Adalhard, Bernhard, Bogohard,
Burghard, Cynhard, Eberhard, Eginhard ~ Einhard, Ekhard, Erhard, Gerhard,
Meinhard and Willhard.



Don't want to spoil your party, but I seem to recall that -hard, once it got
into French/Frankish hands, seriously deteriorated *s*. I mean, all those
nouns ending on -ard, when they were reintroduced in England bore a negative
meaning. What to say about:



stinkard, drunkard, braggard, dullard, sluggard, bastard, laggard,
niggard...



However, maybe the original idea was not necessarily to create a pejorative
noun, but rather to emphasize a certain quality, be it good or bad. I guess,
the suffix "hard" was just meant to act like some sort of superlative.
Hence, "Ron" would be the one who is "reigning hard", "the supreme
ruler"...yes, the kahuna *s*.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Luc ... I think.

So French *-ard* does indead come from Germanic *-hard* and then came to be
imported back into Germanic (Dutch and English)?

Hence, "Ron" would be the one who is "reigning hard", "the supreme
ruler"...yes, the kahuna *s*.


Tsk, tsk ... You may call me pretty much anything you like, but leave the
Kahuna out of it! Besides, he's not the ruler. That would be an *ali'i*. The
Kahuna has you know that a *kahuna* is a spiritual leader. Most people don't
know that, though, so he asked me to tell you he forgives you.

Me ke aloha!

Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  8 19:08:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:08:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.08 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.110828.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (03) [D/E]

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.
> <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

[...]


> For *Ossendrecht *http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossendrecht
> gives
> *Usse*(dune) + drecht
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger

Hi,

Tja, er wordt gezegd dat usse de duinen zijn langs de Schelde.

Zijn er mensen die wat informatie kunnen geven over dit woord 'usse'?

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,



You wrote:



So French *-ard* does indeed come from Germanic *-hard* and then came to be
imported back into Germanic (Dutch and English)?



I'm not sure. Later on, when lying in bed, I was thinking to myself:
Mmm...maybe -ard should rather be tied with German "Art" and Dutch "aard",
kind (E). Or maybe both words -hard and -a(a)rd interfered (which could well
be the case, given the French disposition to drop initial h). Will have to
look things up.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx



----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Luc.

If it is indeed a Germanic loan in French I'd tend toward assuming
*-hard*is the source, perhaps mixed up with
*-(i)er*. This must have happened before the Norman invasion of Britain
then, considering all those words with "-ard" in English and their
occurrence in Middle English.

The presence of words with "-ard" and *-aard* in English and Dutch
respectively but their (apparent) absence in German and in
non-Dutch-dominated Low Saxon does indeed seem historically consistent with
early French contacts. It would be interesting to see if such words exist in
German dialects with long-standing French contact, such as Luxemburgish and
Alsatian, Alsatian in particular because Dutch as a medium can be ruled out
in that case. But then again, it could have been a matter of Northern
Frankish *langue d'o?l* only, most likely Old Norman, Old Walloon and Old
Picard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  8 19:24:36 2008
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Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.08 (02) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

Here's an appeal for rounding up one or more persons willing to contribute
Picard translations of our Wren story:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

It would be nice to have all direct contact language varieties of the
Lowlands language varieties represented. We already have Walloon (
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/wallon.php) and Norman (
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/guernesiais.php), and further varieties of
those would be nice (such as Continental Norman).

In the east, we could do with a Kashubian (Cassubian) version.

Please see if any of you can arrange for those and any other language
varieties to be represented. Please bear in mind: the more the merrier, and
more than one version per variety is more than fine.

Please send any material to my private address.

Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  8 23:33:05 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:33:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.08 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.153305.0800.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.08 (03) [LS/E]

Namensfrauge "Osning", "Hase" und "Osnabr?g" l?st!
               - Onomastics resolved (see ==> English below) -

Hey Liigl?nders,

Am 07.12.2008 um 19:52 schrieb Diederik Masure:

modern Norewgian word ?s meaning something like hill, of which the Old Norse
ancestor has to be found under the letter a:

?s-s (3), an., st. M. (a): nhd. Bergr?cken; E.: germ. *amsa-, *amsaz, st. M.
(a), Schulter, R?cken (M.); idg. *omesos, *omsos, M., Schulter, Pokorny 778;
L.: Vr 16b

Wolfram Antepohl schraif:

yes: Old Norse "os/as" definitely means "hill/mountain" and the term is
still used in the modern scandinavian languages. The Swedish word is "?s".
The term indicates a hill or mountain with vegetation even on the top - in
contrast to "fj?ll" which is above the tree border (i.e. a rocky or even icy
top). Hence, "os" ought to be adequate for the "Teutoburger Wald". "A/aa/?"
is even today the Scandinavian word for "river" and is a very common element
of settlement names.

Danke juu, Diederik un Wolfram! Tohaupe met dem wat Olaf Bordasch un ik
ruutfunden hewwet, schiint mi de naumensfrauge van "Osning" (nhd.
"Teutoburger Wald"), "Hase" (bi?ke) und stat "Osnabr?g" nu l?st! Auk wan dat
nich der lesde "rechtskrachtige" beweys is (men kwellen f?ylet van de
vorkarolingiske tiit), haule ik dat ergiewnis nu f?r waarschiinlik:

De Orsprunk is en germanske beteykneng "oos" f?r den Bi?rgr?gge, de up plaat
d??dsk "Osning" heyt.
(Dat -ing mag wual ne aule endenge f?r landskap siin odr k?mp daarvan, wat
Olaf Bordasch ruutfunden heft: van "egge" (germansk eggia) gliik "kaaler
bi?rgkam", d. h. eene verduwwelung, as de l??de nigmeer w?st hadden, wat
"oosn" of "?sn" bed??det hadde.)

Un van dem oosn/?sn (bi?rgkam) hadde de bi?ke "Hase" so wat as "oosn-ah" (ah
f?r ahwa=water) as ben?imeng kriegen, wiils dat de bi?ke is, de daar
entspringt un dar lank l?pt.

Un de sidlenge of buurskup, dat duorp (later de stat), de ?mme de foort, dat
br?gsken tom ??wergaun, ??werkw??ren van de Hase her?mme lag, was demfolgens
"Oosn-ah-br?gge", nhd. Osnabr?ck n??mt, aulder auk Asnabruga/-brughi, in
goudem plaat un schriifwiis van daage:

"Osnabr?g".

(Up plaat/westf??lsk un middelniierd??tsk heft Osnabr?ck heeten: Osenbr?gge,
Ousenbr?gge, Eosenbr?gge, Usenbr?gge, Iusenbr?gge, un gar volksetymologisk
verf?lsket Ossenbr?gge heyten. Mi schiint, dee hadden nig blaut de
bed??tenge van "Osn" vergieten, men auk den tosammenhank met der bieke
"Osenah=Hase" ...

Dat swediske ?s un dat nynorsk ( un echt-norsk-dialektiske, nig
riiksnors=danske) "?s, aas" (o. ?.) for "bi?rgr?gge" hewwet mi vannaumiddag
de norwi?geske g?ste up eyner bestaahungsfiier in miiner bekantskap
versiekert. Se hewwet auk segt, dat dat norsk ?/aa as IPA[o:]=lang-o un nig
[?/?/?:] uutspruoken wert, waarhengiigen norsk "o" meer as [?], binau [u]
lut, wan ik dat recht verstaunen hewwe.

***


Thank you, Diederik and Wolfram! Together with the findings of Olaf Bordasch
and me, I have the impression, that the name question of "Osning" (Teutonian
Forest), "Hase" (river) and city of "Osnabr?ck" now are resolved. Even if
that is not the last "justifiable" evidence (lack of precarolingian time
sources), is the result ad my advice verisimilar:

The origin is a germanish term "oos" for the ridge which in LS is named
"Osning".(The -ing might be an old ending for landscape or comes from that
what Olaf Bordasch has found out: from "egge" [germanish eggia] equal to
bare mountain ridge, i. e. a doubling, as the meaning of "oos" or "?s" had
become unknown.)

An off the oosn/?sn the river "Hase" became her name, something like
"oosn-ah" (ah for ahwa=water), because that river flow from and alongside
the mountain range.

And the settlement (later town, city) which is situated around the ford or
bridge was therefore named "Oosn-ah-br?gge", NHG Osnabr?ck, elder
Asnabruga/-brughi, in good LS and ortography:

"Osnabr?g".

(In LS/Westphalian and Middle-LS Osnabr?ck was called/written: Osenbr?gge,
Ousenbr?gge, Eosenbr?gge, Usenbr?gge, Iusenbr?gge, or even - folk's
etymologish bastardly (adulterated) Ossenbr?gge [Oxbridge]. Apparently
people had forgotten not only the meaning of "Osn" but the relation with the
river "Osenah=Hase"...)

The Swedish ?s and the nynorsk (and genuine, vernacularly dialectical Norsk,
not riiksnors=danish) "?s, aas" (o. sim.) for "[mountain] ridge" has been
reconfirmed to me by the Norwegian guests on a sepulture celebration in my
acquaintance, this afternoon. Furthermore they said, that norsk ?/aa is
prononced as IPA[o:]=long-o and not [?/?/?:], but norsk "o" more like [?],
almost [u], if I understood well.

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  9 01:28:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:28:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.08 (04) [E/German]
Message-ID: <MON.8.DEC.2008.172853.0800.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,



The -hard suffix in Germanic names proves to be the same word as present day
"hard" (E), and not related to Art (G), aard (D). Semantically there was a
shift from "hard, strong, strict, courageous" (see "hardy" (E) and "nen
ard?" (B) for a bold guy), to more of a pet suffix later on.

By the way, all those English and Dutch nouns on -ard derive from French
-ard, but French got it in turn from German(ic) -hard says Kluge.

You're in good company with this name, because Socrates has the same ending;
Greek kratos, kartos also meaning strength. Again the same word is Sanskrit
kratu, denoting spiritual power.

As for the first part of your name, there's Dutch painter Rembrandt who
shares it with you. Note that Rembrandt lived for many years in the Jewish
quarter of Amsterdam *s*.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: I scanned two pages from the dtv-Atlas of Namenkunde, for those who
would like more detail re etymology and classification of German(ic)
names...here it is:

Motivierung germ. Rufnamen

*In germ. Rufnamen sind bestimmte semanti?sche Bereiche wie Kampf oder
Tierwelt stark vertreten. Dagegen treten andere Be?reiche zur?ck, etwa G?te
und Milde oder die Pflanzenwelt, aus denen andere V?lker gern ihre Namen
sch?pfen.*

Germ. Frauennamen unterscheiden sich hinsichtlich der bevorzugten semant.
Be?reiche nicht wesentlich von den M?nner?namen.

Die Kenntnis oder Beachtung der Bedeutung des Namens oder seiner einzelnen
Glieder spielte bei der Namengebung schon in ahd. Zeit eine ?hnlich
untergeordnete Rolle wie heute, *wo selten jemand Reinhard oder Christiane
benannt wird, weil dies 'Rat' + 'stark' bzw. 'die Christin' bedeutet. *

Manche Namenglieder waren schon ahd. unverst?ndlich, jedenfalls nicht mehr
im normalen Sprachgebrauch vorhanden; so war das ?bliche Wort f?r 'Ruhm'
schon ruom, nicht mehr germ. hroth, das nur in Namen wie Ruod[olf]
weiterlebte.

Doch zur Zeit der Sch?pfung dieser Namen (v. a. in der Zeit der germ.
V?lkerwande?rung) haben die Inhalte und der poetisch?erhabene Gebrauch
dieser W?rter - sie wa?ren gro?teils in der Dichtersprache beheima?tet - zu
ihrer Wahl beigetragen. Es ist auf?schlu?reich, welche Auffassung vom
Men?schen und seiner Welt sich dabei auswirkte und die Namengebung
motivierte.

Die ?lteste Namenschicht nennt man Pri?m?rbildungen. In ihnen l??t sich noch
von der Bedeutung der Einzelglieder und von der Gesamtkomposition des
Rufnamens her eine sinnvolle Motivierung erkennen.

Davon abgesetzt wird die j?ngere Schicht der Sekund?rbildungen, bei denen
eine solche Motivierung nicht mehr deutlich ist. Namen dieser Schicht sind
durch neue, oft mechan. Zusammensetzungen von Erst- und Zweitgliedern
entstanden.

Bedeutung der Zweit- und Erstglieder

Den Zweitgliedern kommt als Grundw?r?tem der Zusammensetzungen bes. Gewicht
zu.

Diese Zweitglieder dienen vor allem dazu, den Mann zu bezeichnen. Nicht aber
direkt und auf allt?gliche Weise als Mann, Sohn, Held oder Krieger, sondern
indirekt, *sozusa?gen poetisch umschreibend, in bildhafter Ausdrucksweise
(durch Metaphern)*, wie man etwa einen Mann als L?wen bezeichnen kann, der
sich mannhaft f?r etwas einsetzt. Diese Bezeichnungen f?r den Mann decken
vor allem folgende Aspekte ab:

- Der Mann als Krieger. Abb. A bringt eini?ge W?rter f?r 'Kampf in ihrer
erschlosse?nen germ. Form (*).

Sie treten bereits im Ahd. nur noch in Namen auf. Dazu kommen W?rter f?r
Mut, Stolz, Erhabenheit und Glanz des Helden. Sie ordnen sich alle den
Namen?w?rtern aus dem Bereich des Kampfes zu.

- Auf den Mann als Angeh?rigen eines Stammes kann sich auch das Namenwort
-fridu beziehen, indem es ihn als H?ter von Frieden, d. h. Recht und
gegenseitiger Hilfe innerhalb seines Stammes darstellt, w?hrend er als
K?mpfer nach au?en agiert.

- Der Mann als Herrscher. Die betreffenden Zweitglieder in Abb. A beruhen
auf wal?tan 'herrschen', rihhi 'Herrscher, Macht', wart 'W?chter'; auch
Namen auf -heri 'Heer' (nhd. Walther, G?nther) meinen eher den F?hrer, nicht
nur den Angeh?ri?gen des Heeres.

- Der Mann als Knecht steht nicht im Wi?derspruch zum Bisherigen, da er als
Knecht nur gegen?ber Gott, G?ttern oder gott?hnlichen M?chten bezeichnet
wird.

- Zum Mann als Maskentr?ger vgl. altengl. grim 'Maske', zu den Namen auf
-bart den Volksnamen Langobarden, von denen be?richtet wird, da? sie sich
die Haare vor den Ohren lang wachsen lie?en, damit es wie ein Bart auss?he.

- Der Mann als Tier: s. S. 27.

- Als Ding wird der Mann meist mit Bezug auf seine Kampf- und
Schutzf?higkeit be?zeichnet. Er erscheint als 'Schild' (rant), 'Schwert'
(poetisch durch brant umschrie?ben) oder 'Stab, Keule' der Seinen.

Die Erstglieder liefern als Bestimmungs?w?rter n?here Erg?nzungen; mit ihnen
wird bes. die Welt des Mannes stilisiert. Sie er?scheint vornehmlich in der
Perspektive des Herrschers und Kriegers (Abb. B).

So zeigt sich in der ?ltesten Schicht germ. Rufnamen der Idealtyp des Mannes
in einer kriegerischen Welt. Dies wird aus den histo?rischen Umst?nden der
V?lkerwanderungs?zeit verst?ndlich. Der Entfaltung der germ. Namenwelt
liegen aber auch sehr viel ?ltere Vorstufen zugrunde, die bis ins
Indogerma?nische zur?ckreichen k?nnten.

Diese Skizze der Bedeutungsfelder germ. Namen beruht auf
GOTTSCHALD/SCH?TZ?EICHEL. Sie l??t sich wohl um manche Aspekte erg?nzen,
schwerlich aber so prin?zipiell ver?ndern, wie es SlEBS versucht hat. Nach
ihm spricht aus den germ. Namen ?die erwerbende bzw. besitzende T?tigkeit
der m?nnl. Namentr?ger, die hervorbringende bzw. beh?tende der weibl.? Die
Namen?w?rter gruppiert er um friedliche b?uerli?che Wunschvorstellungen wie
Gedeihen, Fruchtbarkeit, Ertrag, Verm?gen. Dazu mu? er freilich
Kriegerisches oft gewaltsam in Friedliches ?ndern, etwa ger nicht von
'Speer', sondern von 'Begehren' ableiten, oder wolf nicht vom Raubtier,
sondern von 'schwer arbeiten' (vgl. niederdt. wulfen).

Theophor nennt man Namen, die einen Got?tes- oder G?tternamen als
Bestandteil enthal?ten. Sie begegnen bei vielen V?lkern.

In griech. Diogenes, Herodotos stecken Zeus und Hera; Apollonios, Dionysios
bedeuten 'dem Apoll bzw. Dionysos geweiht'.

Jo- (Je-, Ja-) und El-, -el in hebr. Namen beziehen sich auf die
Gottesbezeichnungen Jahwe und El(ohim), vgl:

Jonathan und Nathanael 'Jahwe/Gott hat gegeben', Jojakim (Joachim)
'Jahwe/Gott richte(t) auf, Jochanan (griech. Johannes) 'Jahwe hat sich
erbarmt', Joseph 'Jahwe m?ge (weitere Kinder) hinzuf?gen'; Elija/ Elias
'mein Gott ist Jahwe', Elisabeth 'Gott hat geschworen' oder 'Gott ist
Voll?kommenheit', Daniel 'Gott richtet" Ga?briel 'Gott hat sich stark
gezeigt, St?rke Gottes, Mann Gottes', Michael 'wer ist wie Gott', Raphael
'Gott hat geheilt', Samuel 'der (ungenannte) Gott ist El', Uriel 'Gott ist
mein Licht'. (S. auch S. 39)

Bei den Germanen begegnen einzelne G?t?ter in Rufnamen erst etwa seit dem
10. Jh. n. Chr., vor allem im Norden. Thor findet sich in der Wikingerzeit
in ca. 70 Rufnamen (Thor-sten 'Stein', -leif 'Erbe', -hild 'Kampf, -wald
'Gebieter'), Freyr in 10, Odin in 3. Wahrscheinlich waren, als die ?lteren
Ruf?namen entstanden, die germ. G?ttergestalten noch nicht so als Personen
ausgepr?gt. Je?denfalls finden sich in germ. Rufnamen vor dem 10. Jh. nur
allgemeine Bezeichnungen f?r g?ttliche(s) Wesen:

ans (Ase; zur G?ttergruppe der Asen ge?h?ren Odin, Thor usw.) in Ans(h)elm,
-gar; alb (mythisches Wesen, Elf(e)) in Albe?rich ('Alb'+'m?chtig'), Alfred
(+'Rat'), Al?boin (+'Freund'), Elftraud (aber Elfriede: adal
'edel'+'Friede');

got (etymolog. von gie?en, wohl 'Wesen, dem man Opfer gie?t'). Das Wort got
war vor der Christianisierung Neutrum und tritt daher nur als Erstglied auf:
Gotfrid, -hart, -lind, -hild, -bert.

Die germ. Kultverb?nde der Ingv?onen und Irminonen sind nach den Gottheiten
Inguaz und Irmin benannt. Beide G?tternamen fin?den sich in Rufnamen wie

Ing(e)bert, -brand, -frid, -borg, -gerd, -tr(a)ud bzw. Irma, Irm(en)-, Erm-,
Eh?rentr(a)ud, Armgard, Emma.

Aus solchen Rufnamen entstanden Fami?liennamen wie Engberding, Ingram,
ln?gerl(e), Enger(s), lng-, Eng(e)wald bzw. lrmert, Emmert, Armending,
lrmer, Em?rath, E(r)mrich, lrm(i)sch(er), Erm(e)ke.

In den religi?sen Bereich f?hren auch die Namen mit run 'Rune, Zauber':
Runfrid, Hild-, Sig-, Ortrun. *Dies ist evtl. auch der Fall bei ragin-
(rein-) 'Ratschlu? (des Schicksals?)' in Rei(n)mar, -hart, -frid, -hold,
-mund usw., woraus ?ber 300 Familiennamen stammen: *

*Reimer( s), Reiner(s), Reimann, Rembrandt* ...

Theriophor nennt man Namen, die eine Tierbezeichnung als Bestandteil
enthalten. Sie waren bei den Germ. bes. beliebt, vgl.:

Arnhild 'Adler'+'Kampf, Rambod 'Rabe' +'Bote, Gebieter', Wolfgang/Gang(w)olf
'Wolf+'(Waffen)gang', Bernhard 'B?r'+ 'stark'. F?RSTEMANN belegt ?ber 140
Ruf?namenmit '-Rabe', 70 mit 'Eber-'.

Insgesamt begegnen in germ. Rufnamen fol?gende Tiere: Adler, B?r, Bock,
Eber, Falke (Habicht), Hirsch, Hund, Kr?he, Marder, Ra?be, Ro?, Schwan,
Stier, Widder, Wolf, Wurm (= Lindwurm, Schlange, Drache).

Viele dieser Tiere sind stark, aggressiv usw.; daher d?rften solche Namen in
Verbindung mit der Vorstellung vom Mann als Krieger zu sehen sein. Dieser
wird auch von Dich?tern metaphorisch als Kampfb?r, Schwert?wolf usw.
umschrieben, Vorstellungen, die auch in Namen wie Guntbern ('Kampf+ 'B?r')
oder Hiltulf ('Kampf+'Wolf) wieder?kehren.

*Ein lat. Evangelienkommentar des 5./6. Jh. bemerkt: ?Die Barbaren pflegen
ihren S?h?nen aggressive Namen von Bestien, wilden Tieren, Raubv?geln zu
geben, weil sie es f?r ruhmvoll halten, kampft?chtige S?hne zu haben.? *

Dieselben Tiere wurden auch als Bildmotiv auf germ. Waffen, Schmuck- und
Ge?brauchsgegenst?nden gew?hlt.

Abb. A zeigt eine vergoldete Bronze?schnalle des 7. Jh. aus Seeland, auf der
ei?ne M?nnermaske symmetr. von Adler-, Eber- und Wolfsk?pfen gerahmt wird;
da?neben einen Helmbeschlag aus Torslunda, auf dem Krieger mit Ebern auf dem
Helm zu sehen sind.

Diese Tiere spielen auch in den religi?sen Vorstellungen der Germanen eine
Rolle. Die Bedeutung tierhaltiger Rufnamen f?hrt da?her ?ber diejenige
blo?er Metaphern f?r kriegerische F?higkeiten wie Schnelligkeit, Kraft usw.
hinaus. Versuche, bestimmte Tier?namen direkt mit einzelnen Gottheiten in
Beziehung setzen zu wollen, etwa die Wolf?und Rabennamen mit Wodan, die
Ebema?men mit Fro-Freyr usw., engen allerdings die Vielfalt m?glicher
symbol. Bez?ge solcher Namen und Tiere zu sehr ein.

Theriophore Namen erkl?ren sich vielmehr generell aus der Verehrung
archaischer Kulturen f?r das menschliche F?higkeiten ?berragende Wesen
bestimmter Tiere, die bis zu ihrer Imitation in Form der Maskierung als Tier
oder autosuggestiver ?Verwand?lung? in dieses gehen und so in die religi?se
Sph?re hineinreichen kann.

Zeitlich gesehen z?hlen die Wolfsnamen zur ?ltesten Schicht, die bis in
indogerm. Ur?spr?nge zur?ckreicht, w?hrend etwa die Adlernamen erst bei den
Germanen aufge?kommen oder zu gr??erer Bedeutung ge?langt sind.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  9 15:51:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 07:51:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.075119.0800.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.07 (01) [E]

quick update, I suddenly realised I was stupid and forgot about the modern
Norewgian word ?s meaning something like hill, of which the Old Norse
ancestor has to be found under the letter a:

*?s-s *

(3), an., st.

Diederik,

Also remember that modern Norwegian has ? for a brook or a stream.

Ben
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  9 18:17:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:17:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.101723.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Our Tom Mc Rae's corner of our gallery has been flourishing lately. Please
visit it once in a while.

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae.php

Underneath Tom's picture you will find a number of links that lead to the
various works of his.

The latest works we have added are two parts of a children's story Tom wrote
for a specific little girl.

(1) The Strange Tale of Cuddles the Crocodile
      http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_cuddles1.php

(2) Cuddles Goes Home
      http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_cuddles2.php

The are a lot of fun and reflect Tom's specific imagination and sense of
humor. You might want to share them with the children in your lives, also
with peoplethat have not forgotten to be children at heart.  I certainly got
a real kick and many a chuckle out of Tom's story.

Works that are similarly fun are the well-known fairy-tales Tom reworked in
Edinburgh Scots and set in neighborhoods of his native city:

Flo White an' the Sivun Wee Teuchters
[Little Snow White (Schneewittchen)]
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_flo.php

Jimmy Goldie an The Three Baer Bruvvers
[Goldilocks and the Three Bears]
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_baer.php

Shooie an Gretta
[Hansel and Gretel (H?nsel und Gretel)]
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_shooie.php

Wee Toaty Rid Ridin' Hewd
[Little Red Riding Hood (Rotk?ppchen)]
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/mcrae_ridinhewd.php

I have added a special children's category to the gallery and encourage
everyone to consider submitting their child-specific works (which may be
written, audio, video or visual art, or any combination of these). In fact,
I suggest we specifically address children on-line if we want our area of
interest to be continued. Perhaps a special kiddy corner presentation would
be in order.

Please share your thoughts or ideas about this.

Thanks for your effort and support, Tom!

Thanks and regards to everyone,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  9 21:28:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:28:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.09 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.DEC.2008.132837.0800.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Roger,



Je schreef:



In the Netherlands there is a town *Oss* http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oss but
I don't know the etymolgy



Ik heb dit:



Oss, oudere vormen zijn Ohseno en Osne, die kunnen wijzen op een afleiding
van germ. *ohso 'os'. In de salische wetten komt voor Mallobergium Ohseno,
d.i. de malberg der ossen d.w.z. der 'ossenweiders'.



Zeer onzeker is een verklaring uit gallisch *ouksu 'boven' of *oukso
'hoogte'.



Groetjes,



Luc Hellinckx

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 10 17:25:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:25:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.10 (01) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.10.DEC.2008.092514.0800.>

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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Lowlanners,



they really do it:



http://www.leeuwardercourant.nl/nieuws/regio/article4109509.ece



Some reactions of the readers (to find more look here
http://www.leeuwardercourant.nl/nieuws/regio/article4109509.ece/U_woont_aan_de_Veenpluis_Dat_wordt_de_Moark?showComments=1
 ):



*"geweldig hebben ze niet wat anders te doen dan deze flauwekul."*



*"Ik denk dat daar nog veel ellende van gaat komen m.b.t. postbezorging ed."
*



*"Grappig. Gaan de mensen daar nu ook niet meer naar het toilet, maar naar
het skyth?s?"*



*"Is de bewoners naar hun mening gevraagd?"!*



Na, denn...! "Wat den'n eyn'n syn' Uul, is den'n annern syn' Nachtigall!"



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 15:37:06 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:37:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.073706.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.10 (01) [D/E/LS]

Beste Lowlanners,



yesterday I sent you a link about the intention to change street- and
placenames into Frisian in Fryslan/Netherlands:
http://www.leeuwardercourant.nl/nieuws/regio/article4109509.ece



Today Piet Bult (who got a copy of that yesterday's mail) sent me an article
from an insert of the same 'Leeuwarder Courant' just showing the other thing
in East-Frisian/Germany (i.e. change of Low Saxon street names into Standard
German). I found some additional links in German newspapers:

http://www.szon.de/news/kultur/aktuell/200811171040.html?_from=rss

http://www.ostfriesische-nachrichten.de/neu/index_volltext.asp?ID=24003



Let me give a short summary to those of you who aren't familiar with German:



The community of *'Gro?efehn'* in East Friesland/Germany decided to change
some Low Saxon street names *within a new commercial area* of their village
into Standard German because they experienced that customers and drivers of
any delivery services, who don't speak LS, have difficulties to find their
addressees.

By the scandalised leader of the German 'Frisian Party' this step is
suspected to be against the spirit of the times - in other regions of
Northern Germany people try to add, sometimes to re-invent the Low Saxon
names of their locations. And furtheron he fears that this affair could lead
to the result that the EU will get everything out of this matter and make a
decision about  any regularized standard for new street names.



I'll enjoy to hear your opinions!



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 15:34:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:34:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.073438.0800.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: "Howard Scott" <howliosta at gmail.com>
Subject: Language varieties

A German translator colleague was asked to translated this bit of
dialogue from German. The trouble is that it is not German. A couple
of Dutch translators have said it might be a variety of Flemish, or
even Frisian, but no one was sure (or understood what was being said).

Have uploaded the file temporily here:
http://www.attlc-ltac.org/MB-AOR-German_Transl.mov

If you can't access that file, here is an audio-old version:
http://www.attlc-ltac.org/Germanic-mystery.wav

I thought on this list surely someone could identify it.

Hartelijk dank,
Howard Scott

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Swedish?

Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 16:54:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:54:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.085447.0800.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (01) [E]

> From: "Howard Scott" <howliosta at gmail.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> A German translator colleague was asked to translated this
> bit of
> dialogue from German. The trouble is that it is not German.
> A couple
> of Dutch translators have said it might be a variety of
> Flemish, or
> even Frisian, but no one was sure (or understood what was
> being said).
>
> Have uploaded the file temporily here:
> http://www.attlc-ltac.org/MB-AOR-German_Transl.mov
>
> If you can't access that file, here is an audio-old
> version:
> http://www.attlc-ltac.org/Germanic-mystery.wav
>
> I thought on this list surely someone could identify it.
>
> Hartelijk dank,
> Howard Scott

Hi,

Norwegian.
[But not the kind you will hear in Oslo.]

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 16:56:57 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:56:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.085657.0800.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]

What on Earth has speaking a language got to do with finding a street?! I
have only the vaguest idea how to pronounce Mechelininkatu in Helsinki, but
I can still find it on map, and get there if I need to.



If they can't read maps, they shouldn't be driving trucks for a living.



Paul

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 19:02:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:02:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.110244.0800.>

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From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (03) [E]

Theo, are you sure it's Norwegian? I thought I understood most Nowegian
varieties but I can't underst?nd a word here. The setting might be an oil
rig, so that fits but ... Can you understand what they say? I can rule out
Swedish for sure.



Greetings



Wolfram



-- 

Wolfram Antepohl

Lindesbergsgatan 4

582 53 Link?ping

013-125243

073-8031585

wolfram at antepohl.se


----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Howard,



I thought on this list surely someone could identify it.

The firm they're working for is "Sarens", which is the biggest Belgian
company in crane-business. Even on an international level, they're
keyplayers. They can lift (almost) everything you wish, even on Antarctica
they're doing business. By the way, the family name Sarens is one of the few
examples of a matronymicum, Sarens < Sara.

I grew up 5 km from the place where "Sooike Sarens" once founded his
company, in Steenhuffel. Recently they moved to Wolvertem, which is also
nearby.



