From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 00:06:04 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:06:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.05.31 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.31.MAY.2008.170604.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 31 May 2008 - Volume 05
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.05.31 (01) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, the Basters speak Gariep (or Orange-River) Afrikaans to which
Namakwaland-,
Boesmanland-, Richtersveld-, Griekwa- and the coastal Veldrif Afrikaans
belong.

An example (from: Inleiding tot die Afrikaanse Taalkunde, TJR Botha Ed.):

=======

"Ek en Boesak en Tannetjie en Grietgoed-hulle het gelê ry staan kom van
Heen-En-Weerskop na Sannaspoort met mening sam om te lê stan bottel
koop, want ons was dôrs.

Ons had daar vier ou wilde brunes in gehad. Aljimmers dan lê stan gee
Boesakgoed vir Tannetjiesgoed die rieme.

Ek het vir Boesakgoed gesê: "Jy moenie so maak nie".
Mit dat hy weer vir Tannetjiesgoed die rieme stan gee, beuk die ou hotagter
perd weg en die het gehool met die kar dat ons hom vandag toe nie in die
wilstand kan kry nie.

Dit was nie 'n wat vir 'n kar nie, maar 'n teleurstelling wegens die bottel,
want
ons moes toe lê troei hoeistoe."

===============

The predominant carriers of this dialectical form were the Khoi and
Trekboere (some of mixed race)
who left the southern Cape after two small-pox epidemics in the 1800s and
settled in the North-Western
Cape, Namibia and Angola by the 1850s.

My father hails from the Boesmanland and still uses the form 'wat vir 'n..."
for anything ranging from a gadget
to a new marinade.

The –goed addition is also very typical, as is the weird phonological
rounded and unrounded forms:

terug > troei
hoeistoe > huistoe
beuk > buk/buig

"Mit" instead of "met" is a typical Oos-Kaap Afrikaans form.

Beware, Griekwas and Rehoboth Basters do not consider themselves Bruinmense
or Coloureds despite the attempts
by pre- and post-colonial governments to coalesce and label race and
language groups for political reasons!

You might want to Google the following: Genadendal; Adam Kok; Griekwas;
Griekwastad; Griekwaland Wes, Griekwaland
Oos , Bartlett's church, Monrovian Missions,
http://www.bdb.co.za/kimberley/places.htm; and www.rehobothbasters.org.

The Basters speak Afrikaans as mother tongue.

Elsie

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
My question:

Exactly what sort of Afrikaans is it that the Basters speak natively (and I
assume they speak Standard Afrikaans as well)? Is it a form of or linked
with Griqua Afrikaans (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/griekwa-info.php)?

My suggestion:

I suggest we occasionally discuss Baster history and culture as well. These
seem very interesting to me, especially the aspect of "conservatism" that
some people describe as "more Dutch than the Dutch."
 Thanks in advance!

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 00:15:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:15:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.05.31 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.31.MAY.2008.171524.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.05.31 (02) [E]

n message <57c981290805310938m53b9dc70i7dfefa2359ca78ed at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>i.e. Roger writes

> Whike cleaning up my library I found a little book about Flemish
> pilgrimages
>

Fascinating stuff!

Thanks for posting it,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 00:27:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:27:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.05.31 (07) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.31.MAY.2008.172712.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.05.31 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Technica
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I need some technical help.
>
> I use FileZilla to FTP files to and from our Web account. It works fine on
> the whole, and the price is right (free).
>
> However, one thing is driving me insane about it. After a very short time I
> get automatically logged off each FTP session and have to logged on again. I
> have tried to set the session length to indefinite or at least longer, to no
> avail. I have contacted the discussion group and all I got was "Send a
> command to FileZilla Server," and my question "How?" remains unanswered.
> Yes, I do have the Server program but still can't figure out what I need to
> do, because there is no help.
>
> Can any of you explain what to do?
>
> Alternatively, does any of you know of a secure FTP program (preferably
> freeware) that does not leave me hanging with this problem?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Ausnahmsweise mal Deutsch, da mein Filezilla auch auf deutsch läuft. Unter
"Bearbeiten -> Einstellungen -> Verbindung (Liste auf linker Seite) ->
Unterabschnitt FTP" erscheint dann rechts im Fenster unter
"FTP-Verbindungserhaltung" ein Kästchen ""FTP-Verbindungserhaltungs-Befehle
senden". Das ankreuzen. Damit müsste es eigentlich gehen.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Thanks, Marcus.

So far no luck. Sorry if I seem/am too dumb, but when people try to explain
it I keep feeling that there's something being assumed.

First of all, are you talking about FileZilla or FileZilla Server?

In FileZilla I tried to follow what you wrote in German and did ...

Edit > Settings > FTP > FTP Keep-alive = clicked box labeled "Send FTP
keep-alive commands" and OKed

But the problem remained.

Underneath it says "A proper server does not require this. Contact the
server administrator if you need this."

What shall I do?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 16:58:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:58:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2008.05.31 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.095859.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to June 2008 at Lowlands-L! June already?! Can you believe it?

And welcome to you who joined us since the beginning of May! There is only
one of you. *Ahoj a vitajte!*

*Slovakia* (*Slovensko*):
     Bratislava [1]

It is normal for the number of new subscriptions to go down during the
Northern Hemisphere warm season, usually starting to pick up again in
September or October. Also, some longer-standing members resign and later
rejoin, apparently because they still have not understood that that all they
need to do is ask me to put their subscriptions on vacation mode, simply
give me the dates of the beginning and end of the period and then not worry
about it anymore. (Please see below.)


A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:

   -

   Do not mix topics.
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   Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond.
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Please consult the rules and guidelines:  lowlands-l.net/rules.php

Another request:
Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
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annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.

*Membership:*

As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
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Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
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*Address Changes: *
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
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*Temporary Absence*
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
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this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
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sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
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is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Please don't forget about our activities:

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
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(lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )



Please ask if you need to know what you can do and how to do it. Please also
remember that help is available.
Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

And remember:
No matter where you are (from), here you are considered Lowlanders until
proved innocent!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
sassisch at yahoo.com
Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 17:12:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:12:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.101248.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.05.31 (01) [E]

 Dear Ron

Subject: LL-L: Etymology

You said
*(I still have a hard time "saying" this name, considering that it is
derived from pejorative "bastard." However, I am not putting it in quotation
marks because the people themselves have decided to own this name, and
apparently proudly so. Something similar happened in the case of Canada's
Métis.)

I supposed that it was in English that the word was pejorative,
understandably, if it specified one who was born out of wedlock, & in times
past for that reason beyond the social pale. However, in Afrikaans we use
that term for 'hybrid'. Hybridisation is 'uitbastering' & 'hybrid vogour' is
'basterkrag'. There is quite another word referring to racial mixing out of
that community & among their white neighbours. One seldom hears it, for good
reason. It retains the power to shock & has often even into present times
led the effusion of blood. Dare I even write it...? 'Halfnaaitjie': Please
do not use it.

Your question:

Exactly what sort of Afrikaans is it that the Basters speak natively?

I feel I aught to apologise in advance to Elsie, who has a philological ear
nearer to the ground in their part of the World, for pre-empting her.
However, I have had a bit of contact with them in times past, & it seemed to
me they spoke a fairly academic Kaaps Afrikaans between themselves. For
example, there was no 'klankbreek', diphthongisation, to the long vowels
that we tend to hear in the Transvaal, & their language is replete with
terminology that didn't make it to my neck of the woods. For example, they
refer to black men & women as 'outa' & 'ayah', that came from terms of
address to Cape Malays. Is this how she sounded?

Your suggestion:

I suggest we occasionally discuss Baster history and culture as well. These
seem very interesting to me, especially the aspect of "conservatism" that
some people describe as "more Dutch than the Dutch."

I like the idea. Only let me wait until another bloke puts his foot in it as
well. I agree about their conservatism though, & they are indeed,
quintessentially, more Afrikaans than the Afrikaners.

Yrs in anticipation,
Mark
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 17:22:06 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:22:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.06.01 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.102206.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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 ========================================================================
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.05.31 (07) [E/German]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

>
> First of all, are you talking about FileZilla or FileZilla Server?
>
FileZilla

> In FileZilla I tried to follow what you wrote in German and did ...
>
> Edit > Settings > FTP > FTP Keep-alive = clicked box labeled "Send FTP
> keep-alive commands" and OKed
>
> But the problem remained.
>
> Underneath it says "A proper server does not require this. Contact the
> server administrator if you need this."
>
> What shall I do?
>
There's a sub-window in FileZilla  (by default at the upper end) where
status messages, commands and responses are logged. Are there status
messages appearing in that line (about every 30 seconds or so), something
like "sending FTP keep-alive command"?
The time-outs are thrown by your server, if you are inactive for some time
(300 seconds is a typical time for a time-out). The FTP client has to make
sure, that the connection keeps alive by sending commands with no effect,
setting the time-out counter to zero again. If there are "sending FTP
keep-alive command" messages in that log, what kind of command follows? A
typical keep-alive command is "NOOP" (no operation, telling the server: "I
have no commands for you, but I am still there. Keep up the connection").
Some servers ignore the "NOOP" command.
Using another client _can_ help, but the basic problem lies with the server.
So asking the server administrator might help.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.05.31 (04) [E]

In message <57c981290805311313x40204fd5q659390518802d920 at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> i.e. Reinhard/Ron writes

> Alternatively, does any of you know of a secure FTP program (preferably
> freeware) that does not leave me hanging with this problem
>

I am not sure about its security, but I use FireFTP, a FireFox extension -
http://fireftp.mozdev.org/help.html

Best wishes,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Thank you very much, Marcus and Pat! This is very helpful.

I'll pursue your tips and will see which is the best solution.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I'm off to help put to a rest the body of a friend young enough to be
my son ... So, sorry if I seem a bit distracted.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 19:13:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:13:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.01 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.121335.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.01 (01) [E]

Haai all,

Nee watwou, oompie Mark, jy vang die ding daar goed vas!

In the 60s, the Rehoboth Basters were probably as conservative as the
Afrikaners were then,
but I don't think that is valid anymore. I think it is a tad silly to assume
they, like the Afrikaners,
are a homogenous little group untouched by education, world views and
international exposure.

Groetnis,

Elsie

I feel I aught to apologise in advance to Elsie, who has a philological ear
nearer to the ground in their part of the World, for pre-empting her.
However, I have had a bit of contact with them in times past, & it seemed to
me they spoke a fairly academic Kaaps Afrikaans between themselves. For
example, there was no 'klankbreek', diphthongisation, to the long vowels
that we tend to hear in the Transvaal, & their language is replete with
terminology that didn't make it to my neck of the woods. For example, they
refer to black men & women as 'outa' & 'ayah', that came from terms of
address to Cape Malays. Is this how she sounded?

>>I agree about their conservatism though, & they are indeed,
quintessentially, more Afrikaans than the Afrikaners.

Yrs in anticipation,

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Elsie and Mark.

Mark, you asked:

Is this how she sounded?

That's difficult to say, because she only said a few sentences. I could tell
it was Afrikaans but phonologically it didn't seem like Standard Afrikaans.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 22:49:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:49:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.06.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.154954.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Pat wrote:

I am not sure about its security, but I use FireFTP, a FireFox extension -
http://fireftp.mozdev.org/help.html

So far there have been no such problems in FireFTP. It seems to be working
just fine. Interesting, isn't it? I hope I won't have to eat crow.

My hosting service comes with an FTP program, but it's not very convenient
and fast to use. Since I upload so much, I prefer the select-and-drag method
or anything close to it.

At least in my case there was another problem with FileZilla. Whenever I
downloaded groups of documents or entire directories, once in a while a
document or two ended up empty, even when there was no error message. So it
looks as though there are still some kinks in the program, which may be the
reason why there are so many updates. I am just mentioning this as a matter
of caution to all of you.

Thanks again, Pat and Marcus! I'm glad I asked.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 23:43:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:43:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.01 (05) [E]
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From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: Definite articles

Hi, you all,

  What's the origin of the Jutlandish definite article Æ æ ?

  Thank you.

    Have a nice week.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi, Ívison!

After you posted the same question the other day (under "Morphology" -- and
I do change subject lines), I thought I had responded to it. But I can't
find my response in the archive, so I guess I only *intended *to answer your
questions (which happens when you get old and feeble).

To make it (relatively) brief, please take a look at my introduction to
Jutish as a part of our Anniversary presentation:

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/jysk-info.php

Uniform *æ* is specific to Southern Jutish. Western Jutish has *æ* where
Standard Danish has *-en* (*fælleskøn*), and it has *å* where Standard
Danish has *-et* (*intetkøn*).

Yes, and unlike other Scandinavian (North Germanic) varieties, the Jutish
definite article *precedes* the noun, most probably due to long-standing
overlap with (and bilingualism involving) Low Saxon which resulted in West
Germanic features in Jutish and in North Germanic features in the
northernmost Low Saxon varieties.

English: *the* father | *the* house
Low Saxon: *de vadder* | *dat huus*
South Jutish: *æ far* | *æ** hus*
West Jutish: *æ fær* | *å hus*
Danish: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Norwegian: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Swedish: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Faroese: *faðirin* | *húsið*
Icelandic: *faðirinn* | *húsið*
Old Norse: *faðirinn* | *húsit

*
I believe it's uniformly *æ* for plural 'the'.

The indefinite article, however, is similar in Jutish and the rest of
Scandinavian:

English: *a* father | *a* house
Low Saxon: *een (~ 'n) vadder* | *een (~ 'n) **huus*
South Jutish: *en (~ 'n)** far* | *et (~ 't)** hus*
West Jutish: *én (~ 'n)** fær* | *ét (~ 't)** hus*
Danish: *en fa(de)r* | *et hus
*etc.

To make things a bit more complex, the Jutish definite article *æ** *tends
to be homophonous with *æ *'is', 'am', 'are' (Standard Danish *er*); e.g.
West Jutish *æ** gærdesmutte **æ æ f**ær* 'the wren is the father'.

To get to your actual question, I am pretty convinced that the Jutish
definite articles are derived from the Scandinavian articles (*-en > **æ*, *
-et* > *æ* ~ *å*) but have come to precede the noun under Saxon influence.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
*
*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 04:15:29 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:15:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does ot mean?" 2008.06.01 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.211529.0700.>

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From: "ds" <dstokely at infionline.net>
Subject: idioms

Dear Ron -

I hope it doesn't sound too scatological, but with this below my mind saw a
reference to breaking wind.  Could that be what the idiom refers to? A
little humor, perhaps?

David Stokely

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idioms"

these days I found an interesting idiom I don't understand though I mean to
understand each single word. It is handed down from the Hanseatic merchants
of the 14th/15th century and written in Middle Low Saxon:

*"vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"*
*vynde:*   *1. winds*
*         2. enemies*
**
*boddeme:* *1. the bottom(s) of a of ship*
                       *2.    (a) special type of ship(s)*
*                      3. (a) shallow part(s) of the sea, near the coast, in
special used in the Baltic Sea*
**
*maket:**   make (3rd pers. sing/pl)*
**
*gut:**     good*
**
*unde:*    *and*

Who is able to solve this conundrum?

-------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Oh, David, dear David,

Who can blame you with temptation so great?

And indeed, for all we know it is a clever Hanseatic word-play aphorism
about stooping to the very bottom (*boddem*) by taking advantage of the
winds (*vynde*) at one's disposal and thus blow one's enemies (*vynde*) out
of the game, even if only by stunning and confusing them for a few seconds.

It was wonderful to hear from you anyway.

The Kahuna has cracked a smile.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 13:56:46 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:56:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.02 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.065646.0700.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Not sure if this's been posted yet
http://www.eurolang.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3058&Itemid=1&lang=nl

Diederik

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 17:35:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:35:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.103553.0700.>

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From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "What does ot mean?" 2008.06.01 (06) [E]

*"vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"*
*vynde:*   *1. winds*
*         2. enemies*
**
*boddeme:* *1. the bottom(s) of a of ship*
                      *2.    (a) special type of ship(s)*
*                      3. (a) shallow part(s) of the sea, near the coast, in
special used in the Baltic Sea*
**
*maket:**   make (3rd pers. sing/pl)*
**
*gut:**     good*
**
*unde:*    *and*

Who is able to solve this conundrum?
 Probably not I, since I am ignorant of Low Saxon.

Here is the aphorism with some context which is not fully legible to me.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lPsDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22vynde+boddeme%22&lr=&as_brr=0

I would guess:

"vynde" = "enemy" (or "devil") (cf. German "Feind")

"boddeme" = "[cargo] ship" (cf. English "bottom" = "[cargo] ship")

"gut" = "cargo" (cf. English "goods", German "Gueter")

Then the aphorism might mean something like "Bad ship, bad cargo; bad cargo,
bad ship" or so, where "bad" could be either "evil" or "enemy". Exact
application not obvious to me.

Just a guess.

-- Doug Wilson

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 18:28:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:28:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.112844.0700.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.06.01 (04) [E]

From Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron wrote: I hope I won't have to eat crow.

????

Is this some ancient germanic expression? Or some new americanism?

Or a 'Ronism'?

I have never heard this before. Does it equate to 'eating humble pie'?

What is / was the 'crow'?

bewildered

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Heather!

No Ronism this time.

"To eat crow" is another, legitimate way of saying "to eat humble pie."

For those among us that are not familiar with either of these, they mean
something like "to be humiliated by having to admit that one's strong
opinion or position turns out to be wrong."

Interestingly, according to various sources, neither "humble" now "crow" in
this context originally meant what they seem to mean now.

"Humble" comes from "umble" (Middle English usually plural *vmblis*, *omblys
*, *omylys*) 'innards of an animal (usually deer)'. I believe it is derived
from Middle French *nombles* denoting various cuts of meat. Indeed, "numble
pie" is a variant of "humble pie."

"Crow" is related to Middle German *kros* or *krös* (Modern German *Gekröse*)
and to Dutch *kroos(t)*, both 'mesentary', as well as Dutch
*kroos*'giblets', related also to Low Saxon
*Krage* 'mesentary'. I am fairly confident that it is related to English *
craw* (< Old English *craƽa*) 'crop (of a bird)', related to Middle Saxon *
krage*, Old German *chrago*, Danish *krave*, Old Norse *krage*, all 'throat'
or 'neck'. Furthermore, I believe that this is related to Low Saxon and
German *Kragen* 'collar'. In cooking, "crow" came to stand for "minor, cheap
cuts," mostly innards.

So while it seems to be true that "to eat crow" is mostly or only used in
North American English it may well have come from Britain. But then again,
it seems possible that "crow" in the said sense was still in use in early
colonial North America.

I used to use the phrase "to eat humble pie" before I settled in in the US.
But being a bit of a linguistic chameleon and also tired of getting weird
looks when I say "quaint alienisms" (though these can have sex appeal in
Europhile and Australophile US circles) I have switched to the "crow"
variant.

So there you are, dear Heather.

Umbly yours,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 17:03:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:03:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.06.02 (02) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2008.05.31 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:  We at Lowlands-L celebrate and support linguistic diversity
worldwide.

Certainly true!  An interesting and humorous anecdote (not funny at the
time).  On my computer at home I have the Firefox browser that I downloaded
in Spanish.  Never hurts to keep in practice with another language, right?
Well, the version of Internet Explorer that my wife used doesn't work with
all of the websites now.  Usually, I'm around to help her navigate my
Firefox browser, but not yesterday.  She got so mad trying to pay some bills
that she threatened me with buying her own laptop!  Well, the threat of
spending a bunch of money got me, so I finally downloaded an English version
of Firefox ;-).  But, I kept my Spanish version too.  Anyway, I don't think
my normally lovely spouse has the same appreciation for "linguistic
diversity" that I do (said tongue in cheek).

Mark Brooks

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 02:57:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:57:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.02 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.195723.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi again, Ívison *et al.*!

I've come to demonstrate the eating of both crows and humble pies.

A very kind and discrete private message of one of my favorite Danish
Lowlanders (*og tak ska' Du ha'*) pointed out that my information about the
definite article in Western Jutish was incorrect. My (h)umble apologies! I
went back to my notes, but they are old and I don't remember what I based
them on (if on anything other than occasional fancy flights of my enfeebled
mind). Then I checked other sources and found that what I wrote was indeed
wrong. I hope I got it right now.

Real Western Jutish does not distinguish genders and uses only what in other
varieties is the common gender (*fælleskøn*). So here is a revision:

Definite:

English: *the* father | *the* house
Low Saxon: *de vadder* | *dat huus*
South Jutish: *æ far* | *æ** hus*
West Jutish: *æ fær* | *æ** hus*
Danish: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Norwegian: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Swedish: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Faroese: *faðirin* | *húsið*
Icelandic: *faðirinn* | *húsið*
Old Norse: *faðirinn* | *húsit

*
Indefinite:

English: *a* father | *a* house
Low Saxon: *een (~ 'n) vadder* | *een (~ 'n) **huus*
South Jutish: *en (~ 'n)** far* | *et (~ 't)** hus*
West Jutish: *én (~ 'n)** fær* | *én (~ 'n)** hus*
Danish: *en fa(de)r* | *et hus
*etc.

Good thing I find umble and crow edible, if not delicious.

In Danish, older Scandinavian masculine and feminine have coincided:

Icelandic:
masculine: *
**faðir* 'a father'* - faðir**inn* 'the father'
feminine: *
**klukka* 'a clock'* - klukka**n* 'the clock'
neuter:
*hús* 'a house'* - hús**ið* 'the house'

Danish:
common: *
**en fa(de)r* 'a father'* - **fa(de)r****en* 'the father'
*en **klokke* 'a clock'* - klokke**n* 'the clock'
neuter:
*et hus* 'a house'* - huset*** 'the house'

Southern Jutish:
 common: *
* *en** far* 'a father'* - **æ** far* 'the father'
 *en **klokk'* 'a clock'* - **æ** klokk'* 'the clock'
 neuter:
 *et hus* 'a house'* - **æ** hus* 'the house'

Western Jutish:
 common: *
* *en** f**æ**r* 'a father'* - **æ** f**æ**r* 'the father'
 *en **klokke* 'a clock'* - **æ** klokke* 'the clock'
*en hus* 'a house'* - **æ** hus* 'the house'

Furthermore, as in other Scandinavian varieties (but unlike Old Norse and
conservative Icelandic and Faroese), the indefinite article might be
regarded as having come to occupy the position of a numeral, adjectives,
etc., as in Western Germanic. They seem to be related to the enclitic
definite articles as well as with words for "one," the latter as in Western
Germanic. (Danish for "one" is *en* or *et* according to gender.) I suspect
that these changes occurred under Middle Saxon influence. In Jutish, more
intensive Saxon influences seem to have led to the abandonment of the old
enclitic definite article in favor of *æ* (etc.) preceding a noun the way
Saxon masculine and feminine *de* and neuter *it* ~ *et* ~ *dat* do,
corresponding to English "the".

You might go as far as saying that Jutish and the northernmost Low Saxon
varieties represent a bridge between Northern and Western Germanic, although
the former is clearly still North Germanic and the latter are clearly West
Germanic.

How many crows do I have to eat now?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 02:59:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:59:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.02 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.195908.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Beste Ron,

tonight I learned another new LS-word (from Hamburg, your home region):

"_buttsche-boben-opp_", written differently '_buttje-baven-upp_'.

Isn't it nice? I'm sure that you're familiar with it, because its Standard
German meaning is obvious: 'kleiner Mann- ganz groß'.
It is used to describe the condition or mood of a person of 'minor
possibilities' when he/she is a little drunk.

Again it shows- a _but(t)je_' is not necessary young or a boy, it describes
someone who (male/female) is "strolling", living outside of a community.

Have a nice day!

Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 03:01:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:01:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.200148.0700.>

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From: Hugo Zweep <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (04) [E]

Reminds me of several Australianisms probably starting with the description
of South Australians as being crow eaters. Oxford's Australian National
Dictionary has the earliest reference to this in 1881 "because it was
asserted that the early settlers ..., when short of mutton, made a meal of
the unwary crow".

The there is the archaic Australian slang phrase "stone (starve) the crows"
as an expression of surprise. To "eat crow" is described in the, Australian,
Macquarie Dictionary as a, presumably, colloqualism to mean to be forced to
do or say something very unpleasant or humiliating.

Hugo Zweep

----------

From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (04) [E]

From: Andrys Onsman

Hey Ron

So THAT is why South Australians are called Croweaters. Mind you, one of
their football teams, the Adelaide Crows (!), have been making other teams
eat plenty of crow/humble pie over the last few seasons.

Break my sorrow,
Andrys

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 03:13:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:13:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.201358.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (03) [E]

 Beste Doug, dear Lowlanners,

Doug schreyv, answering to

*"vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"*

the aphorism might mean something like "Bad ship, bad cargo; bad cargo, bad
ship" or so, where "bad" could be either "evil" or "enemy". Exact
application not obvious to me.
This is, for my guess, one very interesting interpretation of the
conundrum!!! (Sorry- trying to open your link I just found a lot of
possibilities to get furtheron...)

Thanks, nevertheless, to all the other guesses, dear people!

Hope we're going on.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (03) [E]

*"vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"*
*vynde:*   *1. winds*
*         2. enemies*
**
*boddeme:* *1. the bottom(s) of a of ship*
                     *2.    (a) special type of ship(s)*
*                      3. (a) shallow part(s) of the sea, near the coast, in
special used in the Baltic Sea*
**
*maket:**   make (3rd pers. sing/pl)*
**
*gut:**     good*
**
*unde:*    *and*

Who is able to solve this conundrum?

 Probably not I, since I am ignorant of Low Saxon.
>
> Here is the aphorism with some context which is not fully legible to me.
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=lPsDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22vynde+boddeme%22&lr=&as_brr=0<
> http://books.google.com/books?id=lPsDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22vynde+boddeme%22&lr=&as_brr=0
> >
>
> I would guess:
>
> "vynde" = "enemy" (or "devil") (cf. German "Feind")
>
> "boddeme" = "[cargo] ship" (cf. English "bottom" = "[cargo] ship")
>
> "gut" = "cargo" (cf. English "goods", German "Gueter")
>
> Then the aphorism might mean something like "Bad ship, bad cargo; bad
> cargo, bad ship" or so, where "bad" could be either "evil" or "enemy". Exact
> application not obvious to me.
>
> Just a guess.
>

But it's looking like a good guess after all. Compare this, from Thomas
Jefferson (1793):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q7yp1S0B9lgC&pg=PA282&dq=%22enemy+bottoms%22&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0

<<On the contrary, we suppose it to have been long an established principle
of the law of nations, that the goods of a friend are free in an enemy's
vessel, and an enemy's goods lawful prize in the vessel of a friend. The
inconvenience of this principle, which subjects merchant vessels to be
stopped at sea, searched, ransacked, led out of their course, has induced
several nations latterly to stipulate against - it by treaty, and to
substitute another in its stead, that _free bottoms shall make free goods,
and enemy bottoms enemy goods,_ a rule equal to the other in point of loss
and gain, but less oppressive to commerce.>>

There are numerous parallel examples (Google "enemy bottoms" for example), I
guess mostly in the literature of international/maritime law.

-- Doug Wilson

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 03:15:04 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:15:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.02 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.201504.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Beste Ron,

tonight I learned another new LS-word (from Hamburg, your home region):

"_buttsche-boben-opp_", written differently '_buttje-baven-upp_'.

Isn't it nice? I'm sure that you're familiar with it, because its Standard
German meaning is obvious: 'kleiner Mann- ganz groß'.
It is used to describe the condition or mood of a person of 'minor
possibilities' when he/she is a little drunk.

Again it shows- a _but(t)je_' is not necessary young or a boy, it describes
someone who (male/female) is "strolling", living outside of a community.

Have a nice day!

Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 15:15:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:15:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.03 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.3.JUN.2008.081511.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.02 (05) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Morphology
>
> Hi again, Ívison /et al./!
>
> I've come to demonstrate the eating of both crows and humble pies.
>
> A very kind and discrete private message of one of my favorite Danish
> Lowlanders (/og tak ska' Du ha'/) pointed out that my information about the
> definite article in Western Jutish was incorrect. My (h)umble apologies! I
> went back to my notes, but they are old and I don't remember what I based
> them on (if on anything other than occasional fancy flights of my enfeebled
> mind). Then I checked other sources and found that what I wrote was indeed
> wrong. I hope I got it right now.
>
> Real Western Jutish does not distinguish genders and uses only what in
> other varieties is the common gender (/fælleskøn/). So here is a revision
>
Wikipedia has a map about the distribution of number of genders and about
the distribution of the position of the article: <
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billede:Denmark-gender.png>.

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 23:36:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:36:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.03 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.3.JUN.2008.163614.0700.>

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From: Soenke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (08) [E]

Op'n Di., den 03. Jun.'08, hett Douglas G. Wilson dit Klock 05.13 schreven:

 From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
> Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (03) [E]
>
>  "vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"
>> vynde:   1. winds
>>         2. enemies
>> boddeme: 1. the bottom(s) of a of ship
>>         2. (a) special type of ship(s)
>>         3. (a) shallow part(s) of the sea, near the coast, in
>>            special used in the Baltic Sea
>> maket:   make (3rd pers. sing/pl)
>> gut:     good
>> unde:    and
>>
>> Who is able to solve this conundrum?
>>
>
> Probably not I, since I am ignorant of Low Saxon.
>
> I would guess:
>
> "vynde" = "enemy" (or "devil") (cf. German "Feind")
>
> "boddeme" = "[cargo] ship" (cf. English "bottom" = "[cargo] ship")
>
> "gut" = "cargo" (cf. English "goods", German "Gueter")
>
> Then the aphorism might mean something like "Bad ship, bad cargo; bad
> cargo, bad ship" or so, where "bad" could be either "evil" or "enemy". Exact
> application not obvious to me.
>
> Just a guess.
>
> But it's looking like a good guess after all. Compare this, from Thomas
> Jefferson (1793):
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Q7yp1S0B9lgC&pg=PA282&dq=%22enemy+bottoms%22&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0
>
> <<On the contrary, we suppose it to have been long an established principle
> of the law of nations, that the goods of a friend are free in an enemy's
> vessel, and an enemy's goods lawful prize in the vessel of a friend. The
> inconvenience of this principle, which subjects merchant vessels to be
> stopped at sea, searched, ransacked, led out of their course, has induced
> several nations latterly to stipulate against - it by treaty, and to
> substitute another in its stead, that _free bottoms shall make free goods,
> and enemy bottoms enemy goods,_ a rule equal to the other in point of loss
> and gain, but less oppressive to commerce.>>
>

So the sequence would mean "Enemy ship makes enemy goods, and enemy goods
make enemy ships" or - a bit more elaborated - "An enemy ship makes the
goods in it the enemy's [and therefore confiscable], and enemy goods in a
ship make the ship in whole the enemy's [which points back to the first part
- all goods in the ship get confiscable]".

This is a very lucrative rule (to say the least) compared to Jefferson's new
and old one. By his old rule you were neither entitled to take all stuff in
an enemy's vessel nor to take all stuff if a (neutral) ship transported
enemy goods. By his proposed new rule, you wouldn't be entitled to
confiscate any goods in a (neutral) ship that transported (also) enemy
goods.

Looks like the hansa league wasn't that "hanseaatsch" (demure) when it came
to ransacking "suspicious" ships. ;-)

Regards,
Sönke

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

What you said makes a lot more sense to me, Sönke.

This thing about "wind" was definitely off, if alone for the reason that I
have never seen "wind" spelled with a "v". In Middle Saxon it is always
either *wynd* or *wind*. The "v" was pronounced as [f] (if not as what our
Dutch friends claim they say when they spell "v").

So, *vynd* is a cognate of English "fiend", and it means either "enemy" or
"devil", as you mentioned. ("De vynd" means "the devil" or "Satan".)

 Looks like the hansa league wasn't that "hanseaatsch" (demure) when it came
to ransacking "suspicious" ships. ;-)

It's interesting, though, that the Hanseatic Trading League began as defense
alliance guarding against pirates and wreckers.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 15:11:05 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:11:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.081105.0700.>

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From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> ...
>
> "Crow" is related to Middle German /kros/ or /krös/ (Modern German
> /Gekröse/) and to Dutch /kroos(t)/, both 'mesentary', as well as Dutch
> /kroos/ 'giblets', related also to Low Saxon /Krage/ 'mesentary'. I am
> fairly confident that it is related to English /craw/ (< Old English
> /craƽa/) 'crop (of a bird)', related to Middle Saxon /krage/, Old German
> /chrago/, Danish /krave/, Old Norse /krage/, all 'throat' or 'neck'.
> Furthermore, I believe that this is related to Low Saxon and German /Kragen/
> 'collar'. In cooking, "crow" came to stand for "minor, cheap cuts," mostly
> innards. ....
>

I don't think the etymology of "eat crow" is known with certainty. The
expression in its modern sense is not very old, found from about 1877 last I
knew.

There is a _supposed_ predecessor (ancestral according to claims made as
early as 1880), a joke which was printed repeatedly in US newspapers in the
1850's: a man claimed he could eat anything; he agreed to eat [a cooked]
crow; practical jokers loaded the crow with "Scotch snuff"; the man ate it
with great distaste and discomfort, saying he could eat a crow but that he
didn't desire it (didn't "hanker for it" as it usually appeared). I find
this joke back to 1850. I'm not convinced that this joke was really the
inspiration for the modern idiom, however. I just don't know.

-- Doug Wilson

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (07) [E]

From Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Hugo wrote: There is the archaic Australian slang phrase "stone (starve) the
crows" as an expression of surprise.

It may be archaic Down Under but it's very much alive and kicking here! It's
my 91 yr old mother's favourite expression ( of surprise) and I shall now
make a decided effort to include it in my 1 yr old granddaughter's vocab
over the next few years!

bw

Heather

PS Ron - thanks for your 'umble/ crow' explanation. Very fascinating!
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 17:03:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:03:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.100341.0700.>

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From: Mel Vassey <mel.vassey at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (01) [E]

On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:11 AM, Doug wrote:

I don't think the etymology of "eat crow" is known with certainty. The
expression in its modern sense is not very old, found from about 1877 last I
knew.


I'm not  convinced that it's anything other than a literal expression. My
grandfather grew up in a large family in rural South Carolina before and
during the Great Depression. He actually did eat crow on occasion. The birds
were often shot on sight, as they would damage crops, and times being what
they were, nobody wanted to waste an available protein source. Crows are not
particularly desirable as a game bird, though, as they don't have much meat
relative to their size. My grandfather didn't much care for the flavour,
either.

-------------------------------
Mel Vassey, DVM

http://cabezalana.blogspot.com

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love -
this is the eternal law."  - Buddha

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 17:12:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:12:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.101212.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: Songs

A guy from another mailing list has a question about two songs.
Does someone you recognize it?

"Greetings to all!  I'm looking for assistance from any Dutch or Frisian
speakers on the list.  Because it's off-topic to the list, I'd like to
invite anyone to respond to my personal email instead of the entire
list ... I'm not a fluent Dutch speaker (in fact, I know very little Dutch
at all beyond the basics).  But my grandmother is the daughter of a Dutch
immigrant, and she was raised as an "American Dutch girl" in Iowa. She
just celebrated her 94th birthday, and we've seen a decline in her mental
faculties over the last decade or so.  But one thing she still remembers --
 are the old children's songs that she heard as a girl from her father.
She remembered one song well enough that she could even sing it to my two-
month-old daughter when we came to visit recently -- both in Dutch and
English! Unfortunately, because of her mental condition, she wasn't able
to write the song down.  But she dictated the original words (along with
what I think is a non-literal English translation) to my mother, who did
her best to write down the Dutch sounds phonetically.  We have no idea if
her phonetic guesses are even close to the original Dutch words. Another
complication:  the language might not actually be Dutch, but Frisian,
since her father came to Iowa from Ternaard, in Friesland.  But whichever
language it is, I'd like to find the original words to the song, as well
as a more literal English translation.  Here goes our best attempt at
writing down the song.  (I'm mostly going with the phonetic spelling from
my mother's transcription, rather than guessing what the true words were.
I have a basic clue about Dutch spelling, but I don't know a wit about
Frisian, so I'd rather not even try.)
Original Dutch(?):
Suza nona Popkin  -- (popkje?)
Kelta lyin gropka  -- (gropkje?)
Mam in huis Sofear van hoosSee caneet verrupke(Zij kan niet?)

English gloss: Just a little calf,thereLying in the straw thereMother and
father so far from the houseThey can't hear him crying  Thanks in advance
for any direction anyone can provide! Best regards, :

Chris
On Jun 1, 2008, at 11:45 PM, Ingmar Roerdinkholder wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:21:14 -0500, Eric Christopherson
> <rakko@ > wrote:
>
>> While we're at it, anyone able to identify this song? I don't know
>> what language it is; it might be gibberish for all I know. It goes:
>>
>> /%bEtS@%batS@"beit@
>>  %Indi%ouvI"Steit@   (this part sounds German)
>>  "vIksti%si
>>  "vIksti%su
>>  %kamdi%kEtsl@"ale%su
>>  a"deima%ma
>>  a"deipa%pa
>>  "hupsa%lisa%hupsa%sa/
>
> Ingmar:
>
> betsje batsje beete
> in de oven steet e
> wikstiesie
> wiekstiesoe
> kam de kettel alle soe
> an de mama
> an de papa
> hupsa, Lisa, hupsasa
>
> the first is a nonsense rhyme sentence
> then: in the oven he stands
> nonsentence ??     it won't be XTC ;-)
> nonsentence ??
> came the kettle all so
> to the mama
> to the papa
> whoops, Lisa, come on
>
> Looks like Low Saxon, maybe from Ost-Friesland (Low Saxon speaking
> part of
> Germany, adjacent to the Netherlands Low Saxon speaking province of
> Groningen
> Ingmar

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 18:20:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:20:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.04 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.112008.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.05.25 (02) [E]

 Dear Theo

Subject: LL-L "Anthropology"

I wrote:
...the root-forms of Basque technical language reach
back to a stone-age culture, with the word 'knife'
for example going back to
the name for 'flint' & 'ceiling' means literally
'the roof of the cave'
You wrote:
I'm a bit sorry,  great Mark,
But is this really an argument?
I mean- example:  most words for cup / bowl and so on
in european languages go back to roots for 'skull'.
Not just the Basques have an history going back to the
stone-age.
[And we are going back to a new stone-age; so let's
remember all those words.]
Great???
Flatterer! Apologies for the late response. You are correct of course. We
all descend from Adam, hey? On the other hand, Indo-Germanic for example can
by its terminological features be (persuasively) traced back to a specific
geographic origin & a specific level of technical sophistication, which, I
am open to correction, includes the use of the plough, or at least the ard,
& beasts of burden.
The 'flint' explanation is not my thesis but that of my Basque conversant,
however I accept it for the reason noted above - as ever, subject to
correction.

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 18:23:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:23:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.112354.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (03) [E]

Ha, a classic. I sing it for my little girl as well....
It is Westerlauwer Frisian

Suze nane poppe
kealtsje leit yn'e groppe [ I replace "kealtsje" by my daugther's name, as
is usual in my family, I have also heard "berntsje" = little child here]
Heit en mem sa fier fan hûs,
kin se net beroppe.

"suze" and "nane" are sort of czy, comforting words for children
poppe = baby
kealtsje = little calf (but see remarks; here the asker seems to recall this
version)
leit yn 'e groppe = lies in the ditch [can be part of a stable as well ]
Heit en mem sa fier fan hûs = father and mother so far from home
Kin se net beroppe = cannot reach them by calling out.
[it is kind of sad, as is the melody ]

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Ingmar,

This song and other variants in Frisian, Low Saxon and Dutch dialects of the
Netherlands are listed here, many of them with audio clips from the mid-20th
century:

http://tinyurl.com/67tb96

A Dutch version begins like this:

Suse naane poppe
Kindje ligt in de groppe

As for the other lullaby, "Suze naanje, ik waaige die" being one of the
versions, I once, a long time ago, came across a version in a Northern Low
Saxon dialect of Germany, but I don't remember where. It may have been in
some book. Does anyone know it? But maybe it was in a Low Saxon dialect of
the Netherlands and my border-ignoring mind is playing tricks on me again.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 18:17:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:17:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.111728.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (03) [E]

Ha, a classic. I sing it for my little girl as well....
It is Westerlauwer Frisian

Suze nane poppe
kealtsje leit yn'e groppe [ I replace "kealtsje" by my daugther's name, as
is usual in my family, I have also heard "berntsje" = little child here]
Heit en mem sa fier fan hûs,
kin se net beroppe.

"suze" and "nane" are sort of czy, comforting words for children
poppe = baby
kealtsje = little calf (but see remarks; here the asker seems to recall this
version)
leit yn 'e groppe = lies in the ditch [can be part of a stable as well ]
Heit en mem sa fier fan hûs = father and mother so far from home
Kin se net beroppe = cannot reach them by calling out.
[it is kind of sad, as is the melody ]

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Ingmar,

This song and other variants in Frisian, Low Saxon and Dutch dialects of the
Netherlands are listed here, many of them with audio clips from the mid-20th
century:

http://tinyurl.com/67tb96

A Dutch version begins like this:

Suse naane poppe
Kindje ligt in de groppe

As for the other lullaby, "Suze naanje, ik waaige die" being one of the
versions, I once, a long time ago, came across a version in a Northern Low
Saxon dialect of Germany, but I don't remember where. It may have been in
some book. Does anyone know it? But maybe it was in a Low Saxon dialect of
the Netherlands and my border-ignoring mind is playing tricks on me again.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 00:00:27 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:00:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.170027.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Talking about songs ...

There is a somewhat convenient web resource for locating video recordings of
various types of world music, from authentic folk music via kitchen table
karaoke, home-made spoof and glitzy pop to classical music. Some of it is
great, some of it is embarrassing, especially the lip-synchers that merely
want their mugs to be seen worldwide.

So here it is:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/

It's a nice service (apparently from India or by someone from India in the
UK) and includes music of lesser-encountered or lesser-mentioned ethnic
groups and their languages. It offers hours of entertainment and discovery.
This includes music of our focus area. I will list the URLs of the relevant
pages below.

However, before that a word of warning is in order.  The site is pretty
messy, carelessly thrown together. On Lowlands-specific and other pages
there are tons of miscategorized links. For instance, under "Georgian"
(Kartvelian) you will find links to several songs about the US state of
Georgia, under "Frisian" you will find lots and lots of videos about Frisian
horses, and "Saxon" has nothing to do with Low Saxon or even the "fake
Saxons" of the German state of Saxony. Most of the songs listed under
"English" are not English at all but ended up in this category because they
have the word "English" in the text somewhere, which is also how the Frisian
horses ended up under songs. Under "Pitcairn" there is not a single link to
Pitcairn or Norfolk songs. This is an example of what happens when you rely
on a poor script to capture links automatically. Furthermore, there is at
least one mislabeled link: the second "Hawaiian" label leads to "Hebrew" or
"Israeli". So I give the site a D for thoroughness of execution, a B for
effort, and an A for intention.

Until these pages have been cleaned up (and I am blind-copying the owner
here) you will need to navigate by such faulty links to get to the real
stuff. Nevertheless, it's an effort and a start.

Links to the individual pages are found in the box on the top left. Here are
the Lowlands-related pages:

Afrikaans:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/AfrikaansSongs/tabid/485/Default.aspx?page=1

Dutch:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/DutchSongs/tabid/512/Default.aspx?page=1

English:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/EnglishSongs/tabid/514/Default.aspx?page=1

"Flemish" (i.e., anything Dutch in Belgium):
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/FlemishSongs/tabid/519/Default.aspx?page=1

Frisian:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/FrisianSongs/tabid/521/Default.aspx?page=1

"Pidgin" (includes Tok Pisin and other English-based creoles):
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/PidginSongs/tabid/566/Default.aspx?page=1

"Scots" (including any Scottish song in languages other than Scots):
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/ScotsSongs/tabid/577/Default.aspx?page=1

Not represented are songs in Low Saxon ("Low German") and Limburgish, to
speak for our focus area alone.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 14:07:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:07:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.070748.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.04 (05) [E]

> From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.05.25 (02) [E]
>
>  Dear Theo
>
> Subject: LL-L "Anthropology"
[...]
> You wrote:
> I'm a bit sorry,  great Mark,
> But is this really an argument?
> I mean- example:  most words for cup / bowl and so on
> in european languages go back to roots for 'skull'.
> Not just the Basques have an history going back to the
> stone-age.
> [And we are going back to a new stone-age; so let's
> remember all those words.]
> Great???
> Flatterer! Apologies for the late response. You are correct
> of course. We
> all descend from Adam, hey? On the other hand,
> Indo-Germanic for example can
> by its terminological features be (persuasively) traced
> back to a specific
> geographic origin & a specific level of technical
> sophistication, which, I
> am open to correction, includes the use of the plough, or
> at least the ard,
> & beasts of burden.
> The 'flint' explanation is not my thesis but that
> of my Basque conversant,
> however I accept it for the reason noted above - as ever,
> subject to
> correction.
>
> Yrs,
> Mark

Hi,

Accept my correction, please.
You are not just great, but also humble.
vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 14:24:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:24:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.072440.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.05.31 (05) [A/E]

 Beste Elsie

Onderwerp: LL-L "Language varieties"

Dankie vir u inset.

"Watwou"?! Nou laat jy my lekker herhinner aan C Louis Leipoldt se
uitmuntende karakter, ten spyte sy vertraagde politieke insig (ek deel myne
met hom).

Terloops, die 'wat vir 'n ...' uitdrukking is net so hard gebruik in ons
Noord Traansvaalse geselskap, oftewel almal verstaan en antwoord daarop as
ons famielie die einste gebruik.

Ja, laaskeer (om en by 1980) toe ik mit die Rehaboth Basters doenig is, het
hul hulle puntenêrig van die Volkies afgesonder, heel simpatiek (in sommige
gevalle) maar tog as ander nasie. Ik wil net bayvoeg, ik self ag nie die
konserwatief iets agterlik nie. Dis net die goede, onthouw, mens ayt h'
verlede moet bewaar (sommiges sê 'het' pleks van 'h' '), en dit nie ten
koste van die goede in het hede, nê!

Die Uwe,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Elsie, Mark en almal,

Terloops, in Nedersaksies en Duits gebruik ons ook daardie uitdrukking.

Nedersaksies: *wat voer 'n ...* (*wat för 'n ...*)
Duits: *was für ein ...*

Kan dit wees dat dit een van die gelene Nedersaksiese uitdrukkings in Duits
is?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 14:27:03 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:27:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.072703.0700.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (02) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at Tiscali.co.uk

Mel wrote ; re eating crow "My grandfather didn't much care for the flavour,
either."

Pastai Brain Bach = rook pie in Welsh and it was well known enough to appear
on a tea towel I was given that featured Welsh recipes. I was reliably
informed back in the 70s by a neighbour on Anglesey that rook are like
seagull - best caught live in a trap, kept for a week and fed 'clean' food'
i.e. corn / bread to take away the bad  taste of their flesh. Then they are
killed and just the breasts used to fill a pie.

I wonder whether "The 4 and 20 black birds baked in a pie" were originally
rooks and not 'blackbirds'

Heather

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 18:30:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:30:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (04) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.113059.0700.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]


Isn't this formulation used in a lot more of the Germanic languages? In
Dutch (at least in my idiom) one can say "wat voor een", as in "wa veur 'nen
hongd is da?" what kind of dog is that? (alternatively "hoe een", "how a",
hoe 'nen hongd is da? although this one isn't accepted as correct)
In Scandinavia they say "hvad for nogen"/hvad for en (Danmark), hva for noen
(Eastern Norwegian), ka for nokke (Bergen) = kva for nokon (in Nynorsk)
Gr,
Diederik

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Elsie, Mark en almal,

Terloops, in Nedersaksies en Duits gebruik ons ook daardie uitdrukking.

Nedersaksies: *wat voer 'n ...* (*wat för 'n ...*)
Duits: *was für ein ...*

Kan dit wees dat dit een van die gelene Nedersaksiese uitdrukkings in Duits
is?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi Diederik!

Yes, I think it's a widespread expression. However, it's rather peculiar:
literally "what for one/a {noun}?" I would find it more "natural" if it
where "what one/a {noun}?" (and English "what kind of {noun}?"). In other
words, the "for" is rather weird here and leads me to suspect that it began
as a peculiarity that spread from a single source variety. It is not as old
as to occur in very old writing, and it did not make it to Britain.

Of course, any of the older Lowlands varieties could be the original donor.
However, as you know, Middle Saxon strongly influenced the Scandinavian
languages (and some of this filtered into Faroese and Icelandic due to
Danish dominance). Furthermore, Middle Saxon and Early Modern (Low) Saxon
also influenced the development of Standard German, especially on the
colloquially spoken level, and in the Netherlands it influenced the
development of Standard Dutch. It's in the middle, linking Scandinavia with
Germany proper and with the Low Franconian areas. This is not to exclude the
possibility that Saxon got it from Low Franconian or German and passed it on
to Scandinavia.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 18:33:31 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:33:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.113331.0700.>

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From: clarkedavid8 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (03) [E

Heather wrote:

Pastai Brain Bach = rook pie in Welsh and it was well known enough to appear
on a tea towel I was given that featured Welsh recipes. I was reliably
informed back in the 70s by a neighbour on Anglesey that rook are like
seagull - best caught live in a trap, kept for a week and fed 'clean' food'
i.e. corn / bread to take away the bad  taste of their flesh. Then they are
killed and just the breasts used to fill a pie.


 Only last year I bought a dozen rooks' breasts from Borough market in
London SE1. I stewed them but their flavour was unremarkable - like pigeon.
Perhaps they needed more skilful handling. I havent seen them on sale there
since, however!

David Clarke

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (03) [E]

Of course! Eating Crow may have two different connotations and obviously is
not the best "eating bird". But, Man being omnivorous, we ate birds as soon
as we could get them from the sky with slingshot, glue stick or net.
Therefore the idea of "bird pie" seems to be pretty universal; There is
Chicken Potpie and Tourtiere, but  I think the Moroccan Bisteeyia – Pigeon
Pie with almonds and sugar – is the best of all. Happy munching, Jacqueline
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 21:30:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:30:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (06) [D]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.143008.0700.>

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]

Beste Ron, beste Elsie, beste Mark, allerbeste allen,

'n Reactie op "wat voer' n, uit het Nedersaksisch?
Te Oostende, West-Vlaamse Noordzeekust, gebruiken we dit ook:

Wafre vint? welke man?
Waffer wuuf? welke vrouw?
Wafferain is dadde? welkeen is dat?
Wafferain hé je gie gekoozn? Welke heb jij gekozen?

In grote delen van Bi!nnen-West-Vlaanderen gebruikt men: wukke (d.i. welke)
Aan de westkust en hinterland gebruikt men:wiene

Oostends: wadde is dadde?
West-Vlaamse binnenland: wuk is dadde?
Westkust (De Panne, Nieuwpoort): wiene is dadde?
Soms zegt men schertsend,, als men naar iets vraagt, met één ademstoot:
wiene wukke wadde?

Alle met de betekenis: wat is dat?

Nota: ben verscheidene keren op reis geweest, vandaar mijn "stilzwijgen".
Heb wel alle (en interessante) Lowland-berichten gelezen!
Zoek nu ook naar "vynde boddeme ..."  Ik dacht aan het peilen met een
peillood in onze gevaarlijke met zandbanken bezaaide Noordzee (Vesterhav:
Westzee voor de Scandinaven). Als je goed peilt, vind je de zeebodem en kan
je gezwind varen, je lading goederen veilig in de haven brengen.
"Goed de bodem vinden is goed voor de goederen, goed zorgen voor de goederen
betekent goed (dit is regelmatig) de diepte van de bodem kennen!
Dit zijn, net als bij de andere denkenden en zoekers, slechts enkele
hersenkronkels ... Maar daaraan dacht ik meteen!

Toetnoasteki
Roland Desnerck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Beste Roland,

Het is goed om te weten dat je weer thuis bent.

En bedankt voor de interessante informatie.

Vriendelijke groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 17:22:39 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:22:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.102239.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (04) [A/E]

Hallo Diederik and Ron,  re: "Wat voor een hond is dat?". I am just back
from vacation so I may have missed some of this string. So if I make a fool
of my self; so be it. In Dutch you can also say "Wat voor hond is dat?" or
even "Wat is dat voor een hond?" and also "Wat is *dat* voor hond (stress on
dat)?"

 And my question now becomes. Does this have any similarity to the English
(slang?) "Whatfor", like in "He gave him whatfor"  (gave him a piece of his
mind?

Jacqueline

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 17:25:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:25:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.06 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.102538.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (03) [E]

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (02) [E]
from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at Tiscali.co.uk

I wonder whether "The 4 and 20 black birds baked in a pie" were originally
rooks and not 'blackbirds'
Heather

According to local history in Leicester, they were Richard II's 24
black-clad councillors/advisors.  The song was a protest song by Leicester
bakers on the occasion of a royal visit. A sixpenny tax had been raised on
rye, and they weren't happy, but by complaining against the advisors rather
than the king, they avoided accusations of treason.

Blackbird Road in Leicester is sometimes said to be named in memory of the
event.

Paul Finlow-Bates

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 21:03:55 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:03:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.06 (03) [A]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.140355.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]

Haai julle,

Dankie, Mark, vir die inligting dat julle dour in die Noord Transvaal,
oftewel Limpopo, ook die 'wat virre' gedoente gebryk.

Groete,
Elsie

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Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:04:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.06 (03) [A]
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]

Haai julle,

Dankie, Mark, vir die inligting dat julle dour in die Noord Transvaal,
oftewel Limpopo, ook die 'wat virre' gedoente gebryk.

Groete,
Elsie

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Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:06:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [D]
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Vocabulary"

Hallo,

Nu heb ik een vraagje over het Afrikaans.

Het woord 'doringhout'.
Nu is dit woord niet te vinden in de online woordenboeken.

Maar het gaat mij om: 'swart-doringhout'.

Marais gebruikt het [over de tovenares].

De specifieke vraag is:
is 'swart' hier alleen gebruikt om de soort hout aan te duiden,
of kan ik 'swart' hier begrijpen met een extra betekenis; iets met rituelen
of folklore of plaatselijke gebruiken?

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 21:31:52 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:31:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.143152.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (06) [D]

Haai almal,

Dankie, Roland.

Die vorm "wafre" is baie nader aan my pa se Gariepse uitspreek vorm terwyl
die 'wat vir 'n..."
bloot die geskrewe vorm in Standaard Afrikaans is.

Dus in Gariep Afrikaans:
Wa virre sous is dit daai?
Wa virre nonses hoor ek dat jille ga immigreer?

ensoaanvoort,

Elsie
----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Jacqueline,

You wrote:

Hallo Diederik and Ron,  re: "Wat voor een hond is dat?". I am just back
from vacation so I may have missed some of this string. So if I make a fool
of my self; so be it. In Dutch you can also say "Wat voor hond is dat?" or
even "Wat is dat voor een hond?" and also "Wat is *dat* voor hond (stress on
dat)?"


You set me thinking, when you wrote "Wat is dat voor een hond?".

Maybe this construction was initially interpreted as "What is that, as/for a
dog?". The answer could then be: "For a dog, it's a pretty smart animal". So
"for" was meant to be a classifier, setting the subject apart from other
creatures. I think English has similar constructions, like "For a dog, it's
a clever animal" or "That's pretty clever for a dog". The only difference
with continental Germanic seems to be that Dutch and German also use the
phrase in a question or a suggestion like "Wat voor een hond is dat?".

Could this be the result of continental Germanic having a less strict word
order than English? Or would it rather be typical of older/archaic language?
I have no clue, but I do know that in my native dialect anyway, word order
is much more loosely defined than in standard Dutch. Probably because
dialect is mainly spoken, and speech is more subject to rhythm than written
language.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Jacqueline wrote:

 In Dutch you can also say "Wat voor hond is dat?" or even "Wat is dat voor
een hond?" and also "Wat is *dat* voor hond (stress on dat)?"

German and in Low Saxon of Germany use the these constructions too, but the
first and last have the indefinite article:

   1. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is
   dat?)
   German: Was für ein Hund ist das?

   2. Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is dat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat för een (~ 'n)
   Hund?)
    German: Was ist das für ein Hund?

   3. Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is *dat** *vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is *dat** *för een (~
   'n) Hund?)
    German: Was ist *das** *für ein Hund?

 These can also use the cognate of "then" to emphasize wonderment:

   1. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is den dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund
   is denn dat?)
   German: Was für ein Hund ist denn das?

   2. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is *dat *den? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund
   is *dat *denn?)
   German: Was für ein Hund ist *das *denn?

   3. Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is den dat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is denn dat för een
   (~ 'n) Hund?)
    German: Was ist denn das für ein Hund?

   4. Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is *dat** *den vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat denn för
   een (~ 'n) Hund?)
    German: Was ist *das** *denn für ein Hund?

 Interesting thought there, Luc!

And I am rather suspecting something related to expressions such as "She
used an old shirt for a rag," or "They have a gander for a watchdog." So if
you say, "What for a dog is that?" (if you could say it in English) it would
mean something like "What kind of lame excuse for a dog is that?!"

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:17:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.06 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.201702.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (03) [E]

Thanks for solving the Frisian song I asked about on behalf of someone.
But in the same message he asked about another song. Anyone familiar with
it? Ingmar

>> While we're at it, anyone able to identify this song? I don't know
>> what language it is; it might be gibberish for all I know. It goes:
>>
>> /bEtS@ batS@"beit@
>>  Indi ouvI"Steit@   (this part sounds German)
>>  "vIksti si
>>  "vIksti su
>>  kamdi kEtsl@"ale su
>>  a"deima ma
>>  a"deipa pa
>>  "hupsa lisa hupsa sa/
>
> Ingmar:
>
> betsje batsje beete
> in de oven steet e
> wiksti si
> wiksti su
> kam de ketsle (?) alleen su
> an de mama
> an de papa
> hupsa, Lisa, hupsasa
>
> the first is a nonsense rhyme sentence
> then: in the oven he stands
> nonsentence ??     it won't be XTC ;-)
> nonsentence ??
> came the kettle all so
> to the mama
> to the papa
> whoops, Lisa, come on
>
> Looks like Low Saxon, maybe from Ost-Friesland (Low Saxon speaking
> part of
> Germany, adjacent to the Netherlands Low Saxon speaking province of
> Groningen
> Ingmar

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 03:20:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:20:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (07) [E]
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (05) [A/E]

1.      Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is dat?)
German: Was für ein Hund ist das?

2.      Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
Low Saxon: Wat is dat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat för een (~ 'n) Hund?)
German: Was ist das für ein Hund?

3.      Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
Low Saxon: Wat is *dat *vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is *dat *för een (~ 'n)
Hund?)
German: Was ist *das *für ein Hund?

These can also use the cognate of "then" to emphasize wonderment:

1.      Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is den dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is
denn dat?)
German: Was für ein Hund ist denn das?

2.      Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is *dat *den? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is
*dat *denn?)
German: Was für ein Hund ist *das *denn?

3.      Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
Low Saxon: Wat is den dat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is denn dat för een (~
'n) Hund?)
German: Was ist denn das für ein Hund?

4.      Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
Low Saxon: Wat is *dat *den vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat denn för een (~
'n) Hund?)
German: Was ist *das *denn für ein Hund?

Interesting thought there, Luc!

And I am rather suspecting something related to expressions such as "She
used an old shirt for a rag," or "They have a gander for a watchdog." So if
you say, "What for a dog is that?" (if you could say it in English) it would
mean something like "What kind of lame excuse for a dog is that?!"

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Hallo Ron en Luc. Since we are all going to the dogs I might as well add
some more fuel to the fire:

1st Ron says:

These can also use the cognate of "then" to emphasize wonderment:

   1. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is den dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund
   is denn dat?)
   German: Was für ein Hund ist denn das?
   2. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is *dat *den? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund
   is *dat *denn?)
   German: Was für ein Hund ist *das *denn?
   3. Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is den dat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is denn dat för een
   (~ 'n) Hund?)
   German: Was ist denn das für ein Hund?
   4. Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is *dat *den vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat denn för een
   (~ 'n) Hund?)
   German: Was ist *das *denn für ein Hund?

Indeed Dutch does this too, but if I say "Wat is dat dan voor een hond?" I
am not only wondering, I am also excluding this particular animal from the
rest of the pack. F.i. if there is one Labradoodle in a kennel full of
Poodles. Am I right in assuming that the same mechanism holds for Low Saxon
and even German for that matter?

2nd, Luc, you say:

The only difference with continental Germanic seems to be that Dutch and
German also use the phrase in a question or a suggestion like "Wat voor een
hond is dat?".

Could this be the result of continental Germanic having a less strict word
order than English? Or would it rather be typical of older/archaic language?
I have no clue, but I do know that in my native dialect anyway, word order
is much more loosely defined than in standard Dutch. Probably because
dialect is mainly spoken, and speech is more subject to rhythm than written
language.

I think that you are right when you say that Dutch has a less strict word
order than English, but I am not so sure about German. However, I do agree
with your notion that speech is more subject to shifts in emphasis and
rhythm which give it a more subtle flavor. It is in this respect that
dialects can shine as do "street languages" of all kinds.  It is in the
process of writing that we stultify the language through lack of these
mechanisms. A lot of written Dutch is horribly contorted, especially the
language of officiaIdom. I do not know about you, but I am certainly more
eloquent when speaking than when writing. Of course this difficulty is
partially alleviated by the use of idiomatic expression to give the language
more color, still I always admire the discipline of those writers that
manage to get their ideas across without becoming too colloquial. It is
horribly difficult to use one's hands to write the language instead of
speaking with them.

In that respect it must be interesting to be bilingual, like you probably
are, in two languages; one of which depends on grammar and the other which
depends on idioms to vary color and emotion. But that is a horse of an
entirely different color.

Heb een plezierig weekend. Jacqueline
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 04:59:56 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:59:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.06 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.215956.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Folks,

Most of you will remember the Middle Saxon expression our Jonny posted the
other day.

In the meantime I located it on page 16 of the following book, a collection
of documents from Lübeck's Hanseatic era: *1461-1465*, vol. 10 of *Lübeckisches
Urkundenbuch*; part 1 of Codex diplomaticus lubecensis, Urkundenbuch der
Stadt Lübeck; Lübeck: Edmund Schmersahl Nachf., 1898.

Hopefully, the context of the entire letter in which it appears will allow
us to tell what exactly it means. It seems to have helped me, but I let you
be the judges of that.

The German introduction:
Ein Ungenannter bittet den Rath von Lübeck, die Kaufleute zu warnen, da er
sich an dem König von Dänemark rächen wolle. 1461. Feb. 21

My translation:
An unidentified person is asking the (City) Council of Lübeck to warn the
merchants, because he wants to take revenge on the King of Denmark. Feb. 21,
1461

The Middle Saxon text:

Cover:
*Den vorsichtigen wolwisen borgermesteren vnde radtmannen der stat Lubek
detur hec.*

Body:
*Mynen wilghen steden ghehorsam vnderdanyghen denst nw vnde alle weghe
stedes touoren.
     Ersamen leffuen heren. So do ich jw fruntliken to weten, dat my de
koningh van Dannemarken groten schaden hefft ghedan vnde hefft my
vordarffuet bet an de grvnt. Vnde dat wolde ich gerne an em wreken, offte
ich konde etc. Vortmer do ich jw to weten, dat ich vppe den samer werde my
maken in de see, vnde vmme des willen warnet juwen koppman, dat se nyn gut
schepen vppe de vynde boddeme edder och nyn schipper neme nyn gut vppe syne
boddeme, dat in de rike to hus hort, wente vynde boddeme maket vynde gut
vnde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme. Ersamen leuen heren. Darvmme so do ich
jw warnynghe, dat ich node jw edder den juwen nynen schaden wolde don. Juwe
ersamycheyde do ich beuelen Gode deme almechtigen.
*
*     Gescreuen to Rugewolt, an Vnser vrouwen dage to Lichtmissen, anno
Domini etc. LXI°.
*
My (fairly literal) translation:

Cover:
*Detur hec*, to the assiduous, judicious Mayor and Councilmen of the City of
Lübeck

Body:
First and foremost (I offer) my eager, humble service now, always and
everywhere.
     Dear, honourable gentlemen, I herewith have you kindly know that the
King of Denmark hath caused me great damage and hath ruined me ("to the
ground" =) thoroughly. And for this I desire to retaliate against him if I
can etc. Furthermore I have you know that this summer (?) I shall set out to
sea. For this reason (please) warn your merchants that they not ship (any) (
*gut *=  goods =) merchandise upon (*vynde boddeme* =) (the) enemy('s)
waters or likewise no skipper taketh merchandise upon his waters that are
owned by the realm, for (*vynde boddeme maket vynde gut vnde vynde gut maket
vynde boddeme* =) enemy's waters make enemy's merchandise and enemy's
merchandise maketh enemy's waters(?).
     Dear, honourable gentlemen, therefore I give you herewith forewarning,
for I desire not to cause you or yours harm. I command your respectability
to God the Almighty.
     Written at Rugewolt* on Our Lady's day of Candlemass, *anno Domini *etc.
LXI°.

* [Low Saxon *Rügenwoold*, German *Rügenwalde*, Kashubian *Dirlowò*, Polish
*Darłowo*; in Kashubia, Poland, once under Hanseatic and Danish rule; full
name: *Królewskie Miasto Darłowo
* (The Royal City of Darłowo)]

Suggestions and comments would be welcome.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 05:12:05 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 22:12:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (09) [A/D]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.221205.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [D]

 Beste Theo

Onderwerp: LL-Languages "Vocabulary"

u Vraag:
Het woord 'doringhout'.
Nu is dit woord niet te vinden in de online woordenboeken.

Maar het gaat mij om: 'swart-doringhout'.

Marais gebruikt het [over de tovenares].

De specifieke vraag is:
is 'swart' hier alleen gebruikt om de soort hout aan te duiden,
of kan ik 'swart' hier begrijpen met een extra betekenis; iets met rituelen
of folklore of plaatselijke gebruiken?

Mark:
In ons dorre land is vol vele boomgewasse en struikgewasse met allerlei
dorings voorsien, beide sagte- en harde-houtsoorte, in verskeie opsigte
toepaslik vir verskillende gebruik. Weet u van watter houtsoort vermeld
word, en vir watter gebruik? Kan dit die 'swartdoring' of 'swarthaak'
(acasia detinens) wees? (Goeie hout, maar 'n slegte gewas, wat soete
weivelde soms indring). Die ding is, uit die inheemse boomsoorte kan ek aan
net twee boomsoorte met mantieke gebruik dink, en nie een van hulle is
doringagtig nie - maar wel *giftig*!

Betreffende ander eienskappe: Sommige doringhout te sag vir houtwerk en
sommiges selfs nie die moeite werd vir brandhout nie, maar miskien lewer die
laasgenoemdes waardevolle beeste- of bokke-voer.

Die uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 17:08:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:08:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.100812.0700.>

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: "Idiomatica" ?

The past two weeks we had relations from the US in our home. Discussing the
trips to be made, one of the subjects was the distance of such trips. On
this side of the ocean cars measure distance in kilometers. Nothing special
so far. It is the pronunciation of the word kilometer that fascinated me, as
it had many times before. The visit from the US brought it back to my
attention.

Our US visitors pronounce the word kilometer stressing the o: kil*o*meter.
Nothing special, this is what almost everyone does. However, what everyone
does is not necessarily the right thing.

The pronunciation of kilometer as kil*o*meter is completely analogous with
the pronunciation of words like barometer and thermometer. The analogy may
be the very reason for it. Most words ending on …*o*meter however are
instruments of measurement. For that reason one might rather think that a
kil*o*meter is an instrument for measuring kilo's, than a measure of
distance.
When indicating the distance of a thousand meters, a more proper
pronunciation would probably be: *ki*lometer, stressing the first syllable.
We do the same thing with *ki*lobytes when a thousand bytes are meant. Why
change it when it comes to meters?

*Ki*lometer may be more proper, but even if it is, it still seems odd to be
the only one pronouncing the word properly.

The bottom line is I brought myself into the situation of finding both ways
of pronunciation odd. I either do it completely wrong, or I seem to
show off knowing
it all better. Avoiding to speak in terms of kilometers is no option in this
country……

 Is there any verdict given before on this matter. Is there such a thing as
a right pronunciation?. Has anyone dealt with the "problem" before? What was
your solution?

Groetjes,

Fred van Brederode
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 17:12:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:12:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.101233.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

Body:
First and foremost (I offer) my eager, humble service now, always and
everywhere.
     Dear, honourable gentlemen, I herewith have you kindly know that the
King of Denmark hath caused me great damage and hath ruined me ("to the
ground" =) thoroughly. And for this I desire to retaliate against him if I
can etc. Furthermore I have you know that this summer (?) I shall set out to
sea. For this reason (please) warn your merchants that they not ship (any) (
*gut *=  goods =) merchandise upon (*vynde boddeme* =) (the) enemy('s)
waters or likewise no skipper taketh merchandise upon his waters that are
owned by the realm, for (*vynde boddeme maket vynde gut vnde vynde gut maket
vynde boddeme* =) enemy's waters make enemy's merchandise and enemy's
merchandise maketh enemy's waters(?).

I thought somebody on the list earlier on had already pointed out that
"boddeme" refers to a special kind of ship.
The riddle would then mean that you can't separate the ship from the goods
it is carrying, if either one belongs to your enemy, the whole lot can be
confiscated.
For a while however, I was thinking that "boddeme" could also mean "Boden"
(G), "territory"/"waters", like in Nazi-terminology "Blut und Boden", which
ties the rights of inhabitants to the land on which they're living (don't
get me started on this...it's the main source of trouble here in
Brussels/Belgium because Dutch and French communities are
fundamentally...grundsätzlich  :-D ...different in this respect).
In this view, the riddle would become awkward, because "enemy's merchandise
maketh enemy's waters" would mean that the presence of foreign goods on home
territory would automatically change the status of the territory. This
reminds me more of a Latin, or even a nomadic culture, than of a Germanic
one.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 18:11:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:11:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.111114.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Hi, Luc, and thanks for the response about this *boddeme* thing.

I get your point, and you and whoever advanced the ship theory may well be
correct.

Here is what swayed me (and I'm still not totally married to it):

   1. As Jonny mentioned, *boddem* also denotes shallow coastal waters. Even
   in German the loanword *Boddom* is still used to refer to certain
   stretches of shallow water along the Baltic Sea coast. So, I simply meant
   coastal waters, in this case those then regarded as being part of Danish
   territory. Yes, *Boddem* still means 'bottom' in Modern Low Saxon, but I
   don't think the German idea of *Boden* comes into it (leave alone *Blut
   und Boden*).

   2. This volume contains hundreds of Hanseatic documents, mostly
   correspondence, of a four-year period in the 15th century. Yet this short
   letter is the only one mentioning *boddem(e)*. If it means 'ship' and
   'ships', why are *ship* and *schepe* mentioned everywhere else rather
   than *boddeme*? If *boddom *is indeed a type of ship, was it meant to
   refer specifically to a type that only the Danes used? If so, does anyone
   know so from Danish history?

I agree that there is some awkwardness in translating "... and enemy's
merchandise maketh enemy's (territorial) waters." My immediate "intuitive"
interpretation was that this was a reference to real or *de facto* piracy,
namely claiming an area to be one's own to justify "confiscating" ships and
their contents. What this person wrote was a blatant threat, the message
being something like, "The Danes stole from me [probably by way of
"confiscating" his merchandise], and I'm going to make them pay back. So,
everyone, stay away from their territorial waters, or else we'll treat you
as the enemy!" How would he take revenge other than doing to them what they
did to him? Since he and his cohorts did not represent a sovereign nation
(and may or may not have acted without the blessings of the Hanseatic
League), they cannot be seen as a counterpart of Denmark, a sovereign
nation, even if it was considered an intrusive colonial power in that area
which the Hanseats had rather have power over in their usual *de facto*manner.

Let's remember that the borderline between "legitimate" and "illegitimate"
aggression has always been a thin one. One person's confiscation was another
person's piracy. What is now Northern Germany only had very loose
administrative structure at the time, not much overall power despite
Frankish annexation about 500 years earlier. Much of the time, the Hanseatic
Trading League ruled supreme on account of its economic power. In real
terms, it dominated domestic ports and their hinterlands and elsewhere
claimed territories by way of trading posts. As they did in Bergen,  Let's
also remember that the League had begun as a defense force against piracy,
so it was not only a benign merchants' association.

But wait! There's more! A clarifying message from our Arthur just arrived,
and I will let it speak for itself.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Dear Ron, Luc, jah anthareis:

"...vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme..."

In the Hanseatic League, and thence into maritime parlance generally,
"boddeme" meant the hold or other cargo space of a commercial ship. Maritime
law still uses the term "Bottomry Brief" for a type of promissory note or
lien note to secure title to a cargo. The German legal term is
"Bodmereibrief".

Thus, I believe the translation should be "enemy cargo maketh the hold to
enemy; and an enemy hold maketh the cargo to enemy."

Goljai thuk.

Arthur
ARTHUR A. JONES

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 19:22:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:22:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (04) [E]
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]

Beste Fred,

Kilometer is not the only word of this type. We also pronounce *ki*logram, *
ki*localorie, *ki*lojoule and *ki*lowat. Our pronunciation follows the
official rule for the pronunciation of the Dutch Compound Noun, which says,
very freely translated,                                "When we pronounce a
compound noun the Stress will fall on the first part of the noun, but the
noun will have the gender of the second part."


                    Take
"*wereld*tournooi"  and  "*wereld*kampioen": both Compound Nouns are
pronounced with stress on the first compound, but *wereld*tournooi is a
neutral "het" noun because it is het tournooi; *Wereld*kampioen is a "de"
word because de kampioen is a noun with common gender.

Just to make you happy we say "stad*huis*" and we say *Rotter*dam and Amster
*dam*. Go figure! De taal van mensen is, net als de mens zelf, illogisch.

Prettige Zondag. Jacqueline
----------

From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]

Hello, everyone.

Fred van Brederode brought up an interesting point when he wrote:

"... what everyone does is not necessarily the right thing.

The pronunciation of kilometer as kil*o*meter is completely analogous with
the pronunciation of words like barometer and thermometer. The analogy may
be the very reason for it. Most words ending on …*o*meter however are
instruments of measurement. For that reason one might rather think that a
kil*o*meter is an instrument for measuring kilo's, than a measure of
distance.
When indicating the distance of a thousand meters, a more proper
pronunciation would probably be: *ki*lometer, stressing the first syllable.
We do the same thing with *ki*lobytes when a thousand bytes are meant. Why
change it when it comes to meters?

*Ki*lometer may be more proper, but even if it is, it still seems odd to be
the only one pronouncing the word properly.

The bottom line is I brought myself into the situation of finding both ways
of pronunciation odd."

Does this discomfort result from the fact that speakers of germanic
languages have stronger accents than other european languages?  Our tendency
to accent the first important syllable is in contrast to the less accented
(and therefore more open to different pronunciations and nuances) original
forms of italic and hellenic roots and coined terms. Look at the English
pronunciations of *pho*tograph, pho*to*graphy, and photo*graph*ic. This
convention is well accepted and regular but may have little to do with Greek
patterns of emphasis.

In English we do not consistently indicate that a word is borrowed from a
foreign language by moving the accent. We say either "ho*tel*" or "*ho*tel"
depending on dialect or suitability for desired speech rhythms. It seems to
me that saying "*ki*lometer" makes it sound like an imitation home-grown
word. That is how I pronounced it as a child, knowing the word only from the
written language. This sounds "right" to my English-Saxish conditioned
brain. It also sounds very wrong for a word made up of mediterranean roots.
Hence the dilemma that Fred and I both share.

Be well.
John Howland

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Fred,

As alluded to by John above, this stress pattern makes a lot of sense to the
average speaker of American English because it is a case of analogy and
application of "Greek stress." "Greek stress" falls on the antepenultimate
syllable, even if it does not do so in the donor language, as in "análogy",
"apócalypse", "híerarchy", "archepélago", "metamórphosis", "écstacy",
"geógraphy", "cáliper", "hármony", "théorem", "théory" and "ephémeral". This
appears to be an old rule in which fairly frequent stress pattern in Greek
(e.g. διάμετρος *di**ámetros*) has been generalized.

Words containing "metre" ~ "meter" (< μέτρον *m**étron*) tend to be analyzed
and thus stressed as Greek loans, such as "diámeter", "micrómeter",
"barómeter", "thermómeter", "speedómeter", "tachómeter" and "odómeter". Seen
in this light, the pronunciation "kilómeter" makes sense. However, it is not
consistently applied, as in "céntimeter" (not *"centímeter") and
"míllimeter" (not *"millímeter"). It has been said that this Greek pattern
should only apply where "meter" is a measuring instrument. This is a rule of
thumb only, considering the case of "diámeter". But remember that the US are
still steadfast in their refusal to join the rest of the world in using the
metric system. So the average American isn't all that familiar with those
"foreign" units of measure.

I don't think there's any right and wrong, just dialectical variation. And
there are other cases in which Americans find non-American stress patterns
very strange, such as "contróversy" (vs US "cóntroversy") and "applícable"
(vs US "ápplicable").

In general, however, American English is more flexible when it comes to
stress assignment. It is less ready to Germanicize words, especially words
of Romance origin. (This may be because of long-term exposure to Spanish,
French and many other languages). British "gáraazh" ~ "gáridge" for "garage"
(US "garáazh") and "hárass" (US "haráss"), for example, sound very strange
to US American ears.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 21:58:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:58:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.07 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.145809.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: ll-l Inspirational words

Dear All,

My thesis is _nearly_ at submission.  For those of you who are interested,
the draft is at
http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~prar100/<http://www-users.york.ac.uk/%7Eprar100/>

I am looking for three things ....

Each section is introduced with a little quotation.  Mostly, these are
Dutch, or in English but relating to Lowlands.  For example, I use
Washington Irving's "Whenever, therefore, he happened upon a genuine Dutch
family, snugly shut up in its low-roofed farmhouse, under a spreading
sycamore, he looked upon it as a little clasped volume of black-letter, and
studied it with the zeal of a book-worm" as an introduction to the use of
wall-anchors (muurankers) in letter and number forms.

I am missing two quotations!  I need something to introduce medieval
building training practices, and I need something better than I've got
already to introduce the typology of wall anchors.

So, do you know a poem or song or piece of prose that talks about
learning/craft transmission (preferably from the middle ages), or something
that talks about diversity or decoration (can be any period, and any
language, with a Lowlands connection)?

Thirdly, I want to employ someone to proof-read the bibliography.  I am
dyslexic, and my Dutch is Very Very Bad.  I don't expect the proofreader to
do more that say 'this entry needs checking' - checking is up to me! If you
are interested in 2 or 3 hours work, spotting possible typos in a
bibliography, please drop me a line off-list.  I will pay by cheque or bank
transfer (UK) or paypal if not UK.

If everything goes to plan, I submit by 30th June, am viva'd late September
or early October, and am all finished by Christmas ... at which point I
become my own woman again, and properly contribute to this list.

Cheers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Congratulations on having come this far, Pat! The project looks great so
far.

I hope you'll find the needed help.

In the meantime I for one will be cheering you on!

Best wishes,
Reinhard(without-a-t) "Ron" Hahn

�

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Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]
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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: Culture?

Nothing linguistic, though still of cultural importance, I'd like to bring
up an observation.

In the beginning of this year I announced on our LL list the trip I was
going to make a trip to San Francisco. I have been back for ages again, but
looking at the pictures I remember a large building in the city center
flying a Dutch (Netherlands) flag: the horizontal tricolor of red, white and
blue bands. It was not the Dutch consulate or something and I remember
having seen this on the east coast (at least in New England) on a rather
large scale. Especially antique shops there fly the tricolor flag. Sometimes
they have the word "open" printed in the middle (white) band.

The legend says that Dutch was only this close to becoming the official
language of the US. We are quite convinced these days that this truly is a
legend, but the flying tricolors on the other hand are really there. Could
it be true that the independent US always regretted the British took over
and longed back for the Peter Stuijvesandt era with the good old red, white
and blue bands. Will this explain their flagging behaviour? Or would there
be some other explanation?

Groeten

Fred van Brederode
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi again, Fred!

Let me just remind you that our focus does include culture and history
besides language. So no apologies needed.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 22:05:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:05:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.150509.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]

At 01:08 PM 07/06/2008, Fred van Brederode wrote:

The past two weeks we had relations from the US in our home. Discussing the
trips to be made, one of the subjects was the distance of such trips. On
this side of the ocean cars measure distance in kilometers. Nothing special
so far. It is the pronunciation of the word kilometer that fascinated me, as
it had many times before. The visit from the US brought it back to my
attention. etc.


If I am not mistaken, originally the idea was that for measurements greater
than one meter, the Greek pronunciation would be used, such as in iambic
pentameter, odometer, speedometer, etc.  For measurements less than one
meter, the Latin was to be employed, as in millimeter, centimeter, usw.

BTW, on this side of the ocean, we also measure things in metric (and indeed
the U.S. standard is based on the metric standard, BION).  In fact, the US
is the ONLY country on this side of the world which does not measure highway
distances in meters.  I think the other country not commonly using metric is
Burma.

All that being said, the Canadian government in its infinite wisdom decided
some thirty years ago that everyone should use the Latin pronunciation for
measurements greater than one meter.

If your US friends are confused, they are not alone.  However, if they think
that the US system is simpler, just give them this quiz.  Which is heavier,
an ounce of feathers or an ounce of gold.  Wrong.  Gold is measured in
apothecary ounces, which are heaver than regular ounces.  Next question:
which is heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of gold.  Wrong again:
there are only twelve ounces in an apothecary pound, and sixteen in the
regular.

To which they will answer, "If God wanted us to go metric, he would have
given us ten Apostles instead of twelve."

However, Canadians are somewhat used to living with two systems, because
before metrification, we used the Imperial system, which had smaller ounces
and bigger gallons, different cup sizes (measuring cups, idiot), and
different measuring spoon sizes.

The bottom line is I brought myself into the situation of finding both ways
of pronunciation odd. I either do it completely wrong, or I seem to
show off knowing
it all better. Avoiding to speak in terms of kilometers is no option in this
country……


I usually make my point by telling people that I have 120,000 KILO-meters
showing on my ODO-meter.

Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Canada.  That's CAN-da.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 22:06:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:06:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (08) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.150649.0700.>

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From: Hugo Zweep <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (03) [E]

Dear Ron et al
I am diffident about mixing into such an elevated argument but have
instinctively recalled bottom as being associated with shipping.

I've now looked up Van Dale and find the meaning of "bodem" as including

   - onderste gedeelte van de romp van een schip
   - schip: *de onderhebbende bodem *waarover men het bevel heeft

Does that help?

Hugo Zweep

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 03:19:39 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:19:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.07 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.201939.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Moin, Ingmar!

You asked about another song and thought it might be in Low Saxon:

>> /bEtS@ batS@"beit@
>>  Indi ouvI"Steit@   (this part sounds German)
>>  "vIksti si
>>  "vIksti su
>>  kamdi kEtsl@"ale su
>>  a"deima ma
>>  a"deipa pa
>>  "hupsa lisa hupsa sa/
>
> Ingmar:
>
> betsje batsje beete
> in de oven steet e
> wiksti si
> wiksti su
> kam de ketsle (?) alleen su
> an de mama
> an de papa
> hupsa, Lisa, hupsasa
>
> the first is a nonsense rhyme sentence
> then: in the oven he stands
> nonsentence ??     it won't be XTC ;-)
> nonsentence ??
> came the kettle all so
> to the mama
> to the papa
> whoops, Lisa, come on

This is more likely to be a German variety, and it's about kittens (*Kätzle*).
("ale should be *alle* 'all', not *alleen* 'alone')

Might it be an German American variety? Pennsylvania German?

Talking about such, there is a website dedicated to English and "German"
varieties of the United States. (Native American ones will be added.)

http://csumc.wisc.edu/AmericanLanguages/

There are recordings with English translations.

Under "German Dialects" there are four Low Saxon varieties:

Ostfälisch (Eastphalian)
Holsteinisch
Pommersch (Pomeranian)
Oderbrüchisch (mixed with German)

OK, Ingster, I think I'm getting warm regarding your song request. There is
a children's song of Untersteinbach, Upper Palatinate (*Oberpfalz*),
Bavaria, near the Czech border, recorded in 1910 (
http://www.heinlenews.de/geschl10a.htm):

Bitsche, batsche, Peter
hinterm Ofe stehtr,
hol a schleckigs Hütle uf,
klopft mit'm Prüchele allweil druf.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
A floppy hat upon his head,
Keeps hitting it with a cudgel.

Apparently there are several variants of this song, probably from several
places; e.g. with a cat:

Bitsche, batsche Peter
hinterm Ofen steht er,
Flickt sein Schuh und schmiert sein Schuh.
Kommt die alte Katz dazu,
Frisst die Schmeer und frisst die Schuh,
Frisst die Schuh und frisst die Schmeer,
frisst mir alle Teller leer.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
Mending his shoe(s) and greasing his shoe(s),
And the old cat walks up to him,
Eats the grease and eats the shoe(s),
Eats the shoe(s) and eats grease,
Eats and cleans up all my plates.

Another one with a cat:

Pitsche, patsche Peter,
hinterm Ofen steht er,
putzt die Stiefel, putzt die Schuh,
kommt die schwarze Katz' dazu,
frisst den Peter samt die Schuh'.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
Brushing boots, brushing shoes.
The black cat walks up to him,
Eats our Peter shoes and all.

An adult has a small child on their lap facing them. They clap their hands
and the adult lifts and lowers their knees in the rhythm of the song. When
it comes to the eating part, the adult makes the child fall backward.

Usually without the clapping, we used to sing another song, and the action
is called "Hoppe Reiter machen", "to play gee-gees" in English:

Hoppe, hoppe, Reiter!
Wenn er fällt, dann schreit er.
Fällt er in den Grapen,
fressen ihn die Raben.
Fällt er in dem Sumpf,
(dann) macht der Reiter plumps.

 My translation:
Bouncy, bouncy rider!
If he fell he'd scream.
If he fell into the ditch
The ravens would devour him.
If he fell into the swamp
The rider 'd go down with a thud.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:18:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:18:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.08 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.101818.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (04) [E]

An important note is that stress is effectively frozen in the actual
realization of the sounds in words, which seems to often be
non-productive. One cannot simply "correct" the stress pattern of a
word after the fact as the orignally reduced phonemes' underlying
forms have effectively been lost. Take the word "garage" for instance
- the pronunciation [gəːˈʁaːʃ] or [gəːˈʁaːtʃ] here reflects and
underlying /gəˈraʒ/ not /geˈraʒ/; if it reflected the latter, then one
would in practice get alternation between reduced and unreduced
vowels, which does not show up here. Hence, the equivalent
diachronically expected forms with initial stress, [ˈgɛ̝ːʁɨːʃ] or
[ˈgɛ̝ːʁɨːtʃ], are effectively inaccessible except through borrowing
from other English dialects. Furthermore, the phonemic vowel qualities
effectively encode where stress "should" be placed, as true /ə/ not
before /r/ or /l/ is already reduced in the first place. (There are
phonological reasons why I consider such to be distinct from /ʌ/ in
stressed syllables here)

The closest one can do is base the patterns within new words
constructed from older words off synchronically existing alternations
associated with the morphemes used in the words in question. Take
"photograph" [ˈfo(ɾ̥)əːgʁɛ̯̆æ̆f] , "photography" [fəˈtʰaːgʁəfiː],
"photographic" [fo(ɾ̥)əːˈgʁɛ̯̆æ̆fɨʔk], "photographically"
[fo(ɾ̥)əːˈgʁɛ̯̆æ̆fɨʔkx̆ɰiː], and "photographer" [fəˈtʰaːgʁəfʁ̩ː] for
instance. I would myself not consider such to actually reflect any
sort of synchronically productive mobile stress but rather three
distinct allomorphs of its synchronic root "photograph", specifically
/ˈfotəgrɛ̯æf/, /fəˈtagrəf/, and /fotəˈgrɛ̯æf/, whose actual
distribution are determined as much by morphology and analogy as
phonology. And while the two allomorphs /ˈfotəgrɛ̯æf/ and
/fotəˈgrɛ̯æf/ are derivable from each other in the sense that primary
stress is only moved between syllables which would be stressed in
realization, they cannot derive nor be derived from the allomorph
/fəˈtagrəf/ as its stress falls on a syllable which is unstressed in
the other two allomorphs and whose original underlying form has
subsequently been lost in them. Once again, said underlying forms
having been permanently phonemically reduced is shown by the lack of
free variation between stressed and unstressed realizations in words
using particular allomorphs.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks and bravo, Travis! This is certainly important to realize in cases of
languages such as English, Scots and other languages (such as Russian) that
have unpredictable stress assignment and significant vowel reduction in
"un"-stressed syllable.

This is not to say that certain phenomena of vowel reduction do not occur in
other languages as well, including those in the Lowlands.

Interestingly, Low Saxon tended to aim for easier management by reducing to
zero unstressed syllables in borrowed nouns with final stress; French *
courage* [kuˈʀaːʒ] > *kraasch' *[krɒːʒ] ~ *kraasch* [krɒːʃ] 'courage',
(Latin *advocatus*) > *Afkaat *[ʔafˈkʰɒːt] 'lawyer', 'barrister', Greek
αποθήκη *apothḗk**ē* > Latin *apotheca* > *Apteek* [ʔapˈtʰɛɪk] ~
*Afteek*[ʔafˈtʰɛɪk] (> Kashubian
*apteka*, Polish *apteka*, Russian аптека *apteka*, Latvian *aptieka*,
Estonian *apteek*, Finnish *apteeki*) 'pharmacy'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:47:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:47:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.08 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.104725.0700.>

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From: Soenke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (03) [E]

Op'n Sa., den 07. Jun.'08, hett R. F. Hahn dit Klock 20.11 schreven:

Hi Ron, Jonny and all,

even though the puzzle seems to be solved by Arthur Jones' remarks, I have a
few thoughts left on it.

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

 Hi, Luc, and thanks for the response about this boddeme thing.
>
> I get your point, and you and whoever advanced the ship theory may well be
> correct.
>
> Here is what swayed me (and I'm still not totally married to it):
> As Jonny mentioned, boddem also denotes shallow coastal waters. Even in
> German the loanword Boddom is still used to refer to certain stretches of
> shallow water along the Baltic Sea coast.
>
Do you refer to "Bodden" here, as in "Greifswalder Bodden"?

 So, I simply meant coastal waters, in this case those then regarded as
> being part of Danish territory. Yes, Boddem still means 'bottom' in Modern
> Low Saxon, but I don't think the German idea of Boden comes into it (leave
> alone Blut und Boden).
>
Is "Bodde*m*" above a typo, or a LS word I don't know? To my knowledge there
are two words in LS that I suppose to be cognates of E "bottom" (ground;
also: buttocks), D "bodem" (ground; also: ship), Swedish "botten" (ground).
These are
1. Böyn (~Böön, Böhn) - attic, ceiling, cf. G (Dach-)Boden
2. Bodden (~Borden, Borrn) - ground, area (of land), soil

While at least in modern Low Saxon certainly the word "Grund" would be used
to evoke the associations linked to "Boden" in German (as in G "Auf meinem
Boden ...", LS "Op mien Grund ...", "On my [premises/property/estates](?)..."),
I don't know whether this was the case during the middle-ages as well...

 This volume contains hundreds of Hanseatic documents, mostly
> correspondence, of a four-year period in the 15th century. Yet this short
> letter is the only one mentioning boddem(e). If it means 'ship' and 'ships',
> why are ship and schepe mentioned everywhere else rather than boddeme?
>

Besides Arthur Jones' explanation, which I find more convincing, the reason
could be that Jonny's sentence was a proverb/idiom/rule of thumb, already
old at that time. Everybody would have known its meaning, but it would
rarely have been written down in formal letters to and from the "honourable
gentlemen" of the hansa league. Similarly, "First come, first serve" is a
widely used legal principle, but I assume you won't find it very often in
legal writs.

Have a nice day!
Sönke

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Sönke, for those excellent points!

Yes, *Boddem* ~ *Bodden* was an error on my part.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:49:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:49:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.08 (03) [A]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.104907.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [D]

Haai almal,

Theo, sê tog asb uit watter gedig dit kom sodat ek die woord binne konteks
kan bekyk?
Is dit deur Eugene Marais?

Elsie
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:57:39 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:57:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.08 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.105739.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.07 (09) [E]

Hey, thank you so much Reineling!
Yes, that looks a lot like it.
But I'm really intrigued now how an old Dutch grandmother with dementia in
the US is able to remember children's songs in both Frisian and German
dialect. I'll ask her grandson about that...

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Moin, Ingmar!

You asked about another song and thought it might be in Low Saxon:

>> /bEtS@ batS@"beit@
>>  Indi ouvI"Steit@   (this part sounds German)
>>  "vIksti si
>>  "vIksti su
>>  kamdi kEtsl@"ale su
>>  a"deima ma
>>  a"deipa pa
>>  "hupsa lisa hupsa sa/
>
> Ingmar:
>
> betsje batsje beete
> in de oven steet e
> wiksti si
> wiksti su
> kam de ketsle (?) alleen su
> an de mama
> an de papa
> hupsa, Lisa, hupsasa
>
> the first is a nonsense rhyme sentence
> then: in the oven he stands
> nonsentence ??     it won't be XTC ;-)
> nonsentence ??
> came the kettle all so
> to the mama
> to the papa
> whoops, Lisa, come on

This is more likely to be a German variety, and it's about kittens
(*Kätzle*).
("ale should be *alle* 'all', not *alleen* 'alone')

Might it be an German American variety? Pennsylvania German?

Talking about such, there is a website dedicated to English and "German"
varieties of the United States. (Native American ones will be added.)

http://csumc.wisc.edu/AmericanLanguages/

There are recordings with English translations.

Under "German Dialects" there are four Low Saxon varieties:

Ostfälisch (Eastphalian)
Holsteinisch
Pommersch (Pomeranian)
Oderbrüchisch (mixed with German)

OK, Ingster, I think I'm getting warm regarding your song request. There is
a children's song of Untersteinbach, Upper Palatinate (*Oberpfalz*),
Bavaria, near the Czech border, recorded in 1910 (
http://www.heinlenews.de/geschl10a.htm):

Bitsche, batsche, Peter
hinterm Ofe stehtr,
hol a schleckigs Hütle uf,
klopft mit'm Prüchele allweil druf.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
A floppy hat upon his head,
Keeps hitting it with a cudgel.

Apparently there are several variants of this song, probably from several
places; e.g. with a cat:

Bitsche, batsche Peter
hinterm Ofen steht er,
Flickt sein Schuh und schmiert sein Schuh.
Kommt die alte Katz dazu,
Frisst die Schmeer und frisst die Schuh,
Frisst die Schuh und frisst die Schmeer,
frisst mir alle Teller leer.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
Mending his shoe(s) and greasing his shoe(s),
And the old cat walks up to him,
Eats the grease and eats the shoe(s),
Eats the shoe(s) and eats grease,
Eats and cleans up all my plates.

Another one with a cat:

Pitsche, patsche Peter,
hinterm Ofen steht er,
putzt die Stiefel, putzt die Schuh,
kommt die schwarze Katz' dazu,
frisst den Peter samt die Schuh'.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
Brushing boots, brushing shoes.
The black cat walks up to him,
Eats our Peter shoes and all.

An adult has a small child on their lap facing them. They clap their hands
and the adult lifts and lowers their knees in the rhythm of the song. When
it comes to the eating part, the adult makes the child fall backward.

Usually without the clapping, we used to sing another song, and the action
is called "Hoppe Reiter machen", "to play gee-gees" in English:

Hoppe, hoppe, Reiter!
Wenn er fällt, dann schreit er.
Fällt er in den Grapen,
fressen ihn die Raben.
Fällt er in dem Sumpf,
(dann) macht der Reiter plumps.

 My translation:
Bouncy, bouncy rider!
If he fell he'd scream.
If he fell into the ditch
The ravens would devour him.
If he fell into the swamp
The rider 'd go down with a thud.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

"Reineling"?! That's a new and very funny-sounding one. It sounds a bit like
a type of mushroom to me, in this case probably a hallucinogenic type.

Ingmar, I heard about German women going to work in the Netherlands in the
19th and early 20th centuries, mostly as maids, nannies and such. So they
could have passed on such songs then.

Dementia often comes with retrieval of early childhood memories.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:59:34 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:59:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.08 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.105934.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (07) [E]

I have been out of town for a week or so and am just now going through my
emails in reverse chronological order, so if someone has already contributed
this tidbit, please forgive.

Considering the Lowlandic / Germanic construction:
1.      Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is dat?)
German: Was für ein Hund ist das?

We also have here one of the clearest cases where there was Germanic
syntactic borrowing into Russian (and other North Slavic languages ... and
Bulgarian, which at times acts as an hono(u)rary Russian):

E.g.
 *Что за собака* в наше время без блох? (lifted from a quick google search)
What for (a) dog in our time without fleas?

 Interesting here is also that the object of the preposition; where we
should expect an accusative, it is instead in the nominative (something that
prepositional objects are NEVER supposed to do!) ... leading me to believe
that maybe they borrowed the syntax, and then couldn't make heads nor tails
of what to do with the morphology! (or maybe that TOO is borrowed?)


PS If you are in a country with relatively reliable railtransport, count
your lucky stars; Ishara just had an international Deaf camp in the hills up
north of Delhi (outside of Dehradun, a bea-UT-iful place, if you know it),
and everybody who attended but myself and the one Deaf trustee came back by
train. Up to Delhi it was no problem; unfortunately practically all the
trains from Delhi down to Bombay go through Rajasthan (and for the group of
11 or so from Gujarat it is the same story i imagine), and this past 10 days
has been a somewhat violent bandh (protest-cum-transport-stoppage) by the
Gujjars, an ethnic group concentrated mostly in Rajasthan, who are trying to
get Scheduled Caste (SC) status ... something similar to American
affirmative action, but more so (X% of government jobs, Y% of university
seats, etc reserved for members of the caste), and so almost all my staff
had their trains cancelled out from under them. Somehow though they all made
it back (standing-room only for the 26 hr trip is the commonest story I
"heard") ... and on time to start work today ... with smiles on their faces
... something *I* may not have been able to manage had it been me!

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 18:23:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:23:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Translation" 2008.06.08 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.112337.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (02) [E]

Just an aside (as I have been brushing up my Pali)
Mel Vassey has as closing quote the following verse from *Yammakavagga verse
5 *ta the beginning of the *Dhammapada:*
**

> "For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love -
> this is the eternal law."  - Buddha
>

Which I believe is Max Mueller's classic translation. The Pali "original"
(who knows WHAT the Budha actually said, but anyway) is:

*na hi verena verâni, sammantîdha kudâcanaɱ |
averena ca sammanti, esa dhammo sanantano ||*

Although I BASICALLY have no argument with the SENTIMENT of the translation,
it is a litle too ... Christian? with a little too little Buddhist
dialectic?

*na hi verena verâni* is clearly "not indeed by hatred are hatreds
(plural!)...". However, *averena* in the next half-verse is NOT "by love",
it is "by the lack (*a-*) of *verena*" ... a lack of hatred / enmity /
quarrel. This is more in keeping with the Buddhist goal of non-attachment
(non-attachment to EITHER "bad" OR "good" emotions). "Love" would be okay,
IF you could come up with a good "English" (Latin/Greek) word that is less
"active". The closest *I* can come up with a positive/negative pair in the
same semantic ballpark is pathos/apathy ... but my attempts to work THOSe
into a translation, i am afraid, skated the thin ice of heresy! (Okay, as a
Buddhist, I KNOW we do not generally believe in burning heretics at the
stake, but ... well I will just play it safe and leave it at that!)

PS My Greek is pitifully poor for an ex-Indo-europeanist, but is there a
"gape" to go with "agape"? Maybe THAT might do the trick... or not.

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Translation

Mike,

You wrote:

*verena*" ... a lack of hatred / enmity / quarrel. This is more in keeping
with the Buddhist goal of non-attachment (non-attachment to EITHER "bad" OR
"good" emotions). "Love" would be okay, IF you could come up with a good
"English" (Latin/Greek) word that is less "active". The closest *I* can come
up with a positive/negative pair in the same semantic ballpark is
pathos/apathy ...

How about "(kind-hearted) acceptance" or "(compassionate) tolerance"?

Translating "Eastern" philosophical texts into European languages comes with
many such hurdles, including the case of English, which is relatively
flexible and offers a wealth of lexical possibilities.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 18:25:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:25:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.08 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.112521.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.04 (05) [E]

Mark wrote:

  On the other hand, Indo-Germanic for example can by its terminological
> features be (persuasively) traced back to a specific geographic origin
>

If that were true then a LARGE section of the Indo-Europeanist scholarly
community would have nothing to write books about ... YES, there ARE
persuasive arguments for specific geographic originS ... and equally
persuasive arguments for otherS. Hereabouts (India), I don't hesitate to say
that the average Indo-Europeanist says you all came from HERE rather than
vice versa; in Russia quite a different Homeland wins the day. (Of course
the persuasive arguments on BOTH sides are NOT untinged by a bit of
nationalism, but that does NOt make them any the less persuasive).

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 20:57:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:57:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.08 (08) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.135759.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [A]

Haai julle,

Theo,

Dit is bekend dat ou doringboomspesies baie lank vat om uit te brand, en
dalk suggereer die
"swart-doringhout" dat 'n meer weerbarstige kool gaan vorm, wat ure se hitte
en lig aan 'n vryer
kan verskaf. Sekere akasiaspesies se stamme word swart hoe ouer die bome
word.

'n Ander moontlikheid: Marais het vir lang tye in die Ooste gereis (volgens
JC Kannemeyer –Geskiedenis van die Afrikaanse Literatuur), en my eerste
gedagte was dat kohl (waarmee oë omlyn word), gemaak word deur hout

wat swart as agterlaat, 'n beter keuse sou wees om 'n goeie kwaliteit kohl
mee te maak. Haar belangstelling om vryers te wil lok, is dus daarmee heen.

Ek sluit die gedig onder in.

Elsie

*Die Towenares – Eugene Marais*

Wat word van die meisie wat altyd alleen bly?

Sy wag nie meer vir die kom van die jagters nie;

sy maak nie meer die vuur van swart-doringhout nie.

Die wind waai verby haar ore;

sy hoor nie meer die danslied nie;

die stem van die storie-verteller is dood.

G'neen roep haar van ver nie

om mooi woorde te praat.

Sy hoor net die stem van die wind alleen,

en die wind treur altyd

omdat hy alleen is.

-----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.08 (03) [A]

> From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [D]
>
> Haai almal,
>
> Theo, sê tog asb uit watter gedig dit kom sodat ek die
> woord binne konteks
> kan bekyk?
> Is dit deur Eugene Marais?

Jawel, Elsie,

en wel uit: towenares

[Ach, ach, ik geef het maar toe: uit een aantal Afrikaanse liefdesgedigte;
hebben ze daar ook.]

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Translation" 2008.06.08 (06) [E]

R/R,

Yes, I entirely agree that the sense proposed of "(kind-hearted) acceptance"
or "(compassionate) tolerance" instead of the inelegant "a lack of hatred /
enmity / quarrel" for *averena* is "true" i was just trying to get to the
dialectic that pervades Buddhist teachings ... as manifest in the negative
prefix *a-.*

> Translating "Eastern" philosophical texts into European languages comes
with many such hurdles,
> including the case of English, which is relatively flexible and offers a
wealth of lexical possibilities.
 But then too translating even (sic!) Hegel or Heideger into English can
also demand a greater gift of flexibility than most of us non-yogis possess!
(One could of course argue that post Max-Muellerian European philosophy was
"Eastern" perhaps ...)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Lexicon

Mike,

"Dispassion"?

"Eastern" = "newly introduced"

This is why people tend to use loanwords for convenience.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 21:00:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 14:00:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.08 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.140012.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]

In message <57c981290806071503j7ee6d4c3yc51b9b6ed4f24935 at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> i.e. Fred van Brederode writes

> In the beginning of this year I announced on our LL list the trip I was
> going to make a trip to San Francisco. I have been back for ages again, but
> looking at the pictures I remember a large building in the city center
> flying a Dutch (Netherlands) flag: the horizontal tricolor of red, white and
> blue bands. It was not the Dutch consulate or something and I remember
> having seen this on the east coast (at least in New England) on a rather
> large scale. Especially antique shops there fly the tricolor flag. Sometimes
> they have the word "open" printed in the middle (white) band.
>
> The legend says that Dutch was only this close to becoming the official
> language of the US. We are quite convinced these days that this truly is a
> legend, but the flying tricolors on the other hand are really there. Could
> it be true that the independent US always regretted the British took over
> and longed back for the Peter Stuijvesandt era with the good old red, white
> and blue bands. Will this explain their flagging behaviour? Or would there
> be some other explanation?
>

Interesting .... my first question would be 'does this flag really refer to
the Netherlands, or is it co-incidental, or is there a link but not one that
the flag-fliers would necessarily be aware of?  This page:
http://www.americanflagshoppe.com/flagstore/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=12suggests
there is no Netherlands reference.  'Red white and blue' may seem
the 'natural' flag colours in the US because they are on the US flag.
 Americans don't seem to think it has anything to do with the Netherlands:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/733717

On the other hand, I do think that 'becoming American' was seen by many of
the descendents of people who settled in the 'Dutch' colonies was viewed as
a positive change from being/becoming a 'British colonial'. In part that was
because even at the point where the British took over, even Manhattan was
not Holland-in-America: for one thing the diversity national and ethnic
backgrounds of people here was remarkable: 'being Dutch' was also an issue.

