From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 07:03:54 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 00:03:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2010.09.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.000354.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 01*
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in September of 2010!



First of all, welcome to the person who joined us since the beginning of the
August! He lives in the following place:


*United States of America*:
      Arkansas:
            Little Rock [1]



Before I get to regular list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:



*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*List Mail v Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
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to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List. For
administrative purposes, it's best if you use lowlands.list at gmail.com.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
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address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
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*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ([ ]). This indicates which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
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that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



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Please don't forget about our activities:



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Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
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If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
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*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



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A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
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Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



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*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are visible only to
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Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
sassisch at yahoo.com



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 16:38:16 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:38:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.093816.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 02*
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Culture"



Dear Lowlanders,



last Sunday we watched on the German TV-channel "ZDF" an interesting
archeological show ("Terra X") about a grave from the Stone Age:

http://tinyurl.com/35vlz26 (as video, still available in Germany);



further informations:



http://www.zeit.de/2008/30/Familie  (German)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27770938/ (English)



The people which are buried in the mentioned graves were members of the
'Corded Ware culture' (2,800-2,200 BC).

During the show the moderators also came up to those people whom we know as
'Bell Beaker culture' (2,400-1,800 BC), probably the followers of
the 'Corded Ware culture'. The members of these 'Bell Beakers' spread about
the greater part of Central (Western) Europe, starting from the
West (nowadays Portugal); they also took part in the construction of
Stonehenge (probably they've built the last version of it).



The interviewed archeologists postulated a theory that these
higher civilized people may have been in contact with the inhabitants of
Northern Africa, maybe they even were descendants of the old Egypts. This
caused a discussion in our family: if they knew the Egyptian hieroglyphs
(since ca. 3,200 BC) why didn't they bring them with them? Or developed
anything similar?

I think that each culture which ever has experienced the power of written
letters should have been eager to learn and create the same for its own
purposes.

But we have no relics in Europe which could point to any writing until the
Romans conquered (and later christianized) this region. The Germanic Runic
alphabet is dated younger, already influenced by Latin types and never had
been an important medium for 'daily' communication. I've never heard about a
Celtic writing system as well.



What could be the reasons for this belated evolution? Perhaps because there
was no necessity of any writing for a simply, small structured,
familiar society of hunters, herders and farmers, with no greater
settlements like there probably existed in Egypt, surely in Greece and
Italy. Without anything close to that what later was called "trading" and
"money"?!

Similar (still?) the situation worldwide among many indigenous peoples: they
obviously don't need any high developed writing system as long as they're
living in small groups and tribes and in harmony, in accordance with
the natural system around. (Of course they are able to produce and read
special 'signs', e.g. via smoke, drums or just broken and crossed twigs [in
Germany the last type, called "Bruch-zeichen", still has to be learned by
all people who want to become a licenced hunter].)



In my youth the farmers in our region (and elsewhere) didn't like that those
sons who should become their followers visited a college - it could spoil
their natural feeling for agricultural matters.



Exaggeratedly expressed: written letters are the very beginning of the evil
;-)!?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 17:55:23 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:55:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.105523.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 03*
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Culture"



Beste Jonny,

> Exaggeratedly expressed: written letters are the very beginning of the
evil ;-)!?

Evil or not, I dare not say, but surely not the beginning.

Written characters do sort of make oral sources look less trustworthy, less
objective if you will. Then again, I think the introduction of structured
vocal speech was even a much bigger revolution back in the days. And before
that, learning how to walk upright (like most humans do ;=)) was probably
not too obvious for most apes either. Just imagine how it would change your
personal life if you'd have to crawl on all fours again...not too mention
how it would change modern society...rush-hour trains would be even more
packed...and the driver would have difficulty to see where he's driving ;=)
Besides...hold your breath...remember that day when we jumped out of the
water and started to live on land? I was suffocating man! Now thàt was the
start of all evil...btw, I can't swim ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 18:07:29 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:07:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.110729.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 04*
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (02) [EN]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

The interviewed archeologists postulated a theory that these higher
civilized people may have been in contact with the inhabitants of Northern
Africa, maybe they even were descendants of the old Egypts. This caused a
discussion in our family: if they knew the Egyptian hieroglyphs (since ca.
3,200 BC) why didn't they bring them with them? Or developed anything
similar?


The "descendants of the old Egypts" part is speculation. Archeologists know
very little about the Bell-Beaker culture. They do not even agree whether
this culture is actually a culture. Perhaps it's just the beakers that
spread, a fashion in pottery-making. There are signs that the origin lies in
the Iberian peninsula but that's not a settled fact. Any connection to
Africa or even Egypt is just hypothetical.

But there are examples elsewhere in history where cultures did not adopt
script even though they were in close proximity to cultures that had script.
What's the reason? Well, first we should ask: What's the reason to write
down language? Novels, long-distance communication, parking tickets etc. pp.
are all relatively recent inventions. The most ancient uses for written
language are religious and magical purposes (e.g. the Germanic people used
their runes on weapons in the hope to magically enhance them). Another
important early use of written language is administration. If the king has
many subjects who have to provide food to the court you have to keep records
for your granaries. So, if your religion does not know magical spells and
your culture does not know kings or granaries or any other type of
institution that requires administration, there's no reason to write. Trade
seems like something where records are useful, but if you are a single
tradesman or a small group of traders, the single traders can keep all the
relevant information in their head. Making records could give away your
secrets. Records only become meaningful if you establish a trading house. If
you send out people on behalf that's the point where you need to keep
records.

One of the main apects of civilization is division of labour. In a society
with low division of labour (and the Bell-Beaker people certainly had a low
division of labour) people are either their own bosses or they at least know
their bosses. In a society with higher division of labour, there's more
hierarchy and more and more people don't know their bosses. There are
supervisors inbetween and only the supervisor has direct contact to the
boss. I'd say that's the point where records become necessary. When the
social complexness of society becomes so high that you cannot manage it
without noting down some things.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 23:15:40 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:15:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (05) [AF-EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.161540.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 05*
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (03) [EN]



Beste Luc en Jonny:



Onderwerp: LL-L "Humour"



You reminisce... Besides...hold your breath...remember that day when we
jumped out of the water and started to live on land? I was suffocating man!
Now thàt was the start of all evil...btw, I can't swim ;=)



'n Hollander vriend het die eens met ons meegedeel: "Ek het 'n verdrag met
die See. Ek gaan nie See toe nie en die Haai kom nie kroeg toe nie."

Groete,



Mark



----------



From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (04) [EN]



Beste Luc, Marcus & Jonny:



Subject: LL-L "Culture"



About the Beaker People & Writing::

The interviewed archeologists postulated a theory that these higher
civilized people may have been in contact with the inhabitants of Northern
Africa, maybe they even were descendants of the old Egyptians.



Some points; Egypt is quite far as a non-maritime people of Western Europe
would see it, & Morocco quite close. Moreover, unlike the case today, the
thin coastal edge of a howling desert, but a pleasant & bounteous savanna -
wall-to-wall Kruger Park - look at the rock-paintings of Tassili n Ajjir
(Land of Four [Rivers])& elsewhere. The Beaker Folk didn't need to go to
Egypt for cultural interaction. The Irish hold that Numidians were among
their ancestors



Now the Egyptians had papyrus. Without that, heiroglyphics is a non-starter.
The nearest their nearer neighbours the Sumerians came to a picture script
was cuniform on moulded clay. Have you considered how uncommon clay is in
non-alluvial country? You prospect for it, & when you find it you make pots
with it - you don't scribble on it & dump it for the archaeologists to find
(The boffins agree that most cuniform found is ephemera, pressed into
un-fired, sun-dried clay lumps, & dumped).



The carrying medium for a script must commonly be material commonly
available. In the forests of Northern Europe the locals used rune-staves, on
split lengths of stick (many samples have been found. One, in Ireland, is a
length of hartshorn with the Viking runes cut in it - 'HARTSHORN'), & the
script used was most suitable for cutting & carving, but there is a problem.
Scribbled notes past their sell-by date make good kindling, & if they aren't
burnt, over the ages they will rot into the earth. The same applies to the
long-bow, an instrument of telling Historical Moment: If they had not been
written about how would we know about them? Less than a handful survive to
date, & most of those were raised with the Mary Rose.I wonder how much of
our paper-based book-bound literature will survive the next Dark Age?



In the North we know of two carved scripts, one is the Teutonic Eights & the
other is the Gaelic Ogham. We cannot draw definitive conclusions about a
written culture in either based on the records carved in stone, a rare
medium, except that there was a script. Now the Germans & the Gaels had
bronze & steel, it was an option, for monumental purposes, to carve stone.
What did the Beaker People have - flint. Stone to carve stone?



The most insular Berbers of all (heh, heh) are the so-called Tuareg. Their
script, Tifinargh, can be drawn in the sand or scrawled on a stone face with
a piece of charcoal. Ephemera usually is, but the wind & passage of time
will blow it away. We cannot read it, yet, but their ancestors the
Garamantians used Tifinargh before the Phoenecians came.



Gentle readers, most scripts & most writing has been mostly used for
ephemera, thank the Lord. Just think, if all the drek of ages were to last
for ever! If a representative cross-sectione of the data backed up in
Cloudland were downloaded to stand testimony for us of the merit of our
survival as a race, woe, woe!



I think that those who try to relate the megalithic builders to the
Egyptians are gobsmacked by any ancient building at all, & lump the lot
together for simple - yes, simple - wonder at the magnitude of their works.
On the evidence of surviving structures their techniques & cultures had
nothing whatever in common. In my opinion, it doesn't become an academic's
professional dignity, least of all that of an archaeologist, to take that
option.



Apart from all the above, I agree with Marcus, the written record is a
manifestation of a Third-Level Culture: Urbanisition, specialisation of
crafts & an established heirarchy. Under such conditions one needs to pass
records between three parties or more & store them in the short term.



yrs,



Mark



----------



From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (02) [EN]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Culture"



[...]