The guy in the end said: "Met een en twee houten met glasanker, kan je een
fout geven" = "M? i?n en twi? houte m? glasanker, kunde een fout geve"



The fact that he aspires the initial h in houte, means that he comes  from a
region northeast of a line connecting the north of Antwerp with Tienen. So
it's definitely a Brabantish dialect, more specifically what we call
"Kempisch" or "Kempens". The Kempen are a wooded area in eastern Antwerp.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 11 19:08:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:08:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (06) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.11.DEC.2008.110848.0800.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (04) [E]

Paul wrote:
If they can't read maps, they shouldn't be driving trucks for a living.

Paul, you don't understand.
This is for the poor truckers  from New Zealand
who only read Maori written in Chinese characters...
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]

Mir fehlen ob dieses Bl?dsinns echt die Worte (Rademacher)

Da m?sste doch eine Unterschriftenaktion wirken.
Ganz LLL gegen eine Handvoll Stadtr?te.
Besser: Die Welt (Globalisierung) gegen...
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de

>>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.10 (01) [D/E/LS]

Beste Lowlanners,

yesterday I sent you a link about the intention to change street- and
placenames into Frisian in Fryslan/Netherlands:
http://www.leeuwardercourant.nl/nieuws/regio/article4109509.ece

Today Piet Bult (who got a copy of that yesterday's mail) sent me an article
from an insert of the same 'Leeuwarder Courant' just showing the other thing
in East-Frisian/Germany (i.e. change of Low Saxon street names into Standard
German). I found some additional links in German newspapers:

http://www.szon.de/news/kultur/aktuell/200811171040.html?_from=rss

http://www.ostfriesische-nachrichten.de/neu/index_volltext.asp?ID=24003

Let me give a short summary to those of you who aren't familiar with German:

The community of /'Gro?efehn'/ in East Friesland/Germany decided to change
some Low Saxon street names *within a new commercial area* of their village
into Standard German because they experienced that customers and drivers of
any delivery services, who don't speak LS, have difficulties to find their
addressees.

By the scandalised leader of the German 'Frisian Party' this step is
suspected to be against the spirit of the times - in other regions of
Northern Germany people try to add, sometimes to re-invent the Low Saxon
names of their locations. And furtheron he fears that this affair could lead
to the result that the EU will get everything out of this matter and make a
decision about  any regularized standard for new street names.

I'll enjoy to hear your opinions!


Rademacher's reference to EU regulating street names of course only tries to
stir fears of centralism unadapted to local needs. (The old crooked bananas
bureaucracy thing) Of course the EU will never regulate street names.
Just as you try to stir fears of invented Low Laxon. I don't know no single
example of "re-invented" Low Saxon names. Please give examples.
Some people *felt* difficulties with their Low Saxon addresses. Not cause
"delivery services could not find them". I have read most of the media
coverage since the issue emerged in late November (I look upon all news
covering "Plattd??tsch" on Google News). I haven't heard a single example of
actual delivery problems or any other severe problems. The only problem is,
that they sometimes have to say the name twice or spell it. On the phone for
example. That's most likely true. I too live in a street with a Low Saxon
name and regularly have to spell it. But that's also true for many first
names (my first name is Marcus and I have to inform people regularly not to
write it Markus), last names (my last name Buck is very simple and I still
often have to correct people who try to write Bock [in a move to correct it
to a more Standard German form]), place names (Rademacher gives the example
uf Upleward), many other street names (I guess, the inhabitants of the
Cuvrystra?e in the Inner City of Berlin for example have to spell their
streetname just as often as the Hockereestraat people from Gro?efehn) and
names in general.

Were the names difficult in any special way? Okay, Hockereestraat was kind
of (I am not even sure this is the right spelling, it's a relatively new
commercial area and not yet in any directories and not visible on Google
Maps for example. In the press it was spelled H?kereestraat sometimes).
Schoosterstraat and Sniederstraat are not very hard to spell. And
Timmermannsring is even easier than the new name Hanomagstra?e. Gro?efehn is
near to the Dutch border. If the companies in the commercial area Ulbargen
want to trade with the Netherlands too, I guess the Low Saxon names would
have been easier. And the special signs in the German names don't make it
easier in international trade. Perhaps Dutchmen can handle ?, but in most
other countries people will give up on ?, they often write a capital B
instead or similar things. Well, I don't know what kind of companies are
settled or want to settle in the area. Those commercial areas
("Gewerbegebiet") often consist of rather low level commerce (car washes,
carpentry, locksmithery, car dealers etc.) and not international business.
If this kind of commerce would be settling there, I could hardly understand,
why the names should pose problems, cause they would mostly have regional
customers and regional suppliers.

I have to admit, it's kind of a media bubble. It was pure chance that a
journalist was present on the council meeting of the Gro?efehn council and
covered the decision in the local newspaper from where it made its way into
national newspapers. If the journalist wouldn't have been present, it would
have went through unnoticed. That's a sad thing, there should be much more
awareness for things like that. It shouldn't be possible that things like
that go through unnoticed. Jonny, imagine Gro?efehn would have decided to
name the streets after people from the resistance against the Nazis in 2005,
when the commercial area was set up, and now in 2008 they would decide that
the names of those resistance members are too hard to spell and they want to
change it to names easier to spell. That would have been a national scandal!
Gro?efehn erasing resistance members from their streets!
It's irrational. From a pragmatic point of view it should be acceptable to
change both the Low Saxon names and the names of hard-to-spell resistance
members to easier ones without anyone objecting. But people still object,
cause they have emotions. They don't like people who want to stop Nazi
resistance commemoration, even if the commemoration is just three years old.
And it should be just as accepted to not like people who want to abolish the
cultural endurance of Low Saxon on the public, even if it is only three year
old.

Marcus Buck

PS: You too mentioned the move to Frisian names. Actually I am not a friend
of such moves. I am all supporting the move to fully recognize Frisian and
give it all the same rights, but that should not mean to abolish the Dutch
name. It's okay to write both names on the town signs or even to write the
Frisian name in big letters and the Dutch name in small, and it's okay to
write official documents in Frisian. But the Dutch name shouldn't be erased.
Why can't towns have two official names? One Frisian, one Dutch? "Official"
doesn't mean "only one".
(But I am anti-status-quo. Many people only look at the status quo and
support equal rights in cases like "Estonian vs. Russian" in Estonia. I
personally regard this as an invader/defender situation and would recognize
the right of the Estonians to put pressure on the Russians. As long as it's
not 'op'pression and a fair kind of pressure. The case of Dutch vs. Frisian
is similar. Frisian has the right to put pressure on Dutch but not to
'op'press Dutch [like erasing their place names].)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 15:10:31 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:10:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.12 (01) [D]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.DEC.2008.071031.0800.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.09 (03) [D]

Dag,

In Frans-Vlaanderen is een dorp dat 'Oxela?re' heet.

In zijn oudste vorm wordt dat osclarum (1115) en ook Osclare (1122)

De uitleg ervoor :

< Germaans ansu = God(?) + hla?ri = moerassige beboste grond.

Het eerste element kan natuurlijk ook van 'os' komen, naargelang de uitleg
van Gysseling of Dauzat.



Groetjes,

Luc Vanbrabant

Oekene


From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Roger,



Je schreef:



In the Netherlands there is a town *Oss* http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oss but
I don't know the etymolgy



Ik heb dit:



Oss, oudere vormen zijn Ohseno en Osne, die kunnen wijzen op een afleiding
van germ. *ohso 'os'. In de salische wetten komt voor Mallobergium Ohseno,
d.i. de malberg der ossen d.w.z. der 'ossenweiders'.



Zeer onzeker is een verklaring uit gallisch *ouksu 'boven' of *oukso
'hoogte'.



Groetjes,



Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 15:12:50 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:12:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.DEC.2008.071250.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.11 (03) [E]

Funny history of people recognising it as nearly any Germanic language from
frisian to swedish and a norwegian dialect! I have to admit myself too that
I wouldnt have seen it as Dutch before I read Luc's posting, but it is
indeed Brabantish once you realised that. Its no frisian or scandinavic
language for sure, I can tell at least.
Greetings, Diederik

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 16:14:13 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:14:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (03) [E]
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (04) [E]

Dear Paul,



you wrote:

What on Earth has speaking a language got to do with finding a street?! I
have only the vaguest idea how to pronounce Mechelininkatu in Helsinki, but
I can still find it on map, and get there if I need to.

If they can't read maps, they shouldn't be driving trucks for a living.

But you should keep in mind that these truck drivers come from all over
Europe: from Lissabon or Dublin in the West to Moscow in the East, and
from Helsinki in the North to Neapel in the South - Turkey, Greece and all
the new Balcan states unmentioned. Even the cited Dutch/Frisian newspaper
("Leeuwarder Courant") misspelled one of the quoted street names!



Probably the drivers are on a minimum level prepared for a basic knowledge
of Standard German, but not for EFLS ;-)...



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm


----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (06) [E/German]

Hm, if they would be consequent in Lower Saxony in renaming difficult-to-be-
pronounced-place-names into easier-to-be-pronounced-place-names they should
start with Braunschweig and give it its old Low Saxon name Brunswik back,
certainly for anyone, whether German, Low Saxon or a speaker of any other
language, much easier to pronounce.....or Moenchengladbach to Glabeek or
what about Schleswig-Holstein to the much more simple Sleswig-Holsten....you
name them!

Helge


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

I really don't know what the big deal is. Place names and, yes, street names
may vary from language to language, and on signs and maps they ought be
given in whatever are the locally or regionally official languages. Sure, in
some cases this will require trilingual labeling (e.g., Glasgow - Glesca -
Glaschu, Bredstedt - Bredsted - Braist, Trieste - Trst - Triest, Jaca -
Chaca - Jaka), in some cases even more (e.g, Nordfriesland - Noordfreesland
- Nordfraschl?nj - Nuurdfresklun - Nordfrisland). But so what?

I have a problem with people wanting to reduce the names of a place to only
one. This includes the decision to make Frysl?n the only name for that
province. I find that silly. Frysl?n is the Frisian name, Friesland the
Dutch name, and the capital is called Ljouwert in Frisian and Leeuwarden in
Dutch. Surely this doesn't threaten the Frisian language assertion movement.

Jonny's mention of place names above provides more example material:

English: Dublin
Irish: Baile ?tha Cliath

Portuguese: Lisboa
English: Lisbon
German: Lissabon

Neapolitan: N?pule
Italian: Napoli
English: Naples
German: Neapel

Many modern maps list only the version  in the respective national languages
(probably with exceptions such as "Dublin", usually with "Baile ?tha Cliath"
in smaller letters added, since Irish is officially the language of Ireland
but foreigners are not familiar with the Irish names).

Finland has no problem with bilingual (Finnish - Swedish) maps, including
street maps, as well as street signs. Add Sami versions ones in the north of
the country and in Norwegian Lappland (e.g. Koutokeino - Guovdageaidnu ?
Kautokeino, Sodankyl? ? Soa?egilli ? Su?'?jel, Karasjok ? K?r??johka ?
Kaarasjoki, Nesseby ? Unj?rga - Uuniemi). (But I am disappointed to find
on-line representation of Rovaniemi and Finnish Lappland in Finnish and and
foreign languages only, not in Swedish and Sami.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 17:28:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:28:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.DEC.2008.092835.0800.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (03) [E]

Re streetnames in Ofr., Ron you write

But so what?


Ron, I am somewhat surprised by the stance you are taking there
Greetings Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

I don't know what to make of your vague statement above, Mike.

I was saying that I advocate representation of *all* languages recognized
within a given locale. Of course, this presumes that all regional language
be indeed recognized. Personally I am appalled for instance by the
nationalists of Carinthia that keep removing or defacing place and street
signs with Slovenian names next to German ones.

Furthermore, I personally accept the fact that certain places have different
names in different languages, and this includes foreign languages. I would
find it quite silly if we had to switch to "Suomi" from "Finland", to
"Moskva" from "Moscow", to "K?benhavn" from "Copenhagen", to "Bod" or "B?"
from "Tibet" (which China wants us to call "Xizang"), to "Nihon" from
"Japan", to "Zhongguo" from "China", to "Chos?n" from "North Korea", to
"Hanguk" from "South Korea", to "Deutschland" from "Germany", to "Praha"
from "Prague", to "?esk? republika" from "Czech Republic", to "Magyarorsz?g"
from "Hungary" and so forth. These are examples in English only. There are
similar ones in other languages.

I don't know why this should be surprising, since it has nothing to do with
support for or opposition against fair language representation.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 22:06:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:06:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (05) [E]
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (06) [E/German]

Beste Marcus,



you wrote:



Okay, Hockereestraat was kind of (I am not even sure this is the right
spelling, it's a relatively new commercial area and not yet in any
directories and not visible on Google Maps for example. In the press it was
spelled H?kereestraat sometimes).



Yes, I fully agree. This seems to be a stumbling block.

The same thing I often have to experience with my own address: 'Dingw?rden'
(meaning 'a terp where people meet for their council', literal a 'place to
think', probably from OS 'thenkian') mostly becomes something like
'Dink-W?rden' or 'Denkw?rden' ;-)!



If this kind of commerce would be settling there, I could hardly understand,
why the names should pose problems, cause they would mostly have regional
customers and regional suppliers.

I don't fully agree at *this* point. The greater part of East-Frisia is a
region of extreme low oeconomical structure. They still have got the
reputation of being 'behind the moon', and so we have to understand and to
endorse all of their efforts to take part in globalizing.



PS: You too mentioned the move to Frisian names. Actually I am not a friend
of such moves. I am all supporting the move to fully recognize Frisian and
give it all the same rights, but that should not mean to abolish the Dutch
name. It's okay to write both names on the town signs or even to write the
Frisian name in big letters and the Dutch name in small, and it's okay to
write official documents in Frisian. But the Dutch name shouldn't be erased.
Why can't towns have two official names? One Frisian, one Dutch? "Official"
doesn't mean "only one".

I wonder why we yet didn't hear any opinion from our Western neighbours.

Though this affair shouldn't be our business but a Dutch one only I dare to
write that I by and large agree with you again.

Where would it lead to if the Frisians over there really stop to aspect
Dutch as their first and official language? Perhaps next generation children
just able to speak a poor Standard Dutch? I just remember the words of an
elder East-Frisian collegue who often used to say 'Skall niags ?berdreben
waorn' ('nothing should be overdone'), or, with the words of another friend
from the Lower Rhine area 'Allet, wat met *zu* anf?ngt, is' nit jut'
('everything starting with *too* isn't good').



Allerbest; have a nice weekend!



Jonny Meibohm



PS: Just as you try to stir fears of invented Low Laxon. I don't know no
single example of "re-invented" Low Saxon names. Please give examples.

I like to stir - both in people's minds as well as in a good 'Kehdinger
Hochzeits-Suppe' (a regional recipe of a soup from ox meat - cooked from
minimum one pound meat for each person!) ;-)!

But these really *are* my fears! Just remember 'L?ttensee' vs.
'L?tjensee'. Ein Schildb?rger-Verhalten, welches die ganze plattdeutsche
Sache doch nur ins L?cherliche zieht! (A behavior of fools suited to make
the matter of our Low Saxon ridiculous!)

DS
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 12 22:09:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:09:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.DEC.2008.140941.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Ron,



I was saying that I advocate representation of *all* languages recognized
within a given locale. Of course, this presumes that all regional language
be indeed recognized.



Quite logical...on paper, that is. In a static, local situation.



Here in Belgium, where traffic is dense and quite often transit, drivers can
easily get confused. One second, you're heading for Lille (big city in
Northern France), the next moment nothing but "Rijsel" on every
signpost...then Lille again. Or you think you're really driving to Aachen
(in Germany), but all of a sudden it seems you're wrong 'cause all you can
see is "Aix-la-Chappelle".



Now, on a highway, this isn't sooo bad, 'cause you usually have enough time
to figure out what's going on. If you're on ring road around a big city,
it's much more difficult (and dangerous!) to put too much information on a
signpost. Bear in mind that in Belgium, on a ring road, the distance between
two exits is usually very small. If you then overload every signpost with
redundant information, this will only confuse a foreign driver. Moreover,
the ring road of Brussels (R0) is partly Flemish, partly Walloonian and
partly Brussels territory. So if we want to be good students, we'd have to
label everything in Dutch, French and even Brussels dialect. Maybe even in
German, as it is also an official language in Belgium. But not in English, I
guess. Come on, we'd end up with signposts twice as high as those for Mac
Donalds *s*.



I advocate a different (European) rule for international traffic (that does
not take local sensitivities into account). Once, you're off the highway,
it's a totally different matter.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 13 19:01:01 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:01:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.12 (01) [LS/German]
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From: "Klaus-Werner Kahl" <kwkahl at plattdeutsch.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Liebe Plattdeutschfreunde,

heute ist mein plattdeutsches Lexikon erschienen. Es ist mit rund 1.650
farbigen Bildern ausgestattet und beschreibt vor allem das M?nsterland mit
seiner Geschichte, seinen Kirchspielen, D?rfern und St?dten, seinen
Sehensw?rdigkeiten, seinen Tieren und Pflanzen sowie gro?en S?hnen und
T?chtern. Dar?ber hinaus werden auch Dinge aus dem Alltag vergangener Zeiten
und der heutigen Zeit vorgestellt.
Das Naokieksel ist das einzige in seiner Art und durchgehend in
plattdeutscher Sprache geschrieben. Die Abschnitte ?ber mehr als 1.300
Begriffe sind, wenn eben m?glich, mit Bildern angereichert. Wie hei?t es
doch so sch?n: ?Ein Bild sagt mehr als tausend Worte!"

Laiwe Platd??tskfr?nde,

vandage is mien platd??tsk Naokieksel ruutku?men. Et is met 1.650 farwige
Beller uutstaffeert un beschriw besunners dat M?nsterland met sine
Geschicht, sine Ki?rspels, D??rper un Sti?den, met dat Bekikensw?de, sine
Diers un Planten un graute S??ns un D?chter. Buomdrup w?ert auk Saken uut
d?n Oldag uut v?li?dene Titen un de nie Tiet v??rstelt.
Dat Naokieksel is dat ensigste in sine Wise un van v??rn bes ?chten in Plat
schri?wen. De P?kskes ??wer m?er ?s dusenddraihunnert W??der sint, wan't
i?ben g?ng, met Beller riker maakt. Wu h?t et j? so sch??n: ?Een Beld s?g
m?er ?s dusend W??der!"

Gu?tgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best!

Dr. Klaus-Werner Kahl
Bornholtstra?e 20
48477 Riesenbeck

www.plattdeutsch.net/platt/naokieksel.html
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 13 19:18:15 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:18:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.DEC.2008.111815.0800.>

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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (06) [E]

Dear Luc, Ron and the rest,



Please use truly international route numbers, instead of names



Jorge Potter

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at gmail.com>
wrote:

Here in Belgium, where traffic is dense and quite often transit, drivers can
easily get confused. One second, you're heading for Lille (big city in
Northern France), the next moment nothing but "Rijsel" on every
signpost...then Lille again. Or you think you're really driving to Aachen
(in Germany), but all of a sudden it seems you're wrong 'cause all you can
see is "Aix-la-Chappelle".

Now, on a highway, this isn't sooo bad, 'cause you usually have enough time
to figure out what's going on. If you're on ring road around a big city,
it's much more difficult (and dangerous!) to put too much information on a
signpost. Bear in mind that in Belgium, on a ring road, the distance between
two exits is usually very small. If you then overload every signpost with
redundant information, this will only confuse a foreign driver. Moreover,
the ring road of Brussels (R0) is partly Flemish, partly Walloonian and
partly Brussels territory. So if we want to be good students, we'd have to
label everything in Dutch, French and even Brussels dialect. Maybe even in
German, as it is also an official language in Belgium. But not in English, I
guess. Come on, we'd end up with signposts twice as high as those for Mac
Donalds *s*.

I advocate a different (European) rule for international traffic (that does
not take local sensitivities into account). Once, you're off the highway,
it's a totally different matter.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (02) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,
Jonny informed us:
"The community of *'Gro?efehn'* in East Friesland/Germany decided to change
some Low Saxon street names *within a new commercial area* of their village
into Standard German because they experienced that customers and drivers of
any delivery services, who don't speak LS, have difficulties to find their
addressees. By the scandalised leader of the German 'Frisian Party' this
step is suspected to be against the spirit of the times - in other regions
of Northern Germany people try to add, sometimes to re-invent the Low Saxon
names of their locations."
This news revolts me!!
As it does revolt Paul who writes.
"What on Earth has speaking a language got to do with finding a street?!"

Who would support a collection of signatures
inside LLL and beyond?
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (05) [E]

I have come across such re-invented pseudo-plattdeutsch names several times
here around Hamborg; the names are often misspelled, but most times created
out of good will and a wish to cling to tradition. Sometimes authentic old
names are partly brought into high german, such as Moorrege
http://www.amt-moorrege.de/, which should be "Moorreeg". A sorry business
:-)



Season's greetings!



Marlou

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.11 (06) [E/German]

PS: Just as you try to stir fears of invented Low Laxon. I don't know no
single example of "re-invented" Low Saxon names. Please give examples.

I like to stir - both in people's minds as well as in a good 'Kehdinger
Hochzeits-Suppe' (a regional recipe of a soup from ox meat - cooked from
minimum one pound meat for each person!) ;-)!

But these really *are* my fears! Just remember 'L?ttensee' vs. 'L?tjensee'. Ein
Schildb?rger-Verhalten, welches die ganze plattdeutsche Sache doch nur ins
L?cherliche zieht! (A behavior of fools suited to make the matter of our Low
Saxon ridiculous!)
DS


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Marlou!

You may be right in saying that "Moorrege" is a made-up name. But please
bear in mind that *Rege* (*reyge*) is in fact the earlier form of modern *
Reeg'* (*reyg'*) 'row' and that in many or most dialects *-e* deletion had
not yet occurred at the beginning of German language power encroachment in
the north. So, theoretically at least, the form "Moorrege" could have been
petrified as a Low Saxon loan in German.

This would be similar to the many Hamburg names that end with
*-twiete*'lane', which in Modern Low Saxon is
*Twiet*.

We have to be aware of the possibility of such names being *German*, not Low
Saxon, that they are early loans *from* Low Saxon.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (05) [E]

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de

>>



PS: Just as you try to stir fears of invented Low Laxon. I don't know no
single example of "re-invented" Low Saxon names. Please give examples.

I like to stir - both in people's minds as well as in a good 'Kehdinger
Hochzeits-Suppe' (a regional recipe of a soup from ox meat - cooked from
minimum one pound meat for each person!) ;-)!

But these really */are/* my fears! Just remember 'L?ttensee' vs. 'L?tjensee'.
Ein Schildb?rger-Verhalten, welches die ganze plattdeutsche Sache doch nur
ins L?cherliche zieht! (A behavior of fools suited to make the matter of our
Low Saxon ridiculous!)

DS

But that's not an example of anything "invented". Low Saxon developed,
German conserves an outdated version of the former Low Saxon name.

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 13 21:23:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:23:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.DEC.2008.132324.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

In part due to our Roger Thijs's answer to my call for attention to the
Romance languages of Southern Belgium and Northern France in our Anniversary
presentation (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/), there have been two
additions on the Walloon front.


   - Bernard Louis submitted a second Walloon translation:
   http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/walon2.php
   - Lucyin Mahin submitted an audio file for the first Walloon translation:
   http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/walon.php


Thanks to the two kind gentlemen and of course to our Roger for these
additions.

It would be great to have versions in Picard and in other Norman varieties.
Gallo would be lovely too.

Let's make an effort on the Anniversary presentation front before the next
anniversary in April and May!

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 14 19:55:20 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:55:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.DEC.2008.115520.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.12 (06) [E]

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics"
>
> I was saying that I advocate representation of all languages
> recognized within a given locale. Of course, this presumes that all
> regional language be indeed recognized.

> Quite logical...on paper, that is. In a static, local situation.

It can get bad in Scotland where, for example, you see streets called
"Baxter's Loan" being quietly changed by whoever does those things into
"Baker's Lane". This happens whether you can drive up the road or not.

Meanwhile in Whitby, England, we have "The Baxtergate", "The
Flowergate", "Haggersgate" and so on, but nobody thinks of changing
these to, eg, "Baker Street" because in England it's all called English.

> Here in Belgium, where traffic is dense and quite often transit,
> drivers can easily get confused. One second, you're heading for Lille
> (big city in Northern France), the next moment nothing but "Rijsel" on
> every signpost...then Lille again. Or you think you're really driving
> to Aachen (in Germany), but all of a sudden it seems you're wrong
> 'cause all you can see is "Aix-la-Chappelle".

For larger place names at least, I don't see why this can't be solved.
Suppose we had simple line-drawing icon for each town? Then it would
matter less to the driver if the town name became unrecognisable, as
long as the same icon was always displayed alongside it.

This system is already used for temporary diversion signs or fairs,
conferences and suchlike, eg:

Diversion
For Lyme Regis follow (square)
For Melplash follow (triangle)
For Bridport follow (circle)

After which the icons are used in direction signs.

It's not a perfect system but it's good backup and economical on
signage.

I have to say that signposting, at least in the UK, can be bad enough
that you can have this sort of problem without extra languages. You can
turn off the M18 for Doncaster and then the only signs you can find
point to Selby, Goole and Hull. You can only find Bishopbrigs from
central Glasgow in the winter because the branch of a tree hides the
sign at a crucial junction the other three seasons of the year. In
Glasgow if you want to get to somewhere in the north you might as well
be in France as on the south side of the river. All you can to is look
for the Tunnel.

Once I tried to take a shortcut in North Yorkshire and ended up driving
around a group of villages for an hour, that only had signs pointing to
each other. Hello? Doncaster? York? Leeds? Anywhere?

And ring roads! Don't get me started!  :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 14 20:04:00 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:04:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.14 (02) [LS/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.DEC.2008.120400.0800.>

==========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 December 2008 - Volume 02
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.12 (01) [LS/German]

Beste Klaus-Werner,

Ik hebbe de webbestae besocht, dien book s??t der echt good uut!
K??nne wi dat ok bestellen vanuut Nederland? Ik bin wal interesseerd
in dat wark.

Met de beste gr??te

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

From: "Klaus-Werner Kahl" <kwkahl at plattdeutsch.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Liebe Plattdeutschfreunde,

heute ist mein plattdeutsches Lexikon erschienen. Es ist mit rund 1.650
farbigen Bildern ausgestattet und beschreibt vor allem das M??nsterland mit
seiner Geschichte, seinen Kirchspielen, D??rfern und St??dten, seinen
Sehensw??rdigkeiten, seinen Tieren und Pflanzen sowie gro??en S??hnen und
T??chtern. Dar??ber hinaus werden auch Dinge aus dem Alltag vergangener
Zeiten
und der heutigen Zeit vorgestellt.
Das Naokieksel ist das einzige in seiner Art und durchgehend in
plattdeutscher Sprache geschrieben. Die Abschnitte ??ber mehr als 1.300
Begriffe sind, wenn eben m??glich, mit Bildern angereichert. Wie hei??t es
doch so sch??n: ???Ein Bild sagt mehr als tausend Worte!"

Laiwe Platd????tskfr??nde,

vandage is mien platd????tsk Naokieksel ruutku??men. Et is met 1.650 farwige
Beller uutstaffeert un beschriw besunners dat M??nsterland met sine
Geschicht, sine Ki??rspels, D????rper un Sti??den, met dat Bekikensw??de,
sine
Diers un Planten un graute S????ns un D??chter. Buomdrup w??ert auk Saken
uut
d??n Oldag uut v??li??dene Titen un de nie Tiet v????rstelt.
Dat Naokieksel is dat ensigste in sine Wise un van v????rn bes ??chten in
Plat
schri??wen. De P??kskes ????wer m??er ??s dusenddraihunnert W????der sint,
wan't
i??ben g??ng, met Beller riker maakt. Wu h??t et j?? so sch????n: ???Een
Beld s??g
m??er ??s dusend W????der!"

Gu??tgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best!

Dr. Klaus-Werner Kahl
Bornholtstra??e 20
48477 Riesenbeck

www.plattdeutsch.net/platt/naokieksel.html
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 02:08:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:08:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.14 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.DEC.2008.180818.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 December 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.12 (02) [E]

Hi LLs,
Thanks, Ron, learnt something new (reeg vs. rege, twiet vs. twiete).
In general: If indigenous names are re-invented with wrong spelling,
doesn't this point to just one thing: the general decline of our indigenous
languages? I'd rather see a wrongly spelled name than none at all.
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Mike, Lowlanders!

Well, I don't see anything wrong or misspelled here, assuming that Low Saxon
names got petrified in their older forms when they became loans in German.

Misspelling came in when the Sass clique started respelling things in such a
way that words resembled their German cognates, in order to make written Low
Saxon look as German as possible. Among other horrible things, this led to
the spelling *Rehg* (because of the German cognate *Reihe*) 'row'. Ouch!

On an etymological note, *Twiet(e)* appears to belong to the "two" group of
words, probably because it denotes a lane or rather an alley that connects
two streets. I assume that the word is thus best translated as "close"
within Scottish contexts.

Some streets in Greater Hamburg seem to have retained their Low Saxon names
as their only names, and in many cases it is impossible to tell if they are
old, unless you study historical records. For instance, in Neuhof
(*Neehoff*in Low Saxon) there is a small street called Ole Karkhoff
(which would be
*Alter Kirchhof or *Alter Friedhof in German, "Old Churchyard"). At the Elbe
bank in Kirchdorf (Karkd?rp) you find Finkenriek which in German would have
to be **Finkenreich* "Finches' Realm".

Many names are mixtures. For instance, there is Ellernholzdamm which I
assume is derived from Low Saxon Ellernholtdamm* *"Alder Wood Dam" which
should be Erlenholzdamm in German. Then there is Hohe Schaar which must come
from *Hoge Schaar "High Foreshore" which ought to be **Hohes Vorland* in
German, but I assume that *Schaar* came to be used as a loanword in local
German. People may not even have made a connection between *Schaar* and *
Vorland*. And then there are all those names with *-brook*. Low Saxon *Brook
* (*brouk*) denotes meadow land along a stream. For instance, there is
Grasbrook with no German version. The German cognate of *Brook* is *Bruch*,
and this word can be used in the same way, as it is in local names like
Hausbruch (which would have to be *Huusbrook in Low Saxon). And there is the
nature preserve with the German name Zollenspieker, which ought to be
*Z?llenspeicher in German and *Tollenspieker in Low Saxon ("tolls
store(house)").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 16:22:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:22:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.15 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.082207.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 December 2008 - Volume 01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.14 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>


Subject: Language politics

Misspelling came in when the Sass clique started respelling things in such a
way that words resembled their German cognates, in order to make written Low
Saxon look as German as possible. Among other horrible things, this led to
the spelling /Rehg/ (because of the German cognate /Reihe/) 'row'. Ouch!