Can I recomend 'Holland Mania' by Annette Stott?  This charts the re-use of
Dutch icons in the United States

Cheers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 22:07:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 15:07:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.08 (10) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.150726.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: Language Varieties

I've copied a part of a discussion at the Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia, about
a mean orthography for Low Saxon in the Netherlands and in Germany. The
name I use there is "Chamavian" - because I was born in Hamaland, in Latin
Chamavia, named after the ancient Germanic tribe of the Chamavii. Btw that
was a Frankish, not a Saxon tribe, however the dialect spoken there
nowadays is considered to be typicaly Low Saxon. Dutch, the Standard
language of Hamaland, as a part of the Netherlands, is Low Franconian.

Anyway, I concluded here that there is not such a thing as one Low Saxon
language, and that Low Saxon from the Netherlands and LS from Germany can
actually be seen as two different languages. Just like Swedish and Danish
or Norwegian are closely related, but different, independent languages.
Or Castillian (Spanish), Portuguese, Catalan, Galician, Asturian, Leonese,
Valencian are all closely related Iberian but seperate languages.

Actually, Swedish and Norwegian, or Norwegian and Danish are much closer
to eachother then NL Low Saxon and DL Low Saxon generally are.
So are most Iberian languages. So are Bulgarian and Macedonian, or
Serbian, Croatian and Bosniak, or Czech and Slovak.

If even Dutch and Afrikaans are considered to be different languages, how
can we maintain that Low Saxon is one language?

Therefor I think it is better to speak of the Low Saxon languageS (plural).
Only in the Netherlands there may already be three linguistically
different Low Saxon languages: a Northern one, a South Western and a South
Eastern one.

I know this will not be a popular point of view to some of us here, but
that's how I think about it right now

Ingmar

Wee'j, deur al die discussies oaver de mandielige spelling veur
Nedersaksisch in Nederlaand en Duutslaand is mij ien ding dudelik eworden:
eigenlik bint 't gewoon verschillende talen. Misschien vrogger niet, mar
nou deur de lange en hèvige invlod van de Standaordtalen wel. Nederduuts
is gien Nedersaksisch en aansumme. Okee, 't Achterhoeks van mien
geboorteplaats Wenters(wiek) lek barre veule op 't Westmönsterlaands van
de Duutse naoberplasen Vraene (Vreden) en Bokelt (Bocholt) en dat zal
langes aandere greinzen ok wel iens zo weden, mar oaver 't algemien
bint 't toch vrömde talen veur mekare. Binnen 't NL Nedersaksisch bint de
verschillen al zo groot, lat staon oaver de greinzen. Mu'w daor nog mit
perberen een ienheid te worden? Ik wete, 't is vluken in de karke, mar zo
zie'k 't wel nou Chamavian 18:44, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)

Daor he-j gelieke an, ik ware van de weke doonde um een artikel te
vertalen uut 't Platduuts mar dat was m'n een uutzeukerieje, eers 't
Platduutse woord ummezetten naor 't Duuts, dan 't Duutse woord opzeuken
dat geet allemaole neet zo vlogge, dan mu-j nog ees de grammatica anpassen
zodat 't een bietjen te begriepen is... man-man wat een gedo, krek twee
amparte talen! Sεrvιεи | Overleg » 19:25, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)
Wat wi-j mit een taal die hum uutstrekt töt an Denemarken en wel-wet-waor
in Oost-Duutslaand. De dialecten körtan Nederlaand liekt nog altied meer
op oenzende as op die an de varre kaante. Veural dus aj oaver 't skienbare
verskil henkiekt det deur de verskillende skriefwiezen kump. Ik hebbe ok
muite mit 't Platduuts, mar viene 't wal barre interessaant. Wi'j hebt
affiniteit mit menare en kunt menare haalfstaon (mit projecten op
Wikipedia ezw.). Det lik mi'j 't belangriekste, daorumme zie ik ok geern
dew in de maande warkt. Ni'jluuseger 20:12, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)

En dat is allennig nog mar op papier... noh ja, of op 't scharm dan. Ik
deinke dat 't verstaon van mekare in levendig lief hielemaole muilik zol
weden. Kiek, wij könt ook allemaole wel aordig wat herkennen in een
Deense, Noorse of Zweedse eschreven tekst, mar van een Skandinavische film
begriepe wij zunder ondertitels krek zo veule as van een Italiaanse of
Spaonse (of weiniger, in mien geval). En Duuts is ook hiel wat makkeliker
te verstaon veur oens as "Platduuts", wees mar eerlik, want Duuts he'w
as 't goed is op schoele had of kenne wij van Derrick en Schimanski ;-)
En 't lek verrekte veul op Nederlaands, natuurlik, die twei talen hebt een
grote onderlinge verstaonbaorheid. Ik deinke dat wij deur oenze kennis
van 't Duuts juust 't Nederduuts beter verstaot as aandersumme.

Wat wi'k nou eigenlik zeggen: misschien mu'w mar gewoon toegeven dat der
meer as ien Nedersaksische taal is, en niet oaver Nedersaksisch dialecten,
mar oaver Nedersaksische talen praoten. Krek a'j Skandinavische talen
hebt, die ook dichtebij mekare staot mar toch verschillend en zölfstaandig
bint. Of de Iberische talen: Spaons (Castiliaans), Catalaans, Galicisch,
Portugees, Leonees, Asturiaans.

As indieling zo'j dan in Nederlaand allennig al drei Nedersaksische talen
hebben:

1) Grunnings en Noord-Dreints (verwant mit Oost-Fries en ook Noordelik
Nederduuts) 2) Zuud-Dreints, Stellingwarfs, Sallaands, Oost-Veluws
(verwant mit Benthems in DL) 3) Twents en Achterhoeks (verwant mit 't
Westmönsterlaandse Westfaals in DL)

En die heufdtalen kunt weer in dialecten en subdialecten onderverdield
worden:

bv bij 2] heufddialecten:

2a Zuud-West-Dreints (Möppelt, Hogeveine etc) 2b Zuud-Oost-Dreints (Emmen,
Koevern etc) 2c Stellingwarfs (Wolvege, Oosterwolde etc) 2d
Stienwiekerlaands (Kop van Oaveriessel) 2e West-Sallaands (Zwolle, Kaampen
etc) 2f Oost-Sallaands (Raolte, Ommen, Nieverdal etc) 2g Oost-Veluws
(Apeldoorne, Heerde etc) 2h Benthems (Emmelkaamp DL etc)

Chamavian 22:30, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

In this case and in analogous cases, going one way or another primarily
requires a type of value judgment depending on your bias. There is no
clear-cut formula, nor is this entirely measurable.

You can either look at the large picture while ignoring details, or you can
forget about the large picture and focus on details and find a plethora of
differences that seem to justify all sorts of divisions. You can also have
orthographic differences weigh in and pretend they are inseparable from
language and are not resolvable.

I put it to you that, if you go this latter way, you ought to be consistent
and chop Low Saxon up even further and call the various parts languages, at
the very least North Saxon, East Frisian, Eastphalian, Northeastern Low
Saxon, Southeastern Low Saxon, and Westphalian on the German side, and
probably more parts > languages on the Netherlands side, for putting for
instance Groningen LS (which I consider part of North Saxon) and Twente LS
(which I consider part of Westphalian) into one pot would mean ignoring
details that elsewhere are not ignored.

Furthermore, division by country is tantamount to playing up respective
national influences to bolster one's argument. The opposite would be to
focus on the broad common base and consider the rather recent alienating
influences relatively insignificant.

In the case of Low Saxon, fragmentation is in actual fact life-threatening,
not only linguistic differences but also as far as attitudes and mindsets
are concerned. Few people are prepared to look beyond their local dialects,
and in this mindset (which I call "myopic") every little difference seems
enormous, even from village to village. For instance, in Eastern Friesland
and Emsland dialects (in Germany) many words and expressions are those that
are used in Netherlands LS and in Dutch. Yet, few people would consider
these dialects belonging to a different language. In Groningen they
say *du*(written
*doe*) for 'thou', as in Germany and unlike other LS dialects in the
Netherlands. Add to this *aai* for *ei* etc., and you can either make the
argument that Groningen dialects belong to North Saxon or, considering Dutch
influences and nationalistic interests as well as difference of orthography,
that they represent yet another language. My point is that you can go two
ways, but that you should then follow through methodically and consistently
rather than stop at the half-assed solution of dividing Low Saxon along a
political boundary, for Dutch vs German influences seem like a weak argument
to me, and artificial things like orthographic issues ought not be brought
into it.

As far as mutual comprehensibility are concerned (aside from orthography,
which is resolvable), there are people that cannot understand the dialect of
a couple of villages down the road, and there are people that have no
serious problem understanding people hundreds of miles away across a
national boundary or two. Most of this has to do with experience and with
attitude, and experience and attitude are not set in stone; they can change.

What you are proposing is in my opinion analogous for instance to Galician
vs. Portuguese. Linguists that do not consider the border between Spain and
Portugal consider the two one language. Differences between the two,
including Castilian influences on Galician, are not very significant.
Differences in spelling convention enhance the illusion of division
visually. And those that *want* the division will play up all of these
relatively insignificant differences.

It is also analogous to the case of Ulster Scots vs. Mainland Scots which
some interest groups in Ulster wish to make official. On the other hand, I
know of no real movement demanding that Shetlandic be officially separate
from Scots, even though arguments for this would seem far more compelling.
But, see, Mainland Scots and Shetlandic are both used in Scotland, while
Ulster Scots is used outside Scotland and many Ulster Protestants wish to be
seen as an indigenous group in its own right, not as a bunch of Scots that
ought to be sent home as has been demanded by certain Catholic groups. So
it's a political thing, and you can not argue that the case of Low Saxon is
devoid of political considerations.

For me personally language survival is the most important thing.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.09 (01) [E]
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: quotations

> From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: ll-l Inspirational words

> I am missing two quotations!  I need something to introduce
> medieval
> building training practices, and I need something better
> than I've got
> already to introduce the typology of wall anchors.

Pat,

No, I can't help you.
Sorry.

But here is a way out, so you can have some piece of mind:

THE BOOK: [I'm capitalizing, because you are dyslectic:)]

Jan en Kasper Luiken
Spiegel van het Menselyk Bedryf
Vertoonende Honderd verscheiden Ambachten
Te Amsterdam By de Erven van F. Houttuyn
MDCCLXVII

THE  PAGE:
69

THE SUBJECT:
De Steensaager = the stone-sawyer

THE TEXT:

De Steensaager

Patsiensi werck, gestaadich aan,
Komd eindling nog wel eens gedaan:
O swaare Steen, van 's leevens tyden!
De Dach en Nacht haald heen en weer,
De Saag des Tyds sinckt staadich neer,
Tot dat sich Ziel en Lichaam scheiden.

THEOLOGICAL COMMENT:
The stone-sawyer splits the stone in two parts.
Time will split soul and body.
---------------------

You see, Pat, so they will understand that you are also anchoring in moral
values.

vr. gr.
Theo

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:26:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JUN.2008.102641.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.08 (04) [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.07 (09) [E]
>
> Hey, thank you so much Reineling!
> Yes, that looks a lot like it.
> But I'm really intrigued now how an old Dutch grandmother with dementia in
> the US is able to remember children's songs in both Frisian and German
> dialect. I'll ask her grandson about that...

Mind you that in some areas in the US and Canada the final triumph of
English over all other non-first generation immigrant languages other
than Spanish and French only occurred in the very recent past. I
remember particularly my father's maternal grandma, who was born here
in southeastern Wisconsin and who was literate in German up until the
point that she died, which was only the early 1980s. Furthermore,
there are limited areas where that point still has not come yet, such
as parts of rural Pennsylvania and Texas (in the case of German
dialects), parts of rural North Dakota and Minnesota (in the case of
Norwegian dialects), and parts of the Chicago and, to a lesser extent,
Milwaukee areas (in the case of Polish). It is quite conceivable that
she may have spoken Dutch to a relatively old age, all things
considered.

Furthermore, in the case of dementia, it is not uncommon for
individuals to forget languages which they learned later in life and
regress to speaking only their native language or only languages
learned at a young age, even if they have not spoken them in decades.
That reminds me of a problem here in Milwaukee, where sometimes older
people with Alzheimers' will forget the English they learned decades
ago and regress to speaking Polish, but no one other than
zeroeth-generation immigrants under the age of 60 or so here speaks
any Polish; hence, there is practically no one who would be able to
take care of them who is able to communicate with them, due to Polish
having never been transmitted on to my parents' generation here.
(However, though, I hear that in the Chicago area Polish is actually
still a living language amongst people around my age (23 years old),
to my amazement; my sister moved down to an apartment down there, and
the people who run the place actually natively speak Polish, despite
being born in the US and being not much older than me myself.)

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language use

Hi, Travis *et al*.!

German Americans still belong to the largest groups in this country, and you
are talking about far more people if we count people of partly German
descent, even if only those that are aware of it and retain some bits of
German linguistic and cultural heritage.

Here in Washington State, for instance, or if we only take the Puget Sound
area of Western Washington, is known for its Scandinavian heritage,
particularly its Norwegian heritage, and there's a long-standing
intermarriage connection with Minnesota. Also, many people here still speak
Scandinavian languages, and other Nordic languages can also still be heard
(including Faroese, Icelandic, Estonian and Finnish). However, a few years
ago I looked at a list of ethnic affiliation based on census data, and the
number for German was far greater than that for Nordic ethnicities combined.
It is only that even those that consider themselves German Americans, just
like those that consider themselves "Dutch" Americans (with fairly high
concentrations in the north of the state), are not very noticeable. Few of
them make a song and dance about it, literally or figuratively. Yet when I
talk to them they tell me what bits of German they learned as children, how
they celebrate Christmas in the German way, the German foods they eat, that
they called their grandparents Oma and Opa, and so forth. Many of them don't
even have German-sounding names because of name changes and so forth. And
among them I know several that are partly African American and/or Native
American. Also, there are those whose elders speak or spoke "Platt".
Similarly, I am told that many of the "Dutch" in the north speak or spoke
Low Saxon or Frisian. It is only that German and Dutch people tended to be
more ready to melt into the general population. Also, they arrived in this
country over a long period of time, while many Scandinavians arrived at
certain lean times in the old country and thus had an easier time seeing
themselves are communities. Furthermore, World War II caused many German
Americans to hide their heritage.

Furthermore, in the case of dementia, it is not uncommon for
individuals to forget languages which they learned later in life and
regress to speaking only their native language or only languages
learned at a young age, even if they have not spoken them in decades.

Quite so. A friend told me that after her stroke the only language his
grandmother could speak was her native Yiddish. Her Ukrainian, Russian and
English were altogether gone.

Some of the "older" Lowlanders will pardon me for relating the following
story again. I had an old professor who in his nineties fell seriously ill.
We took turns watching over him. He was heavily drugged because of pain. I
suppose that drugged state was a sort of dementia. All of a sudden he
started mumbling in Mandarin. His lack of Chinese proficiency had been known
to be *the* handicap in his line of research (Altaic Studies, particularly
Mongolistics). Officially his first language had been Finnish because of his
Finnish mother, and as a child he knew some German because of German
speakers on his father's side of the family. His father was a (Tsarist)
Russian diplomat in Manchuria. When things got really bad politically, he
sent his wife and son "home" to St. Petersburg, but the kid had never been
to Russia before. This is were he learned Russian while still speaking
Finnish with his mother (and during summers in Finland, then a Russian
colony), and German with certain relatives. Later we learned that in
Manchuria he had had a Chinese nanny with whom he spent most of his time and
from whom he learned Mandarin. Mandarin was thus his true first language,
even though he never advanced beyond child level. Later his father had him
visit him back in Manchuria and as a surprise had the nanny visit from
Beijing, but the kid had forgotten practically all his Mandarin by that
time.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (03) [E]
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]

Fred asked: "Will this explain their flagging behaviour? Or would there be
some other explanation?"

I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
flags with open on them are common all over Texas.  I never thought of them
as representing anything other than U.S. colors.  I commonly see those flags
at used car dealerships.  Used car salesmen have a reputation here of being
"less than honest."  Therefore, I doubt that you'd want to claim those flags
as Dutch ;-).
Mark Brooks

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Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:17:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.09 (05) [E]
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.09 (01) [E]

Hi all,

I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
This message ought to go to an other adress.

I must be not compos mentis.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:15:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]

Fred asked: "Is there such a thing as a right pronunciation?. Has anyone
dealt with the "problem" before? What was your solution?"

I for one pronounce it with stress on the first syllable – kílometer.
However, I frequently hear it both ways.  For what it's worth, Spanish
pronounces it with stress on the second syllable – kilómetro.  I traveled in
Europe many years ago, but I doubt that has had any effect on my
pronounciation.

Mark Brooks
----------

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.08 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Thanks and bravo, Travis! This is certainly important to realize in cases
of
> languages such as English, Scots and other languages (such as Russian)
that
> have unpredictable stress assignment and significant vowel reduction in
> "un"-stressed syllable.

The matter is that with Old English, there was effectively limited
fixed phonemic stress, so that most words had stress on the first
syllable of the root (and not just the first syllable). Yet at the
same time, both Early New English and Middle Scots acquired a lot of
very conscious loans from languages with mobile stress (both phonemic
and allophonic), to the point that the stress alternation patterns in
larger words constructed from them were borrowed with them. (There
were a good amount of such loans during the Middle English period, but
they were far more strongly nativized, and hence much more closely
match native English stress patterns.) But the matter is that Anglic
dialects as a whole, both English and Scots, never have been true
mobile stress languages. Hence the system you see in English and Scots
today effectively reflect the shoehorning of loans with mobile stress
into a native system with fixed phonemic stress. As they never had a
true native system of mobile stress, the borrowed mobile stress of
many loanwords came to be associated with said loanwords and words
constructed from them; effectively, it got frozen through the
development of allomorphy of such words' morphemes. Furthermore, due
to internally having fixed phonemic stress, there was a strong
tendency for vowel reduction to become phonemicized, as there would be
a lack of sufficient stress movement to reinforce the unreduced
underlying forms in question. Of course, due to the borrowed mobile
stress of loanwords really being underlying allomorphy, such
phonemicization of unstressed vowels would also have been applied to
each allomorph individually. As a result, many of the allomorphs
reflecting borrowed mobile stress would have been permanently
separated phonologically, as the original unreduced forms that
differed only in primary stress placement would have been rendered
unrecoverable phonologically.

> This is not to say that certain phenomena of vowel reduction do not occur
in
> other languages as well, including those in the Lowlands.
>
> Interestingly, Low Saxon tended to aim for easier management by reducing
to
> zero unstressed syllables in borrowed nouns with final stress; French
> courage [kuˈʀaːʒ] > kraasch' [krɒːʒ] ~ kraasch [krɒːʃ] 'courage', (Latin
> advocatus) > Afkaat [ʔafˈkʰɒːt] 'lawyer', 'barrister', Greek αποθήκη
> apothḗkē > Latin apotheca > Apteek [ʔapˈtʰɛɪk] ~ Afteek [ʔafˈtʰɛɪk] (>
> Kashubian apteka, Polish apteka, Russian аптека apteka, Latvian aptieka,
> Estonian apteek, Finnish apteeki) 'pharmacy'.

The matter one must remember is that Low Saxon underwent general
apocope, which would likely have culled a lot of unstressed vowels in
such words if it also applied word-internally (which I suspect might
be the case). To really tell what happened in the case of Low Saxon
one would have to look at Middle Low Saxon, as that predated the
general apocope which occurred therein. Of course, in the English case
it is clear that the Early New English apocope only occured
morpheme-finally, and furthermore the development of a lot of the
final schwas in New English dialects today reflects extensive vowel
reduction postdating said apocope.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks again, Travis, for these interesting and important bits of
information. The Kahuna (http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) has
begun to pay attention.

Low Saxon apocope is morpheme-final. There are two interesting things about
it:

   1. While it did (or does?) apply in most North Saxon dialects (which are
   the ones that tend to dominate the presence of the language), it did not
   apply in a good number of others, especially in Westphalian and Eastphalian
   ones and North Saxon and Eastern dialects that border them. So you can still
   analyze living varieties that have no apocope.

   2. I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of
   lengthening as a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many younger
   people who rely much on writing, most of which does not indicate it. In
   other words, this feature, along with distinction between diphthongs and
   long monophthongs, is in the process of being lost in great part because of
   poor spelling. Apocope causes lengthening of the preceding syllable, which
   in cases of long monophthongs leads to extra- or super-long monophthongs
   (referred to as *Schleifton* "drawl tone" in German). What's particularly
   interesting here is that final devoicing (which otherwise applies
   consistently) is starved in the case of super-length. In other words, it
   looks as though apocope applies after devoicing. In dialects with
   intervocalic d-deletion, /d/ may then be deleted (which seems to have
   happened in the case of Dutch *luyde* > *lui* 'people'), and in a few
   dialects this happens to /g/ as well. Examples:

   Monophthongs:*
   hase *[ˈhɒːze] ~> *haas'* [hɒːˑz] (not *[hɒːs]) 'hare'
   (*haar* [hɒːɐ] 'hair' >) *hare* [hɒːre] -> *haar'* [hɒːˑɐ] 'hairs'
   *stede* [ˈsteː(d)e] ~> *steed'* [steːˑ(d)] (not *[steːt]) 'stead',
   'place', 'spot'
   *dele* [ˈdeːle] ~> *deel'* [deːˑl] (not *[deːl]) 'floor', 'hallway',
   'stage'
   *luyde* [lyː(d)e] ~> *luyd'* [ˈlyːˑ(d)] (not *[lyːt]) 'people'
   (*bruud* 'bride' [bruːt] >) *bruyde* [ˈbryː(d)e] ~> *bruyd'* [bryːˑ(d)]
   (not *[bryːt]) 'brides'
   (*dag* [dax] 'day' >) *dage* [ˈdɒːɣe] ~> *daag'* [dɒːˑɣ] (not *[dɒːx])
   'days'
   *mage* [ˈmɒːɣe] ~> *maag'* [mɒːˑɣ] (not *[mɒːx]) 'stomach'
   (*weg* [vɛç] 'way' >) *wege* [ˈveːɣe] ~ *weeg'* [veːˑɣ] (not *[veːç])
   'ways'
   (*schaap* [ʃɒːp] 'sheep' >) *schape* [ˈʃɒːpe] ~> *schaap' *[ʃɒːˑp] (not
   *[ʃɒːp]) 'sheep' (pl.)
   *oge* [ʔoːɣe] ~> *oog'* [ʔoːˑɣ] (not [ʔoːx] or [ʔɔʊx]) 'eye'
   (*schip* [ʃɪp] 'ship' >) *schippe* [ˈʃɪpe] ~> *scheep' *[ʃeːˑp] (not
   *[ʃeːp]) 'ships' ([ɪː] > [eː])
   But:
   *stimme* [ˈstɪˑme]* ~> stimm* [stɪˑm] 'voice'
   *lippe* [ˈlɪpe]* ~> lipp* [lɪp] 'lip'
   *valle* [ˈfaˑle]* ~> **vall* [ˈfaˑł] 'trap'
   (*pot* [pʰɔt] 'pot' >) *pötte* [ˈpʰœte] ~> *pöt* [pʰœt] 'pots'

   Diphthongs:
   (*leyge* [ˈlɛˑɪʝe] ~ [ˈlaˑɪʝe] >) *leyg'* [lɛːɪʝ] ~ [laːɪʝ] ('low' >)
   'bad'
      (usually written *leeg* and mispronounced as [lɛɪç])
   (*droyge* [ˈdrœˑɪʝe] ~ [ˈdrɔˑɪʝe] >) *droyg'* [drœːɪʝ] ~ [drɔːɪʝ] 'dry'
      (usually written *dr**ö**ö**g* and mispronounced as [drœɪç] ~ [drɔɪç])
   *louge *[ˈlɔˑʊɣe] ~ [ˈlaˑʊɣe] > *loug' *[ˈlɔːʊɣ] ~ [ˈlaːʊɣ] 'lye',
   'leach', 'solution'
      (usually written *Loog* and mispronounced as [loːx] ~ [lɔʊx])

Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;
e.g. *Dat huus is groot *[groːt]* un hoog* [hoːx] 'The house/building is big
and tall', *dat grote *[groːte]*, hoge *[ˈhoːɣe]* huus* 'the big, tall
house/building'.

Thanks for thinking about this!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  9 23:01:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:01:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JUN.2008.160125.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

>
>   1. I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of
>      lengthening as a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many
>      younger people who rely much on writing, most of which does not
>      indicate it. In other words, this feature, along with
>      distinction between diphthongs and long monophthongs, is in the
>      process of being lost in great part because of poor spelling.
>
>  Younger people relying too much on writing... Hm, this can only be aimed
against Wikipedia and the other online Low Saxon activities ;-) cause, I
don't think, that there are many young people relying on writing other than
those writing themselves. I don't think there are many young people who are
eager Low Saxon readers. At least not to that extent, that writing could
influence the language. Okay, perhaps people who try to learn the language
without any previous knowledge. But learning a language from scratch won't
work with any language. So, I say: Don't blame the spelling. The blame has
to go to the bad language transmission. Well, it too is unfair to blame the
older generation for not transmitting the language to their children, cause
I think, that they did, but we have to blame the whole society for creating
an atmosphere in which the younger weren't encouraged to imbibe the language
offered by the older generation.
This loss of language "subtleties" is a symptom of general language loss and
certainly not a symptom of suboptimal spelling.

> Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;
> e.g. /Dat huus is groot /[groːt]/ un hoog/ [hoːx] 'The house/building is big
> and tall', /dat grote /[groːte]/, hoge /[ˈhoːɣe]/ huus/ 'the big, tall
> house/building'.
>
>  Depends. East Frisian does have apocope for grammatical markers. I cite
from <http://www.bis.uni-oldenburg.de/bisverlag/hv1/9a2-fort.pdf>:

/Auf Borkum und bei den älteren Emdern sind die alten Adjektivendungen - im
Gegensatz
zu den übrigen ostfriesischen Mundarten - teilweise erhalten. Man sagt de
grote
Kaap statt de grood' (d' bezeichnet das stimmhafte d im Auslaut vor
apokopiertem e)
Kaap; mien olde Mauder statt mien oael Mauder; dat braide Pad statt dat
braaid Pad;
de baide grote Klaasooms statt de baaid groot Klaasooms; en junge Fent; wie
binnen de
Groten, de Dummen, de Klauken, usw.

/Marcus Buck/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Marcus, you responded:

Younger people relying too much on writing... Hm, this can only be aimed
against Wikipedia and the other online Low Saxon activities ;-)

Why?! "Only"?! I grant you that the Wikipedia activities are pretty darn
important and impressive, and I really mean it and, as you know, support
them. But they aren't the center of my universe or the be-all of "Platt",
nor are the participants the only ones (young or old) that ignore
"subtleties" that I consider as subtle as distinguishing English "bear" and
"beer", "bed" and "bet", or "loan" and "lawn," for example.

I hear many people speak, both competent and learning speakers, and I read
lots of people's written works. This goes far beyond the Wikipedia.

To competent speakers differences such as between [ˈbeːdn̥] ~ [ˈbɛːdn̥] 'to
pray', 'to request' and [ˈbɛˑɪdn̥] ~ [ˈbaˑɪdn̥] 'to offer' are as important
as is the difference between their German cognates *beten* and *bieten*.
When such speakers write to or for each other and omit the written
distinction they still make the difference when speaking. Omitting the
differences in reference material is an entirely different story.  In my
eyes it's the same as ignoring diacritic marks when writing Romance, Celtic
or Slavic languages -- not excusable. And yes, you guys ignoring such
"subtleties" is a gripe of mine, but it is only a part of a larger gripe,
and it doesn't mean that I poo-poo the overall effort you put forth with the
Wikipedia project.

Again, most competent native and near-native speakers still do make these
differences and better reference books do indicate them, at least the
difference between monophthongs and diphthongs. (Yes, even the much
poo-pooed New Sass!) So not only is there no excuse for ignoring them when
you are non-native speakers who should consider themselves learners, but as
writers and compilers of reference material ignoring these still existing
"subtleties" you miss an important opportunity and obligation. (If you
ignore the differences in your private writing is a different matter.)
Remember that many learners will take you at your word because you are
setting yourselves up as educators. And all you have to do is look up
questionable words and/or have them checked by people that do know the
differences. Dismissing them as old-fashioned, inconsequential subtleties,
as though they were dead and gone, and letting only non-native speakers
determine what is to be treated as a symptom of language loss is a cop-out
for the sake of convenience, a way of covering one's behind for
can't-be-bothered laziness. More importantly, it amounts to complicity in
linguistic deterioration. Reference material should present a living
language optimally, even if this requires additional work. Look for instance
at the Russian Wikipedia in which head words and phrases as well as foreign
names come with stress indication as well as with distinction between *е*and
* ё* even though this is never done in ordinary Russian texts, only in
textbooks for non-native speakers. If they can go that extra half mile, what
excuse is there in the case of a language in which a sizable number of
speakers and writers still do make the difference?

Yes, it is a gripe of mine, and tongue lashings will ensue when provoked.
(This is mostly because I think it is such a shame.) But it is by no means
directed only at the WikiPlatt team, for out there are plenty of textbooks
and dictionaries that are guilty of the same neglect. And yet again, apart
from this one (not insignificant) point I applaud you for your initiative,
effort and perseverance. And, Marcus, by now you ought to know that I am
also fully appreciative of the various things you do, not only as a member
of that team, and your willingness not to let disagreements kill
relationships.

Thanks for the note about the Emsland varieties! (You'd better not call them
"East Frisian"! I understand the old rivalry between the two areas is not
dead and gone.)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  9 23:17:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:17:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JUN.2008.161742.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (03) [E]

On 10/06/2008, at 3:28 AM, Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us> wrote:

Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]

I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
flags with open on them are common all over Texas.

Such red white and blueopen  flags used to be common in Britain as well.
Craziest use of the colours has to be at the time of Liz's coronation when a
Scottish butcher sold strings of
re white and blue sausages. Honestly !

Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane Australia

Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us

Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us

Robert Burns

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 14:13:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:13:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.10 (01) [E]
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]
>>
>> I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
>> flags with open on them are common all over Texas.
>>
>

A lot can be said about the significance of colors, which is partly rooted
in history, sometimes scientifically verifiable and once in a while plain
humbug. I happen to know for instance, that many (if not most) corporations
know very well which colors sell best in which countries. Yes, some cars
just can't be sold in country A if they're painted in color B (thinking of
mustard green cars which sell pretty well in France and Spain, but are
almost taboo in Belgium), male shoes that are almost always black in
Germany, certain brown suits that are hugely popular in Italy and nowhere
else etc. No doubt this has something to do with the amount and type of
light in each country (which can be very different), the colors of the
environment and simply how people look like.

Regarding the Dutch flag, I think it fits the country, especially the blue
and to a lesser degree the red band. There's a few hues of blue that one
gets to see very often in the Netherlands. Why? Maybe 'cause it matches
orange real well (color of Dutch royalty)...maybe because it goes well with
blond hair and blue eyes? Or does it stand for liberalism? Anyway, it's a
"cool" and "open" flag, the colors look fresh and clean...just like the
Dutch  are :-D . No sheer coincidence if you're asking me.

Same can be said about the Belgian (and German) flag: black, red and yellow.
Dark/closed (black) but yet warm (red) at the same time: strong contrast;
out of darkness, life is created.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 14:15:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:15:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.10 (02) [E]
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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.09 (02) [E]

One important note is that there are significantly differing degrees
of assimilation with respect to ethnic Germans in the US. On one
extreme there are cases like Pennsylvania and Texas Germans, who are
relatively unassimilated all things considered. On the other extreme
there is probably the vast majority of ethnic Germans in the US, who
are practically completely assimilated for whom the only signs of
being ethnically German are their last names. In the middle you have
cases like much of Wisconsin, where the population is largely
assimilated, where the only signs of the language(s) they spoke before
English are substratum features in their English, but where there is
still the retention of a distinct identity rather than being
completely assimilated into Anglo-American society.

Here at least, though, said identity is no longer really a
specifically ethnic identity as it was for past generations but rather
a regional identity. Younger people here are not Germans, Poles,
Norwegians, Irish, Italians, or like anymore; rather they are
Wisconsinites. Yet at the same time, there is a consciousness of
Wisconsin being a distinct society within North America, with its own
history and origins separate from general Anglo-American society. And
while personal ethnicity has been significantly downplayed amongst the
younger parts of the population, there is still an awareness of where
people here in general came from and of outside cultural influences at
a societal level here. Probably the best analogy I can think of such
is that, culturally, Wisconsinites today are to Germans what
Afrikaners are to the Dutch; Afrikaners themselves are quite
culturally distinct from the Dutch, and are of varied ethnic origins
which are not exclusively Dutch at all, yet at the same time
culturally the Dutch still had a distinct influence upon them as a
whole. Likewise, the culture here is very distinct from German
culture, and the population here today is of rather mixed origin
(despite having a large ethnic German element), yet at the same time
German culture has had a special position with regard to overall
outside influence on the culture here.

As for speaking a range of different dialects, at least here that was
a major part of the downfall of German here. The matter is that the
people who immigrated here, even if they all spoke "German", often
spoke such a range of different dialects that it turned out that it
was often more convenient for them to speak English with each other
than their own dialects. Of course, it is a short step from there to
simply speaking English all the time, which greatly contributed to the
overall speed of the loss of German here despite the great size of the
overall ethnic German population here.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 14:58:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:58:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.10 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.075807.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Thanks again, Travis, for these interesting and important bits of
> information. The Kahuna (http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) has
> begun to pay attention.
>
> Low Saxon apocope is morpheme-final. There are two interesting things
about
> it:
>
> While it did (or does?) apply in most North Saxon dialects (which are the
> ones that tend to dominate the presence of the language), it did not apply
> in a good number of others, especially in Westphalian and Eastphalian ones
> and North Saxon and Eastern dialects that border them. So you can still
> analyze living varieties that have no apocope.
>
> I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of lengthening
as
> a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many younger people who rely
> much on writing, most of which does not indicate it. In other words, this
> feature, along with distinction between diphthongs and long monophthongs,
is
> in the process of being lost in great part because of poor spelling.
Apocope
> causes lengthening of the preceding syllable, which in cases of long
> monophthongs leads to extra- or super-long monophthongs (referred to as
> Schleifton "drawl tone" in German). What's particularly interesting here
is
> that final devoicing (which otherwise applies consistently) is starved in
> the case of super-length. In other words, it looks as though apocope
applies
> after devoicing. In dialects with intervocalic d-deletion, /d/ may then be
> deleted (which seems to have happened in the case of Dutch luyde > lui
> 'people'), and in a few dialects this happens to /g/ as well. Examples:
>
> Monophthongs:
> hase [ˈhɒːze] ~> haas' [hɒːˑz] (not *[hɒːs]) 'hare'
> (haar [hɒːɐ] 'hair' >) hare [hɒːre] -> haar' [hɒːˑɐ] 'hairs'
> stede [ˈsteː(d)e] ~> steed' [steːˑ(d)] (not *[steːt]) 'stead', 'place',
> 'spot'
> dele [ˈdeːle] ~> deel' [deːˑl] (not *[deːl]) 'floor', 'hallway', 'stage'
> luyde [lyː(d)e] ~> luyd' [ˈlyːˑ(d)] (not *[lyːt]) 'people'
> (bruud 'bride' [bruːt] >) bruyde [ˈbryː(d)e] ~> bruyd' [bryːˑ(d)] (not
> *[bryːt]) 'brides'
> (dag [dax] 'day' >) dage [ˈdɒːɣe] ~> daag' [dɒːˑɣ] (not *[dɒːx]) 'days'
> mage [ˈmɒːɣe] ~> maag' [mɒːˑɣ] (not *[mɒːx]) 'stomach'
> (weg [vɛç] 'way' >) wege [ˈveːɣe] ~ weeg' [veːˑɣ] (not *[veːç]) 'ways'
> (schaap [ʃɒːp] 'sheep' >) schape [ˈʃɒːpe] ~> schaap' [ʃɒːˑp] (not *[ʃɒːp])
> 'sheep' (pl.)
> oge [ʔoːɣe] ~> oog' [ʔoːˑɣ] (not [ʔoːx] or [ʔɔʊx]) 'eye'
> (schip [ʃɪp] 'ship' >) schippe [ˈʃɪpe] ~> scheep' [ʃeːˑp] (not *[ʃeːp])
> 'ships' ([ɪː] > [eː])
> But:
> stimme [ˈstɪˑme] ~> stimm [stɪˑm] 'voice'
> lippe [ˈlɪpe] ~> lipp [lɪp] 'lip'
> valle [ˈfaˑle] ~> vall [ˈfaˑł] 'trap'
> (pot [pʰɔt] 'pot' >) pötte [ˈpʰœte] ~> pöt [pʰœt] 'pots'
>
> Diphthongs:
> (leyge [ˈlɛˑɪʝe] ~ [ˈlaˑɪʝe] >) leyg' [lɛːɪʝ] ~ [laːɪʝ] ('low' >) 'bad'
>    (usually written leeg and mispronounced as [lɛɪç])
> (droyge [ˈdrœˑɪʝe] ~ [ˈdrɔˑɪʝe] >) droyg' [drœːɪʝ] ~ [drɔːɪʝ] 'dry'
>    (usually written dröög and mispronounced as [drœɪç] ~ [drɔɪç])
> louge [ˈlɔˑʊɣe] ~ [ˈlaˑʊɣe] > loug' [ˈlɔːʊɣ] ~ [ˈlaːʊɣ] 'lye', 'leach',
> 'solution'
>    (usually written Loog and mispronounced as [loːx] ~ [lɔʊx])
>
> Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;
> e.g. Dat huus is groot [groːt] un hoog [hoːx] 'The house/building is big
and
> tall', dat grote [groːte], hoge [ˈhoːɣe] huus 'the big, tall
> house/building'.

As for this, I cannot really speak for certain, particularly because I
do not know all the circumstances of Northern Low Saxon apocope, but I
would probably approach it from the following point of view:

If said apocope is still productive, then it is easy to analyze. In
that case I suspect it would reflect an underlyingly retained /e/ in
word-final positions, as the elision thereof would result in
compensatory lengthening while shielding in the final consonant and
reinforcing its voicing (through it phonemically falling
intervocalically, where voicing influences tend to be very strong
crosslinguistically).

If said apocope is no longer productive, then things are a bit
trickier. In that event one would likely have to have phonemic
overlong vowels in the final syllables of morphemes or have some kind
of special null vowel phoneme following such syllables, and in the
former case either some ad hoc rule where overlong vowels prevent
devoicing of consonants in their codas or treat practically all words
except for words so affected as having final devoicing underlyingly
being allomorphy. As for such allomorphy, the problem would then be
that it would be the rule and not the exception, contrary to how
allomorphy generally works, even though one could treat it in terms of
such being the default behavior of words in general.

Of course, the largest clue to such is how loans from languages
allowing words with word-final schwas and or voiced consonants are
handled. If loans originally ending in schwas undergo apocope, then
such is still productive and thus the first case applies. If loans
originally ending in voiced consonants do not undergo final devoicing,
then the case of having final devoicing implemented through allomorphy
applies. If neither apply, though, it would require further analysis
to determine whether such reflects final null vowel phoneme of some
sort, as ad hoc as that really seems or having a phonemic overlong
vowel whose presence synchronically suppresses final devoicing of its
syllable's coda.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot for that, Travis (also for the piece about Wisconsin identity).

Your take on Low Saxon apocope happens to be the same as mine.

Lately I am inclined to see Low Saxon apocope as still productive, resulting
in overlength as a matter of compensatory lengthening, at least in some
dialects. However, I also think that apocope is no longer productive in a
number of dialects and idiolects and that it is these that have dropped
compensatory lengthening.

The reason why I think apocope is still productive at least in some dialects
is precisely the one you mentioned: treatment of loanwords.

For example, these days people say and write *leertast* (*L**ę**ęrtast*)
[ˈleːɝtast] 'space bar' (< German *Leertaste*), *buyn'* (*Bühn*) [byː(ˑ)n]
(< German *Bühne*) for '(theater) stage' (instead of native *speeldeel* (*
Spęęldęęl*)), and *juud'* (*Juud'*) [ɟuː(ˑ)(d)] for 'Jew' (< German *Jude*)
replacing native *joyd'* (*Jööd'*)). However, there are others that say and
write *leertaste* (*L**ę**ęrtaste*), *buyne* (*Bühne*) and *jude* (*Jude*)
respectively.

However, most speakers that apply compensatory lengthening do not know that
they are doing so, and they would not be able to explain it even if they
did. It thus goes by most adult learners, and it does not help that it is
not (consistently) indicated orthographically and so far has not been
described and taught in textbooks for ordinary folk. So, while by no means
dead and gone, it is going down the tubes because of inattention.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 15:02:34 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:02:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.10 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.080234.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (07) [E]

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (03) [E]

 On 10/06/2008, at 3:28 AM, Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
 wrote:

Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]
I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
flags with open on them are common all over Texas.

Such red white and blueopen  flags used to be common in Britain as well.
Craziest use of the colours has to be at the time of Liz's coronation when a
Scottish butcher sold strings of
re white and blue sausages. Honestly !

Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns


Also worth remembering that at the time of Dutch colonisation of N. America,
their flag was orange, white and blue, not red, white and blue. They
switched to red sometime toward the end of the 18th C. because with the dyes
of the time, red was more visible at sea than orange.  Watching Holland
trounce Italy 3-0 in the opening Euro 2008 match last night brings home how
much the old colour still resonates!

Paul

----------

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (07) [E]

>From wim verdoold

wkv at home.nl
Zwolle city
Netherlands

Hi!

Here is the wikipedia website about the flag of the Netherlands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Netherlands
it 's a long story so I won't copy it.

As a kid I was also told  the red stands for the blood spilled in 80  years
war of liberation against spain,.
The white for the tears, and the blue for the sea we fought on.

I hope this was any help..

Hartelijke groeten,

wim

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 18:17:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:17:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.10 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.111740.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [A]

Haai julle,

Theo,

Dit is bekend dat ou doringboomspesies baie lank vat om uit te brand, en
dalk suggereer die
"swart-doringhout" dat 'n meer weerbarstige kool gaan vorm, wat ure se hitte
en lig aan 'n vryer
kan verskaf. Sekere akasiaspesies se stamme word swart hoe ouer die bome
word.

'n Ander moontlikheid: Marais het vir lang tye in die Ooste gereis (volgens
JC Kannemeyer –Geskiedenis van die Afrikaanse Literatuur), en my eerste
gedagte was dat kohl (waarmee oë omlyn word), gemaak word deur hout

wat swart as agterlaat, 'n beter keuse sou wees om 'n goeie kwaliteit kohl
mee te maak. Haar belangstelling om vryers te wil lok, is dus daarmee heen.

Ek sluit die gedig onder in.

Elsie

*Die Towenares – Eugene Marais*

Wat word van die meisie wat altyd alleen bly?

Sy wag nie meer vir die kom van die jagters nie;

sy maak nie meer die vuur van swart-doringhout nie.

Die wind waai verby haar ore;

sy hoor nie meer die danslied nie;

die stem van die storie-verteller is dood.

G'neen roep haar van ver nie

om mooi woorde te praat.

Sy hoor net die stem van die wind alleen,

en die wind treur altyd

omdat hy alleen is.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 22:52:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:52:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Symbols" 2008.06.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.155222.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.10 (01) [E]

In message <57c981290806100713h13ba4cc9i7cf1be258c401c9f at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> writes

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "History"
>
> Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]
>
> I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
> flags with open on them are common all over Texas.
>


My earlier comment that the choice of red white and blue stripes might be
preferred over say green white and orange stripes is that US-Americans
(don't know about Canadian-Americans or other kinds) sometimes have very
strong feelings about how/where their national flag is used.

I was once with someone who 'preferred not to look' at a little boy (?five
years old) who was wearing swimming trunks with the stars-and-stripes on
them. Most people outside the US would not have a problem with this use on
clothing.  Indeed, our national football strips sometimes mirror our
national flags.  But someone in the US who wanted to put up an 'open' flag
might think that putting up the stars-and-stripes with the word 'open' on it
was very inappropriate. The stripes and colours of the Netherlands flag
could, therefore, be a nod to the orthopraxy of flying the star-and-stripes
without actually 'dishonouring' the US flag.

Cheers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 16:35:52 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:35:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.093552.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

I am sure I am not the only one here that has noticed a good deal of
interest and knowledge in history among us. This has led me to think it
would be good to showcase some of this as long as it is relevant to the
Lowlands. So I am proposing another web series with historical information,
such as in article ranging from very brief blurbs to lengthy essays, also
including things like photographs, drawings, paintings, maps and music, with
or without accompanying text. Of interest would be for instance the
Hanseatic network topic we've talked about. Also, it would be nice to post
some interesting and relevant historical documents.

Some of this overlaps with works already posted in the other series. For
instance, there is Pat's article about wall anchors in the gallery (
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/reynolds_muurankers.php). In the travel series
there are Andrys' article about St. Jacob (
http://lowlands-l.net/travels/stjabik.php), Jonny's about Hadeln (
http://lowlands-l.net/travels/hadeln.php), Arend's about the Priestless
Church (http://lowlands-l.net/travels/ballin-stadt.php) and mine about
Ballin-Stadt (http://lowlands-l.net/travels/ballin-stadt.php). Why, I can
even see Tom's article about Edinburgh (
http://lowlands-l.net/travels/edinburgh.php) showcased under "History", for
it describes a walk along the city's historical high points. I see nothing
wrong with double-posting these pieces, i.e. in posting them in the history
series as well if the creators agree with this. And, by the way, all of
these pages get a good number of visitors pretty much all the time. So don't
ever think they're disappearing in a black hole!

Furthermore, over the years there has been a good deal of interest in
Lowlands folklore: myths, tales, customs, taboos, songs, nursery rhymes and
so forth. It would be good to showcase some of this also, probably in brief
blurbs, songs and rhymes just by themselves or with brief introductions.

So I am talking about potentially two new series. Other series might
materialize later (such as a more scholarly linguistic one I can envisage).

I encourage you to think about this and to consider contributing to it. You
may do so in any language you wish (yes, Scandinavian, French, Italian,
Spanish, Portuguese, Estonian, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic or
whatever, too), though at least English summaries would be nice, which don't
have to be written by the original authors. Please bear in mind that you can
list any of these contributions as published works on your résumés or
curricula vitae. Also bear in mind that, while you give us permission to
showcase your works, you remain the actual copyright owners.

Please suggest titles for the propose series.

   - History:
   - Folklore:

Lowlanders, please remember that, no matter how modest, such projects really
constitute a type of public service in that it creates educational resources
about our languages, cultures and places. This makes a real difference
especially among internationally lesser known ones. We are putting them on
the map by sharing them with people that previously knew little or nothing
about them, that may not even have known they existed.

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Our series so far:

   - http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/
   - http://lowlands-l.net/travels/
   - http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/
   - http://lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 17:51:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:51:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.105114.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.10 (03) [E]

The general apocope of schwa in most Low Saxon languages of Germany looks
special compared to the national Standard German, but in Standard Dutch
most schwas were long dropped, too.
The funny thing is that most Low Saxon languages in the Netherlands do not
drop schwa, so in that they look more like their neighbour's Standard
German, whereas LS in Germany looks more like the Standard language of
their Dutch comglots.

The superlength and voiced final stops you mention for Northern Low Saxon
in Germany do not occur in Dutch.

Dutch, same examples:
haas  [ha:s]
haar  [ha:r]
deel  [de:&#322;]
lui   [lœY]
bruid [brœYt]
maag  [ma:x]
oog   [o&#650;x]
laag  [la:x]
droog [dro&#650;x]
loog  [lo&#650;x]

Dutch Low Saxon:
(SAMPA prono)
haze  ["ha:z@]
haor  [hO:9]
deel  [de:l]
leu   [l2:]
broed [brut]
mage  ["ma:G@]
oge   ["o:G@]
leeg  [le:x]
dreuge["dr2:G@]
loog  [lo:x]

In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -
e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is

Ingmar

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Thanks again, Travis, for these interesting and important bits of
> information. The Kahuna (http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) has
> begun to pay attention.
>
> Low Saxon apocope is morpheme-final. There are two interesting things
about
> it:
>
> While it did (or does?) apply in most North Saxon dialects (which are the
> ones that tend to dominate the presence of the language), it did not
apply
> in a good number of others, especially in Westphalian and Eastphalian
ones
> and North Saxon and Eastern dialects that border them. So you can still
> analyze living varieties that have no apocope.
>
> I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of lengthening
as
> a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many younger people who rely
> much on writing, most of which does not indicate it. In other words, this
> feature, along with distinction between diphthongs and long monophthongs,
is
> in the process of being lost in great part because of poor spelling.
Apocope
> causes lengthening of the preceding syllable, which in cases of long
> monophthongs leads to extra- or super-long monophthongs (referred to as
> Schleifton "drawl tone" in German). What's particularly interesting here
is
> that final devoicing (which otherwise applies consistently) is starved in
> the case of super-length. In other words, it looks as though apocope
applies
> after devoicing. In dialects with intervocalic d-deletion, /d/ may then
be
> deleted (which seems to have happened in the case of Dutch luyde > lui
> 'people'), and in a few dialects this happens to /g/ as well. Examples:
>
> Monophthongs:
> hase [&#712;h&#594;&#720;ze] ~> haas' [h&#594;&#720;&#721;z] (not
*[h&#594;&#720;s]) 'hare'
> (haar [h&#594;&#720;&#592;] 'hair' >) hare [h&#594;&#720;re] -> haar'
[h&#594;&#720;&#721;&#592;] 'hairs'
> stede [&#712;ste&#720;(d)e] ~> steed' [ste&#720;&#721;(d)] (not
*[ste&#720;t]) 'stead', 'place',
> 'spot'
> dele [&#712;de&#720;le] ~> deel' [de&#720;&#721;l] (not *[de&#720;l])
'floor', 'hallway', 'stage'
> luyde [ly&#720;(d)e] ~> luyd' [&#712;ly&#720;&#721;(d)] (not *[ly&#720;t])
'people'
> (bruud 'bride' [bru&#720;t] >) bruyde [&#712;bry&#720;(d)e] ~> bruyd'
[bry&#720;&#721;(d)] (not
> *[bry&#720;t]) 'brides'
> (dag [dax] 'day' >) dage [&#712;d&#594;&#720;&#611;e] ~> daag'
[d&#594;&#720;&#721;&#611;] (not *[d&#594;&#720;x]) 'days'
> mage [&#712;m&#594;&#720;&#611;e] ~> maag' [m&#594;&#720;&#721;&#611;]
(not *[m&#594;&#720;x]) 'stomach'
> (weg [v&#603;ç] 'way' >) wege [&#712;ve&#720;&#611;e] ~ weeg'
[ve&#720;&#721;&#611;] (not *[ve&#720;ç]) 'ways'
> (schaap [&#643;&#594;&#720;p] 'sheep' >) schape
[&#712;&#643;&#594;&#720;pe] ~> schaap' [&#643;&#594;&#720;&#721;p] (not
*[&#643;&#594;&#720;p])
> 'sheep' (pl.)
> oge [&#660;o&#720;&#611;e] ~> oog' [&#660;o&#720;&#721;&#611;] (not
[&#660;o&#720;x] or [&#660;&#596;&#650;x]) 'eye'
> (schip [&#643;&#618;p] 'ship' >) schippe [&#712;&#643;&#618;pe] ~> scheep'
[&#643;e&#720;&#721;p] (not *[&#643;e&#720;p])
> 'ships' ([&#618;&#720;] > [e&#720;])
> But:
> stimme [&#712;st&#618;&#721;me] ~> stimm [st&#618;&#721;m] 'voice'
> lippe [&#712;l&#618;pe] ~> lipp [l&#618;p] 'lip'
> valle [&#712;fa&#721;le] ~> vall [&#712;fa&#721;&#322;] 'trap'
> (pot [p&#688;&#596;t] 'pot' >) pötte [&#712;p&#688;œte] ~> pöt [p&#688;œt]
'pots'
>
> Diphthongs:
> (leyge [&#712;l&#603;&#721;&#618;&
#669;e] ~ [&#712;la&#721;&#618;&#669;e] >) leyg' [l&#603;&#720;&#618;&#669;]
~ [la&#720;&#618;&#669;] ('low' >) 'bad'
>    (usually written leeg and mispronounced as [l&#603;&#618;ç])
> (droyge [&#712;drœ&#721;&#618;&#669;e] ~
[&#712;dr&#596;&#721;&#618;&#669;e] >) droyg' [drœ&#720;&#618;&#669;] ~
[dr&#596;&#720;&#618;&#669;] 'dry'
>    (usually written dröög and mispronounced as [drœ&#618;ç] ~
[dr&#596;&#618;ç])
> louge [&#712;l&#596;&#721;&#650;&#611;e] ~ [&#712;la&#721;&#650;&#611;e] >
loug' [&#712;l&#596;&#720;&#650;&#611;] ~ [&#712;la&#720;&#650;&#611;]
'lye', 'leach',
> 'solution'
>    (usually written Loog and mispronounced as [lo&#720;x] ~
[l&#596;&#650;x])
>
> Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;
> e.g. Dat huus is groot [gro&#720;t] un hoog [ho&#720;x] 'The
house/building is big
and
> tall', dat grote [gro&#720;te], hoge [&#712;ho&#720;&#611;e] huus 'the
big, tall
> house/building'.

As for this, I cannot really speak for certain, particularly because I
do not know all the circumstances of Northern Low Saxon apocope, but I
would probably approach it from the following point of view:

If said apocope is still productive, then it is easy to analyze. In
that case I suspect it would reflect an underlyingly retained /e/ in
word-final positions, as the elision thereof would result in
compensatory lengthening while shielding in the final consonant and
reinforcing its voicing (through it phonemically falling
intervocalically, where voicing influences tend to be very strong
crosslinguistically).

If said apocope is no longer productive, then things are a bit
trickier. In that event one would likely have to have phonemic
overlong vowels in the final syllables of morphemes or have some kind
of special null vowel phoneme following such syllables, and in the
former case either some ad hoc rule where overlong vowels prevent
devoicing of consonants in their codas or treat practically all words
except for words so affected as having final devoicing underlyingly
being allomorphy. As for such allomorphy, the problem would then be
that it would be the rule and not the exception, contrary to how
allomorphy generally works, even though one could treat it in terms of
such being the default behavior of words in general.

Of course, the largest clue to such is how loans from languages
allowing words with word-final schwas and or voiced consonants are
handled. If loans originally ending in schwas undergo apocope, then
such is still productive and thus the first case applies. If loans
originally ending in voiced consonants do not undergo final devoicing,
then the case of having final devoicing implemented through allomorphy
applies. If neither apply, though, it would require further analysis
to determine whether such reflects final null vowel phoneme of some
sort, as ad hoc as that really seems or having a phonemic overlong
vowel whose presence synchronically suppresses final devoicing of its
syllable's coda.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot for that, Travis (also for the piece about Wisconsin
identity).

Your take on Low Saxon apocope happens to be the same as mine.

Lately I am inclined to see Low Saxon apocope as still productive,
resulting
in overlength as a matter of compensatory lengthening, at least in some
dialects. However, I also think that apocope is no longer productive in a
number of dialects and idiolects and that it is these that have dropped
compensatory lengthening.

The reason why I think apocope is still productive at least in some
dialects
is precisely the one you mentioned: treatment of loanwords.

For example, these days people say and write *leertast*
(*L**&#281;**&#281;rtast*)
[&#712;le&#720;&#605;tast] 'space bar' (< German *Leertaste*), *buyn'*
(*Bühn*) [by&#720;(&#721;)n]
(< German *Bühne*) for '(theater) stage' (instead of native *speeldeel* (*
Sp&#281;&#281;ld&#281;&#281;l*)), and *juud'* (*Juud'*)
[&#607;u&#720;(&#721;)(d)] for 'Jew' (< German *Jude*)
replacing native *joyd'* (*Jööd'*)). However, there are others that say and
write *leertaste* (*L**&#281;**&#281;rtaste*), *buyne* (*Bühne*) and *jude*
(*Jude*)
respectively.

However, most speakers that apply compensatory lengthening do not know that
they are doing so, and they would not be able to explain it even if they
did. It thus goes by most adult learners, and it does not help that it is
not (consistently) indicated orthographically and so far has not been
described and taught in textbooks for ordinary folk. So, while by no means
dead and gone, it is going down the tubes because of inattention.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar,

My examples are limited to those North Saxon varieties that do have apocope.
Even within this group there are those that do not have it, especially those
at the geographic periphery. Most varieties of the Eastphalian and
Westphalian groups do not have apocope, the latter and the southwestern
North Saxon varieties bordering on those of most Low Saxon varieties of the
Netherlands, having been on a continuum with them.

This is quite consistent with what you wrote:

In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -
e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online interface.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 19:19:57 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:19:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.121957.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page
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=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (02) [E]

"The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online interface."

So now it's my fault ?! For as long as I know, I've read and answered LLL
messages from the Archives, if that's what you mean, because I don't want
my mailbox to be filled with hundreds of emails everyday... from this and
other groups. And I'm not interested in all subjects either, so now I can
pick them.

As you mention Westphalian and Eastphalian, not having apocope, we come
back to "Language Varieties" of a couple of days ago, when I stated we
might rather speak of Low Saxon languages than of A Low Saxon langage.

Both "Phalians" could be seen (together) as such a LS language, different
from e.g. the Northern Low Saxon language, consisting of the dialects of
Hamburg, Bremen, Schleswig Holstein, Ost-Friesland etc. etc.

In the Netherlands, the Achterhoek (=East Gelderland) and Twente (=East
Overyssel) LS dialects, together with Germany's Westmünsterland and
Bentheim dialects, which I call "Hamaland LS"  can be seen as a transition
between the Phalian LS language and the dialects of the West Dutch Low
Saxon language of the Veluwe, Salland (= West Overyssel), South East
Drenthe and Stellingwarvian (S.E. Friesland). But one could also state
that this latter Western group is the transition to real Dutch dialects
already, because of the many features shared with Dutch such as oe [u:]
for oo [o:]/ ou [OU] in boek, ie [i:] for ee [e:], ei [EI] in niet, uu
[y:] for eu [2:] / ui [9Y] in gruun, uu [y] for oe [u] in uut, the lack
of 'du', e- in edaon for daon (Dutch gedaan) etc, verb order: dat ik bin
egaon for dat ik gaon bin. Something typically Franconian is "ou", "oe"
instead of "jou", "joe" you.

Central and South East Drenthe LS dialects (NL) can be seen as
transitional to yet another Low Saxon language, that of Groningen and
North Drenthe, to which the East Frisian dialects seem to belong as well.

Ingmar
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar,

My examples are limited to those North Saxon varieties that do have
apocope.
Even within this group there are those that do not have it, especially
those
at the geographic periphery. Most varieties of the Eastphalian and
Westphalian groups do not have apocope, the latter and the southwestern
North Saxon varieties bordering on those of most Low Saxon varieties of the
Netherlands, having been on a continuum with them.

This is quite consistent with what you wrote:

In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -
e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online
interface.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar:

So now it's my fault ?!

Did I say that? I think not. I was just pointing out to you and others
what's happening, that the archive submission interface has that drawback
when it comes to "special" characters.

The same applies to mail from accounts that process messages in HTML mode
with colors and various other bells and whistles.

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 20:36:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:36:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.133619.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).
If viewing this in a web browser, please click on
the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page
and switch your browser's character encoding to Unicode.
=========================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (02) [E]

 "The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online interface."

 So now it's my fault ?! For as long as I know, I've read and answered LLL
 messages from the Archives, if that's what you mean, because I don't want
 my mailbox to be filled with hundreds of emails everyday... from this and
 other groups. And I'm not interested in all subjects either, so now I can
 pick them.

 As you mention Westphalian and Eastphalian, not having apocope, we come
 back to "Language Varieties" of a couple of days ago, when I stated we
 might rather speak of Low Saxon languages than of A Low Saxon langage.

 Both "Phalians" could be seen (together) as such a LS language, different
 from e.g. the Northern Low Saxon language, consisting of the dialects of
 Hamburg, Bremen, Schleswig Holstein, Ost-Friesland etc. etc.

 In the Netherlands, the Achterhoek (=East Gelderland) and Twente (=East
 Overyssel) LS dialects, together with Germany's Westmünsterland and
 Bentheim dialects, which I call "Hamaland LS"  can be seen as a transition
 between the Phalian LS language and the dialects of the West Dutch Low
 Saxon language of the Veluwe, Salland (= West Overyssel), South East
 Drenthe and Stellingwarvian (S.E. Friesland). But one could also state
 that this latter Western group is the transition to real Dutch dialects
 already, because of the many features shared with Dutch such as oe [u:]
 for oo [o:]/ ou [OU] in boek, ie [i:] for ee [e:], ei [EI] in niet, uu
 [y:] for eu [2:] / ui [9Y] in gruun, uu [y] for oe [u] in uut, the lack
 of 'du', e- in edaon for daon (Dutch gedaan) etc, verb order: dat ik bin
 egaon for dat ik gaon bin. Something typically Franconian is "ou", "oe"
 instead of "jou", "joe" you.

 Central and South East Drenthe LS dialects (NL) can be seen as
 transitional to yet another Low Saxon language, that of Groningen and
 North Drenthe, to which the East Frisian dialects seem to belong as well.

 Ingmar
 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

 Ingmar,

 My examples are limited to those North Saxon varieties that do have
 apocope.
 Even within this group there are those that do not have it, especially
 those
 at the geographic periphery. Most varieties of the Eastphalian and
 Westphalian groups do not have apocope, the latter and the southwestern
 North Saxon varieties bordering on those of most Low Saxon varieties of the
 Netherlands, having been on a continuum with them.

 This is quite consistent with what you wrote:

 In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -
 e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is

 Regards,
 Reinhard/Ron

 P.S.: The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online
 interface.

----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Ingmar:

 So now it's my fault ?!

Did I say that? I think not. I was just pointing out to you and others
what's happening, that the archive submission interface has that drawback
when it comes to "special" characters.

The same applies to mail from accounts that process messages in HTML mode
with colors and various other bells and whistles.

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 20:43:03 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:43:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.11 (04) [A]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.134303.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.10 (05) [A/E]

 Beste Elsie en Theo:

Onderwerp: LL-L "Lexicon"

Ek kan my vererg dat ek nie die 'Eugene' Marais gesnap het nie, my keudigter
in Afrikaans.

Terloops, ek praat onder korreksie, maar is kohl nie 'n vorm van kopererts
nie? Daar is myne ontdek in Swaziland wat tientalle duisend jare gelede glo
bewerk is vir 'kohl', waar kopererts ontgin word. Die ertsoplossing is eens
in Egipte met gestook affineer, en in gelyke wyse toe die alkahol uit gebrou
uit. Om die rede het ons die woord alkahol uit die Arabies 'al kohl'.

Ek dink aan u stelling, Elsie, oor die snoesige, langdurige hitte van
swart-doringhout en die hoflikheid daarbyvorbonde. Vir seker is dit wat saak
maak, want is die stem van die storieverteller asook die danslied en die
versoek om haar te hoor nie saam met die jagterswederkoms (iedereen in
teendeel nie-towenaarlike verdrywe) heen nie?

Dankie vir die gedig en die ontdekking.

Die uwe,
Mark

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 20:48:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:48:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.11 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.134858.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

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 ========================================================================
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]

>From Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote about setting up a history/folklore section

The group may be interested in the following which was posted on the
Linguanet forum and they may also like to make sure that the Low German
section is FULL to bursting!

Languages from the Cradle, Wiki space opened http:// <http:///>
lullabiesofeurope.wetpaint.com/

A brief update on the progress of the Languages from the Cradle Lingua
project. This project is collecting Lullabies in the original European
languages, with their translations and for families, schools and children
to use. Lullabies in multiple languages will be motivational resource to
introduce new languages into a family setting.

1.The first samples of our lullabies can now be found on the project
website at: http://www.lullabies-of-europe.org/
2. A Wiki space has now been launched, were subscribers can add lullabies
in all languages, with translations and information. http:// <http:///>
lullabiesofeurope.wetpaint.com/ called the, Languages from the Cradle
Education Project.

We invite you to contribute or use the resources.

If you have any questions or need help, please feel free to ask on the
Languages from the Cradle Wiki forum.

Thank you for your interest in our project and we look forward to your
contributions on our shared Wiki.

Dr. Figen Sat Yilmaz
Email: info at lullabies-of-europe.org
Project coordinator
Cukurova University, Adana, Turkey

PS It is EU Socrates supoprted project

love

Heather
----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]

Hi Ron, Good plans. I like the folklore cum mythology etc. etc. However, one
request: Please make the linguistics on a level that a non-professional can
understand without having to look up every other word. Bij voorbaat bedankt.
Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources
Thanks, "guys"! (Or should that be "dudes"?)

Jacqueline, the linguistics thing is barely on the radar screen at this
point. We'll have to discuss the format if it ever comes to that.

An alternative might be a "soft-core" article with a "hard-core" abstract
fofr the purpose of "respectability". ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 20:51:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:51:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.135107.0700.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]

>From Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote about setting up a history/folklore section

The group may be interested in the following which was posted on the
Linguanet forum and they may also like to make sure that the Low German
section is FULL to bursting!

Languages from the Cradle, Wiki space opened http:// <http:///>
lullabiesofeurope.wetpaint.com/

A brief update on the progress of the Languages from the Cradle Lingua
project. This project is collecting Lullabies in the original European
languages, with their translations and for families, schools and children
to use. Lullabies in multiple languages will be motivational resource to
introduce new languages into a family setting.

1.The first samples of our lullabies can now be found on the project
website at: http://www.lullabies-of-europe.org/
2. A Wiki space has now been launched, were subscribers can add lullabies
in all languages, with translations and information. http:// <http:///>
lullabiesofeurope.wetpaint.com/ called the, Languages from the Cradle
Education Project.

We invite you to contribute or use the resources.

If you have any questions or need help, please feel free to ask on the
Languages from the Cradle Wiki forum.

Thank you for your interest in our project and we look forward to your
contributions on our shared Wiki.

Dr. Figen Sat Yilmaz
Email: info at lullabies-of-europe.org
Project coordinator
Cukurova University, Adana, Turkey

PS It is EU Socrates supoprted project

love

Heather
----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]

Hi Ron, Good plans. I like the folklore cum mythology etc. etc. However, one
request: Please make the linguistics on a level that a non-professional can
understand without having to look up every other word. Bij voorbaat bedankt.
Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources
Thanks, "guys"! (Or should that be "dudes"?)

Jacqueline, the linguistics thing is barely on the radar screen at this
point. We'll have to discuss the format if it ever comes to that.

An alternative might be a "soft-core" article with a "hard-core" abstract
fofr the purpose of "respectability". ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 14:17:00 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:17:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.071700.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (03) [E]

Hey, you forgot to insert my message in which I was reacting to yours
below by saying that I was just joking and of course know you didn't blame
me; instead you placed the same message again in which I'm "complaining",
but I want you to know it wasn't serious ;-)

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Ingmar:

 So now it's my fault ?!

Did I say that? I think not. I was just pointing out to you and others
what's happening, that the archive submission interface has that drawback
when it comes to "special" characters.

The same applies to mail from accounts that process messages in HTML mode
with colors and various other bells and whistles.

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar,

I didn't forget it. That submission of yours arrived after I sent off the
preceding bundle.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 15:58:52 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:58:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.085852.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Lowlanders,

A book that may interest some of us has just been published, dealing with
the global "expiration" of standard language.

http://www.nobelprijsvoordeliteratuur.nl/meulenhoff/result-titel.asp?ISBN=9789029082655

The author is Joop Van Der Horst, a Dutch professor in Louvain (B). He
compares our present-day era with the transition from the Middle Ages to
Renaissance, a period in which many standard languages were created. Right
now, he thinks, evolution is going the other way round: deconstruction. Ah
well...the cyclic view of history, eternal birth and death, it makes me
wonder how the new standard language in a century or two will look/sound
like.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 16:00:29 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:00:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.12 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.090029.0700.>

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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.10 (02) [E]

Dear Travis and rest,


You mentioned:


>  In the middle you have
> cases like much of Wisconsin, where the population is largely
> assimilated, where the only signs of the language(s) they spoke before
> English are substratum features in their English, but where there is
> still the retention of a distinct identity rather than being
> completely assimilated into Anglo-American society.
>
When I went to work in Neenah WI as a physician in 1964, I had a patient
with a very definite European accent consult me. I asked him, "Where were
you born?"

He answered, "Denmark."

As I tried to compute his medical problem, unconsciously I was off on his
ethnicity. It definitely wasn't Danish. His was a German accent. Eureka!
(remember, still unconscious) He was born in Denmark, Wisconsin, where most
people still spoke German.

QED

Jorge Potter

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 15:56:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:56:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.085635.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Dear Lowlanders,

(My friend Jake, whom I address with Jakes, had better not find out about
this one, based on what I found out a few days ago.)

My basic question is if and where the word "jakes" for 'privy', 'toilet', is
still in use in English.

The etymology of this word is uncertain but is generally believed to go back
to the French name Jacques (Jacob). I suppose it arose from some type of
jargon, just as "john" did in American English and *Tante Meier* ("Auntie
Meier") in Northern Germany's Missingsch varieties (later adopted by casual
Northern German). Maybe these developed from taboo replacements like this:
"Where are you going?" "To visit Jacques/John/Auntie Meier" (as in American
English "to see a man about a horse").

"Jakes" (looking like a plural form but treated as a singular form, hence
strengthening the "Jacques" hypothesis) was apparently much in use in Early
Modern English. In fact, it and its occasional alternative spelling "jacks"
are involved in one of the various clues we get about pronunciation of
Southern English during 16th century. As a matter of word play, an
alternative to "jakes" was "ajax" during the Elizabethan era. From poetic
meter we can tell that the name Ajax (then usually spelled "Aiax") was not
pronounced [ˈʔɛɪʤæks] or [ˈʔɛɪʤɛks] as it is today but had main stress on
the final syllable: something like *[ʔaˈʤæːks]. This then sounded like "a
jakes".

"Your Lion that holds his Pollax sitting on a close stoole, will be giuen to
Aiax."
                                                             William
Shakespeare, *Troilus & Cressida*, 1588

So the clue is that the /a/ in written "aCe" was pronounced [æː], as it is
in some northern dialects of England (Northeastern, Lancashire?) I seem to
be not the only one that believes that, despite occasional spelling
confusion, the "a" in spelled "aCe" was pronounced longer than the "a" in
spelled "aC" (as in "jake" vs. "jack"). This jives with the fact that only
the longer vowel later turned into a diphthong, a rising diphthong ([ɛɪ]) in
most dialects and an even ([ɛɜ̯]) falling ([ɛæ̯], [ɛa̯]) diphthong in some
dialects such as Irish and West Indian ones. I hear slightly falling
diphthongs in some "authentically" pronounced literary lines.

Hear some of Shakespeare's lines of reconstructed pronunciation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today4_shakespeare_20050719.ram
http://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/media/mp3/reasons.html
http://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/media/mp3/cassius.html

So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [ˈʃæːkspeːɹ] at the time
(cf. modern [ˈʃɛɪkspɪɹ], [ˈʃɛɪkspiɝ], [ˈʃeɪkspɪə], [ˈʃæɪkspɪə], etc.).

Many Canadian speakers have monophthong [eː] as an equivalent of the said
sound (thus saying [ˈʃeːkspɪɹ], I guess). On the US side, too, many speakers
[eː] or [ɛː] in names like "Australia".

As you can tell, I'm fascinated by phonological/phonetic reconstruction. Any
relevant information and idea (not only about English) would be welcome.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 18:53:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:53:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.12 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.115310.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" [A]

Haai julle,

Mark, dis 'n plesier. Die Towenares was nie in my Groot Verseboek nie maar
Google weet alles.
Dit was vir my ook 'n ontdekking en dankie aan Theo vir die vraagje. Ek dink
dat Marais lank sy
tyd vooruit was en dat hy nie genoeg erkenning kry vir sy vreemd moderne
aanslag nie.
Ek het hier in my hand 'Mumtaz' se 'Kajal with almond oil for sensitive
eyes', en Wikipedia laat weet
die volgende;

*Kohl* is a mixture of soot <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soot> and other
ingredients used predominantly by Middle
Eastern<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East>,
North African <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa>, Sub-Saharan
African <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa>, and South
Asian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia>
women <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman>, and to a lesser extent
men<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man>,
to darken the eyelids <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyelid> and as
mascara<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mascara>for the
eyelashes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyelash>. Kohl {from
Arabic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language>كحل
kuḥl) is also sometimes spelled *kol*, *kehal* (in the Arab
world<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world>),
or *kohal*, and is known as *surma* or *kajal* in South
Asia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia>.
It is the etymon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymon> of
"alcohol<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol>
."[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-DCECH-0>

Kohl has been worn traditionally as far back as the Bronze
Age<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age>(3500 B.C. onward). Kohl
was originally used as protection against
eye <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye> ailments. Darkening around the
eyelids also provided relief from the glare of the
sun<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun>.
Mothers would also apply kohl to their
infants<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant>'
eyes soon after birth <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth>. Some did this to
"strengthen the child's eyes," and others believed it could prevent the
child from being cursed by an "evil eye<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_eye>
".[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-hardy_cairo-1>

Groete,

Elsie

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.10 (05) [A/E]

Beste
Elsie en Theo:

Onderwerp: LL-L "Lexicon"

Ek kan my vererg dat ek nie die 'Eugene' Marais gesnap het nie, my keudigter
in Afrikaans.

Terloops, ek praat onder korreksie, maar is kohl nie 'n vorm van kopererts
nie? Daar is myne ontdek in Swaziland wat tientalle duisend jare gelede glo
bewerk is vir 'kohl', waar kopererts ontgin word. Die ertsoplossing is eens
in Egipte met gestook affineer, en in gelyke wyse toe die alkahol uit gebrou
uit. Om die rede het ons die woord alkahol uit die Arabies 'al kohl'.

Ek dink aan u stelling, Elsie, oor die snoesige, langdurige hitte van
swart-doringhout en die hoflikheid daarbyvorbonde. Vir seker is dit wat saak
maak, want is die stem van die storieverteller asook die danslied en die
versoek om haar te hoor nie saam met die jagterswederkoms (iedereen in
teendeel nie-towenaarlike verdrywe) heen nie?

Dankie vir die gedig en die ontdekking.

Die uwe,
Mark
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 20:28:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:28:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.12 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.132810.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.12 (04) [E]

> From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.10 (02) [E]
>
>> Dear Travis and rest,
>
> You mentioned:
>
>>  In the middle you have
>> cases like much of Wisconsin, where the population is largely
>> assimilated, where the only signs of the language(s) they spoke before
>> English are substratum features in their English, but where there is
>> still the retention of a distinct identity rather than being
>> completely assimilated into Anglo-American society.
>
> When I went to work in Neenah WI as a physician in 1964, I had a patient
> with a very definite European accent consult me. I asked him, "Where were
> you born?"
>
> He answered, "Denmark."
>
> As I tried to compute his medical problem, unconsciously I was off on his
> ethnicity. It definitely wasn't Danish. His was a German accent. Eureka!
> (remember, still unconscious) He was born in Denmark, Wisconsin, where
most
> people still spoke German.
>
> QED

One should remember here that the language loss which I described
occurred the very latest in rural northern Wisconsin, so it is not
surprising if there were people still around actively speaking German
in Denmark, WI in the 1960s. (As opposed to here in southeastern
Wisconsin, where German was already well on its way to local
extinction, with very many people in my grandparents' generation
already having become English-monolingual.) Mind you though that there
was also significant settlement by North Germanic-speakers in parts of
Wisconsin, particularly Norwegians, but also including Danes, Swedes,
and Icelanders, and considering the name of the town in question it is
not inconceivable that it had been at least originally settled by
North Germanic-speakers.

Also, accent does not indicate such in and of itself; for instance,
the English spoken here has phonetic signs of German influence even
today, such as limited final fortition in less GA-like idiolects and
the particular realization of rounded back vowels, despite German
being practically extinct here (aside from the occasional very old
person, of which there are fewer than even older people speaking
Polish). Hell, I myself have been told that I have a foreign accent,
and I am for all practical intents and purposes English-monolingual
(despite being able to read and write German when I have sufficient
access to a good dictionary).

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 00:10:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:10:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.12 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.171036.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E]

My basic question is if and where the word "jakes" for 'privy',

 'toilet', is still in use in English.

>
> The etymology of this word is uncertain but is generally believed to go
> back to the French name Jacques (Jacob).
>


This then sounded like "a jakes".

>
> "Your Lion that holds his Pollax sitting on a close stoole, will be giuen
> to Aiax."
>                                                             William
> Shakespeare, /Troilus & Cressida/, 1588
>
>
I wonder if it is related to "jacksey" meaning backside or fanny in US
English. Not sure whether that's on the right path :-)

Andrys

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 00:12:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:12:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.171247.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [ˈʃæːkspeːɹ] at the time
> (cf. modern [ˈʃɛɪkspɪɹ], [ˈʃɛɪkspiɝ], [ˈʃeɪkspɪə], [ˈʃæɪkspɪə], etc.).
>
> Many Canadian speakers have monophthong [eː] as an equivalent of the said
> sound (thus saying [ˈʃeːkspɪɹ], I guess). On the US side, too, many
speakers
> [eː] or [ɛː] in names like "Australia".

The above actually applies to a lot of North American English
dialects, including many Upper Midwestern and Californian dialects.
For instance, here "Shakespeare" would be [ˈʃeʔksʲpʲɪːʁ] or
[ˈʃeʔksʲpiːʁ̩ː] (X-SAMPA: ["Se?ks'p'I:R] or ["Se?ks'pi:R=:]). (Note
the vowel length is different from in the Canadian case, and at least
from one Canadian from Ontario I've talked to, they still have limited
preservation of historical English vowel length up there.)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 15:00:31 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:00:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.13 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.080031.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy and lucky Friday the 13th to all of you!

Our Andrys did it again! I just published his latest travel report at our
Travels site. Please take a look at it, but don't let the high quality of
Andrys' writing intimidate you! We won't hold anyone to that high standard.

http://www.lowlands-l.net/travels/ameland.php

Please keep thinking and preparing for two new series: one about history and
one about folklore.

Let me hasten to add that our Jakob Liek's Gallery series of essays about
the olden days in Sealand (Zeeland, http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/liek.php)
are another prime candidate for cross-posting in the new history series.

Please try to come up with ideas and things you can do.

Question number one is "What titles and subtitles should we use?"

As for titles, I have the following (first) suggestions for the history
series and wonder what you think.

   - Backward Glances
   - How We Got Here
   - The Way We Came
   - The Way Things Went
   - The Way Things Were
   - Water under the Bridge

I kind of like "Water under the Bridge". Not only is it idiomatic but it is
poetic as well ... and it has this bridge metaphor that can convey
connections as well. But does it sound too much like "Let's forget about
it"? What I intend to convey is that those are things of the past and can't
be changed now, also want to allude to the constant passing of events and to
healing of feelings and relationships over time, but I don't want it to
sound as though things of the past are irrelevant.

If we chose this one, it would be all the more important to clarify things
by way of a subtitle, perhaps something like "History of the Lowlands
worldwide".

What do you think? Any alternative suggestions?

Please bear in mind that neither of the proposed series, nor anything else
we are about, is about the European Lowlands alone. It is about all
Lowlands-connected places, communities, individuals, languages, cultures and
events anywhere in the world. This includes such things such as early Dutch
merchants' presence in Japan, or Sephardic refugees and their descendants in
the Netherlands and Northern Germany and their roles in Latin America and
the West Indies, Dutch influences on Indonesian cultures, early Dutch-Mohawk
connections, early international sailors' cultures and codes, culture and
social structure of early released (and stranded) convicts in Australia,
British influence on Maori culture, the evolution of Griqua and Bastert
communities ...

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 15:46:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:46:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.13 (02) [D/V]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.084642.0700.>

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.12 (07) [E]

Beste Lowlanders,

Bij ons kennen we - voor naar het toilet gaan - de uitdrukking:

no Jules goan (Welke Jules is niet gekend).

Ook hoort men:

no Klétte goan (Welke Colette is niet gekend).

Misschien is er een Lowlander die hier meer over weet?!

Anderzijds wordt ook gezegd: no bachtn goan (dit is: naar achteren gaan).

Bachtn is het West-Vlaams voor "achter". Ze weumt zie bachtn 't hoeksje = ze
woont achter (om) de hoek. Ze stoeg bachtn heur durtsje = ze stond achter
haar deurtje.
Het West-Vlaams achter betekent dan "langs'. Achter de stroate loopm = langs
straat lopen. Achter da varretsje = langs dat vaartje.

Het is gevormd zoals buiten uit "uit" en binnen uit "in", boven uit "over",
beneden uit "neder" enz. Een verrassende oude techniek om van een voorzetsel
een bijwoord te maken! Zo ook het Engels before, behind ...

Toetnoasteki,

Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Roland,

Bedankt.

Is et môogelik da "Jules" in vroegere tydn rym-code vo "kuul" was en
"Colette" vo "toilette"?

Toetnoasteki,

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 16:36:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:36:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.093638.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (08) [E]

This Middle English [æ:] (SAMPA [{:] ) looks like an early phase in the
process from [a:] to [e:]. In the Netherlands, we see the same in several
dialects:

Standard Dutch:
maken [a:]  to make

Different Zeeland dialects:
from maeken [{:] through maeken [E:], to meken [e:]
But Zeeland Flemish has maoken [O:] like the rest of West Flemish

Stellingwerven Low Saxon (S.E. Friesland, West Drenthe, N.W. Overyssel):
maeken [E:]

Probably Dutch had two different sounds for what is long a [a:] today in
words like maken, water vs slapen, jaar, as many dialects still have.

In the Low Saxon speaking Eastern and Northern Netherlands:

dark ao [O:] in slapen, jaar => slaopen [slO:p-m], jaor [jO:@]
aa [A:] in maken, water      => maken [mA:k-N], water [PA:t-r]

the latter aa is pronounced 'lighter', more palatal than Dutch aa [a:].

In North Holland dialects, also called West Fries, but being Dutch:

ee [e:], [eI] or ei [EI] in jeer, sleipe
aa [a:] or [Q:] in maken, water

the latter aa is often pronounced somewhat 'darker' than Dutch aa.

Historically, both A sounds were different:
aa in slapen, gaan, staan, daar etc was already a long vowel, whereas
a in water, maken is a short that was lengthned in open syllables.

So that's for the dialects.
An interesting feature in modern times is the prono of Dutch long A in
different regions.

In Amsterdam, aa tends to be pronounced dark [Q:], similar to Afrikaans.
This happens in more towns in the area, and in all communities there:
Dutch, Black, Muslim, Asian etc.

In Groningen, speakers tend to pronounce every Dutch long aa palatally as
ae [{:]. This is interesting because in Groningen Low Saxon, both A sounds
are pronounced very dark as oa [o:]. In their dialects it is goan, woater
etc., but when speaking Standard Dutch it's gaen, waeter etc.!

At the opposite side of the country, e.g. in the Brabant city of Tilburg,
this ae for Dutch aa is also spreading rapidly. In the Brabant dialects,
Dutch aa is usually ao [O:].

Palatal ae has always seen as an Ingvaeonic or North Sea Germanic feature.

Ingmar

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [ˈʃæːkspeːɹ] at the time
> (cf. modern [ˈʃɛɪkspɪɹ], [ˈʃɛɪkspiɝ], [ˈʃeɪkspɪə], [ˈʃæɪkspɪə], etc.).
>
> Many Canadian speakers have monophthong [eː] as an equivalent of the said
> sound (thus saying [ˈʃeːkspɪɹ], I guess). On the US side, too, many
speakers
> [eː] or [ɛː] in names like "Australia".

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (08) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [ˈʃæːkspeːɹ] at the time
(cf. modern [ˈʃɛɪkspɪɹ], [ˈʃɛɪkspiɝ], [ˈʃeɪkspɪə], [ˈʃæɪkspɪə], etc.).

I suspect it still had its terminal "r", rather like Americans say it. They
still pronounce it through much of Southwest England, and they were doing so
in Kent and Sussex into the 20th C.

In the 1998 film "Shakespeare in Love" the American cast members (e.g.
Gwyneth Paltrow, Ben Afleck) spoke with very convincing modern English
accents; it would have been more authentic if the British and others had
used American accents!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, guys!

Ingmar, have you ever researched if there are any early differentiations
between what in modern varieties is the separation of [a:] and [ɒ:]? It
might be worth our while to look at ancient forms in comparison with a short
list of examples.

Paul, it's great to "see" you again.

I suspect it still had its terminal "r", rather like Americans say it.

Yes, everyone seems to agree that rhoticism was the norm in the happening
places of Southern England in Shakespeare's time. Actually, when you take
all of the safe reconstructed features together (including the
characteristic [əɪ]* for what is now [aɪ] as in "I" and "eye") you end up
with something less sounding like American English, a bit more like Irish
English, and very much like old-time Southwest English dialects on which
"pirate talk" is based. ("Aye, me hearrties!") I don't know how that would
have gone over had it been used in the movie. (Imagine Gwyneth Paltrow
talking "like a pirate"!)  I believe these are the old-time English dialects
of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, western Wiltshire and southern Gloucestershire
(Bristol). Right? These could simply be more conservative.

(* This [əɪ] sound -- mid-shift between old [i:] and modern [aɪ] -- also
survived in many Scots and Scottish English varieties.)

I am in the middle of tweaking some phonetic detail of my Early Modern
English Wren translation. It should be up soon. Is anyone game to make a
recording? If not, I might end up taking a stab at it myself, or even in
addition. The more the merrier.

They still pronounce it through much of Southwest England, and they were
doing so in Kent and Sussex into the 20th C.

This is interesting with respect to Old Saxon, since we are talking about
one of England's "hard-core" Saxon areas. Non-rhoticism as in Southeastern
England, in Australia, in New Zealand and so forth is pretty much identical
with that of Northern Low Saxon.* However, perhaps they developed
independently from each other then. I had always wondered if the "seeds" of
it had crossed over to England with early Saxon colonization.

(* Non-rhoticism and voiceless stop aspiration are two important
phonological features Southern English dialects share with the Northern Low
Saxon heartland dialects, as opposed to rhoticism and non-aspiration in Low
Franconian, or rather Franconian in general.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 18:32:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:32:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.13 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.113214.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.13 (01) [E]

Ron asked:  I kind of like "Water under the Bridge"… But does it sound too
much like "Let's forget about it"?

I like it too.  It does have the connotation of "Let´s forget about it"
though.  But, I think with the subtitle you proposed, it would go over just
fine.
Mark Brooks
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 18:39:50 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:39:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.113950.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (03) [E]

That's hard to tell because there isn't very much written in Older Dutch,
but Western Dutch has the Frisian way, with EE from Old Germanic long ae
(as in English) and a darker lengthened A from Old Germanic short A in
open syllable, whereas the East has dark AO from O G long ae and a lighter
lengthened A, both in (most) Low Saxon and Low Franconian such as Brabant
and Limburg dialects.

My theory:
It's quite possible that in the beginning there was only a slight
difference between the A sounds, e.g. one region had [a:] and the other
[A:]. But Western [A:] had a tendency to become more palatal, into [{:],
especially with the rise of a new [A:] from lengthened short [A].
And [{:] can easily become [E:], [E:] to [e:], and [e:] to [I:] and in
Frisian (and English) even [i:].
North Holland leite = to let, sleipe = to sleep, deer = there, Zeeland
laete(n), slaepe(n), daer.

A whole chain reaction.
The Eastern [a:] had a tendency to become darker into [Q:], when short [a]
was lengthened to [a:]. And from [Q:] to [O:] is but a small step.
Maone ["mO:n@] = moon, daor [do:@] = there, slaopen ["slO:p-m] = to sleep
In English words like moon and spoon this development went even further.

There are still regions in the Netherlands where short A is pronounced
differently than in Standard Dutch. The city of Utrecht, which is
Standard Dutch speaking, is famous for its [A] instead of [a], so is the
Brabant city of Tilburg (which also has long ae [{:]) and the Brabant city
of Antwerp in Dutch (Flemish) speaking Belgium. To Standard Dutch ears,
this is the same prono as Standard English short A in cat.

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar, have you ever researched if there are any early differentiations
between what in modern varieties is the separation of [a:] and [ɒ:]? It
might be worth our while to look at ancient forms in comparison with a
short list of examples.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Ingmar.

But many of the words *are* known in Old Low Franconian. Besides, you don't
need to rely on Dutch sources alone. You can go back farther and see if the
relevant cognates in West Germanic, Germanic or actual related languages
show anything telling. Besides, you said that there are such differences in
certain Low Saxon varieties of the Netherlands as well. So a look at Old
Saxon is warranted, as well as at Old Frisian and Old English.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 22:14:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:14:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.151442.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (03) [E]

Heh - actually, both changes occurred historically in English, with
the change from Old English [ɑː] ([A:]) to Late Middle English [ɔː]
([O:]), and with the change from Late Middle English [aː] ([a:]) to
Early New English [ɛː] ([E:]).

> In Groningen, speakers tend to pronounce every Dutch long aa palatally as
> ae [{:]. This is interesting because in Groningen Low Saxon, both A sounds
> are pronounced very dark as oa [o:]. In their dialects it is goan, woater
> etc., but when speaking Standard Dutch it's gaen, waeter etc.!

That actually sounds like a sort of hypercorrection due to the
perceived difference between Groningen Low Saxon and Standard Dutch,
such that their Dutch pronunciation is exaggerated relative to that of
Groningen Low Saxon.

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Thanks, guys!
>
> Ingmar, have you ever researched if there are any early differentiations
> between what in modern varieties is the separation of [a:] and [ɒ:]? It
> might be worth our while to look at ancient forms in comparison with a
short
> list of examples.
>
> Paul, it's great to "see" you again.
>
> I suspect it still had its terminal "r", rather like Americans say it.
>
> Yes, everyone seems to agree that rhoticism was the norm in the happening
> places of Southern England in Shakespeare's time. Actually, when you take
> all of the safe reconstructed features together (including the
> characteristic [əɪ]* for what is now [aɪ] as in "I" and "eye") you end up
> with something less sounding like American English, a bit more like Irish
> English, and very much like old-time Southwest English dialects on which
> "pirate talk" is based. ("Aye, me hearrties!") I don't know how that would
> have gone over had it been used in the movie. (Imagine Gwyneth Paltrow
> talking "like a pirate"!)  I believe these are the old-time English
dialects
> of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, western Wiltshire and southern
Gloucestershire
> (Bristol). Right? These could simply be more conservative.
>
> (* This [əɪ] sound -- mid-shift between old [i:] and modern [aɪ] -- also
> survived in many Scots and Scottish English varieties.)
>
> I am in the middle of tweaking some phonetic detail of my Early Modern
> English Wren translation. It should be up soon. Is anyone game to make a
> recording? If not, I might end up taking a stab at it myself, or even in
> addition. The more the merrier.
>
> They still pronounce it through much of Southwest England, and they were
> doing so in Kent and Sussex into the 20th C.
>
> This is interesting with respect to Old Saxon, since we are talking about
> one of England's "hard-core" Saxon areas. Non-rhoticism as in Southeastern
> England, in Australia, in New Zealand and so forth is pretty much
identical
> with that of Northern Low Saxon.* However, perhaps they developed
> independently from each other then. I had always wondered if the "seeds"
of
> it had crossed over to England with early Saxon colonization.
>
> (* Non-rhoticism and voiceless stop aspiration are two important
> phonological features Southern English dialects share with the Northern
Low
> Saxon heartland dialects, as opposed to rhoticism and non-aspiration in
Low
> Franconian, or rather Franconian in general.)

I would suspect that is largely coincidental, as non-rhoticism in
southern English English dialects actually developed quite late (in
the 1600s), and only spread to the majority of England during the 20th
century. I think it would be more likely that the presence of
non-rhoticism in Northern Low Saxon is likely more closely related to
the development of such in High German dialects, which non-rhoticism
being areal in nature in continental West Germanic, than to the
development of such in English English myself.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Travis,

The thoughts of both your points have crossed my mind also.

As for "non-rhoticism", it seems difficult to determine which came first:
Low Saxon or German. The phonology of Standard German is strongly influenced
by Low Saxon. (By this I don't mean historical shifts, folks.)  Southerners
perceive "real high" pronunciation as very Northern, "Prussian." As for
Southern German dialects, there are those that are rhotic and those that are
non-rhotic (just as there are those that aspirate and those that don't). I
think the non-rhotics have it, though.

My feeling is that you are right, though, that non-rhoticism developed
independently in Low Saxon and Southern English. The same probably applies
to great similarities of diphthongs (e.g. Lower Elbe realization of /ou/ to
[ɛʊ] or [eʊ] where others have [oʊ], [ɔʊ], [aʊ] etc.) and the characteristic
realization of /ar/ as [aː] (rather than [ɑː]) shared with Australian, New
Zealand and some Southern England dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 14 16:43:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:43:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.14.JUN.2008.094311.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.13 (01) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

As for titles, I have the following (first) suggestions for the history
series and wonder what you think.

   - Backward Glances
      - How We Got Here
      - The Way We Came
      - The Way Things Went
      - The Way Things Were
      - Water under the Bridge

 They all have merit. Backwards and Forwards? (implies history and future
possibilities).

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Thanks a lot, Paul. It's nice of you to think about it.

I think the idea behind "Backwards and Forwards" has merit too.  But at
least to me it implies movement, thus "Going Backwards and Forwards" or
something like that.

My two favorites among the ones I myself proposed imply movement into the
future, at least they do so to me. To me, "Backward Glances" conjures up the
image of brief looks back while traveling forward. With an explanatory
subtitle at least, "Water under the Bridge" is not only a metaphor for the
constant passing of events and time and at the same time a metaphor for
sides trying to connect with each other, but to me it also implies forward
movement and the constant seeming repetitiveness of history, aside from the
ideas of unknowable origin and destiny. Too much of a Zen poet coming out
there?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 14 22:42:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 15:42:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.14 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.14.JUN.2008.154242.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Phonolpgy

 Some time ago Ron had questions about "rolling" the uvular R.

Actually a rolling uvular R is quite common for Belgian Dutch speakers from
Brussels, Tongeren, ... (towns relatively close to the language border),
even Ghent (town with a French speaking bourgeoisie for a long time).

I found a book today with a brief instruction how to learn and how (not) to
pronounce both rR as commonly heard in Belgian Dutch (In the Netherlands
they even have a larger variety of "r"s).

I scanned:
- for the *apico-alveolar r*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/apal.jpg
- for the *uvular R*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uv.jpg
Ron, pse try exercise nr 30. I'm sure it will work.

What is listed as "fout" (error) may be heard incidentally as variant.

Both are scanned from:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: consonanten*", Acco,
Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4030-4, 280 pp.

The book is not very interesting for learning scientifically about
pronounciation. It is more a collection of "*long lists of words*" for each
phoneme in combination with other relevant and intentionally choosen
phonemes as *exercise material for patients of logopedists*.

There is a similar publication for vowels:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: vocalen en diftongen*",
Acco, Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4031-1, 123 pp.

Enjoy the gargling,
Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot, Roger!

I'll practice it. I can already do it but not dry. ;-)

Here is my translation:

   - Gargling with a little water, head tilted back
   - The same exercise without water, perhaps with a little saliva; vocal
   chords must vibrate
   - Gargling with head tilted back, saying R while bringing head back up
   - R between two vowels: aaRaa, eeRee ...
   - In combination with a back consonant, preferably k: kRaa, kRee ...
   - The gradually omitting the kRaa, kRaa, Raa ..
   - Practicing the rest of the possible combinations and positions

By the way, I think the clearest pronunciation of the trilled uvular r is
that of the recording for the Wren translation in Nieuwpoort West Flemish:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 17:04:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:04:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (01) [D/V]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.100424.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Jean-Luc Detilleux <jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.13 (02) [D/V]

Beste Roland en al onze beste Lowlanders,

Bij ons in Wallonië is de uitdrukking "aller chez Jules" ook bekend, en
zelfs in Frankrijk. Wat de oorsprong betreft, weet ik er niets van. Geen
spoor daarvan op Yahoo, doch.

Tot genoegen,

Jean-Luc Detilleux

Roland Desnerck wrote

<From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
<Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.12 (07) [E]
 <Beste Lowlanders,
<
<Bij ons kennen we - voor naar het toilet gaan - de uitdrukking:
<
<no Jules goan (Welke Jules is niet gekend).
<
<Ook hoort men:
<
<no Klétte goan (Welke Colette is niet gekend).
<
<Misschien is er een Lowlander die hier meer over weet?!
<
<Toetnoasteki,
<
<Roland Desnerck
<Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Roland,

Bedankt.

Is et môogelik da "Jules" in vroegere tydn rym-code vo "kuul" was en
"Colette" vo "toilette"?

Toetnoasteki,
Reinhard/Ron

                 ---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ik schrêef:

Is et môogelik da "Jules" in vroegere tydn rym-code vo "kuul" was en
"Colette" vo "toilette"?

Of bêeter "kule" (= kuil)?

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 17:06:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:06:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Media" 2008.06.15 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.100637.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2008 - Volume 02
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Media"

Beste Lowlanners,

today I got this newsletter:

'Nederlandstalige programma's niet ondertitelen'

Vlaams minister van Media Geert Bourgeois (N-VA) wil
dat de Vlaamse en Nederlandse omroepen stoppen met het
ondertitelen van elkaars programma's. Hij heeft dat
gezegd tijdens een bezoek aan de Belgisch-Nederlandse
Vereniging in Brussel. Bourgeois vreest dat Nederlanders
en Vlamingen elkaar steeds minder goed zullen begrijpen
en benadrukt dat nergens in de wereld programma's in
dezelfde taal ondertiteld worden.

'In de VS worden geen Britse programma's ondertiteld, ondanks
de taalverschillen', aldus Bourgeois. Volgens woordvoerder
Ben Weyts ergert de minister zich aan het zogenaamde
'Verkavelingsvlaams' en het 'Poldernederlands'. In Nederland
wordt onder meer de Eén-reeks 'Flikken' ondertiteld en in
Vlaanderen de politiereeks 'Baantjer'.

---------------------

Bron:
De Redactie, 9 juni 2008
http://www.deredactie.be

---------------------
**
** 'Woord van de dag'
** Een initiatief van de vakgroep Nederlands, FU Berlin
** Abonnement nemen/opzeggen en archief op:
** http://www.niederlandistik.fu-berlin.de/woordvandedag/
**

Have a nice Sunday!

Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 17:48:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:48:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.104848.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.14 (02) [E]

In the Low Saxon speaking areas of the Netherlands, uvular pronunciation
of R has always been seen as an exception, a speech-defect, an affectation

But there is one interesting exception: the old Hansa towns along the
Yssel river, from North to South: Hasselt, Kampen, Zwolle, Hattum,
Zutphen, Doesburg pronounce their R-s uvularly, unlike the surrounding
country side. The same goes for the Low Franconian speaking Hansa cities
of Arnhem and Nymegen a bit further South.

Final R isn't usually pronounced in these areas (compare it to British
English and Northern German), but in the uvular towns, it is and it
effects the vowels into palatals:

ärm [{R at m] for arm ["ar at m]/[arm]/[a:m]/[a at m] Dutch arm = poor/arm, däör
[d9:R] for daor [dO:@] Dutch daar = there, zörg ["z9R at x] for zorg ["zQr at x]/
[zQrx]/["zQ at x] Dutch zorg = sorrow/care, kärke ["k{R at k@] for karke
["kark@]/["ka:k@]/[ka at k@] Dutch kerk = church.

May this uvular R in Hansa towns be German influenced? And from what area
in Germany then?

Ingmar

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Phonolpgy

 Some time ago Ron had questions about "rolling" the uvular R.

Actually a rolling uvular R is quite common for Belgian Dutch speakers from
Brussels, Tongeren, ... (towns relatively close to the language border),
even Ghent (town with a French speaking bourgeoisie for a long time).

I found a book today with a brief instruction how to learn and how (not) to
pronounce both rR as commonly heard in Belgian Dutch (In the Netherlands
they even have a larger variety of "r"s).

I scanned:
- for the *apico-alveolar r*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/apal.jpg
- for the *uvular R*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uv.jpg
Ron, pse try exercise nr 30. I'm sure it will work.

What is listed as "fout" (error) may be heard incidentally as variant.

Both are scanned from:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: consonanten*", Acco,
Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4030-4, 280 pp.

The book is not very interesting for learning scientifically about
pronounciation. It is more a collection of "*long lists of words*" for each
phoneme in combination with other relevant and intentionally choosen
phonemes as *exercise material for patients of logopedists*.

There is a similar publication for vowels:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: vocalen en
diftongen*",
Acco, Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4031-1, 123 pp.

Enjoy the gargling,
Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot, Roger!

I'll practice it. I can already do it but not dry. ;-)

Here is my translation:

  - Gargling with a little water, head tilted back
  - The same exercise without water, perhaps with a little saliva; vocal
  chords must vibrate
  - Gargling with head tilted back, saying R while bringing head back up
  - R between two vowels: aaRaa, eeRee ...
  - In combination with a back consonant, preferably k: kRaa, kRee ...
  - The gradually omitting the kRaa, kRaa, Raa ..
  - Practicing the rest of the possible combinations and positions

By the way, I think the clearest pronunciation of the trilled uvular r is
that of the recording for the Wren translation in Nieuwpoort West Flemish:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (06) [E]

Hi Ron and All,

Regarding rhotic English, the modern Standard and the spread of London or
Estuary speech have muddied the waters somewhat. When you look at most
dialects nearly all southern forms (except London and Standard) sound a
medial "r", nearly always an American-style retroflex one. You'll still hear
it in the non-"Essexised" parts of East Anglia, and again from Oxfordshire
all the way across to Devon. Formerly it occurred in the counties south of
London too, Sussex and Kent, though Estuary has more or less wiped it out.

The change comes at the Midlands, and by Northern England it is pretty much
absent.  "Dark" will be something like "daak" as opposed to "daarrk" in
Devon. The far north, e.g Cumbria and NorthumberlandNorth, don't sound it.
Yet when you cross into Scotland, it comes back even stronger - but trilled
this time, not retroflex.

I believe there is a clue in place-names: Danish names occur throughout the
East Midlands and North, but fall off quite sharply into Scotland (though
not exactly in line with the relatively recent modern border).  Rhotic
English thus seems to occur in the more "Saxon" or "Angle" bits, and is lost
in the Scandinavian parts.  London and Standard confuse the picture because
the Standard is in fact mostly based on Mediaeval East Midlands forms.
That's what Chaucer, and ultimately the English Court used, because
the powerful money-men, the merchant class, used it as a lingua franca
bridging North and South.

So why would Scandinavians kill off a medial "r" when all modern
Scandinavian languages as far as I know, use it? My pure speculation is that
Danish and English had different medial "r"s, an neither really heard the
other one properly - a bit like English speakers thinking that Japanese use
"r" for "l". So in effect everyone said it "wrong" and it smeared itself
out.

Pure speculation as I say, but I believe the geography stacks up, even if
the linguistics doesn't!

Paul Finlow-Bates
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Ingmar and Paul!

Before I forget to mention it again ... I can pronounce the uvular /r/
(approximant) just fine, using it natively in German. My mother pronounced
it, even though her parents both used the apical /r/, her father as a
speaker of Mecklenburg Low Saxon and her mother as a speaker of Lower
Silesian German (where the apical /r/ is now disappearing) with an Upper
Sorbian substratum. My father could only use the apical /r/, which was
typical of people of his generation of that place, probably of most of
Northern Germany, irrespective of if they grew up speaking Low Saxon or not,
because Northern German still had a much stronger Low Saxon substratum then.