I think that each culture which ever has experienced the power of written
letters should have been eager to learn and create the same for its own
purposes.

But we have no relics in Europe which could point to any writing until the
Romans conquered (and later christianized) this region. The Germanic Runic
alphabet is dated younger, already influenced by Latin types and never had
been an important medium for 'daily' communication. I've never heard about a
Celtic writing system as well.



What could be the reasons for this belated evolution? Perhaps because there
was no necessity of any writing for a simply, small structured, familiar
society of hunters, herders and farmers, with no greater settlements like
there probably existed in Egypt, surely in Greece and Italy. Without
anything close to that what later was called "trading" and "money"?!

[...]



Hello,

Eeeeeh... when you write on sticks, there is not much change for the
writings to be preserved.
But, besides, we can point to the ten thousands of runic messages of all
kind [also of scabrous nature] found on the bottom of the harbour of Bergen
in Norway: the soil was 'sour'.

And I may point to the fact that up until the 1950's there were still
Swedish farmers who used the runic system for their written communication
between each other.

It is my firm belief that the Old-Germanics [like other Indo-Europeans] did
not want to use a writing system, as written texts could lead to all kinds
of forgery.

But: Speak up in the meeting of the elders, and everybody can hear it, and
hear whether you are trying to change the texts.

And indeed, we have overdoses of old acts, proceedings and ordinances that
are forgeries, just intended to defraud.

So are the words of Theo who never forges or lies.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (02) [EN]



> From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
>
> Subject:LL-L "Culture"

> Exaggeratedly expressed: written letters are the very beginning of the
> evil ;-)!?

I think that in these days of widespread literacy achieved by early
teaching it's hard for us to realise just how difficult reading and
writing really is.

Groups tend to start writing in some sort of picture form or ideographs,
which suggests to me that the fact that a word splits into a stream
consisting of a small set of different sounds isn't as obvious as it
seems to we who are so used to the idea.

A system of ideographs, if widely accepted, does eventually start to
develop some phonetic features, perhaps initially through rebus writing,
but the ideographic side of the writing doesn't seem to disappear
because of that.

One idea is that the alphabet arose (as a betagam) when the Pheonicians
started using Egyptian writing: since they spoke a Semitic language they
felt no need to write vowels so it was simpler for them to develop the
sort of writing system we have today. Then classical Greek and Latin
being rather short of vowels, it wasn't too hard for them to take a
passing betagam and augment it into an alphabet by adding a few extra
letters for the vowels.

This sort of theory suggests that an alphabet is a difficult concept
that will only develop under auspicious circumstances, which would mean
that most other alphabets were developed from the original, or at least
from the idea of it.

I think this is quite a believable idea, that an alphabet develops first
in phonetically simpler (or simplifiable) languages, and later in
languages which need more letters. Look at the way it was widely
believed that Slavonic languages couldn't be written, until Saint Cyril
finally took the sledgehammer approach and borrowed letters from both
Greek and Latin alphabets and made up a few of his own until he had
enough.

It seems to me that hieroglyphic systems generally only survive with a
strong government and civil service (or priesthood, perhaps) to support
it, and an empire that continues unbroken (China, Egypt, Maya).

In earlier centuries (eg the Middle Ages), reading was much less common
and reading silently almost unheard of, which goes to show how much we
take for granted these days. On the other hand, there are many claims of
of people these days who can read just by flipping quickly through the
pages of a book, so we may not be at the end of the process yet!

In Victorian times, reading was very much a social event, with one
person in the family reading to the rest, but perhaps that was only due
to lack of other entertainments. I remember when I was a child older
adults used to often read out loud, but not the younger. Is this still
true? Being deaf now, I can't tell!

I also remember that older adults liked to be read to rather than read,
even when they could read, although this may just have been an
unwillingness to look for their reading glasses!

There was also a certain unwillingness, as you mention, for people to
approve of reading. I was often criticised by grandparents and old
uncles and aunts for "always having my nose in a book". Also for
climbing trees, running, shouting, laughing, getting lost for hours on
end, watching TV and generally not being Presbyterian enough.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  2 14:00:17 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 07:00:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.02 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.2.SEP.2010.070017.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (05) [AF-EN]



Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote

> Just think, if all the drek of ages were to last for ever!

It does now, ALL of it, thanks to the internet!


and Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> it was widely believed that Slavonic languages couldn't be written,
> until Saint Cyril finally took the sledgehammer approach and borrowed
> letters from both Greek and Latin alphabets and made up a few of his
> own until he had enough.


He (or his student(s), if we are talking about the Cyrillic and not the
Glagolitic alpahbet)  also apparently borrowed from some combination of:
Hebrew, Coptic, Samaritan, and/or Armenian. A VERY well-read man by all
accounts! ... which,in those days and times and in that part of the world
was a VERY rare thing.

(anyone interested in the details -- and conjectures -- can go to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Cyrillic_alphabet

cheers!

          mwm || U C > || Mike Morgan

===============================
           linguist temporarily at large
soon(?)  @ IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
 ... sometime in THIS incarnation anyway
                     ... inshallah



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (05) [AF-EN]



Hallo liebe Lowlanders,



es ist nur ein kleiner Beitrag von mir ...



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glockenbecherkultur



http://de.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dewiki/528689



Beste Grüße.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  2 22:53:47 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 15:53:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.2.SEP.2010.155347.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>

Subject: [LLL] Culture? (I think?)



Hey all,



I'm on a list about the Norwegian language
mailto:norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com<norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com>.
Every now and then I hear dates demarcated in week numbers that, how liberal
of them, start on a Monday. They were asking if this practice goes on in the
Brittish Isles or elsewhere, being that they mentioned that the EU does it.



Perplexed,



Ben



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  3 18:32:09 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:32:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.3.SEP.2010.113209.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 02 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Ben,



You wrote:



I'm on a list about the Norwegian language
mailto:norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com<norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com>.
Every now and then I hear dates demarcated in week numbers that, how liberal
of them, start on a Monday. They were asking if this practice goes on in the
Brittish Isles or elsewhere, being that they mentioned that the EU does it.



In my community it's legally forbidden to produce noise on a Sunday (the
Lord rests on that day). So folks start working again on Monday. Pretty
convenient I guess to start the working week on Monday then as well?



Personally I have no preference whatever though...24/7 is perfect for me.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Tradition



Ben,



Clearly, “weird” things happened in the transition from the Jewish Sabbath
(on Saturday) to the Christian Sabbath (on Sunday).



The Jewish Sabbath (שַׁבָּת *šabbāt*) is the last day of the week, and
Sunday (יוֹם* *רִאשׁוֹן *yōm ri’šōn* “first day”) is consequently the first
day of the next week.



Christianity shifted the Sabbath to Sunday, but in most Christian traditions
Sunday also remained the first day of the following week. Some traditions,
like that of Norway, shifted both the Sabbath and the first day of the week
by one day, hence Monday being the first day of the week.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  3 19:38:11 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:38:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]
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*L O W L A N D S - L - 03 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (03) [EN]



Hi everyone,

I think you misunderstood Ben:

>> I'm on a list about the Norwegian
>> language mailto:norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com. Every now and then
I
>> hear dates demarcated in week numbers that, how liberal of them, start on
a
>> Monday. They were asking if this practice goes on in the Brittish Isles
or
>> elsewhere, being that they mentioned that the EU does it.
> In my community it's legally forbidden to produce noise on a Sunday (the
> Lord rests on that day). So folks start working again on Monday. Pretty
> convenient I guess to start the working week on Monday then as well?



At work (Tornesch near Hamburg, Germany) I frequently hear some people
setting dates in "Kalenderwochen" (calendar week) like
"This project needs to be done till Kalenderwoche 12". This even pops
up in todo lists and it always makes me feel to be a calendrical
analphabet. The only thing I can do is walk to a wall calendar with
"Kalenderwochen" at the left margin, translate the week number into a
proper date and take the date into my personal todo list.


> Personally I have no preference whatever though...24/7 is perfect for me.



Well, since converting to Seventh-Day-Adventism, I think that it does
matter. My advice is that 24/7 is definitely not a good idea. The text
that contains the defining passages about our western business week is
called "10 commandments" and not "10 suggestions". And it urges us to
take a proper amount of rest.

Hartlich Gröten and Shabbat Shalom ut Hamborg,
Heiko Evermann



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  3 22:24:37 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 15:24:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.3.SEP.2010.152437.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 03 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]



Heiko and all,



At work (Tornesch near Hamburg, Germany) I frequently hear some people
setting dates in "Kalenderwochen" (calendar week) like
"This project needs to be done till Kalenderwoche 12".



In Norway, the weeks vary depending on what’s around them, especially near
New Year’s Day. How does it work in those places where the Kalenderwoche are
used? Being that September started on a Wednesday, how do they calculate the
Kalenderwoch?



Ben



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]



The Celts used an eight day week and the Basques a three day week, is
that right? It depends on your definition of "week", of course, but if
you take it to mean a short cycle of recurring days patterned to a
lifestyle, probably each with a name to identify what sort of things we
should be doing that day, then I suppose that's right.

I'm only looking on Wikipedia and things, but I don't see any sort of
week associated with Germanic tribes. It would be a bit of a coincidence
if they had the same length of week as the Christians brought along,
surely? Or did our venerable ancestors just not bother with all that
sort of rot?

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]



Hello everyone,



apart from the matter of calendar weeks and religious traditions, is there
anyone living in a western country who has the *feeling *that a new week
begins on sunday? I definitely have not; when I wish you "Schönes
Wochenende" this clearly includes the Sunday; and for all the people I know
Monday is the first day of the new week. When somebody says "We will spend
this weekend on Fehmarn" everybody knows they will go to Fehmarn for
Saturday and Sunday. It would feel curious to *begin *a new week with a day
of rest. I would feel uneasy with it. Usually rest is what you need when you
have *finished *something. Or what say you?