Nu warrst du unreell. "Rehg" is veel ?ller as Sass. Kummt to'n Bispeel al
1854 in Raabe sien 'Allgemeines plattdeutsches Volksbuch' v?r. Mi gefallt de
Schrievwies 'Rehg' ok nich. D?cht mi nich bes?nners klook (dat 'h' in
'Reihe' is ja etymoloogsch verwandt mit dat 'g' in 'Reeg' un dat 'w' in
'row'). 'Rehg' is keen 'misspelling'. Dat is h??chstens en 'unwitty
spelling'. Sass gefallt dat 'h' allerdings ok nich un bi Sass is 'Reeg'
vertekent. Sass hett denn ok nix "respelt" dat dat "as German as possible"
uts?ht. He hett blot de Schrievregeln, de dat ok v?rher al geven harr, en
beten op Reeg br?cht un 'normaliseert'. De L??d hebbt ok al v?r Sass na
hoochd??tsche Schrievregeln schreven. He harr ok nich "as German as
possible" in'n Sinn. He harr "as recognizable as possible for people
educated in German-only schools" in'n Sinn.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.14 (01) [E]

On street and road names
Hi LLs,
Introducing a radically global system using numbers only.
The American have gone pretty far. Transferred to Europe,
 the axis Warsaw-Posen-Berlin-Hanover-
Arnheim-Den Haag would be indicated
E1E or E1W.-----  Done.
With streets running east-west and avenues north-south,all being numbered,
one can pinpoit an address on a map without ever having been there.
Good system? Practical yes, easy to use, yes,maybe applicable to
Hanover and London, but to Monschau and Maastricht?
Just a thought by Michael Wintzer
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 16:25:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:25:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.15 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.082521.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.13.14 (03) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote:  "On an etymological note, *Twiet(e)* appears to belong
to the "two" group of words, probably because it denotes a lane or rather an
alley that connects two streets. I assume that the word is thus best
translated as "close" within Scottish contexts."

As in "twitten" [not sure about spelling as I've only heard it being said ]
- which my mother used as a young girl in Norfolk for a small (covered) way
between houses usually leading to houses in a courtyard at the back.

Worcester still has a number of these in its one remaining medieval street ,
as does Tewkesbury. In Worcester they are usually known as XXX Alley ; not
sure of the Tewkesbury term.

best wishes

Heather

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 16:27:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:27:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.12.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.082707.0800.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.13.14 (02) [LS/German]

HELP Lowlanders-
There are smart LLs and dum LLs
I belong to the latter group, in that
I have studied UTF-8 for years, and
know all about ist, but NOWHERE
do I find an instruction how to apply it
to my computer. There are instructions
for example to load from THE dropdown
menu, but the menu remains elusive.
Help Please.
Thanks, Mike Wintzer

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 19:36:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:36:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.113623.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.15 (01) [E/LS]

Dear LLs

Marcus schreef:

Nu warrst du unreell. "Rehg" is veel ?ller as Sass. Kummt to'n Bispeel al
1854 in Raabe sien 'Allgemeines plattdeutsches Volksbuch' v?r. Mi gefallt de
Schrievwies 'Rehg' ok nich. D?cht mi nich bes?nners klook (dat 'h' in
'Reihe' is ja etymoloogsch verwandt mit dat 'g' in 'Reeg' un dat 'w' in
'row'). 'Rehg' is keen 'misspelling'. Dat is h??chstens en 'unwitty
spelling'. Sass gefallt dat 'h' allerdings ok nich un bi Sass is 'Reeg'
vertekent. Sass hett denn ok nix "respelt" dat dat "as German as possible"
uts?ht. He hett blot de Schrievregeln, de dat ok v?rher al geven harr, en
beten op Reeg br?cht un 'normaliseert'. De L??d hebbt ok al v?r Sass na
hoochd??tsche Schrievregeln schreven. He harr ok nich "as German as
possible" in'n Sinn. He harr "as recognizable as possible for people
educated in German-only schools" in'n Sinn

Al weer wat tauliert, Marcus.

Ron, you remember, my thinking was more orthodox than yours, wanting to see
your Hanse-based orthography intoduced.

Over the years I have become more pragmatic. By no means should we make this
a Glaubenskrieg,

but continue Ron, Marc et al. to sort out the facts, all the facts.

Gratefully, Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

*Glaubenskrieg?* Absolutely not, at least not as far as I am concerned. It
seems you read too much into my efforts, Mike, when I was going no farther
than thinking about an auxiliary system to make up for the inadequacies of
the Sass system as it is widely used for the northern dialects.

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   - is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
   diacritics,
   - is easy to learn,
   - does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   - represents *all* phonemes.


Sass did not pick his system out of thin air. He took several things from
predecessors such as Rabe. But it is *he* who is commonly credited with this
because he tried to synthesize and regularize the *system* and others
followed him, which is why we are talking about the "Sass System" or Sass
Guidelines". This is what I was referring to before Marcus threw me the Rabe
curve ball.

Sass made quite clear that where accuracy is required an *ogonek* be used
underneath an "e" ~ "ee" ~ "eh" and "?" ~ "?" ~ "?h" to mark them as long
monophthongs and thus distinguish them from their unmarked equivelents that
stand for diphthongs.

Sass or one of his followers said that this is not necessary in the case of
"o" ~ "oo" ~ "oh" since in most dialects monophthongs and diphthongs have
been leveled to become diphthongs. However, the difference does remain in
quite a few dialects, and the "ou" diphthong in those corresponds to the
"au" diphthong in other dialects, such as those of Mecklenburg (as in *tau
liehrt*).

Somewhere along the line, "?" ~ "??" ~ "?h" came to be used as an
alternative for "e"-*ogonek* and "?" ~ "?h" as an alternative for "?"-*
ogonek*, since this is typologically easier. This is what the *New
Sass*people did, and I applaud them for having made the effort to
distinguish
monophthongs and dipthongs, as behooves all authors of dictionaries and
textbooks. It is these people and authors of linguistic literature that no
doubt Sass had in mind when he "prescribed" use of the *ogonek*.

Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
distinguished everywhere. At a minimum, they must be distinguished in
reference and teaching material.

The use of the German *Dehnungs-H* is becoming less and less controversial
as more and more people agree that it's kind of silly and certainly
redundant.

Likewise redundant and linguistically untenable is the Sass tradition of
representing final devoicing where and only where German spelling shows a
final voiceless consonant; e.g.

wide: *wiet* vs *wiede ...* (because of German *weit* vs *weite ...*)
but ...
dress: *Kleed* vs *Kleder (*because of German *Kleid* vs *Kleider*)

My point is that the choice of letters is not so important, but that proper
and consistent distinction of phonemes is very important. If the "official"
system does not properly distinguish them, then it must be *made* to do so,
or else an auxiliary system needs to be employed that does properly
represent phonemic structure.

What bothers me about the Sass system as it is *popularly* used (i.e. the
watered-down version) is that on the one hand it lacks necessary
distinctions and on the other hand it dictates unnecessary fluff such as the
*Dehnungs-H* and selective representation of final devoicing (which is a
phonetic detail and thus doesn't belong into a writing system other than a
phonetic one). In any case, the aim to make it look as German as possible
seems to override the need for consistency and integrity, and this seems
like a shaky foundation to me, as well as a disservice to learners, to say
the least.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 20:14:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:14:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.121421.0800.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.15 (02) [E]

There is a Twitten in Blaby in Leicestershire



Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

"Twitten" is listed in the English Wikipedia:

*Twitten* is an old dialect <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect> word,
used in both East <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Sussex> and West
Sussex<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Sussex>,
for a path or alleyway <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley>, which is still
in common use.[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitten#cite_note-0> The
word is also in common use in the London residential area known as Hampstead
Garden Suburb.

Elsewhere in the country, such alleyways are termed
*chares<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chare>
* (north-east England <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-east_England>), *
opes* (Plymouth), *jiggers* (Liverpool<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool>)
and *snickelways <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickelways>*
(York<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York>
).

For "chare" read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chare

For "snickelway" read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickelways

The picture of the snickelway you see there might as well be that of a *
Twiete* in old-time Hamburg.

I assume that "snickel" started off as a frequentive form of a cognate of
"sneak".

The German Wikipedia mentions "Twiete":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twiete

Not all that many true "Twieten" are left in Hamburg. Many have retained the
name but have become "proper" streets, and others were destroyed during WWII
carpet bombing.

Please let me emphasize that "Twieten" are not exclusive to Hamburg. They
can be found in much of Sleswig-Holstein, Lower Saxony and in parts of the
Westphalian area as well. I am not sure about other regions.

"Twete" (*tweyte*) is an alternative form.

Here you can see the closed-in entrance to a "Twiete" from a street:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3092/2593126814_f5df5e481c.jpg?v=0

Most of them are no longer closed in but have been made into
pedestrians-only alleyways; e.g.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/2593127170_a5591498de.jpg?v=0

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 15 23:29:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:29:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.15.DEC.2008.152919.0800.>

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (04) [E/LS]

Dear Ron,

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   - is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
   diacritics,
   - is easy to learn,
   - does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   - represents *all* phonemes.

Well, what you also need is that it gets acceptance. Any change will
probably fail due to lack of acceptance, especially when a new system is far
away from what people already use. They would just say "Dissen neemoodschen
Kraam kann ik nich lesen." And thats it.

Sass made quite clear that where accuracy is required an *ogonek* be used
underneath an "e" ~ "ee" ~ "eh" and "?" ~ "?" ~ "?h" to mark them as long
monophthongs and thus distinguish them from their unmarked equivelents that
stand for diphthongs.

Well, it might have been nice to retain such a distinction. Actually I have
talked with Hein Thies (the author of the current Sass dictionary) about
that. His statement simply was: after decades of trying to teach people to
make a distinction they have finally given up. No one was willing to use the
ogoneks. The only thing they now do is to list alternative forms in brackets
like in
1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (D??l): Diele
where the lack of the brackets in 1 indicates that the e is "zweit?nig)
or
1) ?wer: ?ber
2) ?ver (Euver): Ufer
where the lack of brackets in 1 indicates that the ? is "eint?nig". And
that's all. More has not been possible. Blame it on the North German
"Dickk?pp", but you should better accept that or you will end up like Don
Quichotte fighting against windmills with eint?nig and zweit?nig wings. Good
luck.

Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
distinguished everywhere. At a minimum, they must be distinguished in
reference and teaching material.

Well, the Sass does just that. Actually this system of indication is
mentioned under "Hinweise zur Aussprache" in the introduction.

The use of the German *Dehnungs-H* is becoming less and less controversial
as more and more people agree that it's kind of silly and certainly
redundant.

Likewise redundant and linguistically untenable is the Sass tradition of
representing final devoicing where and only where German spelling shows a
final voiceless consonant; e.g.

wide: *wiet* vs *wiede ...* (because of German *weit* vs *weite ...*)
but ...
dress: *Kleed* vs *Kleder (*because of German *Kleid* vs *Kleider*)

??? So what? It makes words more recognizable. Given the fact that most
people in North Germany know less Low Saxon than my 6-year old daughter,
this is highly neccessary.

What bothers me about the Sass system as it is *popularly* used (i.e. the
watered-down version) is that on the one hand it lacks necessary
distinctions and on the other hand it dictates unnecessary fluff such as the
*Dehnungs-H* and selective representation of final devoicing (which is a
phonetic detail and thus doesn't belong into a writing system other than a
phonetic one). In any case, the aim to make it look as German as possible
seems to override the need for consistency and integrity, and this seems
like a shaky foundation to me, as well as a disservice to learners, to say
the least.

How abowt teeching the English e propa sistem of raiting first, one that
aims for consistency and integrity, one that is not based on a way of
writing that became obsolete with the Tudor sound shift. Mait meyke lerning
English a lot esier for all the world. And good lack for teeching that
sistem in Scatland.



Kind regards,

Heiko

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

?anks, Heiko.

Well, the Sass does just that. Actually this system of indication is
mentioned under "Hinweise zur Aussprache" in the introduction.


Which is what I indicated in conjunction with pointing out that people don't
follow it.

??? So what? It makes words more recognizable. Given the fact that most
people in North Germany know less Low Saxon than my 6-year old daughter,
this is highly neccessary.


I can't believe you said "highly necessary" ?

??iing, s?t Nors Dsch?rm?ns ahr tuh damm tu diel wis a slait twieking of an
existing ?istem is ?atsch an oolt exkjus for duing nassing ebaut se
garbidsch!

For some reason people are not deemed too dumb to learn English, French,
Spanish, Russian or whatever, most importantly Dutch, complete with the
actual spelling of those languages. But for some reason (which may in part
be authors' and teachers' own shaky knowledge and proficiency) they are
considered too dumb to deal with a regularized version of the spelling of
the original language of their region. And they are considered too dumb to
"recognize words" without them being spelled non-phonemically to make them
look German. This is so lame and such a negative testament to the
intellectual acumen of the people! Why should they get spelling hints to
recognize words from a German perspective? Do they get such hints in Dutch,
which is similarly relatively closely related? To accommodate those
supposedly learning-challenged North Germans, should we spell *wijt* vs *
wijder* in Dutch like Low Saxon *wiet* vs *wieder* (when the proper phonemic
representations are *wijd* ~ *wijder* and *wied* ~ *wieder* respectively,
versus German *weit* vs *weiter*)? This is a total oddity among languages.

I strongly suspect that this double standard, this "special case" scenario
created for Low Saxon, goes back to people still not quite believing in its
status as a language in its own right. It pains me to see that even some
people that profess to be its champions buy into this reduced status. For
why else would people need to rely on constant reference to German in this
case and not in cases of other languages that people learn? It's a *different
language*. You don't know different languages by osmosis. You *learn* them,
and in the course of it you learn their spelling systems, whatever they may
be.

We are not talking about exotic new inventions here, just about slight
tweaking to regularize the existing spelling and to do the language justice.

I did say that the *New Sass* people at least made an effort by providing
explanatory forms in parenthesis, and I credited them gratefully.

How abowt teeching the English e propa sistem of raiting first, one that
aims for consistency and integrity, one that is not based on a way of
writing that became obsolete with the Tudor sound shift. Mait meyke lerning
English a lot esier for all the world. And good lack for teeching that
sistem in Scatland.


This seems like another curve ball. It has very little to do with the price
of tea in China. English orthography is another can of worms with its own
history, problems and arguments. At least, everyone recognizes and respects
English as a language in its own right, enough so to not want to take
orthographic hints from other languages to make English more understandable.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 15:26:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:26:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.072635.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (06) [E]

> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.15 (04) [E/LS]

> How abowt teeching the English e propa sistem of raiting first, one
> that aims for consistency and integrity, one that is not based on a
> way of writing that became obsolete with the Tudor sound shift. Mait
> meyke lerning English a lot esier for all the world. And good lack for
> teeching that sistem in Scatland.

I think that this illustrates one of the problems with English spelling
reform, as indeed any attempt at writing English more systematically
tends to do.

The thing is, we could never be in agreement about this because:

mait: I pronounce this diphthong differently and make the distinction
between, eg, "five" ("faiv") and "nine" ("nein") in English.

mayke: all vowels like this are pronounced as pure diphthongs in my
English.

Scatland: this flags your English as American in pronunciation for me.
There's no way left to spell, for example "cat" in my English, unless
you want to make it "caht" or something.

Of course there are many semi-regular and irregular differences between
American and English English that would be difficult to cover in one
spelling, for example, "serehnity" (American), "sereenity" (English),
garahdge/gahridge and so on.

Then Scottish English brings a whole new set of problems, for example,
as a Scottish speaker of English I would need the distinction between
the vowels in "five" and "nine", and between "w" and "wh", I would want
most of my vowels pure and I need a clear spelling of the letter "r"
independent of the surrounding vowels (so Shavian is completely
impossible for me to write unless I learn a whole new dialect of
English).

I think that in its expansion English has perhaps reached a point of no
return where it's only held together as one language by the common
orthography bolstered by a vast literature and a widespread familiarity
with accents other than ones own due to the film and TV industries.
There seems to be no way to spell it so that it can be written by all
native English speakers without it making even less sense to a large
fraction of them.

I'm not saying some reforms wouldn't be possible, such as the abolition
of "gh" and suchlike. But it can only be taken so far.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:29:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (02) [E]
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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Deaf History Scotland

I thought this might interest some on this list.

Best wishes,

Pat

From:  Iain Hutchison, iain at KEAPUB.FSNET.CO.UK

Deaf History Scotland was formed at a public meeting in October 2008 in
Glasgow, with committee members from across Scotland. The new organisation
is finding its feet but has already produced a website at:
www.deafhistoryscotland.org.uk

More information can be had from the secretary, Dr Ronnie Scott, e-mail:
rscott at deafhistoryscotland.org.uk.

Iain

?

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:02:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.17 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.080237.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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===========================================
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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (02) [E]

Recently I often receive the same LLL mail twice, I was wondering if this
was a glitch with my provider or if everyone is having this? F.ex. now I had
3 new LL mails, but the last 2 ones were completely identical.
Greetings, Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mailings

That's odd, Diederik.

For what it's worth, I am subscribed myself, mostly in order to check on the
transmission of mailings, and I've been getting only one copy each.

I checked and found that you are subscribed only once. You might want to
check with your supplier. Perhaps they have a system where mail is
redelivered if there has been a "stutter" in the delivery system.

Once in a while it happens that people get duplicates because they actually
subscribed twice, different addresses, and then they automatically reroute
mail from one to another address. Later they forget they did that and wonder
why they are getting duplicates. (Some people keep a number of e-mail
addresses.) But, as I said, that happens rarely.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 16:52:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:52:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.085218.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 December 2008 - Volume 04
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

Franz Firla, who used to be a subscriber (
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/franz.php), recently published a book
about and in the Low Frankish dialects of his area in and around M?lheim on
Ruhr.

Please find some information about it b elow.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

*Anschrift des Autors:*

Franz Firla, Lindenhof 23b, 45481 M?lheim an der Ruhr, Tel. 0208/483073



*Neuerscheinung!*



Franz Firla: *RuSaKeWe*



Alte und neue Texte in den Mundarten der unteren Ruhr

bei Ruhrort, Saarn, Kettwig und Werden ? Mit W?rterlisten Platt-Hochdeutsch



-         Erscheinungdatum:  18.10.08

-         bei  Hilberath &Lange (Hrsg.) in M?lheim-Saarn

-         ISBN: 978-3-00-026083-4

-         Preis: ? 12,80



A. Zum Buch



Mundarttexte aus vier verschiedenen Orten in einem einzigen Band anzubieten,
ist nicht nur f?r die Dialekt - Region der unteren Ruhr eine ungew?hnliche
Neuheit.  Wenn man jedoch den R?ckgang der Mundart allgemein betrachtet,
wird das Ziel der Pflege und Bewahrung der Ortsdialekte in Zukunft nur durch
?ber?rtliche gemeinsame Anstrengung zu leisten sein. Hierzu wollen Franz
Firla und die Buchhandlung Hilberath & Lange mit diesem  Band einen Beitrag
leisten.

 ?*?ber Ihren Brief und Ihre Initiative zur Sammlung von Mundarttexten des
unteren Ruhrtals habe ich mich gefreut und begl?ckw?nsche Sie zu diesem
Plan. Ich wei?, dass da ein gro?er Schatz begraben liegt, aber es wird nicht
leicht sein, ihn zu heben ?"* (Professor A. Mihm, Sprachwissenschaftler der
Uni Duisburg)

Der Autor verlie? sich bei der Bergung eines kleinen Teils dieses Schatzes
nicht allein auf die professionellen Dialektologen, sondern kn?pfte
pers?nliche Kontakte zu Mundartkennern in Ruhrort,  Saarn, Kettwig und
Werden (RuSaKeWe).

Es soll aber vor allen Dingen ein Lesebuch sein, bei dem sich die M?he des
?Entzifferns" mit Hilfe der sich jeweils anschlie?enden W?rterlisten lohnt,
weil man immer wieder ?berrascht wird  durch liebevoll-detaillierte
Beschreibung
eines verschwundenen Alltags, den bodenst?ndigen derben Witz und durch so
manche noch keineswegs veralterte Lebensweisheit. Ganz nebenbei wird
die  Zusammengeh?rigkeit
der niederfr?nkischen Dialekte von ?RuSaKeWe"
selbst erfahrbar.

Auf Anregung von Prof. Mihm erscheint im Anhang der komplette Bestand an
niederfr?nkischer Mundartliteratur in den Stadtarchiven von Duisburg,
M?lheim an der Ruhr und Essen. Damit werden weitere Nachforschungen der
Nutzer erheblich erleichtert.



B. Zum Autor:



Franz Firla (Jahrgang 1944) widmet einen  Teil seines Ruhestandes der
Erforschung und dem Erhalt der Volkskultur seiner Wahlheimat M?lheim an der
Ruhr. Anregungen, die er beim Stammtisch ?Aul Ssaan" bekam, veranlassten ihn
zun?chst, sich mit der Herkunft des Martinsliedes ?Ssinter M?tes V?gelschen"
?ber das bereits Bekannte hinaus zu besch?ftigen. Dabei wurde ihm deutlich,
welche historisch-kulturelle Bedeutung der niederfr?nkische Sprache bis in
unsere Region hinein zukommt.

Er ?bertrug m?lmsche Mundartliteratur aus der Deutschen Kurrentschrift und
machte damit Wilhelm Eichholz-Sengelmann aus Kettwig-Umstand erstmals in
M?lheim bekannt. Das Theaterst?ck ?Der F?hrmann" von Chird Hardering wurde
von ihm durch Abschrift aus einem alten Rollenbuch wieder in die
Pr?senzbibliothek  des M?lheimer Stadtarchivs ?berf?hrt. Handschriftliche
B?cher  des Saarner Plattautors Willi Beekes legte er erstmals in gedruckter
Form vor.

2003 richtete er im st?dtischen Internet die Mundartabteilung ein, die zu
den umfangreichsten ihrer Art geh?rt und regional wie ?berregional gerne
genutzt wird. Die ?M?lheimer Woche" regte er zu einer vierzehnt?gigen
Platt-Rubrik an, die er ?ber drei Jahre hinweg am Leben erhielt und die nun
vom VHS-Kurs ?Wir lernen M?lmsch Platt" fortgef?hrt wird. In seinem
W?rterbuch ?M?lmsche W??t", das u. a. in der Landesbibliothek D?sseldorf
steht, hat er inzwischen ?ber 8000 Begriffe gesammelt.

Praktisch bet?tigt er sich als Mundartsprecher bei Auftritten des Duos ?Jan
un Hinnerk", f?r die er zahlreiche Texte verfasste, und ist jedes Jahr als
Akkordeonspieler beim traditionellen ?Chrubbel-Chrabbel der
B?rgergesellschaft Mausefalle dabei.

Als freier Mitarbeiter zweier Tageszeitungen schreibt Franz Firla
humoristisch-satirische Gedichte und Glossen (Hochdeutsch!). 1999
ver?ffentlichte er das Gedichtb?ndchen ?Mein heiterster Ernst" und 2005 die
Glossensammlung ?Dann doch lieber einen B?gelfisch?".
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 19:06:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:06:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.110637.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 December 2008 - Volume 05
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (01) [E]

You'd also have to have spellings with medial and terminal "r"s for Scots
and Americans, and many southwest English, and different versions without
that sound for most other British, Australians and New Zealanders.



Personally I like relicts like "night" and "light" (and for some Scots,
they're not relics at all).  These words link us to our history and to other
Germanic languages.  It's much easier to see the connection between "dogter"
and "daughter" than with something like "doata".



We saw the situation in China, where the revised characters rendered many
older books almost unreadable to many new learners. Of course, when it was
introduced the Chinese Communist Party was keen to expunge the "Four Olds",
so that didn't matter, but I wouldn't want to see a similar thing in
English.



As for making it easier for foreigners to learn, I haven't noticed the
Greeks, Thais or Russians bending over backwards to make their writing more
accessible to me, nor should they.  The Germans have made revisions to what
I always thought was a pretty logical system anyway, but in any case they
did it for their benefit, not mine.



I suspect a lot of this difficulty with learning is a smokescreen for other
difficulties; are we going to change our irregular verbs and plurals too? (I
gived the mans some sheeps and gooses).



Nobody is holding a gun to the world community's head to speak English. OK,
we sort of did once, and our historical heirs seem keen to keep up the
tradition, but the rest of the world either threw us out or we left. The
world is free to adopt Klingon as the international language if they want
to.  And I've no idea how you spell that.



Paul

You'd also have to have spellings with medial and terminal "r"s for Scots
and Americans, and many southwest English, and different versions without
that sound for most other British, Australians and New Zealanders.



Personally I like relicts like "night" and "light" (and for some Scots,
they're not relics at all).  These words link us to our history and to other
Germanic languages.  It's much easier to see the connection between "dogter"
and "daughter" than with something like "doata".



We saw the situation in China, where the revised characters rendered many
older books almost unreadable to many new learners. Of course, when it was
introduced the Chinese Communist Party was keen to expunge the "Four Olds",
so that didn't matter, but I wouldn't want to see a similar thing in
English.



As for making it easier for foreigners to learn, I haven't noticed the
Greeks, Thais or Russians bending over backwards to make their writing more
accessible to me, nor should they.  The Germans have made revisions to what
I always thought was a pretty logical system anyway, but in any case they
did it for their benefit, not mine.



I suspect a lot of this difficulty with learning is a smokescreen for other
difficulties; are we going to change our irregular verbs and plurals too? (I
gived the mans some sheeps and gooses).



Nobody is holding a gun to the world community's head to speak English. OK,
we sort of did once, and our historical heirs seem keen to keep up the
tradition, but the rest of the world either threw us out or we left. The
world is free to adopt Klingon as the international language if they want
to.  And I've no idea how you spell that.



Paul

----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hi, Paul!

Not to detract or distract from your argument, let me just add that Greek
orthography was in fact officially reformed in 1982. A single accent sign is
now being used in place of the old polytonic diacritics.

Please read here:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ellinika-info.php

Please compare the Wren text versions:

Monotonic (reformed) as originally supplied:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ellinika.php

Polytonic as "reconstructed" by yours truly:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ellinika2-utf.php
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ellinika2.php

However, reform did not include graphemic simplification of homophones, such
as *?*, *?*, *?*, *??*, *??* and *??* now being pronounced [i], *?*
and *??*now being pronounced [?] ([E]), and
*?* and *?* now being pronounced [?] ([O]).

An argument in favor of reforming is that Greek lost tonality and developed
a single stress system at the latest by the early Christian era (1st century
CE, within the Hellenistic era: 300 BCE ? 300 CE), and tonal diacritics
became meaningless and were considered an educational burden by many. There
is now a movement advocating reinstatement of tonal diacritics, the main
argument being that they are a part of the heritage and link today's Greek
with earlier forms. An argument against this is that the absence of tonal
diacritics does not change spelling to the degree of making older spelling
illegible, and those who wish to write earlier forms of Greek have plenty of
specialist resources to learn to do so.

This latter argument is also being used with regard to simplified versus
traditional characters for Chinese, except that many (though not most)
traditional characters are unrecognizable to those that learned only
simplified characters, and *vice versa*. However, nowadays many Mainland
Chinese, certainly better educated ones, teach themselves to read or even
write traditional characters (especially China's numerous calligraphers),
and traditional characters are more and more featured in publications as if
for decorative purposes. All this seems to indicate that there is widespread
private regret about simplification, though official opposition would be
problematic for obvious reasons. In my Chinese language program in Australia
we had to master both systems simultaneously. Many people, including
Chinese, find this very rigorous when I tell them this. Yes, we did have to
work extraordinarily hard and a good number of students fell by the wayside.
But it was certainly possible, and I am glad that I had this opportunity
that now turns out to have been a rare one. I feel equally "at home" in both
systems.

In the case of Mongolian, the traditional vertical (Uyghur) script was
replaced with a Cyrillic-based systems with the beginning of the communist
era in Mongolia and Kalmykia, not in Southern ("Inner") Mongolia (which is
under Chinese rule). Two or three generations did not learn the old system;
only specialists did. So the link with pre-communist-era literature has been
broken for the average person. Mongolia is now trying to reintroduce the old
system, but this proves to be problematic because the spelling is based on
the Mongolian language of the 12th and 13th centuries. It is excellent as an
inter-dialectical system, since pretty much all modern dialects are derived
from that earlier form. But it takes a lot of studying, especially for
writing purposes. In other words, the spelling of each and every word has to
be learned, which requires life-long learning for most people. It shares
this with the Tibetan and English systems.

The inter-variety utility of spelling systems oughtn't be undervalued. It
certainly is an option and may be found preferable to a system that
represents only a "high" dialect. This is not to say that only older systems
can be used inter-dialectically. Theoretically speaking, new systems can be
devised or older systems can be reformed for such a purpose. But such
proposals tend to be rejected and older systems tend to be preferred for
various reasons, including emotionally based ones.

Personally, I don't much care what systems are used as long as they have at
least some consistency and internal integrity. I do have a problem with
imposing a system onto a language (typically a minority language) from
another language (typically a power language) if such a system is not
suitable for the recipient language, in other words, has not be adapted to
the recipient language to properly represent its native structure. And there
is the additional symbolic aspect of treating minority languages as though
they were dialects or appendages of the respective power languages.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 20:12:27 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:12:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.121227.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 December 2008 - Volume 06
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.17 (04) [E]

Where can we find a *Leseprobe*?
Mike Wintzer
  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

Franz Firla, who used to be a subscriber (
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/franz.php), recently published a book
about and in the Low Frankish dialects of his area in and around M?lheim on
Ruhr.

Please find some information about it b elow.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources


Mike,

I suggest you write to Franz Firla: <firla-franz at web.de>

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 17 22:47:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:47:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.17.DEC.2008.144758.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
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 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 December 2008 - Volume 07
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (05) [E]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates<wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (01) [E]
>

> Personally I like relicts like "night" and "light" (and for some
> Scots, they're not relics at all).

This depends what you mean, of course.

In speaking English, Scots don't use the guttural "gh" (though we do use
it when it's written "ch" being a direct borrowing from Scots (usually
ultimately from Gaelic): loch, Buchanan, Auchtermuchty &c.

I personally, for example, will say "nicht", "richt", "flicht", "sicht",
"fecht" &c when speaking Scots, but "nite", "rite" &c when speaking
Scottish English.

So in an English spelling context, the "gh" isn't required for Scottish
English, though it is required for Scots.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 18 22:05:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:05:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.18.DEC.2008.140553.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 December 2008 - Volume 01
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 From: f.vanbrederode at home.nl
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.17 (03) [E]

 Diederik Masure wrote:
Recently I often receive the same LLL mail twice, I was wondering if this
was a glitch with my provider or if everyone is having this? F.ex. now I had
3 new LL mails, but the last 2 ones were completely identical.

Greetings, Diederik


Ron you answered that this is an odd situation. Well as a matter of fact it
so happens that I also receive LL mails twice now and than, There does not
seem to be a rule. Just this one: it's always LL mails. It does not bother
me, but since the question was raised?..
Groetjes,
Fred [van Brederode]


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mailings

Thanks a lot, Fred.

All I can think of is that it's some sort of stutter in the workings of the
list server. I know that occasionally, also in ordinary e-mail, one gets an
automated message saying that a sent message has not been delivered due to
problems at the receiving end. When I send my message again the recipient
tells me that he or she got it the first time. So I imagine that something
like that is at play, and the list server is extra eager.

If this is a real, widespread problem I will have to bring it up with the
folks at LINGUIST.

By the way, folks, some of you apparently beat their heads against the wall
trying to change their subscription configurations, typically changing it to
digest mode or to "no-mail" mode. If it doesn't work for you, please just
write to me and ask me to do it for you. It's no big deal at my end.

