LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.13 (01) [EN]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 13 November 2009- Volume 01
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.12 (03) [EN]

So Schadenfreude was an *new* idea in England? Never felt before the word
appeared? Really? :-)

From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.12 (02) [EN]

It wasn't only French words that crossed the channel: new ideas and
understandings came as well. I can't think of another English word for
schadenfreude.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Lexicon

Right, Marlou. Never existed before, I'm sure. NOT!

Seriously, though, it brings up an in my opinion really interesting topic:
an imported term denoting something that existed before but did not have a
name before that, or that used to be referred to in a less concise way.

In the case of German importations in English these tend to be terms taken
from German published works and tend to belong to specialist jargon. Here
are further examples (and I am not talking about the numerous German
importations denoting actual novel items here):

Narrenfreiheit
Sturm und Drang
Gestalt
Weltschmerz
Dasein
Leitmotif (now often "leading theme")
Realpolitik
Verfremdungseffekt
Umlaut
Ablaut
Sprachbund
Dachsprache
Ausbausprache
Urtext
Urheimat
Zeitgeist
Methodenstreit
Festschrift
Angst
Wunderkind
Galgenhumor (which recently became a calque: gallows humor)
Loanword (calque of Lehnwort)

In some cases, these are semantically general words in German (e.g.
*Dasein*'existence') that in English came to be used in specialized
ways.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.12 (03) [EN]

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Right you are...but...on the other hand, I dare to say I'm pretty confident
that if Germany wouldn't have been so aggressive (twice) during the 20th
century...the Berlin wall would never have been built...and would therefore
never have to be destroyed either

Luc,

That's not the same thing. You're removing a cause, that will also remove
the effects.

Tnat would be like saying that if the Normans had lost there wouldn't have
been such an influx of Norman words into English. Fair enough.

But you can't infer effects from causes that didn't happen. We can't even
know which dialect of old English modern English would have been based on.

Sandy Fleming
Http://scotstexr.org/ <http://scotstexr.org/>

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From: DAVID COWLEY <DavidCowley at anglesey.gov.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.12 (02) [EN]

Comments on what Sandy and Andrys said:

> Sandy: ''fordo, onbeload, unbefought: I have no idea what these might
> be intended
> to mean.''

> ANS: Try these for examples:
> - 'I aimed to get you keen on updated words, but feel that plan may
> have been fordone (... well, they're not to everyone's taste!)'
> - 'My friends are very busy now, really onbeloaded with work as it
> happens ...'
> - 'Three local authority councillors in x kept their seats, these
> being unbefought at the election ...'

So you're saying to use:

"fordo" instead of "do beforehand" (or something, I still don't get it)
"onbeloaded" instead of "overloaded"
"unbefought" instead of "unfought"?

COMMENT: No: I'm saying they might be of use to some folk, in some contexts
(free choice of expression); on these words themselves:
- The nearest I can think for 'fordo' would be 'scuppered' .
- 'Overloaded means' 'too much', 'onbeloaded' just 'loaded up'
- Unbefought/ unfought - Much alike, yes, that's true: But compare:
bewitched/ witched  because/ 'cause/ coz

So, why? Or should I say, wherefore?  :)

> Sandy: ''Of course the whole idea of "How we'd talk if..." is a
> fantasy isn't it?
> We've no idea what _else_ would have happened if the Norman invasion
>
> hadn't.''
>
> ANS: Its one scenario, and even that only part-answered (and it leaves
> aside the likely different spelling conventions there'd be). Of course
> lots of other different things could have happened later on. The point
> is that 1066 is so often seen as a year of really key, big change, and
> that the English we speak has been shaped by the French connection in
> deep and significant ways. Surely something worth thinking about at
> least?
>
> I recall a programme many years ago in which a presenter read the news
> in Scots, in a 'what if Scotland had never been joined with England'
> scenario. And yet now, many years later, there's a Scottish Parliament
> which at least has some token Scots on its website, and I understand
> that kids are being allowed to use Scots a bit more in school - at
> long last. I'm not Scottish, but doesn't the 'what if?' idea grab you
> a bit? And the idea of using the past and how things went for thinking
> about now, and the possible future too?

Well, you can think about historical cause and effect, but it doesn't
mean anything in terms of what would really have happened. It's very
like the statements we keep hearing from sports commentators:

"If Mootoo had been just a little faster they'd have got that goal and
the game would have been won instead of a draw."

No, if Mootoo had been a little faster we've no idea what would have
happened. All the players would have ended up in a different position
and the rest of the game would have been completely different. Maybe
he'd have missed the goal and demoralised the rest of the team so that
they would have lost badly!

COMMENT: Sandy, its clear you're just not grabbed by the idea of thinking
about the 'What if' scenarios, and I respect that. But there are some folk
who are interested. Think your football scenario is a fair analogous
criticism? By going over what they did in a game, players learn how to play
better, to get different outcomes next time. This essentially involves the
'what if?' idea. Surely getting insights from past action/ results, with an
eye to the future means something to us all - or where would we be?
What about we move on from this now though, and agree to have different
viewpoints!!

On Andrys' Comments:

Like Sandy, I had to guess at what fordo, onbeload and unbefought. might be
and like him, I remain unconvinced. As well as the unfought/unbefought
question, there is (now) a wonderfully fluent nuance to uncontested that
unbefought seems to lack. Languages have to grow to accommodate new
conceptual understandings: fighting an election in the eleventh century,
were that even a possibility, would most likely involve bloodshed rather
than irritating ads on the telly. It wasn't only French words that crossed
the channel: new ideas and understandings came as well. I can't think of
another English word for schadenfreude.

COMMENT: I've only said that there are some updated words that might be of
use in some cases: so, you like uncontested better - fine - your choice, as
with so many other English words; 'unbefought' can be there too for those
who MIGHT like its sound. Choosing between words is something we already do
all the time - i'm saying here are a few more to choose from. And the 11th
c. election thing - that has nothing at all to do with my proposed use of
updated words - I'm amazed if you really think it did.

There is a contemporary parallel. Soft political power depends greatly on
the capacity to communicate. Assuming that English retains its current
status as the most commonly used international language and doesn't get
replaced by Chinese, Arabic or Spanish, won't globalisation have a much
greater impact on the future development of the language; especially as
non-native speakers continue to challenge any one version's proprietary
ownership and authority? I can't see a Chinese English speaker working out
what unbeload means, and I wonder why she should have to.

Andrys

COMMENT: Sorry Andrys, but the idea in that last sentence really has gone
awry.
What I'm saying is: there are some Old English words which in updated forms
may be useful in Modern English and could therefore get back into use (and
Dictionaries). If that were to happen, how would getting Chinese learners
(or anyone else) familiar with them be any worse than teaching any other
English words, whether new technical terms, or older words?

Best wishes
David

•

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