What I've been having some problems with is the *trilled* uvular /r/. You
can hear it not only in many Belgian Dutch varieties but also in Walloon,
Picard etc., and of course in the Francien varieties of French in the
Île-de-france.
You hear it very clearly for instance in Edit Piaf's songs. And, by the way,
it is also used in "Stage German".

Ingmar, I definitely don't think the uvular /r/ was spread by the Hanseatic
League. We can safely assume that all of Northern Germany used the apical
trill. I suspect that most of the spread of the uvular /r/ emanated from the
Rhine area and west of it. What I find very interesting is that a good
number of Eastern Yiddish dialects have the uvular /r/. This is surprising
considering that they are surrounded by East European languages that use the
apical /r/. Two possibilities spring to mind: (1) it goes back to the
Franco-Rhenish area in which Yiddish began, or (2) it began as a type of *
daytshmerizm*, a German-inspired affectation, in more recent times.

Paul, thanks for all the interesting information. You have an interesting
theory. You wrote:

So why would Scandinavians kill off a medial "r" when all modern
Scandinavian languages as far as I know, use it?

There is a uvular /r/ "island" -- with apparently no connection to the
aforementioned area -- encompassing Denmark and the Scanian part of Southern
Sweden, and with it comes non-rhoticism (usually schwa with or without
r-coloring for *-er* and *-r*). Due to Danish rule it spread to the Bergen
area of Norway, where, however, non-rhoticism is absent or rare. I don't kn
ow if this has any bearing on your theory.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 19:02:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:02:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.120251.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (01) [D/V]

Hallo,
In de streek van Waregem gebruikt men "met de hond naar de smidse gaan" (to
go with the dog to the smithery).......
Wat de betekenis daarvan is, ontgaat me volledig.

Denis Dujardin
Kortrijk.(WVL)

*Denis Dujardin*
*Omgevingen*
*www.denisdujardin.be*
*0475723159*

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

Hello, Denis!

It's great to hear from you again.

I don't think any real meaning is intended with phrases like the one you
mention (as also in American English "to see a man about a horse" or "to see
a man about a dog"). They are taboo phrase replacements, the taboo being
explicitness in "polite" company about going to the bathroom ... uh, toilet.
However, since everyone knows what is really meant (as also in phrases like
"to wash one's hand", 'to freshen up" and "to powder one's nose") people
have put comical spins on some of these phrases, and making them sound
nonsensical and thus absurd is part of the fun.

As for American English "to see a man about a horse" or "to see a man about
a dog," these began during the alcohol prohibition era and used to have a
different meaning: to visit a bootlegger in order to buy liquor. So these
mean "I will be absent for a while," and this was later transferred to the
meaning of "I am about to visit the bathroom."

All of these phrases belong to the large category of euphemisms. Euphemisms
can be single words or whole phrases. They are a type of "doublespeak."
These particular types belong to the narrower category of indirections, i.e.
indirect references to something that for some reason or other ought not be
said. Furthermore, they are of the jocular and nonsensical types. It's not
actually a case of hidden meaning, since people know what the meaning is.

We use such euphemistic phrases all the time, though we aren't always aware
of it. In English, there examples like these:

to drop the kids off at the pool = to visit the bathroom < toilet
to kick the bucket = to die
to pop one's clogs = to die

There are, however, jocular euphemistic phrases that are not nonsensical,
such as Dutch *van de verkeerde kant* ("from the wrong side") 'homosexual',
*naar het kleinste kamertje* ("to the smallest room") 'to the bathroom' (=
toilet), and *proletarisch winkelen* ("proletarian shopping") 'theft'; also
English:

little boy's/girl's (room) = bathroom (= toilet)
to play for the other team = to be homosexual
to play for both teams = to be bisexual
to score = to get to have sex
to have a bun in the oven = to be pregnant

As you can see, these are more explicit.

In American English, "to go to the bathroom" is used so commonly that it no
longer needs to refer to a trip or visit but can refer to the actual act of
excretion; such as in "I'm sick and tired of the neighbor's dog going to the
bathroom on our front lawn" or "Little Billie went to the bathroom in the
swimming pool."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 23:00:15 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:00:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.160015.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Hugo Zweep <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

Poor dog - In Australia one goes to see a man about a dog.

Hugo Zweep

----------

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

"To see a man about a horse" or "to see a man about a dog" (I'd never run
across the latter variant before now) may have been popularized during
Prohibition, but it is attested as early as 1866, in the play *Flying
Scud*by Dion Boucicault.

Kevin Caldwell
 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hello, Denis!

It's great to hear from you again.

I don't think any real meaning is intended with phrases like the one you
mention (as also in American English "to see a man about a horse" or "to see
a man about a dog"). They are taboo phrase replacements, the taboo being
explicitness in "polite" company about going to the bathroom ... uh, toilet.
However, since everyone knows what is really meant (as also in phrases like
"to wash one's hand", 'to freshen up" and "to powder one's nose") people
have put comical spins on some of these phrases, and making them sound
nonsensical and thus absurd is part of the fun.

As for American English "to see a man about a horse" or "to see a man about
a dog," these began during the alcohol prohibition era and used to have a
different meaning: to visit a bootlegger in order to buy liquor. So these
mean "I will be absent for a while," and this was later transferred to the
meaning of "I am about to visit the bathroom."

�

==============================END===================================

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 22:56:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:56:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (05) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (03) [E]

Yes, Jews were the only Amsterdammers before WO II using the uvular r in
their local city Dutch/Hollandic accent. Modern Israeli Ivrith has it, and
I heard it even from Italian and Russian Jews as well. Moroccan and
Tunisian Jewish Arabic only has uvular r, which has been merged with
ghayn. So is it possible that uvular r is a kind of Jewish shibboleth,
which was already present in Biblical times in the Holy Land, and which
the Jews in the diaspora cultivated as a part of their identity?

Ingmar

Ingmar, I definitely don't think the uvular /r/ was spread by the Hanseatic
League. We can safely assume that all of Northern Germany used the apical
trill. I suspect that most of the spread of the uvular /r/ emanated from
the
Rhine area and west of it. What I find very interesting is that a good
number of Eastern Yiddish dialects have the uvular /r/. This is surprising
considering that they are surrounded by East European languages that use
the
apical /r/. Two possibilities spring to mind: (1) it goes back to the
Franco-Rhenish area in which Yiddish began, or (2) it began as a type of *
daytshmerizm*, a German-inspired affectation, in more recent times.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Ingmar,

I would be surprised if the spread of uvular /r/ were due to Jewish
transmission (at least in place other than the Netherlands). How would a
largely despised minority considered "foreigner" be able to do so?

Most Ashkenazi Jews in the Netherlands arrived relatively late and came from
German- and French-speaking parts, aside from East Europeans many of them
used uvular /r/ in Yiddish.

I believe that the leveling of /r/ and *ghayn* in North African Jewish
Arabic is due to French-inspired "affectation" in French colonies. (Most new
North African immigrants I met in Israel tried their best to pass as
French.) Jews of Egypt (once a British colony) do not use a uvular sound for
/r/.

The uvular articulation of /r/ in Modern Hebrew clearly belongs to strong
European adstrata.

The voiced uvular fricative is most definitely not associated with /r/ in
the Semitic languages. In pre-modern Hebrew and in Judeo-Aramaic it is the
pronunciation of "soft" *gimel* (ג), in non-Jewish Aramaic with "soft" *
gamal* (ܓ), in Arabic with *ghayn* (غ), and in Maltese it doesn't seem to
exist.

I rather think that the spread of uvular /r/ in Europe emanated from French
via the French craze in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 16 01:57:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:57:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (07) [E]
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From: Paul Tatum <ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (05) [E]

Hello Ron et al,
you wrote:

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
>

 I believe that the leveling of /r/ and /ghayn/ in North African Jewish
> Arabic is due to French-inspired "affectation" in French colonies. (Most new
> North African immigrants I met in Israel tried their best to pass as
> French.) Jews of Egypt (once a British colony) do not use a uvular sound for
> /r/.
>

 I rather think that the spread of uvular /r/ in Europe emanated from French
> via the French craze in the 17th and 18th centuries.
>

I sometimes think that discussing the distribution of different
pronunciations of a single sound (I don't want to say 'phoneme', because a
sound is only a phoneme within a given context) across areas is problematic.
In this case, do your theories have to explain every area of uvular or
apical pronunciation as having its origins due to the influence of some
other area? How do you distinguish between pronunciation which is
'indiginous' from pronunciation which is 'borrowed'? Is the idea that a
craze for a culture should influence the speech of common people a little
far-fetched? I mean OK, a lot of English people say 'garage' with the French
voiced fricative /Z/ for the second [g], but that is a foreign phoneme, but
replacing /r/ with /R/ in native words across the board seems, well,
implausible. Is there any evidence this has ever happened in any language?

Paul Tatum.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Hi, Paul!

It's been a while.

All good points you raised I think.

Well, how about areal features then? A linguistic feature (which can be a
sound) spreads over a certain geographic area irrespective of boundaries
between languages and language families. Striking examples outside Europe
are the use of glottalized stop consonants from Alaska to Northern
California and the affricate /tɬ/ (the affricate equivalent of Welsh "ll")
occurring uninterruptedly in unrelated languages from Alaska to Tierra del
Fuego, and in southeastern Asia where unrelated languages share ingressive
labials and unreleased final stops.

Areal features spread through contacts and multilingualism, including
intermarriage.

Any feature can be preserved as a part of a substratum or it can be
introduced as a part of an adstratum, and this includes articulation.

An example of feature preservation is the case of tonality in peripheral
Bengali dialects with Tibeto-Burman substrata. Conversely, an example of
feature loss is the absence of tones in Mandarin and Tibetan varieties that
overlap with Altaic languages in Western China.

Acquisition of features very often involves prestige, and these days much of
that is being promoted by formal education and the mass media. People will
switch to a different sort of articulation of a phoneme if this is
considered desirable. How else would you explain the rapid spread of the
uvular /r/ in the Netherlands, especially in the Randstad area, the
"happenin' place"? How else would you explain that my mother and her
children belonged to the vanguard group using the uvular /r/ in their place
and social class? How else would you explain non-rhoticism replacing
rhoticism in Southern England, as explained by "the other Paul"?
Non-rhoticism became prestigious because it predominated among Southeastern
England's gentry and intelligentsia. In the USA, on the other land,
non-rhoticism in New England, New York and the Southeast is rapidly giving
way to rhoticism, because rhoticism is nationally predominant and
prestigious.

In 17th- and 18th-century Europe outside France, many members of the gentry
and would-be gentry were so much in love with French that many of switched
to French as a default medium with their like-minded peers. Some of them
even faked French accents when they spoke the actual languages of their
areas. The then prestigious "Saxon" German dialect of Meissen had or
acquired the uvular /r/ at the time. It caught on in other cities, such as
Leipzig and Dresden, also in Berlin, Prussia's power center in which the
(now extinct) local Southeastern Low Saxon dialects soon gave way to the
types of Missingsch (= Meissenisch) we now know as "Berlinerisch". For a
while, the rest of Northern Germany remained largely Low-Saxon-speaking in
rural and semi-rural areas as well as in lower urban classes. In most places
it was only the "better" social classes that were totally German-centered,
and this includes educators, especially those in tertiary education, in part
because academics were often hired over long distances, and German was the
natural lingua franca in German-centered learning. As I mentioned before,
pretty much all locally raised old people that I knew as a child in Hamburg
still used the apical /r/, even those that could no longer speak Low Saxon
or spoke it poorly. Those using the apical /r/ in Hamburg now are few and
far between. All right. I may seem old to some, but I ain't *that* old. So
we are talking about pretty rapid spread here.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 16 14:37:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:37:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.16.JUN.2008.073741.0700.>

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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (06) [E]

From: wim Verdoold
Zwolle city, netherlands

wkv at home.nl.

Or to ad to the confusion..

*Mihi ignosce. Cum homine de cane debeo congredi.*

Wim.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 16 14:43:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:43:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (02) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (05) [E]

But I didn't say that the spread of uvular R was due to Jewish
transmission, only that the Jews were almost without exception uvular r
speakers in non uvular environment, such as the Pre War Netherlands,
arabic countries, Italia, Russia, Poland etc.
Isn't it a bit strange to suppose that e.g. Yiddish would be influenced
more by French pronunciation than other European languages at this point?
And supposing the fact that Maghribi Jews (Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia) also
used the uvular R is from French too?
So, why didn't the latter have [y] for [u] then, too, or [Z] for [dZ] in
Algeria, or nasal vowels?
Maybe the original Sephardic Jews from Portugal and Spain had an uvular R
too, still back from Palestine, when they went to the Maghreb. Present day
Portuguese has uvular R initially and when geminated, it almost sounds
like Spanish jota.
Btw I noticed that there is an interesting parallel between Spanish j =
[x] in Spain and [h] in Latin America, and Portuguese initial/double r [x]
in Portugal and [h] in Brasil.

Ingmar

Ingmar,

I would be surprised if the spread of uvular /r/ were due to Jewish
transmission (at least in place other than the Netherlands). How would a
largely despised minority considered "foreigner" be able to do so?

Most Ashkenazi Jews in the Netherlands arrived relatively late and came
from
German- and French-speaking parts, aside from East Europeans many of them
used uvular /r/ in Yiddish.

I believe that the leveling of /r/ and *ghayn* in North African Jewish
Arabic is due to French-inspired "affectation" in French colonies. (Most
new
North African immigrants I met in Israel tried their best to pass as
French.) Jews of Egypt (once a British colony) do not use a uvular sound
for
/r/.

The uvular articulation of /r/ in Modern Hebrew clearly belongs to strong
European adstrata.

The voiced uvular fricative is most definitely not associated with /r/ in
the Semitic languages. In pre-modern Hebrew and in Judeo-Aramaic it is the
pronunciation of "soft" *gimel* (×'), in non-Jewish Aramaic with "soft" *
gamal* (Ü"), in Arabic with *ghayn* (غ), and in Maltese it doesn't seem to
exist.

I rather think that the spread of uvular /r/ in Europe emanated from French
via the French craze in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (07) [E]

On that note, the English dialect here in Milwaukee very commonly uses
a uvular approximant for /r/ (and sometimes a weak voiced uvular
fricative), except after coronals, where it uses a postalveolar
approximant more typical of North American English dialects. Of
course, this is not the addition of any new phonemes but rather the
wholesale replacement of the original NAE realization of /r/ in most
positions. For myself, a uvular approximant is the default rhotic
except after coronals, even though I am not sure if it is quite as
consistent amongst everyone here (as there are greatly varying levels
of General American influence here). As such is a very atypical
feature for an NAE dialect, but at the same time I have heard of the
use of uvular rhotics being encountered sporadically over a relatively
wide area of the US, which makes me think that it very likely is a
substratum feature (particularly considering the substrata present in
this area).

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (07) [E]

Ron wrote:
I rather think that the spread of uvular /r/ in Europe emanated from French
via the French craze in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Elsie can probably put me sraight, but Transvalers often used to tell me
that Cape Afrikaans has its uvular /r/ because "they like to think they're
French".

Paul Finlow-Bates
----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

> Well, how about areal features then? A linguistic feature (which can be a
> sound) spreads over a certain geographic area irrespective of boundaries
> between languages and language families. Striking examples outside Europe
> are the use of glottalized stop consonants from Alaska to Northern
> California and the affricate /tɬ/ (the affricate equivalent of Welsh "ll")
> occurring uninterruptedly in unrelated languages from Alaska to Tierra del
> Fuego, and in southeastern Asia where unrelated languages share ingressive
> labials and unreleased final stops.
>
> Areal features spread through contacts and multilingualism, including
> intermarriage.
>
> Any feature can be preserved as a part of a substratum or it can be
> introduced as a part of an adstratum, and this includes articulation.
>
> An example of feature preservation is the case of tonality in peripheral
> Bengali dialects with Tibeto-Burman substrata. Conversely, an example of
> feature loss is the absence of tones in Mandarin and Tibetan varieties that
> overlap with Altaic languages in Western China.
>
> Acquisition of features very often involves prestige, and these days much
> of that is being promoted by formal education and the mass media. People
> will switch to a different sort of articulation of a phoneme if this is
> considered desirable. How else would you explain the rapid spread of the
> uvular /r/ in the Netherlands, especially in the Randstad area, the
> "happenin' place"? How else would you explain that my mother and her
> children belonged to the vanguard group using the uvular /r/ in their place
> and social class? How else would you explain non-rhoticism replacing
> rhoticism in Southern England, as explained by "the other Paul"?
> Non-rhoticism became prestigious because it predominated among Southeastern
> England's gentry and intelligentsia. In the USA, on the other land,
> non-rhoticism in New England, New York and the Southeast is rapidly giving
> way to rhoticism, because rhoticism is nationally predominant and
> prestigious.
>
> In 17th- and 18th-century Europe outside France, many members of the gentry
> and would-be gentry were so much in love with French that many of switched
> to French as a default medium with their like-minded peers. Some of them
> even faked French accents when they spoke the actual languages of their
> areas. The then prestigious "Saxon" German dialect of Meissen had or
> acquired the uvular /r/ at the time. It caught on in other cities, such as
> Leipzig and Dresden, also in Berlin, Prussia's power center in which the
> (now extinct) local Southeastern Low Saxon dialects soon gave way to the
> types of Missingsch (= Meissenisch) we now know as "Berlinerisch". For a
> while, the rest of Northern Germany remained largely Low-Saxon-speaking in
> rural and semi-rural areas as well as in lower urban classes. In most places
> it was only the "better" social classes that were totally German-centered,
> and this includes educators, especially those in tertiary education, in part
> because academics were often hired over long distances, and German was the
> natural lingua franca in German-centered learning. As I mentioned before,
> pretty much all locally raised old people that I knew as a child in Hamburg
> still used the apical /r/, even those that could no longer speak Low Saxon
> or spoke it poorly. Those using the apical /r/ in Hamburg now are few and
> far between. All right. I may seem old to some, but I ain't /that/ old. So
> we are talking about pretty rapid spread here.
>

All with you on this one Ron. This is how the "machine" works indeed. Call
it "prestige", "social promotion", "fashion"...whatever...homo sapiens is a
primate, a copycat after all *s*. What, where and how he copies is
altogether another matter...but copy he will. Even in this day and age of
"free thinkers", "freedom"...and "free" software :-D . By the way, chaotic,
random and eccentric behavior gets copied just as well.
Not even such a bad thing in my opinion, copying is the best tribute you can
ever make to "the master" (if ever there is one)...in the light of eternity
that is.

Mind you, I know that (some) human beings can do more than this...but the
first stage is always "recognition" and "copying" I think. When that
blueprint has been made, you can try thinking out of the box...but first
there has to be a box, not the other way round :-D .

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: This is probably a very "continental" point of view.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 16 15:14:53 2008
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:14:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (03) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.14 (02) [E]

Ron translated the instructions for producing a trilled R:

   - Gargling with a little water, head tilted back
   - The same exercise without water, perhaps with a little saliva; vocal
   chords must vibrate
   - Gargling with head tilted back, saying R while bringing head back up
   - R between two vowels: aaRaa, eeRee ...
   - In combination with a back consonant, preferably k: kRaa, kRee ...
   - The gradually omitting the kRaa, kRaa, Raa ..
   - Practicing the rest of the possible combinations and positions

Okay, so this morning I read the above in my cube here at work and began
practicing.  I had my iPod playing so I didn't realize how loud I
"practiced."  After a few minutes of this, a co-worked several cubes away
stood up and said, "Are you okay? I thought you were calling for help!"  I
had especially focused on the "kRaa" item.  After I stopped laughing, I
explained that I was practicing my French R.  Evidently I sounded like I was
choking to death!  They already think I'm excentric, now I suppose this
proves it.

Mark Brooks
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Good for you, Mark! Embrace and cherish your eccentricity! It's the key to a
type of freedom known as *Narrenfreiheit* ("jester's liberty").

Enjoy!

Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 17 00:04:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:04:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.16.JUN.2008.170451.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (04) [E]

> From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]
>
> Hello, everyone.
>
> Fred van Brederode brought up an interesting point when he wrote:
>
>
> "... what everyone does is not necessarily the right thing.
>
> The pronunciation of kilometer as kilometer is completely analogous
> with the pronunciation of words like barometer and thermometer. The
> analogy may be the very reason for it. Most words ending on …ometer
> however are instruments of measurement. For that reason one might
> rather think that a kilometer is an instrument for measuring kilo's,
> than a measure of distance.
> When indicating the distance of a thousand meters, a more proper
> pronunciation would probably be: kilometer, stressing the first
> syllable. We do the same thing with kilobytes when a thousand bytes
> are meant. Why change it when it comes to meters?

I consistently say "micrOmeter" for the engineering instrument for
measuring small widths, but would say "mIcrometre" if I were talking
about a millionth of a metre.

Similarly, I would say "kilOmetre" for a distance that you might
visualise in studying a map or figuring out how far we still have to
walk to reach a destination, but "kIlometres" for engineering
measurements where the distance is seen as being built up from metres.

The idea that the emphasis is different depending on whether the
qualifiers increase or decrease the units doesn't seem to me to work.
KIlograms, tEraflops etc.

However, I'd still say mIcroscope, tElescope, mIcrowave and so on, so
not much consistency with micrOmeter. Perhaps the pronunciation of
micrometer is such as to avoid confusion with micrometre?

I'm not sure what the significance of my way of spelling the word
sometimes as "meter" and sometimes as "metre" is! Is a metre the unit of
measurement and a meter a measuring device?

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 17 14:11:05 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:11:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.17 (01) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (04) [E]

Isn't "metre" in English just 100 cm, and "meter" a measuring device?

For us Dutch speakers it is different, we have one word "meter":

the verb "meten" means to measure, so a "meter" is a measurer, someone or
something that measures. Just like "kopen" is to buy, a "koper" is a
buyer, "zien" is to see, and a "ziener" is a seer.
A "meter" is a metre/meter, too, that is an unrelated word etymologically,
but the to sound just alike and in the perception of people, they are
closely related.

There's a third Dutch "meter" meaning godmother.

Ingmar

Sandy Fleming wrote:
I'm not sure what the significance of my way of spelling the word
sometimes as "meter" and sometimes as "metre" is! Is a metre the unit of
measurement and a meter a measuring device?

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (04) [E]

Sandy asked:  "I'm not sure what the significance of my way of spelling the
wordsometimes as "meter" and sometimes as "metre" is! Is a metre the unit of
measurement and a meter a measuring device?"

I always attributed the difference to US and British spelling systems.  But,
perhaps, you have discerned something new.

Mark Brooks

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 18 19:11:30 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:11:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (01) [E]
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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

Ron you wrote:
In American English, "to go to the bathroom" is used so commonly that it no
longer needs to refer to a trip or visit but can refer to the actual act of
excretion; such as in "I'm sick and tired of the neighbor's dog going to the
bathroom on our front lawn" or "Little Billie went to the bathroom in the
swimming pool."

 This brings back a story from my early twenties when I worked as a
counsellor in a US summer camp in Pennsylvania. We were in a division (it
was a large camp) for ages 6-12. During the evenings we took turns for OD
(on duty). It so happened that my turn came pretty soon. The section of camp
that I "OD-ed" consisted of several small wooden bunks, each one housing
about 12 boys. The OD had a seat at a table in front of one. The table was
conveniently situated under a lamppost so we could read.

All of a sudden there was a shouting coming from one of the bunks: "ODEE,
ODEE". I immediately got up, aware of my duty I entered the bunk. "What is
the matter?" I said. One of the boys answered out of the dark: "I need to go
to the bathroom". I had no idea what this actually meant, I felt rather
disturbed in my reading activities. So I said out of sincere astonishment:
"why is that, all you guys just had a shower?" Camp rule made it clear to
shower before going to bed. The other boys came to his assist: "please OD he
really needs to". The bathroom was outside the bunk, which was quite a
nuisance. Nevertheless I quickly figured out that it was best to let the boy
go, whatever he needed to go to the bathroom for.

It was until I told my American fellow counsellors about the incident that I
found out what "going to the bathroom" means for an American.

The camp I was in had many overseas counsellors, most of them from Britain.
For reasons of convenience I was soon enlisted by the British. I gratefully
joined them in laughing about the silly American accent and expressions. The
bathroom was one of them. I remember that we were astonished once again by
the word "restroom". Someone had read in a leaflet that long distance busses
in the US had small restrooms. What a great service, the bus company
provides us with a room where you can lay down on a long journey. Again the
misunderstanding did not last long. The astonishment stayed: Americans say
anything to avoid the word toilet.

Probably very old as well, but I noticed it only recently: "half bathroom"
in a real estate add. Yes anything but the t-word.
Groetjes,  Fred van Brederode

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks a lot, Fred.

There are lots and lots of such stories, especially about Americans being
directed to bathrooms without toilets or to rooms with daybeds or couches.

Actually, many US Americans do use the word "toilet," but with a different
meaning: the actual toilet "throne" inside the ... bathroom or "half
bathroom." The room itself is not called "toilet" by most Americans.
However, some people avoid "toilet" in this sense as well ans say "commode"
instead (e.g. There's a sink and a commode in the half bathroom").

The polite US American word for the room in which a toilet is found tends to
be "bathroom" if it is in a private home and "restroom" if it is a public
facility. In Canada I see and hear mostly "washroom" used. In old-fashioned,
posh American restrooms, such as in theaters, you still find anterooms with
couches and easy chairs for resting, at least in women's restrooms. So there
is a connection. Many of these even have things like shoe-polishing
machines, and some men's versions still have full-length mirrors next to
their exits, some of which have attached to them signs saying things like
"Gentlemen, for your convenience" or "Gentlemen, your attire" to give you a
last chance to "batten down the hatch," if you catch my meaning! So we are
talking about vestiges of Belle Époque comfort here, not something to
summarize coarsely.

So, when US Americans and Canadians travel to other countries, signs saying
"toilets" or some recognizable cognates of it seem a bit crass or simply
strange because they associate with it not rooms but what is installed
there. But of course Canadians are far more exposed to non-American English
and thus don't miss a beat when they hear "toilets." They are also more
likely to switch to using the word "toilet" themselves once they arrive in
Britain for instance.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 18 22:06:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:06:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.18 (02) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Projects

Dear Lowlanders,

Last week I wrote:

I am sure I am not the only one here that has noticed a good deal of
interest and knowledge in history among us. This has led me to think it
would be good to showcase some of this as long as it is relevant to the
Lowlands. So I am proposing another web series with historical information,
such as in article ranging from very brief blurbs to lengthy essays, also
including things like photographs, drawings, paintings, maps and music, with
or without accompanying text. Of interest would be for instance the
Hanseatic network topic we've talked about. Also, it would be nice to post
some interesting and relevant historical documents.

Later we discussed the scope and the title, and, as usual, I tried to
"enthuse" you into pitching in.

Let it not be said that I don't whip these things out quickly these days! *
Voilà!* The history site is ready and receptive:

http://lowlands-l.net/history/

So far it contains only one new article (Arthur's) among a few cross-posted
adaptations from previously published articles. I am still waiting for
permission to cross-post other articles. I know of one new article that is
definitely in the making.

Please consider sending us some goodies for this. It doesn't have to be
anything long or spectacular. As for suitable material, please read my
explanations and suggestions on the index page and on the page calling for
submissions:

http://lowlands-l.net/history/
http://lowlands-l.net/history/submission.php

You may send submissions (n any language), comments, suggestions and
corrections to me personally (sassisch at yahoo.com) under "History" or "Water
under The Bridge".

Also, please think about the other proposed web project and what you can do
for it: a presentation of all manner of Lowlands folklore (mythology,
legends, folktales, customs, taboos, rituals, folk wisdom, aphorisms, poems,
songs etc.). Again, no long epistles are required. A single paragraph, a
picture ... Fine! Again in any language.

And we need to come up with a title for it. Again I propose that we use a
combination of a catchy, intriguing main title and an explanatory subtitle.
My first suggestions:

*Kabouters, Ghost Ships, and Sinterklaas*
Folk traditions of the Lowlands
*Kabouters, Mad Meg, and Sinterklaas
*Folk traditions of the Lowlands

*Kabouters, Mad Meg, and Jan van Hunks' Soul
*Folk traditions of the Lowlands

*Klabautermann, Mad Meg, and Jan van Hunks' Soul
*Folk traditions of the Lowlands

*Goblins, Rip Van Winkle, and Jan van Hunks' Soul
*Folk traditions of the Lowlands

... or any other such combinations, as long as it has the right sound and
rhythm.

Mention of these (or other) examples of "typical" features of Lowlands
traditions are supposed to entice people in. (Should that be the derivative
"Santa Claus" instead of the original "Sinterklaas"?)

Kabouters are the Little Folk. "Mad Meg" is the equivalent of "Dulle Griet".
The Dutch pirate Jan van Hunks, whose soul the devil took on Tabletop
Mountain, provides a nice link to South Africa. The Klabautermann is a North
German goblins that haunts ships, oftentimes heralding the arrival of the
dreaded Flying Dutchman. Rip Van Winkle is a North American fiction figure
but alludes to Dutch colonial times, and it is connected with other such
traditions (e.g. the German Karl Katz, the Jewish חוני המעגל Honi HaM'agel,
Eastern Asia's 爛柯 Lànkē/Ranka, the Syriac Christian Seven Sleepers, and so
forth.

Are there any other title suggestions?

And happy Vesak to those of you to whom this means something!

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 18 22:10:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:10:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (03) [E]
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (01) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Fred wrote about euphenisms for "toilet/ lavatory" and it reminded me of a
sad story I read long ago.

One of the first ships to leave Singapore as the Japanese advanced, and
which was carrying women and children, was torpedoed and sunk. The adults
who survived gathered up as many children as possible and as they drifted to
shore tried to keep up their spirits. This story was related by an
Australian nurse who along with half a dozen children was clinging to a
large piece of wood. One little girl said to the nurse. "I want to go
upstairs" and the nurse  misunderstanding the meaning, explained that they
would soon be safely on shore and that they would able to go to sleep then.
" No" said the little girl, " I need to go upstairs" and the poor lamb kept
repeating her request. Eventually another  child explained that " She wants
to do a no. 1" At last the nurse understood and explained that as they were
in the water, it would be quite alright for her just to 'go' there and then.
But the poor child so trained in her habits wouldn't ( or couldn't) 'go'
until she had been helped into pulling her knickers down.

Sad such habits that we breed into our children.

Heather

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 18 22:59:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:59:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.18 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.18.JUN.2008.155954.0700.>

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (01) [E]

Americans also use the terms "men's room", "ladies' room", and, in schools,
"boys' room" and "girls' room".  Sometimes we call it the lavatory (which
technically is a place where you wash up, or even just a sink, but it
extends to the whole room).  Then there are slang terms like john, can, pot,
and head, or children's slang like potty and toity.  To me, a toilet is the
actual fixture (also called a commode), not the room it is in.

Ron, why are suddenly writing "US Americans"?  I think most people
understand "Americans" to refer to people from the United States of *America
*.

Kevin Caldwell
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Names

Hi, Kevin!

The short answer: too many complaints.

Most of these complaints come from Latin Americans, and some Canadians have
told me they dislike it also. The usual argument is that they are all
Americans.

Some complain about "United States" without "of America" as well. There is
another united states country: Mexico (*Estados Unidos Mexicanos, Mēxihcatl
Tlacetilīlli Tlahtohcāyōtl*).

Many see this "name monopoly" as symptomatic of US American dominance,
"arrogance" and the rest of it.

Such voices of dissent are much more audible these days because of direct
global communication and electronic international gatherings like ours.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 14:11:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:11:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.19 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.071107.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.18 (04) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, I appreciate you writing 'US Americans'.

We have the same trend here in South Africa that the country and its people
are referred to as 'America' and 'Americans', which is rather myopic
and limiting.

Elsie

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 16:00:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:00:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.19 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.090036.0700.>

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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

Dear Ron, Denis and the rest,

Ron wrote:


> All of these phrases belong to the large category of euphemisms. Euphemisms
> can be single words or whole phrases. They are a type of "doublespeak."
> These particular types belong to the narrower category of indirections, i.e.
> indirect references to something that for some reason or other ought not be
> said. Furthermore, they are of the jocular and nonsensical types. It's not
> actually a case of hidden meaning, since people know what the meaning is.


In the 1920's my father had a Chinese roommate, who was invited to dinner by
some very wealthy folks. Dad and other students gave him a quickie course on
American etiquette, such as "If they ask you if you wish to wash your hands,
it's an opportunity to relieve yourself." What they forgot to mention was
that Americans expected guests to be on time, never very early or late.

He arrived almost an hour early, to find the hostess in the midst of
preparations and the host not yet home from work, She dispatched him to
amuse himself in their extremely fancy, ornamental garden. When she called
him in and asked if he would like to "wash his hands," he replied, "Oh, no
thank you, madame, I already took care of that in the garden.

One evening in the 50s, with only a smattering of French, I found myself in
a Montreal home and had to relieve myself. When I asked for the "bain," a
big family discussion ensued, none of which was understood by me. Finally
they ushered me into a small room with a bathtub and a washbowl, only.

As ever,

Jorge Potter

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 16:28:43 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:28:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.092843.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Projects

Folks,

Yesterday I announced the start of our new history presentation (
http://lowlands-l.net/history/), and then I tried to come up with a fancy
title for the planned folklore presentation.

After a lengthy debate with myself (since no one else will debate with poor
little me) I decided that a less fancy title would be more appropriate. How
about the following?

*Things They Left Us*
Folk traditions of the Lowlands worldwide

I kind of like it, at least at the moment. It's nice and all-inclusive.

Any reactions or ideas?

By the way, with his permission I added Jonny's article about Hadeln and the
old Saxons to the history presentation.

I count on contributions to the new and old presentations.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 17:22:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:22:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.102251.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.19 (02) [E]

A couple more euphemisms for toilet:

facilities – as in, "I need to use the facilities" or "Could you direct me
to your facilities?"

loo – supposedly from French "lieu" (place), or possibly from "l'eau"
(water). This term isn't used that much by Americans. It can be used
humorously by saying that you need to "skip to the loo" (a pun on the song,
"Skip to My Lou").

We have a joke in my family about "rest areas" (roadside areas on major
highways with restrooms and, usually, picnic tables, dog walk areas, etc.).
Whenever we see a sign saying, "Rest Area, 1 Mile," the driver will ask,
"Does anyone need to rest their area?"

Kevin Caldwell

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

Dear Ron, Denis and the rest,

Ron wrote:

All of these phrases belong to the large category of euphemisms. Euphemisms
can be single words or whole phrases. They are a type of "doublespeak."
These particular types belong to the narrower category of indirections, i.e.
indirect references to something that for some reason or other ought not be
said. Furthermore, they are of the jocular and nonsensical types. It's not
actually a case of hidden meaning, since people know what the meaning is.

 In the 1920's my father had a Chinese roommate, who was invited to dinner
by some very wealthy folks. Dad and other students gave him a quickie
course on American etiquette, such as "If they ask you if you wish to wash
your hands, it's an opportunity to relieve yourself." What they forgot to
mention was that Americans expected guests to be on time, never very early
or late.

He arrived almost an hour early, to find the hostess in the midst of
preparations and the host not yet home from work, She dispatched him to
amuse himself in their extremely fancy, ornamental garden. When she called
him in and asked if he would like to "wash his hands," he replied, "Oh, no
thank you, madame, I already took care of that in the garden.

One evening in the 50s, with only a smattering of French, I found myself in
a Montreal home and had to relieve myself. When I asked for the "bain," a
big family discussion ensued, none of which was understood by me. Finally
they ushered me into a small room with a bathtub and a washbowl, only.

As ever,

Jorge Potter
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 18:22:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:22:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.112212.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>  Subject: Projects
[...]
> After a lengthy debate with myself (since no one else will
> debate with poor
> little me) I decided that a less fancy title would be more
> appropriate. How
> about the following?
>
> *Things They Left Us*
> Folk traditions of the Lowlands worldwide

Hi,

Oh, little poor me, feeling forced to react to the great Kahuna:
The title should have a verb [preferably expressing activity] and a question
mark [?].
Don't be shy, Kahuna, you're on the right path.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Thanks, poor little Theo ... but I don't follow.

"Things They Left Us" is supposed to mean "(some) things (that/which) they
(have) left us (= bequeathed/handed down to us)" ("dingen die zij aan ons
hebben nagelaten/vermaakt/overleverd"). It is not a sentence but a noun
phrase.

Oh, and the Kahuna (http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) isn't
involved in these projects. He's not that creative, is more of an observer
and figure head.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 19:40:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:40:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.19 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.124049.0700.>

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From: From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Below is a link to a video recording of a German TV documentary about
agricultural challenges and flood defenses. The two men in it speak Eastern
Friesland Low Saxon, and there are German subtitles.

http://tinyurl.com/4vxjpt

This offers you a chance to listen to genuine, old-time, natively spoken Low
Saxon of that region, specifically near Emden and the border with Groningen.
These may be members of the last generation of speakers of such varieties
with litte German influence. Those varieties have East Frisian substrata.
The phonology is considerably different from "mainstream" Northern Low Saxon
of Germany, is closer to Groningen varieties west of the Netherlands-German
border. For one thing, they are rhotic (i.e. "pronounce final /r/"), though
varieties spoken farther east in Eastern Friesland are non-rhotic.

For speakers of other Low Saxon varieties of Germany, the gentleman in the
boat is fairly easy to understand, while the other gentleman, the one doing
most of the talking, is quite difficult to understand (certainly without the
subtitles), in part because he speaks to fast.

We have an Eastern Friesland Low Saxon translation of the wren story as
well, and it comes with an audio recording. This is a non-rhotic variety.

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/contents.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 19:43:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:43:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.06.19 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.124326.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.19 (02) [E]

Dear all,

Having an evening "off" wall anchors, I call to mind an old saying or poem,
that I first came across as a child (eek! years ago) and was amazed not to
find it on google .. and also wonder if it is a 'lowlands' meme.

It goes ...
A life time to learn to plough, another to reap, another to sow.

(sowing and reaping in the wrong order?).

I have a feeling that 'another to brew, another to bake' forms part of it.
Perhaps other crafts too.

Cheers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 15:11:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:11:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.081111.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Projects

> "Things They Left Us" is supposed to mean
> "(some) things (that/which) they
> (have) left us (= bequeathed/handed down to us)"
> ("dingen die zij aan ons
> hebben nagelaten/vermaakt/overleverd"). It is not a
> sentence but a noun
> phrase.

Ah, I meant to say: an ideal title.
Sorry.
vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (03) [E]

I like it!
Paul F-B

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Thanks, Theo and Paul!

This makes the three of us the clear majority.

Enjoy your weekend!

Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 16:06:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:06:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.20 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.090609.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.19 (06) [E]

From: From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Below is a link to a video recording of a German TV documentary about
> agricultural challenges and flood defenses. The two men in it speak Eastern
> Friesland Low Saxon, and there are German subtitles.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/4vxjpt
>
> This offers you a chance to listen to genuine, old-time, natively spoken
> Low Saxon of that region, specifically near Emden and the border with
> Groningen. These may be members of the last generation of speakers of such
> varieties with litte German influence. Those varieties have East Frisian
> substrata. The phonology is considerably different from "mainstream"
> Northern Low Saxon of Germany, is closer to Groningen varieties west of the
> Netherlands-German border. For one thing, they are rhotic (i.e. "pronounce
> final /r/"), though varieties spoken farther east in Eastern Friesland are
> non-rhotic.
>
> For speakers of other Low Saxon varieties of Germany, the gentleman in the
> boat is fairly easy to understand, while the other gentleman, the one doing
> most of the talking, is quite difficult to understand (certainly without the
> subtitles), in part because he speaks to fast.
>
>  Wo du dor vun schriffst: Op de plattdüütsche Wikipedia sammel ik
Websteden, op de sik een Plattdüütsch anhöörn kann: <
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Platt_anh%C3%B6%C3%B6rn> (is dat
Tofall, dat du hier vun dit Video schriffst? Is jüst twee Daag her, dat ik
dat Video in de List indragen harr). Blot een Dialekt fehlt mi dor noch
kumplett: Märkisch/Brannenborgsch. Op all de groten Videosieden (YouTube,
Myvideo, Clipfish un wat dat allens geven mag...): nix. Sogor op de Websteed
to dat "Lautdenkmal reichsdeutscher Mundarten", de allerhand Dialekten hett,
fehlt jüst dat Brannenborgsche kumplett. Nich een enkelt Woord
Brannenborgsch kunn ik op't Internett finnen. Rein gor nix.
Hett dor villicht een en Tipp, wo ik wat finnen kann?

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dat was heel un deel Tofall, Marcus.

I get a message that access is denied to "your country" when I click on this
link: Herbstlied<http://www.clipfish.de/player.php?videoid=NzQzOTk5fDEzMjQwNDU%3D>

Noch wat:
Dat Leed "De Moel" is vun Klaus Groth (http://lowlands-l.net/groth/moel.htm),
man Hannes Wader hett de Musik schräven.
De Schakel na Karl-Heinz Groth sien Vertellen is dood.

Well, Marcus, and as for the songs from Schleswig/Sleswig/Slesvig, does this
mean that Low Saxon *is* still used on Danish soil? I have written to the
owner of that Danish site to tell him that Low Saxon is not a "German
language type" as it is called there.

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.19 (06) [E]

 Beste Lowlanners, Ron,

Ron sent this link:

http://tinyurl.com/4vxjpt

and wrote:

> For speakers of other Low Saxon varieties of Germany, the gentleman in the
boat is fairly easy to understand, while the other gentleman, the > one
doing most of the talking, is quite difficult to understand (certainly
without the subtitles), in part because he speaks to fast.

I fully agree, though I am (was?) quite familiar with his dialect. But I
fear I even won't understand him if he would speak Standard German in the
same 'quality' ;-) It's not only his speed that makes him nearly unreadable
but also his nasty habit to speak without any interruption ('ohne Punkt und
Komma'). I remember some people in our region doing the same (today fewer
than in my youth), and they mostly had had bad language education, both by
their parents as well as by school. And one more reason: due to their place
of work many of them havn't got much opportunity to speak, such as a tractor
driver etc.; hence they don't get much communicational feedback from other
people throughout their lives.

Regarding the speed (we've had this thread some years ago, as far as I
remember) it seems to me that there can be determined a West-East incline in
the LS-areas; e.g. Dutch people speak faster than (North-)Western Germans,
and our Easterners in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern slower than the people from
Hamburg (though 'Hamburger Reesbüdels' [= 'a sack which is talking
volubly'] are proverbial- attendants explicitly excluded *s*).

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 15:03:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:03:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.080319.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (03) [E]

Speaking of euphemisms (as opposed to going in the OTHER direction and
getting sonwright scatalogical, which Americans of MY generation, at least,
are also prone to) for the "t'" word:
(and sorry if I duplicate any that have already been covered; I have been
too busy to go through all recent Lowlands mails yet)

see a man about a horse

And in MY house, we have adopted a cute expression from when my son was 3
years old and we were living in Adana, Turkey:

poopaja(ğı)m / peeyeje(ği)m = I am going (Turkish 1st sg future tense form)
to poop / pee (I use the English spelelings for the roots)

PS Here in Bombay, one almost always sees some expression about "doing the
needful" at the end of letters (usually directing you the reader of the
letter to take the appropriate actition). Some non-Indian English speakers
find this expression quite "cute"; I always have a problem with it (and when
i use it "I will do the needful" i am ALWAYS a being at least a bit
sarcastic ... though that is probably lost on the recipient).

Anyway, Russian for "doing one's business" is :
идти по нужде /idti po nuZde/ to go according to need = go to the toilet

So maybe next time I have to go to the tolet here, I will say that I need to
"do the needful" ... and THAT will leave them wondering!

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 17:17:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:17:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.20 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.101714.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.19 (01) [E]

Elsie said: "Ron, I appreciate you writing 'US Americans'."

Yes, I try to stay sensitive to folks from Latin America when I participate
in forums or chats in Spanish that involve people from Spanish speaking
America.  When they ask where I come from I say that I am an
"estadounidense" (united-stateser)  They always laugh or joke with me for
using that word.  I think it sounds kind of pretentious and they usually
seem surprised (pleasantly) by it.  The word that they use is generally
"americano" or "norteamericano".  Norteamericano (North American) doesn't
quite do it either, because that includes Canadians, Mexicans, and US
Americans which they mean to include only the US variety.  That's why I
think estadounidense works pretty well.  However, technically that could
apply to Mexicans as well.  What's a guy to do?

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.19 (01) [E]

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
> Ron, I appreciate you writing 'US Americans'.
>

Oops. *I* (mis?)read it as Ron having included himself into the citizenry of
the country he has adopted i(.e. the one I left 30 years ago to become
Asian!)  ...with emphasis indicated by capital letters : *US* Americans ;-)

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Indeed, Mike, indeed.

"Asian"? I call it "Eurasian", which means that you and I have two in
common. Not that this is a competition, but I'm one ahead: Australian.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 18:24:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:24:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.112407.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (02) [E]

 Beste Ron,

just to rough up your (un-)holy trinity *s*...

How would you think about "Language Is History- History Is Language"? Or
isn't it not my own idea, at last? Did I read it anywhere in your
proposals/conceptions??

Just to give you a well deserved feedback and to...- see above!

Nice weekend, dito!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects.

Thanks, Jonny. Not bad. It's probably you that came up with it.

But what to do with it? It looks as though we are talking about two
projects.

I can see it as a "wise sayings" vignette on the index page of the history
project (http://lowlands-l.net/history/).

The title Theo, Paul and I are talking about is for the folk traditions
project. Not all folk traditions involve language, at least not directly.
Included is material culture, beliefs and rituals, such as visual arts,
crafts, celebrations, beliefs, customs, tools, architecture, clothing,
games, etc., aside from sayings, rhymes, songs, stories, and other types of
oral traditions.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 05:51:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:51:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.225112.0700.>

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (04) [E]

OK how's about the simple "History, Culture,  & Traditions" ?
On 21/06/2008, at 4:24 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

The title Theo, Paul and I are talking about is for the folk traditions
project. Not all folk traditions involve language, at least not directly.
Included is material culture, beliefs and rituals, such as visual arts,
crafts, celebrations, beliefs, customs, tools, architecture, clothing,
games, etc., aside from sayings, rhymes, songs, stories, and other types of
oral traditions.


Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane AUSTRALIA
An honest man's the noblest work of God
Robert Burns

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lowlands-L "Projects" 2008.20.06

Hi Lowlanders,

I only now got round to looking at the background page for the new "History"
project, aka "Water under the Bridge", or "Look at What they Left us in" or
"A Sluice of Life".
Joking aside, I was really moved by Ron's artistry and with the loving care
he put into the text and illustrations. It conveys a true richness of
heritage, a colourful pageant of unique lowlands history. Very inspiring.
Thanks, Ron.

mvg,

Arthur

ARTHUR A. JONES

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Thanks, Tom and Arthur.

Thanks also for the compliments, Arthur, which I return with respect to your
contribution at the new history site (http://lowlands-l.net/history/).

OK, I suspect some of you out there are confused. So please listen carefully
this time, boys and girls!

There are *TWO (2)* new presentations in the making.

The first is already accessible, well connected and receptive:

*Water under The Bridge*
Things past but not forgotten—
History of the Lowlands worldwide
http://lowlands-l.net/history/

This is a done deal and is solely devoted to *history*, though much of it
does and will overlap and will be cross-posted with works displayed in the
Gallery and in the Travel Guide.

Please read the introduction and the submissions page to get ideas.

The *following, separate *presentation will be devoted to *folk traditions*.
It is not yet accessible but should be shortly. I have begun putting it
together, and it will be most beauteous to behold, if I may say so myself
;-) , with an antique, folksy and somewhat whimsical twist on the same basic
design of the entire series.

I have already finished the top banner:

*Things They Left Us*
Folk traditions of the Lowlands worldwide

I will tell you when the doors are open to this one. You may already begin
sending in submissions for this one, anything from short paragraphs to *bona
fide *journal article. Suitable topics include the following, all with the
word "traditional" in front of them:

   - holidays, festivals and rituals
   - customs
   - taboos
   - architecture
   - foods
   - superstitions
   - sayings, proverbs, aphorisms
   - farmers' wisdom
   - divining, healing, soothsaying
   - color, plant and animal symbolisms
   - music, musical instruments, song, dance
   - arts, crafts, tools
   - costumes, fabrics, needle work, etc.

And this is merely a selection off the top of my head. Written material may
include personal memories and the like. Local, regional, national ... they
are all of interest. You don't need to limit this to your own traditions but
may present accounts of your encounters with other Lowlands-related
traditions. Besides written material you may send in lists, facsimiles,
photographs, maps, drawings, paintings, audio files, sheet music and video
clips -- all as long as there are no copyright problems. You retain
copyright to your own works, merely give us permission to display them.

Now that sounds really exciting, doesn't it? I know that many of you are
into this sort of thing. We've already discussed lots of these things over
the years.

So get cracking, dear people!

Thanks!

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 05:53:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:53:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.225338.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2008 - Volume 06
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]

Mike's post reminds me of another euphemism in English for "toilet": the
necessary.

Kevin Caldwell

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (03) [E]

PS Here in Bombay, one almost always sees some expression about "doing the
needful" at the end of letters (usually directing you the reader of the
letter to take the appropriate actition). Some non-Indian English speakers
find this expression quite "cute"; I always have a problem with it (and when
i use it "I will do the needful" i am ALWAYS a being at least a bit
sarcastic ... though that is probably lost on the recipient).

Anyway, Russian for "doing one's business" is :

идти по нужде /idti po nuZde/ to go according to need = go to the toilet
 So maybe next time I
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 17:37:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:37:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.103751.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Dear Lowlanders,

Last night I wrote about the up-and-coming project:

*Things They Left Us*
Folk traditions of the Lowlands worldwide

I will tell you when the doors are open to this one. You may already begin
sending in submissions for this one, anything from short paragraphs to *bona
fide *journal article. Suitable topics include the following, all with the
word "traditional" in front of them:

   - holidays, festivals and rituals
   - customs
   - taboos
   - architecture
   - foods
   - superstitions
   - sayings, proverbs, aphorisms
   - farmers' wisdom
   - divining, healing, soothsaying
   - color, plant and animal symbolisms
   - music, musical instruments, song, dance
   - arts, crafts, tools
   - costumes, fabrics, needle work, etc.

And this is merely a selection off the top of my head. Written material may
include personal memories and the like. Local, regional, national ... they
are all of interest. You don't need to limit this to your own traditions but
may present accounts of your encounters with other Lowlands-related
traditions. Besides written material you may send in lists, facsimiles,
photographs, maps, drawings, paintings, audio files, sheet music and video
clips -- all as long as there are no copyright problems. You retain
copyright to your own works, merely give us permission to display them.

And silly me forgot to mention an important category:

   - *tales, fables. legends*

Don't forget about two types of these: bedside stories and spooky stories.
These are very popular, meaning that people out there look for them to put
their kids to sleep or to scare them.

And as a part of "myths" if you will:

   - *mythical figures*

And last but most likely not least, another important category we have
discussed many times:

   - *games*

This is assuming they are traditional rather than newly invented.

I am likely to think of more categories along the way, and so are all of
you. If your cultures are Lowlands-derived, just cast your minds back to
your childhoods.

If it goes the way I hope it will, this will be a popular series of
presentations.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 18:05:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:05:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.110524.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]

When I was growing up in Scotland the toilet was normally referred to as
the "bathroom".

"Toilet" was considered posh and only used when visiting people and
places you didn't know very well.

"Lavvy" was also quite normal though considered a bit crude.

As schoolboys we would normally refer to it as "the bog", though of
course there were other expressions such as "the shitehoose" and "the
wee hoose" ("wee" here meaning "little", so it's actually a cute
euphemism).

British Sign Language also has large numbers of signs for toilet, from
the transparent to the obscure. These are important signs because it's
not usual for a Deaf person to walk off without saying where they're
going: you can't call after them to find out, after all.

Signs that mime (though mime is stylised in sign languages):

   o    pulling a chain on a cistern;
   o    turning a handle on a cistern;
   o    pushing a button on a cistern;
   o    washing hands;

(now I'm thinking, what a strange word, "cistern", where does that come
from?!)

and those that are more abstract:

   o    holding flat hand vertically and tapping the index finger edge
against the right cheek (if it's the right hand), twice: obscure but
looks like it might be a variant of the sign for "private" or else
"call";
   o    extending middle finger from wrist and rubbing it against chest
near opposite shoulder: I've no idea where this comes from;
   o    fingerspelling "TT";

You can of course get rude and just sign "piddle" and suchlike.

In German Sign Language (do they have a separate sign language which
could be called "Low Saxon Sign Language" I wonder, or is it the same
thing?) I've seen two:

   o    shaking a telephone receiver at the side of the head while
mouthing "shhh" (this strikes us British as a very strange and
intriguing sign indeed!);
   o    holding up the hand with the index finger and thumb curved and
the other fingers fanned so that it displays the letters "WC" on a
single hand.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi, Sandy!

This is all interesting stuff. You wrote about German signing for "toilet":

   o    shaking a telephone receiver at the side of the head while
mouthing "shhh" (this strikes us British as a very strange and
intriguing sign indeed!);

My immediate reaction to this description was that it means "Someone is
calling me (on the phone) ... but not really, you know."  Of course, we need
to remind the youngsters among us that all telephones used to have landlines
and were in certain rooms of houses (typically hallways), so that people
usually had to leave to make or receive calls. The shaking receiver sign may
mean "ringing telephone". The "shhh" sign may be a classifier for "taboo
replacement" (saying it in place of something that ought not be said). I
have no idea if any of this is factual. All I can say is that the sign
didn't seem strange to me when I read your description. It would be
interesting to see if the "shhh" sign is used for other euphemisms as well.

Aside from this, let

As schoolboys we would normally refer to it as "the bog", though of
course there were other expressions such as "the shitehoose" and "the
wee hoose" ("wee" here meaning "little", so it's actually a cute
euphemism).

I heard "bog" in this sense used in Australia, and it seemed similarly
coarse.

Scots *shitehoose* [ˈʃəɪthus] would be very well understood by Low Saxon
speakers, for their language has a similar sounding cognate: *schythuus* (*
Schiethuus* [ˈʃiːthuːs]), plural *schythuys'* (*Schiethüüs'* [ˈʃiːthyːˑz]).

There's another choice in Low Saxon: *Pardemang* [ˌpʰaːdeˈmaˑŋ(k)] ~ *
Paddemang* [ˌpʰadeˈmaˑŋ(k)] ~ *Parremang* [ˌpʰaˑreˈmaˑŋ(k)]. Obviously, this
one comes from French *appartement* which carries the basic sense of
"separate quarter(s)".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 18:30:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:30:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.21 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.113036.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: History - Priestless Church

The Preistless Church article on Water Under the Bridge as two parrallells
in Ireland. In the North of Ireland the Covenentars met in the open while
being persecuted by the Church of England under Charles II, and all the
island is peppered with local "Mass Rocks" where priests on the run preached
to their flock either on the open or from the backs of carts.

Again, there was lookouts, and the Yeomanry were sent to break it up.

Talking of language connections, many dismiss the Dutch influence on English
and Scots here in Ireland. However the Dutch Kerk can clearly be seen to
have influenced the Scots and Ullans word of Kirk, as in Irish it is Cill,
and English has no word I know of similar.

- Tomas

-------

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: History

Ron, i dont know if this post suits the group or not, Ill let you decide. If
it doesnt, delete it, no harm done. It might suit the "Water Under the
Bridge Section".

- Tomas

Tracing familiy branches that have become isolated as a result of history is
something that effects a lot of families, both from the West looking ot the
battlefields of Europe, and from Europe looking out at the allied powers
from where an ancestor may have came.

My Grandunclue Thomas Reilly was as I understand it, the typical bum...
lived for work and drink, and emigrated to the New World circa 1910 from
Ireland. What this has to do with history will be explained later on.

He ended up in the Bowery like many another man and indeed Irishman more
than once, and came home every so often during his dry spells to see family
and tell them just how great the New World was. Of course we had neighbours
there who reported his real situation, but all kept schtum anyway.

In 1917, he joined the US cavalry, and was stationsed in Germany after WWI,
where he met a local girl, and married her (as our version goes, whether he
did or not we dont actually know). She had two children circa 1920-1925, and
died in childbirth, so he gave the children called Tom and Ned to her
parents who were shopkeepers to be raised, headed off to the USA and resumed
his productive lifestyle as before.

After another few bouts n the drink, on the dry, he returned home in 1934
and told such horrifying stories of the hell of the gret war his brother in
law (my grandfather) threatned to hammer him is he did not shut up. The
children were fascinated of cource!!! Now the grandfather was not sqeamish,
having come through the Tan War and the Irish Civil War. (His wifes first
cousing was the wife of the Blacksmith of Ballinalee, General Sean Mac Eoin)

He joined the British Army in WWII and again headed for Europe, losing his
arms and legs in the Dunkirk saga. Moved to military hospital, we got a
telegram in 1953 that he died of TB in military hospital. Being with the
Brits was taboo in them days, so the telegraph was ignored, hushed up and
where the man was buried we dont know.

Contacts with the Royal British Legion were to little avail, but Ive to
follow up a lead they gave me.

So that was that.

I grew up in the little town of Banagher (or Bannaker as many Germans
misrponounced it) One day my dad was enjoying his few drinks too many when
the owner of Haughs pub come over and said "John, heres a good one, have you
ever heard of two Germans called Reilly?" Dad laughed and passed no remarks.

He told my mother when he went home, and she nearly dropped the dinner
plates she was carrying. "They could be Uncle Toms kids" she said. Dad took
the cue to extrat more money for booze from mam, and went officially to
track down the Germans and find out was it them. He got as far as the second
pub down the street, spent the night there and staggered home declaring they
were nowhere to be found, before sheepishly admitting he never looked for
them at all!!!

To make a long story short, we are still looking for this branch of the
family, and maybe a Lowlannds memeber might know a German or two called
Reilly, whose grandparents who reared them were shopkeepers. If you do, or
have photos of them, get in touch.

One of the few pictures I have of him I used in the cover of my poetry book
"Passing by our Planet <http://www.lulu.com/content/322275#>" and I include
below.

That is him in the US cavalry. Those who went and took pictures and sold
them to the soldiers printied the pictures on postcards, and the soldiers
posted them home. We have one of those cards. Unfortunalty, he put the
postcard in an envelope and wrote a letter along with it, as opposed to
writing on the card!!!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi, Tom, thanks, and congrats on another book published!

Family histories do absolutely qualify for inclusion in the history
presentation (http://lowlands-l.net/history/). Say the word, and I'll
include the story about your relative, or you might tweak it a bit if you
wish. Of coarse, your new book can be mentioned in that context.

The same applies if you "donate" a poem or four from the book to the Gallery
presentation (http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/).

And you might like to write something about the Mass Rocks for the History
and/or Travel series.

As for *kerk*, I have a feeling this is a spelling twist on Scots *kirk*.
The short Scots /i/ tends to be pronounced lower than "i" in English "in"
and "lid" and is often heard as [e].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 22:35:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:35:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.153558.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]

> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]
> Mike's post reminds me of another euphemism in English for "toilet": the
necessary.

In my Limburgish we say "*noa het heske gon*" (go to the little house) for
going to the lavatory.
Formerly the lavatory was a little house, separated from the main building,
not heated, with just a round hole in a board, covering the
pit. Traditionally a little hart was cut-out in the door, so one could have
some contact from the outside with the person inside. The expression
survived, without people realizing the historical etymology.

One of my TV favorites is the Swedish TV film "Kunglig Toalette"  (
http://www.filmpunkten.se/kunglig-toalette.asp). It is about the preparation
of a king's visit to a small town. The visit includes a tour in a plant,
where one thinks one has to construct a lavatory consistent with a supposed
protocol. The leftists are against and use the term "*shithus".* We also
have that term "*sjèèthoës*" (Dutch: schijthuis), but it is very vulgar.
(In my Liburgish: "hoës" (sleeptoon), plural "hais" (stoottoon), diminutive
"heske")

Today i saw (bilingual) on a bus downtown Brussels that it was going to the
"*cimetière / begraafplaats*" (graveyard). I'm rather used to "*kerkhof*",
but nowadays it is no longer close to a church and burials are not all
christian anymore. So the name is adjusted.

False friends:
In the seventies I did a summer job for Babcock in Essen and Oberhausen (I
had to translated specs from Framatome for nuclear plants from French into
German). I worked for an engineer called "*Friedhof".* I wrongly called him
unintentionally "*Kirchhof"* several times.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

> Scots /shitehoose/ [ˈʃəɪthus] would be very well understood by Low Saxon
> speakers, for their language has a similar sounding cognate: /schythuus/
> (/Schiethuus/ [ˈʃiːthuːs]), plural /schythuys'/ (/Schiethüüs'/
> [ˈʃiːthyːˑz]).
>
> There's another choice in Low Saxon: /Pardemang/ [ˌpʰaːdeˈmaˑŋ(k)] ~
> /Paddemang/ [ˌpʰadeˈmaˑŋ(k)] ~ /Parremang/ [ˌpʰaˑreˈmaˑŋ(k)]. Obviously,
> this one comes from French /appartement/ which carries the basic sense of
> "separate quarter(s)".
>

Traditional Brabantish (and Limburgish as well I believe) has "(h)öske" for
toilet, which actually means "little house"; because in a farm, a toilet
used to be a little outhouse, separate from the main building. The good
thing was that you had a roof above your head, but still you had to go
outside to take care of business.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (02) [E]

Okay, Sandy brings up a DGS (German Sign Language) sign for toilet
which i happen to know the etymology of (or at least the source and
the common folk etymology).

>    o    shaking a telephone receiver at the side of the head while
> mouthing "shhh" (this strikes us British as a very strange and
> intriguing sign indeed!);

This I have also seen used in international settings among Deaf of
various countries, where various versions of International Sign are
being used. International Sign is largely a "European thing", and it
seems to have been the source of signs in DGS (more so than other sign
languages I am remotely familiar with).

As for the source, it is ASL (American Sign Language, where the idiom
"telephone room" is used for toilet. This usage has apparently been
around for quite some time (decades anyway, judging from the fact that
it is used naturally by people much older than myself). The (folk)
etymology is that back in the old days, before TTYs and faxes, back
when telephones were of absolutely NO use to Deaf people, when you
moved into a new furnished apartment (a common thing in the US), and
there was a telephone wasting perfectly good counter space in the
kitchen or living room, you just unplugged it and proceeded to store
it in the least  : like under the sink in the bathroom, behind all
those poisonous cleansers, etc.

Whether this etymology is correct of not (it seems to me to be too
cute to be true), nevertheless the idiom is quite widespread, and I
believe the source of the DGS sign (modified of course).

As for the other DGS sign Sandy refers to, namely:
>    o    holding up the hand with the index finger and thumb curved and
> the other fingers fanned so that it displays the letters "WC" on a
> single hand.

This is exactly the sign used in JSL (Japanese Sign Language).

NGT (Sign Language of the Netherlands ... FINALLY! A LOWLANDS sign
language) has an interesting twist to this sign: the fingerspelling
sign for "W" (the extended thumb, index and middle fingers) is bent
(as in the fingerspelled letter "C") -- and instance of a
fingerspelling handshape incorporated into another fingerspelling
handshape. (Number incorporation is quite common across sign
languages; alphabet letter incorporation into a sign is also quite
common, but into another alphabet letter is quite rare.)

> British Sign Language also has large numbers of signs for toilet,
>    ...
>    o    washing hands;

This is the more "genteel" JSL sign, used by ladies (as opposed to
women!). It is no dout also connected with the Japanese euphemism 御手洗
o-tearai literally "most respected hand washing (place)"

(As with BSL, JSL has a number of not so genteel ways of signing
toilet ... mostly seen among elderly men.)

>    o    fingerspelling "TT";

The most common ASL sign for toilet is the fingerspelled "T" shaken
from side to side. As this handshape (with the thumb inserted between
the index and middle fingers of the closed fist) is considered QUITE
rude in many parts of the world, it had best be avoided outside of its
homeland.

A repeated fingerspelling, similar to the BSL "TT" is the ASL "RR" ...
for "RestRoom". It also so happens to be the sign for "RailRoad"!

Here in India the commonest sign is also that used by the hearing
population as gesture: The extended pinkie finger is shaken from side
to side. (Actually, strictly speaking this refers ONLY to urination,
but ...)

Finally, moving away from sign languages to Lowlands territory (of
colonial days anyway) again, the Scots "the wee hoose" , referring no
doubt to the days of the outhouse, is exactly parallel to the way the
room is referred to in Bahasa Indonesia.

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक  || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 00:52:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:52:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.21 (05) [LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.175209.0700.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (01) [LS]

Am 20.06.2008 um 18:06 schrieb Marcus Buck:

 Op de plattdüütsche Wikipedia sammel ik Websteden, op de sik een
> Plattdüütsch anhöörn kann: <http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Platt_anh%C3%B6%C3%B6rn>
> (is dat Tofall, dat du hier vun dit Video schriffst? Is jüst twee Daag her,
> dat ik dat Video in de List indragen harr). Blot een Dialekt fehlt mi dor
> noch kumplett: Märkisch/Brannenborgsch.
>

Hey Marcus un al,

daar gift't wual nich meer viel. Dat dröfde daarmet to daun hebben, dat
Berlin - as de groute Agathe Laasch dat in "Berlinisch" - Eine berlinische
Sprachgeschichte (1928) afhannelt harr -, Berlin toeerste, dan nau un nau
auk dat branneborgske ümmelant al tüsken 1400 un 1500 offisiel un bet 1800
folgens wual auk de meerste deel van'n volk to dat Meesniske
(Meißnische=haugdüütsk-"buawensassiske" van'm 15. jaarhunnert) wesselt
harren. Dat mögget mi besünners, wiil dat Miärkiske viel van den
Oustfialsken seddelers/kolonisten priäget was (un darümme auk wat van de
westfialske diphtongeerenge harr!). Män 'n paar üöwerbliiwsel mag dat wual
nau giiwen.

 Nich een enkelt Woord Brannenborgsch kunn ik op't Internett finnen. Rein
> gor nix.
> Hett dor villicht een en Tipp, wo ik wat finnen kann?
>

Een paar korte toun-upnaamen gift't up de websiit van de Uni Potsdam:
http://www.uni-potsdam.de/u/germanistik/ls_dia/umfrage/

Een paar schriewene teksten up märkisk kanste up de websiide van'n
Brannenborger Kultuurbund fiinen:
http://www.kulturbund.de/mundart/p2.htm

Met echt-westfälsken Gröiten
Joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
(Berlin)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 01:02:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:02:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (06) [E/LS/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.180226.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (04) [E]

At 06:35 PM 21/06/2008, Roger Thijs wrote:

In my Limburgish we say "*noa het heske gon*" (go to the little house) for
going to the lavatory.
Formerly the lavatory was a little house, separated from the main building,
not heated, with just a round hole in a board, covering the pit.
Traditionally a little hart was cut-out in the door, so one could have some
contact from the outside with the person inside. The expression survived,
without people realizing the historical etymology.


"In the summer fifty yards too close, and in the winter fifty yards too far
away."

 One of my TV favorites is the Swedish TV film "Kunglig Toalette"
(http://www.filmpunkten.se/kunglig-toalette.asp).
It is about the preparation of a king's visit to a small town. The visit
includes a tour in a plant, where one thinks one has to construct a lavatory
consistent with a supposed protocol. The leftists are against and use the
term "*shithus".* We also have that term "*sjèèthoës*" (Dutch:
schijthuis), but it is very vulgar.
(In my Liburgish: "hoës" (sleeptoon), plural "hais" (stoottoon), diminutive
"heske")


There's a North American (at least) expression about particularly well built
and solid structures of which it is said:  "Built like a brick shithouse."

When I was an undergraduate living in a dorm where we were supposed to speak
German, there was a poem on the bathroom door, which went:

In diesem Haus da wohnt ein Geist
Wer länger als zehn Minuten scheißt
Den unten in den Säckel beißt
Zehn Minuten wird schon geschissen,
Wer länger bleibt wird rausgeschmissen.

This was also translated into five or six other languages.  Hey, Ron, maybe
this could be a project to translate this into all the Lowlands languages!
Maybe I could get some oak clusters to go with my Golden Squirrel.

Ed Alexander

----------

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (05) [LS]

Hey,

22.06.2008 klok 00:35 schraif Roger Thijs:

> In my Limburgish we say "noa het heske gon" (go to the little house) for
> going to the lavatory.
>

Dat gült auk for't Westfialske. In'm Usembrügger Lant (region of Osnabrück)
is dat
"nau'n hüüsken gaun", bi manslüüe [men] langede auk meerstiids "de
piss-oort". En bietken fiiner is "af-oort" or'r de beröumte "fruu Meggern"
[Mrs. Meyer]. Man dat setde al voruut, dat de buuren söckes hat hewwet, wat
je nich jümmers giewen was...

De groute Westfialsk-schriiwer Lyra berichtede (1844) van eene begiewenheet,
as he met siin'n Vaader - en pastoor up'm lande -  nau'n stierwenskranken
buuren metgaun was:

------------------------------
Mi kwam wat an [something came over me] un ick fröög de Aulsken [squaw, the
peasent's wife], waar de Fruu Meggern wööre, dann sau hedde de Afoort in
uusen Huuse; dat verstönd se anteerste nich, man as'k't eer düütlicker
maakede [after making it clearer], siä se [she said]: Met söcke
Wiitlöftigheeden hält de Buur sick nich up, de dooet söckes wat alltiidt uut
friier Hand uäwer de Hacken weg [over the heels], un wi bringet 't meestig
achter 't Backs  [bakery house] an de Müüren, of tüsken de Fiikeshaunen
[broad beans - Vicia faba]; ick woll di den Weg wual wiisen, man ick rieke,
du schast 'ne alleine wual fiinen, dann 'r staaet Wegwiisers e noog langes
'n Haagen, dat du nich betwielen [lose the way - miss the path] kannst. Wann
du de Bücksen [trousers] wual [perhaps, in case] nich alleine wier to
kriigen kannst, dann kumm man wier na mi, dann will 'k se di faste wier
toknäupen.

(F. W. Lyra: Plattdeutsche Briefe, Erzählungen und Gedichte..., Osnabrück
1844)
------------------------------

==> Siit een paar daagen kan men dat bouk van F. W. Lyra - dank miiner
Digi-Book-Vadderscup (sponsorship) - "anner liine" liäsen [read online] or'r
runnerlaaen (man dat is in de originaale fraktuur-schrift):

http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/no_cache/dms/load/toc/?IDDOC=321236

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

There's another word for "toilet" in Northern Low Saxon: *aftrit*
(*Aftritt*[ˈʔaftrɪt]), literally something like ""step-away"
("off-step").

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 15:53:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:53:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.085354.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.21 (03) [E]

> From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
> Subject: History

[...]

> To make a long story short, we are still looking for this
> branch of the
> family, and maybe a Lowlannds memeber might know a German
> or two called
> Reilly, whose grandparents who reared them were
> shopkeepers. If you do, or
> have photos of them, get in touch.

Hi Tom,

If I understand correctly, you want to find family in Germany [we all want,
of course], and the name  = Reilly .

Such a small, but dignified name, we have to try.

Look in:

http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/Default.aspx

and you'll find 34 persons in the German telephone-books [no no no no, don't
touch the bottle].

If all these 34 persons are your family: congratulations, and many happy
birthdays to each one of them. And to you of course.

Come over, and have a look, and have a drink or two with each one of them,
and write a poem about each one of them: All Lowlanders are waiting.

Congratulations.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

�

==============================END===================================

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 16:16:04 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:16:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.091604.0700.>

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (04) [E]

Ron, you wrote:
I can see it as a "wise sayings" vignette on the index page of the history
project (http://lowlands-l.net/history/).

I followed the link and it brought me to Andrys Onsman's contribution to the
project: "In Jabik's Footsteps".

Andrys writes: "The path starts in St Jabik (called Sint Jacobiparochie in
Dutch), a small village in the far north in the semi-autonomous area called
Fryslân."

Fryslân (Friesland) semi autonomous? Since when? To my knowledge nothing in
this country has a different administrative status. There is the national
government (rijksoverheid), 12 provincial governments (Friesland is one of
those) and some 430 local authorities (gemeenten). All provincial
governments are bound by the same laws.

Very interesting contribution though. The pilgrimage to Santiago de
Compostella is done by quite a few people and not only for religious reasons
(sometimes not at all).

Groetjes, Fred
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 16:10:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:10:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.091049.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.
Subject: LL-L Language varieties

Dutch linguists include Limburgish in the Dutch language area. For them the
maken-machen isogloss separates Dutch from German, making the dialect of
Eupen the most Southern variant of Dutch.

In 1815 five cantons at the East of the former French Dept. de l'Ourthe (now
the Belgian province of Liège) were ceeded to Prussia:
- Eupen (before 1795 belonging to the Duchy of Limburg)
- Malmedy (before 1795 belonging to the joint abbey territory of
Stavelot-Malmedy)
- SanktVith, Schleiden and Kronenburg (before 1795 belonging to the Duchy of
Luxemburg)
(From the canton of Aubel the Eastern part of the municipality of Moresnet
became Prussian, the center remained undivided)
In Prussian Rhenania, the Eupen area became a Kreis, Sankt-Vith was absobed
into the Kreis Malmedy.

In 1919 Eupen (including Neutral Moresnet) and Malmedy (including St-Vith)
were, with some minor borderline corrections, ceeded to Belgium. Momentarily
the area belongs to the Walloon region in Belgium. The districts of Eupen
and Sank-Vith form the German language cultural area (with own govenment and
parliament). For the walloon-language district of Malmedy there is a formal
protection of the German minority.

The "Eupener Geschichts- und Museumsverein" publishes a yearbook. I just got
the one for 2008:
"Geschichtliches Eupen", Band XLII, 2008, Grenz-Echo Verlag, Eupen, ISBN
978-3-86712-024-1, 176 pp.

Historical contributions are interleaved with small texts in local dialect.
Below a sample from p. 133-134.
The g -> j substitution is for me rather typical for Ripuarian.
The multiple use of accents may be induced by French and/or Walloon
orthography.

-- quote:
WALTER POMMÉE

D'r oue Dag

Ich jlöev et kömmt an jiterène
Dèe et bis da noch hat geschaft.
Jemeind sönd all die Lü su över séstech
En die dr Düedt noch niet hat wejjeraft.
Me bruckt sech mär ens vör ne Spiejel hen te stelle,
Da sitt me wat et Lèeve hat ûet ôes jemagd.

Wûe früjer wor ene "Locke-Kopp"
Da is nu jar jen Hoor mie dropp.
Da sitt me hie en da en Frattel,
die bo esu groet sönt wie en Dattel.
De Teint sönt och niet mie va mich,
die lije dajlang op jene Desch.
Anstatt se ejen Mull te doene,
sitt me mich ohne Teint da stoene.

Da söent, besaundesch vöel hie Frôhe,
et jans jesicht voll grûete Vaue.
Wat kann me mer dajeje dôene,
Et lonnt niet, no dr Dokter johne,
de jütt dech Rohtschläch noch en noch
of die ôech helpe, bezweifl' ech noch.
Da haut och noch, of Mann of Frôu
Aunder jither Pûet, en Elstero.

(wert wierjemaakt)
-- page 133 / 134
(Hje jet et wiher)

Met Artrose, Rheuma, Gicht,
spart dr aue Dag och nich.
Jett mut ich noch dohn erwäene,
e kitschke dôof is och bo jiderène
ôech mit ene Bröelle ob jen Tüll,
sitt meh hie bo all ôe Lüe.

Frohlü, Mannslü över sestech,
di vör Johre sport jemakt,
die sönt mestens fitt en kräftej
weil se noch vöel Muskelle hannt.
Ne joûe Roht will ich noch jève.
Jüet met jene Kopp hüech dörch et Lève,
Makt alles met, met völ Humor,
da is et Auerwerde vöer jène mie esue schwor.

-- end quote

Enjoy puzzling,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks a lot, dear Roger.

That *is* a very interesting transitional variety. That general geographical
area is rather interesting in that it's a meeting place of Low Franconian,
Limburgish, Low Saxon, and Ripuarian, thus of Lowlands varieties and Central
German.

I take it *geschaft* is an error, should be *jeschaft* 'accomplished'.

The shift g > j is indeed a Ripuarian feature. In Low Saxon it is a feature
of the far-eastern varieties.

If we consider *bezweifl'* (Low Saxon *betwievel*) '(I) view with doubt' a
German loan (*ich bezweifle*), I would consider this variety Lowlandic with
a touch of Ripuarian color.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 16:22:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:22:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.092219.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 22 June 2008 - Volume 04
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]

> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]
> Mike's post reminds me of another euphemism in English for "toilet": the
necessary.

In my Limburgish we say "*noa het heske gon*" (go to the little house) for
going to the lavatory.
Formerly the lavatory was a little house, separated from the main building,
not heated, with just a round hole in a board, covering the
pit. Traditionally a little hart was cut-out in the door, so one could have
some contact from the outside with the person inside. The expression
survived, without people realizing the historical etymology.

In Westerlauwer Frisian the most common expression too is: "nei it húske
gean".
The toilet is still referred to as "it húske", almost universally, I would
say.
I've heard this on Heligoland as well, and it probably occurs in more
Frisian dialects in Germany as well.

Henno

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Ron,

I wrote:

> Traditional Brabantish (and Limburgish as well I believe) has "(h)öske" for
> toilet, which actually means "little house"; because in a farm, a toilet
> used to be a little outhouse, separate from the main building. The good
> thing was that you had a roof above your head, but still you had to go
> outside to take care of business.
>

Apparently Austrian German uses a similar word for toilet: Häusl. On the
evolution of the tiniest room:

http://www.ooegeschichte.at/WC.723.0.html

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: Even in the mid-20th century, the "Misthaufen" was still in use here
in many farms (for the purpose mentioned above).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Luc.

Apparently Austrian German uses a similar word for toilet: Häusl. On the
evolution of the tiniest room:

It's the same in Bavarian, now spelled *Hoisl*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 16:23:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:23:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.092342.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 22 June 2008 - Volume 04
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]

> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]
> Mike's post reminds me of another euphemism in English for "toilet": the
necessary.

In my Limburgish we say "*noa het heske gon*" (go to the little house) for
going to the lavatory.
Formerly the lavatory was a little house, separated from the main building,
not heated, with just a round hole in a board, covering the
pit. Traditionally a little hart was cut-out in the door, so one could have
some contact from the outside with the person inside. The expression
survived, without people realizing the historical etymology.

In Westerlauwer Frisian the most common expression too is: "nei it húske
gean".
The toilet is still referred to as "it húske", almost universally, I would
say.
I've heard this on Heligoland as well, and it probably occurs in more
Frisian dialects in Germany as well.

Henno

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Ron,

I wrote:

> Traditional Brabantish (and Limburgish as well I believe) has "(h)öske" for
> toilet, which actually means "little house"; because in a farm, a toilet
> used to be a little outhouse, separate from the main building. The good
> thing was that you had a roof above your head, but still you had to go
> outside to take care of business.
>

Apparently Austrian German uses a similar word for toilet: Häusl. On the
evolution of the tiniest room:

http://www.ooegeschichte.at/WC.723.0.html

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: Even in the mid-20th century, the "Misthaufen" was still in use here
in many farms (for the purpose mentioned above).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Luc.

Apparently Austrian German uses a similar word for toilet: Häusl. On the
evolution of the tiniest room:

It's the same in Bavarian, now spelled *Hoisl*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 03:58:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:58:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.205816.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (01) [E]

Ill check it out!!!

Thanks,

Tomas

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.21 (03) [E]

> From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
> Subject: History

[...]

> To make a long story short, we are still looking for this
> branch of the
> family, and maybe a Lowlannds memeber might know a German
> or two called
> Reilly, whose grandparents who reared them were
> shopkeepers. If you do, or
> have photos of them, get in touch.

Hi Tom,

If I understand correctly, you want to find family in Germany [we all want,
of course], and the name  = Reilly .

Such a small, but dignified name, we have to try.

Look in:

http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/Default.aspx

and you'll find 34 persons in the German telephone-books [no no no no, don't
touch the bottle].

If all these 34 persons are your family: congratulations, and many happy
birthdays to each one of them. And to you of course.

Come over, and have a look, and have a drink or two with each one of them,
and write a poem about each one of them: All Lowlanders are waiting.

Congratulations.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 03:59:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:59:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.205914.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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 ========================================================================
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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (01) [E]

Ill check it out!!!

Thanks,

Tomas

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.21 (03) [E]

> From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
> Subject: History

[...]

> To make a long story short, we are still looking for this
> branch of the
> family, and maybe a Lowlannds memeber might know a German
> or two called
> Reilly, whose grandparents who reared them were
> shopkeepers. If you do, or
> have photos of them, get in touch.

Hi Tom,

If I understand correctly, you want to find family in Germany [we all want,
of course], and the name  = Reilly .

Such a small, but dignified name, we have to try.

Look in:

http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/Default.aspx

and you'll find 34 persons in the German telephone-books [no no no no, don't
touch the bottle].

If all these 34 persons are your family: congratulations, and many happy
birthdays to each one of them. And to you of course.

Come over, and have a look, and have a drink or two with each one of them,
and write a poem about each one of them: All Lowlanders are waiting.

Congratulations.

vr. gr.

�

==============================END===================================

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 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 04:05:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:05:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.210551.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
> Subject: Language varieties
> I take it *geschaft* is an error, should be *jeschaft* 'accomplished'.

Here is a scan of the original:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/133.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/134.jpg

This time it's not a typing error of mine.

I'm not sure about the rules,
cf. "gesmackt" p. 68 in the same publication.
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/68.jpg

I think there is a mixture in this transition area, or both forms may be
accepable in some cases.
Dialects are not standardized.
Eupen is normally written *Öpe*, here (p. 68) though *Öüpe*
(Actually in German it is wrongly pronounced, by misreading the Low
Franconian orthography)

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (02) [E]

I wrote about the initial g/j
> I think there is a mixture in this transition area, or both forms may be
accepatble in some cases.

I would like to add a few things to my previous mailing.

Before WWII Eupen was apparently not yet Ripuarized for the initial g.
cf. Wilhelm Welter, *Die Niederfränkischen Mundarten im Nordosten der
Provinz Lüttich*, 1933, 's Gravenhage, xix + 206 pp.
especially p 28-31
The book is yellowed, brittle, and almost falling into pieces, but I could
still scan:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w28.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w29.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w30.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w31.jpg
The six villages at the left of the map merged into "Voeren" and are now
part of the province of Belgian Limburg.
Linguists consider the *Bernrather Linie* (maken/machen) as the delimiter od
Dutch. Practically there is a complex transition in the field, as one will
understand from pages 25-27
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w25.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w26.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w27.jpg
A map of the situation before 1919 (with Eupen still in Prussia) is on p
xix:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/wxiv.jpg

The E in the notes refers to an earlier book by Welter:
*Studien zur Dialektgeographie des Kreises Eupen*, Rheinisches Archiv, VIII,
Bonn, 1929
but I don't have that one.

Some other maps are scanned from the:
*Wortatlas der deutschen Umgangsspprachen in Belgien,*
herausgegeben von der Forschungsstelle für Mehrsprachlichkeit in Brüssel
unter Leitung von Peter H. Nelde,
Wortatlas der deutschen Umgangssprachen, Ergänzungsreihe, herausgegeben von
Jürgen Eichhoff, Band I,
Francke Verlag, Bern und Stuttgart, 1987
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/n15.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/n16.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/n17.jpg
(I got an annotated copy in an antiquarian bookshop, It was sent by Francke
Verlag, Bern, to the "Faculteit van de Letteren en Wijsbegeerte" of Ghent
University, but I guess they dumped it because of the notes. I often find
annotated books in antiquarian bookshops. I like buying them, since one gets
two books for one)

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.20 (03) [E/LS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> I get a message that access is denied to "your country" when I click on
> this link: Herbstlied <
> http://www.clipfish.de/player.php?videoid=NzQzOTk5fDEzMjQwNDU%3D>
>


 Well, Marcus, and as for the songs from Schleswig/Sleswig/Slesvig, does
> this mean that Low Saxon /is/ still used on Danish soil? I have written to
> the owner of that Danish site to tell him that Low Saxon is not a "German
> language type" as it is called there.
>
I don't know. The recordings are from the 1960s, according to the site. It's
not unlikely, that some are left even today, but if so, there will be few.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.21 (05) [LS]

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de <mailto:
Kreimer at jpberlin.de>>

>
>    Op de plattdüütsche Wikipedia sammel ik Websteden, op de sik een
>    Plattdüütsch anhöörn kann:
>    <http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Platt_anh%C3%B6%C3%B6rn>
>    (is dat Tofall, dat du hier vun dit Video schriffst? Is jüst twee
>    Daag her, dat ik dat Video in de List indragen harr). Blot een
>    Dialekt fehlt mi dor noch kumplett: Märkisch/Brannenborgsch.
>
> Hey Marcus un al,
>
> daar gift't wual nich meer viel. Dat dröfde daarmet to daun hebben, dat
> Berlin - as de groute Agathe Laasch dat in "Berlinisch" - Eine berlinische
> Sprachgeschichte (1928) afhannelt harr -, Berlin toeerste, dan nau un nau
> auk dat branneborgske ümmelant al tüsken 1400 un 1500 offisiel un bet 1800
> folgens wual auk de meerste deel van'n volk to dat Meesniske
> (Meißnische=haugdüütsk-
> "buawensassiske" van'm 15. jaarhunnert) wesselt harren. Dat mögget mi
> besünners, wiil dat Miärkiske viel van den Oustfialsken seddelers/kolonisten
> priäget was (un darümme auk wat van de westfialske diphtongeerenge harr!).
> Män 'n paar üöwerbliiwsel mag dat wual nau giiwen.
>
Ganz so fröh weer dat aver noch nich. In'n Süden is al temlich fröh wat
afbröckelt, aver Berlinisch is eerst en Problem worrn, nadem Berlin anfungen
hett, so dull to wassen. Dat güng besünners los, nadem se Hauptstadt weer
vun dat Düütsche Riek. Vör 1870 harr Berlin man kuum 500.000 Inwahners un is
denn in föfftig Johr op över veer Millionen wussen. Wenker hett 1880 noch en
intakte Dialektlandschaft vörfunnen, de is nu nich mehr dor. Allens in de
Berlinerismen afsapen. De Dialektbispelen vun de Uni Potsdam wiest dat ja
ok. In de Prignitz heet dat dor ok 'ooch' un nich 'ook'. Un de Uni hett en
Ümfraag, de intressant is: <
http://www.uni-potsdam.de/u/germanistik/ls_dia/umfrage/>.
De olen Lüüd över 60, de seggt to'n Deel mit över 90 %, dat de Dialekt in
jemehr Öörd 'Platt' heet (un en groten Deel seggt ok, dat se em snackt, dat
weer 1993). De jungen Lüüd seggt all, dat dor 'Berlinerisch' snackt warrt.
Un so is dat wohrschienlich ok: De Olen snackt Platt un de Jungen berlinert.
Ik heff ja so'n beten den Verdacht, dat dat mit Brannenborg un dat
Plattdüütsche gornich so slecht utsüht, as wat een denkt, wenn man sik
ankickt, wo wenig Brannenbörger Platt in Böker, in Bläder, in Funk un
Feernsehn bruukt warrt. Wenn een na de Präsenz in disse Medien kickt, denn
mutt een denken, dat Brannenbörger Platt musedood is. Aver dat glööv ik
gornich mal. Ik glööv, dat gifft noch allerhand ole Lüüd, de sik blot nich
wiest, blot privat Platt bruukt. Ik glööv, dat hett veel mit 'Identität' to
doon. För de Noorddüütschen steckt in 'Plattdüütsch' en Stück Identität. För
de Bayern steckt in Bairisch veel Identität un de Swiezer Identität reckt so
wied, dat 90 % vun de Swiezers jümmer Dialekt snackt. För de Brannenbörger
steckt in Plattdüütsch keen Identität. Ganz in'n Gegendeel: De Erfolg vun
dat Berlinerische hett wohrschienlich vör allen ok dormit to doon, dat dat
'Ossi-Sprache' is. De DDR-Identität.
De Lüüd in Brannenborg snackt also villicht noch Platt, aver se schrievt
keen Böker un nehmt keen Leder op, denn 'Platt' passt nich to de Identität,
to dat Selbstbild.
Denn dor mööt wi vun utgahn, dat Selbstbild hängt kuum vun de Realität af.
Wat een glöövt, wat een is. Wüllt man blot an de Lüüd ut Pomerode in
Brasilien denken. De kemen ut Pommern. Aver in Brasilien weren se mank de
Brasilianers de 'Düütschen'. Un 'Düütsche' fiert Oktoberfest, dat weet doch
de ganze Welt. Un so hebbt de Lüüd ut Pomerode anfungen, Oktoberfest to
fiern. Ok wenn dat in Pommern wohrschienlich bet op den hüdigen Dag noch
keen Oktoberfest geven hett.
Brannenbörger Platt lööst also för de Brannenbörger eenfach keen 'Wi'-Geföhl
ut. Bi de Noorddüütschen gifft dat so'n Wi-Geföhl mit Plattdüütsch as
Utgangspunkt. Un de Katalanen hebbt eerst recht en Wi-Geföhl, dat sik ut de
Spraak nährt.

Brannenbörgsch is also villicht gor nich doder as Oostfäälsch un Westfäälsch
ok. Blot, dat de 'Nich-Dodigheit' vun nüms wohrnahmen warrt. Wenn wi an
Richard Dawkins un sien 'Mem' denkt, denn is dat villicht en 'Negativ-Mem'.
Dat Nich-Utspreken un Nich-Bewusstwarrn-Laten vun en Gedanken, dat sik
verbreden deit. En Swart Lock in'n Infobit-Kosmos. Kollektive
Unbewusstseinswerdung.

oder so

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 04:08:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:08:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.210808.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2008 - Volume 07
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (04) [E]

In Westerlauwer Frisian the most common expression too is: "nei it húske
gean". The toilet is still referred to as "it húske", almost universally, I
would say.
I've heard this on Heligoland as well, and it probably occurs in more
Frisian dialects in Germany as well.

Henno

Hi Henno

In Liwadders we still sing the song:
As kleine jonkjes (of meiskes) op beppe's huuske zitte, dan zakke ze deur de
bril.
It is accompanied by putting the child onto your knees and opening them
suddenly to let him or her "fall into the loo".

Cheers
Andrys
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 16:23:56 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:23:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JUN.2008.092356.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 June 2008 - Volume 01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (04) [E]

In Westerlauwer Frisian the most common expression too is: "nei it húske
gean". The toilet is still referred to as "it húske", almost universally, I
would say.

I've heard this on Heligoland as well, and it probably occurs in more
Frisian dialects in Germany as well.

Henno

Hi Henno

In Liwadders we still sing the song:
As kleine jonkjes (of meiskes) op beppe's huuske zitte, dan zakke ze deur de
bril.
It is accompanied by putting the child onto your knees and opening them
suddenly to let him or her "fall into the loo".

Cheers
Andrys

I seem to remember a similar 'game' here, with a completely unrelated text
though, it goes something like "macadam, macadam, macadam dam dam, steenweg,
steenweg, ne put!" iirc.

Diederik
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 16:25:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:25:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.23 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JUN.2008.092548.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Hugo Zweep <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (03) [E]

Fred and Andrys as well as others might like to know that there is now an
official starting point for the Camino de Santiago in Groningen - apparently
recently opened (inaugurated) by Cardinal Simonis. You can see details of it
on www.jacobspad.nl,

I completed the Camino between St Jean de Pied de Port and Santiago at the
end of April and from there went to the Netherlands and walked for about 10
days following the Wad en Wierdenpad to Nieuwe Schans and then a further
80km or so of the Noaberspad along the German/Dutch border. The main
objective was to take a good long and slow look around where I grew up in
the 1940s but also to see whether there were still many Lowlands speakers
and whether I could be understood. That was a mildly surprising experience
and I'll try and write about it for the Travel section later this year.

In doing the Wierdenpad you coincide with the new Jacobspad for about 10km.
Not knowing about the existence of that extension at the time I wondered why
I was seeing the Camino markers familiar from Spain. Still, the official
path in the Netherlands isn't nearly as much fun as Andrys' version seems to
be. I recommend the Andrys pilgrimage to anyone who might be too seriousl
about the spiritual elevation of the official path.

Hugo Zweep

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 16:58:45 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:58:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JUN.2008.095845.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]

Leve Lowlanders,

The area around Eupen-Maastricht-Liege-Aachen is linguistically indeed very
interesting and very confusing including the curious existence of Neutral
Moresnet which was a virtually independent country for almost hundred years,
remnants are still found as e.g  at the three-country-point near Vaals where
the border lines drawn on the ground still mark the border of former Neutral
Moresnet and the street leading to the three -country-point in Vaals is
still called Viergrensenweg. Since it is linguistically accepted that those
dialects north of the Benrath line are to be categorized as Dutch this again
raises more queston because those dialects in Moenchengladbach (Jlabbaeck)
Neuss (Nuess) and above all Duesseldorf (excl. Benrath) are to be considered
Dutch, thus Lowlands. Kirchroeds (Kerkrade dialect) would be considered
non-Lowlands. But culturally the people in Duesseldorf and Nuess would not
really consider themselfs Dutch, they culturally are much more orientated to
Ripurarian Cologne for obvious geographical reasons, whose dialect they
understand without a problem. Then again, traditionally the people from
Jlabbaeck have no difficulties to understand a dialect speaker from
Roermond, which anyone from Cologne will probably not understand. So where
do you draw the border? The answer is: you cannot!  There is a very
interesting article concering the Franconian language which rejects the idea
to split the now called Low Franconian dialects from Ripurarian and include
them to the Dutch and Low Saxon dialects. It is by Friedrcih Engels (that
very Engels who co-authored "Das Kapital" among others) who argues for
Franconian consciousness apart from German and Dutch from the Panningen line
all the way to the Speyer line. It is available in German under

http://www.mlwerke.de/me/me19/me19_474.htm#Kap_III.

He has got a point just as much as Wenker and Frings have a point. I indeed
believe to divide the northern Rhineland and Limburg into German and Dutch
is almost as impossible as it is to divide Brussels and surroundings into
Wallon and Flemish, both exist next to each other and among each other.

Groeten vun

Helge

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Helge!

Thanks for this very interesting piece! (Not that any of your previous
pieces weren't very interesting as well.)

In even trying to divide or rather classify, especially in an area so
confusingly transitional, I don't think it is expedient to use large
categories that on top of it coincide with national labels: Dutch versus
German. Psychologically alone these categories bring up distortions if you
use them in surveys and proposals -- knee-jerk reactions connected with
national loyalty and historical scars. This would definitely be the case if
you referred to Low Saxon of the Netherlands as a subcategory of "German."
And if you go that far, you might was well consider all Low Franconian
varieties German, which some do, but which is not well received by many.

In discussions about language classification, I would use "Low Franconian"
(or "Low Frankish") instead of "Dutch," and "Low Saxon" for all
Old-Saxon-derived varieties. You might say "Netherlandic" instead of "Low
Franconian," as some do with reference to the cultures of the area that is
now Belgium, the Netherlands and Flemish France.

(I personally use "German" for the varieties other than "Low ...", and I
think there is something to be said for the proposal to consider them "South
Germanic" rather than considering them a group within West Germanic.)

I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The
question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian varieties
from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch"
and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 17:08:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:08:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (04) [E]
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Helge *et al.*,

Here's a quick postscript regarding my comments about language variety
labeling, because in rereading it I discovered what might be seen as a
contradiction.

I said that I consider all varieties to the south "German," but I also said
that I advise against using broad, national-sounding labels.

What I really mean is that such labels ought to be avoided in tricky
situations such as that of the meeting place of Low Franconian, Low Saxon
and Central Franconian (incl. Ripuarian) as well as of political borders
(between Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 21:09:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:09:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.23 (05) [E]
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Language politics

> From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]
> He has got a point just as much as Wenker and Frings have a point. I
indeed believe to divide the northern Rhineland and Limburg into German and
Dutch is almost as impossible as it is to divide Brussels and surroundings
into Wallon and Flemish, both exist next to each other and among each other.

Brussels is about 90 perc. French speaking, when including immigrants maybe
95 perc. Company headquartes are internally bilingual or English *during the
week*. The Grand-Place is linguistically international, other area's are
virtually *French-only in the week-end*.

I do my shopping often downtown in the week-end, and while the official
administative indications are bilingual, it is very difficult to find
someone who understands 5 words of Dutch in the smaller shops. This
indicates also something about the quality of language education in the
French system.
Six border municipalities are Flemish "with facilities", but these switched
to French and one often finds quite often monolingual French speakers in the
shops over there. Some examples from my own recent experience, all in *
Kraainem*:
In the "Lunch Garden" they didn't know what "dagschotel" (day's menu) meant,
even when it is advertised bilingually in large capitals "dagschotel - plat
du jour" over the head of the servant,
In the "Brico" they could not explain me where I could find a
"plint" (baseboard) even when it is "plinthe" (with a nazalized "in" though)
in French.
In the "Carrefour" a lady promoting the use of self-scanners (for scanning
one-self while shopping) could not produce a single word of Dutch, even not
for excusing herself for that.
This all in the *Flemish* community with facilities, actually in "Kraainem".

It is a law that once French gets in, it pushes away all other languages.
The French speaking people are very kind though, most of them just speak
French and French only. Activities by Flemish municipalities for protecting
the local culture at the outskirts (Steenokkerzeel, Zaventem, Overijse) are
represented as facistic in the French-language press.

Switching to France:
A couple of weeks ago it was reported in this list that the French
parliament (the Assemblée Générale) had a sympathetic discussion about
regional languages in Paris. This exceptional cultural laxness has been
condemned and overruled by the French Senat and by the the Académie
française:
"Le 22 mai, lors de l'examen du projet de révision de la Constitution, les *
députés* adoptent un amendement selon lequel *« les langues régionales
appartiennent au patrimoine de **la République** »*. Le 18 juin, les *
sénateurs* suppriment cette disposition, jugée par les deux tiers d'entre
eux, et de tous bords, attentatoire à l'identité nationale et à l'unité de la
République. Ils refusent d'ajouter cette phrase à l'article 1 de la
Constitution. Seuls le PS, les Verts et quelques UMP ont voté contre.

Entre temps, les gérontes de *l'Académie française* avaient préparé le
terrain pour les Sénateurs : « *L'unité de **la Nation** est en jeu »* avait
mis en garde* *Max GALLO !"

quoted from a "communiqué du Bureau de l'Alliance Régionale Flandre Artois
Hainaut" dated june 21.

Back to Belgium.

Actually in Belgium one has two layers, the dialects (or regional
languages?) and the administrative languages (Dutch, French and German).

*As for the dialects:*
I'm not aware of municipalities switching recently from Walloon/Picard
to Flemish/Brabantish/Limburgish/Ripuarisch/Moselle-Franconian
incl. Luxembourgish or v.v.
There may be some exceptions, as e.g. Herstappe (*40 *inhabitants, mostly
farmers) in the very South of Belgian Limburg (switched from French to Dutch
as administrative language in 1930).
The only dialectically bilingual/trilingual municipality I'm aware of is*Aubel
*: Walloon in the South, Voeren-Limburgish in the West; Moresnet-Limburgish
in the East (so not really mixed but combining different hamlets); It became
administratively French-only after WWII.
Toponomy indicates some switches happened quite a long time ago, maybe even
before Dutch or French became written languages, as indicate e.g. the names
of Waterloo, Neerheylissem, Dongelberg, Clabecq etc in Walloon Brabant and
Walshoutem, Walsbets etc in Flemish Brabant.
What is happening though nowadays is *loss of dialect*, combined with
*switching
to an administrative language*. That switch may be from a Germanic dialect
to French.

*As for the administrative languages:*
Belgium started virtually with *French only* in 1830 (with unofficial
translations of the law gazetteer). The Flemish movement acquired a position
for Dutch. The South refused to become bilingual, the North passed gradually
over a *bilingual *situation into *monolingual Dutch*.
Criterium for the administrative language of a municipality were the
language censi. Because of these implications, the censi were politically
inflluenced and turned into referenda, with several municipalities turning
from Dutch into French every 10 years. The WWII heritage was used for
feeding anti-germanic feelings at the occasion of the census of 1947 and as
a result some municalities with 10-15 percent of French speaking people in
1930 switched to 80-90 percent French in 1947.
This was particularily true for Northern (Bleyberg-Moresnet) and Central
Altbelgien (Bocholz = Beho), since these areas were (together with
Eupen-Malmedy-Sankt-Vith) annnexed by the Reich in 1940. Inhabitants were
forced to serve in the German army and punished afterwards by the
Belgians for collaboration with the ennemy.
In 1962 a *fixed* borderline for administrative use was imposed.
Northern people adjust (= switch to French) easily to the local language
when moving to the South,
Southern people generally keep their culture when moving to the North and
use all kind of national and international  legal procedures for getting
switches of the local administrative language into French. This is
especially true in municipalities with "facilities", i.e. special provisions
for serving administratively in the other language.
It is like giving the Indians some territory, let the Anglo-Saxons
immigrate, et let them get right in the Supreme court that they have an
equal opportunity right to impose their culture over Indian land.
 Since the international press (including the Germans) mainly reads French
newspapers in Brussels, the Northern people are often internationally
classified as facistic and intolerant.

Additionally to the political pressure, there was a *difficulty of
definition*. The Limburgish speaking *Sippenaken* got alternatively German
and Dutch language parish priests, depending on availability of resources in
the Bishopric of Liège.
The 1930 census gave: French 42.77 perc., German 33.85 perc., Dutch 18.15
perc. What they really were speaking was a *Limburgish-Ripuarian* transition
dialect. So they got *French *administrative ruling as democacy requires.
(data quoted from Remouchamps, Carte systématique de la Wallonie, p. 211-269
+ large map, in Bulletin de la Commission Royale de Toponymie &
Dialectologie, vol. IX, 1935)

Actually it is *or *French* or* Dutch. History has proven that *mixed
situations leads to French only* after less than 2 generations.

The positive thing. Walloon politicians started acquiring some Dutch since
10-15 years and are becoming able to say a few things in Dutch on Flemish
TV. The effect is that Dutch is no longer dealt with as a farmer's language.
Quite some French-language speakers regret that they cannot speak the first
language of this country. The most frustrating thing for me is seeing on
TV interviews of teachers of Dutch in the French system. It's often
difficult to understand what language they are speaking. So quite some
non-Dutch speakers are sending their kids to schools of the Flemish network
in Brussels, pushing Flemish kids often into a minority position in their
own school.

Btw there is a large German school in Wezembeek-Oppem, a Flemish outskirt
municipality with facilities, momentarily with virtually French-only in the
streets:
http://www.dsbruessel.be/

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks for all that, Roger.

Not much of a surprise in the French news, I'm afraid.

As for Belgium, aren't French and Dutch mandatory school subjects all over
the country and, if not, ought they not be? While this may not make much of
a difference among those that are adults now, it would make a difference in
the future.

The situation would then be as in Norway, where schooling in (majority)
Dano-Norwegian and (minority) Neo-Norwegian is mandatory for all, so that
there's one non-native national language to be learned by everyone.
Similarly, unless it has changed lately, all Fins have some schooling in
Finnish and Swedish, the two national languages.

In the case of the German-speaking area of Belgium this would mean
*two*national languages to be learned non-natively, just as Sami
people of Norway
and Finland have to learn Finnish and Swedish non-natively. In these cases I
would hope to see a regional educational requirement that makes German
mandatory for everyone in that part of Belgium and Sami mandatory for
everyone living in regions in which Sami is official. Similarly, both
Frisian and Dutch ought to be required of everyone living in *Fryslân and in
officially Frisian-speaking areas of Groningen.

At the same time, people ought to be educated away from seeing this as a
burden toward seeing it as a privilege and a useful extra skill. This could
be enhanced by paying workers a language bonus if they are conversant in
another national language, and another one for English if this is relevant.
(This is done for instance in California where you go up one rung on the pay
scale if you can use Spanish in working with the public, in relevant places
also for predominant immigrant languages such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Khmer,
Lao, Russian, Somali, Amharic or Tigrinya.)

Of course, then there is the legal element. Businesses that advertise
themselves as offering bilingual French and Dutch (or trilingual with
English added) service could be reported, sued and/or fined for false
advertising if they don't deliver what they advertise. It can be argued that
this advertising entices certain customers who then discover that the
advertised service is not available, as was the case in a couple of your
experiences.

