From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 15:51:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:51:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2009.06.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.1.JUN.2009.085144.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to Lowlands-L in June of the year 2009!

Lilac, Wisteria and Hawthorn are in full bloom here. I hope it is beautiful
where you are, and you in the Southern Hemisphere enjoy the fruits of
autumn.

Before the usual list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:

*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*

*List Mail vs Private Mail
*Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List.

*Rejected Mail
*Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.

*Language Codes
*In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ( [ ] ). This indicate which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:

lowlands-l.net/codes.php

You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.

*
Projects
*Please don't forget about our activities, especially now that we are
approaching our 14th anniversary (!):

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
   - Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)
   - Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)
   - History (lowlands-l.net/history/ <http://lowlands-l.net/travels/>)
   - Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Beyond the Pale
(lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

All of them have growing numbers of visitors.

If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address (sassisch at yahoo.com) to
propose or ask and also to send your works.

The resource guide is now here: http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/

>From there you can get to the shops that eventually may (or may not) help to
cover some of the cost of running Lowlands-L:
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php

If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L.

*
REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*


*Rules*
A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:

   - Do not mix topics.
   - Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you
   respond. It is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a
   subject line.
   - When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
   portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
   response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
   then.

Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php


Another request:

Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.

*Membership
*As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
   your view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.
   2. You must always give us your name, given name and family name.
   3. If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give
   us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
   something in case we get error messages from that server.
   4. You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
   simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.
   5. Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making
   up your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make
   sure "Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.
   6. DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.
   7. Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their
   names with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting
   is not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
   even if you do not put them right next to each other.

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

   1. Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things
   up, please.
   2. Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
   responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
   apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.
   3. Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
   response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
   not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
   version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
   relevant to your response.
   4. Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are.
   If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L"
   as the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
   authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.
   5. Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
   sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.

*Change of Address*
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address.

*Temporary Absence*
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.


Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
sassisch at yahoo.com
Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
_____

Welcome to those who joined us since the beginning of May 2009! They live in
the following places:

*Australia:
*     Victoria:
          Bundoora [1]
*Netherland*s (Nederland):*
*     Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland):
          Vlaardingen [1]
*New Zealand* (Aotearoa):*
*     Auckland (Tāmaki-makau-rau):
          Auckland (Tāmaki-makau-rau) [1]
*United Kingdom:
 *    Greater London:
          London [1]
*United States of America:
*     Minnesota:
          St. Paul [1]

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090601/f5aace7f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 19:38:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:38:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administratia" 2009.06.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.1.JUN.2009.123854.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to Lowlands-L in June of the year 2009!

Lilac, Wisteria and Hawthorn are in full bloom here. I hope it is beautiful
where you are, and you in the Southern Hemisphere enjoy the fruits of
autumn.

Before the usual list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:

*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*

*List Mail vs Private Mail
*Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List.

*Rejected Mail
*Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.

*Language Codes
*In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ( [ ] ). This indicate which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:

lowlands-l.net/codes.php

You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.

*
Projects
*Please don't forget about our activities, especially now that we are
approaching our 14th anniversary (!):

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
   - Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)
   - Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)
   - History (lowlands-l.net/history/ <http://lowlands-l.net/travels/>)
   - Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Beyond the Pale
(lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

All of them have growing numbers of visitors.

If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address (sassisch at yahoo.com) to
propose or ask and also to send your works.

The resource guide is now here: http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/

>From there you can get to the shops that eventually may (or may not) help to
cover some of the cost of running Lowlands-L:
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php

If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L.

*
REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*


*Rules*
A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:

   - Do not mix topics.
   - Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you
   respond. It is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a
   subject line.
   - When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
   portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
   response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
   then.

Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php


Another request:

Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.

*Membership
*As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
   your view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.
   2. You must always give us your name, given name and family name.
   3. If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give
   us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
   something in case we get error messages from that server.
   4. You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
   simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.
   5. Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making
   up your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make
   sure "Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.
   6. DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.
   7. Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their
   names with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting
   is not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
   even if you do not put them right next to each other.

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

   1. Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things
   up, please.
   2. Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
   responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
   apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.
   3. Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
   response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
   not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
   version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
   relevant to your response.
   4. Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are.
   If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L"
   as the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
   authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.
   5. Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
   sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.

*Change of Address*
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address.

*Temporary Absence*
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.


Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
sassisch at yahoo.com
Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
_____

Welcome to those who joined us since the beginning of May 2009! They live in
the following places:

*Australia:
*     Victoria:
          Bundoora [1]
*Netherland*s (Nederland):*
*     Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland):
          Vlaardingen [1]
*New Zealand* (Aotearoa):*
*     Auckland (Tāmaki-makau-rau):
          Auckland (Tāmaki-makau-rau) [1]
*United Kingdom:
 *    Greater London:
          London [1]
*United States of America:
*     Minnesota:
          St. Paul [1]

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090601/6c18fbb0/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 19:42:03 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:42:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.01 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.1.JUN.2009.124203.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Hey Lowlanders!

I've been busy trying to not make my schoolwork the whole day so I finally
recorded a sound file for my Wren translation
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-antwerpen.php
 and put up a draft for a Standard Brabantish one
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-standard.php

About that last one I wanted the opinions of our other members from Brabant
here, especially Luc and Roger since they come from southern Brabant.
A short summary on the intentions of this project, which I wanted to post a
while ago already - but now this is a better occasion to bring it out on
LLL:
I am working on a standard written language for the Brabantish dialects,
i.e. the ones in Belgian Brabant. Noord-Brabant in the Netherlands was
originally in the plan too, but there the deviation is too big in sounds,
grammar, vocabulary etc, while the Belgian part of the old Duchy is a lo
more homogenous - thus allowing to make a writing system without too many
sideforms, without having to set up 5 different allowed forms for each word
etc.
The intention is not to give a phonetic representation of a particular Brab.
dialect. That's what the Brabantse Referentiespelling guys did, and I think
their spelling sucks. It is not because I come from Antwerp and I pronounce
all my short /i/'s 'sharper' and more closed that I should replace every /i/
by an /ie/ when I write dialect, making it look ridiculous. And there's no
reason to write the ei and ij, and ui as aaj and oaj or something similar,
when you as well can make a standard with ei, ij, ui which looks more
respectable, people are more used to it and you can just set up
pronunciationrule: ui is prounounced oaj. And up north in the province of
Antwerp, they pronounce it èù and èè, but they have no reason to write it
that way either. The only spelling to unify Brabantish is by using what we
have from the Dutch tradition and form it into something that represents our
phonology (but not phonetics) and grammar.

For this reason one writes /h/ as well, except in words like et/het
(optional h, as even in h-retaining dialects one pronounces it 'et', and
there is no etymological reason to write the /h/ either), 'm (hem).
This does not mean that one would have to pronounce this h, and if you come
from a h-less area it is not less 'your' Brabantish just because h's are
written. If this standard language wants to have equal prestige as any other
written language and not just be "funny written Dutch" certain rules like
ui, ei and the h have to be followed in my opinion.

But where the SYSTEM goes against Dutch, we write differently. As vowel
shortening for example, almost obligatory in Br.
Long vowels ar eshortened to their short counterpart, and
ui > ö
ei/ij > e (/a/ in a smaller area, but not representative enough, and in
younger dialect in for example Antw. rapidly being replaced by /e/ anyway)
aa > o or ö. Here it's hard to make one single choice, as o vs. ö depends
from word to word, in some o being almost the only option in the whole area,
in others ö being spread over 1/2 of the area. Therefor it's easiest to
accept both variants, so the writer can decide in which words he uses o and
in which ö. The north-east of province antwerp has shortening to /a/, but
this area is not extensive enough to consider a third variety - the two most
used are already complicated enough.
ië to i
oë to oe or ö, except in "oëk" ('ook') where it is oek or ok (as the usual
ö-area has o in this word without excceptions)
uë to u

Umlaut occurs without exception in those words which have it all over both
provinces, loke Germanic ô and â: zuke, kèès, vule, etc. Umlaut of au is
optional, so geloëve next to geluëve. The South-West corner of Vl.Brabant
has uë for all Germanic au's, with and without umlaut, so they will have to
stick to the dominating oë everywhere.

Short Dutch o in front of nk, ng, m and  few other words is still a problem,
as joenk, loemp, etc dominate, but oep and loecht (lucht) for example have a
much less wide range. So far I have put short oe and o next to eachother,
but I still want to solve this problem, following the Standard language
chosing /o/ would be most logical, but chosing /oe/ would maybe make it more
brabantish and create more clear distantiation.

Deletion of final -d in verb endings after long vowel so far has been left
optional, as it seems most of Vlaams Brabant retains this? in words as
gezee[d], ge zij[d] or ge zè[d], hij hee[d], etc.

So here is a sample of the proposed spelling system:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-standard.php
 Where variation is allowed, hold your mouse pointer over the underlined
word to see what other variants are allowed so far.

ANY feedback, comments etc. are more than welcome. If there are things you
feel make it too distant and too little usable for you as a Brabantish
speaker, please tell me what points I still need to work out better. Well I
suppose you know what to do:)
Cheers!

Diederik

PS: nou for 'normal' nu and ou for 'u', 'jou' usually evoke a lot of
reaction/resistance and seem very 'hollandic' to most. However they are the
only acceptable standard written forms. They are usually pronounced naa or
nei, aa or ei or similar, but then again most other ou's are as well, as
"haave" 'houden > houwen', and a similar u > ou we have in douwen,
houwelijk, spouwen pronounced as daave/deive, speive and so on.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090601/8a3f79ee/attachment.html>

From sassisch at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  2 16:23:35 2009
From: sassisch at YAHOO.COM (R. F. Hahn)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:23:35 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUN.2009.092335.0700.>

delete quiet lowlands-l ruessel panisman at erols.com
add lowlands-l ruessel panisman at gmail.com

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090602/44ef57c2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  2 03:44:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:44:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.01 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.1.JUN.2009.204427.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Vogel des Jahres

Best' Ron un all' Lowlanders,

tau disse Tied is rundüm ein Fläuten un Singen, dat hett mi anroegt, nu ehr
Namens up Plattdüütsch tau vermellen.

1971 Wanderfalke : allgem. Falk (?) dat krieg ick noch rut
1972 Steinkauz : Dodenvagel
1973 Eisvogel : Iesvagel, Ißvagel s. 2009
1974 Mehlschwalbe : Swoelk, Finsterswoelk
1975 Gold(regenpfeifer) : Tütvagel, Vagel Tüt, Tüten
1976 Wiedehopf : Hupup, Huppup, Hupuhp
1977 Schleiereule : Tormuhl, Schnorkuhl
1978 Kranich : Kraun, Kroon, Muskant
1979 Rauchschwalbe : Swoelk, Stallswoelk
1980 Birkhuhn : Barkhauhn, Barckhoon
1981 Schwarzspecht : Rägenvagel (Regenruf "prüh, prüh, prüh")
1982 Großer Brachvogel : Vagel Tüt, Rägenvagel, Rägenfläuter, Wärervagel,
Watervagel (Braakvagel ?)
1983 Uferschwalbe : Sandswoelk
1984 Weißstorch : Adebar, Adebor, Poggenbieter, Had'bar, Musche Langbein
1985 Neuntöter : Nägenmürder
1986 Saatkrähe : Ackerkreih
1987 Braunkehlchen : Brunböster (braune Brust)
1988 Wendehals : Dreihhhals (verdreht den Hals. Wennehals ist falsch)
1989 Teichrohrsänger : Familie Grasmücke, Gesang, Gefieder wie
Drosselrohrsänger, de lütte Ruhrsparling, Korl-Kiek, Reitpieper
1990 Pirol : Vagel Bülow, Pingstvagel, Schult von Bülow (Schult :
Bürgermeister)
1991 Rebhuhn : Rapphauhn
1992 Rotkehlchen : Rodböster (rote Brust), singendes R. hören, bedeutet
Glück,  1) siehe mein Gedicht
1993 Flussregenpfeifer : Tütvagel, Rägentüt
1994 Weißstorch s. 1984
1995 Nachtigall : Nachtigall, Nachtigal, Fläutjehann, Trillerine,
Achtervagel
1996 Kiebitz : Kiwitt
1997 Buntspecht : Knorrenspecht, Bomhacker, Holthauger
1998 Feldlerche : Lerche, Lewark, Lierk
1999 Goldammer : Gälgoss, Gälgaus, Gälgöschen
2000 Rotmilan : Twälstiert (gegabelter Stoß), Wieh, Huweh, Huwieh
2001 Haubentaucher : Dükervagel, Seehahn, Seedüker, Düker(t)
2002 Haussperling/Spatz : Sparling, Lünk (Sprei, Spree gilt für Sperling und
Star)
2003 Mauersegler : Tuurnswoelk, Tormswoelk
2004 Zaunkönig : Nettelkönig, Tunkrüper, Schneekönig, Sneikönig, Grot Jochen
2005 Uhu : Schuhu, Schuhuu, Schuhut, Schufot, Dodenvagel
2006 Kleiber : Kleimer (Lehmbauer, de Soelken kleimen ok ehr Nest)
2007 Turmfalke : Tuurnfalk, Steinfalk, Rüttelfalk, Roetelfalk, Thurmhavk
2008 Kuckuck : Kukuk
2009 Eisvogel : Ißvagel, Iesvagel, hei hett Glück as'n Iesvagel. (s. 1973)

1) *Rodböster *(Vogel des Jahres 1992)

Rodböster, Rodböster,
din Kähl lücht' so rod.
Wat sall dat bedüden,
kümmst du nu bitiden
womoeglich in Not?

Denn' Abend, denn' Abend
süngst du dor för mi?
Dat klüng' all' so trurig
un ick set' so lurig,
ick stah di je bi.

Lütt Vagel, lütt Vagel,
din Bost glummt so wit.
Sall de mi wohrschugen?
Mößt höger nu bugen,
ward bäter din Tit.

Rodböster, Rodböster
din Leed klüng' so heit.
Dat sall mi bedüden,
du brukst uns tautiden,
de Minsch dat nu weit ...

Der Komponist Eberhard Barbi (Schwerin-Pampow) schrieb 1998 einen sehr
schönen Chorsatz. Auch ich vertonte es.

Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert, eigene Sammlung, Schriftenreihe des
Karbe-Wagner-Archivs, Heft 8 "Unterhaltsame Volkskunde"

Dit wier u.a. mien Pingsten.

Von Harten mien Gräuten.

Hanne Hinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dank di, leve Hanne, ook för den Riemel.

Folks, Hanne ushers in June 2009 with a list of birds German : Low Saxon.

Below I added the *scientific (Latin) *and *English** *equivalents to the
German and Low Saxon names, *bold green* ones being my addition to the Low
Saxon collection. Literal translations are added by me also.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: I noticed today that lilac and hawthorn are actually beyond their
prime ... I'd hate to find out that the wisterias have gone that way already
also.

1971 *Falco peregrinus* *peregrin falcon :* Wanderfalke : *Falk*

1972 *Athene noctua* *little owl :** *Steinkauz : Dodenvagel ("death bird")

1973 *Alcedo atthis* *common kingfisher :* Eisvogel : Iesvagel, Ißvagel s.
2009 ("ice bird")

1974 *Delichon urbica* *house martin :** *Mehlschwalbe : Swoelk,
Finsterswoelk ("window swallow")

1975 *Pluvialis apricaria* *Eurasian golden plover* : Gold(regenpfeifer) :
Tütvagel, *T**üü**tvagel*, Vagel Tüt, Tüten ("tweeter bird")

1976 *Upupa epops* *hoopoe :** *Wiedehopf : Hupup, Huppup, Hupuhp

1977 *Tyto alba* *barn owl :** *Schleiereule : Tormuhl ("tower owl"),
Schnorkuhl ("snore owl")

1978 *Grus grus* *crane :** *Kranich : *Kraan, *Kraun, Kroon, Muskant
("musician")

1979 *Hirundo rustica* *barn swallow :* Rauchschwalbe : Swoelk,
Stallswoelk("stable swallow")

1980 *Lyrurus tetrix* or auch *Tetrao tetrix* *black grouse :**
*Birkhuhn : Barkhauhn,
Barckhoon ("birch hen")

1981 *Dryocopus martius* *black woodpecker :** *Schwarzspecht :
Rägenvagel ("rain
bird")

1982 *Numenius arquata* *Eurasian curlew :* Großer Brachvogel : Vagel
Tüt ("tweeter
bird"), Rägenvagel ("rain bird"), Rägenfläuter ("rain fluter"),
Wärervagel("weather bird"),
Watervagel ("water bird")

1983 *Riparia riparia* *sand martin :** *Uferschwalbe : Sandswoelk ("sand
swallow")

1984 *Ciconia ciconia **white stork : * Weißstorch : Adebar, Adebor, Had'bar,
Poggenbieter ("frog biter"), Musche Langbein ("monsieur Longlegs")

1985 *Lanius collurio* *Red-backed Shrike* : Neuntöter : Nägenmürder ("nine
murderer")

1986 *Corvus frugilegus* *rook :** *Saatkrähe : Ackerkreih ("field crow")

1987 *Saxicola rubetra* *whinchat* : Braunkehlchen : Brunböster, *Bruunböster
* ("brown-breaster")

1988 *Jynx torquilla* *Eurasian wryneck* : Wendehals : Dreihhhals ("turn
neck")

1989 *Acrocephalus scirpaceus* *Eurasian reed warbler* : Teichrohrsänger : de
lütte Ruhrsparling ("the little reed sparrow"), Korl-Kiek ("Charlie peep"),
Reitpieper, *Reetpieper* ("reed piper")

1990 *Oriolus oriolus* *golden oriole :* Pirol : Vagel Bülow,
Pingstvagel ("Whitsun
bird"), Schult von Bülow

1991 *Perdix perdix* *grey partridge* : Rebhuhn : Rapphauhn, *Rapphohn*

1992 *Erithacus rubecula* *European robin :** *Rotkehlchen : Rodböster, *
Roodböster* ("red-breaster")

1993 *Charadrius dubius* *little ringed plover* : Flussregenpfeifer :
Tütvagel ("tweet bird"), Rägentüt, *Rägentüüt * ("rain tweet")

1994 s. 1984

1995 *Luscinia megarhynchos* *nightingale* : Nachtigall : Nachtigall,
Nachtigal, Fläutjehann ("flutist John"), Trillerine, Achtervagel ("back
bird")

1996 *Vanellus vanellus* *northern lapwing* : Kiebitz : Kiwitt

1997 *Dendrocopos major* *great spotted woodpecker* : Buntspecht :
Knorrenspecht
("knot woodpecker"), Holthauger, *Holthacker* ("wood hacker"), Bomhacker*,
Boomhacker* ("tree hacker")*, Boombicker* ("tree pecker")*,
Boomlöper*("tree runner")

1998 *Alauda arvensis* *skylark* : Feldlerche : Lerche, Lewark, Lierk, *Leerk,
Lark, Lurk, Lewerk(e), Lewalk, Lauerk, L**öwink*

1999 *Emberiza citrinella* *yellowhammer : *Goldammer : Gälgoss, Gälgaus,
Gälgöschen, *Gäälgööschen, Gäälmööschen, Gäälbaartje* ("little yellow
beard") (*gä**äl* 'yellow')

2000 *Milvus milvus* *red kite:** *Rotmilan : Twälstiert ("bifurcated tail"),
Wieh, Huweh, Huwieh

2001 *Podiceps cristatus* *great grested grebe* : Haubentaucher :
Dükervagel("diver bird"),
Seehahn ("sea cock"), Seedüker ("sea diver"), Düker(t) ("diver")

2002 *Passer domesticus* *house sparrow :** *Haussperling/Spatz : Sparling,
Lünk, *Lünink, **Lü**ü**ntje, Sparl, Dackfink * ("roof finch")

2003 *Apus apus* *common swift : *Mauersegler : Tuurnswoelk,
Tormswoelk, *Toornswölk
* ("tower swallow")

2004 *troglodytes troglodytes* *winter wren : *Zaunkönig :
Nettelkönig("nettle king"),
Tunkrüper, *Tuunkrüper* ("hedge/fence creeper"), Schneekönig,
Sneikönig("snow king"),
Grot Jochen. *groot Jochen * ("big Jake")

2005 *Bubo bubo* *Eurasian eagle owl : *Uhu : Schuhu, Schuhuu, Schuhut,
Schufot, Dodenvagel ("death bird")

2006 *Sitta europaea* *Eurasian nuthatch :* Kleiber : Kleimer ("dauber")

2007 *Falco tinnunculus* *common kestrel* : Turmfalke : Tuurnfalk, *
Toornfalk* ("tower falcon"), Steinfalk ("stone falcon"), Rüttelfalk,
Roetelfalk ("shaking falcon"), Thurmhavk ("tower hawk")**

2008 *Cuculus canorus* *common cuckoo: *Kuckuck : Kukuk, *Kukuuk*

2009 *Alcedo atthis* *common kingfisher : *Eisvogel : Ißvagel, Iesvagel ("ice
bird")

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090601/7a23d5b8/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 18:29:19 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:29:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.03 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUN.2009.112919.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Lowlanders,

My apologies about the erroneously sent message.

Strange things are going on with the Listserver. Among other things I can't
make any changes to the subscription specifications at the moment.

Please bear with me until this has been sorted out.

Regards from an unusually hot Seattle, USA, (unusually certainly for this
time of the year),
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090603/b077cb35/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 18:19:13 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:19:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.01 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUN.2009.111913.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Junimaand

Hallo leiw' Lowlanders,

nu hett uns de Junimaand fat' krägen, so männigmal spält dat Wäder mit uns
Kuhlsoeg' (dat Wuurt kennt ji je all).
Dat Wuurt 'Junimaand' stammt von Fritz Reuter. Egentlich heit dat *Brakmaand,
Braakmaand.* Junius 'Brachmaen' CHYTR. 30; Arch. Landesk. 14,554. Mnd*.
brakmant, -män(e) *m*.*
Ob dat hüt noch bi de niedmodsche Technik ein Brakeltiet gäben deit, weit
ick nich so recht. Brakeltiet : is de Tiet, wo de Acker sick utslapen möt,
dat heit, de Acker liggt brak. Ja, un so is de Juni tau sien' Namen kamen.

Duert nich mihr lang', denn pisackt uns de *Schapküll, Schapsküll* , wenn't
hoch kümmt, bannig dull an'n 11. Dag in dissen Maand (ähnlich wie bei den
Eisheiligen). Wiel de mihrsten Schap all scheert sünd, möckt ehr de Küll tau
schaffen, denn draugt lütt Bah-Lämming Gefohr. Ja, un so näumt man disse Tiet
*Schapsküll.*
**
An'n 21. heit dat denn *Sommeranfang.*Wi täuben dat ierst mal af.

An'n 24. heit dat *Johanni (*Johannes der Täufer), un wenn dat Wäder so
kümmt: *väl Rägen vör Johanni* bietet Gewähr für eine gute Kartoffelernte.
Scherzend: *vör Johanni möt 'n dat Ünnertüg anbehollen un nah Johanni wedder
antrecken. *Regen zu *Johanni *
kündigt vierwochenlangen Regen sowie eine nasse Ernte, aber auch eine gute
Buchenmast an.
**
*Soebensleperdag 27. *(Siebenschläfertag), un woans heit dat: *wenn't
Soebensleperdag rägent, rägent 't soeben Wochen.* Aber
Aufhebung dieses schlechten Omens ist:
*Soebenbräuderdag *m. der Kalendertag Septem fratrum, der 10. Juli;
Wetterregel: *wenn 't Soebenbräuder rägent, rägent 't soe**ben Wochen, **doch
*hebt gutes Wetter am 13. oder 15. Juli diese schlimme Vorbedeutung wieder
auf. - denn will ich hier man aufhören.

(Ick bedank mi bi de Perfessers Wossidlo/Teuchert Mecklenburgisches
Wörterbuch.)

Meteorologen sollte man immer fragen ".... wie war denn gestern
das Wetter....".

Kamt gaut dörch denn' Brakmaand,
dat wünsch ick all'tohopen.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090603/363f283f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 19:13:09 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:13:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.03 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUN.2009.121309.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Lowlanders,

Just now I was told by our good hosts (LINGUIST) that they had upgraded the
software and that the transition was accompanied by a few hiccups.

Soon after that I tested the system again and was successful. So in theory
at least all is in working order again. Should any other "weirdness" ensue,
please assume that you are dealing with another hiccup.

As always, regards and best wishes,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090603/660a80c7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 19:19:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:19:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.03 (04) [AF]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUN.2009.121927.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: delangeam <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: laaste skrywe

Beste Ron,

Jou laaste skrywe onder “lexicon” aangaande vo”elname was wonderlik. Ek het
honderde duisendekilometers in veraf landelike gebiede gereis op soek na
geofiete (plante wat water ondergronds stoor.)

Heelwat van jou Saksiese name het ek daar (in Afrikaanse vorm) gehoor en
nerens anders nie.

Mooi loop

At *[de Lange]*

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090603/b3974fa1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 14:10:29 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:10:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.03 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.071029.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.05.26 (05) [EN]

Roger Thijs raised the topic of " *Verkavelingsvlaams,
Verkavelingsnederlands". In my opinion the main feature of this kind
of (reprehensible)
substandard Belgian Dutch, being neither standard Dutch nor dialect,
consists of using the inversed verbal forms for the second person, which
usually sound something like 'gade mee, doede gij' (ga je , doe jij). I
pride myself that my native tongue, Tiens (and also nearby Hoegaardens) is
the only dialect in all of Brabantish that has been spared this kind of what
I like to call "kreupel Nederlands". We say "gaat ge, doet gij" , *[Äx«] [d«
U xEù]* **I'm qu**ite sure a lot of people might want to disagree. I'm
looking forward to your opinion and remarks.
PS I hope the phonetic text will prove to be legible.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
* Â
As well the Dutch *verkaveling* as the French *lotissement*Â can mean both:
1 - Dividing a land in smaller parcels intended for the construction of
houses (in an organized way and supported by the investments in roads and
utilities)
2 - The section of a town that was created by such a procedure.
Â
In Belgium we use "Verkavelingsvlaams" for designing Belgian Dutch colored
by some regiolect. The term "Verkavelingsvlaams" was lauched I think by a
journalist Geert van Istendaal. Since in such development area people from
different villages buy land and construct houses, the native village dialect
of the area is not known nor learned by the new immigrants and the
regiolect-color helps to keep a cosy armosphere;
Local soap TV series often use some form of Verkavelingsvlaams.
Â
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotissement
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkaveling is incomplete and gives only the
first meaning
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkavelingsvlaams
Â
Regards,
Roger

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/a1d8d97b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 14:12:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:12:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.04 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.071259.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Baum des Jahres

*Out of gratitude for help *(Vogel des Jahres)

Dear Ron and hello, Lowlanders!

Jahr/ Latein/ Hochdeutsch/ Niederdeutsch/ Englisch
1989 Quercus robur/ Stieleiche/  Eik, Eikbom, Eek, Ek, Ehk, Stehnehk,
Drufehk, Frucht: Eichel/ oak ? acorn
          Quercus foemina (pedun culata)/ Sommereiche/ Ehk, Mastehk/ oak?
1990 Fagus sylvatia/ Buche/ Bäuk, (Hainbuche, Hagbäuk, Rotbuche, Mastbäuk)
Frucht: Buchecker/Bäukecker/ beech
1991 Tilia platyphyllos/ Sommerlinde/ Lindenbom, Linn'nbom/ lime
1992 Ulmus glabra/ Bergulme/ Feldrüster, Rüster,Reuster, Rüsterbom,
Rüüsterbom/ elm ?
1993 Sorbus domestica/ Speierling/ in Literatur nicht auffindbar/
1994 Taxus baccata/ Eibe/ Ibenbom, Taxbom, Früchte: Honnigbeeren/ yew
1995 Acer platanoides/ Spitzahorn/ Ahurn, Ahörn, Ahürn, Näsenklemmerbom,
Klonebom (slaw. Lehnwort), Frucht: Näsenklemmer/
          maple ?
1996 Carpinus betulus/ Hain- oder Hagebuche/ Hawbäuk (Haw von Hain),
(Weißbuche/Wittbäuk/ beech ?
1997 Sorbus aucuparia/ Vogelbeere oder Eberesche/ Quitschbeerenbom,
Vagelbeerbom, Quitsch, Quitz/  bird-berry ?
1998 Pyrus communis/ Wildbirne/ Wilde Beerbom (62 Arten)/ wild-pear ?
1999 Salix alba/ Silberweide/ Kroppwied, andere Arten wie Gel Wied,
Korfwied, Palmwied/ silver-willow
2000 Betula pendula/ Sand- oder Hängebirke/ Bark, Barkenbom, Maibom, junge
Birke: Maien, Maibusch, Hangelbark/
          sand- or hangbirch ?
2001 Fraxinus excelsior/ Esche/ Taageschen (zähes Holz), Wittbäuk/ ash
2002 Juniperus communis/ Wacholder/ Knirk, Macholler/ juniper
2003 Alnus glutinosa/ Schwarzerle/ Eller/ black-alder
2004 Abies alba/ Weißtanne (ausgestorben)/ Wittdann/ white fir or wheat fir
?
2005 Aesculus hippocastanum/ Rosskastanie/ Kastann'bom, Kastanie, Kastann'/
chestnut ?
2006 Populus nigra/ Schwarzpappel/ Pöppelwied auch Ful Esch/ black-poplar ?
2007 Pinus sylvestris/ Waldföhre oder Waldkiefer/ Dann, Führenholt/ fir ?
2008 Juglans regia/ Walnuss/ Wallnöhtbom, Wallnoetbom, Wallnoetsbom/ walnut
2009 Acer pseudoplatanus/ Berg-Ahorn/ Ahöhrn, Ahührn, s. auch 1995/ maple ?

Baum des Jahrtausends: Ginkgo biloba (Umweltschutz, Frieden)

*Natur                                           *1992 Ulme (Rüster,
Rüüstrbom)

Ick güng so giern
dörch Holt un Busch
un oewer Heid' mit di,
un luuster, wenn de Scheper süng',
wenn sacht de Wind dörch Eikböm klüng';
ein Aten wir't för mi.

Un dat süng' so de Busch,
bald singt hei nich mihr,
de Rüüsterbom klagt sin Leid;
de Wind weiht so rug',
de Lucht is so swor;
nu ahn ick, wat dit all heit.

Ach, de Ierd' bräkt so up;
weinst du all Natur?
Ein Storm all intwei ret ein Land.
Ein Rägen weikt up
de Ierd', uns' Saat, -
ein Kind hewt krank noch sin Hand.

Un so still swiggt dat Holt,
de Minschheit larmt lud,
wat blött'st du nu all Morgenrot?
De rike Mann sett't
de Äxt wedder an;
uns' Ierd', sei schrigt grell ehr Not.

Ick will so girn
dörch Holt un Busch
mit di ok morgen gahn,
un luustern, wenn de Scheper singt,
dat sacht de Wind dörch Eikböm klingt,
will Läben so verstahn!

(H. Hinz)

So, dat wir't!

Best' Gräuten
Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/6653fdea/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 14:27:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:27:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.072720.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: Grammatik

Dat gifft in uns Dialekt en besünner Wies "'t fangt an to ..." uttodrücken.
"'t fangt an to regen" warrt denn to'n Bispeel "'t warrt regen" utdrückt.
Dat "regen" in dissen Utdruck is keen Substantiv, dat is en Verbform. Dat
geiht blot mit en poor Verben, de en Tostand utdrückt. Aver blot för
Tostänn, de natürlich sünd, de de Minsch nich stüürn kann. Vör allen dat
Weder ("de Heven warrt so düüster utsehn", "snein warrn", "schummern warrn")
oder to'n Bispeel ok sowat as "du warrst ja in't Gesicht so slecht utsehn".
Is wohrschienlich en afslepen Gerundivform (is Gerundiv de richtige Utdruck
för -nd-Wöör so as hoochdüütsch "aussehend"?) - afslepen jüst as in "fleten
Water" - un keen Infinitiv.

Op't Internett heff ik blot en Hand vull Bispelen funnen:

"Een Maschien dreiht dat Heu ton groten witten Plastik-Rollmops tosamen – un
denn kann’t regen warrn." <
http://www.grossenaspe.de/html/body_ve_frueher.html>
 "Dat warrt regen..." <
http://lehrplan.lernnetz.de/intranet1/links/materials/1150375624.pdf>
 "Üm de Ulenflucht, wenn dat schummern warrt" <
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8xAIBLQ_50>
 "Wat kann de Minsch leeg - utsehn warrn" <
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Hamborger_Janmooten/Krischon_Honolulu>
 "Ja, un't lett so fast, as wenn't meindag' nich wedder regen warden will" <
http://wikisource.org/wiki/D%C3%B6rchl%C3%A4uchting/Kapittel_10>

Disse Bispelen sünd all ut Holsteen, Hamborg un Mekelborg. Kann aver angahn,
dat dat ok annerwegens noch kennt warrt, annere Regionen hebbt ja annere
Formen för "warrn" ("weern", "worden" etc.).

Weet dor een von jo mehr to? Gifft dat disse Utdruckswies bi jo ok? Weet
een, wo dat von her kaamt, wannehr dat opkamen is, woneem dat bruukt warrt
etc.?

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Beste Marcus,

Na mien Dinken sünd das Substantiven, un de schull 'n groot schrieven:

Orginaal: Dat schall/sall rägen.
ünner düütsch Inwarken: Dat wardt rägen.

Man …
Üm de Ulenflucht, wenn dat Schummern wardt
Wenn dat Heu hoog un dröög' liggt, denn kann 't Rägen warden.
Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder Rägen warden will.
so as: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder warm warden
will.
or: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder Summer warden
will.

Man: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder rägen will.

Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/863487b5/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 14:42:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:42:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2009.06.04 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.074228.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.03 (04) [EN]

I noticed that two verbal forms in phonetic spelling turned out to be
unreadable. I use the Silipa fonts and I hoped UTF-8 would recognize them.
Can anyone give me a tip as to how I can insert symbols of the International
Ponetic System into a Lowlands message?

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Hi, Roger!

It's been good hearing from you again.

Are you talking about SIL IPA93? That's a Unicode font. I'm not sure about
the 1990 version.

The way I do it is use a Unicode font and make sure Unicode encoding is
specified in the program.

A nice and quick way of copying and pasting IPA is to use the IPA Picker:
http://rishida.net/scripts/pickers/ipa/

(Other Pickers: http://rishida.net/scripts/pickers/)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/057e99d2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 17:24:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:24:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (05) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.102400.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (03) [NDS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Grammar
>
> Beste Marcus,
>
> Na mien Dinken sünd das Substantiven, un de schull 'n groot schrieven:
>
> Orginaal: Dat schall/sall rägen.
> ünner düütsch Inwarken: Dat wardt rägen.
>
> Man …
> Üm de Ulenflucht, wenn dat Schummern wardt
> Wenn dat Heu hoog un dröög' liggt, denn kann 't Rägen warden.
> Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder Rägen warden
> will.
> so as: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder warm
> warden will.
> or: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder Summer warden
> will.
>
> Man: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder rägen will.
>
> Grötens,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Dat "Dat wardt rägen", wo du baven von schriffst, dat is Futur, wat eerst
noch passeren schall. Wo ik von snack, dat warrt seggt, wenn dat jüst
anfangt oder jüst in'e Gang kamen is.
Bi "regen" süht dat würklich so ut, as wenn dat en Substantiv wesen kunn. Is
dat aver nich, dat liggt blot dor an, dat dor keen Ünnerscheed twischen
"regen" un "Regen" is. Jüstso bi "Schummern". Aver bi "de Heven warrt so
düüster utsehn" kann dat keen Substantiv wesen. Wat schull "de Heven warrt
so düüster Utsehn" utseggen?  Oder "dat warrt Dunnern un Blitzen"? Un
schreven warrt dat in de Literatur ok jümmer lütt (mit Google Böker is noch
en beten mehr to finnen).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Dank di, Marcus.

Du schreevst:

Bi "regen" süht dat würklich so ut, as wenn dat en Substantiv wesen kunn. Is
dat aver nich,

Ja, good. Man woans kannst du so säker sien? Wat is de Bewies? Lütt- or
Grootschrieven or annere Saken vun wägen Schrievwies' sünd keen Bewiesen.

Sinn: "fangt jüstemang an" (immediate future indicating begin):

Dat wardt Ucht ~ Uchtenstied. (Dawn is beginning. It's dawning.)
Dat wardt Avend. (Evening is falling.)
Dat wardt Summer ~ Summertied ~ Summerwedder. (Summer (weather) is
beginning.)
Dat wardt Schummern ~ Schummer(n)tied. (Dusk is falling.)
Dat wardt Düüsternis ~ Nacht. (It's getting dark. Night is falling.)
Dat wardt Rägen ~ Rägenwedder. (It's beginning to rain. Rain (weather) is
starting.)
Dat wardt Dauen ~ Dauwedder. (It's beginning to thaw. Thawing weather is
beginning.)
Dat wardt uplopen Water. (The water is rising. It's the beginning of flood
tide.)
Dat wardt Leegwater. (It's the beginning of ebb tide.)
Dat wardt Blöhn ~ Blöhtied. (It's beginning to bloom. Flowering season is
beginning.)

Sinn: Tokamen/Futur (future, indicating impending action):
(schall = orginaal, wardt < düütsch wird)

Dat schall (~ wardt) rägen. (It will rain.)
Dat schall (~ wardt) dauen. (It will thaw.)
Dat schall Avend warden. (Night will fall. Night will be falling.)
Dat schall (~ wardt) uchten. (It will dawn. Dawn will come.)
Dat schall (~ wardt) blöhn. (The blooming season will begin.)
Dat Water schall (~ wardt) uplopen. (The water will rise.)
Dat Water schall (~ wardt) aflopen. (The water will run off.)
Dat schall (~ wardt) düüster warden. (It will get dark.)

Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/5b247d2d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 19:17:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:17:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (06) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.121738.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de|>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (03) [NDS]

Hallo Marcus

As Mäkelborgsche vermell ick nu dit:

Dat sall noch Rägen gäben. Un wenn de Rägen föllt, denn rägent (regnet) dat,
un wenn de Rägen foll'n is, denn hett dat rägent.
Wenn de Rägen rägent hal ick mi 'n Rägenschirm. Bäter is, dat rägent hüt
nich, denn' wüür dat rägen (regnen), denn rägent dat je.
rägen : regnen
rägent : regnet
Dat ward rägen (regnen, Verb), Das/es wird regnen.  Dat rägent (regnet,
Verb) ümmer
äbendrächtig. Es regnet immerzu. In übertr. Bedeutung: denn rägent' (regnet;
Verb) man so in'n Hals. Er kommt schnell zu etwas.

Infinite Formen                  Unbetimmte Formen:
*Infinitiv                               *Grundform
lachen,     lachen    regnen,    rägen
*Partizip Präsens              *Mittelwort der                   lachend,
lachen   regnend,  rägen
                                              Gegenwart
*Partizip Perfekt                *Mittelwort
der                   gelacht,    lacht      geregnet, rägent

rägent (geregnet) - könnte das "t" dat oder et (es) ausdrücken, oder wat
meint ihr, die im ND wegfallende Vorsilbe 'ge' ersetzen? Hm, weit nich so
recht.

Ick möt mi ümmer noch denn' Kopp termautbasten (abquälen, zerbrechen).

Gräuten.

Hanne Hinz

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/473d8095/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 19:31:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:31:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.04 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.123121.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.03 (04) [EN]

> From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.05.26 (05) [EN]
> Roger Thijs raised the topic of " *Verkavelingsvlaams,
Verkavelingsnederlands". In my opinion the main feature of this kind
of (reprehensible)
substandard Belgian Dutch, being neither standard Dutch nor dialect,
consists of using the inversed verbal forms for the second person, which
usually sound something like 'gade mee, doede gij' (ga je , doe jij). I
pride myself that my native tongue, Tiens (and also nearby Hoegaardens) is
the only dialect in all of Brabantish that has been spared this kind of what
I like to call "kreupel Nederlands". We say "gaat ge, doet gij" , *[Äx«] [d«
U xEù]* **I'm qu**ite sure a lot of people might want to disagree. I'm
looking forward to your opinion and remarks.
PS I hope the phonetic text will prove to be legible.
*

I must say the pressure to a kind of Verkavelingsvlaams is quite strong in
some area's. I'm native (West)-Limburgish, lived in my home town for 33
years (with brief interruptions in Essen-Heisingen, Germany and in
Asper-Gavere, East-Flanders, as well as in the week for many years as
student in Leuven), and 27 years in Mortsel, a suburb of Antwerp.
Since Antwerpish people consider their dialect a metropolitan world
language, the pressure is very strong for contamination of local Dutch with
Brabantish elements: *Hedde gij...  Zallekik....* etc.
When back in Limburg from time to time, my Limburgish is unchanged, but when
I speak less formal Dutch, it still has residual Antwerpish elements and
Limburgish people do not like that (so they correct me).
I remember before, when I still lived in Limburg, my parents had had a
similar reaction against an aunt of mine who moved to Antwerp in the late
fourties.

Regards,
Roger

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/4aaaf99b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:00:01 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:00:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.05 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.070001.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (05) [NDS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dank di, Marcus.
>
> Du schreevst:
>
> Bi "regen" süht dat würklich so ut, as wenn dat en Substantiv wesen kunn.
> Is dat aver nich,
>
> Ja, good. Man woans kannst du so säker sien? Wat is de Bewies? Lütt- or
> Grootschrieven or annere Saken vun wägen Schrievwies' sünd keen Bewiesen.
>
Weten do ik dat nich. Aver mi dücht, dat is nich nödig, antonehmen, dat dat
en Substantiv is. Dat kann en Oord olen afslepen Gerundiv wesen oder dat
kann en Infinitiv wesen (wenn mien "Theorie" von en olen Gerundiv wohr is
[mag woll angahn, se is dat nich], denn müss sik wat finnen laten in ole
Texten oder in Dialekten, de noch en Ünnerscheed twischen Gerundiv un
Infinitiv maakt). So'n Infinitiv lett sik as Verb oder as Substantiv opfaten
(In "Nu geiht dat Blitzen un Dunnern los" hebbt wi ja to'n Bispeel ok en
Infinitiv, de allgemeen as Substantiv opfaat warrt), dat is keen binäre
Fraag. Wenn du "Dat wardt Dauen" schriffst, will ik dor man ok gornix gegen
seggen (wo dull Lüüd sik över de Frag Groot-/Lüütschrieven - hett dat Woord
mehr Substantiv- oder mehr Verb-Charakter - strieden köönt, hebbt wi ja bi
de Rechtschrievreform sehn).

Aver dat is op jeden Fall keen verhoochdüütscht Futur. "Dat warrt regen" is
ok op Hoochdüütsch grammatikaalsch ("Es wird regnen"), aver "nu kann't regen
warrn" is dat nich ("jetzt kann es regnen werden"). Import kann dat also
nich wesen. Utnahmen villicht, wi nehmt an, dat "dat warrt regen" un " nu
kann't regen warrn" sünd twee ganz verscheden Konstrukte (dien List mit
"fangt jüstemang an" un "Tokamen" interpreteer ik so). Aver dat passt ok
nich. Denn all beid Konstrukte warrt för "fangt jüstemang an" bruukt un dat
Futur warrt anners konstrueert.

Ik gah dor also von ut, dat dat en oold Gerundiv is, oder dat dat alternativ
warrn + Infinitiv is, wat aver blot de Form na mit't hoochdüütsche Futur
övereen is, un en egenstännig plattdüütsch Konstrukt is.

Marcus Buck

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/664d7677/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:01:23 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:01:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.070123.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marsha Wilson <marshatrue at gmail.com>
Subject:

I'm curious about the origin and meaning of the word "peawadden," as in
"that scared the peawadden out of me."
Any ideas?
Marsha Wilson
Mt. Angel, Oregon

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/e83b0556/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:02:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:02:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (03) [NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.070257.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.03 (04) [EN]

Beste allen,

In West-Vlaanderen is dit Verkavelingsvlaams minder populair, om niet te
zeggen ongewenst.
In het dialect klinkt het trouwens als:

"zie je doa?" (ben je daar?)
of met beklemtoning: "zie je gie doar?"
"je ziet doa!"
"je zie gie doa!"

"doe je da?"
"doe je gie da?"
"je doet da!"
"je doe gie da!"

In het West-Vlaams worden "je" en "jouw" en "jullie", in tegenstelling tot
de andere Vlaamse dialecten gebruikt, nl. als "je", "joen" en "junder".
Je zie gie lik joen broere én olletwai lik junder voader!
Jij bent net als je broer en beiden zoals jullie vader.

Het T.V.-Vlaams, als "wat doede?", "wa zegde"? is in het West-Vlaams dus
niet te horen.

Roland Desnerck
Oostende
West-Vlaanderen
België

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/e6dc34aa/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:29:13 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:29:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.072913.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L: vocabulary

 The Dutch "*tof*" is now also officially French and will be listed in the
Larousse 2010.
Regards,
Roger

*Annex 1:*

*Tof, Obama* est dans le Petit Larousse 2010 !
BELGA
vendredi 05 juin 2009, 14:58
Le Petit Larousse, version 2010, s’enrichit d’une centaine de nouveaux mots,
locutions, sens et expressions. Des personnalités y font également leur
entrée, dont le président Barack Obama. Et le super belgicisme « *tof *».
Sortie le 15 juin.
*Tof, Obama* est dans le Petit Larousse 2010 !
© AP.
Un bon nombre des nouveaux mots du Petit Larousse édition 2010 se rapportent
aux technologies et aux nouveaux usages culturels. Font ainsi leur entrée :
*e-learning* (apprentissage sur base du multimédia), *buzz *(retentissement
médiatique), *geek* (accro d’Internet), *mobinaute* (utilisateur d’Internet
à partir d’un appareil mobile), *peer to peer* (échange direct de données
entre ordinateurs reliés à Internet), *webradio, webtélé, e-book* (livre
numérisé), *poster *(publier sur Internet), *adresse IP* (numéro
d’identification d’un appareil connecté à Internet), *réseau social, Web
2.0, vidéo à la demande, hameçonnage* (technique de fraude par courriel)…
Quatre mots typiquement belges sont désormais répertoriés dans le
dictionnaire : *horeca*, *lacquemant* (une gaufrette ovale fourrée de sirop
de sucre brun aromatisé à la fleur d’oranger, spécialité liégeoise), *
nominette* et *tof *(super, extra).
Le Larousse intègre aussi de nouvelles expressions : *empreinte écologique,
effet yo-yo* (alternance de prise et de perte de poids), *fumer la moquette,
point barre !, au taquet, trouble du comportement alimentaire, faire une
saucette* (expression québécoise signifiant faire trempette)…
Si des personnalités font une entrée relativement rapide dans le
Larousse (*Barack
Obama, Audrey Tautou, Sébastien Loeb*), d’autres auront dû patienter plus
longtemps. C’est le cas de *Fanny Ardant, Jane Birkin, Francis Cabrel,
Hillary Clinton, George Clooney, Jean-Pierre Marielle, Jean Rochefort*.
Trois nouveaux venus sont belges : *Herman Van Rompuy*, le
mathématicien *Jacques
Tits* (français d’origine belge) et le danseur et chorégraphe *Wim
Vandekeybus.*
quoted from:
http://www.lesoir.be/culture/livres/tof-obama-est-dans-le-petit-2009-06-05-710519.shtml

*Annex 2*: As it is listed on the WNT CDROM

*TOF (I),* bnw. en bijw. Ontleening van hebr. tôb „goed”. Verg.: dof(t),
duf(t) (MARTIN u. LIENHARDT, Elsäss. Ma.); toff, tofft enz. (SCHMELLER,
Bayer. Wtb.); tof (FISCHER, Schwäb. Wtb.). Bargoensch woord, in het geheele
ndl. taalgebied als zoodanig in gebruik (zie MOORMANN, Bronnenb., Reg.); als
„slang” -woord algemeen bekend in de straattaal van de holl. groote steden
en de omgeving daarvan. MOORMANN geeft voor Groenstraat den bijvorm toft (p.
256), SCHUERM. voor L. v. Aalst toef; bovendien vermeldt MOORMANN, Bronnenb.
450 nog: toffiel (jargon van een paardenhandelaar); zie ook beneden onder
Afl.
Positief waardeerend woord, dat b. v. de volgende bet. kan hebben.
1) Van zaken. Betrouwbaar, degelijk, goed van kwaliteit. Barg. || Toef
(kramerslatijn), goed, wel, of het tegenovergestelde van: loensch: dat zijn
toeffe zaken, SCHUERM. [L. v. Aalst, 1870]. Toffe truk, goede waar,
MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 239 [St.-Truiden, 1892]. Tof, goed, 440 [jargon paarden-
en veekoopers, 1917]. Toftèhens, goed geld, 256 [Groenstraat, 1924]. FONCKE,
Mech. Dial. 64 [1932].
— Als bijw. || Hij kwam er tof af, VERWOERT, bij MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 208 [±
1860]. Hij is tof in de kloften, hij is goed gekleed, Ald. Mechels maast tof
gepierd, ik heb wel gespeeld, 228 [Roeselare, 1890]. Tof, goed. Hij peest
tof, hij werkt goed, 375 a [Haaksbergen, 1922]. — Het plan van m'n
grootvader zaniker heb ik dan ook maar volvoerd en 't is me tof gelukt,
KOKADORUS, Amstelv. 52 [1909]. Zij verdienden zeer veel geld en zaten tof in
de klofte, V. AALST, Mart. en B. 112 [1944].
2) Van zaken, inz. van bepaalde omstandigheden, van een bepaald feit.
Aangenaam, lekker, prettig, gezellig, leuk en derg. Ook als uitroep, die
soms instemming te kennen geeft; vandaar de omschrijving „ja” die door
MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 287 voor de streek van Aalst opgegeven wordt. || Toffe
schoentjes (Zaandamsch, ook te Amst., en ook wel elders), Aant. v.
BOEKENOOGEN [± 1890]. Vin je dat niet tof, aardig, gezellig, Aant. v. A.
BEETS [Heiloo, 1892]. Hoe tof, Ald. Tof. Dat is tof, of alleen: tof! = goed,
leuk, prettig, MEIJER, Woorden 112 [1919]. — Hij speult een rolletje, dat
tof is. Hij speult voor den Ongeduldigen, BODDAERT, Poët. en Proz. Port. 163
[ed. post. 1836]. „Gerookte paling, dikke.” „Dat's tof,” schreeuwt de
snijer, die dol op paling is, V. MAURIK, Amst. bij D. en N. 79 [1897].
Kerwelsoep is ... 'n tof ete bij mijn gezond, HEIJERMANS, Sabbath 63 [1903].
Stormweer, jò — maar toch tòf, om je kop eens fijn uit te laten ragen aan
den dijk, BRUSSE, O. M. 2, 290 [1918]. „Gaan we bij m'n vrouw koffie drinken
en een lollige middag d'rvan maken. Goed?” „Tof!” riep Jan, DE JONG, F. v.
W. 346 [1928]. „'t Is-t-er zeker een toffe boel, niet?” vroeg hij. „Met al
die linke gozers daar bij mekaar?” 353 [1928]. De hele voorraad leit in 't
kippehok. Die kerel kan z'n eige mottig zoeke. Drie minute te laat was ie en
wij zate een kruisjassie te make, net of we al een uur bezig ware. Is ie
effe tof? BAKKER, Branding 217 [1941]. We mogen wel eens kankeren op die
goeie ouwe stad (t. w. Amsterdam), op zijn nauwe straten en vele hoge
bruggen, maar in ons hart vinden we het een toffe stad, DAAN, Hij zeit wat
50 [1948].
— Als bijw. || Daar zit hij tof, BOUMAN [1871]. Dat is tof gemaakt
(Zaandamsch, ook te Amst. en ook wel elders), Aant. v. BOEKENOOGEN [± 1890].
3) Van personen. Betrouwbaar, eerlijk, loyaal. Barg. || Tof, goed, degelijk;
ook kalm en eerlijk, Boevent. 68 [1906]. Tof gaje, goed volk, MOORMANN,
Bronnenb. 291 a [Tilburg-Schijndel, 1922]. Blijkbaar met mijn antwoord
tevreden stak hij de Nieuwendijk weer over om zijn kornuiten te vertellen,
dat die nieuwe wel „tof” was. Na een tijdje kwamen er tenminste een paar
naar me toe met de vaderlijke raad om op te passen voor „stille russen”, Het
Vrije Volk 19 April 1947, 5.
4) Nauw hierbij aansluitend: prettig, vlot in den omgang, sympathiek,
„geschikt”. Blijkens een aant. van A. BEETS [1891] in Den Haag ook: lief,
gezegd van een kind enz. || Rebecca zou 'n tof meissie voor 'm zijn,
HEIJERMANS, Ghetto3 24 [1898]. 'n Tof pietschoppertje, een kedin klein
schorempie, BRUSSE, Boefje 160 [1903]. QUERIDO, Jordaan 1, 342 [1912]. Ik
was altijd fesoendeluk: ... nooit 'n ander gehad as die ouë zeurige saaierd,
die toffe slaapmus, thuis, SMEDING, Stil St. 1, 102 [1920]. Pienter is hij
en — wat de Amsterdammers noemen — „tof”. Op z'n 25 jarig jubileum ... heeft
'n feestredenaar gezegd: „Er zijn drie groote Louis: Louis Bouwmeester,
Louis de Vries en Louis Davids, maar Davids is de „tofste”, E. VISSER,
Nederl. Cabaret 96 [1920]. In welke kazerne je lag. O, dan kon je net een
boodschap voor 'em doen .... Natuurlik wou je voor zo'n toffe kapitein graag
wat doen, DE JONG, F. v. W. 356 [1928]. Een lollige vrijer (of een lekkere
knul) is een leuke kerel, een toffe vent, DAAN, Hij zeit wat 48 [1948].
— Zeer gewoon in de uitdrukking toffe jongen, graag pretmakende, „lollige”
jongen of man, fideele kerel, vlot in den omgang. In het barg. valt de
nadruk wellicht meer op het eerlijk-, betrouwbaar-zijn. || Toffe jongens,
goede, echte, prettige lui. Ook wel ironisch, MEIJER, Woorden 112 [1919]. —
Zie dien sergeant! Wat wil hij toch ...? Wacht, daar staat hij ... en
spreekt .... met een zeer lief meisje .... Nu, hij is dan ook een toffe
jongen, Alm. v. Holl. Blijgeest. 1841, 71. B. is 'n toffe jongen,
HEIJERMANS, Diamantstad 121 [1904]. Hij had gedacht bij deze twee toffe
jongens een reuzensucces te hebben met zijn verhaal, DE JONG, F. v. W. 352
[1928]. PHILIPS, Bruiloft in Europa8 28 [1934]. En dat we toffe jongens
zijn, dat willen we weten, Begin v. e. alg. bekenden volksdeun.
— Voor andere dan de in de hoofddefinitie genoemde taalkringen geldt toffe
jongen ter aanduiding van een brani-achtigen jongeman uit een bepaalde
maatschappelijke groep. || Een oploopje op straat ..., veel publiek uit
Zutphens achterbuurten, de toffe jongens van de Leugenbrug, MEINSMA, De
Zwarte Dood 127 [1924]. Een onsympathieke toffe jongen, een flinkdoenerige
kwast met zijn praatjes en zijn eeuwige whiskeyflesch, L. HUIZINGA, Tien gl.
wijn 14 [1942].
5) Bepaaldelijk van een meisje: mooi, knap. Barg. || Tof, goed, schoon, wel,
braaf; een tôve geeze, een schoon meisje, MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 273 b
[Rotwelsch v. Brussel, 1897]. Een toffe meid, een knappe meid, DE VRIES
[1909]. — Anders 'n toffe mokkel .... Maar waas gibt dòs? .... Geen cent op
de wereld, HEIJERMANS, Sabbath 87 [1903].
Afl. — Tofferen, van de vergrootende trap toffer (eveneens door MOORMANN,
Bronnenb. 149 vermeld voor Zele). Beteren. || 't Za wel tofferen, 't Zal wel
beteren, MOORMANN, t. a. p. [Zele, 1840].
— Toffig, goed. Opgegeven voor zndl. handelscentra als Kortrijk, Roeselare,
Aalst, Gent, Brussel, Antw. Zie MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 287.
Samenst. Misschien is tofferad, dat door VERWOERT [± 1860] wordt opgegeven
als benaming voor „drie gulden” (bij MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 212), als zoodanig
te beschouwen; t. a. p. wordt nl. rad opgegeven als benaming voor „daalder”

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/4da4476e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 16:34:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:34:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (05) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.093454.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: marco [evenhuis van broekhoven] <marco at evenhoven.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (03) [NL]

Mensen,
Roland schreef:

In het West-Vlaams worden "je" en "jouw" en "jullie", in tegenstelling tot
de andere Vlaamse dialecten gebruikt, nl. als "je", "joen" en "junder".
Je zie gie lik joen broere én olletwai lik junder voader!
Jij bent net als je broer en beiden zoals jullie vader.

  *
*
Roland, ik vraag me af of in het West-Vlaams niet net als in het Zeeuws de
voorkeur voor de omschrijving 'van joe' ten opzichte van het bezittelijk
voornaamwoord  'joen' hand over hand toeneemt. Het Zeeuws staat minder sterk
ten opzichte van het standaardnederlands dan het West-Vlaams, dus het is
best mogelijk dat 'joen' bij jullie nog altijd de voorkeur heeft.

Voorbeelden:

is dat joen fiets? - is die fiets van joe?
dat 'uus dae lienks is toch 't joene? - dat 'uus dae lienks is toch van joe?

Jouw voorbeeld:
WVL: je zie gie lik joen broere en olletwai lik junder voader
Z: jie bin liek a die broer van joe / je broer en aollebeie liek as julder
vaoder

Groet!

Marco Evenhuis

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/1e60cf73/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 21:28:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:28:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (06) [NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.142840.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Roger,

You wrote:
**

*Roger Thijs** **raised the **topic of** "** **Verkavelingsvlaams,
Verkavelingsnederlands". In my opinion the main feature of this kind
of (reprehensible)
substandard Belgian Dutch, being neither standard Dutch nor dialect,
consists of using the inversed verbal forms for the second person, which
usually sound something like 'gade mee, doede gij' (ga je , doe jij). I
pride myself that my native tongue, Tiens (and also nearby Hoegaardens) is
the only dialect in all of Brabantish that has been spared this kind of what
I like to call "kreupel Nederlands". We say "gaat ge, doet gij" , **[Äx«]
[d¬´U xE√π]** **I'm qu**ite sure a lot of people might want to disagree. I'm
looking forward to your opinion and remarks.
*


Is it "een man" in Tiens or "ne man/ene man"? Does anybody north of the
Moerdijk still pronounce "station" the way we Southerners do...or is it
"stesjon"?

I mean, how many people are willing and able to speak standard 24/7? As a
teacher of math (in Zaventem), I'm trying to speak standard Dutch as often
as possible. However, I don't want to sound like Martine Tanghe when I'm out
there in the wild, camping with my students. Off the record, Martine Tanghe
does a perfectly fine job when she's reading the news, but there are
situations where her style just won't cut it...bonding, you know.

Students are very sensitive to the right vocabulary and I'm permanently
aware of that. As soon as I start using typical Northern Dutch expressions,
they react more or less as if I'm talking Swahili. Mix some English/French
in your speech and few will bother. Northern Dutch, they freeze. Some of my
students are "Hollanders" though, and when addressing them in private I will
swiftly switch registers again.

In a non-professional situation, most of the time I say:

"dürre gaa" (instead of doe jij)
"gojrre gaa" (ga jij)
"mütte gaa" (moet jij)
"zèrre dàà" (ben je daar?)
"ge zè gaa grat a bruu(r)...alle twïe zjust aale pajt/våår" (je bent
helemaal je broer...allebei sprekend jullie vader)

If one wants to express the similarity between two people, he could also
say:

"'t És zö pajt op nen doët" (op eenen duit < op ende uit)

Nowadays, "pajt" for "father" is used less and is generally perceived quite
vulgar (not among male teenagers though...rude boy slang effect). Another
(uncouth) way to describe similarity goes like this:

"'t És zö pajt gescheetn"

No explanation needed I guess ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/5db3397b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 21:41:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:41:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.05 (07) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.144157.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Kornblume (Centaurea cyanus)

Ob Stadtlüüd woll weiten, wat ein *Trääms's *is?

(Über Stimmhaftigkeit oder -losigkeit des *s *läßt sich in den meisten
Fällen nichts aussagen, m.E. mit stimmlosem *s.*)
Trääms', Trems', Pl. -*sen*.
Weitere Bezeichnungen: *Kornblomen, Kuurnblaum, Tremissen', Thräms, Trehmse,
**Tremms, blage Träämsen, Trems' *(mit stimmhaftem *-s*) GÜLetschow.
Vgl.: *blag as 'ne Tremms; sin Näs' lücht't as ne Trems' *WAMalch.
*Bet as 'ne Träms' utseihn sin Lippen *REUT.
Volksglaube und -medizin: die Wurzel der Pflanze hilft gegen
*Näs'blöden,*wenn sie in der Johannisnacht ausgegraben ist und man sie
so lange in der
Hand hält, bis sie warm wird.
*träämsenblag' *kornblumenblau HARed.
Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert.

Tremissen, Trembsen, Tremse, Thräms, Trems, Tremms, Blagen Trems, Kurnblaum,
Sechel, Kaiserblaum.
Die schmucke Tremse stammt vom altsächsischen, noch jetzt in England
lebenden trim, d.h. fein, hübsch, schmuck. - "So bla'ch as 'ne Trems" sagt
man von einem Dinge, das ausserordentlich und wider die Gewohnheit blau ist.
Literatur: Die volkstümlichen Pflanzennamen Mecklnburgs von *Ernst
Krüger,*Rostock 1916 (Archiv des Vereins der Freunde der
Naturgeschichte in
Mecklenburg. 71 Jahr (1917.)
Anmerkung: nach diesem Buch wurden die Blumen IGA Rostock nachrichtlich
benannt (und ich erwarb dieses sehr wertvolle und begehrte Büchlein 25.2.1993
im Antiquariat Schwerin .. 50,- DM.)

Vor paar Tagen sah ich in einem Vorgarten wunderchöne
Tremsen, und gleich fiel mir dieser Beitrag ein.

Wie immer beste Grüße.
Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/a785ec34/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 23:08:08 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:08:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.160808.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.04 (07) [EN]

> From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.05.26 (05) [EN]
> Roger Thijs raised the topic of " *Verkavelingsvlaams,
Verkavelingsnederlands". In my opinion the main feature of this kind
of (reprehensible)
substandard Belgian Dutch, being neither standard Dutch nor dialect,
consists of using the inversed verbal forms for the second person, which
usually sound something like 'gade mee, doede gij' (ga je , doe jij). I
pride myself that my native tongue, Tiens (and also nearby Hoegaardens) is
the only dialect in all of Brabantish that has been spared this kind of what
I like to call "kreupel Nederlands". We say "gaat ge, doet gij" , *[Äx«] [d«
U xEù]* **I'm qu**ite sure a lot of people might want to disagree. I'm
looking forward to your opinion and remarks.
PS I hope the phonetic text will prove to be legible.*
**
**
Roger, I first wanted to say I didn't beleive you, but I did check the maps
in Weijnen's Nederlandse Dialectkunde and indeed the far south-east of
Vlaams-Brabant does not have the -de ending in the 2nd person as only
Brabantish dialects. What I still strongly disagree on however is that you
should take pride out of lacking this feature, finding that all other 2.7
mil Belgian Brabanders (and plenty more Dutch Brabanders) talk crippled
dutch because of this.
I don't say west-flems or Limburgers should take over this feature if it's
not part of their dialect, but in our 'contreien' it has been there since
the oldest Middelnederlands so at least historically (and etymologically) it
is at least equally correct as the (in my eyes forced) gaat ge. (I actually
hate people around here saying gaat ge or gaat gij because they think it
sounds more 'correct dutch'.)
I want to see one good reason why your gaat ge/gij would be "better dutch"
or even "better" in any way.
Greetings,
Diederik

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/15f15fc9/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 23:48:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:48:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (09) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.164821.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Marsha, you asked:

I'm curious about the origin and meaning of the word "peawadden," as in
"that scared the peawadden out of me."
Any ideas?

I can't find any etymological references for it at the moment, but I do have
a vague theory at least.

Looking at the context, it seems to be a "replacement" word for a word that
is not socially acceptable, typically considered either obscene or
blasphemous. Usually the first letter is a give-away. (Take your pick!)

At any rate, replacement words ("euphemisms" isn't the correct word) tend to
be chosen so as to be silly, nonsensical in the contexts within which they
are used, such as "bloody" for older "by our Lady", or "flippin'" or
"friggin'" for you-know-what.

So what might the meaning of "peawadden" or "pea-wadden" or "pea wadden" be?

Enter my theory, going back generations to the time of early European
settlement in America. And the expression seems to be American, or perhaps
rather *preserved* in American English.

Besides a type of edible legume, "pea" can stand for "pea-coat" or
"pea-jacket", known since the 18th century. This is supposed to go back to
Early Dutch *piejacke* > *pijjak*, a double-breasted sailor's jacket made
from *pie* > *pij*, a coarse type of fabric. (In Low Saxon we say *Piejack*
.)

Furthermore, I theorize that "wadden" comes from "waddin'", thus "wadding".
We are thus talking about a type of garment padding.

Go wad your pea with that!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/578823b4/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 16:00:30 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:00:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.090030.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (09) [EN]

Marsha and Ron. When Ron analyzed the word “peawadden” as derived from “pij”
the heavy fabric of which the coats of travelling clergy and others were
made, I immediately reacted with “stuffing”. That would be the left over
“pij” used as the interlining for a newer coat. I remember a coat that was
interlined with an old jacket of my Dad’s which I wore to school at the end
of WWII. Might that just be possible. Jacqueline, Seattle/USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Wow, Jacqueline! Thanks. That was just a piece I needed to add weight to my
little theory.

It's repeated below for those that missed it, including our new member that
just joined us from Cape Town:

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Marsha, you asked:

I'm curious about the origin and meaning of the word "peawadden," as in
"that scared the peawadden out of me."
Any ideas?

I can't find any etymological references for it at the moment, but I do have
a vague theory at least.

Looking at the context, it seems to be a "replacement" word for a word that
is not socially acceptable, typically considered either obscene or
blasphemous. Usually the first letter is a give-away. (Take your pick!)

At any rate, replacement words ("euphemisms" isn't the correct word) tend to
be chosen so as to be silly, nonsensical in the contexts within which they
are used, such as "bloody" for older "by our Lady", or "flippin'" or
"friggin'" for you-know-what.

So what might the meaning of "peawadden" or "pea-wadden" or "pea wadden" be?

Enter my theory, going back generations to the time of early European
settlement in America. And the expression seems to be American, or perhaps
rather *preserved* in American English.

Besides a type of edible legume, "pea" can stand for "pea-coat" or
"pea-jacket", known since the 18th century. This is supposed to go back to
Early Dutch *piejacke**pijjak*, a double-breasted sailor's jacket made from
*pie* > *pij*, a coarse type of fabric. (In Low Saxon we say *Piejack*.)

Furthermore, I theorize that "wadden" comes from "waddin'", thus "wadding".
We are thus talking about a type of garment padding.

Go wad your pea with that!

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/84a019fc/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 16:02:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:02:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.06 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.090255.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.05 (01) [NDS]

Leve Marcus,

midücht, Du büst da op wat stött. Hest Du mal op Hoochdüütsch en Wendung
höört as "Das macht mich staunen"? Orr kennst Du Bachmanns kaptaales Gedicht
"Und Böhmen liegt am Meer"? Da gifft dat de Reegn "Spielt die Komödien, die
lachen machen / und die zum Weinen sind." Dat schient mi desülvige
Ik-weer-mal-en-Gerundiv-Foorm to ween, man dat warrt lütt schreven, as Verb.
Man op Hoochdüütsch kenn ik dat bloots mit "machen". Man... is villicht
"lassen" grammatikaalsch bloots an desülvige Stee treden? Is "Das lässt mich
staunen" un "Das macht mich staunen" villicht desülvige Konstrukschoon? Ik
weet dat nich, man een vun Juuch Spraakkoryphäen weet doch wiss wat dorto!
;-)

Hartlich!

Marlou

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/7d83362a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 16:34:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:34:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.06 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.093404.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Suffix -*ing*

Hallo all' Lowland-ings (*ings *Pl.)

Hüsung, -ing
Das über das *Hus *(Haus) Gesagte bedarf einer Ergänzung.
Hüsung/Hüsing : die Behausung, das Obdach, die Wohnung.
Ein Beleg aus dem Jahre 1411 lautet: *Wi willen diese vorbenoemde Hüsinge
nemand verkopen. *Später gewann dann dieses Wort jene prägnante Bedeutung
'Niederlassungsrecht und damit verbunden der Anspruch auf eine Wohnung'. Und
in dieser Bedeutung ist das Wort dann durch Fritz Reuter in die Literatur
von Rang eingegangen. Er hat sein Versepos *Kein Hüsung *zeit seines Lebens
für sein bestes Werk gehalten und von ihm gesagt, er habe es mit seinem
Herzblut geschrieben.
Suffix *-ing *Hüsing. Dieses *-ing*  ist aber nicht gemeint, sondern ein
anderes. In *Häuhning, Döchting. *Und dann haben wir es in *Mudding, *
jener zärtlichen, liebevollen Benennung der Mutter. *Min leiw Mudding.*
Es ist also ein Suffix, das Wörter zu Kosewörtern macht. Un dieses
Kosesuffix -*ing, *wie wir es einmal nennen wollen, ist eines der
Hauptmerkmale der mecklenburgischen Mundart und nur ihr allein eigen. Es ist
eine sprachgeschichtlich junge Bildung.
1789 finden wir sie zum ersten Mal in der Anrede *Bröding, *Brüderchen.
Wir können noch einmal Reuter erwähnen:
Sein *Twäschenpoor */Zwillingspaar in der Stromtid *Lining *und* Mining, de
beiden Druwappel*, *sind Gestalten der Weltliteratur geworden.
Heute kann *-ing *fast schon an jedes Wort angehängt werden.
*Wo sühst du blassing ut, kömming mal her *und sogar, und das hört man heute
nicht selten, *tschüßing!*
Literatur: Jürgen Grundlach *Von Aant bis Zäg'*  Plattdeutsche Wörter und
Wendungen
ZENTRALHAUS - PUBLIKATION . LEIPZIG 1982
Anmerkung: Dr. Jürgen Gundlach (Wismar) nahm 1952 die Mitarbeit am
Wörterbuch (Wossidlo/Teuchert) auf - bei den Buchstaben *Kl.*
1965 übernahm der die Leitung der Warnemünder Arbeitsstelle. Bis zu seiner
Pensionierung 1991 konnte er gemeinsam mit seinen Mitarbeitern das
Wörterbuch-Vorhaben erfolgreich abschließen. Mit der 70. Lieferung zum 7.
und  letzten Band lag das Wörterbuch vor.
(Wi kennen uns gaut un hebben girn 'n Strämel up Platt vertellt.)

* Druwappel: Traubapfel, Traubäpfel

Hüt denn mal *Tschüßing.*
Hanne Hinz-*ing.*

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Folks,

Here just an explanatory note from me to say that the suffix *-ing* our *
Hinzing* or *Hanning* writes about above has nothing to do with the common
West Germanic suffix *-ing ~ -ung* but is a diminutive suffix unique to the
Low Saxon dialects of Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania, an area that used
to be predominantly Slavic speaking.

Many of you will probably remember that I mention it once in a while as a
most probably Slavic-derived diminutive suffix: *-inka* > *-ink ~ -ing*.

As you can see in the info Hanne posted, the suffix may be added even to
words other than nouns, such as to the German loan adjective *blass* (pale)
and to the Germanized imperative form of the verb 'to come':
*kömming!*("Real", "pure" Low Saxon strictly uses the verb root as the
singular
imperative form, thus *kamen* 'to come' -> *kaam!* 'come!', but under German
influence *kumm!* and such are used sporadically in the process of *
Sprachverfall* "language decay".) The above examples happen to be cases of
German interference. But I understand that the use of *-ing* is not
restricted to such cases. Hanne also uses it with *tschüß* (~ *adschüß*)
'good-bye'. (This happens to be of foreign origin too, assumed to be from
French *adieu*, though I still wonder about the *-s* and if it might not
come from Spanish *adios*, possibly loaned during the Spanish-Dutch
conflicts.) Again, *-ing* is not restricted to loanwords.

*Un tschüßing ook vun mi.
*
Reinhard (Reinke ~ Reining)/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/76a08c6c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 21:44:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:44:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.144411.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.06 (03) [DE-EN]

>From Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote: re Tschüß   (This happens to be of foreign origin too,
assumed to be from French *adieu* , though I still wonder about the *-s* and
if it might not come from Spanish *adios* , possibly loaned during the
Spanish-Dutch conflicts.)

I had always assumed that it came from the English " Cheers!" which would
explain the 's'.

Sadly for that theory we say Cheerio! to say Goodbye   and "Cheers!" as a
toast when we drink.

But "Cheers" is also used as a kind of "Thank you"

The sounds are so close that maybe there is an older use of "Cheers" instead
of "Cheerio" that it derives from.

Possible????

best wishes

Heather  from a (delightfully) rain drenched Worcestershire after 5 days of
temperatures higher than those in the Mediterranean !
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Heather!

You mentioned this theory on an earlier occasion. I must say that I find
something "attractive" about it, considering long-time contacts with English
among sailors of Northern Germany. Also, what I like is that you dare to
stretch etymologically.

The problem with it seems to be that apparently *tschüß* (which, as you
know, came to be imported into German) appears to come from *adschüß.*

Now ...  let's mix this up some more and ask if conversely "cheers!" for
"good-bye" might have been "inspired" by *tschüß!*, aided by "cheers!" for
"thanks!"...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA, where we got tired of the tropical heat and sent it off to
Europe

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/ed56395a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 21:32:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:32:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.06 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.143200.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.06 (03) [DE-EN]


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Here just an explanatory note from me to say that the suffix /-ing/ our
> /Hinzing/ or /Hanning/ writes about above has nothing to do with the common
> West Germanic suffix /-ing ~ -ung/ but is a diminutive suffix unique to the
> Low Saxon dialects of Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania, an area that used
> to be predominantly Slavic speaking.
>
> Many of you will probably remember that I mention it once in a while as a
> most probably Slavic-derived diminutive suffix: /-inka/ > /-ink ~ -ing/.
>
> As you can see in the info Hanne posted, the suffix may be added even to
> words other than nouns, such as to the German loan adjective /blass/ (pale)
> and to the Germanized imperative form of the verb 'to come': /kömming!/
> ("Real", "pure" Low Saxon strictly uses the verb root as the singular
> imperative form, thus /kamen/ 'to come' -> /kaam!/ 'come!', but under German
> influence /kumm!/ and such are used sporadically in the process of
> /Sprachverfall/ "language decay".)
>
Is it a general rule, that the imperative derives from the root? I've seen
many examples of forms both derived from the root and from the 2nd/3rd
person form from all regions and many different times. Until now I wasn't
able to find any system. Sadly none of the Wenker maps contains an
imperative that helps in this question. I suspect that it could be a matter
of dialect (although German influence plays a big role too. But perhaps not
the only role).

But in this case it is not necessary to blame German influence. Some
dialects have lengthened the vowel to 'komen' (and subsequently 'kamen'),
but many others have kept the older unlengthened form 'kommen'. I think,
there's a Wenker map for that, but the DIWA website is inaccessible at the
moment. So 'kömming' could just as well be "real" Low Saxon.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks, Marcus.

The rule, which is the same as in Dutch and other Low Frankish varieties
(?), seems to be applying to all language varieties that I have been
studying, certainly of the northern range and in what we may want to label
"modern" (going back to the 19th-century Romantic Movement). All of these
have the vowel lengthening you mentioned, a rule that did not affect the
second and third persons singular. (I've always thought of the
non-lengthening varieties as geographically marginal, but I may be wrong
there.)

In the varieties in whose imperative formation I've been assuming German
interference such forms seem to occur sporadically, typically *komm! ~ kumm!
* ~ *kümm!*, such as in Groth's works (in Dithmarschen dialect) and in the
song "Dat du mien Leevsten büst" (*Kumm bi de Nacht ...*)

Anyway, I think it would be really interesting to get to the bottom of this.
I suggest that we are dealing with interference where only a handfull of
verbs have abberrant imperative forms, including vowel shortening in
varieties that did not consistently undergo it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/d925cd3b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 22:24:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:24:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.06 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.152427.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

Seattle, USA, where we got tired of the tropical heat and sent it off to
Europe


Speaking of Europe and the USA, and the ocean that separates them, I know
that jokingly it's sometimes referred to as the pond. I wonder if the
Atlantic also has nicknames that hint more at its vast, brutal and dangerous
character (thinking of Titanic and a recent plane crash). Low Saxon has
"Blanke Hans" for the North Sea and given the maritime culture of the
Lowlands, I was thinking such names may exist for the Atlantic Ocean as
well. Who knows?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/1b0f228a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 00:20:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 17:20:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2009.06.06 (07) [AF]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.172020.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: dealangeam <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" [A]

Beste Ron,

Ek weet nie of die volgende intligting al op die poslyn verskyn het nie.

 Laaglanders kan na Afrikaans luister op die sender “Radio Sonder Grense”
(RSG).

Met internet is dit ook beskikbaar by

http://www.rsg.co.za/

Klik net op “Luister”. Lank lewe Afrikaans.

Mooi loop

At de Lange
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Baie dankie, beste At!

Dis die eerste keer dat ek die bostaande boodskap ontvang het.

Ja, RSG is werklik 'n uitstekende hulpbron vir Afrikaans-sprekers en
-leerders in die hele wêreld. Dankie vir die wenk.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, VSA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/5d2bc454/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 15:18:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:18:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.07 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.081838.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Breitwegerich als Orakel

Leiw' Frünn',
ick fang hier mit'n "Kindergedicht" an un verklor denn nahstens de Saak.

*Fifaderblatt du Loegenblatt*
(6. Fassung 14.06.1988)

Fifaderblatt, du Loegenblatt
dau mi upstunds vertellen,
wenn ick mi soeben Kinner wünsch',
woväl warst du mi mellen?

Ick plück di af, ick riet di af,
krieg bi den' Stähl di fungen,
un tell an em de Bänner nah,
wer weit't, ob Dirn, ob Jungen...

Na, wat is dat! Wat is denn dat?
Wat sall denn dit nu heiten?
So Stücker soeben ick bestell,
man, twei lötst du mi weiten.

Du Loegenblatt! Du Loegenblatt!
Lat mit den' Wind di fleigen.
Wat sall ick blot mit twei lütt' Goern, -
ick lat mi nich bedreigen!

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*Wäg'blatt *n. Großer Wegerich, plantago major; plantago 'Wegeblad';
*Wägeblad,* meist Pl.: *Wähgbläder, Wegbläder, Bred Wegbläder,
Wäg'bläder, *benutzt
als Heilmittel für Wunden und Impfpocken, *utwräusen/*ausdrücken,
ausquetschen; *Wäg'bläder würden ok rookt; Wäg'bläder sall 'n bi sick
drägen, denn fecht't einen nicks an*; die Kinder reißen ein Blatt ab und
betrachten die herausragenden Blattnerven als Orakel, das die Zahl ihrer
zukünftigen Kinder anzeigt oder, das einem Mädchen die Zahl der Jahre
anzeigt, bis es heiratet.

Syn.: *Aderkrut, Brüjamsbläder, Fifaderblatt, -krut, Lägenblatt *(von legen)
*, Vagelsaat, Wäg'breid', -tritt, -wöttel, Unvertred *Reut.

Die Kinder/Mädchen nannten es auch *Loegenblatt/*Lügenblatt, haben sie nun
ihren Wunsch gelogen, oder war die Anzahl der weißen Fäden
eine Lüge.* *Ursprünglich aber *Läge-Blatt *: Blatt, das man auf Wunden
legt, damit sie heilen.
**
Man kannt't je mal versäuken ...

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/71d54259/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 15:55:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:55:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.07 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.085520.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.06 (03) [DE-EN]

Ron wrote:

"Folks,

Here just an explanatory note from me to say that the suffix *-ing* our *
Hinzing* or *Hanning* writes about above has nothing to do with the common
West Germanic suffix *-ing ~ -ung* but is a diminutive suffix unique to the
Low Saxon dialects of Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania, an area that used
to be predominantly Slavic speaking.

Many of you will probably remember that I mention it once in a while as a
most probably Slavic-derived diminutive suffix: *-inka* > *-ink ~ -ing*."
*****************************************************************

In what way does this differ from the *ing* suffix seen in Anglo-Saxon place
names meaning "people or children of ..." such as Hastings (*Hastingas* -
Hasta's people)  Nottingham (*Snotingasham* - home of Snota's people)?

Or in modern English diminuitives like "fledgling" (a little bird),
"fingerling" (a little fish) etc?

Are these ultimately of Slavic origin?

Paul
Derby
England

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi, Paul!

The suffixes you are talking about seem to be Germanic ones.

In the sense of "person/people of ..." "-ing" can be found in "Fleming" ~ *
vlaming* and such. I don't think it has a diminutive quality, certainly no
endearing one.

As for "-ling", it has an "l" in it of course. It may be a compound suffix,
but I don't think anyone can be sure. Originally it tended to denote
something small (such as in "starling" and the more recently created
"fledgling" and "fingerling"), rarely in an endearing way (as in "dear" >
"darling"), perhaps even in a pejorative way, such as in "underling" and
"hireling".

The suffix *-ling* may be old but occurs only sporadically, such as in the
German word *Schmetterling* for 'butterfly', originally from today's state
of Saxony, thus of Eastern Central German origin. Given its eastern origin,
it may be of Slavic background and thus coincide with English "-ling". I
don't know.

I am not suggesting that we should automatically assume Slavic origin when
words and suffixes are unique to Germanic varieties used in formerly
Slavic-speaking regions. But the *-ink ~ -ing* of Mecklenburg has an
overridingly endearing quality like Slavic *-inka*, and it is used just like
it. Furthermore, its western boundary pretty much coincides with that of the
former western boundary of Slavic varieties.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/e7caa1b3/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 16:22:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:22:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.092200.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L: vocabulary

 The Dutch "*tof*" is now also officially French and will be listed in the
Larousse 2010.
Regards,
Roger

*Annex 1:*

*Tof, Obama* est dans le Petit Larousse 2010 !
BELGA
vendredi 05 juin 2009, 14:58
Le Petit Larousse, version 2010, s’enrichit d’une centaine de nouveaux mots,
locutions, sens et expressions. Des personnalités y font également leur
entrée, dont le président Barack Obama. Et le super belgicisme « *tof *».
Sortie le 15 juin.
*Tof, Obama* est dans le Petit Larousse 2010 !
© AP.
Un bon nombre des nouveaux mots du Petit Larousse édition 2010 se rapportent
aux technologies et aux nouveaux usages culturels. Font ainsi leur entrée :
*e-learning* (apprentissage sur base du multimédia), *buzz *(retentissement
médiatique), *geek* (accro d’Internet), *mobinaute* (utilisateur d’Internet
à partir d’un appareil mobile), *peer to peer* (échange direct de données
entre ordinateurs reliés à Internet), *webradio, webtélé, e-book* (livre
numérisé), *poster *(publier sur Internet), *adresse IP* (numéro
d’identification d’un appareil connecté à Internet), *réseau social, Web
2.0, vidéo à la demande, hameçonnage* (technique de fraude par courriel)…
Quatre mots typiquement belges sont désormais répertoriés dans le
dictionnaire : *horeca*, *lacquemant* (une gaufrette ovale fourrée de sirop
de sucre brun aromatisé à la fleur d’oranger, spécialité liégeoise), *
nominette* et *tof *(super, extra).
Le Larousse intègre aussi de nouvelles expressions : *empreinte écologique,
effet yo-yo* (alternance de prise et de perte de poids), *fumer la moquette,
point barre !, au taquet, trouble du comportement alimentaire, faire une
saucette* (expression québécoise signifiant faire trempette)…
Si des personnalités font une entrée relativement rapide dans le
Larousse (*Barack
Obama, Audrey Tautou, Sébastien Loeb*), d’autres auront dû patienter plus
longtemps. C’est le cas de *Fanny Ardant, Jane Birkin, Francis Cabrel,
Hillary Clinton, George Clooney, Jean-Pierre Marielle, Jean Rochefort*.
Trois nouveaux venus sont belges : *Herman Van Rompuy*, le
mathématicien *Jacques
Tits* (français d’origine belge) et le danseur et chorégraphe *Wim
Vandekeybus.*
quoted from:
http://www.lesoir.be/culture/livres/tof-obama-est-dans-le-petit-2009-06-05-710519.shtml

*Annex 2*: As it is listed on the WNT CDROM

*TOF (I),* bnw. en bijw. Ontleening van hebr. tôb „goed”. Verg.: dof(t),
duf(t) (MARTIN u. LIENHARDT, Elsäss. Ma.); toff, tofft enz. (SCHMELLER,
Bayer. Wtb.); tof (FISCHER, Schwäb. Wtb.). Bargoensch woord, in het geheele
ndl. taalgebied als zoodanig in gebruik (zie MOORMANN, Bronnenb., Reg.); als
„slang” -woord algemeen bekend in de straattaal van de holl. groote steden
en de omgeving daarvan. MOORMANN geeft voor Groenstraat den bijvorm toft (p.
256), SCHUERM. voor L. v. Aalst toef; bovendien vermeldt MOORMANN, Bronnenb.
450 nog: toffiel (jargon van een paardenhandelaar); zie ook beneden onder
Afl.
Positief waardeerend woord, dat b. v. de volgende bet. kan hebben.
1) Van zaken. Betrouwbaar, degelijk, goed van kwaliteit. Barg. || Toef
(kramerslatijn), goed, wel, of het tegenovergestelde van: loensch: dat zijn
toeffe zaken, SCHUERM. [L. v. Aalst, 1870]. Toffe truk, goede waar,
MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 239 [St.-Truiden, 1892]. Tof, goed, 440 [jargon paarden-
en veekoopers, 1917]. Toftèhens, goed geld, 256 [Groenstraat, 1924]. FONCKE,
Mech. Dial. 64 [1932].
— Als bijw. || Hij kwam er tof af, VERWOERT, bij MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 208 [±
1860]. Hij is tof in de kloften, hij is goed gekleed, Ald. Mechels maast tof
gepierd, ik heb wel gespeeld, 228 [Roeselare, 1890]. Tof, goed. Hij peest
tof, hij werkt goed, 375 a [Haaksbergen, 1922]. — Het plan van m'n
grootvader zaniker heb ik dan ook maar volvoerd en 't is me tof gelukt,
KOKADORUS, Amstelv. 52 [1909]. Zij verdienden zeer veel geld en zaten tof in
de klofte, V. AALST, Mart. en B. 112 [1944].
2) Van zaken, inz. van bepaalde omstandigheden, van een bepaald feit.
Aangenaam, lekker, prettig, gezellig, leuk en derg. Ook als uitroep, die
soms instemming te kennen geeft; vandaar de omschrijving „ja” die door
MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 287 voor de streek van Aalst opgegeven wordt. || Toffe
schoentjes (Zaandamsch, ook te Amst., en ook wel elders), Aant. v.
BOEKENOOGEN [± 1890]. Vin je dat niet tof, aardig, gezellig, Aant. v. A.
BEETS [Heiloo, 1892]. Hoe tof, Ald. Tof. Dat is tof, of alleen: tof! = goed,
leuk, prettig, MEIJER, Woorden 112 [1919]. — Hij speult een rolletje, dat
tof is. Hij speult voor den Ongeduldigen, BODDAERT, Poët. en Proz. Port. 163
[ed. post. 1836]. „Gerookte paling, dikke.” „Dat's tof,” schreeuwt de
snijer, die dol op paling is, V. MAURIK, Amst. bij D. en N. 79 [1897].
Kerwelsoep is ... 'n tof ete bij mijn gezond, HEIJERMANS, Sabbath 63 [1903].
Stormweer, jò — maar toch tòf, om je kop eens fijn uit te laten ragen aan
den dijk, BRUSSE, O. M. 2, 290 [1918]. „Gaan we bij m'n vrouw koffie drinken
en een lollige middag d'rvan maken. Goed?” „Tof!” riep Jan, DE JONG, F. v.
W. 346 [1928]. „'t Is-t-er zeker een toffe boel, niet?” vroeg hij. „Met al
die linke gozers daar bij mekaar?” 353 [1928]. De hele voorraad leit in 't
kippehok. Die kerel kan z'n eige mottig zoeke. Drie minute te laat was ie en
wij zate een kruisjassie te make, net of we al een uur bezig ware. Is ie
effe tof? BAKKER, Branding 217 [1941]. We mogen wel eens kankeren op die
goeie ouwe stad (t. w. Amsterdam), op zijn nauwe straten en vele hoge
bruggen, maar in ons hart vinden we het een toffe stad, DAAN, Hij zeit wat
50 [1948].
— Als bijw. || Daar zit hij tof, BOUMAN [1871]. Dat is tof gemaakt
(Zaandamsch, ook te Amst. en ook wel elders), Aant. v. BOEKENOOGEN [± 1890].
3) Van personen. Betrouwbaar, eerlijk, loyaal. Barg. || Tof, goed, degelijk;
ook kalm en eerlijk, Boevent. 68 [1906]. Tof gaje, goed volk, MOORMANN,
Bronnenb. 291 a [Tilburg-Schijndel, 1922]. Blijkbaar met mijn antwoord
tevreden stak hij de Nieuwendijk weer over om zijn kornuiten te vertellen,
dat die nieuwe wel „tof” was. Na een tijdje kwamen er tenminste een paar
naar me toe met de vaderlijke raad om op te passen voor „stille russen”, Het
Vrije Volk 19 April 1947, 5.
4) Nauw hierbij aansluitend: prettig, vlot in den omgang, sympathiek,
„geschikt”. Blijkens een aant. van A. BEETS [1891] in Den Haag ook: lief,
gezegd van een kind enz. || Rebecca zou 'n tof meissie voor 'm zijn,
HEIJERMANS, Ghetto3 24 [1898]. 'n Tof pietschoppertje, een kedin klein
schorempie, BRUSSE, Boefje 160 [1903]. QUERIDO, Jordaan 1, 342 [1912]. Ik
was altijd fesoendeluk: ... nooit 'n ander gehad as die ouë zeurige saaierd,
die toffe slaapmus, thuis, SMEDING, Stil St. 1, 102 [1920]. Pienter is hij
en — wat de Amsterdammers noemen — „tof”. Op z'n 25 jarig jubileum ... heeft
'n feestredenaar gezegd: „Er zijn drie groote Louis: Louis Bouwmeester,
Louis de Vries en Louis Davids, maar Davids is de „tofste”, E. VISSER,
Nederl. Cabaret 96 [1920]. In welke kazerne je lag. O, dan kon je net een
boodschap voor 'em doen .... Natuurlik wou je voor zo'n toffe kapitein graag
wat doen, DE JONG, F. v. W. 356 [1928]. Een lollige vrijer (of een lekkere
knul) is een leuke kerel, een toffe vent, DAAN, Hij zeit wat 48 [1948].
— Zeer gewoon in de uitdrukking toffe jongen, graag pretmakende, „lollige”
jongen of man, fideele kerel, vlot in den omgang. In het barg. valt de
nadruk wellicht meer op het eerlijk-, betrouwbaar-zijn. || Toffe jongens,
goede, echte, prettige lui. Ook wel ironisch, MEIJER, Woorden 112 [1919]. —
Zie dien sergeant! Wat wil hij toch ...? Wacht, daar staat hij ... en
spreekt .... met een zeer lief meisje .... Nu, hij is dan ook een toffe
jongen, Alm. v. Holl. Blijgeest. 1841, 71. B. is 'n toffe jongen,
HEIJERMANS, Diamantstad 121 [1904]. Hij had gedacht bij deze twee toffe
jongens een reuzensucces te hebben met zijn verhaal, DE JONG, F. v. W. 352
[1928]. PHILIPS, Bruiloft in Europa8 28 [1934]. En dat we toffe jongens
zijn, dat willen we weten, Begin v. e. alg. bekenden volksdeun.
— Voor andere dan de in de hoofddefinitie genoemde taalkringen geldt toffe
jongen ter aanduiding van een brani-achtigen jongeman uit een bepaalde
maatschappelijke groep. || Een oploopje op straat ..., veel publiek uit
Zutphens achterbuurten, de toffe jongens van de Leugenbrug, MEINSMA, De
Zwarte Dood 127 [1924]. Een onsympathieke toffe jongen, een flinkdoenerige
kwast met zijn praatjes en zijn eeuwige whiskeyflesch, L. HUIZINGA, Tien gl.
wijn 14 [1942].
5) Bepaaldelijk van een meisje: mooi, knap. Barg. || Tof, goed, schoon, wel,
braaf; een tôve geeze, een schoon meisje, MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 273 b
[Rotwelsch v. Brussel, 1897]. Een toffe meid, een knappe meid, DE VRIES
[1909]. — Anders 'n toffe mokkel .... Maar waas gibt dòs? .... Geen cent op
de wereld, HEIJERMANS, Sabbath 87 [1903].
Afl. — Tofferen, van de vergrootende trap toffer (eveneens door MOORMANN,
Bronnenb. 149 vermeld voor Zele). Beteren. || 't Za wel tofferen, 't Zal wel
beteren, MOORMANN, t. a. p. [Zele, 1840].
— Toffig, goed. Opgegeven voor zndl. handelscentra als Kortrijk, Roeselare,
Aalst, Gent, Brussel, Antw. Zie MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 287.
Samenst. Misschien is tofferad, dat door VERWOERT [± 1860] wordt opgegeven
als benaming voor „drie gulden” (bij MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 212), als zoodanig
te beschouwen; t. a. p. wordt nl. rad opgegeven als benaming voor „daalder”

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/e6added7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 16:23:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:23:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.092359.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (05) [EN]

The German Wikipedia article on the topic “tschüs” is quite informative:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tschüs<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsch%C3%BCs>
In simmary, it seems as if there might be connections towards both Spain and
Portugal (as Ron indicated) and to France, the latter possibly via Walloon
“adjuus”. The French original is more easily recognizable in the Rhineland
version “tschö” (from adieu), while the South German “adé” might indicate a
loan directly from Latin.

Greetings

Wolfram

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/77610517/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 15:57:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:57:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.085748.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (05) [EN]

The German Wikipedia article on the topic “tschüs” is quite informative:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tschüs<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsch%C3%BCs>
In simmary, it seems as if there might be connections towards both Spain and
Portugal (as Ron indicated) and to France, the latter possibly via Walloon
“adjuus”. The French original is more easily recognizable in the Rhineland
version “tschö” (from adieu), while the South German “adé” might indicate a
loan directly from Latin.

Greetings

Wolfram

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/47f97d78/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 19:59:16 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:59:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.125916.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

I am not suggesting that we should automatically assume Slavic origin when
words and suffixes are unique to Germanic varieties used in formerly
Slavic-speaking regions. But the *-ink ~ -ing* of Mecklenburg has an
overridingly endearing quality like Slavic *-inka*, and it is used just like
it. Furthermore, its western boundary pretty much coincides with that of the
former western boundary of Slavic varieties.

Slavic -inka is a curious suffix. There is so much similarity (both
morphologically and semantically) with Germanic -in, used to make a noun
feminine plus the diminutive -ken; the combination then has an endearing
effect of course. Hard to believe there has never been any mutual influence.
Radiation from West to East? Common root on a PIE-level?
Come to think of it...any idea whether Turkic "kara" and Russian черный for
"black" could be related on an even higher level? Possible connection with
Lowlands: harder (fish living in the Atlantic...Mugil curema...German
Äsche).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I'm collapsing "Etymology" and "Morphology" because they seem to be
converging.

Luc, I agree that it gets kind of "weird" when you look across language
group boundaries for morphological commonalities. Actually, I'm pretty sure
that in many such cases we are talking about connections on an Indo-European
level. For instance, there is the Iranian approximative-diminutive *-ča*,
borrowed into Turkic, sometimes as *-(i)nča*, which seems suspiciously like
*-ka* and *-inka*.

And, yes, things often continue across family boundaries, both as far as
roots and affixes are concerned, and the personal pronouns in Indo-European,
Uralic and Altaic start looking very much alike when you "boil them down."
No wonder people like Ilyich-Svitich postulated larger families. But for
decades isolationist researchers have been dismissing anything promising as
due to contacts, even within what to most people are definitely families
(such as Altaic). The thing is that such possible connections seem to go so
far back that proving them is pretty much impossible.

By the way, Luc, am I on the right track when I etymologize your last name
(Hellinckx) as Halle+ing+s(e)? That's where the "person of ..." suffix *-ing
* is that Paul mentioned. You still live in Halle (Belgium), don't you? No
wonder you tend to get cabin fever and feel the need to go on very long
"exotic" tours once in a while. ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/e9aeaec4/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 22:25:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:25:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.152504.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (03) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

re Tschüs

interestingly the OED ( my copy is old - 1966) does not include "Cheers" or
Cheerio"..... so maybe Ron's theory could fill the gap???!!!

Heather

----------

From: Marsha <marshatrue at mtangel.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (01) [EN]
Thanks, you two!  That makes perfect sense, as there is also "scared the
stuffing out of me."  Pij wadding....yeah - I like it!
Marsha Wilson
Mt. Angel, Oregon

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Well, Heather, I wouldn't go as far as taking it to the OED as yet. ;-)

Marsha, actually it's *you* that deserves a fat gold star for bringing such
a juicy, truly Lowlandic morsel to the table. It was delicious. I'm sure our
Jacqueline would agree. You made the Kahuna smile.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/8b2a4111/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 15:52:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:52:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2009.06.08 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.085227.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2009.06.04 (04) [EN]

Hi Ron,

Thank you very much for your advice. The font I use is SilManuscripIPA (True
Type) Version Altsys Fontographer 4.08/18/93. I wil try the 2 pickers and
see where I get then. I'll let you know.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/0a26108b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 15:55:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:55:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (02) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.085547.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (03) [NL]

Hallo Roland,

Bedankt voor de reactie. Ik was ermee bekend (ik heb namelijk een paar
West-Vlaamse vrienden) dat het West-Vlaams ook gespaard is van die
vreselijke 'de-vormen' en dat de je-vormen tot de gewone spreektaal behoren

Vriendelijke groeten,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (08) [EN]

Hi Diederik,

Thanks for giving your view on this issue. Of course, I had expected
dissenting opinions. I simply gave my personal preference and I have no
problem with people seeing things differently. I know that a form like '
zegde' is the exact counterpart of Middle Dutch 'seghdi '. Up to about 30
years ago 'ge, 'gij' were perfectly acceptable forms in Standard Dutch  ( in
its Southern variety). Nowadays these forms are somewhat discredited, though
most people use them. When I talk to friends in Diest I use them in my kind
of general Dutch (I don't venture to speak the local lingo, as I'm afraid I
would bungle it). There is a strong tendency these days  among politicians
to speak with 'je' (although for some mysterious reason 'jij' and 'jou' are
shunned)  especially when talking in front of a microphone or TV-camera.
Unfortunately quite a few stumble when they revert to 'u' as an object form.
I tend to think then: they had better stick to 'ge, gij' if they can't
consistently use 'je'. When I expressed my dislike of enclitic '-de', I was
mainly thinking of its use in Flemish TV-serials. They pretend to be
standard (?) Dutch, but in fact they are in some kind of preposterous
non-language (nep-Nederlands) . That is the sort of speech I said I
abhorred. You may like it, but I don't.
I did take exception at your claim (based on Weijnen's conviction that "the
far south-east of Vlaams-Brabant does not have the -de ending in the
2ndperson ".
This is pertinently incorrect as I know firsthand. I was born and raised in
Tienen, but my mother originated from Melkwezer, a small village in the
exact centre of  'Getelands', which is spoken in a region somewhat west of
the river Grote Gete to the  Kleine Gete (Diest is not in this region). I
know the language of this region. So I spoke Tiens and I learnt my mother's
dialect. You can take my word for it  when I say that ' contrary to what
Weijnen claims, the enclitic -de is used in all of this Getelands . In
allof Getelands but
not in Tienen and Hoegaarden (and perhaps in a few adjacent villages of
Tienen like Kumtich an Hakendover. For decades I haven't lived in Tienen,
but when I, rarely,   meet old friends from Tienen I speak Tiens.With
relatives from Melkwezer, whom I see more often, I speak their dialect. So
in these circumstances I use the enclitic -de myself. I think it is
self-evident to use it in dialect, but not in a form of speech that goes
beyond the local sphere.

Greetings,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/2aa7d4b3/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 15:57:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:57:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.08 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.085727.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (09) [EN]

Marsha asked about “peawadden.”

I come from Texas and have family roots in Tennessee, so most of what I have
to say regards English spoken in the southern USA.  I’ve always heard that
word pronounced as “peawaddel” with syllabic “l” instead of a syllabic “n”.
This thread makes me wonder if I’ve misheard the word all these years.  I
don’t believe I have, but can anyone confirm that?