Hartlich



Marlou



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 04:10:26 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 21:10:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.3.SEP.2010.211026.0700.>

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



American calendars are usually printed with Sunday as the first day of the
week, and I’ve always considered Sunday to be the first day of the week
(probably because of my strong Christian upbringing in which we always
talked about Sunday as the first day of the week). A week has two “ends” in
a sense (i.e., a front end and a back end, so to speak), so calling Saturday
and Sunday a “weekend” has never bothered me. Monday is the first day of the
*work* week, which lasts five days.



I also don’t consider Sunday a “day of rest” necessarily, but rather a day
of worship (because the resurrection occurred on the first day of the week).
Saturday is more what I’d call a “day of rest,” but I don’t really observe a
formal day of rest.



Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, Maryland



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]



Hello everyone,



apart from the matter of calendar weeks and religious traditions, is there
anyone living in a western country who has the *feeling *that a new week
begins on sunday? I definitely have not; when I wish you "Schönes
Wochenende" this clearly includes the Sunday; and for all the people I know
Monday is the first day of the new week. When somebody says "We will spend
this weekend on Fehmarn" everybody knows they will go to Fehmarn for
Saturday and Sunday. It would feel curious to *begin *a new week with a day
of rest. I would feel uneasy with it. Usually rest is what you need when you
have *finished *something. Or what say you?



Hartlich



Marlou



----------



From: "Peter Snepvangers" <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>

Subject: LL-L"Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



Ben,


 You wrote:I'm on a list about the Norwegian language
mailto:norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com<norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com>.
Every now and then I hear dates demarcated in week numbers that, how liberal
of them, start on a Monday. They were asking if this practice goes on in the
Brittish Isles or elsewhere, being that they mentioned that the EU does it.



Hello Ben, Luc, Ron, Sandy et al,


Seems like we have 2 separate traditions here. Naming the days of the week
after old Norse, Germanic or Roman gods based on the 28 day lunar cycle and
another tradition of naming the days in a numerical fashion such as the
Hebrew (Sabbath is the seventh day, Saturday) and Mandarin Chinese (xing shi
yi  is Monday, first day of the week).


Some countries have a mish mash of both systems due to religion etc. Why
would Mandarin with its long history not have a celestial tradition I
wonder?



Cheers

Peter Snepvangers

Sydney Australia

snepvangers at optushome.com.au



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Tradition



Peter,

The Chinese system you referred to is fairly new and is foreign-inspired.



The original Chinese week had ten days:



The Chinese 10 day week went as far back as the Shang Dynasty (1200-1045
BC).[15] The law in the Han Dynasty (206 BC – AD 220) required officials of
the empire to rest every 5 days, called "mu", while it was changed into 10
days in the Tang Dynasty (AD 618 – 907), called "huan" or xún (旬). Months
were almost 3 weeks long (alternating 29 and 30 days to keep in line with
the lunation). The weeks were labelled shàng xún (上旬), zhōng xún (中旬), and
xià xún (下旬) which mean roughly "upper", "middle" and "lower" week.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week#China]



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 14:31:16 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 07:31:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.073116.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>

Subject: LLL Traditions



I've answered my own question about the Kalenderwoch.



http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/



Ben



----------



From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Sandy,



You wrote:



I'm only looking on Wikipedia and things, but I don't see any sort of
week associated with Germanic tribes. It would be a bit of a coincidence
if they had the same length of week as the Christians brought along,
surely? Or did our venerable ancestors just not bother with all that
sort of rot?



I think they did divide a month somewhat. A lunar cycle lasts roughly 28
days (moon > month), half that is a fortnight (= fourteen nights), and half
that again (7 nights) would be a week, corresponding with the 4 phases of
the moon. Whether they attached a special significance to the changing of
weeks, I highly doubt. Then when religion came about and Jews were gathering
on a Saturday, I guess it's convenient for Muslims and Christians to choose
either one day before or one day after Saturday for a religious celebration.
Maybe because in the early days, some liked to worship more than one god,
and therefore celebrations should not coincide?



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx



----------



From: jmtait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



Sandy wrote:

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]


The Celts used an eight day week and the Basques a three day week, is
that right? It depends on your definition of "week", of course, but if
you take it to mean a short cycle of recurring days patterned to a
lifestyle, probably each with a name to identify what sort of things we
should be doing that day, then I suppose that's right.


I'm only looking on Wikipedia and things, but I don't see any sort of
week associated with Germanic tribes. It would be a bit of a coincidence
if they had the same length of week as the Christians brought along,
surely? Or did our venerable ancestors just not bother with all that
sort of rot?


Hmm. So why are all the days called after Roman and Germanic deities, then?

John M Tait.



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (04) [EN]



Hallo Lowlanners,



wat ick bether noch nich wüßt heff... Nu schuw ick dit roewer, wat nu kümmt:



http://www.nabkal.de/judkal.html



"Dat Klennern" im Kalender lesen, blättern ist gar nicht so einfach...



Hartlich Gräuten an all'.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 22:58:57 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 15:58:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.155857.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (04) [EN]



Hi Marlou,

> From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]
> Hello everyone,
> apart from the matter of calendar weeks and religious traditions, is there
> anyone living in a western country who has the feeling that a new week
> begins on sunday? I definitely have not; when I wish you "Schönes
> Wochenende" this clearly includes the Sunday; and for all the people I
know
> Monday is the first day of the new week. When somebody says "We will spend
> this weekend on Fehmarn" everybody knows they will go to Fehmarn for
> Saturday and Sunday. It would feel curious to begin a new week with a day
of
> rest. I would feel uneasy with it. Usually rest is what you need when you
> have finished something. Or what say you?
>
> Hartlich
> Marlou
Well, for us (being Seventh-Day-Adventist) we keep Saturday (Sabbath)
free from work and free from housework and Sunday is the day where we
put all the work that is left over from the week before. So of course,
it is still weekend, but it is also the beginning of our week.

But "this weekend" reminds me of another quirk: for me
* "this weekend" is the weekend that follows immediately,
* whereas "next weekend" is the weekend that follow after "this weekend".

But I freqently notice that quite some people do not see it this way
and say "next weekend" when they mean actually "this weekend".

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 23:00:52 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:00:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.04 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.160052.0700.>

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: Keen Geld mehr för Platt



In case you did not know:
http://www.taz.de/1/nord/rtikel/1/keen-geld-moer/

"Schleswig-Holstein will die Mittel für das Institut für
niederdeutsche Sprache kappen."

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 23:02:27 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:02:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.04 (04) [EN]
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From: Paul Tatum <pauletatum at googlemail.com>

Subject: LL-L History



Hi all, just found this snippet about a newly discovered Saxon boat:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-11187207

Cheers, Paul Tatum.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 23:08:37 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:08:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.04 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.160837.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language politics



The article link Heiko sent us today was missing a letter. Here is the
correct link:

http://www.taz.de/1/nord/artikel/1/keen-geld-moer/



Budget cuts were blamed for kicking Low Saxon to the curb when I was a kid.
They remain a very convenient excuse.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 16:34:26 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:34:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.093426.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]



> From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
>

> I think they did divide a month somewhat. A lunar cycle lasts roughly
> 28 days (moon > month), half that is a fortnight (= fourteen nights),
> and half that again (7 nights) would be a week, corresponding with the
> 4 phases of the moon. Whether they attached a special significance to
> the changing of weeks, I highly doubt. Then when religion came about
> and Jews were gathering on a Saturday, I guess it's convenient for
> Muslims and Christians to choose either one day before or one day
> after Saturday for a religious celebration. Maybe because in the early
> days, some liked to worship more than one god, and therefore
> celebrations should not coincide?



I read somewhere, once, ages ago, that the earliest Christians were in
the habit of meeting secretly once the Jewish celebrations had finished
(presumably they either still saw themselves as Jews or had to pretend
to do the Sabbath). These meetings could extend well into the night and
eventually became part of Sunday. Presumably this is all just guessing.

> From: jmtait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]
>
> Sandy wrote:
>
> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]

> Hmm. So why are all the days called after Roman and Germanic deities,
> then?


Oh yeah. I dunno :\

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (02) [EN]



There has been international standardization as to the order of days and
weeks:



ISO 8601 gives (translating from a standardization magazine from 1989):



- The first day of the week is Monday

- The week of the year with number 1 is the week that includes the first
Thursday of the week.



I see that in Belgian diaries the week starts with Monday.

I have a little COOP 2010-2011 diary of Harvard/MIT: it starts the week with
Sunday.



Anyhow International Standardization often applies to all countries except
to the US.



However the US is not alone, I remember I bought a diary several years ago
in Bejing, and its week numbering (for that year) was one unit offset with
the ISO system. I don't remember whether the weeks started on Sunday or
Monday in that one.



The (occupied) Southern Netherlands have had weeks of 10 days (decades) from
1895 till 1802.

cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar



See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week_number#Week_numbering



Emotionally Sunday has always been the last day of the week for me, a day of
rest after a week of hard work. We were also used to wear "Sunday clothes"
on Sunday. In our Roman Catholic tradition one was used to go to one of the
Sunday Masses. One was "read" at 7 am, a second "sung" at 10 am. In my youth
the service was still in Latin, pronounced in the S-way: Sézar for Caesar,
not Kaizar as modern scholars often do. The tradition of going to Sunday
Roman Catholic services is fading out in Belgium.



Regards,

Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 16:36:00 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:36:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.05 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.093600.0700.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.04 (03) [DE-EN]



Man kricht die Seite zu sehen, wenn man in der Adresse

das fehlende "a" im Wort "rtikel" ergänzt.