If Brussels is officially French and Dutch speaking there has to be some
sort of reenforcement and incentive, or else you might as well bite the
bullet and make it officially French speaking

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 21:11:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:11:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JUN.2008.141128.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]

Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com> wrote that

> It is by Friedrcih Engels (that very Engels who co-authored "Das Kapital"
> among others) who


Friedrich Engels, while he co-authored a number of works - including the
pamphlet "Communist Maifesto" -- with Karl Marx, who I believe is the sole
author of Das Kapital. And compared with whom I believe (in my humble
literary / aesthetic opinion) Engels is a MUCH lesser writer. ... But maybe
a better linguist! (He certainly would have to be a better linguist
than a shared political grandson, Josef Dzhugashvili aka Stalin, whose
lingistic works were almost mandatory citations in all linguistic works
produced in the Soviet Union for 25 years.

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 14:16:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:16:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.071640.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.23 (02) [E]

Hi all

Hugo, I've been considering walking the el Camino de Santiago now for a few
years and look forward to your piece on the Jacobspad.

Elsie

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 14:21:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:21:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.24 (02) [E]
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.23 (05) [E]

Dear Roger,

I am very aware of the complex situation in and around Brussels and I fully
comprehend the Flemsih point of view because as Low Saxon speakers with a
Danish backround my family went through the same historical discrimination
at the hands of the standart German language as the Flemish experienced at
the hands of the French speakers. I have read articles in e.g. English
newspapers portraying the Flemish municipalities around Brussels as
Flemsish-chauvinist because of the language restrictions (agreed by both
Flemings and Wallons) but I wonder what they would say if more and more
French speakers would move to Dover and surroundings who refuse to learn any
English and setting up their own communities apart from the rest. Then
suddenly the same newspapers will cry "foul"....

At the weekend I had a consultative meeting with one of the representatives
of the Danish and Frisian party in Sleswick-Holsten (to use the previous
English name for that very state here which resembles also much more the Low
Saxon and Frisian version of the state name then the German name often
copied by English texts these days) discussing plans over a Light Rail
network and we held the whole meeting in Low Saxon although we could have
chosen Danish or German, too. But it seemed more natural to us to use one of
our Regional languages and certainly not German. However, later I thought
once again we proofed that there is no such thing as educated and peasant
languages, we discussed complex scientific issues and we never had the
feeling we where lacking expressions, if no native word existed for an
expression we simply imported the Danish, German, Latin or English one but
that never altered the character of our language. People who describe any
language as uneducated simply discriminate on a big scale, also often
against their own forefathers who probably spoke one of those peasant
languages themselves at one point....

Groeten vun

Helge

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 14:23:43 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:23:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.24 (03) [E]
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]

Concerning the pronunciation of place names in the Rhinland area (incl. Low
Franconian) please also check:

http://www.genealogienetz.de/vereine/wgff/aachen/Rheinische_Ortsnamen_in_aelterer_Orthographie.pdf

A few more place-names could be added as e.g Reuschenberg near Neuss which
is locally "Röscheberch" and Neuss itself might belong to this group because
it is locally pronounced "Nüüss", however the written Dutch form was
actually "Nuys" as in "Van Nuys" in Los Angeles. Kleinenbroich is actually
"Kleenebrök" in the local dialect.

Helge
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 15:51:02 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:51:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.24 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.085102.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Projects

Dear Lowlanders,

Our Toms and I have been active.

In our Gallery (http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/), Tom Carty (nó Tomas O'
Carthaigh mar a thugtar air) added another one of his poems in Irish ("Amach
a Tháinig Siad") and English ("Out They Came"), and I added my German ("Sie
kamen hervor") and Low Saxon ("Vör Tüüg kemen se") translations to it. Other
poems may follow. So watch that space!

Specifically for the new history presentation (
http://lowlands-l.net/history/), Tom Mc Rae added a preface to his guided
tour through Edinburgh. I dare say together they make a fine contribution
and a useful guide to that lovely city through a native son's eyes. No
wonder this is one of our most visited pages, visited from all corners of
the world. Like our Andrys (who recently added a Fryslân travel description
to our Travel presentation: http://lowlands-l.net/travels/), Tom put his
impressions during a visit to his native stomping ground to good use by
sharing some of it with the world.

As the saying goes: "Absence makes the heart grow fonder." Emigrants,
including but not limited to those that left for other countries, tend to
count among the most appreciative people when it comes to their native
places, cultures and languages, especially when they are at a time of life
when homecoming is the general theme for them. Now this would be a great
topic for artistic outlets!

I am preparing our traditions presentation, a repository for all sorts of
things under the topics "folk" and "traditional" with a Lowlands focus. *All
* of us have something to contribute to this. For instance, if you are not a
Lowlander by birth, you could write about your first encounter with and
perception of anything traditionally Lowlandic, can share what you have
learned. Say, for instance, you are Brazilian or Japanese or Arabic or
Russian; you could share your observations, impressions and reactions
regarding Lowlands traditions with your people in your languages in your own
languages.

I know that lots and lots of people out there are interested in this sort of
thing. So please think about it and share it under this rubric. Just send it
to me. If you are not sure, just write to me and consult with me. If you
need help I might be able to hook you up with the right persons.

This applies to all our presentations published so far:

   - *Anniversary*
   http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/
   - *Travels*
   http://lowlands-l.net/travels/
   - *Gallery*
   http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/
   - *Beyond the Pale*
   http://lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/
   - *Water under The Bridge*
   http://lowlands-l.net/history/

Please bear in mind that the number of daily visits to these presentations
keeps on growing. Visitors truly come from all over the world, and they
learn about our areas of interest.

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 21:57:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:57:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.24 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.145749.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.24 (02) [E]

The Flemish-Brabantish municipalities at the outskirt of Brussels do their
best for preserving the use of the Dutch-language. Social threath (called
the Brussels expansion "stain") comes from internal immigrants, mainly
French speaking people from Wallonia and Brussels, seeking a place to live
close to the capital, but not downtown nor in the appartment blocs of the
agglomeration.

One of the activities of my municipality Steenokkerzeel is organizing
courses of Dutch for non-Dutch speakers.
Some illustrations from the municipal quarterly magazine I got in today
("Den Beiaard", Zomer 2008, Vlaamse Gemeente Steenokkerzeel)

- publicity in Dutch, French and English for the course:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/st2.jpg

- a brief report of the closure of past schoolyear:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/st1.jpg

I think the main thing is not the ruling by law. The main thing is
motivating people for recognizing the benefits and investing in the
efforts. Just this: one gets a dozen of people motivated, but one doesn't
reach hundreds of others.

Regards,
Roger

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 21:59:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:59:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.24 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.145944.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.24 (03) [E]

Was the interactive site "Forvo" already known here? It's about
pronouncing words by native speakers of all kind of languages

http://www.forvo.com/

Ingmar

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 25 02:29:13 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:29:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.24 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.192913.0700.>

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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.23 (02) [E]

To: Hugo
From: Andrys
Subject: History

Hey Hugo

> Fred and Andrys as well as others might like to know that there is now
> an official starting point for the Camino de Santiago in Groningen -
> apparently recently opened (inaugurated) by Cardinal Simonis. You can
> see details of it on www.jacobspad.nl <http://www.jacobspad.nl/>,
> I completed the Camino between St Jean de Pied de Port and Santiago at
> the end of April and from there went to the Netherlands and walked for
> about 10 days following the Wad en Wierdenpad to Nieuwe Schans and then
> a further 80km or so of the Noaberspad along the German/Dutch border.

Thanks for that -  brilliant stuff. I'm still enamoured with starting in
Sint Jacobi, if only for the name, but I guess all roads lead to Santiago!
And according to De Stichting Jabikspad Fryslan (www.jabikspaad.nl/), it is
the (or maybe an) official Dutch route. As a compromise, I wonder if we
could blaze a trail between Uithuizen and Zwarte Haan, via Lauwersoog and
Pieterburen? A superb part of the world to traipse around in, don't you
agree?

Congrats on your major hikes in Spain and The Netherlands. Impressive stuff,
both parts. The Dollard - I'm intending to have a look around there in
September. You've been inspirational, Hugo.

Cheers, Andrys

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 25 21:12:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:12:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JUN.2008.141247.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Hi, Sandy!
>
> This is all interesting stuff. You wrote about German signing for
> "toilet":
>
>    o    shaking a telephone receiver at the side of the head while
> mouthing "shhh" (this strikes us British as a very strange and
> intriguing sign indeed!);
>
> My immediate reaction to this description was that it means "Someone
> is calling me (on the phone) ... but not really, you know."  Of
> course, we need to remind the youngsters among us that all telephones
> used to have landlines and were in certain rooms of houses (typically
> hallways), so that people usually had to leave to make or receive
> calls. The shaking receiver sign may mean "ringing telephone". The
> "shhh" sign may be a classifier for "taboo replacement" (saying it in
> place of something that ought not be said). I have no idea if any of
> this is factual. All I can say is that the sign didn't seem strange to
> me when I read your description. It would be interesting to see if the
> "shhh" sign is used for other euphemisms as well.

You have to be careful, of course, as there's never any guarantee in
sign languages that a sign or facial expression means what it looks
like, unless you're interpreting it through the grammar of the sign
language.

I don't know what the "shhh" mouthing means in DGS (or ASL either). In
BSL it expresses something like the idea of existence. For example,
there's the sign for "there". If you add to this the "shhh" mouthing, it
means something like "it was actually there".

But sometimes the combination doesn't work in a way that's clear to me.
For example, there's the BSL sign for "wait". Sign this with the "shhh"
classifier and it means "not yet". I'm not sure I see how "wait" +
"exists" comes to mean "not yet": perhaps it's purely idiomatic.

I'm not sure how interesting this is to other Lowlanders, but if you
feel like having a bit of a think, then here's some more semantic
data...

Some mouthings seem to just go with particular signs, but other typical
concepts that can be added to a wide range of signs by particular
mouthings in BSL are "intense", "unsatisfactory" and "as normal". This
is without getting into simultaneous qualifiers that can be added by
cheeks, eyes, and suchlike.

Those three, executed simultaneously with a hand sign result in meanings
like:

walk + as normal = just walking along minding my own business
drive + as normal = driving along without a care in the world

poor thing + unsatisfactory = patronising
a small amount + unsatisfactory = a disappointing amount
to clean + unsatisfactory = to clean up something revolting
mistake + intense = just have to put up with it
work + intense = very intense, demanding work
recently + intense = just a moment ago
expect + intense = expecting any minute now

This is of course just one of the things that go up to explaining the
question, often asked by non-signers, of how sign language interpreters
seem to be able to interpret so many spoken words with so few signs.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 25 22:22:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:22:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JUN.2008.152211.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Marcus wrote the other day:

Denn dor mööt wi vun utgahn, dat Selbstbild hängt kuum vun de Realität af.
Wat een glöövt, wat een is. Wüllt man blot an de Lüüd ut Pomerode in
Brasilien denken. De kemen ut Pommern. Aver in Brasilien weren se mank de
Brasilianers de 'Düütschen'. Un 'Düütsche' fiert Oktoberfest, dat weet doch
de ganze Welt. Un so hebbt de Lüüd ut Pomerode anfungen, Oktoberfest to
fiern. Ok wenn dat in Pommern wohrschienlich bet op den hüdigen Dag noch
keen Oktoberfest geven hett.

Essentially, he says that self-identification of enclaves of transplanted
ethnic minorities often changes due to internalizing or owning initially
alien broad, stereotypical expectations. He gives the adaptation of the
people of Pomerode in Brazil to stereotypical "German," actually Bavarian,
symbolism such as celebrating Oktoberfest, which does not belong to the
traditional North German culture of their Pomeranian ancestors.

This is most certainly true. In English-speaking countries outside Europe
this can be seen in people with Scottish heritage, mostly of Lowlands
heritage, celebrating Gàidhealtachd culture, thus Highlands culture. Most of
them, like most people of non-Scottish backgrounds, aren't the wiser,
assuming that anything Gaelic is more Scottish than anything else, because
it's Celtic (even though Gaelic is not the original Celtic language of
Scotland).

Much of this phenomenon has to do with the general practice of ignoring
regional features while thinking only in terms of countries. American media
created and still perpetuate the association of "German" with "Bavarian,"
and this has spread around the world. Anyone from Germany is thus expected
to be some type of Bavarian. (I wish I had a dollar for every time I was
asked what I was planning to do for Oktoberfest and for Fasching, and people
quickly change the topic when I explain that those are not part of my
heritage. No details please!) In the process of culture loss, descendants of
immigrants from Germany, *anywhere* in Germany, acquire these false cultural
attributes if they feel inclined to do what they think is preserving their
heritage. Much of this has to do with their parents and grandparents not
teaching them better and/or the local community of immigrants from their
ancestral region being too small or being non-assertive.

This is what typically happens in the case of Low Saxon language and
culture, unless they are predominant in an area (such as in some communities
in the US Midwest). People from Northern Germany and from the Eastern
Netherlands typically integrate into the German and Dutch immigrant
communities respectively, and they tend to join German and Dutch
associations respectively, if they join any. Since they are bilingual to
begin with, they typically lose their Low Saxon proficiency with the next
generation, and their ancestral culture is rarely or never featured in any
activities. People of North German background then start wearing *Lederhosen
* and *Dirndl*, dancing the *Schuhplattler *and celebrating Oktoberfest.

The few Low Saxon clubs that there are are typically sub-organizations of
German associations. While their members came from Germany or are
descendants of such, too close an association with, and certainly
integration in German associations seems to be the beginning of the end.
Before you know it, Bayuvarianization or at least loss of Low Saxon heritage
is a *fait accompli*. I know of such subordinate associations in two
American cities, and hardly any member can actually speak or even read Low
Saxon, and some wouldn't know *Matjes* from *Weißwurst *if their lives
depended on it.

Preservation thus seems to require separation (which does not mean that
people can't be members of both associations.) In my opinion, it would make
a lot more sense if Low Saxon speakers from Germany and the Netherlands and
their descendants banded together. Among other things, this is the result of
thinking in terms of countries instead of linguistic and cultural regions
when it comes to minorities. When it comes to majorities, however,
international associations are commonplace, such as German, Austrian and
Swiss immigrants coming together in German language associations. Why can't
the same be done in cases of languages that do not have national status?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 25 23:21:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:21:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JUN.2008.162123.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: [LLL] Morphology? Lexicology? Semantics?

 Hei alle sammen (to borrow from another list I'm on [Sorry Reinhard])

Being that I am a linguistics-minded person, I've always wondered about the
semantic considerations and origins of the following scenarios:

Two people are walking down a street. One sees that a house finch has been
injured. This person says:

"Poor little bird(ie)!"

The other says:

"that's quite a blow for such a small bird."

Being that, at least in Norwegian, I've seen evidence of both adjectives
being present in Germanic languages, what's the origin of the terms small
and little? Where did we get the semantic differences between the so-called
poor, defenseless little ones and the simple size of the small ones?
Ben

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 14:08:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:08:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (01) [E/LS]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Marcus wrote the other day:
>
> Denn dor mööt wi vun utgahn, dat Selbstbild hängt kuum vun de Realität af.
> Wat een glöövt, wat een is. Wüllt man blot an de Lüüd ut Pomerode in
> Brasilien denken. De kemen ut Pommern. Aver in Brasilien weren se mank de
> Brasilianers de 'Düütschen'. Un 'Düütsche' fiert Oktoberfest, dat weet doch
> de ganze Welt. Un so hebbt de Lüüd ut Pomerode anfungen, Oktoberfest to
> fiern. Ok wenn dat in Pommern wohrschienlich bet op den hüdigen Dag noch
> keen Oktoberfest geven hett.
>
> Essentially, he says that self-identification of enclaves of transplanted
> ethnic minorities often changes due to internalizing or owning initially
> alien broad, stereotypical expectations.
>
It's extreme in transplanted minorities, but it's true for non-transplanted,
too, as I said in that post. Where I am living, you can go to Oktoberfest
the next village (Bavarian tradition), or you can choose to go to Fasching
(Bavarian again) or to Karneval (Rhenish tradition).  But try asking anybody
about Faslom. Most won't know. Faslom is the Northern German counterpart of
Fasching/Fasnacht/Karneval/Carnival. As far as I know, it is (or was
traditionally) spread over most of the Low Saxon language area. Some
villages still have Faslom, but most have lost it and few people from the
villages that lost it will know about it. Well, this loss is partly cause of
stereotypes, but mostly cause of selectiveness in the media. You are
celebrating the festivities you know. Karneval, Fasching and Oktoberfest are
covered by the media, Faslom is not. An even more annoying example is
Halloween. Children in Germany are celebrating Halloween. The media are
pushing it. We've got dozens of special days, where children can go from
door to door and get sweets, in German folklore. New Year's day, St.
Martin's day and many others, and Faslom does know going from door to door
too (well, traditionally it's eggs and Wurst for Faslom and not sweets). But
still the old customs get lost and this is compensated with American
culture.

My original point was the people of Brandenburg not keeping up their Low
Saxon heritage, cause they got told (not explicitly told, but implicitly
they adopted the message) they were "Ossis", people from Eastern Germany.
This, together with additional influence from the 3.5 million people city
Berlin, made them change their Mark-Brandenburgian language and identity to
a mixture of "outskirts of Berlin" and "German Democratic Republic" language
and identity. This is a mixture of "country thinking" and "cultural erosion
through media" (national media of the former GDR, actually). But it's not
always "country thinking" and media influence. Another example from the Low
Saxon region: The word "Moin". It was originally a greeting formula from
Frisia. I am not sure, where it originated, in Eastern or in Northern
Frisia. It is common in both Eastern Friesland plus surrounding areas and in
Schleswig-Holstein [where Northern Friesland is situated], but less so in
the area between those areas (which are not Frisian). I guess it first
spread under the Frisians and than went on to spread to the surrounding "Low
Saxon/Northern German" areas. I am living in the area between Northern and
Eastern Friesland. Saying "Moin" is quite common here. But not as common as
in Schleswig-Holstein and in the Eastern Friesland/Oldenburg area. For
example in Oldenburg or Kiel you would say "Moin" when entering a shop and
nobody would mind. In my area area you can say "Moin" too, but it would be
more common to say "Guten Tag" and if you say "Moin" the shopman won't say
anything, but at least he will notice that you used another greeting formula
than the standard one. (A Bavarian shopman maybe will react with "Woas
willst, du Saupreiß!?" ;-) ) In less formal situations (well, a visit in the
shop is not _that_ formal, but at least more formal than speaking with
people you know well), "Moin" is very common here too. It wasn't in earlier
times. In the old times (when Low Saxon was the language of the people and
of all people) the people said "Goden Dag" (or "Go'n Dag").
"Moin" didn't spread through any national attitude and not through media
(some media helped, but they weren't the driving force as with Halloween),
"Moin" was spread by cultural identity. The Northern identity. It's an weak
identity when compared to the national identity, but it exists. It's based
on common culture and common language of Northern Germany (but it's not like
many people were aware of this, it's mostly a diffuse identity). It's much
stronger at the coast than in the Southern parts of  Northern Germany. And I
think this Northern identity is responsible for the relatively good standing
of Low Saxon at the coast when compared to the South (relatively, in
absolute terms both Northern and Southern Low Saxon do very bad in
maintaining currency compared to Southern German dialects, my explanation
for this is, that Low Saxon is so different from Standard German, that it
doesn't allows to switch between "deep dialect" and "standard language"
steplessly. Bavarians can use words, spellings and grammatical constructions
more distant or less distant from the standard. Bavarian and Standard German
are able to be combined. If you combine Low Saxon and the Standard language,
it doesn't feel right. You have to use the one or the other, but cannot
combine both. Therefore the people have to learn two separate language
instead of only two registers of one language. And from reasons of
efficiency [why learn two languages, when one is enough to master all
situations?] they drop Low Saxon. Other languages, like Breton or Welsh
languages, do better, despite too being "not necessary", cause they have a
"language of its own" identity bonus. Low Saxon doesn't get this bonus,
cause the people get told, it is a dialect only. So, Low Saxon is trapped
between "too far apart from German to coexist as variants of one language"
and "too close to be fully recognized". [Well, Brandenburg Low Saxon and the
Berlin regiolect were able to be combined and that was even more deadly for
the dialect, so I could be wrong.]).
Back to the Northern identity: The Northern identity manifests in memes like
"Fischköppe" (Northerners being called, but also calling themselves "fish
heads"), or a "Rock attitude" (the Rocker subculture and Heavy Metal are
more widespread in Northern Germany than in the south of Germany, as far as
I could observe this). In metal and Rock Northern Germany has much in common
with Scandinavia. They (or "We") even identify them/our-selves with the
Vikings. Or think of Hip Hop bands like Fettes Brot or Fischmob performing
songs in Low Saxon. Like the song "Nordisch by nature". Northern identity
pure. The band Torfrock even combines Viking rock and Low Saxon. This
Northern identity is my hope (actually my only hope) for the future of Low
Saxon. If we could place Low Saxon in the media and apply some coolness to
it, there is a chance, that the carriers of the Northern identity will
re-adopt Low Saxon as an expression of their Northern identity.
Identity is the key. Switzerland is the best example. Everywhere in Germany
the dialects are declining. The latest study of the Gesellschaft für
deutsche Sprache speaks of 48 % of the Germans using dialect (they published
no numbers for single regions, but the number in the North obviously is much
lower). In Switzerland, 93 % are using dialect. It only depends on the
attitude which is shown towards "using dialect". The Swiss look on dialect
as an expression of their Swiss national  identity.
Combine the Northern identity with mass media (TV is the most important,
cause it is an "lean back medium". You have to actively _decide_ to consume
print, but you only have to lean back to consume TV. Therefore TV has the
most impact on society.) and there is a chance to save Low Saxon. Without
that, Low Saxon will disappear.

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 14:10:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:10:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JUN.2008.071040.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.25 (03) [E]

My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.

In the Scandinavian North Germanic languages the usage of litt etc. and
små is like in English.
In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
word for both little and small.

It looks like the difference between much and many.
In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.

So here too, Scandinavian may have at least encouraged the English usage.

Ingmar

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: [LLL] Morphology? Lexicology? Semantics?

 Hei alle sammen (to borrow from another list I'm on [Sorry Reinhard])

Being that I am a linguistics-minded person, I've always wondered about the
semantic considerations and origins of the following scenarios:

Two people are walking down a street. One sees that a house finch has been
injured. This person says:

"Poor little bird(ie)!"

The other says:

"that's quite a blow for such a small bird."

Being that, at least in Norwegian, I've seen evidence of both adjectives
being present in Germanic languages, what's the origin of the terms small
and little? Where did we get the semantic differences between the so-called
poor, defenseless little ones and the simple size of the small ones?
Ben
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 15:33:04 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:33:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.26 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JUN.2008.083304.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]

What is that something to be said for calling German etc. "South Germanic"
instead of West Germanic?

I can imagine a few things myself of course: the High German consonant
shift, dative and accusative pronouns (mir-mich), pronouns ending in -r
(er, wir, ihr), a part of lexicon, e.a.

But what we should not forget is that present day German is much closer
related to Dutch and Low Saxon than English is. A Dutchman can understand
German without previous learning, so can a Low Saxon, but they don't have
a clue when an Englishman is speaking (or writing) without having learned
his language first.
It would rather be a division between Continental West Germanic, including
German, and Insular West Germanic, including English.

So I wonder whether we should stick to relations that existed maybe 1000
or more years ago to classify these languages, Reinhard.

Ingmar

Reinhard:

(I personally use "German" for the varieties other than "Low ...", and I
think there is something to be said for the proposal to consider
them "South
Germanic" rather than considering them a group within West Germanic.)

I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The
question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian varieties
from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch"
and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Projects

Ingmar,

Sure you can classify languages in several ways and at various points in
time, taking into account also mutual influences. A different approach might
put English and French into one pot because of strong mutual influences,
never mind that they belong to different sub-families. Later time layers,
however, don't change the fact that there are longstanding relationships
between the "Lowlands" languages that these days most people are not made
aware of, and that's what we're about here. Furthermore, we're concerned
about longstanding common cultural and identity traits and histories of
interaction that are "typically" Lowlandic, while forums that paint with
larger brushes include not only German but also the North Germanic sphere,
as do you in constructing Middelsprake.

A Dutchman can understand
German without previous learning, so can a Low Saxon,

I doubt the "without previously learning" part. Exposure is a type of
learning situation, and people in the Netherlands and Northern Belgium are
regularly exposed to German, alone through the media. Low Saxon speakers in
Germany are of course brought up with German (as Scots speakers are brought
up with English). However, it doesn't work like that the other way around.
Most German speakers without Afrikaans, Dutch and Low Saxon exposure
understand next to nothing when Afrikaans or Dutch are spoken, and the more
resourceful among them will figure out a bit from written Afrikaans or
Dutch. They understand a bit more of Low Saxon of Germany, but mostly
because of Germanization, especially in highly Germanized varieties these
days. They have a much harder time with authentically written and spoken Low
Saxon. North Germans with some Low Saxon exposure understand Afrikaans and
Dutch better, those with more exposure or knowledge understand a lot more
and need just a bit of adjustment time to begin understanding spoken
Afrikaans and Dutch. Common learning of English has facilitated much of
this. It equips southern speakers of German for understanding otherwise
incomprehensible basic Afrikaans, Dutch and Low Saxon words such as
*later*("later") and
*redig* ("ready") in context. But then there are even greater multitudes of
false friends that lead to misunderstanding of idiomatic expressions.

Ingmar, as you know, some people pick up other languages more easily than
others. Much of it has to do with attitude, level of interest, and
experience. For such people formal studies are not necessary to acquire
listening and reading comprehension. You and I obviously belong to that
minority, for we are able to pick up comprehension skills even across
language group and family lines. I can understand Spanish (Castilian) well
enough to follow Spanish language TV talk shows, but I've never had a formal
Spanish lesson in my life. I had a few (bad) formal European Portuguese
classes and lived in a "Portuguese street" (full of immigrants from Madeira)
in Australia. This allowed me to "figure out" Castilian, Catalan and
Galician with ease, and in the meantime exposure has provided me with at
least some Spanish writing and speaking skills. Similarly, I have had two
years of university-level Russian, and this allows me to "figure out" other
Slavic languages. As I said, this has to do with my interest level and
experience, which provide me with confidence. I am sure it's the same in
your case. Furthermore, when I was a kid I started understanding English
very quickly, more quickly than the rest of my class, and this was mostly
because I immediately saw the connections with Low Saxon and adjusted my
approach accordingly, whereas my classmates approached it from a purely
German angle, aided by our teachers' lack of Low Saxon skills.

However, these "abilities" should not fool us into assuming that other
people can do the same, for they can't. We should not be led to make
generalizing statements on this basis. I have done informal tests with
interested South Germans and Austrians (all of them with good English
skills). They could only follow simple Low Saxon sentences if I pronounced
them very, very slowly, and even then they frequently misunderstood
something in them. When I did the same with Dutch, they understood less but
got the general gist. And I'm only talking about simple sentences. I bet you
you even would understand very little if someone spoke to you in authentic
Bavarian German (in which I include non-Alemannic dialects of Austria and
Northern Italy), less even in authentic Alemannic. They all agreed that they
would have understood even less had they not had any knowledge of English.
The average German has little exposure to Dutch and understands little
Dutch, while the average Netherlander and North Belgian has a lot of
exposure to German and understands a lot of German. However, there was one
person among them that had a much easier time. According to what she told
me, this was because she paid more attention to the English angle.
Furthermore, she was the only one who had taken some basic linguistics
classes, including an introductory phonology class in which sound shifts
were covered fairly intensively. So this seems to have enhanced here
analytical skills.

My point is that, when we talk about mutual comprehensibility we need to
make a distinction between inherent and acquired features, and we must be
aware that "learning" includes not only formal education but mere exposure
as well.

Again: you can use different types of language typology and approaches. The
one we use here is largely historically based, in great part because we deal
with history and traditional culture as well. This as well as typology is a
matter of approach.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 15:50:45 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:50:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (04) [E]
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From: JRodenburg at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]

I know of such subordinate associations in two American cities, and hardly
any member can actually speak or even read Low Saxon, and some wouldn't know
*Matjes* from *Weißwurst *if their lives depended on it.


Ron, what cities are these? Do the clubs have web sites? Would be another
place to start to "remember" our north German heritage. John

Viele Grüße aus Illinois
John Rodenburg
Rodenburg (Tarmstedt, Amt Rotenburg (Wümme), Hannover)
Brunkhorst (Stemmen, Amt Rotenburg (Wümme), Hannover)
Werner (Langen, Hesse-Darmstadt),
Steinke (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
Krause (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
Schröder (Warsow, Mecklenburg-Schwerin),
Meyer (Eitzendorf, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Hinkeldey (Wechold, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Zum Mallen (Schierholz, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Röhrdanz (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)

----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]

Leve Ron,

I can really imagine the sterotype perceptions you encounter in North
America, I had the same experience when I spend half a year travelling in
North America many years ago, by checking my address or passport they all
asked me about the beerfest, I simply didn't know what they were talking
about, explaining that there is plenty of beer in Northern Germany but no
particular fest didn't really help...I quickly realized what my family was
on about by proclaiming themselfs as rather Danish than German because
Sleswick-Holsten resembles by landscape, traditions and culture Denmark a
lot more than Bavaria with what I was being associated. So after
experiencing this misconception too frequently I told people (when asked
about my home) that I am from the border of Denmark and Germany, that
derailed them immediatly...Tonight we will have a football game where Spain
vs. Russia and if Spain would win the stereotype conception is that the
whole country will go wild, but I am afraid that celebrations in Donostia
and Girona will be a lot more muted, if any at all....the same will probably
valid for Grozny, Kyzyl or Sortavala in case Russia wins...

Groeten,

Helge

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Culture

Thanks a lot, John and Helge.

John, I don't really want to name the associations publicly for "political"
or rather "diplomatic" reasons, because this issue comes with some baggage.

I quite agree with you, Helge. Once in a while I have to mention with
connection with the Netherlands to make Americans, Canadians and Australians
understand. But all but a few seem to consider that too much confusing
detail.  It's easier to deal with country-based stereotypes. It's not as
though Europeans don't have the same tendency. The idea(l) of "one country,
one ethnicity, one language" is still very much alive and kicking about
happily.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: By the way, I have to apologize to whoever I once told that Helge was
only a men's name. Recently I came across it as a German woman's name. Not
that gender *really *matters, but sometimes one wants to know which is
applicable: "he" or "she". ;-)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 19:05:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:05:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.26 (05) [D/E]
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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

Beste allen,

In oude Oostendse teksten vind ik zowel "cleene" (klein) als "smal".
Voorbeeld: "de smalle zeesteden" = de kleine zeesteden.

Nu zijn in het Oostends (en in het Nederlands) "klein" (little) en "smal"
(narrow).
Wat smal is, doet natuurlijk aan klein denken.
De Oostendse uitspraak is "smol" (net als bolke, kolk, volke ... voor balk,
kalk, valk ...).
Voor "veel" kennen we "vele" en "menig" (many). "Enig" beantwoordt dan aan
"any".

Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

 Beste Ingmar,

Du schreyvst:

> My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
> originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.
> In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
> and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
> word for both little and small.
I'm not sure about a Scandinavian influence here, because in our Low Saxon
you may use 'small' the same way like in English. And in Standard German we
use terms like e.g. 'schmale Kost', meaning E 'slender diet'= 'small meal'.

> It looks like the difference between much and many.
> In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
> German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.
What about Standard German '(eine) ganze Menge', meaning both 'much' and
'many'?

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

"Little" is not a Scandinavian loan. It goes back to Old English *lýtel* ~ *
lytel*, cf. Old Saxon *luttil*, Old German *luzzil* (> dialect. *lützel*),
Middle Dutch *luttel* (> *luttel*), Old Norse *lítell*, Gothic *leitils* <
Germanic **lîtilo*. This is a diminutive form based on Old English
*lýt*(cf. Old Saxon
*lut* >  Modern *l**ütt*, cf. Scandinavian *lítt* < Germanic **lut ~ *lût*)
which gave dialectical English *lite* 'small', 'insignificant'. Another
derivation with the meaning 'small' are Old Saxon *luttik* (> *l**üttig*),
Old Frisian *littich* and Old German *luzzîg.*

My theory is that, if not semantically intended from the outset, the
diminutive form favored the semantic inclusion of "cuteness" (e.g., "the
(cute/poor) little bird" vs "the small bird" = "small in size").
"Little-ness" tends to be associated with vulnerability, hence appealing to
one's protector instinct with "cuteness," while "small" refers to size
without this emotional appeal. "Little" is therefore often associated with
"poor" in the sense of "pitiable." In "poor", semantic inclusion of
"destitute" and "deprived" and in extension "pitiable" seems to have come
with importation of Norman *pover ~ pore ~ pour ~ povere ~ poevere ~ puvre*,
since all Romance cognates can be used in the sense of "pitiable" as well,
just as they do the Germanic equivalents.

*Klein* for 'small' and 'little' is normal in Dutch and German. There are
some Low Saxon dialects that use *kleen* [klɛˑɪn] ~ *klein* [klaˑɪn], but
most use *l**ütt* [lʏt]. In all three languages you can use *arm* the same
way as you use "poor", i.e. with the extended sense of 'pitiable'. (In the
very north, Low Saxon *Stackel* can be used for 'pitiable person', probably
derived from Jutish *stakkel*, related to the adjective
*stakkels*'pitiable', possibly derived from an old sense of "cripple"
or perhaps
"toddler" = "someone that staggers about").

In some Low Saxon dialects you can use *pover* strictly in the sense of
'poor' = 'indigent'. This is a French loan, a more recent one than English
"poor". Note that this can *not* be used in the sense of 'pitiable'.

English "small" is related to German *schmal* and Low Saxon *smaal*, both
usually meaning 'narrow' but, as Jonny points out above, 'small' in some
idiomatic expressions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 19:24:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:24:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (06) [E]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Anyone from Germany is thus expected to be some type of Bavarian. (I wish I
had a dollar for every time I was asked what I was planning to do for
Oktoberfest and for Fasching, and people quickly change the topic when I
explain that those are not part of my heritage.

Ron and All;

It's not part of my heritage either, but I still like Oktoberfests.  They're
even bigger in Australia.  The local German Association might organise them
but the majority of people enjoying the day understand "Bier" and
"Bratwurst", and that's about it. Including many members of the German
Association!

For most non-Germans, it isn't a cultural issue, it's a beer, food and
entertainment issue.  If you introduce them to a Saxon beer-drinking
occasion, they'll be in to that too.

Paul Finlow-Bates
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Culture

Hi, Paul!

Of course Northerners don't necessarily *boycott* Oktoberfest and Fasching,
and, as you said, some people will attend *any* function that has boozing as
its main pursuit. What we are talking about here is resentment or rejection
of being included in a stereotype based on a culture not one's own.

I'm sure there are some English people (however few they may be ... ;-) )
that go out of their way to eat haggis and wear kilts (well, at least the
male royals do for symbolic reasons). That's one thing. It's another thing
if you move to an "exotic" country and people expect you to attend Burns
Nicht and wear a kilt while piping in the haggis.

Marcus, how about writing a piece about Low Saxon Faslom for the new
"Traditions" presentation? I did not grow up with it and wonder if it
belongs mainly to Roman Catholic communities. I take it the name *Falsom* is
related to *Fastelavend*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 20:20:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:20:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.26 (07) [E]
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From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: æ

Dear folks,

  I still wander what the origin of the Jutnish definite article æ is.
I've been studying Old Norse declesions and I've found nothing about this
word form. Where did they get that word from?

  Thank you so much 4 your patience.


     Ívison.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 20:22:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:22:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (08) [E]
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (01) [E/LS]

Beste Marcus,

at first: another excellent posting of yours! Worth to give a critical
answer...!

You wrote:

*Back to the Northern identity: The Northern identity manifests in memes
like "Fischköppe" (Northerners being called, but also calling themselves
"fish heads"), or a "Rock attitude" (the Rocker subculture and Heavy Metal
are more widespread in Northern Germany than in the south of Germany, as far
as I could observe this). In metal and Rock Northern Germany has much in
common with Scandinavia. They (or "We") even identify them/our-selves with
the Vikings. Or think of Hip Hop bands like Fettes Brot or Fischmob
performing songs in Low Saxon. Like the song "Nordisch by nature". Northern
identity pure. The band Torfrock even combines Viking rock and Low Saxon.
This Northern identity is my hope (actually my only hope) for the future of
Low Saxon.*
**
'Northern idendity' and 'Low Saxon' are different things, as well as Hip Hop
and Metal (the two of them I never would write within one single sentence
*s*).
Having been  in Wacken (meanwhile the world's greatest annual Heavy Metal
festival, in Schleswig-Holstein/Germany; you had mentioned it in a previous
mail) for a couple of times (continuously from 1996 with less than 5,000
visitors till 2002 with more than 50,000!) I didn't feel any smell of LS.
Groups like "In Extremo" became famous with Middle *High* German textes, but
our "Torf-Rockers" never became part of the main actors there, as far as I
remember- they're still our 'local heroes'.

Wacken (standing for the "Mekka" and spirit of *true* Metal fans) is simply
international- you'll find people from Brazil, Southern- and Eastern Europe,
Japan etc. as well as the mentioned Scandinavians. I don't guess that all
these people feel themselves as "Vikings"- as well as I don't ;-)!"
The greater part of Germany's most famous Rock/Heavy Metal bands are
originating from the Western regions ("Blind Guardian" from Krefeld [Lower
Rhine area], "Accept", "Grave Digger" and "Rage" from Essen [Ruhrgebiet],
"Edguy" from Schwaben etc.). Okay- "Helloween" comes from Hamburg, "The
Scorpions" and some more from Hanover.

A 'Northern' identity is something different and as I fear, not appropriate
to save our Low Saxon 'identity'.

Die hard ;-)!

Jonny Meibohm

(BTW: Next year I have to visit Wacken once more with my youngest son- in a
moment of carelessnes I have promised it to him. Perhaps it will become a
family event with all my four sons- the oldest one is same aged as you
are...).
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:11:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:11:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.071153.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.26 (03) [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]
>
> What is that something to be said for calling German etc. "South Germanic"
> instead of West Germanic?
>
> I can imagine a few things myself of course: the High German consonant
> shift, dative and accusative pronouns (mir-mich), pronouns ending in -r
> (er, wir, ihr), a part of lexicon, e.a.

I would fundamentally call these things conservatisms that happened to
survive in High German which were lost in the rest of West Germanic or
High German-specifc innovations postdating the definite separation of
the primary branches of the Germanic languages. Take the merger of
accusative and dative pronoun forms. It is clear that such really does
not form a primary-branch type splitting of West Germanic, as Early
Old English actually preserved distinct accusative and date pronouns;
rather such forms actually merged in Late Old English (albeit being
preserved in poetic uses). Hence the merger of accusative and dative
pronouns is likely more just a coincidental and or areal innovation
which High German just happened to not participate in until rather
late (as there are High German dialects which today have merged the
accusative and dative pronouns).

> But what we should not forget is that present day German is much closer
> related to Dutch and Low Saxon than English is. A Dutchman can understand
> German without previous learning, so can a Low Saxon, but they don't have
> a clue when an Englishman is speaking (or writing) without having learned
> his language first.
> It would rather be a division between Continental West Germanic, including
> German, and Insular West Germanic, including English.

>From a synchronic standpoint, I would have to strongly agree. The
Anglic languages, while genetically being unequivocably West Germanic,
have clearly taken a separate path from the rest of West Germanic (and
even the Frisian languages). The matter is that one could consider all
of continental West Germanic and even the Frisian languages to have
formed a Sprachbund in which Anglic was not really included. Hence the
Anglic languages have basically diverged from the rest of West
Germanic while the Low German and High German languages stayed far
more cohesive as a group together.

> So I wonder whether we should stick to relations that existed maybe 1000
> or more years ago to classify these languages, Reinhard.

The matter is that if one is to treat things from a purely genetic
standpoint things are still not so simple. The matter is that neither
the split between Anglo-Frisian and the rest of West Germanic nor the
split between High German and the rest of West Germanic can be really
said to be the fundamental "root-level" split in West Germanic. For
starters, West Germanic already formed a dialect continuum even before
either split occurred in the first place. Secondarily, both splits
basically separated out sections of the existing West Germanic dialect
continuum (and not necessarily even in line with preexisting
isoglosses either), leaving the remainder, the Low German languages,
as being basically paraphyletic. Of the Low German languages, their
common features are more a matter of shared conservatisms and later
shared areal features than really forming any kind of root-level
branch of West Germanic at the genetic level.

> I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The
> question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian
varieties
> from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch"
> and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.

This is one of many reasons to consider the split between High German
and the rest of West Germanic as being overlaid upon preexisting West
Germanic dialect variation rather than as being a true root-node split
of West Germanic

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:14:57 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:14:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.27 (02) [E]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (06) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>

>
> Marcus, how about writing a piece about Low Saxon Faslom for the new
> "Traditions" presentation? I did not grow up with it and wonder if it
> belongs mainly to Roman Catholic communities. I take it the name /Falsom/ is
> related to /Fastelavend/.
>
Yes, Faslom is a form (what do you call "verschliffen" in English?) of
Fastelavend. It is not a catholic festival. Contrary, I believe it is better
described as the Lutheran counterpart of the catholic
Karneval/Fasnacht/Fasching. Its epicenter in modern times is South of
Hamburg in the Lüneburg Heath with offshoots into some other regions, among
them my home area. But historically it was spread in a wider region
(although I don't know whether the customs connected to Faslom were the same
in all regions). There are some villages in my region still having Faslom,
but sadly my own village has lost it (or never had it? I don't know. I don't
know any accounts of Faslom here. Perhaps the village wasn't big enough...).
So I can report second hand only. I don't think, that would make a good
report.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (06) [E]
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (01) [E/LS]

Beste Marcus,
 at first: another excellent posting of yours! Worth to give a critical
answer...!
 You wrote:
 *Back to the Northern identity: The Northern identity manifests in memes
like "Fischköppe" (Northerners being called, but also calling themselves
"fish heads"), or a "Rock attitude" (the Rocker subculture and Heavy Metal
are more widespread in Northern Germany than in the south of Germany, as far
as I could observe this). In metal and Rock Northern Germany has much in
common with Scandinavia. They (or "We") even identify them/our-selves with
the Vikings. Or think of Hip Hop bands like Fettes Brot or Fischmob
performing songs in Low Saxon. Like the song "Nordisch by nature". Northern
identity pure. The band Torfrock even combines Viking rock and Low Saxon.
This Northern identity is my hope (actually my only hope) for the future of
Low Saxon.*
** 'Northern idendity' and 'Low Saxon' are different things, as well as Hip
Hop and Metal (the two of them I never would write within one single
sentence *s*).
 I didn't want to say, that Northern identity and Low Saxon are closely
connected. But Low Saxon is one aspect of the Northern identity (Northern
means Northern German, that I mentioned the "Vikings" didn't mean I wanted
to extend it to Scandinavia, although some sympathy to Scandinavia is
another aspect of this special identity). Of course are Metal, Rock and Hip
Hop different subcultures, but they are to some degree aspects of the
identity. The fraction of "Northern identity carriers" speaking Low Saxon
will not be significantly higher than in the general society, but if you can
establish the equation "Low Saxon = Nordish" carriers of the identity will
be more eager to use (some) Low Saxon than others, cause they try to be
Nordish, if they feel Nordish by identity (just like carriers of Metal
culture accept Middle High German music as cool, cause it is part of their
subculture).

There are dozens of Low Saxons bands in the coastal regions, but I don't
know any (not even one single) in Eastfalia or Brandenburg. The difference
does not correlate to the speaker numbers. There should be at least some
bands in more Southern Saxon regions, if it were only the number of people.
No. The big difference is identity. Low Saxon is "cool" in the north (at
least to some degree), but in the south Low Saxon is not cool. They are even
proud to have lost their ancestral language ("In Hannover we speak the best
and purest High German."). Or if you don't believe the "Low Saxon is cool"
thing, let's say: Low Saxon has a lobby in the north, but not so in the
south. There's a difference in the minds.

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:16:32 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:16:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.27 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.071632.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.26 (07) [E]

> From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
> Subject: æ
>
> Dear folks,
>
>   I still wander what the origin of the Jutnish definite article æ is.
> I've been studying Old Norse declesions and I've found nothing about this
> word form. Where did they get that word from?
>
>   Thank you so much 4 your patience.
>
>      Ívison.

To my knowledge it is of the same origin as the definite suffix in the
rest of North Germanic. The only difference is that the areal
influence of West Germanic (specifically Low Saxon and Frisian)
resulted in it being preposed rather than postposed during the period
where it was still an independent word (and thus it never ended up
becoming a suffix or postclitic).
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:18:50 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:18:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.071850.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.26 (05) [D/E]

Jonny:
What about Standard German '(eine) ganze Menge'?

Ron:
"Little" is not a Scandinavian loan.

Please read carefully: I wrote "...My intuition says that THE USAGE of
small and little in English is originally from Scandinavian"  and  "It
looks like the difference between much and many. >In the Scandinavian
languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas German has only 'viel'
and Dutch 'veel'..."

So yes, of course, German has "Menge" and "manchmal", Dutch has "menig"
etc., and Dutch has "luttel" and these words are related to their English
and Scandinavian equivalents. And schmal and smal are related to small.

But the usage of little/small and much/many in English is the same as in
the Scandinavian languages, but very different from German and Dutch.
Even "few" has its exact counterpart in Scandinavian "få", whereas German
has "wenig" and Dutch "weinig".

In Dutch and German we have but one form for both singular and plural, and
the words used are different from the English and Scandinavian ones:

much = viel (G) / veel (NL)
many = viel (G) / veel (NL)

little = klein (G / NL)
small = klein  (G / NL)

little = wenig (G) / weinig (NL)
few = wenig (G) / weinig (NL)

much = mycket (Swedish) / meget, megen (Danish)
many = många (S) / mange (D)

little = liten (S) / lille, liden (D)
small = små (S / D)

little = lite (S) / lidet (D)
few = få (S / D)

Dutch and German are closely related West-Germanic languages, as can be
seen here, and Low Saxon fits into that picture, too (at least my own LS
dialects and actually most/all LS in the Netherlands) and so does Frisian.

English is a West-Germanic language as well, but once quite strongly
influenced by the Norse (Scandinavian) of the Vikings from Denmark and
Norway.

I think the usage of much/many and little/small/few in English has been
influenced by Scandinavian.
The related words themselves already may have existed in Old English - as
they did in Old German, Old Franconian, Old Saxon etc. - but the way they
are used now is actually typically Scandinavian-like.

That's very interesting, isn't it? Maybe there are more of thes conceiled
Scandinavianism in English?

Ingmar


From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

 Beste Ingmar,

Du schreyvst:

> My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
> originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.
> In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
> and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
> word for both little and small.
I'm not sure about a Scandinavian influence here, because in our Low Saxon
you may use 'small' the same way like in English. And in Standard German we
use terms like e.g. 'schmale Kost', meaning E 'slender diet'= 'small meal'.

> It looks like the difference between much and many.
> In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
> German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.
What about Standard German '(eine) ganze Menge', meaning both 'much' and
'many'?

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

"Little" is not a Scandinavian loan. It goes back to Old English *lýtel* ~
*
lytel*, cf. Old Saxon *luttil*, Old German *luzzil* (> dialect. *lützel*),
Middle Dutch *luttel* (> *luttel*), Old Norse *lítell*, Gothic *leitils* <
Germanic **lîtilo*. This is a diminutive form based on Old English
*lýt*(cf. Old Saxon
*lut* >  Modern *l**ütt*, cf. Scandinavian *lítt* < Germanic **lut ~ *lût*)
which gave dialectical English *lite* 'small', 'insignificant'. Another
derivation with the meaning 'small' are Old Saxon *luttik* (> *l**üttig*),
Old Frisian *littich* and Old German *luzzîg.*

My theory is that, if not semantically intended from the outset, the
diminutive form favored the semantic inclusion of "cuteness" (e.g., "the
(cute/poor) little bird" vs "the small bird" = "small in size").
"Little-ness" tends to be associated with vulnerability, hence appealing to
one's protector instinct with "cuteness," while "small" refers to size
without this emotional appeal. "Little" is therefore often associated with
"poor" in the sense of "pitiable." In "poor", semantic inclusion of
"destitute" and "deprived" and in extension "pitiable" seems to have come
with importation of Norman *pover ~ pore ~ pour ~ povere ~ poevere ~
puvre*,
since all Romance cognates can be used in the sense of "pitiable" as well,
just as they do the Germanic equivalents.

*Klein* for 'small' and 'little' is normal in Dutch and German. There are
some Low Saxon dialects that use *kleen* [klɛˑɪn] ~ *klein* [klaˑɪn], but
most use *l**ütt* [lʏt]. In all three languages you can use *arm* the same
way as you use "poor", i.e. with the extended sense of 'pitiable'. (In the
very north, Low Saxon *Stackel* can be used for 'pitiable person', probably
derived from Jutish *stakkel*, related to the adjective
*stakkels*'pitiable', possibly derived from an old sense of "cripple"
or perhaps
"toddler" = "someone that staggers about").

In some Low Saxon dialects you can use *pover* strictly in the sense of
'poor' = 'indigent'. This is a French loan, a more recent one than English
"poor". Note that this can *not* be used in the sense of 'pitiable'.

English "small" is related to German *schmal* and Low Saxon *smaal*, both
usually meaning 'narrow' but, as Jonny points out above, 'small' in some
idiomatic expressions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:23:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:23:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.27 (05) [E]
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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

The matter with this is that while the Anglic languages are
genetically very much West Germanic, it seems to in many ways
actuallly areally pattern with North Germanic or the most northern Low
German languages rather than with the rest of West Germanic. A lot of
such is likely just coincidental (or still just fuzzy in the way that
areal phenomena tend to be), but the matter still stands that the
Germanic language that has had the most outside influence upon Anglic
is Old Norse, and the only other Germanic languages with really any
significant influence upon it are the West Germanic dialects spoken
along the southeastern coast of the North Sea (which have themselves
been somewhat influenced by the southernmost North Germanic dialects).

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.25 (03) [E]
>
> My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
> originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.
>
> In the Scandinavian North Germanic languages the usage of litt etc. and
> små is like in English.
> In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
> and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
> word for both little and small.
>
> It looks like the difference between much and many.
> In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
> German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.
>
> So here too, Scandinavian may have at least encouraged the English usage.
>
> Ingmar
>
> From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
> Subject: [LLL] Morphology? Lexicology? Semantics?
>
>  Hei alle sammen (to borrow from another list I'm on [Sorry Reinhard])
>
> Being that I am a linguistics-minded person, I've always wondered about
the
> semantic considerations and origins of the following scenarios:
>
> Two people are walking down a street. One sees that a house finch has been
> injured. This person says:
>
> "Poor little bird(ie)!"
>
> The other says:
>
> "that's quite a blow for such a small bird."
>
> Being that, at least in Norwegian, I've seen evidence of both adjectives
> being present in Germanic languages, what's the origin of the terms small
> and little? Where did we get the semantic differences between the
so-called
> poor, defenseless little ones and the simple size of the small ones?
> Ben

----------

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

Just a little correction: Liten is used for the singular, små is for the
plural in Swedish - no difference i meaning otherwise (in contrast to
English)
So it's

en liten bil (a/one small car)
(den) lilla bilen (the small car)
små bilar (small cars)
(de) små bilarna (the small cars)

There is even "smal" which is a loan from Low Saxon, meaning "narrow",
"slim"

Hence the same word originally but in two different forms. One north
germanic, the other a Low Saxon loan - quite a usual phenomenon in the
Scandinavian languages.

Greetings

Wolfram Antepohl

Wolfram Antepohl
Lindesbergsgatan 4
582 53 Linköping
013-125243
073-6002667
wolfram at antepohl.se

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Semantics

Hi, Wolfram!

It's great you joined us in the speakers' corner. Welcome!

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 21:25:00 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:25:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.142500.0700.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.27 (03) [E]

¡ Save Berlin dialect as cultural heritage !

Hello LL-world & Marcus,

Am 26.06.2008 um 16:08 schrieb Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]:

My original point was the people of Brandenburg not keeping up their Low
Saxon heritage, cause they got told (not explicitly told, but implicitly
they adopted the message) they were "Ossis", people from Eastern Germany.
This, together with additional influence from the 3.5 million people city
Berlin, made them change their Mark-Brandenburgian language and identity to
a mixture of "outskirts of Berlin" and "German Democratic Republic" language
and identity. This is a mixture of "country thinking" and "cultural erosion
through media" (national media of the former GDR, actually).


A rather adventurous theory!

1.) 500 years ago, Berlin began to change step by step to the then Meissnian
dialect for practical reasons: the commercial connections to Meissen and
Lipsia (and later to the whole Middle and South German world) were important
for it's own commercial and industrial devolopment, more important than the
connections to the - at the beginning - still Low Saxon speaking North.

2.) Berlin did not change to Standard German (which at the beginning did not
exist
but to the Middle German dialect of that of the margraveship (county) of
Meissen at that time, i. e. to a dialect which still had been half been
Middle High German, with incomplete consonant's shift and the New/Modern
High German vocal shift only partly accomplished.

There is a interesting build-up of examples in Agathe Laasch's "Berlinisch"
{mhd.=Middle High German, obs.=Meissnian [for "obersächsisch"],
berl.=Berlinian, nd.= Low Saxon [niederdeutsch]}:

a) [engl. my/mine wine his stone to mean]

mhd. mîn wîn sîn stein meinen
obs.[M] mein wein sein stên mênen
berl. mein wein sein stên mênen
nd. mîn wîn sîn stên mênen

b) [engl. house mouse tree also, too]

mhd. hûs mûs boum ouch
obs.[M] haus maus bôm ôch
berl. haus maus bôm ôch
nd. hûs mûs bôm ôk

3.) Berlin adopted the Meissnian vocal phonology and orthography (later
Standard German) but applied the Low Saxon articulation.

Further there was a lot of concordance - mainly in the vocalisation -
between Meissnian/Berlinian and LS words.

Berlinian maintained some wording and phrasing of Mark-Brandenburgian LS.

Indeed one can mix LS and Berlinian elements, as this is possible with LS
and Middle High German, too. - What is rather impossible between LS and
Standard German, not so much because of the consonant shift but the Modern
High German vocal shift. (There is e. g. also more sound similarity between
LS and Swiss German - a Middle High German dialect - than between LS and
Standard German.)

4.) Already long before the existence of the GDR even the farther parts of
Brandenburg and all the younger Generations had adopted the Berlinian
dialect because of similar reasons as Berlin erstwhile did with Meissnian:
the necessity of easier communication and participation in economic and
cultural life of the center of Brandenburg and Germany, i. e. Berlin.

5.) Because of similar reasons the communication on this list is mainly in
Modern English and not in the various Low Saxon varieties - despite that
English is at least so faraway from any LS dialect as Standard German is.
That seems to be the easier way of mutuel understanding and explaining one's
arguments - because it is a modern, urban, civilized - standardized! -
language, usable even in humanities... ;-)

5.) Berlinian has never been the "brand label" or marker of state and
politics of GDR (despite some highlights in culture, theatre etc.), the
language varieties in which the official state of GDR presented itself was
rather ugly Modern Meissnian ("Sächsisch" - hear Ulbricht), Mosel-Frankonian
(Honnecker) and stilted efforts of a burocratic Standard German. - In any
case nothing for the youth of Land/state Brandenburg to identify with, even
in case of "Ostalgie" (social GDR-nostalgia).

6.) Nowadays the Berlinian dialect itself is in danger because of the
consequences of the economic take-over of East Germany, of the West/South
(!) German repopulation of Berlin (formerly restricted to West Berlin) and
because nobody in the Berlin government and political culture is aware of
the cultural virtue of this local (and now regional) dialect and nothing is
done to save this delightful and witty language of the broad people and the
literature.

Conclusio:

Instead of deploring the almost completed and unarrestable die-off of the
Brandenburg LS we'd better care about the survival of the Berlinian
dialect!

Met echt-westfälsken Gröiten!
Joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Moin, Joachim! Great to hear from you. Thanks for the above.

Not that I would want to detract from the essence, but I feel obligated to
tweak something in your data.

a) [engl. my/mine wine his stone to mean]

mhd. mîn wîn sîn stein meinen
obs.[M] mein wein sein stên mênen
berl. mein wein sein stên mênen
nd. mîn wîn sîn *stên mênen*

b) [engl. house mouse tree also, too]

mhd. hûs mûs boum ouch
obs.[M] haus maus bôm ôch
berl. haus maus bôm ôch
nd. hûs mûs *bôm ôk*

The marked Low Saxon items have diphthongs:

steyn [stɛˑɪn] ~ [staˑɪn] (stone)
meynen [ˈmɛˑɪnn̩] ~ [ˈmaˑɪnn̩] (to mean)
boum [bɔˑʊm] ~ [baˑʊm] (tree)

but in the following item a monophthong, at least originally, or in many
dialects:
ook [ʔoːk] (also, too)

In Middle Saxon, these tended to be written the way you wrote them above. We
can't be totally sure if they where monophthongs or diphthongs. But, going
by spelling variation, it looks like they were diphthongs at least in some
dialects:

stên ~ steyn ~ stein (stone)
mênen ~ meynen ~ meinen (to mean)
also:
êk(e) ~ eyk(e) ~ eik(e) (oak)

bôm ~ boum ~ baum (tree)

but:
ôk (also, too)

Do you think that in the Brandenburg dialects of Berlin /ee/ and /ey/ were
leveled to /ee/, and /oo/ and /ou/ to /oo/?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 21:27:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:27:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.27 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.142733.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L History was Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]

 > From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]
> The area around Eupen-Maastricht-Liege-Aachen is linguistically indeed
very interesting and very confusing including the curious existence of
Neutral Moresnet which was a virtually independent country for almost
hundred years

I would like to say a few words about undivided Moresnet.
Actually it was never neutral, but just undivided, as such left in art. 17
of the border treaty, signed in Aachen on June 26, 1816, and, after
ratification in both the Netherlands and Prussia, finalized, by exchange of
the documents of ratification, in Kleve on September 16 1816. The report on
the exact placement of the border stones was exchanged in Emmerich on
September 23, 1818.

*Governors of Undivided Moresnet*

1. Period with 2 governors

a - The Prussian governors:

1817 Geheimer Bergrat Wilhelm Hardt
1819 Oberbergrat Johann-Martin-Daniel Mayer, director of the Bergamt of
Düren
1836 Heinrich Martins, Oberbergrat in Bonn
1852 Armand von Harenne, Landrat von Eupen (for police only)
1854 Armand von Harenne, Landrat von Eupen (completely)
1866 Landrat Freiherr von der Heydt
1868 Landrat Edward Guelcher (as delegue of the king only)
1871 Landrat Sternickel
1893 Landrat Edward Guelcher
1909 Landrat The Losen

b1 - The Dutch governors

1817 Werner Jacob, deputee of the provincial administration of Liège
1823 Joseph Brandes, registrar of the provincial administration of Liège

b2 - The Belgian governors

1835 Lambert Ernst, assistant prosecuter at the Court of Appeal of Liège
1840 Mathieu Cremer, judge at the district court of Verviers
1889 Fernand Bleyfuesz, commissioner of the district (arrondissement) of
Verviers

b3 - The German occuption force in Belgium (headed by Governor General von
Bissing)

(March) 1915 Dr. Bayer, kaiserliche Zivilkommissar bei dem Kreischef zu
Verviers

2. Period with 1 governor

(June) 1915 Justizrat Spiess (replacing ad interim Landrat The Rosen)


3. Treaty of Versailles 1919

Undivided Moresnet was assigned directly to Belgium (art. 32)
Eupen-Malmedy went formally through a voting procedure (with possibilty of
writing disapproving comments openly in a register) before being fully
integrated. (art. 33-38)

*Law*
The law valid in 1816 (French law) remained applied in undivided Moresnet.
Judicial procedures started before the Judge of peace of Aachen (Germany),
with eventually appeal at the court of Appeal in Liège (Belgium), both
acting as to old French law. This was complemented by decrees issued jointly
by the 2 governors.

*Citizenship.*
Only the original inhabitants (incl immigrants till 1820) and their direct
descendance had "neutral" citizenship of Undivided Moresnet (248 in 1818,
273 in 1865, 490 in 1918).

*Resources*

1. Moresnet

Firmin Paquet, *Le territoire contesté de Moresnet*, 1960, Verviers, Gérard,
100 pp.
(very detailled as to the legal situation, the best resource on the subject)

2. Eupen - Malmedy, including some random comments on Moresnet

J PD van Banning, *Gebiedsovergang en zijn gevolgen, getoetst aan de
praktijk van inlijving van Eupen-Malmedy door België*, 1949, Schaesberg,
Drukkerij Bykorf, 117 pp. + a large map. A PhD paper with a very interesting
legal analysis *(intended to extrapolate to the situation of the Drostamt
Tüddern, annexed by the Netherlands; later returned to Germany, is now the
municipality of "Selfkant", cf. P.M. Coebergh, Het Drostamt Tüddern, 1952,
Maastricht, 272 pp. + map)*

Roger Collinet, *L'annexation d'Eupen et Malmedy à la Belgique en 1920*,
1986, Verviers, La Dérive, 127 pp. (contains much in-chamber details of the
politics of the Belgian government)

Gerd Kleu,* Die Neuordnung der Ostkantone Belgiens (1945-1956),* 2007,
Essen, Klartext, ISBN 978-3-89871-417-7, 184 pp. (also treats briefly in
about 30 pp the period 1795-1945)

Kurt Fagnoul, *Die annulierte Annexion, Von Wiener Kongreß bis zum Ende
Bolleniens*, 1985, St. Vith, Aktuell Verlag, 225 pp.
Vocabulary: *Bollenien*: Local name for the territory annexed by Belgium in
1945, returned to Germany in 1958, governed by the Belgian General
*Bolle*(It included Bildchen, Lichtenbusch, Losheim and parts of
Leykaul and
Hemmeres)

Eupen-Malmedy und sein Gouverneur, *Denkschrift herausgegeben bei
Gelegenheit der zu Ehren des General-Leutnants Baltia am 28. Oktober 1923
veranstalteten Feier*, 1923, printed in Brussels, 143 pp large size with
insert of many glossy pages with pictures.
More about Baltia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Baltia
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Baltia

3. Language

Nelde, *Deutsch als Muttersprache in Belgien*, 1979 Wiesbasen, Franz Steiner
Verlag, viii + 288 pp.(includes quite some material about the "dialects")

Peusgen's Pierrot, *Alles wat däer at ömmer weete woolt över Kelemes än
Omjebung*, CD with 26 contributions, published by BRF-2, 2007 (
http://www.brf.be/brf2).
Kelmis (http://www.kelmis.be) is <http://www.kelmis.be%29+is/> the name
undivided Moresnet got in Belgium in 1919. It absorbed some other
municipalities in the seventies.
The CD is in stock at the "logos" bookshop downtown Eupen (
http://www.logos.be)

Vocabulary of the splitted Moresnet:
Western Part (1815 Netherlands, 1830 Belgian): Moresnet (now part of
Plombières (Bleyberg)) (French as administrative language)
Central Part (1815 undivided, 1919 Belgian): Neutral Moresnet, 1919: Kelmis,
La Calamine (German as administrative language)
Eastern Part (1815 Prussian, 1919 Belgian): Preußisch Moresnet, 1919
Neu-Moresnet (now part of Kelmis)  (German as administrative language)

Regards,
Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 28 17:21:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:21:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.102141.0700.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.27 (05) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote: that little /lützil  were originally diminutives of
'lite'

I had always thought that a 'light breakfast' or being on a 'light diet'
were so described as being opposite to ' a heavy breakfast' or 'a stodgy
diet' but it would make much more sense if they both actually meant
'little/small'.

Possible?

best wishes on a rainy cold [typical ] June day

Heather

PS but the strawberries are good!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Semantics

Heather,

You wrote above:

Ron/Reinhard wrote: that little /lützil  were originally diminutives of
'lite'

Well, almost. English "little" is a diminutive form of now practically
obsolete English "lite", while *lützil* is an older German form of now
practically obsolete German *lützel*.

After the coolest spring on record, summer seems to have finally arrived
here, at least for a few days. It's quite warm already in the morning, and
I'm enjoying a completely clear view of the Olympic Mountains.

People here are getting into vacation mood. Happy July 4th to all in and
from the US of A (or "U, S and A," as Borat would say it)!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 28 17:45:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:45:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.104511.0700.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (01) [E/Berl.]

Een wunderscheen'n, Ron,
Tach ooch, vaehrteste Jenossin'n und Jenossen,

Am 27.06.2008 um 23:25 schrieb R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Not that I would want to detract from the essence, but I feel obligated to
tweak something in your data.

Do you think that in the Brandenburg dialects of Berlin /ee/ and /ey/ were
leveled to /ee/, and /oo/ and /ou/ to /oo/?


Jawollja, keen Diphtong meer bai "ee" und "oo", det secht meen insjesamt
achßeen(18)jeerjet Anheeren von Berlin'schen Ureenwoonan (aborigines) -
zwölwe davon inna Kalta-Kriich-Frontstadt Westberlin, sexe jetze in
Ostberlin. Män da ooch dat Berlin'sche bedroot is, wee'k det nich behoopten,
wenn ik di Nacht nich met der hailjen Agathe ihra Berlin'schen Jrammatik
ßujebracht hette ...

Yes, indeed, no Diphtong left in "ee" and "oo", that says my altogether 18
year long hearing of Berlin aborigines - 12 of it in the frontcity of the
Cold War Westberlin, 6 nowadays in Eastberlin. But because also the Berlin
dialect is threatened with extinction, I wouldn't dare affirming that
without spending the night with St. Agathe's Berlin grammar ...

Eemt wi jesacht:

»*Icke, dette, kieke mal: *
*Ogen, Fleesch und Beene!*
Di Berliner alßumal
Sprehen jaa ßu scheene!«

Als allaäußastet wünsch' ik noch Hals und Beenbruch,
Juutjeen!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries

-----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Und ik dank ooch scheen, lieba Joachim. Ja, die hailje Agathe ihre
Berlinsche Jrammatik muss ik mia ooch wieda mal ankieken, meen ik.

Un da kriech ik jleich wieda eene Idee (und Ideen jiept et bai mia ja imma
jenuuch): in't Jeschichtsblatt von Lowlands-L wat üba die Agathe Lasch. Det
weea jut, wail sie eemt laida ßu wenich bekannt is. Wat meenste daßu,
Joachim?

Joachim, I wonder if you agree with my characterization of traditional
Berlin dialects as Missingsch. I know it's not officially known as such, but
it's undeniable that it has strong Low Saxon substrata.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 28 23:43:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:43:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.164340.0700.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (03) [E/Berl.]

Hey Ron & alle,

Am 27.06.2008 um 23:25 schrieb R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Do you think that in the Brandenburg dialects of Berlin /ee/ and /ey/ were
leveled to /ee/, and /oo/ and /ou/ to /oo/?


perhaps I misunderstood this question in my first answer (see below).

If the question was about the original (Low) Saxon Language of old
Berlin/Cöln-upon-Spree until the 15th century (Märkisch Platt) then the
answer should perhaps be enhanced and more differentiated:

According to Agathe Lasch there are three types of Middle Low Saxon (=mnd.)
ê that were in LS-Berlinish (right?) written i and spoken diphtongized /îᵉ/:

type 1: mnd. brêf, LS-Berl. brif /brîᵉf/ [engl. letter]
type 2: mnd. bêden, LS-Berl. biden /bîᵉden/ [engl. to bid]
type 3: mnd. sên LS-Berl. sin /sîᵉn/ [engl. to see]

Don't ask me about the 3 types, I don't know, also Lasch's
"Mittelniederdeutsche Grammatik" at this (and many points) is too
complicated for me.

Nevertheless in *stên & **mênen (ê-type 5) according to Agathe Lasch the ê
/ee/ in LS-Berlinian were long monophtong IPA [e:], even if sometimes
written "ei"!!!*

Mnd. ô has 3 types, too (Lasch, Mnd. Grammatik § 158, after Seelmann, Nd.
Jn. 18, 141), thereoff:

ô¹ = german. ô, got. as. ô, ahd. ua, uo,
as in mnd. bôk, LS-Berl. buk /buºk/ Berl. Buch [engl. book]

ô² = german. au, got. au, as. ô, ahd. ou, ô,
as in mnd. lôpen, LS-Berl. lôpen IPA[o:] or [ɔu]?  Berl. loofen IPA[o:] or
[ɔ:]??
[engl. to run]


Am 28.06.2008 um 19:45 schrieb R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Un da kriech ik jleich wieda eene Idee (und Ideen jiept et bai mia ja imma
jenuuch): in't Jeschichtsblatt von Lowlands-L wat üba die Agathe Lasch. Det
weea jut, wail sie eemt laida ßu wenich bekannt is. Wat meenste daßu,
Joachim?


janß meena Meenunk! Aba ob ik da groß wat baitraren kann, weeß ik noch nich.

Joachim, I wonder if you agree with my characterization of traditional
Berlin dialects as Missingsch. I know it's not officially known as such, but
it's undeniable that it has strong Low Saxon substrata.


Low Saxon substrata, without doubts. But one have to take into account that
there were some elements in (Middle German) Meissnian of that time, that
were equal or similar to LS elements, as shown in Lasch's Table I reported.

So it depends, what you understand under "Missingsch". A. Lasch rejects the
hypothesis of Berlinish as High German/Low Saxon mixed language, because it
is in kernel/core Meissnian, but with LS substrata saved or even reimported
(as "ik", "det") in the 18/19th century.

Juutjeen,
joachim aus Olle-Pankowe

Am 28.06.2008 um 13:55 schrieb Joachim Kreimer-de Fries:

Jawollja, keen Diphtong meer bai "ee" und "oo", det secht meen insjesamt
achßeen(18)jeerjet Anheeren von Berlin'schen Ureenwoonan (aborigines) -
zwölwe davon inna Kalta-Kriich-Frontstadt Westberlin, sexe jetze in
Ostberlin. Män da ooch dat Berlin'sche bedroot is, wee'k det nich behoopten,
wenn ik di Nacht nich met der hailjen Agathe ihra Berlin'schen Jrammatik
ßujebracht hette ...

Yes, indeed, no Diphtong left in "ee" and "oo", that says my altogether 18
year long hearing of Berlin aborigines - 12 of it in the frontcity of the
Cold War Westberlin, 6 nowadays in Eastberlin. But because also the Berlin
dialect is threatened with extinction, I wouldn't dare affirming that
without spending the night with St. Agathe's Berlin grammar ...
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 28 23:48:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:48:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.164859.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Words"

Beste Ron,

seeing you being busy with your new projects we should not forget 'Beyond
The Pale'.

I should like you to check some new proposals.

*In category 'Words I like':*

LS: 'anbukken'
E: 'to abut', 'to make a child itself feel salvaged in the arms of mom or
dad'
I like this word, which probably was my very first Low Saxon one, because it
took all dangers, all harm of the world from my babyish soul. It is also
used in the Northern dialects of Standard German, because there is no real
equivalent in that language, as well as in English (?).

*In category 'Words I hate':*
**
E: 'motherf..r'
I hate it, because for my feeling it is so cruel and obscene like just very
few words in any language I know. And meanwhile it starts to become part of
the vocabulary of German proles, too.

*In category 'False Friends':*

E: 'tank', meaning an armoured vessel
G: 'Tank', meaning a bin, a container

*and same category:*

East Frisian Low Saxon: 'Bomme', meaning 'milk can'
G: 'Bombe', meaning
E: 'bomb'

*In category 'Words To Confuse':*
**
G: 'Maräne', meaning a fish of the *coregonidae*-family (G: also 'Renke'; E:
'whitefish [??])
G: 'Marone', meaning E: 'chestnut'
G: 'Moräne', meaning the geological relics of the glacier time, the
'moraine'
G: 'Muräne', meaning another fish, the 'moray (eel)'

...and some more stepping stones of this kind:

G: 'Matrone', E: 'matron'
G: 'Makrone', E: 'macaroon'.

This for today...

Allerbest, and have a nice weekend, alltogether!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Words

Thanks, Jonny. I'll add them to http://lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/ as soon
as I get a chance, at least after you got some feedback.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 03:33:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:33:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.203328.0700.>

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (04) [E]

English "tank" also means a container, usually a large metal one for storing
liquids (water tank, oil tank, gasoline tank), or to hold gasses under
pressure (oxygen tank, scuba tank).  It came to mean "an armored, tracked
vehicle" in World War I, when the British, in order to maintain operational
security while the vehicles were still in the design and development stage,
referred to the new vehicles as "tanks" to disguise the true nature of what
was being developed.

Another use of "tank" in English is for a jail cell, especially for holding
people who have been arrested for public drunkenness – usually called a
"drunk tank."

There is also the phrase "to be in the tank (for someone)," meaning to be
someone's supporter, and usually implying that the person being supported
has paid off the supporter or promised some favor, or suggesting that
someone who should be impartial is really working to help one side.

Kevin Caldwell

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Words"

Beste Ron,

seeing you being busy with your new projects we should not forget 'Beyond
The Pale'.

*In category 'False Friends':*

E: 'tank', meaning an armoured vessel

G: 'Tank', meaning a bin, a container
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 16:23:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:23:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.29 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JUN.2008.092325.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Language varieties

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L History was Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03)
[E]
> 3. Language
 > Peusgen's Pierrot, *Alles wat däer at ömmer weete woolt över Kelemes än
Omjebung*, CD with 26 contributions, published by BRF-2, 2007 (
http://www.brf.be/brf2).
> "Kelmis" http://www.kelmis.be is the new name "undivided Moresnet" got in
Belgium in 1919. Kelmis absorbed some other municipalities in the seventies.

> The CD is in stock at the "logos" bookshop downtown Eupen (
http://www.logos.be) <http://www.logos.be%29/>
[10 euro]

Here are 2 samples from this CD. For me the language is Ripuarian (The area
is also just East of the Bernrath isogloss)
We are in a transition area, with more or less influence of standard German
additionally.
Mark the differences between these 2 tracks, both associated with the Kelmis
area.

Track 3, *De Modersprook* von und mit Peter Zimmer, 1:7 min
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/3zimmer.wma

Track 19, *Kelemes* von und mit Jakob Langohr, 2:54 min
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/19kel.wma

The Sankt Vith area is classified as Moselle-Franconian, except from the
North of this district, which is rather a transition area between Ripuarian
and Moselle-Franconian.
A special case is the isolated village *Recht*, adjacent to the Walloon area
(The village got some immigration from Tirol in the Prussian time)

Here follows a track from:
*Mir kallen und schwätze Platt*, Die erste CD in Eifeler Mundart
BRF2, double-CD, 15 euro at Logos,
text transcription booklet on DINA4 for 5 euro at Logos.

CD2 Track1 *Reet,* Gedicht: Bertha Vohsen, 2:19 min
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/2_1_reet.wma
with scan of the text page:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/reet.jpg

Publications, incl. CD's, of the Eastern districts in Belgium can also been
found on the region shelves at the Mayersche in Aachen;
http://www.mayersche.de/

Regards,
Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 16:27:30 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:27:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.29 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JUN.2008.092730.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (04) [E]

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <jonny.meibohm at arcor..de>>
Subject: LL-L "Words"

*In category 'False Friends':*

E: 'tank', meaning an armoured vessel
G: 'Tank', meaning a bin, a container

But the the armoured vehicle only got its name because a British officer
thought the prototype looked like a water tank!

Paul

----------

From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (05) [E]

At 11:33 PM 28/06/2008, Kevin Caldwell wrote:

 There is also the phrase "to be in the tank (for someone)," meaning to be
> someone's supporter, and usually implying that the person being supported
> has paid off the supporter or promised some favor, or suggesting that
> someone who should be impartial is really working to help one side.
>

There's also the expression, "he tanked," which is derived from "to be
tanked" i.e. to be so drunk as to be thrown in jail.  It now seems to have a
much broader meaning, something like to have such a bad performance as to be
removed from the sport.  E.g.:  "Yet on Tuesday Taylor told reporters in
Minnesota that Garnett "tanked it" when he sat out last season's final five
games to go to California to get his sore right knee checked. Team officials
publicly supported Garnett's decision at the time it was announced."

Ed Alexander

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 16:29:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:29:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.29 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JUN.2008.092935.0700.>

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From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: Determiners

Hi you all,

  What is the origin of the Den Det (with adjectives) articles in modern
Scandinavian languages?
  I wonder if they may derive from some kind of demonstratives.

  Thanks.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 21:29:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:29:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.29 (04) [E]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.27 (02) [E]

In my last messages I theoretized about the Northern German identity and its
aspects and effects. It seems, I am not the only one feeling so. Today I
found an article in the online edition of the renowned German newspaper Die
Welt (<
http://www.welt.de/wams_print/article2158260/Sie_machen_Plattduetsch_schnacken_modern.html>).
They had an interview with Ina Müller and Yared Dibaba. Ina Müller and Yared
Dibaba being the "modern media faces" of Low Saxon. Müller was born a native
Low Saxon on a farm in my region and is a singer and TV host doing much Low
Saxon in her shows. (Her Dörp-Reggae really is great! <
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9otSTqlkytY>) Dibaba is a born Oromo from
Ethiopia. As a boy he came to Northern Germany and learned Low Saxon here.
Today he is a TV host and presents the documentary "Die Welt op Platt".
Müller was asked: "Ist die Hinwendung zum Plattdeutschen ein Teil der
Wiederentdeckung der Werte in dieser Gesellschaft?"
Is the turn towards Low Saxon part of rediscovering the values in our
society?
Müller answered:
"Ich glaube eher, dass es momentan kultig ist, Kult zu betreiben. Nehmen Sie
als Beispiel den FC St. Pauli. Deren T-Shirts mit den Totenköpfen sind sogar
in Dänemark ein Hit. Oder nehmen Sie die Band Fettes Brot. Die sind in ihrer
Altersklasse genauso Kult wie es die Comic-Figur Werner Beinhart für Ältere
ist. Und auch Plattdeutsch gehört in diese Kategorie. Das zeigt der
Zuspruch, den unsere Sendungen haben. Das hat einen eigenen Drive gekriegt.
Vielleicht auch, weil es mit uns jugendlicher, moderner wirkt. Sogar das
Ohnsorg-Theater traut sich inzwischen an modernere Stücke."
I actually think it is hip at the moment to boost cult icons. For example
the FC St. Pauli [local soccer club of Hamburg which has a devoted
followership that tries to stand off the more mainstream Hamburger SV].
Their T-shirts with the skulls and bones are a hit even in Denmark. Or look
at the band Fettes Brot. In their age group they are cult just like the
comic character Werner Beinhart for the older ones is. And Low Saxon too is
in this category. That's shown by the popularity of our shows. It's got a
drive of it's own. Maybe cause it feels younger and more modern with us.
Even the Ohnsorg-Theater is playing more modern plays now.

So Müller too thinks, that Fettes Brot and Low Saxon have some kind of cult
status in the North of German. There are more people feeling like me ;-)

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 16:33:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:33:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.093308.0700.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.29 (02) [E]

from heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>

Paul wrote: But the the armoured vehicle only got its name because a British
officer thought the prototype looked like a water tank!

Not so, Paul! The development of the vehicle was v hush-hush so when
transporting parts for assembly or the finished product, the containers /
boxes/ crates they were in were marked as TANKS both on the outside of the
crates etc and on the movement inventories.

bw

Heather

----------

From: Kevin and Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.29 (02) [E]
"To tank" can also mean something like "to fail" or even "to plummet, to
drop sharply" (as in, "The price of the stock tanked yesterday").

Kevinb Caldwell
From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (05) [E]

At 11:33 PM 28/06/2008, Kevin Caldwell wrote:

There is also the phrase "to be in the tank (for someone)," meaning to be
> someone's supporter, and usually implying that the person being supported
> has paid off the supporter or promised some favor, or suggesting that
> someone who should be impartial is really working to help one side.
>

There's also the expression, "he tanked," which is derived from "to be
tanked" i.e. to be so drunk as to be thrown in jail.  It now seems to have a
much broader meaning, something like to have such a bad performance as to be
removed from the sport.  E.g.:  "Yet on Tuesday Taylor told reporters in
Minnesota that Garnett "tanked it" when he sat out last season's final five
games to go to California to get his sore right knee checked. Team officials
publicly supported Garnett's decision at the time it was announced."

Ed Alexander

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 17:10:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:10:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.30 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.101053.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Lowlanners, Reinhard,

these days I came across the word LS _Klu(u)f_,_Klu(u)v_, used in the idiom
'Dat hebb ick oppp'n Kluuv', G: 'da lauert Gefahr', Northern German
dialect: *'Das habe ich auf Sicht'*, E: 'I fear sth. could be dangerous'.

I wonder about this word; the only connection I see could be LS
'klüf-(v-)tig', which could be translated into G(!): 'raffiniert', 'clever',
but E: 'tricky'.

Does anyone, in special our Dutch neighbours, find any further related words
which could give answer about the roots?


Allerbest, and thanks in award!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hey, Jonster!

Hmm ... I rather assume it comes from *kluuv'* (*Kluuv* ~ *Kluw* [kluːˑv] <
*kluve* [ˈkluːve]), dialectical variant of *klau* (*Klau* [klaˑu] <
*klaue*[ˈklaˑue]) and
*klaaw'* (*Klaaw ~ Klaw** *[klɒːˑv] < *klawe* [ˈklɒːve]). If I remember
correctly, Middle Saxon has *kluve* ~ *kluwe* and *klawe*. These are
cognates of German *Klaue* and English *claw*, with the same meaning. A
derivation from *kluuv'* is *kluven* 'to pick (up from the ground)', 'to
glean', and a derivation from *klau* is *klauen* 'to steal'; cf. German *
klauben* and *klauen*.

In the idiomatic phrase you mentioned, I imagine a cat about to pounce or
already "playing" with a little furry or feathered victim ...

As for *klüftig*, I am not sure if it's derived from *Kluft* 'abyss' or *
kluft* 'outfit', 'duds'. I rather suspect the latter, hence in the sense of
looking and seeming smart and nifty in a special outfit, then extended to
'smart' generally' and then to 'sharp', 'shrewd', 'scheming', 'sly'.
*Kluft*in the sense of 'outfit' started as a Rotwelsch word and goes
back to Hebrew
קִלּוּף *qillûph* 'shell', 'pod', probably assimilated to the other *Kluft*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: If the usual pattern holds and our Pacific Northwest weather drifts
over to the European Lowlands, then brace yourselves, folks, for a heatwave
is headed your way! For us it's been from unseasonably cool to unseasonably
hot. Across the street I can see construction workers slaving away in the
sun. Poor guys!
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 18:44:00 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:44:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.114400.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.29 (04) [E]

Beste Marcus,

in your last posting you quoted Ina Müller:

> I actually think it is hip at the moment to boost cult icons. For example
the FC St. Pauli [local soccer club of Hamburg which has a devoted
> followership that tries to stand off the more mainstream Hamburger SV].
Their T-shirts with the skulls and bones are a hit even in Denmark.
> Or look at the band Fettes Brot. In their age group they are cult just
like the comic character Werner Beinhart for the older ones is. And Low
> Saxon too is in this category. That's shown by the popularity of our
shows. It's got a drive of it's own. Maybe cause it feels younger and more >
 modern with us. Even the Ohnsorg-Theater is playing more modern plays now.

But the interview went on:

*(quote)*
*Question of the interviewer:* "Der globalisierte Mensch auf der Suche nach
einer Heimat oder einer Abgrenzung?"["The globalized people looking for a
home or distinction?"]

*Answer of Mr. Dibaba:* "So hoch würde ich das nicht hängen. Vielleicht ist
es auch nur ganz schlicht ein Trend, mit dem sich gut Geld verdienen
lässt."['I wouldn't overprice it. Perhaps it is just a trend to earn
good money."]
*(unquote)*

And that's it where 'our' Ina Müller is really capable- I have no doubt
about it!
But some doubts are coming when I hear her words imply that she grew up with
LS as her main language- she is born A.D 1965, and then even in Köhlen (a
village near Bremerhaven, Germany) people normally could speak Standard
German ;-)... Maybe she grew up within a mixture of LS and Northern German
dialect and just was unable to learn both languages:

*(quote)*
*Question:*
Auffällig bei Ihnen beiden ist, dass Sie ausgerechnet mit einer Sprache
Karriere machen, die eigentlich als Karrierekiller gilt. Oder haben Sie
andere Erfahrungen gemacht? [For both of you it is noticeable that you made
your carreers with a language looked upon as a carreer killer. Or did you
make different experiences?]

*Answer of Mrs. Müller:*

Nicht wirklich. Als ich damals an die Schule im nächsten größeren Ort *
wechselte*, da war es für uns nach Kuhstall *stinkenden* Dörfler, mit
Plattdeutsch *geschlagen*, nicht wirklich lustig. Das ist kein Vorwurf an
meine Eltern, um das gleich zu sagen, denen war es einfach egal, ob ihre
Kinder Plattdeutsch oder Hochdeutsch sprachen. Die haben über so etwas gar
nicht nachgedacht. Aber für ein Kind ist es schwierig, *plötzlich* Worte in
einer Sprache zu schreiben, die *total fremd* ist. Ein Albtraum. [Not
really. When I changed to a school in the neighboured bigger village, it
wasn't pleasant at all for us 'rednecks' with the smell of cow stables,
beaten with Low Saxon. I don't want to blame my parents ...; they didn't
mind us to talk either Low Saxon or Standard German. They didn't make any
thoughts about this. But for a child it is really difficult to write
abruptly in a totally strange language. A nightmare.]

*(unquote)*
Vulgar, stupid and with some inconsistency, for my humble opinion.

Once again Low Saxon gets moved into the 'Schmuddelecke' ['figurative place
for all that is considered dirty and taboo']. Or, not better but sounding
less cruel: Low Saxon just as a medium for 'Volksbelustigung' ['to make
people laugh']!?
But perhaps this curious and not at all new trend really will help to renew
Low Saxon in a very special way- "Geld regiert die Welt" ("money rules the
world")...

Meanwhile I don't care about this any longer.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Jonny. I'm rather inclined to agree with your sentiments on the
whole.

I'm not in the business of trashing people, and I don't really know very
much about Ina Müller. However, I do know that an important part of her
shtik is abrasive, sharp-tongued, irreverent humor with strong feminist
overtones, sometimes spoofing "proper ladies." That's all fine and dandy,
and I approve of well-placed irreverent humor as long as it is not
mean-spirited and is not merely a put-on twist for cornering a commercial
market.

Aside from what you wrote, Jonny, the interview left a weird taste in my
mouth with regard to Ina, a co-interviewee, sometimes taking on the
interviewer's role by asking Yared questions and then making what seem like
value judgments about his responses on top of it.

Ina Müller:
Moment, bevor Du weiter erzählst, wenn ich reinkomme und sage, Moin, Moin,
dann sagst Du ...?
Just a sec. Before you go on ... When I enter and say, "Moin, moin," you say
...?

Dibaba:
Atam!
"Atam!"

(I would have said, "Moin, moin!" if I were him.)

Müller:
Komisches Wort. Atam hört sich für mich nach Attacke an: Atam, Atam! Moin,
moin ist viel schöner, runder.
Weird word. "Atam" sounds like an attack: "Atam, Atam!" "Moin, moin" is much
more beautiful, rounder.

And the point is ...? What does this value judgment have to do with the
price of tea in China? "My language is prettier than yours"? In my opinion,
these interjections are inappropriate and aggressive and don't exactly come
across as informed. The introduction to the interview talks about Yared
Dibaba being used to dealing with "strong women" next to him at work and
being able to hold his own. I have no problem whatsoever with "strong women"
as long as they know what they are talking about and don't act the fool.
Dibaba:
Und? Was willst Du uns damit sagen?
So? What is it you're trying to say?

Müller:
Dass Moin sich schöner anhört, mehr nicht. ...
That "Moin" sounds nicer. That's all. ...
Good for him!

Müller:
Die Kombination ist aber auch zu nett: Ein Schwarzer, der im Norden eine
Sendung moderiert, die "Die Welt op Platt" heißt.
The combination is totally cute: a black man moderating a northern program
called "Die Welt op Platt" ...

No one asked you, Ina! Leave it to the readers to deal with their own
prejudicial takes!

Yared, who belongs to an Oromo refugee family from Ethiopia, talks about
challenges he faced in school, and Ina butts in again ...

Müller:
Du Armer! Und dann mit diesem Sprachengewirr. Das war aber auch ganz schön
gemein von Deinen Eltern, Dich überall hinzuschleppen und diesem
Sprachen-Babylon auszusetzen. ...
You poor thing! And then this language jumble on top of it! It was totally
mean of your parents to drag you all over and expose you to this Bable
situation. ...
Asked if he uses Low Saxon in everyday life ...

Dibaba:
In Hamburg macht das kaum noch jemand. Außerdem ist meine Frau Portugiesin,
mein ältester Sohn kommt auf eine deutsche Schule, und wenn ich meine Leute
treffe, dann sprechen wir Oromo. Plattdeutsch brauche ich tatsächlich fast
nur noch fürs Fernsehen. Aber Du träumst doch wahrscheinlich sogar auf
Platt, oder, Ina?
Hardly anybody does so in Hamburg these days. Besides, my wife is
Portuguese, my oldest son is going to go to a German-speaking school, and I
speak Oromo when I get together with my people. I use Low Saxon mostly on TV
these days. I take it you dream in Low Saxon, Ina. Or?

Müller:
Stimmt. Vor allem aber denke ich auf Platt. Ich bin schließlich eine Frau.
That's right. But most importantly, I *think *in Low Saxon. I'm a woman,
after all.

(Excuse me?! Perhaps she should stop making fun of ditsy women, unless she
means to include herself.)

Dibaba:
Wie konnte ich vergessen: Ich denke nicht, also bin ich Mann. Danke für den
Hinweis.
How could I have forgotten that? I don't think; so me man. Thanks for the
hint.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 20:41:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:41:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.30 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.134140.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.29 (03) [E]

Yes, you wonder right.
Ivison, what is the origin of the O + A articles in Portuguese?
In Spanish it's EL + LA, in Italian IL + LA, in French LE + LA?
I know Ptg dropped its middle L and N - I guess the word Portuguese is
from PortugaLese itself - so may O and A be from eLo and eLa?
And was "elo" the neuter article, I'd expect masculine to end in -e "eLe"?

Ciao, obrigado
Ingmar


From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: Determiners

Hi you all,

 What is the origin of the Den Det (with adjectives) articles in modern
Scandinavian languages?
 I wonder if they may derive from some kind of demonstratives.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 20:43:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:43:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.30 (05) [D]
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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.23 (01) [E]

Beste,
In Oostende was het liedje:

Macadam, macadam, macadam, dam, dam dam, oempa, oempa!

Het werd voornamelijk gezongen bij het marcheren om de kadans er in te
houden!

Roland Desnerck
Oostende
West-Vlaanderen

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 20:45:43 2008
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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:45:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.30 (06) [E]
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.30 (01) [E]

from heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

more re the tank

I asked my husband about this just to check I had got it right. His gt-uncle
was one of the team that developed the tank and we have just been given some
of his papers including a 1917 Christmas card with a drawing of a tank on
it! and a photo of the whole development team.

Apparently in order to keep the whole development secret, the work being
undertaken by the group was given out as ' the development of mobile water
tanks' to bring water in quantity to the battle field! So crates of machines
were stencilled WATER TANKS on the side and eventually this was shortened by
everyone to just TANKS and the name stuck.

bw

Heather

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 22:50:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:50:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.30 (07) [E]
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From: Stan Levinson <stlev99 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.30 (04) [E]

Ingmar,
To add some interest to this non-Lowlands Question, you might find
interesting that in Sicilian, the definite articles are EITHER "o" or
"lo"/"lu" (feminine a/la), with the difference being, I believe, regional.
My knowledge is not first-hand.
Stan

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.29 (03) [E]

Yes, you wonder right.
Ivison, what is the origin of the O + A articles in Portuguese?
In Spanish it's EL + LA, in Italian IL + LA, in French LE + LA?
I know Ptg dropped its middle L and N - I guess the word Portuguese is
from PortugaLese itself - so may O and A be from eLo and eLa?
And was "elo" the neuter article, I'd expect masculine to end in -e "eLe"?

Ciao, obrigado
Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Demonstrative pronouns in *Latin*:

Singular:
masculine: *ille*
feminine: *illa*
neuter: *illud*

Plural:
masculine: *illi*
feminine: *illae*
neuter: *illa*

Definite articles in *Italian*:

Singular:
masculine: *il*, *lo*
feminine: *la***

Plural:
masculine: *gli*
feminine: *le***

Demonstrative pronouns in *Old Norse*:

Singular:
masculine: *sa*
feminine: *sú*
neuter: *þat*
* *
Plural:
masculine: *þeir***
feminine: *þær*
neuter: *þau***

Demonstrative pronouns in *Old English*:

Singular:
masculine: *se***
feminine: *seð*
neuter: *þ**æ**t***
* *
Plural:
all: *þa***

Demonstrative pronouns in *Old Frisian*:

Singular:
masculine: *th**í***
feminine: *thiu*
neuter: *th**et***
* *
Plural:
all: *tha***
 **
Demonstrative pronouns in *Old Saxon*:

Singular:
masculine: *se, thi*,* thie*****
feminine: *thiu*, *the*
neuter: *tha**t*, *the***
* *
Plural:
masculine: *thia*,* thie*,* the*
feminine: *thia*,* **the*
neuter: *thiu*,* thia*

Demonstrative pronouns in *Gothic*:

Singular:
masculine: *sa*******
feminine: *s**ō***
neuter: *þata*****
* *
Plural:
masculine: *þai***
feminine: *þ**ōs***
neuter: *þ**ō***
**
*
*Demonstrative pronouns in *Sanskrit*:

Singular:
masculine: साः *sāḥ*****
feminine: सा *sā***
neuter: तत् *ta**t*****
* *
Plural:
masculine: से *s**e*
feminine: ताः *t**ā**ḥ***
neuter: तानि *t**āni*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron**
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 23:59:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:59:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.30 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.165941.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.30 (03) [E]

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>>
- Hide quoted text -

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.29 (04) [E]

Beste Marcus,
 in your last posting you quoted Ina Müller:
 > I actually think it is hip at the moment to boost cult icons. For example
the FC St. Pauli [local soccer club of Hamburg which has a devoted
> followership that tries to stand off the more mainstream Hamburger SV].
Their T-shirts with the skulls and bones are a hit even in Denmark.
> Or look at the band Fettes Brot. In their age group they are cult just
like the comic character Werner Beinhart for the older ones is. And Low >
Saxon too is in this category. That's shown by the popularity of our shows.
It's got a drive of it's own. Maybe cause it feels younger and more >
 modern with us. Even the Ohnsorg-Theater is playing more modern plays now.
 But the interview went on:
 *(quote)*
_Question of the interviewer:_ "Der globalisierte Mensch auf der Suche nach
einer Heimat oder einer Abgrenzung?"["The globalized people looking for a
home or distinction?"]
 _Answer of Mr. Dibaba:_ "So hoch würde ich das nicht hängen. Vielleicht ist
es auch nur ganz schlicht ein Trend, mit dem sich gut Geld verdienen lässt."
['I wouldn't overprice it. Perhaps it is just a trend to earn good money."]
*(unquote)*
 And that's it where 'our' Ina Müller is really capable- I have no doubt
about it!
But some doubts are coming when I hear her words imply that she grew up with
LS as her main language- she is born A.D 1965, and then even in Köhlen (a
village near Bremerhaven, Germany) people normally could speak Standard
German ;-)... Maybe she grew up within a mixture of LS and Northern German
dialect and just was unable to learn both languages:
 *(quote)*
_Question:_
Auffällig bei Ihnen beiden ist, dass Sie ausgerechnet mit einer Sprache
Karriere machen, die eigentlich als Karrierekiller gilt. Oder haben Sie
andere Erfahrungen gemacht? [For both of you it is noticeable that you made
your carreers with a language looked upon as a carreer killer. Or did you
make different experiences?]

_Answer of Mrs. Müller:_

Nicht wirklich. Als ich damals an die Schule im nächsten größeren Ort
_wechselte_, da war es für uns nach Kuhstall _stinkenden_ Dörfler, mit
Plattdeutsch _geschlagen_, nicht wirklich lustig. Das ist kein Vorwurf an
meine Eltern, um das gleich zu sagen, denen war es einfach egal, ob ihre
Kinder Plattdeutsch oder Hochdeutsch sprachen. Die haben über so etwas gar
nicht nachgedacht. Aber für ein Kind ist es schwierig, _plötzlich_ Worte in
einer Sprache zu schreiben, die _total fremd_ ist. Ein Albtraum. [Not
really. When I changed to a school in the neighboured bigger village, it
wasn't pleasant at all for us 'rednecks' with the smell of cow stables,
beaten with Low Saxon. I don't want to blame my parents ...; they didn't
mind us to talk either Low Saxon or Standard German. They didn't make any
thoughts about this. But for a child it is really difficult to write
abruptly in a totally strange language. A nightmare.]

*(unquote)*

Vulgar, stupid and with some inconsistency, for my humble opinion.
 Once again Low Saxon gets moved into the 'Schmuddelecke' ['figurative place
for all that is considered dirty and taboo']. Or, not better but sounding
less cruel: Low Saxon just as a medium for 'Volksbelustigung' ['to make
people laugh']!?
But perhaps this curious and not at all new trend really will help to renew
Low Saxon in a very special way- "Geld regiert die Welt" ("money rules the
world")...
 Meanwhile I don't care about this any longer.
 Allerbest!
 Jonny Meibohm

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

Subject: Etymology
>
> Thanks, Jonny. I'm rather inclined to agree with your sentiments on the
> whole.
>
> I'm not in the business of trashing people, and I don't really know very
> much about Ina Müller. However, I do know that an important part of her
> shtik is abrasive, sharp-tongued, irreverent humor with strong feminist
> overtones, sometimes spoofing "proper ladies." That's all fine and dandy,
> and I approve of well-placed irreverent humor as long as it is not
> mean-spirited and is not merely a put-on twist for cornering a commercial
> market.
>
> Aside from what you wrote, Jonny, the interview left a weird taste in my
> mouth with regard to Ina, a co-interviewee, sometimes taking on the
> interviewer's role by asking Yared questions and then making what seem like
> value judgments about his responses on top of it.
>
> Ina Müller:
> Moment, bevor Du weiter erzählst, wenn ich reinkomme und sage, Moin, Moin,
> dann sagst Du ...?
> Just a sec. Before you go on ... When I enter and say, "Moin, moin," you
> say ...?
>
> Dibaba:
> Atam!
> "Atam!"
>
> (I would have said, "Moin, moin!" if I were him.)
>
> Müller:
> Komisches Wort. Atam hört sich für mich nach Attacke an: Atam, Atam! Moin,
> moin ist viel schöner, runder.
> Weird word. "Atam" sounds like an attack: "Atam, Atam!" "Moin, moin" is
> much more beautiful, rounder.
>
> And the point is ...? What does this value judgment have to do with the
> price of tea in China? "My language is prettier than yours"? In my opinion,
> these interjections are inappropriate and aggressive and don't exactly come
> across as informed. The introduction to the interview talks about Yared
> Dibaba being used to dealing with "strong women" next to him at work and
> being able to hold his own. I have no problem whatsoever with "strong women"
> as long as they know what they are talking about and don't act the fool.
>
> Dibaba:
> Und? Was willst Du uns damit sagen?
> So? What is it you're trying to say?
>
> Müller:
> Dass Moin sich schöner anhört, mehr nicht. ...
> That "Moin" sounds nicer. That's all. ...
>
> Good for him!
>
> Müller:
> Die Kombination ist aber auch zu nett: Ein Schwarzer, der im Norden eine
> Sendung moderiert, die "Die Welt op Platt" heißt.
> The combination is totally cute: a black man moderating a northern program
> called "Die Welt op Platt" ...
>
> No one asked you, Ina! Leave it to the readers to deal with their own
> prejudicial takes!
>
> Yared, who belongs to an Oromo refugee family from Ethiopia, talks about
> challenges he faced in school, and Ina butts in again ...
>
> Müller:
> Du Armer! Und dann mit diesem Sprachengewirr. Das war aber auch ganz schön
> gemein von Deinen Eltern, Dich überall hinzuschleppen und diesem
> Sprachen-Babylon auszusetzen. ...
> You poor thing! And then this language jumble on top of it! It was totally
> mean of your parents to drag you all over and expose you to this Bable
> situation. ...
>
> Asked if he uses Low Saxon in everyday life ...
>
> Dibaba:
> In Hamburg macht das kaum noch jemand. Außerdem ist meine Frau Portugiesin,
> mein ältester Sohn kommt auf eine deutsche Schule, und wenn ich meine Leute
> treffe, dann sprechen wir Oromo. Plattdeutsch brauche ich tatsächlich fast
> nur noch fürs Fernsehen. Aber Du träumst doch wahrscheinlich sogar auf
> Platt, oder, Ina?
> Hardly anybody does so in Hamburg these days. Besides, my wife is
> Portuguese, my oldest son is going to go to a German-speaking school, and I
> speak Oromo when I get together with my people. I use Low Saxon mostly on TV
> these days. I take it you dream in Low Saxon, Ina. Or?
>
> Müller:
> Stimmt. Vor allem aber denke ich auf Platt. Ich bin schließlich eine Frau.
> That's right. But most importantly, I /think /in Low Saxon. I'm a woman,
> after all.
>
> (Excuse me?! Perhaps she should stop making fun of ditsy women, unless she
> means to include herself.)
>
> Dibaba:
> Wie konnte ich vergessen: Ich denke nicht, also bin ich Mann. Danke für den
> Hinweis.
> How could I have forgotten that? I don't think; so me man. Thanks for the
> hint.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Well, it's rather simple. Ina Müller doesn't care about "political correct
and diplomatic talk". She just say's what she's feeling. Saying "'Moin Moin'
sounds nicer than 'Aram'" maybe is not politically correct and not
linguistically justifiable, cause every language is a system of its own with
very own rules about what words sound like attacks and which do not. But
Müller is not a linguist and not the secretary general of the United
Nations. There's no need for talking diplomatic. She just said what the word
sounded like for her. When she talks about "nach Kuhstall _stinkende_
Dörfler", she does not say she thinks so, but that she felt treated like
that.

Ina's humor indeed is sharp-tongued and she doesn't mince matters ("nimmt
kein Blatt vor den Mund"), but she really is not abrasive or irreverent.
Have you ever seen "Land und Liebe" or "Inas Nacht"? She does not hesitate
to give somebody a bonk on the nose ("jemanden einen Nasenstüber
versetzen"), but she really does not put down anybody.

She is honest and "free rut". I like her for that, cause many people say
nice words all day long, but don't care about their words. Ina does not try
to be everbody's darling by uttering nice words. She just tries to be
herself, no stuccoed facade, just Northern German brick.
That's a typical villager feature in my opinion. Villagers don't know
"Grootsnutigkeit" (boastfullyness) and "Glattsnacken" (talking
sweet/toadying), they are more down to earth and honest and "free rut".
Well, of course there are Grootsnuten and Glattsnackers among the villagers
too and many honest and unboastful people in the cities, but the city tends
to be more aloof.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Culture

Thanks a lot, Marcus.

I sure appreciate your take on this (and you know more about Ina Müller than
I do). I just went by what I read in the interview, and things like saying
that refugee parents dragging their children all over Babylon are mean seems
a bit ... well, dumb to me. No, one doesn't have to qualify for the post of
UN Secretary General, but one can do just a bit of thinking before speaking.
But perhaps I misunderstood it and it was meant to be some sort of joke that
I don't get.

I see nothing wrong with irreverence, at least not well-place irreverence
that that doesn't put people down and involves thinking and challenging the
status quo.

"Free rut" is fine, especially at home where everyone pretty much thinks and
acts the same. In this day and age of constant inter-cultural
shoulder-rubbing, however, a modicum of tact and politeness is warranted, I
feel. This has nothing to do with toadying, just as not making comments to
people's faces about their looks, dress or ways of walking is not toadying.
Also, I hardly think that diplomacy is by definition dishonest. It's a
matter of restraint.

Anyway, it's quite possible I'm misunderstanding and misjudging this person.
Who knows? Just for having said these things I might end up in one room with
her someday ... At least then I'd find out.

In the meantime I watched a couple of videos of her performances, and it
seems to me that she is a "typical" stand-up comedian, though with a singing
twist, that *relies* on "naughtiness". In the US, imagine Cathy Griffin
spiking her routines with songs.

And here she claims that Low Saxon in not "a language in its own right" (*eine
eigenständige Sprache*) but *eine eigene Fremdsprache* ("its own foreign
language"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozQR3BnfFgg&amp

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 00:06:04 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:06:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.05.31 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.31.MAY.2008.170604.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.05.31 (01) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, the Basters speak Gariep (or Orange-River) Afrikaans to which
Namakwaland-,
Boesmanland-, Richtersveld-, Griekwa- and the coastal Veldrif Afrikaans
belong.