Mark Brooks

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/68b6da33/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 17:11:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:11:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.101128.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (06) [NL]

Hallo Luc,

In Tienen they say 'ne man, een vra:, e kind'. An so they do in all of
Getelands. I myself speak General Dutch (the Southern variety, with ge/ gij)
almost all the time. Only when I go to Tienen (which I rarely do nowadays)
will I speak Tiens with friends. I speak my mother's dialect (Melkwezers)
when see my relatives on my mother's side. I have no objection to the
northern variety of Dutch (Hollandish) and I have no problems whatsoever to
talk it. Some years ago I went on a threeweek journey with an all-Dutch
group and so I spoke like them. I don't make the usual (Flemish) mistakes of
mixing up 'je' with  'u' (object form), though I'm quite sure they wouldn't
object in the least to my using 'ge/gij'. But I do find it a bit odd to use
nothern Dutch in my own country.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (02) [EN-NL]

Roger:
the MAND-site is online again, so i checked it indeed :-) Tienen and
Goetsenhoven give forms zij chij and zè chij, so indeed without -de but
without any -t at all. So I assume it's also ga chij/go chij instead of gaat
gij?
(source: www.meertens.knaw.nl/mand/database)
 And I don't like the TV soap language either, being mostly actors from
around Antwerp speaking way too proper Dutch with still a horrible
Antwerpian pronunciation (sounds like a contradiction, aye?) and indeed the
-de forms. Now I think I understand more your horror - I thought you had
something against people using -de in general. But what displeases me most
is the Hollandisms and 'try-to-talk-Dutch' of these series, it's indeed a
strange combination. Altho I think they should keep the -de, but also talk
way more dialect, haha. But at least they don't use jij and jou, for me
indeed still words I can't get out of my mouth (except when I'm in Holland
of course:-))
Greets, Diederik

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/c38040c5/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 17:07:34 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:07:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.08 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.100734.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.06 (04) [EN]

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org <mailto:list at marcusbuck.org>>

> But in this case it is not necessary to blame German influence. Some
> dialects have lengthened the vowel to 'komen' (and subsequently 'kamen'),
> but many others have kept the older unlengthened form 'kommen'. I think,
> there's a Wenker map for that, but the DIWA website is inaccessible at the
> moment. So 'kömming' could just as well be "real" Low Saxon.
>

There's no Wenker map for 'kamen' directly, but for the PPP (<
http://diwa.info/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=312>), which should basically be the same
as the infinitive. And it seems I was wrong. I guess, I confused it with the
rather diverse lengthening distribution patterns of 'könnt'/'köönt' (or will
'kaamt' show similar diverse patterns?). At least the PPP is lengthened to
'kamen' in all of Mecklenburg. The only areas with non-lengthened forms are
some few places with aberrant forms in Mecklenburg and Vorpommern (and my
own dialect of "Stoder Geestplatt" which has 'kommen' too). But I'm not
sure, to which degree these findings apply to imperative and present tense
forms.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.06 (04) [EN]

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org <mailto:list at marcusbuck.org>>

> Is it a general rule, that the imperative derives from the root? I've seen
> many examples of forms both derived from the root and from the 2nd/3rd
> person form from all regions and many different times. Until now I wasn't
> able to find any system. Sadly none of the Wenker maps contains an
> imperative that helps in this question. I suspect that it could be a matter
> of dialect (although German influence plays a big role too. But perhaps not
> the only role).
>
The Wenker atlas has four maps about imperative forms: 'geh', 'tu', 'sag'
and 'bleib'. 'sag' doesn't help us at all, cause the first and second person
forms have the same stem in both German and Low Saxon ('ich sag' - 'du
sagst' in German, 'ik segg' - 'du seggst' in Low Saxon). 'geh', 'tu' and
'bleib' are a bit more useful. Although they have the same stem in German
('ich gehe' - 'du gehst', 'ich tue' - 'du tust', 'ich bleibe' - 'du
bleibst'), they differ in Low Saxon ('ik gah' - 'du geihst', 'ik do' - 'du
deist', 'ik bliev' - 'du bliffst'). This difference is present in all Low
Saxon dialects, so we can draw some conclusions from that. _All_ dialects
show the imperative forms 'do', 'gah' and 'bliev' (or the respective
dialectal variants of it) and none show imperative forms like 'dei', 'geih'
or 'bliff'. So my question above "Is it a general rule, that the imperative
derives from the root?" can be answered: Yes, without German interference
the imperative always takes the forms from the infinitive. The problem is
now, that Wenker does not tell us, wht happens _with_ German interference.
Are there any dialects, that generally follow the German rule, if the German
forms differ? Or does German interference only occur spontaneously (but at a
high rate)?

Marcus Buck

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Hi, Marcus!

Congratulations and thanks for that splendid piece of research at short
notice!

I am pretty sure that there *are* dialects out there in which the
straightforward imperative system has been disrupted by German interference.
I suspect that they exist not only at the periphery, near the boundary with
Central German, but also in the vicinity of large cities. In fact, I think
that this particular type of interference is relatively old, going back at
least to the 19th century. Not only do you get *kumm!* (for *kaam!*) in the
song *Dat du mien Leevsten büst* but also in the works of Klaus Groth
(1819–1899), a native of Dithmarschen, an area close to Hamburg.

Now that we seem to have established what the original imperative system is
I need to add a piece of information that sort of "mildly contradicts" my
own initial, *simplified* description.

"The (familiar) second person singular imperative is identical with the verb
root" is accurate in dialects that have lost final *-e* or the "drawl tone"
(*Sleeptoon*), also known as "superlength" (*Œverlängd*). (As some
Lowlanders may remember, in some varieties "deleted" final *-e* causes the
preceding long vowel or diphthong to receive additional length and a final
voiced stop or fricative does not undergo final devoicing; e.g.
*Huus*[huːs] 'house',
*H**ü**se > **H**ü**üs'* [hyːˑz] 'houses', *Bruud* [bruːt] 'bride', *Br**ü**de
> **Br**ü**üd'* [bryːˑ(d)] 'brides'.)

Where phonological conditions are right, this plays a role in the (familiar)
second person singular imperative in varieties with *-e* or drawl tone. In
other words, in one form or another these varieties preserve the old
imperative *-e*. In yet other words, the (familiar) second person singular
imperative consists of the verb root plus *-e*, but the *-e* is dropped
where the root ends with a vowel (e.g. *ga!* 'go!') and the drawl tone does
not apply either if there is no voiced final consonant (as in
*laat!*'let!'). (This system is similar to the base German system;
e.g.
*gehe!* 'go!', *sitze!* 'sit!'. I suspect the Dutch system went through a
similar process of *-e* loss in the imperative.)

For instance, in one of Groth's works (*Min Modersprak*) you find the phrase
*Nu be!* 'Now pray!' *Be!* comes from *bede!* which became *beed'* (with
drawl tone) and, as in some other varieties, the *-d* comes to be deleted in
drawl tone situations (as also in Dutch, e.g. *lui* 'people', cf. Low Saxon
*L**ü**de > **L**ü**üd'* [lyːˑd] ~ *L**ü** *[lyː]).

So, while the initially described imperative system still stands in numerous
dialects, the original system, preserved in some dialects, has a final *-e*.
(I don't want to call it "schwa" because none of the varieties I am familiar
with pronounces it as a schwa.)

What you can say in the way of a rule in these varieties is that the
familiar imperative is the same as the first person present tense form,
since it, too, has a *-e* or drawl tone; e.g. *ik bede ~ **ok beed' ~
ik be*'I pray' (as in German; e.g.
*ich bet**e**, ich geh**e**, ich sitz**e*).

This old *-e* is preserved medially everywhere in second and third person
present tense verbs whose roots end with a vowel; e.g.

Root: ga- 'go'
du ga-e-st > gaist (written *geihst*)
he ga-e-t > gait (written *geiht*)

This system seems to reveal a fossilized vowel alternation:

Root: dou- 'do' (Old Saxon *dô*)
du *dô-e-st > *da-e-st > gaist (written *deist*)
he *dô-e-t > *da-e-t > dait (written *deit*)

Theoretically, we should have forms like **doist* and **doit* here.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/b607b5c2/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 18:19:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:19:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.111932.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.08 (04) [EN]

And Roger, ne man, een vraa, e kind with 3 different articles for each
gender exists in every Brabantish dialect, although feminine and neuter are
starting to fall together into 'een' with most younger people.
This three-way declension of articles usualyl also exists in Brabant for
adjectives in long vowel or diphthong + n,
ne kleine man, een klein vrou, e klei kind, ne schoënen otto, een schoën
vrou, e schoë vogelke/tje. Also here the neuter forms seem to add the +n of
the stem and feminine form again in younger dialect.
Diederik

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/226063bd/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 21:08:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:08:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.08 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.140800.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.08 (03) [EN]

Mark, Ron, Marsha Re Peawadden (again). I all of a sudden remembered too
that Dutch “*watten*” is cotton wool. Hence “een kind in de watten leggen” =
to spoil a child.

Also I think that English “*wad*”as in a wad of money or tobacco must be
related. But now I am asking myself whether the Dutch word “*wad*” which
means a dry place to *wade* through the river and “*wadden*” as places that
are located on the outside of the dyke, but which fall dry at low tide,
hence “Waddenzee”, have any relationship to English “wad”? Add to this that
Dutch “*wadden*” also can mean the mist that rises from the marshes and that
in English mist is often described as “pea soup”. We need an etymologist
here!!!

Groetjes, Jacqueline

Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/9a8834a8/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 21:17:29 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:17:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.08 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.141729.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Contacts

 I think the link below is interesting for Continental-Europe - US
immigration history,
Regards,
Roger
Forwarded: .... For your info:
please have a look at the website of the American Friends of the Red Star
Line
www.redstarlinefriends.org
this very recent non-for profit based in Philadelphia is supported by the
Van Mieghem Foundation.
The war drawing by Van Mieghem (see our previous E-mail) auctioned recently
in Antwerp went
to a private collector for 11.685 euros or ca. 16.000 USD
rgds, Erwin Joos, curator, Van Mieghem Museum

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/bcea0c0d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 21:20:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:20:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (09) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.142004.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (06) [EN]

> From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.08 (04) [EN]
> And Roger, ne man, een vraa, e kind with 3 different articles for each
gender exists in every Brabantish dialect, although feminine and neuter are
starting to fall together into 'een' with most younger people.
> This three-way declension of articles usualyl also exists in Brabant for
adjectives in long vowel or diphthong + n,
ne kleine man, een klein vrou, e klei kind, ne schoënen otto, een schoën
vrou, e schoë vogelke/tje. Also here the neuter forms seem to add the +n of
the stem and feminine form again in younger dialect.
Does anyone have an idea why *brother* behaves *neuter:*

In my West-Limburgish (Vliermaal)

enne man
enne hond
enne platte keis

e(i)n vrouw
e(i)n kat
e(i)n toffel
e(i)n vinster
e(i)n dauchter,

ee keind, ee kinsje
ee vögelke, ee(n) appelke
ee(n) höske
*ee bruur, mee bruur* (a brother, my brother)

PS. I remember on the 4th class primary at the college of Tongeren (+- age
10 years) we had to use our (Tongerlandish) dialect forms for knowing the
gender in French:
main vinster, ma fenêtre
There were a few traps: main bootter (fem), le beurre (masc.)
We were also thought to reflect on the French form for deciding between ei
and ij in Dutch.
Le train -> de trein andt not de trijn.
I didn't check whether it is always correct. For me it was at least an
incentive to extend my language portefolio with rapidly absorbing a second
Limburgish variant (Tongerlandish). My first was Lonerlandish from
Vliermaal.
Contrary to the remainder of Belgian Limburg, Tongeren did never belong to
the County of Loon, but it was a direct dependency from the principality of
Liège. It was reputedly also germanized later than core-Limburg.

Regards,
Roger

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/a3d61305/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 14:13:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:13:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.09 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUN.2009.071353.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.08 (04) [EN]

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org <mailto:list at marcusbuck.org>>

> The Wenker atlas has four maps about imperative forms: 'geh', 'tu', 'sag'
> and 'bleib'. 'sag' doesn't help us at all, cause the first and second person
> forms have the same stem in both German and Low Saxon ('ich sag' - 'du
> sagst' in German, 'ik segg' - 'du seggst' in Low Saxon). 'geh', 'tu' and
> 'bleib' are a bit more useful. Although they have the same stem in German
> ('ich gehe' - 'du gehst', 'ich tue' - 'du tust', 'ich bleibe' - 'du
> bleibst'), they differ in Low Saxon ('ik gah' - 'du geihst', 'ik do' - 'du
> deist', 'ik bliev' - 'du bliffst'). This difference is present in all Low
> Saxon dialects, so we can draw some conclusions from that. _All_ dialects
> show the imperative forms 'do', 'gah' and 'bliev' (or the respective
> dialectal variants of it) and none show imperative forms like 'dei', 'geih'
> or 'bliff'. So my question above "Is it a general rule, that the imperative
> derives from the root?" can be answered: Yes, without German interference
> the imperative always takes the forms from the infinitive.
>

I made some further investigations in Germanic morphology and found out,
that all what I said was based on false presumptions ;-)
There's no paradigm "imperative follows infinitive/first person". "ich
fahre", "er fährt", imperative "fahre" shows, that German too doesn't apply
a rule like that. Actually the rules depend on the Ablaut classes for
Germanic verbs. Third person and imperative only coincide for the Ablaut
classes III.b. (Old High German: infinitive 'werfan', 1st person 'wirfu'
[1st person followed the same pattern as 2nd/3rd person in Old High German],
imperative 'wirf' = Modern German: infinitive 'werfen', 3rd person 'wirft',
imperative 'wirf'), IV. ('neman', 'nimu', 'nim' = 'nehmen', 'nimmt',
'nimm'), and V. ('geban', 'gibu', 'gib' = 'geben', 'gibt', 'gib').
At least according to <http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudsaksisch>
corresponding forms existed in Old Saxon. The article mentions infinitive
'helpan', 1st person 'hilpu', imperative 'hilp' [Ablaut class III.b.]).
Old Saxon short 'i' was sound-shifted to short 'e' in open syllables and in
front of 'r' and 'l' later, so 'nimu', 'giƀu', 'wirpu', and 'hilpu' would
all coincide with the infinitive after that sound shift. The 2nd and 3rd
persons were formed with an 'i' in it (e.g. 'hilpis', 'hilpid') and where
thus subject to Umlaut. So the 'i'->'e' sound shift didn't affect them and
they stay different until today. Imperative forms 'wirp' and 'hilp' would
have been subject to the 'i'->'e' sound shift too. But in closed syllables
'nim' and 'giƀ' would lead to 'nimm' and 'giff'. They would only lead to
'nehm' and 'geev' if the syllables would have been open. It's not
impossible, that besides 'nim' and 'giƀ' based on dialect (most of our
knowledge of Old Saxon is based on documents from the southern periphery and
we know few about the northern dialects) there where different forms (e.g.
'nima' and 'giƀa'), that would explain the modern forms of 'nehm' and
'geev'. Another explanation would be, that the singular imperative forms
were adjusted to the plural.
And in the end we are where we were right at the start: Most likely it's a
matter of dialect.

Marcus Buck

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090609/25459d4a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 18:22:58 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:22:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.09 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUN.2009.112258.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.08 (07) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Jacqueline wrote: Mark, Ron, Marsha Re Peawadden (again). I all of a sudden
remembered too that Dutch “*watten*” is cotton wool.

English too has 'wadding' meaning the stuffing used to pad out jackets or
quilts.

And we also have the phrase ' to knock the stuffing out of someone' (nasty!)

As well as 'wrapping someone up in cottton wool' ( with the same meaning as
"een kind in de watten leggen”

Interesting that the same images are used across languages. Do langauges
pick up metaphoric image and translate it into their own? Or do similar
images occur naturally in different languages? In the same way as two people
claiming the invention of something tho' living countries apart.

Heather

from Worcester UK

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090609/9d2eae24/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 21:52:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:52:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.09 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUN.2009.145204.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.09 (02) [EN]

Hi Heather: you remarked that the English “wrapping someone up in cotton
wool” conveys the exact same thing as the Dutch “een kind in de watten
leggen” There are hundreds of expressions that Dutch and English have in
common. I have been told that the transfer took place in the harbors along
the River Thames in the 16th and 17th century. It is the ones we did not
exchange that make translating idiomatic Dutch into idiomatic English and
vice versa so devilishly difficult. Enjoy your summer. Jacqueline

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090609/05c14f98/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 23:54:30 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:54:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.09 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUN.2009.165430.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: mehrfache Wortbedeutung

All wedder schriew ick an all' mien Frünn.

Manchmal gibt die plattdeutsche Sprache für den Hochdeutschen auch bei
scheinbar ganz einfachen, leichten Wörtern Rätsel auf, wie es *all*
eines ist. Oder wie verhält es sich mit der leichten Verständlichkeit
folgenden Satzes: *De Plummen un de Backbeeren warden all' all all'? Plummen
*und *Backbeeren *mögen sich nach den Lautgesetzen noch relativ leicht als
'Pflaumen' und 'Backbirnen', also 'gedörrte Birnen' übersetzen lassen. Aber
was soll das dreifache *all, *bei dem das zweite gewöhnlich kürzer als die
beiden andern gesprochen wird: *All' all all'?*
Wir begegnen hier der dreifachen Bedeutung eines Wortes. Das erste
*all' *bedeutet 'alle' wie im Hochdeutschen, das zweite 'schon', es hat
keine Lautentsprechung im Hochdeutschen, und das dritte bedeutet 'zu Ende',
'verbraucht', wie wir es auch in der nord- und mitteldeutschen
Umgangssprache kennen: 'Die Pflaumen sind alle', wir haben keine mehr. Hier
nun noch einmal der Satz:* De Plummen un de Backbeeren warden all' all all'.
*
Oder: *Min Geld is all' all all'. *- (Dat stimmt sogor...* Min Euro is nu
all all' all.)*

Literatur: Jürgen Grundlach *Von Aant bis Zäg'*
**
Beste Grüße.
Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090609/2557986a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 10 17:35:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:35:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.10 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUN.2009.103522.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 10 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (06) [EN]

Hello Diederik,

I haven't noticed this trend of equalizing the neutre forms to the feminine
declension by adding -n in young people's speech..

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (08) [EN]

Hi Diederik,

A couple of days ago I sent you a mail pertaining to the inversed verbal
forms 2nd person. One part went like this:

"I did take exception at your claim (based on Weijnen's conviction that "the
far south-east of Vlaams-Brabant does not have the -de ending in the
2ndperson and
I ". This is pertinently incorrect as I know firsthand. I was born and
raised in Tienen, but my mother originated from Melkwezer, a small village
in the exact centre of  'Getelands', which is spoken in a region somewhat
west of the river Grote Gete to the  Kleine Gete (Diest is not in this
region). I know the language of this region. So I spoke Tienslearnt my
mother's dialect. You can take my word for it  when I say that ' contrary to
what Weijnen claims, the enclitic -de is used in all of this Getelands . In
all of Getelands but not in Tienen and Hoegaarden (and perhaps in a few
adjacent villages of Tienen like Kumtich an Hakendover. For decades I
haven't lived in Tienen, but when I, rarely,   meet old friends from Tienen
I speak Tiens.With relatives from Melkwezer, whom I see more often, I speak
their dialect. So in these circumstances I use the enclitic -de myself. "

I'm sorry to say this description of the situation was not quite correct and
not complete. I was a bit distracted by what you pointed out on thesituation
in Brabantish. Let me put things right. Getelands is a very special case.
It's a transitional area between Barantish and Limburgish in which western
(Brabantish) and eastern elements vie with one another for supremacy.
Weijnen is partly right when he states that Getelands "does not have
the -deending in the 2
nd person". Indeed, we must distinguish between 2 inversed verbal forms in
Getelands (except in Tienen) :
a. the somewhat emphatic form gade gij, which is actually a mixed form:
'gade' being 2nd person singular combined with 'gij' which is in fact an
historical 2nd person plural pronoun. So there Weijnen got it wrong.
b. the weak form with -er, e.g. doeder 'doe je', /göder/ 'ga je'. This -er
originated from *ir, German ihr, Old High German  ir, which is clearly
plural, and unmistakably an eastern element . In this cas Weijnen hit the
nail.

I'm sorry I got you on the wrong track.

 Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: missingsch

Hallo liebe Freunde!

Fritz Reuter. Ut mine Stromtid. Inspekter *Broesig *kümmt ut de Waterkunst
(Kur) un belihrt Hawermann in Waterangelegenheiten.
Fritz Reuter gelang hier *missingsch *literarisch zu gestalten. (H.Hinz)

Literatur: Jürgen Gundlach *Von Aant bis Zäg'*
*Unkel Broesig*. Der Leser denkt dabei sofort an seine eigentümliche
Sprechweise, an sein *Missingsch, *wie man dieses mit plattdeutschen Lauten
und Wörtern verquickte mangelhafte Hochdeutsch nennt. Über das Wort
*missingsch,
*das übrigens zunächst 'hochdeutsch im Gegensatz zur heimischen Mundart'
bedeutete, ist viel gerätselt worden. Professor Hermann Teuchert, der
langjährige frühere Herausgeber des Mecklenburgischen Wörterbuches, hält es
für erwiesen, daß *mißensch, missensch *'meißnisch' zu Grunde liegt, also
die ostdeutsche Benennung der hochdeutschen Literatursprache, wobei ein
zweites Wort *missingsch *'aus Messing' hineinspielte, welches ein
Mischmetall ist, wie das gesorpchene *Missingsch*  eine Mischsprache.

Kurt Tucholsky. Missingsch und Plattdeutsch.
Missingsch ist das, was herauskommt, wenn ein Plattdeutscher hochdeutsch
sprechen will. Er krabbelt auf der glatt gebohnerten Treppe der deutschen
Grammatik empor und rutscht alle Nase lang wieder in sein geliebtes Platt
zurück.
Aus 'Mecklenburg *Ein Gästebuch*'
Herausgegeben von Ulrich Bentzien Hinstorff Verlag Rostock 1980
Anmerkung: Prof. Dr. Ulrich Bentzien 19.12.1987 verstorben. Die menschliche
Wärme, die in Wort und Schrift von diesem Mann ausging, bleibt allen denen
unvergessen, die ihm begegnet sind.(Wir kannten uns.)

Broesig: "...aber gut is sie doch: der Mensch kriegt en ganzen andern
Glauben.... und hier, Korl (Hagemann) hab ich dir auch ein Wasserbuch
mitgebracht, da kannst du dir's Winterabends in den Wissenschaften mit
belernen."

Von mir die besten Grüße.
Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090610/9313c23e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 10 20:16:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:16:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.10 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUN.2009.131638.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 10 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Dat Läuschen

Liebe Freunde,
wat ick jug nu vertell is kein Märken.

1853 veröffentlichte Fritz Reuter (Selbstverlag in Treptow an der Tollense)
sein Buch unter dem Titel *Läuschen un Riemels.*
Dieses Buch war der Beginn der niederdeutschen Klassik in Mecklenburg.
*Läuschen
*bedeutet so viel wie 'Märchen', 'Erzählung', ,fabelhafte Erzählung'. Reuter
hat seine *Läuschen *gereimt, nicht so John Brinckman, der seiner Erzählung
*Höger up *den Untertitel gibt *Dat Leuschen von den Häkt un den Voß. *Das
Wort ist aber auch außerliterarisch bekannt.
Von einer Frau wurde Richard Wossidlo in Wredenhagen berichtet, *dat se so
schön Läuschen vertellen künn.* Das Wort *Läuschen *ist der Form nach ein
Verkleinerungswort, ein Diminutiv, und es geht zurück auf ein
mittelniederdeutsches  *leise, loise, *welches soviel wie 'geistliches
Lied', 'Kirchengesang', dann überhaupt 'Gesang', auch weltlicher Art,
bedeutete. Die Entwicklung geht also von *loise *über *loiseken *zu *
Läuschen.*
Literatur: Jürgen Gundlach (gekürzt) *Von Aant bis Zäg'*
**
Meine Anmerkung: Niederdeutsche Autoren bevorzugen in ihrer 'Anfängerzeit'
das Läuschen. Das gereimte Läuschen wird wie eine Ballade angelegt. Es wird
in reimender Erzählform eine heitere Geschichte mit Situationskomik, oft zu
langatmig und mit  bedeutungslosen Nebenhandlungen und Klamauk und
Füllwörter zu aufgesetzt, erzählt. Mitunter lebt dieses Läuschen mehr vom
'humpelnden' gewollten Reimzwang als von der poetischen Idee, die in der
Bewegung des Gedichtes liegen muß. Ein Läuschen muß/sollte immer mit einer
(heiteren) Pointe enden, weil es dann eben ein 'Läuschen' ist.  Und
eigentlich sind die meisten Anfänger auf diesem Niveau stehen geblieben, und
das, bei dem Reichtum unserer Sprache.
Gerda Uhthoff,  2.8.1896 - 21.10.1988 Schwerin (sie beobachtete meine
künstlerische Entwicklung) schrieb folgendes Gedicht:

DE PLATTDÜÜTSCH SPRAK

Männig denkt, uns' hochdüütsch Brägen
künn mit Platt sik nich verdrägen,
aewer anners liggt de Saak:
Nix is rieker as uns' Spraak,
un sei bruukt in't heile Läwen
sik vör't Hochdüütsch nich tau gäwen.

Aus "LEIW' PLATTDÜÜTSCH" Niederdeutsche Lyrik der Gegenwart
Herausgegeben vom Stadtarchiv Schwerin durch Hans Heinrich Leopoldi
Schwerin 1964

Nun lauschet Läuschen
und ich verkrieche mich
mit besten Grüßen.

Hanne                                           (PS: mögliche von mir
übersehene Tippfehler verzeihen. Re. Auge z.Z. Katarakt. Man, dis' griese
Vagel kann nich

piepen.)

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090610/707de2cf/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 10 22:02:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:02:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.10 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUN.2009.150220.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 10 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.10 (01) [DE-NDS]

Roger: Ha! now you got me even more confused;-) so you mean there are no -de
endings, but instead you have -der for unaccented, and instead of -degij
just -t gij when more emphasised?
And about fem./neut., maybe not in your parts of Brabant, but it still
surprises me that young speakers of dialect distinguish between say 'gin
vrouw' and 'gi geld', 'e schoë kind' and 'een schoën vrouw'... the masuline
forms with nen, ne schoënen etc seem to stand pretty strong even in
Verkavelingsvlaams, but here around Antwerp and even in de Kempen the neuter
article 'e' seems to be in use only with older speakers anymore. I am one of
the few young who I know still uses this declension system pretty
regularly:-) but of course i am happy to hear it's stillmore alive your
parts!

Diederik

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090610/faeed7dd/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 11 16:12:58 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:12:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.091258.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.10 (03) [EN]

Hello Diederik,

You wrote:" Roger: Ha! now you got me even more confused;-) so you mean
there are no -de endings, but instead you have -der for unaccented, and
instead of -degij just -t gij when more emphasised? "

I' sorry if I got you confused. Allow me to reiterate my statement in a
slightly different form, hoping it will be clearer this way.

we must distinguish between 2 inversed verbal forms in Getelands (except in
Tienen) :
a. the somewhat emphatic form *gade gij*, which is actually a mixed form:
'gade' being 2nd person singular combined with 'gij' which is in fact an
historical 2nd person plural pronoun. So there Weijnen got it wrong.
b. the weak form with -er, e.g. *doeder *'doe je', */göder/ *'ga je'. This
-er originated from *ir, German *ihr*, Old High German  *ir*, which is
clearly plural, and unmistakably an eastern element . In this cas Weijnen
hit the nail.

Gade is the inversed 2nd person form of 'gaan', consisting of the stem of
the verb ga + de. This form is not used as such in Melkwezers and, I guess,
anywhere else in the Geteland. We encounter the forms with -de in the more
emphatic form where it is  followed by the pronoun gij. Another example: komde
gij "kom jij?" As you can see it is a tautologocal construction.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/a96be259/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 11 16:34:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:34:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2009.06.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.093446.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Hi, Lowlanders!

A visitor to our Anniversary site (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
informed me that she can not download the Scottish Gaelic translation (
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/gaidhlig.php), that it always defaults to
the help page. She can not access the MP3 sound files either.

In the meantime I have tried to recreate her problem. I tried various
computers at various places and with various Internet connections, including
using Safari on Macs, since this is what she uses. It's all to no avail.
Everything works just fine at my end.

She and I suspect that her problems has something to do with the firewall at
her institution in Scotland, Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, Colaiste Ghàidhlig na
h-Alba, on the Isle of Skye (An t-Eilean Sgitheanach). I somewhat suspect
that something is not set correctly in her browser (Safari) as well.

Questions:

   - Does any of you have or used to have similar problems?
   - If you used to have such problems, how did you solve them?
   - Can any of you who knows or strongly suspects what needs to be done
   write up brief instructions and/or suggestions? We could post these as a
   part of all our on-line presentations.

The obvious aim is to make our presentations as accessible as possible
anywhere in the world.

Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/d93816a6/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 11 16:38:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:38:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.11 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.093800.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (09) [EN]

Ah, so gadegij vs gader, guess i get it now. And to answer one of your
earlier posts, also here family member words have neuter articles, or
feminine (not sure, cfr. the discussion about merger of neuter and feminine
in younger Antwerpian), een bruur, e vader/een vader? Ou vader, ou bruur, me
vader (m'n vader?), m'n bruur, *never *ne vader, ouwen bruur, m'ne vader.
This is true for all Brabant varieties, not sure how they behave in the rest
of southern Dutch. In Antwerp, with plural possessive pronoun, 'bruur' can
have both, tho: hunnen bruur/hun bruur, onz(en) bruur.
But somehow never onze vader, hunne vader (?)

Diederik

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/ce8c960d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 11 19:55:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:55:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.11 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.125533.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de> Subject: Aussprache Mecklenburg

Liebe Freunde,
hier kann nachgeholfen werden...

Die Frage nach der richtigen Aussprache des Wortes Mecklenburg
bewegt immer wieder die Gemüter. Deshalb soll hier von *Mäkelborg,* so die
plattdeutsche Form, und von *Meklenburg, *so, mit einem langen *e *also, die
richtige hochdeutsche Aussprache, die Rede sein.
An der Bahnstrecke Schwerin - Wismar, kurz vor Wismar, liegt zur linken Hand
Dorf Mecklenburg mit seinem noch heute eindrucksvollen
großen slawischen Burgwall. Das slawische Wort für diese Burg ist nicht mehr
bekannt, die Deutschen nannten sie einfach 'große Burg', welches im
Altniederdeutschen als *Mikilinburg, Mekelenborgh, Meklenborgh* erscheint
und schließlich zu unserer plattdeutschen Form
*Mäkelborg* führte. Die Reihe stellt einen völlig gesetzmäßigen Lautwandel
vom kurzen *i zum ä *dar.
Entsprechend *Meklenborch *lautet die hochdeutsche Aussprache
*Meklenburg. *Bei Namen ist es häufig so, daß die Schreibung für die
Aussprache nicht maßgebend ist. Die irreführende Schreibung mit *ck*
setzte sich im 16. Jahrhundert durch. Damals war es Mode, möglichst viele
Konsonanten in die Wörter zu bringen, man schrieb beispielsweise *laufen *mit
doppeltem *f *und doppeltem *n. *Diese Untugend wurde später wieder
beseitigt, blieb jedoch in Namen vielfach erhalten, so auch trotz mehrfacher
nur zeitweilig erfolgreicher Versuche, das *ck *zu beseitigen, in
Mecklenburg.* Wer also Bescheid weit, de seggt to Mäkelborg, wenn hei
hochdüütsch snackt, Meklenburg. *
Literatur: Jürgen Grundlach *Von Aant bis Zäg'*

Anmerkung: Der Meklenburger legt großen Wert auf diese Bezeichnung, und wer
sie so nennt, hat schon fast den  Meklenburger als Freund gefunden. H. Hinz

Best' Gräuten ut Mäkelborg.

Hanne
eine Meklenburgerin

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/5c2abd94/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 00:04:23 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:04:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.11 (05) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.170423.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Hannelore,

You wrote:

Die Frage nach der richtigen Aussprache des Wortes Mecklenburg
bewegt immer wieder die Gemüter. Deshalb soll hier von *Mäkelborg,* so die
plattdeutsche Form, und von *Meklenburg, *so, mit einem langen *e *also, die
richtige hochdeutsche Aussprache, die Rede sein.
An der Bahnstrecke Schwerin - Wismar, kurz vor Wismar, liegt zur linken Hand
Dorf Mecklenburg mit seinem noch heute eindrucksvollen
großen slawischen Burgwall. Das slawische Wort für diese Burg ist nicht
mehr bekannt, die Deutschen nannten sie einfach 'große Burg', welches im
Altniederdeutschen als *Mikilinburg, Mekelenborgh, Meklenborgh* erscheint
und schließlich zu unserer plattdeutschen Form
*Mäkelborg* führte. Die Reihe stellt einen völlig gesetzmäßigen
Lautwandel vom kurzen *i zum ä *dar.
Entsprechend *Meklenborch *lautet die hochdeutsche Aussprache
*Meklenburg. *Bei Namen ist es häufig so, daß die Schreibung für die
Aussprache nicht maßgebend ist. Die irreführende Schreibung mit *ck*
setzte sich im 16. Jahrhundert durch. Damals war es Mode, möglichst viele
Konsonanten in die Wörter zu bringen, man schrieb beispielsweise *laufen *mit
doppeltem *f *und doppeltem *n. *Diese Untugend wurde später wieder
beseitigt, blieb jedoch in Namen vielfach erhalten, so auch trotz mehrfacher
nur zeitweilig erfolgreicher Versuche, das *ck *zu beseitigen, in
Mecklenburg.* Wer also Bescheid weit, de seggt to Mäkelborg, wenn hei
hochdüütsch snackt, Meklenburg. *
Literatur: Jürgen Grundlach *Von Aant bis Zäg'*
 
Anmerkung: Der Meklenburger legt großen Wert auf diese Bezeichnung, und wer
sie so nennt, hat schon fast den  Meklenburger als Freund gefunden. H.
Hinz


Formally speaking, modern English could have evolved to "Mickle-burgh" or
"Much-borough" for your region. Comparative and superlative of "mickle" are
"more" and "most". Compare Hessian "Michelstadt" and the opposite of
"Mecklenburg": Luxembourg/Lëtzebürg (small town).
Kiliaan attested "Mechelburg" in 1599 for Brabantish, and in Latin it would
sound like "Megaloburgum/Megalopolis" in those days.

Am actually wondering if the -ch- in "Mechelburg" should really be seen as a
High German adaptation. Maybe -k-/-ck- is a case of hypercorrection, dunno.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Luc,

Old Saxon has *mikil* for 'big', 'large', 'great'. I assume it's pronounced
like "mickil". It's the same in Old Low Frankish. Old German has
*mihhil*which would have to become *
*michel* or **mechel*.

The old name (recorded in 995) is indeed *Mikilinburg*. A referred to the
fortress built there. The Middle Saxon name is *Mekelenborch.*

In Lower Saxony, just south of Hamburg, there is a town called Meckelfeld. I
assume this is derived from **Mikilfeld*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/5bcb8974/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 00:12:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:12:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.11 (06) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.171235.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (01) [NDS, EN]

Am 08.06.2009 um 19:07 schrieb Reinhard/Ron:

> Theoretically, we should have forms like *doist and *doit here.
>

Hey, Reinhard, Marcus & al,

jüst sau is dat recht ... un in'n Westfäälsken in't geheyl auk praktisk. Wi
maaket't wual meystig sau, as dat theoretisk mot ;-).

Marcus Book schraif:

> Old Saxon short 'i' was sound-shifted to short 'e' in open syllables and in
> front of 'r' and 'l' later, so 'nimu', 'giƀu', 'wirpu', and 'hilpu' would
> all coincide with the infinitive after that sound shift. The 2nd and 3rd
> persons were formed with an 'i' in it (e.g. 'hilpis', 'hilpid') and where
> thus subject to Umlaut. So the 'i'->'e' sound shift didn't affect them and
> they stay different until today. Imperative forms 'wirp' and 'hilp' would
> have been subject to the 'i'->'e' sound shift too. But in closed syllables
> 'nim' and 'giƀ' would lead to 'nimm' and 'giff'.
>

Jüst sau is dat. Auk düssen afsluutenden befund van Marcus hadden uuse
antkevaars al intuitiv befolget.

Jau un wat de uutgankspunkt was, imperativ "kumm!" of nich, daarto is mi
infallen, dat dat de westfäälske briäkenge »uo« in'n infinitiv "kuomen" en
kort-diphthong is, van aultsassisk »queman > koman > kuman«. Darümme heyt
dat je auk "he kümt" un präterit. "ik k(w)am(m)" (man präsens "ik
kuome/quome"). Darümme haule ik en imperativ-variante "kum(m)!" nich for
alsto fäären van "kuom(m)! < quom(m)!".

Man dat is mehr uut den hallen/hollen buuk spruoken, würkelk weyt ik üäwer
desse gesetmautigheyden na nich noug bescheyd, auk wan ik nu jüst bi der
jaaresdagunge van dem "Verein für niederdeutsche Sprachforschung" wiäsen
bin.

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrüg => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Ja, ja, leyve Jochen. Daar hest d' wul recht.

In 't Middelsassische was 't noch "ik kwam" (ik quam) voer "ik keym", u.s.w.

Dat verklaart den je ook dat huydige "kümt" u.s.w., as du 't al schreevst.

Grötens in 't Huus!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/8ba726bd/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 18:56:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:56:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.115646.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.11 (05) [DE-EN-NDS]

Hi all,

And in Pretoria, opposite the UNISA campus, there is a hill called
Muckleneuk.

(Btw, Tswane is the name of the metropolitan council rather than the name of
the city. A current court case is charging the SABC, the public broadcaster,
for misrepresenting the truth in its news broadcasts.)

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Elsie.

Muckleneuk seems to be pure Scots: *muckle* 'large', *neuk* 1. 'nook', 2.
'projecting point of land'

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/fe497f02/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 18:59:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:59:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.115933.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.11 (06) [NDS]

 Beste Ron,

Du schreyvst:

In 't Middelsassische was 't noch "ik kwam" (ik quam) voer "ik keym", u.s.w.

In the (whole?) area of Eastern Friesland "ick kweym" ("I came") still is in
daily use, and even in our region you might hear it now and then - perhaps
as a result of the historical western, i.e. Frisian and Dutch influence.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/877a0db1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 19:18:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:18:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.121846.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  HanneHinz at t-online.de
Subject: Ein japanischer Reuter-Forscher Professor Dr. phil. Kakuji
               Watanabe

FRITZ REUTER
IST MEIN LEITSTERN
DES LEBENS

KAKUJI WATANABE

Die Beziehungen des Stadtarchivs Schwerin u.a. mit der Reuterforschung und
der Niederdeutschen Literatur weiteten sich im Jahre 1956 bis nach Japan
aus, als Hans Heinrich Leopoldi (Stadtarchivar) den  japanischen
Reuter-Forscher Professor Dr. phil. Kakuji Watanabe, der sich auf einer
Reise in Nordwestdeutschland befand, zu einem Besuch der Reuter-Stätten nach
Mecklenburg einladen konnte.
Leider mußte der japanische Gelehrte damals aus Zeitmangel absagen.
"Ihre Freundlichkeit hat mich so sehr gefreut, daß ich Ihren Brief und Visa
noch bei mir aufbewahre", schrieb Prof. Dr. Watanabe an Leopoldi
noch im Mai 1959.
Und wenige Monate später brachte die Post ein 200 Seiten starkes Buch, auf
dessen Titelseite auf grünem Leinen goldene japanische Schriftzeichen
prangen, die man nicht entziffern kann. "Inführung in't Plattdüütsch" - und
das auf Japanisch für Japaner!
Zum 150. Geburtstag des Dichters hat Prof. Dr. Watanabe das Manuskript einer
Arbeit "Über Fritz Reuters Dichtungen" nach Deutschland geschickt und sein
Einverständnis mit der Herausgabe in der Veröffentlichungsreihe des
Stadtarchives Schwerin erklärt.
Hans O.E. Gronau-Bremen und Hans Heinrich Leopoldi, zwei Briefpartner Prof.
Dr. Watanabes, haben es unternommen, eine "Einführung"  in das Leben und
Schaffen des Gelehrten zu geben.
Ihre mehrjährige Zusammenarbeit stellt auch in diesem Falle wieder unter
Beweis, daß die plattdeutsche Sprache sehr wohl zu einem verbindenden und
vermittelnden Element zwischen den Niederdeutschen aus Ost und West werden
kann. (12. Juli 1960)

Was aber hatte Watanabe zu Fritz Reuter geführt und zur plattdeutschen
Sprache? Lassen wir ihn dazu in unserem Briefwechsel selbst zu Worte kommen:
"... Ich wollte schon als junger Lehrer des Deutschen das Wesen des
deutschen Volkes erfassen. Mir schien es der kürzeste Weg zu sein,
irgendeine Mundart kennenzulernen und die Romane eines volkstümlichen
Dichters durchzulesen. . . Aber was hat mich gerade zu Plattdeutsch geführt?
Gibt es denn irgendeinen Zusammenhang zwischen Plattdeutsch und Japanisch?
Gar nichts, wie das Letztere  mit dem Hochdeutschen in keinem Zusammenhang
steht.
Was mich zur Forschung der niederdeutschen Sprache führte, war keine
sprachliche Beziehung, sondern vielmehr die Persönlichkeit des Dichters
Fritz Reuter, dessen trübes Schicksal und lobenswerte Festigkeit, sich aus
hilfloser Drangsal als Dichter durchzuschlagen, mich zuerst anzog."
Fritz Reuter 1. (Essay) 1954 Universitätszeitschrift
Fritz Reuter 2. (Essay) 1955 Universitätszeitschrift
Über Fritz Reuter (Essay) 1955 Deutsche Literatur
Große Deutsche Grammatik 1956 Sanshusha-Verlag
Inführung in't Plattdüütsch 1959 Daigakushorin-Verlag
Mecklenburgisch - Fritz Reuters Grammatik (noch nicht
veröffentlicht)Sanshusha-Verlag
Fritz Reuters Leben und Werke (1200 Druckseiten) Selbstverlag
Fritz Reuters Dichtungen (etwas 40 Druckseiten)  1960

Literatur: *ÜBER FRITZ REUTERS DICHTUNGEN* *   *(BAND 7)
                   VON PROF: DR: KAKUJI  WATANABE
                   HERAUSGEGEBEN VOM STADTARCHIV SCHWERIN 1960
              HERAUSGEBER: HANS HEINRICH LEOPOLDI  *
                   (11.12.1917 - 7.3.1978)

* Wissenschaftlicher Archivar Direktor des Stadtarchivs

H. H. Leopoldi wollte in einer neuen Folge der Veröffentlichungsreihe auch
mir die Gelegenheit geben, meine (kleinen) Werke an die Öffentlichkeit zu
bringen. - Nach einem in Tapferkeit und Würde getragenem Leiden  entschlief
dieser hoch geachtete Mensch.

Beste Grüße.
Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Personalia

Thanks for this piece of news, Hanne.

For those of you who want to further investigate Kakuji Watanabe's work,
here are the characters of his name: 渡辺格司

Among other things he published an introduction to Low Saxon ("Low German")
in Japanese:

*低ドイツ語入門*
渡辺格司
大学書林 （1985/07 出版）
200p / 22cm / A5判
ISBN： 9784475014755
NDC分類： 849.1
価格 (紀伊國屋書店)：￥4,725 (税込)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle. USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/1affae0e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 19:19:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:19:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.12 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.121946.0700.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.11 (05) [DE-EN-NDS]

Hi all,

And in Pretoria, opposite the UNISA campus, there is a hill called
Muckleneuk.

(Btw, Tswane is the name of the metropolitan council rather than the name
of the city. A current court case is charging the SABC, the public
broadcaster, for misrepresenting the truth in its news broadcasts.)Â

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Elsie.

Muckleneuk seems to be pure Scots: *muckle* 'large', *neuk* 1. 'nook', 2.
'projecting point of land'

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
•

==============================END===================================

* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/d0c9b85f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 21:38:05 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:38:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.12 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.143805.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (02) [EN]

Johnny: but in modern Westlauwer frisian it is kaam/kôm, hmm.
Greetings,
Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hey, Diederik!

Sure, and in Sater Frisian (the only surviving variety of East Frisian) it
is *koom*, in Fering (Föhr North Frisian) it's *kaam*, etc.

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/seeltersk.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/fering.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/frysk-info.php

But you seem to be assuming that *kweym* etc. in Eastern Friesland Low Saxon
is due to a Frisian substratum. It doesn't have to be. Apart from having
Frisian substrata, these Low Saxon varieties tend to be rather "archaic",
conservative within a purely Low Saxon context as well.

After the Saxon and Dutch political takeovers resulted in the loss of local
Frisian language varieties, East Frisians began to cling to their own
varieties of Low Saxon as one expression of their ethnic identity. Their
linguistic and cultural expressions of East Frisian identity aim at
distinguishing them from other speakers of Low Saxon. Linguistically, their
forms of Low Saxon have been serving as substitutes for lost Frisian ones.
But this is not to say that their distinction relies entirely on Frisian
substrata. Being used in Germany, lots of Dutch loanwords play another role,
going back to periods when Eastern Friesland was ruled or otherwise directly
influenced by the Netherlands.

According to my experiences, most East Frisians embrace their Frisian roots,
unlike most Low Saxon speakers of Groningen who live nextdoor to relatively
"powerful" communities of West (Westerlauwer) Frisian speakers from whom
their want to distinguish themselves. I am pretty sure that the average
speaker of East Frisian Low Saxon can not distinguish Low Saxon archaisms
(such as *kweym*) from forms that owe to Frisian substrata. Just as long as
it's different from Low Saxon outside their region! I've been told that the
Low Saxon translations of the Harry Potter series were pretty much rejected
in Eastern Friesland because they were written in a "foreign" dialect.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/868f1d56/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 21:41:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:41:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.12 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.144154.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (01) [EN]

Hi, Elsie, Ron & Co.

*Subject:* LL-L "Grammar"

As Elsie notes:
And in Pretoria, opposite the UNISA campus, there is a hill called
Muckleneuk.

& as Ron responded:
Muckleneuk seems to be pure Scots: *muckle* 'large', *neuk* 1. 'nook', 2.
'projecting point of land'

The namer knew his Scots & the local geography. The Eastrn head of the
southern pass into the central valley of Old Pretoria through
Fonteinedal makes a broad shoulder. Hereon some of the older of the most
recent developments of UNISA's buildings now straddle the same, a big corner
indeed. Well behind it behind it out of line of sight on the brow of the
hill is Klapperkop Fort, built to defend it from invading Khakis out of the
South. Her sister fortification is Schanskop Fort. Neither was ever used. by
the time the British passed it the Republicans had adopted guerilla
strategies. Both forts are now museums. On the other side of the valley
rather smaller, was another such feature named Bailly's Muckleneuk, never
fortified - subsequently suburbified. Scots had a high profile in republican
& pre-British South Africa.

Regards.
Mark

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/20ca361d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 22:03:18 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:03:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (06) [DE]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.150318.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (03) [DE-EN]

Danke Reinhard,

großes Kompliment! Alle japanischen Schriftzeichen stimmen überein mit dem
veröffentlichten Titelblatt (BAND 7, Seite 24) des Watanabe'schen Werkes
"Inführung in't Plattdüütsch". Ich hatte dieses Blatt vorher gescannt, aber
das sehr grobe Raster schlug durch. (Schlechte Papier- und Druckqualität.)
In BAND 7  ist auch Reuters Eikboomlied: plattdeutsch-japanisch (aus
Watanabe: Inführung in't Plattdüütsch) veröffentlicht. (Auch hier leider
schlechte Druckqualität.)

Mien best' Gräuten.
Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/5d09d6d9/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 13 19:07:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:07:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.120735.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.12 (05) [EN]

 And what about the town of Mechel(e)n in Belgium? The same root of the
name...?

Hartlich!

Marlou from Hamburg

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/74daf6b6/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 13 20:32:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:32:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.133224.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.12 (04) [EN]

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (02) [EN]

Johnny: but in modern Westlauwer frisian it is kaam/kôm, hmm.
 Greetings,
Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hey, Diederik!

Sure, and in Sater Frisian (the only surviving variety of East Frisian) it
is *koom*, in Fering (FöhrÂ
North Frisian) it's *kaam*, etc.

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/seeltersk.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/fering.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/frysk-info.php

But you seem to be assuming that *kweym* etc. in Eastern Friesland Low Saxon
is due to a Frisian substratum. It doesn't have to be. Apart from having
Frisian substrata, these Low Saxon varieties tend to be rather "archaic",
conservative within a purely Low Saxon context as well

After the Saxon and Dutch political takeovers resulted in the loss of local
Frisian language varieties, East Frisians began to cling to their own
varieties of Low Saxon as one expression of their ethnic identity. Their
linguistic and cultural expressions of East Frisian identity aim at
distinguishing them from other speakers of Low Saxon. Linguistically, their
forms of Low Saxon have been serving as substitutes for lost Frisian ones.
But this is not to say that their distinction relies entirely on Frisian
substrata. Being used in Germany, lots of Dutch loanwords play another role,
going back to periods when Eastern Friesland was ruled or otherwise directly
influenced by the Netherlands.

According to my experiences, most East Frisians embrace their Frisian roots,
unlike most Low Saxon speakers of Groningen who live nextdoor to relatively
"powerful" communities of West (Westerlauwer) Frisian speakers from whom
their want to distinguish themselves. I am pretty sure that the average
speaker of East Frisian Low Saxon can not distinguish Low Saxon archaisms
(such as *kweym*) from forms that owe to Frisian substrata. Just as long as
it's different from Low Saxon outside their region! I've been told that the
Low Saxon translations of the Harry Potter series were pretty much rejected
in Eastern Friesland because they were written in a "foreign" dialect

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Hoi Diederik, Ron!
Let's not forget that in Old Frisian we do have forms like "quam" and
"quemen" (single and plural). So at the time the East Frisians shifted their
language, the 2- forms were still present, presumably, so they would have
supported the more conservative varieties of Low Saxon.

Regards,

Henno

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.12 (04) [EN]

De Ron dieje schreef:
 >But you seem to be assuming that *kweym* etc. in Eastern Friesland Low
Saxon is due to a Frisian substratum. It doesn't have to be. Apart
>from having Frisian substrata, these Low Saxon varieties tend to be rather
"archaic", conservative within a purely Low Saxon context as well.

I didn't, I was stating the exact opposite... the original post
(Johnny) thought the w in kweym came from Frisian, that's why I posted to
show at least Modern Frisian doesn't have any -w- there so it would be
unlikely to be Frisian influence.

And them being more archaic LS I can understand, like Belgians, when
adapting Standard Dutch, often (unconsciously) use words that are seen as
archaic in the North, and not necessarily because those words occur in our
dialects, but also other words. I suppose people taking over another
prestige language will always be more conservative in it and archaic?

Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ha, die Henno en Diederik!

Thanks for the bit of information, Henno, informative and thought-provoking
as usual, especially when it comes to Frisian.

En ongze Diërik, dieje schreef:

I didn't, I was stating the exact opposite... the original post
(Johnny) thought the w in kweym came from Frisian, that's why I posted to
show at least Modern Frisian doesn't have any -w- there so it would be
unlikely to be Frisian influence.

Aha! That's where the misunderstanding arose! We had pretty much the same
thought but somehow read Jonny's lines somewhat differently:

In the (whole?) area of Eastern Friesland "ick kweym" ("I came") still is in
daily use, and even in our region you might hear it now and then - perhaps
as a result of the historical western, i.e. Frisian and Dutch influence.

I took his "perhaps ..." phrase as a vague added thought rather than as a
real opinion and as his actual point.

Anyway, sorry that I misunderstood you, and happy that we actually agree.

This settled (?), I'd like to shift to a related topic, related also to the
issue of northern vs southern Dutch.

Do not also the Dutch dialects of historical Holland (i.e. roughly today's
Netherlands provinces of Northern and Southern Holland) have considerable
old Frisian substrata? Apparently, Frisian used to be spoken in a broad band
pretty much all the way along the coast of today's Netherlands, with older,
and perhaps less concentrated presence along what are now the southern parts
of the Netherlands and Northern Belgium. My rough assumption is that Frisian
language density used to be stronger in the north, used to be mostly
coastal, and that consequently Frisian substrata in coastal Dutch are
stronger in the north.

If this assumption is justified, I wonder if some differences between
northern and southern Dutch varieties owe to degrees of intensity of Frisian
substrata, or in many cases the presence and absence of them. This is aside
from the issue of conservatism which is clearly stronger in southern
varieties. (Or maybe I should rather say that the influential coastal
northern varieties are very innovative.)

Since Frisian was and is essentially a coastal language (though there used
to be Frisian communities that lived a good way away from the coast), I
wonder if we should look at differences between coastal and inland Dutch
varieties as well, "inland" here meaning "outside the sphere of direct
Frisian influence". This would exclude the entire north of the Netherlands,
since most Low Frankish and Low Saxon varieties there have been under some
degree of Frisian influence or other.

One difference that springs to mind right away is what I personally term
"Rhenish" features of the far-eastern Low Frankish varieties. These seem to
be areal rather than genealogical features. First and foremost among these
(at least in *my* mind) is velarization of /n/ (as in "thi*n*" and "si*nn*er")
to /ŋ/ ([N], as in "thi*ng*" and "si*ng*er").

This feature is predominant in Ripuarian, which is Central Frankish, thus
outside the Low Frankish sphere:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ripoaresch-info.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ripoaresch-koelsch.php

For instance, in Cologne Ripuarian, **din* 'the (masc. acc.)' is *ding*, *
*sinem* 'his (dat.)' is *singem*, and **schände *(> **schänne*)* *is *
schänge* 'to scold'.

The closer we get to the Rhine region, the more frequent this feature seems
to be in Low Frankish, thus in the Lowlands area, as well. You find it in
some Brabantish, Limburgish and Cleves Low Frankish varieties, for instance.

*Brabantish:*
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-intro.php

Present:
Antwerp: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-antwerpen.php
e.g. *monster* > *mongster, ons *> *ongs*
*
*Apparently absent:
Merchtem: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants.php
Rosmalen: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-rosmalen.php

*Limburgish:
*http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-info.php

Present:
Vliermal: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-vliermaal.php
e.g. **kinder* > *kénger*

Apparently absent:
Brunssum: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-brunssum.php
Bilzen: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-bilzen.php

*Cleves Low Frankish:
*http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/kleverlands-info.php

Present:
Solingen: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-berjisch.php
e.g. **schänden *> *schängen*

Apparently absent:
Venlo: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-venlo.php
Mülheim: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-mulheim.php
Cuijk: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/kuuks.php
Liemers: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/liemers.php

I am not saying that this is a major distinguishing feature in Low Frankish.
What I am trying to propose is that it is *one* distinguishing areal feature
within eastern varieties of Low Frankish.

Any comments?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/bfa6e353/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 13 21:03:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:03:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.140324.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (01) [EN]

 *> From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
> Subject: **LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.12 (05) [EN]
> And what about the town of Mechel(e)n in Belgium? The same root of the
name...?*

Carnoy gives for *Mechelen* (Fr. Malines; 1008 Machlines):
Old Dutch: *machel, mahl --> *machlîn*: place of reunion, tribunal

In the lemma for *Male* (in West Flanders) however he starts from::
Got *mathl*, alt HD *mahal*, cf. in modern Dutch *gemaal*, *ontmoeten*, Engl
*to meet*
leading to two forms in toponomy:
**mathla* --> *Malle* (cf. the trapppist beer of West-Malle)
**madhla* --> *mahal* --> -*maal, Male* (I was born in Vlier*maal*)
The meaning is also here: place of reunion, tribunal

Regards,
Roger

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/9305ffdc/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 13 21:04:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:04:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.140447.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.11 (03) [EN]

Hoi Diederik,

In Getelands broer , moeder, vader en zuster are neutal when preceded by a
possessive pronoun. Pa en moe don't follow this rule. They are respectively
masculine and feminine.

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/7a0c8a8a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 01:10:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:10:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.181000.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (03) [EN]

Thank you, Roger! The name seemed so like Mecklen(burg), but the explanation
is quite different! "Mahl" = "reunion" sounds plausible. But plausibility is
for amateurs, hm? I confess it lets me down a little. It seems quite
impossible to conclude by analogy. You have to know the name's history. I
thought I had guessed something, and I was all wrong.

Is this "Mahl" = "meal" (that is a reunion too, people meet there) or is it
the "Mal" = "spot", "special place", e.g. in "Denkmal"? "Mahl" has to do
with mahlen, Mehl etc., I suppose? There is no lost t in Mahl?

Meek greetings from

Marlou

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I had the same question (about German *Mahl*) when I read your explanation,
Roger. I just didn't go digging because I didn't have the time and wanted to
leave it to others.

On an unrelated (?) point, I am assuming that Old Saxon *mikil*, Scots *
muckle*, etc. are related to Sanskrit *maha* (मह) 'great' , as in the epic *
Mahābh**ārata* (महाभारत) and in *mah**ā**laya* (महालय) 'great
building/dwelling' as found in Hindustani and Persian *Tāj Mah**āl* (ताज
महल, تاج محل).

The Indo-European forms include *meĝ(h)-*, hence Greek *megá-* (μεγά-), *
megalos* (μεγάλος) 'great' (as in "megalomaniac") and Latin *mag-n-* 'great'
(e.g. *magnus*, "magnificent", "magnanimous" etc.).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/551762ff/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 01:12:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:12:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.181206.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: KarlRein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (04) [EN]

Please give us some sentences as examples.

Thanks.

Karl Reinhardt

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.11 (03) [EN]

Hoi Diederik,

In Getelands broer , moeder, vader en zuster are neutal when preceded by a
possessive pronoun. Pa en moe don't follow this rule. They are respectively
masculine and feminine.

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/76c70cfb/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 03:15:39 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:15:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.201539.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (05) [EN]

Re “Mahl” and Sanskrit Maha: Aha Marlou, hence German Mahlzeit, Dutch
maaltijd. The question then becomes if ones “gemaal” is the one that eats at
your table? The Mall is certainly an important place for American shoppers,
but becomes (again)  a meeting place for teenagers.

Also Sanskrit Maha: Is that also the root of the Himalayas Ron?

Jacqueline

Seattle WA.
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Jacqueline!

Also Sanskrit Maha: Is that also the root of the Himalayas Ron?

You may be onto something there, o cleverest of neighbors.

"Himalaya" comes from Sanskrit *Him**ālaya* (हिमालय) which is usually
translated as "Abode of Snow".

It may well be a contracted form of *hima* ((हिम) 'snow' and
*mah**ā**laya*(महालय) 'great abode' .
If so, It may be best translated as "Great Abode of Snow".

This Sanskrit name is used in pretty much all of the descended Prakrit
languages, e.g. Hindi, Marathi, Nepali, Newari *Himālay *(हिमालय),
Punjabi *Himālay
*(ਹਿਮਾਲਯ), Gujarati *Himālay *(હિમાલય), Bengali *Himaloy *(হিমালয়). And it
was imported into non-Indo-European languages of Asia as well, even into
Tibetan * *as *Himalaya* (ཧིམལཡ་).

But in Nepali the word *himal* (हिमल < **himala*) alone means 'snow-covered
mountain'. Many significant Himalayan mountains have this in their names.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/3c4af1e0/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 03:20:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:20:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.202006.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

*
**Old Saxon has mikil for 'big', 'large', 'great'. I assume it's pronounced
like "mickil". It's the same in Old Low Frankish. Old German has mihhil
which would have to become *michel or *mechel. **
**
**The old name (recorded in 995) is indeed Mikilinburg. A referred to the
fortress built there. The Middle Saxon name is Mekelenborch.**
**
**In Lower Saxony, just south of Hamburg, there is a town called Meckelfeld.
I assume this is derived from *Mikilfeld.*


Phonetically speaking, Mecklenburg should indeed have -k- (and not -ch-).
"Mecklenbeck", southwest of Münster, may also contain this word mikil...even
though I guess the "Mecklenbach" may not be a very large stream.

What puzzled me though, is that Kiliaan cited "Mechelburg" for the region
and "Mechelburgher" for an inhabitant. First I thought, well maybe he just
copied the High German pronunciation, but when I checked other cities in the
North I saw that he consistently avoided High German: Hamborgh, Danswijck,
Sleswijck, Maeghdenborgh/Meydenborgh... Moreover it seems that older Danish
and Swedish were also using the term "Mechelburg":

http://www.skjaldesang.ibit.dk/estrato.php?Page=vissang&sid=578
http://www.skjaldesang.dk/estrato.php?Page=vissang&sid=557
http://www.statensarkiv.se/default.aspx?id=9686&refid=1170

Mid 18th century, Johann Christoph Gottsched wrote:

*Ich schreibe mit Bedacht Mechelburg; denn so soll dieß Wort geschrieben
werden, um seinen Ursprung anzuzeigen. Es kömmt von **Michel**, welches
vormals groß hieß, und mit dem griechischen μεγαλος übereinstimmte, u. von
Burg: Michelburg, oder Mechelburg heißt also die **große Burg**: so wie
hingegen Luxenburg, oder Lützelburg, wie es die Alten schrieben, **die
kleine Burg hieß**. Damit stimmet denn auch die Benennung MEGALOPOLIS sehr
wohl überein. Und vieleicht kömmt selbst die Benennung, ein**Deutscher
Michel**, bloß daher, daß die alten Deutschen mehrentheils große ansehnliche
Leute gewesen. Denn der hebräische Namen Michael schicket sich hier gar
nicht her. Man will mir die Rechtschreibung von Mechelburg abdisputiren.
Allein, ich habe ein altes Manuscript deutscher Heldenlieder von 1400 und
etlichen 80: darinn steht beym mecklenburgischen Wapen: **Balthasar von Gotz
Gnaden Herczog czu Mechelwurgk**. Wer beym k bleiben will, kann es indessen
thun. Ich zeige nur den Sinn und Ursprung. Daß aber Rostock, wie man mich
bereden will, von **Roß**, ein Pferd, und **tock**, ein Zug, d.i. einem
Aufzuge zu Pferde herkomme, werde ich schwerlich glauben. Ich weis längst,
daß dieß Wort wendischer Abkunft ist; so gut, als Lübeck und Leipzig selbst.
Wären Ritterspiele da gehalten worden: so müßte es vorher schon eine Stadt
gewesen seyn, die darum ihren Namen nicht geändert haben würde. Warum hieße
es nicht gar **Rasttag**?*


Sure, one can hardly refrain from laughing when he tries to explain the name
"Michael", but he too mentions "Mechelwurgk".

Regarding Mechelen, city in Belgium, De Vries had his doubts, either the
name derives from *magalinum (~ Sanskrit "maha") or from "mahla" (tribunal).
He seemed to prefer the latter explanation, which is cognate with German
"Gemahl" and "vermählen".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/21c7d143/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 04:19:19 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:19:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.211919.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear friends,

I'm afraid the etymological *bogle *has not yet had his fill of haunting the
Lowlands-L premises this fine Saturday night.

I am wondering about English "to rush" as a likely relative of Low Saxon
"rusch-" ([rʊʃ]) 'to rush (as of the sound of water, leaves or paper)', 'to
move in a way as to make such a sound', and 'to move forward with much
energy' (i.e. 'to rush').

I am pretty sure they *are* connected, also that they are connected with
German *rauschen* which these days is mostly confined to the idea of making
the sound of fast-running water or air.

Furthermore, Low Saxon has the diminutive-frequentive (-l-) form
*ruschel-*'to rustle', especially in reference to leaves and paper,
for instance
(equivalent to German *raschel-*).

Most interesting to me is the Low Saxon adjective/adverb *rusch* ([rʊʃ]) ~ *
ruusch* ([ruːʃ]) meaning things like 'energetic(ally)', 'casual(ly)' and
also 'crisp(ly)'. (This is one of the Low Saxon words that tend to fall
through the cracks because they have no German cognates.) It is difficult to
explain its usage. (See below.)

Connected with this is an adjectival phrase of the once very popular
alliterative sort: *risch un rusch*. *Risch*, another "un-German" word,
means things like 'fast', 'agile' and also 'slim' or 'slender'. So *risch un
rusch* denotes something with a lot of energy; e.g. *Risch un rusch nehmen
se jüm ähr Sch**üffeln, Forken un Blüßen un lepen to de Vullmacht **ähr Huus
an* ("With much energy and zeal they took their shovels, pitch forks and
torches and ran toward the squires house.").

I would be interested in reactions and expansions of this thread.

Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/74d40be0/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 06:42:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:42:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (09) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.234222.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (05) [EN]

 *> From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (03) [EN]
* *> ...  The name seemed so like Mecklen(burg), but the explanation
is quite different!*

I would like to add that there are several (former) municipalities with a
name "*Mechelen*" or alike in the Benelux.
There may have different etymologies,
there also may be occurences for smaller sites (parts of former
municpalities)

A - For Belgium:
In the "Gemeenten van België", Ed. Gemeentekrediet, 1980, 4 vol.:
 5 (former) municipalities with a Mechelen-like name are listed.
Unfortunately, the old forms are not always listed.

1 - *Machelen* (NE of Brussels, has absorbed Diegem)

2 - *Machelen* (now absorbed in "Zulte", East Flanders)
*Mahlinum* (821-823), *Mageleno* (847), *Maglina* (966)

3  *Mechelen* (prov. Antwerp)
was an enclave of the pricipality of Liege, that got somehow independent
Important postion in the Burgondian Netherlands:
1473 installation of the Parliament of Mechelen
15th century, after the death of Charles, the court of Margareth of York
moved to Mechelen
1504 installation of the "Grote Raad" (High Court) of the Netherlands
1530 after the death of Margareth of Austria, the government relocated to
Brussels
1559 capital of the new archbishopric

4 - *Mechelen-aan-de-Maas* (prov. Limburg, now part of "Maasmechelen", a new
name)

5 - *Mechelen-Bovelingen* (prov. Limburg, now part of "Heers")
old names in Dutch: *Mecheln*, *Quaedmechelen*
in French: *Ma(r)lines*

B - On the web:

1 - http://www.machelen.be/
2 - http://www.zulte.be/WWW/gemeente/g3/35.html
3 - http://www.mechelen.be/
4 - http://www.maasmechelen.be/
5 - http://www.heers.be

C - For the Netherlands (Van Berkel, Nederlandse plaatsnamen);

6 - *Mechelen *(Limburg, now part of "Gulpen-Wittem"):
1133 *de Mechlum;* 14th c. *Mechlen,* supposed etym. **magalunas*

7 - *Megchelen* (Gelderland, now part of"Oude IJsselstreek")
1138, *Mehla*, 1218 *in silva Mehtlo*, 1218 *Mehtlo, Mechtlo*, 1357-1365 *
Meggele*

D - On the web:

6 - http://www.gulpen-wittem.nl
7 - http://www.oude-ijsselstreek.nl/

Regards,
Roger

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/cadb83b1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 19:27:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:27:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.122732.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (07) [EN]

 To Ron Re Sanskrit Maha: Ach mein Himmel!. Jacqueline

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [EN]

Hello Reinhard,

my parents, especially my mother (Elbmärscher Platt) often used the
adjective "resch" to characterize a brusque, energetic, short-spoken person:
"Sie hat so eine resche Art", "Sie war schon in ihrer Jugend eine spröde,
resche Person, aber bildschön...". It was mostly used for women (perhaps men
were welcome to be resch, but women weren't :-)), but not always in a
derogatory sense, sometimes with a certain appreciation. It seems this word
is a close relative of "risch", or maybe just another way of spelling.

Hartlich!

Marlou

------------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (07) [EN]

First off, this same /mahā-/ also finds its place in महाराष्ट्र
 MahārāSTra 'Maharashtra' -- literally 'greaｔ country', the Indian
state of which Mumbai (aka Bombay) is the capital.

Second, a few additions/modifications to the dicussion of the secodn
element of हिमालय /Himālaya/, meaning 'place (or if you wish to sound
high-falutin' 'abode') of snow'.

The हिम- /him-/ as noted is the Sanskritic root /him-/ 'snow' and the
/-ālaya/ is a common Sanskritic lexical suffix meaning 'place of'. In
addtion to महालय /mahālaya/ 'great place' and महाभारत /Mahābhārat/
literally 'Great Bharat (a word which now translates as India)' which
R/R cites, are also (to name but a few): पुस्तकालय /pustakālaya/
'library' from पुस्तक /pustak/ 'book'; भोजनालय /bhojanālaya/
'cafeteria' from भोजन /bhojan/ 'dinner'; कार्यालय /kāryālaya/ 'office'
from कार्य /kārya/ 'work'... and hundreds of others in common
circulation.

As for Nepali हिमल /himal/ which R/R also cites, this is also a
Sanskritism (the Nepali for 'snow' is हिउँ /hiuM/), and is an
adjectival form, literally 'snowy'. My favorite example of the
adjectival suffix /-al/ (whose long grade /-āl/ MAY be found in
/-ālaya/??) is taken from a brand of icecream popular when I lived in
Nepal (V.S. 2035-2036); despensing with etymologies, the brand was
Shital ... reanalyzed in those less-hygenic times as an appropriate
English brand-name having a space after the /t/ and an additional /l/
;-)

mike || U C > || мика  || माईक || マイク || ሚካኤል
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          (( Michael W Morgan, PhD ))
    to be Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Ethiopian Sign Language & Deaf Studies Program
      Addis Ababa University (Ethiopia)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
וואָס לענגער אַ בלינדער לעבט, אַלץ מער זעט ער.
The longer a blind man lives, the more he sees.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, you "guys"!

Jacqueline, was that *Himmel* or *himal*?

Marlou, I have no doubt that *resch* is a dialectical variant of *risch*. In
certain words, mid and high vowels alternate according to dialect, for
instance in *bit ~ bet* 'until', 'up to', *gissen ~ gessen* 'to guess', *Ingel
~ Engel* 'angel', and *Ingelsch ~ Engelsch* 'English'.

(Is this a very old thing? Consider the English spelling and pronunciation
of "English", "England" etc.)

While maybe not perfect, "brusque" seems like a good equivalent of *risch ~
resch*, I feel.

Which leads me to a Low Saxon adjective-adverb with a similar meaning:
(French *force* > Late Middle Saxon *forsche* >) *foorsch ~ fuursch* which
is one of many Low Saxon words imported into German (where it is *forsch*).

Another such Low Saxon adjective-adverb is *basch*. I don't yet know its
etymology. From French *bas* 'low' perhaps?

As you can tell, such Low Saxon words tend to have *-sch* at the end. I
assume it is the equivalent of German *-isch and English *"-ish", originally
denoting something like "in the manner of ..." or just "like ..." or
"...-like", thus probably related to *-esc-* in Romance languages (such as
Italian *tedesco* 'German', and in English words of French provenance such
as "grotesque" and "picturesque"). In the case of *foorsch* (see above) I
assume that it came to be reanalyzed as a *-sch* word.

Other such examples:

*däänsch* 'Danish'
*franksch* 'Frankish'
*fransch *'French'
*poolsch *'Polish'
*hollandsch* 'Dutch'
*fiensch ~ füünsch* 'angry' (from *Fiend* 'fiend', 'enemy')
(*küürsch *>) *krüüsch *'picky (with food)' (from *Küür *'choice')

The old *-i-* surfaces after /s/, as in *sassisch* 'Saxon', sometimes not,
as in *freesch* (not **fresisch*) 'Frisian' and *chineesch* (not *
*chinesisch*) 'Chinese'.

In English, adjectival-adverbial "-ish" is used similarly, not only as in
"Danish", "Polish" etc., but also in words such as "peckish", "sluggish",
"selfish", "childish", "mannish", 'devilish" and "fiendish". Informally, it
remains an impromptu active lexical morpheme, as in "noonish" (around noon),
"It'll be ninish by the time he's done", "Don't I look fattish in this
dress?", "Your intro is a bit on the longish side."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/87202010/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 19:30:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:30:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.123035.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Wortneuschöpfung

Liebe Freunde,

über Wortneuschöpfung mache ich mir so meine Gedanken.
Aber zuvor wieder ein Beitrag von Dr. phil. Jürgen Gundlach
*Von Aant bis Zäg'*:

Hulbessen

Im Jahre 1936 notierte Richard Wossidlo in Bützow eine lustige
Wortneuschöpfung, als eine Hausfrau von ihrem *Hulbessen* sprach, mit dem
sie den 'Staubsauger' meinte. Das Wort wurde ins Mecklenburgische Wörterbuch
aufgenommen und später oft zitiert, es hat auch wohl bis heute hin eine
gewisse Popularität erlangt. *Hulbessen* ist eine humoristische Bildung, wie
beispielsweise *Drahtäsel *und *Schosseespenn *für das 'Fahrrad'.
Die wissenschaftlich-technische Revolution sowie die gesellschaftliche und
politische Entwicklung verlangen der Sprache ständig eine Fülle von
Neuprägungen ab. Diese geschehen in den Fachsprachen und gehen in die Hoch-
und auch Umgangssprache über. Wie aber verhalten sich Mundart und
Mundartsprecher angesichts solcher Neuprägungen? Wie geschieht die
volkssprachliche Bewältigung der neuen Gegebenheiten?
Drei Wörter der höchsten Stufe, der sogenannten Eigenbewältigung, haben wir
eben kennengelernt, dazu gehört auch neuerdings *dat Kiekschapp *für den
'Fernsehapparat'. *Hulbessen, Kiekschapp, Drahtäsel *und
*Schosseespenn*werden als Gelegenheitsbildungen kaum allgemeine
Verbindlichkeit erlangen,
wie es einmal bei der *Rummel*, der 'Kornreinigungsmaschine', und dem *
Döschkasten,*  der
'Dreschmaschine', der Fall gewesen ist.
Häufiger als durch Eigenbewältigung behilft sich die Mundart durch sagen wir
einmal Verplattdeutschung des hochdeutschen Wortes. Die
'Eisenbahn' wird zur *Isenbahn,* die 'Fahrkarte' zur *Fohrkoort,* das
'Streichholz' zum *Strikholt.*
Hier befinden wir uns an der Grenze zur dritten, vom Leistungsvermögen der
Sprache her schwächsten Möglichkeit, die darin besteht, das neue
hochdeutsche Wort oder den Fachterminus unverändert in die Mundart zu
übernehmen: *Bi 'n Konsum is tau, dei hebben Warenannahme; de Dokter hett
Sitzung bi de Ärzteberatungskommision.*
Ob nun einer seinen *Staubsauger* zur Reparatur bringt oder seinen
*Stoffsuger *oder seinen *Hulbessen, dat kann hei hollen as 'n Dackdecker. *Die
Mundart hat da keinen Anspruch mehr auf Regelverbindlichkeit. (Zitatende)

Anmerkung: Streichholz : Rietsticken s. Wossidlo/Teuchert
Eintrittskarte, Fahrkarte: Billet frz. : Balgett RoRibn, Balljett Reut.,
Wossidlo/Teuchert.
Heute sprechen wir von Regional- und Minderheitensprachen in
Deutschland (also nicht von 'Mundart').
Die Verplattdeutschung haben wir z.T. unbewußt angenommen.
Der dritte Weg stimmt mich auch traurig. Fremdwörter sollte man übernehmen.
Aber das Beispiel: *Bi 'n Konsum ...usw., *hürt sick je mihr nah Mischmasch
an.
Wie denkt ihr über diesen Trend. Ich sehe darin keine sprachliche
Bereicherung.
Ich denke an Klaus Groth, wie heißt es da noch...
Min Modersprak, wa klingst du schön!
Wa büst du mi vertrut!

Hinz: Ward nu min Hart as Stahl un Steen,
          geiht uns de Puust nu ut...

Noch etwas: Ich besitze
l.Band  KLAUS GROTH QUICKBORNLIEDER (aber mit Vertonungen
für Gesang und Klavier. Wunderschööön!)

Makt juug mal 'n Kopp.

Hartlich Gräuten.
Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/454e2883/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 21:17:03 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:17:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.141703.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (02) [DE-NDS]

Hi all,

Liebe Hannelore, darf ich dabeihinfügen, dass wir ’Dreschmaschine’ auf
Afrikaans ’dorsmasjien’ nennen, obwohl das Gerät natürlich nichts mit
’durst’ zu tun hat.

Gruss,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (02) [DE-NDS]

Liebe Hanne,

das Kapitel, das Du ansprichst, ist ganz wichtig. Es ist wichtig, dass wir
uns klar sind, was wir der plattdeutschen Sprache abfordern *müssen* und was
wir ihr nicht abfordern *dürfen*, um ihr nicht die Luft abzuschnüren.

Wörter wie "Huulbessen" sind eine echte Bereicherung, und Platt ist klasse
darin, Abstraktes durch Griffiges zu ersetzen; aber man darf es nicht darauf
festnageln. Die Suche nach einem pd. Äquivalent für "Computer" hat schon
mehrere erfreuliche Vorschläge gezeitigt, aber dennoch finde ich es völlig
legitim, auch in pd. Texten Computer "Computer" zu nennen. Vorsicht: Das
Finden von "anschaulichen", "griffigen" Äquivalenten kann die Sprache auch
in die Humor-Ecke zurückdrängen, aus der sie sich sowieso nur zaghaft
raustraut!

Es gibt Leute, die von Plattdeutsch verlangen, für alles ein """eigenes"""
Wort zu haben, sonst sei es "nicht echt". Das geht so weit, dass man als
Plattdeutschsprecherin nicht "Auto" sagen darf, denn das ist ja nicht Platt.
Amüsanterweise halten diese Menschen das Wort "Auto" für Hochdeutsch. Was es
natürlich nicht ist, "Automobil" ist griechisch-lateinisch. So empfinden die
das aber gar nicht, und wir auch nicht, wenn wir ehrlich sind; denn das
Automobil wurde schließlich in Deutschland erfunden und ist etwas so richtig
Deutsches :-) Da wird ein Grundmuster erkennbar: Was Hochdeutsch darf, darf
Platt noch lange nicht. Hochdeutsch darf Fremdwörter aufnehmen, sich zu
eigen machen, aber in Platt wird das kritisiert, "das passt nicht", "das
wirkt doch unecht", "das ist doch kein Platt mehr". Vor einiger Zeit gab es
eine Literatin -- ihren Namen habe ich erfolgreich verdrängt --, die
Gedichte von Erich Fried ins Pd. übersetzt hatte. "Die Entmystifizierung des
Sex" hieß das Original, "Mit'n Holthamer op dat söte Geheimnis" die
Übersetzung des Titels, und der Rest war so, wie der Titel verhieß. Nicht
nur war die Übersetzungsarbeit ziemlich eindimensional und tapsig, die
Autorin war auch in die Falle gegangen, möglichst alles "echt plattdeutsch"
sagen zu wollen. Immerhin hat die Autorin Respekt für ihren Mut
verdient, denn Versuuch macht kluuch, man konnte was draus lernen. Aber
was?! Diesen gefloppten Versuch verriss eine Zeitung hier hämetriefend unter
dem Motto "Man kann eben solche Dinge nicht auf Plattdeutsch sagen, dafür
taugt die Sprache nicht!" !!!!!!!!! Wut!!!!!!!!!!!! Genau das kann man
*nicht* daraus lernen. Ebenso könnte man Frieds Originale nehmen und sagen
"Da seht ihrs, man kann sowas nicht auf Hochdeutsch sagen." Denn ist
vielleicht "Entmystifizierung" und "Sex" Hochdeutsch? Naaa...? Ich seh
schon, viele werden sagen: Ja, Hochdeutsch ist das, aber Plattdeutsch ist
das niemals. Ist das nicht ungerecht? Ich schrieb damals einen erbosten
Brief an die Zeitung -- natürlich auf Platt -- des Inhalts, ob sie erwarten,
dass etwas anderes rauskomme, wenn Plattdeutsch wie ein Oldtimer gegen
Hochdeutsch als getunten Ferrari antreten soll? Der Brief wurde als
hochkomisch empfunden und mit Genuss als original plattdeutscher
Humor veröffentlicht.

Andere Puristen gibt es, die nicht mal das Erfinden neuer, plattdeutscher
Wörter zulassen wollen. Wieso muss man auf Pd. von Autos reden? Zur
Hoch-Zeit des Plattdeutschen gab es keine Autos! Für solche Leute ist Platt
natürlich eine mausetote Sprache, nicht mal mangels Sprechern, sondern durch
ihre erstickenden Prinzipien.

Was ich wichtig finde: Platt muss seinen Charakter behalten. Dazu gehören
auch seine spezifischen Talente, etwa die des Anschaulichmachens. Aber nicht
darauf festnageln!!! Platt muss neue Wörter und auch Fremdwörter aufnehmen
dürfen, es muss auch über Abstraktes reden (lernen), über Philosophie und
Politik und auch Bürokratie. Das ist dringend, ja überfällig. Saftige
Neuschöpfungen: ja, aber nur, wenn man sie auch ernst nehmen kann! Hein
Thies befasst sich hier http://www.fehrsgill-sass.marless.de/ mit dem
Sammeln solcher neuer Wörter und freut sich über Mail. Dass er alles auf die
Sass-Schreibweise anpasst, ist eben so. Gibt Schlimmeres. Leben und leben
lassen!

Priorität 1: Platt reden.
Priorität 2: Hochdeutschizismen vermeiden. Wenn's nicht anders geht, Wort
anständig "plätten". Dann weiterreden!!!
Priorität 3: Gute, zeitlose, nachhaltig verwendbare Neuschöpfungen.

Ik knuddel di!

Marlou

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/708e0ae1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 03:22:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:22:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.14 (04) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.202228.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Leve Lüüd',
Nu heff ik mien Klaus-Groth-Sieten up Schick bröcht un ähr ook 'n bäten wat
upfladuust. Kiekt jo ähr maal an!

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/

Folks,
I've renovated and redecorated my Klaus Groth presentation. Please take a
look!

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/02b33ceb/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 05:39:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:39:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (05) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.223942.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (01) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Another such Low Saxon adjective-adverb is /basch/. I don't yet know its
> etymology. From French /bas/ 'low' perhaps?
>

Dat dücht mi eenfach, dat is dat sülve Woord, wat op Hoochdüütsch "barsch"
heet. Blot mit en rutfullen 'r', jüst as wi dat ok in en ganze Reeg annere
Wöör hebbt ('swatt', 'hatt', 'Masch', 'döschen', 'Wuddel', 'Baddel',
'Atillerie' un noch veel, veel mehr [woveel, hängt von'n Dialekt af]).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dank di, Marcus. Wat 'n Döösbattel ik bün! Ja, 'n Döösbartel mit 'n R locker
...

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/0adabc1c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 18:15:10 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:15:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.111510.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

Dear all,

Those of you interested in Antwerp dialect may find this blog interesting:

http://aentwaereps.blogspot.com/

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/936f62bf/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 18:17:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:17:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.15 (03) [DE]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.111707.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (03) [DE-EN]

Liebe Hanne und Lieber Ron,
die Nachrichten über Prof. K. Wanatabe von Hanne ist mir sehr interessant.
Ich habe das Buch "Inführung in't Plattdüütsch" ist ja das erste Buch des
Plattdeuschen für mich, damit habe ich diese Sprache zu lernen angefangen.
Es ist das einzige Lehrbuh des Plattdeutschen geschrieben in Japanisch.
Prof. Wanatabe handelt das Platt von Niedersachsen, Schleswig-Holstein bis
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. In diesem Buch sagte er, daß er mehrere Briefwechsel
mit J. Sass, Gustav Dehning, und H. Gronau gemacht hatte. Man kann in diesem
Buch mehrere Beispiele der plattdeuschen Werken (die Anzüge):
Min Moderspraak, Eikboom, De Edelmann un de Snieder von F. Meyer,
De Mann ut 'n Paradies,  Ulenspegel un Jan Dood von M. Jahn, Dood in Blümen
von M. Jahn, De frömde Fro. von H. Schmidt-Barrien, und
Dei Nibelung'n ehr' Not, übersetzt von H. Meinhold

Prof. Watanabe übersetzte viele Werken von deutschen Klassikern: Goethe,
Schiller u.a. auch die Text Bücher des Detscuhen für Anfänger.

Einige meiner Freunden/inen in Holstein/Hamburg hatten ihm gesehen, als er
dort besucht hatte.

Also, ist es alles für heute,

Hartlich Greuten ut Japan

Yasuji Waki

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/2bedf97d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 18:11:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:11:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.15 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.111154.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

 Another such Low Saxon adjective-adverb is /basch/. I don't yet know its
> etymology. From French /bas/ 'low' perhaps?
>

Dat dücht mi eenfach, dat is dat sülve Woord, wat op Hoochdüütsch
"barsch" heet. Blot mit en rutfullen 'r', jüst as wi dat ok in en ganze
Reeg annere Wöör hebbt ('swatt', 'hatt', 'Masch', 'döschen', 'Wuddel',
'Baddel', 'Atillerie' un noch veel, veel mehr [woveel, hängt von'n Dialekt
af]).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dank di, Marcus. Wat 'n Döösbattel ik bün! Ja, 'n Döösbartel mit 'n R
locker ...


Another word, which is semantically very close is "bats". In many Dutch
dialects it means "stern, surly, haughty" (Westvlaams, Veluws, Drents,
Gronings, Fries). Also shows up in Westfalian "batsig" and German "patzig" <
*backezen ~ batzen: lump. If Southwestern Brabantish would have known the
word, it might have been pronounced as "basch" (losing the t plus
palatalisation).

Influence of "bausch" (G), "boos" (D), "to boast" (E)?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [EN]

Ron wrote: “Low Saxon has the diminutive-frequentive (-l-) form
*ruschel-*'to rustle', especially in reference to leaves and paper,
for instance
(equivalent to German *raschel-*).”

Here in Texas we also have the by-gone phenomenon of cattle rustling which
means stealing cattle from someone else’s herd to add to your own.  I
suppose that brought about the practice of branding cattle, so that one
could identify them.  I suspect this kind of rustle comes from the same
word, but expanded it meaning to steal cattle under cover of darkness and
quickly.

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (01) [EN]

Beste Marlou,

Du schreyvst:

...used the adjective "resch" to characterize a brusque, energetic,
short-spoken person: "Sie hat so eine resche Art", "Sie war schon in ihrer
Jugend eine spröde, resche Person, aber bildschön...". It was mostly used
for women (perhaps men were welcome to be resch, but women weren't :-)), but
not always in a derogatory sense, sometimes with a certain appreciation. It
seems this word is a close relative of "risch", or maybe just another way of
spelling.

Additional to Ron I found some more interesting facts around this word:

*GRIMM:*

"1)  neben rasch erscheint auch die form resch, namentlich oberdeutsch,
ferner risch, rosch, rösch (w. m. s.); zwischen rasch und resch steht die
schreibung räsch: der ein räsche zunge"
*
Harper Online:*

"rash (adj.)
c.1300, "nimble, quick, vigorous," a Scottish and northern word, perhaps
from O.E. -ræsc (cf. ligræsc "flash of lightning"), from P.Gmc. *raskuz (cf.
M.L.G. rasch, M.Du. rasc "quick, swift," Ger. rasch "quick, fast"). Related
to O.E. horsc "quick-witted." Sense of "reckless, impetuous, heedless of
consequences" is attested from 1509.
 Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Dick Bateman <dickbateman at hotmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (01) [EN]

Hello there!

Ron wrote:

In English, adjectival-adverbial "-ish" is used similarly, not only as in
"Danish", "Polish" etc., but also in words such as "peckish", "sluggish",
"selfish", "childish", "mannish", 'devilish" and "fiendish". Informally, it
remains an impromptu active lexical morpheme, as in "noonish" (around noon),
"It'll be ninish by the time he's done", "Don't I look fattish in this
dress?", "Your intro is a bit on the longish side."

In this part of the world at least "ish" can colloquially also be used as a
modifier in its own right, although totally dependent on the preceding
utterance (usually a question), as an alternative to "very", "quite",
"amazingly", etc.  Most interestingly of all it isn't necessarily just a
short informal form of adjective+ish as in Ron's examples above:

"Are you feeling OK now?" - "Ish." (= "OKish")
"Are you looking forward to tomorrow?" - "Ish." (= ?)

Such answers may be accompanied by a waggling of the outstretched hand, palm
down!

Best wishes

Dick Bateman
Retired languages teacher
Germanist
South Saxon (originally from the Sussex coast)
Chapel-en-le-Frith, High Peak, Derbyshire

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Dick!

How nice you decided to add your voice to a chorus of etymologists! Welcome!
I hope we'll hear from you regularly.

So, "ish" *has* become a word, at least in casual speech in a certain
region! I think it was merely a matter of time. I have occasionally resisted
the urge of saying "ish" myself while making a hand movement like that. It
seems so natural and tempting!

It may still be perceived as a somewhat jocular, slangy thing.
Theoretically, though, it is conceivable that it will develop into and
spread as a legitimate word, and the hand movement may become redundant.
Further in theory, "ish" could eventually be used without the implied
dependence (such as "Will you be here at ten then?" "Yeah, ...ish." (which
is really how it ought to be written for now). "Ish" could eventually come
to mean something like "approximately" or "vaguely". To go even farther on
this track of etymological theory in reverse, new words may develop on the
basis of "ish" (e.g. "All the dates and times are *ishy.")

Why is this a big deal? Independent words have been known to become clitics
and to eventually develop into suffixes, in the Germanic languages for
instance the "like" group becoming *-lic ~ -lig ~ ly*. (This process can be
traced very well among the Turkic languages where in some languages the
separate word is preserved, in some languages it has become a particle or
clitic which is dependent but is not integrated into the phonology of the
words to which it is attached, and in some languages it has become a true
suffix which adapts to the vowel harmony of the stems it modifies.) The case
of "ish", if it became legitimized, would be the same process in reverse: a
suffix that develops into a word. I can think of no other case like this.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/fb68f940/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 18:27:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:27:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.15 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.112746.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.09 (01) [EN]

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org <mailto:list at marcusbuck.org>>

> I made some further investigations in Germanic morphology and found out,
> that all what I said was based on false presumptions ;-)
> There's no paradigm "imperative follows infinitive/first person". "ich
> fahre", "er fährt", imperative "fahre" shows, that German too doesn't apply
> a rule like that. Actually the rules depend on the Ablaut classes for
> Germanic verbs. Third person and imperative only coincide for the Ablaut
> classes III.b. (Old High German: infinitive 'werfan', 1st person 'wirfu'
> [1st person followed the same pattern as 2nd/3rd person in Old High German],
> imperative 'wirf' = Modern German: infinitive 'werfen', 3rd person 'wirft',
> imperative 'wirf'), IV. ('neman', 'nimu', 'nim' = 'nehmen', 'nimmt',
> 'nimm'), and V. ('geban', 'gibu', 'gib' = 'geben', 'gibt', 'gib').
> At least according to <http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudsaksisch>
> corresponding forms existed in Old Saxon. The article mentions infinitive
> 'helpan', 1st person 'hilpu', imperative 'hilp' [Ablaut class III.b.]).
> Old Saxon short 'i' was sound-shifted to short 'e' in open syllables and in
> front of 'r' and 'l' later, so 'nimu', 'giƀu', 'wirpu', and 'hilpu' would
> all coincide with the infinitive after that sound shift. The 2nd and 3rd
> persons were formed with an 'i' in it (e.g. 'hilpis', 'hilpid') and where
> thus subject to Umlaut. So the 'i'->'e' sound shift didn't affect them and
> they stay different until today. Imperative forms 'wirp' and 'hilp' would
> have been subject to the 'i'->'e' sound shift too. But in closed syllables
> 'nim' and 'giƀ' would lead to 'nimm' and 'giff'. They would only lead to
> 'nehm' and 'geev' if the syllables would have been open. It's not
> impossible, that besides 'nim' and 'giƀ' based on dialect (most of our
> knowledge of Old Saxon is based on documents from the southern periphery and
> we know few about the northern dialects) there where different forms (e.g.
> 'nima' and 'giƀa'), that would explain the modern forms of 'nehm' and
> 'geev'. Another explanation would be, that the singular imperative forms
> were adjusted to the plural.
> And in the end we are where we were right at the start: Most likely it's a
> matter of dialect.
>
One more update: I just found a reference in H. Zahrenhusen: 'Lautstand der
Mundart von Horneburg', that in 1909 when Zahrenhusen wrote the book, in
Horneburg (which is southeast of Hamburg, about halfway between my home and
Hamburg), the imperative forms 'giff' and 'itt' could still be heard besides
the more widespread forms 'geev' un 'eet'. Personally I only know 'geev' and
'eet' from my dialect. But it seems, 'giff' and 'itt' are the original forms
and 'geev' and 'eet' are younger forms that were created by clearing effects
(but have gained widespread use cause they are easier to memorize).

That would mean, it's not German influence, but rather the opposite: A Low
Saxon innovation that was established although German backed the older
forms. Sounds much better to me than the "Low Saxon breaks under German
influence" story ;-)

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks a lot, Marcus! This is really interesting.

Let me just add for the benefit of our friends everywhere that today's Low
Saxon imperative forms influenced those of Missingsch and Missingsch-derived
northern German dialects. ("Missingsch" is a German dialect with a strong
Low Saxon substratum.)  In such varieties you say "Ess!" instead of "iss!"
(eat!), "geb!" instead of "gib!" (give!), and so forth.

Sounds much better to me than the "Low Saxon breaks under German influence"
story ;-)

I agree.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/6fff8316/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 19:32:51 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:32:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.15 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.123251.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.15 (01) [DE-EN]

 Sorry, dear Ron, you know that such statements mobilize all the spirit of
competition :-) But I assure you that it took me only 20 seconds to hit on
"zig". "Das hab ich dir doch schon zig Mal gesagt!"  suffix developed into a
word. Is it?

Hartlich!

Marlou

Ron wrote:

 a suffix that develops into a word. I can think of no other case like this.


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Aha! Good one, Marlou!

Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/5018969b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 19:38:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:38:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (06) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.123821.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]

 Beste Marlou,

Diin Biidrag hett mi allerbest touseggt!

Du schreyvst:

Die Suche nach einem pd. Äquivalent für "Computer" hat schon mehrere
erfreuliche Vorschläge gezeitigt, aber dennoch finde ich es völlig legitim,
auch in pd. Texten Computer "Computer" zu nennen. Vorsicht: Das Finden von
"anschaulichen", "griffigen" Äquivalenten kann die Sprache auch in die
Humor-Ecke zurückdrängen, aus der sie sich sowieso nur zaghaft raustraut!

Un' denn is door ouk noch anners watt. De düütsche Minsch kann heel best mit
de "Behörden-Spraok" ümgoahn, un' denn kaomt doar wat bii 'ruut as (Fehrs):
"Ick hebb' föör 'n Tempoövertreden 'n Straofmandaot kreegen!" Greesig! Kunn
'n wii nich bii Platt bliiven un' seggen "Ick bün tou hatt/hard foyhrt, un'
doar kreyg ick 'n (ingelsch) Ticket föör!"? Sou waard hier denn woll snackt.
"In der Kürze liegt die (plattdeutsche) Würze!"

Un' denn - schinnerhaftig tohoup-set'te Wöör as *"**
Frequenzbereichszuweisungsplanverordnung**"* (dat Woord givvt dat
waorhavvtig!!!;* *denkt maol an dennen dusseligen
"Iisenbohn...dreyer"!!)* *passt
amenn' nich mang uns Spraok - dat laot 'troust de houghdüütschen Amtslüüd
maoken, in Brüssel edders in Berlin of Hanouber.

Bii Fehrs' jemmer List' van Neologismen kriig ick faoken dat Schuddern...

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (03) [NDS]

Am 14.06.2009 um 23:17 schrieb Marlou Lessing:
 - Ault-Sassesk / Westfäälsk wiider unnen -

> Platt muss neue Wörter und auch Fremdwörter aufnehmen dürfen, es muss auch
> über Abstraktes reden (lernen), über Philosophie und Politik und auch
> Bürokratie. Das ist dringend, ja überfällig. Saftige Neuschöpfungen: ja,
> aber nur, wenn man sie auch ernst nehmen kann!
> ...
> Priorität 1: Platt reden.
> Priorität 2: Hochdeutschizismen vermeiden. Wenn's nicht anders geht, Wort
> anständig "plätten". Dann weiterreden!!!
> Priorität 3: Gute, zeitlose, nachhaltig verwendbare Neuschöpfungen.
>

(ault-sassesk (aune gewäär!):
... ...
êriste gibod (1): witig sahso thiudisko rethinon.

ôthar gibod (2): unwîs ovar-thiudisk wîsa far-môthan. sô ne gêd, word sidigi
»metlîk makôn«. thanna forth gimahlon!!!

thriddio gibod (3): gôde, al-dar-lang niuwi gi-skepi makôn.
---
Westf.:

Plat mot nigge wäärden un auk früömd-wäärden  upniemen dörfen, et mot auk
öäwer abstraktet redden (läären), üäwer filosofigge un politik un auk
bürokratigge. dat is dringend, jau üäwerfällig. Sappige nigschöppenge: jau,
awerst blaut, wan me se auk ernstliken niemen kan!
...
Prioriteyt 1: Plat küüren.

Prioriteyt 3: Nighaug-ismen vermiiden. Wan't nich anners geyt, dan dat waard
anstännig "platen", dan faart-redden!!

Prioriteyt 2: Gou(d)e, tiidlause, nauhaltigen verwendbare Nigschöppenge
maaken.)
-----

Leyw Marlou, hey Liiglänners,

wat Marlou daar schriewen heft, is mi uut dem herte spruoken!

Daar bruuk ik eygentlik niks wiider to seggen. Ik mag aawerst wual na wat
drupsetten:

 Wörter wie "Huulbessen" sind eine echte Bereicherung, und Platt ist klasse
> darin, Abstraktes durch Griffiges zu ersetzen; aber man darf es nicht darauf
> festnageln.
>

Recht sau. "Huulbessen" wööre man as »Heulbesen« auk 'ne beriikernge van'm
Haugdüüdsken. Annersiits: »Staubsauger« is auk gawwe in plat to üäwersetten:
»Staub« is »staf|stof|stoff« un ”Sauger" is »suuger«, saumet is »stafsuuger«
auk gouet plat daarfor (vgl. SASS-Wörterbuch: Stoffsuger).

 Et gift Lüüe, de verlanget van platdüüdsk, for allens en "eegen" Ward to
> hebben, süss sii et »nich echt«. Dat geyt sau wiit, dat me as
> platdüüdsksnackerske nich "Auto" seggen draf, dan dat is je nich plat.
> Amüsanterwiis haulen düsse minsken dat waard "Auto" for Haugdüüdsk.
>

Jau, jau, ”kraftwaagen, kraftfaartüüg" heft sik nich mal in Haugdüüdsk
dürsetten lauten, trots amtlike födderunge (iuut inner [afseyn vanner]
amtssprauke).

 För socke Lüüe is plat natüürlik eyne muusedaude sprauke, nich mal mangels
> spriäkern, sünnern dür eäre verstickende prinziipiggen.
>

Ik gläuwe, dat hat met borneerter (engstärnige) kleyn- un speetbörgerligheyt
un autoritären charakter to doun. Dat sind de sülwigen lüüe, de en grout
geschregge anfanget, wan ichtenswel up Haugdüüdsk wat en bietken anners segt
of schrift, un sii dat en inflochtenet platwaard.

Algemeyn segt, is dat al en teyken / symptom daarvan, dat platdüüdsk nine
ümmegankssprauke mehr is, un van den platfründen meystig blaut as 'ne
museale, allenfals folkloristiske saake bedrachtet werd.

Met sprauken odder tungensliägen, de na lebennig sind un spruaken werden
(auk waar de amtssprauke wat annert is), hewwet de daare lüüe düsse
swärlichheyten nich. Miin spitten-biispell is daar jümmer dat
Swiitserdüüdsk, vor allem dat "Züritüütsch". Et is vanner struktuur en heyl
aulde sprauke (en dialekt van Middelhaug-/Fröü-nighaugdüüdsk). Man daarinne
- jau, met hülpe van nigbeldenge un früömd-wäärden - küönt se üäwer allens
kommuniseeren, of anner uni, of inner disko.

Aawers: de gruntlaage daarvan is liikers de vull uutbellede »haugsprauke«,
nich in sinne van haug un plat, man van (aulde) schriftsprauke, auk stätske
sprauke van den belleden un börgeren, wat dat middelhaugdüüdske was.

Un daaarümme miin lesder punt, den ik drupsetten wil:

Wan wi en platdüüdsk willet, dat  "auk öäwer abstraktet redden (läären)"
sol, dan müetet wi nich blaut den waardschat van de platdüüdske wiruchte
(wirgeburt, renaissance) van 18./19. jhdt., man auk de vull entwickelden
fuormen un begriepe  des

saunäumeden "middelnidderdüütsk" van de hansetiid

in blick niemen un bruuken. "Mnd." is blaut tiidlik richtig, as analogii to
Mhd., man et kennteeknet im prinsiip een un de sülwige sprauke as vandaage:
sassesk, platdüüdsk (in'm ünnerscheyd to aultsassesk). Dan et heft ninen
spraukwannel in Sassesk=Plat giewen, de met de nighaugdüütske
vokalverschuuwenge vergliikbar wöre.