Apropos Wort. Mir fehlen diese nach Lektüre

des von Heiko gelinkten taz-Artikels.

Hoffen wir, dass die anderen Länder diesen

Unsinn nicht mitmachen.

Kumpelmenten, Mike Wintzer



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 17:11:55 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:11:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.101155.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (01) [EN]



Hi,

I remember that  -long ago-  I told you guys about Calendar Magic.
But, ouch, if nobody listens to me...

Calendar Magic shows calendars of 25 different cultures, and, besides, many
more magic things.

You download Calendar Magic here:

http://eurosoft.software.informer.com/

vr.gr.
Theo Homan



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 17:50:13 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:50:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.105013.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (01) [EN]



At 12:34 PM 05/09/2010, Sandy Fleming wrote:

I read somewhere, once, ages ago, that the earliest Christians were in
the habit of meeting secretly once the Jewish celebrations had finished
(presumably they either still saw themselves as Jews or had to pretend
to do the Sabbath). These meetings could extend well into the night and
eventually became part of Sunday. Presumably this is all just guessing.


Sorry, I couldn't stay on the sidelines any longer.  The seven day week
comes out of prehistoric antiquity in the Middle East, in particular in
Babylon.  The "Jews" normalized this by writing Genesis 1 around this, and
this certainly was well established by the end of the Babylonian Exile in
the 6th century BCE.  No one has ever disputed that this succession of seven
day weeks has ever been broken since then.

The early Christian church spread primarily in port cities around the
Mediterranean where there were Jewish settlements, as the Christian
"message" resonated much more among the diaspora Jews than among non-Jews.
 No one disputes that a very large portion of early Christians were Jewish
converts, and keeping Shabbat would certainly been a normal thing to do.
 Keeping Shabbat precluded travel and cooking.

You may recall that Jesus' (reputed, if you like) resurrection occurred on
the 1st day of the week, indicating at least symbolically a New Creation.
 This has always been held as a feast day, and one of travel, and so did not
in any way conflict with any Jewish customs or laws per se.  Christians were
supposed to dedicate the day to this feast by attending a meal (typically in
the evening, hence the Germanic word for the Mass, "Abendmahl" "Nachtmiel"
etc. and performing other tasks appropriate to the day such as study and
prayer.  Of course, there is nothing "Biblical" about this, and is all
"tradition".

Apparently many people chose to ignore the day even though golf hadn't been
invented yet, and the church tried to crack down.  It was the Emperor
Constantine who turned the "Lord's Day" into church law at the Council of
Nicea in 325 CE.  Of course, many people continue to confuse this day with
Shabbat, but they are really two different things.  There are still some
Christians who, in their own way, keep Shabbos.

We should really thank the Babylonians for creating the week, the Jews for
giving us one day off, and the Christians for inventing le "weekend"  (or,
as they say in Quebec, "la fin de semaine").

The Babylonians were also involved in the early beginnings of our solar
calendar.  You mathematicians may know that the idea of 360 degrees in a
circle came out of Babylon, possibly because of the many wonderful ways of
division, and being 12 moons of 30 days each, with five extra days left
over.

The Romans had this crazy system which was only partly solar, and mostly
lunar.  At the new moon, you had the first nine days (the Nones) and then
the first fifteen days (the Ides), and then whatever was left over until the
end of that moon.  Disputes about dates for payments, etc., were determined
by the Pontiff (no, not the RC Pontiff), who was subject to be influenced by
bribery.  Julius Caesar (pronounce it any way you please) went to Egypt and
brought back their purely solar calendar, with alternating months of 30 and
31 days, with one having 29, and then 30 in the leap year.  His nephew
thought his month should have at least as many days, which is why August
breaks the pattern, and February has but 28.

You can pick any day of the week as your first, but for the various peoples
of the Book, the First Day will always be Sunday.  The Quakers even did away
with the pagan names that became attached to them, and Quaker children in
many places still attend First Day School, and Christmas is on the 25th of
Twelfth Month.

Ed Alexander
Canada



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 20:24:54 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 13:24:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (05) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.132454.0700.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (02) [EN]



Hello Heiko,



I think there was a discussion here some time ago about this northern german
peculiarity. I have seen meetings fail because northern germans and people
from elsewhere had different notions about what was "diesen Dienstag" :-)
But as to what "dieser Dienstag" or "this weekend" is, it can extend into
the past as well. "Dieses" is always the named day or weekend that is
closest to the time of speaking, I think, whereas "nächstes" (future) or
"letztes" (past) is one instance farther off. If you return to your job on a
Monday you may ask your colleague "Was hast du denn dieses Wochenende
gemacht?" And he may say "Ich war im Arboretum in Ellerhoop!" You say: "Da
war ich letztes Wochenende!" Now you may switch into future: "Und was machst
du dieses Wochenende?" "Na was wohl, Pauli gegen HSV!" "Ach, ist das nicht
erst nächstes Wochenende?" -- So "dieses" is always the closest weekend, be
it future or past. Being a Hamburger, do you agree?



Pauli:HSV 3:1! :-)



Marlou



From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (04) [EN]



Hi Marlou,

> From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]
> Hello everyone,
> apart from the matter of calendar weeks and religious traditions, is there
> anyone living in a western country who has the feeling that a new week
> begins on sunday? I definitely have not; when I wish you "Schönes
> Wochenende" this clearly includes the Sunday; and for all the people I
know
> Monday is the first day of the new week. When somebody says "We will spend
> this weekend on Fehmarn" everybody knows they will go to Fehmarn for
> Saturday and Sunday. It would feel curious to begin a new week with a day
of
> rest. I would feel uneasy with it. Usually rest is what you need when you
> have finished something. Or what say you?
>
> Hartlich
> Marlou
Well, for us (being Seventh-Day-Adventist) we keep Saturday (Sabbath)
free from work and free from housework and Sunday is the day where we
put all the work that is left over from the week before. So of course,
it is still weekend, but it is also the beginning of our week.

But "this weekend" reminds me of another quirk: for me
* "this weekend" is the weekend that follows immediately,
* whereas "next weekend" is the weekend that follow after "this weekend".

But I freqently notice that quite some people do not see it this way
and say "next weekend" when they mean actually "this weekend".

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 23:18:32 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 16:18:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (06) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.161832.0700.>

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (05) [DE-EN]



Hi Marlou,


> I think there was a discussion here some time ago about this northern
german
> peculiarity. I have seen meetings fail because northern germans and people
> from elsewhere had different notions about what was "diesen Dienstag" :-)
> But as to what "dieser Dienstag" or "this weekend" is, it can extend into
> the past as well. "Dieses" is always the named day or weekend that is
> closest to the time of speaking, I think, whereas "nächstes" (future) or
> "letztes" (past) is one instance farther off. If you return to your job on
a
> Monday you may ask your colleague "Was hast du denn dieses Wochenende
> gemacht?" And he may say "Ich war im Arboretum in Ellerhoop!" You say: "Da
> war ich letztes Wochenende!" Now you may switch into future: "Und was
machst
> du dieses Wochenende?" "Na was wohl, Pauli gegen HSV!" "Ach, ist das nicht
> erst nächstes Wochenende?" -- So "dieses" is always the closest weekend,
be
> it future or past. Being a Hamburger, do you agree?



If you say "was hast du dieses Wochenende gemacht", it is referring to
the past weekend, because the sentence is in perfect tense.
If you say "was machst du dieses Wochenende" it might be ambiguous on
Monday, but certainly not on Tuesday because business work quickly
wears off the recreation from the past weekend. So it is not the
question which weekend (past or future) is nearer.

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  6 18:14:11 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:14:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.6.SEP.2010.111411.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (04) [EN]



I'm not a Christian or any other "Person of the Book" myself.  But doesn't
Genesis have God labouring for six days making everything, then taking a day
off to rest? To precis a bit, "On the First Day he made this, on The Second
he made that, on the Third, he made the other", and so on.



It's my understanding that according to the Bible we get Sunday off, because
God did; So surely our "day of rest" is logically the last day of the week,
not the first? (The first being used for creating universes, or serving at
supermarket counters, depending on your abilities and responsibility level).
Oh, and getting resurrected; that supposedly happened on Monday (three days
after dying) not a Sunday.



Paul

Derby

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  6 19:51:41 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 12:51:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.6.SEP.2010.125141.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]



> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (04) [EN]

> It's my understanding that according to the Bible we get Sunday off,
> because God did; So surely our "day of rest" is logically the last day
> of the week, not the first? (The first being used for creating
> universes, or serving at supermarket counters, depending on your
> abilities and responsibility level). Oh, and getting resurrected; that
> supposedly happened on Monday (three days after dying) not a Sunday.

But God was Jewish back then :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]



At 02:14 PM 06/09/2010, Paul wrote:

I'm not a Christian or any other "Person of the Book" myself.  But doesn't
Genesis have God labouring for six days making everything, then taking a day
off to rest? To precis a bit, "On the First Day he made this, on The Second
he made that, on the Third, he made the other", and so on.


It's my understanding that according to the Bible we get Sunday off, because
God did; So surely our "day of rest" is logically the last day of the week,
not the first? (The first being used for creating universes, or serving at
supermarket counters, depending on your abilities and responsibility level).
Oh, and getting resurrected; that supposedly happened on Monday (three days
after dying) not a Sunday.


Oh, dear, oh, dear.  (1) The days of the week in the Bible do not have
names, but are numbered, (2) Genesis 2:2 says "And on the seventh day God
ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all
his work which he had made."  (1611 AV)  The Hebrew for seventh day is Yom
ha shviyi.  The text makes a play on words on the the ordinal of the word
seventh, "sheba", with the word "shabath" which means to rest.  (3) This is
therefore the day of rest celebrated by the Jews, which is our Saturday.  If
you're not sure about this, you might want to check with your local
synagogue.  (4) If the Resurrection was on Monday, why is Easter always on a
Sunday.  Can Christians really have been that mistaken for so long?  Oh, and
BTW, God did not "make" anything on Day One.  You might want to check this
out.