An example (from: Inleiding tot die Afrikaanse Taalkunde, TJR Botha Ed.):

=======

"Ek en Boesak en Tannetjie en Grietgoed-hulle het gel? ry staan kom van
Heen-En-Weerskop na Sannaspoort met mening sam om te l? stan bottel
koop, want ons was d?rs.

Ons had daar vier ou wilde brunes in gehad. Aljimmers dan l? stan gee
Boesakgoed vir Tannetjiesgoed die rieme.

Ek het vir Boesakgoed ges?: "Jy moenie so maak nie".
Mit dat hy weer vir Tannetjiesgoed die rieme stan gee, beuk die ou hotagter
perd weg en die het gehool met die kar dat ons hom vandag toe nie in die
wilstand kan kry nie.

Dit was nie 'n wat vir 'n kar nie, maar 'n teleurstelling wegens die bottel,
want
ons moes toe l? troei hoeistoe."

===============

The predominant carriers of this dialectical form were the Khoi and
Trekboere (some of mixed race)
who left the southern Cape after two small-pox epidemics in the 1800s and
settled in the North-Western
Cape, Namibia and Angola by the 1850s.

My father hails from the Boesmanland and still uses the form 'wat vir 'n..."
for anything ranging from a gadget
to a new marinade.

The ?goed addition is also very typical, as is the weird phonological
rounded and unrounded forms:

terug > troei
hoeistoe > huistoe
beuk > buk/buig

"Mit" instead of "met" is a typical Oos-Kaap Afrikaans form.

Beware, Griekwas and Rehoboth Basters do not consider themselves Bruinmense
or Coloureds despite the attempts
by pre- and post-colonial governments to coalesce and label race and
language groups for political reasons!

You might want to Google the following: Genadendal; Adam Kok; Griekwas;
Griekwastad; Griekwaland Wes, Griekwaland
Oos , Bartlett's church, Monrovian Missions,
http://www.bdb.co.za/kimberley/places.htm; and www.rehobothbasters.org.

The Basters speak Afrikaans as mother tongue.

Elsie

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
My question:

Exactly what sort of Afrikaans is it that the Basters speak natively (and I
assume they speak Standard Afrikaans as well)? Is it a form of or linked
with Griqua Afrikaans (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/griekwa-info.php)?

My suggestion:

I suggest we occasionally discuss Baster history and culture as well. These
seem very interesting to me, especially the aspect of "conservatism" that
some people describe as "more Dutch than the Dutch."
 Thanks in advance!

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 00:15:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:15:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.05.31 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.31.MAY.2008.171524.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.05.31 (02) [E]

n message <57c981290805310938m53b9dc70i7dfefa2359ca78ed at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>i.e. Roger writes

> Whike cleaning up my library I found a little book about Flemish
> pilgrimages
>

Fascinating stuff!

Thanks for posting it,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

==============================END===================================

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 00:27:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:27:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.05.31 (07) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.31.MAY.2008.172712.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.05.31 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Technica
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I need some technical help.
>
> I use FileZilla to FTP files to and from our Web account. It works fine on
> the whole, and the price is right (free).
>
> However, one thing is driving me insane about it. After a very short time I
> get automatically logged off each FTP session and have to logged on again. I
> have tried to set the session length to indefinite or at least longer, to no
> avail. I have contacted the discussion group and all I got was "Send a
> command to FileZilla Server," and my question "How?" remains unanswered.
> Yes, I do have the Server program but still can't figure out what I need to
> do, because there is no help.
>
> Can any of you explain what to do?
>
> Alternatively, does any of you know of a secure FTP program (preferably
> freeware) that does not leave me hanging with this problem?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Ausnahmsweise mal Deutsch, da mein Filezilla auch auf deutsch l?uft. Unter
"Bearbeiten -> Einstellungen -> Verbindung (Liste auf linker Seite) ->
Unterabschnitt FTP" erscheint dann rechts im Fenster unter
"FTP-Verbindungserhaltung" ein K?stchen ""FTP-Verbindungserhaltungs-Befehle
senden". Das ankreuzen. Damit m?sste es eigentlich gehen.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Thanks, Marcus.

So far no luck. Sorry if I seem/am too dumb, but when people try to explain
it I keep feeling that there's something being assumed.

First of all, are you talking about FileZilla or FileZilla Server?

In FileZilla I tried to follow what you wrote in German and did ...

Edit > Settings > FTP > FTP Keep-alive = clicked box labeled "Send FTP
keep-alive commands" and OKed

But the problem remained.

Underneath it says "A proper server does not require this. Contact the
server administrator if you need this."

What shall I do?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 16:58:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:58:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2008.05.31 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.095859.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to June 2008 at Lowlands-L! June already?! Can you believe it?

And welcome to you who joined us since the beginning of May! There is only
one of you. *Ahoj a vitajte!*

*Slovakia* (*Slovensko*):
     Bratislava [1]

It is normal for the number of new subscriptions to go down during the
Northern Hemisphere warm season, usually starting to pick up again in
September or October. Also, some longer-standing members resign and later
rejoin, apparently because they still have not understood that that all they
need to do is ask me to put their subscriptions on vacation mode, simply
give me the dates of the beginning and end of the period and then not worry
about it anymore. (Please see below.)


A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:

   -

   Do not mix topics.
   -

   Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond.
   It is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.
   -

   When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
   portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
   response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
   then.

Please consult the rules and guidelines:  lowlands-l.net/rules.php

Another request:
Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.

*Membership:*

As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
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Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
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*Address Changes: *
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
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the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
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*Temporary Absence*
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
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signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
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sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
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is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Please don't forget about our activities:

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
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(lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )



Please ask if you need to know what you can do and how to do it. Please also
remember that help is available.
Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

And remember:
No matter where you are (from), here you are considered Lowlanders until
proved innocent!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
sassisch at yahoo.com
Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 17:12:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:12:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.101248.0700.>

=========================================================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.05.31 (01) [E]

 Dear Ron

Subject: LL-L: Etymology

You said
*(I still have a hard time "saying" this name, considering that it is
derived from pejorative "bastard." However, I am not putting it in quotation
marks because the people themselves have decided to own this name, and
apparently proudly so. Something similar happened in the case of Canada's
M?tis.)

I supposed that it was in English that the word was pejorative,
understandably, if it specified one who was born out of wedlock, & in times
past for that reason beyond the social pale. However, in Afrikaans we use
that term for 'hybrid'. Hybridisation is 'uitbastering' & 'hybrid vogour' is
'basterkrag'. There is quite another word referring to racial mixing out of
that community & among their white neighbours. One seldom hears it, for good
reason. It retains the power to shock & has often even into present times
led the effusion of blood. Dare I even write it...? 'Halfnaaitjie': Please
do not use it.

Your question:

Exactly what sort of Afrikaans is it that the Basters speak natively?

I feel I aught to apologise in advance to Elsie, who has a philological ear
nearer to the ground in their part of the World, for pre-empting her.
However, I have had a bit of contact with them in times past, & it seemed to
me they spoke a fairly academic Kaaps Afrikaans between themselves. For
example, there was no 'klankbreek', diphthongisation, to the long vowels
that we tend to hear in the Transvaal, & their language is replete with
terminology that didn't make it to my neck of the woods. For example, they
refer to black men & women as 'outa' & 'ayah', that came from terms of
address to Cape Malays. Is this how she sounded?

Your suggestion:

I suggest we occasionally discuss Baster history and culture as well. These
seem very interesting to me, especially the aspect of "conservatism" that
some people describe as "more Dutch than the Dutch."

I like the idea. Only let me wait until another bloke puts his foot in it as
well. I agree about their conservatism though, & they are indeed,
quintessentially, more Afrikaans than the Afrikaners.

Yrs in anticipation,
Mark
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 17:22:06 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:22:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.06.01 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.102206.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.05.31 (07) [E/German]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

>
> First of all, are you talking about FileZilla or FileZilla Server?
>
FileZilla

> In FileZilla I tried to follow what you wrote in German and did ...
>
> Edit > Settings > FTP > FTP Keep-alive = clicked box labeled "Send FTP
> keep-alive commands" and OKed
>
> But the problem remained.
>
> Underneath it says "A proper server does not require this. Contact the
> server administrator if you need this."
>
> What shall I do?
>
There's a sub-window in FileZilla  (by default at the upper end) where
status messages, commands and responses are logged. Are there status
messages appearing in that line (about every 30 seconds or so), something
like "sending FTP keep-alive command"?
The time-outs are thrown by your server, if you are inactive for some time
(300 seconds is a typical time for a time-out). The FTP client has to make
sure, that the connection keeps alive by sending commands with no effect,
setting the time-out counter to zero again. If there are "sending FTP
keep-alive command" messages in that log, what kind of command follows? A
typical keep-alive command is "NOOP" (no operation, telling the server: "I
have no commands for you, but I am still there. Keep up the connection").
Some servers ignore the "NOOP" command.
Using another client _can_ help, but the basic problem lies with the server.
So asking the server administrator might help.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.05.31 (04) [E]

In message <57c981290805311313x40204fd5q659390518802d920 at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> i.e. Reinhard/Ron writes

> Alternatively, does any of you know of a secure FTP program (preferably
> freeware) that does not leave me hanging with this problem
>

I am not sure about its security, but I use FireFTP, a FireFox extension -
http://fireftp.mozdev.org/help.html

Best wishes,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Thank you very much, Marcus and Pat! This is very helpful.

I'll pursue your tips and will see which is the best solution.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I'm off to help put to a rest the body of a friend young enough to be
my son ... So, sorry if I seem a bit distracted.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 19:13:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:13:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.01 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.121335.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.01 (01) [E]

Haai all,

Nee watwou, oompie Mark, jy vang die ding daar goed vas!

In the 60s, the Rehoboth Basters were probably as conservative as the
Afrikaners were then,
but I don't think that is valid anymore. I think it is a tad silly to assume
they, like the Afrikaners,
are a homogenous little group untouched by education, world views and
international exposure.

Groetnis,

Elsie

I feel I aught to apologise in advance to Elsie, who has a philological ear
nearer to the ground in their part of the World, for pre-empting her.
However, I have had a bit of contact with them in times past, & it seemed to
me they spoke a fairly academic Kaaps Afrikaans between themselves. For
example, there was no 'klankbreek', diphthongisation, to the long vowels
that we tend to hear in the Transvaal, & their language is replete with
terminology that didn't make it to my neck of the woods. For example, they
refer to black men & women as 'outa' & 'ayah', that came from terms of
address to Cape Malays. Is this how she sounded?

>>I agree about their conservatism though, & they are indeed,
quintessentially, more Afrikaans than the Afrikaners.

Yrs in anticipation,

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Elsie and Mark.

Mark, you asked:

Is this how she sounded?

That's difficult to say, because she only said a few sentences. I could tell
it was Afrikaans but phonologically it didn't seem like Standard Afrikaans.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 22:49:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:49:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.06.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.154954.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Pat wrote:

I am not sure about its security, but I use FireFTP, a FireFox extension -
http://fireftp.mozdev.org/help.html

So far there have been no such problems in FireFTP. It seems to be working
just fine. Interesting, isn't it? I hope I won't have to eat crow.

My hosting service comes with an FTP program, but it's not very convenient
and fast to use. Since I upload so much, I prefer the select-and-drag method
or anything close to it.

At least in my case there was another problem with FileZilla. Whenever I
downloaded groups of documents or entire directories, once in a while a
document or two ended up empty, even when there was no error message. So it
looks as though there are still some kinks in the program, which may be the
reason why there are so many updates. I am just mentioning this as a matter
of caution to all of you.

Thanks again, Pat and Marcus! I'm glad I asked.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  1 23:43:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:43:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.01 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.164353.0700.>

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From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: Definite articles

Hi, you all,

  What's the origin of the Jutlandish definite article ? ? ?

  Thank you.

    Have a nice week.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi, ?vison!

After you posted the same question the other day (under "Morphology" -- and
I do change subject lines), I thought I had responded to it. But I can't
find my response in the archive, so I guess I only *intended *to answer your
questions (which happens when you get old and feeble).

To make it (relatively) brief, please take a look at my introduction to
Jutish as a part of our Anniversary presentation:

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/jysk-info.php

Uniform *?* is specific to Southern Jutish. Western Jutish has *?* where
Standard Danish has *-en* (*f?llesk?n*), and it has *?* where Standard
Danish has *-et* (*intetk?n*).

Yes, and unlike other Scandinavian (North Germanic) varieties, the Jutish
definite article *precedes* the noun, most probably due to long-standing
overlap with (and bilingualism involving) Low Saxon which resulted in West
Germanic features in Jutish and in North Germanic features in the
northernmost Low Saxon varieties.

English: *the* father | *the* house
Low Saxon: *de vadder* | *dat huus*
South Jutish: *? far* | *?** hus*
West Jutish: *? f?r* | *? hus*
Danish: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Norwegian: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Swedish: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Faroese: *fa?irin* | *h?si?*
Icelandic: *fa?irinn* | *h?si?*
Old Norse: *fa?irinn* | *h?sit

*
I believe it's uniformly *?* for plural 'the'.

The indefinite article, however, is similar in Jutish and the rest of
Scandinavian:

English: *a* father | *a* house
Low Saxon: *een (~ 'n) vadder* | *een (~ 'n) **huus*
South Jutish: *en (~ 'n)** far* | *et (~ 't)** hus*
West Jutish: *?n (~ 'n)** f?r* | *?t (~ 't)** hus*
Danish: *en fa(de)r* | *et hus
*etc.

To make things a bit more complex, the Jutish definite article *?** *tends
to be homophonous with *? *'is', 'am', 'are' (Standard Danish *er*); e.g.
West Jutish *?** g?rdesmutte **? ? f**?r* 'the wren is the father'.

To get to your actual question, I am pretty convinced that the Jutish
definite articles are derived from the Scandinavian articles (*-en > **?*, *
-et* > *?* ~ *?*) but have come to precede the noun under Saxon influence.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
*
*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 04:15:29 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:15:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does ot mean?" 2008.06.01 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JUN.2008.211529.0700.>

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From: "ds" <dstokely at infionline.net>
Subject: idioms

Dear Ron -

I hope it doesn't sound too scatological, but with this below my mind saw a
reference to breaking wind.  Could that be what the idiom refers to? A
little humor, perhaps?

David Stokely

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idioms"

these days I found an interesting idiom I don't understand though I mean to
understand each single word. It is handed down from the Hanseatic merchants
of the 14th/15th century and written in Middle Low Saxon:

*"vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"*
*vynde:*   *1. winds*
*         2. enemies*
**
*boddeme:* *1. the bottom(s) of a of ship*
                       *2.    (a) special type of ship(s)*
*                      3. (a) shallow part(s) of the sea, near the coast, in
special used in the Baltic Sea*
**
*maket:**   make (3rd pers. sing/pl)*
**
*gut:**     good*
**
*unde:*    *and*

Who is able to solve this conundrum?

-------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Oh, David, dear David,

Who can blame you with temptation so great?

And indeed, for all we know it is a clever Hanseatic word-play aphorism
about stooping to the very bottom (*boddem*) by taking advantage of the
winds (*vynde*) at one's disposal and thus blow one's enemies (*vynde*) out
of the game, even if only by stunning and confusing them for a few seconds.

It was wonderful to hear from you anyway.

The Kahuna has cracked a smile.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 13:56:46 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:56:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.02 (01) [E]
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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Not sure if this's been posted yet
http://www.eurolang.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3058&Itemid=1&lang=nl

Diederik

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 17:35:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:35:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.103553.0700.>

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From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "What does ot mean?" 2008.06.01 (06) [E]

*"vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"*
*vynde:*   *1. winds*
*         2. enemies*
**
*boddeme:* *1. the bottom(s) of a of ship*
                      *2.    (a) special type of ship(s)*
*                      3. (a) shallow part(s) of the sea, near the coast, in
special used in the Baltic Sea*
**
*maket:**   make (3rd pers. sing/pl)*
**
*gut:**     good*
**
*unde:*    *and*

Who is able to solve this conundrum?
 Probably not I, since I am ignorant of Low Saxon.

Here is the aphorism with some context which is not fully legible to me.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lPsDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22vynde+boddeme%22&lr=&as_brr=0

I would guess:

"vynde" = "enemy" (or "devil") (cf. German "Feind")

"boddeme" = "[cargo] ship" (cf. English "bottom" = "[cargo] ship")

"gut" = "cargo" (cf. English "goods", German "Gueter")

Then the aphorism might mean something like "Bad ship, bad cargo; bad cargo,
bad ship" or so, where "bad" could be either "evil" or "enemy". Exact
application not obvious to me.

Just a guess.

-- Doug Wilson

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 18:28:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:28:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (04) [E]
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.06.01 (04) [E]

From Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron wrote: I hope I won't have to eat crow.

????

Is this some ancient germanic expression? Or some new americanism?

Or a 'Ronism'?

I have never heard this before. Does it equate to 'eating humble pie'?

What is / was the 'crow'?

bewildered

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Heather!

No Ronism this time.

"To eat crow" is another, legitimate way of saying "to eat humble pie."

For those among us that are not familiar with either of these, they mean
something like "to be humiliated by having to admit that one's strong
opinion or position turns out to be wrong."

Interestingly, according to various sources, neither "humble" now "crow" in
this context originally meant what they seem to mean now.

"Humble" comes from "umble" (Middle English usually plural *vmblis*, *omblys
*, *omylys*) 'innards of an animal (usually deer)'. I believe it is derived
from Middle French *nombles* denoting various cuts of meat. Indeed, "numble
pie" is a variant of "humble pie."

"Crow" is related to Middle German *kros* or *kr?s* (Modern German *Gekr?se*)
and to Dutch *kroos(t)*, both 'mesentary', as well as Dutch
*kroos*'giblets', related also to Low Saxon
*Krage* 'mesentary'. I am fairly confident that it is related to English *
craw* (< Old English *cra?a*) 'crop (of a bird)', related to Middle Saxon *
krage*, Old German *chrago*, Danish *krave*, Old Norse *krage*, all 'throat'
or 'neck'. Furthermore, I believe that this is related to Low Saxon and
German *Kragen* 'collar'. In cooking, "crow" came to stand for "minor, cheap
cuts," mostly innards.

So while it seems to be true that "to eat crow" is mostly or only used in
North American English it may well have come from Britain. But then again,
it seems possible that "crow" in the said sense was still in use in early
colonial North America.

I used to use the phrase "to eat humble pie" before I settled in in the US.
But being a bit of a linguistic chameleon and also tired of getting weird
looks when I say "quaint alienisms" (though these can have sex appeal in
Europhile and Australophile US circles) I have switched to the "crow"
variant.

So there you are, dear Heather.

Umbly yours,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  2 17:03:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:03:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2008.06.02 (02) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2008.05.31 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:  We at Lowlands-L celebrate and support linguistic diversity
worldwide.

Certainly true!  An interesting and humorous anecdote (not funny at the
time).  On my computer at home I have the Firefox browser that I downloaded
in Spanish.  Never hurts to keep in practice with another language, right?
Well, the version of Internet Explorer that my wife used doesn't work with
all of the websites now.  Usually, I'm around to help her navigate my
Firefox browser, but not yesterday.  She got so mad trying to pay some bills
that she threatened me with buying her own laptop!  Well, the threat of
spending a bunch of money got me, so I finally downloaded an English version
of Firefox ;-).  But, I kept my Spanish version too.  Anyway, I don't think
my normally lovely spouse has the same appreciation for "linguistic
diversity" that I do (said tongue in cheek).

Mark Brooks

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 02:57:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:57:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.02 (05) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi again, ?vison *et al.*!

I've come to demonstrate the eating of both crows and humble pies.

A very kind and discrete private message of one of my favorite Danish
Lowlanders (*og tak ska' Du ha'*) pointed out that my information about the
definite article in Western Jutish was incorrect. My (h)umble apologies! I
went back to my notes, but they are old and I don't remember what I based
them on (if on anything other than occasional fancy flights of my enfeebled
mind). Then I checked other sources and found that what I wrote was indeed
wrong. I hope I got it right now.

Real Western Jutish does not distinguish genders and uses only what in other
varieties is the common gender (*f?llesk?n*). So here is a revision:

Definite:

English: *the* father | *the* house
Low Saxon: *de vadder* | *dat huus*
South Jutish: *? far* | *?** hus*
West Jutish: *? f?r* | *?** hus*
Danish: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Norwegian: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Swedish: *fa(de)ren* | *huset*
Faroese: *fa?irin* | *h?si?*
Icelandic: *fa?irinn* | *h?si?*
Old Norse: *fa?irinn* | *h?sit

*
Indefinite:

English: *a* father | *a* house
Low Saxon: *een (~ 'n) vadder* | *een (~ 'n) **huus*
South Jutish: *en (~ 'n)** far* | *et (~ 't)** hus*
West Jutish: *?n (~ 'n)** f?r* | *?n (~ 'n)** hus*
Danish: *en fa(de)r* | *et hus
*etc.

Good thing I find umble and crow edible, if not delicious.

In Danish, older Scandinavian masculine and feminine have coincided:

Icelandic:
masculine: *
**fa?ir* 'a father'* - fa?ir**inn* 'the father'
feminine: *
**klukka* 'a clock'* - klukka**n* 'the clock'
neuter:
*h?s* 'a house'* - h?s**i?* 'the house'

Danish:
common: *
**en fa(de)r* 'a father'* - **fa(de)r****en* 'the father'
*en **klokke* 'a clock'* - klokke**n* 'the clock'
neuter:
*et hus* 'a house'* - huset*** 'the house'

Southern Jutish:
 common: *
* *en** far* 'a father'* - **?** far* 'the father'
 *en **klokk'* 'a clock'* - **?** klokk'* 'the clock'
 neuter:
 *et hus* 'a house'* - **?** hus* 'the house'

Western Jutish:
 common: *
* *en** f**?**r* 'a father'* - **?** f**?**r* 'the father'
 *en **klokke* 'a clock'* - **?** klokke* 'the clock'
*en hus* 'a house'* - **?** hus* 'the house'

Furthermore, as in other Scandinavian varieties (but unlike Old Norse and
conservative Icelandic and Faroese), the indefinite article might be
regarded as having come to occupy the position of a numeral, adjectives,
etc., as in Western Germanic. They seem to be related to the enclitic
definite articles as well as with words for "one," the latter as in Western
Germanic. (Danish for "one" is *en* or *et* according to gender.) I suspect
that these changes occurred under Middle Saxon influence. In Jutish, more
intensive Saxon influences seem to have led to the abandonment of the old
enclitic definite article in favor of *?* (etc.) preceding a noun the way
Saxon masculine and feminine *de* and neuter *it* ~ *et* ~ *dat* do,
corresponding to English "the".

You might go as far as saying that Jutish and the northernmost Low Saxon
varieties represent a bridge between Northern and Western Germanic, although
the former is clearly still North Germanic and the latter are clearly West
Germanic.

How many crows do I have to eat now?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 02:59:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:59:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.02 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.195908.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Beste Ron,

tonight I learned another new LS-word (from Hamburg, your home region):

"_buttsche-boben-opp_", written differently '_buttje-baven-upp_'.

Isn't it nice? I'm sure that you're familiar with it, because its Standard
German meaning is obvious: 'kleiner Mann- ganz gro?'.
It is used to describe the condition or mood of a person of 'minor
possibilities' when he/she is a little drunk.

Again it shows- a _but(t)je_' is not necessary young or a boy, it describes
someone who (male/female) is "strolling", living outside of a community.

Have a nice day!

Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 03:01:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:01:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.200148.0700.>

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From: Hugo Zweep <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (04) [E]

Reminds me of several Australianisms probably starting with the description
of South Australians as being crow eaters. Oxford's Australian National
Dictionary has the earliest reference to this in 1881 "because it was
asserted that the early settlers ..., when short of mutton, made a meal of
the unwary crow".

The there is the archaic Australian slang phrase "stone (starve) the crows"
as an expression of surprise. To "eat crow" is described in the, Australian,
Macquarie Dictionary as a, presumably, colloqualism to mean to be forced to
do or say something very unpleasant or humiliating.

Hugo Zweep

----------

From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (04) [E]

From: Andrys Onsman

Hey Ron

So THAT is why South Australians are called Croweaters. Mind you, one of
their football teams, the Adelaide Crows (!), have been making other teams
eat plenty of crow/humble pie over the last few seasons.

Break my sorrow,
Andrys

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 03:13:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:13:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.201358.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (03) [E]

 Beste Doug, dear Lowlanners,

Doug schreyv, answering to

*"vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"*

the aphorism might mean something like "Bad ship, bad cargo; bad cargo, bad
ship" or so, where "bad" could be either "evil" or "enemy". Exact
application not obvious to me.
This is, for my guess, one very interesting interpretation of the
conundrum!!! (Sorry- trying to open your link I just found a lot of
possibilities to get furtheron...)

Thanks, nevertheless, to all the other guesses, dear people!

Hope we're going on.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (03) [E]

*"vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"*
*vynde:*   *1. winds*
*         2. enemies*
**
*boddeme:* *1. the bottom(s) of a of ship*
                     *2.    (a) special type of ship(s)*
*                      3. (a) shallow part(s) of the sea, near the coast, in
special used in the Baltic Sea*
**
*maket:**   make (3rd pers. sing/pl)*
**
*gut:**     good*
**
*unde:*    *and*

Who is able to solve this conundrum?

 Probably not I, since I am ignorant of Low Saxon.
>
> Here is the aphorism with some context which is not fully legible to me.
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=lPsDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22vynde+boddeme%22&lr=&as_brr=0<
> http://books.google.com/books?id=lPsDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22vynde+boddeme%22&lr=&as_brr=0
> >
>
> I would guess:
>
> "vynde" = "enemy" (or "devil") (cf. German "Feind")
>
> "boddeme" = "[cargo] ship" (cf. English "bottom" = "[cargo] ship")
>
> "gut" = "cargo" (cf. English "goods", German "Gueter")
>
> Then the aphorism might mean something like "Bad ship, bad cargo; bad
> cargo, bad ship" or so, where "bad" could be either "evil" or "enemy". Exact
> application not obvious to me.
>
> Just a guess.
>

But it's looking like a good guess after all. Compare this, from Thomas
Jefferson (1793):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q7yp1S0B9lgC&pg=PA282&dq=%22enemy+bottoms%22&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0

<<On the contrary, we suppose it to have been long an established principle
of the law of nations, that the goods of a friend are free in an enemy's
vessel, and an enemy's goods lawful prize in the vessel of a friend. The
inconvenience of this principle, which subjects merchant vessels to be
stopped at sea, searched, ransacked, led out of their course, has induced
several nations latterly to stipulate against - it by treaty, and to
substitute another in its stead, that _free bottoms shall make free goods,
and enemy bottoms enemy goods,_ a rule equal to the other in point of loss
and gain, but less oppressive to commerce.>>

There are numerous parallel examples (Google "enemy bottoms" for example), I
guess mostly in the literature of international/maritime law.

-- Doug Wilson

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 03:15:04 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:15:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.02 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JUN.2008.201504.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Beste Ron,

tonight I learned another new LS-word (from Hamburg, your home region):

"_buttsche-boben-opp_", written differently '_buttje-baven-upp_'.

Isn't it nice? I'm sure that you're familiar with it, because its Standard
German meaning is obvious: 'kleiner Mann- ganz gro?'.
It is used to describe the condition or mood of a person of 'minor
possibilities' when he/she is a little drunk.

Again it shows- a _but(t)je_' is not necessary young or a boy, it describes
someone who (male/female) is "strolling", living outside of a community.

Have a nice day!

Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 15:15:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:15:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.03 (01) [E]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.02 (05) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Morphology
>
> Hi again, ?vison /et al./!
>
> I've come to demonstrate the eating of both crows and humble pies.
>
> A very kind and discrete private message of one of my favorite Danish
> Lowlanders (/og tak ska' Du ha'/) pointed out that my information about the
> definite article in Western Jutish was incorrect. My (h)umble apologies! I
> went back to my notes, but they are old and I don't remember what I based
> them on (if on anything other than occasional fancy flights of my enfeebled
> mind). Then I checked other sources and found that what I wrote was indeed
> wrong. I hope I got it right now.
>
> Real Western Jutish does not distinguish genders and uses only what in
> other varieties is the common gender (/f?llesk?n/). So here is a revision
>
Wikipedia has a map about the distribution of number of genders and about
the distribution of the position of the article: <
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billede:Denmark-gender.png>.

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  3 23:36:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:36:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.03 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.3.JUN.2008.163614.0700.>

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From: Soenke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (08) [E]

Op'n Di., den 03. Jun.'08, hett Douglas G. Wilson dit Klock 05.13 schreven:

 From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
> Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.02 (03) [E]
>
>  "vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme"
>> vynde:   1. winds
>>         2. enemies
>> boddeme: 1. the bottom(s) of a of ship
>>         2. (a) special type of ship(s)
>>         3. (a) shallow part(s) of the sea, near the coast, in
>>            special used in the Baltic Sea
>> maket:   make (3rd pers. sing/pl)
>> gut:     good
>> unde:    and
>>
>> Who is able to solve this conundrum?
>>
>
> Probably not I, since I am ignorant of Low Saxon.
>
> I would guess:
>
> "vynde" = "enemy" (or "devil") (cf. German "Feind")
>
> "boddeme" = "[cargo] ship" (cf. English "bottom" = "[cargo] ship")
>
> "gut" = "cargo" (cf. English "goods", German "Gueter")
>
> Then the aphorism might mean something like "Bad ship, bad cargo; bad
> cargo, bad ship" or so, where "bad" could be either "evil" or "enemy". Exact
> application not obvious to me.
>
> Just a guess.
>
> But it's looking like a good guess after all. Compare this, from Thomas
> Jefferson (1793):
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Q7yp1S0B9lgC&pg=PA282&dq=%22enemy+bottoms%22&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0
>
> <<On the contrary, we suppose it to have been long an established principle
> of the law of nations, that the goods of a friend are free in an enemy's
> vessel, and an enemy's goods lawful prize in the vessel of a friend. The
> inconvenience of this principle, which subjects merchant vessels to be
> stopped at sea, searched, ransacked, led out of their course, has induced
> several nations latterly to stipulate against - it by treaty, and to
> substitute another in its stead, that _free bottoms shall make free goods,
> and enemy bottoms enemy goods,_ a rule equal to the other in point of loss
> and gain, but less oppressive to commerce.>>
>

So the sequence would mean "Enemy ship makes enemy goods, and enemy goods
make enemy ships" or - a bit more elaborated - "An enemy ship makes the
goods in it the enemy's [and therefore confiscable], and enemy goods in a
ship make the ship in whole the enemy's [which points back to the first part
- all goods in the ship get confiscable]".

This is a very lucrative rule (to say the least) compared to Jefferson's new
and old one. By his old rule you were neither entitled to take all stuff in
an enemy's vessel nor to take all stuff if a (neutral) ship transported
enemy goods. By his proposed new rule, you wouldn't be entitled to
confiscate any goods in a (neutral) ship that transported (also) enemy
goods.

Looks like the hansa league wasn't that "hanseaatsch" (demure) when it came
to ransacking "suspicious" ships. ;-)

Regards,
S?nke

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

What you said makes a lot more sense to me, S?nke.

This thing about "wind" was definitely off, if alone for the reason that I
have never seen "wind" spelled with a "v". In Middle Saxon it is always
either *wynd* or *wind*. The "v" was pronounced as [f] (if not as what our
Dutch friends claim they say when they spell "v").

So, *vynd* is a cognate of English "fiend", and it means either "enemy" or
"devil", as you mentioned. ("De vynd" means "the devil" or "Satan".)

 Looks like the hansa league wasn't that "hanseaatsch" (demure) when it came
to ransacking "suspicious" ships. ;-)

It's interesting, though, that the Hanseatic Trading League began as defense
alliance guarding against pirates and wreckers.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 15:11:05 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:11:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (01) [E]
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From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> ...
>
> "Crow" is related to Middle German /kros/ or /kr?s/ (Modern German
> /Gekr?se/) and to Dutch /kroos(t)/, both 'mesentary', as well as Dutch
> /kroos/ 'giblets', related also to Low Saxon /Krage/ 'mesentary'. I am
> fairly confident that it is related to English /craw/ (< Old English
> /cra?a/) 'crop (of a bird)', related to Middle Saxon /krage/, Old German
> /chrago/, Danish /krave/, Old Norse /krage/, all 'throat' or 'neck'.
> Furthermore, I believe that this is related to Low Saxon and German /Kragen/
> 'collar'. In cooking, "crow" came to stand for "minor, cheap cuts," mostly
> innards. ....
>

I don't think the etymology of "eat crow" is known with certainty. The
expression in its modern sense is not very old, found from about 1877 last I
knew.

There is a _supposed_ predecessor (ancestral according to claims made as
early as 1880), a joke which was printed repeatedly in US newspapers in the
1850's: a man claimed he could eat anything; he agreed to eat [a cooked]
crow; practical jokers loaded the crow with "Scotch snuff"; the man ate it
with great distaste and discomfort, saying he could eat a crow but that he
didn't desire it (didn't "hanker for it" as it usually appeared). I find
this joke back to 1850. I'm not convinced that this joke was really the
inspiration for the modern idiom, however. I just don't know.

-- Doug Wilson

----------

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.02 (07) [E]

From Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Hugo wrote: There is the archaic Australian slang phrase "stone (starve) the
crows" as an expression of surprise.

It may be archaic Down Under but it's very much alive and kicking here! It's
my 91 yr old mother's favourite expression ( of surprise) and I shall now
make a decided effort to include it in my 1 yr old granddaughter's vocab
over the next few years!

bw

Heather

PS Ron - thanks for your 'umble/ crow' explanation. Very fascinating!
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 17:03:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:03:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.100341.0700.>

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From: Mel Vassey <mel.vassey at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (01) [E]

On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:11 AM, Doug wrote:

I don't think the etymology of "eat crow" is known with certainty. The
expression in its modern sense is not very old, found from about 1877 last I
knew.


I'm not  convinced that it's anything other than a literal expression. My
grandfather grew up in a large family in rural South Carolina before and
during the Great Depression. He actually did eat crow on occasion. The birds
were often shot on sight, as they would damage crops, and times being what
they were, nobody wanted to waste an available protein source. Crows are not
particularly desirable as a game bird, though, as they don't have much meat
relative to their size. My grandfather didn't much care for the flavour,
either.

-------------------------------
Mel Vassey, DVM

http://cabezalana.blogspot.com

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love -
this is the eternal law."  - Buddha

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 17:12:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:12:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (03) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: Songs

A guy from another mailing list has a question about two songs.
Does someone you recognize it?

"Greetings to all!  I'm looking for assistance from any Dutch or Frisian
speakers on the list.  Because it's off-topic to the list, I'd like to
invite anyone to respond to my personal email instead of the entire
list ... I'm not a fluent Dutch speaker (in fact, I know very little Dutch
at all beyond the basics).  But my grandmother is the daughter of a Dutch
immigrant, and she was raised as an "American Dutch girl" in Iowa. She
just celebrated her 94th birthday, and we've seen a decline in her mental
faculties over the last decade or so.  But one thing she still remembers --
 are the old children's songs that she heard as a girl from her father.
She remembered one song well enough that she could even sing it to my two-
month-old daughter when we came to visit recently -- both in Dutch and
English! Unfortunately, because of her mental condition, she wasn't able
to write the song down.  But she dictated the original words (along with
what I think is a non-literal English translation) to my mother, who did
her best to write down the Dutch sounds phonetically.  We have no idea if
her phonetic guesses are even close to the original Dutch words. Another
complication:  the language might not actually be Dutch, but Frisian,
since her father came to Iowa from Ternaard, in Friesland.  But whichever
language it is, I'd like to find the original words to the song, as well
as a more literal English translation.  Here goes our best attempt at
writing down the song.  (I'm mostly going with the phonetic spelling from
my mother's transcription, rather than guessing what the true words were.
I have a basic clue about Dutch spelling, but I don't know a wit about
Frisian, so I'd rather not even try.)
Original Dutch(?):
Suza nona Popkin  -- (popkje?)
Kelta lyin gropka  -- (gropkje?)
Mam in huis Sofear van hoosSee caneet verrupke(Zij kan niet?)

English gloss: Just a little calf,thereLying in the straw thereMother and
father so far from the houseThey can't hear him crying  Thanks in advance
for any direction anyone can provide! Best regards, :

Chris
On Jun 1, 2008, at 11:45 PM, Ingmar Roerdinkholder wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:21:14 -0500, Eric Christopherson
> <rakko@ > wrote:
>
>> While we're at it, anyone able to identify this song? I don't know
>> what language it is; it might be gibberish for all I know. It goes:
>>
>> /%bEtS@%batS@"beit@
>>  %Indi%ouvI"Steit@   (this part sounds German)
>>  "vIksti%si
>>  "vIksti%su
>>  %kamdi%kEtsl@"ale%su
>>  a"deima%ma
>>  a"deipa%pa
>>  "hupsa%lisa%hupsa%sa/
>
> Ingmar:
>
> betsje batsje beete
> in de oven steet e
> wikstiesie
> wiekstiesoe
> kam de kettel alle soe
> an de mama
> an de papa
> hupsa, Lisa, hupsasa
>
> the first is a nonsense rhyme sentence
> then: in the oven he stands
> nonsentence ??     it won't be XTC ;-)
> nonsentence ??
> came the kettle all so
> to the mama
> to the papa
> whoops, Lisa, come on
>
> Looks like Low Saxon, maybe from Ost-Friesland (Low Saxon speaking
> part of
> Germany, adjacent to the Netherlands Low Saxon speaking province of
> Groningen
> Ingmar

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 18:20:08 2008
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Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.04 (05) [E]
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.05.25 (02) [E]

 Dear Theo

Subject: LL-L "Anthropology"

I wrote:
...the root-forms of Basque technical language reach
back to a stone-age culture, with the word 'knife'
for example going back to
the name for 'flint' & 'ceiling' means literally
'the roof of the cave'
You wrote:
I'm a bit sorry,  great Mark,
But is this really an argument?
I mean- example:  most words for cup / bowl and so on
in european languages go back to roots for 'skull'.
Not just the Basques have an history going back to the
stone-age.
[And we are going back to a new stone-age; so let's
remember all those words.]
Great???
Flatterer! Apologies for the late response. You are correct of course. We
all descend from Adam, hey? On the other hand, Indo-Germanic for example can
by its terminological features be (persuasively) traced back to a specific
geographic origin & a specific level of technical sophistication, which, I
am open to correction, includes the use of the plough, or at least the ard,
& beasts of burden.
The 'flint' explanation is not my thesis but that of my Basque conversant,
however I accept it for the reason noted above - as ever, subject to
correction.

Yrs,
Mark

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 18:23:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:23:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.112354.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 04 June 2008 - Volume 04
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (03) [E]

Ha, a classic. I sing it for my little girl as well....
It is Westerlauwer Frisian

Suze nane poppe
kealtsje leit yn'e groppe [ I replace "kealtsje" by my daugther's name, as
is usual in my family, I have also heard "berntsje" = little child here]
Heit en mem sa fier fan h?s,
kin se net beroppe.

"suze" and "nane" are sort of czy, comforting words for children
poppe = baby
kealtsje = little calf (but see remarks; here the asker seems to recall this
version)
leit yn 'e groppe = lies in the ditch [can be part of a stable as well ]
Heit en mem sa fier fan h?s = father and mother so far from home
Kin se net beroppe = cannot reach them by calling out.
[it is kind of sad, as is the melody ]

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Ingmar,

This song and other variants in Frisian, Low Saxon and Dutch dialects of the
Netherlands are listed here, many of them with audio clips from the mid-20th
century:

http://tinyurl.com/67tb96

A Dutch version begins like this:

Suse naane poppe
Kindje ligt in de groppe

As for the other lullaby, "Suze naanje, ik waaige die" being one of the
versions, I once, a long time ago, came across a version in a Northern Low
Saxon dialect of Germany, but I don't remember where. It may have been in
some book. Does anyone know it? But maybe it was in a Low Saxon dialect of
the Netherlands and my border-ignoring mind is playing tricks on me again.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  4 18:17:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:17:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.111728.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 04 June 2008 - Volume 04
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (03) [E]

Ha, a classic. I sing it for my little girl as well....
It is Westerlauwer Frisian

Suze nane poppe
kealtsje leit yn'e groppe [ I replace "kealtsje" by my daugther's name, as
is usual in my family, I have also heard "berntsje" = little child here]
Heit en mem sa fier fan h?s,
kin se net beroppe.

"suze" and "nane" are sort of czy, comforting words for children
poppe = baby
kealtsje = little calf (but see remarks; here the asker seems to recall this
version)
leit yn 'e groppe = lies in the ditch [can be part of a stable as well ]
Heit en mem sa fier fan h?s = father and mother so far from home
Kin se net beroppe = cannot reach them by calling out.
[it is kind of sad, as is the melody ]

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Ingmar,

This song and other variants in Frisian, Low Saxon and Dutch dialects of the
Netherlands are listed here, many of them with audio clips from the mid-20th
century:

http://tinyurl.com/67tb96

A Dutch version begins like this:

Suse naane poppe
Kindje ligt in de groppe

As for the other lullaby, "Suze naanje, ik waaige die" being one of the
versions, I once, a long time ago, came across a version in a Northern Low
Saxon dialect of Germany, but I don't remember where. It may have been in
some book. Does anyone know it? But maybe it was in a Low Saxon dialect of
the Netherlands and my border-ignoring mind is playing tricks on me again.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 00:00:27 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:00:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JUN.2008.170027.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Talking about songs ...

There is a somewhat convenient web resource for locating video recordings of
various types of world music, from authentic folk music via kitchen table
karaoke, home-made spoof and glitzy pop to classical music. Some of it is
great, some of it is embarrassing, especially the lip-synchers that merely
want their mugs to be seen worldwide.

So here it is:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/

It's a nice service (apparently from India or by someone from India in the
UK) and includes music of lesser-encountered or lesser-mentioned ethnic
groups and their languages. It offers hours of entertainment and discovery.
This includes music of our focus area. I will list the URLs of the relevant
pages below.

However, before that a word of warning is in order.  The site is pretty
messy, carelessly thrown together. On Lowlands-specific and other pages
there are tons of miscategorized links. For instance, under "Georgian"
(Kartvelian) you will find links to several songs about the US state of
Georgia, under "Frisian" you will find lots and lots of videos about Frisian
horses, and "Saxon" has nothing to do with Low Saxon or even the "fake
Saxons" of the German state of Saxony. Most of the songs listed under
"English" are not English at all but ended up in this category because they
have the word "English" in the text somewhere, which is also how the Frisian
horses ended up under songs. Under "Pitcairn" there is not a single link to
Pitcairn or Norfolk songs. This is an example of what happens when you rely
on a poor script to capture links automatically. Furthermore, there is at
least one mislabeled link: the second "Hawaiian" label leads to "Hebrew" or
"Israeli". So I give the site a D for thoroughness of execution, a B for
effort, and an A for intention.

Until these pages have been cleaned up (and I am blind-copying the owner
here) you will need to navigate by such faulty links to get to the real
stuff. Nevertheless, it's an effort and a start.

Links to the individual pages are found in the box on the top left. Here are
the Lowlands-related pages:

Afrikaans:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/AfrikaansSongs/tabid/485/Default.aspx?page=1

Dutch:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/DutchSongs/tabid/512/Default.aspx?page=1

English:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/EnglishSongs/tabid/514/Default.aspx?page=1

"Flemish" (i.e., anything Dutch in Belgium):
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/FlemishSongs/tabid/519/Default.aspx?page=1

Frisian:
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/FrisianSongs/tabid/521/Default.aspx?page=1

"Pidgin" (includes Tok Pisin and other English-based creoles):
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/PidginSongs/tabid/566/Default.aspx?page=1

"Scots" (including any Scottish song in languages other than Scots):
http://www.bharatwisdom.com/ScotsSongs/tabid/577/Default.aspx?page=1

Not represented are songs in Low Saxon ("Low German") and Limburgish, to
speak for our focus area alone.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 14:07:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:07:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.070748.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.04 (05) [E]

> From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.05.25 (02) [E]
>
>  Dear Theo
>
> Subject: LL-L "Anthropology"
[...]
> You wrote:
> I'm a bit sorry,  great Mark,
> But is this really an argument?
> I mean- example:  most words for cup / bowl and so on
> in european languages go back to roots for 'skull'.
> Not just the Basques have an history going back to the
> stone-age.
> [And we are going back to a new stone-age; so let's
> remember all those words.]
> Great???
> Flatterer! Apologies for the late response. You are correct
> of course. We
> all descend from Adam, hey? On the other hand,
> Indo-Germanic for example can
> by its terminological features be (persuasively) traced
> back to a specific
> geographic origin & a specific level of technical
> sophistication, which, I
> am open to correction, includes the use of the plough, or
> at least the ard,
> & beasts of burden.
> The 'flint' explanation is not my thesis but that
> of my Basque conversant,
> however I accept it for the reason noted above - as ever,
> subject to
> correction.
>
> Yrs,
> Mark

Hi,

Accept my correction, please.
You are not just great, but also humble.
vr.gr.
Theo Homan

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 14:24:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:24:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.072440.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.05.31 (05) [A/E]

 Beste Elsie

Onderwerp: LL-L "Language varieties"

Dankie vir u inset.

"Watwou"?! Nou laat jy my lekker herhinner aan C Louis Leipoldt se
uitmuntende karakter, ten spyte sy vertraagde politieke insig (ek deel myne
met hom).

Terloops, die 'wat vir 'n ...' uitdrukking is net so hard gebruik in ons
Noord Traansvaalse geselskap, oftewel almal verstaan en antwoord daarop as
ons famielie die einste gebruik.

Ja, laaskeer (om en by 1980) toe ik mit die Rehaboth Basters doenig is, het
hul hulle punten?rig van die Volkies afgesonder, heel simpatiek (in sommige
gevalle) maar tog as ander nasie. Ik wil net bayvoeg, ik self ag nie die
konserwatief iets agterlik nie. Dis net die goede, onthouw, mens ayt h'
verlede moet bewaar (sommiges s? 'het' pleks van 'h' '), en dit nie ten
koste van die goede in het hede, n?!

Die Uwe,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Elsie, Mark en almal,

Terloops, in Nedersaksies en Duits gebruik ons ook daardie uitdrukking.

Nedersaksies: *wat voer 'n ...* (*wat f?r 'n ...*)
Duits: *was f?r ein ...*

Kan dit wees dat dit een van die gelene Nedersaksiese uitdrukkings in Duits
is?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 14:27:03 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:27:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.072703.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (02) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at Tiscali.co.uk

Mel wrote ; re eating crow "My grandfather didn't much care for the flavour,
either."

Pastai Brain Bach = rook pie in Welsh and it was well known enough to appear
on a tea towel I was given that featured Welsh recipes. I was reliably
informed back in the 70s by a neighbour on Anglesey that rook are like
seagull - best caught live in a trap, kept for a week and fed 'clean' food'
i.e. corn / bread to take away the bad  taste of their flesh. Then they are
killed and just the breasts used to fill a pie.

I wonder whether "The 4 and 20 black birds baked in a pie" were originally
rooks and not 'blackbirds'

Heather

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 18:30:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:30:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (04) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.113059.0700.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]


Isn't this formulation used in a lot more of the Germanic languages? In
Dutch (at least in my idiom) one can say "wat voor een", as in "wa veur 'nen
hongd is da?" what kind of dog is that? (alternatively "hoe een", "how a",
hoe 'nen hongd is da? although this one isn't accepted as correct)
In Scandinavia they say "hvad for nogen"/hvad for en (Danmark), hva for noen
(Eastern Norwegian), ka for nokke (Bergen) = kva for nokon (in Nynorsk)
Gr,
Diederik

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Elsie, Mark en almal,

Terloops, in Nedersaksies en Duits gebruik ons ook daardie uitdrukking.

Nedersaksies: *wat voer 'n ...* (*wat f?r 'n ...*)
Duits: *was f?r ein ...*

Kan dit wees dat dit een van die gelene Nedersaksiese uitdrukkings in Duits
is?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi Diederik!

Yes, I think it's a widespread expression. However, it's rather peculiar:
literally "what for one/a {noun}?" I would find it more "natural" if it
where "what one/a {noun}?" (and English "what kind of {noun}?"). In other
words, the "for" is rather weird here and leads me to suspect that it began
as a peculiarity that spread from a single source variety. It is not as old
as to occur in very old writing, and it did not make it to Britain.

Of course, any of the older Lowlands varieties could be the original donor.
However, as you know, Middle Saxon strongly influenced the Scandinavian
languages (and some of this filtered into Faroese and Icelandic due to
Danish dominance). Furthermore, Middle Saxon and Early Modern (Low) Saxon
also influenced the development of Standard German, especially on the
colloquially spoken level, and in the Netherlands it influenced the
development of Standard Dutch. It's in the middle, linking Scandinavia with
Germany proper and with the Low Franconian areas. This is not to exclude the
possibility that Saxon got it from Low Franconian or German and passed it on
to Scandinavia.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 18:33:31 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:33:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.113331.0700.>

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From: clarkedavid8 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (03) [E

Heather wrote:

Pastai Brain Bach = rook pie in Welsh and it was well known enough to appear
on a tea towel I was given that featured Welsh recipes. I was reliably
informed back in the 70s by a neighbour on Anglesey that rook are like
seagull - best caught live in a trap, kept for a week and fed 'clean' food'
i.e. corn / bread to take away the bad  taste of their flesh. Then they are
killed and just the breasts used to fill a pie.


 Only last year I bought a dozen rooks' breasts from Borough market in
London SE1. I stewed them but their flavour was unremarkable - like pigeon.
Perhaps they needed more skilful handling. I havent seen them on sale there
since, however!

David Clarke

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (03) [E]

Of course! Eating Crow may have two different connotations and obviously is
not the best "eating bird". But, Man being omnivorous, we ate birds as soon
as we could get them from the sky with slingshot, glue stick or net.
Therefore the idea of "bird pie" seems to be pretty universal; There is
Chicken Potpie and Tourtiere, but  I think the Moroccan Bisteeyia ? Pigeon
Pie with almonds and sugar ? is the best of all. Happy munching, Jacqueline
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  5 21:30:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:30:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (06) [D]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JUN.2008.143008.0700.>

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]

Beste Ron, beste Elsie, beste Mark, allerbeste allen,

'n Reactie op "wat voer' n, uit het Nedersaksisch?
Te Oostende, West-Vlaamse Noordzeekust, gebruiken we dit ook:

Wafre vint? welke man?
Waffer wuuf? welke vrouw?
Wafferain is dadde? welkeen is dat?
Wafferain h? je gie gekoozn? Welke heb jij gekozen?

In grote delen van Bi!nnen-West-Vlaanderen gebruikt men: wukke (d.i. welke)
Aan de westkust en hinterland gebruikt men:wiene

Oostends: wadde is dadde?
West-Vlaamse binnenland: wuk is dadde?
Westkust (De Panne, Nieuwpoort): wiene is dadde?
Soms zegt men schertsend,, als men naar iets vraagt, met ??n ademstoot:
wiene wukke wadde?

Alle met de betekenis: wat is dat?

Nota: ben verscheidene keren op reis geweest, vandaar mijn "stilzwijgen".
Heb wel alle (en interessante) Lowland-berichten gelezen!
Zoek nu ook naar "vynde boddeme ..."  Ik dacht aan het peilen met een
peillood in onze gevaarlijke met zandbanken bezaaide Noordzee (Vesterhav:
Westzee voor de Scandinaven). Als je goed peilt, vind je de zeebodem en kan
je gezwind varen, je lading goederen veilig in de haven brengen.
"Goed de bodem vinden is goed voor de goederen, goed zorgen voor de goederen
betekent goed (dit is regelmatig) de diepte van de bodem kennen!
Dit zijn, net als bij de andere denkenden en zoekers, slechts enkele
hersenkronkels ... Maar daaraan dacht ik meteen!

Toetnoasteki
Roland Desnerck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Beste Roland,

Het is goed om te weten dat je weer thuis bent.

En bedankt voor de interessante informatie.

Vriendelijke groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 17:22:39 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:22:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (01) [E]
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (04) [A/E]

Hallo Diederik and Ron,  re: "Wat voor een hond is dat?". I am just back
from vacation so I may have missed some of this string. So if I make a fool
of my self; so be it. In Dutch you can also say "Wat voor hond is dat?" or
even "Wat is dat voor een hond?" and also "Wat is *dat* voor hond (stress on
dat)?"

 And my question now becomes. Does this have any similarity to the English
(slang?) "Whatfor", like in "He gave him whatfor"  (gave him a piece of his
mind?

Jacqueline

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 17:25:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:25:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.06 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.102538.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Culenaria" 2008.06.05 (03) [E]

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (02) [E]
from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at Tiscali.co.uk

I wonder whether "The 4 and 20 black birds baked in a pie" were originally
rooks and not 'blackbirds'
Heather

According to local history in Leicester, they were Richard II's 24
black-clad councillors/advisors.  The song was a protest song by Leicester
bakers on the occasion of a royal visit. A sixpenny tax had been raised on
rye, and they weren't happy, but by complaining against the advisors rather
than the king, they avoided accusations of treason.

Blackbird Road in Leicester is sometimes said to be named in memory of the
event.

Paul Finlow-Bates

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 21:03:55 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:03:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.06 (03) [A]
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]

Haai julle,

Dankie, Mark, vir die inligting dat julle dour in die Noord Transvaal,
oftewel Limpopo, ook die 'wat virre' gedoente gebryk.

Groete,
Elsie

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 21:04:00 2008
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Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:04:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.06 (03) [A]
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.05 (02) [A]

Haai julle,

Dankie, Mark, vir die inligting dat julle dour in die Noord Transvaal,
oftewel Limpopo, ook die 'wat virre' gedoente gebryk.

Groete,
Elsie

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 21:06:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:06:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [D]
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Vocabulary"

Hallo,

Nu heb ik een vraagje over het Afrikaans.

Het woord 'doringhout'.
Nu is dit woord niet te vinden in de online woordenboeken.

Maar het gaat mij om: 'swart-doringhout'.

Marais gebruikt het [over de tovenares].

De specifieke vraag is:
is 'swart' hier alleen gebruikt om de soort hout aan te duiden,
of kan ik 'swart' hier begrijpen met een extra betekenis; iets met rituelen
of folklore of plaatselijke gebruiken?

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  6 21:31:52 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:31:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.143152.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (06) [D]

Haai almal,

Dankie, Roland.

Die vorm "wafre" is baie nader aan my pa se Gariepse uitspreek vorm terwyl
die 'wat vir 'n..."
bloot die geskrewe vorm in Standaard Afrikaans is.

Dus in Gariep Afrikaans:
Wa virre sous is dit daai?
Wa virre nonses hoor ek dat jille ga immigreer?

ensoaanvoort,

Elsie
----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Jacqueline,

You wrote:

Hallo Diederik and Ron,  re: "Wat voor een hond is dat?". I am just back
from vacation so I may have missed some of this string. So if I make a fool
of my self; so be it. In Dutch you can also say "Wat voor hond is dat?" or
even "Wat is dat voor een hond?" and also "Wat is *dat* voor hond (stress on
dat)?"


You set me thinking, when you wrote "Wat is dat voor een hond?".

Maybe this construction was initially interpreted as "What is that, as/for a
dog?". The answer could then be: "For a dog, it's a pretty smart animal". So
"for" was meant to be a classifier, setting the subject apart from other
creatures. I think English has similar constructions, like "For a dog, it's
a clever animal" or "That's pretty clever for a dog". The only difference
with continental Germanic seems to be that Dutch and German also use the
phrase in a question or a suggestion like "Wat voor een hond is dat?".

Could this be the result of continental Germanic having a less strict word
order than English? Or would it rather be typical of older/archaic language?
I have no clue, but I do know that in my native dialect anyway, word order
is much more loosely defined than in standard Dutch. Probably because
dialect is mainly spoken, and speech is more subject to rhythm than written
language.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Jacqueline wrote:

 In Dutch you can also say "Wat voor hond is dat?" or even "Wat is dat voor
een hond?" and also "Wat is *dat* voor hond (stress on dat)?"

German and in Low Saxon of Germany use the these constructions too, but the
first and last have the indefinite article:

   1. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is dat? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund is
   dat?)
   German: Was f?r ein Hund ist das?

   2. Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is dat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat f?r een (~ 'n)
   Hund?)
    German: Was ist das f?r ein Hund?

   3. Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is *dat** *v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is *dat** *f?r een (~
   'n) Hund?)
    German: Was ist *das** *f?r ein Hund?

 These can also use the cognate of "then" to emphasize wonderment:

   1. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is den dat? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund
   is denn dat?)
   German: Was f?r ein Hund ist denn das?

   2. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is *dat *den? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund
   is *dat *denn?)
   German: Was f?r ein Hund ist *das *denn?

   3. Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is den dat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is denn dat f?r een
   (~ 'n) Hund?)
    German: Was ist denn das f?r ein Hund?

   4. Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is *dat** *den v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat denn f?r
   een (~ 'n) Hund?)
    German: Was ist *das** *denn f?r ein Hund?

 Interesting thought there, Luc!

And I am rather suspecting something related to expressions such as "She
used an old shirt for a rag," or "They have a gander for a watchdog." So if
you say, "What for a dog is that?" (if you could say it in English) it would
mean something like "What kind of lame excuse for a dog is that?!"

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.06 (06) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.04 (03) [E]

Thanks for solving the Frisian song I asked about on behalf of someone.
But in the same message he asked about another song. Anyone familiar with
it? Ingmar

>> While we're at it, anyone able to identify this song? I don't know
>> what language it is; it might be gibberish for all I know. It goes:
>>
>> /bEtS@ batS@"beit@
>>  Indi ouvI"Steit@   (this part sounds German)
>>  "vIksti si
>>  "vIksti su
>>  kamdi kEtsl@"ale su
>>  a"deima ma
>>  a"deipa pa
>>  "hupsa lisa hupsa sa/
>
> Ingmar:
>
> betsje batsje beete
> in de oven steet e
> wiksti si
> wiksti su
> kam de ketsle (?) alleen su
> an de mama
> an de papa
> hupsa, Lisa, hupsasa
>
> the first is a nonsense rhyme sentence
> then: in the oven he stands
> nonsentence ??     it won't be XTC ;-)
> nonsentence ??
> came the kettle all so
> to the mama
> to the papa
> whoops, Lisa, come on
>
> Looks like Low Saxon, maybe from Ost-Friesland (Low Saxon speaking
> part of
> Germany, adjacent to the Netherlands Low Saxon speaking province of
> Groningen
> Ingmar

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 03:20:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:20:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.202044.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (05) [A/E]

1.      Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is dat? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund is dat?)
German: Was f?r ein Hund ist das?

2.      Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
Low Saxon: Wat is dat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund?)
German: Was ist das f?r ein Hund?

3.      Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
Low Saxon: Wat is *dat *v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is *dat *f?r een (~ 'n)
Hund?)
German: Was ist *das *f?r ein Hund?

These can also use the cognate of "then" to emphasize wonderment:

1.      Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is den dat? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund is
denn dat?)
German: Was f?r ein Hund ist denn das?

2.      Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is *dat *den? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund is
*dat *denn?)
German: Was f?r ein Hund ist *das *denn?

3.      Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
Low Saxon: Wat is den dat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is denn dat f?r een (~
'n) Hund?)
German: Was ist denn das f?r ein Hund?

4.      Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
Low Saxon: Wat is *dat *den v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat denn f?r een (~
'n) Hund?)
German: Was ist *das *denn f?r ein Hund?

Interesting thought there, Luc!

And I am rather suspecting something related to expressions such as "She
used an old shirt for a rag," or "They have a gander for a watchdog." So if
you say, "What for a dog is that?" (if you could say it in English) it would
mean something like "What kind of lame excuse for a dog is that?!"

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Hallo Ron en Luc. Since we are all going to the dogs I might as well add
some more fuel to the fire:

1st Ron says:

These can also use the cognate of "then" to emphasize wonderment:

   1. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is den dat? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund
   is denn dat?)
   German: Was f?r ein Hund ist denn das?
   2. Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
   Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is *dat *den? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund
   is *dat *denn?)
   German: Was f?r ein Hund ist *das *denn?
   3. Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is den dat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is denn dat f?r een
   (~ 'n) Hund?)
   German: Was ist denn das f?r ein Hund?
   4. Dutch: Wat is *dat *voor een hond?
   Low Saxon: Wat is *dat *den v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat denn f?r een
   (~ 'n) Hund?)
   German: Was ist *das *denn f?r ein Hund?

Indeed Dutch does this too, but if I say "Wat is dat dan voor een hond?" I
am not only wondering, I am also excluding this particular animal from the
rest of the pack. F.i. if there is one Labradoodle in a kennel full of
Poodles. Am I right in assuming that the same mechanism holds for Low Saxon
and even German for that matter?

2nd, Luc, you say:

The only difference with continental Germanic seems to be that Dutch and
German also use the phrase in a question or a suggestion like "Wat voor een
hond is dat?".

Could this be the result of continental Germanic having a less strict word
order than English? Or would it rather be typical of older/archaic language?
I have no clue, but I do know that in my native dialect anyway, word order
is much more loosely defined than in standard Dutch. Probably because
dialect is mainly spoken, and speech is more subject to rhythm than written
language.

I think that you are right when you say that Dutch has a less strict word
order than English, but I am not so sure about German. However, I do agree
with your notion that speech is more subject to shifts in emphasis and
rhythm which give it a more subtle flavor. It is in this respect that
dialects can shine as do "street languages" of all kinds.  It is in the
process of writing that we stultify the language through lack of these
mechanisms. A lot of written Dutch is horribly contorted, especially the
language of officiaIdom. I do not know about you, but I am certainly more
eloquent when speaking than when writing. Of course this difficulty is
partially alleviated by the use of idiomatic expression to give the language
more color, still I always admire the discipline of those writers that
manage to get their ideas across without becoming too colloquial. It is
horribly difficult to use one's hands to write the language instead of
speaking with them.

In that respect it must be interesting to be bilingual, like you probably
are, in two languages; one of which depends on grammar and the other which
depends on idioms to vary color and emotion. But that is a horse of an
entirely different color.

Heb een plezierig weekend. Jacqueline
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 04:59:56 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:59:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.06 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.215956.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Folks,

Most of you will remember the Middle Saxon expression our Jonny posted the
other day.

In the meantime I located it on page 16 of the following book, a collection
of documents from L?beck's Hanseatic era: *1461-1465*, vol. 10 of *L?beckisches
Urkundenbuch*; part 1 of Codex diplomaticus lubecensis, Urkundenbuch der
Stadt L?beck; L?beck: Edmund Schmersahl Nachf., 1898.

Hopefully, the context of the entire letter in which it appears will allow
us to tell what exactly it means. It seems to have helped me, but I let you
be the judges of that.

The German introduction:
Ein Ungenannter bittet den Rath von L?beck, die Kaufleute zu warnen, da er
sich an dem K?nig von D?nemark r?chen wolle. 1461. Feb. 21

My translation:
An unidentified person is asking the (City) Council of L?beck to warn the
merchants, because he wants to take revenge on the King of Denmark. Feb. 21,
1461

The Middle Saxon text:

Cover:
*Den vorsichtigen wolwisen borgermesteren vnde radtmannen der stat Lubek
detur hec.*

Body:
*Mynen wilghen steden ghehorsam vnderdanyghen denst nw vnde alle weghe
stedes touoren.
     Ersamen leffuen heren. So do ich jw fruntliken to weten, dat my de
koningh van Dannemarken groten schaden hefft ghedan vnde hefft my
vordarffuet bet an de grvnt. Vnde dat wolde ich gerne an em wreken, offte
ich konde etc. Vortmer do ich jw to weten, dat ich vppe den samer werde my
maken in de see, vnde vmme des willen warnet juwen koppman, dat se nyn gut
schepen vppe de vynde boddeme edder och nyn schipper neme nyn gut vppe syne
boddeme, dat in de rike to hus hort, wente vynde boddeme maket vynde gut
vnde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme. Ersamen leuen heren. Darvmme so do ich
jw warnynghe, dat ich node jw edder den juwen nynen schaden wolde don. Juwe
ersamycheyde do ich beuelen Gode deme almechtigen.
*
*     Gescreuen to Rugewolt, an Vnser vrouwen dage to Lichtmissen, anno
Domini etc. LXI?.
*
My (fairly literal) translation:

Cover:
*Detur hec*, to the assiduous, judicious Mayor and Councilmen of the City of
L?beck

Body:
First and foremost (I offer) my eager, humble service now, always and
everywhere.
     Dear, honourable gentlemen, I herewith have you kindly know that the
King of Denmark hath caused me great damage and hath ruined me ("to the
ground" =) thoroughly. And for this I desire to retaliate against him if I
can etc. Furthermore I have you know that this summer (?) I shall set out to
sea. For this reason (please) warn your merchants that they not ship (any) (
*gut *=  goods =) merchandise upon (*vynde boddeme* =) (the) enemy('s)
waters or likewise no skipper taketh merchandise upon his waters that are
owned by the realm, for (*vynde boddeme maket vynde gut vnde vynde gut maket
vynde boddeme* =) enemy's waters make enemy's merchandise and enemy's
merchandise maketh enemy's waters(?).
     Dear, honourable gentlemen, therefore I give you herewith forewarning,
for I desire not to cause you or yours harm. I command your respectability
to God the Almighty.
     Written at Rugewolt* on Our Lady's day of Candlemass, *anno Domini *etc.
LXI?.

* [Low Saxon *R?genwoold*, German *R?genwalde*, Kashubian *Dirlow?*, Polish
*Dar?owo*; in Kashubia, Poland, once under Hanseatic and Danish rule; full
name: *Kr?lewskie Miasto Dar?owo
* (The Royal City of Dar?owo)]

Suggestions and comments would be welcome.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 05:12:05 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 22:12:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (09) [A/D]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JUN.2008.221205.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [D]

 Beste Theo

Onderwerp: LL-Languages "Vocabulary"

u Vraag:
Het woord 'doringhout'.
Nu is dit woord niet te vinden in de online woordenboeken.

Maar het gaat mij om: 'swart-doringhout'.

Marais gebruikt het [over de tovenares].

De specifieke vraag is:
is 'swart' hier alleen gebruikt om de soort hout aan te duiden,
of kan ik 'swart' hier begrijpen met een extra betekenis; iets met rituelen
of folklore of plaatselijke gebruiken?

Mark:
In ons dorre land is vol vele boomgewasse en struikgewasse met allerlei
dorings voorsien, beide sagte- en harde-houtsoorte, in verskeie opsigte
toepaslik vir verskillende gebruik. Weet u van watter houtsoort vermeld
word, en vir watter gebruik? Kan dit die 'swartdoring' of 'swarthaak'
(acasia detinens) wees? (Goeie hout, maar 'n slegte gewas, wat soete
weivelde soms indring). Die ding is, uit die inheemse boomsoorte kan ek aan
net twee boomsoorte met mantieke gebruik dink, en nie een van hulle is
doringagtig nie - maar wel *giftig*!

Betreffende ander eienskappe: Sommige doringhout te sag vir houtwerk en
sommiges selfs nie die moeite werd vir brandhout nie, maar miskien lewer die
laasgenoemdes waardevolle beeste- of bokke-voer.

Die uwe,
Mark

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 17:08:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:08:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.100812.0700.>

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: "Idiomatica" ?

The past two weeks we had relations from the US in our home. Discussing the
trips to be made, one of the subjects was the distance of such trips. On
this side of the ocean cars measure distance in kilometers. Nothing special
so far. It is the pronunciation of the word kilometer that fascinated me, as
it had many times before. The visit from the US brought it back to my
attention.

Our US visitors pronounce the word kilometer stressing the o: kil*o*meter.
Nothing special, this is what almost everyone does. However, what everyone
does is not necessarily the right thing.

The pronunciation of kilometer as kil*o*meter is completely analogous with
the pronunciation of words like barometer and thermometer. The analogy may
be the very reason for it. Most words ending on ?*o*meter however are
instruments of measurement. For that reason one might rather think that a
kil*o*meter is an instrument for measuring kilo's, than a measure of
distance.
When indicating the distance of a thousand meters, a more proper
pronunciation would probably be: *ki*lometer, stressing the first syllable.
We do the same thing with *ki*lobytes when a thousand bytes are meant. Why
change it when it comes to meters?

*Ki*lometer may be more proper, but even if it is, it still seems odd to be
the only one pronouncing the word properly.

The bottom line is I brought myself into the situation of finding both ways
of pronunciation odd. I either do it completely wrong, or I seem to
show off knowing
it all better. Avoiding to speak in terms of kilometers is no option in this
country??

 Is there any verdict given before on this matter. Is there such a thing as
a right pronunciation?. Has anyone dealt with the "problem" before? What was
your solution?

Groetjes,

Fred van Brederode
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 17:12:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:12:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.101233.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

Body:
First and foremost (I offer) my eager, humble service now, always and
everywhere.
     Dear, honourable gentlemen, I herewith have you kindly know that the
King of Denmark hath caused me great damage and hath ruined me ("to the
ground" =) thoroughly. And for this I desire to retaliate against him if I
can etc. Furthermore I have you know that this summer (?) I shall set out to
sea. For this reason (please) warn your merchants that they not ship (any) (
*gut *=  goods =) merchandise upon (*vynde boddeme* =) (the) enemy('s)
waters or likewise no skipper taketh merchandise upon his waters that are
owned by the realm, for (*vynde boddeme maket vynde gut vnde vynde gut maket
vynde boddeme* =) enemy's waters make enemy's merchandise and enemy's
merchandise maketh enemy's waters(?).

I thought somebody on the list earlier on had already pointed out that
"boddeme" refers to a special kind of ship.
The riddle would then mean that you can't separate the ship from the goods
it is carrying, if either one belongs to your enemy, the whole lot can be
confiscated.
For a while however, I was thinking that "boddeme" could also mean "Boden"
(G), "territory"/"waters", like in Nazi-terminology "Blut und Boden", which
ties the rights of inhabitants to the land on which they're living (don't
get me started on this...it's the main source of trouble here in
Brussels/Belgium because Dutch and French communities are
fundamentally...grunds?tzlich  :-D ...different in this respect).
In this view, the riddle would become awkward, because "enemy's merchandise
maketh enemy's waters" would mean that the presence of foreign goods on home
territory would automatically change the status of the territory. This
reminds me more of a Latin, or even a nomadic culture, than of a Germanic
one.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 18:11:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:11:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.111114.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Hi, Luc, and thanks for the response about this *boddeme* thing.

I get your point, and you and whoever advanced the ship theory may well be
correct.

Here is what swayed me (and I'm still not totally married to it):

   1. As Jonny mentioned, *boddem* also denotes shallow coastal waters. Even
   in German the loanword *Boddom* is still used to refer to certain
   stretches of shallow water along the Baltic Sea coast. So, I simply meant
   coastal waters, in this case those then regarded as being part of Danish
   territory. Yes, *Boddem* still means 'bottom' in Modern Low Saxon, but I
   don't think the German idea of *Boden* comes into it (leave alone *Blut
   und Boden*).

   2. This volume contains hundreds of Hanseatic documents, mostly
   correspondence, of a four-year period in the 15th century. Yet this short
   letter is the only one mentioning *boddem(e)*. If it means 'ship' and
   'ships', why are *ship* and *schepe* mentioned everywhere else rather
   than *boddeme*? If *boddom *is indeed a type of ship, was it meant to
   refer specifically to a type that only the Danes used? If so, does anyone
   know so from Danish history?

I agree that there is some awkwardness in translating "... and enemy's
merchandise maketh enemy's (territorial) waters." My immediate "intuitive"
interpretation was that this was a reference to real or *de facto* piracy,
namely claiming an area to be one's own to justify "confiscating" ships and
their contents. What this person wrote was a blatant threat, the message
being something like, "The Danes stole from me [probably by way of
"confiscating" his merchandise], and I'm going to make them pay back. So,
everyone, stay away from their territorial waters, or else we'll treat you
as the enemy!" How would he take revenge other than doing to them what they
did to him? Since he and his cohorts did not represent a sovereign nation
(and may or may not have acted without the blessings of the Hanseatic
League), they cannot be seen as a counterpart of Denmark, a sovereign
nation, even if it was considered an intrusive colonial power in that area
which the Hanseats had rather have power over in their usual *de facto*manner.

Let's remember that the borderline between "legitimate" and "illegitimate"
aggression has always been a thin one. One person's confiscation was another
person's piracy. What is now Northern Germany only had very loose
administrative structure at the time, not much overall power despite
Frankish annexation about 500 years earlier. Much of the time, the Hanseatic
Trading League ruled supreme on account of its economic power. In real
terms, it dominated domestic ports and their hinterlands and elsewhere
claimed territories by way of trading posts. As they did in Bergen,  Let's
also remember that the League had begun as a defense force against piracy,
so it was not only a benign merchants' association.

But wait! There's more! A clarifying message from our Arthur just arrived,
and I will let it speak for itself.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Dear Ron, Luc, jah anthareis:

"...vynde boddeme maket vynde gut unde vynde gut maket vynde boddeme..."

In the Hanseatic League, and thence into maritime parlance generally,
"boddeme" meant the hold or other cargo space of a commercial ship. Maritime
law still uses the term "Bottomry Brief" for a type of promissory note or
lien note to secure title to a cargo. The German legal term is
"Bodmereibrief".

Thus, I believe the translation should be "enemy cargo maketh the hold to
enemy; and an enemy hold maketh the cargo to enemy."

Goljai thuk.

Arthur
ARTHUR A. JONES

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 19:22:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:22:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.122236.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]

Beste Fred,

Kilometer is not the only word of this type. We also pronounce *ki*logram, *
ki*localorie, *ki*lojoule and *ki*lowat. Our pronunciation follows the
official rule for the pronunciation of the Dutch Compound Noun, which says,
very freely translated,                                "When we pronounce a
compound noun the Stress will fall on the first part of the noun, but the
noun will have the gender of the second part."


                    Take
"*wereld*tournooi"  and  "*wereld*kampioen": both Compound Nouns are
pronounced with stress on the first compound, but *wereld*tournooi is a
neutral "het" noun because it is het tournooi; *Wereld*kampioen is a "de"
word because de kampioen is a noun with common gender.

Just to make you happy we say "stad*huis*" and we say *Rotter*dam and Amster
*dam*. Go figure! De taal van mensen is, net als de mens zelf, illogisch.

Prettige Zondag. Jacqueline
----------

From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]

Hello, everyone.

Fred van Brederode brought up an interesting point when he wrote:

"... what everyone does is not necessarily the right thing.

The pronunciation of kilometer as kil*o*meter is completely analogous with
the pronunciation of words like barometer and thermometer. The analogy may
be the very reason for it. Most words ending on ?*o*meter however are
instruments of measurement. For that reason one might rather think that a
kil*o*meter is an instrument for measuring kilo's, than a measure of
distance.
When indicating the distance of a thousand meters, a more proper
pronunciation would probably be: *ki*lometer, stressing the first syllable.
We do the same thing with *ki*lobytes when a thousand bytes are meant. Why
change it when it comes to meters?

*Ki*lometer may be more proper, but even if it is, it still seems odd to be
the only one pronouncing the word properly.

The bottom line is I brought myself into the situation of finding both ways
of pronunciation odd."

Does this discomfort result from the fact that speakers of germanic
languages have stronger accents than other european languages?  Our tendency
to accent the first important syllable is in contrast to the less accented
(and therefore more open to different pronunciations and nuances) original
forms of italic and hellenic roots and coined terms. Look at the English
pronunciations of *pho*tograph, pho*to*graphy, and photo*graph*ic. This
convention is well accepted and regular but may have little to do with Greek
patterns of emphasis.

In English we do not consistently indicate that a word is borrowed from a
foreign language by moving the accent. We say either "ho*tel*" or "*ho*tel"
depending on dialect or suitability for desired speech rhythms. It seems to
me that saying "*ki*lometer" makes it sound like an imitation home-grown
word. That is how I pronounced it as a child, knowing the word only from the
written language. This sounds "right" to my English-Saxish conditioned
brain. It also sounds very wrong for a word made up of mediterranean roots.
Hence the dilemma that Fred and I both share.

Be well.
John Howland

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Fred,

As alluded to by John above, this stress pattern makes a lot of sense to the
average speaker of American English because it is a case of analogy and
application of "Greek stress." "Greek stress" falls on the antepenultimate
syllable, even if it does not do so in the donor language, as in "an?logy",
"ap?calypse", "h?erarchy", "archep?lago", "metam?rphosis", "?cstacy",
"ge?graphy", "c?liper", "h?rmony", "th?orem", "th?ory" and "eph?meral". This
appears to be an old rule in which fairly frequent stress pattern in Greek
(e.g. ????????? *di**?metros*) has been generalized.

Words containing "metre" ~ "meter" (< ?????? *m**?tron*) tend to be analyzed
and thus stressed as Greek loans, such as "di?meter", "micr?meter",
"bar?meter", "therm?meter", "speed?meter", "tach?meter" and "od?meter". Seen
in this light, the pronunciation "kil?meter" makes sense. However, it is not
consistently applied, as in "c?ntimeter" (not *"cent?meter") and
"m?llimeter" (not *"mill?meter"). It has been said that this Greek pattern
should only apply where "meter" is a measuring instrument. This is a rule of
thumb only, considering the case of "di?meter". But remember that the US are
still steadfast in their refusal to join the rest of the world in using the
metric system. So the average American isn't all that familiar with those
"foreign" units of measure.

I don't think there's any right and wrong, just dialectical variation. And
there are other cases in which Americans find non-American stress patterns
very strange, such as "contr?versy" (vs US "c?ntroversy") and "appl?cable"
(vs US "?pplicable").

In general, however, American English is more flexible when it comes to
stress assignment. It is less ready to Germanicize words, especially words
of Romance origin. (This may be because of long-term exposure to Spanish,
French and many other languages). British "g?raazh" ~ "g?ridge" for "garage"
(US "gar?azh") and "h?rass" (US "har?ss"), for example, sound very strange
to US American ears.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:58:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.07 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.145809.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: ll-l Inspirational words

Dear All,

My thesis is _nearly_ at submission.  For those of you who are interested,
the draft is at
http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~prar100/<http://www-users.york.ac.uk/%7Eprar100/>

I am looking for three things ....

Each section is introduced with a little quotation.  Mostly, these are
Dutch, or in English but relating to Lowlands.  For example, I use
Washington Irving's "Whenever, therefore, he happened upon a genuine Dutch
family, snugly shut up in its low-roofed farmhouse, under a spreading
sycamore, he looked upon it as a little clasped volume of black-letter, and
studied it with the zeal of a book-worm" as an introduction to the use of
wall-anchors (muurankers) in letter and number forms.

I am missing two quotations!  I need something to introduce medieval
building training practices, and I need something better than I've got
already to introduce the typology of wall anchors.

So, do you know a poem or song or piece of prose that talks about
learning/craft transmission (preferably from the middle ages), or something
that talks about diversity or decoration (can be any period, and any
language, with a Lowlands connection)?

Thirdly, I want to employ someone to proof-read the bibliography.  I am
dyslexic, and my Dutch is Very Very Bad.  I don't expect the proofreader to
do more that say 'this entry needs checking' - checking is up to me! If you
are interested in 2 or 3 hours work, spotting possible typos in a
bibliography, please drop me a line off-list.  I will pay by cheque or bank
transfer (UK) or paypal if not UK.

If everything goes to plan, I submit by 30th June, am viva'd late September
or early October, and am all finished by Christmas ... at which point I
become my own woman again, and properly contribute to this list.

Cheers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Congratulations on having come this far, Pat! The project looks great so
far.

I hope you'll find the needed help.

In the meantime I for one will be cheering you on!

Best wishes,
Reinhard(without-a-t) "Ron" Hahn

?

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:03:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.150319.0700.>

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: Culture?

Nothing linguistic, though still of cultural importance, I'd like to bring
up an observation.

In the beginning of this year I announced on our LL list the trip I was
going to make a trip to San Francisco. I have been back for ages again, but
looking at the pictures I remember a large building in the city center
flying a Dutch (Netherlands) flag: the horizontal tricolor of red, white and
blue bands. It was not the Dutch consulate or something and I remember
having seen this on the east coast (at least in New England) on a rather
large scale. Especially antique shops there fly the tricolor flag. Sometimes
they have the word "open" printed in the middle (white) band.

The legend says that Dutch was only this close to becoming the official
language of the US. We are quite convinced these days that this truly is a
legend, but the flying tricolors on the other hand are really there. Could
it be true that the independent US always regretted the British took over
and longed back for the Peter Stuijvesandt era with the good old red, white
and blue bands. Will this explain their flagging behaviour? Or would there
be some other explanation?

Groeten

Fred van Brederode
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi again, Fred!

Let me just remind you that our focus does include culture and history
besides language. So no apologies needed.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 22:05:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:05:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.150509.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]

At 01:08 PM 07/06/2008, Fred van Brederode wrote:

The past two weeks we had relations from the US in our home. Discussing the
trips to be made, one of the subjects was the distance of such trips. On
this side of the ocean cars measure distance in kilometers. Nothing special
so far. It is the pronunciation of the word kilometer that fascinated me, as
it had many times before. The visit from the US brought it back to my
attention. etc.


If I am not mistaken, originally the idea was that for measurements greater
than one meter, the Greek pronunciation would be used, such as in iambic
pentameter, odometer, speedometer, etc.  For measurements less than one
meter, the Latin was to be employed, as in millimeter, centimeter, usw.

BTW, on this side of the ocean, we also measure things in metric (and indeed
the U.S. standard is based on the metric standard, BION).  In fact, the US
is the ONLY country on this side of the world which does not measure highway
distances in meters.  I think the other country not commonly using metric is
Burma.

All that being said, the Canadian government in its infinite wisdom decided
some thirty years ago that everyone should use the Latin pronunciation for
measurements greater than one meter.

If your US friends are confused, they are not alone.  However, if they think
that the US system is simpler, just give them this quiz.  Which is heavier,
an ounce of feathers or an ounce of gold.  Wrong.  Gold is measured in
apothecary ounces, which are heaver than regular ounces.  Next question:
which is heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of gold.  Wrong again:
there are only twelve ounces in an apothecary pound, and sixteen in the
regular.

To which they will answer, "If God wanted us to go metric, he would have
given us ten Apostles instead of twelve."

However, Canadians are somewhat used to living with two systems, because
before metrification, we used the Imperial system, which had smaller ounces
and bigger gallons, different cup sizes (measuring cups, idiot), and
different measuring spoon sizes.

The bottom line is I brought myself into the situation of finding both ways
of pronunciation odd. I either do it completely wrong, or I seem to
show off knowing
it all better. Avoiding to speak in terms of kilometers is no option in this
country??


I usually make my point by telling people that I have 120,000 KILO-meters
showing on my ODO-meter.

Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Canada.  That's CAN-da.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  7 22:06:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:06:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (08) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.150649.0700.>

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From: Hugo Zweep <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (03) [E]

Dear Ron et al
I am diffident about mixing into such an elevated argument but have
instinctively recalled bottom as being associated with shipping.

I've now looked up Van Dale and find the meaning of "bodem" as including

   - onderste gedeelte van de romp van een schip
   - schip: *de onderhebbende bodem *waarover men het bevel heeft

Does that help?

Hugo Zweep

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 03:19:39 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:19:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.07 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JUN.2008.201939.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Moin, Ingmar!

You asked about another song and thought it might be in Low Saxon:

>> /bEtS@ batS@"beit@
>>  Indi ouvI"Steit@   (this part sounds German)
>>  "vIksti si
>>  "vIksti su
>>  kamdi kEtsl@"ale su
>>  a"deima ma
>>  a"deipa pa
>>  "hupsa lisa hupsa sa/
>
> Ingmar:
>
> betsje batsje beete
> in de oven steet e
> wiksti si
> wiksti su
> kam de ketsle (?) alleen su
> an de mama
> an de papa
> hupsa, Lisa, hupsasa
>
> the first is a nonsense rhyme sentence
> then: in the oven he stands
> nonsentence ??     it won't be XTC ;-)
> nonsentence ??
> came the kettle all so
> to the mama
> to the papa
> whoops, Lisa, come on

This is more likely to be a German variety, and it's about kittens (*K?tzle*).
("ale should be *alle* 'all', not *alleen* 'alone')

Might it be an German American variety? Pennsylvania German?

Talking about such, there is a website dedicated to English and "German"
varieties of the United States. (Native American ones will be added.)

http://csumc.wisc.edu/AmericanLanguages/

There are recordings with English translations.

Under "German Dialects" there are four Low Saxon varieties:

Ostf?lisch (Eastphalian)
Holsteinisch
Pommersch (Pomeranian)
Oderbr?chisch (mixed with German)

OK, Ingster, I think I'm getting warm regarding your song request. There is
a children's song of Untersteinbach, Upper Palatinate (*Oberpfalz*),
Bavaria, near the Czech border, recorded in 1910 (
http://www.heinlenews.de/geschl10a.htm):

Bitsche, batsche, Peter
hinterm Ofe stehtr,
hol a schleckigs H?tle uf,
klopft mit'm Pr?chele allweil druf.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
A floppy hat upon his head,
Keeps hitting it with a cudgel.

Apparently there are several variants of this song, probably from several
places; e.g. with a cat:

Bitsche, batsche Peter
hinterm Ofen steht er,
Flickt sein Schuh und schmiert sein Schuh.
Kommt die alte Katz dazu,
Frisst die Schmeer und frisst die Schuh,
Frisst die Schuh und frisst die Schmeer,
frisst mir alle Teller leer.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
Mending his shoe(s) and greasing his shoe(s),
And the old cat walks up to him,
Eats the grease and eats the shoe(s),
Eats the shoe(s) and eats grease,
Eats and cleans up all my plates.

Another one with a cat:

Pitsche, patsche Peter,
hinterm Ofen steht er,
putzt die Stiefel, putzt die Schuh,
kommt die schwarze Katz' dazu,
frisst den Peter samt die Schuh'.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
Brushing boots, brushing shoes.
The black cat walks up to him,
Eats our Peter shoes and all.

An adult has a small child on their lap facing them. They clap their hands
and the adult lifts and lowers their knees in the rhythm of the song. When
it comes to the eating part, the adult makes the child fall backward.

Usually without the clapping, we used to sing another song, and the action
is called "Hoppe Reiter machen", "to play gee-gees" in English:

Hoppe, hoppe, Reiter!
Wenn er f?llt, dann schreit er.
F?llt er in den Grapen,
fressen ihn die Raben.
F?llt er in dem Sumpf,
(dann) macht der Reiter plumps.

 My translation:
Bouncy, bouncy rider!
If he fell he'd scream.
If he fell into the ditch
The ravens would devour him.
If he fell into the swamp
The rider 'd go down with a thud.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:18:18 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:18:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.08 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.101818.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (04) [E]

An important note is that stress is effectively frozen in the actual
realization of the sounds in words, which seems to often be
non-productive. One cannot simply "correct" the stress pattern of a
word after the fact as the orignally reduced phonemes' underlying
forms have effectively been lost. Take the word "garage" for instance
- the pronunciation [g????a??] or [g????a?t?] here reflects and
underlying /g??ra?/ not /ge?ra?/; if it reflected the latter, then one
would in practice get alternation between reduced and unreduced
vowels, which does not show up here. Hence, the equivalent
diachronically expected forms with initial stress, [?g???????] or
[?g??????t?], are effectively inaccessible except through borrowing
from other English dialects. Furthermore, the phonemic vowel qualities
effectively encode where stress "should" be placed, as true /?/ not
before /r/ or /l/ is already reduced in the first place. (There are
phonological reasons why I consider such to be distinct from /?/ in
stressed syllables here)

The closest one can do is base the patterns within new words
constructed from older words off synchronically existing alternations
associated with the morphemes used in the words in question. Take
"photograph" [?fo(??)??g??????f] , "photography" [f??t?a?g??fi?],
"photographic" [fo(??)???g??????f??k], "photographically"
[fo(??)???g??????f??kx??i?], and "photographer" [f??t?a?g??f???] for
instance. I would myself not consider such to actually reflect any
sort of synchronically productive mobile stress but rather three
distinct allomorphs of its synchronic root "photograph", specifically
/?fot?gr???f/, /f??tagr?f/, and /fot??gr???f/, whose actual
distribution are determined as much by morphology and analogy as
phonology. And while the two allomorphs /?fot?gr???f/ and
/fot??gr???f/ are derivable from each other in the sense that primary
stress is only moved between syllables which would be stressed in
realization, they cannot derive nor be derived from the allomorph
/f??tagr?f/ as its stress falls on a syllable which is unstressed in
the other two allomorphs and whose original underlying form has
subsequently been lost in them. Once again, said underlying forms
having been permanently phonemically reduced is shown by the lack of
free variation between stressed and unstressed realizations in words
using particular allomorphs.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks and bravo, Travis! This is certainly important to realize in cases of
languages such as English, Scots and other languages (such as Russian) that
have unpredictable stress assignment and significant vowel reduction in
"un"-stressed syllable.

This is not to say that certain phenomena of vowel reduction do not occur in
other languages as well, including those in the Lowlands.

Interestingly, Low Saxon tended to aim for easier management by reducing to
zero unstressed syllables in borrowed nouns with final stress; French *
courage* [ku??a??] > *kraasch' *[kr???] ~ *kraasch* [kr???] 'courage',
(Latin *advocatus*) > *Afkaat *[?af?k???t] 'lawyer', 'barrister', Greek
??????? *apoth??k**?* > Latin *apotheca* > *Apteek* [?ap?t???k] ~
*Afteek*[?af?t???k] (> Kashubian
*apteka*, Polish *apteka*, Russian ?????? *apteka*, Latvian *aptieka*,
Estonian *apteek*, Finnish *apteeki*) 'pharmacy'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:47:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:47:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.08 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.104725.0700.>

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From: Soenke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2008.06.07 (03) [E]

Op'n Sa., den 07. Jun.'08, hett R. F. Hahn dit Klock 20.11 schreven:

Hi Ron, Jonny and all,

even though the puzzle seems to be solved by Arthur Jones' remarks, I have a
few thoughts left on it.

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

 Hi, Luc, and thanks for the response about this boddeme thing.
>
> I get your point, and you and whoever advanced the ship theory may well be
> correct.
>
> Here is what swayed me (and I'm still not totally married to it):
> As Jonny mentioned, boddem also denotes shallow coastal waters. Even in
> German the loanword Boddom is still used to refer to certain stretches of
> shallow water along the Baltic Sea coast.
>
Do you refer to "Bodden" here, as in "Greifswalder Bodden"?

 So, I simply meant coastal waters, in this case those then regarded as
> being part of Danish territory. Yes, Boddem still means 'bottom' in Modern
> Low Saxon, but I don't think the German idea of Boden comes into it (leave
> alone Blut und Boden).
>
Is "Bodde*m*" above a typo, or a LS word I don't know? To my knowledge there
are two words in LS that I suppose to be cognates of E "bottom" (ground;
also: buttocks), D "bodem" (ground; also: ship), Swedish "botten" (ground).
These are
1. B?yn (~B??n, B?hn) - attic, ceiling, cf. G (Dach-)Boden
2. Bodden (~Borden, Borrn) - ground, area (of land), soil

While at least in modern Low Saxon certainly the word "Grund" would be used
to evoke the associations linked to "Boden" in German (as in G "Auf meinem
Boden ...", LS "Op mien Grund ...", "On my [premises/property/estates](?)..."),
I don't know whether this was the case during the middle-ages as well...

 This volume contains hundreds of Hanseatic documents, mostly
> correspondence, of a four-year period in the 15th century. Yet this short
> letter is the only one mentioning boddem(e). If it means 'ship' and 'ships',
> why are ship and schepe mentioned everywhere else rather than boddeme?
>

Besides Arthur Jones' explanation, which I find more convincing, the reason
could be that Jonny's sentence was a proverb/idiom/rule of thumb, already
old at that time. Everybody would have known its meaning, but it would
rarely have been written down in formal letters to and from the "honourable
gentlemen" of the hansa league. Similarly, "First come, first serve" is a
widely used legal principle, but I assume you won't find it very often in
legal writs.

Have a nice day!
S?nke

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, S?nke, for those excellent points!

Yes, *Boddem* ~ *Bodden* was an error on my part.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:49:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:49:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.08 (03) [A]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.104907.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [D]

Haai almal,

Theo, s? tog asb uit watter gedig dit kom sodat ek die woord binne konteks
kan bekyk?
Is dit deur Eugene Marais?

Elsie
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:57:39 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:57:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.08 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.105739.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.07 (09) [E]

Hey, thank you so much Reineling!
Yes, that looks a lot like it.
But I'm really intrigued now how an old Dutch grandmother with dementia in
the US is able to remember children's songs in both Frisian and German
dialect. I'll ask her grandson about that...

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

Moin, Ingmar!

You asked about another song and thought it might be in Low Saxon:

>> /bEtS@ batS@"beit@
>>  Indi ouvI"Steit@   (this part sounds German)
>>  "vIksti si
>>  "vIksti su
>>  kamdi kEtsl@"ale su
>>  a"deima ma
>>  a"deipa pa
>>  "hupsa lisa hupsa sa/
>
> Ingmar:
>
> betsje batsje beete
> in de oven steet e
> wiksti si
> wiksti su
> kam de ketsle (?) alleen su
> an de mama
> an de papa
> hupsa, Lisa, hupsasa
>
> the first is a nonsense rhyme sentence
> then: in the oven he stands
> nonsentence ??     it won't be XTC ;-)
> nonsentence ??
> came the kettle all so
> to the mama
> to the papa
> whoops, Lisa, come on

This is more likely to be a German variety, and it's about kittens
(*K??tzle*).
("ale should be *alle* 'all', not *alleen* 'alone')

Might it be an German American variety? Pennsylvania German?

Talking about such, there is a website dedicated to English and "German"
varieties of the United States. (Native American ones will be added.)

http://csumc.wisc.edu/AmericanLanguages/

There are recordings with English translations.

Under "German Dialects" there are four Low Saxon varieties:

Ostf??lisch (Eastphalian)
Holsteinisch
Pommersch (Pomeranian)
Oderbr??chisch (mixed with German)

OK, Ingster, I think I'm getting warm regarding your song request. There is
a children's song of Untersteinbach, Upper Palatinate (*Oberpfalz*),
Bavaria, near the Czech border, recorded in 1910 (
http://www.heinlenews.de/geschl10a.htm):

Bitsche, batsche, Peter
hinterm Ofe stehtr,
hol a schleckigs H??tle uf,
klopft mit'm Pr??chele allweil druf.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
A floppy hat upon his head,
Keeps hitting it with a cudgel.

Apparently there are several variants of this song, probably from several
places; e.g. with a cat:

Bitsche, batsche Peter
hinterm Ofen steht er,
Flickt sein Schuh und schmiert sein Schuh.
Kommt die alte Katz dazu,
Frisst die Schmeer und frisst die Schuh,
Frisst die Schuh und frisst die Schmeer,
frisst mir alle Teller leer.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
Mending his shoe(s) and greasing his shoe(s),
And the old cat walks up to him,
Eats the grease and eats the shoe(s),
Eats the shoe(s) and eats grease,
Eats and cleans up all my plates.

Another one with a cat:

Pitsche, patsche Peter,
hinterm Ofen steht er,
putzt die Stiefel, putzt die Schuh,
kommt die schwarze Katz' dazu,
frisst den Peter samt die Schuh'.

My translation:
Patty, patty, Peter
Standing behind the stove,
Brushing boots, brushing shoes.
The black cat walks up to him,
Eats our Peter shoes and all.

An adult has a small child on their lap facing them. They clap their hands
and the adult lifts and lowers their knees in the rhythm of the song. When
it comes to the eating part, the adult makes the child fall backward.

Usually without the clapping, we used to sing another song, and the action
is called "Hoppe Reiter machen", "to play gee-gees" in English:

Hoppe, hoppe, Reiter!
Wenn er f??llt, dann schreit er.
F??llt er in den Grapen,
fressen ihn die Raben.
F??llt er in dem Sumpf,
(dann) macht der Reiter plumps.

 My translation:
Bouncy, bouncy rider!
If he fell he'd scream.
If he fell into the ditch
The ravens would devour him.
If he fell into the swamp
The rider 'd go down with a thud.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Songs

"Reineling"?! That's a new and very funny-sounding one. It sounds a bit like
a type of mushroom to me, in this case probably a hallucinogenic type.

Ingmar, I heard about German women going to work in the Netherlands in the
19th and early 20th centuries, mostly as maids, nannies and such. So they
could have passed on such songs then.

Dementia often comes with retrieval of early childhood memories.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 17:59:34 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:59:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.08 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.105934.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (07) [E]

I have been out of town for a week or so and am just now going through my
emails in reverse chronological order, so if someone has already contributed
this tidbit, please forgive.

Considering the Lowlandic / Germanic construction:
1.      Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?
Low Saxon: Wat v?r eyn (~ 'n) hund is dat? (Wat f?r een (~ 'n) Hund is dat?)
German: Was f?r ein Hund ist das?

We also have here one of the clearest cases where there was Germanic
syntactic borrowing into Russian (and other North Slavic languages ... and
Bulgarian, which at times acts as an hono(u)rary Russian):

E.g.
 *??? ?? ??????* ? ???? ????? ??? ????? (lifted from a quick google search)
What for (a) dog in our time without fleas?

 Interesting here is also that the object of the preposition; where we
should expect an accusative, it is instead in the nominative (something that
prepositional objects are NEVER supposed to do!) ... leading me to believe
that maybe they borrowed the syntax, and then couldn't make heads nor tails
of what to do with the morphology! (or maybe that TOO is borrowed?)


PS If you are in a country with relatively reliable railtransport, count
your lucky stars; Ishara just had an international Deaf camp in the hills up
north of Delhi (outside of Dehradun, a bea-UT-iful place, if you know it),
and everybody who attended but myself and the one Deaf trustee came back by
train. Up to Delhi it was no problem; unfortunately practically all the
trains from Delhi down to Bombay go through Rajasthan (and for the group of
11 or so from Gujarat it is the same story i imagine), and this past 10 days
has been a somewhat violent bandh (protest-cum-transport-stoppage) by the
Gujjars, an ethnic group concentrated mostly in Rajasthan, who are trying to
get Scheduled Caste (SC) status ... something similar to American
affirmative action, but more so (X% of government jobs, Y% of university
seats, etc reserved for members of the caste), and so almost all my staff
had their trains cancelled out from under them. Somehow though they all made
it back (standing-room only for the 26 hr trip is the commonest story I
"heard") ... and on time to start work today ... with smiles on their faces
... something *I* may not have been able to manage had it been me!

MWM || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 18:23:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:23:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Translation" 2008.06.08 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.112337.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.04 (02) [E]

Just an aside (as I have been brushing up my Pali)
Mel Vassey has as closing quote the following verse from *Yammakavagga verse
5 *ta the beginning of the *Dhammapada:*
**

> "For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love -
> this is the eternal law."  - Buddha
>

Which I believe is Max Mueller's classic translation. The Pali "original"
(who knows WHAT the Budha actually said, but anyway) is:

*na hi verena ver?ni, sammant?dha kud?cana? |
averena ca sammanti, esa dhammo sanantano ||*

Although I BASICALLY have no argument with the SENTIMENT of the translation,
it is a litle too ... Christian? with a little too little Buddhist
dialectic?

*na hi verena ver?ni* is clearly "not indeed by hatred are hatreds
(plural!)...". However, *averena* in the next half-verse is NOT "by love",
it is "by the lack (*a-*) of *verena*" ... a lack of hatred / enmity /
quarrel. This is more in keeping with the Buddhist goal of non-attachment
(non-attachment to EITHER "bad" OR "good" emotions). "Love" would be okay,
IF you could come up with a good "English" (Latin/Greek) word that is less
"active". The closest *I* can come up with a positive/negative pair in the
same semantic ballpark is pathos/apathy ... but my attempts to work THOSe
into a translation, i am afraid, skated the thin ice of heresy! (Okay, as a
Buddhist, I KNOW we do not generally believe in burning heretics at the
stake, but ... well I will just play it safe and leave it at that!)

PS My Greek is pitifully poor for an ex-Indo-europeanist, but is there a
"gape" to go with "agape"? Maybe THAT might do the trick... or not.

MWM || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Translation

Mike,

You wrote:

*verena*" ... a lack of hatred / enmity / quarrel. This is more in keeping
with the Buddhist goal of non-attachment (non-attachment to EITHER "bad" OR
"good" emotions). "Love" would be okay, IF you could come up with a good
"English" (Latin/Greek) word that is less "active". The closest *I* can come
up with a positive/negative pair in the same semantic ballpark is
pathos/apathy ...

How about "(kind-hearted) acceptance" or "(compassionate) tolerance"?

Translating "Eastern" philosophical texts into European languages comes with
many such hurdles, including the case of English, which is relatively
flexible and offers a wealth of lexical possibilities.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 18:25:21 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:25:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.08 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.112521.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anthropology" 2008.06.04 (05) [E]

Mark wrote:

  On the other hand, Indo-Germanic for example can by its terminological
> features be (persuasively) traced back to a specific geographic origin
>

If that were true then a LARGE section of the Indo-Europeanist scholarly
community would have nothing to write books about ... YES, there ARE
persuasive arguments for specific geographic originS ... and equally
persuasive arguments for otherS. Hereabouts (India), I don't hesitate to say
that the average Indo-Europeanist says you all came from HERE rather than
vice versa; in Russia quite a different Homeland wins the day. (Of course
the persuasive arguments on BOTH sides are NOT untinged by a bit of
nationalism, but that does NOt make them any the less persuasive).

MWM || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 20:57:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:57:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.08 (08) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.135759.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [A]

Haai julle,

Theo,

Dit is bekend dat ou doringboomspesies baie lank vat om uit te brand, en
dalk suggereer die
"swart-doringhout" dat 'n meer weerbarstige kool gaan vorm, wat ure se hitte
en lig aan 'n vryer
kan verskaf. Sekere akasiaspesies se stamme word swart hoe ouer die bome
word.

'n Ander moontlikheid: Marais het vir lang tye in die Ooste gereis (volgens
JC Kannemeyer ?Geskiedenis van die Afrikaanse Literatuur), en my eerste
gedagte was dat kohl (waarmee o? omlyn word), gemaak word deur hout

wat swart as agterlaat, 'n beter keuse sou wees om 'n goeie kwaliteit kohl
mee te maak. Haar belangstelling om vryers te wil lok, is dus daarmee heen.

Ek sluit die gedig onder in.

Elsie

*Die Towenares ? Eugene Marais*

Wat word van die meisie wat altyd alleen bly?

Sy wag nie meer vir die kom van die jagters nie;

sy maak nie meer die vuur van swart-doringhout nie.

Die wind waai verby haar ore;

sy hoor nie meer die danslied nie;

die stem van die storie-verteller is dood.

G'neen roep haar van ver nie

om mooi woorde te praat.

Sy hoor net die stem van die wind alleen,

en die wind treur altyd

omdat hy alleen is.

-----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.08 (03) [A]

> From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [D]
>
> Haai almal,
>
> Theo, s? tog asb uit watter gedig dit kom sodat ek die
> woord binne konteks
> kan bekyk?
> Is dit deur Eugene Marais?

Jawel, Elsie,

en wel uit: towenares

[Ach, ach, ik geef het maar toe: uit een aantal Afrikaanse liefdesgedigte;
hebben ze daar ook.]

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Translation" 2008.06.08 (06) [E]

R/R,

Yes, I entirely agree that the sense proposed of "(kind-hearted) acceptance"
or "(compassionate) tolerance" instead of the inelegant "a lack of hatred /
enmity / quarrel" for *averena* is "true" i was just trying to get to the
dialectic that pervades Buddhist teachings ... as manifest in the negative
prefix *a-.*

> Translating "Eastern" philosophical texts into European languages comes
with many such hurdles,
> including the case of English, which is relatively flexible and offers a
wealth of lexical possibilities.
 But then too translating even (sic!) Hegel or Heideger into English can
also demand a greater gift of flexibility than most of us non-yogis possess!
(One could of course argue that post Max-Muellerian European philosophy was
"Eastern" perhaps ...)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Lexicon

Mike,

"Dispassion"?