Met annern wäärden:

Wi miötet en »platdüüdske haugsprauke« to stanne bringen, wan plat for
moderne minsken bruukbar werden sol. Ik fiine, dat du, Marlou, met diine
websiiden daar al voruut geyst!

Man frauget mi nich, wo dat "hauge plat" inföört werden kan ... ;-)

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrüg => Berlin-Pankow

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/f81287c0/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 20:26:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:26:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.132644.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Antero Helasvuo <antero.helasvuo at welho.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (02) [EN]

Lowlands-L List kirjoitti:
>
>
> From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com <mailto:
> luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>>
> Subject: LL-L "Resources"
>
> Dear all,
>
> Those of you interested in Antwerp dialect may find this blog interesting:
>
> http://aentwaereps.blogspot.com/
>

Dear Luc (and everybody),

Thanks a milloin for this great link, especially, because there is a nice
piece about the great poet and performer Wannes van de Velde, whom I had the
honor of knowing in the late sixties. Only recently I learned that he passed
away last November after a long struggle against leukemia. Those who are
interested in his oeuvre and the Antwerp dialect should check out another
site http://www.antwerps.be/  You may not like everything you see and hear
there, but among the gems are songs by Wannes all the way from his earliest
recordings, like the famous "Pieter Breughel in Brussel", up to
"Oorlogsgeleerden", a version of Bob Dylan's "The Masters of War" sung by
Wannes and Roland Van Campenhoud; plus lots of his lyrics. Wannes was a
carrier of his heritage pure and noble and therefore a breaker of barriers
and a gift for the whole mankind.

Hartelijke groet

Antero

-- 
Antero Helasvuo
Luutnantinpolku 9 C 20
00410 HELSINKI
FINLAND

TEL +358 9 5872345
antero.helasvuo at welho.com

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/2458b3b9/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 22:43:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:43:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (08) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.154353.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language construction" 2009.06.15 (07) [DE-EN]

Salve, Lowlanders,

in addition to Marlou's thoughts on the modernization of Low Saxon under
"LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]" and my consenting reaction("LL-L
"Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (06) [DE-NDS]" I'm going to tell you, that also my
Westphalian friend Olaf Bordasch has posted remarkable thoughts on that
matter on his website. He comes also to the result (that he tould me already
some time ago), that, for the survival of Low Saxon, we need a kind of
written (high) language, a

»written Saxon language«, tying up to the written Low German language of the
16th and 17th century. "It should not be written phonetically but cover up
and tide over the dialectical differences, instead of underlining them."

At the end of his webpage http://www.plattdeutsch-niederdeutsch.net/
sprachgeschi chte.htm
- under the heading "Die Zukunft des Niederdeutschen" he writes inter alia:

"Die gute Nachricht ist, dass der Anteil derer, die in Umfragen mäßige
aktive Kenntnisse des Niederdeutschen angeben, viel langsamer sinkt. Im
Allgemeinen wird es sich dabei um Leute handeln, die das Niederdeutsche erst
später gelernt haben. Die Verbreitung von Wörterbüchern, Grammatiken,
niederdeutscher Literatur u.s.w. ist offensichtlich nicht ohne Wirkung
geblieben. Übrigens lehrt das Beispiel Irlands auch, dass es durchaus
möglich ist ein gesellschaftliches Klima herbeizuführen, in der die Menschen
sich wieder der Minderheitensprache zuwenden und diese auch aktiv
gebrauchen. (In Irland sind dies etwa 15% der Bevölkerung.)
Dazu bedarf es allerdings einer geschriebenen Hochsprache, in der sich z.B.
auch wissenschaftliche Literatur verfassen lässt. Nun gibt es in
Norddeutschland tatsächlich Ansätze, einige der bestehenden Kulturdialekte
zu Hochsprachen auszubauen. Das wird aber nicht funktionieren, denn Sprecher
aus anderen Regionen werden niemals eine fremde Mundart akzeptieren. Ein
Dialekt bleibt ein Dialekt. Die regelmäßig zu beobachtenden
Meinungsverschiedenheiten zwischen Sprechern aus verschiedenen Regionen
hinsichtlich der anzuwendenden Schreibweise sind letztlich Folge der
inadäquaten am Hochdeutschen orientierten Schreibung.

Eine Erfolg versprechende Möglichkeit könnte die Entwicklung einer
Schreibsprache Sassisch nach dem Vorbild der frühneuniederdeutschen
Schriftsprache des 16. und 17. Jhs. sein. Solch eine Schriftsprache dürfte
nicht phonetisch geschrieben werden, sie müsste die Dialektunterschiede
zudecken und überbrücken, anstelle sie zu betonen."

Goutgaun!

joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrüg => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks for sharing your interesting thoughts and findings, Joachim.

Fundamental to this issue, I think, are the attitudes people have to Low
Saxon. Let me try a basic classification pertaining to the situation in
Northern Germany:

   - Those that despite regional language status see Low Saxon as a dialect
   group (*Mundartgruppe*) of German, thus as subordinate to German:
   "Dialects are essentially irrelevant. Let people talk properly (in
   Standard German) if they want to be able to talk about anything needed
   nowadays!"
   (Klaus Groth summarizing this attitude: "De Kinner lehrt al in de Schol:
   | Dat weer so grof, so rog, | Paß höchstens in’e Kæk bi’n Kohl | Un achter
   Putt un Plog.")

   - Those that may recognize Low Saxon as a language in its own right but
   one which is on its way out, should be left alone to die or maybe mummified
   and displayed in a museum:
   "You simply can not talk about just anything in this language. Enjoy it
   with its limitations while it's still hear. Don't try to make it what it is
   not!"

   - Those that believe that Low Saxon might survive as a jumple of dialects
   only, promoted by local organizations that do or do not collabirate, without
   any sort or standardization being promoted or attempted:
   "No language engineering and planning please! We like the diversity and
   fragmentation in which local kahunas have their say. We want promoters of
   unification excluded, because we don't trust them, believe they want to do
   away with dialect diversity and instead create a single standard variety.
   *Our* dialect is so special, so different, so illusive that no one can
   really understand it, let alone make any sort of standard writing system
   apply to it."

   - Those that want the language to survive and believe this can only be
   accomplished by unification and standardization:
   "Centuries of exclusion and neglect have been confining the language to
   limited contexts. It needs to catch up to remain viable, although the means
   of doing so are still being debated. Dialect diversity needs not suffer
   because of creating a unified, cross-dialect writing system, even though
   opponents claim it will kill diversity. Most speakers can understand one
   another across dialect boundaries when they speak. Diverse "phonetic"
   spelling emphasizes the boundaries."

Incentives to update the lexicon thus depend on one's basic attitude. Some
believe it should not be done at all, and ways and means are still debatable
among those that do approve of it. There is no need to discuss tthe ways and
means with folks that are opposed to it to begin with.

Lexical development takes numerous forms, and it tends to occur naturally if
allowed to occur.

Neologisms (new words and expressions) fall into two categories:

   1. loanwords
      1. phonologically adapted importations
      2. calques (i.e. translated loanwords)
      2. language-internal creations

Most languages have a mixture of all these. Most of them enter the language
gradually. Once they are considered established and generally accepted they
become official. That's when they are included in dictionaries, for
instance, also when they are used in official education if the language is
used in that capacity.
New words and expressions tend to stand a chance of making it by way of
usage within large communities. Very often this happens through literature.
Go back to older literature in most languages and you'll find implicitly
proposed neologisms that never made to to the stage of general acceptance.
Some of them did make it.

Again, please look at the case of Neo-Norwegian (*nynorsk*). There is only a
loose standard that is being constantly fed by relevant dialects and is also
not immune to influences of the majority Dano-Norwegian (*bokmål*) language.
The dialect provenance of spoken and written Neo-Norwegian is in most cases
obvious to listeners and speakers. But this is only possible because there
is a single writing system that accommodates all relevant dialects. In this
interdialectal communication, words and expressions may be borrowed across
dialect boundaries and may attain some sort of inter-dialectical status.

As for Low Saxon neologisms such as *Huulbessen* ("howl broom" = 'vacuum
cleaner'), *Puuschenkino* ("slipper cinema" = 'television') and
*Klœnkassen*("chat box" = 'telephone'), they seem to have started as
what you might want
to call "nicknames" (much like "boob tube" for "television" in English). Low
Saxon speakers love this sort of thing. Personally I am not opposed to such
words becoming "official". I find it no less acceptable than the possible
German calque **Stuuvsuger* (< *Staubsauger* "dust sucker") 'vacuum
cleaner'.

That's my 1.34 Euro's worth.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: The web servers are on which all LL-L pages are crashed due to a power
outage and have been down for hours now. Grrrrrr ...

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/0b035e8a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 00:37:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:37:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (09) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.173757.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (08) [DE-EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> I find it no less acceptable than the possible German calque */Stuuvsuger/
> (< /Staubsauger/ "dust sucker") 'vacuum cleaner'.
>

Is villicht nu ok blot wedder en Saak von Dialekt, aver heet Stuuvsuger nich
ehrder "Stubensauger"? 'Staub' is doch 'Stoff' (mnd. 'stoff' oder 'stôf').
(Wobi 'Stuuv' ok wedder bi dat Hoochdüütsche utlehnt is, ans dee dat 'Stoov'
heten, seggt mien Wöörbook).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Nee, nee, Marcus. Recht hest du.

Haha! Da' 's 'n Ding! Ik wull Spaaß daar œver maken, wiel dat ik wen kenn,
de dat seggt. Un amenn sä 'k dat sülmst ... ;-)

Nu, ja ... "Hein, suug' maal gau de Stuuv'!" geiht je ook, ne?

Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: The servers are finally back up, and our Lowlands-L pages are
accessible again. About time, too.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/de40ff87/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 04:59:36 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:59:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (10) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.215936.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 10
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear friends,

I wrote yesterday:

Leve Lüüd',
Nu heff ik mien Klaus-Groth-Sieten up Schick bröcht un ähr ook 'n bäten wat
upfladuust. Kiekt jo ähr maal an!

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/

Folks,
I've renovated and redecorated my Klaus Groth presentation. Please take a
look!

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/

People started to visit the renovated site pretty much right away. In the
meantime, the servers went down and stayed down for hours. I apologize for
the inconvenience if you tried to visit this or other Lowlands sites
unsuccessfully.

Now that this and other presentation are accessible again, please visit it6
and give me your opinions if you have any.

Please note the following:

   - The old version of the presentation has been linked to from a number of
   sites and received an increasing number of visitors when I decided to
   renovate it.
   - Many of the pages have sound files, and I plan to add more of those,
   including slow and clear readings of the poems.
   - The Low Saxon versions of the poems have "hover reveal" of German
   glosses. Just place your cursor on any word, and you'll see the German
   equivalent(s).
   - In the left-hand menu, please rest your cursor on any of the poem
   titles/links to reveal the titles of my English translations.
   - I plan to add further poems and songs.
   - I don't claim that this is top world literature. Groth is considered
   the father of the Low Saxon reawakening in Germany, and he inspired many in
   the Netherlands and Belgium as well. He was a true Lowlander. His works
   remain popular at least among seniors in Northern Germany.

Enjoy (if that's the right word)!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/18cfc437/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 14:36:56 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:36:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.073656.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paddy Van Raepenbusch <paddy.vanraepenbusch at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Greeting!

First of all, I must tell you that I am just a neophyte when it comes
to linguistic issues!
My interest stems from my genealogical research in the origin of my
family name: Van Raepenbusch.
My earliest origin were traced back around the 1640 in
Roeselare/Brugge ( now Belgium)
Spelling variations found are: Vanraepenbusch, Vanrapenbusch (french
flanders) or simply Raepenbusch.

The origin of the name is most likely topographic where the "van" meant
"from".
Dr. Frans Debrabandere’s  “Dictionary of the Surnames in Belgium and
North France”, gives some suggestions of placename such as Rapenbos,
Rapenburg (Raepenburg),Rapenbusch-Bosschen...etc

I did found in an old map:“Flandriae Comitatus Pars Septentrionalis”
by N. Visscher ( abt. 1698), two references:
Rapenborg near today's town of Maldegem and
An estate called "Rapenburg" which according to historian, was a
freehold under the Ouburg of Ghent (13th century), today there is a
"Raepenburg" farm in that location (near Zomergem) where the remain of
a moat which surrounded the farm is still visible.
ref:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~noemeetjesland/meetjesland/zomergem.htm<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7Enoemeetjesland/meetjesland/zomergem.htm>

On another ancient map, the name is written Rupenburg with a windmill
at that location (map: “Carte du Comte’ de Flandre”  1704 by
Guillaume de L’Isle)

So much for historical references!

I have basically two questions:
1) The suffixes of my surname today being "-busch", could it have been
originally "-burg". Is this an "acceptable" hypothesis?

2) The origin of "raepen" still buggle my mind. In today's
interpretation it is often referred as a beet ( navet in french).
According to Killian’s “Etymologicum TeuTonicae Linguae” (1599), , the
word "raepen" relates to grab, take, gather...etc and by extension to
"thief" whereas in the  « Le grand dictionnaire francois et flamand »
by Pierre Richelet (1739), both interpretations are given, i.e. the
beet (navet) and to gather as in "Uyt alles kan men vruchten raepen".
Another interesting "dual" interpretation can be seen in a famous 17th
century painting by a Dutch Artist, Adriaen van de Venne (1589-1662) ,
“'Elck is om Raepen uit' (Dutch proverb: Everybody looks after their
own share) which depicts farmers gathering beets!
So what would be the most plausible interpretation on the origin of my
surname?

Thank you in advance for your help

--
Best Regards
Paddy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Paddy!

Welcome to the speakers' corner!

It seems to me that the old *raepen* you're talking about is the cognate of
English "to reap".

The *raepen* in Raepenbusch seems to be a noun in the plural, though.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/45f51f50/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 14:39:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:39:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.16 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.073947.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (07) [EN]

RE: Antero and Luc on http://aentwaereps.blogspot.com/ and
http://www.antwerps.be/

  Nice catches, I've been reading the first one occasionally too, and his
dialect is of a very pure and old-fashioned style, but his way of writing it
has many shortcomings, like inserting all the sandhi-sounds between tzo
words: "Dat is echt niet erg", in mine and antwerps.be-style "Dad is echt ni
aerg" would be written "Da d is z echt ni j aereg"; whereas both would lead
to the same pronunciation (by different rules), the last one is a lot harder
to rea dand contains way too many innecessary letters. But I noticed
oftenwhile that older speakers want to write every single detail in
phonetic-like dutch spelling, whereas the younger generation like me and
Filip Camerman from antwerps.be want to create a modern spelling in more
acceptable Dutch style but with assuming pronunciation rules that make the
smaller details clearer and will lead to a correct pronunciation anyway.
It's not because the long ee is pronounced more like èèj or ei that you
can't write it ee like in Dutch - but older speakers are horrified by this
and see it as a decay, and think it hould be written ei or èèj.

However I don't fully agree with the spelling proposed on antwerps.be, and
me and Filip have a lot of discussions on the forums.
 but both are still a very useful source to recommend

Diederik

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/30fa4f5f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 14:46:39 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:46:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.074639.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.15 (01) [DE-EN]

>From Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote:  So, "ish" *has* become a word, at least in casual
speech in a certain region! I think it was merely a matter of time. I have
occasionally resisted the urge of saying "ish" myself while making a hand
movement like that. It seems so natural and tempting!

 Another 'joke' reply, such as 'ish', which has become entirely accepted
without a glance back to its colloquial origins is 'when'

As in when someone is pouring a drink and they ask the person for whom it is
being poured : "Say when" i.e. when I should stop pouring. And that person
replies 'When!"

I remember back in the 50s people laughing at this as a joke reply : now it
is the accepted reply!

In the same league  when someone said " I 'm hungry ( or thirsty or tired
etc) "  one replied "Oh really I thought you were Pauline ( or Robert or
Fred whatever name they had).

I think 'ish' is pretty widespread now. You can hear it on TV and radio
without need for any reaction or lack of comprehension to be written into
the script. One person who uses it a lot is Stephen Fry on QI and that would
be reason enough for it to be spread and accepted.

It even gets used where there is no original adjective to have added 'ish'
to!

"Are you feeling better?"  "Ish" where it clearly means  "Not entirely"

Heather

Worcester UK

whose roses took a battering from a hail storm last night and whose house
was flooded ( a bit) by the rising waters of the flash flood that followed!
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Heather!

Thanks for the update on "ish".

"Are you feeling better?"  "Ish" where it clearly means  "Not entirely"

This confirms the development I tried to predict.

The "when" thing is current all over the English-speaking world, by the way.

Regards,
Reinhad/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: I hope you'll soon have dry feet again. We're in for some rain here
later this week, after a long spell of splendid summer weather.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/61187032/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 14:51:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:51:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.16 (04) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.075140.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (06) [DE]

Hannelore Hinz  wrote:
Danke Reinhard,

großes Kompliment! Alle japanischen Schriftzeichen stimmen überein mit dem
veröffentlichten Titelblatt (BAND 7, Seite 24) des Watanabe'schen Werkes
"Inführung in't Plattdüütsch". Ich hatte dieses Blatt vorher gescannt, aber
das sehr grobe Raster schlug durch. (Schlechte Papier- und Druckqualität.)
In BAND 7  ist auch Reuters Eikboomlied: plattdeutsch-japanisch (aus
Watanabe: Inführung in't Plattdüütsch) veröffentlicht. (Auch hier leider
schlechte Druckqualität.)

Mien best' Gräuten.
Hanne

 "Eikboom" übersetzt ins Japanisch von Prof. K. Watanabe：

槲の木 フリッツ・ロイター

私は 一本の槲の木を知っている。それは海辺に立つ、
北風はその堅い幹にとよもして吹けども、
誇らかに槲はその雄々しき樹冠を高くかかげ、
かくてすでに千年の年を経て来た。
人間の手がこれをうえたのでもないのに、
槲はポメルンからオランダに達している。

weiter,,,,,,

Ick weit einen Eikboom, de steiht an de See,
De Nurdstorm, de bruust in sin Knäst;
Stolt reckt hei de mächtige Krone in de Höh,
So is dat al dusend Jahr west,
Kein Minschenhand, de hett em plan't;
Hei reckt sik von Pommern bet Nedderland.

weiter......

Hartlich Greuten,

Yasuji,ut Japan

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.15 (03) [DE]

Lieber Yasuji und lieber Ron,

ich habe mich sehr über die Nachricht aus Japan gefreut. Nun will ich gerne
die vollständige Liste *Veröffentlichungen von Kakuji Watanabe*
hier mitteilen.
Zuvor noch hinzufügen, daß auch ich die erwähnte Fernsehsendung sah.
Allerdings im sogenannten *schwarzen Kanal. *Ich wohnte damals in einem
anderen Hochhaus in der 10. Etage Westseite. Ich brauchte keine Antenne, nur
meinen Daumen in die günstigste Empfangsrichtung halten und Pst. nicht zu
laut einstellen...
In Ratzeburg, Haus Mecklenburg rezitierte Watanabe Gedichte von F. Reuter.
Dort hängt auch ein großes Foto in einem bestimmten Raum (Saal), auf dem der
japanische Meister zu sehen ist. Es ist ein s/w-Foto. Ich habe es mir immer
angeschaut, wenn hier hier auftreten durfte.

Hier nun die Liste (welch' große Leistung dieses Mannes, nicht zu fassen)

Fougue: Undine (Übersetzungen) 1929 Ikubundo-Verlag
Deutsche Etymologie (wiss. Aufsatz) 1935 Daigakushorin
Hölderlin: Hyperion (Übersetzungen) 1936 Iwanami-Verlag
Plattdeutsche Literatur und Fritz Reuter (Essay) 1938 "Deutsche Literatur"
Reuter: Franzosentid (Übersetzung) 1939 Hakasuisha-Verlag
Das Leben von Hölderlin (Buch) 1940 Kobundo-Verlag
Konstruktion der Franzosentid 1940 "Deutsche Literatur"
Charakteristik Fritz Reuters 1940 "Goethe-Jahrbuch"
Novalis: Fragmente (Übersetzung) 1941 Iwanami-Verlag
Weltanschauung Fritz Reuters (Essay) 1941 "Deutsche Literatur"
Schiller: Geschichte des 30jährigen Krieges (Übersetzung) 1943
Iwanami-Verlag
Plattdeutsche Grammatik (Buch) 1943 Daigakushorin-Verlag
Bielschowski: Goethe 1  1943 Morikita-Verlag
Vaterlandsgefühl Fritz Reuters (Essay) 1943 "Deutsche Literatur"
Plattdeutscher Dichter Reuter 1943 Deutsches Jahrbuch
Deutsche Wortbildungslehr (Buch) 1943 Daigakushorin
Bielschowski: Goethe 2 1946 Fuji-Verlag
Storms Novellen (Übersetzung) 1943 Yashiro-Verlag
Goethe: Werthers Leiden  1947 Fuji-Verlag
Goethes Singspiele (Essay) 1947 Universitätszeitung
Goethe: Römische Elegien (Übersetzung)  1948 Zeitschrift Ningen
Goethe: Claudine (Übersetzung) 1948 Meiso-Verlag
Goethe: Theatralische Sendung (Übersetzung) 1948 Daimaru-Verlag
Goethes idealistische Gesellschaft (Essay) 1948 Jiyu-Bunka
Hebbels Novellen 1948 Baba-Verlag
Goethe: Trilogie der Leidenschaft 1949 Kodansha-Verlag
Goethe: Römische Elegien 1949 Kodansha-Verlag
Goethes Religion (Essay)  1949 Kodansha-Verlag
Goethes ewige Jugend (Essay) 1949 Moderne Literatur
Deutsche Literatur im 18. und 19. Jahrhundert (Essay) 1950 Dohyo-Zeitschrift
Fritz Reuter: Festungstid (Übersetzung)                           1950 . . .
Phonetische Studien des Reuters Plattdeutsch (Essay) 1952
Universitätszeitschrift
Vergleichende Literaturgeschichte im 19. Jahrhundert (Essay) (in Buchform)
1953 Daisan-Verlag
Franz Kafke: Amerika (Übersetzung) 1954 Shinchosha-Verlag
Fritz Reuter 1. (Essay) 1954 Universitätszeitschrift
Franz Kafkas Bild (Essay) 1954 "Deutsche Literatur"
Eduard Mörike (Essay) 1954 Daisan-Verlag
Fritz Reuter 2. (Essay)  1955 Universitätszeitschrift
Über Fritz Reuter (Essay) 1955 "Deutsche Literatur"
Große Deutsche Grammatik 1956 Sanshusha-Verlag
Inführung in't Plattdüütsch 1959 Daigakushorin-Verlag
Mecklenburgisch - Fritz Reuters Grammatik (noch nicht veröffentlicht)
Sanshusha-Verlag
Fritz Reuters Leben und Werke (1200 Druckseiten)      Selbstverlag
Fritz Reuters dichtungen (etwa 40 Druckseiten)  1960
Japanische Meister der Erzählung  1960 Verlag Walter Dorn (jetzt im Verlag
Dorn)
(Übersetzung von jalanischen Dreizeiler-Gedichten)
Romantrilogie der Leidenschaft von Yoichi Nakagawa
(Übersetzung von japanischen Romanen)

 Was können wir und sein Heimatland heute noch von Kakuji Watanabe
weitergeben, das müßte sich doch immer  lohnen!

Herzliche Grüße.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/97cb9c9b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 17:19:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:19:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2009.06.16 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.101920.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

Recently I learned a "new" word that is becoming current among people with
an interest in language politics and specifically in minority language
issues:



*vergonha*


It is pronounced [ver'gʊɲɔ] (roughly "vehr-GOO-nyaw").

It is an Occitan word literally meaning "(feeling of) shame". "shyness" or
"embarrassment" (cf. Catalan *vergonya*, Galician *vergoña*, Castilian *
vergüenza*, Portuguese *vergonha*, Sardinian *bergúgna**, *Italian *vergogna
*, Latin *verecundia*).

Within the mentioned contexts this Occitan word *vergonha* denotes the
results of conditions under which speakers are made to feel ashamed of their
own language, typically a non-recognized minority language. As we have
discussed on earlier occasions, this often leads to such speakers
considering their own language inferior, and this attitude prevents them
from using the language in public and from passing it on to their offspring.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/af0e7401/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 19:18:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:18:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16 (06) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.121828.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16 (01) [EN]

Hey Paddy (van Raepenbusch),
 Indeed 'raap' is the modern Dutch word for turnip, Latin name 'Brassica
rapa'. In Amsterdam we also have a street name "Rapenburg", so I thought I'd
try to find the etymology on that one as it could be related to your story.
Bu googling for that I actually found a reference to the Flemish one as you
mentioned:

*Vanaf de Stuiver liep hij immers rechtlijnig door via het Sompelstraatje
(tot na de tweede wereldoorlog nog in gebruik) langsheen het Goed te
Zoetendale (nu F. Standaert) tot aan het Hof Rapenburg (Bos, E. Verschelde)
om, de grensstraat Waarschoot-Zomergem volgend, verderop de hierboven
aangehaalde aansluiting te verwezenlijken. In het landboek van 1798 werd hij
aangeduid als de “Eekloosche voetweg”, wellicht de oudste verbinding tussen
Eeklo en Gent. In de atlas van de buurtwegen van 1841 werd hij evenwel niet
opgenomen, theoretisch toen reeds afgeschaft zijnde.*
**
There also seems to be a street called Rapenburg in Leiden in Holland.

Amsterdam Rapenburg:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapenburg_(Amsterdam<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapenburg_%28Amsterdam>
)
 Leiden Rapenburg:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapenburg_(gracht<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapenburg_%28gracht>)


The wiki article says the origin of both names is unknown. I hope you can
read Dutch btw;-)

Cheers,
Diederik

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/4626a501/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 21:48:45 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:48:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.16 (07) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.144845.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]

Vielen Dank, liebe Elsie,

unser Co-Founder and Chief Editor *Ron *hat Recht, daß es keine häßliche
Sprache auf der Welt gibt. 'Dreschmaschine' auf Afrikaans 'dorsmasjien'
klingt auch schön, und ich habe es nicht mit dem Wort 'durst' in Verbindung
gebracht. Wenn ich Durst habe, heff ick Döst, odder ick bün döstig.
Dreschen, also Nd. döschen, das heißt Körner aus den Ähren  schlagen. *Syn *
bachern

Gruß.
Hannelore

Un nu büst du an,
leiw' Marlou,

ich heff dat all ahnt, du warst di glieksen künnigmaken. Dien Bidrag is
bannig gaut un hett väl tau bedüden.
Hm, "...Was Hochdeutsch darf, darf Platt noch lange nicht. Hochdeutsch darf
Fremdwörter aufnehmen, sich zu eigen machen,  aber in Platt wird das
kritisiert, "das passt nicht ", usw..  Da muß ich widersprechen. Wir Autoren
wurden immer dahingehend orientiert, Fremdwörter zu übernehmen, wenn sie
absolut nicht in anderer Form zu deuten waren oder man keine bildhafte
Umsetzung fand. Aber m.E. damit sparsam umgehen.
Upstunns (auf die Stunde) kam mir der Gedanke, wie hat denn Fritz Reuter in
seinem Buch "Ut de Franzosentid" und überhaupt Fremdwörter vermittelt. Er
hat die Sache bannig *swienplietsch, originell, auch humorvoll *bewältigt.
Na ja, damals. Hier einige Beispiele:
Pampuschen: Weiche Hausschuhe von frz. babouche;
Pankrott : Bankerott
Fläutduhs : sanfte Flöte, vom franz. flute douce, Klarinette, (dieses  ´`
Zeichen über dem u bei flute kann ich nicht drucken, habe keinen Zugang zu
Sonderzeichen).
Ut de Franzosentid:
Tikzionnöhr von Pochen - (frz. dictionaire de poche) Taschenwörterbuch.
dü Wäng - (Frz. du vin) Wein.
Ich lese gerade, ein Herr Droz war auch eine Zeitlang Reuters Privatlehrer
im Französischen.
la grang Nationg - (frz. la grande nation) die große Nation (Frankreich).

Wahrscheinlich hatte Reuter vermutlich einen Hang zur Lautschrift.

lö grang Amperör - (frz. le grand Empereur) der große Kaiser (Napoleon).
Mußiö lö Balljif - (frz. Monsieur le Bailli) Herr Amtmann.
Pläh t'i? - (frz. plait-il? ´` ) Wie beliebt? Hier: Ist es gefällig?
Patriotten : Patrioten
Puhl - (frz. poules) Hühner.
Gardinennkutsch - (frz. couche "Bett") Himmelbett.
Und so weiter setzt sich dieses fort.

Saftige Wortneuschöpfungen ja, so denke ich auch. aber bildhaft und mit
Haltung.

Uns' Wossidlo hett mal seggt, uns' Volk wier 'nen Dichter un Maler taugliek.
Natürlich: Biller brukt dei hochdütsche Schriftsprak ok heil väl ,ja, ahn
Biller kann 'ne Sprak oewerhaupt nich farrig  warden, wenn sei wat utdrücken
will, wat ut'n Verstand orre Gefäuhl ruter kümmt. Oewer wi Hochdütschen, wi
denken uns dor nicks mehr bi, wenn wi in'n Bild räden daun. Dat Volk will
sick bi allens, wat dat seggt, ok wat denken, will alls dütlich vör Ogen
seihn. Dorüm kann dat mi dei Frömwürd nich recht wat anfangen: ut Pedal makt
dat Perrdal, ut Thomasschlacke Trummelslag. Dei Akazie ward taun Afkatenbom,
un wenn 'n Daglöhner in 'ne  Apteik för vier Schilling umgewendten Napolium
föddert, denn weit so 'n richtigen mäkelbörger Pillendreiher, dat hei
unguentum Napolitanum hebben will.

Un wenn uns' Sprak noch lang' läben sall, ümmer flietig snacken, snacken, un
ümmer wedder snacken un nienich upgäwen.

Wat hollt ji denn von Knoewelsappel (Handy) un von Duwwelmaker (Kopierer)?

Von Harten mien Gräuten an alle Maaten.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/7bc99497/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 00:15:58 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:15:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.16 (08) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.171558.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (06) [DE-NDS]

Leve Jonny,

fien, dat wi op een Bredd sünd! Du hest Recht, wat solk Bispeeln as "Ick
hebb' föör 'n Tempoövertreden 'n Straofmandaot kreegen!" angeiht: schöön is
dat nich. Ik much da avers noch geern dat een orr anner Hoor spalten :-)
Schöner weer, wat Du vörsleist, orr t.B. ok: "Ik harr dat to hild, un da
hebbt s' mi opschreven." De Ünnerscheed is avers nich de twüschen "Ticket"
un "Straofmandaot", sünnern de twüschen Verbalstil un Nominalstil. Platt
snackt mehr mit Verben, un dorwegen gellt dat ok allgemeen as entspannter,
minschlicher un is beter to verstahn. Man dat heet nu nich, dat dat keen
Woort för "Geschwindigkeitsüberschreitung" geven mutt. Orr wat meenst Du?
Dat *kümmt vör*, dat een ok mal en Nomen bruken deit, un denn schull ok
Platt een praat hebben. Ik erinner good, wenn wi as Schoolkinner opfeddert
woorn, en Frömdwoort orr en Begriff to verklaarn, un anfüngen mit "Also das
ist, wenn..." "Dasistwenn gibts nicht. Sag es in einem Hauptsatz!", woorn wi
korrigeert. (Naja, wi schulln nich graad de Afsietsfalle in'n Football
verklookfiedeln :-)) Wi woorn reinweg to'n Nominalstil beropen. Ik mutt
togeven, dat dat mennigmaal hulpen hett, dat Denken to klären. Nominalstil
helpt (mi), de Begleitümstänn vun dat egentlich Meente to trennen. Man nee,
ik will hier nich dat Loff vun't Beamtendüütsch singen, üm nix in de Welt!
Verbalstil is jümmers beter -- wenn dat geiht. Man wat, wenn dat mal nich
geiht? Schall Platt mit "Das ist, wenn..." ankamen? Ik denk, 'neem dat wat
Exaktes to beteken gifft, schull dat ok mööglich ween. In Gesettbökers, in
juristische Schriften etwa. Orr wenn een partu Distanz hollen will in en
Konversaschoon orr Schriftwessel. (Distanzhollen is verlöövt op Platt, ja?) De
langen tosamensetten Nomina vun't Hoochdüütsche ("*
Frequenzbereichszuweisungsplanverordnung"*) kannst ok uteneenpusseln in
stückerwat mehr Nomina, de een denn mit "vun" un "mit" verkeden deit, as
mennig anner Spraken dat doot. Man ik much dat nich good lieden, wenn Platt
in bestimmte Situaschoonen hülplos dorstünn. Du versteihst wiss, wat ik
meen. Wat meenst Du?

Hartlich

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]
Beste Marlou,

Diin Biidrag hett mi allerbest touseggt!

Du schreyvst:

Die Suche nach einem pd. Äquivalent für "Computer" hat schon mehrere
erfreuliche Vorschläge gezeitigt, aber dennoch finde ich es völlig legitim,
auch in pd. Texten Computer "Computer" zu nennen. Vorsicht: Das Finden von
"anschaulichen", "griffigen" Äquivalenten kann die Sprache auch in die
Humor-Ecke zurückdrängen, aus der sie sich sowieso nur zaghaft raustraut!

Un' denn is door ouk noch anners watt. De düütsche Minsch kann heel best mit
de "Behörden-Spraok" ümgoahn, un' denn kaomt doar wat bii 'ruut as (Fehrs):
"Ick hebb' föör 'n Tempoövertreden 'n Straofmandaot kreegen!" Greesig! Kunn
'n wii nich bii Platt bliiven un' seggen "Ick bün tou hatt/hard foyhrt, un'
doar kreyg ick 'n (ingelsch) Ticket föör!"? Sou waard hier denn woll snackt.
"In der Kürze liegt die (plattdeutsche) Würze!"

Un' denn - schinnerhaftig tohoup-set'te Wöör as *"**
Frequenzbereichszuweisungsplanverordnung**"* (dat Woord givvt dat
waorhavvtig!!!;* *denkt maol an dennen dusseligen
"Iisenbohn...dreyer"!!)* *passt
amenn' nich mang uns Spraok - dat laot 'troust de houghdüütschen Amtslüüd
maoken, in Brüssel edders in Berlin of Hanouber.

Bii Fehrs' jemmer List' van Neologismen kriig ick faoken dat Schuddern...

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (06) [DE-NDS]

Leve Joachim,

Din Vörslag smitt för mi en Barg Fragen op (wat ja nich dat Leegste is, wat
so'n Vörslag doon kann). Wenn wi Platt as vullwertige Ümgangsspraak för all
Levensberieken opbuun wüllt, seggst Du, schallt wi us dat Platt vun de
Hansetied to'n Vörbild nehmen. Ik welk Wies? Platt weer Ümgangs- un
Geschäfftsspraak to de Tied, dat's wohr. Meenst Du dat mit dat Vörbild? Man
nee, Du snackst vun de "fuormen un begriepe". Ik much geern weten, wat Du
dormit meenst. Wat nau hett dat Platt vun dormalen, wat hüüt brukt warrt?
Woans helpt us dat över de Hürden weg, dat in't Platt vun vundaag t.B.
Wöör/Utdrück för niege Saken un Phänomene fehlt? Kann us da nich ehrder dat
Nedderländische wiederhelpen?

Wi miötet en »platdüüdske haugsprauke« to stanne bringen, wan plat for
moderne minsken bruukbar werden sol.

Ik bün geern dorbi! Man dat is en orrig grote Opgaav.

Ik fiine, dat du, Marlou, met diine websiiden daar al voruut geyst!

Upps?! Na da bill ik mi nu avers wat op in! ;-)

Hartlich!

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (03) [NDS]

Wan wi en platdüüdsk willet, dat  "auk öäwer abstraktet redden (läären)"
sol, dan müetet wi nich blaut den waardschat van de platdüüdske wiruchte
(wirgeburt, renaissance) van 18./19. jhdt., man auk de vull entwickelden
fuormen un begriepe  des

saunäumeden "middelnidderdüütsk" van de hansetiid

in blick niemen un bruuken. "Mnd." is blaut tiidlik richtig, as analogii to
Mhd., man et kennteeknet im prinsiip een un de sülwige sprauke as vandaage:
sassesk, platdüüdsk (in'm ünnerscheyd to aultsassesk). Dan et heft ninen
spraukwannel in Sassesk=Plat giewen, de met de nighaugdüütske
vokalverschuuwenge vergliikbar wöre.

Met annern wäärden:

Wi miötet en »platdüüdske haugsprauke« to stanne bringen, wan plat for
moderne minsken bruukbar werden sol. Ik fiine, dat du, Marlou, met diine
websiiden daar al voruut geyst!

Man frauget mi nich, wo dat "hauge plat" inföört werden kan ... ;-)

Goutgaun!
joachim

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/cb76e179/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 14:20:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:20:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.072026.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.16 (07) [DE-NDS]

Leev Hanning,

dat sünd wedder stückerwat Ideenstremels, de Du da antickst. Laat mal
kieken:

   1. Frömdwöör in Luden "plattmaken": Dat is en schöne Methood na dat Motto
   "Frechheit siegt". Dat frömde Woort warrt eenfach nahmen un an de
   Schrievwies un den Klang vun uns Spraak anpasst. Op't best bringt wi noch
   so'n lierlüttjen Schisslaweng vun oginaal-plattdüütsche Bildhaftigkeit in,
   so as in "Portjuchee" orr "melanklöterig", denn hebbt wi 1 a plattdüütsche
   Wöör.
   Geiht dat ok mit de Frömdwöör, de us hüüt nieg begegent? As
   Noorddüütschland dormalen vun de Franzosen besett weer, is de Spraak vundaag
   vun't Ingelsche besett. Ik kunn mi good vörstelln, dat "Team" eenfach as
   "Tiem" plattmaakt warrt. (Is ok kötter as "Mannschap".) Versöcht wi dat doch
   mal mit anner Wöör, de vundaag ut dat Ingelsche op us tokamen doot!
   2. Bildhaftigkeit: Dat is nich bloots dat "eenfache Volk", dat sik geern
   wat bildhaftig vörstelln deit; wi sünd all dat eenfache Volk. De
   Minschenbregen is even so, wi muchen opleevst Biller sehn, denn köönt wi us
   wat merken. Ok de Mnemonikers, de sik de Tall Pi op hunnert Stelln merken
   köönt usw., ok de sett för elk Ziffer en Bild, en Gegenstand, un merkt sik
   denn dat. Ganz eenfache Tricks, bi all Minschen liek. En Bild maakt
   tofreden; wenn ik en Gegendstand seh, kann ik "begriepen". Wat weern wi in
   de Physik anduernd togang mit Billers; Atommodelle to'n Opmalen,
   Wirkungsquerschnitt = en Schiev üm den Partikel rüm, Spin = da dreiht sik
   wat usw.; eentlich allens Unsinn, Spin is nix as en Quantentall, un een kann
   ganz afstrakt mi ümgahn; avers dat Bild gifft en sekeres Geföhl. Dat
   "Greifbare" an de "Begriffen" is en potentielle Starkde vun Platt! En eernst
   to nehmen Starkde, de ehr Potential noch nich ganz brukt warrt. (Plätt mal
   "Potential"!)
   3. Ganz bildhaftige Wöör as "Knoewelsappel" för "Handy": Wohrschuug! In
   Nullkommanix seht de Mobiltelefone ganz anners ut. Nix mehr Knoewel, se sünd
   lierlütte, lichte Klappsappels -- orr Klickklappsappels, orr
   Knipskassenklickklappsappels... dat geiht in't Oog.
   4. Wöör as "Duwwelmaker" för "Kopierer" sünd min Favoriten. "Duwwelmaker"
   *is *bildhaft, wat de *Funkschoon *vun dat Ding angeiht, avers leggt sik
   nich fast vunwegen dat Butere; bi Technik is dat vundaag ja an't Fleten.

Ik wull noch mehr wat seggen, avers nu bün ik to mööd. :-))

Hujahnige Gröten!

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]

...
Wahrscheinlich hatte Reuter vermutlich einen Hang zur Lautschrift.

lö grang Amperör - (frz. le grand Empereur) der große Kaiser (Napoleon).
Mußiö lö Balljif - (frz. Monsieur le Bailli) Herr Amtmann.
Pläh t'i? - (frz. plait-il? ´` ) Wie beliebt? Hier: Ist es gefällig?
Patriotten : Patrioten
Puhl - (frz. poules) Hühner.
Gardinennkutsch - (frz. couche "Bett") Himmelbett.
Und so weiter setzt sich dieses fort.

Saftige Wortneuschöpfungen ja, so denke ich auch. aber bildhaft und mit
Haltung.

Uns' Wossidlo hett mal seggt, uns' Volk wier 'nen Dichter un Maler taugliek.
Natürlich: Biller brukt dei hochdütsche Schriftsprak ok heil väl ,ja, ahn
Biller kann 'ne Sprak oewerhaupt nich farrig  warden, wenn sei wat utdrücken
will, wat ut'n Verstand orre Gefäuhl ruter kümmt. Oewer wi Hochdütschen, wi
denken uns dor nicks mehr bi, wenn wi in'n Bild räden daun. Dat Volk will
sick bi allens, wat dat seggt, ok wat denken, will alls dütlich vör Ogen
seihn. Dorüm kann dat mi dei Frömwürd nich recht wat anfangen: ut Pedal makt
dat Perrdal, ut Thomasschlacke Trummelslag. Dei Akazie ward taun Afkatenbom,
un wenn 'n Daglöhner in 'ne  Apteik för vier Schilling umgewendten Napolium
föddert, denn weit so 'n richtigen mäkelbörger Pillendreiher, dat hei
unguentum Napolitanum hebben will.

Un wenn uns' Sprak noch lang' läben sall, ümmer flietig snacken, snacken, un
ümmer wedder snacken un nienich upgäwen.

Wat hollt ji denn von Knoewelsappel (Handy) un von Duwwelmaker (Kopierer)?

Von Harten mien Gräuten an alle Maaten.

Hanne

----------

From: "Yasuji Waki" <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [EN]

Dear Friends,

I checked two German-Japanese Dictionaries which I am usually using. And I
found "resch". One of my dictionaries describes: resch ［形］ 【南独、オーストリア】
ぱりっと焼けた（パンなど）、【口語】ピチピチした（娘など）

Deutsche Uberstzung:
resch (adj) ( suddeutsch, osterreichsch) Brot fein(knuspring) gebacken,
(umgangssprachlich) knuspring(Maedchen)

Mit herzlichen Gruessen,

Yasuji Waki, uas Japan

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexikon" 2009.06.16 (08) [DE-NDS]

Leiw' Frünn'!
Ji makt mi dat tau dull,
denn' Kopp termaudbarsten ja,   (heftig nachdenken, Kopf zerbrechen)
oewer nich männig Wuurt kollt oewer't Knei bräken, dat kümmt nich an un deit
weih.

Man kann doch Wüür, de ick mi markt heff, ümschriewen, un dat gellt för
Plattdüütsch.
- Tempoövertreden (dat hürt sick gruugelich an)
- Straofmandoot (schlimm)
- dat Denken to  -klären- ?
- Begleitümstänn  (dat is Mischmasch)
- Beamtendüütsch
- Gesettbökers
- partu Distanz, Distanzhollen verlövt? Bi mi nich.
- verkeden (ji makt jug dat sworer, as't noedig is)
- hülplos
- korrigeert
Mit disse Wüür kann ick mi nich in mien' Plattdüütsch-Kring seihn laten.

Haben wir überhaupt den ganzen Reichtum dieser Sprache erkannt?

Hansetied as Vörbild ja, oewer kein trüggwarts gahn. Noch läwt uns' Sprak,
dat möt blieben, un wi möten bannig nahhelpen. Denn dat grote Drapen "10
Jahre Sprachen-Charta in Deutschland: Praxis und Perspektiven" lött Bang
upkamen. Bang, wolang uns Sprak noch uthollen kann. Un wi basteln an männig
Wüür rüm.
Wi möten scharp in taukamen Tieden kieken. Dat is binah all tau lat, later
as männig denkt. Un ob de utklamüserten niegen Wüür denn noch läben un
womoeglich all wedder anners heiten möten... dat sall mi mal verlangen.
Plattdüütsch Sprak is bannig afsackt, un wi möten tauierst wat för ehr
Wiererläben daun. Wenn ein oll Huus in sick sackt, wiel 'n tau wenig för ein
Utbätern sorgt hett, wat möckt man denn...? Ja, so is dat. Uns Sprak is as
ein Dom, ein Wiespahl, un dor möten wi ansetten.
Wenn niemodsche Dichterslüüd tau "abstrakt" schriewen, kümmt dat nich bi
all' an. De Tauhürers kieken as de Oß up'n Daler, un weiten nicksnich mit
antaufangen.
Ick heff dat in all' de Johren mit mien Schäulers (VHS) beläwt (1979 - bet
hüt), oewer nienich upgäwen.
Heute müssen wir froh sein, wenn wir für die Zukunft den plattdeutschen
Grundwortschatz retten können, ob da noch eine Qualitätssteigerung zu
erwarten ist, dat fraag ick mi. Dat is nu mal so, ob uns dat recht odder
nich recht is. Künstler möten ok mal in ein Kinnerschaul, Kinnergorden un
annerswo
ünner de Lüüd gahn, denn geiht ehr ein Lücht up, woans dat mit uns Sprak
steiht (un mal kein Euro verlangen). Dat geiht, wenn' will. Man kann nich
all'ns von "gräunen Schriwdisch" ut maken.

Wenn ein Plattfründ sick ein pd. Theaterstück anhürt, hett hei sien Freud.
Nahstens birst hei nah Huus un vertellt, dat hei wedder mal lachen künn. So
is dat doch, wenn wi
nipp nahdenken. Dat Läben schenkt uns man blot ein lütt' Lachen, dat langt
nich.
Liekers kieken sick ok Minschen pd. Tragödien an, un disse Taukiekers
verlangen wat von uns' Sprak, un dor kiegen's dat ok tau hüren.

Dat kann blotsen bäter warden, wenn de Boewelsten deiper in denn' Geldbüdel
griepen, wo sei mi männigmal tau dull mit de Euro's aasen.  De
Schaulmeisters maken dat all'  ahn Euro so bi weglang mit, dat stahn's up de
Duer nich dörch. Un dor is de Haken, an denn wi ümmer noch  bammeln. All'
dit hett mi kein Rauh nich laten, wo wi doch alltohopen uns' Plattdüütsch so
leiw' hebben un för all' Tieden hochhollen will'n.

So heff ick mi up eigen Oort 'n Kopp makt.

Von Harten.
Hanne

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (08) [DE-EN]

Lieber Joachim & Reinhard,

ich habe diese Mail erst jetzt gelesen, sonst wäre mir einiges klarer
gewesen, was Du, lieber Joachim, mit dem Hanseplatt als Vorbild meinst. Also
eine *vereinheitlichte* Hochsprache -- mit den Formen des damaligen Platt
als gemeinsamem Nenner aller heutigen Dialekte. Reinhard meint dagegen, das
kriegen wir nicht hin, die Plattsprecher wollen es nicht. Es wäre ja auch
was ganz anderes als das heutige Platt. Auch Joachim zweifelt, ob sich das
durchsetzen ließe. Uff!!! Ihr zweifelt mit Recht, meine ich. Die Leute reden
ihren Dialekt ja nicht oder nicht nur, weil sie sich von anderen abgrenzen
wollen, engstirnig sind oder ihre Ecke und ihren Tungslag für die Krone der
Schöpfung halten. Nein, sie reden ihren Dialekt, weil sie ihn *lieben*!
Genau diesen Dialekt lieben sie. Außer Gefühlen gibt es heute überhaupt
keinen Grund mehr, Platt zu reden. Die Gefühle müssen wir respektieren und
hochhalten, diese Gefühle sind unser Kapital, mit dem wir für Platt etwas
tun (können). Sonst lassen wir alle Plattsprecher da stehen, wo sie
sind, und gehen zu einer Hochsprache ohne Sprecher/innen. Wohl bekomms.

Mein Vorschlag: Wenn wir eine plattdeutsche Hochsprache etablieren wollen,
machen wir sowieso was ganz Neues. Oder etwas ziemlich Neues. Mit Ivrit
wurde es schon mal gemacht, aber da gab es meines Laienwissens keine noch
lebendige Dialektvielfalt, sondern nur eine gut konservierte einheitliche
Ursprache, die aufgepeppt werden musste. Also machen wir was Neues, ja?
Warum dann nicht etwas *ganz* Neues: Endlich mal weg von der "Spurbreite 1"
bei der Vereinheitlichung! Endlich weg von "nur 1 Wort oder Form oder
Schreibweise ist richtig!" Reinhard hat eine wunderbare Formulierung dafür
geliefert:

"create a single standard *variety*".

Die Hervorhebung ist natürlich von mir. -- Eine Standardvielfalt also. Der
Ausdruck bezaubert mich richtig. Die ganzen genormten Dudenköppe würden das
vielleicht als Widerspruch in sich bezeichnen, aber was macht das schon?
Diese Vielfalt müsste weit gefasst werden. Sie müsste alle gängigen Dialekte
umfassen, und alle wären *richtig*. Sie müssten so geschrieben werden, dass
sie untereinander verständlich sind, also dass die Sprecherin des einen
Dialekts Texte eines Sprechers des anderen Dialekts lesen und verstehen
kann. Antworten tut sie dann in ihrem eigenen Dialekt. Wenn jede/r den
eigenen Dialekt respektiert weiß, kann er auch den Dialekt des anderen
gelten lassen. Und alle gemeinsam wären *Plattdeutsch*. --  Ist es
schwierig, so ein Schreibsystem zu entwickeln? Ich bin mit dem Norwegischen
nicht vertraut. Welche Werkzeuge braucht man denn da? Jedenfalls muss der
Klang der Wörter im jeweiligen Dialekt in der Schreibung erkennbar sein,
meine ich.

Die Sprecher des Plattdeutschen müssten dann an passiven Sprachkenntnissen
mehr aufwenden, da sie alle anderen Dialekte verstehen müssten. Aber das ist
ihnen zuzumuten, denn Plattsprecher sind heute sowieso Leute, die bereit
sind, eine sprachliche Extraleistung zu erbringen. Diese "Standardvielfalt"
ist eine unnachahmliche Stärke des Plattdeutschen, ein Sympathieträger und
ein Alleinstellungsmerkmal. Wenn ich meine Phantasie laufen lasse, könnte
der Begriff die gängigen Fallbeil-Definitionen von "richtig" und "falsch",
von "wir" und "die anderen" über den Haufen werfen, überall als Vorbild
dienen, Grenzen aufweichen und insgesamt die Welt retten :-)) Obama kann
sich pensionieren lassen, wenn wir mit unserer Standardvielfalt kommen!

Auf Plattpartu machen wir übrigens nichts anderes. Also nicht die Welt
retten (das auch), sondern alle Dialekte gleichrangig nebeneinander und
miteinander kommunizieren lassen. Jeder schreibt nach seinem Schnabel,
korrigieren tun wir nur offensichtliche Tippfehler (und, ja, grobe
Hochdeutschizismen). Ich persönlich liebe alle Dialekte, auch das
Westfälische mit seinen unglaublichen Vokalen und das Mecklenburgische mit
seiner ganz anderen Grammatik. Mein eigenes Platt ist ein Dialektmischmasch,
also was soll ich Puristin sein?!

Uff, jetzt langts aber mit den langen Mails! Liebe Grüße!

Marlou

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/1e26130c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 14:09:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:09:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.070933.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Enjoy the privilege of Low Saxon ;-):

http://www.rp-online.de/public/article/beruf/ratgeber/720561/Auf-Platt-beleidigt-Kuendigung-ueberzogen.html

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at -online.de>
Subject: Lüüd'snack

So kann't kamen ...

*Antworten auf neugierige Fragen.*
**
(Kleine Auswahl)
"Wat gifft 't hüüt to Middag?" Wat up 'n Disch kümmt. - Wat schön smeckt un
nicks kost't. - Hüüt gifft 't gor nicks, un dat ward upwarmt. - Kösst, Kroom
un drög' Brot - sünd dree Gerichte. -
Röben Röben, wer dee nich mag, kann töben.

"Wat is dat?" Dat is 'n Ding mit 'n duwwelten Snepper, mit 'n Zisslawäng.

"Wat sall dat warden?" Dat sall 'ne Klink warden vör 't Höhnernest; 'n
Handgriff an de Essigbuddel; 'n Himphamp för Großmudder ehr Bedd. - Dat sall
'n Ding warden, wo de Buer de Eier ut süppt.

"Wennihr wir dat?" Anno Toback; Anno Kruk, as 't noch keen Buddels gew. -
Achteinhunnert un Kringelstrümp, as de Oss up'n Boom set. - Drütteihnhunnert
un knuppen, as de Maikäwers noch Krempstäwel drögen. - As Düüwels Großmutter
noch Jumfer wir.

"Wat krieg' ick to Wiehnachten?"  Wat du vörig Johr krägen hest (nicks). -
'ne Prük mit Zägenhoor. - Kallbatschensupp un 'n bäten barken Ries.

"Wennihr krieg' ick dat?" Anner Woch Klock dree. - Wenn de Hahn Eier leggt.
- Wenn de Kreihgen witt warden - grisen dons s' all. -
Pingstmandag, wenn de Gös' up 'n Ies danzen.

Asche pack in de Mark is ut.

Nahdenkern is't woll, man ok hoeglich.

Best' Gräuten.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/98f75a78/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 20:53:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:53:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.135335.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at -online.de <mailto:HanneHinz at -online.de>>

> "Wennihr wir dat?" Anno Toback; Anno Kruk, as 't noch keen Buddels gew.
>

Ik heff jüst nülich över en Utdruck nadacht: "as X noch keen Mood
weer/weren". Warrt in jüst so Utdrück bruukt as "Anno Kruk, as Buddels noch
keen Mood weren". Kennt ji den Utdruck in joon Dialekten ok? Kennt ji noch
annere "noch keen Mood weren"-Utdrück?

Marcus Buck

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/99675c36/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 21:21:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:21:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (05) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.142111.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

 Leev Hanne,

ja, mit de Qualität vun uns' Platt is dat nich jümmers to'n Besten bestellt,
avers wi arbeit' an :-) Dorwegen snackt wi ja över niege Wöör. "Man kann
doch ümschrieven": Ümschrieven geiht mehrstendeels, avers is nich jümmers,
wat een will. Mennigmaal will ik nau düt stracks un direkt seggen. Denn bruk
ik en Woort. Dat ik faken nich dat Rechte faatkriegen do, steiht op'n anner
Blatt. Strack un direkt ween is ja ok in'n Charakter vun Platt. Man ik
glööv, wi dreiht us meddewiel in'n Kring, Du hest sachs Recht, wi hebbt us
den Bregen küselig över snackt.

Mit "Distanzhollen" heff ik, blangenbi, nich dat Woort, sünnern den Sinn
meent. Gifft ja Lü, de op Platt keen Distanz düllen wüllt un mit alle Welt
kumpelig un per Du sünd usw. De Typen, de di mit'n Ellbagen anstupst, wenn
se di man jüst 5 Minuten kennt. Ok dorto schull dat Alternativen op Platt
geven. Un Du büst nich so een! :-)

Knuddels!

Marlou


From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexikon" 2009.06.16 (08) [DE-NDS]

...

Man kann doch Wüür, de ick mi markt heff, ümschriewen, un dat gellt för
Plattdüütsch.
- Tempoövertreden (dat hürt sick gruugelich an)
- Straofmandoot (schlimm)
- dat Denken to  -klären- ?
- Begleitümstänn  (dat is Mischmasch)
- Beamtendüütsch
- Gesettbökers
- partu Distanz, Distanzhollen verlövt? Bi mi nich.
- verkeden (ji makt jug dat sworer, as't noedig is)
- hülplos
- korrigeert
Mit disse Wüür kann ick mi nich in mien' Plattdüütsch-Kring seihn laten.


----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

>
> Die Leute reden ihren Dialekt ja nicht oder nicht nur, weil sie sich von
> anderen abgrenzen wollen, engstirnig sind oder ihre Ecke und ihren Tungslag
> für die Krone der Schöpfung halten. Nein, sie reden ihren Dialekt, weil sie
> ihn /*lieben*/! Genau diesen Dialekt lieben sie. Außer Gefühlen gibt es
> heute überhaupt keinen Grund mehr, Platt zu reden.
>

Also dat mag ik nu ganz gewiss nich so stahn laten. Dat gifft vondaag jümmer
noch en poor hunnertdusend Lüüd, de Platt as Mudderspraak snackt. De in de
Spraak mehr tohuus sünd, de al jemehr Leven lang Platt snackt hebbt. För de
Hoochdüütsch jümmer en Tweetspraak bleven is. (Een, de se temlich good
köönt, aver de man nich ganz so licht von de Tung geiht as jemehr
Moderspraak.) Dat sünd normalerwies allens eenfache Lüüd. Buurn, Handwarker,
Arbeiders. Lüüd, de mit jemehrn Kopp arbeiden doot, för de is Spraak jümmer
mit Prestige verbunnen. 'Keen in de Wetenschop, in't Büro etc. wat gellen
will, de mutt önnig Hoochdüütsch snacken könen, mutt de Spraak so deep in
sien Kopp rinkriegen, dat he ehr jüstso good kann as sien Mudderspraak.
Disse Soort Lüüd, de mit'n Kopp arbeiden doot, finnt faken in't Öller wedder
trüch to de Moderspraak, wenn se in Rente sünd, wenn dat Prestige in'n
Beroop nich mehr wichtig is. Denn warrt opmal Geföhlen wedder wichtig. De
Warms von de ole Mudderspraak. För en Buur oder en Discher bedüüdt Spraak
keen Prestige. En Fischer oder een, de bi VW schweißt, de köönt jemehr
Arbeid good doon un bruukt dor keen Woord för snacken. Hoochdüütsch blifft
denn faken reine Tweetspraak, de blot ruthaalt warrt, wenn't nödig is. Un
blot so lang as't nödig is. Wenn de denn oold un in Rente sünd, denn doot de
nix wedder opdecken. Denn jemehr Mudderspraak weer ja nie todeckt.

Plattdüütsche Schrievers un plattdüütsche Spraakredders höört faken to de
Kopplüüd in Rente. De Handlüüd, de faken dat weniger verhoochdüütschte Platt
snackt, sünd mehr still. De hebbt jemehr Mudderspraak ok geern un föhlt ok
de Warms von de Spraak, aver hebbt keen Ambitionen/keen Kraft 500 Johr
Ünnerdrückung wedder to dreihn.

Disse Lüüd hebbt also en goden Grund Platt to snacken, de nix mit Geföhlen
to doon hett. De Grund is rein pragmatisch. Dat is jemehr Mudderspraak. De
Spraak, de ut een rutspruddelt, över de een nich nadenken mutt.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

Leiw Marlou,

mit dien Ideen-Strämels hest du mi bannig verfiert.

Fröm'wüür lut plattmaken, dat is för de Katt. Woans stellst du di dat vör.
Portmanee (Portemonnaie), Syn Portjuchhee, Geldbüdel, Geldtasch, Geldkatt,
Knipptasch, Spez. gut gefülltes Portemonnaie, 'ne dick Marie, Bertha.
Dat Wuurt Portjuchhee is je mihr 'n Ökelwuurt, up dit Wuurt kann man sick
doch nich fastleggen. Platt sall doch ut dien Sicht Charakter beholln, un nu
dit;
melanklüt(e)rig (melancholisch) Syn. deepsinnig, swormäudig. Du kannst doch
nich dien vörslagen Wüür in ein "Uniform" kleeden. Wo bliwwt denn de
Frieheit för de välen un schön'n Wüür, de wi noch so up Lager hebben. Wi
sneeren uns Sprak denn' Hals  un sünd doch so giern ünner de Näs' gaut tau
Faut (lebhaft und wortreich plaudern).
Mien leiw un klauke Marlou, wist du denn all' de noch begäng' plattdüütschen
Wüür an'n Maand scheiten. - Ingelsch bliwwt liekers ein Weltsprak.

Perfesser Dr. Renate Herrmann-Winter hett sick all in ehr Wüürbauk nah dien
uthäkte Method richt. Dor sünd sick hüt noch nich all' einig. Liekers sei
hett up ehr Oort 'n Weg funn'. Oewer de mihrsten Schriewers bliewen bi ehr
eigen Schriewoort. Dor möten wi noch oewer einen groten Barg henwegkamen.
Oewer mi dücht, wi möten in't Ierst woll bargdal krupen.
Team/Tiem, dat is doch nich noedig, nahkieken. Bether hett dat ümmer  för
all' Oort Gruppen Crew (Kru) heiten.Denn künn man je glieksen Ingelsch
lihren. Man is je all up dat dreisprakig Lihren (Kinnergorden) kamen. Dor
künn dat je ne Oort von "Eselsbrücke" sien.

Marlou,  du stellst je rein de Plattdüütsch Spraak up'n Kopp. Bliew mal up
de Ierd. Ick bün wohrraftig för niegen Kram, oewer disse Oewermaud haugt mi
üm. (Hest du di 'n Lütten ut de Dackrönn tau Bost nahmen... ) Uns pl.
Spraken hebben sick je all unvermaudens bäten vermengeliert.
Segg mal, woans stellst du di denn' Oewergang vör. Dat künn tautied  dat
Afsacken
noch deiper dükern. Wi möten ierst mal uphalen, wat anner (boewelste)  Lüüd'
tau licht nahmen hebben.
Töw man ierst denn' "Sonderdruck" von INS af, dor stahn all' de Bidräg' von
dat grote Drapen (10 Jahre Sprachen-Charta in Deutschland: Praxis und
Perspektiven) in. Dat hebben sick je ok noch anner Experten 'n groten Kopp
makt, un dor  sünd kein olle Kamellen bi rutkamen.
Oh, jüst telefoniert Molli von dat Eiland Rügen mit mi. Wi sünd in't
Vertellen kam', ok oewer dat, wat ick hier in de Mak heff, dunn säd sei
"..... was gewachsen ist soll man nicht mähen". Wi kenn uns all tämlich lang
un hebben in Berlin studeert.
So, nu is mi de Pust utgahn. Un ick heff 'n groten Knast (Hunger) up
Abendköst.

Nu möt ick di woll knuddeln.

Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Leve Lüüd',

'n Apenen Sinn bi't Woord-Maken mutt sien. Spaaß mutt ook sien. Man bloots
Ökelwöör un annern Spijökenkraam mutt nich sien, dücht mi.

Worüm nich simplemang "Kopeermaschien" so as in meist de mehrsten Spraken?
Worüm Frömdwöör ruutsmieten, de al allerwägens gellen doot, un de Hüün un
Perdüün al verstaht? Worüm partu "exotische Plattwöör rein platt"?

Dat gifft al so noch vääl to vääl Minschen, de "Platt" as 'n Slag "party
joke" ankieken doot, as "drollig", as "unbeholfen", as "urig". Dat bedüüdt,
dat se ähr nich för vull nähmen doot.

As ik al sä, Spaaß mutt sien (sä de Düvel un kittel sien Grootmoder mit de
Messfork). Man mi dücht, dat 't 'n groot Verschääl gifft twüschen "an de
Spraak Spaaß hebben" un "mit de Spraak Spaaß maken". Wi kaamt ook ahn
appeldwatschen Spijœkenkraam un Ökelee to Schick. Ökelwöör maakt de Minschen
sik al so.

Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/fb958815/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 20:51:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:51:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.17 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.135144.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

 Many of you may have read it already, I just found it:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/boroditsky09/boroditsky09_index.html

Some interesting things here. Enjoy!

Marlou

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/3add160d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 16:53:02 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:53:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.18 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.095302.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (04) [NDS]

 Beste Marcus,

Du schreyvst:
"Kennt ji den Utdruck in joon Dialekten ok? Kennt ji noch annere "noch keen
Mood weren"-Utdrück?"

Miin schoyne Jung - in Platt kenn 'ck nich een enkelten ""Uut-Druck"" {=
'Ausdruck'; ergo nach Gutenberg!]! Man - ick kenn woll Snacks as 'al'ns
neymoodschen [neumodern'n] Kraom".


Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/ac0653ef/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 16:54:51 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:54:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.18 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.095451.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

Beste Marlou,

You wrote:

 Many of you may have read it already, I just found it:
 
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/boroditsky09/boroditsky09_index.html


Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Boroditsky delivers some hard
evidence. Truly loved the article. That superb proto-gps-format of the Kuuk
Thaayorre world definitely left me in awe. I can almost relate to this,
everything and everybody gets geo-tagged in my own world too. There's always
a map up there in my head ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/416f4bb4/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 17:00:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:00:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.18 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.100024.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: Etymology

Ik befaat mi jüst en beten mit de Etymologie von plattdüütsche Wöör. Dor
heff ik en poor Wöör, bi de ik nich wiederkaam. Villicht weet ji ja wat
dorto. Dat sünd de Wöör:

- oostfreesch 'Kuntrei': Kummt dat von engelsch 'country' oder von
franzöösch 'contrée'? Warrt dat op de eerste oder de twete Sülv betoont? Un
is dat 'Kunträi' oder 'Kuntrai'?
- 'feddern' (hoochdüütsch 'fordern'): mnd. weer dat 'vörderen', schall von
dat Woord 'vörder' as in 'Vördersied' kamen. Nu hett 'feddern' (in uns
Dialekt 'fe'ern' mit rutfullen 'dd') aver keen 'ö'. Dat hett en 'e'. En
Luudwannel von 'ö' na 'e' is keen grote Saak. In Pommern un Oostprüßen weer
dat to'n Bispeel ganz normal. Aver in uns Dialekt geiht de Trend jüst
annersrüm, mehr von 'e' na 'ö'. Un denn is dor noch dat wegfullen 'r'. Ik
kenn ans keeneen Woord bi dat eerst 'erd' to 'edd' worrn is (dor bün ik mi
al unseker, ob dat dat överhaupt gifft), un denn dat 'dd' ok noch rutfullen
is. Na de Luudgesetten kann ik mi dor keen Riem op maken. Villicht hett een
von jo Ideen, wo dat Woord to verkloren is. Warrt annerwegens ok 'feddern'
seggt, oder gifft dat dor noch annere Utspraken/Schrievwiesen/Wöör?
- dat drüdde sünd de Wöör 'Feudel' un 'Leuwagen', de as "typisch
norddeutsche" Wöör populär sünd. 'Leuwagen' warrt bi uns nich seggt, aver wi
seggt in uns Platt ok 'Feuel' un 'feueln'. Mien Problem is nu dat 'eu'. So'n
'oi' gifft dat ans nich in dat Luudinventar von uns Dialekt. In't Ole Land
seggt se ja to'n Bispeel 'Koinig' för 'König', aver bi uns is dat 'Köinig'.
'Feuel' mutt also noch relativ jung wesen un kummt nich ut uns Dialekt. Hett
dor een en Idee, wat dor de ursprüngliche Toon weer? (Ok in 'Leuwagen')
- un denn heff ik versöcht, ut de Luudstruktur un de Luudwannels klook to
warrn, de bi de Woordreeg "draihn/saihn/waihn/maihn/naihn/xxx" (ik heff dat
mal mit 'ai' schreven, dat de Klang ok rutkummt, mehrsttieds warrt ans ja
'ei' schreven. ["xxx" steiht för "blähen", wat dat op Platt nich gifft,
sowied ik dat weet. wat seggt de Plattdüütsche egentlich to "geblähte
Segel"?]) passeert sünd. Hoochdüütsch
"drehen/säen/wehen/mähen/nähen/blähen", Ooldsassisch weer dat
"thrâian/sâian/wâian/mâian/nâian/xxx", Engelsch is dat
"throw/sow/xxx/mow/xxx/blow", Nedderlandsch
"draaien/zaaien/waaien/maaien/naaien/xxx". Mien eerste Fraag: sünd de
ooldsassischen Formen germaansche jan-Verben oder höört dat 'i' to'n Stamm?
Un mien twete Fraag: Hebbt all plattdüütsche Dialekten den 'ai'-Klang in
disse Wöör oder gifft dat ok Dialekten mit en 'ä'-Klang oder noch en annern
Klang?

Dat eerstmal.
Besten Dank
Marcus Buck

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/495d08fe/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 16:57:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:57:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.18 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.095740.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (05) [NDS]

 Leev Hanne,

kaam dal vun de Palme! Ik maak doch nix as luut nadenken över
*Din*Henwiesen. Du hest en List maakt, wa Reuter franzöösche Frömdwöör
plattmaakt
hett. Na Luden. Dat is de Methood, de ik diskereert heff. Bi Reuter harrst
Du nix dagegen, hm? Vun Fru Hermann-Winter weet ik nix af. Ik stell Platt ok
nich op'n Kopp, dat steiht doch gor nich in min Macht. Plattmaakte niege
Wöör sünd ok nich alternativlose Vörschrift, i wo. Du kümmst nich in't
Kaschott, wenn Du lever Knipp staats Portjuchee seggst. Liekso smittst Du mi
ja ok nich in'n Knast, wenn ik nich Reuter sin plattmaaktes Franzöösch bruk,
sünnern dat anners segg, nich?

Also keen Panik nich! Wi denkt ja bloots luut na. Mit dat, wat wi hier
utprobeert, verännert wi veel weniger, as wi geern harrn.

Hartlich Knuddels un slaap ruhig!

Marlou


 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

Leiw Marlou,

mit dien Ideen-Strämels hest du mi bannig verfiert.

Fröm'wüür lut plattmaken, dat is för de Katt. Woans stellst du di dat vör.
Portmanee (Portemonnaie), Syn Portjuchhee, Geldbüdel, Geldtasch, Geldkatt,
Knipptasch, Spez. gut gefülltes Portemonnaie, 'ne dick Marie, Bertha.
Dat Wuurt Portjuchhee is je mihr 'n Ökelwuurt, up dit Wuurt kann man sick
doch nich fastleggen. Platt sall doch ut dien Sicht Charakter beholln, un nu
dit;
melanklüt(e)rig (melancholisch) Syn. deepsinnig, swormäudig. Du kannst doch
nich dien vörslagen Wüür in ein "Uniform" kleeden. Wo bliwwt denn de
Frieheit för de välen un schön'n Wüür, de wi noch so up Lager hebben. Wi
sneeren uns Sprak denn' Hals  un sünd doch so giern ünner de Näs' gaut tau
Faut (lebhaft und wortreich plaudern).
Mien leiw un klauke Marlou, wist du denn all' de noch begäng' plattdüütschen
Wüür an'n Maand scheiten. - Ingelsch bliwwt liekers ein Weltsprak.

Perfesser Dr. Renate Herrmann-Winter hett sick all in ehr Wüürbauk nah dien
uthäkte Method richt. Dor sünd sick hüt noch nich all' einig. Liekers sei
hett up ehr Oort 'n Weg funn'. Oewer de mihrsten Schriewers bliewen bi ehr
eigen Schriewoort. Dor möten wi noch oewer einen groten Barg henwegkamen.
Oewer mi dücht, wi möten in't Ierst woll bargdal krupen.
Team/Tiem, dat is doch nich noedig, nahkieken. Bether hett dat ümmer  för
all' Oort Gruppen Crew (Kru) heiten.Denn künn man je glieksen Ingelsch
lihren. Man is je all up dat dreisprakig Lihren (Kinnergorden) kamen. Dor
künn dat je ne Oort von "Eselsbrücke" sien.

Marlou,  du stellst je rein de Plattdüütsch Spraak up'n Kopp. Bliew mal up
de Ierd. Ick bün wohrraftig för niegen Kram, oewer disse Oewermaud haugt mi
üm. (Hest du di 'n Lütten ut de Dackrönn tau Bost nahmen... ) Uns pl.
Spraken hebben sick je all unvermaudens bäten vermengeliert.
Segg mal, woans stellst du di denn' Oewergang vör. Dat künn tautied  dat
Afsacken
noch deiper dükern. Wi möten ierst mal uphalen, wat anner (boewelste)  Lüüd'
tau licht nahmen hebben.
Töw man ierst denn' "Sonderdruck" von INS af, dor stahn all' de Bidräg' von
dat grote Drapen (10 Jahre Sprachen-Charta in Deutschland: Praxis und
Perspektiven) in. Dat hebben sick je ok noch anner Experten 'n groten Kopp
makt, un dor  sünd kein olle Kamellen bi rutkamen.
Oh, jüst telefoniert Molli von dat Eiland Rügen mit mi. Wi sünd in't
Vertellen kam', ok oewer dat, wat ick hier in de Mak heff, dunn säd sei
"..... was gewachsen ist soll man nicht mähen". Wi kenn uns all tämlich lang
un hebben in Berlin studeert.
So, nu is mi de Pust utgahn. Un ick heff 'n groten Knast (Hunger) up
Abendköst.

Nu möt ick di woll knuddeln.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/3c805d5f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 19:16:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:16:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.18 (04) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.121644.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.18 (05) [NDS-DE]
                                - Textcodeerung: Unicode (utf-8) -

Hello Lowlanders,

I regard the debate of the last days under "Lexikon" (on the possibility of
an united Low German orthography and - possibly - middel-language) as very
important for the future of Low Germen or not. So I made here a rather long
intervention to it. I don't expect that you others read it (you may, if you
understand). I made it in Westphalian, because I find, that over Low German
one should be able to discus in this language, too.

But it is mainly of interest for us Low German fans. So please excuse.
Goutgaun!

BTW, I let it under "Lexicon", because it come from that thread. But it
rather needed another "matter" as "orthography" or "language contruction".

***

Leywe Marlou, Jonny, Hannelore, Ron & andeelniemers,

Am 17.06.2009 um 02:15 schraif Marlou Lessing <marless at gmx.de>:

> seggst Du [Joachim},schallt wi us dat Platt vun de Hansetied to'n Vörbild
>> nehmen. Ik welk Wies? Platt weer Ümgangs- un Geschäfftsspraak to de Tied,
>> dat's wohr. Meenst Du dat mit dat Vörbild?
>>
>
Jau, nich dat ik meende, dat sik plat as beroups- un hannelssprauke sa baule
dürsetten laute, man et mot mügelk siin, auk ökonoumske, kulturelle vorgänge
un jedwedde kumpelseerte saakverhault uuttodrücken. Torre tiid van de Hanse
was dat wual mügelk. Wisse nich van alle lüüde, sündern blaut van beldeden
un schriiwerlüüde, man dat hadde niks met de sprauke an sik to doun.

 Man nee, Du snackst vun de "fuormen un begriepe". Ik much geern weten, wat
>> Du dormit meenst.
>>
>
I. fuormen, "Formen":

Met »fuormen« meene ik t. b. 4 fälle in der dinkwaard-buugenge
(substantiv-flexion), den optativ van de doun-wäärde (verben), un andere
grammatiske fuormen, de et in der hanse-sassesk gaf, in mangen tungensliägen
auk na in'm 19. jhdt., man in dem privat-/geliegenheydsplatt van
hüütigesdaages un den meysten goudmenden lütken platstücksken nich mehr.

De 3. fall (wem-fal, dativ) gift et in viele platte tunensliäge jümmers na,
tominnest in'm Westfäälsk van' 20. jhdt. Allerdinks: in den meysten regionen
brukeden se wual de dativ-fuorm van den dinkwaard, man liikers met den
afsliepenen artikel "den" stat met'm middelnidderdüüdsken (korten) "dem,
deme". Wan dat nich echte platt lantlüüe (de wual baule uutstuorwen sint)
maaket, sündern lüüe as du un ik, dan kümt mi dat wat künstlik vor: as wan
me weeniger beldede lüüde van'm lande öüwt, de in de grammatik nich firm
sint un den dativ nich kennet. Jau, dat maaket me faaken auk in
standard-düüdsk.

För den aldag is mi dat ja gliiks, man wan't ümme kumpelseertere sakverhaule
geyt, wiärket dat wat hinderliken.

De wes-fal (genetiv) is nich unersätlik un deswiegen auk nich unerlätlik, as
me an'm Nidderlansken süt. De van+dativ-ümmeschriivenge döüt et auk. Awers:
de middelnidderdüüdske genetiv is auk en kultur-iärwe, warümme sal me sik
dessen nich bedeenen? (Un de reste as in »'s nachtens«, »daages-tiid« etc.
sint je na al wiithen gebröüklik. - Et gift en alsau, den wes-fal.)

II. begriepe, "Begriffe", wäärdeschat, "Wortschatz":

 Wat nau hett dat Platt vun dormalen, wat hüüt brukt warrt? Woans helpt us
>> dat över de Hürden weg, dat in't Platt vun vundaag t.B. Wöör/Utdrück för
>> niege Saken un Phänomene fehlt? Kann us da nich ehrder dat Nedderländische
>> wiederhelpen?
>>
>
Jümmers, wan ik en begriepe up plat nich weete, un t. b. auk bi SASS,
Hermann-Winter etc. niks passendet un gefälliget fiine, kiik ik:

1. in Klöntrup siin Niederdeutsch-Westphälisches Wörterbuch (1824), dat
langt meestig; wan ik dar nich fündig werde,

2. in Lübben siin "Mittelniederdeutsches Handwörterbuch" un noutfals auch

3. bi Schiller-Lübben of in'n herkumpst-wäärdebouk (etmologii-diktionäär)
nau.

4. jau, auk in'n nidderländsken diksionäär laut sik faaken wat fiinen, dat
me inföören kan.

In aller regel häwwe ik dan en platdüüdsken begriepe fuunen, de mi saklik an
e miäten un plat noug to siin schint, of tominnest gouet ruwfoor (Rohfutter,
-material) met dem ik en nigwaard (neologismus) maaken kan.

Awers ik hewwe partu nin problem, auk heele früömdwäärde, tomals wan se al
in'n fakliken of weetenskepliken spraukgebruuk sind, intosetten of
uuttolainen un to verplatten, as Marlou dat met biispellen upteeket.

Dat mende ik met "begriepe" uut dem plat van ölderen tiiden: den wäärdeschat
van niddersüütsk as »haugsprauke«, wan se noch sprauke van de meysten, auk
de belleden volksklassen was.

III. schriifwiis (orthografii)

Am 17.06.2009 um 16:20 schraif Marlou Lessing:

> Mein Vorschlag: Wenn wir eine plattdeutsche Hochsprache etablieren wollen,
>> ... Warum dann nicht etwas ganzNeues: ...
>> Reinhard hat eine wunderbare Formulierung dafür geliefert:
>>
>> "create a single standard variety".
>>
>> Die Hervorhebung ist natürlich von mir. -- Eine Standardvielfalt also. ...
>> Diese Vielfalt müsste weit gefasst werden. Sie müsste alle gängigen
>> Dialekte umfassen, und alle wärenrichtig. Sie müssten so geschrieben werden,
>> dass sie untereinander verständlich sind, also dass die Sprecherin des einen
>> Dialekts Texte eines Sprechers des anderen Dialekts lesen und verstehen
>> kann. Antworten tut sie dann in ihrem eigenen Dialekt. Wenn jede/r den
>> eigenen Dialekt respektiert weiß, kann er auch den Dialekt des anderen
>> gelten lassen. Und alle gemeinsam wären Plattdeutsch. --  Ist es schwierig,
>> so ein Schreibsystem zu entwickeln?
>>
>
An sik is dat nich alsto swaar, 'ne eynheytlike schriifwiis for sassesk
uptostellen, tominnest nich, wan me de in Noord-Düüdsklant gebröuklike
beteeung van boukstaawen un luuten (grafeem-foneem-entspriäkunge)  uutgeyt.
Dat enkelste probleem is, dat de regeln van Johann Saß un de Fehrs-Gilde dar
partu nich for duuget, de aawers in'n Noordsassesken beriik al wiithen
anerkant sint un befolget werdet.

De wichtigsten regeln sint:

1. Klaare ünnerscheydenge van langen un korten sülwen:

- lange sülwen werdet dür verduwwelunk van den monophthong liiketeyknet »ii,
ää, aa, ee,  öö, oo, uu, üü« (wan't nin diphthong enthaulet, waar sik dat
erüäwrigt).

Dat schriiwen van »ii« for lank-i is darvan dat allerwichtigste un de
(haugdüüdske) ie-schriiwenge möste tabu siin for plattschriiwers, wiils
anners de (westfäälske) briäkengs-diphthong [IPA: 'iə, ɪ'e, ɪ'ɛ] nich
vernünftig schriewen werden kan! (Jau, jau, Marlou un de meysten, dat
süöllet ji juu man klaar maken, dat juue hierhaalte ie-schriifwiis for
lank-i 'ne ständige attacke up bedüüdende twigge van plat-kultur is!!! ;-)

- korte sülwen werdet met eynfaken vokaal-boukstaawen schriewen, naufolgende
metluut-verduwwelung is nich nöüdig! (Schaaet aawers meystig auk nich).

2. Eyndüüdige ünnerscheedunge van a-i- und e-i-diphthong.

- a-i-diphthong mot jümmers »ai« schriewen werden (of »ay«),

- e-i-diphthong kan »ey« (wat ik tor tiit am sinnigsten fiine), of »eei« of
»ee« (<- dat is dan nich van lang-e ünnerscheeden), awers auk, as meystig
in'm Mnd. »ei« schriewen werden. In lesderen fal mot me de an't haugdüüdske
"ei"=ai darop henwiisen.

3. For de anneren tweyluute nimt me jümmers de beyden (of mehr)
vokalbaukstaawen, de den klankbougen am ehrsten un besten daarstellen.

------------------------
Exkurs: "Briämer schriifwiis", "Bremer Schreibung"

(sü »Niederdeutsche Grammatik« van Lindow, Möhn, Niebaum, Stellmacher,
Taubken u. Wirrer.
1. Auflage Leer 1998 = Schriften des Instituts für niederdeutsche Sprache,
Dokumentation Nr. 20),
S. 36-42)

Tofällig bin ik nu wier darup stöt. De buawen nöümden gruntregeln un na en
paar mehr häwwet de düsse wiithen anerkanten geläärden van spaukweetenskepen
üäwer Sassesk al 1998 upschriewen.

Dat daarmet verfolgede teel is: tungensliäge wier _lernbar_ un üäwerregional
lesbar to maken!

De buawen nöümden höüft-regeln hadde ik mi al lange to eegen maket un al
vergieten, waar ik dat her hadde.

Aawers: De tosätlik van den professors vorslaune diakritisken teeken fiine
ik na nich der wiisheyt lesden sluot. De regelunge for de kenteeknunge

- van uapene vokalen met daarunner-setteden komma of "Häkchen":
/ę/ for [ɛ,æ], /ǫ/ for [ɔ], /ö̜/ for [œ,ɶ]

- un den drunnersetteden pünt/Punkt torre kenteeknunge van den e- un
a-schwa:
/e̩/ for [ə], /ạ/ for [ɐ, ɤ]

haule ik unner normale ümmestände (schriifmaschiin, computer) nich for
praktikabel.
(Daar weete ik auk na nine löüsunge för, afseen van verbale verklaaringe, wo
en vokal in'n bestimten kontext uutspruoken werd.)

Man liikers haule ik de "Bremer Schreibung" for en goude uutganks-basis for
'ne gemeensame schriifwiis for alle platdüüdsken tungensliäge. - Dat gilt
tominnest for alle platen wiisen in Düüdsklant.

De Nidderländer un Flaamen u. a. werdet sik daarbi swaarer doun, wiil dat
met eere wuonde nederlandiske orthografie nich konform geyt.

Half to düt kapittel hört na en gedankensplitter, de mi manges kümt, wan ik
noordsasseske texten liäse un  üäwer dat half-haugsdüüdske
(half-hauchdütsche) »sch« stolpere (schal stats sal, akschon stats aksjon un
hunnert annere wäärde). Jümmers kümt mi dan de assotsiatsjoon
(assoschatschon) "Scheiße" un "Asch(e)" in'n sin. Ik kan un wil ju nu nich
dat heyl schäunere westfääske un freyske »sk« updrängen. Vellichte konne
daar aawers en torügge to de in mnd. texten faaken to fiinende
»sc«-scriiwenge nütten. D. h., dat dat »c« for de eenen (van mehr
konservative tungenslag) for »s-ch, sg, sk« steyn [sχoul, -isk/-esk, sχal,
sχulden], för de annern aawers as in hd. "sch". Aawers dat blaut bilänks,
häärde auk wual mehr in dat naigste kapittel.

IV. Eenheytlike schriftsprauke Sassesk as dacksprauke?

As ik miine annern breewe darto schriewen hewwe, waar mi dat na nich sau
klar, of ik blaut 'ne gemeensame schriifwiis ofte auk 'ne gemeynsame
schriftsprauke wol. Nau den inwenden van di, Marlou, hewwe ik daar wier
üäwer simmeleert: Eegentlik wil ik beydet, de eenheytlike schriifwiis, d. h.
dev sülwige ümmesettunge van foneemen in grafeeme, t. b. as buawen vörslaun,
man auk en gemeensame schriftsprauke in anknüppenge an dat laate schriewene
"Middelnidderdüüdsck" van'n 16. jhdt., sülftverständlik met moderniseerunge
van de schriifwiis (de foneem-grafeem-to-oordnunk). Dat bruukte je nich
(gliiks) de sprauke for de regionaalen vertellsels un riimels to siin, auk
nich de geliegenheytssprauke in de privaate ünnerholleng van platsnackern
hir un daar.

Aawer, wan dat ümme mehr gedanklike, weetenskeplike saaken günk - insluoten
striid üäwer historie un platsprauke, daar konne dat heyl nütte to siin. Is
dat nich en aarmoutstüügnisse van de bruukbarkeyt un lebennigkeyt van plat,
dat man jewiils 'ne annere sprauke bruuket (sii dat hd., engelsk,
nederlandisk) ümme "üäwer plat" to debatteeren of wat weetenskepliket to
schriiwen. Dat is nett sau, as wan me inner Duden-redaktsjoun latiinsk of
engelsk of fransösk küüren _mösse_, man nich haugdüüdsk.

Am 17.06.2009 um 16:20 schraif Marlou Lessing:

> ... was Du, lieber Joachim, mit dem Hanseplatt als Vorbild meinst. Also
>> eine vereinheitlichte Hochsprache -- mit den Formen des damaligen Platt als
>> gemeinsamem Nenner aller heutigen Dialekte. Reinhard meint dagegen, das
>> kriegen wir nicht hin, die Plattsprecher wollen es nicht. Es wäre ja auch
>> was ganz anderes als das heutige Platt. Auch Joachim zweifelt, ob sich das
>> durchsetzen ließe. Uff!!! Ihr zweifelt mit Recht, meine ich.
>>
>
De twiifel sint wual berechtigt. Dat hänk daarvan af, of dat genoug
"affacionados" gift, düsse sprauke nich blaut wiägen de döünekes un de
gemöütlikheyt liewet, man auk wiils en kultuursprauke met niwoo was un de
man nich unnergaunen lauten wil. Daar met to doun, settet wual auk en gouden
level van algemeen-beldenge un spraukmächtigheyt voruut, de in viele
platkringen met den üäwerresten van de native spreaker wual nich vorhanden
sint.

 Die Leute reden ihren Dialekt ja nicht oder nicht nur, weil sie sich von
>> anderen abgrenzen wollen, engstirnig sind oder ihre Ecke und ihren Tungslag
>> für die Krone der Schöpfung halten. Nein, sie reden ihren Dialekt, weil sie
>> ihn lieben! Genau diesen Dialekt lieben sie.
>>
>
De sallet sey je auk behaulen! Ik bin auk en leyfhewwer van'n
Oustwestfäälsken, man mi ligt auk wat an'n wir-upstaun van eyne
nidderdüüdske (haug-)kultuur.

 Außer Gefühlen gibt es heute überhaupt keinen Grund mehr, Platt zu reden.
>> Die Gefühle müssen wir respektieren und hochhalten, diese Gefühle sind unser
>> Kapital, mit dem wir für Platt etwas tun (können). Sonst lassen wir alle
>> Plattsprecher da stehen, wo sie sind, und gehen zu einer Hochsprache ohne
>> Sprecher/innen. Wohl bekomms.
>>
>
Klaar, dröwwet düsse lüüe nich uuter acht bliiwen in uusen insat for
Nidderdüüdsk, im tiigendeyl. Blaut is miin gissen, dat et blaut na villicht
eyn, twey jaarteggende bruukt un dan kans du dey met de luupen säüken. Wi
bruuket eyneweg lüüe, de uut kulturhistorsken interesse un met frögde an
sprauken sik met plat befaatet. Dat sint de sülwigen, de auk sünner direkte
berouplike nüttigheyt of reeseplääne 'ne früömdsprauke läären. Of sik in
annere rebeeden inwiärket.

Wan ik maul van diine websiit, Marlou, un de LL-L-siite afseye, waar werdet
wat doun, ümme söcke minsken (ik seg maul, van sekundarscoul-alder bet 50)
to fiinen un to for dat spraukaventüür met sassesk to winnen?

Un daar wöör dan auk helpriik, wan dat sowat as 'ne scriftsprauke as
üäwerdackunge gaiwe. Wel de läärt hedde un uut nostagiie of spezialinteresse
sik for en (siinen/eeren) regionaal-dialekt interesseerde, kan dat van de
platform van sauner daksprauke sünner twiiwel lichter daarto kuomen.

Mag siin, dat dat blaut werldfrüömde dröüme sint. Aawerst, sau lange, as
nich maul de eenheytlike schriifwiis, as unner pünt III vorslaun (of
jedwedde sinnige annere, de up alle platte tungensloäge anwendbar is) sik
düürset, kan me nich seggen, dat de naae doot van plat nich aftowenden was.

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrüg => Berlin-Pankow

P. S. Ik bin wual nin christ, man daar mag spraukhistorisk wual wat dran
siin, wat Olaf Bordasch to de Bugenhagen-bibel schrift. De frauge na eyne
saske schriftsprauke as dak bedriäpent:
 http://www.plattdeutsch-niederdeutsch.net/sprachgeschichte.htm

 Bugenhagen und seine Mitarbeiter haben eine Schriftsprache geschaffen, die
> imstande war, die verschiedenen regionalen Ausformungen des Niederdeutschen
> zu überdachen. Diese sprachliche Leistung ist durchaus mit der Luthers zu
> vergleichen. Ohne den Schreibsprachenwechsel zum Hochdeutschen würde heute
> in Norddeutschland eine Sprache geschrieben (gesprochen), die sich aus der
> Sprache der Bugenhagenbibel entwickelt hätte.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/b5286056/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 21:11:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:11:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.18 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.141153.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.18 (01) [NDS]

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de >>

> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (04) [NDS]
>
> Beste Marcus,
>  Du schreyvst:
> "Kennt ji den Utdruck in joon Dialekten ok? Kennt ji noch annere "noch keen
> Mood weren"-Utdrück?"
>  Miin schoyne Jung - in Platt kenn 'ck nich een enkelten ""Uut-Druck"" {=
> 'Ausdruck'; ergo nach Gutenberg!]! Man - ick kenn woll Snacks as 'al'ns
> neymoodschen [neumodern'n] Kraom".
>   Allerbest!
>  Jonny Meibohm
>
Wenn di dat blot üm mien Satz geiht, denn geev ik di recht. Dor harr "Snack"
veel beter passt as "Utdruck". Wenn di dat üm dat Woord "Utdruck" allgemeen
geiht, denn kann ik achter mi wiesen op Reuter, Groth, Boßdorf, Frahm,
Brinckmann un en ganze Reeg annere.

Marcus Buck

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/1223e745/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 21:16:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:16:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.18 (05) [DA-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.141638.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

*Nyhed: Vores jubilæum-site har nu en dansk sprogindeks!*

Folks,

Thanks to Marc Daniel Skibsted Volhardt, a kind, enthusiastic non-Lowlander
in Denmark, our Anniversary site now has a language index in Danish.

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/contents-da.php

Tak skal du ha, Marc.

Folks, time for you members to get active again!

Talking about Danish, you are likely to enjoy the following Danish video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk

I find it extremely funny, presented as a TV reality show spoof. It's a
comic approach to Denmark's dialect diversity. It is made for a Danish
audience, but you will enjoy it even without knowing Danish. The funny thing
is that most of the Danish parts are not to be understood by Danes either.
Three gentlemen complain to the audience in *English* (with Danish
subtitles) about the fact that Danes don't understand each other in Danish
and that as a result Danish society as we know it is doomed. The hilarious
twist is that the participants feel obligated to *pretend* to understand
each other. At one point, the hardware man (*isenkræmmer*) has a moment of
failing courage. What he "whisperingly screams" at the customer to whose arm
he's clinging is "Hjælp! Vi forstår hinanden ikke!" ("Help! We do not
understand each other!") But the stiff upper lip prevails soon enough, and
everyone goes on faking mutual comprehension …

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/3ee6fb17/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 15:19:58 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:19:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.081958.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Dear Lowlanders,

I assume that quite a few of you will travel this weekend. This is why I am
sending these holiday greetings out early enough to catch most of you.

On behalf of everyone I wish all fathers, grandfather, great-grandfathers
and father figures on Lowlands-L happy Fathers' Day. Hopefully all of you
will have visitors and get phone calls, cards and email messages.

Also, happy Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice respectively to all of you
to whom these matter!  Happy *Sankt Hans aften* in Denmark, *Jaanipäev *in
Estonia, *juhannus* in Finland, *Sankthansaften* in Norway,
*Midsommarafton*in Sweden,
*Noc Świętojańska* especially in Northern Poland, and many variants of
Midsummer festivals in Britain, Ireland and Man, to name but a few. It is
also the beginning of the month-long *Белые ночи* (White Nights) for our
friends in Russia.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/beefe310/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 15:31:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:31:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language activism" 2009.06.19 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.083135.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: HanneloreHinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (05) [NDS]

Wedder Tauhuus,

man dit blotsen will ick hier vermellen:

GERDA UHTHOFF
2.8.1896 - 21.10.1988
(verlor zwei Söhne im
2. Weltkrieg)

LEIW' PLATTDÜTSCH

*MUDDERSPRAAK*
**
Ut deipen Grunn,
in gläunig Wunn,
hest du di röögt,
käämst du tauhööcht,
wüürdst in mi waak,
mien Mudderspraak.

Dunn hülpst du mi,
nu dein ik di.

Hanne: so wier dat för mi vör un nah denn' iesern Vörhang. Wecker dit
Fäuhlen (ut wecker Grünn ok) egentlich ERFÜHLEN nich kennt ..... sall dat
Laborieren mit uns' Sprak sien laten. Uns Sprak*  is in sick stark un riek,
ja oewerriek!*

FRITZ REUTER

*Eikbom*

2. Vers: "...*up den'n fött kein Bil nich un Äxt."*
**
*Ick holl mi an Ron sien Wüür! Hei hett ein Oewerkaken tau rechten Tied
bremst.*
*Ick dank di.*
**
Mi hett so männig Wuurt trurig makt un de Peiterzill verhagelt. (Ick wull
all' dat Handdauk smieten. Heff ick mi denn bether in all' de Johrn  ümsüss
för uns' Spraak insett', wo't ofteins heiten hett ".....ach du mit deinem
Plattdeutsch..."
(Frech wat angahn gellt  un tellt nich.)

In Fründschaft.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/cd16ff56/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 15:32:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:32:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.19 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.083238.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatika" 2009.06.18 (04) NDS]

Hallo Marcus un taugliek all' Frünn',

ick kenn Wüür, as Mod' wier. . .

*Mod', *Maud' f. Mode
*1.*  Kleidermode: *wat Mod' is, dat lett *kleidet (SchöDem) *wat Mod' is,
lett gaut, un wir 't ok 'n Haut ahn Rand un Band (Wa); wat Mod' is, dat lett
gaut, hadd' de Fru seggt un hadd' 't Hinnelst nah vörn bunnen (Wa).*
*2. Gewohnheit, Brauch: **wo 't Mod' is, ritt de Preister uppen Bullen nah
dei Kirch (Raabe Proph. 1848, S. 10); . . . de Buer . . . (SchöDem); *vielfach
abgewandelt; *wo 't Mod' is, ward Pumpernickel in de Kirch sungen (STA
Mir);  wo 't Mod' is, bläken de Hunn' ut 'n Noors (1887) PaDobb; wat an, in,
för, tau, von dei Mod' hebben; dat is so von de Mod'; in dei Mod' kamen; dei
kümmt ok all ut dei Mod'*  eine alte Jungfer;
*dat is gangbor Mod' (allgemein üblich Schö); dat wir von Vadder ut Mod'  *von
früher her Brauch HaWitt; *dei sett't 'n Gesicht up, as in soeben Johr keen
Mod' wääst is (RoKlock); du lachst jo oewer 't ganz Gesicht, un oewer 't
halw is man Mod' (WaKLuck); *selten Pl.:* ick mein ümmer, dei Moden, dei dei
Ollen an sick hadden, wiren noch jo  so gaut, as wat sei nu maken (1919)
LuTech. *
*Zss:Zusammensetzungen: Dörp-, Gang'-, Landmod'.*
**
(Dat all', all wedder von Wossidlo/Teuchert)

Un so, as dat nu mal Mod' is
hier wedder mien hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne Hinzing

(denkt't noch eins an *ing*)

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/44d7f25c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 16:18:10 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:18:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.091810.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (01) [EN]

Speaking of father figures, Ron holds that distinction here on Lowlands-L in
my opinion.  Recently, I went to the Linguistlist site to see whether I
could find lists similar to Lowlands about other languages, and I couldn’t.


Sure, Linguistlist has other lists regarding other languages, but nothing
like what Ron has done here with Lowlands.  They hardly had any activity,
and what activity they had mostly touched on seminars and workshops.  I’d
like to thank him for providing such a wonderful forum for us here.  If it
weren’t for this list, I know that I couldn’t have learned to read as much
Dutch as I can.  It even spurred me to try my hand at reading the Northern
Germanic languages.  So, a big thanks, Ron.

Mark Brooks
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Thanks, Mark. That was really sweet of you.

But you probably know that much of it is due to many supportive
participants, including you. I just constantly attempt to keep things alive,
fresh, encouraging, welcoming (non-intimidating) and comfortable. Some
levity here and there helps. Of course I owe a debt of gratitude to another
father figure: our patron saint and spiritual guide, the Great Kahuna (
http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm).

Folks, it might be interesting to find out how Summer Solstice and Winter
Solstice are celebrated in your native cultures. As is usual, Summer
Solstice has been overlaid by a Christian holiday, in this case St. John's
Day (after John the Baptist). But customs associated with it usually
represent pre-Christian customs and beliefs. I understand that there is
particularly much variety in this in Britain. For instance, bonfires (< bone
fires) are commonly lit during both solstices. This custom seems to be very,
very old. Variants are found throughout Eurasia.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron (List Daddy)
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/479452b8/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 16:19:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:19:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.19 (05) [NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.091954.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Cillie Nevelhekse

Moi Leeglaanders,

Hieronder en link naor wat neiigheid aover de nevelhekse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSzaA3C6zBM

Goodgaon,
Arend Victorie
Hoogeveen
|Drenthe
Nederland

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/c7373592/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 17:51:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:51:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Competition" 2009.06.19 (06) [NL-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.105153.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Examenopdracht

Moi Leeglaanders,



Ik heb in 2008 mitwarking verliend an een körte film.



Dit was een examenopdracht van Remco Kikkert, veur de opleiding “Fotonica”



Het in scène zetten van een oflevering van “Peter R. de Vries
Misdaodverslaggever.”



Ik zal der geliek wel èempies bij vermelden, da’k onschuldig bin
!!!!!!!!!.......



Remco is deur dizze examenopdracht eslaagd mit een vette NEGEN !!!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbGaq4l_kLY



Kiek en huver………



Goodgaon,



Arend Victorie

Hoogeveen

Drenthe

Nederland

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/64f503dc/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 22:47:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:47:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.19 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.154714.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

Hello Lowlanders, I do not know if any of you is interested in Secret
Languages like Rotwaelsch and Bargoens, but I found this reference on
another forum and thought you might be interested. It is written in Dutch,
but gives extensive information about the different vocabularies.

`De geheimtalen' van J.G.M. Moormann, editie Nicoline van der Sijs.
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/moor012gehe02_01/index.htm"

Groeten

Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle WA USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/af7dec9f/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 23:00:52 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:00:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (10) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.160052.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 10
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (04) [E]

 Dear Mark:

Subject: LL-L "Lists"

Referring to your observation in LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (01) [EN]:
"Speaking of father figures, Ron holds that distinction here on Lowlands-L
in my opinion.  Recently, I went to the Linguistlist site to see whether I
could find lists similar to Lowlands about other languages, and I couldn’t."

Seconded, from this I.T. illiterate. Otherwise I would go further & object
that I have found no lists similar to ours on any other subject. Certain
sure if there was anything on a par with it covering such matter as
mythology I would know. The best I can do in that line is read Frazer &
Terry Pratchett.