And let me be the first to wish everyone a Shanah Tova!

Ed Alexander





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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  6 23:20:45 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 16:20:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.6.SEP.2010.162045.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (02) [EN]



> From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]

> you might want to check with your local synagogue.  (4) If the
> Resurrection was on Monday, why is Easter always on a Sunday.  Can
> Christians really have been that mistaken for so long?



It's a valid way to count, just as in French we say "huit jours".

In arithmetic it's always necessary to make it clear whether "A to
B" (eg "Friday to Sunday") is inclusive of both endpoints or exclusive.
And of course they may both be included or excluded, or one excluded and
the other excluded, so there's a fair bit of leeway depending on your
cultural counting systems.

So if we say Jesus rose on the third day, that could be Sunday, it all
just depends.

By the way, as I've explained before, in Scots Sunday _must_ be taken as
the first day of the week and this gives expressions such as "next
Wednesday" much more range and accuracy than in English.


Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 01:04:20 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 18:04:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Dear Lowlanders,

When it comes to “lobster” (*Nephropidae*), specifically “European lobster”
(*Homarus gammarus*), I want to say *Hummer* in Low Saxon (as also in
German), although I am aware that in some parts of Northern Germany, such as
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, the word is *Lobster* (probably due to
English influence).



The Nordic Germanic languages all have variants of *hummer*, as do
Lithuanian (*omaras*), Latvian (*omārs*), Estonian (*homaar*) and Finnish (*
hummeri*), and also the Slavic languages.



Aiming at an interregional readership in a Low Saxon writing project, I need
to decide whether to use *Hummer* or *Lobster*. What is your advice?



Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 04:26:52 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:26:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.6.SEP.2010.212652.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (03) [EN]



At 07:20 PM 06/09/2010, Sandy wrote:

So if we say Jesus rose on the third day, that could be Sunday, it all
just depends.



In this regard, you may be interested to know that in the Jewish way of
counting days, the new day starts in the evening.  Vayahi erev, vayahi
voker, yom echad.  "There was evening, and there was morning, day one."
 Genesis 1:5.

Ed Alexander



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 04:28:32 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:28:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (06) [EN]
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]



Hi Ron,

All I can say is that here around Hamburg the word lobster is not
known. And it is not part of the usual vocabulary of English at school
either.

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 16:10:10 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:10:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.07 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.7.SEP.2010.091010.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



Marlou asked: “is there anyone living in a western country who has the *feeling
*that a new week begins on sunday?”



Well, yes, I do. But, I also consider Sunday to be part of the weekend.
Strange I suppose.



By the way, I work for a governmental agency that administers Unemployment
Insurance. We pay benefits by weeks, and our weeks begin on Sundays and end
on Saturdays. Therefore, Saturday September 4 was in a different week than
Sunday September 5.



One of our policies says that if you were physically unable to work for more
than one day in a week, we cannot pay you benefits for that week. If you
were unable to work on Saturday and Sunday, we can pay you benefits for both
weeks, because those days fall in different weeks.



Mark Brooks



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 16:14:55 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:14:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.07 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.7.SEP.2010.091455.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Dear Lowlanders,

When it comes to “lobster” (*Nephropidae*), specifically “European lobster”
(*Homarus gammarus*), I want to say *Hummer* in Low Saxon (as also in
German), although I am aware that in some parts of Northern Germany, such as
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, the word is *Lobster* (probably due to
English influence).



The Nordic Germanic languages all have variants of *hummer*, as do
Lithuanian (*omaras*), Latvian (*omārs*), Estonian (*homaar*) and Finnish (*
hummeri*), and also the Slavic languages.



Aiming at an interregional readership in a Low Saxon writing project, I need
to decide whether to use *Hummer* or *Lobster*. What is your advice?



I've never heard "Lobster" in Low Saxon. Where have you read or heard that
word? The word "Hummer"/"hommer" is present in Low Saxon, German and Dutch
(according to my etymological dictionaries it's a loan from a Scandinavian
language in all three of them). "Lobster" is only known in some Low Saxon
dialects and in English. If you aim at interregional understandability
"Hummer" is the choice.

If "Lobster" is from Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, "Hummer" has also the
advantage to stem from a region where there actually are lobsters. Lobsters
live around Helgoland in the North Sea, but they do not live in the Baltic
Sea.

It would be interesting whether there are any native Low Saxon words for it.
My etymological dictionaries say that the word "Hummer" entered German in
the 16th century. If the situation is similar for Low Saxon there must have
been a native word before. Helgoland, the main habitat, was and is
Frisian-speaking but most of the Helgolandian contact with the outside world
was conducted in Low Saxon.

On the other hand, Helgoland being the only lobster habitat close to the Low
Saxon regions it's very plausible that the word used by Helgolandians is
also the word used by their Low Saxon customers. So if there were native
terms they are almost certainly extinct now.

By the way, Ron, could "Lobster" be part of "GDR language"? Like "Broiler"?

Marcus Buck



----------



From: Uwe Tychsen <tychsen at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]



Leive Ron,

bi uns in Oosholstein heit se uk *Hummer*. Övrigens uk in Däänmark: *Hummer*.
De Helgolänner secht *Hómer*, uk wenn de Insel bet 1890 tau England hüürt
het. (min Fruu Ilse kümmt daar her).

Ik grüss di ut Niestat
Uwe



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]



Nu kam ick, leiw' Lowlanners,



*Lobster,* Pl. -s m. Hummer, Lobstersalat m, Hummersalat. BRI. : John
Brinckmanns Plattdeutsche Werke. Band 2, 37; 4, 55,

hg. von der Arbeitsgruppe der Plattdeutschen Gilde zu Rostock. 7 Bde.
(Wolgast)Greifswald 1924 - 1934. - Pl. Nachl.: John Brinckmans Nachlaß, hg.
von A. Römer, Plattdeutscher Teil. 3 Bde. Berlin o.J. - Volkssp.:
Mecklenburgischer Volksspiegel aus plattdeutschen Sprichwörtern
undKernsprüchen. In: Ndd. Jb. 31, 22ff.



Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert



*Hummer:* Der Name des Schalentieres scheint sich von Skandinavien, an
dessen norwegischer Küste seit alters gute Möglichkeiten für den Hummerfang
bestehen, ausgebreitet zu haben. Im dt. Sprachgebiet war das Wort zunächst
auf das Niederd. beschränkt. Seit dem 16 Jh. erlangte es gemeinsprachliche
Geltung. Niederl. hummer, isl. humar, norw.,schwed., dän. hummer, mit denen
wahrscheinlich griech. kámmaros "eine Art Krebs" verwandt ist, gehören
vermutlich im Sinne "gewölbtes oder

[mit einer Schale] bedecktes Tier" zu der unter *Hemd* dargestellten idg.
Wurzel *kem- "bedecken, umhüllen".



niederd.: niederdeutsch, niederl.: niederländisch.



Lit.: DUDEN 7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache



Und noch dieses:



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummer



Die Hummergabel liegt schon bereit, "nu gah ick in denn' Fischladen un köp
mi 'n Lobster", aber ich glaube, die Verkäuferin kennt dieses Wort nicht...



Hartlich Gräuten.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 00:44:21 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:44:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.07 (03) [EN-FR]
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.07 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]



*> From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>*

*> I've never heard "Lobster" in Low Saxon. Where have you read or heard
that word? The word "Hummer"/"hommer" is present in Low Saxon, German and
Dutch (according to my etymological dictionaries it's a loan from a
Scandinavian language in all three of them). "Lobster" is only known in some
Low Saxon dialects and in English. If you aim at interregional
understandability "Hummer" is the choice.*



I use "Kreeft" in Dutch for Eng "lobster", Germ "Krebs", French "Homard".



For the French "Homard" Littré gives a Scandinavian etymology:

Dannois, "hommer", allem. "Hummer".



I don't know whether there is a big difference (or semantic overlap) in
German between "Hummer" and "Krebs".



Trévour 1743-1753 gives:

Homard, ... grosse écrevisse de mer. En Latin "astacus"...



For "écrevisse" Littré gives for etymology:

Génev. "écrivisse"; picard "écréviche", wallon "grèvèse", namur "gravase",
rouchi "graviche"; du germanique: anc. Haut allem. "schrepiz"; allem.
"Krebs".

[Comment: "rouchi" is a variant of Picard in the Valenciennois, adjacent to
the Belgian border]



"Ecrevisse" corresponds generally to the small crayfish, crawfish, Dutch
"rivierkreeft", German "Flußkrebs".



In my South-Western Limburgish I would use the French "Homard" for designing
lobster served as food.

It is not unusual the see French designations on printed menus.



Regards,

Roger



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Thanks, Roger.



In Low Saxon of Germany, *Kreeft* ~ *Krääft* means ‘crab’ in general (as
does German *Krebs*). In common parlance in many Low Saxon dialects (also on
the Netherlands side of the border), ‘crab’ may be referred to as *Dwarslöper
~ Dwarsloper*, literally meaning “athwart/sideways runner/walker’. I suppose
this excludes lobsters and their ilk.



There’s some confusion. *Krabb* (German *Krabbe*) ought to and in some cases
does mean ‘crab’. But somehow it came to mean ‘shrimp’ in many dialects ...
though many Low Saxon dialects cann ‘shrimp’ *Granaat*. It’s a mess!



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 00:54:28 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:54:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.07 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.7.SEP.2010.175428.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 07 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.07 (01) [EN]



Dear Mark, the benefits thing makes me a convert to the Sunday-is-Day-1-rule
immediately. This is a *really* convincing argument!! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



One of our policies says that if you were physically unable to work for more
than one day in a week, we cannot pay you benefits for that week. If you
were unable to work on Saturday and Sunday, we can pay you benefits for both
weeks, because those days fall in different weeks.