"Eastern" = "newly introduced"

This is why people tend to use loanwords for convenience.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 14:00:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.08 (09) [E]
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]

In message <57c981290806071503j7ee6d4c3yc51b9b6ed4f24935 at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> i.e. Fred van Brederode writes

> In the beginning of this year I announced on our LL list the trip I was
> going to make a trip to San Francisco. I have been back for ages again, but
> looking at the pictures I remember a large building in the city center
> flying a Dutch (Netherlands) flag: the horizontal tricolor of red, white and
> blue bands. It was not the Dutch consulate or something and I remember
> having seen this on the east coast (at least in New England) on a rather
> large scale. Especially antique shops there fly the tricolor flag. Sometimes
> they have the word "open" printed in the middle (white) band.
>
> The legend says that Dutch was only this close to becoming the official
> language of the US. We are quite convinced these days that this truly is a
> legend, but the flying tricolors on the other hand are really there. Could
> it be true that the independent US always regretted the British took over
> and longed back for the Peter Stuijvesandt era with the good old red, white
> and blue bands. Will this explain their flagging behaviour? Or would there
> be some other explanation?
>

Interesting .... my first question would be 'does this flag really refer to
the Netherlands, or is it co-incidental, or is there a link but not one that
the flag-fliers would necessarily be aware of?  This page:
http://www.americanflagshoppe.com/flagstore/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=12suggests
there is no Netherlands reference.  'Red white and blue' may seem
the 'natural' flag colours in the US because they are on the US flag.
 Americans don't seem to think it has anything to do with the Netherlands:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/733717

On the other hand, I do think that 'becoming American' was seen by many of
the descendents of people who settled in the 'Dutch' colonies was viewed as
a positive change from being/becoming a 'British colonial'. In part that was
because even at the point where the British took over, even Manhattan was
not Holland-in-America: for one thing the diversity national and ethnic
backgrounds of people here was remarkable: 'being Dutch' was also an issue.

Can I recomend 'Holland Mania' by Annette Stott?  This charts the re-use of
Dutch icons in the United States

Cheers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  8 22:07:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 15:07:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.08 (10) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JUN.2008.150726.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: Language Varieties

I've copied a part of a discussion at the Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia, about
a mean orthography for Low Saxon in the Netherlands and in Germany. The
name I use there is "Chamavian" - because I was born in Hamaland, in Latin
Chamavia, named after the ancient Germanic tribe of the Chamavii. Btw that
was a Frankish, not a Saxon tribe, however the dialect spoken there
nowadays is considered to be typicaly Low Saxon. Dutch, the Standard
language of Hamaland, as a part of the Netherlands, is Low Franconian.

Anyway, I concluded here that there is not such a thing as one Low Saxon
language, and that Low Saxon from the Netherlands and LS from Germany can
actually be seen as two different languages. Just like Swedish and Danish
or Norwegian are closely related, but different, independent languages.
Or Castillian (Spanish), Portuguese, Catalan, Galician, Asturian, Leonese,
Valencian are all closely related Iberian but seperate languages.

Actually, Swedish and Norwegian, or Norwegian and Danish are much closer
to eachother then NL Low Saxon and DL Low Saxon generally are.
So are most Iberian languages. So are Bulgarian and Macedonian, or
Serbian, Croatian and Bosniak, or Czech and Slovak.

If even Dutch and Afrikaans are considered to be different languages, how
can we maintain that Low Saxon is one language?

Therefor I think it is better to speak of the Low Saxon languageS (plural).
Only in the Netherlands there may already be three linguistically
different Low Saxon languages: a Northern one, a South Western and a South
Eastern one.

I know this will not be a popular point of view to some of us here, but
that's how I think about it right now

Ingmar

Wee'j, deur al die discussies oaver de mandielige spelling veur
Nedersaksisch in Nederlaand en Duutslaand is mij ien ding dudelik eworden:
eigenlik bint 't gewoon verschillende talen. Misschien vrogger niet, mar
nou deur de lange en h??vige invlod van de Standaordtalen wel. Nederduuts
is gien Nedersaksisch en aansumme. Okee, 't Achterhoeks van mien
geboorteplaats Wenters(wiek) lek barre veule op 't Westm??nsterlaands van
de Duutse naoberplasen Vraene (Vreden) en Bokelt (Bocholt) en dat zal
langes aandere greinzen ok wel iens zo weden, mar oaver 't algemien
bint 't toch vr??mde talen veur mekare. Binnen 't NL Nedersaksisch bint de
verschillen al zo groot, lat staon oaver de greinzen. Mu'w daor nog mit
perberen een ienheid te worden? Ik wete, 't is vluken in de karke, mar zo
zie'k 't wel nou Chamavian 18:44, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)

Daor he-j gelieke an, ik ware van de weke doonde um een artikel te
vertalen uut 't Platduuts mar dat was m'n een uutzeukerieje, eers 't
Platduutse woord ummezetten naor 't Duuts, dan 't Duutse woord opzeuken
dat geet allemaole neet zo vlogge, dan mu-j nog ees de grammatica anpassen
zodat 't een bietjen te begriepen is... man-man wat een gedo, krek twee
amparte talen! S??rv?????? | Overleg ?? 19:25, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)
Wat wi-j mit een taal die hum uutstrekt t??t an Denemarken en wel-wet-waor
in Oost-Duutslaand. De dialecten k??rtan Nederlaand liekt nog altied meer
op oenzende as op die an de varre kaante. Veural dus aj oaver 't skienbare
verskil henkiekt det deur de verskillende skriefwiezen kump. Ik hebbe ok
muite mit 't Platduuts, mar viene 't wal barre interessaant. Wi'j hebt
affiniteit mit menare en kunt menare haalfstaon (mit projecten op
Wikipedia ezw.). Det lik mi'j 't belangriekste, daorumme zie ik ok geern
dew in de maande warkt. Ni'jluuseger 20:12, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)

En dat is allennig nog mar op papier... noh ja, of op 't scharm dan. Ik
deinke dat 't verstaon van mekare in levendig lief hielemaole muilik zol
weden. Kiek, wij k??nt ook allemaole wel aordig wat herkennen in een
Deense, Noorse of Zweedse eschreven tekst, mar van een Skandinavische film
begriepe wij zunder ondertitels krek zo veule as van een Italiaanse of
Spaonse (of weiniger, in mien geval). En Duuts is ook hiel wat makkeliker
te verstaon veur oens as "Platduuts", wees mar eerlik, want Duuts he'w
as 't goed is op schoele had of kenne wij van Derrick en Schimanski ;-)
En 't lek verrekte veul op Nederlaands, natuurlik, die twei talen hebt een
grote onderlinge verstaonbaorheid. Ik deinke dat wij deur oenze kennis
van 't Duuts juust 't Nederduuts beter verstaot as aandersumme.

Wat wi'k nou eigenlik zeggen: misschien mu'w mar gewoon toegeven dat der
meer as ien Nedersaksische taal is, en niet oaver Nedersaksisch dialecten,
mar oaver Nedersaksische talen praoten. Krek a'j Skandinavische talen
hebt, die ook dichtebij mekare staot mar toch verschillend en z??lfstaandig
bint. Of de Iberische talen: Spaons (Castiliaans), Catalaans, Galicisch,
Portugees, Leonees, Asturiaans.

As indieling zo'j dan in Nederlaand allennig al drei Nedersaksische talen
hebben:

1) Grunnings en Noord-Dreints (verwant mit Oost-Fries en ook Noordelik
Nederduuts) 2) Zuud-Dreints, Stellingwarfs, Sallaands, Oost-Veluws
(verwant mit Benthems in DL) 3) Twents en Achterhoeks (verwant mit 't
Westm??nsterlaandse Westfaals in DL)

En die heufdtalen kunt weer in dialecten en subdialecten onderverdield
worden:

bv bij 2] heufddialecten:

2a Zuud-West-Dreints (M??ppelt, Hogeveine etc) 2b Zuud-Oost-Dreints (Emmen,
Koevern etc) 2c Stellingwarfs (Wolvege, Oosterwolde etc) 2d
Stienwiekerlaands (Kop van Oaveriessel) 2e West-Sallaands (Zwolle, Kaampen
etc) 2f Oost-Sallaands (Raolte, Ommen, Nieverdal etc) 2g Oost-Veluws
(Apeldoorne, Heerde etc) 2h Benthems (Emmelkaamp DL etc)

Chamavian 22:30, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

In this case and in analogous cases, going one way or another primarily
requires a type of value judgment depending on your bias. There is no
clear-cut formula, nor is this entirely measurable.

You can either look at the large picture while ignoring details, or you can
forget about the large picture and focus on details and find a plethora of
differences that seem to justify all sorts of divisions. You can also have
orthographic differences weigh in and pretend they are inseparable from
language and are not resolvable.

I put it to you that, if you go this latter way, you ought to be consistent
and chop Low Saxon up even further and call the various parts languages, at
the very least North Saxon, East Frisian, Eastphalian, Northeastern Low
Saxon, Southeastern Low Saxon, and Westphalian on the German side, and
probably more parts > languages on the Netherlands side, for putting for
instance Groningen LS (which I consider part of North Saxon) and Twente LS
(which I consider part of Westphalian) into one pot would mean ignoring
details that elsewhere are not ignored.

Furthermore, division by country is tantamount to playing up respective
national influences to bolster one's argument. The opposite would be to
focus on the broad common base and consider the rather recent alienating
influences relatively insignificant.

In the case of Low Saxon, fragmentation is in actual fact life-threatening,
not only linguistic differences but also as far as attitudes and mindsets
are concerned. Few people are prepared to look beyond their local dialects,
and in this mindset (which I call "myopic") every little difference seems
enormous, even from village to village. For instance, in Eastern Friesland
and Emsland dialects (in Germany) many words and expressions are those that
are used in Netherlands LS and in Dutch. Yet, few people would consider
these dialects belonging to a different language. In Groningen they
say *du*(written
*doe*) for 'thou', as in Germany and unlike other LS dialects in the
Netherlands. Add to this *aai* for *ei* etc., and you can either make the
argument that Groningen dialects belong to North Saxon or, considering Dutch
influences and nationalistic interests as well as difference of orthography,
that they represent yet another language. My point is that you can go two
ways, but that you should then follow through methodically and consistently
rather than stop at the half-assed solution of dividing Low Saxon along a
political boundary, for Dutch vs German influences seem like a weak argument
to me, and artificial things like orthographic issues ought not be brought
into it.

As far as mutual comprehensibility are concerned (aside from orthography,
which is resolvable), there are people that cannot understand the dialect of
a couple of villages down the road, and there are people that have no
serious problem understanding people hundreds of miles away across a
national boundary or two. Most of this has to do with experience and with
attitude, and experience and attitude are not set in stone; they can change.

What you are proposing is in my opinion analogous for instance to Galician
vs. Portuguese. Linguists that do not consider the border between Spain and
Portugal consider the two one language. Differences between the two,
including Castilian influences on Galician, are not very significant.
Differences in spelling convention enhance the illusion of division
visually. And those that *want* the division will play up all of these
relatively insignificant differences.

It is also analogous to the case of Ulster Scots vs. Mainland Scots which
some interest groups in Ulster wish to make official. On the other hand, I
know of no real movement demanding that Shetlandic be officially separate
from Scots, even though arguments for this would seem far more compelling.
But, see, Mainland Scots and Shetlandic are both used in Scotland, while
Ulster Scots is used outside Scotland and many Ulster Protestants wish to be
seen as an indigenous group in its own right, not as a bunch of Scots that
ought to be sent home as has been demanded by certain Catholic groups. So
it's a political thing, and you can not argue that the case of Low Saxon is
devoid of political considerations.

For me personally language survival is the most important thing.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:04:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JUN.2008.100423.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: quotations

> From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: ll-l Inspirational words

> I am missing two quotations!  I need something to introduce
> medieval
> building training practices, and I need something better
> than I've got
> already to introduce the typology of wall anchors.

Pat,

No, I can't help you.
Sorry.

But here is a way out, so you can have some piece of mind:

THE BOOK: [I'm capitalizing, because you are dyslectic:)]

Jan en Kasper Luiken
Spiegel van het Menselyk Bedryf
Vertoonende Honderd verscheiden Ambachten
Te Amsterdam By de Erven van F. Houttuyn
MDCCLXVII

THE  PAGE:
69

THE SUBJECT:
De Steensaager = the stone-sawyer

THE TEXT:

De Steensaager

Patsiensi werck, gestaadich aan,
Komd eindling nog wel eens gedaan:
O swaare Steen, van 's leevens tyden!
De Dach en Nacht haald heen en weer,
De Saag des Tyds sinckt staadich neer,
Tot dat sich Ziel en Lichaam scheiden.

THEOLOGICAL COMMENT:
The stone-sawyer splits the stone in two parts.
Time will split soul and body.
---------------------

You see, Pat, so they will understand that you are also anchoring in moral
values.

vr. gr.
Theo

?

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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:26:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.09 (02) [E]
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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.08 (04) [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2008.06.07 (09) [E]
>
> Hey, thank you so much Reineling!
> Yes, that looks a lot like it.
> But I'm really intrigued now how an old Dutch grandmother with dementia in
> the US is able to remember children's songs in both Frisian and German
> dialect. I'll ask her grandson about that...

Mind you that in some areas in the US and Canada the final triumph of
English over all other non-first generation immigrant languages other
than Spanish and French only occurred in the very recent past. I
remember particularly my father's maternal grandma, who was born here
in southeastern Wisconsin and who was literate in German up until the
point that she died, which was only the early 1980s. Furthermore,
there are limited areas where that point still has not come yet, such
as parts of rural Pennsylvania and Texas (in the case of German
dialects), parts of rural North Dakota and Minnesota (in the case of
Norwegian dialects), and parts of the Chicago and, to a lesser extent,
Milwaukee areas (in the case of Polish). It is quite conceivable that
she may have spoken Dutch to a relatively old age, all things
considered.

Furthermore, in the case of dementia, it is not uncommon for
individuals to forget languages which they learned later in life and
regress to speaking only their native language or only languages
learned at a young age, even if they have not spoken them in decades.
That reminds me of a problem here in Milwaukee, where sometimes older
people with Alzheimers' will forget the English they learned decades
ago and regress to speaking Polish, but no one other than
zeroeth-generation immigrants under the age of 60 or so here speaks
any Polish; hence, there is practically no one who would be able to
take care of them who is able to communicate with them, due to Polish
having never been transmitted on to my parents' generation here.
(However, though, I hear that in the Chicago area Polish is actually
still a living language amongst people around my age (23 years old),
to my amazement; my sister moved down to an apartment down there, and
the people who run the place actually natively speak Polish, despite
being born in the US and being not much older than me myself.)

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language use

Hi, Travis *et al*.!

German Americans still belong to the largest groups in this country, and you
are talking about far more people if we count people of partly German
descent, even if only those that are aware of it and retain some bits of
German linguistic and cultural heritage.

Here in Washington State, for instance, or if we only take the Puget Sound
area of Western Washington, is known for its Scandinavian heritage,
particularly its Norwegian heritage, and there's a long-standing
intermarriage connection with Minnesota. Also, many people here still speak
Scandinavian languages, and other Nordic languages can also still be heard
(including Faroese, Icelandic, Estonian and Finnish). However, a few years
ago I looked at a list of ethnic affiliation based on census data, and the
number for German was far greater than that for Nordic ethnicities combined.
It is only that even those that consider themselves German Americans, just
like those that consider themselves "Dutch" Americans (with fairly high
concentrations in the north of the state), are not very noticeable. Few of
them make a song and dance about it, literally or figuratively. Yet when I
talk to them they tell me what bits of German they learned as children, how
they celebrate Christmas in the German way, the German foods they eat, that
they called their grandparents Oma and Opa, and so forth. Many of them don't
even have German-sounding names because of name changes and so forth. And
among them I know several that are partly African American and/or Native
American. Also, there are those whose elders speak or spoke "Platt".
Similarly, I am told that many of the "Dutch" in the north speak or spoke
Low Saxon or Frisian. It is only that German and Dutch people tended to be
more ready to melt into the general population. Also, they arrived in this
country over a long period of time, while many Scandinavians arrived at
certain lean times in the old country and thus had an easier time seeing
themselves are communities. Furthermore, World War II caused many German
Americans to hide their heritage.

Furthermore, in the case of dementia, it is not uncommon for
individuals to forget languages which they learned later in life and
regress to speaking only their native language or only languages
learned at a young age, even if they have not spoken them in decades.

Quite so. A friend told me that after her stroke the only language his
grandmother could speak was her native Yiddish. Her Ukrainian, Russian and
English were altogether gone.

Some of the "older" Lowlanders will pardon me for relating the following
story again. I had an old professor who in his nineties fell seriously ill.
We took turns watching over him. He was heavily drugged because of pain. I
suppose that drugged state was a sort of dementia. All of a sudden he
started mumbling in Mandarin. His lack of Chinese proficiency had been known
to be *the* handicap in his line of research (Altaic Studies, particularly
Mongolistics). Officially his first language had been Finnish because of his
Finnish mother, and as a child he knew some German because of German
speakers on his father's side of the family. His father was a (Tsarist)
Russian diplomat in Manchuria. When things got really bad politically, he
sent his wife and son "home" to St. Petersburg, but the kid had never been
to Russia before. This is were he learned Russian while still speaking
Finnish with his mother (and during summers in Finland, then a Russian
colony), and German with certain relatives. Later we learned that in
Manchuria he had had a Chinese nanny with whom he spent most of his time and
from whom he learned Mandarin. Mandarin was thus his true first language,
even though he never advanced beyond child level. Later his father had him
visit him back in Manchuria and as a surprise had the nanny visit from
Beijing, but the kid had forgotten practically all his Mandarin by that
time.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  9 17:28:38 2008
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Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:28:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (03) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]

Fred asked: "Will this explain their flagging behaviour? Or would there be
some other explanation?"

I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
flags with open on them are common all over Texas.  I never thought of them
as representing anything other than U.S. colors.  I commonly see those flags
at used car dealerships.  Used car salesmen have a reputation here of being
"less than honest."  Therefore, I doubt that you'd want to claim those flags
as Dutch ;-).
Mark Brooks

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  9 19:17:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:17:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.09 (05) [E]
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.09 (01) [E]

Hi all,

I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
This message ought to go to an other adress.

I must be not compos mentis.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  9 19:15:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:15:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]

Fred asked: "Is there such a thing as a right pronunciation?. Has anyone
dealt with the "problem" before? What was your solution?"

I for one pronounce it with stress on the first syllable ? k?lometer.
However, I frequently hear it both ways.  For what it's worth, Spanish
pronounces it with stress on the second syllable ? kil?metro.  I traveled in
Europe many years ago, but I doubt that has had any effect on my
pronounciation.

Mark Brooks
----------

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.08 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Thanks and bravo, Travis! This is certainly important to realize in cases
of
> languages such as English, Scots and other languages (such as Russian)
that
> have unpredictable stress assignment and significant vowel reduction in
> "un"-stressed syllable.

The matter is that with Old English, there was effectively limited
fixed phonemic stress, so that most words had stress on the first
syllable of the root (and not just the first syllable). Yet at the
same time, both Early New English and Middle Scots acquired a lot of
very conscious loans from languages with mobile stress (both phonemic
and allophonic), to the point that the stress alternation patterns in
larger words constructed from them were borrowed with them. (There
were a good amount of such loans during the Middle English period, but
they were far more strongly nativized, and hence much more closely
match native English stress patterns.) But the matter is that Anglic
dialects as a whole, both English and Scots, never have been true
mobile stress languages. Hence the system you see in English and Scots
today effectively reflect the shoehorning of loans with mobile stress
into a native system with fixed phonemic stress. As they never had a
true native system of mobile stress, the borrowed mobile stress of
many loanwords came to be associated with said loanwords and words
constructed from them; effectively, it got frozen through the
development of allomorphy of such words' morphemes. Furthermore, due
to internally having fixed phonemic stress, there was a strong
tendency for vowel reduction to become phonemicized, as there would be
a lack of sufficient stress movement to reinforce the unreduced
underlying forms in question. Of course, due to the borrowed mobile
stress of loanwords really being underlying allomorphy, such
phonemicization of unstressed vowels would also have been applied to
each allomorph individually. As a result, many of the allomorphs
reflecting borrowed mobile stress would have been permanently
separated phonologically, as the original unreduced forms that
differed only in primary stress placement would have been rendered
unrecoverable phonologically.

> This is not to say that certain phenomena of vowel reduction do not occur
in
> other languages as well, including those in the Lowlands.
>
> Interestingly, Low Saxon tended to aim for easier management by reducing
to
> zero unstressed syllables in borrowed nouns with final stress; French
> courage [ku??a??] > kraasch' [kr???] ~ kraasch [kr???] 'courage', (Latin
> advocatus) > Afkaat [?af?k???t] 'lawyer', 'barrister', Greek ???????
> apoth??k? > Latin apotheca > Apteek [?ap?t???k] ~ Afteek [?af?t???k] (>
> Kashubian apteka, Polish apteka, Russian ?????? apteka, Latvian aptieka,
> Estonian apteek, Finnish apteeki) 'pharmacy'.

The matter one must remember is that Low Saxon underwent general
apocope, which would likely have culled a lot of unstressed vowels in
such words if it also applied word-internally (which I suspect might
be the case). To really tell what happened in the case of Low Saxon
one would have to look at Middle Low Saxon, as that predated the
general apocope which occurred therein. Of course, in the English case
it is clear that the Early New English apocope only occured
morpheme-finally, and furthermore the development of a lot of the
final schwas in New English dialects today reflects extensive vowel
reduction postdating said apocope.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks again, Travis, for these interesting and important bits of
information. The Kahuna (http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) has
begun to pay attention.

Low Saxon apocope is morpheme-final. There are two interesting things about
it:

   1. While it did (or does?) apply in most North Saxon dialects (which are
   the ones that tend to dominate the presence of the language), it did not
   apply in a good number of others, especially in Westphalian and Eastphalian
   ones and North Saxon and Eastern dialects that border them. So you can still
   analyze living varieties that have no apocope.

   2. I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of
   lengthening as a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many younger
   people who rely much on writing, most of which does not indicate it. In
   other words, this feature, along with distinction between diphthongs and
   long monophthongs, is in the process of being lost in great part because of
   poor spelling. Apocope causes lengthening of the preceding syllable, which
   in cases of long monophthongs leads to extra- or super-long monophthongs
   (referred to as *Schleifton* "drawl tone" in German). What's particularly
   interesting here is that final devoicing (which otherwise applies
   consistently) is starved in the case of super-length. In other words, it
   looks as though apocope applies after devoicing. In dialects with
   intervocalic d-deletion, /d/ may then be deleted (which seems to have
   happened in the case of Dutch *luyde* > *lui* 'people'), and in a few
   dialects this happens to /g/ as well. Examples:

   Monophthongs:*
   hase *[?h??ze] ~> *haas'* [h???z] (not *[h??s]) 'hare'
   (*haar* [h???] 'hair' >) *hare* [h??re] -> *haar'* [h????] 'hairs'
   *stede* [?ste?(d)e] ~> *steed'* [ste??(d)] (not *[ste?t]) 'stead',
   'place', 'spot'
   *dele* [?de?le] ~> *deel'* [de??l] (not *[de?l]) 'floor', 'hallway',
   'stage'
   *luyde* [ly?(d)e] ~> *luyd'* [?ly??(d)] (not *[ly?t]) 'people'
   (*bruud* 'bride' [bru?t] >) *bruyde* [?bry?(d)e] ~> *bruyd'* [bry??(d)]
   (not *[bry?t]) 'brides'
   (*dag* [dax] 'day' >) *dage* [?d???e] ~> *daag'* [d????] (not *[d??x])
   'days'
   *mage* [?m???e] ~> *maag'* [m????] (not *[m??x]) 'stomach'
   (*weg* [v??] 'way' >) *wege* [?ve??e] ~ *weeg'* [ve???] (not *[ve??])
   'ways'
   (*schaap* [???p] 'sheep' >) *schape* [????pe] ~> *schaap' *[????p] (not
   *[???p]) 'sheep' (pl.)
   *oge* [?o??e] ~> *oog'* [?o???] (not [?o?x] or [???x]) 'eye'
   (*schip* [??p] 'ship' >) *schippe* [???pe] ~> *scheep' *[?e??p] (not
   *[?e?p]) 'ships' ([??] > [e?])
   But:
   *stimme* [?st??me]* ~> stimm* [st??m] 'voice'
   *lippe* [?l?pe]* ~> lipp* [l?p] 'lip'
   *valle* [?fa?le]* ~> **vall* [?fa??] 'trap'
   (*pot* [p??t] 'pot' >) *p?tte* [?p??te] ~> *p?t* [p??t] 'pots'

   Diphthongs:
   (*leyge* [?l????e] ~ [?la???e] >) *leyg'* [l????] ~ [la???] ('low' >)
   'bad'
      (usually written *leeg* and mispronounced as [l???])
   (*droyge* [?dr????e] ~ [?dr????e] >) *droyg'* [dr????] ~ [dr????] 'dry'
      (usually written *dr**?**?**g* and mispronounced as [dr???] ~ [dr???])
   *louge *[?l????e] ~ [?la???e] > *loug' *[?l????] ~ [?la???] 'lye',
   'leach', 'solution'
      (usually written *Loog* and mispronounced as [lo?x] ~ [l??x])

Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;
e.g. *Dat huus is groot *[gro?t]* un hoog* [ho?x] 'The house/building is big
and tall', *dat grote *[gro?te]*, hoge *[?ho??e]* huus* 'the big, tall
house/building'.

Thanks for thinking about this!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  9 23:01:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:01:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (06) [E]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

>
>   1. I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of
>      lengthening as a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many
>      younger people who rely much on writing, most of which does not
>      indicate it. In other words, this feature, along with
>      distinction between diphthongs and long monophthongs, is in the
>      process of being lost in great part because of poor spelling.
>
>  Younger people relying too much on writing... Hm, this can only be aimed
against Wikipedia and the other online Low Saxon activities ;-) cause, I
don't think, that there are many young people relying on writing other than
those writing themselves. I don't think there are many young people who are
eager Low Saxon readers. At least not to that extent, that writing could
influence the language. Okay, perhaps people who try to learn the language
without any previous knowledge. But learning a language from scratch won't
work with any language. So, I say: Don't blame the spelling. The blame has
to go to the bad language transmission. Well, it too is unfair to blame the
older generation for not transmitting the language to their children, cause
I think, that they did, but we have to blame the whole society for creating
an atmosphere in which the younger weren't encouraged to imbibe the language
offered by the older generation.
This loss of language "subtleties" is a symptom of general language loss and
certainly not a symptom of suboptimal spelling.

> Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;
> e.g. /Dat huus is groot /[gro?t]/ un hoog/ [ho?x] 'The house/building is big
> and tall', /dat grote /[gro?te]/, hoge /[?ho??e]/ huus/ 'the big, tall
> house/building'.
>
>  Depends. East Frisian does have apocope for grammatical markers. I cite
from <http://www.bis.uni-oldenburg.de/bisverlag/hv1/9a2-fort.pdf>:

/Auf Borkum und bei den ?lteren Emdern sind die alten Adjektivendungen - im
Gegensatz
zu den ?brigen ostfriesischen Mundarten - teilweise erhalten. Man sagt de
grote
Kaap statt de grood' (d' bezeichnet das stimmhafte d im Auslaut vor
apokopiertem e)
Kaap; mien olde Mauder statt mien oael Mauder; dat braide Pad statt dat
braaid Pad;
de baide grote Klaasooms statt de baaid groot Klaasooms; en junge Fent; wie
binnen de
Groten, de Dummen, de Klauken, usw.

/Marcus Buck/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Marcus, you responded:

Younger people relying too much on writing... Hm, this can only be aimed
against Wikipedia and the other online Low Saxon activities ;-)

Why?! "Only"?! I grant you that the Wikipedia activities are pretty darn
important and impressive, and I really mean it and, as you know, support
them. But they aren't the center of my universe or the be-all of "Platt",
nor are the participants the only ones (young or old) that ignore
"subtleties" that I consider as subtle as distinguishing English "bear" and
"beer", "bed" and "bet", or "loan" and "lawn," for example.

I hear many people speak, both competent and learning speakers, and I read
lots of people's written works. This goes far beyond the Wikipedia.

To competent speakers differences such as between [?be?dn?] ~ [?b??dn?] 'to
pray', 'to request' and [?b???dn?] ~ [?ba??dn?] 'to offer' are as important
as is the difference between their German cognates *beten* and *bieten*.
When such speakers write to or for each other and omit the written
distinction they still make the difference when speaking. Omitting the
differences in reference material is an entirely different story.  In my
eyes it's the same as ignoring diacritic marks when writing Romance, Celtic
or Slavic languages -- not excusable. And yes, you guys ignoring such
"subtleties" is a gripe of mine, but it is only a part of a larger gripe,
and it doesn't mean that I poo-poo the overall effort you put forth with the
Wikipedia project.

Again, most competent native and near-native speakers still do make these
differences and better reference books do indicate them, at least the
difference between monophthongs and diphthongs. (Yes, even the much
poo-pooed New Sass!) So not only is there no excuse for ignoring them when
you are non-native speakers who should consider themselves learners, but as
writers and compilers of reference material ignoring these still existing
"subtleties" you miss an important opportunity and obligation. (If you
ignore the differences in your private writing is a different matter.)
Remember that many learners will take you at your word because you are
setting yourselves up as educators. And all you have to do is look up
questionable words and/or have them checked by people that do know the
differences. Dismissing them as old-fashioned, inconsequential subtleties,
as though they were dead and gone, and letting only non-native speakers
determine what is to be treated as a symptom of language loss is a cop-out
for the sake of convenience, a way of covering one's behind for
can't-be-bothered laziness. More importantly, it amounts to complicity in
linguistic deterioration. Reference material should present a living
language optimally, even if this requires additional work. Look for instance
at the Russian Wikipedia in which head words and phrases as well as foreign
names come with stress indication as well as with distinction between *?*and
* ?* even though this is never done in ordinary Russian texts, only in
textbooks for non-native speakers. If they can go that extra half mile, what
excuse is there in the case of a language in which a sizable number of
speakers and writers still do make the difference?

Yes, it is a gripe of mine, and tongue lashings will ensue when provoked.
(This is mostly because I think it is such a shame.) But it is by no means
directed only at the WikiPlatt team, for out there are plenty of textbooks
and dictionaries that are guilty of the same neglect. And yet again, apart
from this one (not insignificant) point I applaud you for your initiative,
effort and perseverance. And, Marcus, by now you ought to know that I am
also fully appreciative of the various things you do, not only as a member
of that team, and your willingness not to let disagreements kill
relationships.

Thanks for the note about the Emsland varieties! (You'd better not call them
"East Frisian"! I understand the old rivalry between the two areas is not
dead and gone.)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  9 23:17:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:17:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JUN.2008.161742.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (03) [E]

On 10/06/2008, at 3:28 AM, Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us> wrote:

Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]

I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
flags with open on them are common all over Texas.

Such red white and blueopen  flags used to be common in Britain as well.
Craziest use of the colours has to be at the time of Liz's coronation when a
Scottish butcher sold strings of
re white and blue sausages. Honestly !

Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane Australia

Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us

Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us

Robert Burns

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 14:13:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:13:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.10 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.071338.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]
>>
>> I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
>> flags with open on them are common all over Texas.
>>
>

A lot can be said about the significance of colors, which is partly rooted
in history, sometimes scientifically verifiable and once in a while plain
humbug. I happen to know for instance, that many (if not most) corporations
know very well which colors sell best in which countries. Yes, some cars
just can't be sold in country A if they're painted in color B (thinking of
mustard green cars which sell pretty well in France and Spain, but are
almost taboo in Belgium), male shoes that are almost always black in
Germany, certain brown suits that are hugely popular in Italy and nowhere
else etc. No doubt this has something to do with the amount and type of
light in each country (which can be very different), the colors of the
environment and simply how people look like.

Regarding the Dutch flag, I think it fits the country, especially the blue
and to a lesser degree the red band. There's a few hues of blue that one
gets to see very often in the Netherlands. Why? Maybe 'cause it matches
orange real well (color of Dutch royalty)...maybe because it goes well with
blond hair and blue eyes? Or does it stand for liberalism? Anyway, it's a
"cool" and "open" flag, the colors look fresh and clean...just like the
Dutch  are :-D . No sheer coincidence if you're asking me.

Same can be said about the Belgian (and German) flag: black, red and yellow.
Dark/closed (black) but yet warm (red) at the same time: strong contrast;
out of darkness, life is created.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 14:15:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:15:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.10 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.071554.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.09 (02) [E]

One important note is that there are significantly differing degrees
of assimilation with respect to ethnic Germans in the US. On one
extreme there are cases like Pennsylvania and Texas Germans, who are
relatively unassimilated all things considered. On the other extreme
there is probably the vast majority of ethnic Germans in the US, who
are practically completely assimilated for whom the only signs of
being ethnically German are their last names. In the middle you have
cases like much of Wisconsin, where the population is largely
assimilated, where the only signs of the language(s) they spoke before
English are substratum features in their English, but where there is
still the retention of a distinct identity rather than being
completely assimilated into Anglo-American society.

Here at least, though, said identity is no longer really a
specifically ethnic identity as it was for past generations but rather
a regional identity. Younger people here are not Germans, Poles,
Norwegians, Irish, Italians, or like anymore; rather they are
Wisconsinites. Yet at the same time, there is a consciousness of
Wisconsin being a distinct society within North America, with its own
history and origins separate from general Anglo-American society. And
while personal ethnicity has been significantly downplayed amongst the
younger parts of the population, there is still an awareness of where
people here in general came from and of outside cultural influences at
a societal level here. Probably the best analogy I can think of such
is that, culturally, Wisconsinites today are to Germans what
Afrikaners are to the Dutch; Afrikaners themselves are quite
culturally distinct from the Dutch, and are of varied ethnic origins
which are not exclusively Dutch at all, yet at the same time
culturally the Dutch still had a distinct influence upon them as a
whole. Likewise, the culture here is very distinct from German
culture, and the population here today is of rather mixed origin
(despite having a large ethnic German element), yet at the same time
German culture has had a special position with regard to overall
outside influence on the culture here.

As for speaking a range of different dialects, at least here that was
a major part of the downfall of German here. The matter is that the
people who immigrated here, even if they all spoke "German", often
spoke such a range of different dialects that it turned out that it
was often more convenient for them to speak English with each other
than their own dialects. Of course, it is a short step from there to
simply speaking English all the time, which greatly contributed to the
overall speed of the loss of German here despite the great size of the
overall ethnic German population here.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 14:58:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:58:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.10 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.075807.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Thanks again, Travis, for these interesting and important bits of
> information. The Kahuna (http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) has
> begun to pay attention.
>
> Low Saxon apocope is morpheme-final. There are two interesting things
about
> it:
>
> While it did (or does?) apply in most North Saxon dialects (which are the
> ones that tend to dominate the presence of the language), it did not apply
> in a good number of others, especially in Westphalian and Eastphalian ones
> and North Saxon and Eastern dialects that border them. So you can still
> analyze living varieties that have no apocope.
>
> I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of lengthening
as
> a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many younger people who rely
> much on writing, most of which does not indicate it. In other words, this
> feature, along with distinction between diphthongs and long monophthongs,
is
> in the process of being lost in great part because of poor spelling.
Apocope
> causes lengthening of the preceding syllable, which in cases of long
> monophthongs leads to extra- or super-long monophthongs (referred to as
> Schleifton "drawl tone" in German). What's particularly interesting here
is
> that final devoicing (which otherwise applies consistently) is starved in
> the case of super-length. In other words, it looks as though apocope
applies
> after devoicing. In dialects with intervocalic d-deletion, /d/ may then be
> deleted (which seems to have happened in the case of Dutch luyde > lui
> 'people'), and in a few dialects this happens to /g/ as well. Examples:
>
> Monophthongs:
> hase [?h??ze] ~> haas' [h???z] (not *[h??s]) 'hare'
> (haar [h???] 'hair' >) hare [h??re] -> haar' [h????] 'hairs'
> stede [?ste?(d)e] ~> steed' [ste??(d)] (not *[ste?t]) 'stead', 'place',
> 'spot'
> dele [?de?le] ~> deel' [de??l] (not *[de?l]) 'floor', 'hallway', 'stage'
> luyde [ly?(d)e] ~> luyd' [?ly??(d)] (not *[ly?t]) 'people'
> (bruud 'bride' [bru?t] >) bruyde [?bry?(d)e] ~> bruyd' [bry??(d)] (not
> *[bry?t]) 'brides'
> (dag [dax] 'day' >) dage [?d???e] ~> daag' [d????] (not *[d??x]) 'days'
> mage [?m???e] ~> maag' [m????] (not *[m??x]) 'stomach'
> (weg [v??] 'way' >) wege [?ve??e] ~ weeg' [ve???] (not *[ve??]) 'ways'
> (schaap [???p] 'sheep' >) schape [????pe] ~> schaap' [????p] (not *[???p])
> 'sheep' (pl.)
> oge [?o??e] ~> oog' [?o???] (not [?o?x] or [???x]) 'eye'
> (schip [??p] 'ship' >) schippe [???pe] ~> scheep' [?e??p] (not *[?e?p])
> 'ships' ([??] > [e?])
> But:
> stimme [?st??me] ~> stimm [st??m] 'voice'
> lippe [?l?pe] ~> lipp [l?p] 'lip'
> valle [?fa?le] ~> vall [?fa??] 'trap'
> (pot [p??t] 'pot' >) p?tte [?p??te] ~> p?t [p??t] 'pots'
>
> Diphthongs:
> (leyge [?l????e] ~ [?la???e] >) leyg' [l????] ~ [la???] ('low' >) 'bad'
>    (usually written leeg and mispronounced as [l???])
> (droyge [?dr????e] ~ [?dr????e] >) droyg' [dr????] ~ [dr????] 'dry'
>    (usually written dr??g and mispronounced as [dr???] ~ [dr???])
> louge [?l????e] ~ [?la???e] > loug' [?l????] ~ [?la???] 'lye', 'leach',
> 'solution'
>    (usually written Loog and mispronounced as [lo?x] ~ [l??x])
>
> Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;
> e.g. Dat huus is groot [gro?t] un hoog [ho?x] 'The house/building is big
and
> tall', dat grote [gro?te], hoge [?ho??e] huus 'the big, tall
> house/building'.

As for this, I cannot really speak for certain, particularly because I
do not know all the circumstances of Northern Low Saxon apocope, but I
would probably approach it from the following point of view:

If said apocope is still productive, then it is easy to analyze. In
that case I suspect it would reflect an underlyingly retained /e/ in
word-final positions, as the elision thereof would result in
compensatory lengthening while shielding in the final consonant and
reinforcing its voicing (through it phonemically falling
intervocalically, where voicing influences tend to be very strong
crosslinguistically).

If said apocope is no longer productive, then things are a bit
trickier. In that event one would likely have to have phonemic
overlong vowels in the final syllables of morphemes or have some kind
of special null vowel phoneme following such syllables, and in the
former case either some ad hoc rule where overlong vowels prevent
devoicing of consonants in their codas or treat practically all words
except for words so affected as having final devoicing underlyingly
being allomorphy. As for such allomorphy, the problem would then be
that it would be the rule and not the exception, contrary to how
allomorphy generally works, even though one could treat it in terms of
such being the default behavior of words in general.

Of course, the largest clue to such is how loans from languages
allowing words with word-final schwas and or voiced consonants are
handled. If loans originally ending in schwas undergo apocope, then
such is still productive and thus the first case applies. If loans
originally ending in voiced consonants do not undergo final devoicing,
then the case of having final devoicing implemented through allomorphy
applies. If neither apply, though, it would require further analysis
to determine whether such reflects final null vowel phoneme of some
sort, as ad hoc as that really seems or having a phonemic overlong
vowel whose presence synchronically suppresses final devoicing of its
syllable's coda.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot for that, Travis (also for the piece about Wisconsin identity).

Your take on Low Saxon apocope happens to be the same as mine.

Lately I am inclined to see Low Saxon apocope as still productive, resulting
in overlength as a matter of compensatory lengthening, at least in some
dialects. However, I also think that apocope is no longer productive in a
number of dialects and idiolects and that it is these that have dropped
compensatory lengthening.

The reason why I think apocope is still productive at least in some dialects
is precisely the one you mentioned: treatment of loanwords.

For example, these days people say and write *leertast* (*L**?**?rtast*)
[?le??tast] 'space bar' (< German *Leertaste*), *buyn'* (*B?hn*) [by?(?)n]
(< German *B?hne*) for '(theater) stage' (instead of native *speeldeel* (*
Sp??ld??l*)), and *juud'* (*Juud'*) [?u?(?)(d)] for 'Jew' (< German *Jude*)
replacing native *joyd'* (*J??d'*)). However, there are others that say and
write *leertaste* (*L**?**?rtaste*), *buyne* (*B?hne*) and *jude* (*Jude*)
respectively.

However, most speakers that apply compensatory lengthening do not know that
they are doing so, and they would not be able to explain it even if they
did. It thus goes by most adult learners, and it does not help that it is
not (consistently) indicated orthographically and so far has not been
described and taught in textbooks for ordinary folk. So, while by no means
dead and gone, it is going down the tubes because of inattention.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 15:02:34 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:02:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.10 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.080234.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (07) [E]

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (03) [E]

 On 10/06/2008, at 3:28 AM, Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
 wrote:

Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]
I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
flags with open on them are common all over Texas.

Such red white and blueopen  flags used to be common in Britain as well.
Craziest use of the colours has to be at the time of Liz's coronation when a
Scottish butcher sold strings of
re white and blue sausages. Honestly !

Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns


Also worth remembering that at the time of Dutch colonisation of N. America,
their flag was orange, white and blue, not red, white and blue. They
switched to red sometime toward the end of the 18th C. because with the dyes
of the time, red was more visible at sea than orange.  Watching Holland
trounce Italy 3-0 in the opening Euro 2008 match last night brings home how
much the old colour still resonates!

Paul

----------

From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.09 (07) [E]

>From wim verdoold

wkv at home.nl
Zwolle city
Netherlands

Hi!

Here is the wikipedia website about the flag of the Netherlands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Netherlands
it 's a long story so I won't copy it.

As a kid I was also told  the red stands for the blood spilled in 80  years
war of liberation against spain,.
The white for the tears, and the blue for the sea we fought on.

I hope this was any help..

Hartelijke groeten,

wim

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 18:17:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:17:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.10 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.111740.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 10 June 2008 - Volume 05
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.06 (04) [A]

Haai julle,

Theo,

Dit is bekend dat ou doringboomspesies baie lank vat om uit te brand, en
dalk suggereer die
"swart-doringhout" dat 'n meer weerbarstige kool gaan vorm, wat ure se hitte
en lig aan 'n vryer
kan verskaf. Sekere akasiaspesies se stamme word swart hoe ouer die bome
word.

'n Ander moontlikheid: Marais het vir lang tye in die Ooste gereis (volgens
JC Kannemeyer ?Geskiedenis van die Afrikaanse Literatuur), en my eerste
gedagte was dat kohl (waarmee o? omlyn word), gemaak word deur hout

wat swart as agterlaat, 'n beter keuse sou wees om 'n goeie kwaliteit kohl
mee te maak. Haar belangstelling om vryers te wil lok, is dus daarmee heen.

Ek sluit die gedig onder in.

Elsie

*Die Towenares ? Eugene Marais*

Wat word van die meisie wat altyd alleen bly?

Sy wag nie meer vir die kom van die jagters nie;

sy maak nie meer die vuur van swart-doringhout nie.

Die wind waai verby haar ore;

sy hoor nie meer die danslied nie;

die stem van die storie-verteller is dood.

G'neen roep haar van ver nie

om mooi woorde te praat.

Sy hoor net die stem van die wind alleen,

en die wind treur altyd

omdat hy alleen is.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 10 22:52:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:52:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Symbols" 2008.06.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JUN.2008.155222.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.10 (01) [E]

In message <57c981290806100713h13ba4cc9i7cf1be258c401c9f at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM> writes

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "History"
>
> Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.07 (06) [E]
>
> I doubt it has anything to do with the Dutch flag.  Red, white, and blue
> flags with open on them are common all over Texas.
>


My earlier comment that the choice of red white and blue stripes might be
preferred over say green white and orange stripes is that US-Americans
(don't know about Canadian-Americans or other kinds) sometimes have very
strong feelings about how/where their national flag is used.

I was once with someone who 'preferred not to look' at a little boy (?five
years old) who was wearing swimming trunks with the stars-and-stripes on
them. Most people outside the US would not have a problem with this use on
clothing.  Indeed, our national football strips sometimes mirror our
national flags.  But someone in the US who wanted to put up an 'open' flag
might think that putting up the stars-and-stripes with the word 'open' on it
was very inappropriate. The stripes and colours of the Netherlands flag
could, therefore, be a nod to the orthopraxy of flying the star-and-stripes
without actually 'dishonouring' the US flag.

Cheers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 16:35:52 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:35:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.093552.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

I am sure I am not the only one here that has noticed a good deal of
interest and knowledge in history among us. This has led me to think it
would be good to showcase some of this as long as it is relevant to the
Lowlands. So I am proposing another web series with historical information,
such as in article ranging from very brief blurbs to lengthy essays, also
including things like photographs, drawings, paintings, maps and music, with
or without accompanying text. Of interest would be for instance the
Hanseatic network topic we've talked about. Also, it would be nice to post
some interesting and relevant historical documents.

Some of this overlaps with works already posted in the other series. For
instance, there is Pat's article about wall anchors in the gallery (
http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/reynolds_muurankers.php). In the travel series
there are Andrys' article about St. Jacob (
http://lowlands-l.net/travels/stjabik.php), Jonny's about Hadeln (
http://lowlands-l.net/travels/hadeln.php), Arend's about the Priestless
Church (http://lowlands-l.net/travels/ballin-stadt.php) and mine about
Ballin-Stadt (http://lowlands-l.net/travels/ballin-stadt.php). Why, I can
even see Tom's article about Edinburgh (
http://lowlands-l.net/travels/edinburgh.php) showcased under "History", for
it describes a walk along the city's historical high points. I see nothing
wrong with double-posting these pieces, i.e. in posting them in the history
series as well if the creators agree with this. And, by the way, all of
these pages get a good number of visitors pretty much all the time. So don't
ever think they're disappearing in a black hole!

Furthermore, over the years there has been a good deal of interest in
Lowlands folklore: myths, tales, customs, taboos, songs, nursery rhymes and
so forth. It would be good to showcase some of this also, probably in brief
blurbs, songs and rhymes just by themselves or with brief introductions.

So I am talking about potentially two new series. Other series might
materialize later (such as a more scholarly linguistic one I can envisage).

I encourage you to think about this and to consider contributing to it. You
may do so in any language you wish (yes, Scandinavian, French, Italian,
Spanish, Portuguese, Estonian, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic or
whatever, too), though at least English summaries would be nice, which don't
have to be written by the original authors. Please bear in mind that you can
list any of these contributions as published works on your r?sum?s or
curricula vitae. Also bear in mind that, while you give us permission to
showcase your works, you remain the actual copyright owners.

Please suggest titles for the propose series.

   - History:
   - Folklore:

Lowlanders, please remember that, no matter how modest, such projects really
constitute a type of public service in that it creates educational resources
about our languages, cultures and places. This makes a real difference
especially among internationally lesser known ones. We are putting them on
the map by sharing them with people that previously knew little or nothing
about them, that may not even have known they existed.

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Our series so far:

   - http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/
   - http://lowlands-l.net/travels/
   - http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/
   - http://lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 17:51:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:51:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.105114.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.10 (03) [E]

The general apocope of schwa in most Low Saxon languages of Germany looks
special compared to the national Standard German, but in Standard Dutch
most schwas were long dropped, too.
The funny thing is that most Low Saxon languages in the Netherlands do not
drop schwa, so in that they look more like their neighbour's Standard
German, whereas LS in Germany looks more like the Standard language of
their Dutch comglots.

The superlength and voiced final stops you mention for Northern Low Saxon
in Germany do not occur in Dutch.

Dutch, same examples:
haas  [ha:s]
haar  [ha:r]
deel  [de:&#322;]
lui   [l?Y]
bruid [br?Yt]
maag  [ma:x]
oog   [o&#650;x]
laag  [la:x]
droog [dro&#650;x]
loog  [lo&#650;x]

Dutch Low Saxon:
(SAMPA prono)
haze  ["ha:z@]
haor  [hO:9]
deel  [de:l]
leu   [l2:]
broed [brut]
mage  ["ma:G@]
oge   ["o:G@]
leeg  [le:x]
dreuge["dr2:G@]
loog  [lo:x]

In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -
e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is

Ingmar

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Thanks again, Travis, for these interesting and important bits of
> information. The Kahuna (http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) has
> begun to pay attention.
>
> Low Saxon apocope is morpheme-final. There are two interesting things
about
> it:
>
> While it did (or does?) apply in most North Saxon dialects (which are the
> ones that tend to dominate the presence of the language), it did not
apply
> in a good number of others, especially in Westphalian and Eastphalian
ones
> and North Saxon and Eastern dialects that border them. So you can still
> analyze living varieties that have no apocope.
>
> I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of lengthening
as
> a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many younger people who rely
> much on writing, most of which does not indicate it. In other words, this
> feature, along with distinction between diphthongs and long monophthongs,
is
> in the process of being lost in great part because of poor spelling.
Apocope
> causes lengthening of the preceding syllable, which in cases of long
> monophthongs leads to extra- or super-long monophthongs (referred to as
> Schleifton "drawl tone" in German). What's particularly interesting here
is
> that final devoicing (which otherwise applies consistently) is starved in
> the case of super-length. In other words, it looks as though apocope
applies
> after devoicing. In dialects with intervocalic d-deletion, /d/ may then
be
> deleted (which seems to have happened in the case of Dutch luyde > lui
> 'people'), and in a few dialects this happens to /g/ as well. Examples:
>
> Monophthongs:
> hase [&#712;h&#594;&#720;ze] ~> haas' [h&#594;&#720;&#721;z] (not
*[h&#594;&#720;s]) 'hare'
> (haar [h&#594;&#720;&#592;] 'hair' >) hare [h&#594;&#720;re] -> haar'
[h&#594;&#720;&#721;&#592;] 'hairs'
> stede [&#712;ste&#720;(d)e] ~> steed' [ste&#720;&#721;(d)] (not
*[ste&#720;t]) 'stead', 'place',
> 'spot'
> dele [&#712;de&#720;le] ~> deel' [de&#720;&#721;l] (not *[de&#720;l])
'floor', 'hallway', 'stage'
> luyde [ly&#720;(d)e] ~> luyd' [&#712;ly&#720;&#721;(d)] (not *[ly&#720;t])
'people'
> (bruud 'bride' [bru&#720;t] >) bruyde [&#712;bry&#720;(d)e] ~> bruyd'
[bry&#720;&#721;(d)] (not
> *[bry&#720;t]) 'brides'
> (dag [dax] 'day' >) dage [&#712;d&#594;&#720;&#611;e] ~> daag'
[d&#594;&#720;&#721;&#611;] (not *[d&#594;&#720;x]) 'days'
> mage [&#712;m&#594;&#720;&#611;e] ~> maag' [m&#594;&#720;&#721;&#611;]
(not *[m&#594;&#720;x]) 'stomach'
> (weg [v&#603;?] 'way' >) wege [&#712;ve&#720;&#611;e] ~ weeg'
[ve&#720;&#721;&#611;] (not *[ve&#720;?]) 'ways'
> (schaap [&#643;&#594;&#720;p] 'sheep' >) schape
[&#712;&#643;&#594;&#720;pe] ~> schaap' [&#643;&#594;&#720;&#721;p] (not
*[&#643;&#594;&#720;p])
> 'sheep' (pl.)
> oge [&#660;o&#720;&#611;e] ~> oog' [&#660;o&#720;&#721;&#611;] (not
[&#660;o&#720;x] or [&#660;&#596;&#650;x]) 'eye'
> (schip [&#643;&#618;p] 'ship' >) schippe [&#712;&#643;&#618;pe] ~> scheep'
[&#643;e&#720;&#721;p] (not *[&#643;e&#720;p])
> 'ships' ([&#618;&#720;] > [e&#720;])
> But:
> stimme [&#712;st&#618;&#721;me] ~> stimm [st&#618;&#721;m] 'voice'
> lippe [&#712;l&#618;pe] ~> lipp [l&#618;p] 'lip'
> valle [&#712;fa&#721;le] ~> vall [&#712;fa&#721;&#322;] 'trap'
> (pot [p&#688;&#596;t] 'pot' >) p?tte [&#712;p&#688;?te] ~> p?t [p&#688;?t]
'pots'
>
> Diphthongs:
> (leyge [&#712;l&#603;&#721;&#618;&
#669;e] ~ [&#712;la&#721;&#618;&#669;e] >) leyg' [l&#603;&#720;&#618;&#669;]
~ [la&#720;&#618;&#669;] ('low' >) 'bad'
>    (usually written leeg and mispronounced as [l&#603;&#618;?])
> (droyge [&#712;dr?&#721;&#618;&#669;e] ~
[&#712;dr&#596;&#721;&#618;&#669;e] >) droyg' [dr?&#720;&#618;&#669;] ~
[dr&#596;&#720;&#618;&#669;] 'dry'
>    (usually written dr??g and mispronounced as [dr?&#618;?] ~
[dr&#596;&#618;?])
> louge [&#712;l&#596;&#721;&#650;&#611;e] ~ [&#712;la&#721;&#650;&#611;e] >
loug' [&#712;l&#596;&#720;&#650;&#611;] ~ [&#712;la&#720;&#650;&#611;]
'lye', 'leach',
> 'solution'
>    (usually written Loog and mispronounced as [lo&#720;x] ~
[l&#596;&#650;x])
>
> Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;
> e.g. Dat huus is groot [gro&#720;t] un hoog [ho&#720;x] 'The
house/building is big
and
> tall', dat grote [gro&#720;te], hoge [&#712;ho&#720;&#611;e] huus 'the
big, tall
> house/building'.

As for this, I cannot really speak for certain, particularly because I
do not know all the circumstances of Northern Low Saxon apocope, but I
would probably approach it from the following point of view:

If said apocope is still productive, then it is easy to analyze. In
that case I suspect it would reflect an underlyingly retained /e/ in
word-final positions, as the elision thereof would result in
compensatory lengthening while shielding in the final consonant and
reinforcing its voicing (through it phonemically falling
intervocalically, where voicing influences tend to be very strong
crosslinguistically).

If said apocope is no longer productive, then things are a bit
trickier. In that event one would likely have to have phonemic
overlong vowels in the final syllables of morphemes or have some kind
of special null vowel phoneme following such syllables, and in the
former case either some ad hoc rule where overlong vowels prevent
devoicing of consonants in their codas or treat practically all words
except for words so affected as having final devoicing underlyingly
being allomorphy. As for such allomorphy, the problem would then be
that it would be the rule and not the exception, contrary to how
allomorphy generally works, even though one could treat it in terms of
such being the default behavior of words in general.

Of course, the largest clue to such is how loans from languages
allowing words with word-final schwas and or voiced consonants are
handled. If loans originally ending in schwas undergo apocope, then
such is still productive and thus the first case applies. If loans
originally ending in voiced consonants do not undergo final devoicing,
then the case of having final devoicing implemented through allomorphy
applies. If neither apply, though, it would require further analysis
to determine whether such reflects final null vowel phoneme of some
sort, as ad hoc as that really seems or having a phonemic overlong
vowel whose presence synchronically suppresses final devoicing of its
syllable's coda.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot for that, Travis (also for the piece about Wisconsin
identity).

Your take on Low Saxon apocope happens to be the same as mine.

Lately I am inclined to see Low Saxon apocope as still productive,
resulting
in overlength as a matter of compensatory lengthening, at least in some
dialects. However, I also think that apocope is no longer productive in a
number of dialects and idiolects and that it is these that have dropped
compensatory lengthening.

The reason why I think apocope is still productive at least in some
dialects
is precisely the one you mentioned: treatment of loanwords.

For example, these days people say and write *leertast*
(*L**&#281;**&#281;rtast*)
[&#712;le&#720;&#605;tast] 'space bar' (< German *Leertaste*), *buyn'*
(*B?hn*) [by&#720;(&#721;)n]
(< German *B?hne*) for '(theater) stage' (instead of native *speeldeel* (*
Sp&#281;&#281;ld&#281;&#281;l*)), and *juud'* (*Juud'*)
[&#607;u&#720;(&#721;)(d)] for 'Jew' (< German *Jude*)
replacing native *joyd'* (*J??d'*)). However, there are others that say and
write *leertaste* (*L**&#281;**&#281;rtaste*), *buyne* (*B?hne*) and *jude*
(*Jude*)
respectively.

However, most speakers that apply compensatory lengthening do not know that
they are doing so, and they would not be able to explain it even if they
did. It thus goes by most adult learners, and it does not help that it is
not (consistently) indicated orthographically and so far has not been
described and taught in textbooks for ordinary folk. So, while by no means
dead and gone, it is going down the tubes because of inattention.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar,

My examples are limited to those North Saxon varieties that do have apocope.
Even within this group there are those that do not have it, especially those
at the geographic periphery. Most varieties of the Eastphalian and
Westphalian groups do not have apocope, the latter and the southwestern
North Saxon varieties bordering on those of most Low Saxon varieties of the
Netherlands, having been on a continuum with them.

This is quite consistent with what you wrote:

In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -
e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online interface.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 19:19:57 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:19:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.121957.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (02) [E]

"The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online interface."

So now it's my fault ?! For as long as I know, I've read and answered LLL
messages from the Archives, if that's what you mean, because I don't want
my mailbox to be filled with hundreds of emails everyday... from this and
other groups. And I'm not interested in all subjects either, so now I can
pick them.

As you mention Westphalian and Eastphalian, not having apocope, we come
back to "Language Varieties" of a couple of days ago, when I stated we
might rather speak of Low Saxon languages than of A Low Saxon langage.

Both "Phalians" could be seen (together) as such a LS language, different
from e.g. the Northern Low Saxon language, consisting of the dialects of
Hamburg, Bremen, Schleswig Holstein, Ost-Friesland etc. etc.

In the Netherlands, the Achterhoek (=East Gelderland) and Twente (=East
Overyssel) LS dialects, together with Germany's Westm?nsterland and
Bentheim dialects, which I call "Hamaland LS"  can be seen as a transition
between the Phalian LS language and the dialects of the West Dutch Low
Saxon language of the Veluwe, Salland (= West Overyssel), South East
Drenthe and Stellingwarvian (S.E. Friesland). But one could also state
that this latter Western group is the transition to real Dutch dialects
already, because of the many features shared with Dutch such as oe [u:]
for oo [o:]/ ou [OU] in boek, ie [i:] for ee [e:], ei [EI] in niet, uu
[y:] for eu [2:] / ui [9Y] in gruun, uu [y] for oe [u] in uut, the lack
of 'du', e- in edaon for daon (Dutch gedaan) etc, verb order: dat ik bin
egaon for dat ik gaon bin. Something typically Franconian is "ou", "oe"
instead of "jou", "joe" you.

Central and South East Drenthe LS dialects (NL) can be seen as
transitional to yet another Low Saxon language, that of Groningen and
North Drenthe, to which the East Frisian dialects seem to belong as well.

Ingmar
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar,

My examples are limited to those North Saxon varieties that do have
apocope.
Even within this group there are those that do not have it, especially
those
at the geographic periphery. Most varieties of the Eastphalian and
Westphalian groups do not have apocope, the latter and the southwestern
North Saxon varieties bordering on those of most Low Saxon varieties of the
Netherlands, having been on a continuum with them.

This is quite consistent with what you wrote:

In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -
e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online
interface.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar:

So now it's my fault ?!

Did I say that? I think not. I was just pointing out to you and others
what's happening, that the archive submission interface has that drawback
when it comes to "special" characters.

The same applies to mail from accounts that process messages in HTML mode
with colors and various other bells and whistles.

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 20:36:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:36:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.133619.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2008 - Volume 03
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (02) [E]

 "The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online interface."

 So now it's my fault ?! For as long as I know, I've read and answered LLL
 messages from the Archives, if that's what you mean, because I don't want
 my mailbox to be filled with hundreds of emails everyday... from this and
 other groups. And I'm not interested in all subjects either, so now I can
 pick them.

 As you mention Westphalian and Eastphalian, not having apocope, we come
 back to "Language Varieties" of a couple of days ago, when I stated we
 might rather speak of Low Saxon languages than of A Low Saxon langage.

 Both "Phalians" could be seen (together) as such a LS language, different
 from e.g. the Northern Low Saxon language, consisting of the dialects of
 Hamburg, Bremen, Schleswig Holstein, Ost-Friesland etc. etc.

 In the Netherlands, the Achterhoek (=East Gelderland) and Twente (=East
 Overyssel) LS dialects, together with Germany's Westm?nsterland and
 Bentheim dialects, which I call "Hamaland LS"  can be seen as a transition
 between the Phalian LS language and the dialects of the West Dutch Low
 Saxon language of the Veluwe, Salland (= West Overyssel), South East
 Drenthe and Stellingwarvian (S.E. Friesland). But one could also state
 that this latter Western group is the transition to real Dutch dialects
 already, because of the many features shared with Dutch such as oe [u:]
 for oo [o:]/ ou [OU] in boek, ie [i:] for ee [e:], ei [EI] in niet, uu
 [y:] for eu [2:] / ui [9Y] in gruun, uu [y] for oe [u] in uut, the lack
 of 'du', e- in edaon for daon (Dutch gedaan) etc, verb order: dat ik bin
 egaon for dat ik gaon bin. Something typically Franconian is "ou", "oe"
 instead of "jou", "joe" you.

 Central and South East Drenthe LS dialects (NL) can be seen as
 transitional to yet another Low Saxon language, that of Groningen and
 North Drenthe, to which the East Frisian dialects seem to belong as well.

 Ingmar
 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

 Ingmar,

 My examples are limited to those North Saxon varieties that do have
 apocope.
 Even within this group there are those that do not have it, especially
 those
 at the geographic periphery. Most varieties of the Eastphalian and
 Westphalian groups do not have apocope, the latter and the southwestern
 North Saxon varieties bordering on those of most Low Saxon varieties of the
 Netherlands, having been on a continuum with them.

 This is quite consistent with what you wrote:

 In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -
 e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is

 Regards,
 Reinhard/Ron

 P.S.: The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online
 interface.

----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Ingmar:

 So now it's my fault ?!

Did I say that? I think not. I was just pointing out to you and others
what's happening, that the archive submission interface has that drawback
when it comes to "special" characters.

The same applies to mail from accounts that process messages in HTML mode
with colors and various other bells and whistles.

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 20:43:03 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:43:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.11 (04) [A]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.134303.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.10 (05) [A/E]

 Beste Elsie en Theo:

Onderwerp: LL-L "Lexicon"

Ek kan my vererg dat ek nie die 'Eugene' Marais gesnap het nie, my keudigter
in Afrikaans.

Terloops, ek praat onder korreksie, maar is kohl nie 'n vorm van kopererts
nie? Daar is myne ontdek in Swaziland wat tientalle duisend jare gelede glo
bewerk is vir 'kohl', waar kopererts ontgin word. Die ertsoplossing is eens
in Egipte met gestook affineer, en in gelyke wyse toe die alkahol uit gebrou
uit. Om die rede het ons die woord alkahol uit die Arabies 'al kohl'.

Ek dink aan u stelling, Elsie, oor die snoesige, langdurige hitte van
swart-doringhout en die hoflikheid daarbyvorbonde. Vir seker is dit wat saak
maak, want is die stem van die storieverteller asook die danslied en die
versoek om haar te hoor nie saam met die jagterswederkoms (iedereen in
teendeel nie-towenaarlike verdrywe) heen nie?

Dankie vir die gedig en die ontdekking.

Die uwe,
Mark

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 20:48:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:48:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.11 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.134858.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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 ========================================================================
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]

>From Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote about setting up a history/folklore section

The group may be interested in the following which was posted on the
Linguanet forum and they may also like to make sure that the Low German
section is FULL to bursting!

Languages from the Cradle, Wiki space opened http:// <http:///>
lullabiesofeurope.wetpaint.com/

A brief update on the progress of the Languages from the Cradle Lingua
project. This project is collecting Lullabies in the original European
languages, with their translations and for families, schools and children
to use. Lullabies in multiple languages will be motivational resource to
introduce new languages into a family setting.

1.The first samples of our lullabies can now be found on the project
website at: http://www.lullabies-of-europe.org/
2. A Wiki space has now been launched, were subscribers can add lullabies
in all languages, with translations and information. http:// <http:///>
lullabiesofeurope.wetpaint.com/ called the, Languages from the Cradle
Education Project.

We invite you to contribute or use the resources.

If you have any questions or need help, please feel free to ask on the
Languages from the Cradle Wiki forum.

Thank you for your interest in our project and we look forward to your
contributions on our shared Wiki.

Dr. Figen Sat Yilmaz
Email: info at lullabies-of-europe.org
Project coordinator
Cukurova University, Adana, Turkey

PS It is EU Socrates supoprted project

love

Heather
----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]

Hi Ron, Good plans. I like the folklore cum mythology etc. etc. However, one
request: Please make the linguistics on a level that a non-professional can
understand without having to look up every other word. Bij voorbaat bedankt.
Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources
Thanks, "guys"! (Or should that be "dudes"?)

Jacqueline, the linguistics thing is barely on the radar screen at this
point. We'll have to discuss the format if it ever comes to that.

An alternative might be a "soft-core" article with a "hard-core" abstract
fofr the purpose of "respectability". ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 11 20:51:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:51:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JUN.2008.135107.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

 ========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 11 June 2008 - Volume 05
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]

>From Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote about setting up a history/folklore section

The group may be interested in the following which was posted on the
Linguanet forum and they may also like to make sure that the Low German
section is FULL to bursting!

Languages from the Cradle, Wiki space opened http:// <http:///>
lullabiesofeurope.wetpaint.com/

A brief update on the progress of the Languages from the Cradle Lingua
project. This project is collecting Lullabies in the original European
languages, with their translations and for families, schools and children
to use. Lullabies in multiple languages will be motivational resource to
introduce new languages into a family setting.

1.The first samples of our lullabies can now be found on the project
website at: http://www.lullabies-of-europe.org/
2. A Wiki space has now been launched, were subscribers can add lullabies
in all languages, with translations and information. http:// <http:///>
lullabiesofeurope.wetpaint.com/ called the, Languages from the Cradle
Education Project.

We invite you to contribute or use the resources.

If you have any questions or need help, please feel free to ask on the
Languages from the Cradle Wiki forum.

Thank you for your interest in our project and we look forward to your
contributions on our shared Wiki.

Dr. Figen Sat Yilmaz
Email: info at lullabies-of-europe.org
Project coordinator
Cukurova University, Adana, Turkey

PS It is EU Socrates supoprted project

love

Heather
----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.11 (01) [E]

Hi Ron, Good plans. I like the folklore cum mythology etc. etc. However, one
request: Please make the linguistics on a level that a non-professional can
understand without having to look up every other word. Bij voorbaat bedankt.
Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources
Thanks, "guys"! (Or should that be "dudes"?)

Jacqueline, the linguistics thing is barely on the radar screen at this
point. We'll have to discuss the format if it ever comes to that.

An alternative might be a "soft-core" article with a "hard-core" abstract
fofr the purpose of "respectability". ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 14:17:00 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:17:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.071700.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.11 (03) [E]

Hey, you forgot to insert my message in which I was reacting to yours
below by saying that I was just joking and of course know you didn't blame
me; instead you placed the same message again in which I'm "complaining",
but I want you to know it wasn't serious ;-)

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Ingmar:

 So now it's my fault ?!

Did I say that? I think not. I was just pointing out to you and others
what's happening, that the archive submission interface has that drawback
when it comes to "special" characters.

The same applies to mail from accounts that process messages in HTML mode
with colors and various other bells and whistles.

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar,

I didn't forget it. That submission of yours arrived after I sent off the
preceding bundle.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 15:58:52 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:58:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.085852.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Lowlanders,

A book that may interest some of us has just been published, dealing with
the global "expiration" of standard language.

http://www.nobelprijsvoordeliteratuur.nl/meulenhoff/result-titel.asp?ISBN=9789029082655

The author is Joop Van Der Horst, a Dutch professor in Louvain (B). He
compares our present-day era with the transition from the Middle Ages to
Renaissance, a period in which many standard languages were created. Right
now, he thinks, evolution is going the other way round: deconstruction. Ah
well...the cyclic view of history, eternal birth and death, it makes me
wonder how the new standard language in a century or two will look/sound
like.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 16:00:29 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:00:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.12 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.090029.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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 ========================================================================
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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.10 (02) [E]

Dear Travis and rest,


You mentioned:


>  In the middle you have
> cases like much of Wisconsin, where the population is largely
> assimilated, where the only signs of the language(s) they spoke before
> English are substratum features in their English, but where there is
> still the retention of a distinct identity rather than being
> completely assimilated into Anglo-American society.
>
When I went to work in Neenah WI as a physician in 1964, I had a patient
with a very definite European accent consult me. I asked him, "Where were
you born?"

He answered, "Denmark."

As I tried to compute his medical problem, unconsciously I was off on his
ethnicity. It definitely wasn't Danish. His was a German accent. Eureka!
(remember, still unconscious) He was born in Denmark, Wisconsin, where most
people still spoke German.

QED

Jorge Potter

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 15:56:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:56:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.085635.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Dear Lowlanders,

(My friend Jake, whom I address with Jakes, had better not find out about
this one, based on what I found out a few days ago.)

My basic question is if and where the word "jakes" for 'privy', 'toilet', is
still in use in English.

The etymology of this word is uncertain but is generally believed to go back
to the French name Jacques (Jacob). I suppose it arose from some type of
jargon, just as "john" did in American English and *Tante Meier* ("Auntie
Meier") in Northern Germany's Missingsch varieties (later adopted by casual
Northern German). Maybe these developed from taboo replacements like this:
"Where are you going?" "To visit Jacques/John/Auntie Meier" (as in American
English "to see a man about a horse").

"Jakes" (looking like a plural form but treated as a singular form, hence
strengthening the "Jacques" hypothesis) was apparently much in use in Early
Modern English. In fact, it and its occasional alternative spelling "jacks"
are involved in one of the various clues we get about pronunciation of
Southern English during 16th century. As a matter of word play, an
alternative to "jakes" was "ajax" during the Elizabethan era. From poetic
meter we can tell that the name Ajax (then usually spelled "Aiax") was not
pronounced [??????ks] or [??????ks] as it is today but had main stress on
the final syllable: something like *[?a????ks]. This then sounded like "a
jakes".

"Your Lion that holds his Pollax sitting on a close stoole, will be giuen to
Aiax."
                                                             William
Shakespeare, *Troilus & Cressida*, 1588

So the clue is that the /a/ in written "aCe" was pronounced [??], as it is
in some northern dialects of England (Northeastern, Lancashire?) I seem to
be not the only one that believes that, despite occasional spelling
confusion, the "a" in spelled "aCe" was pronounced longer than the "a" in
spelled "aC" (as in "jake" vs. "jack"). This jives with the fact that only
the longer vowel later turned into a diphthong, a rising diphthong ([??]) in
most dialects and an even ([???]) falling ([???], [?a?]) diphthong in some
dialects such as Irish and West Indian ones. I hear slightly falling
diphthongs in some "authentically" pronounced literary lines.

Hear some of Shakespeare's lines of reconstructed pronunciation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today4_shakespeare_20050719.ram
http://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/media/mp3/reasons.html
http://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/media/mp3/cassius.html

So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [????kspe??] at the time
(cf. modern [????ksp??], [????kspi?], [??e?ksp??], [????ksp??], etc.).

Many Canadian speakers have monophthong [e?] as an equivalent of the said
sound (thus saying [??e?ksp??], I guess). On the US side, too, many speakers
[e?] or [??] in names like "Australia".

As you can tell, I'm fascinated by phonological/phonetic reconstruction. Any
relevant information and idea (not only about English) would be welcome.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 18:53:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:53:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.12 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.115310.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" [A]

Haai julle,

Mark, dis 'n plesier. Die Towenares was nie in my Groot Verseboek nie maar
Google weet alles.
Dit was vir my ook 'n ontdekking en dankie aan Theo vir die vraagje. Ek dink
dat Marais lank sy
tyd vooruit was en dat hy nie genoeg erkenning kry vir sy vreemd moderne
aanslag nie.
Ek het hier in my hand 'Mumtaz' se 'Kajal with almond oil for sensitive
eyes', en Wikipedia laat weet
die volgende;

*Kohl* is a mixture of soot <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soot> and other
ingredients used predominantly by Middle
Eastern<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East>,
North African <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa>, Sub-Saharan
African <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa>, and South
Asian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia>
women <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman>, and to a lesser extent
men<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man>,
to darken the eyelids <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyelid> and as
mascara<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mascara>for the
eyelashes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyelash>. Kohl {from
Arabic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language>???
ku?l) is also sometimes spelled *kol*, *kehal* (in the Arab
world<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world>),
or *kohal*, and is known as *surma* or *kajal* in South
Asia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia>.
It is the etymon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymon> of
"alcohol<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol>
."[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-DCECH-0>

Kohl has been worn traditionally as far back as the Bronze
Age<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age>(3500 B.C. onward). Kohl
was originally used as protection against
eye <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye> ailments. Darkening around the
eyelids also provided relief from the glare of the
sun<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun>.
Mothers would also apply kohl to their
infants<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant>'
eyes soon after birth <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth>. Some did this to
"strengthen the child's eyes," and others believed it could prevent the
child from being cursed by an "evil eye<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_eye>
".[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-hardy_cairo-1>

Groete,

Elsie

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2008.06.10 (05) [A/E]

Beste
Elsie en Theo:

Onderwerp: LL-L "Lexicon"

Ek kan my vererg dat ek nie die 'Eugene' Marais gesnap het nie, my keudigter
in Afrikaans.

Terloops, ek praat onder korreksie, maar is kohl nie 'n vorm van kopererts
nie? Daar is myne ontdek in Swaziland wat tientalle duisend jare gelede glo
bewerk is vir 'kohl', waar kopererts ontgin word. Die ertsoplossing is eens
in Egipte met gestook affineer, en in gelyke wyse toe die alkahol uit gebrou
uit. Om die rede het ons die woord alkahol uit die Arabies 'al kohl'.

Ek dink aan u stelling, Elsie, oor die snoesige, langdurige hitte van
swart-doringhout en die hoflikheid daarbyvorbonde. Vir seker is dit wat saak
maak, want is die stem van die storieverteller asook die danslied en die
versoek om haar te hoor nie saam met die jagterswederkoms (iedereen in
teendeel nie-towenaarlike verdrywe) heen nie?

Dankie vir die gedig en die ontdekking.

Die uwe,
Mark
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 12 20:28:10 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:28:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.12 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.132810.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.12 (04) [E]

> From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.06.10 (02) [E]
>
>> Dear Travis and rest,
>
> You mentioned:
>
>>  In the middle you have
>> cases like much of Wisconsin, where the population is largely
>> assimilated, where the only signs of the language(s) they spoke before
>> English are substratum features in their English, but where there is
>> still the retention of a distinct identity rather than being
>> completely assimilated into Anglo-American society.
>
> When I went to work in Neenah WI as a physician in 1964, I had a patient
> with a very definite European accent consult me. I asked him, "Where were
> you born?"
>
> He answered, "Denmark."
>
> As I tried to compute his medical problem, unconsciously I was off on his
> ethnicity. It definitely wasn't Danish. His was a German accent. Eureka!
> (remember, still unconscious) He was born in Denmark, Wisconsin, where
most
> people still spoke German.
>
> QED

One should remember here that the language loss which I described
occurred the very latest in rural northern Wisconsin, so it is not
surprising if there were people still around actively speaking German
in Denmark, WI in the 1960s. (As opposed to here in southeastern
Wisconsin, where German was already well on its way to local
extinction, with very many people in my grandparents' generation
already having become English-monolingual.) Mind you though that there
was also significant settlement by North Germanic-speakers in parts of
Wisconsin, particularly Norwegians, but also including Danes, Swedes,
and Icelanders, and considering the name of the town in question it is
not inconceivable that it had been at least originally settled by
North Germanic-speakers.

Also, accent does not indicate such in and of itself; for instance,
the English spoken here has phonetic signs of German influence even
today, such as limited final fortition in less GA-like idiolects and
the particular realization of rounded back vowels, despite German
being practically extinct here (aside from the occasional very old
person, of which there are fewer than even older people speaking
Polish). Hell, I myself have been told that I have a foreign accent,
and I am for all practical intents and purposes English-monolingual
(despite being able to read and write German when I have sufficient
access to a good dictionary).

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 00:10:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:10:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.12 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.171036.0700.>

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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E]

My basic question is if and where the word "jakes" for 'privy',

 'toilet', is still in use in English.

>
> The etymology of this word is uncertain but is generally believed to go
> back to the French name Jacques (Jacob).
>


This then sounded like "a jakes".

>
> "Your Lion that holds his Pollax sitting on a close stoole, will be giuen
> to Aiax."
>                                                             William
> Shakespeare, /Troilus & Cressida/, 1588
>
>
I wonder if it is related to "jacksey" meaning backside or fanny in US
English. Not sure whether that's on the right path :-)

Andrys

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 00:12:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:12:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JUN.2008.171247.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [????kspe??] at the time
> (cf. modern [????ksp??], [????kspi?], [??e?ksp??], [????ksp??], etc.).
>
> Many Canadian speakers have monophthong [e?] as an equivalent of the said
> sound (thus saying [??e?ksp??], I guess). On the US side, too, many
speakers
> [e?] or [??] in names like "Australia".

The above actually applies to a lot of North American English
dialects, including many Upper Midwestern and Californian dialects.
For instance, here "Shakespeare" would be [??e?ks?p????] or
[??e?ks?pi????] (X-SAMPA: ["Se?ks'p'I:R] or ["Se?ks'pi:R=:]). (Note
the vowel length is different from in the Canadian case, and at least
from one Canadian from Ontario I've talked to, they still have limited
preservation of historical English vowel length up there.)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 15:00:31 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:00:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.13 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.080031.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy and lucky Friday the 13th to all of you!

Our Andrys did it again! I just published his latest travel report at our
Travels site. Please take a look at it, but don't let the high quality of
Andrys' writing intimidate you! We won't hold anyone to that high standard.

http://www.lowlands-l.net/travels/ameland.php

Please keep thinking and preparing for two new series: one about history and
one about folklore.

Let me hasten to add that our Jakob Liek's Gallery series of essays about
the olden days in Sealand (Zeeland, http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/liek.php)
are another prime candidate for cross-posting in the new history series.

Please try to come up with ideas and things you can do.

Question number one is "What titles and subtitles should we use?"

As for titles, I have the following (first) suggestions for the history
series and wonder what you think.

   - Backward Glances
   - How We Got Here
   - The Way We Came
   - The Way Things Went
   - The Way Things Were
   - Water under the Bridge

I kind of like "Water under the Bridge". Not only is it idiomatic but it is
poetic as well ... and it has this bridge metaphor that can convey
connections as well. But does it sound too much like "Let's forget about
it"? What I intend to convey is that those are things of the past and can't
be changed now, also want to allude to the constant passing of events and to
healing of feelings and relationships over time, but I don't want it to
sound as though things of the past are irrelevant.

If we chose this one, it would be all the more important to clarify things
by way of a subtitle, perhaps something like "History of the Lowlands
worldwide".

What do you think? Any alternative suggestions?

Please bear in mind that neither of the proposed series, nor anything else
we are about, is about the European Lowlands alone. It is about all
Lowlands-connected places, communities, individuals, languages, cultures and
events anywhere in the world. This includes such things such as early Dutch
merchants' presence in Japan, or Sephardic refugees and their descendants in
the Netherlands and Northern Germany and their roles in Latin America and
the West Indies, Dutch influences on Indonesian cultures, early Dutch-Mohawk
connections, early international sailors' cultures and codes, culture and
social structure of early released (and stranded) convicts in Australia,
British influence on Maori culture, the evolution of Griqua and Bastert
communities ...

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 15:46:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:46:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.13 (02) [D/V]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.084642.0700.>

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.12 (07) [E]

Beste Lowlanders,

Bij ons kennen we - voor naar het toilet gaan - de uitdrukking:

no Jules goan (Welke Jules is niet gekend).

Ook hoort men:

no Kl?tte goan (Welke Colette is niet gekend).

Misschien is er een Lowlander die hier meer over weet?!

Anderzijds wordt ook gezegd: no bachtn goan (dit is: naar achteren gaan).

Bachtn is het West-Vlaams voor "achter". Ze weumt zie bachtn 't hoeksje = ze
woont achter (om) de hoek. Ze stoeg bachtn heur durtsje = ze stond achter
haar deurtje.
Het West-Vlaams achter betekent dan "langs'. Achter de stroate loopm = langs
straat lopen. Achter da varretsje = langs dat vaartje.

Het is gevormd zoals buiten uit "uit" en binnen uit "in", boven uit "over",
beneden uit "neder" enz. Een verrassende oude techniek om van een voorzetsel
een bijwoord te maken! Zo ook het Engels before, behind ...

Toetnoasteki,

Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Roland,

Bedankt.

Is et m?ogelik da "Jules" in vroegere tydn rym-code vo "kuul" was en
"Colette" vo "toilette"?

Toetnoasteki,

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 16:36:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:36:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.093638.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (08) [E]

This Middle English [?:] (SAMPA [{:] ) looks like an early phase in the
process from [a:] to [e:]. In the Netherlands, we see the same in several
dialects:

Standard Dutch:
maken [a:]  to make

Different Zeeland dialects:
from maeken [{:] through maeken [E:], to meken [e:]
But Zeeland Flemish has maoken [O:] like the rest of West Flemish

Stellingwerven Low Saxon (S.E. Friesland, West Drenthe, N.W. Overyssel):
maeken [E:]

Probably Dutch had two different sounds for what is long a [a:] today in
words like maken, water vs slapen, jaar, as many dialects still have.

In the Low Saxon speaking Eastern and Northern Netherlands:

dark ao [O:] in slapen, jaar => slaopen [slO:p-m], jaor [jO:@]
aa [A:] in maken, water      => maken [mA:k-N], water [PA:t-r]

the latter aa is pronounced 'lighter', more palatal than Dutch aa [a:].

In North Holland dialects, also called West Fries, but being Dutch:

ee [e:], [eI] or ei [EI] in jeer, sleipe
aa [a:] or [Q:] in maken, water

the latter aa is often pronounced somewhat 'darker' than Dutch aa.

Historically, both A sounds were different:
aa in slapen, gaan, staan, daar etc was already a long vowel, whereas
a in water, maken is a short that was lengthned in open syllables.

So that's for the dialects.
An interesting feature in modern times is the prono of Dutch long A in
different regions.

In Amsterdam, aa tends to be pronounced dark [Q:], similar to Afrikaans.
This happens in more towns in the area, and in all communities there:
Dutch, Black, Muslim, Asian etc.

In Groningen, speakers tend to pronounce every Dutch long aa palatally as
ae [{:]. This is interesting because in Groningen Low Saxon, both A sounds
are pronounced very dark as oa [o:]. In their dialects it is goan, woater
etc., but when speaking Standard Dutch it's gaen, waeter etc.!

At the opposite side of the country, e.g. in the Brabant city of Tilburg,
this ae for Dutch aa is also spreading rapidly. In the Brabant dialects,
Dutch aa is usually ao [O:].

Palatal ae has always seen as an Ingvaeonic or North Sea Germanic feature.

Ingmar

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [????kspe??] at the time
> (cf. modern [????ksp??], [????kspi?], [??e?ksp??], [????ksp??], etc.).
>
> Many Canadian speakers have monophthong [e?] as an equivalent of the said
> sound (thus saying [??e?ksp??], I guess). On the US side, too, many
speakers
> [e?] or [??] in names like "Australia".

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (08) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [????kspe??] at the time
(cf. modern [????ksp??], [????kspi?], [??e?ksp??], [????ksp??], etc.).

I suspect it still had its terminal "r", rather like Americans say it. They
still pronounce it through much of Southwest England, and they were doing so
in Kent and Sussex into the 20th C.

In the 1998 film "Shakespeare in Love" the American cast members (e.g.
Gwyneth Paltrow, Ben Afleck) spoke with very convincing modern English
accents; it would have been more authentic if the British and others had
used American accents!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, guys!

Ingmar, have you ever researched if there are any early differentiations
between what in modern varieties is the separation of [a:] and [?:]? It
might be worth our while to look at ancient forms in comparison with a short
list of examples.

Paul, it's great to "see" you again.

I suspect it still had its terminal "r", rather like Americans say it.

Yes, everyone seems to agree that rhoticism was the norm in the happening
places of Southern England in Shakespeare's time. Actually, when you take
all of the safe reconstructed features together (including the
characteristic [??]* for what is now [a?] as in "I" and "eye") you end up
with something less sounding like American English, a bit more like Irish
English, and very much like old-time Southwest English dialects on which
"pirate talk" is based. ("Aye, me hearrties!") I don't know how that would
have gone over had it been used in the movie. (Imagine Gwyneth Paltrow
talking "like a pirate"!)  I believe these are the old-time English dialects
of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, western Wiltshire and southern Gloucestershire
(Bristol). Right? These could simply be more conservative.

(* This [??] sound -- mid-shift between old [i:] and modern [a?] -- also
survived in many Scots and Scottish English varieties.)

I am in the middle of tweaking some phonetic detail of my Early Modern
English Wren translation. It should be up soon. Is anyone game to make a
recording? If not, I might end up taking a stab at it myself, or even in
addition. The more the merrier.

They still pronounce it through much of Southwest England, and they were
doing so in Kent and Sussex into the 20th C.

This is interesting with respect to Old Saxon, since we are talking about
one of England's "hard-core" Saxon areas. Non-rhoticism as in Southeastern
England, in Australia, in New Zealand and so forth is pretty much identical
with that of Northern Low Saxon.* However, perhaps they developed
independently from each other then. I had always wondered if the "seeds" of
it had crossed over to England with early Saxon colonization.

(* Non-rhoticism and voiceless stop aspiration are two important
phonological features Southern English dialects share with the Northern Low
Saxon heartland dialects, as opposed to rhoticism and non-aspiration in Low
Franconian, or rather Franconian in general.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 18:32:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:32:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.13 (04) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.13 (01) [E]

Ron asked:  I kind of like "Water under the Bridge"? But does it sound too
much like "Let's forget about it"?

I like it too.  It does have the connotation of "Let?s forget about it"
though.  But, I think with the subtitle you proposed, it would go over just
fine.
Mark Brooks
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 18:39:50 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:39:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.113950.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (03) [E]

That's hard to tell because there isn't very much written in Older Dutch,
but Western Dutch has the Frisian way, with EE from Old Germanic long ae
(as in English) and a darker lengthened A from Old Germanic short A in
open syllable, whereas the East has dark AO from O G long ae and a lighter
lengthened A, both in (most) Low Saxon and Low Franconian such as Brabant
and Limburg dialects.

My theory:
It's quite possible that in the beginning there was only a slight
difference between the A sounds, e.g. one region had [a:] and the other
[A:]. But Western [A:] had a tendency to become more palatal, into [{:],
especially with the rise of a new [A:] from lengthened short [A].
And [{:] can easily become [E:], [E:] to [e:], and [e:] to [I:] and in
Frisian (and English) even [i:].
North Holland leite = to let, sleipe = to sleep, deer = there, Zeeland
laete(n), slaepe(n), daer.

A whole chain reaction.
The Eastern [a:] had a tendency to become darker into [Q:], when short [a]
was lengthened to [a:]. And from [Q:] to [O:] is but a small step.
Maone ["mO:n@] = moon, daor [do:@] = there, slaopen ["slO:p-m] = to sleep
In English words like moon and spoon this development went even further.

There are still regions in the Netherlands where short A is pronounced
differently than in Standard Dutch. The city of Utrecht, which is
Standard Dutch speaking, is famous for its [A] instead of [a], so is the
Brabant city of Tilburg (which also has long ae [{:]) and the Brabant city
of Antwerp in Dutch (Flemish) speaking Belgium. To Standard Dutch ears,
this is the same prono as Standard English short A in cat.

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar, have you ever researched if there are any early differentiations
between what in modern varieties is the separation of [a:] and [?:]? It
might be worth our while to look at ancient forms in comparison with a
short list of examples.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Ingmar.

But many of the words *are* known in Old Low Franconian. Besides, you don't
need to rely on Dutch sources alone. You can go back farther and see if the
relevant cognates in West Germanic, Germanic or actual related languages
show anything telling. Besides, you said that there are such differences in
certain Low Saxon varieties of the Netherlands as well. So a look at Old
Saxon is warranted, as well as at Old Frisian and Old English.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 13 22:14:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:14:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JUN.2008.151442.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (03) [E]

Heh - actually, both changes occurred historically in English, with
the change from Old English [??] ([A:]) to Late Middle English [??]
([O:]), and with the change from Late Middle English [a?] ([a:]) to
Early New English [??] ([E:]).

> In Groningen, speakers tend to pronounce every Dutch long aa palatally as
> ae [{:]. This is interesting because in Groningen Low Saxon, both A sounds
> are pronounced very dark as oa [o:]. In their dialects it is goan, woater
> etc., but when speaking Standard Dutch it's gaen, waeter etc.!

That actually sounds like a sort of hypercorrection due to the
perceived difference between Groningen Low Saxon and Standard Dutch,
such that their Dutch pronunciation is exaggerated relative to that of
Groningen Low Saxon.

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Thanks, guys!
>
> Ingmar, have you ever researched if there are any early differentiations
> between what in modern varieties is the separation of [a:] and [?:]? It
> might be worth our while to look at ancient forms in comparison with a
short
> list of examples.
>
> Paul, it's great to "see" you again.
>
> I suspect it still had its terminal "r", rather like Americans say it.
>
> Yes, everyone seems to agree that rhoticism was the norm in the happening
> places of Southern England in Shakespeare's time. Actually, when you take
> all of the safe reconstructed features together (including the
> characteristic [??]* for what is now [a?] as in "I" and "eye") you end up
> with something less sounding like American English, a bit more like Irish
> English, and very much like old-time Southwest English dialects on which
> "pirate talk" is based. ("Aye, me hearrties!") I don't know how that would
> have gone over had it been used in the movie. (Imagine Gwyneth Paltrow
> talking "like a pirate"!)  I believe these are the old-time English
dialects
> of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, western Wiltshire and southern
Gloucestershire
> (Bristol). Right? These could simply be more conservative.
>
> (* This [??] sound -- mid-shift between old [i:] and modern [a?] -- also
> survived in many Scots and Scottish English varieties.)
>
> I am in the middle of tweaking some phonetic detail of my Early Modern
> English Wren translation. It should be up soon. Is anyone game to make a
> recording? If not, I might end up taking a stab at it myself, or even in
> addition. The more the merrier.
>
> They still pronounce it through much of Southwest England, and they were
> doing so in Kent and Sussex into the 20th C.
>
> This is interesting with respect to Old Saxon, since we are talking about
> one of England's "hard-core" Saxon areas. Non-rhoticism as in Southeastern
> England, in Australia, in New Zealand and so forth is pretty much
identical
> with that of Northern Low Saxon.* However, perhaps they developed
> independently from each other then. I had always wondered if the "seeds"
of
> it had crossed over to England with early Saxon colonization.
>
> (* Non-rhoticism and voiceless stop aspiration are two important
> phonological features Southern English dialects share with the Northern
Low
> Saxon heartland dialects, as opposed to rhoticism and non-aspiration in
Low
> Franconian, or rather Franconian in general.)

I would suspect that is largely coincidental, as non-rhoticism in
southern English English dialects actually developed quite late (in
the 1600s), and only spread to the majority of England during the 20th
century. I think it would be more likely that the presence of
non-rhoticism in Northern Low Saxon is likely more closely related to
the development of such in High German dialects, which non-rhoticism
being areal in nature in continental West Germanic, than to the
development of such in English English myself.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Travis,

The thoughts of both your points have crossed my mind also.

As for "non-rhoticism", it seems difficult to determine which came first:
Low Saxon or German. The phonology of Standard German is strongly influenced
by Low Saxon. (By this I don't mean historical shifts, folks.)  Southerners
perceive "real high" pronunciation as very Northern, "Prussian." As for
Southern German dialects, there are those that are rhotic and those that are
non-rhotic (just as there are those that aspirate and those that don't). I
think the non-rhotics have it, though.

My feeling is that you are right, though, that non-rhoticism developed
independently in Low Saxon and Southern English. The same probably applies
to great similarities of diphthongs (e.g. Lower Elbe realization of /ou/ to
[??] or [e?] where others have [o?], [??], [a?] etc.) and the characteristic
realization of /ar/ as [a?] (rather than [??]) shared with Australian, New
Zealand and some Southern England dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 14 16:43:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:43:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.14.JUN.2008.094311.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.13 (01) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

As for titles, I have the following (first) suggestions for the history
series and wonder what you think.

   - Backward Glances
      - How We Got Here
      - The Way We Came
      - The Way Things Went
      - The Way Things Were
      - Water under the Bridge

 They all have merit. Backwards and Forwards? (implies history and future
possibilities).

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Thanks a lot, Paul. It's nice of you to think about it.

I think the idea behind "Backwards and Forwards" has merit too.  But at
least to me it implies movement, thus "Going Backwards and Forwards" or
something like that.

My two favorites among the ones I myself proposed imply movement into the
future, at least they do so to me. To me, "Backward Glances" conjures up the
image of brief looks back while traveling forward. With an explanatory
subtitle at least, "Water under the Bridge" is not only a metaphor for the
constant passing of events and time and at the same time a metaphor for
sides trying to connect with each other, but to me it also implies forward
movement and the constant seeming repetitiveness of history, aside from the
ideas of unknowable origin and destiny. Too much of a Zen poet coming out
there?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 14 22:42:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 15:42:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.14 (02) [E]
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Phonolpgy

 Some time ago Ron had questions about "rolling" the uvular R.

Actually a rolling uvular R is quite common for Belgian Dutch speakers from
Brussels, Tongeren, ... (towns relatively close to the language border),
even Ghent (town with a French speaking bourgeoisie for a long time).

I found a book today with a brief instruction how to learn and how (not) to
pronounce both rR as commonly heard in Belgian Dutch (In the Netherlands
they even have a larger variety of "r"s).

I scanned:
- for the *apico-alveolar r*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/apal.jpg
- for the *uvular R*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uv.jpg
Ron, pse try exercise nr 30. I'm sure it will work.

What is listed as "fout" (error) may be heard incidentally as variant.

Both are scanned from:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: consonanten*", Acco,
Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4030-4, 280 pp.

The book is not very interesting for learning scientifically about
pronounciation. It is more a collection of "*long lists of words*" for each
phoneme in combination with other relevant and intentionally choosen
phonemes as *exercise material for patients of logopedists*.

There is a similar publication for vowels:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: vocalen en diftongen*",
Acco, Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4031-1, 123 pp.

Enjoy the gargling,
Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot, Roger!

I'll practice it. I can already do it but not dry. ;-)

Here is my translation:

   - Gargling with a little water, head tilted back
   - The same exercise without water, perhaps with a little saliva; vocal
   chords must vibrate
   - Gargling with head tilted back, saying R while bringing head back up
   - R between two vowels: aaRaa, eeRee ...
   - In combination with a back consonant, preferably k: kRaa, kRee ...
   - The gradually omitting the kRaa, kRaa, Raa ..
   - Practicing the rest of the possible combinations and positions

By the way, I think the clearest pronunciation of the trilled uvular r is
that of the recording for the Wren translation in Nieuwpoort West Flemish:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 17:04:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:04:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (01) [D/V]
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From: Jean-Luc Detilleux <jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.13 (02) [D/V]

Beste Roland en al onze beste Lowlanders,

Bij ons in Walloni? is de uitdrukking "aller chez Jules" ook bekend, en
zelfs in Frankrijk. Wat de oorsprong betreft, weet ik er niets van. Geen
spoor daarvan op Yahoo, doch.

Tot genoegen,

Jean-Luc Detilleux

Roland Desnerck wrote

<From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
<Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.12 (07) [E]
 <Beste Lowlanders,
<
<Bij ons kennen we - voor naar het toilet gaan - de uitdrukking:
<
<no Jules goan (Welke Jules is niet gekend).
<
<Ook hoort men:
<
<no Kl?tte goan (Welke Colette is niet gekend).
<
<Misschien is er een Lowlander die hier meer over weet?!
<
<Toetnoasteki,
<
<Roland Desnerck
<Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Roland,

Bedankt.

Is et m?ogelik da "Jules" in vroegere tydn rym-code vo "kuul" was en
"Colette" vo "toilette"?

Toetnoasteki,
Reinhard/Ron

                 ---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ik schr?ef:

Is et m?ogelik da "Jules" in vroegere tydn rym-code vo "kuul" was en
"Colette" vo "toilette"?

Of b?eter "kule" (= kuil)?

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 17:06:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:06:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Media" 2008.06.15 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.100637.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Media"

Beste Lowlanners,

today I got this newsletter:

'Nederlandstalige programma's niet ondertitelen'

Vlaams minister van Media Geert Bourgeois (N-VA) wil
dat de Vlaamse en Nederlandse omroepen stoppen met het
ondertitelen van elkaars programma's. Hij heeft dat
gezegd tijdens een bezoek aan de Belgisch-Nederlandse
Vereniging in Brussel. Bourgeois vreest dat Nederlanders
en Vlamingen elkaar steeds minder goed zullen begrijpen
en benadrukt dat nergens in de wereld programma's in
dezelfde taal ondertiteld worden.

'In de VS worden geen Britse programma's ondertiteld, ondanks
de taalverschillen', aldus Bourgeois. Volgens woordvoerder
Ben Weyts ergert de minister zich aan het zogenaamde
'Verkavelingsvlaams' en het 'Poldernederlands'. In Nederland
wordt onder meer de E?n-reeks 'Flikken' ondertiteld en in
Vlaanderen de politiereeks 'Baantjer'.

---------------------

Bron:
De Redactie, 9 juni 2008
http://www.deredactie.be

---------------------
**
** 'Woord van de dag'
** Een initiatief van de vakgroep Nederlands, FU Berlin
** Abonnement nemen/opzeggen en archief op:
** http://www.niederlandistik.fu-berlin.de/woordvandedag/
**

Have a nice Sunday!

Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 17:48:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:48:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (03) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.14 (02) [E]

In the Low Saxon speaking areas of the Netherlands, uvular pronunciation
of R has always been seen as an exception, a speech-defect, an affectation

But there is one interesting exception: the old Hansa towns along the
Yssel river, from North to South: Hasselt, Kampen, Zwolle, Hattum,
Zutphen, Doesburg pronounce their R-s uvularly, unlike the surrounding
country side. The same goes for the Low Franconian speaking Hansa cities
of Arnhem and Nymegen a bit further South.

Final R isn't usually pronounced in these areas (compare it to British
English and Northern German), but in the uvular towns, it is and it
effects the vowels into palatals:

?rm [{R at m] for arm ["ar at m]/[arm]/[a:m]/[a at m] Dutch arm = poor/arm, d??r
[d9:R] for daor [dO:@] Dutch daar = there, z?rg ["z9R at x] for zorg ["zQr at x]/
[zQrx]/["zQ at x] Dutch zorg = sorrow/care, k?rke ["k{R at k@] for karke
["kark@]/["ka:k@]/[ka at k@] Dutch kerk = church.

May this uvular R in Hansa towns be German influenced? And from what area
in Germany then?

Ingmar

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Phonolpgy

 Some time ago Ron had questions about "rolling" the uvular R.

Actually a rolling uvular R is quite common for Belgian Dutch speakers from
Brussels, Tongeren, ... (towns relatively close to the language border),
even Ghent (town with a French speaking bourgeoisie for a long time).

I found a book today with a brief instruction how to learn and how (not) to
pronounce both rR as commonly heard in Belgian Dutch (In the Netherlands
they even have a larger variety of "r"s).

I scanned:
- for the *apico-alveolar r*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/apal.jpg
- for the *uvular R*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uv.jpg
Ron, pse try exercise nr 30. I'm sure it will work.

What is listed as "fout" (error) may be heard incidentally as variant.

Both are scanned from:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: consonanten*", Acco,
Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4030-4, 280 pp.

The book is not very interesting for learning scientifically about
pronounciation. It is more a collection of "*long lists of words*" for each
phoneme in combination with other relevant and intentionally choosen
phonemes as *exercise material for patients of logopedists*.

There is a similar publication for vowels:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: vocalen en
diftongen*",
Acco, Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4031-1, 123 pp.

Enjoy the gargling,
Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot, Roger!

I'll practice it. I can already do it but not dry. ;-)

Here is my translation:

  - Gargling with a little water, head tilted back
  - The same exercise without water, perhaps with a little saliva; vocal
  chords must vibrate
  - Gargling with head tilted back, saying R while bringing head back up
  - R between two vowels: aaRaa, eeRee ...
  - In combination with a back consonant, preferably k: kRaa, kRee ...
  - The gradually omitting the kRaa, kRaa, Raa ..
  - Practicing the rest of the possible combinations and positions

By the way, I think the clearest pronunciation of the trilled uvular r is
that of the recording for the Wren translation in Nieuwpoort West Flemish:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (06) [E]

Hi Ron and All,

Regarding rhotic English, the modern Standard and the spread of London or
Estuary speech have muddied the waters somewhat. When you look at most
dialects nearly all southern forms (except London and Standard) sound a
medial "r", nearly always an American-style retroflex one. You'll still hear
it in the non-"Essexised" parts of East Anglia, and again from Oxfordshire
all the way across to Devon. Formerly it occurred in the counties south of
London too, Sussex and Kent, though Estuary has more or less wiped it out.

The change comes at the Midlands, and by Northern England it is pretty much
absent.  "Dark" will be something like "daak" as opposed to "daarrk" in
Devon. The far north, e.g Cumbria and NorthumberlandNorth, don't sound it.
Yet when you cross into Scotland, it comes back even stronger - but trilled
this time, not retroflex.

I believe there is a clue in place-names: Danish names occur throughout the
East Midlands and North, but fall off quite sharply into Scotland (though
not exactly in line with the relatively recent modern border).  Rhotic
English thus seems to occur in the more "Saxon" or "Angle" bits, and is lost
in the Scandinavian parts.  London and Standard confuse the picture because
the Standard is in fact mostly based on Mediaeval East Midlands forms.
That's what Chaucer, and ultimately the English Court used, because
the powerful money-men, the merchant class, used it as a lingua franca
bridging North and South.

So why would Scandinavians kill off a medial "r" when all modern
Scandinavian languages as far as I know, use it? My pure speculation is that
Danish and English had different medial "r"s, an neither really heard the
other one properly - a bit like English speakers thinking that Japanese use
"r" for "l". So in effect everyone said it "wrong" and it smeared itself
out.

Pure speculation as I say, but I believe the geography stacks up, even if
the linguistics doesn't!

Paul Finlow-Bates
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Ingmar and Paul!

Before I forget to mention it again ... I can pronounce the uvular /r/
(approximant) just fine, using it natively in German. My mother pronounced
it, even though her parents both used the apical /r/, her father as a
speaker of Mecklenburg Low Saxon and her mother as a speaker of Lower
Silesian German (where the apical /r/ is now disappearing) with an Upper
Sorbian substratum. My father could only use the apical /r/, which was
typical of people of his generation of that place, probably of most of
Northern Germany, irrespective of if they grew up speaking Low Saxon or not,
because Northern German still had a much stronger Low Saxon substratum then.

What I've been having some problems with is the *trilled* uvular /r/. You
can hear it not only in many Belgian Dutch varieties but also in Walloon,
Picard etc., and of course in the Francien varieties of French in the
?le-de-france.
You hear it very clearly for instance in Edit Piaf's songs. And, by the way,
it is also used in "Stage German".

Ingmar, I definitely don't think the uvular /r/ was spread by the Hanseatic
League. We can safely assume that all of Northern Germany used the apical
trill. I suspect that most of the spread of the uvular /r/ emanated from the
Rhine area and west of it. What I find very interesting is that a good
number of Eastern Yiddish dialects have the uvular /r/. This is surprising
considering that they are surrounded by East European languages that use the
apical /r/. Two possibilities spring to mind: (1) it goes back to the
Franco-Rhenish area in which Yiddish began, or (2) it began as a type of *
daytshmerizm*, a German-inspired affectation, in more recent times.

Paul, thanks for all the interesting information. You have an interesting
theory. You wrote:

So why would Scandinavians kill off a medial "r" when all modern
Scandinavian languages as far as I know, use it?

There is a uvular /r/ "island" -- with apparently no connection to the
aforementioned area -- encompassing Denmark and the Scanian part of Southern
Sweden, and with it comes non-rhoticism (usually schwa with or without
r-coloring for *-er* and *-r*). Due to Danish rule it spread to the Bergen
area of Norway, where, however, non-rhoticism is absent or rare. I don't kn
ow if this has any bearing on your theory.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 19:02:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:02:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.120251.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (01) [D/V]

Hallo,
In de streek van Waregem gebruikt men "met de hond naar de smidse gaan" (to
go with the dog to the smithery).......
Wat de betekenis daarvan is, ontgaat me volledig.