Also, when you take some time off during which you do not wish to receive
LL-L mail, please simply write to me and give me the dates between which you
want to receive no mail. I'll put it into my calendar and will take care of
putting you on and taking you off vacation (no-mail) mode. So please feel
free to tell me well in advance, or on the day of your departure. It makes
no difference to me.

I imagine that several of you are going to travel during the Christmas, New
Year and Hanukka season.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?Felices Posadas a nuestros queridos amigos mexicanos!

??? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ??????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????
? ?????? ??? ??????? ???????!

????? ??????? ???????, ??????? ???????? ????????? ??????????, ?????????
????????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ????????!

?? ???? ????? ?????????, ???? ?? ??????? ???????????, ??????? ???? ???????
???? ?? ??????!

?? ?????? ????? ????????, ????? ?? ??????? ???????????, ???-????? ????? ??
????? ???? ?? ??. ???????!

Pentru a ne dragi prieteni, care sunt ortodocsi de Est, cele mai bune ur?ri
cu ocazia zilei de Sf. Nicolae!

To our dear friends, who are Eastern Orthodox, best wishes on the occasion
of Saint Nicholas Day!
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 19 19:16:45 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:16:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.19 (01) [D]
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.18 (01) [E]

Hallo,



Bij mij komen die dubbele e-mails ook af en toe binnen.

Het is wel zo dat mijn computer ze gelijk samen in eenzelfde kleur zet om al
aan te tonen dat het dezelfde mails zijn.



Groetjes,

Luc Vanbrabant

Oekene

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 19 19:20:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:20:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.DEC.2008.112049.0800.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (01) [E/LS]

>> Help needed - enjoyment of classical Low Saxon provided! <<



Dear Lowlanders,



last June (22.06.2008) I already informed you paranthetically, that I had
brought online one of the outstanding resources of classical modern time Low
Saxon, in this case Westphalian:

 F. W. Lyra: Plattdeutsche Briefe, Erz?hlungen und Gedichte..., Osnabr?ck
1844
------------------------------
==> Siit een paar daagen kan men dat bouk van F. W. Lyra - dank miiner
Digi-Book-Vadderscup (sponsorship) - "anner liine" li?sen [read online] or'r
runnerlaaen (man dat is in de originaale fraktuur-schrift):
http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/no_cache/dms/load/toc/?IDDOC=321236



Meanwhile, our friend Heiko Evermann has thankworthly cured the
OCR-processing of the facsimile and is now managing the proofreading of the
OCR-text on the Distributed Proofreaders side of the Gutenberg Project (FAQ
on this international cultural undertaking:
http://www.pgdp.net/c/faq/ProoferFAQ.php ).



This proofreading undertaking will result in an electronically readable,
searchable and evaluable text format of the Lyra work!



Whoever is disposed to know somewhat more on classical Low Saxon and
Westphalian and is willing to contribute to a sooner completion a this
project should join us at:



http://www.pgdp.net/c/project.php?id=projectID49403e70a3d57&detail_level=3



To participate in the project, you have to click the Register link right at
the top (if not already participant in one the pgdp proofreader projects).



I suppose, a big quota of the proofreading of Lyra's book will be done by
myself, but any help is desired. And I promise you - as I did a year ago
when calling for participation in Heiko's L?bben project of
Mittelniederdeutsches Handw?rterbuch:



"believe me:

Dat is eyne wane g?de w?se, den r?kdom unde de vylfoldicheyt der

sasseschen spraken beter to kennen unde tor eygen nutsamicheyt to

hebben!"



I abstain from traducing this to Modern LS or English ... You are also
encouraged to forward this information to your possibly interested friends
or language students.



Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 19 19:57:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:57:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.DEC.2008.115736.0800.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 19 December 2008 - Volume 03
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

Dear Lowlanders,



If you are not a native English speaker, how do you know that this phrase is
to pronounce English? Because you see, that it is not your mother language,
and because you have some knowledge of English, isn't it?



Se non sei italiano, come sai che questo frase ? da pronunciare italiano?
Perch? vedi che non sia la tua lingua materna, e forse hai qualche
conoscienza di lingue romane, vero?



Wan du nich met plaat d??dsk upwuassen bist, waaran mi?rkst du, dat d?sse
sat plaat k??rt w?ren mot? Wiils du gawwe mi?rkst, dat et nich haugd??dsk is
un wiils du vellicht en bietken plaat el??rt h?st, am besten nat?rdelk
oustwestf?elsk..., odr?



That to the question

wether a dialect should be written as close as possible to the main mother
language of people. What I mean is: when I see another language that I know
somewhat, I discover that by it's being different also in the apparence of
the text. So I'm not temptated to read it in my mother language
pronunciation, standard German. Otherwise there is the temptation to
pronounce the writing as used to. And that conduces to alter the dialect in
the direction of the main language, IMHO.



Probably the controverse between Reinhard F. Hahn and Heiko Evermann on the
orthography of Dr. Sa? and the Fehrs-Gilde was taken as too special for the
LS-language cultures outside Germany. One can understand that. But for the
LS-culture in Germany itself the deficits of Sa? orthography and the
unability to find another one more compatible for the whole range of LS
dialects in Germany is - not the main, of course, but - an obstacle for the
learning and the future of the LS language here.



Given that the above mentioned kurnouten and contrahents will understand my
Westphalian quite well, I continue by using it.



*2008.12.15 (04) Ron Hahn schraif:*

thinking about an auxiliary system to make up for the inadequacies of the
Sass system as it is widely used for the northern dialects.

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   - ? is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
   diacritics,
   - ? is easy to learn,
   - ? does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   - ? represents *all* phonemes.



Leywe metstriiders,



??wer d?sse 4 grundsette van Reginhart gift et je wual eynigheyt t?sken
allen bedeyligden, odr? M?n wan dat an't beoordeylen van den ?mmesettenge
geyt, s?t dat licht anners uut.



Ik haule dat uuteneyne-setten ??wer de beste, bi?ter "am ehesten algemeyn
anniembare" schriifwiis, t'minnest met gliike grunt-ri?geln, f?r wichtig,
wiil dat f?r dat Plaatd??dske in D??dskland na nich el?st is. M?n ik kan dat
nich blaut as frauge van m?gelke verbi?terengen van dat Sa?ke system der
Fehrs-Gilden diskuteeren. Dat system mag je f?r dat NoordNiidersasseske -
met en paar verbi?terngen - angaun (daar kenne ik mi nich noug in uut),
aawers f?r alle "F?elsken" (west-/oust-f?elsken, brannenborgisken un
waarschiinlik auk anneren oust-"kolonialen" sassesken varianten) d??get de
Sa?-schriifri?geln hinnen un vorne nich. Ik kan dat blaut am Westf?elsken
fastmaaken:



Alleyn de gebruuk van deynungs-e achter ?i? , d. h. ?ie? met Sa? in ?kriegen
(infinitiv! in participium praeteriti w??r'et je recht), Tiet, Bedrief,
Wief, fief" stats eynd??dig ?kriigen, tiit, bedriif, wiif, fiif? of
meynethalwen auk ?kr?gen, t?t, bedr?f, w?f, f?f?, makt dat system f?r dat
Westf?elske un annere Plaat-varianten unbruukbar, wiil dey tweyluute van i
[fallende IPA ?i?e, ?i??, stiigende i??e,  i??? usw.] dan baule nich m??r
uutdr?kt w?rden k??nt odr ?mmest?ndlik as "?e, i?, iee" und derliiken.



De Sa?ke schriiwiis sluot van v?rnherin de westf?elsken plaat-varianten uut
odr makt dat schriiwen daarin swaarer as n??dig.



Sau viel blaut mal as dat vellicht wichtigste biispel f?r solken mangel van
dat Sa?-system.



Reinhard F. Hahn wiiter:

Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
distinguished everywhere.



J?st sau is dat. Un nicht blaut:

At a minimum, they must be distinguished in reference and teaching material.



RFH auk:

Sass made quite clear that where accuracy is required an *ogonek* be used
underneath an "e" ~ "ee" ~ "eh" and "?" ~ "?" ~ "?h" to mark them as long
monophthongs and thus distinguish them from their unmarked equivelents that
stand for diphthongs.



Met "ogonek" ment Heiko un Reginhard awers nich 'ne sowjetiske afweerrackete
of en compjuterspel, s?nnern diakritiske teeken as hiir unner ? ? ? ? ?,
h?ww'ik dat recht verstaun?



W?n jau, kan ik, leiwer Reginhard, dat nich as 'ne goude ?msetteng van
Hahn-ri?gel ? un ? anseyn. Un wat sl?gt de tiigensiite v?r?



Heiko Evermann schraif *2008.12.15 (06):*

Well, it might have been nice to retain such a distinction. Actually I have
talked with Hein Thies (the author of the current Sass dictionary) about
that. His statement simply was: after decades of trying to teach people to
make a distinction they have finally given up. No one was willing to use the
ogoneks. The only thing they now do is to list alternative forms in brackets
like in
1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (D??l): Diele
where the lack of the brackets in 1 indicates that the e is "zweit?nig)
or
1) ?wer: ?ber
2) ?ver (Euver): Ufer
where the lack of brackets in 1 indicates that the ? is "eint?nig". **



(Dat ??wer? in Noord-Niiersassesk "??wer" heyt un nich westf?elsk "??wer"
wil ik wual gl?iwen un nich diskuteeren, w??re eynew?g en anneret tema.)



And that's all.



Echt jau, Heiko? Dat is et al? Blaut 4 biispellen met 8 verschillene
waart-fuormen un -schriifwiisen, un daarto twey ri?geln, dey jedet kiind up
toroup versteyt ;-) ? (et doit mi leyd, ik h?wwe dat eerst vandaage, biim 7.
li?sen binnen 2 jaaren - toeerst im Neuen SASS und dan hiir van di - und
naumal ??werdenken verstaun ...) Un dan, wo sal dat gaun: j?mmers w?n me
nich weyt, of wat twey- of eynluutig uutspruoken w?rd, mot me dat waart
fl?ks im "Neuen Sass" nauslaun, ?mme to wieten,



of de indraag f?r dat waart m??r dem biispel

1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (D??l): Diele

odr

1) ?wer: ?ber
2) ?ver (Euver): Ufer

entspri?ken d?it?



Waar?mme so kumpelseyrt, waar et dach auk eynfacker geyt, w?n me nich up
haugd??dske orthografie fixeert is? Miin v?rslag? ;-):

-----------------------------------------------------------

1. Tweyluut/diphtong => 2 vokal-boukstaawen.

2. Lange s?lfstluute (langvokale) => verduwwelde vokal-boukstaawen.

3. Metluut-Verduwwelunge inspuaren!

4. ai/ay <=> ey ?nnerscheydeng.

-------------------------------------------------------------



Begr?ndenge:



1. Tweyluut/diphtong => 2 vokal-boukstaawen.



Diphtonge w?rdet j?mmers as diphtong, dat heyt met twey verschillene
vokal-boukstawen eschriewen (triphtong logisk met 3).

(Dat kan me van Kl?ntrup siin Niederdeutsch-Westf?lisches W?rterbuch lehren,
dat gift den klassisken oust-westf?elsken luutstand wiir.)



2. Lange s?lfstluute (langvokale) => verduwwelde vokal-boukstaawen.



Lange, eynluutige vokale w?rdet j?mmers (ik s?gge: j?mmers, nich blaut in
sluotenen s?lwen) met vokal-verduwwelung (aa, ??, ee, oo, ??, uu, ??)
eschriewen.



?Dar? (of ?daar? of ?d'r? of ?'r?) blift eyn grensfal:  w?n eyn uutluutendet
"r" folgt, wiil dat meest s?lwst en half-vokal is [IPA ?, ?, ?], bin ik
daartou na nich entscheyden, of d'r auk j?mmers de vokal (in dem fal ?a?)
verduwwelt w?rden sal, dat is f?r mi 'ne uapene frauge.



Un bii/bi gel?ipige eyn-s?lwer brukt me dat auk nich alstostrenk to niemen.
Bi eyn[e], en[ne], 'n[e] mot me dat vellicht sau maaken, as me dat h??rt of
h??ren lauten wil.



(As Biispel kan me de strenge trennung van lang- un kort-vokalen bi Lyra van
1845 ("Plattdeutsche Briefe, Erz?hlungen und Gedichte" studeeren:

http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/no_cache/de/dms/load/toc/?IDDOC=321578&



3. Metluut-Verduwwelunge inspuaren!



Daar up d?sse wiise de lengte van s?lwen uut den vokalen herv?rgeyt (wiil
lank-eynluuter j?mmers verduwwelt sint und tweyluuter eynew?g twey
boukstaawen h?wwet), kan de haugd??dske bruuk van der verduwwelung der
metluute (konsonanten) na korten s?lwen _entfallen_. Sau spuaren wi de
verduwwelden boukstaawen van langen vokalen daar - bi den konsonanten -
deylwiis wir in. (Blaut d?n, wan de uutlaut-konsonant togliik de
anluut-konsonant van der folgenden s?lwe is, w?rde ik hem wiiterhen
verdu-w|w-eln.)



4. ai/ay <=> ey ?nnerscheydeng.



W?n schriifri?geln f?r m??r as blaut dat noordniiersasseske plaat gelten
salt, dan m?eten se auk de schriifwiis f?r dat tweyluut-paar [IPA ai, a?<vs.>
??, ei] klaarstellen. An sik w??re ?ei? historisk-graphemisk richtig f?r [??,
ei], blaut w??rde ik dar r?gsicht ni?men up de haugd??dske gewuonheyt, de
boukstaawenfolge ?ei? automatisk as [IPA ai, a?] to li?sen un dar?mme f?r [
??, ei] de schriifwiis ?ey? f?r bi?ter haulen (as dat auk Ron Hahn faaken to
doun plegt).



As ni?wenw?rkung kan de ey-luut nich m??r as lang-ee misverstaun w?rden.



Liikers s?lde dan, ?mme den a-Tweyluut [IPA ai, a?] to schriiwen, ?ai? of
?ay? wi?lt w?rden, ?m dat eend??dig (un graphemisk richtig) to maaken. (Dat
haugd??dske graphem ?ei? k?mp dan eenfak nich v?r.)



De ri?gelung van de [ai, a?] tiigen [??, ei] schriifwiis is f?r dat
westf?elske heyl wichtig, wiil wi - s?nners in'm pr?teritum (vergaunentiit)
van starken verben - faaken [ai/a?] hewwet un nich ?ee? of ?ey? as im
Noord-LS.



In'm "neuen SASS (waardenbouk)" segget se darto - to de
boukstaawen-kombinatsjoun ?ei? - niks, awers schriiwet f?r [IPA ai, a?]
slicht ?ei? as im haugd??dsken, dat is 'ne slechte ri?gelung und nin sinnige
gebruuk. (Dat hadden allerdings auk de klassisken westf?elsk-schriiwer as
Lyra, Kl?ntrup un Grupe uut dem Haugd??dsken sau ??wernuomen, leyder.)



Sau, met d?sse veer grunt-ri?geln as biidrag to eyne algemeyn anni?mbare und
lichte plaat-schriifwiis, wil ik et v?r wignachten un nigjaar bew?nden
lauten.



Sch??ne Fiirdaage! Ik mag ju wual!



Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Krigst 'n dank, Joachim.

Du schreyvst:



Met "ogonek" ment Heiko un Reginhard awers nich 'ne sowjetiske afweerrackete
of en compjuterspel, s?nnern diakritiske teeken as hiir unner ? ? ? ? ?,
h?ww'ik dat recht verstaun?



Ja, dat stimt.

 W?n jau, kan ik, leiwer Reginhard, dat nich as 'ne goude ?msetteng van
Hahn-ri?gel ? un ? anseyn. Un wat sl?gt de tiigensiite v?r?



Ik har man nich segd dat ik dat ogonek goud vinden dou, or dey Sass'sche
schrievwys'. Ik har later ook schreven dat nu in dey Sass'sche schryvwys'
staats ?e-ogonek" ??" und staats ??-ogonek" ??" or ?oe" schreven wardt, wyl
dat dat nich so gedygen is.

Na myn verscheel hebt wy 't mang dey Sassischen varianten mit tou mindst
twey, villicht drey spraak-s?stemen tou doun: *Nourd-Neddersassisch* (mit
Mekelnborgsch, V?rpommersch, Gr?nningsch un Nourd-Drentsch),
*Westfaalsch*(mit all dey annern varianten in dey Nedderlannen), un
villicht
*Oostfaalsch-Brannenborgsch* (or veyr gruppen wen wy Mennonytsch as
af-s?nnerd an-kykt). Mank j?m givt dat veel regelmatige
luud-korrespondenssen, t.b. ee ? i?, aa ? ua, ?? ? ?? ? ui ~ iu. Teoreetsch
kunnen in elk val dey s?lvigen boukstaven bruukt warden. In myn s?steem s?nd
dat ee, aa, uy. Dat kun v?r dey Westfalen nich noug wesen, un sey wullen
(half-foneetsch) ua staats aa schryven. Tou mindst weyr dat goud wen v?r al
dey gruppen *eyn* grund-s?steem bruukt woyrd', egaal of dat Duytsch,
Hollandsch or ?exootsch" is.



Meyr kan ik up st?nds nich schryven, hev tou veel tou beschikken.

Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 19 20:00:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:00:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.DEC.2008.120051.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 December 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).
If viewing this in a web browser, please click on
the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page
and switch your browser's character encoding to Unicode.
===========================================


From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

Dear Lowlanders,

If you are not a native English speaker, how do you know that this phrase is
to pronounce English? Because you see, that it is not your mother language,
and because you have some knowledge of English, isn't it?

Se non sei italiano, come sai che questo frase ? da pronunciare italiano?
Perch? vedi che non sia la tua lingua materna, e forse hai qualche
conoscienza di lingue romane, vero?

Wan du nich met plaat d??dsk upwuassen bist, waaran mi?rkst du, dat d?sse
sat plaat k??rt w?ren mot? Wiils du gawwe mi?rkst, dat et nich haugd??dsk is
un wiils du vellicht en bietken plaat el??rt h?st, am besten nat?rdelk
oustwestf?elsk..., odr?

That to the question

wether a dialect should be written as close as possible to the main mother
language of people. What I mean is: when I see another language that I know
somewhat, I discover that by it's being different also in the apparence of
the text. So I'm not temptated to read it in my mother language
pronunciation, standard German. Otherwise there is the temptation to
pronounce the writing as used to. And that conduces to alter the dialect in
the direction of the main language, IMHO.

Probably the controverse between Reinhard F. Hahn and Heiko Evermann on the
orthography of Dr. Sa? and the Fehrs-Gilde was taken as too special for the
LS-language cultures outside Germany. One can understand that. But for the
LS-culture in Germany itself the deficits of Sa? orthography and the
unability to find another one more compatible for the whole range of LS
dialects in Germany is - not the main, of course, but - an obstacle for the
learning and the future of the LS language here.

Given that the above mentioned kurnouten and contrahents will understand my
Westphalian quite well, I continue by using it.

*2008.12.15 (04) Ron Hahn schraif:*

thinking about an auxiliary system to make up for the inadequacies of the
Sass system as it is widely used for the northern dialects.

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   - ? is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
   diacritics,
   - ? is easy to learn,
   - ? does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   - ? represents *all* phonemes.

Leywe metstriiders,

??wer d?sse 4 grundsette van Reginhart gift et je wual eynigheyt t?sken
allen bedeyligden, odr? M?n wan dat an't beoordeylen van den ?mmesettenge
geyt, s?t dat licht anners uut.

Ik haule dat uuteneyne-setten ??wer de beste, bi?ter "am ehesten algemeyn
anniembare" schriifwiis, t'minnest met gliike grunt-ri?geln, f?r wichtig,
wiil dat f?r dat Plaatd??dske in D??dskland na nich el?st is. M?n ik kan dat
nich blaut as frauge van m?gelke verbi?terengen van dat Sa?ke system der
Fehrs-Gilden diskuteeren. Dat system mag je f?r dat NoordNiidersasseske -
met en paar verbi?terngen - angaun (daar kenne ik mi nich noug in uut),
aawers f?r alle "F?elsken" (west-/oust-f?elsken, brannenborgisken un
waarschiinlik auk anneren oust-"kolonialen" sassesken varianten) d??get de
Sa?-schriifri?geln hinnen un vorne nich. Ik kan dat blaut am Westf?elsken
fastmaaken:

Alleyn de gebruuk van deynungs-e achter ?i? , d. h. ?ie? met Sa? in ?kriegen
(infinitiv! in participium praeteriti w??r'et je recht), Tiet, Bedrief,
Wief, fief" stats eynd??dig ?kriigen, tiit, bedriif, wiif, fiif? of
meynethalwen auk ?kr?gen, t?t, bedr?f, w?f, f?f?, makt dat system f?r dat
Westf?elske un annere Plaat-varianten unbruukbar, wiil dey tweyluute van i
[fallende IPA ?i?e, ?i??, stiigende i??e,  i??? usw.] dan baule nich m??r
uutdr?kt w?rden k??nt odr ?mmest?ndlik as "?e, i?, iee" und derliiken.

De Sa?ke schriiwiis sluot van v?rnherin de westf?elsken plaat-varianten uut
odr makt dat schriiwen daarin swaarer as n??dig.

Sau viel blaut mal as dat vellicht wichtigste biispel f?r solken mangel van
dat Sa?-system.

Reinhard F. Hahn wiiter:

Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
distinguished everywhere.

J?st sau is dat. Un nicht blaut:

At a minimum, they must be distinguished in reference and teaching material.

RFH auk:

Sass made quite clear that where accuracy is required an *ogonek* be used
underneath an "e" ~ "ee" ~ "eh" and "?" ~ "?" ~ "?h" to mark them as long
monophthongs and thus distinguish them from their unmarked equivelents that
stand for diphthongs.

Met "ogonek" ment Heiko un Reginhard awers nich 'ne sowjetiske afweerrackete
of en compjuterspel, s?nnern diakritiske teeken as hiir unner ? ? ? ? ?,
h?ww'ik dat recht verstaun?

W?n jau, kan ik, leiwer Reginhard, dat nich as 'ne goude ?msetteng van
Hahn-ri?gel ? un ? anseyn. Un wat sl?gt de tiigensiite v?r?

Heiko Evermann schraif *2008.12.15 (06):*

Well, it might have been nice to retain such a distinction. Actually I have
talked with Hein Thies (the author of the current Sass dictionary) about
that. His statement simply was: after decades of trying to teach people to
make a distinction they have finally given up. No one was willing to use the
ogoneks. The only thing they now do is to list alternative forms in brackets
like in
1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (D??l): Diele
where the lack of the brackets in 1 indicates that the e is "zweit?nig)
or
1) ?wer: ?ber
2) ?ver (Euver): Ufer
where the lack of brackets in 1 indicates that the ? is "eint?nig". **

(Dat ??wer? in Noord-Niiersassesk "??wer" heyt un nich westf?elsk "??wer"
wil ik wual gl?iwen un nich diskuteeren, w??re eynew?g en anneret tema.)

And that's all.

Echt jau, Heiko? Dat is et al? Blaut 4 biispellen met 8 verschillene
waart-fuormen un -schriifwiisen, un daarto twey ri?geln, dey jedet kiind up
toroup versteyt ;-) ? (et doit mi leyd, ik h?wwe dat eerst vandaage, biim 7.
li?sen binnen 2 jaaren - toeerst im Neuen SASS und dan hiir van di - und
naumal ??werdenken verstaun ...) Un dan, wo sal dat gaun: j?mmers w?n me
nich weyt, of wat twey- of eynluutig uutspruoken w?rd, mot me dat waart
fl?ks im "Neuen Sass" nauslaun, ?mme to wieten,

of de indraag f?r dat waart m??r dem biispel

1) Deel, Delen : Teil
2) Deel (D??l): Diele

odr

1) ?wer: ?ber
2) ?ver (Euver): Ufer

entspri?ken d?it?

Waar?mme so kumpelseyrt, waar et dach auk eynfacker geyt, w?n me nich up
haugd??dske orthografie fixeert is? Miin v?rslag? ;-):

-----------------------------------------------------------

1. Tweyluut/diphtong => 2 vokal-boukstaawen.

2. Lange s?lfstluute (langvokale) => verduwwelde vokal-boukstaawen.

3. Metluut-Verduwwelunge inspuaren!

4. ai/ay <=> ey ?nnerscheydeng.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Begr?ndenge:

1. Tweyluut/diphtong => 2 vokal-boukstaawen.

Diphtonge w?rdet j?mmers as diphtong, dat heyt met twey verschillene
vokal-boukstawen eschriewen (triphtong logisk met 3).

(Dat kan me van Kl?ntrup siin Niederdeutsch-Westf?lisches W?rterbuch lehren,
dat gift den klassisken oust-westf?elsken luutstand wiir.)

2. Lange s?lfstluute (langvokale) => verduwwelde vokal-boukstaawen.

Lange, eynluutige vokale w?rdet j?mmers (ik s?gge: j?mmers, nich blaut in
sluotenen s?lwen) met vokal-verduwwelung (aa, ??, ee, oo, ??, uu, ??)
eschriewen.

?Dar? (of ?daar? of ?d'r? of ?'r?) blift eyn grensfal:  w?n eyn uutluutendet
"r" folgt, wiil dat meest s?lwst en half-vokal is [IPA ?, ?, ?], bin ik
daartou na nich entscheyden, of d'r auk j?mmers de vokal (in dem fal ?a?)
verduwwelt w?rden sal, dat is f?r mi 'ne uapene frauge.

Un bii/bi gel?ipige eyn-s?lwer brukt me dat auk nich alstostrenk to niemen.
Bi eyn[e], en[ne], 'n[e] mot me dat vellicht sau maaken, as me dat h??rt of
h??ren lauten wil.

(As Biispel kan me de strenge trennung van lang- un kort-vokalen bi Lyra van
1845 ("Plattdeutsche Briefe, Erz?hlungen und Gedichte" studeeren:

http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/no_cache/de/dms/load/toc/?IDDOC=321578&

3. Metluut-Verduwwelunge inspuaren!

Daar up d?sse wiise de lengte van s?lwen uut den vokalen herv?rgeyt (wiil
lank-eynluuter j?mmers verduwwelt sint und tweyluuter eynew?g twey
boukstaawen h?wwet), kan de haugd??dske bruuk van der verduwwelung der
metluute (konsonanten) na korten s?lwen _entfallen_. Sau spuaren wi de
verduwwelden boukstaawen van langen vokalen daar - bi den konsonanten -
deylwiis wir in. (Blaut d?n, wan de uutlaut-konsonant togliik de
anluut-konsonant van der folgenden s?lwe is, w?rde ik hem wiiterhen
verdu-w|w-eln.)

4. ai/ay <=> ey ?nnerscheydeng.

W?n schriifri?geln f?r m??r as blaut dat noordniiersasseske plaat gelten
salt, dan m?eten se auk de schriifwiis f?r dat tweyluut-paar [IPA ai, a?<vs.>
??, ei] klaarstellen. An sik w??re ?ei? historisk-graphemisk richtig f?r [??,
ei], blaut w??rde ik dar r?gsicht ni?men up de haugd??dske gewuonheyt, de
boukstaawenfolge ?ei? automatisk as [IPA ai, a?] to li?sen un dar?mme f?r [
??, ei] de schriifwiis ?ey? f?r bi?ter haulen (as dat auk Ron Hahn faaken to
doun plegt).

As ni?wenw?rkung kan de ey-luut nich m??r as lang-ee misverstaun w?rden.

Liikers s?lde dan, ?mme den a-Tweyluut [IPA ai, a?] to schriiwen, ?ai? of
?ay? wi?lt w?rden, ?m dat eend??dig (un graphemisk richtig) to maaken. (Dat
haugd??dske graphem ?ei? k?mp dan eenfak nich v?r.)

De ri?gelung van de [ai, a?] tiigen [??, ei] schriifwiis is f?r dat
westf?elske heyl wichtig, wiil wi - s?nners in'm pr?teritum (vergaunentiit)
van starken verben - faaken [ai/a?] hewwet un nich ?ee? of ?ey? as im
Noord-LS.

In'm "neuen SASS (waardenbouk)" segget se darto - to de
boukstaawen-kombinatsjoun ?ei? - niks, awers schriiwet f?r [IPA ai, a?]
slicht ?ei? as im haugd??dsken, dat is 'ne slechte ri?gelung und nin sinnige
gebruuk. (Dat hadden allerdings auk de klassisken westf?elsk-schriiwer as
Lyra, Kl?ntrup un Grupe uut dem Haugd??dsken sau ??wernuomen, leyder.)

Sau, met d?sse veer grunt-ri?geln as biidrag to eyne algemeyn anni?mbare und
lichte plaat-schriifwiis, wil ik et v?r wignachten un nigjaar bew?nden
lauten.

Sch??ne Fiirdaage! Ik mag ju wual!

Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Krigst 'n dank, Joachim.

Du schreyvst:

Met "ogonek" ment Heiko un Reginhard awers nich 'ne sowjetiske afweerrackete
of en compjuterspel, s?nnern diakritiske teeken as hiir unner ? ? ? ? ?,
h?ww'ik dat recht verstaun?

Ja, dat stimt.

W?n jau, kan ik, leiwer Reginhard, dat nich as 'ne goude ?msetteng van
Hahn-ri?gel ? un ? anseyn. Un wat sl?gt de tiigensiite v?r?

Ik har man nich segd dat ik dat ogonek goud vinden dou, or dey Sass'sche
schrievwys'. Ik har later ook schreven dat nu in dey Sass'sche schryvwys'
staats ?e-ogonek" ??" und staats ??-ogonek" ??" or ?oe" schreven wardt, wyl
dat dat nich so gedygen is.

Na myn verscheel hebt wy 't mang dey Sassischen varianten mit tou mindst
twey, villicht drey spraak-s?stemen tou doun: *Nourd-Neddersassisch* (mit
Mekelnborgsch, V?rpommersch, Gr?nningsch un Nourd-Drentsch),
*Westfaalsch*(mit all dey annern varianten in dey Nedderlannen), un
villicht
*Oostfaalsch-Brannenborgsch* (or veyr gruppen wen wy Mennonytsch as
af-s?nnerd an-kykt). Mank j?m givt dat veel regelmatige
luud-korrespondenssen, t.b. ee ? i?, aa ? ua, ?? ? ?? ? ui ~ iu. Teoreetsch
kunnen in elk val dey s?lvigen boukstaven bruukt warden. In myn s?steem s?nd
dat ee, aa, uy. Dat kun v?r dey Westfalen nich noug wesen, un sey wullen
(half-foneetsch) ua staats aa schryven. Tou mindst weyr dat goud wen v?r al
dey gruppen *eyn* grund-s?steem bruukt woyrd', egaal of dat Duytsch,
Hollandsch or ?exootsch" is.

Meyr kan ik up st?nds nich schryven, hev tou veel tou beschikken.

Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron
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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:37:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.DEC.2008.133712.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]



> From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

> Reinhard F. Hahn wiiter:
>
> Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
> mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
> distinguished everywhere.

Ron,

I don't think the idea that "this will make it easier for learners" is a
very good argument.