Daniel Defoe put these words in Robinson Crusoe's mouth, 'Mathematicks is
the mother of all crafts.' No less truly is Language the mother of all
wisdom. You can see it flowing out from all the letters & incidentally
particularly Ron's, how so straightened a base as Lowlands Languages draws
into its ambit minutiae of the sciences at several removes from speech as
such. & (considering his response to your letter, making only passing
mention of the celebrative days due this solstice) Ron is also very strong
on the fundamental mythos of our Lowlands Peoples, which is fine by me.

Yrs, Mark Dreyer.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/569dd31c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 22:58:10 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:58:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2009.06.19 (09) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.155810.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Taalerkenning

  Beste Leeglaanders,

Onderastaonde link betreft ienige schermutselingen in de Drentse
statencommissie Cultuur en Welzijn, angaonde een hogere erkenning van “t
Nedersaksisch.

http://www.huusvandetaol.nl/content/view/342/1/

Arend Victorie

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/9266091c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 22:45:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:45:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.19 (07) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.154533.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.18 (04) [NDS]

Beste Marcus,

Du schreyvst:

 Wenn di dat blot üm mien Satz geiht, denn geev ik di recht. Dor harr
"Snack" veel beter passt as "Utdruck". Wenn di dat üm dat Woord "Utdruck"
allgemeen geiht, denn kann ik achter mi wiesen op Reuter, Groth, Boßdorf,
Frahm, Brinckmann un en ganze Reeg annere.
Aovers - finn'st ne ouk, wat "Utdruck" sou 'n beten nao 1:1-Översetten rükt?
Eyn Doun't, wokeyn dat all bruukt hett - dat *is* doch all 'n
(houghdüütsche[n]) Metapher un' terminus technicus.
Ick versoyk jümmers, sou 'n Kraom weg tou laoten, woans dat man jüst eben
gayht (...un' bruuk sylbst denn doch faoken 'nough ouk sou 'ne Woyr ;-)).

Allerbest!

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/a532b1e4/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 20 17:38:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:38:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.20 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.103838.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.18 (04) [DE-EN-NDS]

 Leve Joachim,

uff! :-)) Wedder packst Du en ganzen Barg in Din Mail, un ik warr versöken,
de enkelten Pünkt to wägen.

Also, toeerst fallt mi wedder op, wa wenig ik vun de Spraakgeschicht
verstah. Dat Hanseplatt kenn ik bloots vun poor Faksimiles vun ole
Uurkunnen. Dat hett also en Genitiv un en Dativ geven? Wöör as "'s avends"
heff ik jümmers en beten scheel ankeken; ik heff nich över nadacht, harr
avers so'n Geföhl, dat dat ole Hochdeutschizismen weern!!! Da heff ik denn
ja totaal verkehrt leggen. Sachtens gifft dat gor keen Hochdeutschizismen,
de so oolt sünd, oder? Wa oolt is de öllste Hochdeutschiszismus in Platt?

Nu is dat avers so, dat de allermehrsten Plattsnackers den pd. Dativ un
Genitiv nich kennt. In ehr Platt, dat se (vun Kind an, in poor wenige Fäll)
lehrt hebbt, kümmt dat nich vör un warrt ok nich nödig brukt. Dat is nich
"ehr" Platt. De Fraag is wedder, kriggst düsse Plattsnackers dorto, solk
Formen to bruken? Un jümmers noch, worüm schullst dat versöken? Man da will
ik noch wieder nerrn op kamen.

 Liekso mit dat, wat Du vun dat "sch" vertellst. Is "sal" öller, originaler
as "schall"? In den Tungslag, den ik kenn, warrt dat "-tion" t.B. in
"Information" in en eenzigen, weken, breden Zischluud verwannelt:
"Informaschoon". So schriff ik dat ok, un ik harr bether dacht, dat weer
besünners plattdüütsch. Denn jedereen kennt doch dat, wat he/se höört hett,
as "dat oginaale Platt"!

Bi de schrievtechnischen un grammatischen Details bün ik gau afhangt, un
wenn ik afhangt bün, warr ik groottöögsch :-) (Ha! "Groottöögsch" is in
düsse Schrievwies en Woort, 'neem 3 Duppelluden direktemang opnanner folgt!
Dat schall mal en anner Spraak namaken!) Dormit meen ik: Ji Facklüüd köönt
dat maken, as Ji wüllt. Ik warr mi denn later mehr orr minner an hollen. Wat
Du vun de kotten un langen Vokaaln schriffst, lücht mi in, un de Bremer
Schrievwies mit düsse Dingsdas ünner de Bookstaven is wohrschienlich en
Tortuur op'e PC-Tastatuur, alleen dorwegen bün ik da liekso skeptisch as Du.
Dat mit dat ie för en langes i sitt us all vun't Hoochdüütsche her in de
Knaken, man wenn een "wat Niees" schrieven will, denn stöött ja ok de
Nich-Westfalen op düt Problem. (Utnahmen de, de "wat Nieges" orr "wat
Niedes" schrievt.) Also, vun de Details her stah ik so dorto:

1. De Schrievwies, da bün ik verdreeglich un laat de Facklüüd gröttstendeels
maken. En eenheitliche Schrievwies is mi recht.

2. Wat de Grammatik is, da fangt min Skepsis al an. Worüm den Dativ un
Genitiv inföhren? Ik meen, de Grammatik vun en vereinheitlichtes Platt
schull so neeg an dat Platt vun hüüt ween, as dat man even geiht.

Nich dat Du denkst, ik will en Fack-Menen gellen maken. Nee, ik glööv, de
dörsnittliche Plattsnacker warrt ganz liek reageern. Ut'n Buuk rut, as wi
vundaag seggt, also na't Geföhl. Un dat entscheidt ja jümmers.

Nu is da avers noch de ganze Fraag: Worüm? Ik versöch mal, dat in Stichpünkt
optoschrieven:

1. Du wullt sotoseggen en plattdüütsches Esperanto ut de ole Hansespraak
schaffen. Bruukt wi dat würklich?

2. Liek as Esperanto weer Din nieg-ole Spraak tosättlich to de egen
Platt-Dialekten, de de Lü in de Wahnstuuv usw. snackt. (Du schriffst "Dat
bruukte je nich (gliiks) de sprauke for de regionaalen vertellsels un
riimels to siin, auk nich de geliegenheytssprauke in de privaate
ünnerholleng van platsnackern hir un daar."). De niege Hoochspraak mööt se
also extra lehren. Dat mutt denn en heel goden Grund hebben. Hoochdüütsch
gifft dat ja al.

3. Du hest de Spraak vörsehn as en Hooch- un Kultuurspraak. Dat heet, Texten
in düsse ganz niege Spraak mööt ganz nieg un extra för düssen Zweck schreven
warrn. Un bloots bi solk Gelegenheiten, as Du andüüdst -- wenn nämlich
ünnerscheedlich Plattsnackers to kulturellen orr wetenschaplichen Uttuusch
tohoopkaamt --, warrt düsse Spraak snackt. Denn tohuus snackt ja jedereen
sin Dialekt.
Jungedi, kann en Spraak ünner düsse Bedingen leven? Esperanto hett dat
reinweg licht dorgegen!

4. Ik seh jümmers noch nich, woso sogoor denn so en eenheitliche Hoochspraak
nödig is. Dat rükt mi allens to dull na Retorte. Ehr extra to lehren kost
Opwand; liek so lichtfarig köönt de ünnerscheedlichen Plattsnackers ehr
*passives* Plattverstahn orrig breder maken, dat se een den annern in sin
Heimatdialekt verstaht. *Aktiv* snackt denn jedereen sin egen Dialekt, den
de anner passiv versteiht. Dat weer üm un bi dat, wat ik mi ünner de
praktische "Standardveelfalt" vörstelln do.

5. Wenn Hoochspraak, worüm torüchgahn in de Hansetied? De pd. Spraak hett
sik doch entwickelt, is wiedergahn, un dat nich bloots divergent in mennig
Dialekten; nee, se hebbt ok Gemeensames, dat nieger is as de Hansespraak.
Dat schull bibehollen warrn, denk ik. En eenheitliche Spraak, wenn
överhaupt, schull so neeg an de aktuellen Platt-Dialekten ween, as dat man
even geiht!

6. Mit welk Argumenten wullt Du düsse niege Spraak populär maken? Du
schriffst: "Dat hänk daarvan af, of dat genoug "affacionados" gift, düsse
sprauke nich blaut wiägen de döünekes un de gemöütlikheyt liewet, man auk
wiils en kultuursprauke met niwoo was un de man nich unnergaunen lauten wil.
". Vun Unnergahn kann avers keen Reed nich ween, denn de niege Spraak is ja
ganz frisch. Dat "Konservierungs-Argument", dat faken för dat Platt vun hüüt
in't Feld föhrt warrt, gellt also da nich.

7. Du kannst mit Recht seggen, dat de enkelten Dialekten un ehr Veelfalt för
Lü, de Pd. nieg lehren wüllt, en Hürde sünd un ehr biester maken köönt.
Avers wenn de Lü, de "Platt" lehren wüllt, staats en Dialekt de Hoochspraak
lehrt, lehrt se denn wat, wat in de Wahnstuven gor nich snackt warrt. Dat
helpt ehr ok nich wieder.

Alltohoop meen ik, dat Hanseplatt is wiss en faszineern Saak, avers ik bün
nich vun Menen, dat en eenheitliche pd. Snack so bitter nödig deit un wenn
doch, dat de olen Foormen us da dull wiederhelpen wöörn. En levige
nedderdüütsche Hoochspraak finnt wi an'n ehesten in de Nedderlannen. Ik wöör
ehrder da henkieken, avers de Veelfalt vun pd. Dialekten mag ik ok denn nich
recht opgeven. Wenn wi de Dialektveelfalt in en Starkde verwanneln kunnen,
weern wi veel wieder.

Hartlich!

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language planning

Leve Lüüd',
Na mien Verschääl is dat Planen vun düt un dat Woord nich vun groot Belang.
Dat bringt villicht mehr Nadelen as Vördelen vun wägen dat "noorddüütsche
Stuurhaftige" ("So snackt *wi* nich!"). So lang as man de Schriefwies'
œverregionaal un konsequent is (eendoont of up 'n hanseaatsche Wies' [as ik
't ünnen wies'] or nich) un de Dialekten nich doot maakt -- un dat weer
schöön, wenn us Lüüd' in de Nedderlannen mit bedacht wöörn -- vääl, vääl
schräven ward un de Minschen annere Dialekten höört un lääst, so kann Allens
lichtfardiger in sien Spoor kamen. So as in't Nynorsk vun Noorwägen kann
denn elk Spräker un elk Schriever sien egenen neen Wöör as Vörslääg' bruken.
Annere Spräkers un Schrievers nähmt sik denn an, wat jüm toseggt, un
bilütten kümmt 'n Slag "soft standard" up de Been. So hett 't bi all de
Standardspraken anfungen. Dat is so wat as "organic growth".
Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Leyve luyd',
Na myn verscheel is dat planen vun düt un dat wourd nich vun groot belang.
Dat bringt villicht meyr nadeylen as vördeylen vun wegen dat "nourdduytsche
stuurhaftige" ("So snakt *wi* nich!"). So lang as man dey schryvwys'
œverregionaal un konsekwent is (eyndound of up 'n hanseaatsche wys' [as ik
't hyr wys'] or nich) un dey dialekten nich dood maakt -- un dat weyr
schoyn, wen us luyd' in de Nedderlanden mit bedacht woyrden -- veel, veel
schreven wardt un dey minschen annere dialekten höört un leest, so kan
allens lichtvardiger in syn spour kamen. So as in't Nynorsk vun Nourwegen
kan den elk spreker un elk schryver syn eygenen neyen woyrd' as vörsleeg'
bruken. Annere sprekers un schryvers neemt sik den an, wat jüm tou-segt, un
by lütten kümt 'n slag "soft standard" up dey beynen. So het 't by al dey
standardspraken an-vungen. Dat is so wat as "organic growth".
Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/9d6fcb1b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 20 17:40:37 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:40:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.20 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.104037.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "idiomatica" 2009.06.19 (07) [NDS]

Hallo Jonny un Marcus un alltohopen,

nu mell ick mi hier ok noch tau Wuurt.
Ick würd ok leiwer "Snack" seggen. Un nu noch dit:
Wossidlo/Teuchert: (Duntaumalen ok all Ausdruck : Utdruck  1 : 1 seggt, wiel
 sei't nich bäter wüßten.
Utdruck m.
1. Ausdruck a.Wort:* früher säden wi Pundbeeren, hüt heit dat Tafelbeeren,
hüt kriggt dat all 'n bätern Utdruck. *SchwDamb; *jedes Dörp hett sinen
Utdruck un ok binah sin Sprak *LuNiend.  b. sprachliche Formulierung: *ick
kenn dor keinen Utdruck oewer *kann die Sage nicht erzählen, kann mich nicht
ausdrücken SchwKlad;
2. Eindruck: *dat maakt keinen Utdruck *SchöCarl; *ick segg' ümmer, wer
vertellen will, möt ok leigen koenen, süs hett dat keinen Utdruck *MaBas.
Zs. *Huskittelmannsutdruck. *
Ick würd ok seggen *Snack, as man so seggt, as dis Oort (Ausdruck) noch
begäng' wier, ick würd dit Wuurt (Ausdruck) so, as dat nu kümmt utdüden (un
denn verklorst du dat).*
Das Wort Ausdruck/Utdruck kann auch ein Manuskript/Ausdruck sein, denn Druck
kommt von drücken.
utdrücken 1. trans. a. durch Drücken von einer Flüssigkeit befreien: Bei der
Schafwäsche *ward mit de rechte Hand de Wull utdrückt *MaStav. b. drückend
ausfüllen: *dat Höwt von de Hark würd' mit Waß utdrückt *mit farbigem Wachs
in eingeschnitzten Vertiefungen verziert SchöGrev.

"Plattdeutsch-hochdeutsches Wörterbuch" von R. Herrmann-Winter:
Utdruck m. Ausdruck (sei hett sick dat männigmal tau licht makt, un wi
sitten nu mit an...)

Ick heff mi nu up mien Oort künnig makt (ausgedrückt).

Denn "drückt" juug man richtig ut, wenn 't noch "gedruckt" *druckt *warden
sall. Woans heit nu <drucken> up Platt?   *druckt *...

Na ja, denn man tau.

Best' Gräuten.
De Ollsch mit de Lücht, de de Lüüd bedrüggt/bedrücht.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/88060a05/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 20 17:44:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:44:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2009.06.20 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.104426.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

Also, happy Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice respectively to all of you
to whom these matter!  Happy *Sankt Hans aften* in Denmark, *Jaanipäev *in
Estonia, *juhannus* in Finland, *Sankthansaften* in Norway,
*Midsommarafton*in Sweden,
*Noc Świętojańska* especially in Northern Poland, and many variants of
Midsummer festivals in Britain, Ireland and Man, to name but a few. It is
also the beginning of the month-long *–ë–µ–ª—ã–µ –Ω–æ—á–∏* (White Nights)
for our friends in Russia.


Speaking of Russia: Today, a branch of the world famous Hermitage-museum
opened its doors in Amsterdam.

http://www.hermitage.nl

At a conference, Medvedev said that Russia was willing to drastically reduce
its number of nuclear weapons. One would almost believe that culture is not
only able to melt people's hearts...but even steel ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/7b3b9866/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 00:23:17 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:23:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.20 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.172317.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

As you may have noticed, mail delivery has been strange lately, beginning
from the time when our hosts installed new servers. Some of the mailings
arrive very late (I just got one I sent ca. 24 hours ago) and some seem not
to arrive at all, or not everyone receives them. All of them seem to arrive
in the archive, however (
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html).

I have reported this to our hosts and sent them samples in the hope that
they can figure out and remedy whatever is amiss.

I am sorry about any inconvenience this has been causing you.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/b491c023/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 05:45:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:45:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Obituary" 2009.06.20 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.224548.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Obituary

Dear Lowlanders,

I am sorry I have to share with you the obituary message below.

Many among you no doubt remember Reuben Epp and all his great knowledge
about Mennonite Low Saxon (*Plautdietsch*) he shared with us over the years.
I remember him with fondness and was fortunate enough to meet him in Canada
a few years ago. He was a true gentleman and a kind friend. My thoughts are
with his loved ones, and with the many other friends and fellow students he
made over many years.

Reuben translated and narrated our Anniversary story in Melochna
Plautdietsch:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/molochna.php

I have updated the Wikipedia articles about Reuben.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Epp
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Epp
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruben_Ap

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

From: Cory Epp <kelowna.kid at telus.net
Subject: Memorial for Reuben Epp*

It is with deep sadness that the family of Reuben Epp must inform you of his
passing on June 20, 2009. A memorial service will be held at First Mennonite
Church, 1305 Gordon, Kelowna, BC on Saturday, June 27, at 2 PM. A musical
prelude will commence at 1:30 PM. We hope that you will be able to join us
in honouring our beloved father, grandfather, great-grandfather and husband.
*

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/27b5b77c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:10:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:10:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.21 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.121047.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

Yesterday I wrote the following:

As you may have noticed, mail delivery has been strange lately, beginning
from the time when our hosts installed new servers. Some of the mailings
arrive very late (I just got one I sent ca. 24 hours ago) and some seem not
to arrive at all, or not everyone receives them. All of them seem to arrive
in the archive, however (
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html).

In the meantime, a few of the mailings have arrived in my private mailbox.
Others have not yet arrived, but among them is one to which I already
received a response from one of you. So there appears to be some sort of
spotty back-up situation.

This may mean one of two things: (1) the server does not distribute mailings
as it should, especially during the past three days or so, or (2) the
problem has nothing to do with the server but is due to problems in email
transmission.

If 2 is the case I wonder if it has anything to do with the scramble to get
large volumes of messages out of and into Iran, considering problems related
to governmental communication blocks and innovative ways to circumvent them,
considering also the large number (400,00+) Iranian Americans, especially in
Southern California and in other locations here on the American West Coast,
not to mention large numbers of expatriate Iranians in Europe.

Talking about such, I am sure I speak for every Lowlander when I say,
irrespective of politics, that I hope our subscribers in Iran and their
friends and families are safe, also friends and families of our subscribers
with roots in Iran. I have checked with my Iranian friends that live outside
Iran, and all of them are quite worried. However the current situation is
going to play out, I hope that reason and compassion will prevail.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/d9c6d0bc/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:12:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:12:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Obituary" 2009.06.21 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.121246.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de|>
Subject: LL-L "Obituary" 2009.06.20 (05) [EN]

Lieber Ron,

auch ich nehme mit tiefem Mitgefühl Anteil und hörte nachdenkend seine mir
vertraut gewordene Stimme. Die Stimme von Reuben Epp
"De Tuunkjeenig". Ich hörte ihm immer gern zu.

Hannelore
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/1552d3c1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:15:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:15:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.21 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.121520.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de|>
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.20 (01) [NDS]


Leiw' Frünn',

ob mien Gedanken hier so rinpassen, weit ick nich so recht, oewer Ron kriggt
dat all hen.

Wecker kennt noch Gerd Lüpke (ein Perfesser mit hoge Verdeinsten). Ein deipe
Fründschaft mit dat Schriewer-Poor Gerd un Irmgard (Greif-Lüpke) höllt ümmer
noch; nu mit sien Wittfru.

Wat de Grammatik angeiht, later noch nahdenkern Wüür.

G. Lüpke  ut Varel schrew 6. Mai 2000 an mi (Strämel ut dissen Breif):

Un kümmt noch tau, dat ick giern an Di schrieben dau.
Nu över tau Dienen Breif. Inga is stolt as son Hahn - nee, as son Kluck up'n
Meß, indäm ehr Geschicht Di so gaud geföllt un Du Di dor so väl Gedanken üm
makt hest:
Ick mein, Du hest dat bäten tau dull mit de klauken Vörschriften, Hanning.
Wossidlo hett ganz, ganz grote Verdeinsten, dat is klor, öwer'n Minsch wier
he ok man. Vörschriften wat de Formen angeiht, sünd nödig un könen Holt
gäben. Öwer de Gedichten maken wi! Wi un nich de klauken Theoretiker. Un
wenn wi de Formen kennen un meinen, wi müßten dor öwer weg - wägen de Saak,
wägen dat Gedicht un dat, wat dat seggen will un sall - denn hebben wi dat
Recht, uns dor ok öwer wegtausetten. Dichtung läwt - öwer Formen sünd man
dat Skelett - un dat kannst bögen. Öwer wenn Dichtung läben sall, denn möt
Fleisch un Blaut up dat Skelett. Un dat kümmt nu mal von uns. Ick weit, dat
willen väle von de klauken Akkemickers nicht weiten - öwer dat sünd denn ja
ok man blot de Eunuchen, de woll weiten, woans dat makt warden möt, de dat
öwer sülben nich könen. So väl tau de Theorie.
Ick pack Di mien Basha-Essay mit in. Denn ja ok noch mal mien eigen Haiku
"Lotos und Weidenbaum" tau'n Ankieken, wenn Di ok de intressieren daun. Möst
denn man seggen. (Ende)

Wi hebben jeden Sünndag per Quasselstripp vertellt. As wi up de Grammatik
tau snacken kämen, säd hei: Hanning, mak dat nich tau dull mit de Grammatik,
mit ehr maken wi uns Sprak  kaputt.

Un dor is väl an wohr. Bi mien' Vörgänger (ein hd. un nd. Schriftsteller)
sünd de "Erwachsenen", Lehrer, Ärzte, Hausfrauen usw. usw. nah ein Semester
nich wedderkamen. Sei harden de Näs' vull, ja, sei sünd weglopen 1977/78.
Denn hett de Direkter von de VHS (feinen Kierl) so lang mit mi rümmegummelt
(gebettelt), un ick säd tau. Un woans ick de Saak angahn bün, dat is ein
anner Geschicht.

Ick heff 27 Johr (nebenberuflich) un nu noch 3 Johr (ut Freud) mit de
Mitmakers wierermakt, un so sall dat blieben. Probleme, wat de Grammatik
angüng, man blotsen
bi de Konjugation Präsens as Bispill: ick gah, du geihst, hei sei dat (et)
geiht, wi gahn (so heit dat hier), ji gaht, sei gahn. Fief bet teihn Minuten
un nich länger... süss...oha.
Un wenn wi Reuter, Brinckman, Groth, Bellmann, ok R. Hahn lääst hebben,
also mit de Klür von ehr Platt, denn hett dat ofteins heiten "...  bi uns
Tauhuus seggen wi dat ganz anners", un dat möten annähmen un jeder hett't
veertellt. Ick wull man seggen, wer uns' Spraak snackt, de kann ok de Klür
von anner pd. Spraken bestens verstahn. Dor möten wi gor nich soväl Ümstänn'
mit maken, dat fäuhlt man doch gliek.

In de iersten Johrn bi de VHS haar ick so an 25 Mitmakers
(Fortgeschrittene), un  bi de
Anfänger binah so väl. Heff je noch all' de Listen un Lihrprogramme, man de
müßt ick ok noch utklamüsern, wiel 't hier noch kein gäw. Un ahn  PC, man
blot mit ein klapperig Schriewmeschin, wat'n hüt nich mir glöwen will usw..
Un denn gew't nich dat "Durchschlagpapier", wat hetten sick dunnmals afquäln
möten.
(Un denn noch de Bang vör gewisse Aportendräger.)

Dit is nu mien Wuurt taun Sünndag.
Wi möten mihr an dat Bestahn von uns' Spraak denken.

Von Harten mien Gräuten.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/9d1eb60b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:17:02 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:17:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.21 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.121702.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.20. (01) [NDS]

Nu krieg ick jug up alle Fälle bi denn' Fall

Hallo all' Frünn',

in ein Antiquarirat Halle/Saale heff ick glieksens nah dit Bauk gräpen (noch
vör de  Wenn' üm 1970-?):

Niederdeutsche Bücherei Band 126
Paul Bröcker
*Kleine Wort=und Formkunde des Plattdeutschen*
Dith synt de Kennewarden van Richard Hermes Verlag tho Hamborch an de Elve
(Symbol mit Schimmel RHV)
Richard Hermes Verlag / Hamburg 1938
Druck: Richard Hermes Druckerei, Schwerin i.M.

Ein Lehr= und Lernbüchlein

*3. Stunde:*
Das Hauptwort: Geschlecht - Mehrzahlbildung - Fallführung.

*Fallführung:*
In der gesamten plattdeutschen Fallführung sind die vier Fälle auf zwei
Fälle zusammengelegt. Es gibt einen  N e n n f a l l (hd. 1. Fall) und einen
F o r m f a l l (hd: 2., 3. und 4. Fall). - (Vom alten 2. Fall bestehen noch
Reste: Möllers Huus - Müllers Haus,  vör Jaarstiet - vor Jahres Zeit usw.) -
Die einzelnen Formen des Formfalles sind die ehemaligen Formen des 4. oder
3. Falles.
Alle  V e r h ä l t n i s w ö r t e r  regieren den Formfall. - Sie
kennzeichnen das engere Fallverhältnis, ob Wes=, Wem= oder Wenfall. -
Überhaupt ergibt sich das Fallverhältnis aus dem Zusammenhang.
Nennfall: de Mann der Mann   de Frou die Frau   dat Kind das Kind
Formfall: den Mann dem Mann   de Frou der Frau   dat Kind dem Kind
Nennfall: de Lüüd   die Leute
Formfall: de Lüüd   den Leuten
                                 die  Leute

Als schwache Fallführung besteht (wie im Hd.) im Formfall/Einzahl männlich
die Endung =en:  den Grafen     den Grafen
          den Blinnen    den Blinden

Dor hebben sick noch mihr 'n Kopp oewer denn' *Fall *makt, un männigein is
mit sien Grappen foll'n.

Noch 'n schönen un sinnigen Sünndag.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/4cef9b87/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:34:36 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:34:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.21 (05) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.123436.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paddy Van Raepenbusch <paddy.vanraepenbusch at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16

To Diederik

Thanks for answering my queries on some potential of the origin of
"raepenbusch" and the links provided.

"...Indeed 'raap' is the modern Dutch word for turnip, Latin name 'Brassica
 rapa'. In Amsterdam we also have a street name "Rapenburg", so I thought
I'd
 try to find the etymology on that one as it could be related to your story.
 Bu googling for that I actually found a reference to the Flemish one as you
 mentioned:

 *Vanaf de Stuiver liep hij immers rechtlijnig door via het Sompelstraatje
 (tot na de tweede wereldoorlog nog in gebruik) langsheen het Goed te
 Zoetendale (nu F. Standaert) tot aan het Hof Rapenburg (Bos, E. Verschelde)
 om, de grensstraat Waarschoot-Zomergem volgend, verderop de hierboven
 aangehaalde aansluiting te verwezenlijken. In het landboek van 1798 werd
hij
 aangeduid als de “Eekloosche voetweg”, wellicht de oudste verbinding tussen
 Eeklo en Gent. In de atlas van de buurtwegen van 1841 werd hij evenwel niet
 opgenomen, theoretisch toen reeds afgeschaft zijnde.*
 **...."

Best Regards
Paddy

----------

From: Paddy Van Raepenbusch <paddy.vanraepenbusch at googlemail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your reply.

"... It seems to me that the old *raepen* you're talking about is the
cognate of
 English "to reap".
 The *raepen* in Raepenbusch seems to be a noun in the plural, though...."

The relationship with the english word "to reap" makes sense as in old
dutch text, it is often used in the sense of "taking, gather, pick
up..etc"
It is also found in the figurative sense as in:
"Uyt een anders onvoorfichtighieyd kan men voor zig felven eene goede
les raepen."
And by association, ( I don't know what came first, the egg or the
hen),  between "raep" (=turnip) and the verb "raepen" (=
pulling,gathering).

I did also found a reference to a forest called "rappenbusch" in
germany (Schifferstadt), the german translation of "rappen" being
"black horse"! How this relates to the dutch "raepen" is another
story!

Best Regards
Paddy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Paddy!

At first I thought, "Forget about the *Rappen* thing." But then I thought,
"Hmm ... Wait a moment."

German *Rappe* (plural *Rappen*) means 'black horse' as you mentioned. It
comes from Middle German *rappe* 'raven'. (Modern Standard German has
*Rabe*'raven' but retained
*Rappe* 'black horse' as an archaism.)

Modern Dutch has *raaf* (phonemically /raav/) for 'raven' (plural *raven*).

Could it be that *raepen* as an older southern Dutch equivalent of
*raven*became fossilized in the name Raepenbusch, equivalent to what
would be
**Ravenbos* in Modern Standard Dutch? Are there any other instances in which
older southern /p/ is equivalent to modern standard /v/ (as in the German
case mentioned above)?

So, if this hypothesis holds any water, Raepenbusch could be analyzed as
"Raven(s)bush".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/1992c3e1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 01:03:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:03:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.21 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.180300.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (06) [EN]

Hello there KarlRein,

 KarlRein <KarlRein at aol.com> wrote

Please give us some sentences as examples.

Just a couple of examples:
Ze vader es gestorven. Mar zene pa leeft nog.
Me breu komt morgen. Ze zuster kan nie meekomen. Heur moeder es ziek. Heur
vader es al langk geleën gestorven
  The word 'moe' is treated as a feminine noun before the poss. pron. mijn
(men) and zijn (zen): e.g.  : Men/zen moe es in de kliniek. Neutral would
have been: me, ze. Before other possessive pronouns (ons (ö:s), hun, uw
(oer) it wouldn't make any difference as neutral and feminine forms for
these pronouns are exactly the same.
 'Pa' is clearly masculine: Mene, oere (uw), heure, zene, onze (ö:ze), hunne
pa.

As you will see, the situation is rathercomplicated .

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

In Getelands broer , moeder, vader en zuster are neutal when preceded by a
possessive pronoun. Pa en moe don't follow this rule. They are respectively
masculine and feminine.

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/c3fcaa2a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 01:56:02 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:56:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2009.06.21 (07) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.185602.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions"

De gemeente Herstappe (89 inwoners) aan de taalgrens ten zuiden van Limburg
is nooit kunnen fusioneren omdat ze valt onder een regime van
taalfaciliteiten.

Is dat verbranden van stro bij en bruiloft nog elders gebruikelijk?

Citaat uit url:
http://www.hbvl.be/limburg/herstappe/na-negen-jaar-nog-eens-een-bruiloft-in-herstappe-2.aspx
*20/06 Erik Robeyns (28) uit Herstappe en Marlutje Jackers (23) uit Val-Meer
geven elkaar vandaag het ja-woord. In Limburgs kleinste gemeente is dat
reden tot feesten voor het hele dorp: het is immers negen jaar geleden dat
er nog eens een bruiloft plaatsvond in de gemeente.*
*.... In Herstappe wordt veel volk verwacht aan het gemeentehuis en in de
Sint-Jan De Doperkerk. Bij een huwelijk worden er nog een aantal tradities
in ere gehouden, zoals centjes grabbelen na de viering en stro verbranden om
de boze geesten te verjagen.*

mvg,
Roger

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Hi, Roger and the rest of you Lowlanders!

Pardon me for switching over to English, Roger. This may be a topic some
people want to weigh in that do not read Dutch.

Roger cites a report about a tiny community on the edge of Limburg in which
the first wedding was celebrated in nine years. One of the old traditions
followed at the event was burning of straw to dispel evil spirits. Roger
asks if burning straw at weddings is a tradition in other areas.

To start off, I will have to go beyond the Lowlands and enter my usual, much
larger playground: Eurasia. I think that the straw part is incidental, that
the fire part is all important. Lighting fires for ritual cleansing purposes
is connected with ancient rituals found all over Central Asia all the way
south to parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and as far east as
Xinjiang (Eastern Turkestan) and Qinghai (青海, མཚོ་སྔོན་, Köke Naɣur,
Gökdeñiz), areas under Chinese power.

The tradition of fires at weddings is particularly wide spread among Central
Asians of Iranian and Turkic descent. It seems to belong to an areal
cultural feature that may have emanated from pre-Islamic Iranian cultures.
Among traditional Tajiks and various other Iranian-speaking peoples,
including those living on the eastern slopes of the Pamir Mountains in
China, also among traditional Uzbeks, Uyghurs and other Turkic peoples with
close Iranian ties, a bridebroom and his party fetch the bride from her
parents' home and take her on horseback to the bridegroom's parents' home;
before entering, the couple (with the bridegroom either leading the horse or
sitting on horseback in front of the bride) circumambulates a bonfire three
or more times. This cleansing ritual is required before the bride may enter
her new home.

Fire as a cleansing element plays an important role among traditional
speakers of Iranian languages. Its pre-Islamic importance can be witnessed
in Zoroastrianism where water (*apo*) and fire (*atar*) are elements of
ritual purity. Fire temples serve as strongholds of light and purity, and
there are several purifying rituals involving fire. Zoroastrianism has by
some been described as likely being a remnant of the oldest Eurasian
religion (not counting Shamanism, I suppose). The Iranian language group is
a branch of Indo-European (as is the Germanic group). The name Iran (*
(An)ērān*) is etymologically connected with "Aryan" ("Noble", also the name
of the people that invaded Southern Asia from the north, the name later
misused by the Nazis).

Anyway, even though this may seem a bit farfetched at first thought, I
propose that it is possible that in Europe there are some remnant rituals
that originated in a more widespread, possibly Indo-European feature of fire
as a cleansing power. Who knows? Herstappe may be one of those places where
it survives.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/8d9f138d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 03:25:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:25:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2009.06.21 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.202522.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

Roger cites a report about a tiny community on the edge of Limburg in which
the first wedding was celebrated in nine years. One of the old traditions
followed at the event was burning of straw to dispel evil spirits. Roger
asks if burning straw at weddings is a tradition in other areas.

To start off, I will have to go beyond the Lowlands and enter my usual, much
larger playground: Eurasia. I think that the straw part is incidental, that
the fire part is all important. Lighting fires for ritual cleansing purposes
is connected with ancient rituals found all over Central Asia all the way
south to parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and as far east as
Xinjiang (Eastern Turkestan) and Qinghai (青海,
མཚོ་སྔོན་, Köke Naɣur, Gökdeñiz), areas under Chinese
power.

The tradition of fires at weddings is particularly wide spread among Central
Asians of Iranian and Turkic descent. It seems to belong to an areal
cultural feature that may have emanated from pre-Islamic Iranian cultures.
Among traditional Tajiks and various other Iranian-speaking peoples,
including those living on the eastern slopes of the Pamir Mountains in
China, also among traditional Uzbeks, Uyghurs and other Turkic peoples with
close Iranian ties, a bridebroom and his party fetch the bride from her
parents' home and take her on horseback to the bridegroom's parents' home;
before entering, the couple (with the bridegroom either leading the horse or
sitting on horseback in front of the bride) circumambulates a bonfire three
or more times. This cleansing ritual is required before the bride may enter
her new home.

Fire as a cleansing element plays an important role among traditional
speakers of Iranian languages. Its pre-Islamic importance can be witnessed
in Zoroastrianism where water (*apo*) and fire (*atar*) are elements of
ritual purity. Fire temples serve as strongholds of light and purity, and
there are several purifying rituals involving fire. Zoroastrianism has by
some been described as likely being a remnant of the oldest Eurasian
religion (not counting Shamanism, I suppose). The Iranian language group is
a branch of Indo-European (as is the Germanic group). The name Iran (*
(An)ērān*) is etymologically connected with "Aryan" ("Noble", also the
name of the people that invaded Southern Asia from the north, the name later
misused by the Nazis).

Anyway, even though this may seem a bit farfetched at first thought, I
propose that it is possible that in Europe there are some remnant rituals
that originated in a more widespread, possibly Indo-European feature of fire
as a cleansing power. Who knows? Herstappe may be one of those places where
it survives.


Fascinating. Ireland also has something similar. "Strawboys", who would also
attend weddings, dressed in straw. If they were welcome and hospitably
treated, upon returning, they would burn their straw hats. Otherwise, they
would hang them in the trees, in order to let the other villagers know what
kind of people the bride and groom were.

http://www.shantranex.com/danceworld/strawboys.html

Am wondering if the "Burning Man"-event in Nevada (and "Wickerman" in
Scotland) have not been influenced by this custom.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/7cbcf015/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 14:01:15 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:01:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.22 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUN.2009.070115.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (01) [EN]

Just got back from a Juhannus party in Finland!  Coldest and wettest one
anybody could remember, but a good time had by all.

Paul
Derby
England

From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Holidays

Dear Lowlanders,

I assume that quite a few of you will travel this weekend. This is why I am
sending these holiday greetings out early enough to catch most of you.

On behalf of everyone I wish all fathers, grandfather, great-grandfathers
and father figures on Lowlands-L happy Fathers' Day. Hopefully all of you
will have visitors and get phone calls, cards and email messages.

Also, happy Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice respectively to all of you
to whom these matter!  Happy *Sankt Hans aften* in Denmark, *Jaanipäev *in
Estonia, *juhannus* in Finland, *Sankthansaften* in Norway,
*Midsommarafton*in Sweden,
*Noc Świętojańska* especially in Northern Poland, and many variants of
Midsummer festivals in Britain, Ireland and Man, to name but a few. It is
also the beginning of the month-long *Белые ночи* (White Nights)
for our friends in Russia.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090622/969a1717/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 21:57:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:57:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.22 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUN.2009.145747.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: "Utz H.Woltmann" <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Moin alltohoop!

Vunmorgen hett dat Radio NDR 90,3 vermellt:

"Plattdüütsch Woort 2009

De maroden Geldmärkte wirkt sik op de Sprook ut.
So is "Bankenmalöör" dat plattdüütsch Woort vun dütt Johr worden.
Dat is bi de Reuter-Festspele in Mekelnborg ruutsuurt.
Een besten Snack is ook wählt worden.
De heet: Wenn Du nich weest, ob "mir", ob "mich", snack Plattdüütsch, denn
blameerst di nich."

http://www.ndr903.de/programm/platt/norichten/norichten956.html

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090622/cd8c1cb9/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 23:59:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:59:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.22 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUN.2009.165944.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

Sorry I keep bothering you with the ongoing email problems.

I wrote:

In the meantime, a few of the mailings have arrived in my private mailbox.
Others have not yet arrived, but among them is one to which I already
received a response from one of you. So there appears to be some sort of
spotty back-up situation.

This may mean one of two things: (1) the server does not distribute mailings
as it should, especially during the past three days or so, or (2) the
problem has nothing to do with the server but is due to problems in email
transmission.

If 2 is the case I wonder if it has anything to do with the scramble to get
large volumes of messages out of and into Iran, considering problems related
to governmental communication blocks and innovative ways to circumvent them,
considering also the large number (400,00+) Iranian Americans, especially in
Southern California and in other locations here on the American West Coast,
not to mention large numbers of expatriate Iranians in Europe.

In the meantime I (re)established a Lowlands-L email address (
lowlands at lowlands-l.net) and subscribed it as a control. The two mailings I
sent out to the List today were received at this address, not at my Yahoo
address.

This may mean that Yahoo is has been one of the problem, if not
*the*problem. I wonder if those of you that have Yahoo accounts are
having
similar problems. This may well be a problem related to the communication
scramble and all the back-ups to and from Iran. I heard that Yahoo messaging
is one of the prevalent communication methods in this current situation.

It would also help if those of you that have accounts elsewhere told me if
they have noticed gaps in the flow of LL-L mailings.

By the way, please feel free to use <lowlands at lowlands-l.net> as your
administrative contact with the List. In fact, I would prefer this since it
would keep apart postings and administrative matters.

Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090622/980d5489/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 24 15:01:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:01:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUN.2009.080107.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I'm intrigued by the Scots verb *coff* 'to buy' (ealier also 'to trade'),
past tense *coft*.  An earlier variant of 'to buy' in Scots is *cofe*, with
a long /o/, for the nominal form of 'buy', 'purchase', 'trade', 'bargain'.

Clearly it is related to words for 'to buy' in other Germanic languages. The
/f/ occurs in German *kauf-* and Yiddish *kouf- ~ koyf*, both meaning 'buy'.
Middle German has *kouf-*.

According to the *Oxford English Dictionary*, *coff* is likely to come from
Middle Dutch *côp(en)*, namely from the past tense of older (and still
dialectical) Dutch *koft(e)* (now mostly *kocht(e)*) or the past participial
form, which however, would be *gekoft* (now *gekocht*).

In Low Saxon, the past tense form of *kop(en)* is *köff ~ koff* and the past
participial form is *köft ~ koft* (Middle Saxon *gekoft* ~ *gecoft*).

Of course it stands to reason that a Dutch connection be assumed,
considering Dutch shipping trade with Britain and Dutch-speaking immigration
to Britain, especially to Wales and Scotland. However, we mustn't forget
Saxon-speaking Hanseatic trade with the English and Scotland.

Earlier Scots also has the *coff* or *coffe* for 'dishonest rogue', also
'hawker', apparently from the canting word *coff* 'man', 'guy'. Might this
be connected with the word for 'buy' or 'trade', perhaps in the sense of
'trading partner'?

What cant? Is it Thieves' Cant (a.k.a. Rogues' Cant)? I suppose so, because
it has *cove* 'man', 'fellow'. I can't find a possible equivalent in Romany,
the most obvious source.

Any ideas on any of the above?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090624/17855d07/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 24 21:32:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:32:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUN.2009.143242.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (01) [EN]

Ron, you mention:
Earlier Scots also has the *coff* or *coffe* for 'dishonest rogue', also
'hawker',

Does that have anything to do with Dutch “Schoft” (an amoral, lying lowlife)
German Schuft?

Rain in the forecast,….. please not today!
Jacqueline, Seattle, USA
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Jacqueline.

I believe that Dutch *schoft* and German *Schuft* 'despicable man',
'rapscallion', 'scoundrel', 'villain', ultimately go back to Hebrew *šopheŧ*(
*shofet *שׁוֹפֵט) 'judge', probably imported via Yiddish and Rothwelsch
and/or Bargoens. I assume that it goes back to a secret jargon transmitter
like Rothwelsch because of the typical type of semantic shift expressing
disdain for the establishment and powers that be.

Hebrew *šopheŧ* (*shofet *שׁוֹפֵט) is stressed on the second (i.e. final)
syllable, this being the predominant stress pattern in that language. It is
typical for Hebrew loans in Yiddish and other Germanic languages to receive
Germanic (penultimate) stress and for the unstressed final syllable to
undergo some sort of vowel reduction. The shift Hebrew *shofét* > Yiddish **
shof(e)t*** * > *****shuft* is a predicable one.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: Talking about disdain ... yesterday I saw a bumper sticker saying
"Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed frequently ... for
the same reason."

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090624/b785165c/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 14:24:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:24:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUN.2009.072424.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (01) [EN]

Hi all,

Ron, what about coff being related to scoff as in scornful (Danish skuf)?

OED also gives scoff as supposedly derived from Afrik. schoff (sounds Dutch
to me!)
as in a meal eating period rather than a working period as we know it in
Afrikaans 'skof' (E. shift).

And so that brings me to onbeskof (rude), in die tuin rondskoffel (pottering
in the garden),
skoffel vir ure (dancing), and possibly skobbejak (brute).

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Elsie. Interesting ...

I have a feeling *skoffel* is related to English "shuffle", which is related
to Low Saxon *schüffel-* (with the same meaning), apparently related to
"scuffle", perhaps a frequentative form of a Scandinavian loan (cf. Swedish
*skuf-* 'to push', cf. Low Saxon *schuuv-* 'to push'). "Shuffle" has been
known since the 16th century and may well be a Middle Saxon loan due to
Hanseatic connections (**schuffel-*).

Low Saxon has cognates of *skobbejak*: *Schubbjack ~ Schubbejack ~
Schubberjack* 'rascal', 'scoundrel', 'scallywag'. I can't figure out its
etymology.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090625/0737f1e1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 16:03:56 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:03:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUN.2009.090356.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

Low Saxon has cognates of *skobbejak*: *Schubbjack ~ Schubbejack ~
Schubberjack* 'rascal', 'scoundrel', 'scallywag'. I can't figure out its
etymology.


Just an onset.

There seem to be at least two theories, but they probably converge. The
somewhat more official line sees "schobbejak" (D), "schubjack" (Saxon) as
"schobben" + "jak". The verb "schobben" ( ~ scab, scabies) means "to rub".
Note that "schubjack" is also a pole in the middle of a treeless meadow,
used by cattle with an itch. "Jak" = "Jack, jacket" < jaque (generic name
for a French medieval peasant > diminutive for the blouse he wore).

Schuwjack < szuja (Polish for a villain), suffix created in analogy with
"swienjack" (same meaning).

And then there's the Brabantish pronunciation with a long vowel "schobejak"
(not "schobbejak"). The word also denotes a tight fitting blouse made of a
very coarse fabric that was primarily used by longshoremen (dockers) and was
worn on top. This "schobe" goes back to Middle Dutch "schabbe/schobbe":
shabby ;=) smock.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090625/271ea2ee/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 19:59:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:59:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUN.2009.125942.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (01) [EN]

Ron, Elsie Re: Low Saxon has cognates of *skobbejak*: *Schubbjack ~
Schubbejack ~ Schubberjack* 'rascal', 'scoundrel', 'scallywag'. I can't
figure out its etymology.

Schubben in Dutch are the same as Scale in English. Would this be a slippery
person maybe. There are other examples of descriptions of persons with
qualities derived from animals.

I like f.i. “ongelikte beer” for an uncouth person. Jacqueline
----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (01) [EN]

Elsie:
Dutch schaft (meal break for workmen like in construction and so), frisian
skoft 'short period/break', antwerpian schoofzak, the bag in which the
workers/'arbeiders' take their usually wife-prepared lunch to work

Diederik

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090625/8cc014a1/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 22:24:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:24:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUN.2009.152406.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Andy Eagle <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (01) [EN]

Ron wrote:

 I'm intrigued by the Scots verb *coff* 'to buy' (ealier also 'to trade'),
>
past tense *coft*.  An earlier variant of 'to buy' in Scots is *cofe*, with
a long /o/, for the nominal form of 'buy', 'purchase', 'trade', 'bargain'.

 Clearly it is related to words for 'to buy' in other Germanic languages.
> The
>
/f/ occurs in German *kauf-* and Yiddish *kouf- ~ koyf*, both meaning 'buy'.
Middle German has *kouf-*.

 According to the *Oxford English Dictionary*, *coff* is likely to come from
>
Middle Dutch *côp(en)*, namely from the past tense of older (and still
dialectical) Dutch *koft(e)* (now mostly *kocht(e)*) or the past participial
form, which however, would be *gekoft* (now *gekocht*).

 In Low Saxon, the past tense form of *kop(en)* is *köff ~ koff* and the
> past
>
participial form is *köft ~ koft* (Middle Saxon *gekoft* ~ *gecoft*).

 Of course it stands to reason that a Dutch connection be assumed,
>
considering Dutch shipping trade with Britain and Dutch-speaking immigration
to Britain, especially to Wales and Scotland. However, we mustn't forget
Saxon-speaking Hanseatic trade with the English and Scotland.

Apparently only the form coft was used originally, assumed to be from Middle
Dutch cofte the p.t. and p.p. of the v. copen, to buy. I imagine it was used
by Scots when haggling over the price of goods with Dutch (or Low Saxon)
traders, and when an acceptable price was mentioned, the Scots said 'coft'
i.e. 'bought' to let the seller know they had made a sale. It perhaps then
started to be used more widely as slang, eventually becoming part of the
general vernacular. Since many Scots verbs form the p.t and pp. with 't',
for example fuff > fufft, sauf > sauft, skiff > skifft, swarf > swarft, waff
> wafft etc., the back-formation 'coff' came about by analogy.

Andy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Andy. That's useful.

I have a sneaking suspicion we are talking about Low Saxon contact here,
perhaps very late Hanseatic when in the everyday language of some dialects
the past participial prefix *ge-* began to be dropped.

The reason why I say this is because I don't think you use the past tense in
sealing a deal; you use the past participial, as in a different context in
English "Done!" rather than "Did!" In German you would expect
**Gekauft!*rather than *
*Kaufte!* to mean something like "Deal!"

So in (Late Middle) Dutch I would expect **Gekoft!* (> **Gekocht!*), in
colloquial Northern (Late Middle) Saxon **Koft! ~ ***Köft!*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090625/c2589519/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 15:21:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:21:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.082140.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (04) [EN]

There’s also Russian for ‘to buy’ – *kupit’.*

Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, MD
-------------

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (03) [EN]

Hi all,

Diederik, the OED says about scoff: "...colloq. .....eat greedily
....food; a meal, [...f. Afrik. schoff repr. Du. schoft quarter of a day
(hence meal) : ...orig.var. of dial. scaff, assoc. with the noun]".

So the current Afrikaans meaning, denoting a period of work ('skof'),
relates to the Frisian meaning ('period') but the original dialectical
(scaff) is still prominent in a word such as 'werkskaf' (E. 'dawdle'
or 'dabble').

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (02) [EN]

Leiw' Frünn',

ick hap, ick kam noch nich tau lat.

*Schuft *nd. Wort im Hd. Vgl. Schurke
*Schurke **Schurk *m. Pl. *Schurken. Syn  Schubbjack, Schuft, Beist,
Windhund, Kanallje, Lump *(Neues hd-pd Wörterbuch, R. Herrmann-Winter)
**
Nu Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*Schuft *m. Schurke a. Spr. lichtscheuer Raubritter: 'des Juncker Torcken
Schuffte'.
*Schuffjack,* Schuftjack s. *Schubjack.*
*schuftig *schurkisch
*Schubjack**  *(*u* kurz) m. Lausekerl; Schuft: *Schubjack *träger und von
gewissen Tierchen gepeinigter Mensch. *Schuwwjack
(-bb-)*verachtungswürdiges Subjekt, mit Ungeziefer behafteter Kerl,
der sich immer
juckt;*  Schuwwjack *Schmutzfink Hans;
*Schubbjack *Lausekerl; *Schuwjack*  unsauberer Mensch; *Schubjack *schlecht
gekleideter Mensch, Schelm SchöDem;
*so'n Schubbejack von Kirl . . . negenklauk, hinnerlistig *Reut.: *'n groten
Schuffjack*  Ast; *de oll Schuffjack*  (Scheltname des Storchs).
In den Wbb. der nd. Nachbarlandschaften wird die Bedeutung 'ein Mensch, der
sich vor Unreinigkeit oder Ungeziefer mit (in) der Jacke schubbt (scheuert)'
angegeben: *Schubbejak. Schubbjakk, Schubbejack, Schubbiack.*
S c h u b j a c k e n  als Vogelscheuche im Winde hin und her wehen: *dat
schubbjackt ümmer hen un her.*  s c h u b j a c k i g  lumpig gekleidet: *sonn
. . . schowjackige Ballastschüwers*  Pl.  die Ballastschieber.

Na, nu langt dat woll.

Von Harten mien Gräuten.
Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/02d4095b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 17:38:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:38:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.103842.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Hannelore,

You wrote:

*Schuffjack,* Schuftjack s. *Schubjack.*
*schuftig *schurkisch
*Schubjack**  *(*u* kurz) m. Lausekerl; Schuft: *Schubjack *träger und
von gewissen Tierchen gepeinigter Mensch. *Schuwwjack
(-bb-)*verachtungswürdiges Subjekt, mit Ungeziefer behafteter Kerl,
der sich immer
juckt;*  Schuwwjack *Schmutzfink Hans;
*Schubbjack *Lausekerl; *Schuwjack*  unsauberer Mensch; *Schubjack *schlecht
gekleideter Mensch, Schelm SchöDem;
*so'n Schubbejack von Kirl . . . negenklauk, hinnerlistig *Reut.: *'n groten
Schuffjack*  Ast; *de oll Schuffjack*  (Scheltname des Storchs).
In den Wbb. der nd. Nachbarlandschaften wird die Bedeutung 'ein Mensch, der
sich vor Unreinigkeit oder Ungeziefer mit (in) der Jacke schubbt (scheuert)'
angegeben: *Schubbejak. Schubbjakk, Schubbejack, Schubbiack.*
S c h u b j a c k e n  als Vogelscheuche im Winde hin und her wehen: *dat
schubbjackt ümmer hen un her.*  s c h u b j a c k i g  lumpig gekleidet:
*sonn . . . schowjackige Ballastschüwers*  Pl.  die Ballastschieber.


Two frequently found Polish surnames seem to be related to this word:
Skubiak and Skobiak

Btw, I asked my dad how he pronounces the word, and his version goes like
"skubiak", meaning rascal (~ racaille, famous word that caused N. Sarkozy a
lot of trouble), whereas my mum says "schobejak", with the same meaning.

Schobiak is also the name of an old Flemish ship:

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/media/thumbnails.php?album=2361<http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/media/albums/ftp/tjlkn_allerlei_1/denoedenschobiak2005.jpg>

(Roland Desnerck may know it since the pix seem to be taken in Ostend)

And both of a Flemish squire and a beer dedicated to him in Ardooie:

http://www.saveur-biere.com/etiquettes-bieres/biere-skobiak.gif

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Since yesterday I have been thinking about a surname in this connection too,
Luc. But I've been thinking about Szubiak which is pronounced like Low Saxon
*Schubjack* ([ˈʃʊbjak]).

Is this name "Polish Polish" or is it Kashubian or Slovincian? Does anyone
know?

Cześć!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/24f19a08/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 18:33:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:33:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.113314.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

Since yesterday I have been thinking about a surname in this connection too,
Luc. But I've been thinking about Szubiak which is pronounced like Low Saxon
*Schubjack* ([Àà É äbjak]).

Is this name "Polish Polish" or is it Kashubian or Slovincian? Does anyone
know?


Geographical distribution of Szubiak:

http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/szubiak.html

I have a feeling that different words may have collided. Is Szubiak related
to Sawczak? Sawczak seems to be more popular (more evenly distributed), so
maybe Szubiak is a regional variant? Szubiak also exists in Slovakian, and
even some people in Hungary have this surname. Could Szubiak be a
germanisation of Sawczak?

Unfortunately, my Slavic knowledge is virtually zero.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/9bb0e48e/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 21:33:25 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:33:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.143325.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Andy Eagle <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (04) [EN]

Ron wrote:

 I have a sneaking suspicion we are talking about Low Saxon contact here,
>
perhaps very late Hanseatic when in the everyday language of some dialects
the past participial prefix *ge-* began to be dropped.

I have a feeling there are quite a few Low Saxons loans from the Hanseatic
era. In etymologies they tend to be lumped together under (Middle) Dutch.

 The reason why I say this is because I don't think you use the past tense
> in
>
sealing a deal; you use the past participial, as in a different context in
English "Done!" rather than "Did!" In German you would expect
**Gekauft!*rather than *
*Kaufte!* to mean something like "Deal!"

 So in (Late Middle) Dutch I would expect **Gekoft!* (> **Gekocht!*), in
>
colloquial Northern (Late Middle) Saxon **Koft! ~ ***Köft!*

DOST indicates that 'coft' came to be used commonly from around 1500. How
does that fit in with the Low Saxon pronunciation of the time?

Andy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Andy,

I have a feeling it fits, e.g. Middle Saxon:

*Dit is, wat ik **in de molen koft hebbe ...*
(This is what I *have bought* in the mill ...)

*... en man hadde acker koft ...*
(... and they *had bought* some agricultural land ...)
[Gadebusch Register 1451]

*... dat se dat gud vmme rede gelt koft hebben ...*
(... that they *had bought* the estate with cash ...)
[document from London's Steelyard (1303-1469]

So, **Koft!* for ("Bought!" =) "Deal!" seems entirely possible.

Around the same time *gekoft* occurs also, which seems to indicate that the
past participial prefix *ge-* was fading away in certain northern dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/5654317b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 22:24:12 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:24:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.26 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.152412.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I wrote under "Etymology":

*... dat se dat gud vmme rede gelt koft hebben ...*
(... that they *had bought* the estate with cash ...)
[document from London's Steelyard (1303-1469]

In this context it's better to translate it "... that they had bought the
merchandise with (ready) cash ...".

We are talking about the Steelyard, a compound in London on the north bank
of the Thames by the outflow of the Walbrook, close to Cannon Street
Station. It was the Hanseatic Trading League's walled compound with
warehouses, offices, counting houses, weighing houses, a chapel and
residential quarters. As a regular church, the residents used
All-Hallows-the-Great, which was destroyed in the fire of 1666.

My dates were wrong. 1303 seems correct. Elizabeth I recinded the Hanseatic
privileges in 1598, because the merchants were much too successful and thus
competed with the city. James I reinstated them, but the Steelyard never
regained its greatness. It was never dissolved and officially functioned as
a sort of informal North German embassy to Whitehall until after the
Napoleonic Wars during whose European Blockade it came in handy. The
Hanseatic cities Hamburg, Bremen and Lübeck appointed the Scottish merchant
Patrick Colquhoun to their resident minister and consul general while they
were being occupied by France until 1815. The three cities, that had shared
the Steelyard, sold the property in 1853, and Cannon Street Station was
built on that site in
1866.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelyard#cite_note-3>In 1988,
remnants of the Steelyard's trading house were discovered, and a
plaque now commemorates the site.

Other Hanseatic communities in Britain used to be located in Aberdeen,
Berwick upon Tweed, Boston, Edinburgh, Great Yarmouth, Hull, Ipswich, King's
Lynn, Newcastle and York.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/6f6f657d/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 22:25:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:25:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (06) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.152542.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (03) [EN]

Beste Ron un Luc,

hm, wat nu. . . Wat ick noch vermellen künn... ? Kiekt jug dat mal an:

*Schuft:* Das im 17. Jh. aus dem *Niederl. *ins *Hochd.* übernommene
Schimpfwort bezeichnete zuerst den heruntergekommenen Edelmann, dann
allgemein einen gemeinen, niederträchtigen Menschen. Möglicherweise ist es
zusammengezogen aus *niederl. Schufut *"Uhu; elender Mensch"  (18.Jh.) *mnd.
*schüvüt "Uhu", einem ursprünglich lautnachahmenden Wort. Der Name des
lichtscheuen, als häßlich verschrienen Vogels wäre dann auf den Menschen
übertragen worden.
*Schurke* "Bösewicht, Schuft": Das erst seit dem 17. Jh. als Schurk[e],
Schork bezeugte *dt. *Substandtiv  (*niederl. *schurk, *schwed. *skurk sind
entlehnt) ist nicht sicher erklärt. Abl.: *Schurkerei *"schurkische Tat"
(17. Jh.;* schurkisch *"gemein, niederträchtig" (17. Jh.).
DUDEN Band 7  Etymologie DUDENVERLAG Mannheim/Wien/Zürich1989

Mihr weit ick nu ok nich.

Gaud Nacht Lowischen (Kosewort: Luise), fief Pennings liggen up de Trepp'.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/0c10d037/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 19:31:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:31:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.27 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.123147.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.26 (05) [EN]

 Dear Reinhard, one curious question about "Steelyard": Did it have anything
to do with steel?! I looked it up on Wikipedia, but they say nothing about
the word's etymology, and the German Wikipedia spells the English version
"Stiliard" alternatively. I thougt (naively) that "Stalhof" had something to
do with stables. Wrong again? :-)

Hartlich!

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holstein)


----- Original Message -----
 *From:* Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>
*To:* LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
*Sent:* Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:24 AM
*Subject:* LL-L "History" 2009.06.26 (05) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology


We are talking about the Steelyard, ...

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Marlou!

And it's a good question, too.

Here is what the English Wikipedia says:

The Steelyard gave its name to a type of portable balance, consisting of a
graduated horizontal metal beam suspended on a chain. The whole balance
would be hung from a roof beam. A heavy object to be weighed, for instance a
sack of flour, would be hung on the shorter end of the beam, while lesser
but known weights would be slid along the other, longer end, till the beam
balanced. The weight of the sack could then be calculated by multiplying the
sum of the known weights by the ratio of the distances from the beam's
fulcrum.

The common non-English names -- German *Stahlhof*, Low Saxon *Stahlhoff*,
Dutch *Stalhof*, Russian *Стальной двор* -- refer to "yard" as "court" or
"courtyard", here in the sense of "compound". The English noun "steelyard"
denotes a weighing device, in which "yard" does not mean "courtyard". In
this case it was a large version of an ordinary steelyard balance (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelyard_balance), German *Handwaage* or *
Schnellwaage*, Low Saxon *Ünzner* or* Ünstel*, Dutch *unster*, Russian *
безмен*.

So it seems to me that this is either a case of misunderstanding of "yard"
or a case of word play in naming the compound.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/fb9d511b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 19:33:16 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:33:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.27 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.123316.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (04) [EN]

Liebe Freunde
(ich fasse mich kurz, muß noch *Englisch *lernen.)

"Ich habe mir etwas gekauft". "Ick heff mi wat köfft". Was fällt euch da
auf, richtig! Das Präfix *ge*

*köpen, *Präs. *köp, köffst, köfft; *Prät. *köfft* kaufen, Mi 45 a :(F.G.
Sibeth), Wörterbuch der Mecklenburgisch-Vorpommerschen Mundart, Leipzig
1876. Nachträge im Handexemplar des Verfassers. - Stahl: Geschicht von den
rieken Hamborger Kopmann Peter Stahl. Schwerin 1870. Wossidlo/Teuchert.
mercari 'kopen' (1585); a. Spr. auch mit etwas handeln: 'nemant schal korn
kopen edder nenerleye kopenscop buten den doren, ere id kumpt over ene
twerstrate' (Ro: Stadt Rostock um 1475); sonst auch dingen, mieten:* he
hadd' 'n poor Berliner köfft *als Dienstboten Wa: Stadt Waren; abkaufen: *sei
köpen em all' 'n Bessen *WaJab: WarenJabel;*  ick heff mi hierher köfft*
mich hier angekauft  LuWarl: LudwigslustWarlow; an einen Dummkopf:* köp di
för 'n Schilling Insichten *RoRibn: RostockRibnitz;  *wat ick mi dorför
(Dank) köp, stäk 'ck mi an 'n Haut* ist wertlos RostockBentwisch; mit refl.
Dativ:* sick einen köpen* entweder sich betrinken, eig. sich einen (Rausch)
kaufen Schö: Schönberg, oder sich jem. vornehmen, um ihn auszuschelten oder
mit Prügeln abzustrafen RoKlock.: RostockKlockenhagen.
Zss. :* af-, be-, er-, haaker-, in-, los-, ut-, verköpen.*
Aber: De Kop : der Kauf; Verkauf; de Köper Pl. : der Käufer
Stoßseufzer: *is schad', dat dei besten Köpers ümmer kein Geld
hebben*GüLTrech: GüstrowLangenTrechow; von jem., der viele
Bauernstellen
besichtigt, ohne eine zu kaufen:*  dat is kein Köper, dat is 'n Löper *HaWitt:
HagenowWittenburg.

*kaken *kochen, die Speisen zubereiten; die Wichtigkeit dieser Arbeit
betont:*  wenn dat leiw' Ätenkaken nich wir, hadd' dat ganze Dörp an ein
Frugensminsch naug*  RoDierh: RostockDierhagen
*kaken, Flex Präs. ik kak, du kaakst, hei kakt, wi kaken; *Prät. *kakte,
kakten (kaakten);*
Part.Prät. *kakt (kaakt).*
**
Ende. "Ick möt an 'n Hierd ! "    (Dat rückt all so anbrennt...)

(Wossidlo/Teuchert und eigene Sammlung)

Herzliche Grüße.

Hanne-Koeksch (Köchin)

----------

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Präfix *ge*

Liebe Freunde,

oft kleiden wir in nd. Sprache ein Wort mit der Vorsilbe *ge . . .*
**
*ge- *untrennbare Vorsilbe, as. *gi-, *mnd.* ge-,* fehlt der lebenden
Mundart im Gegegensatz zum Mnd. und Hd. gänzlich im  P a r t.  P e r f. der
Verben, abgesehen von einigen zu Adjektiven gewordenen Partizipien
wie *geduwwelt, -lägen, -lihrt, -stuukt, -tacht,* tritt, zum Teil unter hd.
Einfluß, in V e r b e n auf wie *gebären, -biren, -böhren, -düren, -fallen,
-neiten, -raden, -rüen, -sägen, -wennen *und ist ungemein häufig in
S u b s t a n t i v e n: *a. *ein Zusammensein ausdrückend in männlichen
Wörtern wie *Gebuer, -mähl, -not, -sell, -sinn', -vadder, -vedder ;*
*b. *Gleichartiges zusammenfassend in Neutren wie *Gebein, -bläum, -bläut,
-dirm, -fack, -hüls', -hüs', -kräus', -krüter, -läg', -läus', -mäus',
-möbel, -riff, -sling', -smuck, -söff, -stäuhlt, -tüügs, *oft in Anlehnung
an Verben wie in *Geback, -dränk, -lat, -päck, -rüst, -schirr, -spann;*
*c.*  das Ergebnis einer Tätigkeit oder eines Vorgangs bezeichnend wie
in*Gebackels, -brugels, -mäl, -rankels, -smöltes, -späukels, -swulst,
-swür ;
**d. *unmittelbar von Verben gebildet, Wiederholung oder Dauer ausdrückend,
bes. von Geräuschen und Bewegungen, oft mit *tadelnden* Nebensinn, z.B. *Geät,
-barm, -bauz, -beier, -blaff, -bölk,*
*-brawwel, -brensch, ....-strid', -swäug, -tagel, -tas'; **e. *verstärkend
oder verallgemeinernd in gelegentlichen Bildungen wie *Gerädensoort,
Gerüümlichkeit, Gestift; **f. *als Abschwächung unbetonter Anfangssilben in
Wörtern wie *Gebüff *aus *Kabüff, Getüffel *aus *Kantüffel, Gestüm
*aus *Kostüm;
*seltener in  A d j e k t i v e n , teilweise in Anlehnung aus Hd.,
wie *gemein,
-nau, -recht, -ruhig, -sund, -troost,*
*-tru, -tutig,; gepackt *ist Umbildung von *kompakt. *A u s f a l l  d e s
V o k a l s  der Vorsilbe ist wie im Hd. nicht selten vor *l; *z. B. *glik,
*woneben *lik *noch sehr gebräuchlich ist und fast stets *liker, likers,
likerst *(dennoch) und *liksterwelt *(ganz gleich, genau so); *glinn',*woneben
*gelinn' *und *linn' *auftreten: *Glow', Globen, glöben *neben *löben; *vor
*n*  in *Gnad', Gnick; *vor *r *in *grad'; *überwiegend ohne Vorsilbe sind
in Gebrauch *Läus' *(Geleise) und *Lenk *(Gelenk) wie auch sonst, namentlich
in ä. Spr., vielfach noch Wortformen ohne die Vorsilbe auftreten.

Ick heff dat *Geblaff * von Nahwers Hunn' satt.

Jug alltohopen 'n sinnigen (besinnlichen) Sünndag.

Hanne

(Dit all bi wäglang mit Wossidlo/Teuchert)

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/7ed22b05/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 20:08:25 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:08:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.27 (03) [AF]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.130825.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: dealangeam <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: ?? LL_L "Etymology" [A]

Beste Ron en Laaglanders,

Ron skryf:

>So, *Koft! for ("Bought!" =) "Deal!" seems entirely possible.

>Around the same time gekoft occurs also, which seems to
>indicate that the past participial prefix ge_ was fading away
>in certain northern dialects.

In Afrikaans het 'n baie interessante ontwikkeling plaasgevind.
As kind het ek gehoor hoe ou mense (van Voortrekker afkoms)
'n verhaal begin met "Toe ....". Daarna is die verlede tyd in die
verhaal vervang met die teenwoordige tyd. Die "Toe...." het as
'n tyd merker in die verlede gewerk.

Hier is 'n voorbeeld:
(1) Die verhaal in die verlede tyd.
Ons het die grond gekoop. Daarna het ons 'n huis daarop gebou.
Vervolgens het ons meubels daarin geplaas. Ons het uiteindelik
ingetrek.
     (2) Die verhaal met die "Toe...." merker.
     Toe koop ons die grond. Ons bou 'n huis daarop. Ons plaas
     meubels daarin. Uiteindelik trek ons in.

Voordele
Spaarsamiger woord gebruik
(1) 22 woorde
     (2) 18 woorde
Lewe
(1) Die verlede is dooierig
     (2) Die verlede bly lewendig
Oorsaak en gevolg
(1) Noodsaak voltooide verlede tyd indien nodig om verder
terug te gaan in tyd
     (2) Gebruik bloot die verlede tyd
Struktuur en funksie
(1) Naamwoorde word selde as werkwoorde gebruik en
omgekeerd. Dieselfde geld vir bywoorde van naam- en
werkwoorde.
     (2) Omruiling van naamwoorde en werkwoorde asook
     hulle bywoorde vind veel gemakliker plaas.

Die tyd merker vir die toekoms is "So....".
Met hierdie twee tydmerkers kon altesaam 9 verskillende tye
uitgedruk word deur net drie eenvoudige tye te gebruik:
verlede, hede en toekoms. Hoe kragtig is dit nie!

Hier kom die gatslag. Op laer- en hoërskool is ons verbied om
verhale en verslae te begin met "Toe...." en "So....". Dit was glo
slegte Afrikaans. Vir my was dit so onnodig. Maar ek kon al die
straf uiteindelik nie meer verduur nie. Ek het opgehou om die
twee tydmerkers te gebruik. Dit het deur dwang uitgesterf.
‘n Mens hoor dit nie meer nie, behalwe in die verafgeleë
platteland.

Eers in die 1980's het ek begin vermoed dat Afrikaans 'n
ontluiking ("emergence") was van die 1600's se Hollands en
Nederduits. Die gangbare veronderstelling van taalkundiges was
dat Afrikaans eerder 'n dialek van vereenvoudigde Nederlands
is. Dit is nog steeds so. Maar net so erg is ek meer oortuig dat
Afrikaans eerder 'n ontluiking was.

Ron, jy en ander Laaglanders het soveel ou geskrifte om die
evolusie van die tydmerkers "Toe...." en "So...." te kan nagaan
in al die laaglandse tale. Ek verneem graag met tyd julle
vermoedens, menings en bevindings. Miskien versterk dit my
oortuiging dat Afrikaans 'n ontluiking eerder as 'n kreolisering
was.

Mooi loop

At de Lange
Pretoria

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Baie dankie, beste At, vir die interessant beskrywings en die eweseer
interessant gedagtes.

Dit mag intereseer jou dat Nedersaksies* 'n analoog woord het:
*do*(uitspraak: dou). Maar deesdae gebruik baie mense in
Noordduitsland dit nie
meer nie, omdat woorde sonder Duits ekwivalente verdwyn as uitslag van
"verduitsing". In sekere gevalle sê baie mense nou *daar* (of *dor* or *da*)
in plaas van *do*, omdat dit in baie gevalle die ekwivalent van Duits *da*is.

* "Nederduits" bedoel ook 'n taalgroep: Nederfrankies (Nederlands, Afrikaans
ens.) tesaam met Nedersaksies. In hierdie taalkundige konteks is
"Nedersaksies" enigsins presieser.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/37e0ca55/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 22:04:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:04:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.150400.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Folks,

I wrote about the Hanseatic Steelyard in London:

Here is what the English Wikipedia says:

The Steelyard gave its name to a type of portable balance, consisting of a
graduated horizontal metal beam suspended on a chain. The whole balance
would be hung from a roof beam. A heavy object to be weighed, for instance a
sack of flour, would be hung on the shorter end of the beam, while lesser
but known weights would be slid along the other, longer end, till the beam
balanced. The weight of the sack could then be calculated by multiplying the
sum of the known weights by the ratio of the distances from the beam's
fulcrum.

The common non-English names -- German *Stahlhof*, Low Saxon *Stahlhoff*,
Dutch *Stalhof*, Russian *Стальной двор* -- refer to "yard" as "court" or
"courtyard", here in the sense of "compound". The English noun "steelyard"
denotes a weighing device, in which "yard" does not mean "courtyard". In
this case it was a large version of an ordinary steelyard balance (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelyard_balance), German *Handwaage* or *
Schnellwaage*, Low Saxon *Ünzner* or* Ünstel*, Dutch *unster*, Russian *
безмен*.

So it seems to me that this is either a case of misunderstanding of "yard"
or a case of word play in naming the compound.

The steelyard is, of course, a very old device. Roman steelyards from the
2nd century CE have been unearthed in Britain, and the history of the
steelyard (秤) in China goes back to at least 200 BCE. But an ordinary
steelyard is relatively small, as the component "yard" suggests, also the
Low Saxon and Dutch terms (*Ünzner*,* Ünstel*, *unster*) that seem to refer
to "ounce".

I imagine that the Hanseatic merchants' large steelyard-like device for
weighing sacks, bales and the like was new to the people of London, that it
was affixed high enough for ordinary people to be able see it on the other
side of the compound walls, and that this gave the compound its name.
(Historical descriptions talk of gates, which suggests that access to the
compound was controlled.)

Marlou mentions that at one point the German Wikipedia uses the name *
Stiliard*.* I have done some further research. (Please go to the end to find
recommendations.) There are indications that *Stiliard* was indeed the name
and spelling used by the "Easterlings", as the resident Hanseatic people
from the North Sea and Baltic Sea coasts and from Cologne were referred to
by the English. In other words, they used the *English* name, at least at
first. *Stahlhof* etc. seem to have come in later, and their coinage may be
due to misunderstanding or wordplay, as I said earlier.

(* This spelling is interesting in that it shows that [i:] had by that time
become the local English pronunciation of written "ee", previously
pronounced [e:].)

The *Encyclopæedia Britannica* turns it around by saying:

in the later Middle Ages, members of the Hanseatic League, an association of
north German towns, who resided at its London establishment, known as the
Steelyard (probably from Low German *stâlgard,* a courtyard).

This would make sense only if the actual meaning of **stâlgard* were
explained and if this word could be verified anywhere.

Schiller-Lübben (*Mittelniederdeutsches Wörterbuch*, 1881) suspect that the
name *Stâl-hof* (modern *Stahlhoff*) has nothing to do with "steel", that
the English translation Steel-yard is based on misunderstanding. They
consider two possibilities:

   1. < **Stadel-hof *< *stadel *'(small) place', 'spot for displaying or
   storing wares' (diminutive of *stad*, related to English "stead")
   2. < **stalen* < French *étaler* < *estaler* 'to display (wares), related
   to English "stall" as in "market stall" -- so, "display compound" (not all
   that far off from Marlou's *Stall* (stable) assumption)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Recommended:

   - Reinhold Pauli, *Der Hanseatische Stahlhof in London*, Bremen, 1856
   (German)
   http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25999/25999-h/25999-h.htm
   - Reingard Esser, "Germans in Early Modern Britain", in P. Panayi
ed. *Germans
   in Britain since 1500*, London, 1998
   http://books.google.com/books?id=Vsw_WrvbD_UC
   Illustration: p. 33
   - Philippe Dollinger, *The German Hansa*, Stanford, 1970.
   http://tinyurl.com/ljgrob

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/b400cec9/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 22:24:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:24:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.27 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.152407.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders, especially those of you that have Yahoo accounts,

Here's a follow-up message regarding the mailing transmission problems of
late.

Yahoo has finally admitted that it is due to problems they are having with
external filtering software. They promised to fix the problem, but so far it
persists, while I get all mailings at lowlands at lowlands-l.net.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/303868b4/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 00:17:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:17:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.27 (05) [AF-NL]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.171733.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste At,
You wrote:

Miskien versterk dit my
oortuiging dat Afrikaans 'n ontluiking eerder as 'n kreolisering
was.


Ook een bloem die ontluikt kan dit niet zonder voldoende licht, water en
grond. Een Afrikaanse bloem heeft zo haar wortels in Afrikaanse grond, maar
het zaad kwam uit Europa. Als je ziet hoe dat zelfde zaad in
Nederlands-Indië heeft wortel geschoten, dan krijg je een heel andere bloem.
Zo flexibel kan het leven zijn...maar ook zo hard...want als de bodem
uitgemergeld geraakt...dan volstaan licht en water niet meer.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/c5c7bdcb/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 00:19:01 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:19:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.171901.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (04) [EN]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote
Subject: History

One was set up outside a church in Edinburgh's High Street, probably after
1603 for market prodice to be weighed prior to selling at the market
adjacent to St Giles High Church.Scots referred to the device as a "TRON"
and the church where it was situated is still called The Tron Church. Long
abandoned an enterprising local gained access in Vistorin Times
and established an illicit whisky still. He ran the vent up into the steeple
so the smells op distilling wafted well above the city.
I recall steelyards being used in Edinburgh butchers' shops in the 1940's.

On 28/06/2009, at 8:04 AM, Lowlands-L List wrote:

The Steelyard gave its name to a type of portable balance, consisting of a
graduated horizontal metal beam suspended on a chain. The whole balance
would be hung from a roof beam. A heavy object to be weighed, for instance a
sack of flour, would be hung on the shorter end of the beam, while lesser
but known weights would be slid along the other, longer end, till the beam
balanced. The weight of the sack could then be calculated by multiplying the
sum of the known weights by the ratio of the distances from the beam's
fulcrum.


  Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane
AUSTRALIA
"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,
Tae see oorsels as ithers see us
Robert Burn

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/cc70aa65/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 01:49:56 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:49:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.184956.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 07
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote
Subject: History

Our Tom (Mc Rae) wrote:

One was set up outside a church in Edinburgh's High Street, probably after
1603 for market prodice to be weighed prior to selling at the market
adjacent to St Giles High Church.
Scots referred to the device as a "TRON" and the church where it was
situated is still called The Tron Church. Long abandoned an enterprising
local gained access in Vistorin Times
and established an illicit whisky still. He ran the vent up into the steeple
so the smells op distilling wafted well above the city.
I recall steelyards being used in Edinburgh butchers' shops in the 1940's.

The *Oxford English Dictionary* says among other things:

*tron, trone** n.*
Sc. and north. dial.
[ME. a. OF. trone (Godef.) -- L. *trulina*, a. Gr. *τρυτάνη *balance, pair
of scales.]
1. (Chiefly Sc.) A weighing machine; a pair of scales or other machine for
weighing merchandise; a public weighing apparatus in a city or (burgh) town;
also called ‘the king's trone’. Now *Hist*.
  b. The post of this was used as a pillory, or place of public exposure and
punishment of offenders.
  c. Contextually, The place where the tron was set up; a market-place,
market; in quot. 1821 *fig*.
  d. Short for *tron weight*
2. (*pl.*) *north. dial.* A weighing-machine; a pair of scales, a steelyard
or spring balance.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/0358af28/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 15:34:16 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.28 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.083416.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (07) [EN]

On 28/06/2009, at 11:49 AM, Tom (Mc Rae) wrote:

One was set up outside a church in Edinburgh's High Street, probably after
1603 for market produce to be weighed prior to selling at the market
adjacent to St Giles High Church.


On reflection I can't help wondering if those devices were introduced to
Scotland much earlier  when the Flemish weavers came and set up their
communities.
Such weavers would have required a weighing device for their wool purchases.
Had the device come from England it would probably have been called a
 steelyard or steleyaird.

  Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane
AUSTRALIA
"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,
Tae see oorsels as ithers see us
Robert Burns

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (04) [EN]

 Thanks for all these interesting explanations on "Steelyard", dear Reinhard
& Tom! So "Steel-yard" was originally an English word and means something
like "Stell-Balken" or "Eisen-Balken" either for the beam itself or for the
iron counterweights. (Being a lay person, I like things simple and I like
the idea that *one* explanation is "true" :-)) And the "Easterlings", after
first taking "steelyard" as a Fremdwort and writing it "Stiliard", later
translated it naively into "Stahlhof", mistaking the true meaning. I love
this. Maybe the word was so old they couldn't make out the true etymology
even then?

Hartlich

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.26 (05) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
Subject: Etymology

In 1988,
remnants of the Steelyard's trading house were discovered, and a plaque now
commemorates the site.

The excavation was by the Museum of London Archaeology Service, and the
finds are in the Museum of London (including a carved stone eagle).  The
deeds to cannon street station include its sale from the Hanse.
Eagle and deed were both exhibited at an exhibition on the Hanse in the
about 20 years ago at Hamburg and Rostock - interested parties might be able
to find the catalogue via a library.

I have fond memories of this exhibition, as I couriered the objects back
from Rostock, just after the Berlin Wall had fallen (but before the decision
for reunification had been taken).

Cheers,

Pat

-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/2c30d463/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 15:36:43 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:36:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.28 (02) [AF]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.083643.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.27 (03) [AF]

Beste At:

Onderwerp: LL_L "Etymology"

Betreffende u verslag oor die 'toe' en 'so'; die historiese verlede en
toekomstige tyd:
U opmerking;
'Hier kom die gatslag. Op laer- en hoërskool is ons verbied om
verhale en verslae te begin met "Toe...." en "So....".'

Ek kan dit insien dat jou onnies sterk daarteen gekant is, ter wille van
voldoende afgeronde taalleer, maar ek aanvaar nie dat dit die Taal as geheel
en sy sprekers in hierdie verarmende gebruik gesteen moet wees.

En dit is wel die geval. Lees maar 'n roman, hoor maar 'n storie op straat,
en sidaar, uit kom die historiese verlede tyd, hetsy met of sonder die
verraaderlike 'toe'. So ook met die 'so'. in die mond van 'n vernuftige
kalant met 'n geslepe plan. Onlangs het 'n mede-inskrywer wat o.a. in
Afrikaans belang stel Dalene Mathee se 'Kringe in die Bos' probeer takel, as
ek reg onthou, en verstommend die einste geaardheid van Afrikaanse
verhaalkunde waargemerk. Klim saam terug in die historiese verlede, man!

Groete,
Die Uwe,
Mark.

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/6ee3e88b/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 21:09:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:09:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.28 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.140911.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

On an Anlgo-Saxon discussion group somebody mentioned the Northern
English/Midlands expression "mi ol' mucker", a term for "my old friend" or
similar.  They mentioned a similar modern Saxon * min ole makker*, and a
German-speaker said there was a modern H. German *Macker*, which he believes
is of Lowlands origin.

The question was how far back this connection went to English; is from
Dutch/Flemish sailors and traders in the Middle Ages to 18thC, or back as
far as Old English?

Any Lowlanders got any knowledge of the expression and its possible history?

Paul
Derby
England

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/8b77f846/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 21:16:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:16:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.28 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.141659.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (06) [EN]

Still one of the most effective and accurate methods of measuring mass, as
opposed to weight.  A sixty kilogram mass measured with a steelyard on the
Moon would show as 60kg.  On a bathroom scale or any kind of spring balance,
it would show 10kg.

Paul

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Marlou,

You wrote:

 Thanks for all these interesting explanations on "Steelyard", dear Reinhard
> & Tom! So "Steel-yard" was originally an English word and means something
> like "Stell-Balken" or "Eisen-Balken" either for the beam itself or for the
> iron counterweights. (Being a lay person, I like things simple and I like
> the idea that *one* explanation is "true" :-)) And the "Easterlings", after
> first taking "steelyard" as a Fremdwort and writing it "Stiliard", later
> translated it naively into "Stahlhof", mistaking the true meaning. I love
> this. Maybe the word was so old they couldn't make out the true etymology
> even then?
>

Don't want to burst your bubble...but...I don't find it obvious to call a
place after one object that was used on those grounds ("pars pro toto").
Even if that object was quintessential for the very purpose of that place.
This custom does happen with buildings that get nicknames after becoming
popular, but in the case of a transnational foundation like the Steelyard, I
find it less likely.

The "Stahlhof" in London was originally created by merchants from Cologne
who wanted to display and sell their goods to an English public. Well, "to
display" can be translated as "uit-stallen" in Dutch (~ étaler, estaler in
French, which in turn < stallen, stellen (D) ~ stallion, Stallone, to
install). There's a "Stalhof" in Ghent too by the way. Grimm quotes Kiliaen
regarding "stael-hof":

http://tinyurl.com/lpd59d

Secondary influence could come from the expression "staelen het laecken",
which refers to the act of tagging cloth with a leaden seal (compare
Leadenhall). This verb "staelen" is cognate with Dutch "staal", a sample. I
think this influence is only secondary because I'm not sure if the Rhineland
was famous for sheets and wool back then. Of course, along the way, Rhenish
merchants may well have stocked up on Flemish cloth, trying to sell it later
on in London. Early transport was by road (Köln > Brussels > Ghent >
Bruges), only later by ship.

Finally, the English may have reinterpreted the second meaning, creating a
name for a scale-beam (which we call "nen uisel" (B), ~ ounce), case of
totum pro parte.

There are also two communities in Rhineland-Palatinate, called Stahlhofen,
and some of the pioneers may well have come from this region, but I doubt
whether that may have played a big role in the original namegiving.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Makes sense, Luc, and is consistent with the other source I cited.

German has *ausstellen* for 'to display', 'to exhibit', and *stellen *is an
umlauted form of *stallen*.

I think the confusion arises because of vowel length differences.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/5afe18b5/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 02:18:23 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:18:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.28 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.191823.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.28 (04) [EN]

Dear Luc, you are welcome to burst any bubble of mine with something so much
more interesting! :-) Do you mean to say that "Stahlhof" is *not* a
translation of "Steelyard" and the ping-pong of this word between the
languages has not really taken place? "Stahlhof" and "Steelyard" (tha
balance) each have an etymology of their own? But it is quite a lot of a
coincidence that they seem to be translations, hm? Or do I get you wrong?

Hartlich

Marlou

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

As the plot keeps thickening it is beginning to look to me as though Middle
English "Steelyard" and Modern German *Stahlhof* are mistranslations of
Middle Saxon *Stalhof*.

I wrote:

I think the confusion arises because of vowel length differences.

Modern Low Saxon has a phonological rule whereby a short vowel is somewhat
lengthened before a nasal or liquid; e.g.

*tamm* (Netherlands/Middle Saxon spelling *tam*) [tʰaˑm] 'tame'
*Kinn* (Netherlands/Middle Saxon spelling *kin*) [kʰɪˑn] 'chin'
*Melk* (Netherlands/Middle Saxon spellin *melk*) [mɛˑɫk] 'milk'
*Stall *(Netherlands/Middle Saxon spelling *stal*) [staˑɫ] 'stable',
'stall', 'pen'

In the case of /a/ the pronunciation remains the same as in other cases of
short /a/; it is just slightly lengthened ([aˑ]). (This provoked some Low
Saxon writers in the Netherlands to write it as "aa", because it sounds more
like long Standard Dutch /a/; hence *laand* 'land', and *staal* 'stable' as
opposed to *staol* 'steel'.) It is *not* pronounced like a long /a/, which
is farther back and more or less rounded.

I imagine that this rule existed already in Middle Saxon, hence spelling
like *Stalhof*, *Stâlhof* and *Staelhof* for what is really /stalhov/
'display/exhibition yard', which would be spelled **Stallhoff* in Modern Low
Saxon, pronounced [ˈstaˑɫhɔf], if it didn't become umlauted to
**Stellhoff*[ˈstɛˑɫhɔf] (while
*Stahlhoff* , Netherlands spelling *Staolhof*, 'steelyard', would be
pronounced [ˈstɒːɫhɔf] or [ˈstoːɫhɔf]).

"Display yard" or "exhibition yard" makes a lot more sense to me than "steel
yard", since this was a compound in which potential English buyers found the
merchandise displayed that Hanseatic ships had delivered across the North
Sea and up the Thames.

Yeah, Luc!

Rehards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: Gosh! Wouldn't it be great to be able to time-travel?

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/77b3e3d7/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 15:01:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:01:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.080135.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Sprache

Liebe Experten,

am 26. Juni hörte ich mit Freude auf der BUGA (Bundesgartenschau) ein
ausgezeichnetes Musik-Programm  (Musik und Gesang) mit dem Titel:
"The Sally Gardens - Irish & Scottish Folk". Die heiteren und besinnlichen
Melodien (Balladen) trafen meinen Nerv.
Drei Künstlerinnen E-Geige, E-Gitarre und E-Bass musizierten *non stop *mit
Spaß an der Sache fast zwei Stunden. Das war eine große Leistung!
Ich bemühte mich, den Titel "The Sally Gardens" auf Hochdeutsch zu bringen,
aber bitte nicht schmunzeln (Der Ausbruch Garten ... Der blühende
Garten...), na ja, es gibt ja keine dummen Fragen ...

Beste Grüße.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/64485955/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 15:25:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:25:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.29 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.082527.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.28 (03) [EN]

Paul:
 RE mucker, at least Dutch knows 'makker', not sure about the etymology but
it doesn't look like a loanword, or a very old one. It means something like
"buddy".

Greets,
Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Paul, Lowlanders,

German *Macker* comes from Missingsch which has it from Low Saxon.

Old Saxon has *mako* (pronounced like *macko*) 'companion' which appears to
go back to the same Indo-European root **maĝ-* from which the "make" group
comes. Apart from "make" it also means "knead", "squeeze", "stroke". So
perhaps a *Macker* was originally someone you hugged and petted.

Old Saxon **makār *is not attested in the literature but *makārin *~ *
makirin* is, a female **makār* "maker" or "doer", namely a go-between or
matchmaker.

I imagin that **makār* did exist and that, aside from "maker", it could have
been the "hugger" and "petter" while *mako* was the "huggee" and "pettee"
... ;-) Who says them Old Saxons weren't of the touchy, feely, hugging type?

Seriously though, I find it interesting that the word group "make" also
connoted "knead". I wonder if this has something to do with making pottery.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/325ed46a/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 15:29:25 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:29:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.082925.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: clarkedavid8 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (01) [DE

*Down By The Salley Gardens*
(*Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language>:
Gort na Saileán*) is a poem <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poem> by William
Butler Yeats <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Butler_Yeats> published
in The Wanderings of Oisin and Other
Poems<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wanderings_of_Oisin_and_Other_Poems>in
1889 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889>. Yeats indicated in a note that it
was "an attempt to reconstruct an old song from three lines imperfectly
remembered by an old peasant woman in the village of Ballisodare,
Sligo<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Sligo>,
who often sings them to
herself."[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_By_The_Salley_Gardens#cite_note-0>Yeats's
original title, "An Old Song Re-Sung", reflected this; it first
appeared under its present title when it was reprinted in *Poems* in
1895<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1895>
.[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_By_The_Salley_Gardens#cite_note-1>The
verse was subsequently set to music by Herbert
Hughes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hughes_%28musicologist%29> to
the air <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_%28music%29> *The Maids of t he
Mourne Shore* in 1909. In the 1920s composer Rebecca
Clarke<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Clarke>(1886-1979) set the
text to music.
[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_By_The_Salley_Gardens#cite_note-2>There
is also a vocal setting by the poet and composer Ivor
Gurney <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivor_Gurney>, which was published in
1938.
"Salley" is an anglicisation of the Irish *saileach*, meaning
*willow<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow>
*, i.e., a tree of the genus *Salix*. Willows are known as "salleys",
"sallies" or "salley trees" in parts of
Ireland.[1]<http://www.hiberno-english.com/body.php?id=1484>
 Poem Down by the salley gardens my love and I did meet; She passed the
salley gardens with little snow-white feet. She bid me take love easy, as
the leaves grow on the tree; But I, being young and foolish, with her did
not agree. In a field by the river my love and I did stand, And on my
leaning shoulder she laid her snow-white hand. She bid me take life easy, as
the grass grows on the weirs; But I was young and foolish, and now am full
of tears. *[David Clarke]*


From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Sprache

Liebe Experten,

am 26. Juni hörte ich mit Freude auf der BUGA (Bundesgartenschau) ein
ausgezeichnetes Musik-Programm  (Musik und Gesang) mit dem Titel:
"The Sally Gardens - Irish & Scottish Folk". Die heiteren und besinnlichen
Melodien (Balladen) trafen meinen Nerv.
Drei Künstlerinnen E-Geige, E-Gitarre und E-Bass musizierten *non stop *mit
Spaß an der Sache fast zwei Stunden. Das war eine große Leistung!
Ich bemühte mich, den Titel "The Sally Gardens" auf Hochdeutsch zu bringen,
aber bitte nicht schmunzeln (Der Ausbruch Garten ...20Der blühende
Garten...), na ja, es gibt ja keine dummen Fragen ...

Beste Grüße.

Hanne

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/02fcae03/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 16:44:12 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:44:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.29 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.094412.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

I wrote among other things:

Old Saxon has *mako* (pronounced like *macko*) 'companion' which appears to
go back to the same Indo-European root **maĝ-* from which the "make" group
comes. Apart from "make" it also means "knead", "squeeze", "stroke". So
perhaps a *Macker* was originally someone you hugged and petted.
...

Seriously though, I find it interesting that the word group "make" also
connoted "knead". I wonder if this has something to do with making pottery.

This is what the *Oxford English Dicftionary* says about this:

     The word has been referred to the Indo-European base of Welsh *maeddu *to
knead and Old Church Slavonic *mazati *to smear, and perhaps also of ancient
Greek {μάσσειν (compare the perfect passive *μέμαγμαι*, MAGMA n., and MASS
n.2), classical Latin *mācerāre *(see MACERATE v.), and Armenian *macanim *to
cling to; but whether these last three, and indeed the West Germanic verb,
should be referred to this base is not certain. The Indo-European base
perhaps had the sense ‘to knead, work with the hands’ from which, it is
hypothesized, the more general meaning ‘make’ may have developed. The
Germanic verb is also widely considered to be related to the Germanic base
of I-MAKE n. and MATCH n.1, probably an adjective with the sense ‘fit,
suitable’. This adjective must be regarded as a derivative of the verb
(perhaps via the sense ‘that which can be done’) if the above Indo-European
etymology is accepted. An older view took the verb as a specifically West
Germanic derivative (with the original sense ‘fit, arrange’) of the
adjective (which, having reflexes in North Germanic, must go back to Common
Germanic), and treated the further etymology as unknown.
    Old English *macian *and *gemacian *(which continued into Middle English
as *imake*) are much less common than *don *DO v. (which is also the word
most commonly used to translate Latin *facere*), **I-*gewyrcan *WURCHE v.,
and *wyrcan *WORK v. In Old English sense 1a appears to be the commonest
use, followed by senses 34a and 33b (factitive), 38 (causative), and 43a.
Development of senses within English was affected by various secondary
borrowings and influences, e.g. from senses of Latin *facere *and *fierī*;
no attempt has been made to document these exhaustively below. Since it is
uncertain what the original meanings of the word were in West Germanic, the
branches in the semantic arrangement below do not necessarily reflect the
sequence in which the senses arose.

So "match" as in "matchmaker" belongs to the same group.

I also found Old English *maka* 'companion', 'husband', thus a cognate of
Old Saxon *mako*. So we are talking about a "match" here, about someone you
are matched up with. I wonder if later *Macker* is based on a reanalyzed *
-er* form of this. Furthermore, I wonder if the idea "to cling to", "to
stick to" (see above) is implied here.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/81c88e99/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 22:23:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:23:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.29 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.152355.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: G Tighe <tighe at sympatico.ca>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (07) [EN]

Hi Folk:

There is a 'Tron Gate' in Glasgow.

Gerald

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote
Subject: History

Our Tom (Mc Rae) wrote:

One was set up outside a church in Edinburgh's High Street, probably after
1603 for market prodice to be weighed prior to selling at the market
adjacent to St Giles High Church.
Scots referred to the device as a "TRON" and the church where it was
situated is still called The Tron Church. Long abandoned an enterprising
local gained access in Vistorin Times
and established an illicit whisky still. He ran the vent up into the steeple
so the smells op distilling wafted well above the city.
I recall steelyards being used in Edinburgh butchers' shops in the 1940's.

The *Oxford English Dictionary* says among other things:

*tron, trone** n.*
Sc. and north. dial.
[ME. a. OF. trone (Godef.) -- L. *trulina*, a. Gr. *τρυτάνη *balance, pair
of scales.]
1. (Chiefly Sc.) A weighing machine; a pair of scales or other machine for
weighing merchandise; a public weighing apparatus in a city or (burgh) town;
also called ‘the king's trone’. Now *Hist*.
  b. The post of this was used as a pillory, or place of public exposure and
punishment of offenders.
  c. Contextually, The place where the tron was set up; a market-place,
market; in quot. 1821 *fig*.
  d. Short for *tron weight*
2. (*pl.*) *north. dial.* A weighing-machine; a pair of scales, a steelyard
or spring balance.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/258b9ded/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 22:25:52 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:25:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.29 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.152552.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.29 (04) [EN]

Lowlands-L List wrote:
 i.e.  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> I wrote among other things:
>
> Old Saxon has /mako/ (pronounced like /macko/) 'companion' which appears to
> go back to the same Indo-European root */maĝ-/ from which the "make" group
> comes. Apart from "make" it also means "knead", "squeeze", "stroke". So
> perhaps a /Macker/ was originally someone you hugged and petted.


As a person from this area (midlands), I alway understood 'mucker' as
'companion', with the meaning of 'one-who-shares-bread-with' (indeed, I was
quite stunned as a child, realising that I had a word for 'companion', where
as the rest of the English-speaking world had to make do with an import).

I associated 'my old mucker' with 'to muck in' with the meaning 'share
rations with'.

I fully expect my personal (micro-folk) etymology is utterly false.

Cheers,  my old muckers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/1fb5ec10/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 22:26:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:26:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.152659.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (03) [DE-EN]

Hi David Clarke,

many thanks! Your information it's very good.

Greetings.
Hanne Hinz

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/e850c688/attachment.html>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 15:51:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:51:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2009.06.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.1.JUN.2009.085144.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to Lowlands-L in June of the year 2009!

Lilac, Wisteria and Hawthorn are in full bloom here. I hope it is beautiful
where you are, and you in the Southern Hemisphere enjoy the fruits of
autumn.

Before the usual list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:

*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*

*List Mail vs Private Mail
*Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List.

*Rejected Mail
*Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.

*Language Codes
*In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ( [ ] ). This indicate which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:

lowlands-l.net/codes.php

You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.

*
Projects
*Please don't forget about our activities, especially now that we are
approaching our 14th anniversary (!):

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
   - Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)
   - Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)
   - History (lowlands-l.net/history/ <http://lowlands-l.net/travels/>)
   - Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Beyond the Pale
(lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

All of them have growing numbers of visitors.

If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address (sassisch at yahoo.com) to
propose or ask and also to send your works.

The resource guide is now here: http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/

>From there you can get to the shops that eventually may (or may not) help to
cover some of the cost of running Lowlands-L:
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php

If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L.

*
REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*


*Rules*
A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:

   - Do not mix topics.
   - Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you
   respond. It is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a
   subject line.
   - When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
   portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
   response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
   then.

Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php


Another request:

Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.

*Membership
*As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
   your view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.
   2. You must always give us your name, given name and family name.
   3. If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give
   us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
   something in case we get error messages from that server.
   4. You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
   simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.
   5. Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making
   up your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make
   sure "Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.
   6. DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.
   7. Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their
   names with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting
   is not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
   even if you do not put them right next to each other.

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

   1. Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things
   up, please.
   2. Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
   responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
   apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.
   3. Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
   response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
   not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
   version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
   relevant to your response.
   4. Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are.
   If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L"
   as the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
   authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.
   5. Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
   sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.

*Change of Address*
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address.

*Temporary Absence*
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.


Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
sassisch at yahoo.com
Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
_____

Welcome to those who joined us since the beginning of May 2009! They live in
the following places:

*Australia:
*     Victoria:
          Bundoora [1]
*Netherland*s (Nederland):*
*     Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland):
          Vlaardingen [1]
*New Zealand* (Aotearoa):*
*     Auckland (T??maki-makau-rau):
          Auckland (T??maki-makau-rau) [1]
*United Kingdom:
 *    Greater London:
          London [1]
*United States of America:
*     Minnesota:
          St. Paul [1]

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090601/f5aace7f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 19:38:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:38:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administratia" 2009.06.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.1.JUN.2009.123854.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]

Dear Lowlanders,

Welcome to Lowlands-L in June of the year 2009!

Lilac, Wisteria and Hawthorn are in full bloom here. I hope it is beautiful
where you are, and you in the Southern Hemisphere enjoy the fruits of
autumn.

Before the usual list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:

*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*

*List Mail vs Private Mail
*Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List.

*Rejected Mail
*Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.

*Language Codes
*In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ( [ ] ). This indicate which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:

lowlands-l.net/codes.php

You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.

*
Projects
*Please don't forget about our activities, especially now that we are
approaching our 14th anniversary (!):

   - Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
   - Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)
   - Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)
   - History (lowlands-l.net/history/ <http://lowlands-l.net/travels/>)
   - Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Beyond the Pale
(lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/<http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/>
   )
   - Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

All of them have growing numbers of visitors.

If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address (sassisch at yahoo.com) to
propose or ask and also to send your works.

The resource guide is now here: http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/

>From there you can get to the shops that eventually may (or may not) help to
cover some of the cost of running Lowlands-L:
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php

If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L.

*
REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*


*Rules*
A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:

   - Do not mix topics.
   - Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you
   respond. It is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a
   subject line.
   - When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
   portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
   response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
   then.

Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php


Another request:

Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.

*Membership
*As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.