Denis Dujardin
Kortrijk.(WVL)

*Denis Dujardin*
*Omgevingen*
*www.denisdujardin.be*
*0475723159*

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

Hello, Denis!

It's great to hear from you again.

I don't think any real meaning is intended with phrases like the one you
mention (as also in American English "to see a man about a horse" or "to see
a man about a dog"). They are taboo phrase replacements, the taboo being
explicitness in "polite" company about going to the bathroom ... uh, toilet.
However, since everyone knows what is really meant (as also in phrases like
"to wash one's hand", 'to freshen up" and "to powder one's nose") people
have put comical spins on some of these phrases, and making them sound
nonsensical and thus absurd is part of the fun.

As for American English "to see a man about a horse" or "to see a man about
a dog," these began during the alcohol prohibition era and used to have a
different meaning: to visit a bootlegger in order to buy liquor. So these
mean "I will be absent for a while," and this was later transferred to the
meaning of "I am about to visit the bathroom."

All of these phrases belong to the large category of euphemisms. Euphemisms
can be single words or whole phrases. They are a type of "doublespeak."
These particular types belong to the narrower category of indirections, i.e.
indirect references to something that for some reason or other ought not be
said. Furthermore, they are of the jocular and nonsensical types. It's not
actually a case of hidden meaning, since people know what the meaning is.

We use such euphemistic phrases all the time, though we aren't always aware
of it. In English, there examples like these:

to drop the kids off at the pool = to visit the bathroom < toilet
to kick the bucket = to die
to pop one's clogs = to die

There are, however, jocular euphemistic phrases that are not nonsensical,
such as Dutch *van de verkeerde kant* ("from the wrong side") 'homosexual',
*naar het kleinste kamertje* ("to the smallest room") 'to the bathroom' (=
toilet), and *proletarisch winkelen* ("proletarian shopping") 'theft'; also
English:

little boy's/girl's (room) = bathroom (= toilet)
to play for the other team = to be homosexual
to play for both teams = to be bisexual
to score = to get to have sex
to have a bun in the oven = to be pregnant

As you can see, these are more explicit.

In American English, "to go to the bathroom" is used so commonly that it no
longer needs to refer to a trip or visit but can refer to the actual act of
excretion; such as in "I'm sick and tired of the neighbor's dog going to the
bathroom on our front lawn" or "Little Billie went to the bathroom in the
swimming pool."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 23:00:15 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:00:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.160015.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Hugo Zweep <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

Poor dog - In Australia one goes to see a man about a dog.

Hugo Zweep

----------

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

"To see a man about a horse" or "to see a man about a dog" (I'd never run
across the latter variant before now) may have been popularized during
Prohibition, but it is attested as early as 1866, in the play *Flying
Scud*by Dion Boucicault.

Kevin Caldwell
 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hello, Denis!

It's great to hear from you again.

I don't think any real meaning is intended with phrases like the one you
mention (as also in American English "to see a man about a horse" or "to see
a man about a dog"). They are taboo phrase replacements, the taboo being
explicitness in "polite" company about going to the bathroom ... uh, toilet.
However, since everyone knows what is really meant (as also in phrases like
"to wash one's hand", 'to freshen up" and "to powder one's nose") people
have put comical spins on some of these phrases, and making them sound
nonsensical and thus absurd is part of the fun.

As for American English "to see a man about a horse" or "to see a man about
a dog," these began during the alcohol prohibition era and used to have a
different meaning: to visit a bootlegger in order to buy liquor. So these
mean "I will be absent for a while," and this was later transferred to the
meaning of "I am about to visit the bathroom."

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 15 22:56:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:56:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JUN.2008.155644.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (03) [E]

Yes, Jews were the only Amsterdammers before WO II using the uvular r in
their local city Dutch/Hollandic accent. Modern Israeli Ivrith has it, and
I heard it even from Italian and Russian Jews as well. Moroccan and
Tunisian Jewish Arabic only has uvular r, which has been merged with
ghayn. So is it possible that uvular r is a kind of Jewish shibboleth,
which was already present in Biblical times in the Holy Land, and which
the Jews in the diaspora cultivated as a part of their identity?

Ingmar

Ingmar, I definitely don't think the uvular /r/ was spread by the Hanseatic
League. We can safely assume that all of Northern Germany used the apical
trill. I suspect that most of the spread of the uvular /r/ emanated from
the
Rhine area and west of it. What I find very interesting is that a good
number of Eastern Yiddish dialects have the uvular /r/. This is surprising
considering that they are surrounded by East European languages that use
the
apical /r/. Two possibilities spring to mind: (1) it goes back to the
Franco-Rhenish area in which Yiddish began, or (2) it began as a type of *
daytshmerizm*, a German-inspired affectation, in more recent times.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Ingmar,

I would be surprised if the spread of uvular /r/ were due to Jewish
transmission (at least in place other than the Netherlands). How would a
largely despised minority considered "foreigner" be able to do so?

Most Ashkenazi Jews in the Netherlands arrived relatively late and came from
German- and French-speaking parts, aside from East Europeans many of them
used uvular /r/ in Yiddish.

I believe that the leveling of /r/ and *ghayn* in North African Jewish
Arabic is due to French-inspired "affectation" in French colonies. (Most new
North African immigrants I met in Israel tried their best to pass as
French.) Jews of Egypt (once a British colony) do not use a uvular sound for
/r/.

The uvular articulation of /r/ in Modern Hebrew clearly belongs to strong
European adstrata.

The voiced uvular fricative is most definitely not associated with /r/ in
the Semitic languages. In pre-modern Hebrew and in Judeo-Aramaic it is the
pronunciation of "soft" *gimel* (?), in non-Jewish Aramaic with "soft" *
gamal* (?), in Arabic with *ghayn* (?), and in Maltese it doesn't seem to
exist.

I rather think that the spread of uvular /r/ in Europe emanated from French
via the French craze in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 16 01:57:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:57:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (07) [E]
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From: Paul Tatum <ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (05) [E]

Hello Ron et al,
you wrote:

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
>

 I believe that the leveling of /r/ and /ghayn/ in North African Jewish
> Arabic is due to French-inspired "affectation" in French colonies. (Most new
> North African immigrants I met in Israel tried their best to pass as
> French.) Jews of Egypt (once a British colony) do not use a uvular sound for
> /r/.
>

 I rather think that the spread of uvular /r/ in Europe emanated from French
> via the French craze in the 17th and 18th centuries.
>

I sometimes think that discussing the distribution of different
pronunciations of a single sound (I don't want to say 'phoneme', because a
sound is only a phoneme within a given context) across areas is problematic.
In this case, do your theories have to explain every area of uvular or
apical pronunciation as having its origins due to the influence of some
other area? How do you distinguish between pronunciation which is
'indiginous' from pronunciation which is 'borrowed'? Is the idea that a
craze for a culture should influence the speech of common people a little
far-fetched? I mean OK, a lot of English people say 'garage' with the French
voiced fricative /Z/ for the second [g], but that is a foreign phoneme, but
replacing /r/ with /R/ in native words across the board seems, well,
implausible. Is there any evidence this has ever happened in any language?

Paul Tatum.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Hi, Paul!

It's been a while.

All good points you raised I think.

Well, how about areal features then? A linguistic feature (which can be a
sound) spreads over a certain geographic area irrespective of boundaries
between languages and language families. Striking examples outside Europe
are the use of glottalized stop consonants from Alaska to Northern
California and the affricate /t?/ (the affricate equivalent of Welsh "ll")
occurring uninterruptedly in unrelated languages from Alaska to Tierra del
Fuego, and in southeastern Asia where unrelated languages share ingressive
labials and unreleased final stops.

Areal features spread through contacts and multilingualism, including
intermarriage.

Any feature can be preserved as a part of a substratum or it can be
introduced as a part of an adstratum, and this includes articulation.

An example of feature preservation is the case of tonality in peripheral
Bengali dialects with Tibeto-Burman substrata. Conversely, an example of
feature loss is the absence of tones in Mandarin and Tibetan varieties that
overlap with Altaic languages in Western China.

Acquisition of features very often involves prestige, and these days much of
that is being promoted by formal education and the mass media. People will
switch to a different sort of articulation of a phoneme if this is
considered desirable. How else would you explain the rapid spread of the
uvular /r/ in the Netherlands, especially in the Randstad area, the
"happenin' place"? How else would you explain that my mother and her
children belonged to the vanguard group using the uvular /r/ in their place
and social class? How else would you explain non-rhoticism replacing
rhoticism in Southern England, as explained by "the other Paul"?
Non-rhoticism became prestigious because it predominated among Southeastern
England's gentry and intelligentsia. In the USA, on the other land,
non-rhoticism in New England, New York and the Southeast is rapidly giving
way to rhoticism, because rhoticism is nationally predominant and
prestigious.

In 17th- and 18th-century Europe outside France, many members of the gentry
and would-be gentry were so much in love with French that many of switched
to French as a default medium with their like-minded peers. Some of them
even faked French accents when they spoke the actual languages of their
areas. The then prestigious "Saxon" German dialect of Meissen had or
acquired the uvular /r/ at the time. It caught on in other cities, such as
Leipzig and Dresden, also in Berlin, Prussia's power center in which the
(now extinct) local Southeastern Low Saxon dialects soon gave way to the
types of Missingsch (= Meissenisch) we now know as "Berlinerisch". For a
while, the rest of Northern Germany remained largely Low-Saxon-speaking in
rural and semi-rural areas as well as in lower urban classes. In most places
it was only the "better" social classes that were totally German-centered,
and this includes educators, especially those in tertiary education, in part
because academics were often hired over long distances, and German was the
natural lingua franca in German-centered learning. As I mentioned before,
pretty much all locally raised old people that I knew as a child in Hamburg
still used the apical /r/, even those that could no longer speak Low Saxon
or spoke it poorly. Those using the apical /r/ in Hamburg now are few and
far between. All right. I may seem old to some, but I ain't *that* old. So
we are talking about pretty rapid spread here.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:37:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.16 (01) [E]
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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (06) [E]

From: wim Verdoold
Zwolle city, netherlands

wkv at home.nl.

Or to ad to the confusion..

*Mihi ignosce. Cum homine de cane debeo congredi.*

Wim.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 16 14:43:25 2008
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:43:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (02) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (05) [E]

But I didn't say that the spread of uvular R was due to Jewish
transmission, only that the Jews were almost without exception uvular r
speakers in non uvular environment, such as the Pre War Netherlands,
arabic countries, Italia, Russia, Poland etc.
Isn't it a bit strange to suppose that e.g. Yiddish would be influenced
more by French pronunciation than other European languages at this point?
And supposing the fact that Maghribi Jews (Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia) also
used the uvular R is from French too?
So, why didn't the latter have [y] for [u] then, too, or [Z] for [dZ] in
Algeria, or nasal vowels?
Maybe the original Sephardic Jews from Portugal and Spain had an uvular R
too, still back from Palestine, when they went to the Maghreb. Present day
Portuguese has uvular R initially and when geminated, it almost sounds
like Spanish jota.
Btw I noticed that there is an interesting parallel between Spanish j =
[x] in Spain and [h] in Latin America, and Portuguese initial/double r [x]
in Portugal and [h] in Brasil.

Ingmar

Ingmar,

I would be surprised if the spread of uvular /r/ were due to Jewish
transmission (at least in place other than the Netherlands). How would a
largely despised minority considered "foreigner" be able to do so?

Most Ashkenazi Jews in the Netherlands arrived relatively late and came
from
German- and French-speaking parts, aside from East Europeans many of them
used uvular /r/ in Yiddish.

I believe that the leveling of /r/ and *ghayn* in North African Jewish
Arabic is due to French-inspired "affectation" in French colonies. (Most
new
North African immigrants I met in Israel tried their best to pass as
French.) Jews of Egypt (once a British colony) do not use a uvular sound
for
/r/.

The uvular articulation of /r/ in Modern Hebrew clearly belongs to strong
European adstrata.

The voiced uvular fricative is most definitely not associated with /r/ in
the Semitic languages. In pre-modern Hebrew and in Judeo-Aramaic it is the
pronunciation of "soft" *gimel* (?'), in non-Jewish Aramaic with "soft" *
gamal* (?"), in Arabic with *ghayn* (??), and in Maltese it doesn't seem to
exist.

I rather think that the spread of uvular /r/ in Europe emanated from French
via the French craze in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (07) [E]

On that note, the English dialect here in Milwaukee very commonly uses
a uvular approximant for /r/ (and sometimes a weak voiced uvular
fricative), except after coronals, where it uses a postalveolar
approximant more typical of North American English dialects. Of
course, this is not the addition of any new phonemes but rather the
wholesale replacement of the original NAE realization of /r/ in most
positions. For myself, a uvular approximant is the default rhotic
except after coronals, even though I am not sure if it is quite as
consistent amongst everyone here (as there are greatly varying levels
of General American influence here). As such is a very atypical
feature for an NAE dialect, but at the same time I have heard of the
use of uvular rhotics being encountered sporadically over a relatively
wide area of the US, which makes me think that it very likely is a
substratum feature (particularly considering the substrata present in
this area).

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (07) [E]

Ron wrote:
I rather think that the spread of uvular /r/ in Europe emanated from French
via the French craze in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Elsie can probably put me sraight, but Transvalers often used to tell me
that Cape Afrikaans has its uvular /r/ because "they like to think they're
French".

Paul Finlow-Bates
----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

> Well, how about areal features then? A linguistic feature (which can be a
> sound) spreads over a certain geographic area irrespective of boundaries
> between languages and language families. Striking examples outside Europe
> are the use of glottalized stop consonants from Alaska to Northern
> California and the affricate /t?/ (the affricate equivalent of Welsh "ll")
> occurring uninterruptedly in unrelated languages from Alaska to Tierra del
> Fuego, and in southeastern Asia where unrelated languages share ingressive
> labials and unreleased final stops.
>
> Areal features spread through contacts and multilingualism, including
> intermarriage.
>
> Any feature can be preserved as a part of a substratum or it can be
> introduced as a part of an adstratum, and this includes articulation.
>
> An example of feature preservation is the case of tonality in peripheral
> Bengali dialects with Tibeto-Burman substrata. Conversely, an example of
> feature loss is the absence of tones in Mandarin and Tibetan varieties that
> overlap with Altaic languages in Western China.
>
> Acquisition of features very often involves prestige, and these days much
> of that is being promoted by formal education and the mass media. People
> will switch to a different sort of articulation of a phoneme if this is
> considered desirable. How else would you explain the rapid spread of the
> uvular /r/ in the Netherlands, especially in the Randstad area, the
> "happenin' place"? How else would you explain that my mother and her
> children belonged to the vanguard group using the uvular /r/ in their place
> and social class? How else would you explain non-rhoticism replacing
> rhoticism in Southern England, as explained by "the other Paul"?
> Non-rhoticism became prestigious because it predominated among Southeastern
> England's gentry and intelligentsia. In the USA, on the other land,
> non-rhoticism in New England, New York and the Southeast is rapidly giving
> way to rhoticism, because rhoticism is nationally predominant and
> prestigious.
>
> In 17th- and 18th-century Europe outside France, many members of the gentry
> and would-be gentry were so much in love with French that many of switched
> to French as a default medium with their like-minded peers. Some of them
> even faked French accents when they spoke the actual languages of their
> areas. The then prestigious "Saxon" German dialect of Meissen had or
> acquired the uvular /r/ at the time. It caught on in other cities, such as
> Leipzig and Dresden, also in Berlin, Prussia's power center in which the
> (now extinct) local Southeastern Low Saxon dialects soon gave way to the
> types of Missingsch (= Meissenisch) we now know as "Berlinerisch". For a
> while, the rest of Northern Germany remained largely Low-Saxon-speaking in
> rural and semi-rural areas as well as in lower urban classes. In most places
> it was only the "better" social classes that were totally German-centered,
> and this includes educators, especially those in tertiary education, in part
> because academics were often hired over long distances, and German was the
> natural lingua franca in German-centered learning. As I mentioned before,
> pretty much all locally raised old people that I knew as a child in Hamburg
> still used the apical /r/, even those that could no longer speak Low Saxon
> or spoke it poorly. Those using the apical /r/ in Hamburg now are few and
> far between. All right. I may seem old to some, but I ain't /that/ old. So
> we are talking about pretty rapid spread here.
>

All with you on this one Ron. This is how the "machine" works indeed. Call
it "prestige", "social promotion", "fashion"...whatever...homo sapiens is a
primate, a copycat after all *s*. What, where and how he copies is
altogether another matter...but copy he will. Even in this day and age of
"free thinkers", "freedom"...and "free" software :-D . By the way, chaotic,
random and eccentric behavior gets copied just as well.
Not even such a bad thing in my opinion, copying is the best tribute you can
ever make to "the master" (if ever there is one)...in the light of eternity
that is.

Mind you, I know that (some) human beings can do more than this...but the
first stage is always "recognition" and "copying" I think. When that
blueprint has been made, you can try thinking out of the box...but first
there has to be a box, not the other way round :-D .

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: This is probably a very "continental" point of view.
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:14:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (03) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.14 (02) [E]

Ron translated the instructions for producing a trilled R:

   - Gargling with a little water, head tilted back
   - The same exercise without water, perhaps with a little saliva; vocal
   chords must vibrate
   - Gargling with head tilted back, saying R while bringing head back up
   - R between two vowels: aaRaa, eeRee ...
   - In combination with a back consonant, preferably k: kRaa, kRee ...
   - The gradually omitting the kRaa, kRaa, Raa ..
   - Practicing the rest of the possible combinations and positions

Okay, so this morning I read the above in my cube here at work and began
practicing.  I had my iPod playing so I didn't realize how loud I
"practiced."  After a few minutes of this, a co-worked several cubes away
stood up and said, "Are you okay? I thought you were calling for help!"  I
had especially focused on the "kRaa" item.  After I stopped laughing, I
explained that I was practicing my French R.  Evidently I sounded like I was
choking to death!  They already think I'm excentric, now I suppose this
proves it.

Mark Brooks
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Good for you, Mark! Embrace and cherish your eccentricity! It's the key to a
type of freedom known as *Narrenfreiheit* ("jester's liberty").

Enjoy!

Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 17 00:04:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:04:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (04) [E]
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (04) [E]

> From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.07 (01) [E]
>
> Hello, everyone.
>
> Fred van Brederode brought up an interesting point when he wrote:
>
>
> "... what everyone does is not necessarily the right thing.
>
> The pronunciation of kilometer as kilometer is completely analogous
> with the pronunciation of words like barometer and thermometer. The
> analogy may be the very reason for it. Most words ending on ?ometer
> however are instruments of measurement. For that reason one might
> rather think that a kilometer is an instrument for measuring kilo's,
> than a measure of distance.
> When indicating the distance of a thousand meters, a more proper
> pronunciation would probably be: kilometer, stressing the first
> syllable. We do the same thing with kilobytes when a thousand bytes
> are meant. Why change it when it comes to meters?

I consistently say "micrOmeter" for the engineering instrument for
measuring small widths, but would say "mIcrometre" if I were talking
about a millionth of a metre.

Similarly, I would say "kilOmetre" for a distance that you might
visualise in studying a map or figuring out how far we still have to
walk to reach a destination, but "kIlometres" for engineering
measurements where the distance is seen as being built up from metres.

The idea that the emphasis is different depending on whether the
qualifiers increase or decrease the units doesn't seem to me to work.
KIlograms, tEraflops etc.

However, I'd still say mIcroscope, tElescope, mIcrowave and so on, so
not much consistency with micrOmeter. Perhaps the pronunciation of
micrometer is such as to avoid confusion with micrometre?

I'm not sure what the significance of my way of spelling the word
sometimes as "meter" and sometimes as "metre" is! Is a metre the unit of
measurement and a meter a measuring device?

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
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Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.17 (01) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (04) [E]

Isn't "metre" in English just 100 cm, and "meter" a measuring device?

For us Dutch speakers it is different, we have one word "meter":

the verb "meten" means to measure, so a "meter" is a measurer, someone or
something that measures. Just like "kopen" is to buy, a "koper" is a
buyer, "zien" is to see, and a "ziener" is a seer.
A "meter" is a metre/meter, too, that is an unrelated word etymologically,
but the to sound just alike and in the perception of people, they are
closely related.

There's a third Dutch "meter" meaning godmother.

Ingmar

Sandy Fleming wrote:
I'm not sure what the significance of my way of spelling the word
sometimes as "meter" and sometimes as "metre" is! Is a metre the unit of
measurement and a meter a measuring device?

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.16 (04) [E]

Sandy asked:  "I'm not sure what the significance of my way of spelling the
wordsometimes as "meter" and sometimes as "metre" is! Is a metre the unit of
measurement and a meter a measuring device?"

I always attributed the difference to US and British spelling systems.  But,
perhaps, you have discerned something new.

Mark Brooks

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 18 19:11:30 2008
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:11:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (01) [E]
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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

Ron you wrote:
In American English, "to go to the bathroom" is used so commonly that it no
longer needs to refer to a trip or visit but can refer to the actual act of
excretion; such as in "I'm sick and tired of the neighbor's dog going to the
bathroom on our front lawn" or "Little Billie went to the bathroom in the
swimming pool."

 This brings back a story from my early twenties when I worked as a
counsellor in a US summer camp in Pennsylvania. We were in a division (it
was a large camp) for ages 6-12. During the evenings we took turns for OD
(on duty). It so happened that my turn came pretty soon. The section of camp
that I "OD-ed" consisted of several small wooden bunks, each one housing
about 12 boys. The OD had a seat at a table in front of one. The table was
conveniently situated under a lamppost so we could read.

All of a sudden there was a shouting coming from one of the bunks: "ODEE,
ODEE". I immediately got up, aware of my duty I entered the bunk. "What is
the matter?" I said. One of the boys answered out of the dark: "I need to go
to the bathroom". I had no idea what this actually meant, I felt rather
disturbed in my reading activities. So I said out of sincere astonishment:
"why is that, all you guys just had a shower?" Camp rule made it clear to
shower before going to bed. The other boys came to his assist: "please OD he
really needs to". The bathroom was outside the bunk, which was quite a
nuisance. Nevertheless I quickly figured out that it was best to let the boy
go, whatever he needed to go to the bathroom for.

It was until I told my American fellow counsellors about the incident that I
found out what "going to the bathroom" means for an American.

The camp I was in had many overseas counsellors, most of them from Britain.
For reasons of convenience I was soon enlisted by the British. I gratefully
joined them in laughing about the silly American accent and expressions. The
bathroom was one of them. I remember that we were astonished once again by
the word "restroom". Someone had read in a leaflet that long distance busses
in the US had small restrooms. What a great service, the bus company
provides us with a room where you can lay down on a long journey. Again the
misunderstanding did not last long. The astonishment stayed: Americans say
anything to avoid the word toilet.

Probably very old as well, but I noticed it only recently: "half bathroom"
in a real estate add. Yes anything but the t-word.
Groetjes,  Fred van Brederode

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks a lot, Fred.

There are lots and lots of such stories, especially about Americans being
directed to bathrooms without toilets or to rooms with daybeds or couches.

Actually, many US Americans do use the word "toilet," but with a different
meaning: the actual toilet "throne" inside the ... bathroom or "half
bathroom." The room itself is not called "toilet" by most Americans.
However, some people avoid "toilet" in this sense as well ans say "commode"
instead (e.g. There's a sink and a commode in the half bathroom").

The polite US American word for the room in which a toilet is found tends to
be "bathroom" if it is in a private home and "restroom" if it is a public
facility. In Canada I see and hear mostly "washroom" used. In old-fashioned,
posh American restrooms, such as in theaters, you still find anterooms with
couches and easy chairs for resting, at least in women's restrooms. So there
is a connection. Many of these even have things like shoe-polishing
machines, and some men's versions still have full-length mirrors next to
their exits, some of which have attached to them signs saying things like
"Gentlemen, for your convenience" or "Gentlemen, your attire" to give you a
last chance to "batten down the hatch," if you catch my meaning! So we are
talking about vestiges of Belle ?poque comfort here, not something to
summarize coarsely.

So, when US Americans and Canadians travel to other countries, signs saying
"toilets" or some recognizable cognates of it seem a bit crass or simply
strange because they associate with it not rooms but what is installed
there. But of course Canadians are far more exposed to non-American English
and thus don't miss a beat when they hear "toilets." They are also more
likely to switch to using the word "toilet" themselves once they arrive in
Britain for instance.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 18 22:06:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:06:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.18 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.18.JUN.2008.150659.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Projects

Dear Lowlanders,

Last week I wrote:

I am sure I am not the only one here that has noticed a good deal of
interest and knowledge in history among us. This has led me to think it
would be good to showcase some of this as long as it is relevant to the
Lowlands. So I am proposing another web series with historical information,
such as in article ranging from very brief blurbs to lengthy essays, also
including things like photographs, drawings, paintings, maps and music, with
or without accompanying text. Of interest would be for instance the
Hanseatic network topic we've talked about. Also, it would be nice to post
some interesting and relevant historical documents.

Later we discussed the scope and the title, and, as usual, I tried to
"enthuse" you into pitching in.

Let it not be said that I don't whip these things out quickly these days! *
Voil?!* The history site is ready and receptive:

http://lowlands-l.net/history/

So far it contains only one new article (Arthur's) among a few cross-posted
adaptations from previously published articles. I am still waiting for
permission to cross-post other articles. I know of one new article that is
definitely in the making.

Please consider sending us some goodies for this. It doesn't have to be
anything long or spectacular. As for suitable material, please read my
explanations and suggestions on the index page and on the page calling for
submissions:

http://lowlands-l.net/history/
http://lowlands-l.net/history/submission.php

You may send submissions (n any language), comments, suggestions and
corrections to me personally (sassisch at yahoo.com) under "History" or "Water
under The Bridge".

Also, please think about the other proposed web project and what you can do
for it: a presentation of all manner of Lowlands folklore (mythology,
legends, folktales, customs, taboos, rituals, folk wisdom, aphorisms, poems,
songs etc.). Again, no long epistles are required. A single paragraph, a
picture ... Fine! Again in any language.

And we need to come up with a title for it. Again I propose that we use a
combination of a catchy, intriguing main title and an explanatory subtitle.
My first suggestions:

*Kabouters, Ghost Ships, and Sinterklaas*
Folk traditions of the Lowlands
*Kabouters, Mad Meg, and Sinterklaas
*Folk traditions of the Lowlands

*Kabouters, Mad Meg, and Jan van Hunks' Soul
*Folk traditions of the Lowlands

*Klabautermann, Mad Meg, and Jan van Hunks' Soul
*Folk traditions of the Lowlands

*Goblins, Rip Van Winkle, and Jan van Hunks' Soul
*Folk traditions of the Lowlands

... or any other such combinations, as long as it has the right sound and
rhythm.

Mention of these (or other) examples of "typical" features of Lowlands
traditions are supposed to entice people in. (Should that be the derivative
"Santa Claus" instead of the original "Sinterklaas"?)

Kabouters are the Little Folk. "Mad Meg" is the equivalent of "Dulle Griet".
The Dutch pirate Jan van Hunks, whose soul the devil took on Tabletop
Mountain, provides a nice link to South Africa. The Klabautermann is a North
German goblins that haunts ships, oftentimes heralding the arrival of the
dreaded Flying Dutchman. Rip Van Winkle is a North American fiction figure
but alludes to Dutch colonial times, and it is connected with other such
traditions (e.g. the German Karl Katz, the Jewish ???? ????? Honi HaM'agel,
Eastern Asia's ?? L?nk?/Ranka, the Syriac Christian Seven Sleepers, and so
forth.

Are there any other title suggestions?

And happy Vesak to those of you to whom this means something!

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 18 22:10:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:10:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.18.JUN.2008.151041.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (01) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Fred wrote about euphenisms for "toilet/ lavatory" and it reminded me of a
sad story I read long ago.

One of the first ships to leave Singapore as the Japanese advanced, and
which was carrying women and children, was torpedoed and sunk. The adults
who survived gathered up as many children as possible and as they drifted to
shore tried to keep up their spirits. This story was related by an
Australian nurse who along with half a dozen children was clinging to a
large piece of wood. One little girl said to the nurse. "I want to go
upstairs" and the nurse  misunderstanding the meaning, explained that they
would soon be safely on shore and that they would able to go to sleep then.
" No" said the little girl, " I need to go upstairs" and the poor lamb kept
repeating her request. Eventually another  child explained that " She wants
to do a no. 1" At last the nurse understood and explained that as they were
in the water, it would be quite alright for her just to 'go' there and then.
But the poor child so trained in her habits wouldn't ( or couldn't) 'go'
until she had been helped into pulling her knickers down.

Sad such habits that we breed into our children.

Heather

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 18 22:59:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:59:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.18 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.18.JUN.2008.155954.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2008 - Volume 04
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (01) [E]

Americans also use the terms "men's room", "ladies' room", and, in schools,
"boys' room" and "girls' room".  Sometimes we call it the lavatory (which
technically is a place where you wash up, or even just a sink, but it
extends to the whole room).  Then there are slang terms like john, can, pot,
and head, or children's slang like potty and toity.  To me, a toilet is the
actual fixture (also called a commode), not the room it is in.

Ron, why are suddenly writing "US Americans"?  I think most people
understand "Americans" to refer to people from the United States of *America
*.

Kevin Caldwell
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Names

Hi, Kevin!

The short answer: too many complaints.

Most of these complaints come from Latin Americans, and some Canadians have
told me they dislike it also. The usual argument is that they are all
Americans.

Some complain about "United States" without "of America" as well. There is
another united states country: Mexico (*Estados Unidos Mexicanos, M?xihcatl
Tlacetil?lli Tlahtohc?y?tl*).

Many see this "name monopoly" as symptomatic of US American dominance,
"arrogance" and the rest of it.

Such voices of dissent are much more audible these days because of direct
global communication and electronic international gatherings like ours.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 14:11:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:11:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.19 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.071107.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.18 (04) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, I appreciate you writing 'US Americans'.

We have the same trend here in South Africa that the country and its people
are referred to as 'America' and 'Americans', which is rather myopic
and limiting.

Elsie

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 16:00:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:00:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.19 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.090036.0700.>

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From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

Dear Ron, Denis and the rest,

Ron wrote:


> All of these phrases belong to the large category of euphemisms. Euphemisms
> can be single words or whole phrases. They are a type of "doublespeak."
> These particular types belong to the narrower category of indirections, i.e.
> indirect references to something that for some reason or other ought not be
> said. Furthermore, they are of the jocular and nonsensical types. It's not
> actually a case of hidden meaning, since people know what the meaning is.


In the 1920's my father had a Chinese roommate, who was invited to dinner by
some very wealthy folks. Dad and other students gave him a quickie course on
American etiquette, such as "If they ask you if you wish to wash your hands,
it's an opportunity to relieve yourself." What they forgot to mention was
that Americans expected guests to be on time, never very early or late.

He arrived almost an hour early, to find the hostess in the midst of
preparations and the host not yet home from work, She dispatched him to
amuse himself in their extremely fancy, ornamental garden. When she called
him in and asked if he would like to "wash his hands," he replied, "Oh, no
thank you, madame, I already took care of that in the garden.

One evening in the 50s, with only a smattering of French, I found myself in
a Montreal home and had to relieve myself. When I asked for the "bain," a
big family discussion ensued, none of which was understood by me. Finally
they ushered me into a small room with a bathtub and a washbowl, only.

As ever,

Jorge Potter

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 16:28:43 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:28:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.092843.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Projects

Folks,

Yesterday I announced the start of our new history presentation (
http://lowlands-l.net/history/), and then I tried to come up with a fancy
title for the planned folklore presentation.

After a lengthy debate with myself (since no one else will debate with poor
little me) I decided that a less fancy title would be more appropriate. How
about the following?

*Things They Left Us*
Folk traditions of the Lowlands worldwide

I kind of like it, at least at the moment. It's nice and all-inclusive.

Any reactions or ideas?

By the way, with his permission I added Jonny's article about Hadeln and the
old Saxons to the history presentation.

I count on contributions to the new and old presentations.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 17:22:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:22:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.102251.0700.>

=========================================================================
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.19 (02) [E]

A couple more euphemisms for toilet:

facilities ? as in, "I need to use the facilities" or "Could you direct me
to your facilities?"

loo ? supposedly from French "lieu" (place), or possibly from "l'eau"
(water). This term isn't used that much by Americans. It can be used
humorously by saying that you need to "skip to the loo" (a pun on the song,
"Skip to My Lou").

We have a joke in my family about "rest areas" (roadside areas on major
highways with restrooms and, usually, picnic tables, dog walk areas, etc.).
Whenever we see a sign saying, "Rest Area, 1 Mile," the driver will ask,
"Does anyone need to rest their area?"

Kevin Caldwell

From: Jorge Potter <jorgepot at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.15 (04) [D/E]

Dear Ron, Denis and the rest,

Ron wrote:

All of these phrases belong to the large category of euphemisms. Euphemisms
can be single words or whole phrases. They are a type of "doublespeak."
These particular types belong to the narrower category of indirections, i.e.
indirect references to something that for some reason or other ought not be
said. Furthermore, they are of the jocular and nonsensical types. It's not
actually a case of hidden meaning, since people know what the meaning is.

 In the 1920's my father had a Chinese roommate, who was invited to dinner
by some very wealthy folks. Dad and other students gave him a quickie
course on American etiquette, such as "If they ask you if you wish to wash
your hands, it's an opportunity to relieve yourself." What they forgot to
mention was that Americans expected guests to be on time, never very early
or late.

He arrived almost an hour early, to find the hostess in the midst of
preparations and the host not yet home from work, She dispatched him to
amuse himself in their extremely fancy, ornamental garden. When she called
him in and asked if he would like to "wash his hands," he replied, "Oh, no
thank you, madame, I already took care of that in the garden.

One evening in the 50s, with only a smattering of French, I found myself in
a Montreal home and had to relieve myself. When I asked for the "bain," a
big family discussion ensued, none of which was understood by me. Finally
they ushered me into a small room with a bathtub and a washbowl, only.

As ever,

Jorge Potter
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 18:22:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:22:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.112212.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>  Subject: Projects
[...]
> After a lengthy debate with myself (since no one else will
> debate with poor
> little me) I decided that a less fancy title would be more
> appropriate. How
> about the following?
>
> *Things They Left Us*
> Folk traditions of the Lowlands worldwide

Hi,

Oh, little poor me, feeling forced to react to the great Kahuna:
The title should have a verb [preferably expressing activity] and a question
mark [?].
Don't be shy, Kahuna, you're on the right path.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Thanks, poor little Theo ... but I don't follow.

"Things They Left Us" is supposed to mean "(some) things (that/which) they
(have) left us (= bequeathed/handed down to us)" ("dingen die zij aan ons
hebben nagelaten/vermaakt/overleverd"). It is not a sentence but a noun
phrase.

Oh, and the Kahuna (http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm) isn't
involved in these projects. He's not that creative, is more of an observer
and figure head.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 19:40:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:40:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.19 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.124049.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Below is a link to a video recording of a German TV documentary about
agricultural challenges and flood defenses. The two men in it speak Eastern
Friesland Low Saxon, and there are German subtitles.

http://tinyurl.com/4vxjpt

This offers you a chance to listen to genuine, old-time, natively spoken Low
Saxon of that region, specifically near Emden and the border with Groningen.
These may be members of the last generation of speakers of such varieties
with litte German influence. Those varieties have East Frisian substrata.
The phonology is considerably different from "mainstream" Northern Low Saxon
of Germany, is closer to Groningen varieties west of the Netherlands-German
border. For one thing, they are rhotic (i.e. "pronounce final /r/"), though
varieties spoken farther east in Eastern Friesland are non-rhotic.

For speakers of other Low Saxon varieties of Germany, the gentleman in the
boat is fairly easy to understand, while the other gentleman, the one doing
most of the talking, is quite difficult to understand (certainly without the
subtitles), in part because he speaks to fast.

We have an Eastern Friesland Low Saxon translation of the wren story as
well, and it comes with an audio recording. This is a non-rhotic variety.

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/contents.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 19 19:43:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:43:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2008.06.19 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JUN.2008.124326.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.19 (02) [E]

Dear all,

Having an evening "off" wall anchors, I call to mind an old saying or poem,
that I first came across as a child (eek! years ago) and was amazed not to
find it on google .. and also wonder if it is a 'lowlands' meme.

It goes ...
A life time to learn to plough, another to reap, another to sow.

(sowing and reaping in the wrong order?).

I have a feeling that 'another to brew, another to bake' forms part of it.
Perhaps other crafts too.

Cheers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
       ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 15:11:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:11:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.081111.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Projects

> "Things They Left Us" is supposed to mean
> "(some) things (that/which) they
> (have) left us (= bequeathed/handed down to us)"
> ("dingen die zij aan ons
> hebben nagelaten/vermaakt/overleverd"). It is not a
> sentence but a noun
> phrase.

Ah, I meant to say: an ideal title.
Sorry.
vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.19 (03) [E]

I like it!
Paul F-B

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Thanks, Theo and Paul!

This makes the three of us the clear majority.

Enjoy your weekend!

Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 16:06:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:06:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.20 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.090609.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.19 (06) [E]

From: From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Below is a link to a video recording of a German TV documentary about
> agricultural challenges and flood defenses. The two men in it speak Eastern
> Friesland Low Saxon, and there are German subtitles.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/4vxjpt
>
> This offers you a chance to listen to genuine, old-time, natively spoken
> Low Saxon of that region, specifically near Emden and the border with
> Groningen. These may be members of the last generation of speakers of such
> varieties with litte German influence. Those varieties have East Frisian
> substrata. The phonology is considerably different from "mainstream"
> Northern Low Saxon of Germany, is closer to Groningen varieties west of the
> Netherlands-German border. For one thing, they are rhotic (i.e. "pronounce
> final /r/"), though varieties spoken farther east in Eastern Friesland are
> non-rhotic.
>
> For speakers of other Low Saxon varieties of Germany, the gentleman in the
> boat is fairly easy to understand, while the other gentleman, the one doing
> most of the talking, is quite difficult to understand (certainly without the
> subtitles), in part because he speaks to fast.
>
>  Wo du dor vun schriffst: Op de plattd??tsche Wikipedia sammel ik
Websteden, op de sik een Plattd??tsch anh??rn kann: <
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Platt_anh%C3%B6%C3%B6rn> (is dat
Tofall, dat du hier vun dit Video schriffst? Is j?st twee Daag her, dat ik
dat Video in de List indragen harr). Blot een Dialekt fehlt mi dor noch
kumplett: M?rkisch/Brannenborgsch. Op all de groten Videosieden (YouTube,
Myvideo, Clipfish un wat dat allens geven mag...): nix. Sogor op de Websteed
to dat "Lautdenkmal reichsdeutscher Mundarten", de allerhand Dialekten hett,
fehlt j?st dat Brannenborgsche kumplett. Nich een enkelt Woord
Brannenborgsch kunn ik op't Internett finnen. Rein gor nix.
Hett dor villicht een en Tipp, wo ik wat finnen kann?

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dat was heel un deel Tofall, Marcus.

I get a message that access is denied to "your country" when I click on this
link: Herbstlied<http://www.clipfish.de/player.php?videoid=NzQzOTk5fDEzMjQwNDU%3D>

Noch wat:
Dat Leed "De Moel" is vun Klaus Groth (http://lowlands-l.net/groth/moel.htm),
man Hannes Wader hett de Musik schr?ven.
De Schakel na Karl-Heinz Groth sien Vertellen is dood.

Well, Marcus, and as for the songs from Schleswig/Sleswig/Slesvig, does this
mean that Low Saxon *is* still used on Danish soil? I have written to the
owner of that Danish site to tell him that Low Saxon is not a "German
language type" as it is called there.

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.19 (06) [E]

 Beste Lowlanners, Ron,

Ron sent this link:

http://tinyurl.com/4vxjpt

and wrote:

> For speakers of other Low Saxon varieties of Germany, the gentleman in the
boat is fairly easy to understand, while the other gentleman, the > one
doing most of the talking, is quite difficult to understand (certainly
without the subtitles), in part because he speaks to fast.

I fully agree, though I am (was?) quite familiar with his dialect. But I
fear I even won't understand him if he would speak Standard German in the
same 'quality' ;-) It's not only his speed that makes him nearly unreadable
but also his nasty habit to speak without any interruption ('ohne Punkt und
Komma'). I remember some people in our region doing the same (today fewer
than in my youth), and they mostly had had bad language education, both by
their parents as well as by school. And one more reason: due to their place
of work many of them havn't got much opportunity to speak, such as a tractor
driver etc.; hence they don't get much communicational feedback from other
people throughout their lives.

Regarding the speed (we've had this thread some years ago, as far as I
remember) it seems to me that there can be determined a West-East incline in
the LS-areas; e.g. Dutch people speak faster than (North-)Western Germans,
and our Easterners in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern slower than the people from
Hamburg (though 'Hamburger Reesb?dels' [= 'a sack which is talking
volubly'] are proverbial- attendants explicitly excluded *s*).

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 15:03:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:03:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.080319.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (03) [E]

Speaking of euphemisms (as opposed to going in the OTHER direction and
getting sonwright scatalogical, which Americans of MY generation, at least,
are also prone to) for the "t'" word:
(and sorry if I duplicate any that have already been covered; I have been
too busy to go through all recent Lowlands mails yet)

see a man about a horse

And in MY house, we have adopted a cute expression from when my son was 3
years old and we were living in Adana, Turkey:

poopaja(??)m / peeyeje(?i)m = I am going (Turkish 1st sg future tense form)
to poop / pee (I use the English spelelings for the roots)

PS Here in Bombay, one almost always sees some expression about "doing the
needful" at the end of letters (usually directing you the reader of the
letter to take the appropriate actition). Some non-Indian English speakers
find this expression quite "cute"; I always have a problem with it (and when
i use it "I will do the needful" i am ALWAYS a being at least a bit
sarcastic ... though that is probably lost on the recipient).

Anyway, Russian for "doing one's business" is :
???? ?? ????? /idti po nuZde/ to go according to need = go to the toilet

So maybe next time I have to go to the tolet here, I will say that I need to
"do the needful" ... and THAT will leave them wondering!

MWM || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 17:17:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:17:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.20 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.101714.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.19 (01) [E]

Elsie said: "Ron, I appreciate you writing 'US Americans'."

Yes, I try to stay sensitive to folks from Latin America when I participate
in forums or chats in Spanish that involve people from Spanish speaking
America.  When they ask where I come from I say that I am an
"estadounidense" (united-stateser)  They always laugh or joke with me for
using that word.  I think it sounds kind of pretentious and they usually
seem surprised (pleasantly) by it.  The word that they use is generally
"americano" or "norteamericano".  Norteamericano (North American) doesn't
quite do it either, because that includes Canadians, Mexicans, and US
Americans which they mean to include only the US variety.  That's why I
think estadounidense works pretty well.  However, technically that could
apply to Mexicans as well.  What's a guy to do?

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.06.19 (01) [E]

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
> Ron, I appreciate you writing 'US Americans'.
>

Oops. *I* (mis?)read it as Ron having included himself into the citizenry of
the country he has adopted i(.e. the one I left 30 years ago to become
Asian!)  ...with emphasis indicated by capital letters : *US* Americans ;-)

MWM || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Indeed, Mike, indeed.

"Asian"? I call it "Eurasian", which means that you and I have two in
common. Not that this is a competition, but I'm one ahead: Australian.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 20 18:24:07 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:24:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.112407.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (02) [E]

 Beste Ron,

just to rough up your (un-)holy trinity *s*...

How would you think about "Language Is History- History Is Language"? Or
isn't it not my own idea, at last? Did I read it anywhere in your
proposals/conceptions??

Just to give you a well deserved feedback and to...- see above!

Nice weekend, dito!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects.

Thanks, Jonny. Not bad. It's probably you that came up with it.

But what to do with it? It looks as though we are talking about two
projects.

I can see it as a "wise sayings" vignette on the index page of the history
project (http://lowlands-l.net/history/).

The title Theo, Paul and I are talking about is for the folk traditions
project. Not all folk traditions involve language, at least not directly.
Included is material culture, beliefs and rituals, such as visual arts,
crafts, celebrations, beliefs, customs, tools, architecture, clothing,
games, etc., aside from sayings, rhymes, songs, stories, and other types of
oral traditions.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 05:51:12 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:51:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.225112.0700.>

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From: Thomas Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (04) [E]

OK how's about the simple "History, Culture,  & Traditions" ?
On 21/06/2008, at 4:24 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

The title Theo, Paul and I are talking about is for the folk traditions
project. Not all folk traditions involve language, at least not directly.
Included is material culture, beliefs and rituals, such as visual arts,
crafts, celebrations, beliefs, customs, tools, architecture, clothing,
games, etc., aside from sayings, rhymes, songs, stories, and other types of
oral traditions.


Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane AUSTRALIA
An honest man's the noblest work of God
Robert Burns

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lowlands-L "Projects" 2008.20.06

Hi Lowlanders,

I only now got round to looking at the background page for the new "History"
project, aka "Water under the Bridge", or "Look at What they Left us in" or
"A Sluice of Life".
Joking aside, I was really moved by Ron's artistry and with the loving care
he put into the text and illustrations. It conveys a true richness of
heritage, a colourful pageant of unique lowlands history. Very inspiring.
Thanks, Ron.

mvg,

Arthur

ARTHUR A. JONES

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Thanks, Tom and Arthur.

Thanks also for the compliments, Arthur, which I return with respect to your
contribution at the new history site (http://lowlands-l.net/history/).

OK, I suspect some of you out there are confused. So please listen carefully
this time, boys and girls!

There are *TWO (2)* new presentations in the making.

The first is already accessible, well connected and receptive:

*Water under The Bridge*
Things past but not forgotten?
History of the Lowlands worldwide
http://lowlands-l.net/history/

This is a done deal and is solely devoted to *history*, though much of it
does and will overlap and will be cross-posted with works displayed in the
Gallery and in the Travel Guide.

Please read the introduction and the submissions page to get ideas.

The *following, separate *presentation will be devoted to *folk traditions*.
It is not yet accessible but should be shortly. I have begun putting it
together, and it will be most beauteous to behold, if I may say so myself
;-) , with an antique, folksy and somewhat whimsical twist on the same basic
design of the entire series.

I have already finished the top banner:

*Things They Left Us*
Folk traditions of the Lowlands worldwide

I will tell you when the doors are open to this one. You may already begin
sending in submissions for this one, anything from short paragraphs to *bona
fide *journal article. Suitable topics include the following, all with the
word "traditional" in front of them:

   - holidays, festivals and rituals
   - customs
   - taboos
   - architecture
   - foods
   - superstitions
   - sayings, proverbs, aphorisms
   - farmers' wisdom
   - divining, healing, soothsaying
   - color, plant and animal symbolisms
   - music, musical instruments, song, dance
   - arts, crafts, tools
   - costumes, fabrics, needle work, etc.

And this is merely a selection off the top of my head. Written material may
include personal memories and the like. Local, regional, national ... they
are all of interest. You don't need to limit this to your own traditions but
may present accounts of your encounters with other Lowlands-related
traditions. Besides written material you may send in lists, facsimiles,
photographs, maps, drawings, paintings, audio files, sheet music and video
clips -- all as long as there are no copyright problems. You retain
copyright to your own works, merely give us permission to display them.

Now that sounds really exciting, doesn't it? I know that many of you are
into this sort of thing. We've already discussed lots of these things over
the years.

So get cracking, dear people!

Thanks!

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 05:53:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:53:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JUN.2008.225338.0700.>

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]

Mike's post reminds me of another euphemism in English for "toilet": the
necessary.

Kevin Caldwell

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.18 (03) [E]

PS Here in Bombay, one almost always sees some expression about "doing the
needful" at the end of letters (usually directing you the reader of the
letter to take the appropriate actition). Some non-Indian English speakers
find this expression quite "cute"; I always have a problem with it (and when
i use it "I will do the needful" i am ALWAYS a being at least a bit
sarcastic ... though that is probably lost on the recipient).

Anyway, Russian for "doing one's business" is :

???? ?? ????? /idti po nuZde/ to go according to need = go to the toilet
 So maybe next time I
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 17:37:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:37:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.103751.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Projects

Dear Lowlanders,

Last night I wrote about the up-and-coming project:

*Things They Left Us*
Folk traditions of the Lowlands worldwide

I will tell you when the doors are open to this one. You may already begin
sending in submissions for this one, anything from short paragraphs to *bona
fide *journal article. Suitable topics include the following, all with the
word "traditional" in front of them:

   - holidays, festivals and rituals
   - customs
   - taboos
   - architecture
   - foods
   - superstitions
   - sayings, proverbs, aphorisms
   - farmers' wisdom
   - divining, healing, soothsaying
   - color, plant and animal symbolisms
   - music, musical instruments, song, dance
   - arts, crafts, tools
   - costumes, fabrics, needle work, etc.

And this is merely a selection off the top of my head. Written material may
include personal memories and the like. Local, regional, national ... they
are all of interest. You don't need to limit this to your own traditions but
may present accounts of your encounters with other Lowlands-related
traditions. Besides written material you may send in lists, facsimiles,
photographs, maps, drawings, paintings, audio files, sheet music and video
clips -- all as long as there are no copyright problems. You retain
copyright to your own works, merely give us permission to display them.

And silly me forgot to mention an important category:

   - *tales, fables. legends*

Don't forget about two types of these: bedside stories and spooky stories.
These are very popular, meaning that people out there look for them to put
their kids to sleep or to scare them.

And as a part of "myths" if you will:

   - *mythical figures*

And last but most likely not least, another important category we have
discussed many times:

   - *games*

This is assuming they are traditional rather than newly invented.

I am likely to think of more categories along the way, and so are all of
you. If your cultures are Lowlands-derived, just cast your minds back to
your childhoods.

If it goes the way I hope it will, this will be a popular series of
presentations.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 18:05:24 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:05:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (02) [E]
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]

When I was growing up in Scotland the toilet was normally referred to as
the "bathroom".

"Toilet" was considered posh and only used when visiting people and
places you didn't know very well.

"Lavvy" was also quite normal though considered a bit crude.

As schoolboys we would normally refer to it as "the bog", though of
course there were other expressions such as "the shitehoose" and "the
wee hoose" ("wee" here meaning "little", so it's actually a cute
euphemism).

British Sign Language also has large numbers of signs for toilet, from
the transparent to the obscure. These are important signs because it's
not usual for a Deaf person to walk off without saying where they're
going: you can't call after them to find out, after all.

Signs that mime (though mime is stylised in sign languages):

   o    pulling a chain on a cistern;
   o    turning a handle on a cistern;
   o    pushing a button on a cistern;
   o    washing hands;

(now I'm thinking, what a strange word, "cistern", where does that come
from?!)

and those that are more abstract:

   o    holding flat hand vertically and tapping the index finger edge
against the right cheek (if it's the right hand), twice: obscure but
looks like it might be a variant of the sign for "private" or else
"call";
   o    extending middle finger from wrist and rubbing it against chest
near opposite shoulder: I've no idea where this comes from;
   o    fingerspelling "TT";

You can of course get rude and just sign "piddle" and suchlike.

In German Sign Language (do they have a separate sign language which
could be called "Low Saxon Sign Language" I wonder, or is it the same
thing?) I've seen two:

   o    shaking a telephone receiver at the side of the head while
mouthing "shhh" (this strikes us British as a very strange and
intriguing sign indeed!);
   o    holding up the hand with the index finger and thumb curved and
the other fingers fanned so that it displays the letters "WC" on a
single hand.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi, Sandy!

This is all interesting stuff. You wrote about German signing for "toilet":

   o    shaking a telephone receiver at the side of the head while
mouthing "shhh" (this strikes us British as a very strange and
intriguing sign indeed!);

My immediate reaction to this description was that it means "Someone is
calling me (on the phone) ... but not really, you know."  Of course, we need
to remind the youngsters among us that all telephones used to have landlines
and were in certain rooms of houses (typically hallways), so that people
usually had to leave to make or receive calls. The shaking receiver sign may
mean "ringing telephone". The "shhh" sign may be a classifier for "taboo
replacement" (saying it in place of something that ought not be said). I
have no idea if any of this is factual. All I can say is that the sign
didn't seem strange to me when I read your description. It would be
interesting to see if the "shhh" sign is used for other euphemisms as well.

Aside from this, let

As schoolboys we would normally refer to it as "the bog", though of
course there were other expressions such as "the shitehoose" and "the
wee hoose" ("wee" here meaning "little", so it's actually a cute
euphemism).

I heard "bog" in this sense used in Australia, and it seemed similarly
coarse.

Scots *shitehoose* [????thus] would be very well understood by Low Saxon
speakers, for their language has a similar sounding cognate: *schythuus* (*
Schiethuus* [??i?thu?s]), plural *schythuys'* (*Schieth??s'* [??i?thy??z]).

There's another choice in Low Saxon: *Pardemang* [?p?a?de?ma??(k)] ~ *
Paddemang* [?p?ade?ma??(k)] ~ *Parremang* [?p?a?re?ma??(k)]. Obviously, this
one comes from French *appartement* which carries the basic sense of
"separate quarter(s)".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 18:30:36 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:30:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.21 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.113036.0700.>

=======================================================================

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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: History - Priestless Church

The Preistless Church article on Water Under the Bridge as two parrallells
in Ireland. In the North of Ireland the Covenentars met in the open while
being persecuted by the Church of England under Charles II, and all the
island is peppered with local "Mass Rocks" where priests on the run preached
to their flock either on the open or from the backs of carts.

Again, there was lookouts, and the Yeomanry were sent to break it up.

Talking of language connections, many dismiss the Dutch influence on English
and Scots here in Ireland. However the Dutch Kerk can clearly be seen to
have influenced the Scots and Ullans word of Kirk, as in Irish it is Cill,
and English has no word I know of similar.

- Tomas

-------

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: History

Ron, i dont know if this post suits the group or not, Ill let you decide. If
it doesnt, delete it, no harm done. It might suit the "Water Under the
Bridge Section".

- Tomas

Tracing familiy branches that have become isolated as a result of history is
something that effects a lot of families, both from the West looking ot the
battlefields of Europe, and from Europe looking out at the allied powers
from where an ancestor may have came.

My Grandunclue Thomas Reilly was as I understand it, the typical bum...
lived for work and drink, and emigrated to the New World circa 1910 from
Ireland. What this has to do with history will be explained later on.

He ended up in the Bowery like many another man and indeed Irishman more
than once, and came home every so often during his dry spells to see family
and tell them just how great the New World was. Of course we had neighbours
there who reported his real situation, but all kept schtum anyway.

In 1917, he joined the US cavalry, and was stationsed in Germany after WWI,
where he met a local girl, and married her (as our version goes, whether he
did or not we dont actually know). She had two children circa 1920-1925, and
died in childbirth, so he gave the children called Tom and Ned to her
parents who were shopkeepers to be raised, headed off to the USA and resumed
his productive lifestyle as before.

After another few bouts n the drink, on the dry, he returned home in 1934
and told such horrifying stories of the hell of the gret war his brother in
law (my grandfather) threatned to hammer him is he did not shut up. The
children were fascinated of cource!!! Now the grandfather was not sqeamish,
having come through the Tan War and the Irish Civil War. (His wifes first
cousing was the wife of the Blacksmith of Ballinalee, General Sean Mac Eoin)

He joined the British Army in WWII and again headed for Europe, losing his
arms and legs in the Dunkirk saga. Moved to military hospital, we got a
telegram in 1953 that he died of TB in military hospital. Being with the
Brits was taboo in them days, so the telegraph was ignored, hushed up and
where the man was buried we dont know.

Contacts with the Royal British Legion were to little avail, but Ive to
follow up a lead they gave me.

So that was that.

I grew up in the little town of Banagher (or Bannaker as many Germans
misrponounced it) One day my dad was enjoying his few drinks too many when
the owner of Haughs pub come over and said "John, heres a good one, have you
ever heard of two Germans called Reilly?" Dad laughed and passed no remarks.

He told my mother when he went home, and she nearly dropped the dinner
plates she was carrying. "They could be Uncle Toms kids" she said. Dad took
the cue to extrat more money for booze from mam, and went officially to
track down the Germans and find out was it them. He got as far as the second
pub down the street, spent the night there and staggered home declaring they
were nowhere to be found, before sheepishly admitting he never looked for
them at all!!!

To make a long story short, we are still looking for this branch of the
family, and maybe a Lowlannds memeber might know a German or two called
Reilly, whose grandparents who reared them were shopkeepers. If you do, or
have photos of them, get in touch.

One of the few pictures I have of him I used in the cover of my poetry book
"Passing by our Planet <http://www.lulu.com/content/322275#>" and I include
below.

That is him in the US cavalry. Those who went and took pictures and sold
them to the soldiers printied the pictures on postcards, and the soldiers
posted them home. We have one of those cards. Unfortunalty, he put the
postcard in an envelope and wrote a letter along with it, as opposed to
writing on the card!!!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi, Tom, thanks, and congrats on another book published!

Family histories do absolutely qualify for inclusion in the history
presentation (http://lowlands-l.net/history/). Say the word, and I'll
include the story about your relative, or you might tweak it a bit if you
wish. Of coarse, your new book can be mentioned in that context.

The same applies if you "donate" a poem or four from the book to the Gallery
presentation (http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/).

And you might like to write something about the Mass Rocks for the History
and/or Travel series.

As for *kerk*, I have a feeling this is a spelling twist on Scots *kirk*.
The short Scots /i/ tends to be pronounced lower than "i" in English "in"
and "lid" and is often heard as [e].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 21 22:35:58 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:35:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.153558.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]

> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]
> Mike's post reminds me of another euphemism in English for "toilet": the
necessary.

In my Limburgish we say "*noa het heske gon*" (go to the little house) for
going to the lavatory.
Formerly the lavatory was a little house, separated from the main building,
not heated, with just a round hole in a board, covering the
pit. Traditionally a little hart was cut-out in the door, so one could have
some contact from the outside with the person inside. The expression
survived, without people realizing the historical etymology.

One of my TV favorites is the Swedish TV film "Kunglig Toalette"  (
http://www.filmpunkten.se/kunglig-toalette.asp). It is about the preparation
of a king's visit to a small town. The visit includes a tour in a plant,
where one thinks one has to construct a lavatory consistent with a supposed
protocol. The leftists are against and use the term "*shithus".* We also
have that term "*sj??tho?s*" (Dutch: schijthuis), but it is very vulgar.
(In my Liburgish: "ho?s" (sleeptoon), plural "hais" (stoottoon), diminutive
"heske")

Today i saw (bilingual) on a bus downtown Brussels that it was going to the
"*cimeti?re / begraafplaats*" (graveyard). I'm rather used to "*kerkhof*",
but nowadays it is no longer close to a church and burials are not all
christian anymore. So the name is adjusted.

False friends:
In the seventies I did a summer job for Babcock in Essen and Oberhausen (I
had to translated specs from Framatome for nuclear plants from French into
German). I worked for an engineer called "*Friedhof".* I wrongly called him
unintentionally "*Kirchhof"* several times.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

> Scots /shitehoose/ [????thus] would be very well understood by Low Saxon
> speakers, for their language has a similar sounding cognate: /schythuus/
> (/Schiethuus/ [??i?thu?s]), plural /schythuys'/ (/Schieth??s'/
> [??i?thy??z]).
>
> There's another choice in Low Saxon: /Pardemang/ [?p?a?de?ma??(k)] ~
> /Paddemang/ [?p?ade?ma??(k)] ~ /Parremang/ [?p?a?re?ma??(k)]. Obviously,
> this one comes from French /appartement/ which carries the basic sense of
> "separate quarter(s)".
>

Traditional Brabantish (and Limburgish as well I believe) has "(h)?ske" for
toilet, which actually means "little house"; because in a farm, a toilet
used to be a little outhouse, separate from the main building. The good
thing was that you had a roof above your head, but still you had to go
outside to take care of business.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (02) [E]

Okay, Sandy brings up a DGS (German Sign Language) sign for toilet
which i happen to know the etymology of (or at least the source and
the common folk etymology).

>    o    shaking a telephone receiver at the side of the head while
> mouthing "shhh" (this strikes us British as a very strange and
> intriguing sign indeed!);

This I have also seen used in international settings among Deaf of
various countries, where various versions of International Sign are
being used. International Sign is largely a "European thing", and it
seems to have been the source of signs in DGS (more so than other sign
languages I am remotely familiar with).

As for the source, it is ASL (American Sign Language, where the idiom
"telephone room" is used for toilet. This usage has apparently been
around for quite some time (decades anyway, judging from the fact that
it is used naturally by people much older than myself). The (folk)
etymology is that back in the old days, before TTYs and faxes, back
when telephones were of absolutely NO use to Deaf people, when you
moved into a new furnished apartment (a common thing in the US), and
there was a telephone wasting perfectly good counter space in the
kitchen or living room, you just unplugged it and proceeded to store
it in the least  : like under the sink in the bathroom, behind all
those poisonous cleansers, etc.

Whether this etymology is correct of not (it seems to me to be too
cute to be true), nevertheless the idiom is quite widespread, and I
believe the source of the DGS sign (modified of course).

As for the other DGS sign Sandy refers to, namely:
>    o    holding up the hand with the index finger and thumb curved and
> the other fingers fanned so that it displays the letters "WC" on a
> single hand.

This is exactly the sign used in JSL (Japanese Sign Language).

NGT (Sign Language of the Netherlands ... FINALLY! A LOWLANDS sign
language) has an interesting twist to this sign: the fingerspelling
sign for "W" (the extended thumb, index and middle fingers) is bent
(as in the fingerspelled letter "C") -- and instance of a
fingerspelling handshape incorporated into another fingerspelling
handshape. (Number incorporation is quite common across sign
languages; alphabet letter incorporation into a sign is also quite
common, but into another alphabet letter is quite rare.)

> British Sign Language also has large numbers of signs for toilet,
>    ...
>    o    washing hands;

This is the more "genteel" JSL sign, used by ladies (as opposed to
women!). It is no dout also connected with the Japanese euphemism ???
o-tearai literally "most respected hand washing (place)"

(As with BSL, JSL has a number of not so genteel ways of signing
toilet ... mostly seen among elderly men.)

>    o    fingerspelling "TT";

The most common ASL sign for toilet is the fingerspelled "T" shaken
from side to side. As this handshape (with the thumb inserted between
the index and middle fingers of the closed fist) is considered QUITE
rude in many parts of the world, it had best be avoided outside of its
homeland.

A repeated fingerspelling, similar to the BSL "TT" is the ASL "RR" ...
for "RestRoom". It also so happens to be the sign for "RailRoad"!

Here in India the commonest sign is also that used by the hearing
population as gesture: The extended pinkie finger is shaken from side
to side. (Actually, strictly speaking this refers ONLY to urination,
but ...)

Finally, moving away from sign languages to Lowlands territory (of
colonial days anyway) again, the Scots "the wee hoose" , referring no
doubt to the days of the outhouse, is exactly parallel to the way the
room is referred to in Bahasa Indonesia.

MWM || ??? || ???? || ????  || ???? || ????
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 00:52:09 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:52:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.21 (05) [LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.175209.0700.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (01) [LS]

Am 20.06.2008 um 18:06 schrieb Marcus Buck:

 Op de plattd??tsche Wikipedia sammel ik Websteden, op de sik een
> Plattd??tsch anh??rn kann: <http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Platt_anh%C3%B6%C3%B6rn>
> (is dat Tofall, dat du hier vun dit Video schriffst? Is j?st twee Daag her,
> dat ik dat Video in de List indragen harr). Blot een Dialekt fehlt mi dor
> noch kumplett: M?rkisch/Brannenborgsch.
>

Hey Marcus un al,

daar gift't wual nich meer viel. Dat dr?fde daarmet to daun hebben, dat
Berlin - as de groute Agathe Laasch dat in "Berlinisch" - Eine berlinische
Sprachgeschichte (1928) afhannelt harr -, Berlin toeerste, dan nau un nau
auk dat branneborgske ?mmelant al t?sken 1400 un 1500 offisiel un bet 1800
folgens wual auk de meerste deel van'n volk to dat Meesniske
(Mei?nische=haugd??tsk-"buawensassiske" van'm 15. jaarhunnert) wesselt
harren. Dat m?gget mi bes?nners, wiil dat Mi?rkiske viel van den
Oustfialsken seddelers/kolonisten pri?get was (un dar?mme auk wat van de
westfialske diphtongeerenge harr!). M?n 'n paar ??werbliiwsel mag dat wual
nau giiwen.

 Nich een enkelt Woord Brannenborgsch kunn ik op't Internett finnen. Rein
> gor nix.
> Hett dor villicht een en Tipp, wo ik wat finnen kann?
>

Een paar korte toun-upnaamen gift't up de websiit van de Uni Potsdam:
http://www.uni-potsdam.de/u/germanistik/ls_dia/umfrage/

Een paar schriewene teksten up m?rkisk kanste up de websiide van'n
Brannenborger Kultuurbund fiinen:
http://www.kulturbund.de/mundart/p2.htm

Met echt-westf?lsken Gr?iten
Joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
(Berlin)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 01:02:26 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:02:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (06) [E/LS/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JUN.2008.180226.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (04) [E]

At 06:35 PM 21/06/2008, Roger Thijs wrote:

In my Limburgish we say "*noa het heske gon*" (go to the little house) for
going to the lavatory.
Formerly the lavatory was a little house, separated from the main building,
not heated, with just a round hole in a board, covering the pit.
Traditionally a little hart was cut-out in the door, so one could have some
contact from the outside with the person inside. The expression survived,
without people realizing the historical etymology.


"In the summer fifty yards too close, and in the winter fifty yards too far
away."

 One of my TV favorites is the Swedish TV film "Kunglig Toalette"
(http://www.filmpunkten.se/kunglig-toalette.asp).
It is about the preparation of a king's visit to a small town. The visit
includes a tour in a plant, where one thinks one has to construct a lavatory
consistent with a supposed protocol. The leftists are against and use the
term "*shithus".* We also have that term "*sj????tho??s*" (Dutch:
schijthuis), but it is very vulgar.
(In my Liburgish: "ho??s" (sleeptoon), plural "hais" (stoottoon), diminutive
"heske")


There's a North American (at least) expression about particularly well built
and solid structures of which it is said:  "Built like a brick shithouse."

When I was an undergraduate living in a dorm where we were supposed to speak
German, there was a poem on the bathroom door, which went:

In diesem Haus da wohnt ein Geist
Wer l?nger als zehn Minuten schei?t
Den unten in den S?ckel bei?t
Zehn Minuten wird schon geschissen,
Wer l?nger bleibt wird rausgeschmissen.

This was also translated into five or six other languages.  Hey, Ron, maybe
this could be a project to translate this into all the Lowlands languages!
Maybe I could get some oak clusters to go with my Golden Squirrel.

Ed Alexander

----------

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (05) [LS]

Hey,

22.06.2008 klok 00:35 schraif Roger Thijs:

> In my Limburgish we say "noa het heske gon" (go to the little house) for
> going to the lavatory.
>

Dat g?lt auk for't Westfialske. In'm Usembr?gger Lant (region of Osnabr?ck)
is dat
"nau'n h??sken gaun", bi mansl??e [men] langede auk meerstiids "de
piss-oort". En bietken fiiner is "af-oort" or'r de ber?umte "fruu Meggern"
[Mrs. Meyer]. Man dat setde al voruut, dat de buuren s?ckes hat hewwet, wat
je nich j?mmers giewen was...

De groute Westfialsk-schriiwer Lyra berichtede (1844) van eene begiewenheet,
as he met siin'n Vaader - en pastoor up'm lande -  nau'n stierwenskranken
buuren metgaun was:

------------------------------
Mi kwam wat an [something came over me] un ick fr??g de Aulsken [squaw, the
peasent's wife], waar de Fruu Meggern w??re, dann sau hedde de Afoort in
uusen Huuse; dat verst?nd se anteerste nich, man as'k't eer d??tlicker
maakede [after making it clearer], si? se [she said]: Met s?cke
Wiitl?ftigheeden h?lt de Buur sick nich up, de dooet s?ckes wat alltiidt uut
friier Hand u?wer de Hacken weg [over the heels], un wi bringet 't meestig
achter 't Backs  [bakery house] an de M??ren, of t?sken de Fiikeshaunen
[broad beans - Vicia faba]; ick woll di den Weg wual wiisen, man ick rieke,
du schast 'ne alleine wual fiinen, dann 'r staaet Wegwiisers e noog langes
'n Haagen, dat du nich betwielen [lose the way - miss the path] kannst. Wann
du de B?cksen [trousers] wual [perhaps, in case] nich alleine wier to
kriigen kannst, dann kumm man wier na mi, dann will 'k se di faste wier
tokn?upen.

(F. W. Lyra: Plattdeutsche Briefe, Erz?hlungen und Gedichte..., Osnabr?ck
1844)
------------------------------

==> Siit een paar daagen kan men dat bouk van F. W. Lyra - dank miiner
Digi-Book-Vadderscup (sponsorship) - "anner liine" li?sen [read online] or'r
runnerlaaen (man dat is in de originaale fraktuur-schrift):

http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/no_cache/dms/load/toc/?IDDOC=321236

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

There's another word for "toilet" in Northern Low Saxon: *aftrit*
(*Aftritt*[??aftr?t]), literally something like ""step-away"
("off-step").

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 15:53:54 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:53:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.085354.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.21 (03) [E]

> From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
> Subject: History

[...]

> To make a long story short, we are still looking for this
> branch of the
> family, and maybe a Lowlannds memeber might know a German
> or two called
> Reilly, whose grandparents who reared them were
> shopkeepers. If you do, or
> have photos of them, get in touch.

Hi Tom,

If I understand correctly, you want to find family in Germany [we all want,
of course], and the name  = Reilly .

Such a small, but dignified name, we have to try.

Look in:

http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/Default.aspx

and you'll find 34 persons in the German telephone-books [no no no no, don't
touch the bottle].

If all these 34 persons are your family: congratulations, and many happy
birthdays to each one of them. And to you of course.

Come over, and have a look, and have a drink or two with each one of them,
and write a poem about each one of them: All Lowlanders are waiting.

Congratulations.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 16:16:04 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:16:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.091604.0700.>

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.20 (04) [E]

Ron, you wrote:
I can see it as a "wise sayings" vignette on the index page of the history
project (http://lowlands-l.net/history/).

I followed the link and it brought me to Andrys Onsman's contribution to the
project: "In Jabik's Footsteps".

Andrys writes: "The path starts in St Jabik (called Sint Jacobiparochie in
Dutch), a small village in the far north in the semi-autonomous area called
Frysl?n."

Frysl?n (Friesland) semi autonomous? Since when? To my knowledge nothing in
this country has a different administrative status. There is the national
government (rijksoverheid), 12 provincial governments (Friesland is one of
those) and some 430 local authorities (gemeenten). All provincial
governments are bound by the same laws.

Very interesting contribution though. The pilgrimage to Santiago de
Compostella is done by quite a few people and not only for religious reasons
(sometimes not at all).

Groetjes, Fred
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 16:10:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:10:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.091049.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.
Subject: LL-L Language varieties

Dutch linguists include Limburgish in the Dutch language area. For them the
maken-machen isogloss separates Dutch from German, making the dialect of
Eupen the most Southern variant of Dutch.

In 1815 five cantons at the East of the former French Dept. de l'Ourthe (now
the Belgian province of Li?ge) were ceeded to Prussia:
- Eupen (before 1795 belonging to the Duchy of Limburg)
- Malmedy (before 1795 belonging to the joint abbey territory of
Stavelot-Malmedy)
- SanktVith, Schleiden and Kronenburg (before 1795 belonging to the Duchy of
Luxemburg)
(From the canton of Aubel the Eastern part of the municipality of Moresnet
became Prussian, the center remained undivided)
In Prussian Rhenania, the Eupen area became a Kreis, Sankt-Vith was absobed
into the Kreis Malmedy.

In 1919 Eupen (including Neutral Moresnet) and Malmedy (including St-Vith)
were, with some minor borderline corrections, ceeded to Belgium. Momentarily
the area belongs to the Walloon region in Belgium. The districts of Eupen
and Sank-Vith form the German language cultural area (with own govenment and
parliament). For the walloon-language district of Malmedy there is a formal
protection of the German minority.

The "Eupener Geschichts- und Museumsverein" publishes a yearbook. I just got
the one for 2008:
"Geschichtliches Eupen", Band XLII, 2008, Grenz-Echo Verlag, Eupen, ISBN
978-3-86712-024-1, 176 pp.

Historical contributions are interleaved with small texts in local dialect.
Below a sample from p. 133-134.
The g -> j substitution is for me rather typical for Ripuarian.
The multiple use of accents may be induced by French and/or Walloon
orthography.

-- quote:
WALTER POMM?E

D'r oue Dag

Ich jl?ev et k?mmt an jiter?ne
D?e et bis da noch hat geschaft.
Jemeind s?nd all die L? su ?ver s?stech
En die dr D?edt noch niet hat wejjeraft.
Me bruckt sech m?r ens v?r ne Spiejel hen te stelle,
Da sitt me wat et L?eve hat ?et ?es jemagd.

W?e fr?jer wor ene "Locke-Kopp"
Da is nu jar jen Hoor mie dropp.
Da sitt me hie en da en Frattel,
die bo esu groet s?nt wie en Dattel.
De Teint s?nt och niet mie va mich,
die lije dajlang op jene Desch.
Anstatt se ejen Mull te doene,
sitt me mich ohne Teint da stoene.

Da s?ent, besaundesch v?el hie Fr?he,
et jans jesicht voll gr?ete Vaue.
Wat kann me mer dajeje d?ene,
Et lonnt niet, no dr Dokter johne,
de j?tt dech Rohtschl?ch noch en noch
of die ?ech helpe, bezweifl' ech noch.
Da haut och noch, of Mann of Fr?u
Aunder jither P?et, en Elstero.

(wert wierjemaakt)
-- page 133 / 134
(Hje jet et wiher)

Met Artrose, Rheuma, Gicht,
spart dr aue Dag och nich.
Jett mut ich noch dohn erw?ene,
e kitschke d?of is och bo jider?ne
?ech mit ene Br?elle ob jen T?ll,
sitt meh hie bo all ?e L?e.

Frohl?, Mannsl? ?ver sestech,
di v?r Johre sport jemakt,
die s?nt mestens fitt en kr?ftej
weil se noch v?el Muskelle hannt.
Ne jo?e Roht will ich noch j?ve.
J?et met jene Kopp h?ech d?rch et L?ve,
Makt alles met, met v?l Humor,
da is et Auerwerde v?er j?ne mie esue schwor.

-- end quote

Enjoy puzzling,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks a lot, dear Roger.

That *is* a very interesting transitional variety. That general geographical
area is rather interesting in that it's a meeting place of Low Franconian,
Limburgish, Low Saxon, and Ripuarian, thus of Lowlands varieties and Central
German.

I take it *geschaft* is an error, should be *jeschaft* 'accomplished'.

The shift g > j is indeed a Ripuarian feature. In Low Saxon it is a feature
of the far-eastern varieties.

If we consider *bezweifl'* (Low Saxon *betwievel*) '(I) view with doubt' a
German loan (*ich bezweifle*), I would consider this variety Lowlandic with
a touch of Ripuarian color.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 16:22:19 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:22:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.092219.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]

> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]
> Mike's post reminds me of another euphemism in English for "toilet": the
necessary.

In my Limburgish we say "*noa het heske gon*" (go to the little house) for
going to the lavatory.
Formerly the lavatory was a little house, separated from the main building,
not heated, with just a round hole in a board, covering the
pit. Traditionally a little hart was cut-out in the door, so one could have
some contact from the outside with the person inside. The expression
survived, without people realizing the historical etymology.

In Westerlauwer Frisian the most common expression too is: "nei it h?ske
gean".
The toilet is still referred to as "it h?ske", almost universally, I would
say.
I've heard this on Heligoland as well, and it probably occurs in more
Frisian dialects in Germany as well.

Henno

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Ron,

I wrote:

> Traditional Brabantish (and Limburgish as well I believe) has "(h)?ske" for
> toilet, which actually means "little house"; because in a farm, a toilet
> used to be a little outhouse, separate from the main building. The good
> thing was that you had a roof above your head, but still you had to go
> outside to take care of business.
>

Apparently Austrian German uses a similar word for toilet: H?usl. On the
evolution of the tiniest room:

http://www.ooegeschichte.at/WC.723.0.html

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: Even in the mid-20th century, the "Misthaufen" was still in use here
in many farms (for the purpose mentioned above).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Luc.

Apparently Austrian German uses a similar word for toilet: H?usl. On the
evolution of the tiniest room:

It's the same in Bavarian, now spelled *Hoisl*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 22 16:23:42 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:23:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.092342.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 22 June 2008 - Volume 04
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (06) [E]

> From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.20 (01) [E]
> Mike's post reminds me of another euphemism in English for "toilet": the
necessary.

In my Limburgish we say "*noa het heske gon*" (go to the little house) for
going to the lavatory.
Formerly the lavatory was a little house, separated from the main building,
not heated, with just a round hole in a board, covering the
pit. Traditionally a little hart was cut-out in the door, so one could have
some contact from the outside with the person inside. The expression
survived, without people realizing the historical etymology.

In Westerlauwer Frisian the most common expression too is: "nei it h?ske
gean".
The toilet is still referred to as "it h?ske", almost universally, I would
say.
I've heard this on Heligoland as well, and it probably occurs in more
Frisian dialects in Germany as well.

Henno

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Ron,

I wrote:

> Traditional Brabantish (and Limburgish as well I believe) has "(h)?ske" for
> toilet, which actually means "little house"; because in a farm, a toilet
> used to be a little outhouse, separate from the main building. The good
> thing was that you had a roof above your head, but still you had to go
> outside to take care of business.
>

Apparently Austrian German uses a similar word for toilet: H?usl. On the
evolution of the tiniest room:

http://www.ooegeschichte.at/WC.723.0.html

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: Even in the mid-20th century, the "Misthaufen" was still in use here
in many farms (for the purpose mentioned above).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Luc.

Apparently Austrian German uses a similar word for toilet: H?usl. On the
evolution of the tiniest room:

It's the same in Bavarian, now spelled *Hoisl*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 03:58:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:58:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.205816.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (01) [E]

Ill check it out!!!

Thanks,

Tomas

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.21 (03) [E]

> From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
> Subject: History

[...]

> To make a long story short, we are still looking for this
> branch of the
> family, and maybe a Lowlannds memeber might know a German
> or two called
> Reilly, whose grandparents who reared them were
> shopkeepers. If you do, or
> have photos of them, get in touch.

Hi Tom,

If I understand correctly, you want to find family in Germany [we all want,
of course], and the name  = Reilly .

Such a small, but dignified name, we have to try.

Look in:

http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/Default.aspx

and you'll find 34 persons in the German telephone-books [no no no no, don't
touch the bottle].

If all these 34 persons are your family: congratulations, and many happy
birthdays to each one of them. And to you of course.

Come over, and have a look, and have a drink or two with each one of them,
and write a poem about each one of them: All Lowlanders are waiting.

Congratulations.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

?

==============================END===================================

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 03:59:14 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:59:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.205914.0700.>

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

 ========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2008 - Volume 05
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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 ========================================================================

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (01) [E]

Ill check it out!!!

Thanks,

Tomas

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.21 (03) [E]

> From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
> Subject: History

[...]

> To make a long story short, we are still looking for this
> branch of the
> family, and maybe a Lowlannds memeber might know a German
> or two called
> Reilly, whose grandparents who reared them were
> shopkeepers. If you do, or
> have photos of them, get in touch.

Hi Tom,

If I understand correctly, you want to find family in Germany [we all want,
of course], and the name  = Reilly .

Such a small, but dignified name, we have to try.

Look in:

http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/Default.aspx

and you'll find 34 persons in the German telephone-books [no no no no, don't
touch the bottle].

If all these 34 persons are your family: congratulations, and many happy
birthdays to each one of them. And to you of course.

Come over, and have a look, and have a drink or two with each one of them,
and write a poem about each one of them: All Lowlanders are waiting.

Congratulations.

vr. gr.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 04:05:51 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:05:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.210551.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2008 - Volume 06
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
> Subject: Language varieties
> I take it *geschaft* is an error, should be *jeschaft* 'accomplished'.

Here is a scan of the original:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/133.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/134.jpg

This time it's not a typing error of mine.

I'm not sure about the rules,
cf. "gesmackt" p. 68 in the same publication.
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/68.jpg

I think there is a mixture in this transition area, or both forms may be
accepable in some cases.
Dialects are not standardized.
Eupen is normally written *?pe*, here (p. 68) though *??pe*
(Actually in German it is wrongly pronounced, by misreading the Low
Franconian orthography)

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (02) [E]

I wrote about the initial g/j
> I think there is a mixture in this transition area, or both forms may be
accepatble in some cases.

I would like to add a few things to my previous mailing.

Before WWII Eupen was apparently not yet Ripuarized for the initial g.
cf. Wilhelm Welter, *Die Niederfr?nkischen Mundarten im Nordosten der
Provinz L?ttich*, 1933, 's Gravenhage, xix + 206 pp.
especially p 28-31
The book is yellowed, brittle, and almost falling into pieces, but I could
still scan:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w28.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w29.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w30.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w31.jpg
The six villages at the left of the map merged into "Voeren" and are now
part of the province of Belgian Limburg.
Linguists consider the *Bernrather Linie* (maken/machen) as the delimiter od
Dutch. Practically there is a complex transition in the field, as one will
understand from pages 25-27
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w25.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w26.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/w27.jpg
A map of the situation before 1919 (with Eupen still in Prussia) is on p
xix:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/wxiv.jpg

The E in the notes refers to an earlier book by Welter:
*Studien zur Dialektgeographie des Kreises Eupen*, Rheinisches Archiv, VIII,
Bonn, 1929
but I don't have that one.

Some other maps are scanned from the:
*Wortatlas der deutschen Umgangsspprachen in Belgien,*
herausgegeben von der Forschungsstelle f?r Mehrsprachlichkeit in Br?ssel
unter Leitung von Peter H. Nelde,
Wortatlas der deutschen Umgangssprachen, Erg?nzungsreihe, herausgegeben von
J?rgen Eichhoff, Band I,
Francke Verlag, Bern und Stuttgart, 1987
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/n15.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/n16.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/n17.jpg
(I got an annotated copy in an antiquarian bookshop, It was sent by Francke
Verlag, Bern, to the "Faculteit van de Letteren en Wijsbegeerte" of Ghent
University, but I guess they dumped it because of the notes. I often find
annotated books in antiquarian bookshops. I like buying them, since one gets
two books for one)

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.20 (03) [E/LS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> I get a message that access is denied to "your country" when I click on
> this link: Herbstlied <
> http://www.clipfish.de/player.php?videoid=NzQzOTk5fDEzMjQwNDU%3D>
>


 Well, Marcus, and as for the songs from Schleswig/Sleswig/Slesvig, does
> this mean that Low Saxon /is/ still used on Danish soil? I have written to
> the owner of that Danish site to tell him that Low Saxon is not a "German
> language type" as it is called there.
>
I don't know. The recordings are from the 1960s, according to the site. It's
not unlikely, that some are left even today, but if so, there will be few.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.21 (05) [LS]

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de <mailto:
Kreimer at jpberlin.de>>

>
>    Op de plattd??tsche Wikipedia sammel ik Websteden, op de sik een
>    Plattd??tsch anh??rn kann:
>    <http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Platt_anh%C3%B6%C3%B6rn>
>    (is dat Tofall, dat du hier vun dit Video schriffst? Is j?st twee
>    Daag her, dat ik dat Video in de List indragen harr). Blot een
>    Dialekt fehlt mi dor noch kumplett: M?rkisch/Brannenborgsch.
>
> Hey Marcus un al,
>
> daar gift't wual nich meer viel. Dat dr?fde daarmet to daun hebben, dat
> Berlin - as de groute Agathe Laasch dat in "Berlinisch" - Eine berlinische
> Sprachgeschichte (1928) afhannelt harr -, Berlin toeerste, dan nau un nau
> auk dat branneborgske ?mmelant al t?sken 1400 un 1500 offisiel un bet 1800
> folgens wual auk de meerste deel van'n volk to dat Meesniske
> (Mei?nische=haugd??tsk-
> "buawensassiske" van'm 15. jaarhunnert) wesselt harren. Dat m?gget mi
> bes?nners, wiil dat Mi?rkiske viel van den Oustfialsken seddelers/kolonisten
> pri?get was (un dar?mme auk wat van de westfialske diphtongeerenge harr!).
> M?n 'n paar ??werbliiwsel mag dat wual nau giiwen.
>
Ganz so fr?h weer dat aver noch nich. In'n S?den is al temlich fr?h wat
afbr?ckelt, aver Berlinisch is eerst en Problem worrn, nadem Berlin anfungen
hett, so dull to wassen. Dat g?ng bes?nners los, nadem se Hauptstadt weer
vun dat D??tsche Riek. V?r 1870 harr Berlin man kuum 500.000 Inwahners un is
denn in f?fftig Johr op ?ver veer Millionen wussen. Wenker hett 1880 noch en
intakte Dialektlandschaft v?rfunnen, de is nu nich mehr dor. Allens in de
Berlinerismen afsapen. De Dialektbispelen vun de Uni Potsdam wiest dat ja
ok. In de Prignitz heet dat dor ok 'ooch' un nich 'ook'. Un de Uni hett en
?mfraag, de intressant is: <
http://www.uni-potsdam.de/u/germanistik/ls_dia/umfrage/>.
De olen L??d ?ver 60, de seggt to'n Deel mit ?ver 90 %, dat de Dialekt in
jemehr ??rd 'Platt' heet (un en groten Deel seggt ok, dat se em snackt, dat
weer 1993). De jungen L??d seggt all, dat dor 'Berlinerisch' snackt warrt.
Un so is dat wohrschienlich ok: De Olen snackt Platt un de Jungen berlinert.
Ik heff ja so'n beten den Verdacht, dat dat mit Brannenborg un dat
Plattd??tsche gornich so slecht uts?ht, as wat een denkt, wenn man sik
ankickt, wo wenig Brannenb?rger Platt in B?ker, in Bl?der, in Funk un
Feernsehn bruukt warrt. Wenn een na de Pr?senz in disse Medien kickt, denn
mutt een denken, dat Brannenb?rger Platt musedood is. Aver dat gl??v ik
gornich mal. Ik gl??v, dat gifft noch allerhand ole L??d, de sik blot nich
wiest, blot privat Platt bruukt. Ik gl??v, dat hett veel mit 'Identit?t' to
doon. F?r de Noordd??tschen steckt in 'Plattd??tsch' en St?ck Identit?t. F?r
de Bayern steckt in Bairisch veel Identit?t un de Swiezer Identit?t reckt so
wied, dat 90 % vun de Swiezers j?mmer Dialekt snackt. F?r de Brannenb?rger
steckt in Plattd??tsch keen Identit?t. Ganz in'n Gegendeel: De Erfolg vun
dat Berlinerische hett wohrschienlich v?r allen ok dormit to doon, dat dat
'Ossi-Sprache' is. De DDR-Identit?t.
De L??d in Brannenborg snackt also villicht noch Platt, aver se schrievt
keen B?ker un nehmt keen Leder op, denn 'Platt' passt nich to de Identit?t,
to dat Selbstbild.
Denn dor m??t wi vun utgahn, dat Selbstbild h?ngt kuum vun de Realit?t af.
Wat een gl??vt, wat een is. W?llt man blot an de L??d ut Pomerode in
Brasilien denken. De kemen ut Pommern. Aver in Brasilien weren se mank de
Brasilianers de 'D??tschen'. Un 'D??tsche' fiert Oktoberfest, dat weet doch
de ganze Welt. Un so hebbt de L??d ut Pomerode anfungen, Oktoberfest to
fiern. Ok wenn dat in Pommern wohrschienlich bet op den h?digen Dag noch
keen Oktoberfest geven hett.
Brannenb?rger Platt l??st also f?r de Brannenb?rger eenfach keen 'Wi'-Gef?hl
ut. Bi de Noordd??tschen gifft dat so'n Wi-Gef?hl mit Plattd??tsch as
Utgangspunkt. Un de Katalanen hebbt eerst recht en Wi-Gef?hl, dat sik ut de
Spraak n?hrt.

Brannenb?rgsch is also villicht gor nich doder as Oostf??lsch un Westf??lsch
ok. Blot, dat de 'Nich-Dodigheit' vun n?ms wohrnahmen warrt. Wenn wi an
Richard Dawkins un sien 'Mem' denkt, denn is dat villicht en 'Negativ-Mem'.
Dat Nich-Utspreken un Nich-Bewusstwarrn-Laten vun en Gedanken, dat sik
verbreden deit. En Swart Lock in'n Infobit-Kosmos. Kollektive
Unbewusstseinswerdung.

oder so

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 04:08:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:08:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JUN.2008.210808.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2008 - Volume 07
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (04) [E]

In Westerlauwer Frisian the most common expression too is: "nei it h?ske
gean". The toilet is still referred to as "it h?ske", almost universally, I
would say.
I've heard this on Heligoland as well, and it probably occurs in more
Frisian dialects in Germany as well.

Henno

Hi Henno

In Liwadders we still sing the song:
As kleine jonkjes (of meiskes) op beppe's huuske zitte, dan zakke ze deur de
bril.
It is accompanied by putting the child onto your knees and opening them
suddenly to let him or her "fall into the loo".

Cheers
Andrys
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 16:23:56 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:23:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JUN.2008.092356.0700.>

=========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 June 2008 - Volume 01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.22 (04) [E]

In Westerlauwer Frisian the most common expression too is: "nei it h?ske
gean". The toilet is still referred to as "it h?ske", almost universally, I
would say.

I've heard this on Heligoland as well, and it probably occurs in more
Frisian dialects in Germany as well.

Henno

Hi Henno

In Liwadders we still sing the song:
As kleine jonkjes (of meiskes) op beppe's huuske zitte, dan zakke ze deur de
bril.
It is accompanied by putting the child onto your knees and opening them
suddenly to let him or her "fall into the loo".

Cheers
Andrys

I seem to remember a similar 'game' here, with a completely unrelated text
though, it goes something like "macadam, macadam, macadam dam dam, steenweg,
steenweg, ne put!" iirc.

Diederik
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 16:25:48 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:25:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.23 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JUN.2008.092548.0700.>

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From: Hugo Zweep <Zweep at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.22 (03) [E]

Fred and Andrys as well as others might like to know that there is now an
official starting point for the Camino de Santiago in Groningen - apparently
recently opened (inaugurated) by Cardinal Simonis. You can see details of it
on www.jacobspad.nl,

I completed the Camino between St Jean de Pied de Port and Santiago at the
end of April and from there went to the Netherlands and walked for about 10
days following the Wad en Wierdenpad to Nieuwe Schans and then a further
80km or so of the Noaberspad along the German/Dutch border. The main
objective was to take a good long and slow look around where I grew up in
the 1940s but also to see whether there were still many Lowlands speakers
and whether I could be understood. That was a mildly surprising experience
and I'll try and write about it for the Travel section later this year.

In doing the Wierdenpad you coincide with the new Jacobspad for about 10km.
Not knowing about the existence of that extension at the time I wondered why
I was seeing the Camino markers familiar from Spain. Still, the official
path in the Netherlands isn't nearly as much fun as Andrys' version seems to
be. I recommend the Andrys pilgrimage to anyone who might be too seriousl
about the spiritual elevation of the official path.

Hugo Zweep

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 16:58:45 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:58:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]

Leve Lowlanders,

The area around Eupen-Maastricht-Liege-Aachen is linguistically indeed very
interesting and very confusing including the curious existence of Neutral
Moresnet which was a virtually independent country for almost hundred years,
remnants are still found as e.g  at the three-country-point near Vaals where
the border lines drawn on the ground still mark the border of former Neutral
Moresnet and the street leading to the three -country-point in Vaals is
still called Viergrensenweg. Since it is linguistically accepted that those
dialects north of the Benrath line are to be categorized as Dutch this again
raises more queston because those dialects in Moenchengladbach (Jlabbaeck)
Neuss (Nuess) and above all Duesseldorf (excl. Benrath) are to be considered
Dutch, thus Lowlands. Kirchroeds (Kerkrade dialect) would be considered
non-Lowlands. But culturally the people in Duesseldorf and Nuess would not
really consider themselfs Dutch, they culturally are much more orientated to
Ripurarian Cologne for obvious geographical reasons, whose dialect they
understand without a problem. Then again, traditionally the people from
Jlabbaeck have no difficulties to understand a dialect speaker from
Roermond, which anyone from Cologne will probably not understand. So where
do you draw the border? The answer is: you cannot!  There is a very
interesting article concering the Franconian language which rejects the idea
to split the now called Low Franconian dialects from Ripurarian and include
them to the Dutch and Low Saxon dialects. It is by Friedrcih Engels (that
very Engels who co-authored "Das Kapital" among others) who argues for
Franconian consciousness apart from German and Dutch from the Panningen line
all the way to the Speyer line. It is available in German under

http://www.mlwerke.de/me/me19/me19_474.htm#Kap_III.

He has got a point just as much as Wenker and Frings have a point. I indeed
believe to divide the northern Rhineland and Limburg into German and Dutch
is almost as impossible as it is to divide Brussels and surroundings into
Wallon and Flemish, both exist next to each other and among each other.

Groeten vun

Helge

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Helge!

Thanks for this very interesting piece! (Not that any of your previous
pieces weren't very interesting as well.)

In even trying to divide or rather classify, especially in an area so
confusingly transitional, I don't think it is expedient to use large
categories that on top of it coincide with national labels: Dutch versus
German. Psychologically alone these categories bring up distortions if you
use them in surveys and proposals -- knee-jerk reactions connected with
national loyalty and historical scars. This would definitely be the case if
you referred to Low Saxon of the Netherlands as a subcategory of "German."
And if you go that far, you might was well consider all Low Franconian
varieties German, which some do, but which is not well received by many.

In discussions about language classification, I would use "Low Franconian"
(or "Low Frankish") instead of "Dutch," and "Low Saxon" for all
Old-Saxon-derived varieties. You might say "Netherlandic" instead of "Low
Franconian," as some do with reference to the cultures of the area that is
now Belgium, the Netherlands and Flemish France.

(I personally use "German" for the varieties other than "Low ...", and I
think there is something to be said for the proposal to consider them "South
Germanic" rather than considering them a group within West Germanic.)

I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The
question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian varieties
from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch"
and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 17:08:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:08:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (04) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Helge *et al.*,

Here's a quick postscript regarding my comments about language variety
labeling, because in rereading it I discovered what might be seen as a
contradiction.

I said that I consider all varieties to the south "German," but I also said
that I advise against using broad, national-sounding labels.

What I really mean is that such labels ought to be avoided in tricky
situations such as that of the meeting place of Low Franconian, Low Saxon
and Central Franconian (incl. Ripuarian) as well as of political borders
(between Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 21:09:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:09:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.23 (05) [E]
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Language politics

> From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]
> He has got a point just as much as Wenker and Frings have a point. I
indeed believe to divide the northern Rhineland and Limburg into German and
Dutch is almost as impossible as it is to divide Brussels and surroundings
into Wallon and Flemish, both exist next to each other and among each other.

Brussels is about 90 perc. French speaking, when including immigrants maybe
95 perc. Company headquartes are internally bilingual or English *during the
week*. The Grand-Place is linguistically international, other area's are
virtually *French-only in the week-end*.

I do my shopping often downtown in the week-end, and while the official
administative indications are bilingual, it is very difficult to find
someone who understands 5 words of Dutch in the smaller shops. This
indicates also something about the quality of language education in the
French system.
Six border municipalities are Flemish "with facilities", but these switched
to French and one often finds quite often monolingual French speakers in the
shops over there. Some examples from my own recent experience, all in *
Kraainem*:
In the "Lunch Garden" they didn't know what "dagschotel" (day's menu) meant,
even when it is advertised bilingually in large capitals "dagschotel - plat
du jour" over the head of the servant,
In the "Brico" they could not explain me where I could find a
"plint" (baseboard) even when it is "plinthe" (with a nazalized "in" though)
in French.
In the "Carrefour" a lady promoting the use of self-scanners (for scanning
one-self while shopping) could not produce a single word of Dutch, even not
for excusing herself for that.
This all in the *Flemish* community with facilities, actually in "Kraainem".

It is a law that once French gets in, it pushes away all other languages.
The French speaking people are very kind though, most of them just speak
French and French only. Activities by Flemish municipalities for protecting
the local culture at the outskirts (Steenokkerzeel, Zaventem, Overijse) are
represented as facistic in the French-language press.

Switching to France:
A couple of weeks ago it was reported in this list that the French
parliament (the Assembl?e G?n?rale) had a sympathetic discussion about
regional languages in Paris. This exceptional cultural laxness has been
condemned and overruled by the French Senat and by the the Acad?mie
fran?aise:
"Le 22 mai, lors de l'examen du projet de r?vision de la Constitution, les *
d?put?s* adoptent un amendement selon lequel *? les langues r?gionales
appartiennent au patrimoine de **la R?publique** ?*. Le 18 juin, les *
s?nateurs* suppriment cette disposition, jug?e par les deux tiers d'entre
eux, et de tous bords, attentatoire ? l'identit? nationale et ? l'unit? de la
R?publique. Ils refusent d'ajouter cette phrase ? l'article 1 de la
Constitution. Seuls le PS, les Verts et quelques UMP ont vot? contre.

Entre temps, les g?rontes de *l'Acad?mie fran?aise* avaient pr?par? le
terrain pour les S?nateurs : ? *L'unit? de **la Nation** est en jeu ?* avait
mis en garde* *Max GALLO !"

quoted from a "communiqu? du Bureau de l'Alliance R?gionale Flandre Artois
Hainaut" dated june 21.

Back to Belgium.

Actually in Belgium one has two layers, the dialects (or regional
languages?) and the administrative languages (Dutch, French and German).

*As for the dialects:*
I'm not aware of municipalities switching recently from Walloon/Picard
to Flemish/Brabantish/Limburgish/Ripuarisch/Moselle-Franconian
incl. Luxembourgish or v.v.
There may be some exceptions, as e.g. Herstappe (*40 *inhabitants, mostly
farmers) in the very South of Belgian Limburg (switched from French to Dutch
as administrative language in 1930).
The only dialectically bilingual/trilingual municipality I'm aware of is*Aubel
*: Walloon in the South, Voeren-Limburgish in the West; Moresnet-Limburgish
in the East (so not really mixed but combining different hamlets); It became
administratively French-only after WWII.
Toponomy indicates some switches happened quite a long time ago, maybe even
before Dutch or French became written languages, as indicate e.g. the names
of Waterloo, Neerheylissem, Dongelberg, Clabecq etc in Walloon Brabant and
Walshoutem, Walsbets etc in Flemish Brabant.
What is happening though nowadays is *loss of dialect*, combined with
*switching
to an administrative language*. That switch may be from a Germanic dialect
to French.

*As for the administrative languages:*
Belgium started virtually with *French only* in 1830 (with unofficial
translations of the law gazetteer). The Flemish movement acquired a position
for Dutch. The South refused to become bilingual, the North passed gradually
over a *bilingual *situation into *monolingual Dutch*.
Criterium for the administrative language of a municipality were the
language censi. Because of these implications, the censi were politically
inflluenced and turned into referenda, with several municipalities turning
from Dutch into French every 10 years. The WWII heritage was used for
feeding anti-germanic feelings at the occasion of the census of 1947 and as
a result some municalities with 10-15 percent of French speaking people in
1930 switched to 80-90 percent French in 1947.
This was particularily true for Northern (Bleyberg-Moresnet) and Central
Altbelgien (Bocholz = Beho), since these areas were (together with
Eupen-Malmedy-Sankt-Vith) annnexed by the Reich in 1940. Inhabitants were
forced to serve in the German army and punished afterwards by the
Belgians for collaboration with the ennemy.
In 1962 a *fixed* borderline for administrative use was imposed.
Northern people adjust (= switch to French) easily to the local language
when moving to the South,
Southern people generally keep their culture when moving to the North and
use all kind of national and international  legal procedures for getting
switches of the local administrative language into French. This is
especially true in municipalities with "facilities", i.e. special provisions
for serving administratively in the other language.
It is like giving the Indians some territory, let the Anglo-Saxons
immigrate, et let them get right in the Supreme court that they have an
equal opportunity right to impose their culture over Indian land.
 Since the international press (including the Germans) mainly reads French
newspapers in Brussels, the Northern people are often internationally
classified as facistic and intolerant.

Additionally to the political pressure, there was a *difficulty of
definition*. The Limburgish speaking *Sippenaken* got alternatively German
and Dutch language parish priests, depending on availability of resources in
the Bishopric of Li?ge.
The 1930 census gave: French 42.77 perc., German 33.85 perc., Dutch 18.15
perc. What they really were speaking was a *Limburgish-Ripuarian* transition
dialect. So they got *French *administrative ruling as democacy requires.
(data quoted from Remouchamps, Carte syst?matique de la Wallonie, p. 211-269
+ large map, in Bulletin de la Commission Royale de Toponymie &
Dialectologie, vol. IX, 1935)

Actually it is *or *French* or* Dutch. History has proven that *mixed
situations leads to French only* after less than 2 generations.

The positive thing. Walloon politicians started acquiring some Dutch since
10-15 years and are becoming able to say a few things in Dutch on Flemish
TV. The effect is that Dutch is no longer dealt with as a farmer's language.
Quite some French-language speakers regret that they cannot speak the first
language of this country. The most frustrating thing for me is seeing on
TV interviews of teachers of Dutch in the French system. It's often
difficult to understand what language they are speaking. So quite some
non-Dutch speakers are sending their kids to schools of the Flemish network
in Brussels, pushing Flemish kids often into a minority position in their
own school.

Btw there is a large German school in Wezembeek-Oppem, a Flemish outskirt
municipality with facilities, momentarily with virtually French-only in the
streets:
http://www.dsbruessel.be/

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks for all that, Roger.

Not much of a surprise in the French news, I'm afraid.

As for Belgium, aren't French and Dutch mandatory school subjects all over
the country and, if not, ought they not be? While this may not make much of
a difference among those that are adults now, it would make a difference in
the future.

The situation would then be as in Norway, where schooling in (majority)
Dano-Norwegian and (minority) Neo-Norwegian is mandatory for all, so that
there's one non-native national language to be learned by everyone.
Similarly, unless it has changed lately, all Fins have some schooling in
Finnish and Swedish, the two national languages.

In the case of the German-speaking area of Belgium this would mean
*two*national languages to be learned non-natively, just as Sami
people of Norway
and Finland have to learn Finnish and Swedish non-natively. In these cases I
would hope to see a regional educational requirement that makes German
mandatory for everyone in that part of Belgium and Sami mandatory for
everyone living in regions in which Sami is official. Similarly, both
Frisian and Dutch ought to be required of everyone living in *Frysl?n and in
officially Frisian-speaking areas of Groningen.

At the same time, people ought to be educated away from seeing this as a
burden toward seeing it as a privilege and a useful extra skill. This could
be enhanced by paying workers a language bonus if they are conversant in
another national language, and another one for English if this is relevant.
(This is done for instance in California where you go up one rung on the pay
scale if you can use Spanish in working with the public, in relevant places
also for predominant immigrant languages such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Khmer,
Lao, Russian, Somali, Amharic or Tigrinya.)

Of course, then there is the legal element. Businesses that advertise
themselves as offering bilingual French and Dutch (or trilingual with
English added) service could be reported, sued and/or fined for false
advertising if they don't deliver what they advertise. It can be argued that
this advertising entices certain customers who then discover that the
advertised service is not available, as was the case in a couple of your
experiences.

If Brussels is officially French and Dutch speaking there has to be some
sort of reenforcement and incentive, or else you might as well bite the
bullet and make it officially French speaking

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 23 21:11:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:11:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JUN.2008.141128.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]

Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com> wrote that

> It is by Friedrcih Engels (that very Engels who co-authored "Das Kapital"
> among others) who


Friedrich Engels, while he co-authored a number of works - including the
pamphlet "Communist Maifesto" -- with Karl Marx, who I believe is the sole
author of Das Kapital. And compared with whom I believe (in my humble
literary / aesthetic opinion) Engels is a MUCH lesser writer. ... But maybe
a better linguist! (He certainly would have to be a better linguist
than a shared political grandson, Josef Dzhugashvili aka Stalin, whose
lingistic works were almost mandatory citations in all linguistic works
produced in the Soviet Union for 25 years.

MWM || ??? || ???? || ???? || ???? || ????
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
????? ?????? (??.??.??.)
???????? ?????????
????? ???????? (????? )
++++++++++++++++
??????(?????)
????????????????
????(????)????
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 14:16:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:16:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.071640.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.23 (02) [E]

Hi all

Hugo, I've been considering walking the el Camino de Santiago now for a few
years and look forward to your piece on the Jacobspad.