When I was learning Russian, for example, the fact that vowel length was
more or less random and yet not marked was a bit of a drag. I did think,
however that no Russian should have to spend every day of his life
dealing with orthographic junk that he doesn't need, just so that I can
learn the language more easily. So I was marking the length in my
vocabulary book, where's the problem in that?

When children go to school, they're already not mispronouncing their
language, so while they may be learning to read it, this isn't a problem
for them.

When it comes to foreign learners, if they can't be bothered with such
difficulties, then they'd never learn the language properly anyway. If
they really want to learn, then it's all part of the experience.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Sandy,

In this context, if not all contexts, I meant by "learners" everyone that
learns a new word or expression. This can be a second-language learner or a
native speaker learner, or a researcher. If the native orthography is
inadequate to tell the learner the pronunciation then a secondary system
needs to be utilized in any reference work worth consulting.

In the case of English dictionaries, good encyclopedias and textbooks, some
sort of auxiliary phonetic script is used in addition to regular spelling of
a key word. The English Wikipedia only does this in cases of rarely
occurring names. So you need to consult other dictionaries if you do not
know the pronunciation of a given word.

In better Russian reference works, main stress is marked in all key words or
otherwise newly introduced words and expressions, since Russian stress
assignment is not consistently predictable. Fortunately, the Russian
Wikipedia people follow this tradition of using accent marks in key words.
The same can be said of the Ukrainian edition. One Belarusian edition does
it inconsistently and the other does not do it at all.

The German Wikipedia uses no system to indicate phonological detail, not
even where stress and vowel length are not predictable. (Bear in mind that
German stress and vowel length are not always predictable.) It only gives
the foreign pronunciation in cases of foreign words and names. The same
applies to the Latvian, Lithuanian, Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian editions
in which stress and tones are never indicated, although they are indicated
in better dictionaries and encyclopedias for these languages.

No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the
regular orthography does all that is required to know the pronunciation,
unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is the case for instance
in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian, Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.

Stress is largely predictable in Low Saxon. Furthermore, the foremost
systems indicate vowel length. So, whichever of the more used systems you
use, the system is in fact someone superior in this regard to the German
system. There is only the issue of distinguishing certain diphthongs from
long monophthongs where the "casual" variants of the writing systems do not
distinguish them. The systems proposed and widely used in Germany do come
with devices to make the distinctions, and the creator recommended using
them, which is what better dictionary do. While I would like to see them
used everywhere, my point is that reference and teaching materials at the
very least ought to use these devices, since they are supposed to be
resources that are consulted by "learners," however you define this word.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:43:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.12.19 (04) [LS/German]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de <mailto:
Kreimer at jpberlin.de>>


*2008.12.15 (04) Ron Hahn schraif:*

thinking about an auxiliary system to make up for the inadequacies of the
Sass system as it is widely used for the northern dialects.

Pretty much any system will do as long as it ...

   * ? is typologically easy (i.e. not full of "exotic" letters and
     diacritics,
   * ? is easy to learn,
   * ? does not pretend to be a phonetic writing system,
   * ? represents _all_ phonemes.

Leywe metstriiders,

??wer d?sse 4 grundsette van Reginhart gift et je wual eynigheyt t?sken
allen bedeyligden, odr? M?n wan dat an't beoordeylen van den ?mmesettenge
geyt, s?t dat licht anners uut.

? is ganz gewiss richtig ("easy" kann ja nich slecht wesen).
Bi ? s?tt dat al anners ut. "exotic letters" s?nd blot exootsch, wenn se in
dien Schrievsystem ans nich v?rkaamt. "exotic letters" s?nd also blot en
Problem, wenn du en neet System inf?hren wullt. Wenn dat ne'e System
eerstmal mit Erfolg inf?hrt is, denn warrt ut de exootschen Bookstaven gau
ganz normale Bookstaven. Aver ik geev to, dat ? liekers richtig is, denn en
neet System mit veel exootsche Bookstaven _kann nich_ "mit Erfolg inf?hrt"
warrn. Tominnst nich ahn groot Insatz. Un groot Insatz is f?r dat
Plattd??tsche nich realistisch.

?: Jo, verkehrt is dat nich. Aver dat Problem is, dat elkeen Dialekt sien
egen Satz hett. Wenn wi in de Geschicht tr?chkiekt, denn is de j?ngste
gemeensame V?rfohr von all plattd??tsche Dialekten dat westgermaansche. Ik
heff hier en Book liggen ("Die Einteilung der niederdeutschen Mundarten
aufgrund der strukturellen Entwicklung des Vokalismus") dat f?r 263 ??rd in
Nedderd??tschland (in'n wieden Sinn, also tohoop mit Nedderlannen und
Belgien) ?nners?cht, wie sik de Vokaals von dat Westgermaansche entwickelt
hebbt. In S??dwestfalen is allens bi'n olen bleven. De fief korten Vokaals,
de fief langen Vokaals un de Diphthongen warrt ok vondaag noch all
?nnerscheden. In mien Dialekt s?tt dat ganz anners ut. a, o, u un ? s?nd
tohoopfullen (vake -> foken, voget -> Voog, fugal -> Vogel, gn?de -> Gnood),
? un au s?nd tohoopfullen (bl?me -> Bloum, knaup -> Knoup), e un i s?nd
tohoopfullen (gelo -> geel, dile -> Deel) un ? un ai s?nd tohoopfullen
(br?ve -> Breyf, dail -> Deyl). Wen ik nu f?r en allgemene Schrievwies all
disse ?nnerscheed, de f?r mi keen s?nd, maken schall, denn kriegt wi gau en
System, dat j?stso "unlogisch" is as dat Engelsche. Dat schall nich heten,
dat ik dor nich to bereit b?n, aver so en System mutt ok lehrt warrn, dat de
L??d dat ok verstaht. In'e School to'n Bispeel. En kumplex System is keen
Problem, wenn de Lesers dit kumplexe System al in de School lehrt. Wenn dat
aver keen ?nnerricht gifft un de Lesers sik spontan op en Schrievwies
instellen sch??lt, denn warrt de sik swoordoon mit en System dat "klook" is,
aver wo eben nich licht un stracks d?rtostiegen is. Dat se dat _spontan_
verstaht, helpt eben en Schrievwies, de sik an dat
Hoochd??tsche/Nedderlandsche anlehnt. Dat hebbt se in de School lehrt.

?: Wat schall denn "pretend" bed?den? Ik stimm op jeden Fall to, dat en
Schrievsystem f?r dat kumplette Plattd??tsche nich phoneetsch wesen dr?ff.
De plattd??tschen Schrieversl??d laat sik ja in twee Gruppen indelen:
Dialektschrievers un Spraakschrievers. Wi hier op de List s?nd v?r allen
Spraakschrievers. Wi s??kt na en allgemene Schrievwies, de f?r all Dialekten
tohoop to gebruken is. Aver en groten Deel von de L??d s?nd
Dialektschrievers. De schrievt den Dialekt von jemehr Heimatd?rp op, f?r en
Publikum ut jemehr Heimatd?rp un de engere ?mgegend. De hebbt dor gorkeen
groot Intress an, dat L??d mit fr?mme Dialekten jem lesen doot. Wenn se en
groot Publikum hebben wullen, denn kunnen se ok Hoochd??tsch oder
Nedderlandsch schrieven. De _w?llt_ phoneetsch schrieven. Dat is dat grote
Problem bi de plattd??tsche Schrieveree: Dat sik ok na ?ver 150 Johr noch
keen allgemene Schrievwies d?rsett hett, dat liggt nich dor an, dat dat so
en swore Opgaav is. Nee, dat liggt dor an, dat nich noog L??d en Intress an
so'n Schrievwies hebbt. Wof?r bruukt wi en allgemene Schrievwies? Platt
warrt nich in'e School lehrt. Dat gifft keen plattd??tsche Wetenschop. Dat
gifft keen plattd??tsche Saakb?ker. Dat gifft keen plattd??tsche Daagbl?der.
Dat gifft keen plattd??tsch Medium, dat sik ?verregional an de L??d wennt.
Un wenn allens in de Region blifft, denn reckt ok regionale
dialektphoneetsche Schrievwiesen. Wor?m hebbt denn D??tsch, Engelsch un
Franz??sch en eenheitliche Schrievwies entwickelt? Dat keem mit'n Bookdruck.
Mit'n Bookdruck hebbt se dat eerste Maal ?verregional schreven. De
Handschriften v?rher weren ja allens Unikate. Extra schreven f?r en enkelten
Opdraggever. Dat weer also Person to Person, blot ene enzige Person m?ss dat
lesen k?nen (j?st as de Dialektschrievers seggt, dat dat blot de Minschen in
jemehr Heimatregion lesen k?nnen m??t). Mit'n Bookdruck weer dat nu aver so,
dat dat Publikum nich mehr bekannt weer, dat dat Publikum gr?tter weer un
wieder weg. Dor weer opmal en veel gr?ttern Druck dor, so to schrieven as de
annern ok schrievt. Dat se dat ?nnerenanner lesen k??nt. Dat weer opmal also
_n?dig_ eenheitlich to schrieven. Un disse Nood hebbt de Plattd??tschen
nich.

Dat is mien Menen: Wenn de Staat seggen dee: "Wi stellt uns uns
Verantwoordung. De Charta f?r de Regional- oder Minnerheitenspraken is nich
blot Poppeer. Doon is mehr as Snacken. Wi w?llt mehr as blot
"Sterbebegleitung" f?r dat Plattd??tsche doon. Wi w?llt de n?digen Ma?nahmen
ergriepen, dat de Spraak _bestahn_ blifft. _Duurhaft bestahn._ Wi geevt von
nu an elk Johr ene Milliarde Euro ut, f?r School?nnerricht f?r Platt un op
Platt, f?r dat Inrichten von plattd??tsche Medien, f?r Schriever- un
?versetterstipendien un f?r all dat, wat wi ok f?r de hoochd??tsche Spraak
doot, ahn dat dor groot een ?ver snackt." Wenn de Staat dat seggen dee un de
plattd??tsche Kulturbedriev ut de Subsistenzweertschop opwaken dee, denn dee
dat blot en poor Johr duurn (sogor wenn dor nix offiziell reguleert warrt),
bet sik von alleen en allgemene Schrievwies rutbillen dee. Dor gl??v ik fast
an.

Marcus Buck

PS: Ik heff baven von Stipendien f?r Schrievers un ?versetters snackt. Dat
also de Staat L??d Geld betahlt, dat de in Roh B?ker schrieven oder
?versetten k??nt, ok wenn de Sprekertall von de Spraak dat normalerwies nich
hergifft. Dat gifft to'n Bispeel so bi 60.000 L??d, de dat schottsche
G??lsch snacken doot. Wenn ik nu en Book schriev, denn mutt so temlich
elkeen von disse L??d dat Book kopen, dat ik dor von leven kann. Wenn
Schottland nu en Grundgehalt f?r g??lsche Schrievers betahlen dee, denn
kunnen de schrieven, ahn dat se dor von afh?ngig s?nd, dat de L??d nu ok all
dat Book k??pt. So lett sik de Kulturproduktion f?r l?ttje Spraken d??dlich
vergr?ttern.
Gifft dat sowat al irgendwo? Villicht ok annersr?m as Subvention op B?ker in
l?ttje Spraken? Katalanen oder Basken villicht oder annerwegens? Oder m??t
de l?ttjen Spraken all na de Regeln von'n fre'en Markt spelen?
(Info: Plattd??tsch hett en Bookproduktion von 150 B?ker elk Johr,
Westfreesch von so bi 100 B?ker. Wenn de Staat blot ene Million Euro
opwennt, denn kann he dor 20 L??d von 50.000 Euro betahlen. Dat reckt, de
Bookproduktion to verdubbeln.)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 20 23:57:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:57:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2008.12.20 (01) [LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.DEC.2008.155718.0800.>

===========================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.12.21 (01) [LS]




Leywe Liigl?nners,



ney, ney, ik wil ju nich twingen, auk na de fraktuur-schrift to l??ren. Ik
wil blaut maul seyn, af wi d?ssen e-breyf met de html-tabellen-struktuur
??wer de LL-Listen j?st sau wirkriigen, d. h. met de marginalien
(sidenotes). Un daarmet dat nich heyl formaal blift, sende ik ju to
wignachten na en verske van Kl?ntrup.

Wan dat goud ank?mt, k?ont ji de e-breyf as entwuorp spiikern un f?r ?inlike
twecke - ik meyn daarmet weniger de fraktuur dan de randnouten -
wirverwenden.

J O O S T   U N   J A N

E N   V E R S K E   V A N   K L ? N T R U P

U P   P L A A T   W E S T F ? E L S K





Med e deylt van F. W. Lyra? in siine plaatd??dsken Breefe, Vertellsels un
Leeder ... van 1844. --- Met Waartverklaarenge nigge 'ruutgiewen van Joachim
Kreimer-de Fries, Berlin 2008



------------------



Joost un Jan



Wat gift't Nigges ?, seggde Joost to Jan,



Se dr?upen ? sick unnerwieges ? an.



?Vull Nigges ?, man nicks Goues,? seggde Jan to Joost,



?De Paapst is up den D??wel erboust ?;



?Dann t?sken 'r Hell un'n Fiegef??r ?



?Is in e fallen de aule M??r' ?;?



?Un nu kann, na miinen Gissen ?,



?De Paapst de M??ren gaar nich missen.?



?Dat gift'n P'rze? ??,? si? Joost to Jan.



?Jau wual, un'n P'rze?, de wat duuren ?? kann,



?Dann't meeste Geld ?? heft de Paapst s?nner Twiiwel ??,



?Aawers de meesten Avekaaten heft de D??wel.?



                                                            Kl?ntrup
(Manuscript)



Goutgaun!

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries











                                            ? F. W. Lyra: Plattdeutsche
Briefe, Erz?hlungen und Gedichte ..., Osnabr?ck 1844, S. 179-181         ?
new   ? they met each other ? on the way   ? many niews, but nothing good
? the pope is angry about the devil   ? purgatory   ? tumbled down the old
wall     ? guess       ?? court case     ?? take a long time   ??  money
?? without doubt
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 21 19:23:57 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:23:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.112357.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holdiays

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy holidays to all of you that celebrate them!

Happy Fourth Advent to all Western Tradition Christians among you! (I *
believe* my count is correct.) Also, beginning this week, merry Christmas! I
hope all of you were mostly nice and only a little bit naughty.

Happy first day of Hanukka to all our Jewish Lowlanders! May those lamps and
candles shine forever!

Happy Yule and Litha to you Pagans, and, correspondingly, happy Alban
Arthuan and Alban Heruin (Alban Hefin) respectively to you Celticists! (We
are talking about Winter Solstice in the Northern and Summer Solstice in the
Southern Hemisphere.)

Greetings to all from an unusually snowy Seattle!

Yours,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 21 19:46:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:46:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.114623.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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=======================================================================

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

Hello Lowlanders, I was just thinking when I got Ron's Holliday message that
I know very little about what is iconic for this part of the year in other
cultures. Wotan had his mighty oak and maybe mistletoe already. For the
people in the Northern hemisphere the oaks were felled and replaced with "Oh
Tannenbaum" and lately I have run into many a "Hanukka bush". But what other
cultural icons are there? Solstices were easily observed even by people
without modern technology. So there must be other signs around.

In any case, no matter how you celebrate, I wish you light, warmth and love.
Jacqueline

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 21 22:43:46 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:43:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.21 (03) [German]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.144346.0800.>

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L: Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache - neue Karten

Leve L???d,

heute habe ich eine Mailbenachrichtigung ?ber den "Atlas zur deutschen
Alltagssprache" bekommen. Die Ergebnisse der f?nften Runde sind da: 44
Karten mit z.B.
* Weihnachtsmann vs. Christkind
* Christbaum vs. Tannenbaum
etc.

Viel Spa? beim St?bern. Und vielleicht habt Ihr ja auch Lust, an der
sechsten Umfrage teilzunehmen.

Hartlich Gr?ten,

Heiko

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: *Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache (AdA)* <
phil-ada at listserv.uni-augsburg.de>
Date: 2008/12/20
Subject: Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache - neue Karten
To: phil-ada at listserv.uni-augsburg.de


Guten Tag, gr?ezi, gr?? Gott, servus, moin,moin!

Sie haben im letzten oder in diesem Jahr freundlicherweise an unserer
Umfrage zum regionalen Sprachgebrauch in den deutschsprachigen L?ndern
teilgenommen (Deutschland, ?sterreich, der Schweiz, Norditalien,
Liechtenstein und Ostbelgien). Daf?r danken wir Ihnen sehr!

Wir freuen uns, Ihnen heute ? genau ein Jahr nach dem Start der Umfrage ?
auf unserer Projektseite die Ergebnisse dieser Umfrage auf 44 Karten
pr?sentieren zu k?nnen. Wenn Sie auf folgenden Link klicken, werden Sie
gleich auf die Startseite zu den Ergebnissen der ?F?nften Runde" geleitet:
http://www.philhist.uni-augsburg.de/lehrstuehle/germanistik/sprachwissenschaft/ada/runde_5/
.
Dort finden Sie auf der linken Leiste die ?bersicht aller Karten, die Sie
jeweils einzeln ansteuern und anklicken k?nnen. Sie erfahren dort unter
anderem, wo man ?Tannenb?ume", ?Christb?ume" oder ?Weihnachtsb?ume"
aufstellt und wo das ?Christkind(-l/-li)" bzw. der ?Weihnachtsmann" kommt.

Viele TeilnehmerInnen der Umfrage haben auch ihre Bereitschaft
ausgedr?ckt, an zuk?nftigen Befragungen teilzunehmen. Wir w?rden uns sehr
freuen, wenn Sie sich wieder einige Minuten Zeit nehmen und auch den neuen
Fragebogen ausf?llen k?nnten. Dazu klicken Sie einfach den entsprechenden
Link unten auf der Startseite (?Online-Fragebogen") oder das Feld
?Aktuelle Umfrage: Sechste Runde" in der linken Leiste an
(
http://www.philhist.uni-augsburg.de/lehrstuehle/germanistik/sprachwissenschaft/ada/runde_6/
).
Dort finden Sie dieses Mal einen neuartigen Fragebogen: Es geht darum, wo
man nach Ihrer Einsch?tzung so ?hnlich spricht wie an Ihrem Ort (und wo
ganz anders). Das Ausf?llen des Fragebogens dauert etwa 10 Minuten, und
Sie k?nnen ihn wieder an Ort und Stelle beantworten; Herunterladen oder
Ausdrucken ist also nicht notwendig. (In der siebten Fragerunde, die wir
schon in einigen Monaten starten werden, wird dann wieder nach einzelnen
orts?blichen Ausdr?cken gefragt werden!)

Wenn Sie hingegen w?nschen, dass wir Ihre E-Mail-Adresse l?schen, dann
antworten Sie bitte kurz und formlos auf diese E-Mail.

Gern k?nnen Sie diese E-Mail wieder an Freunde oder Bekannte aus Ihrem Ort
weiterleiten ? das w?rde uns sehr helfen. Je mehr Antworten wir bekommen,
desto besser.

Nochmals vielen Dank f?rs Mitmachen, frohes Fest und ? wenn Sie m?gen ?
viel Spa? beim Ausf?llen!

f?r die Projektgruppe

Prof. Dr. Stephan Elspa?
Universit?t Augsburg
Lehrstuhl f?r Deutsche Sprachwissenschaft
Universit?tsstr. 2
D-86135 Augsburg

Dr. Robert M?ller
Universit? de Li?ge
D?partement de Langues et Litt?ratures germaniques
Place Cockerill, 3
B-4000 Li?ge

www.uni-augsburg.de/alltagssprache
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 00:06:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:06:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.160633.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Hi, everyone!

Jacqueline, you wrote:

Hello Lowlanders, I was just thinking when I got Ron's Holliday message that
I know very little about what is iconic for this part of the year in other
cultures. Wotan had his mighty oak and maybe mistletoe already. For the
people in the Northern hemisphere the oaks were felled and replaced with "Oh
Tannenbaum" and lately I have run into many a "Hanukka bush". But what other
cultural icons are there? Solstices were easily observed even by people
without modern technology. So there must be other signs around.


Here are tidbits of what I have learned about this over the years:

Among pre-Christian Germanic tribes, Winter Solstice celebrations often
involved various fire rituals designed to provoke the return of the sun for
another cycle.

In wooded areas, trees on hilltops would be set alight. Apparently, this led
to the development of the Christmas tree.

On the coast, large bonfires used to be lit, and rituals used to be
performed around them, also to entice the sun back. A relic of this is the *
biikebrennen* ("beacon burning") in Northern Friesland.

In wooded areas, alternatively, or in addition, large wheels clad in
vegetation would be set alight and rolled down hillsides. This may have led
to the development of the Advent wreath and the name "Yule" which means
'wheel':

   - Old Frisian *hw?l, fi?l*
   - Old English *hweogl*
      -    > English, Scots *wheel*
   - Old Norse *hv?l, hvel, hj?l*
      -    > wheel: Icelandic, Faroese *hj?l*, Danish, Norwegian *jul*,
      Swedish *hjul*
      -    > Christmas: Icelandic, Faroese *j?l*, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish
      *jul*
      -    > English "Yule", Scots: *Yuil*, Finnish *joulu*, Estonian* j?ulu
      *
   - Germanic: **hwela > *hwegwula, *hwehula*


I consider it quite possible that the lighting of the doused Christmas
pudding and the rituals surrounding it in Britain are derivatives of the
ancient fire rituals.

Also, certain cleansing rituals used to lead up to Yule, designed to remove
evil spirits before the sun's return. Apparently, relics of this is noisy
stomping and singing throughout the home at Christmas in Scandinavia,
various mummers festivals in Allemannic-speaking areas, and New Year's
cleaning rituals in various parts of Europe.

Of course, fire also plays a cleansing role in many other Eurasian
traditions, and this may well be connected with the mentioned European
rituals as well.

Thanks for the Yuletide descriptions that just rolled in and are posted
below!

And, of course, there is the Jewish Hanukkah (?????) tradition which roughly
"coincides" with other festivals of light in the Northern Hemisphere's
darkest time of the year. The official religious explanation is that it
commemorates the rededication of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem at the time of
the Maccabean Revolt of the 2nd century BCE. It is observed for eight
nights, every night an additional light being lit on a *hanukiah* (?????), a
candelabra (*menorah* ?????) specifically set aside for Hanukkah. Roughly,
the story told about it is that at the rededication there was only enough
olive oil to light a lamp for one night, by the flame actually lasted eight
days.

I truly wish you all wonderful days in the company of people you love.
Whatever you do, enjoy it!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Jacqueline asked about iconic traditions

Here for our family a Christmas tree with decorations given each year to
each child so that a whole life time of memories hang on the tree: somewhat
depleted now since our 3 children have left home and taken their own
personal decorations with them. But still great joy to see them again when
visiting their homes ( as I did this afternoon and saw 30 years of
decorations on my daughter's tree. We had a happy few minutes recalling
where or why each one had been bought.)

Carrot and parsnip mash with the turkey

A christmas pudding well-lit with warm brandy being carried clockwise round
the table and GREAT disappointment if the flames die before the carrier (
usually me) completes the circle and sits down.

For decorations we bring in evergreens - holly and ivy and fir in the main
with the odd glass bauble as well.

A Christmas carol concert sometime during the weeks before Christmas

The Christmas Carols from Kings College at 3p.m. on Christmas Eve to
accompany the cooking in the kitchen and home made brandy butter with the
pudding and lots of cream!

Mmmmm I can't wait!

very best wishes to all

Heather

----------

From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

On 22/12/2008, at 5:23 AM,  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>  wrote:


From:
Subject: Holdiays

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy holidays to all of you that celebrate them!

Happy Fourth Advent to all Western Tradition Christians among you! (I *
believe* my count is correct.)

Last evening our church held a very moving Celtic style service based on
Advent themes.


Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns


----------

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

Leve Ron,

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy holidays to all of you that celebrate them!

Happy Fourth Advent to all Western Tradition Christians among you! (I *
believe* my count is correct.) Also, beginning this week, merry Christmas! I
hope all of you were mostly nice and only a little bit naughty.

Happy first day of Hanukka to all our Jewish Lowlanders! May those lamps and
candles shine forever!

Happy Yule and Litha to you Pagans, and, correspondingly, happy Alban
Arthuan and Alban Heruin (Alban Hefin) respectively to you Celticists! (We
are talking about Winter Solstice in the Northern and Summer Solstice in the
Southern Hemisphere.)

Traditions can lead to unexpected quirks. Both my family and my wife's
family are Lutherans. I turned Seventh-Day-Adventist some 10 years ago. My
wife joined me soon after marriage. Basically our church is a Baptist
church. The most characteristic difference to Baptists (and to most other
Christian denominations) is that we take the Sabbath command in the Ten
Commandments the way it is written in the Bible: our weekly holiday is on
Saturday and not on Sunday.

We do have an "Adventskranz" (whats that in English?) on our kitchen table.
The story goes that it was invented here in Hamburg by Johann Hinrich
Wichern in a children's home as a countdown to Christmas.

Actually I do not know whether other Adventists make Advent wreaths (OK, I
looked up the word in the meantime) but my wife likes making them and for
our little children (aged 1 to 6) it definitely is a good countdown to
Christmas.

But what do you do when you celebrate Sabbath instead of Sunday... We then
decided to light the next candle one day earlier than our fellow Lutherans,
on the Saturday before each Advent Sunday. It is the third year we have an
Advent wreath and it is the third year we do this in this way, so this has
become our own family tradition.  (We are still using our fist set of
candles, nice, big orange ones!) Which reminds me that I recently heard an
American Buddhist state that only those who embody a tradition have the
right to change it.

Hartlich Gr?ten,

Heiko
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 01:49:03 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:49:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.21 (05) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.DEC.2008.174903.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 December 2008 - Volume 05
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

Beste Heiko,

You wrote:

Leve L???d,

heute habe ich eine Mailbenachrichtigung ?ber den "Atlas zur deutschen
Alltagssprache" bekommen.

Thanks a bunch for the interesting link.



A number of Southern Dutch linguistic features seem to be in use in Southern
German as well (and not so much in Northern German/Standard Dutch):



   - Ich hab kein geld *f?r* ein Auto zu kaufen ~ Ik heb geen geld *voor* een
   auto te kopen (B)
   - Ich habe jetzt noch keinen Hunger *nicht** *~ Ik heb nu nog geen honger
   *niet* (B)
   - Denken *auf* etwas ~ peinzen *op* iets
   - Peter hat ein Kotelett *wollen essen* ~ Peter heeft een kotelet *willen
   eten*
   - *Lang* das nicht *an* ~ iemand *aanlangen* = iemand aanraken > iemand
   verkrachten (B)
   - schutten ~ shotten (= voetballen) (B)
   - Nachtk?stchen ~ nachtkaske (B)
   - Nastuch ~ neusdoek (B)



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:34:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:34:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.043410.0800.>

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From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]

Just for to be correct,

in Estonian orthography neither the palatalization nor the differentiation
between long and overlong syllables are in most cases (except of, for
example, k, p, t on the border of syllables in case of quantity
differentiation) not represented in the regular orthography, both are
phonologically relevant features. Quite regularly Genitive and
Partitive/accusative of a nomen differ only in quantity
(long/overlong-opposition).  (Native) reader in first instance has to
understand the text, then only he/she knows, how to pronounce the word-forms
in ambivalent (homographic) cases.

Mari Sarv

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the
regular orthography does all that is required to know the pronunciation,
unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is the case for instance
in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian, Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:37:32 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:37:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.22 (02) [E]
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From: "wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: Happy HANNUKAH..

 From wim verdoold

wkv at home.nl

netherlands

Hanukkah

Kislev 24th until Tevet 2nd.
This year Hanukkah begins the night of December 21st.

The Feast of Dedication" or Hanukkah, -- you will not find this Holiday in
Lev. 23 with the seven Feasts of the Lord. But we find it in John 10:22 and
other places as well. I think it may be necessary to do a little history
here before going on; this will not be a history lesson, just a little
background.

The time was around 167 BC or, if you're Jewish--BCE.  Prior to this date a
young ruler named Alexander the Great, ruled the entire ancient world.  This
period of time is referred to as "the Hellenistic period" (Greeks).  His
untimely death caused a power struggle and four of his generals split up the
kingdom.  The one that ended up with Israel was Antiochus IV.  This new
Ruler of Israel commanded everyone to convert to Hellenism (Greek Metrology)
and the Greek values that he held. Many did, even many of the Jews of the
land because they found it to be a very civilized way of life.

But, there were those Jews who held close to the Torah and God's way of
worship and refused to embrace Hellenism. In fact, Antiochus gave the Jews
an ultimatum, to either give up their distinctive customs, such
as worshipping on the Sabbath (Saturday), Circumcision, and Kosher Laws, or
die.

One of the first things Antiochus did was to desecrate the Holy Temple.  He
ordered the utensils, such as the Menorah, Altar, and Table to be defiled
and torn down.  Then to be certain that he had accomplished his job, he
ordered a pig to be sacrificed on the holy altar. After doing all of that,
he order that a Greek god Zeus be worshiped in the Temple.

When Antiochus heard that the people were murmuring and talking about revolt
against him, he marched his troops to a town in the foothills called
Modi'in.  His plan was to erect a false god in the city and force the people
to worship it.  Modi'in was the home of a priest named Mattathias who had
five sons.  He and his sons revolted and killed the soldiers and began the
revolt against this evil ruler.  One of Mattathias's sons was Judah, and he
became the new leader and was quickly nicknamed "Maccabee" (the Hammer in
Hebrew).  To bring this piece of history to a close we will just report that
Maccabee and his men defeated the Greek armies and got rid of Antiochus.

The Maccabees now faced the task of restoring the Temple for Jewish worship
to their Holy God.  They cleansed the Temple and restored the furnishings.
There was special attention given to the Menorah, for it symbolized the
Light of God.  They restored it and when they went to light it, they found
there was a problem.  This Menorah could only be used with special oil, and
it took eight days to prepare such oil.  They found enough of this special
oil to burn only one day.  To celebrate the victory of the battle fought for
their religious liberty, they decided to light the Menorah anyway and allow
the light of God to shine forth with its glory, even if but for a day.  But
God gave them a miracle, and the oil lasted eight days, until the new oil
was made ready.  So today we have the eight days of the Feast of Dedication
"Hanukkah."  It is also why you will see a nine branch Menorah instead of
seven in most Jewish homes.  It represents the miracle of the eight days the
oil burned; the ninth branch (in the center) is the Shamash (Servant Lamp),
which represents the Messiah.

There are many customs and traditions that brings one closer to God and
understanding of His greatness associated with this holiday, but I want to
keep this as short as possible.  Each night for eight nights a candle is
lighted. The Shamash (the center) is always lit first, for it is from the
Messiah that all light flows.  It is then used to light each candle for the
eight nights.  Blessing is said and songs about Hanukkah sung. Gifts are
given to the children each of the eight nights.  During the lighting of the
Shamash and the other candles are lit with the Shamash, the following
blessings are said. I will try to write the Hebrew in English letters for
you, I hope I do it correctly.

A little advice in lighting the candles, you place them in the Menorah from
right to left, but you light them with the Shamash  from left to right.