   1. We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch
   your view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.
   2. You must always give us your name, given name and family name.
   3. If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give
   us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
   something in case we get error messages from that server.
   4. You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
   simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.
   5. Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making
   up your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make
   sure "Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.
   6. DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.
   7. Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their
   names with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting
   is not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
   even if you do not put them right next to each other.

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

   1. Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things
   up, please.
   2. Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
   responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
   apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.
   3. Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
   response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
   not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
   version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
   relevant to your response.
   4. Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are.
   If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L"
   as the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
   authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.
   5. Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
   sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.

*Change of Address*
You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address.

*Temporary Absence*
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.

Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.


Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Co-Founder & Chief Editor
sassisch at yahoo.com
Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
_____

Welcome to those who joined us since the beginning of May 2009! They live in
the following places:

*Australia:
*     Victoria:
          Bundoora [1]
*Netherland*s (Nederland):*
*     Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland):
          Vlaardingen [1]
*New Zealand* (Aotearoa):*
*     Auckland (T??maki-makau-rau):
          Auckland (T??maki-makau-rau) [1]
*United Kingdom:
 *    Greater London:
          London [1]
*United States of America:
*     Minnesota:
          St. Paul [1]

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090601/6c18fbb0/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 19:42:03 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:42:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.01 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.1.JUN.2009.124203.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Hey Lowlanders!

I've been busy trying to not make my schoolwork the whole day so I finally
recorded a sound file for my Wren translation
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-antwerpen.php
 and put up a draft for a Standard Brabantish one
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-standard.php

About that last one I wanted the opinions of our other members from Brabant
here, especially Luc and Roger since they come from southern Brabant.
A short summary on the intentions of this project, which I wanted to post a
while ago already - but now this is a better occasion to bring it out on
LLL:
I am working on a standard written language for the Brabantish dialects,
i.e. the ones in Belgian Brabant. Noord-Brabant in the Netherlands was
originally in the plan too, but there the deviation is too big in sounds,
grammar, vocabulary etc, while the Belgian part of the old Duchy is a lo
more homogenous - thus allowing to make a writing system without too many
sideforms, without having to set up 5 different allowed forms for each word
etc.
The intention is not to give a phonetic representation of a particular Brab.
dialect. That's what the Brabantse Referentiespelling guys did, and I think
their spelling sucks. It is not because I come from Antwerp and I pronounce
all my short /i/'s 'sharper' and more closed that I should replace every /i/
by an /ie/ when I write dialect, making it look ridiculous. And there's no
reason to write the ei and ij, and ui as aaj and oaj or something similar,
when you as well can make a standard with ei, ij, ui which looks more
respectable, people are more used to it and you can just set up
pronunciationrule: ui is prounounced oaj. And up north in the province of
Antwerp, they pronounce it ???? and ????, but they have no reason to write it
that way either. The only spelling to unify Brabantish is by using what we
have from the Dutch tradition and form it into something that represents our
phonology (but not phonetics) and grammar.

For this reason one writes /h/ as well, except in words like et/het
(optional h, as even in h-retaining dialects one pronounces it 'et', and
there is no etymological reason to write the /h/ either), 'm (hem).
This does not mean that one would have to pronounce this h, and if you come
from a h-less area it is not less 'your' Brabantish just because h's are
written. If this standard language wants to have equal prestige as any other
written language and not just be "funny written Dutch" certain rules like
ui, ei and the h have to be followed in my opinion.

But where the SYSTEM goes against Dutch, we write differently. As vowel
shortening for example, almost obligatory in Br.
Long vowels ar eshortened to their short counterpart, and
ui > ??
ei/ij > e (/a/ in a smaller area, but not representative enough, and in
younger dialect in for example Antw. rapidly being replaced by /e/ anyway)
aa > o or ??. Here it's hard to make one single choice, as o vs. ?? depends
from word to word, in some o being almost the only option in the whole area,
in others ?? being spread over 1/2 of the area. Therefor it's easiest to
accept both variants, so the writer can decide in which words he uses o and
in which ??. The north-east of province antwerp has shortening to /a/, but
this area is not extensive enough to consider a third variety - the two most
used are already complicated enough.
i?? to i
o?? to oe or ??, except in "o??k" ('ook') where it is oek or ok (as the usual
??-area has o in this word without excceptions)
u?? to u

Umlaut occurs without exception in those words which have it all over both
provinces, loke Germanic ?? and ??: zuke, k????s, vule, etc. Umlaut of au is
optional, so gelo??ve next to gelu??ve. The South-West corner of Vl.Brabant
has u?? for all Germanic au's, with and without umlaut, so they will have to
stick to the dominating o?? everywhere.

Short Dutch o in front of nk, ng, m and  few other words is still a problem,
as joenk, loemp, etc dominate, but oep and loecht (lucht) for example have a
much less wide range. So far I have put short oe and o next to eachother,
but I still want to solve this problem, following the Standard language
chosing /o/ would be most logical, but chosing /oe/ would maybe make it more
brabantish and create more clear distantiation.

Deletion of final -d in verb endings after long vowel so far has been left
optional, as it seems most of Vlaams Brabant retains this? in words as
gezee[d], ge zij[d] or ge z??[d], hij hee[d], etc.

So here is a sample of the proposed spelling system:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-standard.php
 Where variation is allowed, hold your mouse pointer over the underlined
word to see what other variants are allowed so far.

ANY feedback, comments etc. are more than welcome. If there are things you
feel make it too distant and too little usable for you as a Brabantish
speaker, please tell me what points I still need to work out better. Well I
suppose you know what to do:)
Cheers!

Diederik

PS: nou for 'normal' nu and ou for 'u', 'jou' usually evoke a lot of
reaction/resistance and seem very 'hollandic' to most. However they are the
only acceptable standard written forms. They are usually pronounced naa or
nei, aa or ei or similar, but then again most other ou's are as well, as
"haave" 'houden > houwen', and a similar u > ou we have in douwen,
houwelijk, spouwen pronounced as daave/deive, speive and so on.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090601/8a3f79ee/attachment.htm>

From sassisch at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  2 16:23:35 2009
From: sassisch at YAHOO.COM (R. F. Hahn)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:23:35 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JUN.2009.092335.0700.>

delete quiet lowlands-l ruessel panisman at erols.com
add lowlands-l ruessel panisman at gmail.com

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090602/44ef57c2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  2 03:44:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:44:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.01 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.1.JUN.2009.204427.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Vogel des Jahres

Best' Ron un all' Lowlanders,

tau disse Tied is rund??m ein Fl??uten un Singen, dat hett mi anroegt, nu ehr
Namens up Plattd????tsch tau vermellen.

1971 Wanderfalke : allgem. Falk (?) dat krieg ick noch rut
1972 Steinkauz : Dodenvagel
1973 Eisvogel : Iesvagel, I??vagel s. 2009
1974 Mehlschwalbe : Swoelk, Finsterswoelk
1975 Gold(regenpfeifer) : T??tvagel, Vagel T??t, T??ten
1976 Wiedehopf : Hupup, Huppup, Hupuhp
1977 Schleiereule : Tormuhl, Schnorkuhl
1978 Kranich : Kraun, Kroon, Muskant
1979 Rauchschwalbe : Swoelk, Stallswoelk
1980 Birkhuhn : Barkhauhn, Barckhoon
1981 Schwarzspecht : R??genvagel (Regenruf "pr??h, pr??h, pr??h")
1982 Gro??er Brachvogel : Vagel T??t, R??genvagel, R??genfl??uter, W??rervagel,
Watervagel (Braakvagel ?)
1983 Uferschwalbe : Sandswoelk
1984 Wei??storch : Adebar, Adebor, Poggenbieter, Had'bar, Musche Langbein
1985 Neunt??ter : N??genm??rder
1986 Saatkr??he : Ackerkreih
1987 Braunkehlchen : Brunb??ster (braune Brust)
1988 Wendehals : Dreihhhals (verdreht den Hals. Wennehals ist falsch)
1989 Teichrohrs??nger : Familie Grasm??cke, Gesang, Gefieder wie
Drosselrohrs??nger, de l??tte Ruhrsparling, Korl-Kiek, Reitpieper
1990 Pirol : Vagel B??low, Pingstvagel, Schult von B??low (Schult :
B??rgermeister)
1991 Rebhuhn : Rapphauhn
1992 Rotkehlchen : Rodb??ster (rote Brust), singendes R. h??ren, bedeutet
Gl??ck,  1) siehe mein Gedicht
1993 Flussregenpfeifer : T??tvagel, R??gent??t
1994 Wei??storch s. 1984
1995 Nachtigall : Nachtigall, Nachtigal, Fl??utjehann, Trillerine,
Achtervagel
1996 Kiebitz : Kiwitt
1997 Buntspecht : Knorrenspecht, Bomhacker, Holthauger
1998 Feldlerche : Lerche, Lewark, Lierk
1999 Goldammer : G??lgoss, G??lgaus, G??lg??schen
2000 Rotmilan : Tw??lstiert (gegabelter Sto??), Wieh, Huweh, Huwieh
2001 Haubentaucher : D??kervagel, Seehahn, Seed??ker, D??ker(t)
2002 Haussperling/Spatz : Sparling, L??nk (Sprei, Spree gilt f??r Sperling und
Star)
2003 Mauersegler : Tuurnswoelk, Tormswoelk
2004 Zaunk??nig : Nettelk??nig, Tunkr??per, Schneek??nig, Sneik??nig, Grot Jochen
2005 Uhu : Schuhu, Schuhuu, Schuhut, Schufot, Dodenvagel
2006 Kleiber : Kleimer (Lehmbauer, de Soelken kleimen ok ehr Nest)
2007 Turmfalke : Tuurnfalk, Steinfalk, R??ttelfalk, Roetelfalk, Thurmhavk
2008 Kuckuck : Kukuk
2009 Eisvogel : I??vagel, Iesvagel, hei hett Gl??ck as'n Iesvagel. (s. 1973)

1) *Rodb??ster *(Vogel des Jahres 1992)

Rodb??ster, Rodb??ster,
din K??hl l??cht' so rod.
Wat sall dat bed??den,
k??mmst du nu bitiden
womoeglich in Not?

Denn' Abend, denn' Abend
s??ngst du dor f??r mi?
Dat kl??ng' all' so trurig
un ick set' so lurig,
ick stah di je bi.

L??tt Vagel, l??tt Vagel,
din Bost glummt so wit.
Sall de mi wohrschugen?
M????t h??ger nu bugen,
ward b??ter din Tit.

Rodb??ster, Rodb??ster
din Leed kl??ng' so heit.
Dat sall mi bed??den,
du brukst uns tautiden,
de Minsch dat nu weit ...

Der Komponist Eberhard Barbi (Schwerin-Pampow) schrieb 1998 einen sehr
sch??nen Chorsatz. Auch ich vertonte es.

Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert, eigene Sammlung, Schriftenreihe des
Karbe-Wagner-Archivs, Heft 8 "Unterhaltsame Volkskunde"

Dit wier u.a. mien Pingsten.

Von Harten mien Gr??uten.

Hanne Hinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dank di, leve Hanne, ook f??r den Riemel.

Folks, Hanne ushers in June 2009 with a list of birds German : Low Saxon.

Below I added the *scientific (Latin) *and *English** *equivalents to the
German and Low Saxon names, *bold green* ones being my addition to the Low
Saxon collection. Literal translations are added by me also.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: I noticed today that lilac and hawthorn are actually beyond their
prime ... I'd hate to find out that the wisterias have gone that way already
also.

1971 *Falco peregrinus* *peregrin falcon :* Wanderfalke : *Falk*

1972 *Athene noctua* *little owl :** *Steinkauz : Dodenvagel ("death bird")

1973 *Alcedo atthis* *common kingfisher :* Eisvogel : Iesvagel, I??vagel s.
2009 ("ice bird")

1974 *Delichon urbica* *house martin :** *Mehlschwalbe : Swoelk,
Finsterswoelk ("window swallow")

1975 *Pluvialis apricaria* *Eurasian golden plover* : Gold(regenpfeifer) :
T??tvagel, *T**????**tvagel*, Vagel T??t, T??ten ("tweeter bird")

1976 *Upupa epops* *hoopoe :** *Wiedehopf : Hupup, Huppup, Hupuhp

1977 *Tyto alba* *barn owl :** *Schleiereule : Tormuhl ("tower owl"),
Schnorkuhl ("snore owl")

1978 *Grus grus* *crane :** *Kranich : *Kraan, *Kraun, Kroon, Muskant
("musician")

1979 *Hirundo rustica* *barn swallow :* Rauchschwalbe : Swoelk,
Stallswoelk("stable swallow")

1980 *Lyrurus tetrix* or auch *Tetrao tetrix* *black grouse :**
*Birkhuhn : Barkhauhn,
Barckhoon ("birch hen")

1981 *Dryocopus martius* *black woodpecker :** *Schwarzspecht :
R??genvagel ("rain
bird")

1982 *Numenius arquata* *Eurasian curlew :* Gro??er Brachvogel : Vagel
T??t ("tweeter
bird"), R??genvagel ("rain bird"), R??genfl??uter ("rain fluter"),
W??rervagel("weather bird"),
Watervagel ("water bird")

1983 *Riparia riparia* *sand martin :** *Uferschwalbe : Sandswoelk ("sand
swallow")

1984 *Ciconia ciconia **white stork : * Wei??storch : Adebar, Adebor, Had'bar,
Poggenbieter ("frog biter"), Musche Langbein ("monsieur Longlegs")

1985 *Lanius collurio* *Red-backed Shrike* : Neunt??ter : N??genm??rder ("nine
murderer")

1986 *Corvus frugilegus* *rook :** *Saatkr??he : Ackerkreih ("field crow")

1987 *Saxicola rubetra* *whinchat* : Braunkehlchen : Brunb??ster, *Bruunb??ster
* ("brown-breaster")

1988 *Jynx torquilla* *Eurasian wryneck* : Wendehals : Dreihhhals ("turn
neck")

1989 *Acrocephalus scirpaceus* *Eurasian reed warbler* : Teichrohrs??nger : de
l??tte Ruhrsparling ("the little reed sparrow"), Korl-Kiek ("Charlie peep"),
Reitpieper, *Reetpieper* ("reed piper")

1990 *Oriolus oriolus* *golden oriole :* Pirol : Vagel B??low,
Pingstvagel ("Whitsun
bird"), Schult von B??low

1991 *Perdix perdix* *grey partridge* : Rebhuhn : Rapphauhn, *Rapphohn*

1992 *Erithacus rubecula* *European robin :** *Rotkehlchen : Rodb??ster, *
Roodb??ster* ("red-breaster")

1993 *Charadrius dubius* *little ringed plover* : Flussregenpfeifer :
T??tvagel ("tweet bird"), R??gent??t, *R??gent????t * ("rain tweet")

1994 s. 1984

1995 *Luscinia megarhynchos* *nightingale* : Nachtigall : Nachtigall,
Nachtigal, Fl??utjehann ("flutist John"), Trillerine, Achtervagel ("back
bird")

1996 *Vanellus vanellus* *northern lapwing* : Kiebitz : Kiwitt

1997 *Dendrocopos major* *great spotted woodpecker* : Buntspecht :
Knorrenspecht
("knot woodpecker"), Holthauger, *Holthacker* ("wood hacker"), Bomhacker*,
Boomhacker* ("tree hacker")*, Boombicker* ("tree pecker")*,
Booml??per*("tree runner")

1998 *Alauda arvensis* *skylark* : Feldlerche : Lerche, Lewark, Lierk, *Leerk,
Lark, Lurk, Lewerk(e), Lewalk, Lauerk, L**??wink*

1999 *Emberiza citrinella* *yellowhammer : *Goldammer : G??lgoss, G??lgaus,
G??lg??schen, *G????lg????schen, G????lm????schen, G????lbaartje* ("little yellow
beard") (*g??**??l* 'yellow')

2000 *Milvus milvus* *red kite:** *Rotmilan : Tw??lstiert ("bifurcated tail"),
Wieh, Huweh, Huwieh

2001 *Podiceps cristatus* *great grested grebe* : Haubentaucher :
D??kervagel("diver bird"),
Seehahn ("sea cock"), Seed??ker ("sea diver"), D??ker(t) ("diver")

2002 *Passer domesticus* *house sparrow :** *Haussperling/Spatz : Sparling,
L??nk, *L??nink, **L??**??**ntje, Sparl, Dackfink * ("roof finch")

2003 *Apus apus* *common swift : *Mauersegler : Tuurnswoelk,
Tormswoelk, *Toornsw??lk
* ("tower swallow")

2004 *troglodytes troglodytes* *winter wren : *Zaunk??nig :
Nettelk??nig("nettle king"),
Tunkr??per, *Tuunkr??per* ("hedge/fence creeper"), Schneek??nig,
Sneik??nig("snow king"),
Grot Jochen. *groot Jochen * ("big Jake")

2005 *Bubo bubo* *Eurasian eagle owl : *Uhu : Schuhu, Schuhuu, Schuhut,
Schufot, Dodenvagel ("death bird")

2006 *Sitta europaea* *Eurasian nuthatch :* Kleiber : Kleimer ("dauber")

2007 *Falco tinnunculus* *common kestrel* : Turmfalke : Tuurnfalk, *
Toornfalk* ("tower falcon"), Steinfalk ("stone falcon"), R??ttelfalk,
Roetelfalk ("shaking falcon"), Thurmhavk ("tower hawk")**

2008 *Cuculus canorus* *common cuckoo: *Kuckuck : Kukuk, *Kukuuk*

2009 *Alcedo atthis* *common kingfisher : *Eisvogel : I??vagel, Iesvagel ("ice
bird")

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090601/7a23d5b8/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 18:29:19 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:29:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.03 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUN.2009.112919.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Lowlanders,

My apologies about the erroneously sent message.

Strange things are going on with the Listserver. Among other things I can't
make any changes to the subscription specifications at the moment.

Please bear with me until this has been sorted out.

Regards from an unusually hot Seattle, USA, (unusually certainly for this
time of the year),
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090603/b077cb35/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 18:19:13 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:19:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.01 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUN.2009.111913.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Junimaand

Hallo leiw' Lowlanders,

nu hett uns de Junimaand fat' kr??gen, so m??nnigmal sp??lt dat W??der mit uns
Kuhlsoeg' (dat Wuurt kennt ji je all).
Dat Wuurt 'Junimaand' stammt von Fritz Reuter. Egentlich heit dat *Brakmaand,
Braakmaand.* Junius 'Brachmaen' CHYTR. 30; Arch. Landesk. 14,554. Mnd*.
brakmant, -m??n(e) *m*.*
Ob dat h??t noch bi de niedmodsche Technik ein Brakeltiet g??ben deit, weit
ick nich so recht. Brakeltiet : is de Tiet, wo de Acker sick utslapen m??t,
dat heit, de Acker liggt brak. Ja, un so is de Juni tau sien' Namen kamen.

Duert nich mihr lang', denn pisackt uns de *Schapk??ll, Schapsk??ll* , wenn't
hoch k??mmt, bannig dull an'n 11. Dag in dissen Maand (??hnlich wie bei den
Eisheiligen). Wiel de mihrsten Schap all scheert s??nd, m??ckt ehr de K??ll tau
schaffen, denn draugt l??tt Bah-L??mming Gefohr. Ja, un so n??umt man disse Tiet
*Schapsk??ll.*
**
An'n 21. heit dat denn *Sommeranfang.*Wi t??uben dat ierst mal af.

An'n 24. heit dat *Johanni (*Johannes der T??ufer), un wenn dat W??der so
k??mmt: *v??l R??gen v??r Johanni* bietet Gew??hr f??r eine gute Kartoffelernte.
Scherzend: *v??r Johanni m??t 'n dat ??nnert??g anbehollen un nah Johanni wedder
antrecken. *Regen zu *Johanni *
k??ndigt vierwochenlangen Regen sowie eine nasse Ernte, aber auch eine gute
Buchenmast an.
**
*Soebensleperdag 27. *(Siebenschl??fertag), un woans heit dat: *wenn't
Soebensleperdag r??gent, r??gent 't soeben Wochen.* Aber
Aufhebung dieses schlechten Omens ist:
*Soebenbr??uderdag *m. der Kalendertag Septem fratrum, der 10. Juli;
Wetterregel: *wenn 't Soebenbr??uder r??gent, r??gent 't soe**ben Wochen, **doch
*hebt gutes Wetter am 13. oder 15. Juli diese schlimme Vorbedeutung wieder
auf. - denn will ich hier man aufh??ren.

(Ick bedank mi bi de Perfessers Wossidlo/Teuchert Mecklenburgisches
W??rterbuch.)

Meteorologen sollte man immer fragen ".... wie war denn gestern
das Wetter....".

Kamt gaut d??rch denn' Brakmaand,
dat w??nsch ick all'tohopen.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090603/363f283f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 19:13:09 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:13:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.03 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUN.2009.121309.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Lowlanders,

Just now I was told by our good hosts (LINGUIST) that they had upgraded the
software and that the transition was accompanied by a few hiccups.

Soon after that I tested the system again and was successful. So in theory
at least all is in working order again. Should any other "weirdness" ensue,
please assume that you are dealing with another hiccup.

As always, regards and best wishes,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090603/660a80c7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 19:19:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:19:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.03 (04) [AF]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JUN.2009.121927.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: delangeam <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: laaste skrywe

Beste Ron,

Jou laaste skrywe onder ???lexicon??? aangaande vo???elname was wonderlik. Ek het
honderde duisendekilometers in veraf landelike gebiede gereis op soek na
geofiete (plante wat water ondergronds stoor.)

Heelwat van jou Saksiese name het ek daar (in Afrikaanse vorm) gehoor en
nerens anders nie.

Mooi loop

At *[de Lange]*

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090603/b3974fa1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 14:10:29 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:10:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.03 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.071029.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.05.26 (05) [EN]

Roger Thijs raised the topic of " *Verkavelingsvlaams,
Verkavelingsnederlands". In my opinion the main feature of this kind
of (reprehensible)
substandard Belgian Dutch, being neither standard Dutch nor dialect,
consists of using the inversed verbal forms for the second person, which
usually sound something like 'gade mee, doede gij' (ga je , doe jij). I
pride myself that my native tongue, Tiens (and also nearby Hoegaardens) is
the only dialect in all of Brabantish that has been spared this kind of what
I like to call "kreupel Nederlands". We say "gaat ge, doet gij" , *[??x??] [d??
U xE??]* **I'm qu**ite sure a lot of people might want to disagree. I'm
looking forward to your opinion and remarks.
PS I hope the phonetic text will prove to be legible.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
* ??
As well the Dutch *verkaveling* as the French *lotissement*?? can mean both:
1 - Dividing a land in smaller parcels intended for the construction of
houses (in an organized way and supported by the investments?? in roads and
utilities)
2 - The section of a town that was created by such a procedure.
??
In Belgium we use "Verkavelingsvlaams" for designing Belgian Dutch colored
by some regiolect.?? The term "Verkavelingsvlaams"?? was lauched I think by a
journalist Geert van Istendaal. Since in such development area people from
different villages buy land and construct houses, the native village dialect
of the area is not known nor learned?? by the new immigrants and the
regiolect-color helps to keep a cosy armosphere;
Local soap TV series often use some form of Verkavelingsvlaams.
??
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotissement
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkaveling?? is incomplete and gives only the
first meaning
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkavelingsvlaams
??
Regards,
Roger

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/a1d8d97b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 14:12:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:12:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.04 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.071259.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Baum des Jahres

*Out of gratitude for help *(Vogel des Jahres)

Dear Ron and hello, Lowlanders!

Jahr/ Latein/ Hochdeutsch/ Niederdeutsch/ Englisch
1989 Quercus robur/ Stieleiche/  Eik, Eikbom, Eek, Ek, Ehk, Stehnehk,
Drufehk, Frucht: Eichel/ oak ? acorn
          Quercus foemina (pedun culata)/ Sommereiche/ Ehk, Mastehk/ oak?
1990 Fagus sylvatia/ Buche/ B??uk, (Hainbuche, Hagb??uk, Rotbuche, Mastb??uk)
Frucht: Buchecker/B??ukecker/ beech
1991 Tilia platyphyllos/ Sommerlinde/ Lindenbom, Linn'nbom/ lime
1992 Ulmus glabra/ Bergulme/ Feldr??ster, R??ster,Reuster, R??sterbom,
R????sterbom/ elm ?
1993 Sorbus domestica/ Speierling/ in Literatur nicht auffindbar/
1994 Taxus baccata/ Eibe/ Ibenbom, Taxbom, Fr??chte: Honnigbeeren/ yew
1995 Acer platanoides/ Spitzahorn/ Ahurn, Ah??rn, Ah??rn, N??senklemmerbom,
Klonebom (slaw. Lehnwort), Frucht: N??senklemmer/
          maple ?
1996 Carpinus betulus/ Hain- oder Hagebuche/ Hawb??uk (Haw von Hain),
(Wei??buche/Wittb??uk/ beech ?
1997 Sorbus aucuparia/ Vogelbeere oder Eberesche/ Quitschbeerenbom,
Vagelbeerbom, Quitsch, Quitz/  bird-berry ?
1998 Pyrus communis/ Wildbirne/ Wilde Beerbom (62 Arten)/ wild-pear ?
1999 Salix alba/ Silberweide/ Kroppwied, andere Arten wie Gel Wied,
Korfwied, Palmwied/ silver-willow
2000 Betula pendula/ Sand- oder H??ngebirke/ Bark, Barkenbom, Maibom, junge
Birke: Maien, Maibusch, Hangelbark/
          sand- or hangbirch ?
2001 Fraxinus excelsior/ Esche/ Taageschen (z??hes Holz), Wittb??uk/ ash
2002 Juniperus communis/ Wacholder/ Knirk, Macholler/ juniper
2003 Alnus glutinosa/ Schwarzerle/ Eller/ black-alder
2004 Abies alba/ Wei??tanne (ausgestorben)/ Wittdann/ white fir or wheat fir
?
2005 Aesculus hippocastanum/ Rosskastanie/ Kastann'bom, Kastanie, Kastann'/
chestnut ?
2006 Populus nigra/ Schwarzpappel/ P??ppelwied auch Ful Esch/ black-poplar ?
2007 Pinus sylvestris/ Waldf??hre oder Waldkiefer/ Dann, F??hrenholt/ fir ?
2008 Juglans regia/ Walnuss/ Walln??htbom, Wallnoetbom, Wallnoetsbom/ walnut
2009 Acer pseudoplatanus/ Berg-Ahorn/ Ah??hrn, Ah??hrn, s. auch 1995/ maple ?

Baum des Jahrtausends: Ginkgo biloba (Umweltschutz, Frieden)

*Natur                                           *1992 Ulme (R??ster,
R????strbom)

Ick g??ng so giern
d??rch Holt un Busch
un oewer Heid' mit di,
un luuster, wenn de Scheper s??ng',
wenn sacht de Wind d??rch Eikb??m kl??ng';
ein Aten wir't f??r mi.

Un dat s??ng' so de Busch,
bald singt hei nich mihr,
de R????sterbom klagt sin Leid;
de Wind weiht so rug',
de Lucht is so swor;
nu ahn ick, wat dit all heit.

Ach, de Ierd' br??kt so up;
weinst du all Natur?
Ein Storm all intwei ret ein Land.
Ein R??gen weikt up
de Ierd', uns' Saat, -
ein Kind hewt krank noch sin Hand.

Un so still swiggt dat Holt,
de Minschheit larmt lud,
wat bl??tt'st du nu all Morgenrot?
De rike Mann sett't
de ??xt wedder an;
uns' Ierd', sei schrigt grell ehr Not.

Ick will so girn
d??rch Holt un Busch
mit di ok morgen gahn,
un luustern, wenn de Scheper singt,
dat sacht de Wind d??rch Eikb??m klingt,
will L??ben so verstahn!

(H. Hinz)

So, dat wir't!

Best' Gr??uten
Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/6653fdea/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 14:27:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:27:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.072720.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: Grammatik

Dat gifft in uns Dialekt en bes??nner Wies "'t fangt an to ..." uttodr??cken.
"'t fangt an to regen" warrt denn to'n Bispeel "'t warrt regen" utdr??ckt.
Dat "regen" in dissen Utdruck is keen Substantiv, dat is en Verbform. Dat
geiht blot mit en poor Verben, de en Tostand utdr??ckt. Aver blot f??r
Tost??nn, de nat??rlich s??nd, de de Minsch nich st????rn kann. V??r allen dat
Weder ("de Heven warrt so d????ster utsehn", "snein warrn", "schummern warrn")
oder to'n Bispeel ok sowat as "du warrst ja in't Gesicht so slecht utsehn".
Is wohrschienlich en afslepen Gerundivform (is Gerundiv de richtige Utdruck
f??r -nd-W????r so as hoochd????tsch "aussehend"?) - afslepen j??st as in "fleten
Water" - un keen Infinitiv.

Op't Internett heff ik blot en Hand vull Bispelen funnen:

"Een Maschien dreiht dat Heu ton groten witten Plastik-Rollmops tosamen ??? un
denn kann???t regen warrn." <
http://www.grossenaspe.de/html/body_ve_frueher.html>
 "Dat warrt regen..." <
http://lehrplan.lernnetz.de/intranet1/links/materials/1150375624.pdf>
 "??m de Ulenflucht, wenn dat schummern warrt" <
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8xAIBLQ_50>
 "Wat kann de Minsch leeg - utsehn warrn" <
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Hamborger_Janmooten/Krischon_Honolulu>
 "Ja, un't lett so fast, as wenn't meindag' nich wedder regen warden will" <
http://wikisource.org/wiki/D%C3%B6rchl%C3%A4uchting/Kapittel_10>

Disse Bispelen s??nd all ut Holsteen, Hamborg un Mekelborg. Kann aver angahn,
dat dat ok annerwegens noch kennt warrt, annere Regionen hebbt ja annere
Formen f??r "warrn" ("weern", "worden" etc.).

Weet dor een von jo mehr to? Gifft dat disse Utdruckswies bi jo ok? Weet
een, wo dat von her kaamt, wannehr dat opkamen is, woneem dat bruukt warrt
etc.?

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Beste Marcus,

Na mien Dinken s??nd das Substantiven, un de schull 'n groot schrieven:

Orginaal: Dat schall/sall r??gen.
??nner d????tsch Inwarken: Dat wardt r??gen.

Man ???
??m de Ulenflucht, wenn dat Schummern wardt
Wenn dat Heu hoog un dr????g' liggt, denn kann 't R??gen warden.
Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder R??gen warden will.
so as: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder warm warden
will.
or: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder Summer warden
will.

Man: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder r??gen will.

Gr??tens,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/863487b5/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 14:42:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:42:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2009.06.04 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.074228.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.03 (04) [EN]

I noticed that two verbal forms in phonetic spelling turned out to be
unreadable. I use the Silipa fonts and I hoped UTF-8 would recognize them.
Can anyone give me a tip as to how I can insert symbols of the International
Ponetic System into a Lowlands message?

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Hi, Roger!

It's been good hearing from you again.

Are you talking about SIL IPA93? That's a Unicode font. I'm not sure about
the 1990 version.

The way I do it is use a Unicode font and make sure Unicode encoding is
specified in the program.

A nice and quick way of copying and pasting IPA is to use the IPA Picker:
http://rishida.net/scripts/pickers/ipa/

(Other Pickers: http://rishida.net/scripts/pickers/)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/057e99d2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 17:24:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:24:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (05) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.102400.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (03) [NDS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Grammar
>
> Beste Marcus,
>
> Na mien Dinken s??nd das Substantiven, un de schull 'n groot schrieven:
>
> Orginaal: Dat schall/sall r??gen.
> ??nner d????tsch Inwarken: Dat wardt r??gen.
>
> Man ???
> ??m de Ulenflucht, wenn dat Schummern wardt
> Wenn dat Heu hoog un dr????g' liggt, denn kann 't R??gen warden.
> Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder R??gen warden
> will.
> so as: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder warm
> warden will.
> or: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder Summer warden
> will.
>
> Man: Ja, un 't lett meist so, as wenn 't miendaag' nich wedder r??gen will.
>
> Gr??tens,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Dat "Dat wardt r??gen", wo du baven von schriffst, dat is Futur, wat eerst
noch passeren schall. Wo ik von snack, dat warrt seggt, wenn dat j??st
anfangt oder j??st in'e Gang kamen is.
Bi "regen" s??ht dat w??rklich so ut, as wenn dat en Substantiv wesen kunn. Is
dat aver nich, dat liggt blot dor an, dat dor keen ??nnerscheed twischen
"regen" un "Regen" is. J??stso bi "Schummern". Aver bi "de Heven warrt so
d????ster utsehn" kann dat keen Substantiv wesen. Wat schull "de Heven warrt
so d????ster Utsehn" utseggen?  Oder "dat warrt Dunnern un Blitzen"? Un
schreven warrt dat in de Literatur ok j??mmer l??tt (mit Google B??ker is noch
en beten mehr to finnen).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Dank di, Marcus.

Du schreevst:

Bi "regen" s??ht dat w??rklich so ut, as wenn dat en Substantiv wesen kunn. Is
dat aver nich,

Ja, good. Man woans kannst du so s??ker sien? Wat is de Bewies? L??tt- or
Grootschrieven or annere Saken vun w??gen Schrievwies' s??nd keen Bewiesen.

Sinn: "fangt j??stemang an" (immediate future indicating begin):

Dat wardt Ucht ~ Uchtenstied. (Dawn is beginning. It's dawning.)
Dat wardt Avend. (Evening is falling.)
Dat wardt Summer ~ Summertied ~ Summerwedder. (Summer (weather) is
beginning.)
Dat wardt Schummern ~ Schummer(n)tied. (Dusk is falling.)
Dat wardt D????sternis ~ Nacht. (It's getting dark. Night is falling.)
Dat wardt R??gen ~ R??genwedder. (It's beginning to rain. Rain (weather) is
starting.)
Dat wardt Dauen ~ Dauwedder. (It's beginning to thaw. Thawing weather is
beginning.)
Dat wardt uplopen Water. (The water is rising. It's the beginning of flood
tide.)
Dat wardt Leegwater. (It's the beginning of ebb tide.)
Dat wardt Bl??hn ~ Bl??htied. (It's beginning to bloom. Flowering season is
beginning.)

Sinn: Tokamen/Futur (future, indicating impending action):
(schall = orginaal, wardt < d????tsch wird)

Dat schall (~ wardt) r??gen. (It will rain.)
Dat schall (~ wardt) dauen. (It will thaw.)
Dat schall Avend warden. (Night will fall. Night will be falling.)
Dat schall (~ wardt) uchten. (It will dawn. Dawn will come.)
Dat schall (~ wardt) bl??hn. (The blooming season will begin.)
Dat Water schall (~ wardt) uplopen. (The water will rise.)
Dat Water schall (~ wardt) aflopen. (The water will run off.)
Dat schall (~ wardt) d????ster warden. (It will get dark.)

Gr??tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/5b247d2d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 19:17:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:17:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (06) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.121738.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de|>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (03) [NDS]

Hallo Marcus

As M??kelborgsche vermell ick nu dit:

Dat sall noch R??gen g??ben. Un wenn de R??gen f??llt, denn r??gent (regnet) dat,
un wenn de R??gen foll'n is, denn hett dat r??gent.
Wenn de R??gen r??gent hal ick mi 'n R??genschirm. B??ter is, dat r??gent h??t
nich, denn' w????r dat r??gen (regnen), denn r??gent dat je.
r??gen : regnen
r??gent : regnet
Dat ward r??gen (regnen, Verb), Das/es wird regnen.  Dat r??gent (regnet,
Verb) ??mmer
??bendr??chtig. Es regnet immerzu. In ??bertr. Bedeutung: denn r??gent' (regnet;
Verb) man so in'n Hals. Er kommt schnell zu etwas.

Infinite Formen                  Unbetimmte Formen:
*Infinitiv                               *Grundform
lachen,     lachen    regnen,    r??gen
*Partizip Pr??sens              *Mittelwort der                   lachend,
lachen   regnend,  r??gen
                                              Gegenwart
*Partizip Perfekt                *Mittelwort
der                   gelacht,    lacht      geregnet, r??gent

r??gent (geregnet) - k??nnte das "t" dat oder et (es) ausdr??cken, oder wat
meint ihr, die im ND wegfallende Vorsilbe 'ge' ersetzen? Hm, weit nich so
recht.

Ick m??t mi ??mmer noch denn' Kopp termautbasten (abqu??len, zerbrechen).

Gr??uten.

Hanne Hinz

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/473d8095/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 19:31:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:31:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.04 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JUN.2009.123121.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.03 (04) [EN]

> From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.05.26 (05) [EN]
> Roger Thijs raised the topic of " *Verkavelingsvlaams,
Verkavelingsnederlands". In my opinion the main feature of this kind
of (reprehensible)
substandard Belgian Dutch, being neither standard Dutch nor dialect,
consists of using the inversed verbal forms for the second person, which
usually sound something like 'gade mee, doede gij' (ga je , doe jij). I
pride myself that my native tongue, Tiens (and also nearby Hoegaardens) is
the only dialect in all of Brabantish that has been spared this kind of what
I like to call "kreupel Nederlands". We say "gaat ge, doet gij" , *[??x??] [d??
U xE??]* **I'm qu**ite sure a lot of people might want to disagree. I'm
looking forward to your opinion and remarks.
PS I hope the phonetic text will prove to be legible.
*

I must say the pressure to a kind of Verkavelingsvlaams is quite strong in
some area's. I'm native (West)-Limburgish, lived in my home town for 33
years (with brief interruptions in Essen-Heisingen, Germany and in
Asper-Gavere, East-Flanders, as well as in the week for many years as
student in Leuven), and 27 years in Mortsel, a suburb of Antwerp.
Since Antwerpish people consider their dialect a metropolitan world
language, the pressure is very strong for contamination of local Dutch with
Brabantish elements: *Hedde gij...  Zallekik....* etc.
When back in Limburg from time to time, my Limburgish is unchanged, but when
I speak less formal Dutch, it still has residual Antwerpish elements and
Limburgish people do not like that (so they correct me).
I remember before, when I still lived in Limburg, my parents had had a
similar reaction against an aunt of mine who moved to Antwerp in the late
fourties.

Regards,
Roger

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090604/4aaaf99b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:00:01 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:00:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.05 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.070001.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.04 (05) [NDS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dank di, Marcus.
>
> Du schreevst:
>
> Bi "regen" s??ht dat w??rklich so ut, as wenn dat en Substantiv wesen kunn.
> Is dat aver nich,
>
> Ja, good. Man woans kannst du so s??ker sien? Wat is de Bewies? L??tt- or
> Grootschrieven or annere Saken vun w??gen Schrievwies' s??nd keen Bewiesen.
>
Weten do ik dat nich. Aver mi d??cht, dat is nich n??dig, antonehmen, dat dat
en Substantiv is. Dat kann en Oord olen afslepen Gerundiv wesen oder dat
kann en Infinitiv wesen (wenn mien "Theorie" von en olen Gerundiv wohr is
[mag woll angahn, se is dat nich], denn m??ss sik wat finnen laten in ole
Texten oder in Dialekten, de noch en ??nnerscheed twischen Gerundiv un
Infinitiv maakt). So'n Infinitiv lett sik as Verb oder as Substantiv opfaten
(In "Nu geiht dat Blitzen un Dunnern los" hebbt wi ja to'n Bispeel ok en
Infinitiv, de allgemeen as Substantiv opfaat warrt), dat is keen bin??re
Fraag. Wenn du "Dat wardt Dauen" schriffst, will ik dor man ok gornix gegen
seggen (wo dull L????d sik ??ver de Frag Groot-/L????tschrieven - hett dat Woord
mehr Substantiv- oder mehr Verb-Charakter - strieden k????nt, hebbt wi ja bi
de Rechtschrievreform sehn).

Aver dat is op jeden Fall keen verhoochd????tscht Futur. "Dat warrt regen" is
ok op Hoochd????tsch grammatikaalsch ("Es wird regnen"), aver "nu kann't regen
warrn" is dat nich ("jetzt kann es regnen werden"). Import kann dat also
nich wesen. Utnahmen villicht, wi nehmt an, dat "dat warrt regen" un " nu
kann't regen warrn" s??nd twee ganz verscheden Konstrukte (dien List mit
"fangt j??stemang an" un "Tokamen" interpreteer ik so). Aver dat passt ok
nich. Denn all beid Konstrukte warrt f??r "fangt j??stemang an" bruukt un dat
Futur warrt anners konstrueert.

Ik gah dor also von ut, dat dat en oold Gerundiv is, oder dat dat alternativ
warrn + Infinitiv is, wat aver blot de Form na mit't hoochd????tsche Futur
??vereen is, un en egenst??nnig plattd????tsch Konstrukt is.

Marcus Buck

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/664d7677/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:01:23 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:01:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.070123.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marsha Wilson <marshatrue at gmail.com>
Subject:

I'm curious about the origin and meaning of the word "peawadden," as in
"that scared the peawadden out of me."
Any ideas?
Marsha Wilson
Mt. Angel, Oregon

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/e83b0556/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:02:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:02:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (03) [NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.070257.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.03 (04) [EN]

Beste allen,

In West-Vlaanderen is dit Verkavelingsvlaams minder populair, om niet te
zeggen ongewenst.
In het dialect klinkt het trouwens als:

"zie je doa?" (ben je daar?)
of met beklemtoning: "zie je gie doar?"
"je ziet doa!"
"je zie gie doa!"

"doe je da?"
"doe je gie da?"
"je doet da!"
"je doe gie da!"

In het West-Vlaams worden "je" en "jouw" en "jullie", in tegenstelling tot
de andere Vlaamse dialecten gebruikt, nl. als "je", "joen" en "junder".
Je zie gie lik joen broere ??n olletwai lik junder voader!
Jij bent net als je broer en beiden zoals jullie vader.

Het T.V.-Vlaams, als "wat doede?", "wa zegde"? is in het West-Vlaams dus
niet te horen.

Roland Desnerck
Oostende
West-Vlaanderen
Belgi??

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/e6dc34aa/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:29:13 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:29:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.072913.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L: vocabulary

 The Dutch "*tof*" is now also officially French and will be listed in the
Larousse 2010.
Regards,
Roger

*Annex 1:*

*Tof, Obama* est dans le Petit Larousse 2010 !
BELGA
vendredi 05 juin 2009, 14:58
Le Petit Larousse, version 2010, s???enrichit d???une centaine de nouveaux mots,
locutions, sens et expressions. Des personnalit??s y font ??galement leur
entr??e, dont le pr??sident Barack Obama. Et le super belgicisme ?? *tof *??.
Sortie le 15 juin.
*Tof, Obama* est dans le Petit Larousse 2010 !
?? AP.
Un bon nombre des nouveaux mots du Petit Larousse ??dition 2010 se rapportent
aux technologies et aux nouveaux usages culturels. Font ainsi leur entr??e :
*e-learning* (apprentissage sur base du multim??dia), *buzz *(retentissement
m??diatique), *geek* (accro d???Internet), *mobinaute* (utilisateur d???Internet
?? partir d???un appareil mobile), *peer to peer* (??change direct de donn??es
entre ordinateurs reli??s ?? Internet), *webradio, webt??l??, e-book* (livre
num??ris??), *poster *(publier sur Internet), *adresse IP* (num??ro
d???identification d???un appareil connect?? ?? Internet), *r??seau social, Web
2.0, vid??o ?? la demande, hame??onnage* (technique de fraude par courriel)???
Quatre mots typiquement belges sont d??sormais r??pertori??s dans le
dictionnaire : *horeca*, *lacquemant* (une gaufrette ovale fourr??e de sirop
de sucre brun aromatis?? ?? la fleur d???oranger, sp??cialit?? li??geoise), *
nominette* et *tof *(super, extra).
Le Larousse int??gre aussi de nouvelles expressions : *empreinte ??cologique,
effet yo-yo* (alternance de prise et de perte de poids), *fumer la moquette,
point barre !, au taquet, trouble du comportement alimentaire, faire une
saucette* (expression qu??b??coise signifiant faire trempette)???
Si des personnalit??s font une entr??e relativement rapide dans le
Larousse (*Barack
Obama, Audrey Tautou, S??bastien Loeb*), d???autres auront d?? patienter plus
longtemps. C???est le cas de *Fanny Ardant, Jane Birkin, Francis Cabrel,
Hillary Clinton, George Clooney, Jean-Pierre Marielle, Jean Rochefort*.
Trois nouveaux venus sont belges : *Herman Van Rompuy*, le
math??maticien *Jacques
Tits* (fran??ais d???origine belge) et le danseur et chor??graphe *Wim
Vandekeybus.*
quoted from:
http://www.lesoir.be/culture/livres/tof-obama-est-dans-le-petit-2009-06-05-710519.shtml

*Annex 2*: As it is listed on the WNT CDROM

*TOF (I),* bnw. en bijw. Ontleening van hebr. t??b ???goed???. Verg.: dof(t),
duf(t) (MARTIN u. LIENHARDT, Els??ss. Ma.); toff, tofft enz. (SCHMELLER,
Bayer. Wtb.); tof (FISCHER, Schw??b. Wtb.). Bargoensch woord, in het geheele
ndl. taalgebied als zoodanig in gebruik (zie MOORMANN, Bronnenb., Reg.); als
???slang??? -woord algemeen bekend in de straattaal van de holl. groote steden
en de omgeving daarvan. MOORMANN geeft voor Groenstraat den bijvorm toft (p.
256), SCHUERM. voor L. v. Aalst toef; bovendien vermeldt MOORMANN, Bronnenb.
450 nog: toffiel (jargon van een paardenhandelaar); zie ook beneden onder
Afl.
Positief waardeerend woord, dat b. v. de volgende bet. kan hebben.
1) Van zaken. Betrouwbaar, degelijk, goed van kwaliteit. Barg. || Toef
(kramerslatijn), goed, wel, of het tegenovergestelde van: loensch: dat zijn
toeffe zaken, SCHUERM. [L. v. Aalst, 1870]. Toffe truk, goede waar,
MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 239 [St.-Truiden, 1892]. Tof, goed, 440 [jargon paarden-
en veekoopers, 1917]. Toft??hens, goed geld, 256 [Groenstraat, 1924]. FONCKE,
Mech. Dial. 64 [1932].
??? Als bijw. || Hij kwam er tof af, VERWOERT, bij MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 208 [??
1860]. Hij is tof in de kloften, hij is goed gekleed, Ald. Mechels maast tof
gepierd, ik heb wel gespeeld, 228 [Roeselare, 1890]. Tof, goed. Hij peest
tof, hij werkt goed, 375 a [Haaksbergen, 1922]. ??? Het plan van m'n
grootvader zaniker heb ik dan ook maar volvoerd en 't is me tof gelukt,
KOKADORUS, Amstelv. 52 [1909]. Zij verdienden zeer veel geld en zaten tof in
de klofte, V. AALST, Mart. en B. 112 [1944].
2) Van zaken, inz. van bepaalde omstandigheden, van een bepaald feit.
Aangenaam, lekker, prettig, gezellig, leuk en derg. Ook als uitroep, die
soms instemming te kennen geeft; vandaar de omschrijving ???ja??? die door
MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 287 voor de streek van Aalst opgegeven wordt. || Toffe
schoentjes (Zaandamsch, ook te Amst., en ook wel elders), Aant. v.
BOEKENOOGEN [?? 1890]. Vin je dat niet tof, aardig, gezellig, Aant. v. A.
BEETS [Heiloo, 1892]. Hoe tof, Ald. Tof. Dat is tof, of alleen: tof! = goed,
leuk, prettig, MEIJER, Woorden 112 [1919]. ??? Hij speult een rolletje, dat
tof is. Hij speult voor den Ongeduldigen, BODDAERT, Po??t. en Proz. Port. 163
[ed. post. 1836]. ???Gerookte paling, dikke.??? ???Dat's tof,??? schreeuwt de
snijer, die dol op paling is, V. MAURIK, Amst. bij D. en N. 79 [1897].
Kerwelsoep is ... 'n tof ete bij mijn gezond, HEIJERMANS, Sabbath 63 [1903].
Stormweer, j?? ??? maar toch t??f, om je kop eens fijn uit te laten ragen aan
den dijk, BRUSSE, O. M. 2, 290 [1918]. ???Gaan we bij m'n vrouw koffie drinken
en een lollige middag d'rvan maken. Goed???? ???Tof!??? riep Jan, DE JONG, F. v.
W. 346 [1928]. ???'t Is-t-er zeker een toffe boel, niet???? vroeg hij. ???Met al
die linke gozers daar bij mekaar???? 353 [1928]. De hele voorraad leit in 't
kippehok. Die kerel kan z'n eige mottig zoeke. Drie minute te laat was ie en
wij zate een kruisjassie te make, net of we al een uur bezig ware. Is ie
effe tof? BAKKER, Branding 217 [1941]. We mogen wel eens kankeren op die
goeie ouwe stad (t. w. Amsterdam), op zijn nauwe straten en vele hoge
bruggen, maar in ons hart vinden we het een toffe stad, DAAN, Hij zeit wat
50 [1948].
??? Als bijw. || Daar zit hij tof, BOUMAN [1871]. Dat is tof gemaakt
(Zaandamsch, ook te Amst. en ook wel elders), Aant. v. BOEKENOOGEN [?? 1890].
3) Van personen. Betrouwbaar, eerlijk, loyaal. Barg. || Tof, goed, degelijk;
ook kalm en eerlijk, Boevent. 68 [1906]. Tof gaje, goed volk, MOORMANN,
Bronnenb. 291 a [Tilburg-Schijndel, 1922]. Blijkbaar met mijn antwoord
tevreden stak hij de Nieuwendijk weer over om zijn kornuiten te vertellen,
dat die nieuwe wel ???tof??? was. Na een tijdje kwamen er tenminste een paar
naar me toe met de vaderlijke raad om op te passen voor ???stille russen???, Het
Vrije Volk 19 April 1947, 5.
4) Nauw hierbij aansluitend: prettig, vlot in den omgang, sympathiek,
???geschikt???. Blijkens een aant. van A. BEETS [1891] in Den Haag ook: lief,
gezegd van een kind enz. || Rebecca zou 'n tof meissie voor 'm zijn,
HEIJERMANS, Ghetto3 24 [1898]. 'n Tof pietschoppertje, een kedin klein
schorempie, BRUSSE, Boefje 160 [1903]. QUERIDO, Jordaan 1, 342 [1912]. Ik
was altijd fesoendeluk: ... nooit 'n ander gehad as die ou?? zeurige saaierd,
die toffe slaapmus, thuis, SMEDING, Stil St. 1, 102 [1920]. Pienter is hij
en ??? wat de Amsterdammers noemen ??? ???tof???. Op z'n 25 jarig jubileum ... heeft
'n feestredenaar gezegd: ???Er zijn drie groote Louis: Louis Bouwmeester,
Louis de Vries en Louis Davids, maar Davids is de ???tofste???, E. VISSER,
Nederl. Cabaret 96 [1920]. In welke kazerne je lag. O, dan kon je net een
boodschap voor 'em doen .... Natuurlik wou je voor zo'n toffe kapitein graag
wat doen, DE JONG, F. v. W. 356 [1928]. Een lollige vrijer (of een lekkere
knul) is een leuke kerel, een toffe vent, DAAN, Hij zeit wat 48 [1948].
??? Zeer gewoon in de uitdrukking toffe jongen, graag pretmakende, ???lollige???
jongen of man, fideele kerel, vlot in den omgang. In het barg. valt de
nadruk wellicht meer op het eerlijk-, betrouwbaar-zijn. || Toffe jongens,
goede, echte, prettige lui. Ook wel ironisch, MEIJER, Woorden 112 [1919]. ???
Zie dien sergeant! Wat wil hij toch ...? Wacht, daar staat hij ... en
spreekt .... met een zeer lief meisje .... Nu, hij is dan ook een toffe
jongen, Alm. v. Holl. Blijgeest. 1841, 71. B. is 'n toffe jongen,
HEIJERMANS, Diamantstad 121 [1904]. Hij had gedacht bij deze twee toffe
jongens een reuzensucces te hebben met zijn verhaal, DE JONG, F. v. W. 352
[1928]. PHILIPS, Bruiloft in Europa8 28 [1934]. En dat we toffe jongens
zijn, dat willen we weten, Begin v. e. alg. bekenden volksdeun.
??? Voor andere dan de in de hoofddefinitie genoemde taalkringen geldt toffe
jongen ter aanduiding van een brani-achtigen jongeman uit een bepaalde
maatschappelijke groep. || Een oploopje op straat ..., veel publiek uit
Zutphens achterbuurten, de toffe jongens van de Leugenbrug, MEINSMA, De
Zwarte Dood 127 [1924]. Een onsympathieke toffe jongen, een flinkdoenerige
kwast met zijn praatjes en zijn eeuwige whiskeyflesch, L. HUIZINGA, Tien gl.
wijn 14 [1942].
5) Bepaaldelijk van een meisje: mooi, knap. Barg. || Tof, goed, schoon, wel,
braaf; een t??ve geeze, een schoon meisje, MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 273 b
[Rotwelsch v. Brussel, 1897]. Een toffe meid, een knappe meid, DE VRIES
[1909]. ??? Anders 'n toffe mokkel .... Maar waas gibt d??s? .... Geen cent op
de wereld, HEIJERMANS, Sabbath 87 [1903].
Afl. ??? Tofferen, van de vergrootende trap toffer (eveneens door MOORMANN,
Bronnenb. 149 vermeld voor Zele). Beteren. || 't Za wel tofferen, 't Zal wel
beteren, MOORMANN, t. a. p. [Zele, 1840].
??? Toffig, goed. Opgegeven voor zndl. handelscentra als Kortrijk, Roeselare,
Aalst, Gent, Brussel, Antw. Zie MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 287.
Samenst. Misschien is tofferad, dat door VERWOERT [?? 1860] wordt opgegeven
als benaming voor ???drie gulden??? (bij MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 212), als zoodanig
te beschouwen; t. a. p. wordt nl. rad opgegeven als benaming voor ???daalder???

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/4da4476e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 16:34:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:34:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (05) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.093454.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: marco [evenhuis van broekhoven] <marco at evenhoven.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (03) [NL]

Mensen,
Roland schreef:

In het West-Vlaams worden "je" en "jouw" en "jullie", in tegenstelling tot
de andere Vlaamse dialecten gebruikt, nl. als "je", "joen" en "junder".
Je zie gie lik joen broere ????n olletwai lik junder voader!
Jij bent net als je broer en beiden zoals jullie vader.

  *
*
Roland, ik vraag me af of in het West-Vlaams niet net als in het Zeeuws de
voorkeur voor de omschrijving 'van joe' ten opzichte van het bezittelijk
voornaamwoord  'joen' hand over hand toeneemt. Het Zeeuws staat minder sterk
ten opzichte van het standaardnederlands dan het West-Vlaams, dus het is
best mogelijk dat 'joen' bij jullie nog altijd de voorkeur heeft.

Voorbeelden:

is dat joen fiets? - is die fiets van joe?
dat 'uus dae lienks is toch 't joene? - dat 'uus dae lienks is toch van joe?

Jouw voorbeeld:
WVL: je zie gie lik joen broere en olletwai lik junder voader
Z: jie bin liek a die broer van joe / je broer en aollebeie liek as julder
vaoder

Groet!

Marco Evenhuis

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/1e60cf73/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 21:28:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:28:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (06) [NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.142840.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Roger,

You wrote:
**

*Roger Thijs** **raised the **topic of** "** **Verkavelingsvlaams,
Verkavelingsnederlands". In my opinion the main feature of this kind
of (reprehensible)
substandard Belgian Dutch, being neither standard Dutch nor dialect,
consists of using the inversed verbal forms for the second person, which
usually sound something like 'gade mee, doede gij' (ga je , doe jij). I
pride myself that my native tongue, Tiens (and also nearby Hoegaardens) is
the only dialect in all of Brabantish that has been spared this kind of what
I like to call "kreupel Nederlands". We say "gaat ge, doet gij" , **[?????x????]
[d????U xE?????]** **I'm qu**ite sure a lot of people might want to disagree. I'm
looking forward to your opinion and remarks.
*


Is it "een man" in Tiens or "ne man/ene man"? Does anybody north of the
Moerdijk still pronounce "station" the way we Southerners do...or is it
"stesjon"?

I mean, how many people are willing and able to speak standard 24/7? As a
teacher of math (in Zaventem), I'm trying to speak standard Dutch as often
as possible. However, I don't want to sound like Martine Tanghe when I'm out
there in the wild, camping with my students. Off the record, Martine Tanghe
does a perfectly fine job when she's reading the news, but there are
situations where her style just won't cut it...bonding, you know.

Students are very sensitive to the right vocabulary and I'm permanently
aware of that. As soon as I start using typical Northern Dutch expressions,
they react more or less as if I'm talking Swahili. Mix some English/French
in your speech and few will bother. Northern Dutch, they freeze. Some of my
students are "Hollanders" though, and when addressing them in private I will
swiftly switch registers again.

In a non-professional situation, most of the time I say:

"d??rre gaa" (instead of doe jij)
"gojrre gaa" (ga jij)
"m??tte gaa" (moet jij)
"z??rre d????" (ben je daar?)
"ge z?? gaa grat a bruu(r)...alle tw??e zjust aale pajt/v????r" (je bent
helemaal je broer...allebei sprekend jullie vader)

If one wants to express the similarity between two people, he could also
say:

"'t ??s z?? pajt op nen do??t" (op eenen duit < op ende uit)

Nowadays, "pajt" for "father" is used less and is generally perceived quite
vulgar (not among male teenagers though...rude boy slang effect). Another
(uncouth) way to describe similarity goes like this:

"'t ??s z?? pajt gescheetn"

No explanation needed I guess ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/5db3397b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 21:41:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:41:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.05 (07) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.144157.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Kornblume (Centaurea cyanus)

Ob Stadtl????d woll weiten, wat ein *Tr????ms's *is?

(??ber Stimmhaftigkeit oder -losigkeit des *s *l????t sich in den meisten
F??llen nichts aussagen, m.E. mit stimmlosem *s.*)
Tr????ms', Trems', Pl. -*sen*.
Weitere Bezeichnungen: *Kornblomen, Kuurnblaum, Tremissen', Thr??ms, Trehmse,
**Tremms, blage Tr????msen, Trems' *(mit stimmhaftem *-s*) G??Letschow.
Vgl.: *blag as 'ne Tremms; sin N??s' l??cht't as ne Trems' *WAMalch.
*Bet as 'ne Tr??ms' utseihn sin Lippen *REUT.
Volksglaube und -medizin: die Wurzel der Pflanze hilft gegen
*N??s'bl??den,*wenn sie in der Johannisnacht ausgegraben ist und man sie
so lange in der
Hand h??lt, bis sie warm wird.
*tr????msenblag' *kornblumenblau HARed.
Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert.

Tremissen, Trembsen, Tremse, Thr??ms, Trems, Tremms, Blagen Trems, Kurnblaum,
Sechel, Kaiserblaum.
Die schmucke Tremse stammt vom alts??chsischen, noch jetzt in England
lebenden trim, d.h. fein, h??bsch, schmuck. - "So bla'ch as 'ne Trems" sagt
man von einem Dinge, das ausserordentlich und wider die Gewohnheit blau ist.
Literatur: Die volkst??mlichen Pflanzennamen Mecklnburgs von *Ernst
Kr??ger,*Rostock 1916 (Archiv des Vereins der Freunde der
Naturgeschichte in
Mecklenburg. 71 Jahr (1917.)
Anmerkung: nach diesem Buch wurden die Blumen IGA Rostock nachrichtlich
benannt (und ich erwarb dieses sehr wertvolle und begehrte B??chlein 25.2.1993
im Antiquariat Schwerin .. 50,- DM.)

Vor paar Tagen sah ich in einem Vorgarten wunderch??ne
Tremsen, und gleich fiel mir dieser Beitrag ein.

Wie immer beste Gr????e.
Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/a785ec34/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 23:08:08 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:08:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.160808.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.04 (07) [EN]

> From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.05.26 (05) [EN]
> Roger Thijs raised the topic of " *Verkavelingsvlaams,
Verkavelingsnederlands". In my opinion the main feature of this kind
of (reprehensible)
substandard Belgian Dutch, being neither standard Dutch nor dialect,
consists of using the inversed verbal forms for the second person, which
usually sound something like 'gade mee, doede gij' (ga je , doe jij). I
pride myself that my native tongue, Tiens (and also nearby Hoegaardens) is
the only dialect in all of Brabantish that has been spared this kind of what
I like to call "kreupel Nederlands". We say "gaat ge, doet gij" , *[??x??] [d??
U xE??]* **I'm qu**ite sure a lot of people might want to disagree. I'm
looking forward to your opinion and remarks.
PS I hope the phonetic text will prove to be legible.*
**
**
Roger, I first wanted to say I didn't beleive you, but I did check the maps
in Weijnen's Nederlandse Dialectkunde and indeed the far south-east of
Vlaams-Brabant does not have the -de ending in the 2nd person as only
Brabantish dialects. What I still strongly disagree on however is that you
should take pride out of lacking this feature, finding that all other 2.7
mil Belgian Brabanders (and plenty more Dutch Brabanders) talk crippled
dutch because of this.
I don't say west-flems or Limburgers should take over this feature if it's
not part of their dialect, but in our 'contreien' it has been there since
the oldest Middelnederlands so at least historically (and etymologically) it
is at least equally correct as the (in my eyes forced) gaat ge. (I actually
hate people around here saying gaat ge or gaat gij because they think it
sounds more 'correct dutch'.)
I want to see one good reason why your gaat ge/gij would be "better dutch"
or even "better" in any way.
Greetings,
Diederik

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/15f15fc9/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  5 23:48:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:48:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (09) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JUN.2009.164821.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Marsha, you asked:

I'm curious about the origin and meaning of the word "peawadden," as in
"that scared the peawadden out of me."
Any ideas?

I can't find any etymological references for it at the moment, but I do have
a vague theory at least.

Looking at the context, it seems to be a "replacement" word for a word that
is not socially acceptable, typically considered either obscene or
blasphemous. Usually the first letter is a give-away. (Take your pick!)

At any rate, replacement words ("euphemisms" isn't the correct word) tend to
be chosen so as to be silly, nonsensical in the contexts within which they
are used, such as "bloody" for older "by our Lady", or "flippin'" or
"friggin'" for you-know-what.

So what might the meaning of "peawadden" or "pea-wadden" or "pea wadden" be?

Enter my theory, going back generations to the time of early European
settlement in America. And the expression seems to be American, or perhaps
rather *preserved* in American English.

Besides a type of edible legume, "pea" can stand for "pea-coat" or
"pea-jacket", known since the 18th century. This is supposed to go back to
Early Dutch *piejacke* > *pijjak*, a double-breasted sailor's jacket made
from *pie* > *pij*, a coarse type of fabric. (In Low Saxon we say *Piejack*
.)

Furthermore, I theorize that "wadden" comes from "waddin'", thus "wadding".
We are thus talking about a type of garment padding.

Go wad your pea with that!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090605/578823b4/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 16:00:30 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:00:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.090030.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (09) [EN]

Marsha and Ron. When Ron analyzed the word ???peawadden??? as derived from ???pij???
the heavy fabric of which the coats of travelling clergy and others were
made, I immediately reacted with ???stuffing???. That would be the left over
???pij??? used as the interlining for a newer coat. I remember a coat that was
interlined with an old jacket of my Dad???s which I wore to school at the end
of WWII. Might that just be possible. Jacqueline, Seattle/USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Wow, Jacqueline! Thanks. That was just a piece I needed to add weight to my
little theory.

It's repeated below for those that missed it, including our new member that
just joined us from Cape Town:

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Marsha, you asked:

I'm curious about the origin and meaning of the word "peawadden," as in
"that scared the peawadden out of me."
Any ideas?

I can't find any etymological references for it at the moment, but I do have
a vague theory at least.

Looking at the context, it seems to be a "replacement" word for a word that
is not socially acceptable, typically considered either obscene or
blasphemous. Usually the first letter is a give-away. (Take your pick!)

At any rate, replacement words ("euphemisms" isn't the correct word) tend to
be chosen so as to be silly, nonsensical in the contexts within which they
are used, such as "bloody" for older "by our Lady", or "flippin'" or
"friggin'" for you-know-what.

So what might the meaning of "peawadden" or "pea-wadden" or "pea wadden" be?

Enter my theory, going back generations to the time of early European
settlement in America. And the expression seems to be American, or perhaps
rather *preserved* in American English.

Besides a type of edible legume, "pea" can stand for "pea-coat" or
"pea-jacket", known since the 18th century. This is supposed to go back to
Early Dutch *piejacke**pijjak*, a double-breasted sailor's jacket made from
*pie* > *pij*, a coarse type of fabric. (In Low Saxon we say *Piejack*.)

Furthermore, I theorize that "wadden" comes from "waddin'", thus "wadding".
We are thus talking about a type of garment padding.

Go wad your pea with that!

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/84a019fc/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 16:02:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:02:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.06 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.090255.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.05 (01) [NDS]

Leve Marcus,

mid??cht, Du b??st da op wat st??tt. Hest Du mal op Hoochd????tsch en Wendung
h????rt as "Das macht mich staunen"? Orr kennst Du Bachmanns kaptaales Gedicht
"Und B??hmen liegt am Meer"? Da gifft dat de Reegn "Spielt die Kom??dien, die
lachen machen / und die zum Weinen sind." Dat schient mi des??lvige
Ik-weer-mal-en-Gerundiv-Foorm to ween, man dat warrt l??tt schreven, as Verb.
Man op Hoochd????tsch kenn ik dat bloots mit "machen". Man... is villicht
"lassen" grammatikaalsch bloots an des??lvige Stee treden? Is "Das l??sst mich
staunen" un "Das macht mich staunen" villicht des??lvige Konstrukschoon? Ik
weet dat nich, man een vun Juuch Spraakkoryph??en weet doch wiss wat dorto!
;-)

Hartlich!

Marlou

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/7d83362a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 16:34:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:34:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.06 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.093404.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Suffix -*ing*

Hallo all' Lowland-ings (*ings *Pl.)

H??sung, -ing
Das ??ber das *Hus *(Haus) Gesagte bedarf einer Erg??nzung.
H??sung/H??sing : die Behausung, das Obdach, die Wohnung.
Ein Beleg aus dem Jahre 1411 lautet: *Wi willen diese vorbenoemde H??singe
nemand verkopen. *Sp??ter gewann dann dieses Wort jene pr??gnante Bedeutung
'Niederlassungsrecht und damit verbunden der Anspruch auf eine Wohnung'. Und
in dieser Bedeutung ist das Wort dann durch Fritz Reuter in die Literatur
von Rang eingegangen. Er hat sein Versepos *Kein H??sung *zeit seines Lebens
f??r sein bestes Werk gehalten und von ihm gesagt, er habe es mit seinem
Herzblut geschrieben.
Suffix *-ing *H??sing. Dieses *-ing*  ist aber nicht gemeint, sondern ein
anderes. In *H??uhning, D??chting. *Und dann haben wir es in *Mudding, *
jener z??rtlichen, liebevollen Benennung der Mutter. *Min leiw Mudding.*
Es ist also ein Suffix, das W??rter zu Kosew??rtern macht. Un dieses
Kosesuffix -*ing, *wie wir es einmal nennen wollen, ist eines der
Hauptmerkmale der mecklenburgischen Mundart und nur ihr allein eigen. Es ist
eine sprachgeschichtlich junge Bildung.
1789 finden wir sie zum ersten Mal in der Anrede *Br??ding, *Br??derchen.
Wir k??nnen noch einmal Reuter erw??hnen:
Sein *Tw??schenpoor */Zwillingspaar in der Stromtid *Lining *und* Mining, de
beiden Druwappel*, *sind Gestalten der Weltliteratur geworden.
Heute kann *-ing *fast schon an jedes Wort angeh??ngt werden.
*Wo s??hst du blassing ut, k??mming mal her *und sogar, und das h??rt man heute
nicht selten, *tsch????ing!*
Literatur: J??rgen Grundlach *Von Aant bis Z??g'*  Plattdeutsche W??rter und
Wendungen
ZENTRALHAUS - PUBLIKATION . LEIPZIG 1982
Anmerkung: Dr. J??rgen Gundlach (Wismar) nahm 1952 die Mitarbeit am
W??rterbuch (Wossidlo/Teuchert) auf - bei den Buchstaben *Kl.*
1965 ??bernahm der die Leitung der Warnem??nder Arbeitsstelle. Bis zu seiner
Pensionierung 1991 konnte er gemeinsam mit seinen Mitarbeitern das
W??rterbuch-Vorhaben erfolgreich abschlie??en. Mit der 70. Lieferung zum 7.
und  letzten Band lag das W??rterbuch vor.
(Wi kennen uns gaut un hebben girn 'n Str??mel up Platt vertellt.)

* Druwappel: Traubapfel, Traub??pfel

H??t denn mal *Tsch????ing.*
Hanne Hinz-*ing.*

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Folks,

Here just an explanatory note from me to say that the suffix *-ing* our *
Hinzing* or *Hanning* writes about above has nothing to do with the common
West Germanic suffix *-ing ~ -ung* but is a diminutive suffix unique to the
Low Saxon dialects of Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania, an area that used
to be predominantly Slavic speaking.

Many of you will probably remember that I mention it once in a while as a
most probably Slavic-derived diminutive suffix: *-inka* > *-ink ~ -ing*.

As you can see in the info Hanne posted, the suffix may be added even to
words other than nouns, such as to the German loan adjective *blass* (pale)
and to the Germanized imperative form of the verb 'to come':
*k??mming!*("Real", "pure" Low Saxon strictly uses the verb root as the
singular
imperative form, thus *kamen* 'to come' -> *kaam!* 'come!', but under German
influence *kumm!* and such are used sporadically in the process of *
Sprachverfall* "language decay".) The above examples happen to be cases of
German interference. But I understand that the use of *-ing* is not
restricted to such cases. Hanne also uses it with *tsch????* (~ *adsch????*)
'good-bye'. (This happens to be of foreign origin too, assumed to be from
French *adieu*, though I still wonder about the *-s* and if it might not
come from Spanish *adios*, possibly loaned during the Spanish-Dutch
conflicts.) Again, *-ing* is not restricted to loanwords.

*Un tsch????ing ook vun mi.
*
Reinhard (Reinke ~ Reining)/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/76a08c6c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 21:44:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:44:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.144411.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.06 (03) [DE-EN]

>From Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote: re Tsch????   (This happens to be of foreign origin too,
assumed to be from French *adieu* , though I still wonder about the *-s* and
if it might not come from Spanish *adios* , possibly loaned during the
Spanish-Dutch conflicts.)

I had always assumed that it came from the English " Cheers!" which would
explain the 's'.

Sadly for that theory we say Cheerio! to say Goodbye   and "Cheers!" as a
toast when we drink.

But "Cheers" is also used as a kind of "Thank you"

The sounds are so close that maybe there is an older use of "Cheers" instead
of "Cheerio" that it derives from.

Possible????

best wishes

Heather  from a (delightfully) rain drenched Worcestershire after 5 days of
temperatures higher than those in the Mediterranean !
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Heather!

You mentioned this theory on an earlier occasion. I must say that I find
something "attractive" about it, considering long-time contacts with English
among sailors of Northern Germany. Also, what I like is that you dare to
stretch etymologically.

The problem with it seems to be that apparently *tsch????* (which, as you
know, came to be imported into German) appears to come from *adsch????.*

Now ...  let's mix this up some more and ask if conversely "cheers!" for
"good-bye" might have been "inspired" by *tsch????!*, aided by "cheers!" for
"thanks!"...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA, where we got tired of the tropical heat and sent it off to
Europe

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/ed56395a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 21:32:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:32:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.06 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.143200.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.06 (03) [DE-EN]


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Here just an explanatory note from me to say that the suffix /-ing/ our
> /Hinzing/ or /Hanning/ writes about above has nothing to do with the common
> West Germanic suffix /-ing ~ -ung/ but is a diminutive suffix unique to the
> Low Saxon dialects of Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania, an area that used
> to be predominantly Slavic speaking.
>
> Many of you will probably remember that I mention it once in a while as a
> most probably Slavic-derived diminutive suffix: /-inka/ > /-ink ~ -ing/.
>
> As you can see in the info Hanne posted, the suffix may be added even to
> words other than nouns, such as to the German loan adjective /blass/ (pale)
> and to the Germanized imperative form of the verb 'to come': /k??mming!/
> ("Real", "pure" Low Saxon strictly uses the verb root as the singular
> imperative form, thus /kamen/ 'to come' -> /kaam!/ 'come!', but under German
> influence /kumm!/ and such are used sporadically in the process of
> /Sprachverfall/ "language decay".)
>
Is it a general rule, that the imperative derives from the root? I've seen
many examples of forms both derived from the root and from the 2nd/3rd
person form from all regions and many different times. Until now I wasn't
able to find any system. Sadly none of the Wenker maps contains an
imperative that helps in this question. I suspect that it could be a matter
of dialect (although German influence plays a big role too. But perhaps not
the only role).

But in this case it is not necessary to blame German influence. Some
dialects have lengthened the vowel to 'komen' (and subsequently 'kamen'),
but many others have kept the older unlengthened form 'kommen'. I think,
there's a Wenker map for that, but the DIWA website is inaccessible at the
moment. So 'k??mming' could just as well be "real" Low Saxon.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks, Marcus.

The rule, which is the same as in Dutch and other Low Frankish varieties
(?), seems to be applying to all language varieties that I have been
studying, certainly of the northern range and in what we may want to label
"modern" (going back to the 19th-century Romantic Movement). All of these
have the vowel lengthening you mentioned, a rule that did not affect the
second and third persons singular. (I've always thought of the
non-lengthening varieties as geographically marginal, but I may be wrong
there.)

In the varieties in whose imperative formation I've been assuming German
interference such forms seem to occur sporadically, typically *komm! ~ kumm!
* ~ *k??mm!*, such as in Groth's works (in Dithmarschen dialect) and in the
song "Dat du mien Leevsten b??st" (*Kumm bi de Nacht ...*)

Anyway, I think it would be really interesting to get to the bottom of this.
I suggest that we are dealing with interference where only a handfull of
verbs have abberrant imperative forms, including vowel shortening in
varieties that did not consistently undergo it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/d925cd3b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  6 22:24:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:24:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.06 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.152427.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

Seattle, USA, where we got tired of the tropical heat and sent it off to
Europe


Speaking of Europe and the USA, and the ocean that separates them, I know
that jokingly it's sometimes referred to as the pond. I wonder if the
Atlantic also has nicknames that hint more at its vast, brutal and dangerous
character (thinking of Titanic and a recent plane crash). Low Saxon has
"Blanke Hans" for the North Sea and given the maritime culture of the
Lowlands, I was thinking such names may exist for the Atlantic Ocean as
well. Who knows?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/1b0f228a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 00:20:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 17:20:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2009.06.06 (07) [AF]
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JUN.2009.172020.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: dealangeam <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" [A]

Beste Ron,

Ek weet nie of die volgende intligting al op die poslyn verskyn het nie.

 Laaglanders kan na Afrikaans luister op die sender ???Radio Sonder Grense???
(RSG).

Met internet is dit ook beskikbaar by

http://www.rsg.co.za/

Klik net op ???Luister???. Lank lewe Afrikaans.

Mooi loop

At de Lange
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Baie dankie, beste At!

Dis die eerste keer dat ek die bostaande boodskap ontvang het.

Ja, RSG is werklik 'n uitstekende hulpbron vir Afrikaans-sprekers en
-leerders in die hele w??reld. Dankie vir die wenk.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, VSA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090606/5d2bc454/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 15:18:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:18:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.07 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.081838.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Breitwegerich als Orakel

Leiw' Fr??nn',
ick fang hier mit'n "Kindergedicht" an un verklor denn nahstens de Saak.

*Fifaderblatt du Loegenblatt*
(6. Fassung 14.06.1988)

Fifaderblatt, du Loegenblatt
dau mi upstunds vertellen,
wenn ick mi soeben Kinner w??nsch',
wov??l warst du mi mellen?

Ick pl??ck di af, ick riet di af,
krieg bi den' St??hl di fungen,
un tell an em de B??nner nah,
wer weit't, ob Dirn, ob Jungen...

Na, wat is dat! Wat is denn dat?
Wat sall denn dit nu heiten?
So St??cker soeben ick bestell,
man, twei l??tst du mi weiten.

Du Loegenblatt! Du Loegenblatt!
Lat mit den' Wind di fleigen.
Wat sall ick blot mit twei l??tt' Goern, -
ick lat mi nich bedreigen!

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*W??g'blatt *n. Gro??er Wegerich, plantago major; plantago 'Wegeblad';
*W??geblad,* meist Pl.: *W??hgbl??der, Wegbl??der, Bred Wegbl??der,
W??g'bl??der, *benutzt
als Heilmittel f??r Wunden und Impfpocken, *utwr??usen/*ausdr??cken,
ausquetschen; *W??g'bl??der w??rden ok rookt; W??g'bl??der sall 'n bi sick
dr??gen, denn fecht't einen nicks an*; die Kinder rei??en ein Blatt ab und
betrachten die herausragenden Blattnerven als Orakel, das die Zahl ihrer
zuk??nftigen Kinder anzeigt oder, das einem M??dchen die Zahl der Jahre
anzeigt, bis es heiratet.

Syn.: *Aderkrut, Br??jamsbl??der, Fifaderblatt, -krut, L??genblatt *(von legen)
*, Vagelsaat, W??g'breid', -tritt, -w??ttel, Unvertred *Reut.

Die Kinder/M??dchen nannten es auch *Loegenblatt/*L??genblatt, haben sie nun
ihren Wunsch gelogen, oder war die Anzahl der wei??en F??den
eine L??ge.* *Urspr??nglich aber *L??ge-Blatt *: Blatt, das man auf Wunden
legt, damit sie heilen.
**
Man kannt't je mal vers??uken ...

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/71d54259/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 15:55:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:55:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.07 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.085520.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.06 (03) [DE-EN]

Ron wrote:

"Folks,

Here just an explanatory note from me to say that the suffix *-ing* our *
Hinzing* or *Hanning* writes about above has nothing to do with the common
West Germanic suffix *-ing ~ -ung* but is a diminutive suffix unique to the
Low Saxon dialects of Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania, an area that used
to be predominantly Slavic speaking.

Many of you will probably remember that I mention it once in a while as a
most probably Slavic-derived diminutive suffix: *-inka* > *-ink ~ -ing*."
*****************************************************************

In what way does this differ from the *ing* suffix seen in Anglo-Saxon place
names meaning "people or children of ..." such as Hastings (*Hastingas* -
Hasta's people)  Nottingham (*Snotingasham* - home of Snota's people)?

Or in modern English diminuitives like "fledgling" (a little bird),
"fingerling" (a little fish) etc?

Are these ultimately of Slavic origin?

Paul
Derby
England

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi, Paul!

The suffixes you are talking about seem to be Germanic ones.

In the sense of "person/people of ..." "-ing" can be found in "Fleming" ~ *
vlaming* and such. I don't think it has a diminutive quality, certainly no
endearing one.

As for "-ling", it has an "l" in it of course. It may be a compound suffix,
but I don't think anyone can be sure. Originally it tended to denote
something small (such as in "starling" and the more recently created
"fledgling" and "fingerling"), rarely in an endearing way (as in "dear" >
"darling"), perhaps even in a pejorative way, such as in "underling" and
"hireling".

The suffix *-ling* may be old but occurs only sporadically, such as in the
German word *Schmetterling* for 'butterfly', originally from today's state
of Saxony, thus of Eastern Central German origin. Given its eastern origin,
it may be of Slavic background and thus coincide with English "-ling". I
don't know.

I am not suggesting that we should automatically assume Slavic origin when
words and suffixes are unique to Germanic varieties used in formerly
Slavic-speaking regions. But the *-ink ~ -ing* of Mecklenburg has an
overridingly endearing quality like Slavic *-inka*, and it is used just like
it. Furthermore, its western boundary pretty much coincides with that of the
former western boundary of Slavic varieties.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/e7caa1b3/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 16:22:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:22:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.092200.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L: vocabulary

 The Dutch "*tof*" is now also officially French and will be listed in the
Larousse 2010.
Regards,
Roger

*Annex 1:*

*Tof, Obama* est dans le Petit Larousse 2010 !
BELGA
vendredi 05 juin 2009, 14:58
Le Petit Larousse, version 2010, s???enrichit d???une centaine de nouveaux mots,
locutions, sens et expressions. Des personnalit??s y font ??galement leur
entr??e, dont le pr??sident Barack Obama. Et le super belgicisme ?? *tof *??.
Sortie le 15 juin.
*Tof, Obama* est dans le Petit Larousse 2010 !
?? AP.
Un bon nombre des nouveaux mots du Petit Larousse ??dition 2010 se rapportent
aux technologies et aux nouveaux usages culturels. Font ainsi leur entr??e :
*e-learning* (apprentissage sur base du multim??dia), *buzz *(retentissement
m??diatique), *geek* (accro d???Internet), *mobinaute* (utilisateur d???Internet
?? partir d???un appareil mobile), *peer to peer* (??change direct de donn??es
entre ordinateurs reli??s ?? Internet), *webradio, webt??l??, e-book* (livre
num??ris??), *poster *(publier sur Internet), *adresse IP* (num??ro
d???identification d???un appareil connect?? ?? Internet), *r??seau social, Web
2.0, vid??o ?? la demande, hame??onnage* (technique de fraude par courriel)???
Quatre mots typiquement belges sont d??sormais r??pertori??s dans le
dictionnaire : *horeca*, *lacquemant* (une gaufrette ovale fourr??e de sirop
de sucre brun aromatis?? ?? la fleur d???oranger, sp??cialit?? li??geoise), *
nominette* et *tof *(super, extra).
Le Larousse int??gre aussi de nouvelles expressions : *empreinte ??cologique,
effet yo-yo* (alternance de prise et de perte de poids), *fumer la moquette,
point barre !, au taquet, trouble du comportement alimentaire, faire une
saucette* (expression qu??b??coise signifiant faire trempette)???
Si des personnalit??s font une entr??e relativement rapide dans le
Larousse (*Barack
Obama, Audrey Tautou, S??bastien Loeb*), d???autres auront d?? patienter plus
longtemps. C???est le cas de *Fanny Ardant, Jane Birkin, Francis Cabrel,
Hillary Clinton, George Clooney, Jean-Pierre Marielle, Jean Rochefort*.
Trois nouveaux venus sont belges : *Herman Van Rompuy*, le
math??maticien *Jacques
Tits* (fran??ais d???origine belge) et le danseur et chor??graphe *Wim
Vandekeybus.*
quoted from:
http://www.lesoir.be/culture/livres/tof-obama-est-dans-le-petit-2009-06-05-710519.shtml

*Annex 2*: As it is listed on the WNT CDROM

*TOF (I),* bnw. en bijw. Ontleening van hebr. t??b ???goed???. Verg.: dof(t),
duf(t) (MARTIN u. LIENHARDT, Els??ss. Ma.); toff, tofft enz. (SCHMELLER,
Bayer. Wtb.); tof (FISCHER, Schw??b. Wtb.). Bargoensch woord, in het geheele
ndl. taalgebied als zoodanig in gebruik (zie MOORMANN, Bronnenb., Reg.); als
???slang??? -woord algemeen bekend in de straattaal van de holl. groote steden
en de omgeving daarvan. MOORMANN geeft voor Groenstraat den bijvorm toft (p.
256), SCHUERM. voor L. v. Aalst toef; bovendien vermeldt MOORMANN, Bronnenb.
450 nog: toffiel (jargon van een paardenhandelaar); zie ook beneden onder
Afl.
Positief waardeerend woord, dat b. v. de volgende bet. kan hebben.
1) Van zaken. Betrouwbaar, degelijk, goed van kwaliteit. Barg. || Toef
(kramerslatijn), goed, wel, of het tegenovergestelde van: loensch: dat zijn
toeffe zaken, SCHUERM. [L. v. Aalst, 1870]. Toffe truk, goede waar,
MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 239 [St.-Truiden, 1892]. Tof, goed, 440 [jargon paarden-
en veekoopers, 1917]. Toft??hens, goed geld, 256 [Groenstraat, 1924]. FONCKE,
Mech. Dial. 64 [1932].
??? Als bijw. || Hij kwam er tof af, VERWOERT, bij MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 208 [??
1860]. Hij is tof in de kloften, hij is goed gekleed, Ald. Mechels maast tof
gepierd, ik heb wel gespeeld, 228 [Roeselare, 1890]. Tof, goed. Hij peest
tof, hij werkt goed, 375 a [Haaksbergen, 1922]. ??? Het plan van m'n
grootvader zaniker heb ik dan ook maar volvoerd en 't is me tof gelukt,
KOKADORUS, Amstelv. 52 [1909]. Zij verdienden zeer veel geld en zaten tof in
de klofte, V. AALST, Mart. en B. 112 [1944].
2) Van zaken, inz. van bepaalde omstandigheden, van een bepaald feit.
Aangenaam, lekker, prettig, gezellig, leuk en derg. Ook als uitroep, die
soms instemming te kennen geeft; vandaar de omschrijving ???ja??? die door
MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 287 voor de streek van Aalst opgegeven wordt. || Toffe
schoentjes (Zaandamsch, ook te Amst., en ook wel elders), Aant. v.
BOEKENOOGEN [?? 1890]. Vin je dat niet tof, aardig, gezellig, Aant. v. A.
BEETS [Heiloo, 1892]. Hoe tof, Ald. Tof. Dat is tof, of alleen: tof! = goed,
leuk, prettig, MEIJER, Woorden 112 [1919]. ??? Hij speult een rolletje, dat
tof is. Hij speult voor den Ongeduldigen, BODDAERT, Po??t. en Proz. Port. 163
[ed. post. 1836]. ???Gerookte paling, dikke.??? ???Dat's tof,??? schreeuwt de
snijer, die dol op paling is, V. MAURIK, Amst. bij D. en N. 79 [1897].
Kerwelsoep is ... 'n tof ete bij mijn gezond, HEIJERMANS, Sabbath 63 [1903].
Stormweer, j?? ??? maar toch t??f, om je kop eens fijn uit te laten ragen aan
den dijk, BRUSSE, O. M. 2, 290 [1918]. ???Gaan we bij m'n vrouw koffie drinken
en een lollige middag d'rvan maken. Goed???? ???Tof!??? riep Jan, DE JONG, F. v.
W. 346 [1928]. ???'t Is-t-er zeker een toffe boel, niet???? vroeg hij. ???Met al
die linke gozers daar bij mekaar???? 353 [1928]. De hele voorraad leit in 't
kippehok. Die kerel kan z'n eige mottig zoeke. Drie minute te laat was ie en
wij zate een kruisjassie te make, net of we al een uur bezig ware. Is ie
effe tof? BAKKER, Branding 217 [1941]. We mogen wel eens kankeren op die
goeie ouwe stad (t. w. Amsterdam), op zijn nauwe straten en vele hoge
bruggen, maar in ons hart vinden we het een toffe stad, DAAN, Hij zeit wat
50 [1948].
??? Als bijw. || Daar zit hij tof, BOUMAN [1871]. Dat is tof gemaakt
(Zaandamsch, ook te Amst. en ook wel elders), Aant. v. BOEKENOOGEN [?? 1890].
3) Van personen. Betrouwbaar, eerlijk, loyaal. Barg. || Tof, goed, degelijk;
ook kalm en eerlijk, Boevent. 68 [1906]. Tof gaje, goed volk, MOORMANN,
Bronnenb. 291 a [Tilburg-Schijndel, 1922]. Blijkbaar met mijn antwoord
tevreden stak hij de Nieuwendijk weer over om zijn kornuiten te vertellen,
dat die nieuwe wel ???tof??? was. Na een tijdje kwamen er tenminste een paar
naar me toe met de vaderlijke raad om op te passen voor ???stille russen???, Het
Vrije Volk 19 April 1947, 5.
4) Nauw hierbij aansluitend: prettig, vlot in den omgang, sympathiek,
???geschikt???. Blijkens een aant. van A. BEETS [1891] in Den Haag ook: lief,
gezegd van een kind enz. || Rebecca zou 'n tof meissie voor 'm zijn,
HEIJERMANS, Ghetto3 24 [1898]. 'n Tof pietschoppertje, een kedin klein
schorempie, BRUSSE, Boefje 160 [1903]. QUERIDO, Jordaan 1, 342 [1912]. Ik
was altijd fesoendeluk: ... nooit 'n ander gehad as die ou?? zeurige saaierd,
die toffe slaapmus, thuis, SMEDING, Stil St. 1, 102 [1920]. Pienter is hij
en ??? wat de Amsterdammers noemen ??? ???tof???. Op z'n 25 jarig jubileum ... heeft
'n feestredenaar gezegd: ???Er zijn drie groote Louis: Louis Bouwmeester,
Louis de Vries en Louis Davids, maar Davids is de ???tofste???, E. VISSER,
Nederl. Cabaret 96 [1920]. In welke kazerne je lag. O, dan kon je net een
boodschap voor 'em doen .... Natuurlik wou je voor zo'n toffe kapitein graag
wat doen, DE JONG, F. v. W. 356 [1928]. Een lollige vrijer (of een lekkere
knul) is een leuke kerel, een toffe vent, DAAN, Hij zeit wat 48 [1948].
??? Zeer gewoon in de uitdrukking toffe jongen, graag pretmakende, ???lollige???
jongen of man, fideele kerel, vlot in den omgang. In het barg. valt de
nadruk wellicht meer op het eerlijk-, betrouwbaar-zijn. || Toffe jongens,
goede, echte, prettige lui. Ook wel ironisch, MEIJER, Woorden 112 [1919]. ???
Zie dien sergeant! Wat wil hij toch ...? Wacht, daar staat hij ... en
spreekt .... met een zeer lief meisje .... Nu, hij is dan ook een toffe
jongen, Alm. v. Holl. Blijgeest. 1841, 71. B. is 'n toffe jongen,
HEIJERMANS, Diamantstad 121 [1904]. Hij had gedacht bij deze twee toffe
jongens een reuzensucces te hebben met zijn verhaal, DE JONG, F. v. W. 352
[1928]. PHILIPS, Bruiloft in Europa8 28 [1934]. En dat we toffe jongens
zijn, dat willen we weten, Begin v. e. alg. bekenden volksdeun.
??? Voor andere dan de in de hoofddefinitie genoemde taalkringen geldt toffe
jongen ter aanduiding van een brani-achtigen jongeman uit een bepaalde
maatschappelijke groep. || Een oploopje op straat ..., veel publiek uit
Zutphens achterbuurten, de toffe jongens van de Leugenbrug, MEINSMA, De
Zwarte Dood 127 [1924]. Een onsympathieke toffe jongen, een flinkdoenerige
kwast met zijn praatjes en zijn eeuwige whiskeyflesch, L. HUIZINGA, Tien gl.
wijn 14 [1942].
5) Bepaaldelijk van een meisje: mooi, knap. Barg. || Tof, goed, schoon, wel,
braaf; een t??ve geeze, een schoon meisje, MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 273 b
[Rotwelsch v. Brussel, 1897]. Een toffe meid, een knappe meid, DE VRIES
[1909]. ??? Anders 'n toffe mokkel .... Maar waas gibt d??s? .... Geen cent op
de wereld, HEIJERMANS, Sabbath 87 [1903].
Afl. ??? Tofferen, van de vergrootende trap toffer (eveneens door MOORMANN,
Bronnenb. 149 vermeld voor Zele). Beteren. || 't Za wel tofferen, 't Zal wel
beteren, MOORMANN, t. a. p. [Zele, 1840].
??? Toffig, goed. Opgegeven voor zndl. handelscentra als Kortrijk, Roeselare,
Aalst, Gent, Brussel, Antw. Zie MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 287.
Samenst. Misschien is tofferad, dat door VERWOERT [?? 1860] wordt opgegeven
als benaming voor ???drie gulden??? (bij MOORMANN, Bronnenb. 212), als zoodanig
te beschouwen; t. a. p. wordt nl. rad opgegeven als benaming voor ???daalder???

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/e6added7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 16:23:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:23:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.092359.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (05) [EN]

The German Wikipedia article on the topic ???tsch??s??? is quite informative:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsch??s<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsch%C3%BCs>
In simmary, it seems as if there might be connections towards both Spain and
Portugal (as Ron indicated) and to France, the latter possibly via Walloon
???adjuus???. The French original is more easily recognizable in the Rhineland
version ???tsch????? (from adieu), while the South German ???ad????? might indicate a
loan directly from Latin.

Greetings

Wolfram

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/77610517/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 15:57:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:57:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.085748.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (05) [EN]

The German Wikipedia article on the topic ???tsch??s??? is quite informative:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsch??s<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsch%C3%BCs>
In simmary, it seems as if there might be connections towards both Spain and
Portugal (as Ron indicated) and to France, the latter possibly via Walloon
???adjuus???. The French original is more easily recognizable in the Rhineland
version ???tsch????? (from adieu), while the South German ???ad????? might indicate a
loan directly from Latin.

Greetings

Wolfram

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/47f97d78/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 19:59:16 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:59:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.125916.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

I am not suggesting that we should automatically assume Slavic origin when
words and suffixes are unique to Germanic varieties used in formerly
Slavic-speaking regions. But the *-ink ~ -ing* of Mecklenburg has an
overridingly endearing quality like Slavic *-inka*, and it is used just like
it. Furthermore, its western boundary pretty much coincides with that of the
former western boundary of Slavic varieties.

Slavic -inka is a curious suffix. There is so much similarity (both
morphologically and semantically) with Germanic -in, used to make a noun
feminine plus the diminutive -ken; the combination then has an endearing
effect of course. Hard to believe there has never been any mutual influence.
Radiation from West to East? Common root on a PIE-level?
Come to think of it...any idea whether Turkic "kara" and Russian ???????????? for
"black" could be related on an even higher level? Possible connection with
Lowlands: harder (fish living in the Atlantic...Mugil curema...German
??sche).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I'm collapsing "Etymology" and "Morphology" because they seem to be
converging.

Luc, I agree that it gets kind of "weird" when you look across language
group boundaries for morphological commonalities. Actually, I'm pretty sure
that in many such cases we are talking about connections on an Indo-European
level. For instance, there is the Iranian approximative-diminutive *-??a*,
borrowed into Turkic, sometimes as *-(i)n??a*, which seems suspiciously like
*-ka* and *-inka*.

And, yes, things often continue across family boundaries, both as far as
roots and affixes are concerned, and the personal pronouns in Indo-European,
Uralic and Altaic start looking very much alike when you "boil them down."
No wonder people like Ilyich-Svitich postulated larger families. But for
decades isolationist researchers have been dismissing anything promising as
due to contacts, even within what to most people are definitely families
(such as Altaic). The thing is that such possible connections seem to go so
far back that proving them is pretty much impossible.

By the way, Luc, am I on the right track when I etymologize your last name
(Hellinckx) as Halle+ing+s(e)? That's where the "person of ..." suffix *-ing
* is that Paul mentioned. You still live in Halle (Belgium), don't you? No
wonder you tend to get cabin fever and feel the need to go on very long
"exotic" tours once in a while. ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/e9aeaec4/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 22:25:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:25:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JUN.2009.152504.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.07 (03) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

re Tsch??s

interestingly the OED ( my copy is old - 1966) does not include "Cheers" or
Cheerio"..... so maybe Ron's theory could fill the gap???!!!

Heather

----------

From: Marsha <marshatrue at mtangel.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.06 (01) [EN]
Thanks, you two!  That makes perfect sense, as there is also "scared the
stuffing out of me."  Pij wadding....yeah - I like it!
Marsha Wilson
Mt. Angel, Oregon

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Well, Heather, I wouldn't go as far as taking it to the OED as yet. ;-)

Marsha, actually it's *you* that deserves a fat gold star for bringing such
a juicy, truly Lowlandic morsel to the table. It was delicious. I'm sure our
Jacqueline would agree. You made the Kahuna smile.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090607/8b2a4111/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 15:52:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:52:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2009.06.08 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.085227.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2009.06.04 (04) [EN]

Hi Ron,

Thank you very much for your advice. The font I use is SilManuscripIPA (True
Type) Version Altsys Fontographer 4.08/18/93. I wil try the 2 pickers and
see where I get then. I'll let you know.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/0a26108b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 15:55:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:55:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (02) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.085547.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (03) [NL]

Hallo Roland,

Bedankt voor de reactie. Ik was ermee bekend (ik heb namelijk een paar
West-Vlaamse vrienden) dat het West-Vlaams ook gespaard is van die
vreselijke 'de-vormen' en dat de je-vormen tot de gewone spreektaal behoren

Vriendelijke groeten,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (08) [EN]

Hi Diederik,

Thanks for giving your view on this issue. Of course, I had expected
dissenting opinions. I simply gave my personal preference and I have no
problem with people seeing things differently. I know that a form like '
zegde' is the exact counterpart of Middle Dutch 'seghdi '. Up to about 30
years ago 'ge, 'gij' were perfectly acceptable forms in Standard Dutch  ( in
its Southern variety). Nowadays these forms are somewhat discredited, though
most people use them. When I talk to friends in Diest I use them in my kind
of general Dutch (I don't venture to speak the local lingo, as I'm afraid I
would bungle it). There is a strong tendency these days  among politicians
to speak with 'je' (although for some mysterious reason 'jij' and 'jou' are
shunned)  especially when talking in front of a microphone or TV-camera.
Unfortunately quite a few stumble when they revert to 'u' as an object form.
I tend to think then: they had better stick to 'ge, gij' if they can't
consistently use 'je'. When I expressed my dislike of enclitic '-de', I was
mainly thinking of its use in Flemish TV-serials. They pretend to be
standard (?) Dutch, but in fact they are in some kind of preposterous
non-language (nep-Nederlands) . That is the sort of speech I said I
abhorred. You may like it, but I don't.
I did take exception at your claim (based on Weijnen's conviction that "the
far south-east of Vlaams-Brabant does not have the -de ending in the
2ndperson ".
This is pertinently incorrect as I know firsthand. I was born and raised in
Tienen, but my mother originated from Melkwezer, a small village in the
exact centre of  'Getelands', which is spoken in a region somewhat west of
the river Grote Gete to the  Kleine Gete (Diest is not in this region). I
know the language of this region. So I spoke Tiens and I learnt my mother's
dialect. You can take my word for it  when I say that ' contrary to what
Weijnen claims, the enclitic -de is used in all of this Getelands . In
allof Getelands but
not in Tienen and Hoegaarden (and perhaps in a few adjacent villages of
Tienen like Kumtich an Hakendover. For decades I haven't lived in Tienen,
but when I, rarely,   meet old friends from Tienen I speak Tiens.With
relatives from Melkwezer, whom I see more often, I speak their dialect. So
in these circumstances I use the enclitic -de myself. I think it is
self-evident to use it in dialect, but not in a form of speech that goes
beyond the local sphere.

Greetings,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/2aa7d4b3/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 15:57:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:57:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.08 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.085727.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.05 (09) [EN]

Marsha asked about ???peawadden.???

I come from Texas and have family roots in Tennessee, so most of what I have
to say regards English spoken in the southern USA.  I???ve always heard that
word pronounced as ???peawaddel??? with syllabic ???l??? instead of a syllabic ???n???.
This thread makes me wonder if I???ve misheard the word all these years.  I
don???t believe I have, but can anyone confirm that?