Elsie

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 14:21:38 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:21:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.24 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.072138.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.23 (05) [E]

Dear Roger,

I am very aware of the complex situation in and around Brussels and I fully
comprehend the Flemsih point of view because as Low Saxon speakers with a
Danish backround my family went through the same historical discrimination
at the hands of the standart German language as the Flemish experienced at
the hands of the French speakers. I have read articles in e.g. English
newspapers portraying the Flemish municipalities around Brussels as
Flemsish-chauvinist because of the language restrictions (agreed by both
Flemings and Wallons) but I wonder what they would say if more and more
French speakers would move to Dover and surroundings who refuse to learn any
English and setting up their own communities apart from the rest. Then
suddenly the same newspapers will cry "foul"....

At the weekend I had a consultative meeting with one of the representatives
of the Danish and Frisian party in Sleswick-Holsten (to use the previous
English name for that very state here which resembles also much more the Low
Saxon and Frisian version of the state name then the German name often
copied by English texts these days) discussing plans over a Light Rail
network and we held the whole meeting in Low Saxon although we could have
chosen Danish or German, too. But it seemed more natural to us to use one of
our Regional languages and certainly not German. However, later I thought
once again we proofed that there is no such thing as educated and peasant
languages, we discussed complex scientific issues and we never had the
feeling we where lacking expressions, if no native word existed for an
expression we simply imported the Danish, German, Latin or English one but
that never altered the character of our language. People who describe any
language as uneducated simply discriminate on a big scale, also often
against their own forefathers who probably spoke one of those peasant
languages themselves at one point....

Groeten vun

Helge

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 14:23:43 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:23:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.24 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.072343.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]

Concerning the pronunciation of place names in the Rhinland area (incl. Low
Franconian) please also check:

http://www.genealogienetz.de/vereine/wgff/aachen/Rheinische_Ortsnamen_in_aelterer_Orthographie.pdf

A few more place-names could be added as e.g Reuschenberg near Neuss which
is locally "R?scheberch" and Neuss itself might belong to this group because
it is locally pronounced "N??ss", however the written Dutch form was
actually "Nuys" as in "Van Nuys" in Los Angeles. Kleinenbroich is actually
"Kleenebr?k" in the local dialect.

Helge
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 15:51:02 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:51:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Projects" 2008.06.24 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.085102.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Projects

Dear Lowlanders,

Our Toms and I have been active.

In our Gallery (http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/), Tom Carty (n? Tomas O'
Carthaigh mar a thugtar air) added another one of his poems in Irish ("Amach
a Th?inig Siad") and English ("Out They Came"), and I added my German ("Sie
kamen hervor") and Low Saxon ("V?r T??g kemen se") translations to it. Other
poems may follow. So watch that space!

Specifically for the new history presentation (
http://lowlands-l.net/history/), Tom Mc Rae added a preface to his guided
tour through Edinburgh. I dare say together they make a fine contribution
and a useful guide to that lovely city through a native son's eyes. No
wonder this is one of our most visited pages, visited from all corners of
the world. Like our Andrys (who recently added a Frysl?n travel description
to our Travel presentation: http://lowlands-l.net/travels/), Tom put his
impressions during a visit to his native stomping ground to good use by
sharing some of it with the world.

As the saying goes: "Absence makes the heart grow fonder." Emigrants,
including but not limited to those that left for other countries, tend to
count among the most appreciative people when it comes to their native
places, cultures and languages, especially when they are at a time of life
when homecoming is the general theme for them. Now this would be a great
topic for artistic outlets!

I am preparing our traditions presentation, a repository for all sorts of
things under the topics "folk" and "traditional" with a Lowlands focus. *All
* of us have something to contribute to this. For instance, if you are not a
Lowlander by birth, you could write about your first encounter with and
perception of anything traditionally Lowlandic, can share what you have
learned. Say, for instance, you are Brazilian or Japanese or Arabic or
Russian; you could share your observations, impressions and reactions
regarding Lowlands traditions with your people in your languages in your own
languages.

I know that lots and lots of people out there are interested in this sort of
thing. So please think about it and share it under this rubric. Just send it
to me. If you are not sure, just write to me and consult with me. If you
need help I might be able to hook you up with the right persons.

This applies to all our presentations published so far:

   - *Anniversary*
   http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/
   - *Travels*
   http://lowlands-l.net/travels/
   - *Gallery*
   http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/
   - *Beyond the Pale*
   http://lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/
   - *Water under The Bridge*
   http://lowlands-l.net/history/

Please bear in mind that the number of daily visits to these presentations
keeps on growing. Visitors truly come from all over the world, and they
learn about our areas of interest.

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 21:57:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:57:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.24 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.145749.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.06.24 (02) [E]

The Flemish-Brabantish municipalities at the outskirt of Brussels do their
best for preserving the use of the Dutch-language. Social threath (called
the Brussels expansion "stain") comes from internal immigrants, mainly
French speaking people from Wallonia and Brussels, seeking a place to live
close to the capital, but not downtown nor in the appartment blocs of the
agglomeration.

One of the activities of my municipality Steenokkerzeel is organizing
courses of Dutch for non-Dutch speakers.
Some illustrations from the municipal quarterly magazine I got in today
("Den Beiaard", Zomer 2008, Vlaamse Gemeente Steenokkerzeel)

- publicity in Dutch, French and English for the course:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/st2.jpg

- a brief report of the closure of past schoolyear:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/st1.jpg

I think the main thing is not the ruling by law. The main thing is
motivating people for recognizing the benefits and investing in the
efforts. Just this: one gets a dozen of people motivated, but one doesn't
reach hundreds of others.

Regards,
Roger

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 24 21:59:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:59:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.06.24 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.145944.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.24 (03) [E]

Was the interactive site "Forvo" already known here? It's about
pronouncing words by native speakers of all kind of languages

http://www.forvo.com/

Ingmar

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 25 02:29:13 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:29:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.24 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JUN.2008.192913.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.23 (02) [E]

To: Hugo
From: Andrys
Subject: History

Hey Hugo

> Fred and Andrys as well as others might like to know that there is now
> an official starting point for the Camino de Santiago in Groningen -
> apparently recently opened (inaugurated) by Cardinal Simonis. You can
> see details of it on www.jacobspad.nl <http://www.jacobspad.nl/>,
> I completed the Camino between St Jean de Pied de Port and Santiago at
> the end of April and from there went to the Netherlands and walked for
> about 10 days following the Wad en Wierdenpad to Nieuwe Schans and then
> a further 80km or so of the Noaberspad along the German/Dutch border.

Thanks for that -  brilliant stuff. I'm still enamoured with starting in
Sint Jacobi, if only for the name, but I guess all roads lead to Santiago!
And according to De Stichting Jabikspad Fryslan (www.jabikspaad.nl/), it is
the (or maybe an) official Dutch route. As a compromise, I wonder if we
could blaze a trail between Uithuizen and Zwarte Haan, via Lauwersoog and
Pieterburen? A superb part of the world to traipse around in, don't you
agree?

Congrats on your major hikes in Spain and The Netherlands. Impressive stuff,
both parts. The Dollard - I'm intending to have a look around there in
September. You've been inspirational, Hugo.

Cheers, Andrys

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 25 21:12:47 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:12:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JUN.2008.141247.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.21 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Hi, Sandy!
>
> This is all interesting stuff. You wrote about German signing for
> "toilet":
>
>    o    shaking a telephone receiver at the side of the head while
> mouthing "shhh" (this strikes us British as a very strange and
> intriguing sign indeed!);
>
> My immediate reaction to this description was that it means "Someone
> is calling me (on the phone) ... but not really, you know."  Of
> course, we need to remind the youngsters among us that all telephones
> used to have landlines and were in certain rooms of houses (typically
> hallways), so that people usually had to leave to make or receive
> calls. The shaking receiver sign may mean "ringing telephone". The
> "shhh" sign may be a classifier for "taboo replacement" (saying it in
> place of something that ought not be said). I have no idea if any of
> this is factual. All I can say is that the sign didn't seem strange to
> me when I read your description. It would be interesting to see if the
> "shhh" sign is used for other euphemisms as well.

You have to be careful, of course, as there's never any guarantee in
sign languages that a sign or facial expression means what it looks
like, unless you're interpreting it through the grammar of the sign
language.

I don't know what the "shhh" mouthing means in DGS (or ASL either). In
BSL it expresses something like the idea of existence. For example,
there's the sign for "there". If you add to this the "shhh" mouthing, it
means something like "it was actually there".

But sometimes the combination doesn't work in a way that's clear to me.
For example, there's the BSL sign for "wait". Sign this with the "shhh"
classifier and it means "not yet". I'm not sure I see how "wait" +
"exists" comes to mean "not yet": perhaps it's purely idiomatic.

I'm not sure how interesting this is to other Lowlanders, but if you
feel like having a bit of a think, then here's some more semantic
data...

Some mouthings seem to just go with particular signs, but other typical
concepts that can be added to a wide range of signs by particular
mouthings in BSL are "intense", "unsatisfactory" and "as normal". This
is without getting into simultaneous qualifiers that can be added by
cheeks, eyes, and suchlike.

Those three, executed simultaneously with a hand sign result in meanings
like:

walk + as normal = just walking along minding my own business
drive + as normal = driving along without a care in the world

poor thing + unsatisfactory = patronising
a small amount + unsatisfactory = a disappointing amount
to clean + unsatisfactory = to clean up something revolting
mistake + intense = just have to put up with it
work + intense = very intense, demanding work
recently + intense = just a moment ago
expect + intense = expecting any minute now

This is of course just one of the things that go up to explaining the
question, often asked by non-signers, of how sign language interpreters
seem to be able to interpret so many spoken words with so few signs.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 25 22:22:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:22:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Marcus wrote the other day:

Denn dor m??t wi vun utgahn, dat Selbstbild h?ngt kuum vun de Realit?t af.
Wat een gl??vt, wat een is. W?llt man blot an de L??d ut Pomerode in
Brasilien denken. De kemen ut Pommern. Aver in Brasilien weren se mank de
Brasilianers de 'D??tschen'. Un 'D??tsche' fiert Oktoberfest, dat weet doch
de ganze Welt. Un so hebbt de L??d ut Pomerode anfungen, Oktoberfest to
fiern. Ok wenn dat in Pommern wohrschienlich bet op den h?digen Dag noch
keen Oktoberfest geven hett.

Essentially, he says that self-identification of enclaves of transplanted
ethnic minorities often changes due to internalizing or owning initially
alien broad, stereotypical expectations. He gives the adaptation of the
people of Pomerode in Brazil to stereotypical "German," actually Bavarian,
symbolism such as celebrating Oktoberfest, which does not belong to the
traditional North German culture of their Pomeranian ancestors.

This is most certainly true. In English-speaking countries outside Europe
this can be seen in people with Scottish heritage, mostly of Lowlands
heritage, celebrating G?idhealtachd culture, thus Highlands culture. Most of
them, like most people of non-Scottish backgrounds, aren't the wiser,
assuming that anything Gaelic is more Scottish than anything else, because
it's Celtic (even though Gaelic is not the original Celtic language of
Scotland).

Much of this phenomenon has to do with the general practice of ignoring
regional features while thinking only in terms of countries. American media
created and still perpetuate the association of "German" with "Bavarian,"
and this has spread around the world. Anyone from Germany is thus expected
to be some type of Bavarian. (I wish I had a dollar for every time I was
asked what I was planning to do for Oktoberfest and for Fasching, and people
quickly change the topic when I explain that those are not part of my
heritage. No details please!) In the process of culture loss, descendants of
immigrants from Germany, *anywhere* in Germany, acquire these false cultural
attributes if they feel inclined to do what they think is preserving their
heritage. Much of this has to do with their parents and grandparents not
teaching them better and/or the local community of immigrants from their
ancestral region being too small or being non-assertive.

This is what typically happens in the case of Low Saxon language and
culture, unless they are predominant in an area (such as in some communities
in the US Midwest). People from Northern Germany and from the Eastern
Netherlands typically integrate into the German and Dutch immigrant
communities respectively, and they tend to join German and Dutch
associations respectively, if they join any. Since they are bilingual to
begin with, they typically lose their Low Saxon proficiency with the next
generation, and their ancestral culture is rarely or never featured in any
activities. People of North German background then start wearing *Lederhosen
* and *Dirndl*, dancing the *Schuhplattler *and celebrating Oktoberfest.

The few Low Saxon clubs that there are are typically sub-organizations of
German associations. While their members came from Germany or are
descendants of such, too close an association with, and certainly
integration in German associations seems to be the beginning of the end.
Before you know it, Bayuvarianization or at least loss of Low Saxon heritage
is a *fait accompli*. I know of such subordinate associations in two
American cities, and hardly any member can actually speak or even read Low
Saxon, and some wouldn't know *Matjes* from *Wei?wurst *if their lives
depended on it.

Preservation thus seems to require separation (which does not mean that
people can't be members of both associations.) In my opinion, it would make
a lot more sense if Low Saxon speakers from Germany and the Netherlands and
their descendants banded together. Among other things, this is the result of
thinking in terms of countries instead of linguistic and cultural regions
when it comes to minorities. When it comes to majorities, however,
international associations are commonplace, such as German, Austrian and
Swiss immigrants coming together in German language associations. Why can't
the same be done in cases of languages that do not have national status?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 25 23:21:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:21:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JUN.2008.162123.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: [LLL] Morphology? Lexicology? Semantics?

 Hei alle sammen (to borrow from another list I'm on [Sorry Reinhard])

Being that I am a linguistics-minded person, I've always wondered about the
semantic considerations and origins of the following scenarios:

Two people are walking down a street. One sees that a house finch has been
injured. This person says:

"Poor little bird(ie)!"

The other says:

"that's quite a blow for such a small bird."

Being that, at least in Norwegian, I've seen evidence of both adjectives
being present in Germanic languages, what's the origin of the terms small
and little? Where did we get the semantic differences between the so-called
poor, defenseless little ones and the simple size of the small ones?
Ben

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 14:08:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:08:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (01) [E/LS]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Marcus wrote the other day:
>
> Denn dor m??t wi vun utgahn, dat Selbstbild h?ngt kuum vun de Realit?t af.
> Wat een gl??vt, wat een is. W?llt man blot an de L??d ut Pomerode in
> Brasilien denken. De kemen ut Pommern. Aver in Brasilien weren se mank de
> Brasilianers de 'D??tschen'. Un 'D??tsche' fiert Oktoberfest, dat weet doch
> de ganze Welt. Un so hebbt de L??d ut Pomerode anfungen, Oktoberfest to
> fiern. Ok wenn dat in Pommern wohrschienlich bet op den h?digen Dag noch
> keen Oktoberfest geven hett.
>
> Essentially, he says that self-identification of enclaves of transplanted
> ethnic minorities often changes due to internalizing or owning initially
> alien broad, stereotypical expectations.
>
It's extreme in transplanted minorities, but it's true for non-transplanted,
too, as I said in that post. Where I am living, you can go to Oktoberfest
the next village (Bavarian tradition), or you can choose to go to Fasching
(Bavarian again) or to Karneval (Rhenish tradition).  But try asking anybody
about Faslom. Most won't know. Faslom is the Northern German counterpart of
Fasching/Fasnacht/Karneval/Carnival. As far as I know, it is (or was
traditionally) spread over most of the Low Saxon language area. Some
villages still have Faslom, but most have lost it and few people from the
villages that lost it will know about it. Well, this loss is partly cause of
stereotypes, but mostly cause of selectiveness in the media. You are
celebrating the festivities you know. Karneval, Fasching and Oktoberfest are
covered by the media, Faslom is not. An even more annoying example is
Halloween. Children in Germany are celebrating Halloween. The media are
pushing it. We've got dozens of special days, where children can go from
door to door and get sweets, in German folklore. New Year's day, St.
Martin's day and many others, and Faslom does know going from door to door
too (well, traditionally it's eggs and Wurst for Faslom and not sweets). But
still the old customs get lost and this is compensated with American
culture.

My original point was the people of Brandenburg not keeping up their Low
Saxon heritage, cause they got told (not explicitly told, but implicitly
they adopted the message) they were "Ossis", people from Eastern Germany.
This, together with additional influence from the 3.5 million people city
Berlin, made them change their Mark-Brandenburgian language and identity to
a mixture of "outskirts of Berlin" and "German Democratic Republic" language
and identity. This is a mixture of "country thinking" and "cultural erosion
through media" (national media of the former GDR, actually). But it's not
always "country thinking" and media influence. Another example from the Low
Saxon region: The word "Moin". It was originally a greeting formula from
Frisia. I am not sure, where it originated, in Eastern or in Northern
Frisia. It is common in both Eastern Friesland plus surrounding areas and in
Schleswig-Holstein [where Northern Friesland is situated], but less so in
the area between those areas (which are not Frisian). I guess it first
spread under the Frisians and than went on to spread to the surrounding "Low
Saxon/Northern German" areas. I am living in the area between Northern and
Eastern Friesland. Saying "Moin" is quite common here. But not as common as
in Schleswig-Holstein and in the Eastern Friesland/Oldenburg area. For
example in Oldenburg or Kiel you would say "Moin" when entering a shop and
nobody would mind. In my area area you can say "Moin" too, but it would be
more common to say "Guten Tag" and if you say "Moin" the shopman won't say
anything, but at least he will notice that you used another greeting formula
than the standard one. (A Bavarian shopman maybe will react with "Woas
willst, du Sauprei?!?" ;-) ) In less formal situations (well, a visit in the
shop is not _that_ formal, but at least more formal than speaking with
people you know well), "Moin" is very common here too. It wasn't in earlier
times. In the old times (when Low Saxon was the language of the people and
of all people) the people said "Goden Dag" (or "Go'n Dag").
"Moin" didn't spread through any national attitude and not through media
(some media helped, but they weren't the driving force as with Halloween),
"Moin" was spread by cultural identity. The Northern identity. It's an weak
identity when compared to the national identity, but it exists. It's based
on common culture and common language of Northern Germany (but it's not like
many people were aware of this, it's mostly a diffuse identity). It's much
stronger at the coast than in the Southern parts of  Northern Germany. And I
think this Northern identity is responsible for the relatively good standing
of Low Saxon at the coast when compared to the South (relatively, in
absolute terms both Northern and Southern Low Saxon do very bad in
maintaining currency compared to Southern German dialects, my explanation
for this is, that Low Saxon is so different from Standard German, that it
doesn't allows to switch between "deep dialect" and "standard language"
steplessly. Bavarians can use words, spellings and grammatical constructions
more distant or less distant from the standard. Bavarian and Standard German
are able to be combined. If you combine Low Saxon and the Standard language,
it doesn't feel right. You have to use the one or the other, but cannot
combine both. Therefore the people have to learn two separate language
instead of only two registers of one language. And from reasons of
efficiency [why learn two languages, when one is enough to master all
situations?] they drop Low Saxon. Other languages, like Breton or Welsh
languages, do better, despite too being "not necessary", cause they have a
"language of its own" identity bonus. Low Saxon doesn't get this bonus,
cause the people get told, it is a dialect only. So, Low Saxon is trapped
between "too far apart from German to coexist as variants of one language"
and "too close to be fully recognized". [Well, Brandenburg Low Saxon and the
Berlin regiolect were able to be combined and that was even more deadly for
the dialect, so I could be wrong.]).
Back to the Northern identity: The Northern identity manifests in memes like
"Fischk?ppe" (Northerners being called, but also calling themselves "fish
heads"), or a "Rock attitude" (the Rocker subculture and Heavy Metal are
more widespread in Northern Germany than in the south of Germany, as far as
I could observe this). In metal and Rock Northern Germany has much in common
with Scandinavia. They (or "We") even identify them/our-selves with the
Vikings. Or think of Hip Hop bands like Fettes Brot or Fischmob performing
songs in Low Saxon. Like the song "Nordisch by nature". Northern identity
pure. The band Torfrock even combines Viking rock and Low Saxon. This
Northern identity is my hope (actually my only hope) for the future of Low
Saxon. If we could place Low Saxon in the media and apply some coolness to
it, there is a chance, that the carriers of the Northern identity will
re-adopt Low Saxon as an expression of their Northern identity.
Identity is the key. Switzerland is the best example. Everywhere in Germany
the dialects are declining. The latest study of the Gesellschaft f?r
deutsche Sprache speaks of 48 % of the Germans using dialect (they published
no numbers for single regions, but the number in the North obviously is much
lower). In Switzerland, 93 % are using dialect. It only depends on the
attitude which is shown towards "using dialect". The Swiss look on dialect
as an expression of their Swiss national  identity.
Combine the Northern identity with mass media (TV is the most important,
cause it is an "lean back medium". You have to actively _decide_ to consume
print, but you only have to lean back to consume TV. Therefore TV has the
most impact on society.) and there is a chance to save Low Saxon. Without
that, Low Saxon will disappear.

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 14:10:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:10:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JUN.2008.071040.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.25 (03) [E]

My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.

In the Scandinavian North Germanic languages the usage of litt etc. and
sm? is like in English.
In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
word for both little and small.

It looks like the difference between much and many.
In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.

So here too, Scandinavian may have at least encouraged the English usage.

Ingmar

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: [LLL] Morphology? Lexicology? Semantics?

 Hei alle sammen (to borrow from another list I'm on [Sorry Reinhard])

Being that I am a linguistics-minded person, I've always wondered about the
semantic considerations and origins of the following scenarios:

Two people are walking down a street. One sees that a house finch has been
injured. This person says:

"Poor little bird(ie)!"

The other says:

"that's quite a blow for such a small bird."

Being that, at least in Norwegian, I've seen evidence of both adjectives
being present in Germanic languages, what's the origin of the terms small
and little? Where did we get the semantic differences between the so-called
poor, defenseless little ones and the simple size of the small ones?
Ben
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 15:33:04 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:33:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.26 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JUN.2008.083304.0700.>

=======================================================================

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]

What is that something to be said for calling German etc. "South Germanic"
instead of West Germanic?

I can imagine a few things myself of course: the High German consonant
shift, dative and accusative pronouns (mir-mich), pronouns ending in -r
(er, wir, ihr), a part of lexicon, e.a.

But what we should not forget is that present day German is much closer
related to Dutch and Low Saxon than English is. A Dutchman can understand
German without previous learning, so can a Low Saxon, but they don't have
a clue when an Englishman is speaking (or writing) without having learned
his language first.
It would rather be a division between Continental West Germanic, including
German, and Insular West Germanic, including English.

So I wonder whether we should stick to relations that existed maybe 1000
or more years ago to classify these languages, Reinhard.

Ingmar

Reinhard:

(I personally use "German" for the varieties other than "Low ...", and I
think there is something to be said for the proposal to consider
them "South
Germanic" rather than considering them a group within West Germanic.)

I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The
question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian varieties
from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch"
and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Projects

Ingmar,

Sure you can classify languages in several ways and at various points in
time, taking into account also mutual influences. A different approach might
put English and French into one pot because of strong mutual influences,
never mind that they belong to different sub-families. Later time layers,
however, don't change the fact that there are longstanding relationships
between the "Lowlands" languages that these days most people are not made
aware of, and that's what we're about here. Furthermore, we're concerned
about longstanding common cultural and identity traits and histories of
interaction that are "typically" Lowlandic, while forums that paint with
larger brushes include not only German but also the North Germanic sphere,
as do you in constructing Middelsprake.

A Dutchman can understand
German without previous learning, so can a Low Saxon,

I doubt the "without previously learning" part. Exposure is a type of
learning situation, and people in the Netherlands and Northern Belgium are
regularly exposed to German, alone through the media. Low Saxon speakers in
Germany are of course brought up with German (as Scots speakers are brought
up with English). However, it doesn't work like that the other way around.
Most German speakers without Afrikaans, Dutch and Low Saxon exposure
understand next to nothing when Afrikaans or Dutch are spoken, and the more
resourceful among them will figure out a bit from written Afrikaans or
Dutch. They understand a bit more of Low Saxon of Germany, but mostly
because of Germanization, especially in highly Germanized varieties these
days. They have a much harder time with authentically written and spoken Low
Saxon. North Germans with some Low Saxon exposure understand Afrikaans and
Dutch better, those with more exposure or knowledge understand a lot more
and need just a bit of adjustment time to begin understanding spoken
Afrikaans and Dutch. Common learning of English has facilitated much of
this. It equips southern speakers of German for understanding otherwise
incomprehensible basic Afrikaans, Dutch and Low Saxon words such as
*later*("later") and
*redig* ("ready") in context. But then there are even greater multitudes of
false friends that lead to misunderstanding of idiomatic expressions.

Ingmar, as you know, some people pick up other languages more easily than
others. Much of it has to do with attitude, level of interest, and
experience. For such people formal studies are not necessary to acquire
listening and reading comprehension. You and I obviously belong to that
minority, for we are able to pick up comprehension skills even across
language group and family lines. I can understand Spanish (Castilian) well
enough to follow Spanish language TV talk shows, but I've never had a formal
Spanish lesson in my life. I had a few (bad) formal European Portuguese
classes and lived in a "Portuguese street" (full of immigrants from Madeira)
in Australia. This allowed me to "figure out" Castilian, Catalan and
Galician with ease, and in the meantime exposure has provided me with at
least some Spanish writing and speaking skills. Similarly, I have had two
years of university-level Russian, and this allows me to "figure out" other
Slavic languages. As I said, this has to do with my interest level and
experience, which provide me with confidence. I am sure it's the same in
your case. Furthermore, when I was a kid I started understanding English
very quickly, more quickly than the rest of my class, and this was mostly
because I immediately saw the connections with Low Saxon and adjusted my
approach accordingly, whereas my classmates approached it from a purely
German angle, aided by our teachers' lack of Low Saxon skills.

However, these "abilities" should not fool us into assuming that other
people can do the same, for they can't. We should not be led to make
generalizing statements on this basis. I have done informal tests with
interested South Germans and Austrians (all of them with good English
skills). They could only follow simple Low Saxon sentences if I pronounced
them very, very slowly, and even then they frequently misunderstood
something in them. When I did the same with Dutch, they understood less but
got the general gist. And I'm only talking about simple sentences. I bet you
you even would understand very little if someone spoke to you in authentic
Bavarian German (in which I include non-Alemannic dialects of Austria and
Northern Italy), less even in authentic Alemannic. They all agreed that they
would have understood even less had they not had any knowledge of English.
The average German has little exposure to Dutch and understands little
Dutch, while the average Netherlander and North Belgian has a lot of
exposure to German and understands a lot of German. However, there was one
person among them that had a much easier time. According to what she told
me, this was because she paid more attention to the English angle.
Furthermore, she was the only one who had taken some basic linguistics
classes, including an introductory phonology class in which sound shifts
were covered fairly intensively. So this seems to have enhanced here
analytical skills.

My point is that, when we talk about mutual comprehensibility we need to
make a distinction between inherent and acquired features, and we must be
aware that "learning" includes not only formal education but mere exposure
as well.

Again: you can use different types of language typology and approaches. The
one we use here is largely historically based, in great part because we deal
with history and traditional culture as well. This as well as typology is a
matter of approach.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 15:50:45 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:50:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (04) [E]
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From: JRodenburg at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]

I know of such subordinate associations in two American cities, and hardly
any member can actually speak or even read Low Saxon, and some wouldn't know
*Matjes* from *Wei?wurst *if their lives depended on it.


Ron, what cities are these? Do the clubs have web sites? Would be another
place to start to "remember" our north German heritage. John

Viele Gr??e aus Illinois
John Rodenburg
Rodenburg (Tarmstedt, Amt Rotenburg (W?mme), Hannover)
Brunkhorst (Stemmen, Amt Rotenburg (W?mme), Hannover)
Werner (Langen, Hesse-Darmstadt),
Steinke (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
Krause (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
Schr?der (Warsow, Mecklenburg-Schwerin),
Meyer (Eitzendorf, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Hinkeldey (Wechold, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Zum Mallen (Schierholz, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
R?hrdanz (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)

----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]

Leve Ron,

I can really imagine the sterotype perceptions you encounter in North
America, I had the same experience when I spend half a year travelling in
North America many years ago, by checking my address or passport they all
asked me about the beerfest, I simply didn't know what they were talking
about, explaining that there is plenty of beer in Northern Germany but no
particular fest didn't really help...I quickly realized what my family was
on about by proclaiming themselfs as rather Danish than German because
Sleswick-Holsten resembles by landscape, traditions and culture Denmark a
lot more than Bavaria with what I was being associated. So after
experiencing this misconception too frequently I told people (when asked
about my home) that I am from the border of Denmark and Germany, that
derailed them immediatly...Tonight we will have a football game where Spain
vs. Russia and if Spain would win the stereotype conception is that the
whole country will go wild, but I am afraid that celebrations in Donostia
and Girona will be a lot more muted, if any at all....the same will probably
valid for Grozny, Kyzyl or Sortavala in case Russia wins...

Groeten,

Helge

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Culture

Thanks a lot, John and Helge.

John, I don't really want to name the associations publicly for "political"
or rather "diplomatic" reasons, because this issue comes with some baggage.

I quite agree with you, Helge. Once in a while I have to mention with
connection with the Netherlands to make Americans, Canadians and Australians
understand. But all but a few seem to consider that too much confusing
detail.  It's easier to deal with country-based stereotypes. It's not as
though Europeans don't have the same tendency. The idea(l) of "one country,
one ethnicity, one language" is still very much alive and kicking about
happily.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: By the way, I have to apologize to whoever I once told that Helge was
only a men's name. Recently I came across it as a German woman's name. Not
that gender *really *matters, but sometimes one wants to know which is
applicable: "he" or "she". ;-)
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 19:05:49 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:05:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.26 (05) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JUN.2008.120549.0700.>

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

Beste allen,

In oude Oostendse teksten vind ik zowel "cleene" (klein) als "smal".
Voorbeeld: "de smalle zeesteden" = de kleine zeesteden.

Nu zijn in het Oostends (en in het Nederlands) "klein" (little) en "smal"
(narrow).
Wat smal is, doet natuurlijk aan klein denken.
De Oostendse uitspraak is "smol" (net als bolke, kolk, volke ... voor balk,
kalk, valk ...).
Voor "veel" kennen we "vele" en "menig" (many). "Enig" beantwoordt dan aan
"any".

Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

 Beste Ingmar,

Du schreyvst:

> My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
> originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.
> In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
> and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
> word for both little and small.
I'm not sure about a Scandinavian influence here, because in our Low Saxon
you may use 'small' the same way like in English. And in Standard German we
use terms like e.g. 'schmale Kost', meaning E 'slender diet'= 'small meal'.

> It looks like the difference between much and many.
> In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
> German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.
What about Standard German '(eine) ganze Menge', meaning both 'much' and
'many'?

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

"Little" is not a Scandinavian loan. It goes back to Old English *l?tel* ~ *
lytel*, cf. Old Saxon *luttil*, Old German *luzzil* (> dialect. *l?tzel*),
Middle Dutch *luttel* (> *luttel*), Old Norse *l?tell*, Gothic *leitils* <
Germanic **l?tilo*. This is a diminutive form based on Old English
*l?t*(cf. Old Saxon
*lut* >  Modern *l**?tt*, cf. Scandinavian *l?tt* < Germanic **lut ~ *l?t*)
which gave dialectical English *lite* 'small', 'insignificant'. Another
derivation with the meaning 'small' are Old Saxon *luttik* (> *l**?ttig*),
Old Frisian *littich* and Old German *luzz?g.*

My theory is that, if not semantically intended from the outset, the
diminutive form favored the semantic inclusion of "cuteness" (e.g., "the
(cute/poor) little bird" vs "the small bird" = "small in size").
"Little-ness" tends to be associated with vulnerability, hence appealing to
one's protector instinct with "cuteness," while "small" refers to size
without this emotional appeal. "Little" is therefore often associated with
"poor" in the sense of "pitiable." In "poor", semantic inclusion of
"destitute" and "deprived" and in extension "pitiable" seems to have come
with importation of Norman *pover ~ pore ~ pour ~ povere ~ poevere ~ puvre*,
since all Romance cognates can be used in the sense of "pitiable" as well,
just as they do the Germanic equivalents.

*Klein* for 'small' and 'little' is normal in Dutch and German. There are
some Low Saxon dialects that use *kleen* [kl???n] ~ *klein* [kla??n], but
most use *l**?tt* [l?t]. In all three languages you can use *arm* the same
way as you use "poor", i.e. with the extended sense of 'pitiable'. (In the
very north, Low Saxon *Stackel* can be used for 'pitiable person', probably
derived from Jutish *stakkel*, related to the adjective
*stakkels*'pitiable', possibly derived from an old sense of "cripple"
or perhaps
"toddler" = "someone that staggers about").

In some Low Saxon dialects you can use *pover* strictly in the sense of
'poor' = 'indigent'. This is a French loan, a more recent one than English
"poor". Note that this can *not* be used in the sense of 'pitiable'.

English "small" is related to German *schmal* and Low Saxon *smaal*, both
usually meaning 'narrow' but, as Jonny points out above, 'small' in some
idiomatic expressions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 19:24:44 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:24:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JUN.2008.122444.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Anyone from Germany is thus expected to be some type of Bavarian. (I wish I
had a dollar for every time I was asked what I was planning to do for
Oktoberfest and for Fasching, and people quickly change the topic when I
explain that those are not part of my heritage.

Ron and All;

It's not part of my heritage either, but I still like Oktoberfests.  They're
even bigger in Australia.  The local German Association might organise them
but the majority of people enjoying the day understand "Bier" and
"Bratwurst", and that's about it. Including many members of the German
Association!

For most non-Germans, it isn't a cultural issue, it's a beer, food and
entertainment issue.  If you introduce them to a Saxon beer-drinking
occasion, they'll be in to that too.

Paul Finlow-Bates
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Culture

Hi, Paul!

Of course Northerners don't necessarily *boycott* Oktoberfest and Fasching,
and, as you said, some people will attend *any* function that has boozing as
its main pursuit. What we are talking about here is resentment or rejection
of being included in a stereotype based on a culture not one's own.

I'm sure there are some English people (however few they may be ... ;-) )
that go out of their way to eat haggis and wear kilts (well, at least the
male royals do for symbolic reasons). That's one thing. It's another thing
if you move to an "exotic" country and people expect you to attend Burns
Nicht and wear a kilt while piping in the haggis.

Marcus, how about writing a piece about Low Saxon Faslom for the new
"Traditions" presentation? I did not grow up with it and wonder if it
belongs mainly to Roman Catholic communities. I take it the name *Falsom* is
related to *Fastelavend*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 20:20:37 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:20:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.26 (07) [E]
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From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: ?

Dear folks,

  I still wander what the origin of the Jutnish definite article ? is.
I've been studying Old Norse declesions and I've found nothing about this
word form. Where did they get that word from?

  Thank you so much 4 your patience.


     ?vison.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 26 20:22:16 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:22:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JUN.2008.132216.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (01) [E/LS]

Beste Marcus,

at first: another excellent posting of yours! Worth to give a critical
answer...!

You wrote:

*Back to the Northern identity: The Northern identity manifests in memes
like "Fischk?ppe" (Northerners being called, but also calling themselves
"fish heads"), or a "Rock attitude" (the Rocker subculture and Heavy Metal
are more widespread in Northern Germany than in the south of Germany, as far
as I could observe this). In metal and Rock Northern Germany has much in
common with Scandinavia. They (or "We") even identify them/our-selves with
the Vikings. Or think of Hip Hop bands like Fettes Brot or Fischmob
performing songs in Low Saxon. Like the song "Nordisch by nature". Northern
identity pure. The band Torfrock even combines Viking rock and Low Saxon.
This Northern identity is my hope (actually my only hope) for the future of
Low Saxon.*
**
'Northern idendity' and 'Low Saxon' are different things, as well as Hip Hop
and Metal (the two of them I never would write within one single sentence
*s*).
Having been  in Wacken (meanwhile the world's greatest annual Heavy Metal
festival, in Schleswig-Holstein/Germany; you had mentioned it in a previous
mail) for a couple of times (continuously from 1996 with less than 5,000
visitors till 2002 with more than 50,000!) I didn't feel any smell of LS.
Groups like "In Extremo" became famous with Middle *High* German textes, but
our "Torf-Rockers" never became part of the main actors there, as far as I
remember- they're still our 'local heroes'.

Wacken (standing for the "Mekka" and spirit of *true* Metal fans) is simply
international- you'll find people from Brazil, Southern- and Eastern Europe,
Japan etc. as well as the mentioned Scandinavians. I don't guess that all
these people feel themselves as "Vikings"- as well as I don't ;-)!"
The greater part of Germany's most famous Rock/Heavy Metal bands are
originating from the Western regions ("Blind Guardian" from Krefeld [Lower
Rhine area], "Accept", "Grave Digger" and "Rage" from Essen [Ruhrgebiet],
"Edguy" from Schwaben etc.). Okay- "Helloween" comes from Hamburg, "The
Scorpions" and some more from Hanover.

A 'Northern' identity is something different and as I fear, not appropriate
to save our Low Saxon 'identity'.

Die hard ;-)!

Jonny Meibohm

(BTW: Next year I have to visit Wacken once more with my youngest son- in a
moment of carelessnes I have promised it to him. Perhaps it will become a
family event with all my four sons- the oldest one is same aged as you
are...).
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:11:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:11:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.071153.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.26 (03) [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]
>
> What is that something to be said for calling German etc. "South Germanic"
> instead of West Germanic?
>
> I can imagine a few things myself of course: the High German consonant
> shift, dative and accusative pronouns (mir-mich), pronouns ending in -r
> (er, wir, ihr), a part of lexicon, e.a.

I would fundamentally call these things conservatisms that happened to
survive in High German which were lost in the rest of West Germanic or
High German-specifc innovations postdating the definite separation of
the primary branches of the Germanic languages. Take the merger of
accusative and dative pronoun forms. It is clear that such really does
not form a primary-branch type splitting of West Germanic, as Early
Old English actually preserved distinct accusative and date pronouns;
rather such forms actually merged in Late Old English (albeit being
preserved in poetic uses). Hence the merger of accusative and dative
pronouns is likely more just a coincidental and or areal innovation
which High German just happened to not participate in until rather
late (as there are High German dialects which today have merged the
accusative and dative pronouns).

> But what we should not forget is that present day German is much closer
> related to Dutch and Low Saxon than English is. A Dutchman can understand
> German without previous learning, so can a Low Saxon, but they don't have
> a clue when an Englishman is speaking (or writing) without having learned
> his language first.
> It would rather be a division between Continental West Germanic, including
> German, and Insular West Germanic, including English.

>From a synchronic standpoint, I would have to strongly agree. The
Anglic languages, while genetically being unequivocably West Germanic,
have clearly taken a separate path from the rest of West Germanic (and
even the Frisian languages). The matter is that one could consider all
of continental West Germanic and even the Frisian languages to have
formed a Sprachbund in which Anglic was not really included. Hence the
Anglic languages have basically diverged from the rest of West
Germanic while the Low German and High German languages stayed far
more cohesive as a group together.

> So I wonder whether we should stick to relations that existed maybe 1000
> or more years ago to classify these languages, Reinhard.

The matter is that if one is to treat things from a purely genetic
standpoint things are still not so simple. The matter is that neither
the split between Anglo-Frisian and the rest of West Germanic nor the
split between High German and the rest of West Germanic can be really
said to be the fundamental "root-level" split in West Germanic. For
starters, West Germanic already formed a dialect continuum even before
either split occurred in the first place. Secondarily, both splits
basically separated out sections of the existing West Germanic dialect
continuum (and not necessarily even in line with preexisting
isoglosses either), leaving the remainder, the Low German languages,
as being basically paraphyletic. Of the Low German languages, their
common features are more a matter of shared conservatisms and later
shared areal features than really forming any kind of root-level
branch of West Germanic at the genetic level.

> I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The
> question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian
varieties
> from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch"
> and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.

This is one of many reasons to consider the split between High German
and the rest of West Germanic as being overlaid upon preexisting West
Germanic dialect variation rather than as being a true root-node split
of West Germanic

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:14:57 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:14:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.27 (02) [E]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (06) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>

>
> Marcus, how about writing a piece about Low Saxon Faslom for the new
> "Traditions" presentation? I did not grow up with it and wonder if it
> belongs mainly to Roman Catholic communities. I take it the name /Falsom/ is
> related to /Fastelavend/.
>
Yes, Faslom is a form (what do you call "verschliffen" in English?) of
Fastelavend. It is not a catholic festival. Contrary, I believe it is better
described as the Lutheran counterpart of the catholic
Karneval/Fasnacht/Fasching. Its epicenter in modern times is South of
Hamburg in the L?neburg Heath with offshoots into some other regions, among
them my home area. But historically it was spread in a wider region
(although I don't know whether the customs connected to Faslom were the same
in all regions). There are some villages in my region still having Faslom,
but sadly my own village has lost it (or never had it? I don't know. I don't
know any accounts of Faslom here. Perhaps the village wasn't big enough...).
So I can report second hand only. I don't think, that would make a good
report.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (06) [E]
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.26 (01) [E/LS]

Beste Marcus,
 at first: another excellent posting of yours! Worth to give a critical
answer...!
 You wrote:
 *Back to the Northern identity: The Northern identity manifests in memes
like "Fischk?ppe" (Northerners being called, but also calling themselves
"fish heads"), or a "Rock attitude" (the Rocker subculture and Heavy Metal
are more widespread in Northern Germany than in the south of Germany, as far
as I could observe this). In metal and Rock Northern Germany has much in
common with Scandinavia. They (or "We") even identify them/our-selves with
the Vikings. Or think of Hip Hop bands like Fettes Brot or Fischmob
performing songs in Low Saxon. Like the song "Nordisch by nature". Northern
identity pure. The band Torfrock even combines Viking rock and Low Saxon.
This Northern identity is my hope (actually my only hope) for the future of
Low Saxon.*
** 'Northern idendity' and 'Low Saxon' are different things, as well as Hip
Hop and Metal (the two of them I never would write within one single
sentence *s*).
 I didn't want to say, that Northern identity and Low Saxon are closely
connected. But Low Saxon is one aspect of the Northern identity (Northern
means Northern German, that I mentioned the "Vikings" didn't mean I wanted
to extend it to Scandinavia, although some sympathy to Scandinavia is
another aspect of this special identity). Of course are Metal, Rock and Hip
Hop different subcultures, but they are to some degree aspects of the
identity. The fraction of "Northern identity carriers" speaking Low Saxon
will not be significantly higher than in the general society, but if you can
establish the equation "Low Saxon = Nordish" carriers of the identity will
be more eager to use (some) Low Saxon than others, cause they try to be
Nordish, if they feel Nordish by identity (just like carriers of Metal
culture accept Middle High German music as cool, cause it is part of their
subculture).

There are dozens of Low Saxons bands in the coastal regions, but I don't
know any (not even one single) in Eastfalia or Brandenburg. The difference
does not correlate to the speaker numbers. There should be at least some
bands in more Southern Saxon regions, if it were only the number of people.
No. The big difference is identity. Low Saxon is "cool" in the north (at
least to some degree), but in the south Low Saxon is not cool. They are even
proud to have lost their ancestral language ("In Hannover we speak the best
and purest High German."). Or if you don't believe the "Low Saxon is cool"
thing, let's say: Low Saxon has a lobby in the north, but not so in the
south. There's a difference in the minds.

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:16:32 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:16:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.27 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.071632.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.26 (07) [E]

> From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
> Subject: ?
>
> Dear folks,
>
>   I still wander what the origin of the Jutnish definite article ? is.
> I've been studying Old Norse declesions and I've found nothing about this
> word form. Where did they get that word from?
>
>   Thank you so much 4 your patience.
>
>      ?vison.

To my knowledge it is of the same origin as the definite suffix in the
rest of North Germanic. The only difference is that the areal
influence of West Germanic (specifically Low Saxon and Frisian)
resulted in it being preposed rather than postposed during the period
where it was still an independent word (and thus it never ended up
becoming a suffix or postclitic).
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:18:50 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:18:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.071850.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.26 (05) [D/E]

Jonny:
What about Standard German '(eine) ganze Menge'?

Ron:
"Little" is not a Scandinavian loan.

Please read carefully: I wrote "...My intuition says that THE USAGE of
small and little in English is originally from Scandinavian"  and  "It
looks like the difference between much and many. >In the Scandinavian
languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas German has only 'viel'
and Dutch 'veel'..."

So yes, of course, German has "Menge" and "manchmal", Dutch has "menig"
etc., and Dutch has "luttel" and these words are related to their English
and Scandinavian equivalents. And schmal and smal are related to small.

But the usage of little/small and much/many in English is the same as in
the Scandinavian languages, but very different from German and Dutch.
Even "few" has its exact counterpart in Scandinavian "f?", whereas German
has "wenig" and Dutch "weinig".

In Dutch and German we have but one form for both singular and plural, and
the words used are different from the English and Scandinavian ones:

much = viel (G) / veel (NL)
many = viel (G) / veel (NL)

little = klein (G / NL)
small = klein  (G / NL)

little = wenig (G) / weinig (NL)
few = wenig (G) / weinig (NL)

much = mycket (Swedish) / meget, megen (Danish)
many = m?nga (S) / mange (D)

little = liten (S) / lille, liden (D)
small = sm? (S / D)

little = lite (S) / lidet (D)
few = f? (S / D)

Dutch and German are closely related West-Germanic languages, as can be
seen here, and Low Saxon fits into that picture, too (at least my own LS
dialects and actually most/all LS in the Netherlands) and so does Frisian.

English is a West-Germanic language as well, but once quite strongly
influenced by the Norse (Scandinavian) of the Vikings from Denmark and
Norway.

I think the usage of much/many and little/small/few in English has been
influenced by Scandinavian.
The related words themselves already may have existed in Old English - as
they did in Old German, Old Franconian, Old Saxon etc. - but the way they
are used now is actually typically Scandinavian-like.

That's very interesting, isn't it? Maybe there are more of thes conceiled
Scandinavianism in English?

Ingmar


From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

 Beste Ingmar,

Du schreyvst:

> My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
> originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.
> In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
> and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
> word for both little and small.
I'm not sure about a Scandinavian influence here, because in our Low Saxon
you may use 'small' the same way like in English. And in Standard German we
use terms like e.g. 'schmale Kost', meaning E 'slender diet'= 'small meal'.

> It looks like the difference between much and many.
> In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
> German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.
What about Standard German '(eine) ganze Menge', meaning both 'much' and
'many'?

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

"Little" is not a Scandinavian loan. It goes back to Old English *l?tel* ~
*
lytel*, cf. Old Saxon *luttil*, Old German *luzzil* (> dialect. *l?tzel*),
Middle Dutch *luttel* (> *luttel*), Old Norse *l?tell*, Gothic *leitils* <
Germanic **l?tilo*. This is a diminutive form based on Old English
*l?t*(cf. Old Saxon
*lut* >  Modern *l**?tt*, cf. Scandinavian *l?tt* < Germanic **lut ~ *l?t*)
which gave dialectical English *lite* 'small', 'insignificant'. Another
derivation with the meaning 'small' are Old Saxon *luttik* (> *l**?ttig*),
Old Frisian *littich* and Old German *luzz?g.*

My theory is that, if not semantically intended from the outset, the
diminutive form favored the semantic inclusion of "cuteness" (e.g., "the
(cute/poor) little bird" vs "the small bird" = "small in size").
"Little-ness" tends to be associated with vulnerability, hence appealing to
one's protector instinct with "cuteness," while "small" refers to size
without this emotional appeal. "Little" is therefore often associated with
"poor" in the sense of "pitiable." In "poor", semantic inclusion of
"destitute" and "deprived" and in extension "pitiable" seems to have come
with importation of Norman *pover ~ pore ~ pour ~ povere ~ poevere ~
puvre*,
since all Romance cognates can be used in the sense of "pitiable" as well,
just as they do the Germanic equivalents.

*Klein* for 'small' and 'little' is normal in Dutch and German. There are
some Low Saxon dialects that use *kleen* [kl???n] ~ *klein* [kla??n], but
most use *l**?tt* [l?t]. In all three languages you can use *arm* the same
way as you use "poor", i.e. with the extended sense of 'pitiable'. (In the
very north, Low Saxon *Stackel* can be used for 'pitiable person', probably
derived from Jutish *stakkel*, related to the adjective
*stakkels*'pitiable', possibly derived from an old sense of "cripple"
or perhaps
"toddler" = "someone that staggers about").

In some Low Saxon dialects you can use *pover* strictly in the sense of
'poor' = 'indigent'. This is a French loan, a more recent one than English
"poor". Note that this can *not* be used in the sense of 'pitiable'.

English "small" is related to German *schmal* and Low Saxon *smaal*, both
usually meaning 'narrow' but, as Jonny points out above, 'small' in some
idiomatic expressions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 14:23:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:23:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.27 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.072341.0700.>

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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

The matter with this is that while the Anglic languages are
genetically very much West Germanic, it seems to in many ways
actuallly areally pattern with North Germanic or the most northern Low
German languages rather than with the rest of West Germanic. A lot of
such is likely just coincidental (or still just fuzzy in the way that
areal phenomena tend to be), but the matter still stands that the
Germanic language that has had the most outside influence upon Anglic
is Old Norse, and the only other Germanic languages with really any
significant influence upon it are the West Germanic dialects spoken
along the southeastern coast of the North Sea (which have themselves
been somewhat influenced by the southernmost North Germanic dialects).

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.25 (03) [E]
>
> My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
> originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.
>
> In the Scandinavian North Germanic languages the usage of litt etc. and
> sm? is like in English.
> In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
> and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
> word for both little and small.
>
> It looks like the difference between much and many.
> In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
> German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.
>
> So here too, Scandinavian may have at least encouraged the English usage.
>
> Ingmar
>
> From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
> Subject: [LLL] Morphology? Lexicology? Semantics?
>
>  Hei alle sammen (to borrow from another list I'm on [Sorry Reinhard])
>
> Being that I am a linguistics-minded person, I've always wondered about
the
> semantic considerations and origins of the following scenarios:
>
> Two people are walking down a street. One sees that a house finch has been
> injured. This person says:
>
> "Poor little bird(ie)!"
>
> The other says:
>
> "that's quite a blow for such a small bird."
>
> Being that, at least in Norwegian, I've seen evidence of both adjectives
> being present in Germanic languages, what's the origin of the terms small
> and little? Where did we get the semantic differences between the
so-called
> poor, defenseless little ones and the simple size of the small ones?
> Ben

----------

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

Just a little correction: Liten is used for the singular, sm? is for the
plural in Swedish - no difference i meaning otherwise (in contrast to
English)
So it's

en liten bil (a/one small car)
(den) lilla bilen (the small car)
sm? bilar (small cars)
(de) sm? bilarna (the small cars)

There is even "smal" which is a loan from Low Saxon, meaning "narrow",
"slim"

Hence the same word originally but in two different forms. One north
germanic, the other a Low Saxon loan - quite a usual phenomenon in the
Scandinavian languages.

Greetings

Wolfram Antepohl

Wolfram Antepohl
Lindesbergsgatan 4
582 53 Link?ping
013-125243
073-6002667
wolfram at antepohl.se

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Semantics

Hi, Wolfram!

It's great you joined us in the speakers' corner. Welcome!

Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 21:25:00 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:25:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.142500.0700.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.27 (03) [E]

? Save Berlin dialect as cultural heritage !

Hello LL-world & Marcus,

Am 26.06.2008 um 16:08 schrieb Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]:

My original point was the people of Brandenburg not keeping up their Low
Saxon heritage, cause they got told (not explicitly told, but implicitly
they adopted the message) they were "Ossis", people from Eastern Germany.
This, together with additional influence from the 3.5 million people city
Berlin, made them change their Mark-Brandenburgian language and identity to
a mixture of "outskirts of Berlin" and "German Democratic Republic" language
and identity. This is a mixture of "country thinking" and "cultural erosion
through media" (national media of the former GDR, actually).


A rather adventurous theory!

1.) 500 years ago, Berlin began to change step by step to the then Meissnian
dialect for practical reasons: the commercial connections to Meissen and
Lipsia (and later to the whole Middle and South German world) were important
for it's own commercial and industrial devolopment, more important than the
connections to the - at the beginning - still Low Saxon speaking North.

2.) Berlin did not change to Standard German (which at the beginning did not
exist
but to the Middle German dialect of that of the margraveship (county) of
Meissen at that time, i. e. to a dialect which still had been half been
Middle High German, with incomplete consonant's shift and the New/Modern
High German vocal shift only partly accomplished.

There is a interesting build-up of examples in Agathe Laasch's "Berlinisch"
{mhd.=Middle High German, obs.=Meissnian [for "obers?chsisch"],
berl.=Berlinian, nd.= Low Saxon [niederdeutsch]}:

a) [engl. my/mine wine his stone to mean]

mhd. m?n w?n s?n stein meinen
obs.[M] mein wein sein st?n m?nen
berl. mein wein sein st?n m?nen
nd. m?n w?n s?n st?n m?nen

b) [engl. house mouse tree also, too]

mhd. h?s m?s boum ouch
obs.[M] haus maus b?m ?ch
berl. haus maus b?m ?ch
nd. h?s m?s b?m ?k

3.) Berlin adopted the Meissnian vocal phonology and orthography (later
Standard German) but applied the Low Saxon articulation.

Further there was a lot of concordance - mainly in the vocalisation -
between Meissnian/Berlinian and LS words.

Berlinian maintained some wording and phrasing of Mark-Brandenburgian LS.

Indeed one can mix LS and Berlinian elements, as this is possible with LS
and Middle High German, too. - What is rather impossible between LS and
Standard German, not so much because of the consonant shift but the Modern
High German vocal shift. (There is e. g. also more sound similarity between
LS and Swiss German - a Middle High German dialect - than between LS and
Standard German.)

4.) Already long before the existence of the GDR even the farther parts of
Brandenburg and all the younger Generations had adopted the Berlinian
dialect because of similar reasons as Berlin erstwhile did with Meissnian:
the necessity of easier communication and participation in economic and
cultural life of the center of Brandenburg and Germany, i. e. Berlin.

5.) Because of similar reasons the communication on this list is mainly in
Modern English and not in the various Low Saxon varieties - despite that
English is at least so faraway from any LS dialect as Standard German is.
That seems to be the easier way of mutuel understanding and explaining one's
arguments - because it is a modern, urban, civilized - standardized! -
language, usable even in humanities... ;-)

5.) Berlinian has never been the "brand label" or marker of state and
politics of GDR (despite some highlights in culture, theatre etc.), the
language varieties in which the official state of GDR presented itself was
rather ugly Modern Meissnian ("S?chsisch" - hear Ulbricht), Mosel-Frankonian
(Honnecker) and stilted efforts of a burocratic Standard German. - In any
case nothing for the youth of Land/state Brandenburg to identify with, even
in case of "Ostalgie" (social GDR-nostalgia).

6.) Nowadays the Berlinian dialect itself is in danger because of the
consequences of the economic take-over of East Germany, of the West/South
(!) German repopulation of Berlin (formerly restricted to West Berlin) and
because nobody in the Berlin government and political culture is aware of
the cultural virtue of this local (and now regional) dialect and nothing is
done to save this delightful and witty language of the broad people and the
literature.

Conclusio:

Instead of deploring the almost completed and unarrestable die-off of the
Brandenburg LS we'd better care about the survival of the Berlinian
dialect!

Met echt-westf?lsken Gr?iten!
Joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Moin, Joachim! Great to hear from you. Thanks for the above.

Not that I would want to detract from the essence, but I feel obligated to
tweak something in your data.

a) [engl. my/mine wine his stone to mean]

mhd. m?n w?n s?n stein meinen
obs.[M] mein wein sein st?n m?nen
berl. mein wein sein st?n m?nen
nd. m?n w?n s?n *st?n m?nen*

b) [engl. house mouse tree also, too]

mhd. h?s m?s boum ouch
obs.[M] haus maus b?m ?ch
berl. haus maus b?m ?ch
nd. h?s m?s *b?m ?k*

The marked Low Saxon items have diphthongs:

steyn [st???n] ~ [sta??n] (stone)
meynen [?m???nn?] ~ [?ma??nn?] (to mean)
boum [b???m] ~ [ba??m] (tree)

but in the following item a monophthong, at least originally, or in many
dialects:
ook [?o?k] (also, too)

In Middle Saxon, these tended to be written the way you wrote them above. We
can't be totally sure if they where monophthongs or diphthongs. But, going
by spelling variation, it looks like they were diphthongs at least in some
dialects:

st?n ~ steyn ~ stein (stone)
m?nen ~ meynen ~ meinen (to mean)
also:
?k(e) ~ eyk(e) ~ eik(e) (oak)

b?m ~ boum ~ baum (tree)

but:
?k (also, too)

Do you think that in the Brandenburg dialects of Berlin /ee/ and /ey/ were
leveled to /ee/, and /oo/ and /ou/ to /oo/?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 27 21:27:33 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:27:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.06.27 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JUN.2008.142733.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L History was Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]

 > From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]
> The area around Eupen-Maastricht-Liege-Aachen is linguistically indeed
very interesting and very confusing including the curious existence of
Neutral Moresnet which was a virtually independent country for almost
hundred years

I would like to say a few words about undivided Moresnet.
Actually it was never neutral, but just undivided, as such left in art. 17
of the border treaty, signed in Aachen on June 26, 1816, and, after
ratification in both the Netherlands and Prussia, finalized, by exchange of
the documents of ratification, in Kleve on September 16 1816. The report on
the exact placement of the border stones was exchanged in Emmerich on
September 23, 1818.

*Governors of Undivided Moresnet*

1. Period with 2 governors

a - The Prussian governors:

1817 Geheimer Bergrat Wilhelm Hardt
1819 Oberbergrat Johann-Martin-Daniel Mayer, director of the Bergamt of
D?ren
1836 Heinrich Martins, Oberbergrat in Bonn
1852 Armand von Harenne, Landrat von Eupen (for police only)
1854 Armand von Harenne, Landrat von Eupen (completely)
1866 Landrat Freiherr von der Heydt
1868 Landrat Edward Guelcher (as delegue of the king only)
1871 Landrat Sternickel
1893 Landrat Edward Guelcher
1909 Landrat The Losen

b1 - The Dutch governors

1817 Werner Jacob, deputee of the provincial administration of Li?ge
1823 Joseph Brandes, registrar of the provincial administration of Li?ge

b2 - The Belgian governors

1835 Lambert Ernst, assistant prosecuter at the Court of Appeal of Li?ge
1840 Mathieu Cremer, judge at the district court of Verviers
1889 Fernand Bleyfuesz, commissioner of the district (arrondissement) of
Verviers

b3 - The German occuption force in Belgium (headed by Governor General von
Bissing)

(March) 1915 Dr. Bayer, kaiserliche Zivilkommissar bei dem Kreischef zu
Verviers

2. Period with 1 governor

(June) 1915 Justizrat Spiess (replacing ad interim Landrat The Rosen)


3. Treaty of Versailles 1919

Undivided Moresnet was assigned directly to Belgium (art. 32)
Eupen-Malmedy went formally through a voting procedure (with possibilty of
writing disapproving comments openly in a register) before being fully
integrated. (art. 33-38)

*Law*
The law valid in 1816 (French law) remained applied in undivided Moresnet.
Judicial procedures started before the Judge of peace of Aachen (Germany),
with eventually appeal at the court of Appeal in Li?ge (Belgium), both
acting as to old French law. This was complemented by decrees issued jointly
by the 2 governors.

*Citizenship.*
Only the original inhabitants (incl immigrants till 1820) and their direct
descendance had "neutral" citizenship of Undivided Moresnet (248 in 1818,
273 in 1865, 490 in 1918).

*Resources*

1. Moresnet

Firmin Paquet, *Le territoire contest? de Moresnet*, 1960, Verviers, G?rard,
100 pp.
(very detailled as to the legal situation, the best resource on the subject)

2. Eupen - Malmedy, including some random comments on Moresnet

J PD van Banning, *Gebiedsovergang en zijn gevolgen, getoetst aan de
praktijk van inlijving van Eupen-Malmedy door Belgi?*, 1949, Schaesberg,
Drukkerij Bykorf, 117 pp. + a large map. A PhD paper with a very interesting
legal analysis *(intended to extrapolate to the situation of the Drostamt
T?ddern, annexed by the Netherlands; later returned to Germany, is now the
municipality of "Selfkant", cf. P.M. Coebergh, Het Drostamt T?ddern, 1952,
Maastricht, 272 pp. + map)*

Roger Collinet, *L'annexation d'Eupen et Malmedy ? la Belgique en 1920*,
1986, Verviers, La D?rive, 127 pp. (contains much in-chamber details of the
politics of the Belgian government)

Gerd Kleu,* Die Neuordnung der Ostkantone Belgiens (1945-1956),* 2007,
Essen, Klartext, ISBN 978-3-89871-417-7, 184 pp. (also treats briefly in
about 30 pp the period 1795-1945)

Kurt Fagnoul, *Die annulierte Annexion, Von Wiener Kongre? bis zum Ende
Bolleniens*, 1985, St. Vith, Aktuell Verlag, 225 pp.
Vocabulary: *Bollenien*: Local name for the territory annexed by Belgium in
1945, returned to Germany in 1958, governed by the Belgian General
*Bolle*(It included Bildchen, Lichtenbusch, Losheim and parts of
Leykaul and
Hemmeres)

Eupen-Malmedy und sein Gouverneur, *Denkschrift herausgegeben bei
Gelegenheit der zu Ehren des General-Leutnants Baltia am 28. Oktober 1923
veranstalteten Feier*, 1923, printed in Brussels, 143 pp large size with
insert of many glossy pages with pictures.
More about Baltia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Baltia
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Baltia

3. Language

Nelde, *Deutsch als Muttersprache in Belgien*, 1979 Wiesbasen, Franz Steiner
Verlag, viii + 288 pp.(includes quite some material about the "dialects")

Peusgen's Pierrot, *Alles wat d?er at ?mmer weete woolt ?ver Kelemes ?n
Omjebung*, CD with 26 contributions, published by BRF-2, 2007 (
http://www.brf.be/brf2).
Kelmis (http://www.kelmis.be) is <http://www.kelmis.be%29+is/> the name
undivided Moresnet got in Belgium in 1919. It absorbed some other
municipalities in the seventies.
The CD is in stock at the "logos" bookshop downtown Eupen (
http://www.logos.be)

Vocabulary of the splitted Moresnet:
Western Part (1815 Netherlands, 1830 Belgian): Moresnet (now part of
Plombi?res (Bleyberg)) (French as administrative language)
Central Part (1815 undivided, 1919 Belgian): Neutral Moresnet, 1919: Kelmis,
La Calamine (German as administrative language)
Eastern Part (1815 Prussian, 1919 Belgian): Preu?isch Moresnet, 1919
Neu-Moresnet (now part of Kelmis)  (German as administrative language)

Regards,
Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 28 17:21:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:21:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.102141.0700.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.27 (05) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote: that little /l?tzil  were originally diminutives of
'lite'

I had always thought that a 'light breakfast' or being on a 'light diet'
were so described as being opposite to ' a heavy breakfast' or 'a stodgy
diet' but it would make much more sense if they both actually meant
'little/small'.

Possible?

best wishes on a rainy cold [typical ] June day

Heather

PS but the strawberries are good!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Semantics

Heather,

You wrote above:

Ron/Reinhard wrote: that little /l?tzil  were originally diminutives of
'lite'

Well, almost. English "little" is a diminutive form of now practically
obsolete English "lite", while *l?tzil* is an older German form of now
practically obsolete German *l?tzel*.

After the coolest spring on record, summer seems to have finally arrived
here, at least for a few days. It's quite warm already in the morning, and
I'm enjoying a completely clear view of the Olympic Mountains.

People here are getting into vacation mood. Happy July 4th to all in and
from the US of A (or "U, S and A," as Borat would say it)!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 28 17:45:11 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:45:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.104511.0700.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (01) [E/Berl.]

Een wunderscheen'n, Ron,
Tach ooch, vaehrteste Jenossin'n und Jenossen,

Am 27.06.2008 um 23:25 schrieb R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Not that I would want to detract from the essence, but I feel obligated to
tweak something in your data.

Do you think that in the Brandenburg dialects of Berlin /ee/ and /ey/ were
leveled to /ee/, and /oo/ and /ou/ to /oo/?


Jawollja, keen Diphtong meer bai "ee" und "oo", det secht meen insjesamt
ach?een(18)jeerjet Anheeren von Berlin'schen Ureenwoonan (aborigines) -
zw?lwe davon inna Kalta-Kriich-Frontstadt Westberlin, sexe jetze in
Ostberlin. M?n da ooch dat Berlin'sche bedroot is, wee'k det nich behoopten,
wenn ik di Nacht nich met der hailjen Agathe ihra Berlin'schen Jrammatik
?ujebracht hette ...

Yes, indeed, no Diphtong left in "ee" and "oo", that says my altogether 18
year long hearing of Berlin aborigines - 12 of it in the frontcity of the
Cold War Westberlin, 6 nowadays in Eastberlin. But because also the Berlin
dialect is threatened with extinction, I wouldn't dare affirming that
without spending the night with St. Agathe's Berlin grammar ...

Eemt wi jesacht:

?*Icke, dette, kieke mal: *
*Ogen, Fleesch und Beene!*
Di Berliner al?umal
Sprehen jaa ?u scheene!?

Als alla?u?astet w?nsch' ik noch Hals und Beenbruch,
Juutjeen!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries

-----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Und ik dank ooch scheen, lieba Joachim. Ja, die hailje Agathe ihre
Berlinsche Jrammatik muss ik mia ooch wieda mal ankieken, meen ik.

Un da kriech ik jleich wieda eene Idee (und Ideen jiept et bai mia ja imma
jenuuch): in't Jeschichtsblatt von Lowlands-L wat ?ba die Agathe Lasch. Det
weea jut, wail sie eemt laida ?u wenich bekannt is. Wat meenste da?u,
Joachim?

Joachim, I wonder if you agree with my characterization of traditional
Berlin dialects as Missingsch. I know it's not officially known as such, but
it's undeniable that it has strong Low Saxon substrata.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 28 23:43:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:43:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.164340.0700.>

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (03) [E/Berl.]

Hey Ron & alle,

Am 27.06.2008 um 23:25 schrieb R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Do you think that in the Brandenburg dialects of Berlin /ee/ and /ey/ were
leveled to /ee/, and /oo/ and /ou/ to /oo/?


perhaps I misunderstood this question in my first answer (see below).

If the question was about the original (Low) Saxon Language of old
Berlin/C?ln-upon-Spree until the 15th century (M?rkisch Platt) then the
answer should perhaps be enhanced and more differentiated:

According to Agathe Lasch there are three types of Middle Low Saxon (=mnd.)
? that were in LS-Berlinish (right?) written i and spoken diphtongized /??/:

type 1: mnd. br?f, LS-Berl. brif /br??f/ [engl. letter]
type 2: mnd. b?den, LS-Berl. biden /b??den/ [engl. to bid]
type 3: mnd. s?n LS-Berl. sin /s??n/ [engl. to see]

Don't ask me about the 3 types, I don't know, also Lasch's
"Mittelniederdeutsche Grammatik" at this (and many points) is too
complicated for me.

Nevertheless in *st?n & **m?nen (?-type 5) according to Agathe Lasch the ?
/ee/ in LS-Berlinian were long monophtong IPA [e:], even if sometimes
written "ei"!!!*

Mnd. ? has 3 types, too (Lasch, Mnd. Grammatik ? 158, after Seelmann, Nd.
Jn. 18, 141), thereoff:

?? = german. ?, got. as. ?, ahd. ua, uo,
as in mnd. b?k, LS-Berl. buk /bu?k/ Berl. Buch [engl. book]

?? = german. au, got. au, as. ?, ahd. ou, ?,
as in mnd. l?pen, LS-Berl. l?pen IPA[o:] or [?u]?  Berl. loofen IPA[o:] or
[?:]??
[engl. to run]


Am 28.06.2008 um 19:45 schrieb R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Un da kriech ik jleich wieda eene Idee (und Ideen jiept et bai mia ja imma
jenuuch): in't Jeschichtsblatt von Lowlands-L wat ?ba die Agathe Lasch. Det
weea jut, wail sie eemt laida ?u wenich bekannt is. Wat meenste da?u,
Joachim?


jan? meena Meenunk! Aba ob ik da gro? wat baitraren kann, wee? ik noch nich.

Joachim, I wonder if you agree with my characterization of traditional
Berlin dialects as Missingsch. I know it's not officially known as such, but
it's undeniable that it has strong Low Saxon substrata.


Low Saxon substrata, without doubts. But one have to take into account that
there were some elements in (Middle German) Meissnian of that time, that
were equal or similar to LS elements, as shown in Lasch's Table I reported.

So it depends, what you understand under "Missingsch". A. Lasch rejects the
hypothesis of Berlinish as High German/Low Saxon mixed language, because it
is in kernel/core Meissnian, but with LS substrata saved or even reimported
(as "ik", "det") in the 18/19th century.

Juutjeen,
joachim aus Olle-Pankowe

Am 28.06.2008 um 13:55 schrieb Joachim Kreimer-de Fries:

Jawollja, keen Diphtong meer bai "ee" und "oo", det secht meen insjesamt
ach?een(18)jeerjet Anheeren von Berlin'schen Ureenwoonan (aborigines) -
zw?lwe davon inna Kalta-Kriich-Frontstadt Westberlin, sexe jetze in
Ostberlin. M?n da ooch dat Berlin'sche bedroot is, wee'k det nich behoopten,
wenn ik di Nacht nich met der hailjen Agathe ihra Berlin'schen Jrammatik
?ujebracht hette ...

Yes, indeed, no Diphtong left in "ee" and "oo", that says my altogether 18
year long hearing of Berlin aborigines - 12 of it in the frontcity of the
Cold War Westberlin, 6 nowadays in Eastberlin. But because also the Berlin
dialect is threatened with extinction, I wouldn't dare affirming that
without spending the night with St. Agathe's Berlin grammar ...
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 28 23:48:59 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:48:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.164859.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Words"

Beste Ron,

seeing you being busy with your new projects we should not forget 'Beyond
The Pale'.

I should like you to check some new proposals.

*In category 'Words I like':*

LS: 'anbukken'
E: 'to abut', 'to make a child itself feel salvaged in the arms of mom or
dad'
I like this word, which probably was my very first Low Saxon one, because it
took all dangers, all harm of the world from my babyish soul. It is also
used in the Northern dialects of Standard German, because there is no real
equivalent in that language, as well as in English (?).

*In category 'Words I hate':*
**
E: 'motherf..r'
I hate it, because for my feeling it is so cruel and obscene like just very
few words in any language I know. And meanwhile it starts to become part of
the vocabulary of German proles, too.

*In category 'False Friends':*

E: 'tank', meaning an armoured vessel
G: 'Tank', meaning a bin, a container

*and same category:*

East Frisian Low Saxon: 'Bomme', meaning 'milk can'
G: 'Bombe', meaning
E: 'bomb'

*In category 'Words To Confuse':*
**
G: 'Mar?ne', meaning a fish of the *coregonidae*-family (G: also 'Renke'; E:
'whitefish [??])
G: 'Marone', meaning E: 'chestnut'
G: 'Mor?ne', meaning the geological relics of the glacier time, the
'moraine'
G: 'Mur?ne', meaning another fish, the 'moray (eel)'

...and some more stepping stones of this kind:

G: 'Matrone', E: 'matron'
G: 'Makrone', E: 'macaroon'.

This for today...

Allerbest, and have a nice weekend, alltogether!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Words

Thanks, Jonny. I'll add them to http://lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/ as soon
as I get a chance, at least after you got some feedback.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 03:33:28 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:33:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JUN.2008.203328.0700.>

========================================================================
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (04) [E]

English "tank" also means a container, usually a large metal one for storing
liquids (water tank, oil tank, gasoline tank), or to hold gasses under
pressure (oxygen tank, scuba tank).  It came to mean "an armored, tracked
vehicle" in World War I, when the British, in order to maintain operational
security while the vehicles were still in the design and development stage,
referred to the new vehicles as "tanks" to disguise the true nature of what
was being developed.

Another use of "tank" in English is for a jail cell, especially for holding
people who have been arrested for public drunkenness ? usually called a
"drunk tank."

There is also the phrase "to be in the tank (for someone)," meaning to be
someone's supporter, and usually implying that the person being supported
has paid off the supporter or promised some favor, or suggesting that
someone who should be impartial is really working to help one side.

Kevin Caldwell

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Words"

Beste Ron,

seeing you being busy with your new projects we should not forget 'Beyond
The Pale'.

*In category 'False Friends':*

E: 'tank', meaning an armoured vessel

G: 'Tank', meaning a bin, a container
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 16:23:25 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:23:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.29 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JUN.2008.092325.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Language varieties

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L History was Re: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03)
[E]
> 3. Language
 > Peusgen's Pierrot, *Alles wat d?er at ?mmer weete woolt ?ver Kelemes ?n
Omjebung*, CD with 26 contributions, published by BRF-2, 2007 (
http://www.brf.be/brf2).
> "Kelmis" http://www.kelmis.be is the new name "undivided Moresnet" got in
Belgium in 1919. Kelmis absorbed some other municipalities in the seventies.

> The CD is in stock at the "logos" bookshop downtown Eupen (
http://www.logos.be) <http://www.logos.be%29/>
[10 euro]

Here are 2 samples from this CD. For me the language is Ripuarian (The area
is also just East of the Bernrath isogloss)
We are in a transition area, with more or less influence of standard German
additionally.
Mark the differences between these 2 tracks, both associated with the Kelmis
area.

Track 3, *De Modersprook* von und mit Peter Zimmer, 1:7 min
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/3zimmer.wma

Track 19, *Kelemes* von und mit Jakob Langohr, 2:54 min
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/19kel.wma

The Sankt Vith area is classified as Moselle-Franconian, except from the
North of this district, which is rather a transition area between Ripuarian
and Moselle-Franconian.
A special case is the isolated village *Recht*, adjacent to the Walloon area
(The village got some immigration from Tirol in the Prussian time)

Here follows a track from:
*Mir kallen und schw?tze Platt*, Die erste CD in Eifeler Mundart
BRF2, double-CD, 15 euro at Logos,
text transcription booklet on DINA4 for 5 euro at Logos.

CD2 Track1 *Reet,* Gedicht: Bertha Vohsen, 2:19 min
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/2_1_reet.wma
with scan of the text page:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/reet.jpg

Publications, incl. CD's, of the Eastern districts in Belgium can also been
found on the region shelves at the Mayersche in Aachen;
http://www.mayersche.de/

Regards,
Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 16:27:30 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:27:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.29 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JUN.2008.092730.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (04) [E]

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <jonny.meibohm at arcor..de>>
Subject: LL-L "Words"

*In category 'False Friends':*

E: 'tank', meaning an armoured vessel
G: 'Tank', meaning a bin, a container

But the the armoured vehicle only got its name because a British officer
thought the prototype looked like a water tank!

Paul

----------

From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (05) [E]

At 11:33 PM 28/06/2008, Kevin Caldwell wrote:

 There is also the phrase "to be in the tank (for someone)," meaning to be
> someone's supporter, and usually implying that the person being supported
> has paid off the supporter or promised some favor, or suggesting that
> someone who should be impartial is really working to help one side.
>

There's also the expression, "he tanked," which is derived from "to be
tanked" i.e. to be so drunk as to be thrown in jail.  It now seems to have a
much broader meaning, something like to have such a bad performance as to be
removed from the sport.  E.g.:  "Yet on Tuesday Taylor told reporters in
Minnesota that Garnett "tanked it" when he sat out last season's final five
games to go to California to get his sore right knee checked. Team officials
publicly supported Garnett's decision at the time it was announced."

Ed Alexander

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 16:29:35 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:29:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.29 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JUN.2008.092935.0700.>

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From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: Determiners

Hi you all,

  What is the origin of the Den Det (with adjectives) articles in modern
Scandinavian languages?
  I wonder if they may derive from some kind of demonstratives.

  Thanks.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 29 21:29:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:29:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.29 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JUN.2008.142923.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.27 (02) [E]

In my last messages I theoretized about the Northern German identity and its
aspects and effects. It seems, I am not the only one feeling so. Today I
found an article in the online edition of the renowned German newspaper Die
Welt (<
http://www.welt.de/wams_print/article2158260/Sie_machen_Plattduetsch_schnacken_modern.html>).
They had an interview with Ina M?ller and Yared Dibaba. Ina M?ller and Yared
Dibaba being the "modern media faces" of Low Saxon. M?ller was born a native
Low Saxon on a farm in my region and is a singer and TV host doing much Low
Saxon in her shows. (Her D?rp-Reggae really is great! <
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9otSTqlkytY>) Dibaba is a born Oromo from
Ethiopia. As a boy he came to Northern Germany and learned Low Saxon here.
Today he is a TV host and presents the documentary "Die Welt op Platt".
M?ller was asked: "Ist die Hinwendung zum Plattdeutschen ein Teil der
Wiederentdeckung der Werte in dieser Gesellschaft?"
Is the turn towards Low Saxon part of rediscovering the values in our
society?
M?ller answered:
"Ich glaube eher, dass es momentan kultig ist, Kult zu betreiben. Nehmen Sie
als Beispiel den FC St. Pauli. Deren T-Shirts mit den Totenk?pfen sind sogar
in D?nemark ein Hit. Oder nehmen Sie die Band Fettes Brot. Die sind in ihrer
Altersklasse genauso Kult wie es die Comic-Figur Werner Beinhart f?r ?ltere
ist. Und auch Plattdeutsch geh?rt in diese Kategorie. Das zeigt der
Zuspruch, den unsere Sendungen haben. Das hat einen eigenen Drive gekriegt.
Vielleicht auch, weil es mit uns jugendlicher, moderner wirkt. Sogar das
Ohnsorg-Theater traut sich inzwischen an modernere St?cke."
I actually think it is hip at the moment to boost cult icons. For example
the FC St. Pauli [local soccer club of Hamburg which has a devoted
followership that tries to stand off the more mainstream Hamburger SV].
Their T-shirts with the skulls and bones are a hit even in Denmark. Or look
at the band Fettes Brot. In their age group they are cult just like the
comic character Werner Beinhart for the older ones is. And Low Saxon too is
in this category. That's shown by the popularity of our shows. It's got a
drive of it's own. Maybe cause it feels younger and more modern with us.
Even the Ohnsorg-Theater is playing more modern plays now.

So M?ller too thinks, that Fettes Brot and Low Saxon have some kind of cult
status in the North of German. There are more people feeling like me ;-)

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 16:33:08 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:33:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.093308.0700.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.29 (02) [E]

from heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>

Paul wrote: But the the armoured vehicle only got its name because a British
officer thought the prototype looked like a water tank!

Not so, Paul! The development of the vehicle was v hush-hush so when
transporting parts for assembly or the finished product, the containers /
boxes/ crates they were in were marked as TANKS both on the outside of the
crates etc and on the movement inventories.

bw

Heather

----------

From: Kevin and Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.29 (02) [E]
"To tank" can also mean something like "to fail" or even "to plummet, to
drop sharply" (as in, "The price of the stock tanked yesterday").

Kevinb Caldwell
From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.28 (05) [E]

At 11:33 PM 28/06/2008, Kevin Caldwell wrote:

There is also the phrase "to be in the tank (for someone)," meaning to be
> someone's supporter, and usually implying that the person being supported
> has paid off the supporter or promised some favor, or suggesting that
> someone who should be impartial is really working to help one side.
>

There's also the expression, "he tanked," which is derived from "to be
tanked" i.e. to be so drunk as to be thrown in jail.  It now seems to have a
much broader meaning, something like to have such a bad performance as to be
removed from the sport.  E.g.:  "Yet on Tuesday Taylor told reporters in
Minnesota that Garnett "tanked it" when he sat out last season's final five
games to go to California to get his sore right knee checked. Team officials
publicly supported Garnett's decision at the time it was announced."

Ed Alexander

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 17:10:53 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:10:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.30 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.101053.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Lowlanners, Reinhard,

these days I came across the word LS _Klu(u)f_,_Klu(u)v_, used in the idiom
'Dat hebb ick oppp'n Kluuv', G: 'da lauert Gefahr', Northern German
dialect: *'Das habe ich auf Sicht'*, E: 'I fear sth. could be dangerous'.

I wonder about this word; the only connection I see could be LS
'kl?f-(v-)tig', which could be translated into G(!): 'raffiniert', 'clever',
but E: 'tricky'.

Does anyone, in special our Dutch neighbours, find any further related words
which could give answer about the roots?


Allerbest, and thanks in award!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hey, Jonster!

Hmm ... I rather assume it comes from *kluuv'* (*Kluuv* ~ *Kluw* [klu??v] <
*kluve* [?klu?ve]), dialectical variant of *klau* (*Klau* [kla?u] <
*klaue*[?kla?ue]) and
*klaaw'* (*Klaaw ~ Klaw** *[kl???v] < *klawe* [?kl??ve]). If I remember
correctly, Middle Saxon has *kluve* ~ *kluwe* and *klawe*. These are
cognates of German *Klaue* and English *claw*, with the same meaning. A
derivation from *kluuv'* is *kluven* 'to pick (up from the ground)', 'to
glean', and a derivation from *klau* is *klauen* 'to steal'; cf. German *
klauben* and *klauen*.

In the idiomatic phrase you mentioned, I imagine a cat about to pounce or
already "playing" with a little furry or feathered victim ...

As for *kl?ftig*, I am not sure if it's derived from *Kluft* 'abyss' or *
kluft* 'outfit', 'duds'. I rather suspect the latter, hence in the sense of
looking and seeming smart and nifty in a special outfit, then extended to
'smart' generally' and then to 'sharp', 'shrewd', 'scheming', 'sly'.
*Kluft*in the sense of 'outfit' started as a Rotwelsch word and goes
back to Hebrew
??????? *qill?ph* 'shell', 'pod', probably assimilated to the other *Kluft*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: If the usual pattern holds and our Pacific Northwest weather drifts
over to the European Lowlands, then brace yourselves, folks, for a heatwave
is headed your way! For us it's been from unseasonably cool to unseasonably
hot. Across the street I can see construction workers slaving away in the
sun. Poor guys!
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 18:44:00 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:44:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.114400.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.29 (04) [E]

Beste Marcus,

in your last posting you quoted Ina M?ller:

> I actually think it is hip at the moment to boost cult icons. For example
the FC St. Pauli [local soccer club of Hamburg which has a devoted
> followership that tries to stand off the more mainstream Hamburger SV].
Their T-shirts with the skulls and bones are a hit even in Denmark.
> Or look at the band Fettes Brot. In their age group they are cult just
like the comic character Werner Beinhart for the older ones is. And Low
> Saxon too is in this category. That's shown by the popularity of our
shows. It's got a drive of it's own. Maybe cause it feels younger and more >
 modern with us. Even the Ohnsorg-Theater is playing more modern plays now.

But the interview went on:

*(quote)*
*Question of the interviewer:* "Der globalisierte Mensch auf der Suche nach
einer Heimat oder einer Abgrenzung?"["The globalized people looking for a
home or distinction?"]

*Answer of Mr. Dibaba:* "So hoch w?rde ich das nicht h?ngen. Vielleicht ist
es auch nur ganz schlicht ein Trend, mit dem sich gut Geld verdienen
l?sst."['I wouldn't overprice it. Perhaps it is just a trend to earn
good money."]
*(unquote)*

And that's it where 'our' Ina M?ller is really capable- I have no doubt
about it!
But some doubts are coming when I hear her words imply that she grew up with
LS as her main language- she is born A.D 1965, and then even in K?hlen (a
village near Bremerhaven, Germany) people normally could speak Standard
German ;-)... Maybe she grew up within a mixture of LS and Northern German
dialect and just was unable to learn both languages:

*(quote)*
*Question:*
Auff?llig bei Ihnen beiden ist, dass Sie ausgerechnet mit einer Sprache
Karriere machen, die eigentlich als Karrierekiller gilt. Oder haben Sie
andere Erfahrungen gemacht? [For both of you it is noticeable that you made
your carreers with a language looked upon as a carreer killer. Or did you
make different experiences?]

*Answer of Mrs. M?ller:*

Nicht wirklich. Als ich damals an die Schule im n?chsten gr??eren Ort *
wechselte*, da war es f?r uns nach Kuhstall *stinkenden* D?rfler, mit
Plattdeutsch *geschlagen*, nicht wirklich lustig. Das ist kein Vorwurf an
meine Eltern, um das gleich zu sagen, denen war es einfach egal, ob ihre
Kinder Plattdeutsch oder Hochdeutsch sprachen. Die haben ?ber so etwas gar
nicht nachgedacht. Aber f?r ein Kind ist es schwierig, *pl?tzlich* Worte in
einer Sprache zu schreiben, die *total fremd* ist. Ein Albtraum. [Not
really. When I changed to a school in the neighboured bigger village, it
wasn't pleasant at all for us 'rednecks' with the smell of cow stables,
beaten with Low Saxon. I don't want to blame my parents ...; they didn't
mind us to talk either Low Saxon or Standard German. They didn't make any
thoughts about this. But for a child it is really difficult to write
abruptly in a totally strange language. A nightmare.]

*(unquote)*
Vulgar, stupid and with some inconsistency, for my humble opinion.

Once again Low Saxon gets moved into the 'Schmuddelecke' ['figurative place
for all that is considered dirty and taboo']. Or, not better but sounding
less cruel: Low Saxon just as a medium for 'Volksbelustigung' ['to make
people laugh']!?
But perhaps this curious and not at all new trend really will help to renew
Low Saxon in a very special way- "Geld regiert die Welt" ("money rules the
world")...

Meanwhile I don't care about this any longer.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Jonny. I'm rather inclined to agree with your sentiments on the
whole.

I'm not in the business of trashing people, and I don't really know very
much about Ina M?ller. However, I do know that an important part of her
shtik is abrasive, sharp-tongued, irreverent humor with strong feminist
overtones, sometimes spoofing "proper ladies." That's all fine and dandy,
and I approve of well-placed irreverent humor as long as it is not
mean-spirited and is not merely a put-on twist for cornering a commercial
market.

Aside from what you wrote, Jonny, the interview left a weird taste in my
mouth with regard to Ina, a co-interviewee, sometimes taking on the
interviewer's role by asking Yared questions and then making what seem like
value judgments about his responses on top of it.

Ina M?ller:
Moment, bevor Du weiter erz?hlst, wenn ich reinkomme und sage, Moin, Moin,
dann sagst Du ...?
Just a sec. Before you go on ... When I enter and say, "Moin, moin," you say
...?

Dibaba:
Atam!
"Atam!"

(I would have said, "Moin, moin!" if I were him.)

M?ller:
Komisches Wort. Atam h?rt sich f?r mich nach Attacke an: Atam, Atam! Moin,
moin ist viel sch?ner, runder.
Weird word. "Atam" sounds like an attack: "Atam, Atam!" "Moin, moin" is much
more beautiful, rounder.

And the point is ...? What does this value judgment have to do with the
price of tea in China? "My language is prettier than yours"? In my opinion,
these interjections are inappropriate and aggressive and don't exactly come
across as informed. The introduction to the interview talks about Yared
Dibaba being used to dealing with "strong women" next to him at work and
being able to hold his own. I have no problem whatsoever with "strong women"
as long as they know what they are talking about and don't act the fool.
Dibaba:
Und? Was willst Du uns damit sagen?
So? What is it you're trying to say?

M?ller:
Dass Moin sich sch?ner anh?rt, mehr nicht. ...
That "Moin" sounds nicer. That's all. ...
Good for him!

M?ller:
Die Kombination ist aber auch zu nett: Ein Schwarzer, der im Norden eine
Sendung moderiert, die "Die Welt op Platt" hei?t.
The combination is totally cute: a black man moderating a northern program
called "Die Welt op Platt" ...

No one asked you, Ina! Leave it to the readers to deal with their own
prejudicial takes!

Yared, who belongs to an Oromo refugee family from Ethiopia, talks about
challenges he faced in school, and Ina butts in again ...

M?ller:
Du Armer! Und dann mit diesem Sprachengewirr. Das war aber auch ganz sch?n
gemein von Deinen Eltern, Dich ?berall hinzuschleppen und diesem
Sprachen-Babylon auszusetzen. ...
You poor thing! And then this language jumble on top of it! It was totally
mean of your parents to drag you all over and expose you to this Bable
situation. ...
Asked if he uses Low Saxon in everyday life ...

Dibaba:
In Hamburg macht das kaum noch jemand. Au?erdem ist meine Frau Portugiesin,
mein ?ltester Sohn kommt auf eine deutsche Schule, und wenn ich meine Leute
treffe, dann sprechen wir Oromo. Plattdeutsch brauche ich tats?chlich fast
nur noch f?rs Fernsehen. Aber Du tr?umst doch wahrscheinlich sogar auf
Platt, oder, Ina?
Hardly anybody does so in Hamburg these days. Besides, my wife is
Portuguese, my oldest son is going to go to a German-speaking school, and I
speak Oromo when I get together with my people. I use Low Saxon mostly on TV
these days. I take it you dream in Low Saxon, Ina. Or?

M?ller:
Stimmt. Vor allem aber denke ich auf Platt. Ich bin schlie?lich eine Frau.
That's right. But most importantly, I *think *in Low Saxon. I'm a woman,
after all.

(Excuse me?! Perhaps she should stop making fun of ditsy women, unless she
means to include herself.)

Dibaba:
Wie konnte ich vergessen: Ich denke nicht, also bin ich Mann. Danke f?r den
Hinweis.
How could I have forgotten that? I don't think; so me man. Thanks for the
hint.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 20:41:40 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:41:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.30 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.134140.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.29 (03) [E]

Yes, you wonder right.
Ivison, what is the origin of the O + A articles in Portuguese?
In Spanish it's EL + LA, in Italian IL + LA, in French LE + LA?
I know Ptg dropped its middle L and N - I guess the word Portuguese is
from PortugaLese itself - so may O and A be from eLo and eLa?
And was "elo" the neuter article, I'd expect masculine to end in -e "eLe"?

Ciao, obrigado
Ingmar


From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: Determiners

Hi you all,

 What is the origin of the Den Det (with adjectives) articles in modern
Scandinavian languages?
 I wonder if they may derive from some kind of demonstratives.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 20:43:23 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:43:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.30 (05) [D]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.134323.0700.>

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.23 (01) [E]

Beste,
In Oostende was het liedje:

Macadam, macadam, macadam, dam, dam dam, oempa, oempa!

Het werd voornamelijk gezongen bij het marcheren om de kadans er in te
houden!

Roland Desnerck
Oostende
West-Vlaanderen

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 20:45:43 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:45:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.30 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.134543.0700.>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Words" 2008.06.30 (01) [E]

from heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

more re the tank

I asked my husband about this just to check I had got it right. His gt-uncle
was one of the team that developed the tank and we have just been given some
of his papers including a 1917 Christmas card with a drawing of a tank on
it! and a photo of the whole development team.

Apparently in order to keep the whole development secret, the work being
undertaken by the group was given out as ' the development of mobile water
tanks' to bring water in quantity to the battle field! So crates of machines
were stencilled WATER TANKS on the side and eventually this was shortened by
everyone to just TANKS and the name stuck.

bw

Heather

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 22:50:22 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:50:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.30 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.155022.0700.>

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From: Stan Levinson <stlev99 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.30 (04) [E]

Ingmar,
To add some interest to this non-Lowlands Question, you might find
interesting that in Sicilian, the definite articles are EITHER "o" or
"lo"/"lu" (feminine a/la), with the difference being, I believe, regional.
My knowledge is not first-hand.
Stan

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2008.06.29 (03) [E]

Yes, you wonder right.
Ivison, what is the origin of the O + A articles in Portuguese?
In Spanish it's EL + LA, in Italian IL + LA, in French LE + LA?
I know Ptg dropped its middle L and N - I guess the word Portuguese is
from PortugaLese itself - so may O and A be from eLo and eLa?
And was "elo" the neuter article, I'd expect masculine to end in -e "eLe"?

Ciao, obrigado
Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Demonstrative pronouns in *Latin*:

Singular:
masculine: *ille*
feminine: *illa*
neuter: *illud*

Plural:
masculine: *illi*
feminine: *illae*
neuter: *illa*

Definite articles in *Italian*:

Singular:
masculine: *il*, *lo*
feminine: *la***

Plural:
masculine: *gli*
feminine: *le***

Demonstrative pronouns in *Old Norse*:

Singular:
masculine: *sa*
feminine: *s?*
neuter: *?at*
* *
Plural:
masculine: *?eir***
feminine: *??r*
neuter: *?au***

Demonstrative pronouns in *Old English*:

Singular:
masculine: *se***
feminine: *se?*
neuter: *?**?**t***
* *
Plural:
all: *?a***

Demonstrative pronouns in *Old Frisian*:

Singular:
masculine: *th**?***
feminine: *thiu*
neuter: *th**et***
* *
Plural:
all: *tha***
 **
Demonstrative pronouns in *Old Saxon*:

Singular:
masculine: *se, thi*,* thie*****
feminine: *thiu*, *the*
neuter: *tha**t*, *the***
* *
Plural:
masculine: *thia*,* thie*,* the*
feminine: *thia*,* **the*
neuter: *thiu*,* thia*

Demonstrative pronouns in *Gothic*:

Singular:
masculine: *sa*******
feminine: *s**?***
neuter: *?ata*****
* *
Plural:
masculine: *?ai***
feminine: *?**?s***
neuter: *?**?***
**
*
*Demonstrative pronouns in *Sanskrit*:

Singular:
masculine: ??? *s??*****
feminine: ?? *s?***
neuter: ??? *ta**t*****
* *
Plural:
masculine: ?? *s**e*
feminine: ??? *t**?**?***
neuter: ???? *t**?ni*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron**
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 30 23:59:41 2008
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:59:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.30 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.30.JUN.2008.165941.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.30 (03) [E]

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>>
- Hide quoted text -

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.29 (04) [E]

Beste Marcus,
 in your last posting you quoted Ina M?ller:
 > I actually think it is hip at the moment to boost cult icons. For example
the FC St. Pauli [local soccer club of Hamburg which has a devoted
> followership that tries to stand off the more mainstream Hamburger SV].
Their T-shirts with the skulls and bones are a hit even in Denmark.
> Or look at the band Fettes Brot. In their age group they are cult just
like the comic character Werner Beinhart for the older ones is. And Low >
Saxon too is in this category. That's shown by the popularity of our shows.
It's got a drive of it's own. Maybe cause it feels younger and more >
 modern with us. Even the Ohnsorg-Theater is playing more modern plays now.
 But the interview went on:
 *(quote)*
_Question of the interviewer:_ "Der globalisierte Mensch auf der Suche nach
einer Heimat oder einer Abgrenzung?"["The globalized people looking for a
home or distinction?"]
 _Answer of Mr. Dibaba:_ "So hoch w?rde ich das nicht h?ngen. Vielleicht ist
es auch nur ganz schlicht ein Trend, mit dem sich gut Geld verdienen l?sst."
['I wouldn't overprice it. Perhaps it is just a trend to earn good money."]
*(unquote)*
 And that's it where 'our' Ina M?ller is really capable- I have no doubt
about it!
But some doubts are coming when I hear her words imply that she grew up with
LS as her main language- she is born A.D 1965, and then even in K?hlen (a
village near Bremerhaven, Germany) people normally could speak Standard
German ;-)... Maybe she grew up within a mixture of LS and Northern German
dialect and just was unable to learn both languages:
 *(quote)*
_Question:_
Auff?llig bei Ihnen beiden ist, dass Sie ausgerechnet mit einer Sprache
Karriere machen, die eigentlich als Karrierekiller gilt. Oder haben Sie
andere Erfahrungen gemacht? [For both of you it is noticeable that you made
your carreers with a language looked upon as a carreer killer. Or did you
make different experiences?]

_Answer of Mrs. M?ller:_

Nicht wirklich. Als ich damals an die Schule im n?chsten gr??eren Ort
_wechselte_, da war es f?r uns nach Kuhstall _stinkenden_ D?rfler, mit
Plattdeutsch _geschlagen_, nicht wirklich lustig. Das ist kein Vorwurf an
meine Eltern, um das gleich zu sagen, denen war es einfach egal, ob ihre
Kinder Plattdeutsch oder Hochdeutsch sprachen. Die haben ?ber so etwas gar
nicht nachgedacht. Aber f?r ein Kind ist es schwierig, _pl?tzlich_ Worte in
einer Sprache zu schreiben, die _total fremd_ ist. Ein Albtraum. [Not
really. When I changed to a school in the neighboured bigger village, it
wasn't pleasant at all for us 'rednecks' with the smell of cow stables,
beaten with Low Saxon. I don't want to blame my parents ...; they didn't
mind us to talk either Low Saxon or Standard German. They didn't make any
thoughts about this. But for a child it is really difficult to write
abruptly in a totally strange language. A nightmare.]

*(unquote)*

Vulgar, stupid and with some inconsistency, for my humble opinion.
 Once again Low Saxon gets moved into the 'Schmuddelecke' ['figurative place
for all that is considered dirty and taboo']. Or, not better but sounding
less cruel: Low Saxon just as a medium for 'Volksbelustigung' ['to make
people laugh']!?
But perhaps this curious and not at all new trend really will help to renew
Low Saxon in a very special way- "Geld regiert die Welt" ("money rules the
world")...
 Meanwhile I don't care about this any longer.
 Allerbest!
 Jonny Meibohm

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

Subject: Etymology
>
> Thanks, Jonny. I'm rather inclined to agree with your sentiments on the
> whole.
>
> I'm not in the business of trashing people, and I don't really know very
> much about Ina M?ller. However, I do know that an important part of her
> shtik is abrasive, sharp-tongued, irreverent humor with strong feminist
> overtones, sometimes spoofing "proper ladies." That's all fine and dandy,
> and I approve of well-placed irreverent humor as long as it is not
> mean-spirited and is not merely a put-on twist for cornering a commercial
> market.
>
> Aside from what you wrote, Jonny, the interview left a weird taste in my
> mouth with regard to Ina, a co-interviewee, sometimes taking on the
> interviewer's role by asking Yared questions and then making what seem like
> value judgments about his responses on top of it.
>
> Ina M?ller:
> Moment, bevor Du weiter erz?hlst, wenn ich reinkomme und sage, Moin, Moin,
> dann sagst Du ...?
> Just a sec. Before you go on ... When I enter and say, "Moin, moin," you
> say ...?
>
> Dibaba:
> Atam!
> "Atam!"
>
> (I would have said, "Moin, moin!" if I were him.)
>
> M?ller:
> Komisches Wort. Atam h?rt sich f?r mich nach Attacke an: Atam, Atam! Moin,
> moin ist viel sch?ner, runder.
> Weird word. "Atam" sounds like an attack: "Atam, Atam!" "Moin, moin" is
> much more beautiful, rounder.
>
> And the point is ...? What does this value judgment have to do with the
> price of tea in China? "My language is prettier than yours"? In my opinion,
> these interjections are inappropriate and aggressive and don't exactly come
> across as informed. The introduction to the interview talks about Yared
> Dibaba being used to dealing with "strong women" next to him at work and
> being able to hold his own. I have no problem whatsoever with "strong women"
> as long as they know what they are talking about and don't act the fool.
>
> Dibaba:
> Und? Was willst Du uns damit sagen?
> So? What is it you're trying to say?
>
> M?ller:
> Dass Moin sich sch?ner anh?rt, mehr nicht. ...
> That "Moin" sounds nicer. That's all. ...
>
> Good for him!
>
> M?ller:
> Die Kombination ist aber auch zu nett: Ein Schwarzer, der im Norden eine
> Sendung moderiert, die "Die Welt op Platt" hei?t.
> The combination is totally cute: a black man moderating a northern program
> called "Die Welt op Platt" ...
>
> No one asked you, Ina! Leave it to the readers to deal with their own
> prejudicial takes!
>
> Yared, who belongs to an Oromo refugee family from Ethiopia, talks about
> challenges he faced in school, and Ina butts in again ...
>
> M?ller:
> Du Armer! Und dann mit diesem Sprachengewirr. Das war aber auch ganz sch?n
> gemein von Deinen Eltern, Dich ?berall hinzuschleppen und diesem
> Sprachen-Babylon auszusetzen. ...
> You poor thing! And then this language jumble on top of it! It was totally
> mean of your parents to drag you all over and expose you to this Bable
> situation. ...
>
> Asked if he uses Low Saxon in everyday life ...
>
> Dibaba:
> In Hamburg macht das kaum noch jemand. Au?erdem ist meine Frau Portugiesin,
> mein ?ltester Sohn kommt auf eine deutsche Schule, und wenn ich meine Leute
> treffe, dann sprechen wir Oromo. Plattdeutsch brauche ich tats?chlich fast
> nur noch f?rs Fernsehen. Aber Du tr?umst doch wahrscheinlich sogar auf
> Platt, oder, Ina?
> Hardly anybody does so in Hamburg these days. Besides, my wife is
> Portuguese, my oldest son is going to go to a German-speaking school, and I
> speak Oromo when I get together with my people. I use Low Saxon mostly on TV
> these days. I take it you dream in Low Saxon, Ina. Or?
>
> M?ller:
> Stimmt. Vor allem aber denke ich auf Platt. Ich bin schlie?lich eine Frau.
> That's right. But most importantly, I /think /in Low Saxon. I'm a woman,
> after all.
>
> (Excuse me?! Perhaps she should stop making fun of ditsy women, unless she
> means to include herself.)
>
> Dibaba:
> Wie konnte ich vergessen: Ich denke nicht, also bin ich Mann. Danke f?r den
> Hinweis.
> How could I have forgotten that? I don't think; so me man. Thanks for the
> hint.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Well, it's rather simple. Ina M?ller doesn't care about "political correct
and diplomatic talk". She just say's what she's feeling. Saying "'Moin Moin'
sounds nicer than 'Aram'" maybe is not politically correct and not
linguistically justifiable, cause every language is a system of its own with
very own rules about what words sound like attacks and which do not. But
M?ller is not a linguist and not the secretary general of the United
Nations. There's no need for talking diplomatic. She just said what the word
sounded like for her. When she talks about "nach Kuhstall _stinkende_
D?rfler", she does not say she thinks so, but that she felt treated like
that.

Ina's humor indeed is sharp-tongued and she doesn't mince matters ("nimmt
kein Blatt vor den Mund"), but she really is not abrasive or irreverent.
Have you ever seen "Land und Liebe" or "Inas Nacht"? She does not hesitate
to give somebody a bonk on the nose ("jemanden einen Nasenst?ber
versetzen"), but she really does not put down anybody.

She is honest and "free rut". I like her for that, cause many people say
nice words all day long, but don't care about their words. Ina does not try
to be everbody's darling by uttering nice words. She just tries to be
herself, no stuccoed facade, just Northern German brick.
That's a typical villager feature in my opinion. Villagers don't know
"Grootsnutigkeit" (boastfullyness) and "Glattsnacken" (talking
sweet/toadying), they are more down to earth and honest and "free rut".
Well, of course there are Grootsnuten and Glattsnackers among the villagers
too and many honest and unboastful people in the cities, but the city tends
to be more aloof.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Culture

Thanks a lot, Marcus.

I sure appreciate your take on this (and you know more about Ina M?ller than
I do). I just went by what I read in the interview, and things like saying
that refugee parents dragging their children all over Babylon are mean seems
a bit ... well, dumb to me. No, one doesn't have to qualify for the post of
UN Secretary General, but one can do just a bit of thinking before speaking.
But perhaps I misunderstood it and it was meant to be some sort of joke that
I don't get.

I see nothing wrong with irreverence, at least not well-place irreverence
that that doesn't put people down and involves thinking and challenging the
status quo.

"Free rut" is fine, especially at home where everyone pretty much thinks and
acts the same. In this day and age of constant inter-cultural
shoulder-rubbing, however, a modicum of tact and politeness is warranted, I
feel. This has nothing to do with toadying, just as not making comments to
people's faces about their looks, dress or ways of walking is not toadying.
Also, I hardly think that diplomacy is by definition dishonest. It's a
matter of restraint.

Anyway, it's quite possible I'm misunderstanding and misjudging this person.
Who knows? Just for having said these things I might end up in one room with
her someday ... At least then I'd find out.

In the meantime I watched a couple of videos of her performances, and it
seems to me that she is a "typical" stand-up comedian, though with a singing
twist, that *relies* on "naughtiness". In the US, imagine Cathy Griffin
spiking her routines with songs.

And here she claims that Low Saxon in not "a language in its own right" (*eine
eigenst?ndige Sprache*) but *eine eigene Fremdsprache* ("its own foreign
language"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozQR3BnfFgg&amp

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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