BARUCH ATAH ADONAI ELOHENU MELECKH HA-OLAM, ASHER KIDSHANU B'MITZVOHTAV
L'HADLEEK NER, SHEL CHANUKKAH.

Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who has set us apart
by your commandments and commanded us to kindle the light of Hanukkah.

So after lichting the candles and singing the Hanukkah songs, you set down
for a festive meal, each night for eight nights.

So I will conclude with one Jewish recipe for "Latkes" or to put it more
simply "Potato Pancakes."

Ingredients:
2      Eggs
3      Cups grated, drained potatoes
4      Tbls. Grated onion
? tsp. Pepper
2      Tbls. Cracker or matzah meal
? cup oil or butter

Directions:

Beat the eggs and add the potatoes, onions, salt (to taste), pepper, and
meal. Heat half the oil or butter in a frying pan and drop the potato
mixture into it by tablespoon.  Fry until browned on both sides. Keep
pancakes hot until all are fried and add more oil or butter as required.
Serve with Applesauce or sour cream. Serves 8.

Shalom, and Hag Same'ach, (Happy Holiday) Jerry Golden

Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never
suffer the righteous to be moved.
Psalms 55:22 KJV
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:40:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:40:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.22 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.044014.0800.>

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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.21 (05) [E/German]

Van Wim verdoold

wkv at hom,e.nl

zwolle  netherlands

Hoi,

Wat ik me afvraag,

Kan het zijn dat deze vormen zijn ontstaan door Franse invloed?

Wie kan hier genoeg Frans?

Prettige feestdagen,

wim

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:45:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:45:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.044518.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]

> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]
>
[...]


> We do have an "Adventskranz" (whats that in
> English?) on our kitchen table.
> The story goes that it was invented here in Hamburg by
> Johann Hinrich
> Wichern in a children's home as a countdown to
> Christmas.

Heiko,

Once upon a time I tried to find out more about the history of the
Adventskranz, and I think we cannot say that Wichern [ab. 150 years ago]
invented the Adventskranz.
But as Wichern was very active as a pedagogue he may have made it very
popular.

However, he may have been the inventor of the practice to light a candle on
the Adventskrans for each new day.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.21 (01) [E]

.....Solstices were easily observed even by people without modern
technology....



Well, not that easily. The sunrise and sunset positions vary very little day
to day around the Solstices (that's what it means: "Sun stands still").
Without magnification and instrumented scales, you'd be doing well to pin it
down to within a few days. Equinoxes on the other hand, the sun seems to
race around the horizon, so they are fairly easy to define once you've
worked out which way east is, which isn't hard.  That is why so many
traditional New Years begin near them. But not *on* them; the sun doesn't in
fact rise in the east on the equinoxes, unless you consider halfway up to be
"sunrise" - and then only if we didn't have an atmosphere!



Paul Finlow-Bates.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 12:41:34 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:41:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.22 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.044134.0800.>

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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.21 (05) [E/German]

Van Wim verdoold

wkv at hom,e.nl

zwolle  netherlands

Hoi,

Wat ik me afvraag,

Kan het zijn dat deze vormen zijn ontstaan door Franse invloed?

Wie kan hier genoeg Frans?

Prettige feestdagen,
wim

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 17:00:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:00:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.090019.0800.>

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From: caennmohr at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.18 (01) [E

Just for the record, I also frequently receive duplicates of postings.
After reading Ron's response, I thought I should let it be known, but
decided to read some other postings first, and sure enough, in that batch of
postings (from the 19th), there were duplicates.  Out of a batch of perhaps
6 or 7 postings, 1 or 2 will be duplicates, but there doesn't seem to be any
apparent consistency or reason. I just assumed someone inadvertently had
sent it out twice. This has been going on since I re-joined this past
summer.  Hope this helps...

Carolyn Wood

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mailings

Thanks a lot, Carolyn.

Since duplicate mail delivery appears to be pretty common I am letting our
good hosts at LINGUIST know. Perhaps the problem can be easily solved.

It's nice to hear from you again, Carolyn.

Happy Holidays!

Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 18:34:30 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:34:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.103430.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (04) [E]

Paul says: The sunrise and sunset positions vary very little day to day
around the Solstices (that's what it means: "Sun stands still"). Without
magnification and instrumented scales, you'd be doing well to pin it down to
within a few days. Equinoxes on the other hand, the sun seems to race around
the horizon, so they are fairly easy to define once you've worked out which
way east is, which isn't hard.  That is why so many traditional New Years
begin near them. But not *on* them; the sun doesn't in fact rise in the east
on the equinoxes, unless you consider halfway up to be "sunrise" - and then
only if we didn't have an atmosphere!

Thanks Paul. 1. It is true that solstice means "Sun stands still" and I
should have known that.

2. I asked my Mother once ( I must have been eight years old or so ) "Why is
it that not everybody celebrates New     year on the same day?. She did not
know the answer and I never thought about it again. Not very smart!

3. Have a nice Christmas and New Year. Jacqueline

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 18:32:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:32:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2008.12.22 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.103223.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Dear Lowlanders,

Our Arend Victorie sent me a Christmas video poem in Drenthe Low Saxon for
all of us, and I have posted it in his corner of our Gallery:

http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/victorie_karstfeest.php

Thanks, Arend, and happy Holidays to you and yours as well!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 22 19:18:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:18:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.111812.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Orthography
>
> Sandy,
>
> In this context, if not all contexts, I meant by "learners" everyone
> that learns a new word or expression. This can be a second-language
> learner or a native speaker learner, or a researcher. If the native
> orthography is inadequate to tell the learner the pronunciation then a
> secondary system needs to be utilized in any reference work worth
> consulting.

So are you saying that stress should be marked in everyday Russian
orthography for the sake of native speakers as well?

That vowels should always be written in Arabic?

> No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the
> regular orthography does all that is required to know the
> pronunciation, unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is
> the case for instance in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian,
> Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.

I don't know all those languages but I do (or I should probably say "did
once"!) know Czech. As usual, generalised statements only seem to hold
water until we run into a language I'm familiar with.

An important point about Czech, I think, is that the sounds of the
language lend themselves to a simple orthographic system: it has the
five basic vowels, long or short, and a few diphthongs. The stress is
almost completely regular (well, at least learners won't run into too
many problems if they assume that it is).

It's true that Czech orthography is reasonably regular. I think it's
true what you say: if you see a word you can pronounce it, although the
rules for getting the voicings and devoicings right are at the level
where this seems easy to native speakers but not to true learners.

As for the other way round, it's not at all true that if you hear a word
in Czech you'll know how to write it, as evinced by the many mistakes in
"greengrocers' Czech" around Prague, particularly with respect to the
u-circle, voicings and devoicings and consonantal prepositions.

And not every language lends itself to orthographic purity so easily.
There's the objection in English that it's not easy to devise an
orthography that will work for all English speakers, as I've been
saying, but it's worse than that. In English (and to a slightly lesser
extent in Scots), people using different dialects perceive unstressed
vowels to have been dropped and others pronounce them. Unstressed vowels
tend to be pronounced as a schwa, making it difficult to decide how to
spell a word from the sound of it alone, and this varies widely too. And
then again their vowel and diphthong systems clash.

I think this sort of thing is the motivation for hanging on to
etymological roots in orthographic systems.

So no, I don't count natives filling in their knowledge of the language
with a few new words learned from time to time count as "learners". The
fact that some reference works aren't good enough is no reason to add
stuff to the orthography itself. The only improvements needed are in the
reference works.

I also discount language researchers: they should be in the field, not
in the library  :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Sandy:

So are you saying that stress should be marked in everyday Russian
orthography for the sake of native speakers as well?

That vowels should always be written in Arabic?


No, Sandy. What I mean is that the full orthography or added auxiliary
notation should be shown as a minimum for key words or new vocabulary items
in reference material, which is what is done in all good dictionaries and
textbooks.

All my Russian dictionaries show stress assignment in all keywords and all
Russian textbooks show stress assignment at least with the introduction of
new words. My Hebrew and Arabic reference and teaching material show the
vowels, while not in all texts, in all vocabulary introductions.

Dictionaries and encyclopedias meant to be for native speakers as well ought
to have pronunciation help for keywords as well, because native speakers,
too, don't necessarily know the pronunciation of spelled words that are new
to them. All better English ones have this.

If ordinary spelling does not fully indicate it, pronunciation ought to be
shown in some other way in reference and teaching material.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 00:21:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:21:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.162124.0800.>

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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]

The only thing in my submission about the Lowlands is that it is in English,
as were the preponderance of Christmas carols sixty of us sang here last
night.



About 1935 I moved to Dolgeville, NY, named for and by Alfred Dolge, an
immigrant German piano manufacturer, who set up shop, exploiting the local
water power coming down from the Adirondack Mountains. He also set up a
system of forestry, harvesting only the oldest and best trees for piano
sounding boards. That system of forestry is still in effect and has been
taken as a world model for last word, ecological forestry.



Sorry, I'll get to the point... As a kid in Dolgeville, I loved going
around caroling to the old and sick. The best part was that the German
families regaled us with indescriptibly good cookies and sweets.



So now every year we carol to ourselves and feed ourselves--US
*gringos,*Australian, Austrian, British, Cuban, Dutch, Mexican,
Nigerian, Phillipine,
Puerto Rican, Russian, Ukrainian...others have moved away...



"Tis the season to be jolly!" Live it up!



Jorge Potter

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 00:22:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:22:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.162221.0800.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]

The only thing in my submission about the Lowlands is that it is in English,
as were the preponderance of Christmas carols sixty of us sang here last
night.

About 1935 I moved to Dolgeville, NY, named for and by Alfred Dolge, an
immigrant German piano manufacturer, who set up shop, exploiting the local
water power coming down from the Adirondack Mountains. He also set up a
system of forestry, harvesting only the oldest and best trees for piano
sounding boards. That system of forestry is still in effect and has been
taken as a world model for last word, ecological forestry.

Sorry, I'll get to the point... As a kid in Dolgeville, I loved going
around caroling to the old and sick. The best part was that the German
families regaled us with indescriptibly good cookies and sweets.

So now every year we carol to ourselves and feed ourselves--US
*gringos,*Australian, Austrian, British, Cuban, Dutch, Mexican,
Nigerian, Phillipine,
Puerto Rican, Russian, Ukrainian...others have moved away...

"Tis the season to be jolly!" Live it up!
Jorge Potter

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 00:25:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:25:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.22 (09) [D]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.162518.0800.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Wim,



Je schreef:

Wat ik me afvraag,

Kan het zijn dat deze vormen zijn ontstaan door Franse invloed?

Wie kan hier genoeg Frans?

Ik weet niet zeker of je het hebt over woorden en zinsconstructies in
Zuidelijk Nederlands die ook schijnen voor te komen in Zuidelijk Duits;
alwaar ik gisteren over berichtte.



Als dat het geval is: Franse invloed is in het Zuiden uiteraard nooit weg te
cijferen, hoewel de situatie me wat ingewikkelder lijkt.



Laat me het lijstje even aflopen:

   - Ich hab kein geld *f?r* ein Auto zu kaufen ~ Ik heb geen geld *voor* een
   auto te kopen: hier is invloed uit de Romaanse wereld merkbaar, alwaar ook
   "pour"/"per" gebruikt wordt in deze constructie, zelfs tot in een gebied ten
   zuiden van Wenen.
   - Ich habe jetzt noch keinen Hunger *nicht** *~ Ik heb nu nog geen
   honger *niet*. Reduplicatie van deze aard lijkt zich vooral in Beieren
   (tot Wenen) te concentreren. Bij mijn weten bestaat zoiets in het Romaans
   niet. Misschien een relict uit een Keltisch substraat?
   - Denken *auf* etwas ~ peinzen *op* iets: Frans/Italiaans verbindt
   "penser"/"pensare" vooral aan "?", "de" of "a". Niet aan "sur/su". Zuidelijk
   Duitsland, vooral in Oostenrijk en Zuid-Tirol.
   - Peter hat ein Kotelett *wollen essen* ~ Peter heeft een kotelet *willen
   eten: *Vermits deze volgorde ook Noord-Nederlands is (maar niet
   Noord-Duits) lijkt Franse invloed een beetje gezocht. Zwitsers Duits
   gebruikt echter ook de Nederlandse volgorde, wat dan toch in Franse richting
   zou kunnen wijzen.
   - *Lang* das nicht *an* ~ iemand *aanlangen* = iemand aanraken > iemand
   verkrachten (B). Het gaat me hier over de oppositie fassen/langen. Vatten
   wordt in Zuidelijk Nederlands bij mijn weten nooit in letterlijke zin
   gebruikt. Wel wordt het overdrachtelijk gebezigd (vatten/vaten = geestelijk
   (be)grijpen). Langen daarentegen, wordt in nogal wat combinaties gebruikt:
   langen = geven, aflangen = afnemen, afstapelen (bij kaartspel), aanlangen =
   verkrachten...Telkens is de achterliggende idee "het strekken van de arm om
   iets te grijpen". Zo ook in Zuidelijk Duitsland lijkt het.
   - schutten ~ shotten (= voetballen): Engelse invloed, I guess *s*. Toch
   wel wat verwonderlijk dat enkel Duitstalig Zwitserland de Zuidnederlandse
   lijn "volgt".
   - Nachtk?stchen ~ nachtkaske: Ook Noord-Nederland doet hier met Beieren
   en Oostenrijk mee. Geen Nachttisch/nachtdis of iets dergelijks, zoals in de
   rest van Duitsland, maar wel nachtkast(je). Lijkt me niet op conto van de
   Romaanse wereld te schrijven.
   - Nastuch ~ neusdoek: De Brabantse woorden "neusdoek" en "snutdoek" (>
   snurk) (>< zakdoek, Taschentuch) komen eveneens voor in Duitstalig
   Zwitserland, Beieren en Oostenrijk. Geen Romaanse invloed. Denk persoonlijk
   dat het Nastuch/Schneuztuch-gebied vroeger veel groter moet geweest zijn,
   maar dat recentelijk Taschentuch opgerukt is vanuit het Noorden.
   - kehren/fegen: In grote lijnen is "fegen"/"vegen" Noordelijk en
   "kehren"/"keren" Zuidelijk. (Zuid)-Brabants, met zijn voorkeur voor "keren"
   sluit hier bij het Zuiden aan.


Waar er wel sprake kan zijn van ontlening uit de Romaanse wereld, gaat het
voor mij niet altijd over eenrichtingsverkeer. Het kan ook zo zijn dat een
bepaalde uitdrukking of zegswijze Frankisch van aard is, zich vervolgens
geconsolideerd heeft in het vroege "Frankenrijk", om dan eeuwen nadien toch
terug ingang te vinden in de grensgebieden.

Daarom ook dat ik het spijtig vind dat een dergelijk grootschalig
dialectproject zich politiek te correct gedraagt. Dat wil zeggen dat men w?l
ge?nteresseerd is in medewerking uit Zwitserland, Oostenrijk en ook uit
Duitstalig Belgi?, maar niet in Elzasserduits of Nederlands. Meer specifiek
betekent dit bijvoorbeeld dat men w?l mensen uit het Belgische Eupen wil
bevragen, maar geen uit de naburige gemeenten Blieberg of Voeren, hoewel
deze dialectologisch een continu?m vormen. Wetenschappelijk onverantwoord.



Vriendelijke groetjes,



Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 01:05:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:05:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.22.DEC.2008.170542.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Orthography
>

> If ordinary spelling does not fully indicate it, pronunciation ought
> to be shown in some other way in reference and teaching material.

I remember owning a Dutch-English English-Dutch dictionary where the
English-Dutch half gave the English pronunciations but the Dutch-English
half didn't give the Dutch pronunciations. Perhaps one of the main
reasons for me skipping Dutch at a time when I was trying to learn as
many languages as possible!

I agree that there are languages where a pronouncing dictionary isn't
absolutely necessary (Italian and Welsh spring to mind), but Dutch isn't
one of them!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Italian and Welsh orthographies are pretty close to be phonemically based,
but then have flaws also.

Welsh orthography does not distinguish long and short "y" (the long version
being written with a circumflex in better older dictionaries and textbooks).

In Italian, unpredictable stress is inconsistently marked, being unmarked
particularly often in proper names (e.g. *Bartoli* should be *B?rtoli*).
Except in word-final position (where they are written *?* vs *?* and *?* vs
*?*) tense [e] and [o] are not distinguished from their lax counterparts [?]
and [?] respectively, phonemic differences that occur only in stressed
syllables.

Russian stress assignment, which is unpredictable, has important
ramifications in that unstressed syllables undergo more vowel reduction the
farther away they are from the stressed syllable, which in the case of /o/
involves unrounding. This can make words sound very different, often
unrecognizable to native speakers, if the wrong syllable is stressed. This
is why it is really important that the learner be given stress assignment
information, and the native speaker too in cases of newly learned words and
names. I would expect to find it in all reference and teaching material and
am therefore pleased that in this regard the Russian team plays an exemplary
role in the Wikipedia family with its predominance of sloppiness when it
comes to orthography and phonology.

Unfortunately, this sort of sloppiness predominates among all sorts of
on-line dictionaries as well. Try to find a Hebrew or Arabic dictionary with
vowel diacritics, for instance! If I as a non-native speaker look for Hebrew
or Arabic words in dictionaries I expect to find them spelled with vowel
diacritics. How else would I know how to pronounce them? Well, I guess I
could go to printed dictionaries to find out what the vowels of found words
are. But what good is the on-line dictionary then except for native speakers
that know a given word already? In that case I may as well go straight to
printed dictionaries, most of which do provide vowel diacritics. Online you
can even find Polynesian language dictionaries without vowel length
diacritics, in languages in which use of these diacritics is mandatory! ("I
don't know how to type those vowel letters with macrons. Ah, well ... I
s'pose I'll just ignore them then ... never mind that I'm presenting a
dictionary.")

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 15:41:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:41:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.23.DEC.2008.074158.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (10) [E]

Sandy: you make the following remark about the D/E?E/D dictionary.

I remember owning a Dutch-English English-Dutch dictionary where the
English-Dutch half gave the English pronunciations but the Dutch-English
half didn't give the Dutch pronunciations. Perhaps one of the main
reasons for me skipping Dutch at a time when I was trying to learn as
many languages as possible!

After the Dutch "Golden Age" in the 17th century, when many English speaking
people were interested in learning to speak Dutch, the interest gradually
waned and most D/E ? E/D dictionaries were made for Dutch people who did
want to learn English. Most of them were printed in the Netherlands,
although often written by a combination of English, American and Dutch
authors. In the last 20 years there has been a renewed interest in the Dutch
language on the part of a younger generation of learners who either have
Dutch ancestors or were interested in what they considered to be the freedom
to be who you are in the Netherlands. Van Dale has recently published a
dictionary which is especially geared to expats. The whole thing is on CD.
The Dutch pronunciation is also given.

http://www.expatica.com/nl/essentials_moving_to/essentials/new-dutch-dictionary-speaks-to-expats-1856.html?ppager=2.
There is also a paper Dictionary issued by Routledge in England as well as
the US. I have heard that it is based on one of the Dutch dictionaries, but
that the Dutch pronunciation has been added. The author is N. Osselton.

Maybe you are still interested? Jacqueline
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 15:44:31 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:44:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.23 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.23.DEC.2008.074431.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]

On 23/12/2008, at 10:22 AM, Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.21 (04) [E]

So now every year we carol to ourselves and feed ourselves--US
*gringos,* Australian,
Austrian, British, Cuban, Dutch, Mexican, Nigerian, Phillipine, Puerto
Rican, Russian, Ukrainian...others have moved away...

"Tis the season to be jolly!" Live it up!

not in on emajor shopping mall here in Brisbane alas.

Yesterday the local Presbyterian Church Choir was singing carols when
management demanded they leave as their songs were TOO RELIGIOUS !

Folk like that believe Jesus should be thrown out of the manger and replaced
by Rudolph !Bah ! Humbug !!

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 19:42:15 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:42:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Mailings" 2008.12.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.23.DEC.2008.114215.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mailings

Dear Lowlanders,

Susan Smith of LINGUIST (our list server hosts) responded to our reports of
duplicate mail delivery.

As you can see (below) she and I suspect the same cause.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Dear Ron,
I checked the logs for the 19th, when Carolyn mentions that she saw a
duplicate posting.  They look fine, nothing out of the ordinary... I didn't
see any duplicates in the archives, which leads me to think that the problem
isn't happening on listserv's end.
Here's some possible causes that were mentioned in the Listserv Owner's
mailing list archives:

"The subscriber's email service reports a temporary delivery failure to the
LISTSERV mail handler (which will retry later) but actually accepted the
mail. Some spam-defense strategies sometimes work like this."
(Listserv said that all of the delivery errors on the 19th were not
permanent, however I guess this scenario could have occurred, because a
permanent error would mean the message was never delivered.)

I found this also: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/lsv-faq.stm#_Toc196887298

It's all pretty involved, however it sounds like the problem probably has to
do with the recipients' mail providers, so I'm not sure if it's a big enough
problem to get into contacting their providers etc.  If you had copies of
some of the duplicated messages, I could look at their headers to see where
the problem is occurring (or try to see, anyways).  I hope this makes sense,
although it's not terribly helpful.  Let me know if there's anything more I
can do, or if you'd like me to look at some of the duplicate messages.

Happy Holidays!
-Susan

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 23 23:18:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:18:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.23 (04) [E]
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (10) [E]

> > From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Orthography

> Italian and Welsh orthographies are pretty close to be phonemically
> based, but then have flaws also.
>
> Welsh orthography does not distinguish long and short "y" (the long
> version being written with a circumflex in better older dictionaries
> and textbooks).

I wouldn't call the Welsh thing a flaw, at least not with respect to
modern Welsh.

Rather, it follows the change in pronunciation when the regular stress
(stress is regularly on the penultimate syllable in Welsh) is displaced
due to the addition of a suffix.

The <y> in Welsh (southern Welsh as I'm familiar with it) is
pronounced /I/ when unstressed but /A/ when stressed (I need to set up
something to do IPA instead of falling back on SAMPA in this day and
age!), so for example, when we pluralise "mynydd" /'mAnID/ (mountain) we
get "mynyddion" /mIn'ADjon/.

So although the <y> represents two sounds it's entirely predictable
because the stress is predictable. And yet there's no changing of the
spelling of the root, which I think is quite neat.

In Welsh the circumflex is used when the stress falls on a syllable
other than the penultimate, to mark the stressed syllable. This is rare
and tends to happen in compound words where phrasal stress is used
rather than lexical stress, eg, "cwm bran" > (the town of) "Cwmbr?n".

Y-circumflex is a different thing, where a few common words such as
"ty^" (house) have a different pronunciation (where I used to live, /i/)
and are thusly marked.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 24 13:48:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 05:48:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.24.DEC.2008.054825.0800.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.21 (05) [E/German]

Beste Luc,

Je schreef:

A number of Southern Dutch linguistic features seem to be in use in Southern
German as well (and not so much in Northern German/Standard Dutch):

   - Ich hab kein geld *f?r* ein Auto zu kaufen ~ Ik heb geen geld *voor* een
   auto te kopen (B)
   - Ich habe jetzt noch keinen Hunger *nicht** *~ Ik heb nu nog geen honger
   *niet* (B)
   - Denken *auf* etwas ~ peinzen *op* iets
   - Peter hat ein Kotelett *wollen essen* ~ Peter heeft een kotelet *willen
   eten*
   - *Lang* das nicht *an* ~ iemand *aanlangen* = iemand aanraken > iemand
   verkrachten (B)
   - schutten ~ shotten (= voetballen) (B)
   - Nachtk?stchen ~ nachtkaske (B)
   - Nastuch ~ neusdoek (B)

Niet al de hierboven vermelde constructies gelden voor het hele
Zuidnederlandse taalgebied.

In het Getelands is item 2 niet bekend. Men zegt er: Ich hem nu nog genen
honger. Wel kent men er, net als in andere Znl. dialecten, de dubbele
negatie. Bv. nooit niet.

Wij peizen *aan* iets.

Een bijzonder geval is *neusdoek .* De betekenis is "een grote omslagdoek".
Een zakdoek is er een *tesneusdoek, *dus een tasneusdoek.

Beste groeten,

Roger Hondshoven
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 24 19:02:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:02:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.24.DEC.2008.110209.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.17 (05) [E]

Hi Ron,



You wrote:



Personally, I don't much care what systems are used as long as they have at
least some consistency and internal integrity.



I do agree. I for myself, I'm definitely in favour of a phonemic spelling.
It's all very interesting to know that e.g. Dutch *pijl *and *peil*, which
today sound exactly the same, go back to 2 words with a different meaning
and a *different pronunciation* in the Middle Ages. The ordinary language
user does not derive any particular benefit from this knowledge. People who
do not agree will object that one and the same spelling for both words will
lead to misunderstanding, which, in my opinion, is complete nonsense. We
don't speak in single words. The meaning will become clear in the context of
a sentence. In 1946 the Spelling Commission for the Dutch language abolished
the distinction between e.ee and o/oo in open syllables as in *regen/deelen,
mogen/hooge.* But it failed, for obscure reasons, to do away with similar
distinctions between *rijk/reis, gauw/*gouw with homonynous diphthongs.



Regards,



Roger Hondshoven


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Thanks Roger. At least *one* person agrees with me. ;-)

When it comes to homophones, we don't get etymological clues in speech. Why
is it so important to get them in writing?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 24 19:17:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:17:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.12.24 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.24.DEC.2008.111707.0800.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Roger,



Je schreef:

A number of Southern Dutch linguistic features seem to be in use in Southern
German as well (and not so much in Northern German/Standard Dutch):

   - Ich hab kein geld *f?r* ein Auto zu kaufen ~ Ik heb geen geld *voor* een
   auto te kopen (B)
   - Ich habe jetzt noch keinen Hunger *nicht** *~ Ik heb nu nog geen
   honger *niet* (B)
   - Denken *auf* etwas ~ peinzen *op* iets
   - Peter hat ein Kotelett *wollen essen* ~ Peter heeft een kotelet *willen
   eten*
   - *Lang* das nicht *an* ~ iemand *aanlangen* = iemand aanraken > iemand
   verkrachten (B)
   - schutten ~ shotten (= voetballen) (B)
   - Nachtk?stchen ~ nachtkaske (B)
   - Nastuch ~ neusdoek (B)

Niet al de hierboven vermelde constructies gelden voor het hele
Zuidnederlandse taalgebied.

In het Getelands is item 2 niet bekend. Men zegt er: Ich hem nu nog genen
honger. Wel kent men er, net als in andere Znl. dialecten, de dubbele
negatie. Bv. nooit niet.

Wij peizen *aan* iets.

Een bijzonder geval is *neusdoek .* De betekenis is "een grote omslagdoek".
Een zakdoek is er een *tesneusdoek, *dus een tasneusdoek.

Klopt dat niet elk kenmerk overal in het Zuiden bekend is. Dubbele (of zelfs
driedubbele) negatie met "niet" helemaal op het einde (zoals ook in het
Afrikaans) is me bekend uit mijn eigen dialect (West-Brabants), maar ook uit
het Brabants zoals dat in de omgeving van Aarschot gesproken wordt.



Wat zakdoeken betreft is het interessant dat je "tesneusdoek" opmerkt omdat
het bij Noordduits "Taschentuch" aansluit. Een klein zakdoekje zoals dat
soms als opsmuk in het borstzakje van een vest (het zgn. "t?ske") gestoken
wordt heet bij ons een "stoefferke". Iets groter van formaat is een normale
(stoffen) zakdoek, de zgn. "neusdoek". De nog grotere hoofddoeken die al
mijn buurvrouwen vroeger droegen (en zij waren geen moslima), worden "ne
snurk" of "e snurksken" genoemd. Hierbij lijkt "snurk" uit "snutdoek" of
"snutterik" ge?volueerd te zijn.



Prettige feesten nog!



Luc Hellinckx


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

I wonder if similarities of features between Southern Dutch and Southern
German are due to the Frankish band that ends in Franconia, Northern
Bavaria..

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/images/franconian.jpg

The reason why such features are absent in the north and on the coast in the
Low Frankish area could then be due to Frisian substrata.

Regards
Reinhard/Ron
who is being snowed in again and who's "Hannumas" party is on hold because
the key guest is stuck in Chicago's O'Hare Airport for a second day in a row
with a supposed guarantee of getting on a flight as late as on Friday ... So
we're partying by phone in the meantime, and I avoid the word "shower" in
the conversations.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 25 18:33:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:33:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.25.DEC.2008.103325.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]

In 1946 the Spelling Commission for the Dutch language abolished the
distinction between e.ee and o/oo in open syllables as in *regen/deelen,
mogen/hooge.* But it failed, for obscure reasons, to do away with similar
distinctions between *rijk/reis, gauw/*gouw with homonynous diphthongs.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven

RE: well, for me they are two completely different sounds;) and I suppose
half of the other speakers of Dutch dialects here still distinguish between
e/ee and o/oo as well.

(but of course the spoken standard doesnt, that's true - but older
Antwerpian people will still stretch out the second one a bit longer even
when (trying to) talk "properly"!)

And ei/ij, ou/au etc. are indeed only distinguished between in a few
unsignificant village dialects, but when it comes to the original point of
the discussion this is no problem, as learners/people using dictionaries or
reference works still without any exception can deduct the pronunciation.
Only native speakers have problems here. I think in 95% of the vocabulary,
you can be certain of the pronunciation if you know how the Dutch pronounce
these certain letters. Only combinations where one grapheme can represent
two sounds without any way of knowing which of them is in English/French
loan words, mainly in cases like ou (as in douche), or ch.

If anyone can give me more than 10 Dutch words not borrowed with weird
foreign spellings where the spelling does not tell how to pronounce the
word, I'll reconsider my words.

Diederik

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 25 19:09:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:09:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.25.DEC.2008.110910.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.23 (01) [E]

> From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (10) [E]
>

>
http://www.expatica.com/nl/essentials_moving_to/essentials/new-dutch-dictionary-speaks-to-expats-1856.html?ppager=2.
There is also a paper Dictionary issued by Routledge in England as well as
the US. I have heard that it is based on one of the Dutch dictionaries, but
that the Dutch pronunciation has been added. The author is N. Osselton.
>
> Maybe you are still interested? Jacqueline

No, Dutch had its window, and it blew it  :)

Seriously, the problem these days would be with time. I've never been a
language professional and no longer have time as a hobbyist, so these
days I will only learn a language if I foresee a definite use for it.

Over the past year I've been toying with the idea of learning the
Germanic languages as a group, however, so who knows if I might not bump
into Dutch again sometime in the future?  :)

Thanks for the explanation of how a dictionary comes to be in such a
state: that puts a different perspective on it!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 25 19:23:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:23:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.25.DEC.2008.112328.0800.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.23 (02) [E]

> From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]
>

> Yesterday the local Presbyterian Church Choir was singing carols when
> management demanded they leave as their songs were TOO RELIGIOUS !
>
> Folk like that believe Jesus should be thrown out of the manger and
> replaced by Rudolph !Bah ! Humbug !!

Of course! No baby should be born in a manger. I bet it was Rudolph that
got the last room at the inn!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

I was wondering if we might yet get a final blast of vintage Sandy humor
before Sandy Day (a.k.a. Hogmaney a.k.a. New Year's Eve) as the finale of
2008 ... *et voil?*!