Mark Brooks

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/68b6da33/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 17:11:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:11:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.101128.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (06) [NL]

Hallo Luc,

In Tienen they say 'ne man, een vra:, e kind'. An so they do in all of
Getelands. I myself speak General Dutch (the Southern variety, with ge/ gij)
almost all the time. Only when I go to Tienen (which I rarely do nowadays)
will I speak Tiens with friends. I speak my mother's dialect (Melkwezers)
when see my relatives on my mother's side. I have no objection to the
northern variety of Dutch (Hollandish) and I have no problems whatsoever to
talk it. Some years ago I went on a threeweek journey with an all-Dutch
group and so I spoke like them. I don't make the usual (Flemish) mistakes of
mixing up 'je' with  'u' (object form), though I'm quite sure they wouldn't
object in the least to my using 'ge/gij'. But I do find it a bit odd to use
nothern Dutch in my own country.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (02) [EN-NL]

Roger:
the MAND-site is online again, so i checked it indeed :-) Tienen and
Goetsenhoven give forms zij chij and z?? chij, so indeed without -de but
without any -t at all. So I assume it's also ga chij/go chij instead of gaat
gij?
(source: www.meertens.knaw.nl/mand/database)
 And I don't like the TV soap language either, being mostly actors from
around Antwerp speaking way too proper Dutch with still a horrible
Antwerpian pronunciation (sounds like a contradiction, aye?) and indeed the
-de forms. Now I think I understand more your horror - I thought you had
something against people using -de in general. But what displeases me most
is the Hollandisms and 'try-to-talk-Dutch' of these series, it's indeed a
strange combination. Altho I think they should keep the -de, but also talk
way more dialect, haha. But at least they don't use jij and jou, for me
indeed still words I can't get out of my mouth (except when I'm in Holland
of course:-))
Greets, Diederik

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/c38040c5/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 17:07:34 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:07:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.08 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.100734.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.06 (04) [EN]

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org <mailto:list at marcusbuck.org>>

> But in this case it is not necessary to blame German influence. Some
> dialects have lengthened the vowel to 'komen' (and subsequently 'kamen'),
> but many others have kept the older unlengthened form 'kommen'. I think,
> there's a Wenker map for that, but the DIWA website is inaccessible at the
> moment. So 'k??mming' could just as well be "real" Low Saxon.
>

There's no Wenker map for 'kamen' directly, but for the PPP (<
http://diwa.info/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=312>), which should basically be the same
as the infinitive. And it seems I was wrong. I guess, I confused it with the
rather diverse lengthening distribution patterns of 'k??nnt'/'k????nt' (or will
'kaamt' show similar diverse patterns?). At least the PPP is lengthened to
'kamen' in all of Mecklenburg. The only areas with non-lengthened forms are
some few places with aberrant forms in Mecklenburg and Vorpommern (and my
own dialect of "Stoder Geestplatt" which has 'kommen' too). But I'm not
sure, to which degree these findings apply to imperative and present tense
forms.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.06 (04) [EN]

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org <mailto:list at marcusbuck.org>>

> Is it a general rule, that the imperative derives from the root? I've seen
> many examples of forms both derived from the root and from the 2nd/3rd
> person form from all regions and many different times. Until now I wasn't
> able to find any system. Sadly none of the Wenker maps contains an
> imperative that helps in this question. I suspect that it could be a matter
> of dialect (although German influence plays a big role too. But perhaps not
> the only role).
>
The Wenker atlas has four maps about imperative forms: 'geh', 'tu', 'sag'
and 'bleib'. 'sag' doesn't help us at all, cause the first and second person
forms have the same stem in both German and Low Saxon ('ich sag' - 'du
sagst' in German, 'ik segg' - 'du seggst' in Low Saxon). 'geh', 'tu' and
'bleib' are a bit more useful. Although they have the same stem in German
('ich gehe' - 'du gehst', 'ich tue' - 'du tust', 'ich bleibe' - 'du
bleibst'), they differ in Low Saxon ('ik gah' - 'du geihst', 'ik do' - 'du
deist', 'ik bliev' - 'du bliffst'). This difference is present in all Low
Saxon dialects, so we can draw some conclusions from that. _All_ dialects
show the imperative forms 'do', 'gah' and 'bliev' (or the respective
dialectal variants of it) and none show imperative forms like 'dei', 'geih'
or 'bliff'. So my question above "Is it a general rule, that the imperative
derives from the root?" can be answered: Yes, without German interference
the imperative always takes the forms from the infinitive. The problem is
now, that Wenker does not tell us, wht happens _with_ German interference.
Are there any dialects, that generally follow the German rule, if the German
forms differ? Or does German interference only occur spontaneously (but at a
high rate)?

Marcus Buck

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Hi, Marcus!

Congratulations and thanks for that splendid piece of research at short
notice!

I am pretty sure that there *are* dialects out there in which the
straightforward imperative system has been disrupted by German interference.
I suspect that they exist not only at the periphery, near the boundary with
Central German, but also in the vicinity of large cities. In fact, I think
that this particular type of interference is relatively old, going back at
least to the 19th century. Not only do you get *kumm!* (for *kaam!*) in the
song *Dat du mien Leevsten b??st* but also in the works of Klaus Groth
(1819???1899), a native of Dithmarschen, an area close to Hamburg.

Now that we seem to have established what the original imperative system is
I need to add a piece of information that sort of "mildly contradicts" my
own initial, *simplified* description.

"The (familiar) second person singular imperative is identical with the verb
root" is accurate in dialects that have lost final *-e* or the "drawl tone"
(*Sleeptoon*), also known as "superlength" (*??verl??ngd*). (As some
Lowlanders may remember, in some varieties "deleted" final *-e* causes the
preceding long vowel or diphthong to receive additional length and a final
voiced stop or fricative does not undergo final devoicing; e.g.
*Huus*[hu??s] 'house',
*H**??**se > **H**??**??s'* [hy????z] 'houses', *Bruud* [bru??t] 'bride', *Br**??**de
> **Br**??**??d'* [bry????(d)] 'brides'.)

Where phonological conditions are right, this plays a role in the (familiar)
second person singular imperative in varieties with *-e* or drawl tone. In
other words, in one form or another these varieties preserve the old
imperative *-e*. In yet other words, the (familiar) second person singular
imperative consists of the verb root plus *-e*, but the *-e* is dropped
where the root ends with a vowel (e.g. *ga!* 'go!') and the drawl tone does
not apply either if there is no voiced final consonant (as in
*laat!*'let!'). (This system is similar to the base German system;
e.g.
*gehe!* 'go!', *sitze!* 'sit!'. I suspect the Dutch system went through a
similar process of *-e* loss in the imperative.)

For instance, in one of Groth's works (*Min Modersprak*) you find the phrase
*Nu be!* 'Now pray!' *Be!* comes from *bede!* which became *beed'* (with
drawl tone) and, as in some other varieties, the *-d* comes to be deleted in
drawl tone situations (as also in Dutch, e.g. *lui* 'people', cf. Low Saxon
*L**??**de > **L**??**??d'* [ly????d] ~ *L**??** *[ly??]).

So, while the initially described imperative system still stands in numerous
dialects, the original system, preserved in some dialects, has a final *-e*.
(I don't want to call it "schwa" because none of the varieties I am familiar
with pronounces it as a schwa.)

What you can say in the way of a rule in these varieties is that the
familiar imperative is the same as the first person present tense form,
since it, too, has a *-e* or drawl tone; e.g. *ik bede ~ **ok beed' ~
ik be*'I pray' (as in German; e.g.
*ich bet**e**, ich geh**e**, ich sitz**e*).

This old *-e* is preserved medially everywhere in second and third person
present tense verbs whose roots end with a vowel; e.g.

Root: ga- 'go'
du ga-e-st > gaist (written *geihst*)
he ga-e-t > gait (written *geiht*)

This system seems to reveal a fossilized vowel alternation:

Root: dou- 'do' (Old Saxon *d??*)
du *d??-e-st > *da-e-st > gaist (written *deist*)
he *d??-e-t > *da-e-t > dait (written *deit*)

Theoretically, we should have forms like **doist* and **doit* here.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/b607b5c2/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 18:19:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:19:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.111932.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.08 (04) [EN]

And Roger, ne man, een vraa, e kind with 3 different articles for each
gender exists in every Brabantish dialect, although feminine and neuter are
starting to fall together into 'een' with most younger people.
This three-way declension of articles usualyl also exists in Brabant for
adjectives in long vowel or diphthong + n,
ne kleine man, een klein vrou, e klei kind, ne scho??nen otto, een scho??n
vrou, e scho?? vogelke/tje. Also here the neuter forms seem to add the +n of
the stem and feminine form again in younger dialect.
Diederik

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/226063bd/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 21:08:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:08:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.08 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.140800.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.08 (03) [EN]

Mark, Ron, Marsha Re Peawadden (again). I all of a sudden remembered too
that Dutch ???*watten*??? is cotton wool. Hence ???een kind in de watten leggen??? =
to spoil a child.

Also I think that English ???*wad*???as in a wad of money or tobacco must be
related. But now I am asking myself whether the Dutch word ???*wad*??? which
means a dry place to *wade* through the river and ???*wadden*??? as places that
are located on the outside of the dyke, but which fall dry at low tide,
hence ???Waddenzee???, have any relationship to English ???wad???? Add to this that
Dutch ???*wadden*??? also can mean the mist that rises from the marshes and that
in English mist is often described as ???pea soup???. We need an etymologist
here!!!

Groetjes, Jacqueline

Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/9a8834a8/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 21:17:29 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:17:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.08 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.141729.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Contacts

 I think the link below is interesting for Continental-Europe - US
immigration history,
Regards,
Roger
Forwarded: .... For your info:
please have a look at the website of the American Friends of the Red Star
Line
www.redstarlinefriends.org
this very recent non-for profit based in Philadelphia is supported by the
Van Mieghem Foundation.
The war drawing by Van Mieghem (see our previous E-mail) auctioned recently
in Antwerp went
to a private collector for 11.685 euros or ca. 16.000 USD
rgds, Erwin Joos, curator, Van Mieghem Museum

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/bcea0c0d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  8 21:20:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:20:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (09) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.8.JUN.2009.142004.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (06) [EN]

> From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.08 (04) [EN]
> And Roger, ne man, een vraa, e kind with 3 different articles for each
gender exists in every Brabantish dialect, although feminine and neuter are
starting to fall together into 'een' with most younger people.
> This three-way declension of articles usualyl also exists in Brabant for
adjectives in long vowel or diphthong + n,
ne kleine man, een klein vrou, e klei kind, ne scho??nen otto, een scho??n
vrou, e scho?? vogelke/tje. Also here the neuter forms seem to add the +n of
the stem and feminine form again in younger dialect.
Does anyone have an idea why *brother* behaves *neuter:*

In my West-Limburgish (Vliermaal)

enne man
enne hond
enne platte keis

e(i)n vrouw
e(i)n kat
e(i)n toffel
e(i)n vinster
e(i)n dauchter,

ee keind, ee kinsje
ee v??gelke, ee(n) appelke
ee(n) h??ske
*ee bruur, mee bruur* (a brother, my brother)

PS. I remember on the 4th class primary at the college of Tongeren (+- age
10 years) we had to use our (Tongerlandish) dialect forms for knowing the
gender in French:
main vinster, ma fen??tre
There were a few traps: main bootter (fem), le beurre (masc.)
We were also thought to reflect on the French form for deciding between ei
and ij in Dutch.
Le train -> de trein andt not de trijn.
I didn't check whether it is always correct. For me it was at least an
incentive to extend my language portefolio with rapidly absorbing a second
Limburgish variant (Tongerlandish). My first was Lonerlandish from
Vliermaal.
Contrary to the remainder of Belgian Limburg, Tongeren did never belong to
the County of Loon, but it was a direct dependency from the principality of
Li??ge. It was reputedly also germanized later than core-Limburg.

Regards,
Roger

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090608/a3d61305/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 14:13:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:13:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.09 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUN.2009.071353.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.08 (04) [EN]

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org <mailto:list at marcusbuck.org>>

> The Wenker atlas has four maps about imperative forms: 'geh', 'tu', 'sag'
> and 'bleib'. 'sag' doesn't help us at all, cause the first and second person
> forms have the same stem in both German and Low Saxon ('ich sag' - 'du
> sagst' in German, 'ik segg' - 'du seggst' in Low Saxon). 'geh', 'tu' and
> 'bleib' are a bit more useful. Although they have the same stem in German
> ('ich gehe' - 'du gehst', 'ich tue' - 'du tust', 'ich bleibe' - 'du
> bleibst'), they differ in Low Saxon ('ik gah' - 'du geihst', 'ik do' - 'du
> deist', 'ik bliev' - 'du bliffst'). This difference is present in all Low
> Saxon dialects, so we can draw some conclusions from that. _All_ dialects
> show the imperative forms 'do', 'gah' and 'bliev' (or the respective
> dialectal variants of it) and none show imperative forms like 'dei', 'geih'
> or 'bliff'. So my question above "Is it a general rule, that the imperative
> derives from the root?" can be answered: Yes, without German interference
> the imperative always takes the forms from the infinitive.
>

I made some further investigations in Germanic morphology and found out,
that all what I said was based on false presumptions ;-)
There's no paradigm "imperative follows infinitive/first person". "ich
fahre", "er f??hrt", imperative "fahre" shows, that German too doesn't apply
a rule like that. Actually the rules depend on the Ablaut classes for
Germanic verbs. Third person and imperative only coincide for the Ablaut
classes III.b. (Old High German: infinitive 'werfan', 1st person 'wirfu'
[1st person followed the same pattern as 2nd/3rd person in Old High German],
imperative 'wirf' = Modern German: infinitive 'werfen', 3rd person 'wirft',
imperative 'wirf'), IV. ('neman', 'nimu', 'nim' = 'nehmen', 'nimmt',
'nimm'), and V. ('geban', 'gibu', 'gib' = 'geben', 'gibt', 'gib').
At least according to <http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudsaksisch>
corresponding forms existed in Old Saxon. The article mentions infinitive
'helpan', 1st person 'hilpu', imperative 'hilp' [Ablaut class III.b.]).
Old Saxon short 'i' was sound-shifted to short 'e' in open syllables and in
front of 'r' and 'l' later, so 'nimu', 'gi??u', 'wirpu', and 'hilpu' would
all coincide with the infinitive after that sound shift. The 2nd and 3rd
persons were formed with an 'i' in it (e.g. 'hilpis', 'hilpid') and where
thus subject to Umlaut. So the 'i'->'e' sound shift didn't affect them and
they stay different until today. Imperative forms 'wirp' and 'hilp' would
have been subject to the 'i'->'e' sound shift too. But in closed syllables
'nim' and 'gi??' would lead to 'nimm' and 'giff'. They would only lead to
'nehm' and 'geev' if the syllables would have been open. It's not
impossible, that besides 'nim' and 'gi??' based on dialect (most of our
knowledge of Old Saxon is based on documents from the southern periphery and
we know few about the northern dialects) there where different forms (e.g.
'nima' and 'gi??a'), that would explain the modern forms of 'nehm' and
'geev'. Another explanation would be, that the singular imperative forms
were adjusted to the plural.
And in the end we are where we were right at the start: Most likely it's a
matter of dialect.

Marcus Buck

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090609/25459d4a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 18:22:58 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:22:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.09 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUN.2009.112258.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.08 (07) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Jacqueline wrote: Mark, Ron, Marsha Re Peawadden (again). I all of a sudden
remembered too that Dutch ???*watten*??? is cotton wool.

English too has 'wadding' meaning the stuffing used to pad out jackets or
quilts.

And we also have the phrase ' to knock the stuffing out of someone' (nasty!)

As well as 'wrapping someone up in cottton wool' ( with the same meaning as
"een kind in de watten leggen???

Interesting that the same images are used across languages. Do langauges
pick up metaphoric image and translate it into their own? Or do similar
images occur naturally in different languages? In the same way as two people
claiming the invention of something tho' living countries apart.

Heather

from Worcester UK

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090609/9d2eae24/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 21:52:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:52:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.09 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUN.2009.145204.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.09 (02) [EN]

Hi Heather: you remarked that the English ???wrapping someone up in cotton
wool??? conveys the exact same thing as the Dutch ???een kind in de watten
leggen??? There are hundreds of expressions that Dutch and English have in
common. I have been told that the transfer took place in the harbors along
the River Thames in the 16th and 17th century. It is the ones we did not
exchange that make translating idiomatic Dutch into idiomatic English and
vice versa so devilishly difficult. Enjoy your summer. Jacqueline

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090609/05c14f98/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 23:54:30 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:54:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.09 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUN.2009.165430.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: mehrfache Wortbedeutung

All wedder schriew ick an all' mien Fr??nn.

Manchmal gibt die plattdeutsche Sprache f??r den Hochdeutschen auch bei
scheinbar ganz einfachen, leichten W??rtern R??tsel auf, wie es *all*
eines ist. Oder wie verh??lt es sich mit der leichten Verst??ndlichkeit
folgenden Satzes: *De Plummen un de Backbeeren warden all' all all'? Plummen
*und *Backbeeren *m??gen sich nach den Lautgesetzen noch relativ leicht als
'Pflaumen' und 'Backbirnen', also 'ged??rrte Birnen' ??bersetzen lassen. Aber
was soll das dreifache *all, *bei dem das zweite gew??hnlich k??rzer als die
beiden andern gesprochen wird: *All' all all'?*
Wir begegnen hier der dreifachen Bedeutung eines Wortes. Das erste
*all' *bedeutet 'alle' wie im Hochdeutschen, das zweite 'schon', es hat
keine Lautentsprechung im Hochdeutschen, und das dritte bedeutet 'zu Ende',
'verbraucht', wie wir es auch in der nord- und mitteldeutschen
Umgangssprache kennen: 'Die Pflaumen sind alle', wir haben keine mehr. Hier
nun noch einmal der Satz:* De Plummen un de Backbeeren warden all' all all'.
*
Oder: *Min Geld is all' all all'. *- (Dat stimmt sogor...* Min Euro is nu
all all' all.)*

Literatur: J??rgen Grundlach *Von Aant bis Z??g'*
**
Beste Gr????e.
Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090609/2557986a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 10 17:35:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:35:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.10 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUN.2009.103522.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 10 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (06) [EN]

Hello Diederik,

I haven't noticed this trend of equalizing the neutre forms to the feminine
declension by adding -n in young people's speech..

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.05 (08) [EN]

Hi Diederik,

A couple of days ago I sent you a mail pertaining to the inversed verbal
forms 2nd person. One part went like this:

"I did take exception at your claim (based on Weijnen's conviction that "the
far south-east of Vlaams-Brabant does not have the -de ending in the
2ndperson and
I ". This is pertinently incorrect as I know firsthand. I was born and
raised in Tienen, but my mother originated from Melkwezer, a small village
in the exact centre of  'Getelands', which is spoken in a region somewhat
west of the river Grote Gete to the  Kleine Gete (Diest is not in this
region). I know the language of this region. So I spoke Tienslearnt my
mother's dialect. You can take my word for it  when I say that ' contrary to
what Weijnen claims, the enclitic -de is used in all of this Getelands . In
all of Getelands but not in Tienen and Hoegaarden (and perhaps in a few
adjacent villages of Tienen like Kumtich an Hakendover. For decades I
haven't lived in Tienen, but when I, rarely,   meet old friends from Tienen
I speak Tiens.With relatives from Melkwezer, whom I see more often, I speak
their dialect. So in these circumstances I use the enclitic -de myself. "

I'm sorry to say this description of the situation was not quite correct and
not complete. I was a bit distracted by what you pointed out on thesituation
in Brabantish. Let me put things right. Getelands is a very special case.
It's a transitional area between Barantish and Limburgish in which western
(Brabantish) and eastern elements vie with one another for supremacy.
Weijnen is partly right when he states that Getelands "does not have
the -deending in the 2
nd person". Indeed, we must distinguish between 2 inversed verbal forms in
Getelands (except in Tienen) :
a. the somewhat emphatic form gade gij, which is actually a mixed form:
'gade' being 2nd person singular combined with 'gij' which is in fact an
historical 2nd person plural pronoun. So there Weijnen got it wrong.
b. the weak form with -er, e.g. doeder 'doe je', /g??der/ 'ga je'. This -er
originated from *ir, German ihr, Old High German  ir, which is clearly
plural, and unmistakably an eastern element . In this cas Weijnen hit the
nail.

I'm sorry I got you on the wrong track.

 Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: missingsch

Hallo liebe Freunde!

Fritz Reuter. Ut mine Stromtid. Inspekter *Broesig *k??mmt ut de Waterkunst
(Kur) un belihrt Hawermann in Waterangelegenheiten.
Fritz Reuter gelang hier *missingsch *literarisch zu gestalten. (H.Hinz)

Literatur: J??rgen Gundlach *Von Aant bis Z??g'*
*Unkel Broesig*. Der Leser denkt dabei sofort an seine eigent??mliche
Sprechweise, an sein *Missingsch, *wie man dieses mit plattdeutschen Lauten
und W??rtern verquickte mangelhafte Hochdeutsch nennt. ??ber das Wort
*missingsch,
*das ??brigens zun??chst 'hochdeutsch im Gegensatz zur heimischen Mundart'
bedeutete, ist viel ger??tselt worden. Professor Hermann Teuchert, der
langj??hrige fr??here Herausgeber des Mecklenburgischen W??rterbuches, h??lt es
f??r erwiesen, da?? *mi??ensch, missensch *'mei??nisch' zu Grunde liegt, also
die ostdeutsche Benennung der hochdeutschen Literatursprache, wobei ein
zweites Wort *missingsch *'aus Messing' hineinspielte, welches ein
Mischmetall ist, wie das gesorpchene *Missingsch*  eine Mischsprache.

Kurt Tucholsky. Missingsch und Plattdeutsch.
Missingsch ist das, was herauskommt, wenn ein Plattdeutscher hochdeutsch
sprechen will. Er krabbelt auf der glatt gebohnerten Treppe der deutschen
Grammatik empor und rutscht alle Nase lang wieder in sein geliebtes Platt
zur??ck.
Aus 'Mecklenburg *Ein G??stebuch*'
Herausgegeben von Ulrich Bentzien Hinstorff Verlag Rostock 1980
Anmerkung: Prof. Dr. Ulrich Bentzien 19.12.1987 verstorben. Die menschliche
W??rme, die in Wort und Schrift von diesem Mann ausging, bleibt allen denen
unvergessen, die ihm begegnet sind.(Wir kannten uns.)

Broesig: "...aber gut is sie doch: der Mensch kriegt en ganzen andern
Glauben.... und hier, Korl (Hagemann) hab ich dir auch ein Wasserbuch
mitgebracht, da kannst du dir's Winterabends in den Wissenschaften mit
belernen."

Von mir die besten Gr????e.
Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090610/9313c23e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 10 20:16:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:16:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.10 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUN.2009.131638.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 10 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Dat L??uschen

Liebe Freunde,
wat ick jug nu vertell is kein M??rken.

1853 ver??ffentlichte Fritz Reuter (Selbstverlag in Treptow an der Tollense)
sein Buch unter dem Titel *L??uschen un Riemels.*
Dieses Buch war der Beginn der niederdeutschen Klassik in Mecklenburg.
*L??uschen
*bedeutet so viel wie 'M??rchen', 'Erz??hlung', ,fabelhafte Erz??hlung'. Reuter
hat seine *L??uschen *gereimt, nicht so John Brinckman, der seiner Erz??hlung
*H??ger up *den Untertitel gibt *Dat Leuschen von den H??kt un den Vo??. *Das
Wort ist aber auch au??erliterarisch bekannt.
Von einer Frau wurde Richard Wossidlo in Wredenhagen berichtet, *dat se so
sch??n L??uschen vertellen k??nn.* Das Wort *L??uschen *ist der Form nach ein
Verkleinerungswort, ein Diminutiv, und es geht zur??ck auf ein
mittelniederdeutsches  *leise, loise, *welches soviel wie 'geistliches
Lied', 'Kirchengesang', dann ??berhaupt 'Gesang', auch weltlicher Art,
bedeutete. Die Entwicklung geht also von *loise *??ber *loiseken *zu *
L??uschen.*
Literatur: J??rgen Gundlach (gek??rzt) *Von Aant bis Z??g'*
**
Meine Anmerkung: Niederdeutsche Autoren bevorzugen in ihrer 'Anf??ngerzeit'
das L??uschen. Das gereimte L??uschen wird wie eine Ballade angelegt. Es wird
in reimender Erz??hlform eine heitere Geschichte mit Situationskomik, oft zu
langatmig und mit  bedeutungslosen Nebenhandlungen und Klamauk und
F??llw??rter zu aufgesetzt, erz??hlt. Mitunter lebt dieses L??uschen mehr vom
'humpelnden' gewollten Reimzwang als von der poetischen Idee, die in der
Bewegung des Gedichtes liegen mu??. Ein L??uschen mu??/sollte immer mit einer
(heiteren) Pointe enden, weil es dann eben ein 'L??uschen' ist.  Und
eigentlich sind die meisten Anf??nger auf diesem Niveau stehen geblieben, und
das, bei dem Reichtum unserer Sprache.
Gerda Uhthoff,  2.8.1896 - 21.10.1988 Schwerin (sie beobachtete meine
k??nstlerische Entwicklung) schrieb folgendes Gedicht:

DE PLATTD????TSCH SPRAK

M??nnig denkt, uns' hochd????tsch Br??gen
k??nn mit Platt sik nich verdr??gen,
aewer anners liggt de Saak:
Nix is rieker as uns' Spraak,
un sei bruukt in't heile L??wen
sik v??r't Hochd????tsch nich tau g??wen.

Aus "LEIW' PLATTD????TSCH" Niederdeutsche Lyrik der Gegenwart
Herausgegeben vom Stadtarchiv Schwerin durch Hans Heinrich Leopoldi
Schwerin 1964

Nun lauschet L??uschen
und ich verkrieche mich
mit besten Gr????en.

Hanne                                           (PS: m??gliche von mir
??bersehene Tippfehler verzeihen. Re. Auge z.Z. Katarakt. Man, dis' griese
Vagel kann nich

piepen.)

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090610/707de2cf/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 10 22:02:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:02:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.10 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUN.2009.150220.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 10 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.10 (01) [DE-NDS]

Roger: Ha! now you got me even more confused;-) so you mean there are no -de
endings, but instead you have -der for unaccented, and instead of -degij
just -t gij when more emphasised?
And about fem./neut., maybe not in your parts of Brabant, but it still
surprises me that young speakers of dialect distinguish between say 'gin
vrouw' and 'gi geld', 'e scho?? kind' and 'een scho??n vrouw'... the masuline
forms with nen, ne scho??nen etc seem to stand pretty strong even in
Verkavelingsvlaams, but here around Antwerp and even in de Kempen the neuter
article 'e' seems to be in use only with older speakers anymore. I am one of
the few young who I know still uses this declension system pretty
regularly:-) but of course i am happy to hear it's stillmore alive your
parts!

Diederik

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090610/faeed7dd/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 11 16:12:58 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:12:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.091258.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.10 (03) [EN]

Hello Diederik,

You wrote:" Roger: Ha! now you got me even more confused;-) so you mean
there are no -de endings, but instead you have -der for unaccented, and
instead of -degij just -t gij when more emphasised? "

I' sorry if I got you confused. Allow me to reiterate my statement in a
slightly different form, hoping it will be clearer this way.

we must distinguish between 2 inversed verbal forms in Getelands (except in
Tienen) :
a. the somewhat emphatic form *gade gij*, which is actually a mixed form:
'gade' being 2nd person singular combined with 'gij' which is in fact an
historical 2nd person plural pronoun. So there Weijnen got it wrong.
b. the weak form with -er, e.g. *doeder *'doe je', */g??der/ *'ga je'. This
-er originated from *ir, German *ihr*, Old High German  *ir*, which is
clearly plural, and unmistakably an eastern element . In this cas Weijnen
hit the nail.

Gade is the inversed 2nd person form of 'gaan', consisting of the stem of
the verb ga + de. This form is not used as such in Melkwezers and, I guess,
anywhere else in the Geteland. We encounter the forms with -de in the more
emphatic form where it is  followed by the pronoun gij. Another example: komde
gij "kom jij?" As you can see it is a tautologocal construction.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/a96be259/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 11 16:34:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:34:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2009.06.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.093446.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technica

Hi, Lowlanders!

A visitor to our Anniversary site (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
informed me that she can not download the Scottish Gaelic translation (
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/gaidhlig.php), that it always defaults to
the help page. She can not access the MP3 sound files either.

In the meantime I have tried to recreate her problem. I tried various
computers at various places and with various Internet connections, including
using Safari on Macs, since this is what she uses. It's all to no avail.
Everything works just fine at my end.

She and I suspect that her problems has something to do with the firewall at
her institution in Scotland, Sabhal M??r Ostaig, Colaiste Gh??idhlig na
h-Alba, on the Isle of Skye (An t-Eilean Sgitheanach). I somewhat suspect
that something is not set correctly in her browser (Safari) as well.

Questions:

   - Does any of you have or used to have similar problems?
   - If you used to have such problems, how did you solve them?
   - Can any of you who knows or strongly suspects what needs to be done
   write up brief instructions and/or suggestions? We could post these as a
   part of all our on-line presentations.

The obvious aim is to make our presentations as accessible as possible
anywhere in the world.

Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/d93816a6/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 11 16:38:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:38:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.11 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.093800.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.08 (09) [EN]

Ah, so gadegij vs gader, guess i get it now. And to answer one of your
earlier posts, also here family member words have neuter articles, or
feminine (not sure, cfr. the discussion about merger of neuter and feminine
in younger Antwerpian), een bruur, e vader/een vader? Ou vader, ou bruur, me
vader (m'n vader?), m'n bruur, *never *ne vader, ouwen bruur, m'ne vader.
This is true for all Brabant varieties, not sure how they behave in the rest
of southern Dutch. In Antwerp, with plural possessive pronoun, 'bruur' can
have both, tho: hunnen bruur/hun bruur, onz(en) bruur.
But somehow never onze vader, hunne vader (?)

Diederik

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/ce8c960d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 11 19:55:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:55:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.11 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.125533.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de> Subject: Aussprache Mecklenburg

Liebe Freunde,
hier kann nachgeholfen werden...

Die Frage nach der richtigen Aussprache des Wortes Mecklenburg
bewegt immer wieder die Gem??ter. Deshalb soll hier von *M??kelborg,* so die
plattdeutsche Form, und von *Meklenburg, *so, mit einem langen *e *also, die
richtige hochdeutsche Aussprache, die Rede sein.
An der Bahnstrecke Schwerin - Wismar, kurz vor Wismar, liegt zur linken Hand
Dorf Mecklenburg mit seinem noch heute eindrucksvollen
gro??en slawischen Burgwall. Das slawische Wort f??r diese Burg ist nicht mehr
bekannt, die Deutschen nannten sie einfach 'gro??e Burg', welches im
Altniederdeutschen als *Mikilinburg, Mekelenborgh, Meklenborgh* erscheint
und schlie??lich zu unserer plattdeutschen Form
*M??kelborg* f??hrte. Die Reihe stellt einen v??llig gesetzm????igen Lautwandel
vom kurzen *i zum ?? *dar.
Entsprechend *Meklenborch *lautet die hochdeutsche Aussprache
*Meklenburg. *Bei Namen ist es h??ufig so, da?? die Schreibung f??r die
Aussprache nicht ma??gebend ist. Die irref??hrende Schreibung mit *ck*
setzte sich im 16. Jahrhundert durch. Damals war es Mode, m??glichst viele
Konsonanten in die W??rter zu bringen, man schrieb beispielsweise *laufen *mit
doppeltem *f *und doppeltem *n. *Diese Untugend wurde sp??ter wieder
beseitigt, blieb jedoch in Namen vielfach erhalten, so auch trotz mehrfacher
nur zeitweilig erfolgreicher Versuche, das *ck *zu beseitigen, in
Mecklenburg.* Wer also Bescheid weit, de seggt to M??kelborg, wenn hei
hochd????tsch snackt, Meklenburg. *
Literatur: J??rgen Grundlach *Von Aant bis Z??g'*

Anmerkung: Der Meklenburger legt gro??en Wert auf diese Bezeichnung, und wer
sie so nennt, hat schon fast den  Meklenburger als Freund gefunden. H. Hinz

Best' Gr??uten ut M??kelborg.

Hanne
eine Meklenburgerin

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/5c2abd94/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 00:04:23 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:04:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.11 (05) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.170423.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Hannelore,

You wrote:

Die Frage nach der richtigen Aussprache des Wortes Mecklenburg
bewegt immer wieder die Gem?????ter. Deshalb soll hier von *M?????kelborg,* so die
plattdeutsche Form, und von *Meklenburg, *so, mit einem langen *e *also, die
richtige hochdeutsche Aussprache, die Rede sein.
An der Bahnstrecke Schwerin - Wismar, kurz vor Wismar, liegt zur linken Hand
Dorf Mecklenburg mit seinem noch heute eindrucksvollen
gro?????en slawischen Burgwall. Das slawische Wort f?????r diese Burg ist nicht
mehr bekannt, die Deutschen nannten sie einfach 'gro?????e Burg', welches im
Altniederdeutschen als *Mikilinburg, Mekelenborgh, Meklenborgh* erscheint
und schlie?????lich zu unserer plattdeutschen Form
*M?????kelborg* f?????hrte. Die Reihe stellt einen v??????llig gesetzm??????????igen
Lautwandel vom kurzen *i?????zum?????????? *dar.
Entsprechend *Meklenborch *lautet die hochdeutsche Aussprache
*Meklenburg. *Bei Namen ist es h?????ufig so, da????? die Schreibung f?????r die
Aussprache nicht ma?????gebend ist. Die irref?????hrende Schreibung mit *ck*
setzte sich im 16. Jahrhundert durch. Damals war es Mode, m??????glichst viele
Konsonanten in die W??????rter zu bringen, man schrieb beispielsweise *laufen *mit
doppeltem *f?????*und doppeltem?????*n. *Diese Untugend wurde sp?????ter wieder
beseitigt, blieb jedoch in Namen vielfach erhalten, so auch trotz mehrfacher
nur zeitweilig erfolgreicher Versuche, das *ck *zu beseitigen,?????in
Mecklenburg.* Wer also Bescheid weit, de seggt to M?????kelborg, wenn hei
hochd??????????tsch snackt, Meklenburg. *
Literatur: J?????rgen Grundlach *Von Aant bis Z?????g'*
?????
Anmerkung: Der Meklenburger legt gro?????en Wert auf diese Bezeichnung, und wer
sie so nennt, hat schon?????fast den????? Meklenburger als Freund gefunden. H.
Hinz


Formally speaking, modern English could have evolved to "Mickle-burgh" or
"Much-borough" for your region. Comparative and superlative of "mickle" are
"more" and "most". Compare Hessian "Michelstadt" and the opposite of
"Mecklenburg": Luxembourg/L??tzeb??rg (small town).
Kiliaan attested "Mechelburg" in 1599 for Brabantish, and in Latin it would
sound like "Megaloburgum/Megalopolis" in those days.

Am actually wondering if the -ch- in "Mechelburg" should really be seen as a
High German adaptation. Maybe -k-/-ck- is a case of hypercorrection, dunno.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Luc,

Old Saxon has *mikil* for 'big', 'large', 'great'. I assume it's pronounced
like "mickil". It's the same in Old Low Frankish. Old German has
*mihhil*which would have to become *
*michel* or **mechel*.

The old name (recorded in 995) is indeed *Mikilinburg*. A referred to the
fortress built there. The Middle Saxon name is *Mekelenborch.*

In Lower Saxony, just south of Hamburg, there is a town called Meckelfeld. I
assume this is derived from **Mikilfeld*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/5bcb8974/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 00:12:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:12:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.11 (06) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.11.JUN.2009.171235.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (01) [NDS, EN]

Am 08.06.2009 um 19:07 schrieb Reinhard/Ron:

> Theoretically, we should have forms like *doist and *doit here.
>

Hey, Reinhard, Marcus & al,

j??st sau is dat recht ... un in'n Westf????lsken in't geheyl auk praktisk. Wi
maaket't wual meystig sau, as dat theoretisk mot ;-).

Marcus Book schraif:

> Old Saxon short 'i' was sound-shifted to short 'e' in open syllables and in
> front of 'r' and 'l' later, so 'nimu', 'gi??u', 'wirpu', and 'hilpu' would
> all coincide with the infinitive after that sound shift. The 2nd and 3rd
> persons were formed with an 'i' in it (e.g. 'hilpis', 'hilpid') and where
> thus subject to Umlaut. So the 'i'->'e' sound shift didn't affect them and
> they stay different until today. Imperative forms 'wirp' and 'hilp' would
> have been subject to the 'i'->'e' sound shift too. But in closed syllables
> 'nim' and 'gi??' would lead to 'nimm' and 'giff'.
>

J??st sau is dat. Auk d??ssen afsluutenden befund van Marcus hadden uuse
antkevaars al intuitiv befolget.

Jau un wat de uutgankspunkt was, imperativ "kumm!" of nich, daarto is mi
infallen, dat dat de westf????lske bri??kenge ??uo?? in'n infinitiv "kuomen" en
kort-diphthong is, van aultsassisk ??queman > koman > kuman??. Dar??mme heyt
dat je auk "he k??mt" un pr??terit. "ik k(w)am(m)" (man pr??sens "ik
kuome/quome"). Dar??mme haule ik en imperativ-variante "kum(m)!" nich for
alsto f????ren van "kuom(m)! < quom(m)!".

Man dat is mehr uut den hallen/hollen buuk spruoken, w??rkelk weyt ik ????wer
desse gesetmautigheyden na nich noug bescheyd, auk wan ik nu j??st bi der
jaaresdagunge van dem "Verein f??r niederdeutsche Sprachforschung" wi??sen
bin.

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??g => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Ja, ja, leyve Jochen. Daar hest d' wul recht.

In 't Middelsassische was 't noch "ik kwam" (ik quam) voer "ik keym", u.s.w.

Dat verklaart den je ook dat huydige "k??mt" u.s.w., as du 't al schreevst.

Gr??tens in 't Huus!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090611/8ba726bd/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 18:56:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:56:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.115646.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.11 (05) [DE-EN-NDS]

Hi all,

And in Pretoria, opposite the UNISA campus, there is a hill called
Muckleneuk.

(Btw, Tswane is the name of the metropolitan council rather than the name of
the city. A current court case is charging the SABC, the public broadcaster,
for misrepresenting the truth in its news broadcasts.)

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Elsie.

Muckleneuk seems to be pure Scots: *muckle* 'large', *neuk* 1. 'nook', 2.
'projecting point of land'

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/fe497f02/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 18:59:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:59:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.115933.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.11 (06) [NDS]

 Beste Ron,

Du schreyvst:

In 't Middelsassische was 't noch "ik kwam" (ik quam) voer "ik keym", u.s.w.

In the (whole?) area of Eastern Friesland "ick kweym" ("I came") still is in
daily use, and even in our region you might hear it now and then - perhaps
as a result of the historical western, i.e. Frisian and Dutch influence.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/877a0db1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 19:18:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:18:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.121846.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  HanneHinz at t-online.de
Subject: Ein japanischer Reuter-Forscher Professor Dr. phil. Kakuji
               Watanabe

FRITZ REUTER
IST MEIN LEITSTERN
DES LEBENS

KAKUJI WATANABE

Die Beziehungen des Stadtarchivs Schwerin u.a. mit der Reuterforschung und
der Niederdeutschen Literatur weiteten sich im Jahre 1956 bis nach Japan
aus, als Hans Heinrich Leopoldi (Stadtarchivar) den  japanischen
Reuter-Forscher Professor Dr. phil. Kakuji Watanabe, der sich auf einer
Reise in Nordwestdeutschland befand, zu einem Besuch der Reuter-St??tten nach
Mecklenburg einladen konnte.
Leider mu??te der japanische Gelehrte damals aus Zeitmangel absagen.
"Ihre Freundlichkeit hat mich so sehr gefreut, da?? ich Ihren Brief und Visa
noch bei mir aufbewahre", schrieb Prof. Dr. Watanabe an Leopoldi
noch im Mai 1959.
Und wenige Monate sp??ter brachte die Post ein 200 Seiten starkes Buch, auf
dessen Titelseite auf gr??nem Leinen goldene japanische Schriftzeichen
prangen, die man nicht entziffern kann. "Inf??hrung in't Plattd????tsch" - und
das auf Japanisch f??r Japaner!
Zum 150. Geburtstag des Dichters hat Prof. Dr. Watanabe das Manuskript einer
Arbeit "??ber Fritz Reuters Dichtungen" nach Deutschland geschickt und sein
Einverst??ndnis mit der Herausgabe in der Ver??ffentlichungsreihe des
Stadtarchives Schwerin erkl??rt.
Hans O.E. Gronau-Bremen und Hans Heinrich Leopoldi, zwei Briefpartner Prof.
Dr. Watanabes, haben es unternommen, eine "Einf??hrung"  in das Leben und
Schaffen des Gelehrten zu geben.
Ihre mehrj??hrige Zusammenarbeit stellt auch in diesem Falle wieder unter
Beweis, da?? die plattdeutsche Sprache sehr wohl zu einem verbindenden und
vermittelnden Element zwischen den Niederdeutschen aus Ost und West werden
kann. (12. Juli 1960)

Was aber hatte Watanabe zu Fritz Reuter gef??hrt und zur plattdeutschen
Sprache? Lassen wir ihn dazu in unserem Briefwechsel selbst zu Worte kommen:
"... Ich wollte schon als junger Lehrer des Deutschen das Wesen des
deutschen Volkes erfassen. Mir schien es der k??rzeste Weg zu sein,
irgendeine Mundart kennenzulernen und die Romane eines volkst??mlichen
Dichters durchzulesen. . . Aber was hat mich gerade zu Plattdeutsch gef??hrt?
Gibt es denn irgendeinen Zusammenhang zwischen Plattdeutsch und Japanisch?
Gar nichts, wie das Letztere  mit dem Hochdeutschen in keinem Zusammenhang
steht.
Was mich zur Forschung der niederdeutschen Sprache f??hrte, war keine
sprachliche Beziehung, sondern vielmehr die Pers??nlichkeit des Dichters
Fritz Reuter, dessen tr??bes Schicksal und lobenswerte Festigkeit, sich aus
hilfloser Drangsal als Dichter durchzuschlagen, mich zuerst anzog."
Fritz Reuter 1. (Essay) 1954 Universit??tszeitschrift
Fritz Reuter 2. (Essay) 1955 Universit??tszeitschrift
??ber Fritz Reuter (Essay) 1955 Deutsche Literatur
Gro??e Deutsche Grammatik 1956 Sanshusha-Verlag
Inf??hrung in't Plattd????tsch 1959 Daigakushorin-Verlag
Mecklenburgisch - Fritz Reuters Grammatik (noch nicht
ver??ffentlicht)Sanshusha-Verlag
Fritz Reuters Leben und Werke (1200 Druckseiten) Selbstverlag
Fritz Reuters Dichtungen (etwas 40 Druckseiten)  1960

Literatur: *??BER FRITZ REUTERS DICHTUNGEN* *   *(BAND 7)
                   VON PROF: DR: KAKUJI  WATANABE
                   HERAUSGEGEBEN VOM STADTARCHIV SCHWERIN 1960
              HERAUSGEBER: HANS HEINRICH LEOPOLDI  *
                   (11.12.1917 - 7.3.1978)

* Wissenschaftlicher Archivar Direktor des Stadtarchivs

H. H. Leopoldi wollte in einer neuen Folge der Ver??ffentlichungsreihe auch
mir die Gelegenheit geben, meine (kleinen) Werke an die ??ffentlichkeit zu
bringen. - Nach einem in Tapferkeit und W??rde getragenem Leiden  entschlief
dieser hoch geachtete Mensch.

Beste Gr????e.
Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Personalia

Thanks for this piece of news, Hanne.

For those of you who want to further investigate Kakuji Watanabe's work,
here are the characters of his name: ????????????

Among other things he published an introduction to Low Saxon ("Low German")
in Japanese:

*?????????????????????*
????????????
???????????? ???1985/07 ?????????
200p / 22cm / A5???
ISBN??? 9784475014755
NDC????????? 849.1
?????? (??????????????????)??????4,725 (??????)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle. USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/1affae0e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 19:19:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:19:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.12 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.121946.0700.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.11 (05) [DE-EN-NDS]

Hi all,

And in Pretoria,?? opposite the?? UNISA campus, there is a hill called
Muckleneuk.

(Btw,?? Tswane is the name of the metropolitan council rather than the name
of the city.?? A?? current court case is charging the?? SABC, the?? public
broadcaster, for?? misrepresenting the?? truth in its news broadcasts.)??

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Elsie.

Muckleneuk seems to be pure Scots: *muckle* 'large', *neuk* 1. 'nook', 2.
'projecting point of land'

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
???

==============================END===================================

* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/d0c9b85f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 21:38:05 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:38:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.12 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.143805.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (02) [EN]

Johnny: but in modern Westlauwer frisian it is kaam/k??m, hmm.
Greetings,
Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hey, Diederik!

Sure, and in Sater Frisian (the only surviving variety of East Frisian) it
is *koom*, in Fering (F??hr North Frisian) it's *kaam*, etc.

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/seeltersk.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/fering.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/frysk-info.php

But you seem to be assuming that *kweym* etc. in Eastern Friesland Low Saxon
is due to a Frisian substratum. It doesn't have to be. Apart from having
Frisian substrata, these Low Saxon varieties tend to be rather "archaic",
conservative within a purely Low Saxon context as well.

After the Saxon and Dutch political takeovers resulted in the loss of local
Frisian language varieties, East Frisians began to cling to their own
varieties of Low Saxon as one expression of their ethnic identity. Their
linguistic and cultural expressions of East Frisian identity aim at
distinguishing them from other speakers of Low Saxon. Linguistically, their
forms of Low Saxon have been serving as substitutes for lost Frisian ones.
But this is not to say that their distinction relies entirely on Frisian
substrata. Being used in Germany, lots of Dutch loanwords play another role,
going back to periods when Eastern Friesland was ruled or otherwise directly
influenced by the Netherlands.

According to my experiences, most East Frisians embrace their Frisian roots,
unlike most Low Saxon speakers of Groningen who live nextdoor to relatively
"powerful" communities of West (Westerlauwer) Frisian speakers from whom
their want to distinguish themselves. I am pretty sure that the average
speaker of East Frisian Low Saxon can not distinguish Low Saxon archaisms
(such as *kweym*) from forms that owe to Frisian substrata. Just as long as
it's different from Low Saxon outside their region! I've been told that the
Low Saxon translations of the Harry Potter series were pretty much rejected
in Eastern Friesland because they were written in a "foreign" dialect.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/868f1d56/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 21:41:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:41:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.12 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.144154.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (01) [EN]

Hi, Elsie, Ron & Co.

*Subject:* LL-L "Grammar"

As Elsie notes:
And in Pretoria, opposite the UNISA campus, there is a hill called
Muckleneuk.

& as Ron responded:
Muckleneuk seems to be pure Scots: *muckle* 'large', *neuk* 1. 'nook', 2.
'projecting point of land'

The namer knew his Scots & the local geography. The Eastrn head of the
southern pass into the central valley of Old Pretoria through
Fonteinedal makes a broad shoulder. Hereon some of the older of the most
recent developments of UNISA's buildings now straddle the same, a big corner
indeed. Well behind it behind it out of line of sight on the brow of the
hill is Klapperkop Fort, built to defend it from invading Khakis out of the
South. Her sister fortification is Schanskop Fort. Neither was ever used. by
the time the British passed it the Republicans had adopted guerilla
strategies. Both forts are now museums. On the other side of the valley
rather smaller, was another such feature named Bailly's Muckleneuk, never
fortified - subsequently suburbified. Scots had a high profile in republican
& pre-British South Africa.

Regards.
Mark

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/20ca361d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 22:03:18 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:03:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (06) [DE]
Message-ID: <FRI.12.JUN.2009.150318.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (03) [DE-EN]

Danke Reinhard,

gro??es Kompliment! Alle japanischen Schriftzeichen stimmen ??berein mit dem
ver??ffentlichten Titelblatt (BAND 7, Seite 24) des Watanabe'schen Werkes
"Inf??hrung in't Plattd????tsch". Ich hatte dieses Blatt vorher gescannt, aber
das sehr grobe Raster schlug durch. (Schlechte Papier- und Druckqualit??t.)
In BAND 7  ist auch Reuters Eikboomlied: plattdeutsch-japanisch (aus
Watanabe: Inf??hrung in't Plattd????tsch) ver??ffentlicht. (Auch hier leider
schlechte Druckqualit??t.)

Mien best' Gr??uten.
Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090612/5d09d6d9/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 13 19:07:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:07:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.120735.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.12 (05) [EN]

 And what about the town of Mechel(e)n in Belgium? The same root of the
name...?

Hartlich!

Marlou from Hamburg

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/74daf6b6/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 13 20:32:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:32:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.133224.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.12 (04) [EN]

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.12 (02) [EN]

Johnny: but in modern Westlauwer frisian it is kaam/k????m, hmm.
 Greetings,
Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hey, Diederik!

Sure, and in Sater Frisian (the only surviving variety of East Frisian) it
is *koom*, in Fering (F????hr??
North Frisian) it's *kaam*, etc.

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/seeltersk.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/fering.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/frysk-info.php

But you seem to be assuming that *kweym* etc. in Eastern Friesland Low Saxon
is due to a Frisian substratum. It doesn't have to be. Apart from having
Frisian substrata, these Low Saxon varieties tend to be rather "archaic",
conservative within a purely Low Saxon context as well

After the Saxon and Dutch political takeovers resulted in the loss of local
Frisian language varieties, East Frisians began to cling to their own
varieties of Low Saxon as one expression of their ethnic identity. Their
linguistic and cultural expressions of East Frisian identity aim at
distinguishing them from other speakers of Low Saxon. Linguistically, their
forms of Low Saxon have been serving as substitutes for lost Frisian ones.
But this is not to say that their distinction relies entirely on Frisian
substrata. Being used in Germany, lots of Dutch loanwords play another role,
going back to periods when Eastern Friesland was ruled or otherwise directly
influenced by the Netherlands.

According to my experiences, most East Frisians embrace their Frisian roots,
unlike most Low Saxon speakers of Groningen who live nextdoor to relatively
"powerful" communities of West (Westerlauwer) Frisian speakers from whom
their want to distinguish themselves. I am pretty sure that the average
speaker of East Frisian Low Saxon can not distinguish Low Saxon archaisms
(such as *kweym*) from forms that owe to Frisian substrata. Just as long as
it's different from Low Saxon outside their region! I've been told that the
Low Saxon translations of the Harry Potter series were pretty much rejected
in Eastern Friesland because they were written in a "foreign" dialect

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Hoi Diederik, Ron!
Let's not forget that in Old Frisian we do have forms like "quam" and
"quemen" (single and plural). So at the time the East Frisians shifted their
language, the 2- forms were still present, presumably, so they would have
supported the more conservative varieties of Low Saxon.

Regards,

Henno

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.12 (04) [EN]

De Ron dieje schreef:
 >But you seem to be assuming that *kweym* etc. in Eastern Friesland Low
Saxon is due to a Frisian substratum. It doesn't have to be. Apart
>from having Frisian substrata, these Low Saxon varieties tend to be rather
"archaic", conservative within a purely Low Saxon context as well.

I didn't, I was stating the exact opposite... the original post
(Johnny) thought the w in kweym came from Frisian, that's why I posted to
show at least Modern Frisian doesn't have any -w- there so it would be
unlikely to be Frisian influence.

And them being more archaic LS I can understand, like Belgians, when
adapting Standard Dutch, often (unconsciously) use words that are seen as
archaic in the North, and not necessarily because those words occur in our
dialects, but also other words. I suppose people taking over another
prestige language will always be more conservative in it and archaic?

Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ha, die Henno en Diederik!

Thanks for the bit of information, Henno, informative and thought-provoking
as usual, especially when it comes to Frisian.

En ongze Di??rik, dieje schreef:

I didn't, I was stating the exact opposite... the original post
(Johnny) thought the w in kweym came from Frisian, that's why I posted to
show at least Modern Frisian doesn't have any -w- there so it would be
unlikely to be Frisian influence.

Aha! That's where the misunderstanding arose! We had pretty much the same
thought but somehow read Jonny's lines somewhat differently:

In the (whole?) area of Eastern Friesland "ick kweym" ("I came") still is in
daily use, and even in our region you might hear it now and then - perhaps
as a result of the historical western, i.e. Frisian and Dutch influence.

I took his "perhaps ..." phrase as a vague added thought rather than as a
real opinion and as his actual point.

Anyway, sorry that I misunderstood you, and happy that we actually agree.

This settled (?), I'd like to shift to a related topic, related also to the
issue of northern vs southern Dutch.

Do not also the Dutch dialects of historical Holland (i.e. roughly today's
Netherlands provinces of Northern and Southern Holland) have considerable
old Frisian substrata? Apparently, Frisian used to be spoken in a broad band
pretty much all the way along the coast of today's Netherlands, with older,
and perhaps less concentrated presence along what are now the southern parts
of the Netherlands and Northern Belgium. My rough assumption is that Frisian
language density used to be stronger in the north, used to be mostly
coastal, and that consequently Frisian substrata in coastal Dutch are
stronger in the north.

If this assumption is justified, I wonder if some differences between
northern and southern Dutch varieties owe to degrees of intensity of Frisian
substrata, or in many cases the presence and absence of them. This is aside
from the issue of conservatism which is clearly stronger in southern
varieties. (Or maybe I should rather say that the influential coastal
northern varieties are very innovative.)

Since Frisian was and is essentially a coastal language (though there used
to be Frisian communities that lived a good way away from the coast), I
wonder if we should look at differences between coastal and inland Dutch
varieties as well, "inland" here meaning "outside the sphere of direct
Frisian influence". This would exclude the entire north of the Netherlands,
since most Low Frankish and Low Saxon varieties there have been under some
degree of Frisian influence or other.

One difference that springs to mind right away is what I personally term
"Rhenish" features of the far-eastern Low Frankish varieties. These seem to
be areal rather than genealogical features. First and foremost among these
(at least in *my* mind) is velarization of /n/ (as in "thi*n*" and "si*nn*er")
to /??/ ([N], as in "thi*ng*" and "si*ng*er").

This feature is predominant in Ripuarian, which is Central Frankish, thus
outside the Low Frankish sphere:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ripoaresch-info.php
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ripoaresch-koelsch.php

For instance, in Cologne Ripuarian, **din* 'the (masc. acc.)' is *ding*, *
*sinem* 'his (dat.)' is *singem*, and **sch??nde *(> **sch??nne*)* *is *
sch??nge* 'to scold'.

The closer we get to the Rhine region, the more frequent this feature seems
to be in Low Frankish, thus in the Lowlands area, as well. You find it in
some Brabantish, Limburgish and Cleves Low Frankish varieties, for instance.

*Brabantish:*
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-intro.php

Present:
Antwerp: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-antwerpen.php
e.g. *monster* > *mongster, ons *> *ongs*
*
*Apparently absent:
Merchtem: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants.php
Rosmalen: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-rosmalen.php

*Limburgish:
*http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-info.php

Present:
Vliermal: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-vliermaal.php
e.g. **kinder* > *k??nger*

Apparently absent:
Brunssum: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-brunssum.php
Bilzen: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-bilzen.php

*Cleves Low Frankish:
*http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/kleverlands-info.php

Present:
Solingen: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-berjisch.php
e.g. **sch??nden *> *sch??ngen*

Apparently absent:
Venlo: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-venlo.php
M??lheim: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/limburgs-mulheim.php
Cuijk: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/kuuks.php
Liemers: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/liemers.php

I am not saying that this is a major distinguishing feature in Low Frankish.
What I am trying to propose is that it is *one* distinguishing areal feature
within eastern varieties of Low Frankish.

Any comments?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/bfa6e353/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 13 21:03:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:03:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.140324.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (01) [EN]

 *> From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
> Subject: **LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.12 (05) [EN]
> And what about the town of Mechel(e)n in Belgium? The same root of the
name...?*

Carnoy gives for *Mechelen* (Fr. Malines; 1008 Machlines):
Old Dutch: *machel, mahl --> *machl??n*: place of reunion, tribunal

In the lemma for *Male* (in West Flanders) however he starts from::
Got *mathl*, alt HD *mahal*, cf. in modern Dutch *gemaal*, *ontmoeten*, Engl
*to meet*
leading to two forms in toponomy:
**mathla* --> *Malle* (cf. the trapppist beer of West-Malle)
**madhla* --> *mahal* --> -*maal, Male* (I was born in Vlier*maal*)
The meaning is also here: place of reunion, tribunal

Regards,
Roger

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/9305ffdc/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 13 21:04:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:04:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.140447.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.11 (03) [EN]

Hoi Diederik,

In Getelands broer , moeder, vader en zuster are neutal when preceded by a
possessive pronoun. Pa en moe don't follow this rule. They are respectively
masculine and feminine.

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/7a0c8a8a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 01:10:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:10:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.181000.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (03) [EN]

Thank you, Roger! The name seemed so like Mecklen(burg), but the explanation
is quite different! "Mahl" = "reunion" sounds plausible. But plausibility is
for amateurs, hm? I confess it lets me down a little. It seems quite
impossible to conclude by analogy. You have to know the name's history. I
thought I had guessed something, and I was all wrong.

Is this "Mahl" = "meal" (that is a reunion too, people meet there) or is it
the "Mal" = "spot", "special place", e.g. in "Denkmal"? "Mahl" has to do
with mahlen, Mehl etc., I suppose? There is no lost t in Mahl?

Meek greetings from

Marlou

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I had the same question (about German *Mahl*) when I read your explanation,
Roger. I just didn't go digging because I didn't have the time and wanted to
leave it to others.

On an unrelated (?) point, I am assuming that Old Saxon *mikil*, Scots *
muckle*, etc. are related to Sanskrit *maha* (??????) 'great' , as in the epic *
Mah??bh**??rata* (?????????????????????) and in *mah**??**laya* (???????????????) 'great
building/dwelling' as found in Hindustani and Persian *T??j Mah**??l* (?????????
?????????, ?????? ??????).

The Indo-European forms include *me??(h)-*, hence Greek *meg??-* (????????-), *
megalos* (??????????????) 'great' (as in "megalomaniac") and Latin *mag-n-* 'great'
(e.g. *magnus*, "magnificent", "magnanimous" etc.).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/551762ff/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 01:12:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:12:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.181206.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: KarlRein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (04) [EN]

Please give us some sentences as examples.

Thanks.

Karl Reinhardt

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.11 (03) [EN]

Hoi Diederik,

In Getelands broer , moeder, vader en zuster are neutal when preceded by a
possessive pronoun. Pa en moe don't follow this rule. They are respectively
masculine and feminine.

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/76c70cfb/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 03:15:39 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:15:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.201539.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (05) [EN]

Re ???Mahl??? and Sanskrit Maha: Aha Marlou, hence German Mahlzeit, Dutch
maaltijd. The question then becomes if ones ???gemaal??? is the one that eats at
your table? The Mall is certainly an important place for American shoppers,
but becomes (again)  a meeting place for teenagers.

Also Sanskrit Maha: Is that also the root of the Himalayas Ron?

Jacqueline

Seattle WA.
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Jacqueline!

Also Sanskrit Maha: Is that also the root of the Himalayas Ron?

You may be onto something there, o cleverest of neighbors.

"Himalaya" comes from Sanskrit *Him**??laya* (??????????????????) which is usually
translated as "Abode of Snow".

It may well be a contracted form of *hima* ((?????????) 'snow' and
*mah**??**laya*(???????????????) 'great abode' .
If so, It may be best translated as "Great Abode of Snow".

This Sanskrit name is used in pretty much all of the descended Prakrit
languages, e.g. Hindi, Marathi, Nepali, Newari *Him??lay *(??????????????????),
Punjabi *Him??lay
*(??????????????????), Gujarati *Him??lay *(??????????????????), Bengali *Himaloy *(?????????????????????). And it
was imported into non-Indo-European languages of Asia as well, even into
Tibetan * *as *Himalaya* (??????????????????).

But in Nepali the word *himal* (???????????? < **himala*) alone means 'snow-covered
mountain'. Many significant Himalayan mountains have this in their names.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/3c4af1e0/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 03:20:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:20:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.202006.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

*
**Old Saxon has mikil for 'big', 'large', 'great'. I assume it's pronounced
like "mickil". It's the same in Old Low Frankish. Old German has mihhil
which would have to become *michel or *mechel. **
**
**The old name (recorded in 995) is indeed Mikilinburg. A referred to the
fortress built there. The Middle Saxon name is Mekelenborch.**
**
**In Lower Saxony, just south of Hamburg, there is a town called Meckelfeld.
I assume this is derived from *Mikilfeld.*


Phonetically speaking, Mecklenburg should indeed have -k- (and not -ch-).
"Mecklenbeck", southwest of M??nster, may also contain this word mikil...even
though I guess the "Mecklenbach" may not be a very large stream.

What puzzled me though, is that Kiliaan cited "Mechelburg" for the region
and "Mechelburgher" for an inhabitant. First I thought, well maybe he just
copied the High German pronunciation, but when I checked other cities in the
North I saw that he consistently avoided High German: Hamborgh, Danswijck,
Sleswijck, Maeghdenborgh/Meydenborgh... Moreover it seems that older Danish
and Swedish were also using the term "Mechelburg":

http://www.skjaldesang.ibit.dk/estrato.php?Page=vissang&sid=578
http://www.skjaldesang.dk/estrato.php?Page=vissang&sid=557
http://www.statensarkiv.se/default.aspx?id=9686&refid=1170

Mid 18th century, Johann Christoph Gottsched wrote:

*Ich schreibe mit Bedacht Mechelburg; denn so soll die?? Wort geschrieben
werden, um seinen Ursprung anzuzeigen. Es k??mmt von **Michel**, welches
vormals gro?? hie??, und mit dem griechischen ?????????????? ??bereinstimmte, u. von
Burg: Michelburg, oder Mechelburg hei??t also die **gro??e Burg**: so wie
hingegen Luxenburg, oder L??tzelburg, wie es die Alten schrieben, **die
kleine Burg hie??**. Damit stimmet denn auch die Benennung MEGALOPOLIS sehr
wohl ??berein. Und vieleicht k??mmt selbst die Benennung, ein**Deutscher
Michel**, blo?? daher, da?? die alten Deutschen mehrentheils gro??e ansehnliche
Leute gewesen. Denn der hebr??ische Namen Michael schicket sich hier gar
nicht her. Man will mir die Rechtschreibung von Mechelburg abdisputiren.
Allein, ich habe ein altes Manuscript deutscher Heldenlieder von 1400 und
etlichen 80: darinn steht beym mecklenburgischen Wapen: **Balthasar von Gotz
Gnaden Herczog czu Mechelwurgk**. Wer beym k bleiben will, kann es indessen
thun. Ich zeige nur den Sinn und Ursprung. Da?? aber Rostock, wie man mich
bereden will, von **Ro??**, ein Pferd, und **tock**, ein Zug, d.i. einem
Aufzuge zu Pferde herkomme, werde ich schwerlich glauben. Ich weis l??ngst,
da?? die?? Wort wendischer Abkunft ist; so gut, als L??beck und Leipzig selbst.
W??ren Ritterspiele da gehalten worden: so m????te es vorher schon eine Stadt
gewesen seyn, die darum ihren Namen nicht ge??ndert haben w??rde. Warum hie??e
es nicht gar **Rasttag**?*


Sure, one can hardly refrain from laughing when he tries to explain the name
"Michael", but he too mentions "Mechelwurgk".

Regarding Mechelen, city in Belgium, De Vries had his doubts, either the
name derives from *magalinum (~ Sanskrit "maha") or from "mahla" (tribunal).
He seemed to prefer the latter explanation, which is cognate with German
"Gemahl" and "verm??hlen".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/21c7d143/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 04:19:19 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:19:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.211919.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear friends,

I'm afraid the etymological *bogle *has not yet had his fill of haunting the
Lowlands-L premises this fine Saturday night.

I am wondering about English "to rush" as a likely relative of Low Saxon
"rusch-" ([r????]) 'to rush (as of the sound of water, leaves or paper)', 'to
move in a way as to make such a sound', and 'to move forward with much
energy' (i.e. 'to rush').

I am pretty sure they *are* connected, also that they are connected with
German *rauschen* which these days is mostly confined to the idea of making
the sound of fast-running water or air.

Furthermore, Low Saxon has the diminutive-frequentive (-l-) form
*ruschel-*'to rustle', especially in reference to leaves and paper,
for instance
(equivalent to German *raschel-*).

Most interesting to me is the Low Saxon adjective/adverb *rusch* ([r????]) ~ *
ruusch* ([ru????]) meaning things like 'energetic(ally)', 'casual(ly)' and
also 'crisp(ly)'. (This is one of the Low Saxon words that tend to fall
through the cracks because they have no German cognates.) It is difficult to
explain its usage. (See below.)

Connected with this is an adjectival phrase of the once very popular
alliterative sort: *risch un rusch*. *Risch*, another "un-German" word,
means things like 'fast', 'agile' and also 'slim' or 'slender'. So *risch un
rusch* denotes something with a lot of energy; e.g. *Risch un rusch nehmen
se j??m ??hr Sch**??ffeln, Forken un Bl????en un lepen to de Vullmacht **??hr Huus
an* ("With much energy and zeal they took their shovels, pitch forks and
torches and ran toward the squires house.").

I would be interested in reactions and expansions of this thread.

Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/74d40be0/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 06:42:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:42:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (09) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.13.JUN.2009.234222.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (05) [EN]

 *> From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (03) [EN]
* *> ...  The name seemed so like Mecklen(burg), but the explanation
is quite different!*

I would like to add that there are several (former) municipalities with a
name "*Mechelen*" or alike in the Benelux.
There may have different etymologies,
there also may be occurences for smaller sites (parts of former
municpalities)

A - For Belgium:
In the "Gemeenten van Belgi??", Ed. Gemeentekrediet, 1980, 4 vol.:
 5 (former) municipalities with a Mechelen-like name are listed.
Unfortunately, the old forms are not always listed.

1 - *Machelen* (NE of Brussels, has absorbed Diegem)

2 - *Machelen* (now absorbed in "Zulte", East Flanders)
*Mahlinum* (821-823), *Mageleno* (847), *Maglina* (966)

3  *Mechelen* (prov. Antwerp)
was an enclave of the pricipality of Liege, that got somehow independent
Important postion in the Burgondian Netherlands:
1473 installation of the Parliament of Mechelen
15th century, after the death of Charles, the court of Margareth of York
moved to Mechelen
1504 installation of the "Grote Raad" (High Court) of the Netherlands
1530 after the death of Margareth of Austria, the government relocated to
Brussels
1559 capital of the new archbishopric

4 - *Mechelen-aan-de-Maas* (prov. Limburg, now part of "Maasmechelen", a new
name)

5 - *Mechelen-Bovelingen* (prov. Limburg, now part of "Heers")
old names in Dutch: *Mecheln*, *Quaedmechelen*
in French: *Ma(r)lines*

B - On the web:

1 - http://www.machelen.be/
2 - http://www.zulte.be/WWW/gemeente/g3/35.html
3 - http://www.mechelen.be/
4 - http://www.maasmechelen.be/
5 - http://www.heers.be

C - For the Netherlands (Van Berkel, Nederlandse plaatsnamen);

6 - *Mechelen *(Limburg, now part of "Gulpen-Wittem"):
1133 *de Mechlum;* 14th c. *Mechlen,* supposed etym. **magalunas*

7 - *Megchelen* (Gelderland, now part of"Oude IJsselstreek")
1138, *Mehla*, 1218 *in silva Mehtlo*, 1218 *Mehtlo, Mechtlo*, 1357-1365 *
Meggele*

D - On the web:

6 - http://www.gulpen-wittem.nl
7 - http://www.oude-ijsselstreek.nl/

Regards,
Roger

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090613/cadb83b1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 19:27:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:27:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.122732.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (07) [EN]

 To Ron Re Sanskrit Maha: Ach mein Himmel!. Jacqueline

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [EN]

Hello Reinhard,

my parents, especially my mother (Elbm??rscher Platt) often used the
adjective "resch" to characterize a brusque, energetic, short-spoken person:
"Sie hat so eine resche Art", "Sie war schon in ihrer Jugend eine spr??de,
resche Person, aber bildsch??n...". It was mostly used for women (perhaps men
were welcome to be resch, but women weren't :-)), but not always in a
derogatory sense, sometimes with a certain appreciation. It seems this word
is a close relative of "risch", or maybe just another way of spelling.

Hartlich!

Marlou

------------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (07) [EN]

First off, this same /mah??-/ also finds its place in ??????????????????????????????
 Mah??r??STra 'Maharashtra' -- literally 'grea??? country', the Indian
state of which Mumbai (aka Bombay) is the capital.

Second, a few additions/modifications to the dicussion of the secodn
element of ?????????????????? /Him??laya/, meaning 'place (or if you wish to sound
high-falutin' 'abode') of snow'.

The ?????????- /him-/ as noted is the Sanskritic root /him-/ 'snow' and the
/-??laya/ is a common Sanskritic lexical suffix meaning 'place of'. In
addtion to ??????????????? /mah??laya/ 'great place' and ????????????????????? /Mah??bh??rat/
literally 'Great Bharat (a word which now translates as India)' which
R/R cites, are also (to name but a few): ??????????????????????????? /pustak??laya/
'library' from ?????????????????? /pustak/ 'book'; ????????????????????? /bhojan??laya/
'cafeteria' from ???????????? /bhojan/ 'dinner'; ???????????????????????? /k??ry??laya/ 'office'
from ??????????????? /k??rya/ 'work'... and hundreds of others in common
circulation.

As for Nepali ???????????? /himal/ which R/R also cites, this is also a
Sanskritism (the Nepali for 'snow' is ???????????? /hiuM/), and is an
adjectival form, literally 'snowy'. My favorite example of the
adjectival suffix /-al/ (whose long grade /-??l/ MAY be found in
/-??laya/??) is taken from a brand of icecream popular when I lived in
Nepal (V.S. 2035-2036); despensing with etymologies, the brand was
Shital ... reanalyzed in those less-hygenic times as an appropriate
English brand-name having a space after the /t/ and an additional /l/
;-)

mike || U C > || ????????  || ???????????? || ????????? || ????????????
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          (( Michael W Morgan, PhD ))
    to be Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Ethiopian Sign Language & Deaf Studies Program
      Addis Ababa University (Ethiopia)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
?????????? ???????????? ???? ?????????????? ????????, ???????? ?????? ?????? ????.
The longer a blind man lives, the more he sees.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, you "guys"!

Jacqueline, was that *Himmel* or *himal*?

Marlou, I have no doubt that *resch* is a dialectical variant of *risch*. In
certain words, mid and high vowels alternate according to dialect, for
instance in *bit ~ bet* 'until', 'up to', *gissen ~ gessen* 'to guess', *Ingel
~ Engel* 'angel', and *Ingelsch ~ Engelsch* 'English'.

(Is this a very old thing? Consider the English spelling and pronunciation
of "English", "England" etc.)

While maybe not perfect, "brusque" seems like a good equivalent of *risch ~
resch*, I feel.

Which leads me to a Low Saxon adjective-adverb with a similar meaning:
(French *force* > Late Middle Saxon *forsche* >) *foorsch ~ fuursch* which
is one of many Low Saxon words imported into German (where it is *forsch*).

Another such Low Saxon adjective-adverb is *basch*. I don't yet know its
etymology. From French *bas* 'low' perhaps?

As you can tell, such Low Saxon words tend to have *-sch* at the end. I
assume it is the equivalent of German *-isch and English *"-ish", originally
denoting something like "in the manner of ..." or just "like ..." or
"...-like", thus probably related to *-esc-* in Romance languages (such as
Italian *tedesco* 'German', and in English words of French provenance such
as "grotesque" and "picturesque"). In the case of *foorsch* (see above) I
assume that it came to be reanalyzed as a *-sch* word.

Other such examples:

*d????nsch* 'Danish'
*franksch* 'Frankish'
*fransch *'French'
*poolsch *'Polish'
*hollandsch* 'Dutch'
*fiensch ~ f????nsch* 'angry' (from *Fiend* 'fiend', 'enemy')
(*k????rsch *>) *kr????sch *'picky (with food)' (from *K????r *'choice')

The old *-i-* surfaces after /s/, as in *sassisch* 'Saxon', sometimes not,
as in *freesch* (not **fresisch*) 'Frisian' and *chineesch* (not *
*chinesisch*) 'Chinese'.

In English, adjectival-adverbial "-ish" is used similarly, not only as in
"Danish", "Polish" etc., but also in words such as "peckish", "sluggish",
"selfish", "childish", "mannish", 'devilish" and "fiendish". Informally, it
remains an impromptu active lexical morpheme, as in "noonish" (around noon),
"It'll be ninish by the time he's done", "Don't I look fattish in this
dress?", "Your intro is a bit on the longish side."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/87202010/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 19:30:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:30:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.123035.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Wortneusch??pfung

Liebe Freunde,

??ber Wortneusch??pfung mache ich mir so meine Gedanken.
Aber zuvor wieder ein Beitrag von Dr. phil. J??rgen Gundlach
*Von Aant bis Z??g'*:

Hulbessen

Im Jahre 1936 notierte Richard Wossidlo in B??tzow eine lustige
Wortneusch??pfung, als eine Hausfrau von ihrem *Hulbessen* sprach, mit dem
sie den 'Staubsauger' meinte. Das Wort wurde ins Mecklenburgische W??rterbuch
aufgenommen und sp??ter oft zitiert, es hat auch wohl bis heute hin eine
gewisse Popularit??t erlangt. *Hulbessen* ist eine humoristische Bildung, wie
beispielsweise *Draht??sel *und *Schosseespenn *f??r das 'Fahrrad'.
Die wissenschaftlich-technische Revolution sowie die gesellschaftliche und
politische Entwicklung verlangen der Sprache st??ndig eine F??lle von
Neupr??gungen ab. Diese geschehen in den Fachsprachen und gehen in die Hoch-
und auch Umgangssprache ??ber. Wie aber verhalten sich Mundart und
Mundartsprecher angesichts solcher Neupr??gungen? Wie geschieht die
volkssprachliche Bew??ltigung der neuen Gegebenheiten?
Drei W??rter der h??chsten Stufe, der sogenannten Eigenbew??ltigung, haben wir
eben kennengelernt, dazu geh??rt auch neuerdings *dat Kiekschapp *f??r den
'Fernsehapparat'. *Hulbessen, Kiekschapp, Draht??sel *und
*Schosseespenn*werden als Gelegenheitsbildungen kaum allgemeine
Verbindlichkeit erlangen,
wie es einmal bei der *Rummel*, der 'Kornreinigungsmaschine', und dem *
D??schkasten,*  der
'Dreschmaschine', der Fall gewesen ist.
H??ufiger als durch Eigenbew??ltigung behilft sich die Mundart durch sagen wir
einmal Verplattdeutschung des hochdeutschen Wortes. Die
'Eisenbahn' wird zur *Isenbahn,* die 'Fahrkarte' zur *Fohrkoort,* das
'Streichholz' zum *Strikholt.*
Hier befinden wir uns an der Grenze zur dritten, vom Leistungsverm??gen der
Sprache her schw??chsten M??glichkeit, die darin besteht, das neue
hochdeutsche Wort oder den Fachterminus unver??ndert in die Mundart zu
??bernehmen: *Bi 'n Konsum is tau, dei hebben Warenannahme; de Dokter hett
Sitzung bi de ??rzteberatungskommision.*
Ob nun einer seinen *Staubsauger* zur Reparatur bringt oder seinen
*Stoffsuger *oder seinen *Hulbessen, dat kann hei hollen as 'n Dackdecker. *Die
Mundart hat da keinen Anspruch mehr auf Regelverbindlichkeit. (Zitatende)

Anmerkung: Streichholz : Rietsticken s. Wossidlo/Teuchert
Eintrittskarte, Fahrkarte: Billet frz. : Balgett RoRibn, Balljett Reut.,
Wossidlo/Teuchert.
Heute sprechen wir von Regional- und Minderheitensprachen in
Deutschland (also nicht von 'Mundart').
Die Verplattdeutschung haben wir z.T. unbewu??t angenommen.
Der dritte Weg stimmt mich auch traurig. Fremdw??rter sollte man ??bernehmen.
Aber das Beispiel: *Bi 'n Konsum ...usw., *h??rt sick je mihr nah Mischmasch
an.
Wie denkt ihr ??ber diesen Trend. Ich sehe darin keine sprachliche
Bereicherung.
Ich denke an Klaus Groth, wie hei??t es da noch...
Min Modersprak, wa klingst du sch??n!
Wa b??st du mi vertrut!

Hinz: Ward nu min Hart as Stahl un Steen,
          geiht uns de Puust nu ut...

Noch etwas: Ich besitze
l.Band  KLAUS GROTH QUICKBORNLIEDER (aber mit Vertonungen
f??r Gesang und Klavier. Wundersch??????n!)

Makt juug mal 'n Kopp.

Hartlich Gr??uten.
Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/454e2883/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 14 21:17:03 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:17:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.141703.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (02) [DE-NDS]

Hi all,

Liebe Hannelore, darf ich dabeihinf??gen, dass wir ???Dreschmaschine??? auf
Afrikaans ???dorsmasjien??? nennen, obwohl das Ger??t nat??rlich nichts mit
???durst??? zu tun hat.

Gruss,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (02) [DE-NDS]

Liebe Hanne,

das Kapitel, das Du ansprichst, ist ganz wichtig. Es ist wichtig, dass wir
uns klar sind, was wir der plattdeutschen Sprache abfordern *m??ssen* und was
wir ihr nicht abfordern *d??rfen*, um ihr nicht die Luft abzuschn??ren.

W??rter wie "Huulbessen" sind eine echte Bereicherung, und Platt ist klasse
darin, Abstraktes durch Griffiges zu ersetzen; aber man darf es nicht darauf
festnageln. Die Suche nach einem pd. ??quivalent f??r "Computer" hat schon
mehrere erfreuliche Vorschl??ge gezeitigt, aber dennoch finde ich es v??llig
legitim, auch in pd. Texten Computer "Computer" zu nennen. Vorsicht: Das
Finden von "anschaulichen", "griffigen" ??quivalenten kann die Sprache auch
in die Humor-Ecke zur??ckdr??ngen, aus der sie sich sowieso nur zaghaft
raustraut!

Es gibt Leute, die von Plattdeutsch verlangen, f??r alles ein """eigenes"""
Wort zu haben, sonst sei es "nicht echt". Das geht so weit, dass man als
Plattdeutschsprecherin nicht "Auto" sagen darf, denn das ist ja nicht Platt.
Am??santerweise halten diese Menschen das Wort "Auto" f??r Hochdeutsch. Was es
nat??rlich nicht ist, "Automobil" ist griechisch-lateinisch. So empfinden die
das aber gar nicht, und wir auch nicht, wenn wir ehrlich sind; denn das
Automobil wurde schlie??lich in Deutschland erfunden und ist etwas so richtig
Deutsches :-) Da wird ein Grundmuster erkennbar: Was Hochdeutsch darf, darf
Platt noch lange nicht. Hochdeutsch darf Fremdw??rter aufnehmen, sich zu
eigen machen, aber in Platt wird das kritisiert, "das passt nicht", "das
wirkt doch unecht", "das ist doch kein Platt mehr". Vor einiger Zeit gab es
eine Literatin -- ihren Namen habe ich erfolgreich verdr??ngt --, die
Gedichte von Erich Fried ins Pd. ??bersetzt hatte. "Die Entmystifizierung des
Sex" hie?? das Original, "Mit'n Holthamer op dat s??te Geheimnis" die
??bersetzung des Titels, und der Rest war so, wie der Titel verhie??. Nicht
nur war die ??bersetzungsarbeit ziemlich eindimensional und tapsig, die
Autorin war auch in die Falle gegangen, m??glichst alles "echt plattdeutsch"
sagen zu wollen. Immerhin hat die Autorin Respekt f??r ihren Mut
verdient, denn Versuuch macht kluuch, man konnte was draus lernen. Aber
was?! Diesen gefloppten Versuch verriss eine Zeitung hier h??metriefend unter
dem Motto "Man kann eben solche Dinge nicht auf Plattdeutsch sagen, daf??r
taugt die Sprache nicht!" !!!!!!!!! Wut!!!!!!!!!!!! Genau das kann man
*nicht* daraus lernen. Ebenso k??nnte man Frieds Originale nehmen und sagen
"Da seht ihrs, man kann sowas nicht auf Hochdeutsch sagen." Denn ist
vielleicht "Entmystifizierung" und "Sex" Hochdeutsch? Naaa...? Ich seh
schon, viele werden sagen: Ja, Hochdeutsch ist das, aber Plattdeutsch ist
das niemals. Ist das nicht ungerecht? Ich schrieb damals einen erbosten
Brief an die Zeitung -- nat??rlich auf Platt -- des Inhalts, ob sie erwarten,
dass etwas anderes rauskomme, wenn Plattdeutsch wie ein Oldtimer gegen
Hochdeutsch als getunten Ferrari antreten soll? Der Brief wurde als
hochkomisch empfunden und mit Genuss als original plattdeutscher
Humor ver??ffentlicht.

Andere Puristen gibt es, die nicht mal das Erfinden neuer, plattdeutscher
W??rter zulassen wollen. Wieso muss man auf Pd. von Autos reden? Zur
Hoch-Zeit des Plattdeutschen gab es keine Autos! F??r solche Leute ist Platt
nat??rlich eine mausetote Sprache, nicht mal mangels Sprechern, sondern durch
ihre erstickenden Prinzipien.

Was ich wichtig finde: Platt muss seinen Charakter behalten. Dazu geh??ren
auch seine spezifischen Talente, etwa die des Anschaulichmachens. Aber nicht
darauf festnageln!!! Platt muss neue W??rter und auch Fremdw??rter aufnehmen
d??rfen, es muss auch ??ber Abstraktes reden (lernen), ??ber Philosophie und
Politik und auch B??rokratie. Das ist dringend, ja ??berf??llig. Saftige
Neusch??pfungen: ja, aber nur, wenn man sie auch ernst nehmen kann! Hein
Thies befasst sich hier http://www.fehrsgill-sass.marless.de/ mit dem
Sammeln solcher neuer W??rter und freut sich ??ber Mail. Dass er alles auf die
Sass-Schreibweise anpasst, ist eben so. Gibt Schlimmeres. Leben und leben
lassen!

Priorit??t 1: Platt reden.
Priorit??t 2: Hochdeutschizismen vermeiden. Wenn's nicht anders geht, Wort
anst??ndig "pl??tten". Dann weiterreden!!!
Priorit??t 3: Gute, zeitlose, nachhaltig verwendbare Neusch??pfungen.

Ik knuddel di!

Marlou

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/708e0ae1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 03:22:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:22:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.14 (04) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.202228.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Leve L????d',
Nu heff ik mien Klaus-Groth-Sieten up Schick br??cht un ??hr ook 'n b??ten wat
upfladuust. Kiekt jo ??hr maal an!

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/

Folks,
I've renovated and redecorated my Klaus Groth presentation. Please take a
look!

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/02b33ceb/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 05:39:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:39:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (05) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.14.JUN.2009.223942.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (01) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Another such Low Saxon adjective-adverb is /basch/. I don't yet know its
> etymology. From French /bas/ 'low' perhaps?
>

Dat d??cht mi eenfach, dat is dat s??lve Woord, wat op Hoochd????tsch "barsch"
heet. Blot mit en rutfullen 'r', j??st as wi dat ok in en ganze Reeg annere
W????r hebbt ('swatt', 'hatt', 'Masch', 'd??schen', 'Wuddel', 'Baddel',
'Atillerie' un noch veel, veel mehr [woveel, h??ngt von'n Dialekt af]).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dank di, Marcus. Wat 'n D????sbattel ik b??n! Ja, 'n D????sbartel mit 'n R locker
...

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090614/0adabc1c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 18:15:10 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:15:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.111510.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

Dear all,

Those of you interested in Antwerp dialect may find this blog interesting:

http://aentwaereps.blogspot.com/

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/936f62bf/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 18:17:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:17:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.15 (03) [DE]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.111707.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (03) [DE-EN]

Liebe Hanne und Lieber Ron,
die Nachrichten ??ber Prof. K. Wanatabe von Hanne ist mir sehr interessant.
Ich habe das Buch "Inf??hrung in't Plattd????tsch" ist ja das erste Buch des
Plattdeuschen f??r mich, damit habe ich diese Sprache zu lernen angefangen.
Es ist das einzige Lehrbuh des Plattdeutschen geschrieben in Japanisch.
Prof. Wanatabe handelt das Platt von Niedersachsen, Schleswig-Holstein bis
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. In diesem Buch sagte er, da?? er mehrere Briefwechsel
mit J. Sass, Gustav Dehning, und H. Gronau gemacht hatte. Man kann in diesem
Buch mehrere Beispiele der plattdeuschen Werken (die Anz??ge):
Min Moderspraak, Eikboom, De Edelmann un de Snieder von F. Meyer,
De Mann ut 'n Paradies,  Ulenspegel un Jan Dood von M. Jahn, Dood in Bl??men
von M. Jahn, De fr??mde Fro. von H. Schmidt-Barrien, und
Dei Nibelung'n ehr' Not, ??bersetzt von H. Meinhold

Prof. Watanabe ??bersetzte viele Werken von deutschen Klassikern: Goethe,
Schiller u.a. auch die Text B??cher des Detscuhen f??r Anf??nger.

Einige meiner Freunden/inen in Holstein/Hamburg hatten ihm gesehen, als er
dort besucht hatte.

Also, ist es alles f??r heute,

Hartlich Greuten ut Japan

Yasuji Waki

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/2bedf97d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 18:11:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:11:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.15 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.111154.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

 Another such Low Saxon adjective-adverb is /basch/. I don't yet know its
> etymology. From French /bas/ 'low' perhaps?
>

Dat d?????cht mi eenfach, dat is dat s?????lve Woord, wat op Hoochd??????????tsch
"barsch" heet. Blot mit en rutfullen 'r', j?????st as wi dat ok in en ganze
Reeg annere W????????????r hebbt ('swatt', 'hatt', 'Masch', 'd??????schen', 'Wuddel',
'Baddel', 'Atillerie' un noch veel, veel mehr [woveel, h?????ngt von'n Dialekt
af]).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dank di, Marcus. Wat 'n D????????????sbattel ik b?????n! Ja, 'n D????????????sbartel mit 'n R
locker ...


Another word, which is semantically very close is "bats". In many Dutch
dialects it means "stern, surly, haughty" (Westvlaams, Veluws, Drents,
Gronings, Fries). Also shows up in Westfalian "batsig" and German "patzig" <
*backezen ~ batzen: lump. If Southwestern Brabantish would have known the
word, it might have been pronounced as "basch" (losing the t plus
palatalisation).

Influence of "bausch" (G), "boos" (D), "to boast" (E)?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [EN]

Ron wrote: ???Low Saxon has the diminutive-frequentive (-l-) form
*ruschel-*'to rustle', especially in reference to leaves and paper,
for instance
(equivalent to German *raschel-*).???

Here in Texas we also have the by-gone phenomenon of cattle rustling which
means stealing cattle from someone else???s herd to add to your own.  I
suppose that brought about the practice of branding cattle, so that one
could identify them.  I suspect this kind of rustle comes from the same
word, but expanded it meaning to steal cattle under cover of darkness and
quickly.

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (01) [EN]

Beste Marlou,

Du schreyvst:

...used the adjective "resch" to characterize a brusque, energetic,
short-spoken person: "Sie hat so eine resche Art", "Sie war schon in ihrer
Jugend eine spr??de, resche Person, aber bildsch??n...". It was mostly used
for women (perhaps men were welcome to be resch, but women weren't :-)), but
not always in a derogatory sense, sometimes with a certain appreciation. It
seems this word is a close relative of "risch", or maybe just another way of
spelling.

Additional to Ron I found some more interesting facts around this word:

*GRIMM:*

"1)  neben rasch erscheint auch die form resch, namentlich oberdeutsch,
ferner risch, rosch, r??sch (w. m. s.); zwischen rasch und resch steht die
schreibung r??sch: der ein r??sche zunge"
*
Harper Online:*

"rash (adj.)
c.1300, "nimble, quick, vigorous," a Scottish and northern word, perhaps
from O.E. -r??sc (cf. ligr??sc "flash of lightning"), from P.Gmc. *raskuz (cf.
M.L.G. rasch, M.Du. rasc "quick, swift," Ger. rasch "quick, fast"). Related
to O.E. horsc "quick-witted." Sense of "reckless, impetuous, heedless of
consequences" is attested from 1509.
 Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Dick Bateman <dickbateman at hotmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.14 (01) [EN]

Hello there!

Ron wrote:

In English, adjectival-adverbial "-ish" is used similarly, not only as in
"Danish", "Polish" etc., but also in words such as "peckish", "sluggish",
"selfish", "childish", "mannish", 'devilish" and "fiendish". Informally, it
remains an impromptu active lexical morpheme, as in "noonish" (around noon),
"It'll be ninish by the time he's done", "Don't I look fattish in this
dress?", "Your intro is a bit on the longish side."

In this part of the world at least "ish" can colloquially also be used as a
modifier in its own right, although totally dependent on the preceding
utterance (usually a question), as an alternative to "very", "quite",
"amazingly", etc.  Most interestingly of all it isn't necessarily just a
short informal form of adjective+ish as in Ron's examples above:

"Are you feeling OK now?" - "Ish." (= "OKish")
"Are you looking forward to tomorrow?" - "Ish." (= ?)

Such answers may be accompanied by a waggling of the outstretched hand, palm
down!

Best wishes

Dick Bateman
Retired languages teacher
Germanist
South Saxon (originally from the Sussex coast)
Chapel-en-le-Frith, High Peak, Derbyshire

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Dick!

How nice you decided to add your voice to a chorus of etymologists! Welcome!
I hope we'll hear from you regularly.

So, "ish" *has* become a word, at least in casual speech in a certain
region! I think it was merely a matter of time. I have occasionally resisted
the urge of saying "ish" myself while making a hand movement like that. It
seems so natural and tempting!

It may still be perceived as a somewhat jocular, slangy thing.
Theoretically, though, it is conceivable that it will develop into and
spread as a legitimate word, and the hand movement may become redundant.
Further in theory, "ish" could eventually be used without the implied
dependence (such as "Will you be here at ten then?" "Yeah, ...ish." (which
is really how it ought to be written for now). "Ish" could eventually come
to mean something like "approximately" or "vaguely". To go even farther on
this track of etymological theory in reverse, new words may develop on the
basis of "ish" (e.g. "All the dates and times are *ishy.")

Why is this a big deal? Independent words have been known to become clitics
and to eventually develop into suffixes, in the Germanic languages for
instance the "like" group becoming *-lic ~ -lig ~ ly*. (This process can be
traced very well among the Turkic languages where in some languages the
separate word is preserved, in some languages it has become a particle or
clitic which is dependent but is not integrated into the phonology of the
words to which it is attached, and in some languages it has become a true
suffix which adapts to the vowel harmony of the stems it modifies.) The case
of "ish", if it became legitimized, would be the same process in reverse: a
suffix that develops into a word. I can think of no other case like this.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/fb68f940/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 18:27:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:27:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.15 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.112746.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.09 (01) [EN]

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org <mailto:list at marcusbuck.org>>

> I made some further investigations in Germanic morphology and found out,
> that all what I said was based on false presumptions ;-)
> There's no paradigm "imperative follows infinitive/first person". "ich
> fahre", "er f??hrt", imperative "fahre" shows, that German too doesn't apply
> a rule like that. Actually the rules depend on the Ablaut classes for
> Germanic verbs. Third person and imperative only coincide for the Ablaut
> classes III.b. (Old High German: infinitive 'werfan', 1st person 'wirfu'
> [1st person followed the same pattern as 2nd/3rd person in Old High German],
> imperative 'wirf' = Modern German: infinitive 'werfen', 3rd person 'wirft',
> imperative 'wirf'), IV. ('neman', 'nimu', 'nim' = 'nehmen', 'nimmt',
> 'nimm'), and V. ('geban', 'gibu', 'gib' = 'geben', 'gibt', 'gib').
> At least according to <http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudsaksisch>
> corresponding forms existed in Old Saxon. The article mentions infinitive
> 'helpan', 1st person 'hilpu', imperative 'hilp' [Ablaut class III.b.]).
> Old Saxon short 'i' was sound-shifted to short 'e' in open syllables and in
> front of 'r' and 'l' later, so 'nimu', 'gi??u', 'wirpu', and 'hilpu' would
> all coincide with the infinitive after that sound shift. The 2nd and 3rd
> persons were formed with an 'i' in it (e.g. 'hilpis', 'hilpid') and where
> thus subject to Umlaut. So the 'i'->'e' sound shift didn't affect them and
> they stay different until today. Imperative forms 'wirp' and 'hilp' would
> have been subject to the 'i'->'e' sound shift too. But in closed syllables
> 'nim' and 'gi??' would lead to 'nimm' and 'giff'. They would only lead to
> 'nehm' and 'geev' if the syllables would have been open. It's not
> impossible, that besides 'nim' and 'gi??' based on dialect (most of our
> knowledge of Old Saxon is based on documents from the southern periphery and
> we know few about the northern dialects) there where different forms (e.g.
> 'nima' and 'gi??a'), that would explain the modern forms of 'nehm' and
> 'geev'. Another explanation would be, that the singular imperative forms
> were adjusted to the plural.
> And in the end we are where we were right at the start: Most likely it's a
> matter of dialect.
>
One more update: I just found a reference in H. Zahrenhusen: 'Lautstand der
Mundart von Horneburg', that in 1909 when Zahrenhusen wrote the book, in
Horneburg (which is southeast of Hamburg, about halfway between my home and
Hamburg), the imperative forms 'giff' and 'itt' could still be heard besides
the more widespread forms 'geev' un 'eet'. Personally I only know 'geev' and
'eet' from my dialect. But it seems, 'giff' and 'itt' are the original forms
and 'geev' and 'eet' are younger forms that were created by clearing effects
(but have gained widespread use cause they are easier to memorize).

That would mean, it's not German influence, but rather the opposite: A Low
Saxon innovation that was established although German backed the older
forms. Sounds much better to me than the "Low Saxon breaks under German
influence" story ;-)

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks a lot, Marcus! This is really interesting.

Let me just add for the benefit of our friends everywhere that today's Low
Saxon imperative forms influenced those of Missingsch and Missingsch-derived
northern German dialects. ("Missingsch" is a German dialect with a strong
Low Saxon substratum.)  In such varieties you say "Ess!" instead of "iss!"
(eat!), "geb!" instead of "gib!" (give!), and so forth.

Sounds much better to me than the "Low Saxon breaks under German influence"
story ;-)

I agree.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/6fff8316/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 19:32:51 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:32:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.15 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.123251.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.15 (01) [DE-EN]

 Sorry, dear Ron, you know that such statements mobilize all the spirit of
competition :-) But I assure you that it took me only 20 seconds to hit on
"zig". "Das hab ich dir doch schon zig Mal gesagt!"  suffix developed into a
word. Is it?

Hartlich!

Marlou

Ron wrote:

 a suffix that develops into a word. I can think of no other case like this.


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Aha! Good one, Marlou!

Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/5018969b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 19:38:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:38:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (06) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.123821.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]

 Beste Marlou,

Diin Biidrag hett mi allerbest touseggt!

Du schreyvst:

Die Suche nach einem pd. ??quivalent f??r "Computer" hat schon mehrere
erfreuliche Vorschl??ge gezeitigt, aber dennoch finde ich es v??llig legitim,
auch in pd. Texten Computer "Computer" zu nennen. Vorsicht: Das Finden von
"anschaulichen", "griffigen" ??quivalenten kann die Sprache auch in die
Humor-Ecke zur??ckdr??ngen, aus der sie sich sowieso nur zaghaft raustraut!

Un' denn is door ouk noch anners watt. De d????tsche Minsch kann heel best mit
de "Beh??rden-Spraok" ??mgoahn, un' denn kaomt doar wat bii 'ruut as (Fehrs):
"Ick hebb' f????r 'n Tempo??vertreden 'n Straofmandaot kreegen!" Greesig! Kunn
'n wii nich bii Platt bliiven un' seggen "Ick b??n tou hatt/hard foyhrt, un'
doar kreyg ick 'n (ingelsch) Ticket f????r!"? Sou waard hier denn woll snackt.
"In der K??rze liegt die (plattdeutsche) W??rze!"

Un' denn - schinnerhaftig tohoup-set'te W????r as *"**
Frequenzbereichszuweisungsplanverordnung**"* (dat Woord givvt dat
waorhavvtig!!!;* *denkt maol an dennen dusseligen
"Iisenbohn...dreyer"!!)* *passt
amenn' nich mang uns Spraok - dat laot 'troust de houghd????tschen Amtsl????d
maoken, in Br??ssel edders in Berlin of Hanouber.

Bii Fehrs' jemmer List' van Neologismen kriig ick faoken dat Schuddern...

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (03) [NDS]

Am 14.06.2009 um 23:17 schrieb Marlou Lessing:
 - Ault-Sassesk / Westf????lsk wiider unnen -

> Platt muss neue W??rter und auch Fremdw??rter aufnehmen d??rfen, es muss auch
> ??ber Abstraktes reden (lernen), ??ber Philosophie und Politik und auch
> B??rokratie. Das ist dringend, ja ??berf??llig. Saftige Neusch??pfungen: ja,
> aber nur, wenn man sie auch ernst nehmen kann!
> ...
> Priorit??t 1: Platt reden.
> Priorit??t 2: Hochdeutschizismen vermeiden. Wenn's nicht anders geht, Wort
> anst??ndig "pl??tten". Dann weiterreden!!!
> Priorit??t 3: Gute, zeitlose, nachhaltig verwendbare Neusch??pfungen.
>

(ault-sassesk (aune gew????r!):
... ...
??riste gibod (1): witig sahso thiudisko rethinon.

??thar gibod (2): unw??s ovar-thiudisk w??sa far-m??than. s?? ne g??d, word sidigi
??metl??k mak??n??. thanna forth gimahlon!!!

thriddio gibod (3): g??de, al-dar-lang niuwi gi-skepi mak??n.
---
Westf.:

Plat mot nigge w????rden un auk fr????md-w????rden  upniemen d??rfen, et mot auk
????wer abstraktet redden (l????ren), ????wer filosofigge un politik un auk
b??rokratigge. dat is dringend, jau ????werf??llig. Sappige nigsch??ppenge: jau,
awerst blaut, wan me se auk ernstliken niemen kan!
...
Prioriteyt 1: Plat k????ren.

Prioriteyt 3: Nighaug-ismen vermiiden. Wan't nich anners geyt, dan dat waard
anst??nnig "platen", dan faart-redden!!

Prioriteyt 2: Gou(d)e, tiidlause, nauhaltigen verwendbare Nigsch??ppenge
maaken.)
-----

Leyw Marlou, hey Liigl??nners,

wat Marlou daar schriewen heft, is mi uut dem herte spruoken!

Daar bruuk ik eygentlik niks wiider to seggen. Ik mag aawerst wual na wat
drupsetten:

 W??rter wie "Huulbessen" sind eine echte Bereicherung, und Platt ist klasse
> darin, Abstraktes durch Griffiges zu ersetzen; aber man darf es nicht darauf
> festnageln.
>

Recht sau. "Huulbessen" w????re man as ??Heulbesen?? auk 'ne beriikernge van'm
Haugd????dsken. Annersiits: ??Staubsauger?? is auk gawwe in plat to ????wersetten:
??Staub?? is ??staf|stof|stoff?? un ???Sauger" is ??suuger??, saumet is ??stafsuuger??
auk gouet plat daarfor (vgl. SASS-W??rterbuch: Stoffsuger).

 Et gift L????e, de verlanget van platd????dsk, for allens en "eegen" Ward to
> hebben, s??ss sii et ??nich echt??. Dat geyt sau wiit, dat me as
> platd????dsksnackerske nich "Auto" seggen draf, dan dat is je nich plat.
> Am??santerwiis haulen d??sse minsken dat waard "Auto" for Haugd????dsk.
>

Jau, jau, ???kraftwaagen, kraftfaart????g" heft sik nich mal in Haugd????dsk
d??rsetten lauten, trots amtlike f??dderunge (iuut inner [afseyn vanner]
amtssprauke).

 F??r socke L????e is plat nat????rlik eyne muusedaude sprauke, nich mal mangels
> spri??kern, s??nnern d??r e??re verstickende prinziipiggen.
>

Ik gl??uwe, dat hat met borneerter (engst??rnige) kleyn- un speetb??rgerligheyt
un autorit??ren charakter to doun. Dat sind de s??lwigen l????e, de en grout
geschregge anfanget, wan ichtenswel up Haugd????dsk wat en bietken anners segt
of schrift, un sii dat en inflochtenet platwaard.

Algemeyn segt, is dat al en teyken / symptom daarvan, dat platd????dsk nine
??mmegankssprauke mehr is, un van den platfr??nden meystig blaut as 'ne
museale, allenfals folkloristiske saake bedrachtet werd.

Met sprauken odder tungensli??gen, de na lebennig sind un spruaken werden
(auk waar de amtssprauke wat annert is), hewwet de daare l????e d??sse
sw??rlichheyten nich. Miin spitten-biispell is daar j??mmer dat
Swiitserd????dsk, vor allem dat "Z??rit????tsch". Et is vanner struktuur en heyl
aulde sprauke (en dialekt van Middelhaug-/Fr????-nighaugd????dsk). Man daarinne
- jau, met h??lpe van nigbeldenge un fr????md-w????rden - k????nt se ????wer allens
kommuniseeren, of anner uni, of inner disko.

Aawers: de gruntlaage daarvan is liikers de vull uutbellede ??haugsprauke??,
nich in sinne van haug un plat, man van (aulde) schriftsprauke, auk st??tske
sprauke van den belleden un b??rgeren, wat dat middelhaugd????dske was.

Un daaar??mme miin lesder punt, den ik drupsetten wil:

Wan wi en platd????dsk willet, dat  "auk ????wer abstraktet redden (l????ren)"
sol, dan m??etet wi nich blaut den waardschat van de platd????dske wiruchte
(wirgeburt, renaissance) van 18./19. jhdt., man auk de vull entwickelden
fuormen un begriepe  des

saun??umeden "middelnidderd????tsk" van de hansetiid

in blick niemen un bruuken. "Mnd." is blaut tiidlik richtig, as analogii to
Mhd., man et kennteeknet im prinsiip een un de s??lwige sprauke as vandaage:
sassesk, platd????dsk (in'm ??nnerscheyd to aultsassesk). Dan et heft ninen
spraukwannel in Sassesk=Plat giewen, de met de nighaugd????tske
vokalverschuuwenge vergliikbar w??re.