Mark Brooks



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (02) [EN]



From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca<http://mc/compose?to=edsells at cogeco.ca>
>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]



" Can Christians really have been that mistaken for so long?  Oh, and BTW,
God did not "make" anything on Day One.  You might want to check this out.


And let me be the first to wish everyone a Shanah Tova!

Ed Alexander



Don't believe a word of any of it personally, so I don't really care what
day things are or aren't supposed to have happened.



But Shanah Tova to you too, providing that's a Good Thing.



Paul



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Tradition



Paul,


*Shanah Tovah* (שנה טובה) literally means “A good year” and is one of the
Hebrew greetings for Rosh HaShanah (ראש השנה), the Jewish New Year, which
will begin tomorrow at nightfall and will usher in the year 5771 (and only
hard-line literalist Jews believe that God created the world 5771 years
ago).



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 17:36:44 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:36:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Travel" 2010.09.08 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.8.SEP.2010.103644.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 08 September 2010 - Volume 01
*lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com<Osnabryg%2BLowlands at googlemail.com>
>

Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2010.09.08 [01] [NL]



Beste Laaglanders (bepaaldelijk in België en Nederland),

*- This is a personal holidays concern, which if ever is relevant only for
our Netherland and Belgian compagnons. Sorry for annoyance. Not necessary
for all others to read further. -
*
Dit is een persoonlijk vraag/verzoek , die indien dan al alleen voor
LL-maten in Nederland/België van belang kan zijn. - Mijn excuses voor de
overlast.

Om eindelijk de west- en zuid-westelijke deel van mijne Laaglandse heimat
meer te kennen en om in de hedendaagse standaardtaal van het
Nederfrankisch-Saksisch taalgebied (het Alg. Besch. NL) te vlotten ben ik
van plan, *drie weken in de Lage Landen met fiets- en vaartochten te
slijten.*

*Wie van jou gereed en belangstellend is met mij en ontmoeting te hebben,
zou me graag en persoonlijk e-mail toesturen*, opdat wij wellicht wat
afmaken kunnen. - Tijdens de middelbare week (26 september - 2 october - en
evt. volgens 7 october, dan op de weg van Gent naar de Duitse grens) zou ik
ook hulp kunnen hoeven bij het zoeken naar  en goedkope
overnachtingsmogelijkheid.

Het *raamwerk van mijne reis* is:

   - 18 - 25 september fiets- en vaartocht (hotelschip) Gent - Brugge -
   Dendermonde - Antwerpen (20/21-09) - Gouda - Amsterdam (door Belgian
   Biking),
   - weekend *25/26 september Amsterdam* (overnachting bij "vrienden op de
   fiets" al versorgd),
   - volgende week *(26/27-09 tot 2 october) met fiets van A'dam naar Gent*,
   maar route en (slaap-)plaatsen nog open - die moet ik nog plannen.
   - 2-7 Oktober: *fietstrektocht in Oost-Vlaanderen* (Gent - Temse/Bornem -
   Geraardsbergen - Kluisbergen - Gent). Door Fietsvakantiewinkel.nl, hotels
   geboekt.
   - Vanaf 7 Oktober per trein direct of met één, twee onderbrekingen,
   indien en afspraakje eruit blijkt van Gent naar Berlijn. Terug in Berlijn
   10/11 oktober, het laatste.


Ik zou blij zijn reacties erop per PM uit de Lage Landen te krijgen …
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«

 joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries

Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 17:39:44 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:39:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.08 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.8.SEP.2010.103944.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 08 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Marlou,



You wrote:



Dear Mark, the benefits thing makes me a convert to the Sunday-is-Day-1-rule
immediately. This is a *really *convincing argument!! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



One of our policies says that if you were physically unable to work for more
than one day in a week, we cannot pay you benefits for that week. If you
were unable to work on Saturday and Sunday, we can pay you benefits for both
weeks, because those days fall in different weeks.



Mark Brooks



I understand the financial benefit you will get under Mark's system from
being ill on both Saturday and Sunday...but you would get the same profit if
weeks would end on a, say Wednesday, and Thursday would be the first day of
the new week. As long as end and beginning are adjacent, you can straddle
two weeks, being absent for only two days.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 17:44:50 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:44:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.08 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.8.SEP.2010.104450.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 08 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"



Beste Ron,



You wrote:



There’s some confusion. *Krabb* (German *Krabbe*) ought to and in some cases
does mean ‘crab’. But somehow it came to mean ‘shrimp’ in many dialects ...
though many Low Saxon dialects cann ‘shrimp’ *Granaat*. It’s a mess!



Many Dutch dialects also have something along the lines of "ge(e)rnaat" (B),
"grenaat" for shrimp, instead of standard "garnaal". Unclear etymology,
maybe derived from a personal name.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



---------



From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.07 (03) [EN-FR]



Nu gifft/giwwt dat noch 'n Nahklapp,



Dwaslöper, Dwarslöper: Syn. Kräwt: Taschenkrebs (Wismar/Kirchdorf).

Kräwt, auch Taschenkräwt; cancer 'ein Krevet' (über dem 1. e steht noch ein
ganz kleines e, was nicht in der Zeichentabelle aufgeführt ist); Krähft,
Kraeft; kindersprachlich: Kriweldi-Kraweldi-Kräwt; nach der Häutung im
Sommer nennt man den Flußkrebs wegen seiner noch weichen Schale
'Botterkräwt, auch Slu- und Muterkräwt.



http://www.kinder-tierlexikon.de/t/taschenkrebs.htm



Ein Dwaslöper ist auch ein Querläufer, ein widerborstiger Mensch, Junge,
Dienstbote; aber in der Gegend Parchim/Dobbertin handelt es sich um einen
munteren Knaben.



Krabb, auch Kraff, Krapp, Pl. Krabben, Krappen.

Glöw mi säker, Wismarsch Krabben,  dat sünd gor kein slichte Happen.



Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert



So as ümmer.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 18:09:06 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:09:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.08 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.8.SEP.2010.110906.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Marlou,



You wrote:



Dear Mark, the benefits thing makes me a convert to the Sunday-is-Day-1-rule
immediately. This is a *really *convincing argument!! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



One of our policies says that if you were physically unable to work for more
than one day in a week, we cannot pay you benefits for that week. If you
were unable to work on Saturday and Sunday, we can pay you benefits for both
weeks, because those days fall in different weeks.



Mark Brooks



I understand the financial benefit you will get under Mark's system from
being ill on both Saturday and Sunday...but you would get the same profit if
weeks would end on a, say Wednesday, and Thursday would be the first day of
the new week. As long as end and beginning are adjacent, you can straddle
two weeks, being absent for only two days.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 14:38:00 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:38:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.09 (01) [NL]
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.073800.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.08 (02) [EN]



Beste oaltegoare,



In Oostende (West-Vlaanmse kust) wordt de maandag als eerste dag beschouwd.



vrijdag, zaterdag en zondag noemen we ook: 't énde van de weke;

maandag en dinsdag: 't begun van de weke;

woensdag e donderdag: 't midn van de weke.



Vele werkers kregen de zaterdag hun loon. Die dag werd er ook een bad
genomen. Vandaar:

    zoaterdag woaterdag

    loate noened én gélddag

        zaterdag waterdag, late middag en gelddag)



Anderzijds was er ook een kinderbalspel waarbij alle medespelers de naam van
een dag hadden. De naam van dit spel was: "zundag-moandag"...Daar wordt de
"zondag" dus het eerst genoemd.

Bij ons zou er niemand de zondag de eerste dag noemen! De maandag werd er
gezegd: me moen were wérkn (we moeten weer werken).



Toetnoasteki,



Roland Desnerck

Watergangstraat 9

8420 De Haan

West-Vlaanderen



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 14:39:40 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:39:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.073940.0700.>

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>

Subject: lexicon



Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 14:40:55 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:40:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN] Correction
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.074055.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: lexicon



Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 14:42:49 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:42:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN] Correction
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Q_KbTm-P5=k1h471dkFz2PhO3i=jOw6MFtnPD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.074249.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 09 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: lexicon



Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 23:32:57 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:32:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.163257.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 09 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"



Beste Helge,

You wrote:

> I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a
truly Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?
>

 Common (Indo)-Germanic word I think. Dutch has "drijten" for "to poop",
Russian has "dristatj" (phonetic) for the same activity and Latin has
"stercus" for dung). Achterhoeks: "dretterig" = suffering from diarrhea.
Also Southern Dutch dialect "drets", "drits" for "mud" (E) and "dretsen",
"dressen", drasjen" for "to splash". A heavy shower of rain, happening on
the Belgian National Holiday, is therefore called the "drache nationale" in
Belgian French:

http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/drache_nationale

By the way, the etymology on that page, given for "drache" is completely
wrong...the word is not cognate with German "dreschen", "to thresh"
(E)...which is "dös(e)n" in Brabantish.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



----------



From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>

Subject: Etymology



Hello!

Helge Tietz wrote:
> I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a
> truly Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to
> express objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld
> (Lower Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note,
> we have crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end.
> Amazingly, in Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled
> "drit") meaning exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same
> context. Moreover, English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be
> derived from the Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the
> Vikings about 1000 years ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish,
> Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has this expression (as far as I know) and I
> am wondering whether the word "drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent
> "driss") is derived from common Germanic language heritage or whether it
> has been ex/imported to one or the other area at one point. I am
> suspecting the former because the latter would mean that there has been
> some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and Norway during the
> Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings obviously sailed up
> the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages left a linguistic
> trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the expression
> "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

The word "driit", "driet" is indeed used in Westphalian Low Saxon, mostly as
feminine "driete". It also means "dirt" or even "shit".
It is also sometimes used in Ruhrdeutsch, e.g. "Wat dat gestern widda
für ne Driete wa!". The "liquid equivalent" is "miege", also used
both in Westphalian Low Saxon and Ruhrdeutsch.