Nice to witness a rare banter round between two of my heroes of Scottish
wit.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I spent most of yesterday getting to and from the airport and waiting
in vain for someone to arrive. But there's progress: he's made it from
Chicago to San Francisco and is stuck there now. Here it started thawing,
and now it's snowing again ... "White Christmas"? Bah, humbug! And loads and
loads of e-mail messages awaited me back home, some of them from some of
you. Thanks.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 25 23:20:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:20:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.25.DEC.2008.152008.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (03) [E]

On 26/12/2008, at 5:23 AM, Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>wrote:

 > Folk like that believe Jesus should be thrown out of the manger and
> replaced by Rudolph !Bah ! Humbug !!

Of course! No baby should be born in a manger. I bet it was Rudolph that
got the last room at the inn!



Under NO circumstances Sandy !

Might I respectfully point out that reindeer were not Kosher.

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 26 19:57:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:57:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.DEC.2008.115733.0800.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]

I'm always reminded of a line from one of the Gospels (don't ask which one),
quoted in Anthony Burgess's "Language made Plain":

"Christ stood by the bier".

Try spelling that one phonetically!

Perhaps any Irish or French speakers can tell us how they feel about
phonetic spelling? Their orthography contains far more redundant letters
than English, and certainly than Dutch.

Paul


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hi, Paul!

"Christ stood by the bier".

Try spelling that one phonetically!


Phonetic? That would depend on the dialect; e.g.
IPA: kra?st ?st?d?t?? ?b??
 SAMPA: kraIst %stUd{dD@ "bI@`

IPA: k?a?st ?st?d?t?? ?bi??
 SAMPA: kr\`aIst %stUd{dD@ "bir\`


Phonemic (which is what we've been talking about) something like this,
depending on the system:

*Kraist stud at ?? bir.*
 or you could make it more "historical" and without "special" characters:
*Kriist stud at dhe bir.*
or with "special" characters:
*Kr?st st?d at ?**?** bir.*

In other words, written representation would equal spoken representation.
Etymological (or historical) information is not provided in speech, and it
would not be in writing either. If the system is so designed, phonemic
representation (which deals with the basic, underlying level) would be
applicable to a range of dialects, unlike phonetic representation which
(dealing with the surface, that which is produced by application of
phonological rules) is dialect-specific and is only used for scientific and
didactic purposes.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.25 (01) [E]

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]

In 1946 the Spelling Commission for the Dutch language abolished the
distinction between e.ee and o/oo in open syllables as in *regen/deelen,
mogen/hooge.* But it failed, for obscure reasons, to do away with similar
distinctions between *rijk/reis, gauw/*gouw with homonynous diphthongs.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven

RE: well, for me they are two completely different sounds;) and I suppose
half of the other speakers of Dutch dialects here still distinguish between
e/ee and o/oo as well.

(but of course the spoken standard doesnt, that's true - but older
Antwerpian people will still stretch out the second one a bit longer even
when (trying to) talk "properly"!)

And ei/ij, ou/au etc. are indeed only distinguished between in a few
unsignificant village dialects, but when it comes to the original point of
the discussion this is no problem, as learners/people using dictionaries or
reference works still without any exception can deduct the pronunciation.
Only native speakers have problems here. Diederik

I would strongly object to referring to languages or dialects as
insignificant, be they spoken by less than a thousand people or half a
million. A rural dialect deserves as much interest as that of a big city.

Of course, you're absolutely right when you state that dialect speakers
clearly distinguish between words previously written with e/ee, o/oo,
between words written with *ij* and *ei*, *au* and *ou.* But that hardly
wasn't my point when I was discussing those (weird) spelling issues. I was
looking at the subject purely from the point of view of the standard
language, and particularly the clash between pronunciation and orthography.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 26 19:54:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:54:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.DEC.2008.115458.0800.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (04) [E]

--- On *Thu, 25/12/08, Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>* wrote:
From: Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.25 (04) [E]
To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
Date: Thursday, 25 December, 2008, 11:20 PM

Under NO circumstances Sandy !

Aren't they? But they Divide the Hoof  and Chew the Cud!

Paul

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 27 06:16:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:16:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.DEC.2008.221621.0800.>

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (01) [E]

On 27/12/2008, at 5:54 AM,  Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
> wrote:

Aren't they? But they Divide the Hoof  and Chew the Cud!

So what ? Not only do they eat moss all day but no mention of them is made
in the Books of the Tanach.

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 27 22:44:50 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:44:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.DEC.2008.144450.0800.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (03) [E]

Hi Thomas, Paul & Co.



Subject: LL-L - Cuisine



Pardon me for joining this string...



You mention the seemliness of eating moss-eating reindeer in the context of
the tanakh.



The Bible does not make individual specifications *which* even-toed
ungulates are deemed fit to eat, only stipulating that such an animal must
do two things; part the hoof & chew the cud.  The pig is cited specifically
as an example of an animal which doesn't qualify. The rabbit is another; it
chews the cud but doesn't part the hoof. The horse & ass, notwithstanding a
totally vegetarian diet does neither. So also for the camel (actually camels
are primitive even-toed ungulates, but their hooves have evolved into the
toe-nail-like caps of broad desert-striding pads: Even so a desert people
would be damned fools to put them (or asses) in the dietary category.



On this subject, a reindeer is certainly kosher, but so is a giraffe.
However, those who respect this law have another hurdle to cross - they must
be slain strictly in accordance with Mosaic custum (which is carried down by
oral tradition, not in the Bible). The slaughter-beast must be humanely
killed, & with one quick stroke, using a smooth-bladed knife, razor-sharp,
twice as long as the animal's neck is broad, & the stroke of which
simultaneously severs both carotid arteries & the vagus nerve.



Moreover, according to Maimonaides any Jew may perform this office & every
Jewish household may be expected to possess this implement, so there are no
excuses for non-compliance.



Like to see that done with a giraffe.



Merry Christmas & Hannukka all!



Yrs,

Mark & Ruth

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 28 16:39:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:39:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2008.12.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.DEC.2008.083907.0800.>

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From: Roger Thijs <rogerthijs at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L Travels

I don't know whether the list accepts my yahoo address as sender, so I'm
sending this to both LL and Ron.

I'm in Bloubergstrand (a Northern suburb of Cape Town) between Xmas and New
Year. I had difficulties with finding my boutique hotel, since the maps one
finds in Europe are generally limited to downtown Cape Town (and the hotel
was 20 km to the North, along the shore).

A good and relatively recent street guide I found here:
MapStudio, Cape Town, including South-Western Cape towns, Cape Peninsula and
Winelands, 1:20.000, A14th edition, ISBN 978-1-86809-865-1, 312 pp.
For the best: one should check always for the very last edition.
Bloubergstrand is visibly expanding rapidly to the North (cf. several new
estates are in construction).

Since at many places the shore is rocky and hilly, most estates consists of
little houses, all painted white, constructed on terrace steps, so that all
or most have a nice view on table mountain about 15 miles to the South.
It can be very hot here, but most of the time there is a refreshing wind
from the South (a real paradise for surfers)

The shore is sandy though, and on low tide one can walk to several rocky
islands in see. Robben Island is in the direct West but too far away for
reaching with simple means.

There is little police here but one sees patrolling vehicles of Chubbs and
APT all the time. Most buildings also have a shield from APT or Chubbs or
both mentioning "armed response". I'm not sure what one fears over here.
Certainly not the black people since the "visible population" on streets and
strand is 95% Caucasian. It may be part of a protective culture and mindset.

Coming to languages.

A curious thing is the inconsistency with the spelling of the ou:
In Bloubergstrand it is ou, e.g. Blouberg Sands
In the suburb "Table View", a couple of mile to the South, it is aauw:
Blaauwberg road.

My perception of language use in this area (looks +90% blank, with many
tourists surfing on the strong Southern wind along the shore)):
- strong presence of Afrikaans in name giving of  streets and suburbs,
besides English. Some French, very few in native languages
- presence of Afrikaans for several dishes on menus in restaurants
- spoken languages in the street: 100 percent English heard
- black personnel in the hotel: English to all guests, something native
among each other.
- indications in airport, on roads: English only, English + Afrikaans on
older shields, as e.g. on older ATMs
- books in the shops: 95% English, 5% Afrikaans, 0% in native languages
(except for some phrase books and learner's guides)
- cards for birthdays, anniversaries etc. in the racks in shops, 80%
English, 20 % Afrikaans, 0% in native languages
- audio CDs: curiously 40% Afrikaans, 60% English in some shops, nothing in
native languages
This is just a perception by an outsider.

I have been looking for books on languages. The bookstore in the Seaside
Village shopping centre is focused on literature on cooking, but I found a
larger choice in the bookstores of a larger shopping centre, the Bayside
Centre in Table View.

The "W?reldatlas vir Suid-Afrikaners", Sunbird, Kaapstad 2008, gives in
percentages for huistale (languages used at home):
isiZulu 23,8
isiXhosa 17,5
Afrikaans 13, 3
Seshoto sa Leboa/Sepedi 9,3
Engels 8,2
Setswana 8,2
Seshoto 7,9
Xitsonga 4,5
SiSwati 2,7
Tshivenda 2,3
IsiNdbele 1,6
(ander/other 0,5)

We try to see some similarities between the 7 official languages, with a
selection from:
J Bennet & N Tsoeu, Multilingual Illustrated Dictionary, Pharos, 2006,
Besides the pictures vocabulary is listed in this order:
English, IsiZulu, Sesotho, IsiXhosa, Setswana, Afrikaans, Sepedi

Some samples:

hair, izinwele, moriri, unwele, moriri, hare, moriri p 16
nose, ikhala, nko, impumlo, nko, neus, nko p 16
hand, isandla, seatla, isandla, seatla, hand, seatla p 18
talk, -khuluma, bua, thetha, bua, praat, bolela p 25
father, ubaba, ntate, utata, rre, pa, tate p 32
mother, umama, mme, umama, mme, ma, mma p 32
brother, umfowethu, abuti, umnakwe, morwarre, broer, morwarre p 33
snake, inyoka, noha, inyoka, noga, slang, noga p. 215
tree, isihlahla, sefate, umthi, setlhare, boom, mohlare p 221
egg, iqanda, lehe, iqanda, lee, eier, lee p 241
no, cha, tjhe, hayi, nnyaa, nee, aowa p 303
I have, ngina-, ke na le, Ndine, ke dirile, ek het, ke na p 303

car, imoto, koloi, imoto, koloi, motor, koloi p 114
motorcycle, isithuthuthu, sethuthuthu, isithuthuthu, sethuuthuu, motorfiets,
thuthuthu p 114
potato, izambane, tapole, itapile, tapole, aartappel, letapola p 234
violin, ivayolini, vaoline, ivayolini, serankure, viool, baolini p. 279

Since only one term is given per language, it is not excluded that the
version of another language may also be used as synonym in a first language.

Local food has a strong Afrikaans colour, even when served in English, some
experience:

Starters

Soup of the day, a very thick creamy Pampoensop,  R34 in Ons Huisie

Salad Cajun Chicken, A large dish with Cajun spiced strips of chicken on a
bed of mixed fresh lettuce, onion rings and other vegetables, R 47 in the
Bica Caf? of the Table View "Bay Side" shopping center.

Main dishes

Ostrich bobotie: Ostrich stewed with vegetables in a pot, finished with some
mango chutney on top, and lightly-cooked vegetables on side (including red
beet), R 70 in Ons Huisie

Prego Roll, a roll with very spicy meat (very hot), R 49.50 in the Blue
Peter, Popham St.

Mussel Potjie, a dozen of mussels in half of their shell, in a kind of
terrine filled with a tick creamy garlic sauce, served with bread, R 89.95
in the Cape Town Fish Market in the Seaside Village shopping Centre.
(Seaside Village is part of a progressing expansion to the North, it is not
yet on the maps or in the guides)

Deserts

Souskuitjies: pieces of bread in a vanilla pudding, with some cinnamon on
top , R 35 in Ons Huisie

I also visited the Frituurtje serving Belgian Fries in Table View,
Regular fries with mayonnaise, a curry sausage special (frikandel with on
top onion and curry ketch-up) and a Stella beer. R 75
The fries are tasty but cut from quite small potatoes, so one gets
additionally quite some crisps of tinny parts cut at the circumference (we
call that "kepsel" in my West-Limburgish) .
Although the Frituurtje is close to the shore, it is at the backside of a
little shopping estate and not easy to find.

I will draft a list of books of interest for the group later this week
(under subject "resources"). I'm sending this from an internet caf?, since I
have problems with my portable again.

Regards,
Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 28 16:46:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:46:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.DEC.2008.084607.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2008 - Volume 02
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.27 (01) [E]

I take giraffe is out of the question then?



Paul

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (03) [E]

Thanks Mark; I replied to this thread before reading your explanation, which
clears things up nicely!



Paul

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.27 (01) [E]

Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:
> using a smooth-bladed knife, razor-sharp,
> twice as long as the animal's neck is broad

hmm, well at least they didn't say twice as long as the neck is LONG.

To quote Mark:
> Like to see THAT done with a giraffe.
[emphasis added]

Mike || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
???? || ????? || Miqueu || U C > || ?? ?? || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.) ???????? ????????? ????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????) ??????????????
? ????(????)????

----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.27 (01) [E]

> From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.26 (03) [E]
>
> Hi Thomas, Paul & Co.

> Subject: LL-L - Cuisine
[...]


> Moreover, according to Maimonaides any Jew may perform this
> office & every
> Jewish household may be expected to possess this implement,
> so there are no
> excuses for non-compliance.

> Like to see that done with a giraffe.

Mark,

Because of your infinite wisdom you certainly remember the following:

In New York there were a bunch of young jewish men [about 20 years ago] who
apparently had done their school homework very well and they had found out
that eating a giraffe would be okay for them.
But aware that rules and laws sometimes could be tricky, they first asked
the New York board of rabbi's to give their opinion.

In spite of several urgent requests the answer let wait for several years,
but satisfied all parties: they were right about eating the giraffe, but
-alas- because of the long neck a kosher slaughter of this noble animal was
not possible.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 28 17:14:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:14:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.DEC.2008.091409.0800.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.26 (02) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hi, Paul!

"Christ stood by the bier".

Try spelling that one phonetically!


Phonetic? That would depend on the dialect; e.g.

IPA: kra?st ?st?d?t?? ?b??
SAMPA: kraIst %stUd{dD@ "bI@`

IPA: k?a?st ?st?d?t?? ?bi??
SAMPA: kr\`aIst %stUd{dD@ "bir\`

*Kraist stud at ?? bir.*
or you could make it more "historical" and without "special" characters:
*Kriist stud at dhe bir.*
or with "special" characters:
*Kr?st st?d at ?? bir.*



Hi Ron,   My point, admittedly somewhat tongue-in-cheek, was what beer was
he standing by?   And my reference to Irish and French was to question why
English gets singled out for its "irrational" spelling when there are far
worse culprits out there? Those of us who have managed to learn to read and
write English aren't some sort of geniuses; we just did it. If the World is
truly desperate for an international language with a completely regular
grammar and spelling, learn Esperanto.

Paul


---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hey, Paul, mi mayt!

How about this: we could turn this into a positive by confirming that we *
are* geniuses and letting the world wonder what we could have accomplished
with the time we spent on memorizing the spelling of practically each and
every word. ;-)

Besides, I personally do not single out English for "irrational" spelling.
It has company: Tibetan and (traditionally written) Mongolian.

These spelling systems are not "irrational" at all. They are "the most
extreme cases of historical spelling." Most spelling systems are at least
somewhat historical. And that's the main problem with sound-based written
representation. Phonologies constantly change, and thus spelling would have
to be reformed periodically, even if allowance for dialectical variations
are made. But, while retaining historical elements, most of them (such as
your examples Irish and French) have predominantly predictable spelling
because the *systems* remain mostly intact.

A system such as the Chinese one avoids all this, since it is quite
independent of sound (at least nowadays). But the price you pay for this is
that you have to learn thousands of characters, a pretty large percentage of
which are pretty complex. So it pretty much boils down to the same thing ...
except that a system such as the Chinese one could, at least in theory, be
used for all languages of the world. (Not that I would advocate that, mind
you.)

Cheerio!

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 29 20:43:43 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:43:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.124343.0800.>

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From: Roger Thijs <rogerthijs at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L resources

Thanks for comments sent to me by some of the list.
I must say, reading Afrikaans newspapers as Son, Die Burger, gives no real
problems. Understanding spoken Afrikaans is an other thing, and when
(incidentally) on SABC TV, I often do not not recognize it as Afrikaans at
all. Unfortunately I have to say that fortunately everybody spreaks English
in my neighbourhood. I accidentally answered in Dutch when called on my GSM
today at noon. The caller I have to meet to-norrow replied in perfect Dutch,
with an Hollandish accent.
I must add that some caucasians here speak a kind of English, which is also
quite difficult to understand. It appears a bit alike more Northern English
dialects (Manchester???)

I promised to list some language resources I found.
Here it comes:

1 ? Afrikaans language

F.F. Odendal & R.H. Gouws
HAT
Verklarende Handwoordenboek van die Afrikaanse Taal
Vyfde uitgawe [2005], tweede druk 2007   [Eerste uitgawe = 1965]
Pearson Education South Africa, Kaapstad, www.pearsoned.co.za
xxi + 1448 pp, ISBN 978-1-868-91243-8, R 350

Dalene M?ller,
Skryf Afrikaans van A tot Z
De essensi?le gids vir taalgebruikers,
Eerste uitgawe  [2003], vierde druk 2007,
Pharos Woordeboeke, Kaapstad, www.pharos.co.za
718 pp, ISBN 978-1-86890-037-4,  R 229

Beryl Lutrin, Afrikaans handbook & study guide,
An English student's guide to Afrikaans,
(Senior Primary to Matric and Beyond)
Revised Edition [2004], reprint September 2008 [1st edition = September
1999]
Berlut Books, www.afrikaanshandbook.co.za
120 pp, ISBN 978-0-620-32584-4,  R 159

2 ? Multilingual

John Bennet & Ntuseng Tsoeu
Multilingual Illustrated Dictionary
English, IsiZulu, Sesotho, IsiXhosa, Setswana, Afrikaans, Sepedi
First edition 2006,
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town
373 pp., 978-0-7021-6712-6, R 160

Isabel Uys,
The English Afrikaans Xhosa Zulu Aid
Word Lists & Phrases in Four Languages
Second edition  [2002], Ninth Impression 2008 [First edition = 1966
Quellerie Publishers]
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town,
 xii + 195 pp, ISBN 978-1-868-90036-7,  R 113

3 ? Xhosa

Learn Xhosa with Anne Munnik, New Edition
- book
Fourth edition [2006], third impression 2008, [First edition = 1994]
Shuter & Shooter, Pietermaritzburg  www.shuters.com
xiv + 200 pp,  ISBN 978-07960-2672-9,  R 143
- CD
27 tracks, barcode 9-780796-029294, R 121

Collins Xhosa phrasebook,
First published 2008-12-28
Harper Collins Publishers, www.collinslanguage.com
256 pp, ISBN 978-0-00-726688-3, R 87

English-Xhosa Xhosa-English Dictionary
Second edition [First Printing 1998], Eleventh printing 2008
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town
iv + 81 pp (3 cols/page) , ISBN 978-1-86890-009-1, R 74.95

Afrikaans-Xhosa Xhosa-Afrikaans Woordeboek,
Tweede uitgawe, eerste druk 2005
Pharos Woordeboeke, Kaapstad
iii + 90 pp (3 cols/page), ISBN 978-1-86890-057-2,  R 54.95

4 ? Afrikaans on CD and DVD

I bought, without yet having a possibility to listen, just based on their
positioning as toppers in the shelves of the store:
- Desmond Wells, 'n Stukkie van jou hart, Hoezit Musiek, 2008, CD HOEZD88, R
99.95
- Wicus van der Merwe, hie' komme ding, Select Musiek 2004, CD SELBCD490, R
79.95
- Arno Jordaan, Beste Afrikaanse Hits, EMI esounds, CD 5099924310727, R
99.95
- Rapport, Ons sing jou taal 5, Select Musiek 2008, CD SELBCD 763, R 109.95
- Afrikaans is groot, Sluit in die jaar se grootste treffers, 2008 Coleske
Artists, DVD barcode 6-009516-607813, R 159.95
- Jacques De Coning, Afrikaans my trots, Select Musiek 2007, SELDVD 7022, R
99.95
I will listen to it when back in Belgium. Just hope it is understandable.

5 ? South-Africa, history and culture

Hermann Gikiomee & Bernard Mbenga
New History of South Africa
2007, first edition, first printing
Tafelberg Cape Town   www.tafelberg.com
x + 454 pp., ISBN 978-0-624-04359-1, R 350
 [Comment: at home I have a "Geskiedenis of SA" dating from the seventies,
dealing extensively with the language issue (recognition of Afrikaans on May
27, 1025). In the New History the subject is briefly touched on p 253, mixed
with an other issue (refusal of bilingualism by English speakers);
Interesting though is an article p 71 with title "The rise of Afrikaans".
After describing the use of Dutch as e.g. by reading the Staten bible in the
eighteenth century, the author concludes "Without the continued use of
Dutch, particularly in the church and as written medium, Afrikaans would to
all probability have been swept aside by English in the nineteenth century".
With an illustration of Afrikaans in Arabic characters, with comment "Arabic
Afrikaans Muslims were the first to use Afrikaans in printed form."]

H.W. Claassen, De geskiedenis van Boerekos 1652-1806
[kos = food]
2006, Eerste uitgawe, eerste druk,
Pretoria, Proea Boekhuis
511 pp, ISBN 1-!?919-106-4, R 99 as a special sales action
[Comment: very interesting links with European and other cooking of the
period]

W?reldatlas vir Suid-Afrikaners
2008, Eerste Suid-Afrikaanse uitgawe [eerst uitgegee as Collins World Atlas
2003, angepas in 2008]
Sunbird, Kaapstad, www.sunbirdpublishers.co.za
240 pp., ISBN 978-1-919938-95-0, R 254
[Comment: The dedicated South-African part goes from p 8 till 41
Traditional groups and languages are dealt with p. 15
For the Benelux p.72 some Flemish towns have also the French name listed as
e.g. "Roeselare (Roulers)". French towns with a Dutch name do not get the
Dutch version inversely (Li?ge, Arlon, Lille). Even bilingual municipalities
only get a French name (Enghien, Mouscron).
Cologne is listed as "Keulen (K?ln)" but Aachen has to do with German only.
The "Straat van Dover" on the map is rather called "Nauw van Cales" in
Dutch.
So unfortunately Dutch was poorly used when translating the Collins junk
into Afrikaans.]

Kevin Winter, Catherine Oelofse & Jean Borraro,
Oxford senior atlas vir Suider ? Afrika
2002, sesde druk 2008
Oxford UP Southern Africa, Kaapstad
96 pp., ISBN 978-0-19-578296-7, R 114.95
[Comment: The dedicated South-African part goes from p 4 till 37
A breakdown of the languages spoken is on p. 22
The general part has only maps of Europe p. 76 and 77, no details for the
Benelux]
Nevertheless "Ryssel (Lille)" is on the map p. 77 in both language
versions.]

South-Africa at a Glance, 2008-2009
History ? Politics ? Economy ? Trade ? Tourism ? Statistics
14th edition
Editors Inc., Greenside   www.southafricaataglance.com
240 pp (pocket size), ISBN 978-0-620-40443-3, R 59.95^
[languages p. 38
11 home languages are listed as official, the percentages below are
estimated from a diagram:
Zulu 24
Xhosa 17
Afrikaans 13
Pedi 9
Tswana 8
English 8
Sotho 7
Tsango 4
Swati 3
Venda 3
Ndebele 2]

Regards,
Roger



----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks for the great resource list, Roger. This is really great.

It shouldn't be too surprising that it is difficult, at least at first, to
understand Afrikaans, even from a Dutch-speaking perspective. I think this
is a typical situation within the group of Lowlands language, with the
exception of English to which most of us have been sufficiently exposed and
can't help being exposed to these days.

Some time ago I heard Andr? Rieux speak Limburgish on TV. I didn't look at
the subtitles. At first I understood little, in part because I expected to
hear Dutch. I watched the same clip again more than a year later and was
prepared for it being Limburgish, and I understood virtually everything. As
for Dutch, I can read anything, but I can't understand the speech of
everyone right away, speed being an important factor, but understanding
improves the longer I listen. The same applies to Afrikaans, Frisian and
Scots.

Exposure is really what it's all about. For this reason we really need more
audio material, and the amount of audio material is in fact increasing
rapidly, especially now that many broadcasting stations have on-line
representation and sites such as You Tube allow people to post video clips.

I suggest we consider updating our resources list and add a special audio
section.

Thanks again, Roger, and enjoy the rest of your stay in South Africa!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 29 20:44:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:44:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.124454.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2008 - Volume 01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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===========================================


From: Roger Thijs <rogerthijs at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L resources

Thanks for comments sent to me by some of the list.
I must say, reading Afrikaans newspapers as Son, Die Burger, gives no real
problems. Understanding spoken Afrikaans is an other thing, and when
(incidentally) on SABC TV, I often do not not recognize it as Afrikaans at
all. Unfortunately I have to say that fortunately everybody spreaks English
in my neighbourhood. I accidentally answered in Dutch when called on my GSM
today at noon. The caller I have to meet to-norrow replied in perfect Dutch,
with an Hollandish accent.
I must add that some caucasians here speak a kind of English, which is also
quite difficult to understand. It appears a bit alike more Northern English
dialects (Manchester???)

I promised to list some language resources I found.
Here it comes:

1 ? Afrikaans language

F.F. Odendal & R.H. Gouws
HAT
Verklarende Handwoordenboek van die Afrikaanse Taal
Vyfde uitgawe [2005], tweede druk 2007   [Eerste uitgawe = 1965]
Pearson Education South Africa, Kaapstad, www.pearsoned.co.za
xxi + 1448 pp, ISBN 978-1-868-91243-8, R 350

Dalene M?ller,
Skryf Afrikaans van A tot Z
De essensi?le gids vir taalgebruikers,
Eerste uitgawe  [2003], vierde druk 2007,
Pharos Woordeboeke, Kaapstad, www.pharos.co.za
718 pp, ISBN 978-1-86890-037-4,  R 229

Beryl Lutrin, Afrikaans handbook & study guide,
An English student's guide to Afrikaans,
(Senior Primary to Matric and Beyond)
Revised Edition [2004], reprint September 2008 [1st edition = September
1999]
Berlut Books, www.afrikaanshandbook.co.za
120 pp, ISBN 978-0-620-32584-4,  R 159

2 ? Multilingual

John Bennet & Ntuseng Tsoeu
Multilingual Illustrated Dictionary
English, IsiZulu, Sesotho, IsiXhosa, Setswana, Afrikaans, Sepedi
First edition 2006,
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town
373 pp., 978-0-7021-6712-6, R 160

Isabel Uys,
The English Afrikaans Xhosa Zulu Aid
Word Lists & Phrases in Four Languages
Second edition  [2002], Ninth Impression 2008 [First edition = 1966
Quellerie Publishers]
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town,
 xii + 195 pp, ISBN 978-1-868-90036-7,  R 113

3 ? Xhosa

Learn Xhosa with Anne Munnik, New Edition
- book
Fourth edition [2006], third impression 2008, [First edition = 1994]
Shuter & Shooter, Pietermaritzburg  www.shuters.com
xiv + 200 pp,  ISBN 978-07960-2672-9,  R 143
- CD
27 tracks, barcode 9-780796-029294, R 121

Collins Xhosa phrasebook,
First published 2008-12-28
Harper Collins Publishers, www.collinslanguage.com
256 pp, ISBN 978-0-00-726688-3, R 87

English-Xhosa Xhosa-English Dictionary
Second edition [First Printing 1998], Eleventh printing 2008
Pharos Dictionaries, Cape Town
iv + 81 pp (3 cols/page) , ISBN 978-1-86890-009-1, R 74.95

Afrikaans-Xhosa Xhosa-Afrikaans Woordeboek,
Tweede uitgawe, eerste druk 2005
Pharos Woordeboeke, Kaapstad
iii + 90 pp (3 cols/page), ISBN 978-1-86890-057-2,  R 54.95

4 ? Afrikaans on CD and DVD

I bought, without yet having a possibility to listen, just based on their
positioning as toppers in the shelves of the store:
- Desmond Wells, 'n Stukkie van jou hart, Hoezit Musiek, 2008, CD HOEZD88, R
99.95
- Wicus van der Merwe, hie' komme ding, Select Musiek 2004, CD SELBCD490, R
79.95
- Arno Jordaan, Beste Afrikaanse Hits, EMI esounds, CD 5099924310727, R
99.95
- Rapport, Ons sing jou taal 5, Select Musiek 2008, CD SELBCD 763, R 109.95
- Afrikaans is groot, Sluit in die jaar se grootste treffers, 2008 Coleske
Artists, DVD barcode 6-009516-607813, R 159.95
- Jacques De Coning, Afrikaans my trots, Select Musiek 2007, SELDVD 7022, R
99.95
I will listen to it when back in Belgium. Just hope it is understandable.

5 ? South-Africa, history and culture

Hermann Gikiomee & Bernard Mbenga
New History of South Africa
2007, first edition, first printing
Tafelberg Cape Town   www.tafelberg.com
x + 454 pp., ISBN 978-0-624-04359-1, R 350
 [Comment: at home I have a "Geskiedenis of SA" dating from the seventies,
dealing extensively with the language issue (recognition of Afrikaans on May
27, 1025). In the New History the subject is briefly touched on p 253, mixed
with an other issue (refusal of bilingualism by English speakers);
Interesting though is an article p 71 with title "The rise of Afrikaans".
After describing the use of Dutch as e.g. by reading the Staten bible in the
eighteenth century, the author concludes "Without the continued use of
Dutch, particularly in the church and as written medium, Afrikaans would to
all probability have been swept aside by English in the nineteenth century".
With an illustration of Afrikaans in Arabic characters, with comment "Arabic
Afrikaans Muslims were the first to use Afrikaans in printed form."]

H.W. Claassen, De geskiedenis van Boerekos 1652-1806
[kos = food]
2006, Eerste uitgawe, eerste druk,
Pretoria, Proea Boekhuis
511 pp, ISBN 1-!?919-106-4, R 99 as a special sales action
[Comment: very interesting links with European and other cooking of the
period]

W?reldatlas vir Suid-Afrikaners
2008, Eerste Suid-Afrikaanse uitgawe [eerst uitgegee as Collins World Atlas
2003, angepas in 2008]
Sunbird, Kaapstad, www.sunbirdpublishers.co.za
240 pp., ISBN 978-1-919938-95-0, R 254
[Comment: The dedicated South-African part goes from p 8 till 41
Traditional groups and languages are dealt with p. 15
For the Benelux p.72 some Flemish towns have also the French name listed as
e.g. "Roeselare (Roulers)". French towns with a Dutch name do not get the
Dutch version inversely (Li?ge, Arlon, Lille). Even bilingual municipalities
only get a French name (Enghien, Mouscron).
Cologne is listed as "Keulen (K?ln)" but Aachen has to do with German only.
The "Straat van Dover" on the map is rather called "Nauw van Cales" in
Dutch.
So unfortunately Dutch was poorly used when translating the Collins junk
into Afrikaans.]