Met annern w????rden:

Wi mi??tet en ??platd????dske haugsprauke?? to stanne bringen, wan plat for
moderne minsken bruukbar werden sol. Ik fiine, dat du, Marlou, met diine
websiiden daar al voruut geyst!

Man frauget mi nich, wo dat "hauge plat" inf????rt werden kan ... ;-)

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??g => Berlin-Pankow

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/f81287c0/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 20:26:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:26:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.132644.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Antero Helasvuo <antero.helasvuo at welho.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (02) [EN]

Lowlands-L List kirjoitti:
>
>
> From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com <mailto:
> luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>>
> Subject: LL-L "Resources"
>
> Dear all,
>
> Those of you interested in Antwerp dialect may find this blog interesting:
>
> http://aentwaereps.blogspot.com/
>

Dear Luc (and everybody),

Thanks a milloin for this great link, especially, because there is a nice
piece about the great poet and performer Wannes van de Velde, whom I had the
honor of knowing in the late sixties. Only recently I learned that he passed
away last November after a long struggle against leukemia. Those who are
interested in his oeuvre and the Antwerp dialect should check out another
site http://www.antwerps.be/  You may not like everything you see and hear
there, but among the gems are songs by Wannes all the way from his earliest
recordings, like the famous "Pieter Breughel in Brussel", up to
"Oorlogsgeleerden", a version of Bob Dylan's "The Masters of War" sung by
Wannes and Roland Van Campenhoud; plus lots of his lyrics. Wannes was a
carrier of his heritage pure and noble and therefore a breaker of barriers
and a gift for the whole mankind.

Hartelijke groet

Antero

-- 
Antero Helasvuo
Luutnantinpolku 9 C 20
00410 HELSINKI
FINLAND

TEL +358 9 5872345
antero.helasvuo at welho.com

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/2458b3b9/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 22:43:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:43:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (08) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.154353.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language construction" 2009.06.15 (07) [DE-EN]

Salve, Lowlanders,

in addition to Marlou's thoughts on the modernization of Low Saxon under
"LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]" and my consenting reaction("LL-L
"Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (06) [DE-NDS]" I'm going to tell you, that also my
Westphalian friend Olaf Bordasch has posted remarkable thoughts on that
matter on his website. He comes also to the result (that he tould me already
some time ago), that, for the survival of Low Saxon, we need a kind of
written (high) language, a

??written Saxon language??, tying up to the written Low German language of the
16th and 17th century. "It should not be written phonetically but cover up
and tide over the dialectical differences, instead of underlining them."

At the end of his webpage http://www.plattdeutsch-niederdeutsch.net/
sprachgeschi chte.htm
- under the heading "Die Zukunft des Niederdeutschen" he writes inter alia:

"Die gute Nachricht ist, dass der Anteil derer, die in Umfragen m????ige
aktive Kenntnisse des Niederdeutschen angeben, viel langsamer sinkt. Im
Allgemeinen wird es sich dabei um Leute handeln, die das Niederdeutsche erst
sp??ter gelernt haben. Die Verbreitung von W??rterb??chern, Grammatiken,
niederdeutscher Literatur u.s.w. ist offensichtlich nicht ohne Wirkung
geblieben. ??brigens lehrt das Beispiel Irlands auch, dass es durchaus
m??glich ist ein gesellschaftliches Klima herbeizuf??hren, in der die Menschen
sich wieder der Minderheitensprache zuwenden und diese auch aktiv
gebrauchen. (In Irland sind dies etwa 15% der Bev??lkerung.)
Dazu bedarf es allerdings einer geschriebenen Hochsprache, in der sich z.B.
auch wissenschaftliche Literatur verfassen l??sst. Nun gibt es in
Norddeutschland tats??chlich Ans??tze, einige der bestehenden Kulturdialekte
zu Hochsprachen auszubauen. Das wird aber nicht funktionieren, denn Sprecher
aus anderen Regionen werden niemals eine fremde Mundart akzeptieren. Ein
Dialekt bleibt ein Dialekt. Die regelm????ig zu beobachtenden
Meinungsverschiedenheiten zwischen Sprechern aus verschiedenen Regionen
hinsichtlich der anzuwendenden Schreibweise sind letztlich Folge der
inad??quaten am Hochdeutschen orientierten Schreibung.

Eine Erfolg versprechende M??glichkeit k??nnte die Entwicklung einer
Schreibsprache Sassisch nach dem Vorbild der fr??hneuniederdeutschen
Schriftsprache des 16. und 17. Jhs. sein. Solch eine Schriftsprache d??rfte
nicht phonetisch geschrieben werden, sie m??sste die Dialektunterschiede
zudecken und ??berbr??cken, anstelle sie zu betonen."

Goutgaun!

joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??g => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks for sharing your interesting thoughts and findings, Joachim.

Fundamental to this issue, I think, are the attitudes people have to Low
Saxon. Let me try a basic classification pertaining to the situation in
Northern Germany:

   - Those that despite regional language status see Low Saxon as a dialect
   group (*Mundartgruppe*) of German, thus as subordinate to German:
   "Dialects are essentially irrelevant. Let people talk properly (in
   Standard German) if they want to be able to talk about anything needed
   nowadays!"
   (Klaus Groth summarizing this attitude: "De Kinner lehrt al in de Schol:
   | Dat weer so grof, so rog, | Pa?? h??chstens in???e K??k bi???n Kohl | Un achter
   Putt un Plog.")

   - Those that may recognize Low Saxon as a language in its own right but
   one which is on its way out, should be left alone to die or maybe mummified
   and displayed in a museum:
   "You simply can not talk about just anything in this language. Enjoy it
   with its limitations while it's still hear. Don't try to make it what it is
   not!"

   - Those that believe that Low Saxon might survive as a jumple of dialects
   only, promoted by local organizations that do or do not collabirate, without
   any sort or standardization being promoted or attempted:
   "No language engineering and planning please! We like the diversity and
   fragmentation in which local kahunas have their say. We want promoters of
   unification excluded, because we don't trust them, believe they want to do
   away with dialect diversity and instead create a single standard variety.
   *Our* dialect is so special, so different, so illusive that no one can
   really understand it, let alone make any sort of standard writing system
   apply to it."

   - Those that want the language to survive and believe this can only be
   accomplished by unification and standardization:
   "Centuries of exclusion and neglect have been confining the language to
   limited contexts. It needs to catch up to remain viable, although the means
   of doing so are still being debated. Dialect diversity needs not suffer
   because of creating a unified, cross-dialect writing system, even though
   opponents claim it will kill diversity. Most speakers can understand one
   another across dialect boundaries when they speak. Diverse "phonetic"
   spelling emphasizes the boundaries."

Incentives to update the lexicon thus depend on one's basic attitude. Some
believe it should not be done at all, and ways and means are still debatable
among those that do approve of it. There is no need to discuss tthe ways and
means with folks that are opposed to it to begin with.

Lexical development takes numerous forms, and it tends to occur naturally if
allowed to occur.

Neologisms (new words and expressions) fall into two categories:

   1. loanwords
      1. phonologically adapted importations
      2. calques (i.e. translated loanwords)
      2. language-internal creations

Most languages have a mixture of all these. Most of them enter the language
gradually. Once they are considered established and generally accepted they
become official. That's when they are included in dictionaries, for
instance, also when they are used in official education if the language is
used in that capacity.
New words and expressions tend to stand a chance of making it by way of
usage within large communities. Very often this happens through literature.
Go back to older literature in most languages and you'll find implicitly
proposed neologisms that never made to to the stage of general acceptance.
Some of them did make it.

Again, please look at the case of Neo-Norwegian (*nynorsk*). There is only a
loose standard that is being constantly fed by relevant dialects and is also
not immune to influences of the majority Dano-Norwegian (*bokm??l*) language.
The dialect provenance of spoken and written Neo-Norwegian is in most cases
obvious to listeners and speakers. But this is only possible because there
is a single writing system that accommodates all relevant dialects. In this
interdialectal communication, words and expressions may be borrowed across
dialect boundaries and may attain some sort of inter-dialectical status.

As for Low Saxon neologisms such as *Huulbessen* ("howl broom" = 'vacuum
cleaner'), *Puuschenkino* ("slipper cinema" = 'television') and
*Kl??nkassen*("chat box" = 'telephone'), they seem to have started as
what you might want
to call "nicknames" (much like "boob tube" for "television" in English). Low
Saxon speakers love this sort of thing. Personally I am not opposed to such
words becoming "official". I find it no less acceptable than the possible
German calque **Stuuvsuger* (< *Staubsauger* "dust sucker") 'vacuum
cleaner'.

That's my 1.34 Euro's worth.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: The web servers are on which all LL-L pages are crashed due to a power
outage and have been down for hours now. Grrrrrr ...

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/0b035e8a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 00:37:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:37:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (09) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.173757.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (08) [DE-EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> I find it no less acceptable than the possible German calque */Stuuvsuger/
> (< /Staubsauger/ "dust sucker") 'vacuum cleaner'.
>

Is villicht nu ok blot wedder en Saak von Dialekt, aver heet Stuuvsuger nich
ehrder "Stubensauger"? 'Staub' is doch 'Stoff' (mnd. 'stoff' oder 'st??f').
(Wobi 'Stuuv' ok wedder bi dat Hoochd????tsche utlehnt is, ans dee dat 'Stoov'
heten, seggt mien W????rbook).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Nee, nee, Marcus. Recht hest du.

Haha! Da' 's 'n Ding! Ik wull Spaa?? daar ??ver maken, wiel dat ik wen kenn,
de dat seggt. Un amenn s?? 'k dat s??lmst ... ;-)

Nu, ja ... "Hein, suug' maal gau de Stuuv'!" geiht je ook, ne?

Gr??tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: The servers are finally back up, and our Lowlands-L pages are
accessible again. About time, too.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/de40ff87/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 04:59:36 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:59:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (10) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUN.2009.215936.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 10
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear friends,

I wrote yesterday:

Leve L????d',
Nu heff ik mien Klaus-Groth-Sieten up Schick br??cht un ??hr ook 'n b??ten wat
upfladuust. Kiekt jo ??hr maal an!

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/

Folks,
I've renovated and redecorated my Klaus Groth presentation. Please take a
look!

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/

People started to visit the renovated site pretty much right away. In the
meantime, the servers went down and stayed down for hours. I apologize for
the inconvenience if you tried to visit this or other Lowlands sites
unsuccessfully.

Now that this and other presentation are accessible again, please visit it6
and give me your opinions if you have any.

Please note the following:

   - The old version of the presentation has been linked to from a number of
   sites and received an increasing number of visitors when I decided to
   renovate it.
   - Many of the pages have sound files, and I plan to add more of those,
   including slow and clear readings of the poems.
   - The Low Saxon versions of the poems have "hover reveal" of German
   glosses. Just place your cursor on any word, and you'll see the German
   equivalent(s).
   - In the left-hand menu, please rest your cursor on any of the poem
   titles/links to reveal the titles of my English translations.
   - I plan to add further poems and songs.
   - I don't claim that this is top world literature. Groth is considered
   the father of the Low Saxon reawakening in Germany, and he inspired many in
   the Netherlands and Belgium as well. He was a true Lowlander. His works
   remain popular at least among seniors in Northern Germany.

Enjoy (if that's the right word)!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090615/18cfc437/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 14:36:56 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:36:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.073656.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paddy Van Raepenbusch <paddy.vanraepenbusch at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Greeting!

First of all, I must tell you that I am just a neophyte when it comes
to linguistic issues!
My interest stems from my genealogical research in the origin of my
family name: Van Raepenbusch.
My earliest origin were traced back around the 1640 in
Roeselare/Brugge ( now Belgium)
Spelling variations found are: Vanraepenbusch, Vanrapenbusch (french
flanders) or simply Raepenbusch.

The origin of the name is most likely topographic where the "van" meant
"from".
Dr. Frans Debrabandere???s  ???Dictionary of the Surnames in Belgium and
North France???, gives some suggestions of placename such as Rapenbos,
Rapenburg (Raepenburg),Rapenbusch-Bosschen...etc

I did found in an old map:???Flandriae Comitatus Pars Septentrionalis???
by N. Visscher ( abt. 1698), two references:
Rapenborg near today's town of Maldegem and
An estate called "Rapenburg" which according to historian, was a
freehold under the Ouburg of Ghent (13th century), today there is a
"Raepenburg" farm in that location (near Zomergem) where the remain of
a moat which surrounded the farm is still visible.
ref:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~noemeetjesland/meetjesland/zomergem.htm<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7Enoemeetjesland/meetjesland/zomergem.htm>

On another ancient map, the name is written Rupenburg with a windmill
at that location (map: ???Carte du Comte??? de Flandre???  1704 by
Guillaume de L???Isle)

So much for historical references!

I have basically two questions:
1) The suffixes of my surname today being "-busch", could it have been
originally "-burg". Is this an "acceptable" hypothesis?

2) The origin of "raepen" still buggle my mind. In today's
interpretation it is often referred as a beet ( navet in french).
According to Killian???s ???Etymologicum TeuTonicae Linguae??? (1599), , the
word "raepen" relates to grab, take, gather...etc and by extension to
"thief" whereas in the  ?? Le grand dictionnaire francois et flamand ??
by Pierre Richelet (1739), both interpretations are given, i.e. the
beet (navet) and to gather as in "Uyt alles kan men vruchten raepen".
Another interesting "dual" interpretation can be seen in a famous 17th
century painting by a Dutch Artist, Adriaen van de Venne (1589-1662) ,
???'Elck is om Raepen uit' (Dutch proverb: Everybody looks after their
own share) which depicts farmers gathering beets!
So what would be the most plausible interpretation on the origin of my
surname?

Thank you in advance for your help

--
Best Regards
Paddy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Paddy!

Welcome to the speakers' corner!

It seems to me that the old *raepen* you're talking about is the cognate of
English "to reap".

The *raepen* in Raepenbusch seems to be a noun in the plural, though.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/45f51f50/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 14:39:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:39:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.16 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.073947.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.15 (07) [EN]

RE: Antero and Luc on http://aentwaereps.blogspot.com/ and
http://www.antwerps.be/

  Nice catches, I've been reading the first one occasionally too, and his
dialect is of a very pure and old-fashioned style, but his way of writing it
has many shortcomings, like inserting all the sandhi-sounds between tzo
words: "Dat is echt niet erg", in mine and antwerps.be-style "Dad is echt ni
aerg" would be written "Da d is z echt ni j aereg"; whereas both would lead
to the same pronunciation (by different rules), the last one is a lot harder
to rea dand contains way too many innecessary letters. But I noticed
oftenwhile that older speakers want to write every single detail in
phonetic-like dutch spelling, whereas the younger generation like me and
Filip Camerman from antwerps.be want to create a modern spelling in more
acceptable Dutch style but with assuming pronunciation rules that make the
smaller details clearer and will lead to a correct pronunciation anyway.
It's not because the long ee is pronounced more like ????j or ei that you
can't write it ee like in Dutch - but older speakers are horrified by this
and see it as a decay, and think it hould be written ei or ????j.

However I don't fully agree with the spelling proposed on antwerps.be, and
me and Filip have a lot of discussions on the forums.
 but both are still a very useful source to recommend

Diederik

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/30fa4f5f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 14:46:39 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:46:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.074639.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.15 (01) [DE-EN]

>From Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Ron/Reinhard wrote:  So, "ish" *has* become a word, at least in casual
speech in a certain region! I think it was merely a matter of time. I have
occasionally resisted the urge of saying "ish" myself while making a hand
movement like that. It seems so natural and tempting!

 Another 'joke' reply, such as 'ish', which has become entirely accepted
without a glance back to its colloquial origins is 'when'

As in when someone is pouring a drink and they ask the person for whom it is
being poured : "Say when" i.e. when I should stop pouring. And that person
replies 'When!"

I remember back in the 50s people laughing at this as a joke reply : now it
is the accepted reply!

In the same league  when someone said " I 'm hungry ( or thirsty or tired
etc) "  one replied "Oh really I thought you were Pauline ( or Robert or
Fred whatever name they had).

I think 'ish' is pretty widespread now. You can hear it on TV and radio
without need for any reaction or lack of comprehension to be written into
the script. One person who uses it a lot is Stephen Fry on QI and that would
be reason enough for it to be spread and accepted.

It even gets used where there is no original adjective to have added 'ish'
to!

"Are you feeling better?"  "Ish" where it clearly means  "Not entirely"

Heather

Worcester UK

whose roses took a battering from a hail storm last night and whose house
was flooded ( a bit) by the rising waters of the flash flood that followed!
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Heather!

Thanks for the update on "ish".

"Are you feeling better?"  "Ish" where it clearly means  "Not entirely"

This confirms the development I tried to predict.

The "when" thing is current all over the English-speaking world, by the way.

Regards,
Reinhad/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: I hope you'll soon have dry feet again. We're in for some rain here
later this week, after a long spell of splendid summer weather.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/61187032/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 14:51:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:51:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.16 (04) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.075140.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.12 (06) [DE]

Hannelore Hinz  wrote:
Danke Reinhard,

gro??es Kompliment! Alle japanischen Schriftzeichen stimmen ??berein mit dem
ver??ffentlichten Titelblatt (BAND 7, Seite 24) des Watanabe'schen Werkes
"Inf??hrung in't Plattd????tsch". Ich hatte dieses Blatt vorher gescannt, aber
das sehr grobe Raster schlug durch. (Schlechte Papier- und Druckqualit??t.)
In BAND 7  ist auch Reuters Eikboomlied: plattdeutsch-japanisch (aus
Watanabe: Inf??hrung in't Plattd????tsch) ver??ffentlicht. (Auch hier leider
schlechte Druckqualit??t.)

Mien best' Gr??uten.
Hanne

 "Eikboom" ??bersetzt ins Japanisch von Prof. K. Watanabe???

????????? ???????????????????????????

?????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

weiter,,,,,,

Ick weit einen Eikboom, de steiht an de See,
De Nurdstorm, de bruust in sin Kn??st;
Stolt reckt hei de m??chtige Krone in de H??h,
So is dat al dusend Jahr west,
Kein Minschenhand, de hett em plan't;
Hei reckt sik von Pommern bet Nedderland.

weiter......

Hartlich Greuten,

Yasuji,ut Japan

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Personalia" 2009.06.15 (03) [DE]

Lieber Yasuji und lieber Ron,

ich habe mich sehr ??ber die Nachricht aus Japan gefreut. Nun will ich gerne
die vollst??ndige Liste *Ver??ffentlichungen von Kakuji Watanabe*
hier mitteilen.
Zuvor noch hinzuf??gen, da?? auch ich die erw??hnte Fernsehsendung sah.
Allerdings im sogenannten *schwarzen Kanal. *Ich wohnte damals in einem
anderen Hochhaus in der 10. Etage Westseite. Ich brauchte keine Antenne, nur
meinen Daumen in die g??nstigste Empfangsrichtung halten und Pst. nicht zu
laut einstellen...
In Ratzeburg, Haus Mecklenburg rezitierte Watanabe Gedichte von F. Reuter.
Dort h??ngt auch ein gro??es Foto in einem bestimmten Raum (Saal), auf dem der
japanische Meister zu sehen ist. Es ist ein s/w-Foto. Ich habe es mir immer
angeschaut, wenn hier hier auftreten durfte.

Hier nun die Liste (welch' gro??e Leistung dieses Mannes, nicht zu fassen)

Fougue: Undine (??bersetzungen) 1929 Ikubundo-Verlag
Deutsche Etymologie (wiss. Aufsatz) 1935 Daigakushorin
H??lderlin: Hyperion (??bersetzungen) 1936 Iwanami-Verlag
Plattdeutsche Literatur und Fritz Reuter (Essay) 1938 "Deutsche Literatur"
Reuter: Franzosentid (??bersetzung) 1939 Hakasuisha-Verlag
Das Leben von H??lderlin (Buch) 1940 Kobundo-Verlag
Konstruktion der Franzosentid 1940 "Deutsche Literatur"
Charakteristik Fritz Reuters 1940 "Goethe-Jahrbuch"
Novalis: Fragmente (??bersetzung) 1941 Iwanami-Verlag
Weltanschauung Fritz Reuters (Essay) 1941 "Deutsche Literatur"
Schiller: Geschichte des 30j??hrigen Krieges (??bersetzung) 1943
Iwanami-Verlag
Plattdeutsche Grammatik (Buch) 1943 Daigakushorin-Verlag
Bielschowski: Goethe 1  1943 Morikita-Verlag
Vaterlandsgef??hl Fritz Reuters (Essay) 1943 "Deutsche Literatur"
Plattdeutscher Dichter Reuter 1943 Deutsches Jahrbuch
Deutsche Wortbildungslehr (Buch) 1943 Daigakushorin
Bielschowski: Goethe 2 1946 Fuji-Verlag
Storms Novellen (??bersetzung) 1943 Yashiro-Verlag
Goethe: Werthers Leiden  1947 Fuji-Verlag
Goethes Singspiele (Essay) 1947 Universit??tszeitung
Goethe: R??mische Elegien (??bersetzung)  1948 Zeitschrift Ningen
Goethe: Claudine (??bersetzung) 1948 Meiso-Verlag
Goethe: Theatralische Sendung (??bersetzung) 1948 Daimaru-Verlag
Goethes idealistische Gesellschaft (Essay) 1948 Jiyu-Bunka
Hebbels Novellen 1948 Baba-Verlag
Goethe: Trilogie der Leidenschaft 1949 Kodansha-Verlag
Goethe: R??mische Elegien 1949 Kodansha-Verlag
Goethes Religion (Essay)  1949 Kodansha-Verlag
Goethes ewige Jugend (Essay) 1949 Moderne Literatur
Deutsche Literatur im 18. und 19. Jahrhundert (Essay) 1950 Dohyo-Zeitschrift
Fritz Reuter: Festungstid (??bersetzung)                           1950 . . .
Phonetische Studien des Reuters Plattdeutsch (Essay) 1952
Universit??tszeitschrift
Vergleichende Literaturgeschichte im 19. Jahrhundert (Essay) (in Buchform)
1953 Daisan-Verlag
Franz Kafke: Amerika (??bersetzung) 1954 Shinchosha-Verlag
Fritz Reuter 1. (Essay) 1954 Universit??tszeitschrift
Franz Kafkas Bild (Essay) 1954 "Deutsche Literatur"
Eduard M??rike (Essay) 1954 Daisan-Verlag
Fritz Reuter 2. (Essay)  1955 Universit??tszeitschrift
??ber Fritz Reuter (Essay) 1955 "Deutsche Literatur"
Gro??e Deutsche Grammatik 1956 Sanshusha-Verlag
Inf??hrung in't Plattd????tsch 1959 Daigakushorin-Verlag
Mecklenburgisch - Fritz Reuters Grammatik (noch nicht ver??ffentlicht)
Sanshusha-Verlag
Fritz Reuters Leben und Werke (1200 Druckseiten)      Selbstverlag
Fritz Reuters dichtungen (etwa 40 Druckseiten)  1960
Japanische Meister der Erz??hlung  1960 Verlag Walter Dorn (jetzt im Verlag
Dorn)
(??bersetzung von jalanischen Dreizeiler-Gedichten)
Romantrilogie der Leidenschaft von Yoichi Nakagawa
(??bersetzung von japanischen Romanen)

 Was k??nnen wir und sein Heimatland heute noch von Kakuji Watanabe
weitergeben, das m????te sich doch immer  lohnen!

Herzliche Gr????e.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/97cb9c9b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 17:19:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:19:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2009.06.16 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.101920.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

Recently I learned a "new" word that is becoming current among people with
an interest in language politics and specifically in minority language
issues:



*vergonha*


It is pronounced [ver'g??????] (roughly "vehr-GOO-nyaw").

It is an Occitan word literally meaning "(feeling of) shame". "shyness" or
"embarrassment" (cf. Catalan *vergonya*, Galician *vergo??a*, Castilian *
verg??enza*, Portuguese *vergonha*, Sardinian *berg??gna**, *Italian *vergogna
*, Latin *verecundia*).

Within the mentioned contexts this Occitan word *vergonha* denotes the
results of conditions under which speakers are made to feel ashamed of their
own language, typically a non-recognized minority language. As we have
discussed on earlier occasions, this often leads to such speakers
considering their own language inferior, and this attitude prevents them
from using the language in public and from passing it on to their offspring.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/af0e7401/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 19:18:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:18:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16 (06) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.121828.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16 (01) [EN]

Hey Paddy (van Raepenbusch),
 Indeed 'raap' is the modern Dutch word for turnip, Latin name 'Brassica
rapa'. In Amsterdam we also have a street name "Rapenburg", so I thought I'd
try to find the etymology on that one as it could be related to your story.
Bu googling for that I actually found a reference to the Flemish one as you
mentioned:

*Vanaf de Stuiver liep hij immers rechtlijnig door via het Sompelstraatje
(tot na de tweede wereldoorlog nog in gebruik) langsheen het Goed te
Zoetendale (nu F. Standaert) tot aan het Hof Rapenburg (Bos, E. Verschelde)
om, de grensstraat Waarschoot-Zomergem volgend, verderop de hierboven
aangehaalde aansluiting te verwezenlijken. In het landboek van 1798 werd hij
aangeduid als de ???Eekloosche voetweg???, wellicht de oudste verbinding tussen
Eeklo en Gent. In de atlas van de buurtwegen van 1841 werd hij evenwel niet
opgenomen, theoretisch toen reeds afgeschaft zijnde.*
**
There also seems to be a street called Rapenburg in Leiden in Holland.

Amsterdam Rapenburg:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapenburg_(Amsterdam<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapenburg_%28Amsterdam>
)
 Leiden Rapenburg:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapenburg_(gracht<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapenburg_%28gracht>)


The wiki article says the origin of both names is unknown. I hope you can
read Dutch btw;-)

Cheers,
Diederik

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/4626a501/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 21:48:45 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:48:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.16 (07) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.144845.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]

Vielen Dank, liebe Elsie,

unser Co-Founder and Chief Editor *Ron *hat Recht, da?? es keine h????liche
Sprache auf der Welt gibt. 'Dreschmaschine' auf Afrikaans 'dorsmasjien'
klingt auch sch??n, und ich habe es nicht mit dem Wort 'durst' in Verbindung
gebracht. Wenn ich Durst habe, heff ick D??st, odder ick b??n d??stig.
Dreschen, also Nd. d??schen, das hei??t K??rner aus den ??hren  schlagen. *Syn *
bachern

Gru??.
Hannelore

Un nu b??st du an,
leiw' Marlou,

ich heff dat all ahnt, du warst di glieksen k??nnigmaken. Dien Bidrag is
bannig gaut un hett v??l tau bed??den.
Hm, "...Was Hochdeutsch darf, darf Platt noch lange nicht. Hochdeutsch darf
Fremdw??rter aufnehmen, sich zu eigen machen,  aber in Platt wird das
kritisiert, "das passt nicht ", usw..  Da mu?? ich widersprechen. Wir Autoren
wurden immer dahingehend orientiert, Fremdw??rter zu ??bernehmen, wenn sie
absolut nicht in anderer Form zu deuten waren oder man keine bildhafte
Umsetzung fand. Aber m.E. damit sparsam umgehen.
Upstunns (auf die Stunde) kam mir der Gedanke, wie hat denn Fritz Reuter in
seinem Buch "Ut de Franzosentid" und ??berhaupt Fremdw??rter vermittelt. Er
hat die Sache bannig *swienplietsch, originell, auch humorvoll *bew??ltigt.
Na ja, damals. Hier einige Beispiele:
Pampuschen: Weiche Hausschuhe von frz. babouche;
Pankrott : Bankerott
Fl??utduhs : sanfte Fl??te, vom franz. flute douce, Klarinette, (dieses  ??`
Zeichen ??ber dem u bei flute kann ich nicht drucken, habe keinen Zugang zu
Sonderzeichen).
Ut de Franzosentid:
Tikzionn??hr von Pochen - (frz. dictionaire de poche) Taschenw??rterbuch.
d?? W??ng - (Frz. du vin) Wein.
Ich lese gerade, ein Herr Droz war auch eine Zeitlang Reuters Privatlehrer
im Franz??sischen.
la grang Nationg - (frz. la grande nation) die gro??e Nation (Frankreich).

Wahrscheinlich hatte Reuter vermutlich einen Hang zur Lautschrift.

l?? grang Amper??r - (frz. le grand Empereur) der gro??e Kaiser (Napoleon).
Mu??i?? l?? Balljif - (frz. Monsieur le Bailli) Herr Amtmann.
Pl??h t'i? - (frz. plait-il? ??` ) Wie beliebt? Hier: Ist es gef??llig?
Patriotten : Patrioten
Puhl - (frz. poules) H??hner.
Gardinennkutsch - (frz. couche "Bett") Himmelbett.
Und so weiter setzt sich dieses fort.

Saftige Wortneusch??pfungen ja, so denke ich auch. aber bildhaft und mit
Haltung.

Uns' Wossidlo hett mal seggt, uns' Volk wier 'nen Dichter un Maler taugliek.
Nat??rlich: Biller brukt dei hochd??tsche Schriftsprak ok heil v??l ,ja, ahn
Biller kann 'ne Sprak oewerhaupt nich farrig  warden, wenn sei wat utdr??cken
will, wat ut'n Verstand orre Gef??uhl ruter k??mmt. Oewer wi Hochd??tschen, wi
denken uns dor nicks mehr bi, wenn wi in'n Bild r??den daun. Dat Volk will
sick bi allens, wat dat seggt, ok wat denken, will alls d??tlich v??r Ogen
seihn. Dor??m kann dat mi dei Fr??mw??rd nich recht wat anfangen: ut Pedal makt
dat Perrdal, ut Thomasschlacke Trummelslag. Dei Akazie ward taun Afkatenbom,
un wenn 'n Dagl??hner in 'ne  Apteik f??r vier Schilling umgewendten Napolium
f??ddert, denn weit so 'n richtigen m??kelb??rger Pillendreiher, dat hei
unguentum Napolitanum hebben will.

Un wenn uns' Sprak noch lang' l??ben sall, ??mmer flietig snacken, snacken, un
??mmer wedder snacken un nienich upg??wen.

Wat hollt ji denn von Knoewelsappel (Handy) un von Duwwelmaker (Kopierer)?

Von Harten mien Gr??uten an alle Maaten.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/7bc99497/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 00:15:58 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:15:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.16 (08) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.16.JUN.2009.171558.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (06) [DE-NDS]

Leve Jonny,

fien, dat wi op een Bredd s??nd! Du hest Recht, wat solk Bispeeln as "Ick
hebb' f????r 'n Tempo??vertreden 'n Straofmandaot kreegen!" angeiht: sch????n is
dat nich. Ik much da avers noch geern dat een orr anner Hoor spalten :-)
Sch??ner weer, wat Du v??rsleist, orr t.B. ok: "Ik harr dat to hild, un da
hebbt s' mi opschreven." De ??nnerscheed is avers nich de tw??schen "Ticket"
un "Straofmandaot", s??nnern de tw??schen Verbalstil un Nominalstil. Platt
snackt mehr mit Verben, un dorwegen gellt dat ok allgemeen as entspannter,
minschlicher un is beter to verstahn. Man dat heet nu nich, dat dat keen
Woort f??r "Geschwindigkeits??berschreitung" geven mutt. Orr wat meenst Du?
Dat *k??mmt v??r*, dat een ok mal en Nomen bruken deit, un denn schull ok
Platt een praat hebben. Ik erinner good, wenn wi as Schoolkinner opfeddert
woorn, en Fr??mdwoort orr en Begriff to verklaarn, un anf??ngen mit "Also das
ist, wenn..." "Dasistwenn gibts nicht. Sag es in einem Hauptsatz!", woorn wi
korrigeert. (Naja, wi schulln nich graad de Afsietsfalle in'n Football
verklookfiedeln :-)) Wi woorn reinweg to'n Nominalstil beropen. Ik mutt
togeven, dat dat mennigmaal hulpen hett, dat Denken to kl??ren. Nominalstil
helpt (mi), de Begleit??mst??nn vun dat egentlich Meente to trennen. Man nee,
ik will hier nich dat Loff vun't Beamtend????tsch singen, ??m nix in de Welt!
Verbalstil is j??mmers beter -- wenn dat geiht. Man wat, wenn dat mal nich
geiht? Schall Platt mit "Das ist, wenn..." ankamen? Ik denk, 'neem dat wat
Exaktes to beteken gifft, schull dat ok m????glich ween. In Gesettb??kers, in
juristische Schriften etwa. Orr wenn een partu Distanz hollen will in en
Konversaschoon orr Schriftwessel. (Distanzhollen is verl????vt op Platt, ja?) De
langen tosamensetten Nomina vun't Hoochd????tsche ("*
Frequenzbereichszuweisungsplanverordnung"*) kannst ok uteneenpusseln in
st??ckerwat mehr Nomina, de een denn mit "vun" un "mit" verkeden deit, as
mennig anner Spraken dat doot. Man ik much dat nich good lieden, wenn Platt
in bestimmte Situaschoonen h??lplos dorst??nn. Du versteihst wiss, wat ik
meen. Wat meenst Du?

Hartlich

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]
Beste Marlou,

Diin Biidrag hett mi allerbest touseggt!

Du schreyvst:

Die Suche nach einem pd. ??quivalent f??r "Computer" hat schon mehrere
erfreuliche Vorschl??ge gezeitigt, aber dennoch finde ich es v??llig legitim,
auch in pd. Texten Computer "Computer" zu nennen. Vorsicht: Das Finden von
"anschaulichen", "griffigen" ??quivalenten kann die Sprache auch in die
Humor-Ecke zur??ckdr??ngen, aus der sie sich sowieso nur zaghaft raustraut!

Un' denn is door ouk noch anners watt. De d????tsche Minsch kann heel best mit
de "Beh??rden-Spraok" ??mgoahn, un' denn kaomt doar wat bii 'ruut as (Fehrs):
"Ick hebb' f????r 'n Tempo??vertreden 'n Straofmandaot kreegen!" Greesig! Kunn
'n wii nich bii Platt bliiven un' seggen "Ick b??n tou hatt/hard foyhrt, un'
doar kreyg ick 'n (ingelsch) Ticket f????r!"? Sou waard hier denn woll snackt.
"In der K??rze liegt die (plattdeutsche) W??rze!"

Un' denn - schinnerhaftig tohoup-set'te W????r as *"**
Frequenzbereichszuweisungsplanverordnung**"* (dat Woord givvt dat
waorhavvtig!!!;* *denkt maol an dennen dusseligen
"Iisenbohn...dreyer"!!)* *passt
amenn' nich mang uns Spraok - dat laot 'troust de houghd????tschen Amtsl????d
maoken, in Br??ssel edders in Berlin of Hanouber.

Bii Fehrs' jemmer List' van Neologismen kriig ick faoken dat Schuddern...

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (06) [DE-NDS]

Leve Joachim,

Din V??rslag smitt f??r mi en Barg Fragen op (wat ja nich dat Leegste is, wat
so'n V??rslag doon kann). Wenn wi Platt as vullwertige ??mgangsspraak f??r all
Levensberieken opbuun w??llt, seggst Du, schallt wi us dat Platt vun de
Hansetied to'n V??rbild nehmen. Ik welk Wies? Platt weer ??mgangs- un
Gesch??fftsspraak to de Tied, dat's wohr. Meenst Du dat mit dat V??rbild? Man
nee, Du snackst vun de "fuormen un begriepe". Ik much geern weten, wat Du
dormit meenst. Wat nau hett dat Platt vun dormalen, wat h????t brukt warrt?
Woans helpt us dat ??ver de H??rden weg, dat in't Platt vun vundaag t.B.
W????r/Utdr??ck f??r niege Saken un Ph??nomene fehlt? Kann us da nich ehrder dat
Nedderl??ndische wiederhelpen?

Wi mi??tet en ??platd????dske haugsprauke?? to stanne bringen, wan plat for
moderne minsken bruukbar werden sol.

Ik b??n geern dorbi! Man dat is en orrig grote Opgaav.

Ik fiine, dat du, Marlou, met diine websiiden daar al voruut geyst!

Upps?! Na da bill ik mi nu avers wat op in! ;-)

Hartlich!

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (03) [NDS]

Wan wi en platd????dsk willet, dat  "auk ????wer abstraktet redden (l????ren)"
sol, dan m??etet wi nich blaut den waardschat van de platd????dske wiruchte
(wirgeburt, renaissance) van 18./19. jhdt., man auk de vull entwickelden
fuormen un begriepe  des

saun??umeden "middelnidderd????tsk" van de hansetiid

in blick niemen un bruuken. "Mnd." is blaut tiidlik richtig, as analogii to
Mhd., man et kennteeknet im prinsiip een un de s??lwige sprauke as vandaage:
sassesk, platd????dsk (in'm ??nnerscheyd to aultsassesk). Dan et heft ninen
spraukwannel in Sassesk=Plat giewen, de met de nighaugd????tske
vokalverschuuwenge vergliikbar w??re.

Met annern w????rden:

Wi mi??tet en ??platd????dske haugsprauke?? to stanne bringen, wan plat for
moderne minsken bruukbar werden sol. Ik fiine, dat du, Marlou, met diine
websiiden daar al voruut geyst!

Man frauget mi nich, wo dat "hauge plat" inf????rt werden kan ... ;-)

Goutgaun!
joachim

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090616/cb76e179/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 14:20:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:20:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.072026.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.16 (07) [DE-NDS]

Leev Hanning,

dat s??nd wedder st??ckerwat Ideenstremels, de Du da antickst. Laat mal
kieken:

   1. Fr??mdw????r in Luden "plattmaken": Dat is en sch??ne Methood na dat Motto
   "Frechheit siegt". Dat fr??mde Woort warrt eenfach nahmen un an de
   Schrievwies un den Klang vun uns Spraak anpasst. Op't best bringt wi noch
   so'n lierl??ttjen Schisslaweng vun oginaal-plattd????tsche Bildhaftigkeit in,
   so as in "Portjuchee" orr "melankl??terig", denn hebbt wi 1 a plattd????tsche
   W????r.
   Geiht dat ok mit de Fr??mdw????r, de us h????t nieg begegent? As
   Noordd????tschland dormalen vun de Franzosen besett weer, is de Spraak vundaag
   vun't Ingelsche besett. Ik kunn mi good v??rstelln, dat "Team" eenfach as
   "Tiem" plattmaakt warrt. (Is ok k??tter as "Mannschap".) Vers??cht wi dat doch
   mal mit anner W????r, de vundaag ut dat Ingelsche op us tokamen doot!
   2. Bildhaftigkeit: Dat is nich bloots dat "eenfache Volk", dat sik geern
   wat bildhaftig v??rstelln deit; wi s??nd all dat eenfache Volk. De
   Minschenbregen is even so, wi muchen opleevst Biller sehn, denn k????nt wi us
   wat merken. Ok de Mnemonikers, de sik de Tall Pi op hunnert Stelln merken
   k????nt usw., ok de sett f??r elk Ziffer en Bild, en Gegenstand, un merkt sik
   denn dat. Ganz eenfache Tricks, bi all Minschen liek. En Bild maakt
   tofreden; wenn ik en Gegendstand seh, kann ik "begriepen". Wat weern wi in
   de Physik anduernd togang mit Billers; Atommodelle to'n Opmalen,
   Wirkungsquerschnitt = en Schiev ??m den Partikel r??m, Spin = da dreiht sik
   wat usw.; eentlich allens Unsinn, Spin is nix as en Quantentall, un een kann
   ganz afstrakt mi ??mgahn; avers dat Bild gifft en sekeres Gef??hl. Dat
   "Greifbare" an de "Begriffen" is en potentielle Starkde vun Platt! En eernst
   to nehmen Starkde, de ehr Potential noch nich ganz brukt warrt. (Pl??tt mal
   "Potential"!)
   3. Ganz bildhaftige W????r as "Knoewelsappel" f??r "Handy": Wohrschuug! In
   Nullkommanix seht de Mobiltelefone ganz anners ut. Nix mehr Knoewel, se s??nd
   lierl??tte, lichte Klappsappels -- orr Klickklappsappels, orr
   Knipskassenklickklappsappels... dat geiht in't Oog.
   4. W????r as "Duwwelmaker" f??r "Kopierer" s??nd min Favoriten. "Duwwelmaker"
   *is *bildhaft, wat de *Funkschoon *vun dat Ding angeiht, avers leggt sik
   nich fast vunwegen dat Butere; bi Technik is dat vundaag ja an't Fleten.

Ik wull noch mehr wat seggen, avers nu b??n ik to m????d. :-))

Hujahnige Gr??ten!

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.14 (03) [DE-NDS]

...
Wahrscheinlich hatte Reuter vermutlich einen Hang zur Lautschrift.

l?? grang Amper??r - (frz. le grand Empereur) der gro??e Kaiser (Napoleon).
Mu??i?? l?? Balljif - (frz. Monsieur le Bailli) Herr Amtmann.
Pl??h t'i? - (frz. plait-il? ??` ) Wie beliebt? Hier: Ist es gef??llig?
Patriotten : Patrioten
Puhl - (frz. poules) H??hner.
Gardinennkutsch - (frz. couche "Bett") Himmelbett.
Und so weiter setzt sich dieses fort.

Saftige Wortneusch??pfungen ja, so denke ich auch. aber bildhaft und mit
Haltung.

Uns' Wossidlo hett mal seggt, uns' Volk wier 'nen Dichter un Maler taugliek.
Nat??rlich: Biller brukt dei hochd??tsche Schriftsprak ok heil v??l ,ja, ahn
Biller kann 'ne Sprak oewerhaupt nich farrig  warden, wenn sei wat utdr??cken
will, wat ut'n Verstand orre Gef??uhl ruter k??mmt. Oewer wi Hochd??tschen, wi
denken uns dor nicks mehr bi, wenn wi in'n Bild r??den daun. Dat Volk will
sick bi allens, wat dat seggt, ok wat denken, will alls d??tlich v??r Ogen
seihn. Dor??m kann dat mi dei Fr??mw??rd nich recht wat anfangen: ut Pedal makt
dat Perrdal, ut Thomasschlacke Trummelslag. Dei Akazie ward taun Afkatenbom,
un wenn 'n Dagl??hner in 'ne  Apteik f??r vier Schilling umgewendten Napolium
f??ddert, denn weit so 'n richtigen m??kelb??rger Pillendreiher, dat hei
unguentum Napolitanum hebben will.

Un wenn uns' Sprak noch lang' l??ben sall, ??mmer flietig snacken, snacken, un
??mmer wedder snacken un nienich upg??wen.

Wat hollt ji denn von Knoewelsappel (Handy) un von Duwwelmaker (Kopierer)?

Von Harten mien Gr??uten an alle Maaten.

Hanne

----------

From: "Yasuji Waki" <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.13 (08) [EN]

Dear Friends,

I checked two German-Japanese Dictionaries which I am usually using. And I
found "resch". One of my dictionaries describes: resch ????????? ?????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Deutsche Uberstzung:
resch (adj) ( suddeutsch, osterreichsch) Brot fein(knuspring) gebacken,
(umgangssprachlich) knuspring(Maedchen)

Mit herzlichen Gruessen,

Yasuji Waki, uas Japan

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexikon" 2009.06.16 (08) [DE-NDS]

Leiw' Fr??nn'!
Ji makt mi dat tau dull,
denn' Kopp termaudbarsten ja,   (heftig nachdenken, Kopf zerbrechen)
oewer nich m??nnig Wuurt kollt oewer't Knei br??ken, dat k??mmt nich an un deit
weih.

Man kann doch W????r, de ick mi markt heff, ??mschriewen, un dat gellt f??r
Plattd????tsch.
- Tempo??vertreden (dat h??rt sick gruugelich an)
- Straofmandoot (schlimm)
- dat Denken to  -kl??ren- ?
- Begleit??mst??nn  (dat is Mischmasch)
- Beamtend????tsch
- Gesettb??kers
- partu Distanz, Distanzhollen verl??vt? Bi mi nich.
- verkeden (ji makt jug dat sworer, as't noedig is)
- h??lplos
- korrigeert
Mit disse W????r kann ick mi nich in mien' Plattd????tsch-Kring seihn laten.

Haben wir ??berhaupt den ganzen Reichtum dieser Sprache erkannt?

Hansetied as V??rbild ja, oewer kein tr??ggwarts gahn. Noch l??wt uns' Sprak,
dat m??t blieben, un wi m??ten bannig nahhelpen. Denn dat grote Drapen "10
Jahre Sprachen-Charta in Deutschland: Praxis und Perspektiven" l??tt Bang
upkamen. Bang, wolang uns Sprak noch uthollen kann. Un wi basteln an m??nnig
W????r r??m.
Wi m??ten scharp in taukamen Tieden kieken. Dat is binah all tau lat, later
as m??nnig denkt. Un ob de utklam??serten niegen W????r denn noch l??ben un
womoeglich all wedder anners heiten m??ten... dat sall mi mal verlangen.
Plattd????tsch Sprak is bannig afsackt, un wi m??ten tauierst wat f??r ehr
Wiererl??ben daun. Wenn ein oll Huus in sick sackt, wiel 'n tau wenig f??r ein
Utb??tern sorgt hett, wat m??ckt man denn...? Ja, so is dat. Uns Sprak is as
ein Dom, ein Wiespahl, un dor m??ten wi ansetten.
Wenn niemodsche Dichtersl????d tau "abstrakt" schriewen, k??mmt dat nich bi
all' an. De Tauh??rers kieken as de O?? up'n Daler, un weiten nicksnich mit
antaufangen.
Ick heff dat in all' de Johren mit mien Sch??ulers (VHS) bel??wt (1979 - bet
h??t), oewer nienich upg??wen.
Heute m??ssen wir froh sein, wenn wir f??r die Zukunft den plattdeutschen
Grundwortschatz retten k??nnen, ob da noch eine Qualit??tssteigerung zu
erwarten ist, dat fraag ick mi. Dat is nu mal so, ob uns dat recht odder
nich recht is. K??nstler m??ten ok mal in ein Kinnerschaul, Kinnergorden un
annerswo
??nner de L????d gahn, denn geiht ehr ein L??cht up, woans dat mit uns Sprak
steiht (un mal kein Euro verlangen). Dat geiht, wenn' will. Man kann nich
all'ns von "gr??unen Schriwdisch" ut maken.

Wenn ein Plattfr??nd sick ein pd. Theaterst??ck anh??rt, hett hei sien Freud.
Nahstens birst hei nah Huus un vertellt, dat hei wedder mal lachen k??nn. So
is dat doch, wenn wi
nipp nahdenken. Dat L??ben schenkt uns man blot ein l??tt' Lachen, dat langt
nich.
Liekers kieken sick ok Minschen pd. Trag??dien an, un disse Taukiekers
verlangen wat von uns' Sprak, un dor kiegen's dat ok tau h??ren.

Dat kann blotsen b??ter warden, wenn de Boewelsten deiper in denn' Geldb??del
griepen, wo sei mi m??nnigmal tau dull mit de Euro's aasen.  De
Schaulmeisters maken dat all'  ahn Euro so bi weglang mit, dat stahn's up de
Duer nich d??rch. Un dor is de Haken, an denn wi ??mmer noch  bammeln. All'
dit hett mi kein Rauh nich laten, wo wi doch alltohopen uns' Plattd????tsch so
leiw' hebben un f??r all' Tieden hochhollen will'n.

So heff ick mi up eigen Oort 'n Kopp makt.

Von Harten.
Hanne

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.15 (08) [DE-EN]

Lieber Joachim & Reinhard,

ich habe diese Mail erst jetzt gelesen, sonst w??re mir einiges klarer
gewesen, was Du, lieber Joachim, mit dem Hanseplatt als Vorbild meinst. Also
eine *vereinheitlichte* Hochsprache -- mit den Formen des damaligen Platt
als gemeinsamem Nenner aller heutigen Dialekte. Reinhard meint dagegen, das
kriegen wir nicht hin, die Plattsprecher wollen es nicht. Es w??re ja auch
was ganz anderes als das heutige Platt. Auch Joachim zweifelt, ob sich das
durchsetzen lie??e. Uff!!! Ihr zweifelt mit Recht, meine ich. Die Leute reden
ihren Dialekt ja nicht oder nicht nur, weil sie sich von anderen abgrenzen
wollen, engstirnig sind oder ihre Ecke und ihren Tungslag f??r die Krone der
Sch??pfung halten. Nein, sie reden ihren Dialekt, weil sie ihn *lieben*!
Genau diesen Dialekt lieben sie. Au??er Gef??hlen gibt es heute ??berhaupt
keinen Grund mehr, Platt zu reden. Die Gef??hle m??ssen wir respektieren und
hochhalten, diese Gef??hle sind unser Kapital, mit dem wir f??r Platt etwas
tun (k??nnen). Sonst lassen wir alle Plattsprecher da stehen, wo sie
sind, und gehen zu einer Hochsprache ohne Sprecher/innen. Wohl bekomms.

Mein Vorschlag: Wenn wir eine plattdeutsche Hochsprache etablieren wollen,
machen wir sowieso was ganz Neues. Oder etwas ziemlich Neues. Mit Ivrit
wurde es schon mal gemacht, aber da gab es meines Laienwissens keine noch
lebendige Dialektvielfalt, sondern nur eine gut konservierte einheitliche
Ursprache, die aufgepeppt werden musste. Also machen wir was Neues, ja?
Warum dann nicht etwas *ganz* Neues: Endlich mal weg von der "Spurbreite 1"
bei der Vereinheitlichung! Endlich weg von "nur 1 Wort oder Form oder
Schreibweise ist richtig!" Reinhard hat eine wunderbare Formulierung daf??r
geliefert:

"create a single standard *variety*".

Die Hervorhebung ist nat??rlich von mir. -- Eine Standardvielfalt also. Der
Ausdruck bezaubert mich richtig. Die ganzen genormten Dudenk??ppe w??rden das
vielleicht als Widerspruch in sich bezeichnen, aber was macht das schon?
Diese Vielfalt m??sste weit gefasst werden. Sie m??sste alle g??ngigen Dialekte
umfassen, und alle w??ren *richtig*. Sie m??ssten so geschrieben werden, dass
sie untereinander verst??ndlich sind, also dass die Sprecherin des einen
Dialekts Texte eines Sprechers des anderen Dialekts lesen und verstehen
kann. Antworten tut sie dann in ihrem eigenen Dialekt. Wenn jede/r den
eigenen Dialekt respektiert wei??, kann er auch den Dialekt des anderen
gelten lassen. Und alle gemeinsam w??ren *Plattdeutsch*. --  Ist es
schwierig, so ein Schreibsystem zu entwickeln? Ich bin mit dem Norwegischen
nicht vertraut. Welche Werkzeuge braucht man denn da? Jedenfalls muss der
Klang der W??rter im jeweiligen Dialekt in der Schreibung erkennbar sein,
meine ich.

Die Sprecher des Plattdeutschen m??ssten dann an passiven Sprachkenntnissen
mehr aufwenden, da sie alle anderen Dialekte verstehen m??ssten. Aber das ist
ihnen zuzumuten, denn Plattsprecher sind heute sowieso Leute, die bereit
sind, eine sprachliche Extraleistung zu erbringen. Diese "Standardvielfalt"
ist eine unnachahmliche St??rke des Plattdeutschen, ein Sympathietr??ger und
ein Alleinstellungsmerkmal. Wenn ich meine Phantasie laufen lasse, k??nnte
der Begriff die g??ngigen Fallbeil-Definitionen von "richtig" und "falsch",
von "wir" und "die anderen" ??ber den Haufen werfen, ??berall als Vorbild
dienen, Grenzen aufweichen und insgesamt die Welt retten :-)) Obama kann
sich pensionieren lassen, wenn wir mit unserer Standardvielfalt kommen!

Auf Plattpartu machen wir ??brigens nichts anderes. Also nicht die Welt
retten (das auch), sondern alle Dialekte gleichrangig nebeneinander und
miteinander kommunizieren lassen. Jeder schreibt nach seinem Schnabel,
korrigieren tun wir nur offensichtliche Tippfehler (und, ja, grobe
Hochdeutschizismen). Ich pers??nlich liebe alle Dialekte, auch das
Westf??lische mit seinen unglaublichen Vokalen und das Mecklenburgische mit
seiner ganz anderen Grammatik. Mein eigenes Platt ist ein Dialektmischmasch,
also was soll ich Puristin sein?!

Uff, jetzt langts aber mit den langen Mails! Liebe Gr????e!

Marlou

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/1e26130c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 14:09:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:09:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.070933.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Enjoy the privilege of Low Saxon ;-):

http://www.rp-online.de/public/article/beruf/ratgeber/720561/Auf-Platt-beleidigt-Kuendigung-ueberzogen.html

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at -online.de>
Subject: L????d'snack

So kann't kamen ...

*Antworten auf neugierige Fragen.*
**
(Kleine Auswahl)
"Wat gifft 't h????t to Middag?" Wat up 'n Disch k??mmt. - Wat sch??n smeckt un
nicks kost't. - H????t gifft 't gor nicks, un dat ward upwarmt. - K??sst, Kroom
un dr??g' Brot - s??nd dree Gerichte. -
R??ben R??ben, wer dee nich mag, kann t??ben.

"Wat is dat?" Dat is 'n Ding mit 'n duwwelten Snepper, mit 'n Zisslaw??ng.

"Wat sall dat warden?" Dat sall 'ne Klink warden v??r 't H??hnernest; 'n
Handgriff an de Essigbuddel; 'n Himphamp f??r Gro??mudder ehr Bedd. - Dat sall
'n Ding warden, wo de Buer de Eier ut s??ppt.

"Wennihr wir dat?" Anno Toback; Anno Kruk, as 't noch keen Buddels gew. -
Achteinhunnert un Kringelstr??mp, as de Oss up'n Boom set. - Dr??tteihnhunnert
un knuppen, as de Maik??wers noch Krempst??wel dr??gen. - As D????wels Gro??mutter
noch Jumfer wir.

"Wat krieg' ick to Wiehnachten?"  Wat du v??rig Johr kr??gen hest (nicks). -
'ne Pr??k mit Z??genhoor. - Kallbatschensupp un 'n b??ten barken Ries.

"Wennihr krieg' ick dat?" Anner Woch Klock dree. - Wenn de Hahn Eier leggt.
- Wenn de Kreihgen witt warden - grisen dons s' all. -
Pingstmandag, wenn de G??s' up 'n Ies danzen.

Asche pack in de Mark is ut.

Nahdenkern is't woll, man ok hoeglich.

Best' Gr??uten.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/98f75a78/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 20:53:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:53:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.135335.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at -online.de <mailto:HanneHinz at -online.de>>

> "Wennihr wir dat?" Anno Toback; Anno Kruk, as 't noch keen Buddels gew.
>

Ik heff j??st n??lich ??ver en Utdruck nadacht: "as X noch keen Mood
weer/weren". Warrt in j??st so Utdr??ck bruukt as "Anno Kruk, as Buddels noch
keen Mood weren". Kennt ji den Utdruck in joon Dialekten ok? Kennt ji noch
annere "noch keen Mood weren"-Utdr??ck?

Marcus Buck

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/99675c36/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 21:21:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:21:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (05) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.142111.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

 Leev Hanne,

ja, mit de Qualit??t vun uns' Platt is dat nich j??mmers to'n Besten bestellt,
avers wi arbeit' an :-) Dorwegen snackt wi ja ??ver niege W????r. "Man kann
doch ??mschrieven": ??mschrieven geiht mehrstendeels, avers is nich j??mmers,
wat een will. Mennigmaal will ik nau d??t stracks un direkt seggen. Denn bruk
ik en Woort. Dat ik faken nich dat Rechte faatkriegen do, steiht op'n anner
Blatt. Strack un direkt ween is ja ok in'n Charakter vun Platt. Man ik
gl????v, wi dreiht us meddewiel in'n Kring, Du hest sachs Recht, wi hebbt us
den Bregen k??selig ??ver snackt.

Mit "Distanzhollen" heff ik, blangenbi, nich dat Woort, s??nnern den Sinn
meent. Gifft ja L??, de op Platt keen Distanz d??llen w??llt un mit alle Welt
kumpelig un per Du s??nd usw. De Typen, de di mit'n Ellbagen anstupst, wenn
se di man j??st 5 Minuten kennt. Ok dorto schull dat Alternativen op Platt
geven. Un Du b??st nich so een! :-)

Knuddels!

Marlou


From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexikon" 2009.06.16 (08) [DE-NDS]

...

Man kann doch W????r, de ick mi markt heff, ??mschriewen, un dat gellt f??r
Plattd????tsch.
- Tempo??vertreden (dat h??rt sick gruugelich an)
- Straofmandoot (schlimm)
- dat Denken to  -kl??ren- ?
- Begleit??mst??nn  (dat is Mischmasch)
- Beamtend????tsch
- Gesettb??kers
- partu Distanz, Distanzhollen verl??vt? Bi mi nich.
- verkeden (ji makt jug dat sworer, as't noedig is)
- h??lplos
- korrigeert
Mit disse W????r kann ick mi nich in mien' Plattd????tsch-Kring seihn laten.


----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

>
> Die Leute reden ihren Dialekt ja nicht oder nicht nur, weil sie sich von
> anderen abgrenzen wollen, engstirnig sind oder ihre Ecke und ihren Tungslag
> f??r die Krone der Sch??pfung halten. Nein, sie reden ihren Dialekt, weil sie
> ihn /*lieben*/! Genau diesen Dialekt lieben sie. Au??er Gef??hlen gibt es
> heute ??berhaupt keinen Grund mehr, Platt zu reden.
>

Also dat mag ik nu ganz gewiss nich so stahn laten. Dat gifft vondaag j??mmer
noch en poor hunnertdusend L????d, de Platt as Mudderspraak snackt. De in de
Spraak mehr tohuus s??nd, de al jemehr Leven lang Platt snackt hebbt. F??r de
Hoochd????tsch j??mmer en Tweetspraak bleven is. (Een, de se temlich good
k????nt, aver de man nich ganz so licht von de Tung geiht as jemehr
Moderspraak.) Dat s??nd normalerwies allens eenfache L????d. Buurn, Handwarker,
Arbeiders. L????d, de mit jemehrn Kopp arbeiden doot, f??r de is Spraak j??mmer
mit Prestige verbunnen. 'Keen in de Wetenschop, in't B??ro etc. wat gellen
will, de mutt ??nnig Hoochd????tsch snacken k??nen, mutt de Spraak so deep in
sien Kopp rinkriegen, dat he ehr j??stso good kann as sien Mudderspraak.
Disse Soort L????d, de mit'n Kopp arbeiden doot, finnt faken in't ??ller wedder
tr??ch to de Moderspraak, wenn se in Rente s??nd, wenn dat Prestige in'n
Beroop nich mehr wichtig is. Denn warrt opmal Gef??hlen wedder wichtig. De
Warms von de ole Mudderspraak. F??r en Buur oder en Discher bed????dt Spraak
keen Prestige. En Fischer oder een, de bi VW schwei??t, de k????nt jemehr
Arbeid good doon un bruukt dor keen Woord f??r snacken. Hoochd????tsch blifft
denn faken reine Tweetspraak, de blot ruthaalt warrt, wenn't n??dig is. Un
blot so lang as't n??dig is. Wenn de denn oold un in Rente s??nd, denn doot de
nix wedder opdecken. Denn jemehr Mudderspraak weer ja nie todeckt.

Plattd????tsche Schrievers un plattd????tsche Spraakredders h????rt faken to de
Koppl????d in Rente. De Handl????d, de faken dat weniger verhoochd????tschte Platt
snackt, s??nd mehr still. De hebbt jemehr Mudderspraak ok geern un f??hlt ok
de Warms von de Spraak, aver hebbt keen Ambitionen/keen Kraft 500 Johr
??nnerdr??ckung wedder to dreihn.

Disse L????d hebbt also en goden Grund Platt to snacken, de nix mit Gef??hlen
to doon hett. De Grund is rein pragmatisch. Dat is jemehr Mudderspraak. De
Spraak, de ut een rutspruddelt, ??ver de een nich nadenken mutt.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

Leiw Marlou,

mit dien Ideen-Str??mels hest du mi bannig verfiert.

Fr??m'w????r lut plattmaken, dat is f??r de Katt. Woans stellst du di dat v??r.
Portmanee (Portemonnaie), Syn Portjuchhee, Geldb??del, Geldtasch, Geldkatt,
Knipptasch, Spez. gut gef??lltes Portemonnaie, 'ne dick Marie, Bertha.
Dat Wuurt Portjuchhee is je mihr 'n ??kelwuurt, up dit Wuurt kann man sick
doch nich fastleggen. Platt sall doch ut dien Sicht Charakter beholln, un nu
dit;
melankl??t(e)rig (melancholisch) Syn. deepsinnig, sworm??udig. Du kannst doch
nich dien v??rslagen W????r in ein "Uniform" kleeden. Wo bliwwt denn de
Frieheit f??r de v??len un sch??n'n W????r, de wi noch so up Lager hebben. Wi
sneeren uns Sprak denn' Hals  un s??nd doch so giern ??nner de N??s' gaut tau
Faut (lebhaft und wortreich plaudern).
Mien leiw un klauke Marlou, wist du denn all' de noch beg??ng' plattd????tschen
W????r an'n Maand scheiten. - Ingelsch bliwwt liekers ein Weltsprak.

Perfesser Dr. Renate Herrmann-Winter hett sick all in ehr W????rbauk nah dien
uth??kte Method richt. Dor s??nd sick h??t noch nich all' einig. Liekers sei
hett up ehr Oort 'n Weg funn'. Oewer de mihrsten Schriewers bliewen bi ehr
eigen Schriewoort. Dor m??ten wi noch oewer einen groten Barg henwegkamen.
Oewer mi d??cht, wi m??ten in't Ierst woll bargdal krupen.
Team/Tiem, dat is doch nich noedig, nahkieken. Bether hett dat ??mmer  f??r
all' Oort Gruppen Crew (Kru) heiten.Denn k??nn man je glieksen Ingelsch
lihren. Man is je all up dat dreisprakig Lihren (Kinnergorden) kamen. Dor
k??nn dat je ne Oort von "Eselsbr??cke" sien.

Marlou,  du stellst je rein de Plattd????tsch Spraak up'n Kopp. Bliew mal up
de Ierd. Ick b??n wohrraftig f??r niegen Kram, oewer disse Oewermaud haugt mi
??m. (Hest du di 'n L??tten ut de Dackr??nn tau Bost nahmen... ) Uns pl.
Spraken hebben sick je all unvermaudens b??ten vermengeliert.
Segg mal, woans stellst du di denn' Oewergang v??r. Dat k??nn tautied  dat
Afsacken
noch deiper d??kern. Wi m??ten ierst mal uphalen, wat anner (boewelste)  L????d'
tau licht nahmen hebben.
T??w man ierst denn' "Sonderdruck" von INS af, dor stahn all' de Bidr??g' von
dat grote Drapen (10 Jahre Sprachen-Charta in Deutschland: Praxis und
Perspektiven) in. Dat hebben sick je ok noch anner Experten 'n groten Kopp
makt, un dor  s??nd kein olle Kamellen bi rutkamen.
Oh, j??st telefoniert Molli von dat Eiland R??gen mit mi. Wi s??nd in't
Vertellen kam', ok oewer dat, wat ick hier in de Mak heff, dunn s??d sei
"..... was gewachsen ist soll man nicht m??hen". Wi kenn uns all t??mlich lang
un hebben in Berlin studeert.
So, nu is mi de Pust utgahn. Un ick heff 'n groten Knast (Hunger) up
Abendk??st.

Nu m??t ick di woll knuddeln.

Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Leve L????d',

'n Apenen Sinn bi't Woord-Maken mutt sien. Spaa?? mutt ook sien. Man bloots
??kelw????r un annern Spij??kenkraam mutt nich sien, d??cht mi.

Wor??m nich simplemang "Kopeermaschien" so as in meist de mehrsten Spraken?
Wor??m Fr??mdw????r ruutsmieten, de al allerw??gens gellen doot, un de H????n un
Perd????n al verstaht? Wor??m partu "exotische Plattw????r rein platt"?

Dat gifft al so noch v????l to v????l Minschen, de "Platt" as 'n Slag "party
joke" ankieken doot, as "drollig", as "unbeholfen", as "urig". Dat bed????dt,
dat se ??hr nich f??r vull n??hmen doot.

As ik al s??, Spaa?? mutt sien (s?? de D??vel un kittel sien Grootmoder mit de
Messfork). Man mi d??cht, dat 't 'n groot Versch????l gifft tw??schen "an de
Spraak Spaa?? hebben" un "mit de Spraak Spaa?? maken". Wi kaamt ook ahn
appeldwatschen Spij??kenkraam un ??kelee to Schick. ??kelw????r maakt de Minschen
sik al so.

Gr??tens,
Reinhard/Ron

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/fb958815/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 20:51:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:51:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.17 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.17.JUN.2009.135144.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

 Many of you may have read it already, I just found it:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/boroditsky09/boroditsky09_index.html

Some interesting things here. Enjoy!

Marlou

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090617/3add160d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 16:53:02 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:53:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.18 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.095302.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (04) [NDS]

 Beste Marcus,

Du schreyvst:
"Kennt ji den Utdruck in joon Dialekten ok? Kennt ji noch annere "noch keen
Mood weren"-Utdr??ck?"

Miin schoyne Jung - in Platt kenn 'ck nich een enkelten ""Uut-Druck"" {=
'Ausdruck'; ergo nach Gutenberg!]! Man - ick kenn woll Snacks as 'al'ns
neymoodschen [neumodern'n] Kraom".


Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/ac0653ef/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 16:54:51 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:54:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.18 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.095451.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

Beste Marlou,

You wrote:

 Many of you may have read it already, I just found it:
?????
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/boroditsky09/boroditsky09_index.html


Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Boroditsky delivers some hard
evidence. Truly loved the article. That superb proto-gps-format of the Kuuk
Thaayorre world definitely left me in awe. I can almost relate to this,
everything and everybody gets geo-tagged in my own world too. There's always
a map up there in my head ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/416f4bb4/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 17:00:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:00:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.18 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.100024.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: Etymology

Ik befaat mi j??st en beten mit de Etymologie von plattd????tsche W????r. Dor
heff ik en poor W????r, bi de ik nich wiederkaam. Villicht weet ji ja wat
dorto. Dat s??nd de W????r:

- oostfreesch 'Kuntrei': Kummt dat von engelsch 'country' oder von
franz????sch 'contr??e'? Warrt dat op de eerste oder de twete S??lv betoont? Un
is dat 'Kuntr??i' oder 'Kuntrai'?
- 'feddern' (hoochd????tsch 'fordern'): mnd. weer dat 'v??rderen', schall von
dat Woord 'v??rder' as in 'V??rdersied' kamen. Nu hett 'feddern' (in uns
Dialekt 'fe'ern' mit rutfullen 'dd') aver keen '??'. Dat hett en 'e'. En
Luudwannel von '??' na 'e' is keen grote Saak. In Pommern un Oostpr????en weer
dat to'n Bispeel ganz normal. Aver in uns Dialekt geiht de Trend j??st
annersr??m, mehr von 'e' na '??'. Un denn is dor noch dat wegfullen 'r'. Ik
kenn ans keeneen Woord bi dat eerst 'erd' to 'edd' worrn is (dor b??n ik mi
al unseker, ob dat dat ??verhaupt gifft), un denn dat 'dd' ok noch rutfullen
is. Na de Luudgesetten kann ik mi dor keen Riem op maken. Villicht hett een
von jo Ideen, wo dat Woord to verkloren is. Warrt annerwegens ok 'feddern'
seggt, oder gifft dat dor noch annere Utspraken/Schrievwiesen/W????r?
- dat dr??dde s??nd de W????r 'Feudel' un 'Leuwagen', de as "typisch
norddeutsche" W????r popul??r s??nd. 'Leuwagen' warrt bi uns nich seggt, aver wi
seggt in uns Platt ok 'Feuel' un 'feueln'. Mien Problem is nu dat 'eu'. So'n
'oi' gifft dat ans nich in dat Luudinventar von uns Dialekt. In't Ole Land
seggt se ja to'n Bispeel 'Koinig' f??r 'K??nig', aver bi uns is dat 'K??inig'.
'Feuel' mutt also noch relativ jung wesen un kummt nich ut uns Dialekt. Hett
dor een en Idee, wat dor de urspr??ngliche Toon weer? (Ok in 'Leuwagen')
- un denn heff ik vers??cht, ut de Luudstruktur un de Luudwannels klook to
warrn, de bi de Woordreeg "draihn/saihn/waihn/maihn/naihn/xxx" (ik heff dat
mal mit 'ai' schreven, dat de Klang ok rutkummt, mehrsttieds warrt ans ja
'ei' schreven. ["xxx" steiht f??r "bl??hen", wat dat op Platt nich gifft,
sowied ik dat weet. wat seggt de Plattd????tsche egentlich to "gebl??hte
Segel"?]) passeert s??nd. Hoochd????tsch
"drehen/s??en/wehen/m??hen/n??hen/bl??hen", Ooldsassisch weer dat
"thr??ian/s??ian/w??ian/m??ian/n??ian/xxx", Engelsch is dat
"throw/sow/xxx/mow/xxx/blow", Nedderlandsch
"draaien/zaaien/waaien/maaien/naaien/xxx". Mien eerste Fraag: s??nd de
ooldsassischen Formen germaansche jan-Verben oder h????rt dat 'i' to'n Stamm?
Un mien twete Fraag: Hebbt all plattd????tsche Dialekten den 'ai'-Klang in
disse W????r oder gifft dat ok Dialekten mit en '??'-Klang oder noch en annern
Klang?

Dat eerstmal.
Besten Dank
Marcus Buck

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/495d08fe/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 16:57:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:57:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.18 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.095740.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (05) [NDS]

 Leev Hanne,

kaam dal vun de Palme! Ik maak doch nix as luut nadenken ??ver
*Din*Henwiesen. Du hest en List maakt, wa Reuter franz????sche Fr??mdw????r
plattmaakt
hett. Na Luden. Dat is de Methood, de ik diskereert heff. Bi Reuter harrst
Du nix dagegen, hm? Vun Fru Hermann-Winter weet ik nix af. Ik stell Platt ok
nich op'n Kopp, dat steiht doch gor nich in min Macht. Plattmaakte niege
W????r s??nd ok nich alternativlose V??rschrift, i wo. Du k??mmst nich in't
Kaschott, wenn Du lever Knipp staats Portjuchee seggst. Liekso smittst Du mi
ja ok nich in'n Knast, wenn ik nich Reuter sin plattmaaktes Franz????sch bruk,
s??nnern dat anners segg, nich?

Also keen Panik nich! Wi denkt ja bloots luut na. Mit dat, wat wi hier
utprobeert, ver??nnert wi veel weniger, as wi geern harrn.

Hartlich Knuddels un slaap ruhig!

Marlou


 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

Leiw Marlou,

mit dien Ideen-Str??mels hest du mi bannig verfiert.

Fr??m'w????r lut plattmaken, dat is f??r de Katt. Woans stellst du di dat v??r.
Portmanee (Portemonnaie), Syn Portjuchhee, Geldb??del, Geldtasch, Geldkatt,
Knipptasch, Spez. gut gef??lltes Portemonnaie, 'ne dick Marie, Bertha.
Dat Wuurt Portjuchhee is je mihr 'n ??kelwuurt, up dit Wuurt kann man sick
doch nich fastleggen. Platt sall doch ut dien Sicht Charakter beholln, un nu
dit;
melankl??t(e)rig (melancholisch) Syn. deepsinnig, sworm??udig. Du kannst doch
nich dien v??rslagen W????r in ein "Uniform" kleeden. Wo bliwwt denn de
Frieheit f??r de v??len un sch??n'n W????r, de wi noch so up Lager hebben. Wi
sneeren uns Sprak denn' Hals  un s??nd doch so giern ??nner de N??s' gaut tau
Faut (lebhaft und wortreich plaudern).
Mien leiw un klauke Marlou, wist du denn all' de noch beg??ng' plattd????tschen
W????r an'n Maand scheiten. - Ingelsch bliwwt liekers ein Weltsprak.

Perfesser Dr. Renate Herrmann-Winter hett sick all in ehr W????rbauk nah dien
uth??kte Method richt. Dor s??nd sick h??t noch nich all' einig. Liekers sei
hett up ehr Oort 'n Weg funn'. Oewer de mihrsten Schriewers bliewen bi ehr
eigen Schriewoort. Dor m??ten wi noch oewer einen groten Barg henwegkamen.
Oewer mi d??cht, wi m??ten in't Ierst woll bargdal krupen.
Team/Tiem, dat is doch nich noedig, nahkieken. Bether hett dat ??mmer  f??r
all' Oort Gruppen Crew (Kru) heiten.Denn k??nn man je glieksen Ingelsch
lihren. Man is je all up dat dreisprakig Lihren (Kinnergorden) kamen. Dor
k??nn dat je ne Oort von "Eselsbr??cke" sien.

Marlou,  du stellst je rein de Plattd????tsch Spraak up'n Kopp. Bliew mal up
de Ierd. Ick b??n wohrraftig f??r niegen Kram, oewer disse Oewermaud haugt mi
??m. (Hest du di 'n L??tten ut de Dackr??nn tau Bost nahmen... ) Uns pl.
Spraken hebben sick je all unvermaudens b??ten vermengeliert.
Segg mal, woans stellst du di denn' Oewergang v??r. Dat k??nn tautied  dat
Afsacken
noch deiper d??kern. Wi m??ten ierst mal uphalen, wat anner (boewelste)  L????d'
tau licht nahmen hebben.
T??w man ierst denn' "Sonderdruck" von INS af, dor stahn all' de Bidr??g' von
dat grote Drapen (10 Jahre Sprachen-Charta in Deutschland: Praxis und
Perspektiven) in. Dat hebben sick je ok noch anner Experten 'n groten Kopp
makt, un dor  s??nd kein olle Kamellen bi rutkamen.
Oh, j??st telefoniert Molli von dat Eiland R??gen mit mi. Wi s??nd in't
Vertellen kam', ok oewer dat, wat ick hier in de Mak heff, dunn s??d sei
"..... was gewachsen ist soll man nicht m??hen". Wi kenn uns all t??mlich lang
un hebben in Berlin studeert.
So, nu is mi de Pust utgahn. Un ick heff 'n groten Knast (Hunger) up
Abendk??st.

Nu m??t ick di woll knuddeln.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/3c805d5f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 19:16:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:16:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.18 (04) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.121644.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Kreimer-de Fries Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.18 (05) [NDS-DE]
                                - Textcodeerung: Unicode (utf-8) -

Hello Lowlanders,

I regard the debate of the last days under "Lexikon" (on the possibility of
an united Low German orthography and - possibly - middel-language) as very
important for the future of Low Germen or not. So I made here a rather long
intervention to it. I don't expect that you others read it (you may, if you
understand). I made it in Westphalian, because I find, that over Low German
one should be able to discus in this language, too.

But it is mainly of interest for us Low German fans. So please excuse.
Goutgaun!

BTW, I let it under "Lexicon", because it come from that thread. But it
rather needed another "matter" as "orthography" or "language contruction".

***

Leywe Marlou, Jonny, Hannelore, Ron & andeelniemers,

Am 17.06.2009 um 02:15 schraif Marlou Lessing <marless at gmx.de>:

> seggst Du [Joachim},schallt wi us dat Platt vun de Hansetied to'n V??rbild
>> nehmen. Ik welk Wies? Platt weer ??mgangs- un Gesch??fftsspraak to de Tied,
>> dat's wohr. Meenst Du dat mit dat V??rbild?
>>
>
Jau, nich dat ik meende, dat sik plat as beroups- un hannelssprauke sa baule
d??rsetten laute, man et mot m??gelk siin, auk ??konoumske, kulturelle vorg??nge
un jedwedde kumpelseerte saakverhault uuttodr??cken. Torre tiid van de Hanse
was dat wual m??gelk. Wisse nich van alle l????de, s??ndern blaut van beldeden
un schriiwerl????de, man dat hadde niks met de sprauke an sik to doun.

 Man nee, Du snackst vun de "fuormen un begriepe". Ik much geern weten, wat
>> Du dormit meenst.
>>
>
I. fuormen, "Formen":

Met ??fuormen?? meene ik t. b. 4 f??lle in der dinkwaard-buugenge
(substantiv-flexion), den optativ van de doun-w????rde (verben), un andere
grammatiske fuormen, de et in der hanse-sassesk gaf, in mangen tungensli??gen
auk na in'm 19. jhdt., man in dem privat-/geliegenheydsplatt van
h????tigesdaages un den meysten goudmenden l??tken platst??cksken nich mehr.

De 3. fall (wem-fal, dativ) gift et in viele platte tunensli??ge j??mmers na,
tominnest in'm Westf????lsk van' 20. jhdt. Allerdinks: in den meysten regionen
brukeden se wual de dativ-fuorm van den dinkwaard, man liikers met den
afsliepenen artikel "den" stat met'm middelnidderd????dsken (korten) "dem,
deme". Wan dat nich echte platt lantl????e (de wual baule uutstuorwen sint)
maaket, s??ndern l????e as du un ik, dan k??mt mi dat wat k??nstlik vor: as wan
me weeniger beldede l????de van'm lande ????wt, de in de grammatik nich firm
sint un den dativ nich kennet. Jau, dat maaket me faaken auk in
standard-d????dsk.

F??r den aldag is mi dat ja gliiks, man wan't ??mme kumpelseertere sakverhaule
geyt, wi??rket dat wat hinderliken.

De wes-fal (genetiv) is nich uners??tlik un deswiegen auk nich unerl??tlik, as
me an'm Nidderlansken s??t. De van+dativ-??mmeschriivenge d????t et auk. Awers:
de middelnidderd????dske genetiv is auk en kultur-i??rwe, war??mme sal me sik
dessen nich bedeenen? (Un de reste as in ??'s nachtens??, ??daages-tiid?? etc.
sint je na al wiithen gebr????klik. - Et gift en alsau, den wes-fal.)

II. begriepe, "Begriffe", w????rdeschat, "Wortschatz":

 Wat nau hett dat Platt vun dormalen, wat h????t brukt warrt? Woans helpt us
>> dat ??ver de H??rden weg, dat in't Platt vun vundaag t.B. W????r/Utdr??ck f??r
>> niege Saken un Ph??nomene fehlt? Kann us da nich ehrder dat Nedderl??ndische
>> wiederhelpen?
>>
>
J??mmers, wan ik en begriepe up plat nich weete, un t. b. auk bi SASS,
Hermann-Winter etc. niks passendet un gef??lliget fiine, kiik ik:

1. in Kl??ntrup siin Niederdeutsch-Westph??lisches W??rterbuch (1824), dat
langt meestig; wan ik dar nich f??ndig werde,

2. in L??bben siin "Mittelniederdeutsches Handw??rterbuch" un noutfals auch

3. bi Schiller-L??bben of in'n herkumpst-w????rdebouk (etmologii-diktion????r)
nau.

4. jau, auk in'n nidderl??ndsken diksion????r laut sik faaken wat fiinen, dat
me inf????ren kan.

In aller regel h??wwe ik dan en platd????dsken begriepe fuunen, de mi saklik an
e mi??ten un plat noug to siin schint, of tominnest gouet ruwfoor (Rohfutter,
-material) met dem ik en nigwaard (neologismus) maaken kan.

Awers ik hewwe partu nin problem, auk heele fr????mdw????rde, tomals wan se al
in'n fakliken of weetenskepliken spraukgebruuk sind, intosetten of
uuttolainen un to verplatten, as Marlou dat met biispellen upteeket.

Dat mende ik met "begriepe" uut dem plat van ??lderen tiiden: den w????rdeschat
van nidders????tsk as ??haugsprauke??, wan se noch sprauke van de meysten, auk
de belleden volksklassen was.

III. schriifwiis (orthografii)

Am 17.06.2009 um 16:20 schraif Marlou Lessing:

> Mein Vorschlag: Wenn wir eine plattdeutsche Hochsprache etablieren wollen,
>> ... Warum dann nicht etwas ganzNeues: ...
>> Reinhard hat eine wunderbare Formulierung daf??r geliefert:
>>
>> "create a single standard variety".
>>
>> Die Hervorhebung ist nat??rlich von mir. -- Eine Standardvielfalt also. ...
>> Diese Vielfalt m??sste weit gefasst werden. Sie m??sste alle g??ngigen
>> Dialekte umfassen, und alle w??renrichtig. Sie m??ssten so geschrieben werden,
>> dass sie untereinander verst??ndlich sind, also dass die Sprecherin des einen
>> Dialekts Texte eines Sprechers des anderen Dialekts lesen und verstehen
>> kann. Antworten tut sie dann in ihrem eigenen Dialekt. Wenn jede/r den
>> eigenen Dialekt respektiert wei??, kann er auch den Dialekt des anderen
>> gelten lassen. Und alle gemeinsam w??ren Plattdeutsch. --  Ist es schwierig,
>> so ein Schreibsystem zu entwickeln?
>>
>
An sik is dat nich alsto swaar, 'ne eynheytlike schriifwiis for sassesk
uptostellen, tominnest nich, wan me de in Noord-D????dsklant gebr??uklike
beteeung van boukstaawen un luuten (grafeem-foneem-entspri??kunge)  uutgeyt.
Dat enkelste probleem is, dat de regeln van Johann Sa?? un de Fehrs-Gilde dar
partu nich for duuget, de aawers in'n Noordsassesken beriik al wiithen
anerkant sint un befolget werdet.

De wichtigsten regeln sint:

1. Klaare ??nnerscheydenge van langen un korten s??lwen:

- lange s??lwen werdet d??r verduwwelunk van den monophthong liiketeyknet ??ii,
????, aa, ee,  ????, oo, uu, ?????? (wan't nin diphthong enthaulet, waar sik dat
er????wrigt).

Dat schriiwen van ??ii?? for lank-i is darvan dat allerwichtigste un de
(haugd????dske) ie-schriiwenge m??ste tabu siin for plattschriiwers, wiils
anners de (westf????lske) bri??kengs-diphthong [IPA: 'i??, ??'e, ??'??] nich
vern??nftig schriewen werden kan! (Jau, jau, Marlou un de meysten, dat
s????llet ji juu man klaar maken, dat juue hierhaalte ie-schriifwiis for
lank-i 'ne st??ndige attacke up bed????dende twigge van plat-kultur is!!! ;-)

- korte s??lwen werdet met eynfaken vokaal-boukstaawen schriewen, naufolgende
metluut-verduwwelung is nich n????dig! (Schaaet aawers meystig auk nich).

2. Eynd????dige ??nnerscheedunge van a-i- und e-i-diphthong.

- a-i-diphthong mot j??mmers ??ai?? schriewen werden (of ??ay??),

- e-i-diphthong kan ??ey?? (wat ik tor tiit am sinnigsten fiine), of ??eei?? of
??ee?? (<- dat is dan nich van lang-e ??nnerscheeden), awers auk, as meystig
in'm Mnd. ??ei?? schriewen werden. In lesderen fal mot me de an't haugd????dske
"ei"=ai darop henwiisen.

3. For de anneren tweyluute nimt me j??mmers de beyden (of mehr)
vokalbaukstaawen, de den klankbougen am ehrsten un besten daarstellen.

------------------------
Exkurs: "Bri??mer schriifwiis", "Bremer Schreibung"

(s?? ??Niederdeutsche Grammatik?? van Lindow, M??hn, Niebaum, Stellmacher,
Taubken u. Wirrer.
1. Auflage Leer 1998 = Schriften des Instituts f??r niederdeutsche Sprache,
Dokumentation Nr. 20),
S. 36-42)

Tof??llig bin ik nu wier darup st??t. De buawen n????mden gruntregeln un na en
paar mehr h??wwet de d??sse wiithen anerkanten gel????rden van spaukweetenskepen
????wer Sassesk al 1998 upschriewen.

Dat daarmet verfolgede teel is: tungensli??ge wier _lernbar_ un ????werregional
lesbar to maken!

De buawen n????mden h????ft-regeln hadde ik mi al lange to eegen maket un al
vergieten, waar ik dat her hadde.

Aawers: De tos??tlik van den professors vorslaune diakritisken teeken fiine
ik na nich der wiisheyt lesden sluot. De regelunge for de kenteeknunge

- van uapene vokalen met daarunner-setteden komma of "H??kchen":
/??/ for [??,??], /??/ for [??], /????/ for [??,??]

- un den drunnersetteden p??nt/Punkt torre kenteeknunge van den e- un
a-schwa:
/e??/ for [??], /???/ for [??, ??]

haule ik unner normale ??mmest??nde (schriifmaschiin, computer) nich for
praktikabel.
(Daar weete ik auk na nine l????sunge f??r, afseen van verbale verklaaringe, wo
en vokal in'n bestimten kontext uutspruoken werd.)

Man liikers haule ik de "Bremer Schreibung" for en goude uutganks-basis for
'ne gemeensame schriifwiis for alle platd????dsken tungensli??ge. - Dat gilt
tominnest for alle platen wiisen in D????dsklant.

De Nidderl??nder un Flaamen u. a. werdet sik daarbi swaarer doun, wiil dat
met eere wuonde nederlandiske orthografie nich konform geyt.

Half to d??t kapittel h??rt na en gedankensplitter, de mi manges k??mt, wan ik
noordsasseske texten li??se un  ????wer dat half-haugsd????dske
(half-hauchd??tsche) ??sch?? stolpere (schal stats sal, akschon stats aksjon un
hunnert annere w????rde). J??mmers k??mt mi dan de assotsiatsjoon
(assoschatschon) "Schei??e" un "Asch(e)" in'n sin. Ik kan un wil ju nu nich
dat heyl sch??unere westf????ske un freyske ??sk?? updr??ngen. Vellichte konne
daar aawers en tor??gge to de in mnd. texten faaken to fiinende
??sc??-scriiwenge n??tten. D. h., dat dat ??c?? for de eenen (van mehr
konservative tungenslag) for ??s-ch, sg, sk?? steyn [s??oul, -isk/-esk, s??al,
s??ulden], f??r de annern aawers as in hd. "sch". Aawers dat blaut bil??nks,
h????rde auk wual mehr in dat naigste kapittel.

IV. Eenheytlike schriftsprauke Sassesk as dacksprauke?

As ik miine annern breewe darto schriewen hewwe, waar mi dat na nich sau
klar, of ik blaut 'ne gemeensame schriifwiis ofte auk 'ne gemeynsame
schriftsprauke wol. Nau den inwenden van di, Marlou, hewwe ik daar wier
????wer simmeleert: Eegentlik wil ik beydet, de eenheytlike schriifwiis, d. h.
dev s??lwige ??mmesettunge van foneemen in grafeeme, t. b. as buawen v??rslaun,
man auk en gemeensame schriftsprauke in ankn??ppenge an dat laate schriewene
"Middelnidderd????dsck" van'n 16. jhdt., s??lftverst??ndlik met moderniseerunge
van de schriifwiis (de foneem-grafeem-to-oordnunk). Dat bruukte je nich
(gliiks) de sprauke for de regionaalen vertellsels un riimels to siin, auk
nich de geliegenheytssprauke in de privaate ??nnerholleng van platsnackern
hir un daar.

Aawer, wan dat ??mme mehr gedanklike, weetenskeplike saaken g??nk - insluoten
striid ????wer historie un platsprauke, daar konne dat heyl n??tte to siin. Is
dat nich en aarmoutst????gnisse van de bruukbarkeyt un lebennigkeyt van plat,
dat man jewiils 'ne annere sprauke bruuket (sii dat hd., engelsk,
nederlandisk) ??mme "????wer plat" to debatteeren of wat weetenskepliket to
schriiwen. Dat is nett sau, as wan me inner Duden-redaktsjoun latiinsk of
engelsk of frans??sk k????ren _m??sse_, man nich haugd????dsk.

Am 17.06.2009 um 16:20 schraif Marlou Lessing:

> ... was Du, lieber Joachim, mit dem Hanseplatt als Vorbild meinst. Also
>> eine vereinheitlichte Hochsprache -- mit den Formen des damaligen Platt als
>> gemeinsamem Nenner aller heutigen Dialekte. Reinhard meint dagegen, das
>> kriegen wir nicht hin, die Plattsprecher wollen es nicht. Es w??re ja auch
>> was ganz anderes als das heutige Platt. Auch Joachim zweifelt, ob sich das
>> durchsetzen lie??e. Uff!!! Ihr zweifelt mit Recht, meine ich.
>>
>
De twiifel sint wual berechtigt. Dat h??nk daarvan af, of dat genoug
"affacionados" gift, d??sse sprauke nich blaut wi??gen de d????nekes un de
gem????tlikheyt liewet, man auk wiils en kultuursprauke met niwoo was un de
man nich unnergaunen lauten wil. Daar met to doun, settet wual auk en gouden
level van algemeen-beldenge un spraukm??chtigheyt voruut, de in viele
platkringen met den ????werresten van de native spreaker wual nich vorhanden
sint.

 Die Leute reden ihren Dialekt ja nicht oder nicht nur, weil sie sich von
>> anderen abgrenzen wollen, engstirnig sind oder ihre Ecke und ihren Tungslag
>> f??r die Krone der Sch??pfung halten. Nein, sie reden ihren Dialekt, weil sie
>> ihn lieben! Genau diesen Dialekt lieben sie.
>>
>
De sallet sey je auk behaulen! Ik bin auk en leyfhewwer van'n
Oustwestf????lsken, man mi ligt auk wat an'n wir-upstaun van eyne
nidderd????dske (haug-)kultuur.

 Au??er Gef??hlen gibt es heute ??berhaupt keinen Grund mehr, Platt zu reden.
>> Die Gef??hle m??ssen wir respektieren und hochhalten, diese Gef??hle sind unser
>> Kapital, mit dem wir f??r Platt etwas tun (k??nnen). Sonst lassen wir alle
>> Plattsprecher da stehen, wo sie sind, und gehen zu einer Hochsprache ohne
>> Sprecher/innen. Wohl bekomms.
>>
>
Klaar, dr??wwet d??sse l????e nich uuter acht bliiwen in uusen insat for
Nidderd????dsk, im tiigendeyl. Blaut is miin gissen, dat et blaut na villicht
eyn, twey jaarteggende bruukt un dan kans du dey met de luupen s????ken. Wi
bruuket eyneweg l????e, de uut kulturhistorsken interesse un met fr??gde an
sprauken sik met plat befaatet. Dat sint de s??lwigen, de auk s??nner direkte
berouplike n??ttigheyt of reesepl????ne 'ne fr????mdsprauke l????ren. Of sik in
annere rebeeden inwi??rket.

Wan ik maul van diine websiit, Marlou, un de LL-L-siite afseye, waar werdet
wat doun, ??mme s??cke minsken (ik seg maul, van sekundarscoul-alder bet 50)
to fiinen un to for dat spraukavent????r met sassesk to winnen?

Un daar w????r dan auk helpriik, wan dat sowat as 'ne scriftsprauke as
????werdackunge gaiwe. Wel de l????rt hedde un uut nostagiie of spezialinteresse
sik for en (siinen/eeren) regionaal-dialekt interesseerde, kan dat van de
platform van sauner daksprauke s??nner twiiwel lichter daarto kuomen.

Mag siin, dat dat blaut werldfr????mde dr????me sint. Aawerst, sau lange, as
nich maul de eenheytlike schriifwiis, as unner p??nt III vorslaun (of
jedwedde sinnige annere, de up alle platte tungenslo??ge anwendbar is) sik
d????rset, kan me nich seggen, dat de naae doot van plat nich aftowenden was.

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??g => Berlin-Pankow

P. S. Ik bin wual nin christ, man daar mag spraukhistorisk wual wat dran
siin, wat Olaf Bordasch to de Bugenhagen-bibel schrift. De frauge na eyne
saske schriftsprauke as dak bedri??pent:
 http://www.plattdeutsch-niederdeutsch.net/sprachgeschichte.htm

 Bugenhagen und seine Mitarbeiter haben eine Schriftsprache geschaffen, die
> imstande war, die verschiedenen regionalen Ausformungen des Niederdeutschen
> zu ??berdachen. Diese sprachliche Leistung ist durchaus mit der Luthers zu
> vergleichen. Ohne den Schreibsprachenwechsel zum Hochdeutschen w??rde heute
> in Norddeutschland eine Sprache geschrieben (gesprochen), die sich aus der
> Sprache der Bugenhagenbibel entwickelt h??tte.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/b5286056/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 21:11:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:11:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.18 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.141153.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.18 (01) [NDS]

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <mailto:jonny.meibohm at arcor.de >>

> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.17 (04) [NDS]
>
> Beste Marcus,
>  Du schreyvst:
> "Kennt ji den Utdruck in joon Dialekten ok? Kennt ji noch annere "noch keen
> Mood weren"-Utdr??ck?"
>  Miin schoyne Jung - in Platt kenn 'ck nich een enkelten ""Uut-Druck"" {=
> 'Ausdruck'; ergo nach Gutenberg!]! Man - ick kenn woll Snacks as 'al'ns
> neymoodschen [neumodern'n] Kraom".
>   Allerbest!
>  Jonny Meibohm
>
Wenn di dat blot ??m mien Satz geiht, denn geev ik di recht. Dor harr "Snack"
veel beter passt as "Utdruck". Wenn di dat ??m dat Woord "Utdruck" allgemeen
geiht, denn kann ik achter mi wiesen op Reuter, Groth, Bo??dorf, Frahm,
Brinckmann un en ganze Reeg annere.

Marcus Buck

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/1223e745/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 21:16:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:16:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.18 (05) [DA-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.18.JUN.2009.141638.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

*Nyhed: Vores jubil??um-site har nu en dansk sprogindeks!*

Folks,

Thanks to Marc Daniel Skibsted Volhardt, a kind, enthusiastic non-Lowlander
in Denmark, our Anniversary site now has a language index in Danish.

http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/contents-da.php

Tak skal du ha, Marc.

Folks, time for you members to get active again!

Talking about Danish, you are likely to enjoy the following Danish video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk

I find it extremely funny, presented as a TV reality show spoof. It's a
comic approach to Denmark's dialect diversity. It is made for a Danish
audience, but you will enjoy it even without knowing Danish. The funny thing
is that most of the Danish parts are not to be understood by Danes either.
Three gentlemen complain to the audience in *English* (with Danish
subtitles) about the fact that Danes don't understand each other in Danish
and that as a result Danish society as we know it is doomed. The hilarious
twist is that the participants feel obligated to *pretend* to understand
each other. At one point, the hardware man (*isenkr??mmer*) has a moment of
failing courage. What he "whisperingly screams" at the customer to whose arm
he's clinging is "Hj??lp! Vi forst??r hinanden ikke!" ("Help! We do not
understand each other!") But the stiff upper lip prevails soon enough, and
everyone goes on faking mutual comprehension ???

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090618/3ee6fb17/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 15:19:58 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:19:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.081958.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Dear Lowlanders,

I assume that quite a few of you will travel this weekend. This is why I am
sending these holiday greetings out early enough to catch most of you.

On behalf of everyone I wish all fathers, grandfather, great-grandfathers
and father figures on Lowlands-L happy Fathers' Day. Hopefully all of you
will have visitors and get phone calls, cards and email messages.

Also, happy Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice respectively to all of you
to whom these matter!  Happy *Sankt Hans aften* in Denmark, *Jaanip??ev *in
Estonia, *juhannus* in Finland, *Sankthansaften* in Norway,
*Midsommarafton*in Sweden,
*Noc ??wi??toja??ska* especially in Northern Poland, and many variants of
Midsummer festivals in Britain, Ireland and Man, to name but a few. It is
also the beginning of the month-long *?????????? ????????* (White Nights) for our
friends in Russia.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/beefe310/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 15:31:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:31:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language activism" 2009.06.19 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.083135.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: HanneloreHinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.17 (05) [NDS]

Wedder Tauhuus,

man dit blotsen will ick hier vermellen:

GERDA UHTHOFF
2.8.1896 - 21.10.1988
(verlor zwei S??hne im
2. Weltkrieg)

LEIW' PLATTD??TSCH

*MUDDERSPRAAK*
**
Ut deipen Grunn,
in gl??unig Wunn,
hest du di r????gt,
k????mst du tauh????cht,
w????rdst in mi waak,
mien Mudderspraak.

Dunn h??lpst du mi,
nu dein ik di.

Hanne: so wier dat f??r mi v??r un nah denn' iesern V??rhang. Wecker dit
F??uhlen (ut wecker Gr??nn ok) egentlich ERF??HLEN nich kennt ..... sall dat
Laborieren mit uns' Sprak sien laten. Uns Sprak*  is in sick stark un riek,
ja oewerriek!*

FRITZ REUTER

*Eikbom*

2. Vers: "...*up den'n f??tt kein Bil nich un ??xt."*
**
*Ick holl mi an Ron sien W????r! Hei hett ein Oewerkaken tau rechten Tied
bremst.*
*Ick dank di.*
**
Mi hett so m??nnig Wuurt trurig makt un de Peiterzill verhagelt. (Ick wull
all' dat Handdauk smieten. Heff ick mi denn bether in all' de Johrn  ??ms??ss
f??r uns' Spraak insett', wo't ofteins heiten hett ".....ach du mit deinem
Plattdeutsch..."
(Frech wat angahn gellt  un tellt nich.)

In Fr??ndschaft.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/cd16ff56/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 15:32:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:32:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.06.19 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.083238.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatika" 2009.06.18 (04) NDS]

Hallo Marcus un taugliek all' Fr??nn',

ick kenn W????r, as Mod' wier. . .

*Mod', *Maud' f. Mode
*1.*  Kleidermode: *wat Mod' is, dat lett *kleidet (Sch??Dem) *wat Mod' is,
lett gaut, un wir 't ok 'n Haut ahn Rand un Band (Wa); wat Mod' is, dat lett
gaut, hadd' de Fru seggt un hadd' 't Hinnelst nah v??rn bunnen (Wa).*
*2. Gewohnheit, Brauch: **wo 't Mod' is, ritt de Preister uppen Bullen nah
dei Kirch (Raabe Proph. 1848, S. 10); . . . de Buer . . . (Sch??Dem); *vielfach
abgewandelt; *wo 't Mod' is, ward Pumpernickel in de Kirch sungen (STA
Mir);  wo 't Mod' is, bl??ken de Hunn' ut 'n Noors (1887) PaDobb; wat an, in,
f??r, tau, von dei Mod' hebben; dat is so von de Mod'; in dei Mod' kamen; dei
k??mmt ok all ut dei Mod'*  eine alte Jungfer;
*dat is gangbor Mod' (allgemein ??blich Sch??); dat wir von Vadder ut Mod'  *von
fr??her her Brauch HaWitt; *dei sett't 'n Gesicht up, as in soeben Johr keen
Mod' w????st is (RoKlock); du lachst jo oewer 't ganz Gesicht, un oewer 't
halw is man Mod' (WaKLuck); *selten Pl.:* ick mein ??mmer, dei Moden, dei dei
Ollen an sick hadden, wiren noch jo  so gaut, as wat sei nu maken (1919)
LuTech. *
*Zss:Zusammensetzungen: D??rp-, Gang'-, Landmod'.*
**
(Dat all', all wedder von Wossidlo/Teuchert)

Un so, as dat nu mal Mod' is
hier wedder mien hartlich Gr??uten.

Hanne Hinzing

(denkt't noch eins an *ing*)

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/44d7f25c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 16:18:10 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:18:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.091810.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (01) [EN]

Speaking of father figures, Ron holds that distinction here on Lowlands-L in
my opinion.  Recently, I went to the Linguistlist site to see whether I
could find lists similar to Lowlands about other languages, and I couldn???t.


Sure, Linguistlist has other lists regarding other languages, but nothing
like what Ron has done here with Lowlands.  They hardly had any activity,
and what activity they had mostly touched on seminars and workshops.  I???d
like to thank him for providing such a wonderful forum for us here.  If it
weren???t for this list, I know that I couldn???t have learned to read as much
Dutch as I can.  It even spurred me to try my hand at reading the Northern
Germanic languages.  So, a big thanks, Ron.

Mark Brooks
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Thanks, Mark. That was really sweet of you.

But you probably know that much of it is due to many supportive
participants, including you. I just constantly attempt to keep things alive,
fresh, encouraging, welcoming (non-intimidating) and comfortable. Some
levity here and there helps. Of course I owe a debt of gratitude to another
father figure: our patron saint and spiritual guide, the Great Kahuna (
http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm).