Gued gaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.rub.de
Bochum



----------



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN]



From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: lexicon



Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge



The word is known in Low Saxon areas too. My Plattmakers dictionary has
entries on "drieten" ('to defecate', DE 'koten';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9594> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9594>),
"Driet" ('feces', DE 'Kot';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9597><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9597>),
"Drietsack" ('douchebag', DE 'Scheißkerl';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9595> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9595>),
"Drietkeerl" (the same;
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9630><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9630>),
"drietendick" ('completely drunk', DE 'scheißbesoffen';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9596> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9596>)
"drietegaal" ("Dat is mi drietegaal!": 'I don't give a fuck', DE 'Das ist
mir scheißegal';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9599><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9599>)
and "Driethuus" ('bog/crapper', DE 'Scheißhaus';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9600> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9600>).

Here's the map for the word "drieten":
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=map&id=9594><http://plattmakers.de/?show=map&id=9594>.
So far Plattmakers has collected only one reference from Rhade in Westfalia.
Further references are:

- Woeste: 'Westfälisches Wörterbuch', p. 57, who has "driət" ('feces') and
"driəterig" ('dirty').
- 'Wörterbuch der Westmünsterländischen Mundart', p. 236, has "Driet" (m),
"Driete" (f), both meaning 'feces; dirt; small amount, worthless small
thing', "drieten" ('defecate'), "Driet-äärs" ('douchebag'), "Driet-aos"
('douchebag'),"Drietbladd" ('hand [when playing cards] that is useless'),
"driete" ('very; totally'), "Drietebüül" ('coward; sluggard; scumbag'),
"drietegaal" (as above), "Drieteküüwen" ('bucket you defecated in in the old
times'), and about 25 more words.
- Kocks: 'Woordenboek van de Drentse dialecten', p. 227, several entries.
- Gallée: 'Woordenboek van het Geldersch-Overijssels dialect', p. 9:
"drîten" ('exonerare alveum')
- Kahl: 'Wörterbuch des Münsterländer Platt', p. 300, has "Drite" ('dirt')
and "dritendik" ('completely drunk').

Dictionaries I haven't found the word in: 'Versuch eines
Bremisch-Niedersächsischen Wörterbuchs', Schambach: 'Wörterbuch der
niederdeutschen Mundart der Fürstenthümer Göttingen und Grubenhagen',
Molema: 'Woordenboek der Groningsche Volkstaal', Bauer: 'Waldeckisches
Wörterbuch nebst Dialektproben', Strodtmann: 'Idoticon Osnabrugense',
Koolman: 'Ostfriesisches Wörterbuch', Dähnert: 'Plattdeutsches Wörterbuch
nach der alten und neuen pommerschen und rügischen Mundart', Frischbier:
'Preussisches Wörterbuch', Schütze: 'Holsteinisches Idiotikon'.

This suggests to me that it is a solely Westfalian word.
To me it sounds plausible that is was a common Germanic word that fell out
of use in some regions. But if it was common Germanic it must have fallen
out of use at an early stage. There seem to be no traces in Low Saxon
outside Westfalian. That points back in time to about 500 AD, the time when
Westfalia and parts of what is now the Netherlands became saxonized. My
guess is that the Saxons had lost the word before 500, but the pre-Saxon
Westfalians still knew it and imported it in their new language. If "driet"
was a Frankish import or if "driet" fell out of use at a later date it
wouldn't be confined to Westfalia.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 10 15:54:08 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:54:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.10 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.10.SEP.2010.085408.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 10 September 2010 - Volume 01
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN]



The Oxford Dictionary says it first apperas in Middle English, from Old
Norse *drit*, as you say. In this early form it had the specific meaning of
"excrement". Old English used *fylth* ("filth"), related to "foul" and I
assume to Dutch *vuilte*?



Paul

Derby

England



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]



Hallo alle Lowlanders,



ich schlug einen anderen Weg ein und recherchierte :



MITTELHOCHDEUTSCHES TASCHENWÖRTERBUCH (30. Auflage 1962) S. HIRZEL VERLAG
LEIPZIG (1. Auflage September 1885)



drit: drei; drite: Ordnungsnummer der dritte; dris s. drîes: adv. dreimal



Gruß.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 11 14:33:24 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 07:33:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.11.SEP.2010.073324.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.10 (01) [DE-EN]



“Drieten” is  normal dutch lowsaxon slang for “to go to the toilet”  same as
Norwegian than I guess…



[Wim Verdoold]



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 11 14:35:11 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 07:35:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.11 (02) [EN]
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Culture"



Now on exhibit at the Westfries Museum in Hoorn (Friesland), the oldest
stock certificate in the world, issued by the VOC, the "Vereenigde
Oostindische Compagnie", dating from 1606. Beautiful website with more
information:

http://www.worldsoldestshare.com/

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 11 20:17:05 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:17:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.11.SEP.2010.131705.0700.>

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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]



Beste Lowlanners,



some more about "driiten" etc.



Marcus:



This suggests to me that it is a solely Westfalian word.
To me it sounds plausible that is was a common Germanic word that fell out
of use in some regions. But if it was common Germanic it must have fallen
out of use at an early stage. There seem to be no traces in Low Saxon
outside Westfalian. That points back in time to about 500 AD, the time when
Westfalia and parts of what is now the Netherlands became saxonized. My
guess is that the Saxons had lost the word before 500, but the pre-Saxon
Westfalians still knew it and imported it in their new language. If "driet"
was a Frankish import or if "driet" fell out of use at a later date it
wouldn't be confined to Westfalia.



Could the German word "Abtritt", meaning WC, be related?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



----------



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"



Dear Lowlanners,



in our local dialect of LS we use the curious term *"Basbecker"* for German
"Wiesenschnake", *Tipula paludosa. *Other trivial names in German are
'Schuster', 'Weberknecht' etc..



Let me explain the curiosity: "Basbeck" is a small village near by (just on
the half between Marcus and me, near to the maternal Low Saxon roots of
Marlou ;-)), but the name "Basbecker" for this mosquito is used in a larger
area around (ca. 40 km in circle??), in Land Hadeln as well as in Land
Kehdingen.



It would be interesting to hear from other Lowlanners

-if the name even is widerly spread out than in the named region;

-what could be the background of such a special local nickname?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 12 17:32:33 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:32:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (01) [EN]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (03) [EN]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]

some more about "driiten" etc.

Could the German word "Abtritt", meaning WC, be related?

The dictionary of the Brothers Grimm says it's from "treten". Here's the
relevant paragraph that shows the initial meaning:


der abtritt vom amte (gegenüber dem antritt), aus dem leben (hintritt), von
der bühne, vom glauben; auch wol cessio, der abtritt eines rechts,
grundstücks f. abtretung. endlich der geheime ort und gang im hause, der
abtritt, für welchen die sprache eine menge andrer namen bietet. (s.
DWBhäuschen<http://urts55.uni-trier.de:8080/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?bookref=10,655,1&mode=&prefix=hae&patternlist=>,
DWB läublein<http://urts55.uni-trier.de:8080/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?bookref=12,297,72&mode=&prefix=lae&patternlist=>,
DWB gelegenheit<http://urts55.uni-trier.de:8080/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?bookref=5,2938,72&mode=&prefix=gel&patternlist=>,
heimliches gemach, abort, ausgang, sprachhaus.)

So "Abtritt" meant a "retreat place" in the house. A place where you would
go when you 'step away' (abtreten).

Marcus Buck

 From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

in our local dialect of LS we use the curious term *"Basbecker"* for German
"Wiesenschnake", *Tipula paludosa. *Other trivial names in German are
'Schuster', 'Weberknecht' etc..

Let me explain the curiosity: "Basbeck" is a small village near by (just on
the half between Marcus and me, near to the maternal Low Saxon roots of
Marlou ;-)), but the name "Basbecker" for this mosquito is used in a larger
area around (ca. 40 km in circle??), in Land Hadeln as well as in Land
Kehdingen.

It would be interesting to hear from other Lowlanners

-if the name even is widerly spread out than in the named region;

-what could be the background of such a special local nickname?



I have no idea about the background. All I can say is that the common word
for this animal is "Schooster" in my dialect. That's the only word I know
for it. But it's possible that more competent speakers of our dialect know
the term "Basbecker" too.

Marcus Buck



----------



From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (03) [EN]



some more about "driiten" etc.

*-------Originalmeldung-------*



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]



Dear Lowlanders,



as a "Muensterlaender" by birth the expression "drieten" or much more used
as a noun "driet(e)" is pretty well known to me. in the sense: >Wi möt't
Driete fören>.

That means: The pit is full. We have to carry out manure from the barn.



P.S. Same word is used in Twentsch Platt on Dutch side.



Heinrich Becker

from Berlin



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz HanneHinz at t-online.de

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (03) [EN]



Dear Jonny and Lowlanners,



you wrote: in our local dialect of LS we use the curious term *"Basbecker" *for
German "Wiesenschnake", *Tipula paludosa. *Other trivial names in German are
'Schuster', 'Weberknecht' etc..



Look please: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weberknechte ...is it right?



Allerbest ok von mi.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 12 23:02:07 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:02:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.12.SEP.2010.160207.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 12 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (01) [EN]



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>


From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

in our local dialect of LS we use the curious term *"Basbecker"* for German
"Wiesenschnake", *Tipula paludosa. *Other trivial names in German are
'Schuster', 'Weberknecht' etc..