Kevin Winter, Catherine Oelofse & Jean Borraro,
Oxford senior atlas vir Suider ? Afrika
2002, sesde druk 2008
Oxford UP Southern Africa, Kaapstad
96 pp., ISBN 978-0-19-578296-7, R 114.95
[Comment: The dedicated South-African part goes from p 4 till 37
A breakdown of the languages spoken is on p. 22
The general part has only maps of Europe p. 76 and 77, no details for the
Benelux]
Nevertheless "Ryssel (Lille)" is on the map p. 77 in both language
versions.]

South-Africa at a Glance, 2008-2009
History ? Politics ? Economy ? Trade ? Tourism ? Statistics
14th edition
Editors Inc., Greenside   www.southafricaataglance.com
240 pp (pocket size), ISBN 978-0-620-40443-3, R 59.95^
[languages p. 38
11 home languages are listed as official, the percentages below are
estimated from a diagram:
Zulu 24
Xhosa 17
Afrikaans 13
Pedi 9
Tswana 8
English 8
Sotho 7
Tsango 4
Swati 3
Venda 3
Ndebele 2]

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks for the great resource list, Roger. This is really great.

It shouldn't be too surprising that it is difficult, at least at first, to
understand Afrikaans, even from a Dutch-speaking perspective. I think this
is a typical situation within the group of Lowlands language, with the
exception of English to which most of us have been sufficiently exposed and
can't help being exposed to these days.

Some time ago I heard Andr? Rieux speak Limburgish on TV. I didn't look at
the subtitles. At first I understood little, in part because I expected to
hear Dutch. I watched the same clip again more than a year later and was
prepared for it being Limburgish, and I understood virtually everything. As
for Dutch, I can read anything, but I can't understand the speech of
everyone right away, speed being an important factor, but understanding
improves the longer I listen. The same applies to Afrikaans, Frisian and
Scots.

Exposure is really what it's all about. For this reason we really need more
audio material, and the amount of audio material is in fact increasing
rapidly, especially now that many broadcasting stations have on-line
representation and sites such as You Tube allow people to post video clips.

I suggest we consider updating our resources list and add a special audio
section.

Thanks again, Roger, and enjoy the rest of your stay in South Africa!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 29 21:36:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:36:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.133647.0800.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]

Okay, I REALLY should NOT be even LOOKING at my Lowlands List emails,
let alone be ebignpulled into replying ... I was informed that the
5-year strategic plan for our NGO which I agreed to get donde in 2
weeks when asked 3 days ago, now is being "requested" by tomorrow
morning! For a meeting with our main funder (and since lately I do not
get on well personally with the COO fo the fundign organization, I am
HAPPY to have it ready fro when our trustee (in town only for this
week) meets with him and the CEO. Even workign all night is better
than havign to sit face-to-face with ... at leats until this hissy-fit
(exaccerbated by my sharp sarcastic emaisl I am afraid but must admit)
blows over.

Anyway, a BRIEF addtion to Rogers resources list, from books I got
when i was in the opposite send of ZA a couple-three years ago:

1. Zooming in on Zulu: a Phrasebook and Much (2004) more
2. Clicking with Xhosa: a Xhosa Phrasebook. (2001)
BOTH by: Bev. Kirsch & Silvia Skorge. Cape Town: David Philip Publ.
 OKAY, the "cutE" names are the BIGGEST appeal, but they are actually
not bad "teach yourself" style books

3. HW Paul & Dm Ntusi (1983) isiXhosa. Johannesburg: Educum Uitgewers.
 A VERY nice grammar of Xhosa ... in XHosa (which for me was a big
PLUS, but for some MIGHT be seen as a hindrance)

4. DJ Lombard (1985) Inleiding tot de Grammatica van Noord-Sotho.
Pretoria: JL van Schaik.
5. LJ Louwrens (1991) Aspects of Northern Sotho Grammar. Pretoria: Via
Afrika Ltd.
 The former is advertised as "also available in English as ..."
 Unlike where Roger is staying, Hatfield, in pretoria, where i spent
the 1st adn last weeks of my 2 months plus in ZA is an EXCELLENT place
for books in "native languages" (though one migth argue that Afrikaans
IS a natiev language, ne c'est pas?) There was a van Schaik's (mayeb
THE main store?9 and a GREAT bookstore with loads of new and used
books. hatfield also has a Sunday fleamarket with plenty of books ...
though THOSE are in English and Afrikaans without exception. BUT, some
good Afrikaans bargains to be had (My Afrikaans literature is mostly
still in Japan, so I can't give you a thorough list ... only that NOT
at the fleamarket i got the two vols that have been put out so far of
Breyten Breytenbach's collected poetry. :-)))))

6. PC Taljaard & SE Bosch (1988) Handbook of isiZulu. Pretoria: JL van
Schaik.
7. PC Taljaard, JN Khuma & SM Bosch (1991) Handbook fo Siswati.
Pretoria: JL van Schaik.

many more ... but those are what i have at hand ...

OKAY, back to reprot writing. :-((((((

Mike || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
???? || ????? || Miqueu || U C > || ?? ?? || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.) ???????? ????????? ????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????) ??????????????
? ????(????)????
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 29 22:29:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:29:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.29 (04) [A/E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.142937.0800.>

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From: Tommie Cronje <tommiecronje at slingshot.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]

Hi Reinhard/Ron,

Sorry, I haven't been following the thread, so am not quite sure about why
you are in South Africa and what your mission is regarding Afrikaans. I
scanned your list and saw that two authoratitive works about Afrikaans
aren't on your list:

Die Afrikaanse Woordelys en Spelreels (Wiki says: Die *Afrikaanse woordelys
en spelre?ls* (*AWS*) is 'n publikasie van die Suid-Afrikaanse Akademie vir
Wetenskap en Kuns<http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suid-Afrikaanse_Akademie_vir_Wetenskap_en_Kuns>met
spelre?ls, 'n woordelys en 'n afkortingslys vir
Afrikaans <http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans>. Die eerste uitgawe het
in 1917 <http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917> verskyn, en dit is sedertdien
gereeld bygewerk. Die
Taalkommissie<http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taalkommissie>van die
Suid-Afrikaanse
Akademie vir Wetenskap en
Kuns<http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suid-Afrikaanse_Akademie_vir_Wetenskap_en_Kuns>stel
hierdie publikasie op met die prim?re doel om leiding te gee ten
opsigte van spelling.)

And the Tweetalige Woordeboek (Bosman). Check all the details here:
https://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/6854223/used/Tweetalige%20woordeboek%20:%20Afrikaans-Engels,%20Engels-Afrikaans

There are also a plethora of technical Afrikaans dictionaries.

This might interest you:
http://ntww1.csir.co.za/plsql/ptl0002/PTL0002_PGE157_MEDIA_REL?MEDIA_RELEASE_NO=7434395

Generally speaking www.kalahari.net is considered the best online bookstore,
although I couldn't find the Bosman dictionary there.

Hope this is useful?

Tommie Cronje

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks a lot, Tommie, and welcome to the podium!

I will add these resources as soon as I can.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 01:40:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:40:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.29 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.29.DEC.2008.174048.0800.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.29 (04) [A/E]

> And the Tweetalige Woordeboek (Bosman).

For us Afrikaans LEARNERS,
Madaleine du Plessis' Tweetalige Aanleerders-woordeboek / Bilingual
Learner's Dictionary
is a GREAT addition to any list. Loads of examples to guide us through
questions of usage, etc. and to provide just plain simple models.

(Having cut my lexicographic teeth on EXCELLENT Soviet Dictionaries
(printed on TERRIBLE paper!), I am now of the strong opinion that no
dictionary without at least TWO sample sentences illustrating each and
every sense of each and every word is worth two grains of salt.)

Mike || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
???? || ????? || Miqueu || U C > || ?? ?? || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.) ???????? ????????? ????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????) ??????????????
? ????(????)????

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Mike:

(Having cut my lexicographic teeth on EXCELLENT Soviet Dictionaries
(printed on TERRIBLE paper!), I am now of the strong opinion that no
dictionary without at least TWO sample sentences illustrating each and
every sense of each and every word is worth two grains of salt.)


I second that with a resounding voice and add to it the following:

   - plural forms (at least unpredictable ones)
   - all necessary strong verb forms (and appended paradigms of weak verbs)
   - labeling like "casual", "formal", "literary", "vulgar", etc.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Tommie Cronje <tommiecronje at slingshot.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.28 (03) [E]

And as far as music goes, the doyenne of Afrikaans music is the artist
called Laurika Rauch. Other artists that I think are original, are Herman
van den berg and Chris Chameleon.

The biggest magazine in Africa, is Die Huisgenoot. (I personally think it's
sensationalist and an insult to intelligenceL)

The hippest Afrikaans magazine is "De Kat".

Would you mind sending me a short synopsis of why you're there and what your
aims are? I might be able to help in some ways.

Alles van die beste,

Tommie
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 15:21:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:21:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "News" 2008.12.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.072136.0800.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L Update on Bombay

This is NOT a Lowlands topic, per se, but just thought maybe a SHORT
note was in order.

It is one month after the terrorist attack on Bombay / Mumbai.
Although often things are being described aS "back to normAL", in fact
it is at least equal parts "they never changed".

I am of course talkign about the life of the general populace, NOT
that of those who lost friend and family (as one of our trustees did).

As for the MOOD, it is maybe equal parts "bomb pakistan to
smithereeens before they know what hit them", fatalism, and "lynch all
politicians".


The first is because, although the the cultural and economic capital
of india, it is also the capital of Indian nationalism. Shiv Sena, MNS
(a Maharasthra for marathas regionalist party) and BJP (a political
offshoot of Shiv Sena and a nationalist, borderline Hindutva party)
are ALL strong here. (MY neighborhood, and the neighboring town of
thane are VERY strongly Shiv sena and MNS. In fact a large poster of
the head of the Shiv Sena, who is uncle to the head of the MNS, is
posted illegally just in front of my apartment, blocking the view to
the park just across the way. No one dares complain fro fear of 1)
harassment by party thugs (goons I think comes to English I think not
surprisingly from Hindi!), and 2) because they know the police are 90%
in the pockets of the above 3 groups.

The second is what we have been taught in the west is the Oriental way
of looking at life.

The third is 95% of the English press and it seems 95% of the
"westernized" (not exactly synonymous with "educated", but the two are
close) populace. (Bombay may, for those who cannot imagine, have more
English language daily newspapers than any city in the world. Some of
them quite excellent.) This week's "Sunday Indian", a weekly news
magaizine (of the Time and Newsweek variety), which comes out weekly
in English and biweekly in 13 regional and national languages and
costs just 10 rupees (about 22 US cents) so is affordable to the
average person who would be inclined to read it, had the most fiery
editorial i think i have EVER read anywhere ... calling politicians
every name in the book (but no 4-letter ones --- there are many that
are MUCH stronger that those!), and stopping a hair's breadth short of
calling for their public lynching (which may in fact be illegal).

BUT equal parts in this same English press is the message that ... and
it is our own damned fault. Which, of course, in the world's largest
democracy it should be.

my 50-paisa commentary on life in the city ...

Mike || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
???? || ????? || Miqueu || U C > || ?? ?? || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.) ???????? ????????? ????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????) ??????????????? ????(????)????
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 15:31:02 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:31:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.30 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.073102.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Tommie Cronje <tommiecronje at slingshot.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.29 (05) [E]

Hi, I saw that one on the kalahari.net website. I'm not an expert on
Afrikaans, although I am a native speaker (of Afrikaans) and teacher of
English (in New Zealand), so anyone who'd like to ask anything or maybe even
would like to do conversation classes over the telephone or internet ? let
me know. Sorry if offering this is against the rules of this forum (it just
sprang to mind), and if it is, please remove this post. Thanks, T.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks again, Tommie, also for your consideration to the rules.

I admit that the "no commercials" rule is somewhat vague, and there's a fine
line there somewhere. Personally, I feel that members announcing a for-pay
service once in a while should be all right, on the same level as announcing
that a member teaches a course at some school, or announcing the publication
of a member's book, CD or such, which we have been doing for a long time. I
think it's a matter of (low) volume and intensity.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 16:08:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:08:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.080819.0800.>

===========================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Dear Lowlanders,

New Year's Eve is almost upon us and some of you might like to share how
they used to celebrate it in the cultural Lowlands environment of their
youth and how that differs from the way they celebrate it these days, if at
all.

In Low-Saxon-speaking Northern Germany traditions vary from location to
location. The two predominant names for New Year's Eve (aside from German *
Sylvester*) are *Oljahrsavend* (*Oldjaarsavend* "Old Year's Eve") and *
Fastelavend*. The latter of these names seems to point at some confusion
that occurred with the coming of the Reformation and the abandonment of
Carnival (*Fastnacht* "fasting night"). Some of the customs seem to have
been transferred from Carnival to New Year's Eve, probably in conjunction
with pre-Christian Winter Solstice customs. Especially the making of noise
comes to mind, as does going from house to house in disguise and singing for
tokens of appreciation from the inhabitants. This, of course, is also
related to Halloween customs of Britain and its overseas offshoots. We still
followed this custom when I was a child, and even then it was a far cry from
what used to be done in earlier days when the *Rummelpott* (known on the
Netherlands side as *foekepot*, *rommelpot*, *foekerommelpot*) used to be
played (a friction drum known in Dutch as *rommelpot*, in Danish as *
rummelpot*, in Limburgish as *foekepot*, in German as *Brummtopf*, in
Italian as* caccavella*, in Spanish as* zambomba*, in Portuguese as *
sarronca*, in Romanian as *buhai*, in Ukrainian as *?????*), in Hungarian as
*k?cs?gduda*, and in Basque as *eltzagor*, all being associated with
end-of-the-year traditions and/or Martinmas).


Here is a ditty in Low Saxon of Achterhoek on the Netherlands side of the
border:



*Foekepotterij, foekepotterij,*

*geef mien 'n cent, dan gao ik weer veurbij.*

*ik heb geen geld um brood te kopen,*

*deurum mot ik met de foekepotte lopen.*

*Foekepotterij, foekepotterij,*

*geef mien 'n cent, dan gao ik weer veurbij.*


And one from Northern Germany:



*Fruken, maak de D?r op!
De Rummelpott will rin.
Daar k?mmt een Schipp ut Holland,
de hett keen goden Wind.
Schipper, wullt du wieken,
Bootsmann, wullt du strieken.
Sett de Segel op de Topp,
und giff mi wat in?n Rummelpott!*



And for us here at Lowlands-L New Year's Eve comes with a bonus in that it
is the birthday of our own Sandy Fleming (sandy at scotstext.org) and Roger
Thijs (roger.thijs at euro-support.be), each of them "Mr. Resources" in his own
right.

Happy birthday, Sandy and Roger!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 21:22:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:22:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E/LS/S]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.132216.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]

Moi Leeglaanders,

Oldejaorsdag dan begunt 't bij oonz in 't Oogeveine al vrog  't Dreinse
kampioensch?p carbidschieten.

Dat hold in, dat der een vieftiental dielnemers in een rij naost mekaar
staot en op commando probeert umme mit een dartig liters melkbusse

mit brokken carbid van zestig gram en een b?etie water der bij

een voetballe of de orgienele deksel van de melkbusse die stevig in de
opening van de melkbusse past zo wied meugelijk weg te schieten.

Kiek mar ies op dizze link.

http://www.carbidbus.nl/Carbid1/Carbid_films/carbid_films.html

Wieder hebt wij ok nog oonze euliebollen en as traditie de speciale wafels
de aoldejaorsknieperties en neijaorsrollegies

't Bint dez?lfde wafels mar an 't ende van 't olde jaor ?et wij 't
kniepertien de wafel is dan gewoon plat want 't jaor is ontvolden.

En op neijaorsdag 't neiejaorsrollegie de wafels bint dan op-erold want dan
begunt wij weer an een onbekend nei jaor

Van dizze kaante van LL hartelijk fielset?erd Sandy en Roger en veur alle
leeglaanders Gelok in 't neie jaor?..

1.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to mind?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And days o' auld lang syne.
2.
And surely ye'll be your pint-stowp!
And surely I'll be mine!
And we'll tak a cup o' kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.
3.
We twa hae run about the braes
And pu'd the gowans fine;
But we've wander'd mony a weary foot
Sin auld lang syne.
4.
We twa hae paidl'd i' the burn,
Frae mornin' sun till dine;
But seas between us braid hae roar'd
Sin auld lang syne.
5.
And there's a hand, my trusty fiere!
And gie's a hand o' thine!
And we'll tak a right guid willy waught,
For auld lang syne.

Arend Victorie
 ------------------------------

*Van:* Lowlands Languages & Cultures [mailto:
LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] *Namens *Lowlands-L List
*Verzonden:* dinsdag 30 december 2008 17:08
*Aan:* LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
*Onderwerp:* LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Dear Lowlanders,

New Year's Eve is almost upon us and some of you might like to share how
they used to celebrate it in the cultural Lowlands environment of their
youth and how that differs from the way they celebrate it these days, if at
all.

In Low-Saxon-speaking Northern Germany traditions vary from location to
location. The two predominant names for New Year's Eve (aside from German *
Sylvester*) are *Oljahrsavend* (*Oldjaarsavend* "Old Year's Eve") and *
Fastelavend*. The latter of these names seems to point at some confusion
that occurred with the coming of the Reformation and the abandonment of
Carnival (*Fastnacht* "fasting night"). Some of the customs seem to have
been transferred from Carnival to New Year's Eve, probably in conjunction
with pre-Christian Winter Solstice customs. Especially the making of noise
comes to mind, as does going from house to house in disguise and singing for
tokens of appreciation from the inhabitants. This, of course, is also
related to Halloween customs of Britain and its overseas offshoots. We still
followed this custom when I was a child, and even then it was a far cry from
what used to be done in earlier days when the *Rummelpott* (known on the
Netherlands side as *foekepot*, *rommelpot*, *foekerommelpot*) used to be
played (a friction drum known in Dutch as *rommelpot*, in Danish as *
rummelpot*, in Limburgish as *foekepot*, in German as *Brummtopf*, in
Italian as* caccavella*, in Spanish as* zambomba*, in Portuguese as *
sarronca*, in Romanian as *buhai*, in Ukrainian as *?????*), *k?cs?gduda*,
and in Basque as *eltzagor*, all being associated with end-of-the-year
traditions and/or Martinmas).


Here is a ditty in Low Saxon of Achterhoek on the Netherlands side of the
border:

*Foekepotterij, foekepotterij,
geef mien 'n cent, dan gao ik weer veurbij.
ik heb geen geld um brood te kopen,
deurum mot ik met de foekepotte lopen.
Foekepotterij, foekepotterij,
geef mien 'n cent, dan gao ik weer veurbij.*

And one from Northern Germany:

*Fruken, maak de D?r op!
De Rummelpott will rin.
Daar k?mmt een Schipp ut Holland,
de hett keen goden Wind.
Schipper, wullt du wieken,
Bootsmann, wullt du strieken.
Sett de Segel op de Topp,
und giff mi wat in?n Rummelpott!*

And for us here at Lowlands-L New Year's Eve comes with a bonus in that it
is the birthday of our own Sandy Fleming (sandy at scotstext.org) and Roger
Thijs (roger.thijs at euro-support.be), each of them "Mr. Resources" in his own
right.

Happy birthday, Sandy and Roger!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 30 22:15:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:15:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.141540.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Dear Lowlanders,

I just read through our Arend's posting again just now, and his mention of *
euliebollen* (German-type spelling *?liebollen*) his Low Saxon equivalent of
Dutch *oliebollen* ("oil balls"), in Belgium *smoutebollen* ("lard balls").
Essentially, these are deep-fried dough balls, often containing sultanas,
citrus zest or apple pieces, served sprinkled with powdered sugar. These are
popular fare around New Year's and also at fun fairs (carnivals). These are
often referred to as "Dutch doughnuts" (although they have no holes).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliebollen

We seem to be dealing with a cultural continuum here.

In much of Northern Germany the equivalent, eaten on the same occasions, is
the *Berliner*. The difference is that they tend to be fluffier, that they
do not usually contain flavoring other than vanilla, that they tend to be
injected with fruit jelly or applesauce, and that they can be served
sprinkled with powdered sugar or are glazed. In the past they would be
yeast-risen, lately mostly made with baking powder and/or baking soda. Also,
in some traditions they used to be fried in lard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berliner_(pastry)

These are also eaten in Denmark and are called *berliner* there as well.

Oliebollen seem to me like a cross between them and the Louisiana French *
baigner*. Berliners are the closest relatives of the American jelly
doughnut, I believe, are more closely related to the Polish *p?czki* (sg. *
p?czek*), the Russian *pon?iki* (*???????**, sg. pon?ik* *??????*), and *
py?ki* (*?????*, sg. *py?ik* *?????*), the Ukrainian *pampu?ky* (*????????*,
sg. *pampu?yk* *????????*), the Lithuanian *spurgos*, and the Ashkenazi
Jewish Hanukkah treat called *sufganiyot* (????????, sg. *sufganiyah*
????????) in Hebrew, *pontshkes* (????????, sg. *pontshke* ???????) in
Yiddish.

In our North German New Year's Eve tradition, one of the *Berliners* in a
batch might be filled with mustard instead of jelly or applesauce, and
everyone hopes not to be the unlucky one that gets it, for it may be a bad
omen for the coming year.

Traditionally, there are also games that deal with reading fortunes. One of
the favorites is *Bliegeten* (German *Bleigie?en* "pouring of lead") in
which liquid lead is poured from a spoon into cold water. The pourer's
fortune is supposed to be symbolized by the solidified shape. Less dangerous
alternatives are tin pouring and wax pouring.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleigie%C3%9Fen

Happy Holiday!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 01:24:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:24:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.30.DEC.2008.172423.0800.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

The Slovaks with whom I am friendly have similar, about 2" across, covered
in cocnut or vanilla powder. They make them for any special occasion, though
what they are called I dont know...

Nice, but way too sweet...

Tom

Poetry on all topics...
____________________________


Writings in Rhyme
www.writingsinrhyme.com
www.lulu.com/cartyweb


----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:  "In much of Northern Germany the equivalent, eaten on the same
occasions, is the *Berliner*."

I've heard that when JFK said in his speech at the Berlin Wall, "Ich bin ein
Berliner," he had inadvertently call himself a jelly doughnut.  I've also
heard that he should have said, "Ich bin Berliner."  I've seen the video
countless times, but is that story true?

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Ron, you are now on my bad side. You forgot the "Appelflappen" (apple
beignets). These wonders of culinary delight,- cinnamon, calvados and lemon
juice soaked apple slices, which are dipped in a yeasty beer batter and then
deep fried, drained on brown paper shopping bags and then sprinkled with
powder sugar rarely make it to the table. The waiting guest are lining up in
the kitchen and they are eaten as they come out of the pan. I do not think I
could ever get around without making them as long as my children are around.
They beat those dead-weight Oliebollen any time. Even the Berliners are
sinkers as far as I am concerned. But appelflappen make my heart sing.

Happy New Year. Jacqueline BdJ

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

 Jacqueline:



Ron, you are now on my bad side.


Oh, boy! That didn't take much, did it? What can I do to redeem myself?

Are *appelflappen* eaten on New Year's Eve, and are the the same as American
apple fritters?

Mark, I believe the Berliner story is correct, just as you wrote it. In such
constructions the article tends to be omitted. Similarly for instance *Er
ist Amerikaner* 'He is American' versus *Er ist ein Amerikaner* 'He is a
black-and-white cookie'. (The German version isn't necessarily
black-and-white, though:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerikaner_(Geb%C3%A4ck), or *Er ist
Pariser*'He is a Parisian' versus
*Er ist ein Pariser* 'He is a condom'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 15:34:55 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:34:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.12.31 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.073455.0800.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]

Dear Ron



Subject: LL-L Etymology



Van die os op die esel, you refer to the rommelpot in Romanian as
*buhai.*Let me just note that in our family Afrikaans we refer to an
unseemly racket
as a boehhaai. I wish I knew its history: It's not in my dictionaries.



Yrs,

Mark



P.S. Casting no aspersions, there's nothing Roumanian in my bloodline.


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Mark!

Actually, it's *van die esel op die os* ...

Romanian *buhai* also means 'ox'. Perhaps the said instrument is called this
because originally the membrane was made from cow's skin.

I assume that Ukrainian *?????* (*buhaj*) is a Romanian loan.

Wishing all a "good slide" (*guten Rutsch*) into the new year, starting just
about now among our friends in Oceania.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 15:44:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:44:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2008.12.31 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.074423.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (05) [E]

Yes Ron, Appelflappen are eaten on New Years Eve ( We say Oudjaarsavond too)
as are Oliebollen. What they sell here in the stores as applefritters has
nothing to do with apple beignets. Apple fritters are more closely related
to oliebollen. They are made of solid dough rather than from batter. When
you eat appelflappen you eat mostly fruit, covered by a thin layer of
browned batter. To show you that you are forgiven for your "faux pas" I will
add the old family recipe. It is lush. Happy New Year. Jacqueline

*Apple beignets (Appelflappen*)

Ingredients: for 6-8 people. The recipe may be halved for a smaller family.

*Batter:*

2 1/2 cup all purpose flour

1/2 tsp salt

1 cake ( 0.6 oz) compressed yeast

3 tbs concentrated apple juice

1 cup flat  beer

2 tbs vegetable oil

2 egg whites stiffly beaten

 *Apple marinade:*

6 large apples, cored, peeled and sliced horizontally to in 3/8 inch slices

( I prefer Jonathans or Jonagolds, but Granny Smith will also do )

6 tbs sugar

1 1/2 tsp ground cinnamon

1/2 cup lemon juice

1/4 cup concentrated apple juice

1tbs brandy or Calvados

Oil for deep frying

Brown paper for draining the fried beignets
Powdered sugar

1. In a large bowl make a batter of the first 6 ingredients, cover the bowl
with a towel and put away in a warm place for the batter to rise. This will
take about 4 hrs. If the batter is too thick you may thin it with some more
of the beer. Then you add the stiffly beaten egg whites.

2. Marinate the apple slices in a plastic bag in the juices, sugar, cinnamon
and brandy until the batter has risen. Then drain the apples, use the syrup
for another dessert.

3. Heat enough oil to 380? F for frying ( about 2 1/2 inch in a heavy  pot).
Do not let the temperature drop during the frying process.

4. Dip the drained apple slices into the batter and then drop them one or
two at a time  in the hot oil with the help of a long fork or  he handle of
a wooden spoon.  Fry the beignets for 2 min. then turn them over if
necessary and fry till crisp and golden. Drain the beignets in a colander
and then on brown paper. Serve with powdered sugar

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Dear Arend, Ron & Co.



Subject: LL-L Cuisine



Arend, you refer to *euliebollen:*



Ron, to the same ...(German-type spelling *?liebollen*) his Low Saxon
equivalent of Dutch *oliebollen* ("oil balls"), in Belgium
*smoutebollen*("lard balls"). Essentially, these are deep-fried dough
balls, often
containing sultanas, citrus zest or apple pieces, served sprinkled with
powdered sugar. These are popular fare around New Year's and also at fun
fairs (carnivals). These are often referred to as "Dutch doughnuts"
(although they have no holes).



In South Africa we call them vetkoek. It is a handy way to quickly prepare
dough, & therefore has a history in the old Commando. They are treated as
bread more than as cake, & my favourite filling (you slice them & fill thim
at table) is with savoury mince or bobotie. I love them, but people of more
delicate constitution claim to find them indigestible, & vid? Skikkerling
(Commando Courageous) they have also been known as 'maagbomme' &
'stormjaers' (stomach-bombs & assault troops).



Yrs,

Mark

----------

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Beste ?n olle Laiglanders,

In verband met de Berliners.

Wij gebruiken de Franse termen:

oliebollen met vanillepudding: boule de l' Yser.

oliebollen met confituur (jam): boule de Berlin.



Boule de l' Yser verwijst naar de oorlog: de vele kanonballen verschoten bij
het slagveld van het Ijzerfront in 1014-1918. L' Yser is inderdaad het Frans
voor de rivier die door Frans-Vlaanderen en West-Vlaanderen stroomt: de
Ijzer die bij Nieuwpoort in de Noordzee loopt!



Toetnoasteki ?n de b?ste w?nsjhn voe 't niewejoar ?n vele "wrede" (pardon
"vrede") in de w?reld!

Beste w?nsjhn voer OLLE m?nsjhn ?n gluk ?n zeegn up oal junder weegn!

Roland Desnerck

Oostende, Stad aan Zee.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 15:49:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:49:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.31 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.074924.0800.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (04) [E]

Ron/ Reinhard wrote

Traditionally, there are also games that deal with reading fortunes. One of
the favorites is *Bliegeten* (German *Bleigie?en* "pouring of lead") in
which liquid lead is poured from a spoon into cold water. The pourer's
fortune is supposed to be symbolized by the solidified shape. Less dangerous
alternatives are tin pouring and wax pouring.

This is also a well known custom here - but if I'm not mistaken , at
hallowe'en rather than New Year. Walter Scott refers to this custom in his
story of Aunt Margaret's Mirror (is that the right name?) where another
tradition is mentioned, that of looking into a mirror at midnight to see
your true love's reflection behind you.

Easier by far is to peel an apple keeping the peel unbroken for as long as
possible, prefereably the whole apple! and then tossing it over your
shoulder. The  letter formed by the peel on the ground gives you the initial
of the name of your true love.

(Sounds to me like a clever wheeze to get apples peeled by your family !)

Happy New Year to All

from a freezing but dry Worcestershire

Heather

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.12.30 (03) [E]

In England, and I believe Scotland, New Year was traditionally the 25th of
March; we in fact still preserve this in our tax year, which starts on April
11.  That's because, when England switched to the Gregorian callendar, we
lost 17 callendar days.  People refused to cough up on New Year's Day, so
payment was deferred for the 17 days.



The 25th March date is incidentally the answer to a historical conundrum:
how, on 20th March 1485, could a man describe the outcome of the Battle of
Bosworth (22nd August 1485), without recourse to supernatural powers etc?



Scotland had already changed callendars before Union, as Scotland was
Catholic at the time; Protestant England refused as it was thought to be a
Papist AntiChrist plot to make people celebrate Easter on the wrong day,
thus damning their souls.

Much earlier, in late Anglo-Saxon times, New Year and Christmas were
officially the same day.  Tradition has it that William of Normandy moved it
so that when he had himself crowned as King of England on 25th December
1066, the celebrations wouldn't clash!



Paul
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 31 15:51:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:51:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2008.12.31 (04) [A]
Message-ID: <WED.31.DEC.2008.075112.0800.>

=======================================================================

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2008.12.28 (01) [E]

Beste Roger:



Onderwerp: LL-L Travels



Folteraar! Wat besiel jou om so lekker oor ons inheemse kossies kletter? Ek
kry sommer lus ek skiet Kaapland toe en nooi my uit op jou!



So terloops, kom jy Pretoria toe?



Die Uwe,

Matk

?

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