Folks, it might be interesting to find out how Summer Solstice and Winter
Solstice are celebrated in your native cultures. As is usual, Summer
Solstice has been overlaid by a Christian holiday, in this case St. John's
Day (after John the Baptist). But customs associated with it usually
represent pre-Christian customs and beliefs. I understand that there is
particularly much variety in this in Britain. For instance, bonfires (< bone
fires) are commonly lit during both solstices. This custom seems to be very,
very old. Variants are found throughout Eurasia.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron (List Daddy)
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/479452b8/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 16:19:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:19:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.19 (05) [NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.091954.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Cillie Nevelhekse

Moi Leeglaanders,

Hieronder en link naor wat neiigheid aover de nevelhekse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSzaA3C6zBM

Goodgaon,
Arend Victorie
Hoogeveen
|Drenthe
Nederland

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/c7373592/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 17:51:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:51:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Competition" 2009.06.19 (06) [NL-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.105153.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 06
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Examenopdracht

Moi Leeglaanders,



Ik heb in 2008 mitwarking verliend an een k??rte film.



Dit was een examenopdracht van Remco Kikkert, veur de opleiding ???Fotonica???



Het in sc??ne zetten van een oflevering van ???Peter R. de Vries
Misdaodverslaggever.???



Ik zal der geliek wel ??empies bij vermelden, da???k onschuldig bin
!!!!!!!!!.......



Remco is deur dizze examenopdracht eslaagd mit een vette NEGEN !!!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbGaq4l_kLY



Kiek en huver?????????



Goodgaon,



Arend Victorie

Hoogeveen

Drenthe

Nederland

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/64f503dc/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 22:47:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:47:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.06.19 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.154714.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

Hello Lowlanders, I do not know if any of you is interested in Secret
Languages like Rotwaelsch and Bargoens, but I found this reference on
another forum and thought you might be interested. It is written in Dutch,
but gives extensive information about the different vocabularies.

`De geheimtalen' van J.G.M. Moormann, editie Nicoline van der Sijs.
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/moor012gehe02_01/index.htm"

Groeten

Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle WA USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/af7dec9f/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 23:00:52 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:00:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (10) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.160052.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 10
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (04) [E]

 Dear Mark:

Subject: LL-L "Lists"

Referring to your observation in LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (01) [EN]:
"Speaking of father figures, Ron holds that distinction here on Lowlands-L
in my opinion.  Recently, I went to the Linguistlist site to see whether I
could find lists similar to Lowlands about other languages, and I couldn???t."

Seconded, from this I.T. illiterate. Otherwise I would go further & object
that I have found no lists similar to ours on any other subject. Certain
sure if there was anything on a par with it covering such matter as
mythology I would know. The best I can do in that line is read Frazer &
Terry Pratchett.

Daniel Defoe put these words in Robinson Crusoe's mouth, 'Mathematicks is
the mother of all crafts.' No less truly is Language the mother of all
wisdom. You can see it flowing out from all the letters & incidentally
particularly Ron's, how so straightened a base as Lowlands Languages draws
into its ambit minutiae of the sciences at several removes from speech as
such. & (considering his response to your letter, making only passing
mention of the celebrative days due this solstice) Ron is also very strong
on the fundamental mythos of our Lowlands Peoples, which is fine by me.

Yrs, Mark Dreyer.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/569dd31c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 22:58:10 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:58:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2009.06.19 (09) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.155810.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 09
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Taalerkenning

  Beste Leeglaanders,

Onderastaonde link betreft ienige schermutselingen in de Drentse
statencommissie Cultuur en Welzijn, angaonde een hogere erkenning van ???t
Nedersaksisch.

http://www.huusvandetaol.nl/content/view/342/1/

Arend Victorie

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/9266091c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 22:45:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:45:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.19 (07) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.19.JUN.2009.154533.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.18 (04) [NDS]

Beste Marcus,

Du schreyvst:

 Wenn di dat blot ??m mien Satz geiht, denn geev ik di recht. Dor harr
"Snack" veel beter passt as "Utdruck". Wenn di dat ??m dat Woord "Utdruck"
allgemeen geiht, denn kann ik achter mi wiesen op Reuter, Groth, Bo??dorf,
Frahm, Brinckmann un en ganze Reeg annere.
Aovers - finn'st ne ouk, wat "Utdruck" sou 'n beten nao 1:1-??versetten r??kt?
Eyn Doun't, wokeyn dat all bruukt hett - dat *is* doch all 'n
(houghd????tsche[n]) Metapher un' terminus technicus.
Ick versoyk j??mmers, sou 'n Kraom weg tou laoten, woans dat man j??st eben
gayht (...un' bruuk sylbst denn doch faoken 'nough ouk sou 'ne Woyr ;-)).

Allerbest!

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090619/a532b1e4/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 20 17:38:38 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:38:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.20 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.103838.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.18 (04) [DE-EN-NDS]

 Leve Joachim,

uff! :-)) Wedder packst Du en ganzen Barg in Din Mail, un ik warr vers??ken,
de enkelten P??nkt to w??gen.

Also, toeerst fallt mi wedder op, wa wenig ik vun de Spraakgeschicht
verstah. Dat Hanseplatt kenn ik bloots vun poor Faksimiles vun ole
Uurkunnen. Dat hett also en Genitiv un en Dativ geven? W????r as "'s avends"
heff ik j??mmers en beten scheel ankeken; ik heff nich ??ver nadacht, harr
avers so'n Gef??hl, dat dat ole Hochdeutschizismen weern!!! Da heff ik denn
ja totaal verkehrt leggen. Sachtens gifft dat gor keen Hochdeutschizismen,
de so oolt s??nd, oder? Wa oolt is de ??llste Hochdeutschiszismus in Platt?

Nu is dat avers so, dat de allermehrsten Plattsnackers den pd. Dativ un
Genitiv nich kennt. In ehr Platt, dat se (vun Kind an, in poor wenige F??ll)
lehrt hebbt, k??mmt dat nich v??r un warrt ok nich n??dig brukt. Dat is nich
"ehr" Platt. De Fraag is wedder, kriggst d??sse Plattsnackers dorto, solk
Formen to bruken? Un j??mmers noch, wor??m schullst dat vers??ken? Man da will
ik noch wieder nerrn op kamen.

 Liekso mit dat, wat Du vun dat "sch" vertellst. Is "sal" ??ller, originaler
as "schall"? In den Tungslag, den ik kenn, warrt dat "-tion" t.B. in
"Information" in en eenzigen, weken, breden Zischluud verwannelt:
"Informaschoon". So schriff ik dat ok, un ik harr bether dacht, dat weer
bes??nners plattd????tsch. Denn jedereen kennt doch dat, wat he/se h????rt hett,
as "dat oginaale Platt"!

Bi de schrievtechnischen un grammatischen Details b??n ik gau afhangt, un
wenn ik afhangt b??n, warr ik groott????gsch :-) (Ha! "Groott????gsch" is in
d??sse Schrievwies en Woort, 'neem 3 Duppelluden direktemang opnanner folgt!
Dat schall mal en anner Spraak namaken!) Dormit meen ik: Ji Fackl????d k????nt
dat maken, as Ji w??llt. Ik warr mi denn later mehr orr minner an hollen. Wat
Du vun de kotten un langen Vokaaln schriffst, l??cht mi in, un de Bremer
Schrievwies mit d??sse Dingsdas ??nner de Bookstaven is wohrschienlich en
Tortuur op'e PC-Tastatuur, alleen dorwegen b??n ik da liekso skeptisch as Du.
Dat mit dat ie f??r en langes i sitt us all vun't Hoochd????tsche her in de
Knaken, man wenn een "wat Niees" schrieven will, denn st????tt ja ok de
Nich-Westfalen op d??t Problem. (Utnahmen de, de "wat Nieges" orr "wat
Niedes" schrievt.) Also, vun de Details her stah ik so dorto:

1. De Schrievwies, da b??n ik verdreeglich un laat de Fackl????d gr??ttstendeels
maken. En eenheitliche Schrievwies is mi recht.

2. Wat de Grammatik is, da fangt min Skepsis al an. Wor??m den Dativ un
Genitiv inf??hren? Ik meen, de Grammatik vun en vereinheitlichtes Platt
schull so neeg an dat Platt vun h????t ween, as dat man even geiht.

Nich dat Du denkst, ik will en Fack-Menen gellen maken. Nee, ik gl????v, de
d??rsnittliche Plattsnacker warrt ganz liek reageern. Ut'n Buuk rut, as wi
vundaag seggt, also na't Gef??hl. Un dat entscheidt ja j??mmers.

Nu is da avers noch de ganze Fraag: Wor??m? Ik vers??ch mal, dat in Stichp??nkt
optoschrieven:

1. Du wullt sotoseggen en plattd????tsches Esperanto ut de ole Hansespraak
schaffen. Bruukt wi dat w??rklich?

2. Liek as Esperanto weer Din nieg-ole Spraak tos??ttlich to de egen
Platt-Dialekten, de de L?? in de Wahnstuuv usw. snackt. (Du schriffst "Dat
bruukte je nich (gliiks) de sprauke for de regionaalen vertellsels un
riimels to siin, auk nich de geliegenheytssprauke in de privaate
??nnerholleng van platsnackern hir un daar."). De niege Hoochspraak m????t se
also extra lehren. Dat mutt denn en heel goden Grund hebben. Hoochd????tsch
gifft dat ja al.

3. Du hest de Spraak v??rsehn as en Hooch- un Kultuurspraak. Dat heet, Texten
in d??sse ganz niege Spraak m????t ganz nieg un extra f??r d??ssen Zweck schreven
warrn. Un bloots bi solk Gelegenheiten, as Du and????dst -- wenn n??mlich
??nnerscheedlich Plattsnackers to kulturellen orr wetenschaplichen Uttuusch
tohoopkaamt --, warrt d??sse Spraak snackt. Denn tohuus snackt ja jedereen
sin Dialekt.
Jungedi, kann en Spraak ??nner d??sse Bedingen leven? Esperanto hett dat
reinweg licht dorgegen!

4. Ik seh j??mmers noch nich, woso sogoor denn so en eenheitliche Hoochspraak
n??dig is. Dat r??kt mi allens to dull na Retorte. Ehr extra to lehren kost
Opwand; liek so lichtfarig k????nt de ??nnerscheedlichen Plattsnackers ehr
*passives* Plattverstahn orrig breder maken, dat se een den annern in sin
Heimatdialekt verstaht. *Aktiv* snackt denn jedereen sin egen Dialekt, den
de anner passiv versteiht. Dat weer ??m un bi dat, wat ik mi ??nner de
praktische "Standardveelfalt" v??rstelln do.

5. Wenn Hoochspraak, wor??m tor??chgahn in de Hansetied? De pd. Spraak hett
sik doch entwickelt, is wiedergahn, un dat nich bloots divergent in mennig
Dialekten; nee, se hebbt ok Gemeensames, dat nieger is as de Hansespraak.
Dat schull bibehollen warrn, denk ik. En eenheitliche Spraak, wenn
??verhaupt, schull so neeg an de aktuellen Platt-Dialekten ween, as dat man
even geiht!

6. Mit welk Argumenten wullt Du d??sse niege Spraak popul??r maken? Du
schriffst: "Dat h??nk daarvan af, of dat genoug "affacionados" gift, d??sse
sprauke nich blaut wi??gen de d????nekes un de gem????tlikheyt liewet, man auk
wiils en kultuursprauke met niwoo was un de man nich unnergaunen lauten wil.
". Vun Unnergahn kann avers keen Reed nich ween, denn de niege Spraak is ja
ganz frisch. Dat "Konservierungs-Argument", dat faken f??r dat Platt vun h????t
in't Feld f??hrt warrt, gellt also da nich.

7. Du kannst mit Recht seggen, dat de enkelten Dialekten un ehr Veelfalt f??r
L??, de Pd. nieg lehren w??llt, en H??rde s??nd un ehr biester maken k????nt.
Avers wenn de L??, de "Platt" lehren w??llt, staats en Dialekt de Hoochspraak
lehrt, lehrt se denn wat, wat in de Wahnstuven gor nich snackt warrt. Dat
helpt ehr ok nich wieder.

Alltohoop meen ik, dat Hanseplatt is wiss en faszineern Saak, avers ik b??n
nich vun Menen, dat en eenheitliche pd. Snack so bitter n??dig deit un wenn
doch, dat de olen Foormen us da dull wiederhelpen w????rn. En levige
nedderd????tsche Hoochspraak finnt wi an'n ehesten in de Nedderlannen. Ik w????r
ehrder da henkieken, avers de Veelfalt vun pd. Dialekten mag ik ok denn nich
recht opgeven. Wenn wi de Dialektveelfalt in en Starkde verwanneln kunnen,
weern wi veel wieder.

Hartlich!

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language planning

Leve L????d',
Na mien Versch????l is dat Planen vun d??t un dat Woord nich vun groot Belang.
Dat bringt villicht mehr Nadelen as V??rdelen vun w??gen dat "noordd????tsche
Stuurhaftige" ("So snackt *wi* nich!"). So lang as man de Schriefwies'
??verregionaal un konsequent is (eendoont of up 'n hanseaatsche Wies' [as ik
't ??nnen wies'] or nich) un de Dialekten nich doot maakt -- un dat weer
sch????n, wenn us L????d' in de Nedderlannen mit bedacht w????rn -- v????l, v????l
schr??ven ward un de Minschen annere Dialekten h????rt un l????st, so kann Allens
lichtfardiger in sien Spoor kamen. So as in't Nynorsk vun Noorw??gen kann
denn elk Spr??ker un elk Schriever sien egenen neen W????r as V??rsl????g' bruken.
Annere Spr??kers un Schrievers n??hmt sik denn an, wat j??m toseggt, un
bil??tten k??mmt 'n Slag "soft standard" up de Been. So hett 't bi all de
Standardspraken anfungen. Dat is so wat as "organic growth".
Gr??tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Leyve luyd',
Na myn verscheel is dat planen vun d??t un dat wourd nich vun groot belang.
Dat bringt villicht meyr nadeylen as v??rdeylen vun wegen dat "nourdduytsche
stuurhaftige" ("So snakt *wi* nich!"). So lang as man dey schryvwys'
??verregionaal un konsekwent is (eyndound of up 'n hanseaatsche wys' [as ik
't hyr wys'] or nich) un dey dialekten nich dood maakt -- un dat weyr
schoyn, wen us luyd' in de Nedderlanden mit bedacht woyrden -- veel, veel
schreven wardt un dey minschen annere dialekten h????rt un leest, so kan
allens lichtvardiger in syn spour kamen. So as in't Nynorsk vun Nourwegen
kan den elk spreker un elk schryver syn eygenen neyen woyrd' as v??rsleeg'
bruken. Annere sprekers un schryvers neemt sik den an, wat j??m tou-segt, un
by l??tten k??mt 'n slag "soft standard" up dey beynen. So het 't by al dey
standardspraken an-vungen. Dat is so wat as "organic growth".
Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/9d6fcb1b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 20 17:40:37 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:40:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.20 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.104037.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "idiomatica" 2009.06.19 (07) [NDS]

Hallo Jonny un Marcus un alltohopen,

nu mell ick mi hier ok noch tau Wuurt.
Ick w??rd ok leiwer "Snack" seggen. Un nu noch dit:
Wossidlo/Teuchert: (Duntaumalen ok all Ausdruck : Utdruck  1 : 1 seggt, wiel
 sei't nich b??ter w????ten.
Utdruck m.
1. Ausdruck a.Wort:* fr??her s??den wi Pundbeeren, h??t heit dat Tafelbeeren,
h??t kriggt dat all 'n b??tern Utdruck. *SchwDamb; *jedes D??rp hett sinen
Utdruck un ok binah sin Sprak *LuNiend.  b. sprachliche Formulierung: *ick
kenn dor keinen Utdruck oewer *kann die Sage nicht erz??hlen, kann mich nicht
ausdr??cken SchwKlad;
2. Eindruck: *dat maakt keinen Utdruck *Sch??Carl; *ick segg' ??mmer, wer
vertellen will, m??t ok leigen koenen, s??s hett dat keinen Utdruck *MaBas.
Zs. *Huskittelmannsutdruck. *
Ick w??rd ok seggen *Snack, as man so seggt, as dis Oort (Ausdruck) noch
beg??ng' wier, ick w??rd dit Wuurt (Ausdruck) so, as dat nu k??mmt utd??den (un
denn verklorst du dat).*
Das Wort Ausdruck/Utdruck kann auch ein Manuskript/Ausdruck sein, denn Druck
kommt von dr??cken.
utdr??cken 1. trans. a. durch Dr??cken von einer Fl??ssigkeit befreien: Bei der
Schafw??sche *ward mit de rechte Hand de Wull utdr??ckt *MaStav. b. dr??ckend
ausf??llen: *dat H??wt von de Hark w??rd' mit Wa?? utdr??ckt *mit farbigem Wachs
in eingeschnitzten Vertiefungen verziert Sch??Grev.

"Plattdeutsch-hochdeutsches W??rterbuch" von R. Herrmann-Winter:
Utdruck m. Ausdruck (sei hett sick dat m??nnigmal tau licht makt, un wi
sitten nu mit an...)

Ick heff mi nu up mien Oort k??nnig makt (ausgedr??ckt).

Denn "dr??ckt" juug man richtig ut, wenn 't noch "gedruckt" *druckt *warden
sall. Woans heit nu <drucken> up Platt?   *druckt *...

Na ja, denn man tau.

Best' Gr??uten.
De Ollsch mit de L??cht, de de L????d bedr??ggt/bedr??cht.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/88060a05/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 20 17:44:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:44:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2009.06.20 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.104426.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

Also, happy Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice respectively to all of you
to whom these matter!????? Happy *Sankt Hans aften* in Denmark, *Jaanip?????ev *in
Estonia, *juhannus* in Finland, *Sankthansaften* in Norway,
*Midsommarafton*in Sweden,
*Noc ?????wi????toja?????ska* especially in Northern Poland, and many variants of
Midsummer festivals in Britain, Ireland and Man, to name but a few. It is
also the beginning of the month-long *????????????????????????? ?????????????????????* (White Nights)
for our friends in Russia.


Speaking of Russia: Today, a branch of the world famous Hermitage-museum
opened its doors in Amsterdam.

http://www.hermitage.nl

At a conference, Medvedev said that Russia was willing to drastically reduce
its number of nuclear weapons. One would almost believe that culture is not
only able to melt people's hearts...but even steel ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/7b3b9866/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 00:23:17 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:23:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.20 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.172317.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

As you may have noticed, mail delivery has been strange lately, beginning
from the time when our hosts installed new servers. Some of the mailings
arrive very late (I just got one I sent ca. 24 hours ago) and some seem not
to arrive at all, or not everyone receives them. All of them seem to arrive
in the archive, however (
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html).

I have reported this to our hosts and sent them samples in the hope that
they can figure out and remedy whatever is amiss.

I am sorry about any inconvenience this has been causing you.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/b491c023/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 05:45:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:45:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Obituary" 2009.06.20 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUN.2009.224548.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Obituary

Dear Lowlanders,

I am sorry I have to share with you the obituary message below.

Many among you no doubt remember Reuben Epp and all his great knowledge
about Mennonite Low Saxon (*Plautdietsch*) he shared with us over the years.
I remember him with fondness and was fortunate enough to meet him in Canada
a few years ago. He was a true gentleman and a kind friend. My thoughts are
with his loved ones, and with the many other friends and fellow students he
made over many years.

Reuben translated and narrated our Anniversary story in Melochna
Plautdietsch:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/molochna.php

I have updated the Wikipedia articles about Reuben.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Epp
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Epp
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruben_Ap

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

From: Cory Epp <kelowna.kid at telus.net
Subject: Memorial for Reuben Epp*

It is with deep sadness that the family of Reuben Epp must inform you of his
passing on June 20, 2009. A memorial service will be held at First Mennonite
Church, 1305 Gordon, Kelowna, BC on Saturday, June 27, at 2 PM. A musical
prelude will commence at 1:30 PM. We hope that you will be able to join us
in honouring our beloved father, grandfather, great-grandfather and husband.
*

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090620/27b5b77c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:10:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:10:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.21 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.121047.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

Yesterday I wrote the following:

As you may have noticed, mail delivery has been strange lately, beginning
from the time when our hosts installed new servers. Some of the mailings
arrive very late (I just got one I sent ca. 24 hours ago) and some seem not
to arrive at all, or not everyone receives them. All of them seem to arrive
in the archive, however (
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html).

In the meantime, a few of the mailings have arrived in my private mailbox.
Others have not yet arrived, but among them is one to which I already
received a response from one of you. So there appears to be some sort of
spotty back-up situation.

This may mean one of two things: (1) the server does not distribute mailings
as it should, especially during the past three days or so, or (2) the
problem has nothing to do with the server but is due to problems in email
transmission.

If 2 is the case I wonder if it has anything to do with the scramble to get
large volumes of messages out of and into Iran, considering problems related
to governmental communication blocks and innovative ways to circumvent them,
considering also the large number (400,00+) Iranian Americans, especially in
Southern California and in other locations here on the American West Coast,
not to mention large numbers of expatriate Iranians in Europe.

Talking about such, I am sure I speak for every Lowlander when I say,
irrespective of politics, that I hope our subscribers in Iran and their
friends and families are safe, also friends and families of our subscribers
with roots in Iran. I have checked with my Iranian friends that live outside
Iran, and all of them are quite worried. However the current situation is
going to play out, I hope that reason and compassion will prevail.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/d9c6d0bc/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:12:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:12:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Obituary" 2009.06.21 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.121246.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de|>
Subject: LL-L "Obituary" 2009.06.20 (05) [EN]

Lieber Ron,

auch ich nehme mit tiefem Mitgef?hl Anteil und h?rte nachdenkend seine mir
vertraut gewordene Stimme. Die Stimme von Reuben Epp
"De Tuunkjeenig". Ich h?rte ihm immer gern zu.

Hannelore
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/1552d3c1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:15:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:15:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.21 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.121520.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de|>
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.20 (01) [NDS]


Leiw' Fr??nn',

ob mien Gedanken hier so rinpassen, weit ick nich so recht, oewer Ron kriggt
dat all hen.

Wecker kennt noch Gerd L??pke (ein Perfesser mit hoge Verdeinsten). Ein deipe
Fr??ndschaft mit dat Schriewer-Poor Gerd un Irmgard (Greif-L??pke) h??llt ??mmer
noch; nu mit sien Wittfru.

Wat de Grammatik angeiht, later noch nahdenkern W????r.

G. L??pke  ut Varel schrew 6. Mai 2000 an mi (Str??mel ut dissen Breif):

Un k??mmt noch tau, dat ick giern an Di schrieben dau.
Nu ??ver tau Dienen Breif. Inga is stolt as son Hahn - nee, as son Kluck up'n
Me??, ind??m ehr Geschicht Di so gaud gef??llt un Du Di dor so v??l Gedanken ??m
makt hest:
Ick mein, Du hest dat b??ten tau dull mit de klauken V??rschriften, Hanning.
Wossidlo hett ganz, ganz grote Verdeinsten, dat is klor, ??wer'n Minsch wier
he ok man. V??rschriften wat de Formen angeiht, s??nd n??dig un k??nen Holt
g??ben. ??wer de Gedichten maken wi! Wi un nich de klauken Theoretiker. Un
wenn wi de Formen kennen un meinen, wi m????ten dor ??wer weg - w??gen de Saak,
w??gen dat Gedicht un dat, wat dat seggen will un sall - denn hebben wi dat
Recht, uns dor ok ??wer wegtausetten. Dichtung l??wt - ??wer Formen s??nd man
dat Skelett - un dat kannst b??gen. ??wer wenn Dichtung l??ben sall, denn m??t
Fleisch un Blaut up dat Skelett. Un dat k??mmt nu mal von uns. Ick weit, dat
willen v??le von de klauken Akkemickers nicht weiten - ??wer dat s??nd denn ja
ok man blot de Eunuchen, de woll weiten, woans dat makt warden m??t, de dat
??wer s??lben nich k??nen. So v??l tau de Theorie.
Ick pack Di mien Basha-Essay mit in. Denn ja ok noch mal mien eigen Haiku
"Lotos und Weidenbaum" tau'n Ankieken, wenn Di ok de intressieren daun. M??st
denn man seggen. (Ende)

Wi hebben jeden S??nndag per Quasselstripp vertellt. As wi up de Grammatik
tau snacken k??men, s??d hei: Hanning, mak dat nich tau dull mit de Grammatik,
mit ehr maken wi uns Sprak  kaputt.

Un dor is v??l an wohr. Bi mien' V??rg??nger (ein hd. un nd. Schriftsteller)
s??nd de "Erwachsenen", Lehrer, ??rzte, Hausfrauen usw. usw. nah ein Semester
nich wedderkamen. Sei harden de N??s' vull, ja, sei s??nd weglopen 1977/78.
Denn hett de Direkter von de VHS (feinen Kierl) so lang mit mi r??mmegummelt
(gebettelt), un ick s??d tau. Un woans ick de Saak angahn b??n, dat is ein
anner Geschicht.

Ick heff 27 Johr (nebenberuflich) un nu noch 3 Johr (ut Freud) mit de
Mitmakers wierermakt, un so sall dat blieben. Probleme, wat de Grammatik
ang??ng, man blotsen
bi de Konjugation Pr??sens as Bispill: ick gah, du geihst, hei sei dat (et)
geiht, wi gahn (so heit dat hier), ji gaht, sei gahn. Fief bet teihn Minuten
un nich l??nger... s??ss...oha.
Un wenn wi Reuter, Brinckman, Groth, Bellmann, ok R. Hahn l????st hebben,
also mit de Kl??r von ehr Platt, denn hett dat ofteins heiten "...  bi uns
Tauhuus seggen wi dat ganz anners", un dat m??ten ann??hmen un jeder hett't
veertellt. Ick wull man seggen, wer uns' Spraak snackt, de kann ok de Kl??r
von anner pd. Spraken bestens verstahn. Dor m??ten wi gor nich sov??l ??mst??nn'
mit maken, dat f??uhlt man doch gliek.

In de iersten Johrn bi de VHS haar ick so an 25 Mitmakers
(Fortgeschrittene), un  bi de
Anf??nger binah so v??l. Heff je noch all' de Listen un Lihrprogramme, man de
m????t ick ok noch utklam??sern, wiel 't hier noch kein g??w. Un ahn  PC, man
blot mit ein klapperig Schriewmeschin, wat'n h??t nich mir gl??wen will usw..
Un denn gew't nich dat "Durchschlagpapier", wat hetten sick dunnmals afqu??ln
m??ten.
(Un denn noch de Bang v??r gewisse Aportendr??ger.)

Dit is nu mien Wuurt taun S??nndag.
Wi m??ten mihr an dat Bestahn von uns' Spraak denken.

Von Harten mien Gr??uten.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/9d1eb60b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:17:02 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:17:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.21 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.121702.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 04
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language planning" 2009.06.20. (01) [NDS]

Nu krieg ick jug up alle F??lle bi denn' Fall

Hallo all' Fr??nn',

in ein Antiquarirat Halle/Saale heff ick glieksens nah dit Bauk gr??pen (noch
v??r de  Wenn' ??m 1970-?):

Niederdeutsche B??cherei Band 126
Paul Br??cker
*Kleine Wort=und Formkunde des Plattdeutschen*
Dith synt de Kennewarden van Richard Hermes Verlag tho Hamborch an de Elve
(Symbol mit Schimmel RHV)
Richard Hermes Verlag / Hamburg 1938
Druck: Richard Hermes Druckerei, Schwerin i.M.

Ein Lehr= und Lernb??chlein

*3. Stunde:*
Das Hauptwort: Geschlecht - Mehrzahlbildung - Fallf??hrung.

*Fallf??hrung:*
In der gesamten plattdeutschen Fallf??hrung sind die vier F??lle auf zwei
F??lle zusammengelegt. Es gibt einen  N e n n f a l l (hd. 1. Fall) und einen
F o r m f a l l (hd: 2., 3. und 4. Fall). - (Vom alten 2. Fall bestehen noch
Reste: M??llers Huus - M??llers Haus,  v??r Jaarstiet - vor Jahres Zeit usw.) -
Die einzelnen Formen des Formfalles sind die ehemaligen Formen des 4. oder
3. Falles.
Alle  V e r h ?? l t n i s w ?? r t e r  regieren den Formfall. - Sie
kennzeichnen das engere Fallverh??ltnis, ob Wes=, Wem= oder Wenfall. -
??berhaupt ergibt sich das Fallverh??ltnis aus dem Zusammenhang.
Nennfall: de Mann der Mann   de Frou die Frau   dat Kind das Kind
Formfall: den Mann dem Mann   de Frou der Frau   dat Kind dem Kind
Nennfall: de L????d   die Leute
Formfall: de L????d   den Leuten
                                 die  Leute

Als schwache Fallf??hrung besteht (wie im Hd.) im Formfall/Einzahl m??nnlich
die Endung =en:  den Grafen     den Grafen
          den Blinnen    den Blinden

Dor hebben sick noch mihr 'n Kopp oewer denn' *Fall *makt, un m??nnigein is
mit sien Grappen foll'n.

Noch 'n sch??nen un sinnigen S??nndag.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/4cef9b87/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 19:34:36 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:34:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.21 (05) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.123436.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paddy Van Raepenbusch <paddy.vanraepenbusch at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16

To Diederik

Thanks for answering my queries on some potential of the origin of
"raepenbusch" and the links provided.

"...Indeed 'raap' is the modern Dutch word for turnip, Latin name 'Brassica
 rapa'. In Amsterdam we also have a street name "Rapenburg", so I thought
I'd
 try to find the etymology on that one as it could be related to your story.
 Bu googling for that I actually found a reference to the Flemish one as you
 mentioned:

 *Vanaf de Stuiver liep hij immers rechtlijnig door via het Sompelstraatje
 (tot na de tweede wereldoorlog nog in gebruik) langsheen het Goed te
 Zoetendale (nu F. Standaert) tot aan het Hof Rapenburg (Bos, E. Verschelde)
 om, de grensstraat Waarschoot-Zomergem volgend, verderop de hierboven
 aangehaalde aansluiting te verwezenlijken. In het landboek van 1798 werd
hij
 aangeduid als de ???Eekloosche voetweg???, wellicht de oudste verbinding tussen
 Eeklo en Gent. In de atlas van de buurtwegen van 1841 werd hij evenwel niet
 opgenomen, theoretisch toen reeds afgeschaft zijnde.*
 **...."

Best Regards
Paddy

----------

From: Paddy Van Raepenbusch <paddy.vanraepenbusch at googlemail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.16

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your reply.

"... It seems to me that the old *raepen* you're talking about is the
cognate of
 English "to reap".
 The *raepen* in Raepenbusch seems to be a noun in the plural, though...."

The relationship with the english word "to reap" makes sense as in old
dutch text, it is often used in the sense of "taking, gather, pick
up..etc"
It is also found in the figurative sense as in:
"Uyt een anders onvoorfichtighieyd kan men voor zig felven eene goede
les raepen."
And by association, ( I don't know what came first, the egg or the
hen),  between "raep" (=turnip) and the verb "raepen" (=
pulling,gathering).

I did also found a reference to a forest called "rappenbusch" in
germany (Schifferstadt), the german translation of "rappen" being
"black horse"! How this relates to the dutch "raepen" is another
story!

Best Regards
Paddy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Paddy!

At first I thought, "Forget about the *Rappen* thing." But then I thought,
"Hmm ... Wait a moment."

German *Rappe* (plural *Rappen*) means 'black horse' as you mentioned. It
comes from Middle German *rappe* 'raven'. (Modern Standard German has
*Rabe*'raven' but retained
*Rappe* 'black horse' as an archaism.)

Modern Dutch has *raaf* (phonemically /raav/) for 'raven' (plural *raven*).

Could it be that *raepen* as an older southern Dutch equivalent of
*raven*became fossilized in the name Raepenbusch, equivalent to what
would be
**Ravenbos* in Modern Standard Dutch? Are there any other instances in which
older southern /p/ is equivalent to modern standard /v/ (as in the German
case mentioned above)?

So, if this hypothesis holds any water, Raepenbusch could be analyzed as
"Raven(s)bush".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/1992c3e1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 01:03:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:03:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.21 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.180300.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 05
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.06.13 (06) [EN]

Hello there KarlRein,

 KarlRein <KarlRein at aol.com> wrote

Please give us some sentences as examples.

Just a couple of examples:
Ze vader es gestorven. Mar zene pa leeft nog.
Me breu komt morgen. Ze zuster kan nie meekomen. Heur moeder es ziek. Heur
vader es al langk gele??n gestorven
  The word 'moe' is treated as a feminine noun before the poss. pron. mijn
(men) and zijn (zen): e.g.  : Men/zen moe es in de kliniek. Neutral would
have been: me, ze. Before other possessive pronouns (ons (??:s), hun, uw
(oer) it wouldn't make any difference as neutral and feminine forms for
these pronouns are exactly the same.
 'Pa' is clearly masculine: Mene, oere (uw), heure, zene, onze (??:ze), hunne
pa.

As you will see, the situation is rathercomplicated .

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

In Getelands broer , moeder, vader en zuster are neutal when preceded by a
possessive pronoun. Pa en moe don't follow this rule. They are respectively
masculine and feminine.

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/c3fcaa2a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 01:56:02 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:56:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2009.06.21 (07) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.185602.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 07
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions"

De gemeente Herstappe (89 inwoners) aan de taalgrens ten zuiden van Limburg
is nooit kunnen fusioneren omdat ze valt onder een regime van
taalfaciliteiten.

Is dat verbranden van stro bij en bruiloft nog elders gebruikelijk?

Citaat uit url:
http://www.hbvl.be/limburg/herstappe/na-negen-jaar-nog-eens-een-bruiloft-in-herstappe-2.aspx
*20/06 Erik Robeyns (28) uit Herstappe en Marlutje Jackers (23) uit Val-Meer
geven elkaar vandaag het ja-woord. In Limburgs kleinste gemeente is dat
reden tot feesten voor het hele dorp: het is immers negen jaar geleden dat
er nog eens een bruiloft plaatsvond in de gemeente.*
*.... In Herstappe wordt veel volk verwacht aan het gemeentehuis en in de
Sint-Jan De Doperkerk. Bij een huwelijk worden er nog een aantal tradities
in ere gehouden, zoals centjes grabbelen na de viering en stro verbranden om
de boze geesten te verjagen.*

mvg,
Roger

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Hi, Roger and the rest of you Lowlanders!

Pardon me for switching over to English, Roger. This may be a topic some
people want to weigh in that do not read Dutch.

Roger cites a report about a tiny community on the edge of Limburg in which
the first wedding was celebrated in nine years. One of the old traditions
followed at the event was burning of straw to dispel evil spirits. Roger
asks if burning straw at weddings is a tradition in other areas.

To start off, I will have to go beyond the Lowlands and enter my usual, much
larger playground: Eurasia. I think that the straw part is incidental, that
the fire part is all important. Lighting fires for ritual cleansing purposes
is connected with ancient rituals found all over Central Asia all the way
south to parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and as far east as
Xinjiang (Eastern Turkestan) and Qinghai (??????, ???????????????????????????, K??ke Na??ur,
G??kde??iz), areas under Chinese power.

The tradition of fires at weddings is particularly wide spread among Central
Asians of Iranian and Turkic descent. It seems to belong to an areal
cultural feature that may have emanated from pre-Islamic Iranian cultures.
Among traditional Tajiks and various other Iranian-speaking peoples,
including those living on the eastern slopes of the Pamir Mountains in
China, also among traditional Uzbeks, Uyghurs and other Turkic peoples with
close Iranian ties, a bridebroom and his party fetch the bride from her
parents' home and take her on horseback to the bridegroom's parents' home;
before entering, the couple (with the bridegroom either leading the horse or
sitting on horseback in front of the bride) circumambulates a bonfire three
or more times. This cleansing ritual is required before the bride may enter
her new home.

Fire as a cleansing element plays an important role among traditional
speakers of Iranian languages. Its pre-Islamic importance can be witnessed
in Zoroastrianism where water (*apo*) and fire (*atar*) are elements of
ritual purity. Fire temples serve as strongholds of light and purity, and
there are several purifying rituals involving fire. Zoroastrianism has by
some been described as likely being a remnant of the oldest Eurasian
religion (not counting Shamanism, I suppose). The Iranian language group is
a branch of Indo-European (as is the Germanic group). The name Iran (*
(An)??r??n*) is etymologically connected with "Aryan" ("Noble", also the name
of the people that invaded Southern Asia from the north, the name later
misused by the Nazis).

Anyway, even though this may seem a bit farfetched at first thought, I
propose that it is possible that in Europe there are some remnant rituals
that originated in a more widespread, possibly Indo-European feature of fire
as a cleansing power. Who knows? Herstappe may be one of those places where
it survives.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/8d9f138d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 03:25:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:25:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2009.06.21 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUN.2009.202522.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 June 2009 - Volume 08
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

Roger cites a report about a tiny community on the edge of Limburg in which
the first wedding was celebrated in nine years. One of the old traditions
followed at the event was burning of straw to dispel evil spirits. Roger
asks if burning straw at weddings is a tradition in other areas.

To start off, I will have to go beyond the Lowlands and enter my usual, much
larger playground: Eurasia. I think that the straw part is incidental, that
the fire part is all important. Lighting fires for ritual cleansing purposes
is connected with ancient rituals found all over Central Asia all the way
south to parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and as far east as
Xinjiang (Eastern Turkestan) and Qinghai (?????????????,
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????, K??????ke Na?????ur, G??????kde?????iz), areas under Chinese
power.

The tradition of fires at weddings is particularly wide spread among Central
Asians of Iranian and Turkic descent. It seems to belong to an areal
cultural feature that may have emanated from pre-Islamic Iranian cultures.
Among traditional Tajiks and various other Iranian-speaking peoples,
including those living on the eastern slopes of the Pamir Mountains in
China, also among traditional Uzbeks, Uyghurs and other Turkic peoples with
close Iranian ties, a bridebroom and his party fetch the bride from her
parents' home and take her on horseback to the bridegroom's parents' home;
before entering, the couple (with the bridegroom either leading the horse or
sitting on horseback in front of the bride) circumambulates a bonfire three
or more times. This cleansing ritual is required before the bride may enter
her new home.

Fire as a cleansing element plays an important role among traditional
speakers of Iranian languages. Its pre-Islamic importance can be witnessed
in Zoroastrianism where water (*apo*) and fire (*atar*) are elements of
ritual purity. Fire temples serve as strongholds of light and purity, and
there are several purifying rituals involving fire. Zoroastrianism has by
some been described as likely being a remnant of the oldest Eurasian
religion (not counting Shamanism, I suppose). The Iranian language group is
a branch of Indo-European (as is the Germanic group). The name Iran (*
(An)????r????n*) is etymologically connected with "Aryan" ("Noble", also the
name of the people that invaded Southern Asia from the north, the name later
misused by the Nazis).

Anyway, even though this may seem a bit farfetched at first thought, I
propose that it is possible that in Europe there are some remnant rituals
that originated in a more widespread, possibly Indo-European feature of fire
as a cleansing power. Who knows? Herstappe may be one of those places where
it survives.


Fascinating. Ireland also has something similar. "Strawboys", who would also
attend weddings, dressed in straw. If they were welcome and hospitably
treated, upon returning, they would burn their straw hats. Otherwise, they
would hang them in the trees, in order to let the other villagers know what
kind of people the bride and groom were.

http://www.shantranex.com/danceworld/strawboys.html

Am wondering if the "Burning Man"-event in Nevada (and "Wickerman" in
Scotland) have not been influenced by this custom.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090621/7cbcf015/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 14:01:15 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:01:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.22 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUN.2009.070115.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2009 - Volume 01
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.06.19 (01) [EN]

Just got back from a Juhannus party in Finland!  Coldest and wettest one
anybody could remember, but a good time had by all.

Paul
Derby
England

From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Holidays

Dear Lowlanders,

I assume that quite a few of you will travel this weekend. This is why I am
sending these holiday greetings out early enough to catch most of you.

On behalf of everyone I wish all fathers, grandfather, great-grandfathers
and father figures on Lowlands-L happy Fathers' Day. Hopefully all of you
will have visitors and get phone calls, cards and email messages.

Also, happy Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice respectively to all of you
to whom these matter!??  Happy *Sankt Hans aften* in Denmark, *Jaanip????ev *in
Estonia, *juhannus* in Finland, *Sankthansaften* in Norway,
*Midsommarafton*in Sweden,
*Noc ????wi?????toja?????ska* especially in Northern Poland, and many variants of
Midsummer festivals in Britain, Ireland and Man, to name but a few. It is
also the beginning of the month-long *?????????????????????? ?????????????????* (White Nights)
for our friends in Russia.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090622/969a1717/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 21:57:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:57:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.06.22 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUN.2009.145747.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2009 - Volume 02
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: "Utz H.Woltmann" <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Moin alltohoop!

Vunmorgen hett dat Radio NDR 90,3 vermellt:

"Plattd????tsch Woort 2009

De maroden Geldm??rkte wirkt sik op de Sprook ut.
So is "Bankenmal????r" dat plattd????tsch Woort vun d??tt Johr worden.
Dat is bi de Reuter-Festspele in Mekelnborg ruutsuurt.
Een besten Snack is ook w??hlt worden.
De heet: Wenn Du nich weest, ob "mir", ob "mich", snack Plattd????tsch, denn
blameerst di nich."

http://www.ndr903.de/programm/platt/norichten/norichten956.html

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090622/cd8c1cb9/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 23:59:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:59:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.22 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUN.2009.165944.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

Sorry I keep bothering you with the ongoing email problems.

I wrote:

In the meantime, a few of the mailings have arrived in my private mailbox.
Others have not yet arrived, but among them is one to which I already
received a response from one of you. So there appears to be some sort of
spotty back-up situation.

This may mean one of two things: (1) the server does not distribute mailings
as it should, especially during the past three days or so, or (2) the
problem has nothing to do with the server but is due to problems in email
transmission.

If 2 is the case I wonder if it has anything to do with the scramble to get
large volumes of messages out of and into Iran, considering problems related
to governmental communication blocks and innovative ways to circumvent them,
considering also the large number (400,00+) Iranian Americans, especially in
Southern California and in other locations here on the American West Coast,
not to mention large numbers of expatriate Iranians in Europe.

In the meantime I (re)established a Lowlands-L email address (
lowlands at lowlands-l.net) and subscribed it as a control. The two mailings I
sent out to the List today were received at this address, not at my Yahoo
address.

This may mean that Yahoo is has been one of the problem, if not
*the*problem. I wonder if those of you that have Yahoo accounts are
having
similar problems. This may well be a problem related to the communication
scramble and all the back-ups to and from Iran. I heard that Yahoo messaging
is one of the prevalent communication methods in this current situation.

It would also help if those of you that have accounts elsewhere told me if
they have noticed gaps in the flow of LL-L mailings.

By the way, please feel free to use <lowlands at lowlands-l.net> as your
administrative contact with the List. In fact, I would prefer this since it
would keep apart postings and administrative matters.

Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090622/980d5489/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 24 15:01:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:01:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUN.2009.080107.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I'm intrigued by the Scots verb *coff* 'to buy' (ealier also 'to trade'),
past tense *coft*.  An earlier variant of 'to buy' in Scots is *cofe*, with
a long /o/, for the nominal form of 'buy', 'purchase', 'trade', 'bargain'.

Clearly it is related to words for 'to buy' in other Germanic languages. The
/f/ occurs in German *kauf-* and Yiddish *kouf- ~ koyf*, both meaning 'buy'.
Middle German has *kouf-*.

According to the *Oxford English Dictionary*, *coff* is likely to come from
Middle Dutch *c??p(en)*, namely from the past tense of older (and still
dialectical) Dutch *koft(e)* (now mostly *kocht(e)*) or the past participial
form, which however, would be *gekoft* (now *gekocht*).

In Low Saxon, the past tense form of *kop(en)* is *k??ff ~ koff* and the past
participial form is *k??ft ~ koft* (Middle Saxon *gekoft* ~ *gecoft*).

Of course it stands to reason that a Dutch connection be assumed,
considering Dutch shipping trade with Britain and Dutch-speaking immigration
to Britain, especially to Wales and Scotland. However, we mustn't forget
Saxon-speaking Hanseatic trade with the English and Scotland.

Earlier Scots also has the *coff* or *coffe* for 'dishonest rogue', also
'hawker', apparently from the canting word *coff* 'man', 'guy'. Might this
be connected with the word for 'buy' or 'trade', perhaps in the sense of
'trading partner'?

What cant? Is it Thieves' Cant (a.k.a. Rogues' Cant)? I suppose so, because
it has *cove* 'man', 'fellow'. I can't find a possible equivalent in Romany,
the most obvious source.

Any ideas on any of the above?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090624/17855d07/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 24 21:32:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:32:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUN.2009.143242.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (01) [EN]

Ron, you mention:
Earlier Scots also has the *coff* or *coffe* for 'dishonest rogue', also
'hawker',

Does that have anything to do with Dutch ???Schoft??? (an amoral, lying lowlife)
German Schuft?

Rain in the forecast,???.. please not today!
Jacqueline, Seattle, USA
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Jacqueline.

I believe that Dutch *schoft* and German *Schuft* 'despicable man',
'rapscallion', 'scoundrel', 'villain', ultimately go back to Hebrew *??ophe??*(
*shofet *??????????????) 'judge', probably imported via Yiddish and Rothwelsch
and/or Bargoens. I assume that it goes back to a secret jargon transmitter
like Rothwelsch because of the typical type of semantic shift expressing
disdain for the establishment and powers that be.

Hebrew *??ophe??* (*shofet *??????????????) is stressed on the second (i.e. final)
syllable, this being the predominant stress pattern in that language. It is
typical for Hebrew loans in Yiddish and other Germanic languages to receive
Germanic (penultimate) stress and for the unstressed final syllable to
undergo some sort of vowel reduction. The shift Hebrew *shof??t* > Yiddish **
shof(e)t*** * > *****shuft* is a predicable one.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: Talking about disdain ... yesterday I saw a bumper sticker saying
"Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed frequently ... for
the same reason."

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090624/b785165c/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 14:24:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:24:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUN.2009.072424.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (01) [EN]

Hi all,

Ron, what about coff being related to scoff as in scornful (Danish skuf)?

OED also gives scoff as supposedly derived from Afrik. schoff (sounds Dutch
to me!)
as in a meal eating period rather than a working period as we know it in
Afrikaans 'skof' (E. shift).

And so that brings me to onbeskof (rude), in die tuin rondskoffel (pottering
in the garden),
skoffel vir ure (dancing), and possibly skobbejak (brute).

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Elsie. Interesting ...

I have a feeling *skoffel* is related to English "shuffle", which is related
to Low Saxon *sch??ffel-* (with the same meaning), apparently related to
"scuffle", perhaps a frequentative form of a Scandinavian loan (cf. Swedish
*skuf-* 'to push', cf. Low Saxon *schuuv-* 'to push'). "Shuffle" has been
known since the 16th century and may well be a Middle Saxon loan due to
Hanseatic connections (**schuffel-*).

Low Saxon has cognates of *skobbejak*: *Schubbjack ~ Schubbejack ~
Schubberjack* 'rascal', 'scoundrel', 'scallywag'. I can't figure out its
etymology.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090625/0737f1e1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 16:03:56 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:03:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUN.2009.090356.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

Low Saxon has cognates of *skobbejak*: *Schubbjack ~ Schubbejack ~
Schubberjack* 'rascal', 'scoundrel', 'scallywag'. I can't figure out its
etymology.


Just an onset.

There seem to be at least two theories, but they probably converge. The
somewhat more official line sees "schobbejak" (D), "schubjack" (Saxon) as
"schobben" + "jak". The verb "schobben" ( ~ scab, scabies) means "to rub".
Note that "schubjack" is also a pole in the middle of a treeless meadow,
used by cattle with an itch. "Jak" = "Jack, jacket" < jaque (generic name
for a French medieval peasant > diminutive for the blouse he wore).

Schuwjack < szuja (Polish for a villain), suffix created in analogy with
"swienjack" (same meaning).

And then there's the Brabantish pronunciation with a long vowel "schobejak"
(not "schobbejak"). The word also denotes a tight fitting blouse made of a
very coarse fabric that was primarily used by longshoremen (dockers) and was
worn on top. This "schobe" goes back to Middle Dutch "schabbe/schobbe":
shabby ;=) smock.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090625/271ea2ee/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 19:59:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:59:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUN.2009.125942.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (01) [EN]

Ron, Elsie Re: Low Saxon has cognates of *skobbejak*: *Schubbjack ~
Schubbejack ~ Schubberjack* 'rascal', 'scoundrel', 'scallywag'. I can't
figure out its etymology.

Schubben in Dutch are the same as Scale in English. Would this be a slippery
person maybe. There are other examples of descriptions of persons with
qualities derived from animals.

I like f.i. ???ongelikte beer??? for an uncouth person. Jacqueline
----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (01) [EN]

Elsie:
Dutch schaft (meal break for workmen like in construction and so), frisian
skoft 'short period/break', antwerpian schoofzak, the bag in which the
workers/'arbeiders' take their usually wife-prepared lunch to work

Diederik

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090625/8cc014a1/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 22:24:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:24:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUN.2009.152406.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Andy Eagle <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (01) [EN]

Ron wrote:

 I'm intrigued by the Scots verb *coff* 'to buy' (ealier also 'to trade'),
>
past tense *coft*.  An earlier variant of 'to buy' in Scots is *cofe*, with
a long /o/, for the nominal form of 'buy', 'purchase', 'trade', 'bargain'.

 Clearly it is related to words for 'to buy' in other Germanic languages.
> The
>
/f/ occurs in German *kauf-* and Yiddish *kouf- ~ koyf*, both meaning 'buy'.
Middle German has *kouf-*.

 According to the *Oxford English Dictionary*, *coff* is likely to come from
>
Middle Dutch *c??p(en)*, namely from the past tense of older (and still
dialectical) Dutch *koft(e)* (now mostly *kocht(e)*) or the past participial
form, which however, would be *gekoft* (now *gekocht*).

 In Low Saxon, the past tense form of *kop(en)* is *k??ff ~ koff* and the
> past
>
participial form is *k??ft ~ koft* (Middle Saxon *gekoft* ~ *gecoft*).

 Of course it stands to reason that a Dutch connection be assumed,
>
considering Dutch shipping trade with Britain and Dutch-speaking immigration
to Britain, especially to Wales and Scotland. However, we mustn't forget
Saxon-speaking Hanseatic trade with the English and Scotland.

Apparently only the form coft was used originally, assumed to be from Middle
Dutch cofte the p.t. and p.p. of the v. copen, to buy. I imagine it was used
by Scots when haggling over the price of goods with Dutch (or Low Saxon)
traders, and when an acceptable price was mentioned, the Scots said 'coft'
i.e. 'bought' to let the seller know they had made a sale. It perhaps then
started to be used more widely as slang, eventually becoming part of the
general vernacular. Since many Scots verbs form the p.t and pp. with 't',
for example fuff > fufft, sauf > sauft, skiff > skifft, swarf > swarft, waff
> wafft etc., the back-formation 'coff' came about by analogy.

Andy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Andy. That's useful.

I have a sneaking suspicion we are talking about Low Saxon contact here,
perhaps very late Hanseatic when in the everyday language of some dialects
the past participial prefix *ge-* began to be dropped.

The reason why I say this is because I don't think you use the past tense in
sealing a deal; you use the past participial, as in a different context in
English "Done!" rather than "Did!" In German you would expect
**Gekauft!*rather than *
*Kaufte!* to mean something like "Deal!"

So in (Late Middle) Dutch I would expect **Gekoft!* (> **Gekocht!*), in
colloquial Northern (Late Middle) Saxon **Koft! ~ ***K??ft!*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090625/c2589519/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 15:21:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:21:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.082140.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (04) [EN]

There???s also Russian for ???to buy??? ??? *kupit???.*

Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, MD
-------------

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (03) [EN]

Hi all,

Diederik, the OED says about scoff: "...colloq. .....eat greedily
....food; a meal, [...f. Afrik. schoff repr. Du. schoft quarter of a day
(hence meal) : ...orig.var. of dial. scaff, assoc. with the noun]".

So the current Afrikaans meaning, denoting a period of work ('skof'),
relates to the Frisian meaning ('period') but the original dialectical
(scaff) is still prominent in a word such as 'werkskaf' (E. 'dawdle'
or 'dabble').

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.24 (02) [EN]

Leiw' Fr??nn',

ick hap, ick kam noch nich tau lat.

*Schuft *nd. Wort im Hd. Vgl. Schurke
*Schurke **Schurk *m. Pl. *Schurken. Syn  Schubbjack, Schuft, Beist,
Windhund, Kanallje, Lump *(Neues hd-pd W??rterbuch, R. Herrmann-Winter)
**
Nu Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*Schuft *m. Schurke a. Spr. lichtscheuer Raubritter: 'des Juncker Torcken
Schuffte'.
*Schuffjack,* Schuftjack s. *Schubjack.*
*schuftig *schurkisch
*Schubjack**  *(*u* kurz) m. Lausekerl; Schuft: *Schubjack *tr??ger und von
gewissen Tierchen gepeinigter Mensch. *Schuwwjack
(-bb-)*verachtungsw??rdiges Subjekt, mit Ungeziefer behafteter Kerl,
der sich immer
juckt;*  Schuwwjack *Schmutzfink Hans;
*Schubbjack *Lausekerl; *Schuwjack*  unsauberer Mensch; *Schubjack *schlecht
gekleideter Mensch, Schelm Sch??Dem;
*so'n Schubbejack von Kirl . . . negenklauk, hinnerlistig *Reut.: *'n groten
Schuffjack*  Ast; *de oll Schuffjack*  (Scheltname des Storchs).
In den Wbb. der nd. Nachbarlandschaften wird die Bedeutung 'ein Mensch, der
sich vor Unreinigkeit oder Ungeziefer mit (in) der Jacke schubbt (scheuert)'
angegeben: *Schubbejak. Schubbjakk, Schubbejack, Schubbiack.*
S c h u b j a c k e n  als Vogelscheuche im Winde hin und her wehen: *dat
schubbjackt ??mmer hen un her.*  s c h u b j a c k i g  lumpig gekleidet: *sonn
. . . schowjackige Ballastsch??wers*  Pl.  die Ballastschieber.

Na, nu langt dat woll.

Von Harten mien Gr??uten.
Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/02d4095b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 17:38:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:38:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.103842.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Hannelore,

You wrote:

*Schuffjack,* Schuftjack s. *Schubjack.*
*schuftig *schurkisch
*Schubjack**??????????*(*u* kurz)?????m. Lausekerl; Schuft: *Schubjack *tr?????ger und
von gewissen Tierchen gepeinigter Mensch. *Schuwwjack
(-bb-)*verachtungsw?????rdiges Subjekt, mit Ungeziefer behafteter Kerl,
der sich immer
juckt;*????? Schuwwjack *Schmutzfink Hans;
*Schubbjack *Lausekerl; *Schuwjack*????? unsauberer Mensch; *Schubjack *schlecht
gekleideter Mensch, Schelm Sch??????Dem;
*so'n Schubbejack von Kirl . . . negenklauk, hinnerlistig *Reut.: *'n groten
Schuffjack*????? Ast; *de oll Schuffjack*????? (Scheltname des Storchs).
In den Wbb. der nd. Nachbarlandschaften wird die Bedeutung 'ein Mensch, der
sich vor Unreinigkeit oder Ungeziefer mit (in) der Jacke schubbt (scheuert)'
angegeben: *Schubbejak. Schubbjakk, Schubbejack, Schubbiack.*
S c h u b j a c k e n????? als Vogelscheuche im Winde hin und her wehen: *dat
schubbjackt ?????mmer hen un her.*????? s c h u b j a c k i g????? lumpig gekleidet:
*sonn . . . schowjackige Ballastsch?????wers*????? Pl.????? die Ballastschieber.


Two frequently found Polish surnames seem to be related to this word:
Skubiak and Skobiak

Btw, I asked my dad how he pronounces the word, and his version goes like
"skubiak", meaning rascal (~ racaille, famous word that caused N. Sarkozy a
lot of trouble), whereas my mum says "schobejak", with the same meaning.

Schobiak is also the name of an old Flemish ship:

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/media/thumbnails.php?album=2361<http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/media/albums/ftp/tjlkn_allerlei_1/denoedenschobiak2005.jpg>

(Roland Desnerck may know it since the pix seem to be taken in Ostend)

And both of a Flemish squire and a beer dedicated to him in Ardooie:

http://www.saveur-biere.com/etiquettes-bieres/biere-skobiak.gif

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Since yesterday I have been thinking about a surname in this connection too,
Luc. But I've been thinking about Szubiak which is pronounced like Low Saxon
*Schubjack* ([??????bjak]).

Is this name "Polish Polish" or is it Kashubian or Slovincian? Does anyone
know?

Cze????!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/24f19a08/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 18:33:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:33:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.113314.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,
You wrote:

Since yesterday I have been thinking about a surname in this connection too,
Luc. But I've been thinking about Szubiak which is pronounced like Low Saxon
*Schubjack* ([???? ?? ??bjak]).

Is this name "Polish Polish" or is it Kashubian or Slovincian? Does anyone
know?


Geographical distribution of Szubiak:

http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/szubiak.html

I have a feeling that different words may have collided. Is Szubiak related
to Sawczak? Sawczak seems to be more popular (more evenly distributed), so
maybe Szubiak is a regional variant? Szubiak also exists in Slovakian, and
even some people in Hungary have this surname. Could Szubiak be a
germanisation of Sawczak?

Unfortunately, my Slavic knowledge is virtually zero.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/9bb0e48e/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 21:33:25 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:33:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.143325.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Andy Eagle <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.25 (04) [EN]

Ron wrote:

 I have a sneaking suspicion we are talking about Low Saxon contact here,
>
perhaps very late Hanseatic when in the everyday language of some dialects
the past participial prefix *ge-* began to be dropped.

I have a feeling there are quite a few Low Saxons loans from the Hanseatic
era. In etymologies they tend to be lumped together under (Middle) Dutch.

 The reason why I say this is because I don't think you use the past tense
> in
>
sealing a deal; you use the past participial, as in a different context in
English "Done!" rather than "Did!" In German you would expect
**Gekauft!*rather than *
*Kaufte!* to mean something like "Deal!"

 So in (Late Middle) Dutch I would expect **Gekoft!* (> **Gekocht!*), in
>
colloquial Northern (Late Middle) Saxon **Koft! ~ ***K??ft!*

DOST indicates that 'coft' came to be used commonly from around 1500. How
does that fit in with the Low Saxon pronunciation of the time?

Andy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Andy,

I have a feeling it fits, e.g. Middle Saxon:

*Dit is, wat ik **in de molen koft hebbe ...*
(This is what I *have bought* in the mill ...)

*... en man hadde acker koft ...*
(... and they *had bought* some agricultural land ...)
[Gadebusch Register 1451]

*... dat se dat gud vmme rede gelt koft hebben ...*
(... that they *had bought* the estate with cash ...)
[document from London's Steelyard (1303-1469]

So, **Koft!* for ("Bought!" =) "Deal!" seems entirely possible.

Around the same time *gekoft* occurs also, which seems to indicate that the
past participial prefix *ge-* was fading away in certain northern dialects.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/5654317b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 22:24:12 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:24:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.26 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.152412.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I wrote under "Etymology":

*... dat se dat gud vmme rede gelt koft hebben ...*
(... that they *had bought* the estate with cash ...)
[document from London's Steelyard (1303-1469]

In this context it's better to translate it "... that they had bought the
merchandise with (ready) cash ...".

We are talking about the Steelyard, a compound in London on the north bank
of the Thames by the outflow of the Walbrook, close to Cannon Street
Station. It was the Hanseatic Trading League's walled compound with
warehouses, offices, counting houses, weighing houses, a chapel and
residential quarters. As a regular church, the residents used
All-Hallows-the-Great, which was destroyed in the fire of 1666.

My dates were wrong. 1303 seems correct. Elizabeth I recinded the Hanseatic
privileges in 1598, because the merchants were much too successful and thus
competed with the city. James I reinstated them, but the Steelyard never
regained its greatness. It was never dissolved and officially functioned as
a sort of informal North German embassy to Whitehall until after the
Napoleonic Wars during whose European Blockade it came in handy. The
Hanseatic cities Hamburg, Bremen and L??beck appointed the Scottish merchant
Patrick Colquhoun to their resident minister and consul general while they
were being occupied by France until 1815. The three cities, that had shared
the Steelyard, sold the property in 1853, and Cannon Street Station was
built on that site in
1866.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelyard#cite_note-3>In 1988,
remnants of the Steelyard's trading house were discovered, and a
plaque now commemorates the site.

Other Hanseatic communities in Britain used to be located in Aberdeen,
Berwick upon Tweed, Boston, Edinburgh, Great Yarmouth, Hull, Ipswich, King's
Lynn, Newcastle and York.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/6f6f657d/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 26 22:25:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:25:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (06) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JUN.2009.152542.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (03) [EN]

Beste Ron un Luc,

hm, wat nu. . . Wat ick noch vermellen k??nn... ? Kiekt jug dat mal an:

*Schuft:* Das im 17. Jh. aus dem *Niederl. *ins *Hochd.* ??bernommene
Schimpfwort bezeichnete zuerst den heruntergekommenen Edelmann, dann
allgemein einen gemeinen, niedertr??chtigen Menschen. M??glicherweise ist es
zusammengezogen aus *niederl. Schufut *"Uhu; elender Mensch"  (18.Jh.) *mnd.
*sch??v??t "Uhu", einem urspr??nglich lautnachahmenden Wort. Der Name des
lichtscheuen, als h????lich verschrienen Vogels w??re dann auf den Menschen
??bertragen worden.
*Schurke* "B??sewicht, Schuft": Das erst seit dem 17. Jh. als Schurk[e],
Schork bezeugte *dt. *Substandtiv  (*niederl. *schurk, *schwed. *skurk sind
entlehnt) ist nicht sicher erkl??rt. Abl.: *Schurkerei *"schurkische Tat"
(17. Jh.;* schurkisch *"gemein, niedertr??chtig" (17. Jh.).
DUDEN Band 7  Etymologie DUDENVERLAG Mannheim/Wien/Z??rich1989

Mihr weit ick nu ok nich.

Gaud Nacht Lowischen (Kosewort: Luise), fief Pennings liggen up de Trepp'.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090626/0c10d037/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 19:31:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:31:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.27 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.123147.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.26 (05) [EN]

 Dear Reinhard, one curious question about "Steelyard": Did it have anything
to do with steel?! I looked it up on Wikipedia, but they say nothing about
the word's etymology, and the German Wikipedia spells the English version
"Stiliard" alternatively. I thougt (naively) that "Stalhof" had something to
do with stables. Wrong again? :-)

Hartlich!

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holstein)


----- Original Message -----
 *From:* Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>
*To:* LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
*Sent:* Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:24 AM
*Subject:* LL-L "History" 2009.06.26 (05) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology


We are talking about the Steelyard, ...

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Marlou!

And it's a good question, too.

Here is what the English Wikipedia says:

The Steelyard gave its name to a type of portable balance, consisting of a
graduated horizontal metal beam suspended on a chain. The whole balance
would be hung from a roof beam. A heavy object to be weighed, for instance a
sack of flour, would be hung on the shorter end of the beam, while lesser
but known weights would be slid along the other, longer end, till the beam
balanced. The weight of the sack could then be calculated by multiplying the
sum of the known weights by the ratio of the distances from the beam's
fulcrum.

The common non-English names -- German *Stahlhof*, Low Saxon *Stahlhoff*,
Dutch *Stalhof*, Russian *???????????????? ????????* -- refer to "yard" as "court" or
"courtyard", here in the sense of "compound". The English noun "steelyard"
denotes a weighing device, in which "yard" does not mean "courtyard". In
this case it was a large version of an ordinary steelyard balance (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelyard_balance), German *Handwaage* or *
Schnellwaage*, Low Saxon *??nzner* or* ??nstel*, Dutch *unster*, Russian *
????????????*.

So it seems to me that this is either a case of misunderstanding of "yard"
or a case of word play in naming the compound.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/fb9d511b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 19:33:16 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:33:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2009.06.27 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.123316.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.26 (04) [EN]

Liebe Freunde
(ich fasse mich kurz, mu?? noch *Englisch *lernen.)

"Ich habe mir etwas gekauft". "Ick heff mi wat k??fft". Was f??llt euch da
auf, richtig! Das Pr??fix *ge*

*k??pen, *Pr??s. *k??p, k??ffst, k??fft; *Pr??t. *k??fft* kaufen, Mi 45 a :(F.G.
Sibeth), W??rterbuch der Mecklenburgisch-Vorpommerschen Mundart, Leipzig
1876. Nachtr??ge im Handexemplar des Verfassers. - Stahl: Geschicht von den
rieken Hamborger Kopmann Peter Stahl. Schwerin 1870. Wossidlo/Teuchert.
mercari 'kopen' (1585); a. Spr. auch mit etwas handeln: 'nemant schal korn
kopen edder nenerleye kopenscop buten den doren, ere id kumpt over ene
twerstrate' (Ro: Stadt Rostock um 1475); sonst auch dingen, mieten:* he
hadd' 'n poor Berliner k??fft *als Dienstboten Wa: Stadt Waren; abkaufen: *sei
k??pen em all' 'n Bessen *WaJab: WarenJabel;*  ick heff mi hierher k??fft*
mich hier angekauft  LuWarl: LudwigslustWarlow; an einen Dummkopf:* k??p di
f??r 'n Schilling Insichten *RoRibn: RostockRibnitz;  *wat ick mi dorf??r
(Dank) k??p, st??k 'ck mi an 'n Haut* ist wertlos RostockBentwisch; mit refl.
Dativ:* sick einen k??pen* entweder sich betrinken, eig. sich einen (Rausch)
kaufen Sch??: Sch??nberg, oder sich jem. vornehmen, um ihn auszuschelten oder
mit Pr??geln abzustrafen RoKlock.: RostockKlockenhagen.
Zss. :* af-, be-, er-, haaker-, in-, los-, ut-, verk??pen.*
Aber: De Kop : der Kauf; Verkauf; de K??per Pl. : der K??ufer
Sto??seufzer: *is schad', dat dei besten K??pers ??mmer kein Geld
hebben*G??LTrech: G??strowLangenTrechow; von jem., der viele
Bauernstellen
besichtigt, ohne eine zu kaufen:*  dat is kein K??per, dat is 'n L??per *HaWitt:
HagenowWittenburg.

*kaken *kochen, die Speisen zubereiten; die Wichtigkeit dieser Arbeit
betont:*  wenn dat leiw' ??tenkaken nich wir, hadd' dat ganze D??rp an ein
Frugensminsch naug*  RoDierh: RostockDierhagen
*kaken, Flex Pr??s. ik kak, du kaakst, hei kakt, wi kaken; *Pr??t. *kakte,
kakten (kaakten);*
Part.Pr??t. *kakt (kaakt).*
**
Ende. "Ick m??t an 'n Hierd ! "    (Dat r??ckt all so anbrennt...)

(Wossidlo/Teuchert und eigene Sammlung)

Herzliche Gr????e.

Hanne-Koeksch (K??chin)

----------

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Pr??fix *ge*

Liebe Freunde,

oft kleiden wir in nd. Sprache ein Wort mit der Vorsilbe *ge . . .*
**
*ge- *untrennbare Vorsilbe, as. *gi-, *mnd.* ge-,* fehlt der lebenden
Mundart im Gegegensatz zum Mnd. und Hd. g??nzlich im  P a r t.  P e r f. der
Verben, abgesehen von einigen zu Adjektiven gewordenen Partizipien
wie *geduwwelt, -l??gen, -lihrt, -stuukt, -tacht,* tritt, zum Teil unter hd.
Einflu??, in V e r b e n auf wie *geb??ren, -biren, -b??hren, -d??ren, -fallen,
-neiten, -raden, -r??en, -s??gen, -wennen *und ist ungemein h??ufig in
S u b s t a n t i v e n: *a. *ein Zusammensein ausdr??ckend in m??nnlichen
W??rtern wie *Gebuer, -m??hl, -not, -sell, -sinn', -vadder, -vedder ;*
*b. *Gleichartiges zusammenfassend in Neutren wie *Gebein, -bl??um, -bl??ut,
-dirm, -fack, -h??ls', -h??s', -kr??us', -kr??ter, -l??g', -l??us', -m??us',
-m??bel, -riff, -sling', -smuck, -s??ff, -st??uhlt, -t????gs, *oft in Anlehnung
an Verben wie in *Geback, -dr??nk, -lat, -p??ck, -r??st, -schirr, -spann;*
*c.*  das Ergebnis einer T??tigkeit oder eines Vorgangs bezeichnend wie
in*Gebackels, -brugels, -m??l, -rankels, -sm??ltes, -sp??ukels, -swulst,
-sw??r ;
**d. *unmittelbar von Verben gebildet, Wiederholung oder Dauer ausdr??ckend,
bes. von Ger??uschen und Bewegungen, oft mit *tadelnden* Nebensinn, z.B. *Ge??t,
-barm, -bauz, -beier, -blaff, -b??lk,*
*-brawwel, -brensch, ....-strid', -sw??ug, -tagel, -tas'; **e. *verst??rkend
oder verallgemeinernd in gelegentlichen Bildungen wie *Ger??densoort,
Ger????mlichkeit, Gestift; **f. *als Abschw??chung unbetonter Anfangssilben in
W??rtern wie *Geb??ff *aus *Kab??ff, Get??ffel *aus *Kant??ffel, Gest??m
*aus *Kost??m;
*seltener in  A d j e k t i v e n , teilweise in Anlehnung aus Hd.,
wie *gemein,
-nau, -recht, -ruhig, -sund, -troost,*
*-tru, -tutig,; gepackt *ist Umbildung von *kompakt. *A u s f a l l  d e s
V o k a l s  der Vorsilbe ist wie im Hd. nicht selten vor *l; *z. B. *glik,
*woneben *lik *noch sehr gebr??uchlich ist und fast stets *liker, likers,
likerst *(dennoch) und *liksterwelt *(ganz gleich, genau so); *glinn',*woneben
*gelinn' *und *linn' *auftreten: *Glow', Globen, gl??ben *neben *l??ben; *vor
*n*  in *Gnad', Gnick; *vor *r *in *grad'; *??berwiegend ohne Vorsilbe sind
in Gebrauch *L??us' *(Geleise) und *Lenk *(Gelenk) wie auch sonst, namentlich
in ??. Spr., vielfach noch Wortformen ohne die Vorsilbe auftreten.

Ick heff dat *Geblaff * von Nahwers Hunn' satt.

Jug alltohopen 'n sinnigen (besinnlichen) S??nndag.

Hanne

(Dit all bi w??glang mit Wossidlo/Teuchert)

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/7ed22b05/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 20:08:25 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:08:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.27 (03) [AF]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.130825.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: dealangeam <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: ?? LL_L "Etymology" [A]

Beste Ron en Laaglanders,

Ron skryf:

>So, *Koft! for ("Bought!" =) "Deal!" seems entirely possible.

>Around the same time gekoft occurs also, which seems to
>indicate that the past participial prefix ge_ was fading away
>in certain northern dialects.

In Afrikaans het 'n baie interessante ontwikkeling plaasgevind.
As kind het ek gehoor hoe ou mense (van Voortrekker afkoms)
'n verhaal begin met "Toe ....". Daarna is die verlede tyd in die
verhaal vervang met die teenwoordige tyd. Die "Toe...." het as
'n tyd merker in die verlede gewerk.

Hier is 'n voorbeeld:
(1) Die verhaal in die verlede tyd.
Ons het die grond gekoop. Daarna het ons 'n huis daarop gebou.
Vervolgens het ons meubels daarin geplaas. Ons het uiteindelik
ingetrek.
     (2) Die verhaal met die "Toe...." merker.
     Toe koop ons die grond. Ons bou 'n huis daarop. Ons plaas
     meubels daarin. Uiteindelik trek ons in.

Voordele
Spaarsamiger woord gebruik
(1) 22 woorde
     (2) 18 woorde
Lewe
(1) Die verlede is dooierig
     (2) Die verlede bly lewendig
Oorsaak en gevolg
(1) Noodsaak voltooide verlede tyd indien nodig om verder
terug te gaan in tyd
     (2) Gebruik bloot die verlede tyd
Struktuur en funksie
(1) Naamwoorde word selde as werkwoorde gebruik en
omgekeerd. Dieselfde geld vir bywoorde van naam- en
werkwoorde.
     (2) Omruiling van naamwoorde en werkwoorde asook
     hulle bywoorde vind veel gemakliker plaas.

Die tyd merker vir die toekoms is "So....".
Met hierdie twee tydmerkers kon altesaam 9 verskillende tye
uitgedruk word deur net drie eenvoudige tye te gebruik:
verlede, hede en toekoms. Hoe kragtig is dit nie!

Hier kom die gatslag. Op laer- en ho??rskool is ons verbied om
verhale en verslae te begin met "Toe...." en "So....". Dit was glo
slegte Afrikaans. Vir my was dit so onnodig. Maar ek kon al die
straf uiteindelik nie meer verduur nie. Ek het opgehou om die
twee tydmerkers te gebruik. Dit het deur dwang uitgesterf.
???n Mens hoor dit nie meer nie, behalwe in die verafgele??
platteland.

Eers in die 1980's het ek begin vermoed dat Afrikaans 'n
ontluiking ("emergence") was van die 1600's se Hollands en
Nederduits. Die gangbare veronderstelling van taalkundiges was
dat Afrikaans eerder 'n dialek van vereenvoudigde Nederlands
is. Dit is nog steeds so. Maar net so erg is ek meer oortuig dat
Afrikaans eerder 'n ontluiking was.

Ron, jy en ander Laaglanders het soveel ou geskrifte om die
evolusie van die tydmerkers "Toe...." en "So...." te kan nagaan
in al die laaglandse tale. Ek verneem graag met tyd julle
vermoedens, menings en bevindings. Miskien versterk dit my
oortuiging dat Afrikaans 'n ontluiking eerder as 'n kreolisering
was.

Mooi loop

At de Lange
Pretoria

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Baie dankie, beste At, vir die interessant beskrywings en die eweseer
interessant gedagtes.

Dit mag intereseer jou dat Nedersaksies* 'n analoog woord het:
*do*(uitspraak: dou). Maar deesdae gebruik baie mense in
Noordduitsland dit nie
meer nie, omdat woorde sonder Duits ekwivalente verdwyn as uitslag van
"verduitsing". In sekere gevalle s?? baie mense nou *daar* (of *dor* or *da*)
in plaas van *do*, omdat dit in baie gevalle die ekwivalent van Duits *da*is.

* "Nederduits" bedoel ook 'n taalgroep: Nederfrankies (Nederlands, Afrikaans
ens.) tesaam met Nedersaksies. In hierdie taalkundige konteks is
"Nedersaksies" enigsins presieser.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/37e0ca55/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 22:04:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:04:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.150400.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Folks,

I wrote about the Hanseatic Steelyard in London:

Here is what the English Wikipedia says:

The Steelyard gave its name to a type of portable balance, consisting of a
graduated horizontal metal beam suspended on a chain. The whole balance
would be hung from a roof beam. A heavy object to be weighed, for instance a
sack of flour, would be hung on the shorter end of the beam, while lesser
but known weights would be slid along the other, longer end, till the beam
balanced. The weight of the sack could then be calculated by multiplying the
sum of the known weights by the ratio of the distances from the beam's
fulcrum.

The common non-English names -- German *Stahlhof*, Low Saxon *Stahlhoff*,
Dutch *Stalhof*, Russian *???????????????? ????????* -- refer to "yard" as "court" or
"courtyard", here in the sense of "compound". The English noun "steelyard"
denotes a weighing device, in which "yard" does not mean "courtyard". In
this case it was a large version of an ordinary steelyard balance (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelyard_balance), German *Handwaage* or *
Schnellwaage*, Low Saxon *??nzner* or* ??nstel*, Dutch *unster*, Russian *
????????????*.

So it seems to me that this is either a case of misunderstanding of "yard"
or a case of word play in naming the compound.

The steelyard is, of course, a very old device. Roman steelyards from the
2nd century CE have been unearthed in Britain, and the history of the
steelyard (???) in China goes back to at least 200 BCE. But an ordinary
steelyard is relatively small, as the component "yard" suggests, also the
Low Saxon and Dutch terms (*??nzner*,* ??nstel*, *unster*) that seem to refer
to "ounce".

I imagine that the Hanseatic merchants' large steelyard-like device for
weighing sacks, bales and the like was new to the people of London, that it
was affixed high enough for ordinary people to be able see it on the other
side of the compound walls, and that this gave the compound its name.
(Historical descriptions talk of gates, which suggests that access to the
compound was controlled.)

Marlou mentions that at one point the German Wikipedia uses the name *
Stiliard*.* I have done some further research. (Please go to the end to find
recommendations.) There are indications that *Stiliard* was indeed the name
and spelling used by the "Easterlings", as the resident Hanseatic people
from the North Sea and Baltic Sea coasts and from Cologne were referred to
by the English. In other words, they used the *English* name, at least at
first. *Stahlhof* etc. seem to have come in later, and their coinage may be
due to misunderstanding or wordplay, as I said earlier.

(* This spelling is interesting in that it shows that [i:] had by that time
become the local English pronunciation of written "ee", previously
pronounced [e:].)

The *Encyclop??edia Britannica* turns it around by saying:

in the later Middle Ages, members of the Hanseatic League, an association of
north German towns, who resided at its London establishment, known as the
Steelyard (probably from Low German *st??lgard,* a courtyard).

This would make sense only if the actual meaning of **st??lgard* were
explained and if this word could be verified anywhere.

Schiller-L??bben (*Mittelniederdeutsches W??rterbuch*, 1881) suspect that the
name *St??l-hof* (modern *Stahlhoff*) has nothing to do with "steel", that
the English translation Steel-yard is based on misunderstanding. They
consider two possibilities:

   1. < **Stadel-hof *< *stadel *'(small) place', 'spot for displaying or
   storing wares' (diminutive of *stad*, related to English "stead")
   2. < **stalen* < French *??taler* < *estaler* 'to display (wares), related
   to English "stall" as in "market stall" -- so, "display compound" (not all
   that far off from Marlou's *Stall* (stable) assumption)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Recommended:

   - Reinhold Pauli, *Der Hanseatische Stahlhof in London*, Bremen, 1856
   (German)
   http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25999/25999-h/25999-h.htm
   - Reingard Esser, "Germans in Early Modern Britain", in P. Panayi
ed. *Germans
   in Britain since 1500*, London, 1998
   http://books.google.com/books?id=Vsw_WrvbD_UC
   Illustration: p. 33
   - Philippe Dollinger, *The German Hansa*, Stanford, 1970.
   http://tinyurl.com/ljgrob

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/b400cec9/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 27 22:24:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:24:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.06.27 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.152407.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders, especially those of you that have Yahoo accounts,

Here's a follow-up message regarding the mailing transmission problems of
late.

Yahoo has finally admitted that it is due to problems they are having with
external filtering software. They promised to fix the problem, but so far it
persists, while I get all mailings at lowlands at lowlands-l.net.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/303868b4/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 00:17:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:17:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.27 (05) [AF-NL]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.171733.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste At,
You wrote:

Miskien versterk dit my
oortuiging dat Afrikaans 'n ontluiking eerder as 'n kreolisering
was.


Ook een bloem die ontluikt kan dit niet zonder voldoende licht, water en
grond. Een Afrikaanse bloem heeft zo haar wortels in Afrikaanse grond, maar
het zaad kwam uit Europa. Als je ziet hoe dat zelfde zaad in
Nederlands-Indi?? heeft wortel geschoten, dan krijg je een heel andere bloem.
Zo flexibel kan het leven zijn...maar ook zo hard...want als de bodem
uitgemergeld geraakt...dan volstaan licht en water niet meer.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/c5c7bdcb/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 00:19:01 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:19:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.171901.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (04) [EN]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote
Subject: History

One was set up outside a church in Edinburgh's High Street, probably after
1603 for market prodice to be weighed prior to selling at the market
adjacent to St Giles High Church.Scots referred to the device as a "TRON"
and the church where it was situated is still called The Tron Church. Long
abandoned an enterprising local gained access in Vistorin Times
and established an illicit whisky still. He ran the vent up into the steeple
so the smells op distilling wafted well above the city.
I recall steelyards being used in Edinburgh butchers' shops in the 1940's.

On 28/06/2009, at 8:04 AM, Lowlands-L List wrote:

The Steelyard gave its name to a type of portable balance, consisting of a
graduated horizontal metal beam suspended on a chain. The whole balance
would be hung from a roof beam. A heavy object to be weighed, for instance a
sack of flour, would be hung on the shorter end of the beam, while lesser
but known weights would be slid along the other, longer end, till the beam
balanced. The weight of the sack could then be calculated by multiplying the
sum of the known weights by the ratio of the distances from the beam's
fulcrum.


  Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane
AUSTRALIA
"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,
Tae see oorsels as ithers see us
Robert Burn

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/cc70aa65/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 01:49:56 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:49:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (07) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUN.2009.184956.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2009 - Volume 07
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote
Subject: History

Our Tom (Mc Rae) wrote:

One was set up outside a church in Edinburgh's High Street, probably after
1603 for market prodice to be weighed prior to selling at the market
adjacent to St Giles High Church.
Scots referred to the device as a "TRON" and the church where it was
situated is still called The Tron Church. Long abandoned an enterprising
local gained access in Vistorin Times
and established an illicit whisky still. He ran the vent up into the steeple
so the smells op distilling wafted well above the city.
I recall steelyards being used in Edinburgh butchers' shops in the 1940's.

The *Oxford English Dictionary* says among other things:

*tron, trone** n.*
Sc. and north. dial.
[ME. a. OF. trone (Godef.) -- L. *trulina*, a. Gr. *?????????????? *balance, pair
of scales.]
1. (Chiefly Sc.) A weighing machine; a pair of scales or other machine for
weighing merchandise; a public weighing apparatus in a city or (burgh) town;
also called ???the king's trone???. Now *Hist*.
  b. The post of this was used as a pillory, or place of public exposure and
punishment of offenders.
  c. Contextually, The place where the tron was set up; a market-place,
market; in quot. 1821 *fig*.
  d. Short for *tron weight*
2. (*pl.*) *north. dial.* A weighing-machine; a pair of scales, a steelyard
or spring balance.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090627/0358af28/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 15:34:16 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.28 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.083416.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (07) [EN]

On 28/06/2009, at 11:49 AM, Tom (Mc Rae) wrote:

One was set up outside a church in Edinburgh's High Street, probably after
1603 for market produce to be weighed prior to selling at the market
adjacent to St Giles High Church.


On reflection I can't help wondering if those devices were introduced to
Scotland much earlier  when the Flemish weavers came and set up their
communities.
Such weavers would have required a weighing device for their wool purchases.
Had the device come from England it would probably have been called a
 steelyard or steleyaird.

  Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane
AUSTRALIA
"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,
Tae see oorsels as ithers see us
Robert Burns

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (04) [EN]

 Thanks for all these interesting explanations on "Steelyard", dear Reinhard
& Tom! So "Steel-yard" was originally an English word and means something
like "Stell-Balken" or "Eisen-Balken" either for the beam itself or for the
iron counterweights. (Being a lay person, I like things simple and I like
the idea that *one* explanation is "true" :-)) And the "Easterlings", after
first taking "steelyard" as a Fremdwort and writing it "Stiliard", later
translated it naively into "Stahlhof", mistaking the true meaning. I love
this. Maybe the word was so old they couldn't make out the true etymology
even then?

Hartlich

Marlou
(Hamborg/Holsteen)

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.26 (05) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
Subject: Etymology

In 1988,
remnants of the Steelyard's trading house were discovered, and a plaque now
commemorates the site.

The excavation was by the Museum of London Archaeology Service, and the
finds are in the Museum of London (including a carved stone eagle).  The
deeds to cannon street station include its sale from the Hanse.
Eagle and deed were both exhibited at an exhibition on the Hanse in the
about 20 years ago at Hamburg and Rostock - interested parties might be able
to find the catalogue via a library.

I have fond memories of this exhibition, as I couriered the objects back
from Rostock, just after the Berlin Wall had fallen (but before the decision
for reunification had been taken).

Cheers,

Pat

-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/2c30d463/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 15:36:43 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:36:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.28 (02) [AF]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.083643.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.27 (03) [AF]

Beste At:

Onderwerp: LL_L "Etymology"

Betreffende u verslag oor die 'toe' en 'so'; die historiese verlede en
toekomstige tyd:
U opmerking;
'Hier kom die gatslag. Op laer- en ho??rskool is ons verbied om
verhale en verslae te begin met "Toe...." en "So....".'

Ek kan dit insien dat jou onnies sterk daarteen gekant is, ter wille van
voldoende afgeronde taalleer, maar ek aanvaar nie dat dit die Taal as geheel
en sy sprekers in hierdie verarmende gebruik gesteen moet wees.

En dit is wel die geval. Lees maar 'n roman, hoor maar 'n storie op straat,
en sidaar, uit kom die historiese verlede tyd, hetsy met of sonder die
verraaderlike 'toe'. So ook met die 'so'. in die mond van 'n vernuftige
kalant met 'n geslepe plan. Onlangs het 'n mede-inskrywer wat o.a. in
Afrikaans belang stel Dalene Mathee se 'Kringe in die Bos' probeer takel, as
ek reg onthou, en verstommend die einste geaardheid van Afrikaanse
verhaalkunde waargemerk. Klim saam terug in die historiese verlede, man!

Groete,
Die Uwe,
Mark.

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/6ee3e88b/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 21:09:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:09:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.28 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.140911.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

On an Anlgo-Saxon discussion group somebody mentioned the Northern
English/Midlands expression "mi ol' mucker", a term for "my old friend" or
similar.  They mentioned a similar modern Saxon * min ole makker*, and a
German-speaker said there was a modern H. German *Macker*, which he believes
is of Lowlands origin.

The question was how far back this connection went to English; is from
Dutch/Flemish sailors and traders in the Middle Ages to 18thC, or back as
far as Old English?

Any Lowlanders got any knowledge of the expression and its possible history?

Paul
Derby
England

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/8b77f846/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 28 21:16:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:16:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.28 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.141659.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (06) [EN]

Still one of the most effective and accurate methods of measuring mass, as
opposed to weight.  A sixty kilogram mass measured with a steelyard on the
Moon would show as 60kg.  On a bathroom scale or any kind of spring balance,
it would show 10kg.

Paul

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Marlou,

You wrote:

 Thanks for all these interesting explanations on "Steelyard", dear Reinhard
> & Tom! So "Steel-yard" was originally an English word and means something
> like "Stell-Balken" or "Eisen-Balken" either for the beam itself or for the
> iron counterweights. (Being a lay person, I like things simple and I like
> the idea that *one* explanation is "true" :-)) And the "Easterlings", after
> first taking "steelyard" as a Fremdwort?????and writing it "Stiliard", later
> translated it naively into "Stahlhof", mistaking the true meaning. I love
> this. Maybe the word was so old they?????couldn't make out the true etymology
> even then?
>

Don't want to burst your bubble...but...I don't find it obvious to call a
place after one object that was used on those grounds ("pars pro toto").
Even if that object was quintessential for the very purpose of that place.
This custom does happen with buildings that get nicknames after becoming
popular, but in the case of a transnational foundation like the Steelyard, I
find it less likely.

The "Stahlhof" in London was originally created by merchants from Cologne
who wanted to display and sell their goods to an English public. Well, "to
display" can be translated as "uit-stallen" in Dutch (~ ??taler, estaler in
French, which in turn < stallen, stellen (D) ~ stallion, Stallone, to
install). There's a "Stalhof" in Ghent too by the way. Grimm quotes Kiliaen
regarding "stael-hof":

http://tinyurl.com/lpd59d

Secondary influence could come from the expression "staelen het laecken",
which refers to the act of tagging cloth with a leaden seal (compare
Leadenhall). This verb "staelen" is cognate with Dutch "staal", a sample. I
think this influence is only secondary because I'm not sure if the Rhineland
was famous for sheets and wool back then. Of course, along the way, Rhenish
merchants may well have stocked up on Flemish cloth, trying to sell it later
on in London. Early transport was by road (K??ln > Brussels > Ghent >
Bruges), only later by ship.

Finally, the English may have reinterpreted the second meaning, creating a
name for a scale-beam (which we call "nen uisel" (B), ~ ounce), case of
totum pro parte.

There are also two communities in Rhineland-Palatinate, called Stahlhofen,
and some of the pioneers may well have come from this region, but I doubt
whether that may have played a big role in the original namegiving.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Makes sense, Luc, and is consistent with the other source I cited.

German has *ausstellen* for 'to display', 'to exhibit', and *stellen *is an
umlauted form of *stallen*.

I think the confusion arises because of vowel length differences.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/5afe18b5/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 02:18:23 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:18:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.28 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUN.2009.191823.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.28 (04) [EN]

Dear Luc, you are welcome to burst any bubble of mine with something so much
more interesting! :-) Do you mean to say that "Stahlhof" is *not* a
translation of "Steelyard" and the ping-pong of this word between the
languages has not really taken place? "Stahlhof" and "Steelyard" (tha
balance) each have an etymology of their own? But it is quite a lot of a
coincidence that they seem to be translations, hm? Or do I get you wrong?

Hartlich

Marlou

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

As the plot keeps thickening it is beginning to look to me as though Middle
English "Steelyard" and Modern German *Stahlhof* are mistranslations of
Middle Saxon *Stalhof*.

I wrote:

I think the confusion arises because of vowel length differences.

Modern Low Saxon has a phonological rule whereby a short vowel is somewhat
lengthened before a nasal or liquid; e.g.

*tamm* (Netherlands/Middle Saxon spelling *tam*) [t??a??m] 'tame'
*Kinn* (Netherlands/Middle Saxon spelling *kin*) [k??????n] 'chin'
*Melk* (Netherlands/Middle Saxon spellin *melk*) [m??????k] 'milk'
*Stall *(Netherlands/Middle Saxon spelling *stal*) [sta????] 'stable',
'stall', 'pen'

In the case of /a/ the pronunciation remains the same as in other cases of
short /a/; it is just slightly lengthened ([a??]). (This provoked some Low
Saxon writers in the Netherlands to write it as "aa", because it sounds more
like long Standard Dutch /a/; hence *laand* 'land', and *staal* 'stable' as
opposed to *staol* 'steel'.) It is *not* pronounced like a long /a/, which
is farther back and more or less rounded.

I imagine that this rule existed already in Middle Saxon, hence spelling
like *Stalhof*, *St??lhof* and *Staelhof* for what is really /stalhov/
'display/exhibition yard', which would be spelled **Stallhoff* in Modern Low
Saxon, pronounced [??sta????h??f], if it didn't become umlauted to
**Stellhoff*[??st??????h??f] (while
*Stahlhoff* , Netherlands spelling *Staolhof*, 'steelyard', would be
pronounced [??st??????h??f] or [??sto????h??f]).

"Display yard" or "exhibition yard" makes a lot more sense to me than "steel
yard", since this was a compound in which potential English buyers found the
merchandise displayed that Hanseatic ships had delivered across the North
Sea and up the Thames.

Yeah, Luc!

Rehards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: Gosh! Wouldn't it be great to be able to time-travel?

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090628/77b3e3d7/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 15:01:35 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:01:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.080135.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Sprache

Liebe Experten,

am 26. Juni h??rte ich mit Freude auf der BUGA (Bundesgartenschau) ein
ausgezeichnetes Musik-Programm  (Musik und Gesang) mit dem Titel:
"The Sally Gardens - Irish & Scottish Folk". Die heiteren und besinnlichen
Melodien (Balladen) trafen meinen Nerv.
Drei K??nstlerinnen E-Geige, E-Gitarre und E-Bass musizierten *non stop *mit
Spa?? an der Sache fast zwei Stunden. Das war eine gro??e Leistung!
Ich bem??hte mich, den Titel "The Sally Gardens" auf Hochdeutsch zu bringen,
aber bitte nicht schmunzeln (Der Ausbruch Garten ... Der bl??hende
Garten...), na ja, es gibt ja keine dummen Fragen ...

Beste Gr????e.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/64485955/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 15:25:27 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:25:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.29 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.082527.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.28 (03) [EN]

Paul:
 RE mucker, at least Dutch knows 'makker', not sure about the etymology but
it doesn't look like a loanword, or a very old one. It means something like
"buddy".

Greets,
Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Paul, Lowlanders,

German *Macker* comes from Missingsch which has it from Low Saxon.

Old Saxon has *mako* (pronounced like *macko*) 'companion' which appears to
go back to the same Indo-European root **ma??-* from which the "make" group
comes. Apart from "make" it also means "knead", "squeeze", "stroke". So
perhaps a *Macker* was originally someone you hugged and petted.

Old Saxon **mak??r *is not attested in the literature but *mak??rin *~ *
makirin* is, a female **mak??r* "maker" or "doer", namely a go-between or
matchmaker.

I imagin that **mak??r* did exist and that, aside from "maker", it could have
been the "hugger" and "petter" while *mako* was the "huggee" and "pettee"
... ;-) Who says them Old Saxons weren't of the touchy, feely, hugging type?

Seriously though, I find it interesting that the word group "make" also
connoted "knead". I wonder if this has something to do with making pottery.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/325ed46a/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 15:29:25 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:29:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.082925.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: clarkedavid8 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (01) [DE

*Down By The Salley Gardens*
(*Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language>:
Gort na Saile??n*) is a poem <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poem> by William
Butler Yeats <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Butler_Yeats> published
in The Wanderings of Oisin and Other
Poems<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wanderings_of_Oisin_and_Other_Poems>in
1889 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889>. Yeats indicated in a note that it
was "an attempt to reconstruct an old song from three lines imperfectly
remembered by an old peasant woman in the village of Ballisodare,
Sligo<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Sligo>,
who often sings them to
herself."[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_By_The_Salley_Gardens#cite_note-0>Yeats's
original title, "An Old Song Re-Sung", reflected this; it first
appeared under its present title when it was reprinted in *Poems* in
1895<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1895>
.[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_By_The_Salley_Gardens#cite_note-1>The
verse was subsequently set to music by Herbert
Hughes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hughes_%28musicologist%29> to
the air <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_%28music%29> *The Maids of t he
Mourne Shore* in 1909. In the 1920s composer Rebecca
Clarke<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Clarke>(1886-1979) set the
text to music.
[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_By_The_Salley_Gardens#cite_note-2>There
is also a vocal setting by the poet and composer Ivor
Gurney <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivor_Gurney>, which was published in
1938.
"Salley" is an anglicisation of the Irish *saileach*, meaning
*willow<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow>
*, i.e., a tree of the genus *Salix*. Willows are known as "salleys",
"sallies" or "salley trees" in parts of
Ireland.[1]<http://www.hiberno-english.com/body.php?id=1484>
 Poem Down by the salley gardens my love and I did meet; She passed the
salley gardens with little snow-white feet. She bid me take love easy, as
the leaves grow on the tree; But I, being young and foolish, with her did
not agree. In a field by the river my love and I did stand, And on my
leaning shoulder she laid her snow-white hand. She bid me take life easy, as
the grass grows on the weirs; But I was young and foolish, and now am full
of tears. *[David Clarke]*


From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Sprache

Liebe Experten,

am 26. Juni h??rte ich mit Freude auf der BUGA (Bundesgartenschau) ein
ausgezeichnetes Musik-Programm  (Musik und Gesang) mit dem Titel:
"The Sally Gardens - Irish & Scottish Folk". Die heiteren und besinnlichen
Melodien (Balladen) trafen meinen Nerv.
Drei K??nstlerinnen E-Geige, E-Gitarre und E-Bass musizierten *non stop *mit
Spa?? an der Sache fast zwei Stunden. Das war eine gro??e Leistung!
Ich bem??hte mich, den Titel "The Sally Gardens" auf Hochdeutsch zu bringen,
aber bitte nicht schmunzeln (Der Ausbruch Garten ...20Der bl??hende
Garten...), na ja, es gibt ja keine dummen Fragen ...

Beste Gr????e.

Hanne

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/02fcae03/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 16:44:12 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:44:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.29 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.094412.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

I wrote among other things:

Old Saxon has *mako* (pronounced like *macko*) 'companion' which appears to
go back to the same Indo-European root **ma??-* from which the "make" group
comes. Apart from "make" it also means "knead", "squeeze", "stroke". So
perhaps a *Macker* was originally someone you hugged and petted.
...

Seriously though, I find it interesting that the word group "make" also
connoted "knead". I wonder if this has something to do with making pottery.

This is what the *Oxford English Dicftionary* says about this:

     The word has been referred to the Indo-European base of Welsh *maeddu *to
knead and Old Church Slavonic *mazati *to smear, and perhaps also of ancient
Greek {?????????????? (compare the perfect passive *????????????????*, MAGMA n., and MASS
n.2), classical Latin *m??cer??re *(see MACERATE v.), and Armenian *macanim *to
cling to; but whether these last three, and indeed the West Germanic verb,
should be referred to this base is not certain. The Indo-European base
perhaps had the sense ???to knead, work with the hands??? from which, it is
hypothesized, the more general meaning ???make??? may have developed. The
Germanic verb is also widely considered to be related to the Germanic base
of I-MAKE n. and MATCH n.1, probably an adjective with the sense ???fit,
suitable???. This adjective must be regarded as a derivative of the verb
(perhaps via the sense ???that which can be done???) if the above Indo-European
etymology is accepted. An older view took the verb as a specifically West
Germanic derivative (with the original sense ???fit, arrange???) of the
adjective (which, having reflexes in North Germanic, must go back to Common
Germanic), and treated the further etymology as unknown.
    Old English *macian *and *gemacian *(which continued into Middle English
as *imake*) are much less common than *don *DO v. (which is also the word
most commonly used to translate Latin *facere*), **I-*gewyrcan *WURCHE v.,
and *wyrcan *WORK v. In Old English sense 1a appears to be the commonest
use, followed by senses 34a and 33b (factitive), 38 (causative), and 43a.
Development of senses within English was affected by various secondary
borrowings and influences, e.g. from senses of Latin *facere *and *fier??*;
no attempt has been made to document these exhaustively below. Since it is
uncertain what the original meanings of the word were in West Germanic, the
branches in the semantic arrangement below do not necessarily reflect the
sequence in which the senses arose.

So "match" as in "matchmaker" belongs to the same group.

I also found Old English *maka* 'companion', 'husband', thus a cognate of
Old Saxon *mako*. So we are talking about a "match" here, about someone you
are matched up with. I wonder if later *Macker* is based on a reanalyzed *
-er* form of this. Furthermore, I wonder if the idea "to cling to", "to
stick to" (see above) is implied here.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/81c88e99/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 22:23:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:23:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.29 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.152355.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: G Tighe <tighe at sympatico.ca>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.06.27 (07) [EN]

Hi Folk:

There is a 'Tron Gate' in Glasgow.

Gerald

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote
Subject: History

Our Tom (Mc Rae) wrote:

One was set up outside a church in Edinburgh's High Street, probably after
1603 for market prodice to be weighed prior to selling at the market
adjacent to St Giles High Church.
Scots referred to the device as a "TRON" and the church where it was
situated is still called The Tron Church. Long abandoned an enterprising
local gained access in Vistorin Times
and established an illicit whisky still. He ran the vent up into the steeple
so the smells op distilling wafted well above the city.
I recall steelyards being used in Edinburgh butchers' shops in the 1940's.

The *Oxford English Dictionary* says among other things:

*tron, trone** n.*
Sc. and north. dial.
[ME. a. OF. trone (Godef.) -- L. *trulina*, a. Gr. *?????????????? *balance, pair
of scales.]
1. (Chiefly Sc.) A weighing machine; a pair of scales or other machine for
weighing merchandise; a public weighing apparatus in a city or (burgh) town;
also called ???the king's trone???. Now *Hist*.
  b. The post of this was used as a pillory, or place of public exposure and
punishment of offenders.
  c. Contextually, The place where the tron was set up; a market-place,
market; in quot. 1821 *fig*.
  d. Short for *tron weight*
2. (*pl.*) *north. dial.* A weighing-machine; a pair of scales, a steelyard
or spring balance.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/258b9ded/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 22:25:52 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:25:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.29 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.152552.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.06.29 (04) [EN]

Lowlands-L List wrote:
 i.e.  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> I wrote among other things:
>
> Old Saxon has /mako/ (pronounced like /macko/) 'companion' which appears to
> go back to the same Indo-European root */ma??-/ from which the "make" group
> comes. Apart from "make" it also means "knead", "squeeze", "stroke". So
> perhaps a /Macker/ was originally someone you hugged and petted.


As a person from this area (midlands), I alway understood 'mucker' as
'companion', with the meaning of 'one-who-shares-bread-with' (indeed, I was
quite stunned as a child, realising that I had a word for 'companion', where
as the rest of the English-speaking world had to make do with an import).

I associated 'my old mucker' with 'to muck in' with the meaning 'share
rations with'.

I fully expect my personal (micro-folk) etymology is utterly false.

Cheers,  my old muckers,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/1fb5ec10/attachment.htm>

From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 29 22:26:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:26:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.29.JUN.2009.152659.0700.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 June 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands at lowlands-l.net - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.06.29 (03) [DE-EN]

Hi David Clarke,

many thanks! Your information it's very good.

Greetings.
Hanne Hinz

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090629/e850c688/attachment.htm>