LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.01.08 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 January 2008 - Volume 06
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.01.07 (07) [E]

Hi all,

No, John Howland, this was not my line!

Regards,

Gespierde Elsie Zinsser

From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.07 (05) [E]

Hello, all (I can never bring myself to say you guys--sounds vulgar to me).

                     Elsie wrote:

(Quote)  And I just noticed that apparently Dutch is the only
Germanic/W.European language that does not use the latin word "muscle" but
"spier". Anyone knows other Germanic languages that use a more "original"
word? (end quote)

English retains the word "brawn," of germanic origin, I think. It seems to
me that brawn is less used in American English than when I was a child.

John Howland

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From: foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.01.07 (07) [E]

Thanks Ron,

   For your encouragement. I'll have more time for conformity issues next
week after my exam.  But today, it seems you're probing for a bit more  '*
high-plains*' history [the highlands here are dry—it's the lowlanders who
hold power here].

*Reinhard wrote*:

…those [low saxon speakers] that left for the "New" World did have a choice
(and I wonder if some of them emigrated for this reason). I am told that
especially many of those that emigrated with other Low Saxon speakers or
congregated with them overseas tended to end up with Low Saxon alongside
English, often without German playing any role.

Yes'r, my great-great-grandfather came over with all four of his boys in the
1880's and ended up in South Texas (with only one dollar left)—one son found
work in a German bakery the next day. Not liking the farmland there, two
boys hired on as cowboys on a cattle drive to take cows up north to Nebraska
for railroad shipping and slaughter.  They're minor characters in James
Michener's novel too [Gompert]. My grandfather was born in a cave because
there wasn't enough sod to build a pukka "grassroots" house. Note that the
hoch deutschers controlled the best land for a 1000 + miles to the east.
 His name comes up at the end of a long letter listing the number of horses,
cows and sheep they had at the time. The message was that surviving in the
drylands seemed to be possible. The others followed…[breathe here]

Yes, there was a lot of plattdeutsch spoken at the crossroads in those
days.  My grandfather could still write it and read letters from the old
country even in the 1970's.  One of our German cousins showed up at his
funeral.  It was the largest funeral the valley ever had. He taught me how
to ride wild horses, but not how to speak plattdeutsch. I have a feeling for
my heritage in two ways: one comes from the silences between words and the
other from the light-hearted jokes.  Everything is survivable, but the
stories tend to be fresh new ones.

And you're right, I have had to live next to actual hochsters only in the
last 7 years after migrating to Minnesota [the lowlands] for work. And
again, you're right, there is little or no mention of low German here.  I
struggle with the authoritarian flavor of this place. Not sure if it is my
Spanish-friendly [Pakistani-nurtured] mode of talking or my family's
long-abandoned Euro-tensions, but I'm constantly getting in social trouble
here for speaking my mind.  The fascinating thing is how I learned to use a
thick peasant-Norwegian accent to express my anger.  I think that's common
here—and most commonly ineffective.  From what you say, it might be that
this borrowing is due to the locals having lost their memory bank of
plattdeutsch swear words. I learned some of those high-energy words in
Nebraska as a child, but don't hear them here. German itself was banned here
when the WWars broke out. Everyone got lower grades in school after than
point, I'm told—no more bilingual classrooms. There are a lot of silences
here still. Very little room for plattdeutsch [rabbits or wrens] here… or
for Ojibwa, or… Sioux or Somali.   Colonialism continues in an English Only
key.

I have some reflections on the ancient "pagan" history of the lowlands too
(and the imposition of Christianity from the German highlands), but that
shifts the subject back too far… Same tensions, different day, perhaps…I'll
save it.

Gael
 ----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Again thanks a lot, Gael. This is fascinating.

And now that you are aware of certain sentiments ... well ... you might like
to consider not referring to the language by its *German *name, unless you
speak or write German. (Why in German?! To emphasize who's the boss? Insult
to injury?)

The traditional English name is "Low German," which is, however, imprecise
in that it can serve as a group name for Low Saxon and Low Franconian
(Dutch, Afrikaans ...), and also in that in German Low Franconian (*
Niederfränkisch*) dialects that happen to be spoken on German soil are
lumped into this together with Low Saxon.

We have one group with two subgroups here:

   - *Low German*
      - *Low Franconian* (< Old Low Franconian)*
      *
         - Dutch (*Nederlands*)
         - Hollandish
            - Brabantish
            - Flemish-Zeelandic
            - Cleves Low Franconian (also in Germany)
         - Afrikaans
      - *Low Saxon* ("Low German") (< Old Saxon)
      - Northwestern
         - Northeastern
            - Mecklenburgish
            - Pomeranian
               - Mennonite (*Plautdietsch*)
               - Southeastern
         - Southwestern
            - Westphalian
            - Eastphalian

On the German side, the own name is *Plattdüütsch* or *Nedderdüütsch*, or
just *Platt*. For the sake of more accurate classification many of us say
"Low Saxon" in reference to the Saxon-derived varieties, and this is
consistent with usage in the Netherlands where this language is used also.
Naturally, this "Low Saxon" excludes the Cleves Low Franconian (or
"Bergish") varieties.

(Old Saxon is also one of the ancestors of Old English.)

(And "Saxon" has nothing to do with today's German state of Saxony. It stole
our name!)

*Platt* is confusing too, because many other language varieties are referred
to as such as well, not only in the Low German group.

Is this confusing enough for you?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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