Let me explain the curiosity: "Basbeck" is a small village near by (just on
the half between Marcus and me, near to the maternal Low Saxon roots of
Marlou ;-)), but the name "Basbecker" for this mosquito is used in a larger
area around (ca. 40 km in circle??), in Land Hadeln as well as in Land
Kehdingen.

It would be interesting to hear from other Lowlanners

-if the name even is widerly spread out than in the named region;

-what could be the background of such a special local nickname?



I have no idea about the background. All I can say is that the common word
for this animal is "Schooster" in my dialect. That's the only word I know
for it. But it's possible that more competent speakers of our dialect know
the term "Basbecker" too.


I've done some (oral) research, the term "Basbecker" is known in our dialect
too.

Marcus Buck



----------



From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (01) [EN]



Hi all!

I actually have collected a little list of Low Saxon words I am using now
when speaking to my little child and with some of the words it occurred me
that I never really got to know what their origins are:

"aisch" > for naughty
"kruetsch" > if the child don't wants to eat the food it is supposed ot eat
"bloof" > flower, instead of common LS "bloom", might be a very local thing
for the Rendsborg district in Sleswick-Holsten
"roe" as the plural of "rad" > wheel and the same for "bloe" as the plural
of "blatt" > leave
"freemark" > stamp, I suspect Danish origin ("frimerke")
"groessoellern" instead of common LS "grootoellern", again, might be a very
local thing for the Rendsborg district
"kroeti" > for stubborn
"jitteli" > for impatient
"tueffeli" > for clumsy
"glaai" > dishonest friendliness or dishonest kindliness.
"slusoor" > for a person who is careless
"schlaeif" > for a phlegmatic person

Anyone any ideas what are the origins of those words? Pleased note, I do not
have the umlauts on my keyboard and oe is the German-o-Umlaut (Dutch > eu),
ue the German-u-Umlaut (Dutch > u) and ae the German a-Umlaut (close to
Dutch ee).

Groeten,
Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 13 16:16:44 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:16:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.13.SEP.2010.091644.0700.>

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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"



Beste Lowlanners,

this may be an interesting thread:



*quote *



Franstalige kinderen leren best eerst in het Nederlands lezen



Franstalige kinderen in de basisschool leren best eerst in het Nederlands
lezen en dan pas in hun moedertaal. De opgedane ervaring in het Nederlands
komt later het Frans ten goede. Deze opmerkelijke conclusie staat in de
eindverhandeling van taalkundige Charlotte Vandersmissen van de Vrije
Universiteit Brussel.



Samen met het Engels behoort het Frans tot de 'moeilijke talen' in de zin
dat de overeenkomst tussen wat er geschreven wordt en hoe het gelezen wordt
niet altijd eenduidig is, zo staat in een persbericht van de VUB. 'Als je
een 'o' hoort in het Nederlands is de kans groot dat je 'o' spelt, maar niet
zo in het Frans waar dit bijvoorbeeld 'eau' of 'au' kan zijn.'



Jonge kinderen die eerst in een taal zoals het Nederlands leren lezen, doen
eerst ervaring op met een makkelijke taal. Deze ervaring kunnen ze daarna
aanwenden bij het decoderen van een moeilijke taal zoals het Frans, is de
redenering.



In Franstalig België is het meertalig onderwijs in opmars. Vorig schooljaar
waren er meer dan tweehonderd scholen bij betrokken, waarvan meer dan 80
procent voor het Nederlands koos. In de basisscholen wordt maar liefst 50
tot 75 procent van het curriculum in het Nederlands onderwezen.



Bron:
De Morgen, webeditie, 27 augustus 2010
http://www.demorgen.be


'Woord van de dag'
Een initiatief van de vakgroep Nederlands, FU Berlin
Abonnement nemen/opzeggen en archief op
http://neon.niederlandistik.fu-berlin.de/woordvandedag/



*unquote*



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 13 16:19:20 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:19:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.13 (02) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.13.SEP.2010.091920.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics"



... and this as well:



*quote*



Nederlands als hoofdtaal in de Grondwet



DEN HAAG - Het kabinet gaat de Nederlandse taal in de Grondwet opnemen, zo
besloot het vrijdag. Het Nederlands wordt erin vastgelegd als de officiële
taal van ons land. Ook komt erin te staan dat de overheid het gebruik van
het Nederlands bevordert.



Het is voor alle Nederlanders de gemeenschappelijke taal en de hoofdtaal,
stelt het kabinet. 'Het voorstel tot wijziging van de Grondwet moet
waarborgen dat men in Nederland te allen tijde met de Nederlandse taal
terecht kan in het verkeer met de overheid.'

Daarbij kunnen andere talen een gewaarborgde positie in de wet hebben, zoals
het Fries en het Papiaments op Bonaire en het Engels op Sint Eustatius en
Saba.
Het wetsvoorstel en het advies van de Raad van State worden nu naar de
Tweede Kamer gestuurd.



Al in februari zei toenmalig minister Bos dat het kabinet voornemens was het
Nederlands te verankeren in de grondwet, maar toen moest nog advies worden
ingewonnen bij de Raad van State. Op het voornemen van het kabinet kwamen
gemengde reacties. Staatsrechtgeleerde Tijn Kortmann zei in de Volkskrant:
'Ik vind het onbegrijpelijk, onwenselijk en contraproductief. De Grondwet is
geen verzamelplaats voor ad hoc-wensen die afhangen van de maatschappelijke
conjunctuur. Dit bevalt mij helemaal niet.'



Overigens is het wijzigen van de grondwet geen eenvoudige procedure. Eerst
moet het voorstel door Eerste en Tweede Kamer worden aangenomen. Vervolgens
moeten er verkiezingen worden gehouden en moet het definitieve wetsvoorstel
nogmaals door beide Kamers worden geaccepteerd. Ditmaal met een tweederde
meerderheid.



Bron:
De Volkskrant, webeditie, 3 september 2010
http://www.volkskrant.nl



'Woord van de dag'
Een initiatief van de vakgroep Nederlands, FU Berlin
Abonnement nemen/opzeggen en archief op
http://neon.niederlandistik.fu-berlin.de/woordvandedag/



*unquote*



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 13 16:24:17 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:24:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.13 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.13.SEP.2010.092417.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 13 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (01) [EN]



Beste Hanne,



Du schreyvst:

Look please: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weberknechte ...is it right?



Mit de Naomens "Schuster" un' "Weberknecht" kaomt de Lüü' faoken in'n
Tüdel - dat schrivvt Wiki ouk hier:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnaken



Hesst goud opp-passt ;-)!



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



----------



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (02) [EN]



From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

I actually have collected a little list of Low Saxon words I am using now
when speaking to my little child and with some of the words it occurred me
that I never really got to know what their origins are:


"aisch" > for naughty
"kruetsch" > if the child don't wants to eat the food it is supposed ot eat
"bloof" > flower, instead of common LS "bloom", might be a very local thing
for the Rendsborg district in Sleswick-Holsten
"roe" as the plural of "rad" > wheel and the same for "bloe" as the plural
of "blatt" > leave
"freemark" > stamp, I suspect Danish origin ("frimerke")
"groessoellern" instead of common LS "grootoellern", again, might be a very
local thing for the Rendsborg district
"kroeti" > for stubborn
"jitteli" > for impatient
"tueffeli" > for clumsy
"glaai" > dishonest friendliness or dishonest kindliness.
"slusoor" > for a person who is careless
"schlaeif" > for a phlegmatic person



- "eisch" is from Germanic aiwisk (
<http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\germet&first=21><http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cgermet&first=21>)
"dishonour, disgrace, offence".
- "krütsch" is probably folk etymology connecting the word "krüüsch" with
"Kruud". "krüüsch" is a form with metathesis of "köörsch", formerly
"kürisch" from the same stem as German "küren" and English "choose". In the
end it's connected with English "choosy".
- I don't know about "Rö'" and "Blö'", but it's the same here (either "Rö'"
or "Rö'r")
- "Größöllern" is semi-Standard German. Many Low Saxon dialects know forms
like that.
- "tüffeli(g)" most likely is from "Tüffel" meaning "slipper", short for
"Pantüffel". Somebody who is "tüffelig" is clumsy like somebody who wears
slippers.
- "Sleef" means "dipper". I don't know the semantical connection between
"dipper" and phlegmatic person", but it's the same word and "phlegmatic
person" is a metaphoric use.
- "kröti(g)" is from Middle Low Saxon "krode" meaning "venomous, vicous,
malign".
- "glai" means "glistening" and is related to "glöhen" meaning "to glow".
The meaning "dishonest friendliness or dishonest kindliness" is figurative.
- "jiddeli(g)" is known here too, but I don't know the origin.
- I never heard "Bloof".

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 00:58:01 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:58:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.13.SEP.2010.175801.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 13 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: Ulpi Alvarez <email at ulpialvarez.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (01) [EN-NL]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de<http://jonny%2Emeibohm at arcor.de/>
>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning"

Beste Lowlanners,
this may be an interesting thread:


Definitely a link worth posting to facebook :-)



----------



From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (01) [EN-NL]



Hi Jonny,


> Franstalige kinderen leren best eerst in het Nederlands lezen

> ...

> Samen met het Engels behoort het Frans tot de 'moeilijke talen' in de zin
> dat de overeenkomst tussen wat er geschreven wordt en hoe het gelezen
wordt
> niet altijd eenduidig is, zo staat in een persbericht van de VUB. 'Als je
> een 'o' hoort in het Nederlands is de kans groot dat je 'o' spelt, maar
niet
> zo in het Frans waar dit bijvoorbeeld 'eau' of 'au' kan zijn.'


To me this is no surprise. I wonder how they learn to read. How do you
teach first words? Does one have to pick words that are pronounced
almost as they are written? After all I do that even in German. We
start with "MAMA", "PAPA" "OPA" and "OMA" and not with words that are
not written according to our customs at all like "GENDER
MAINSTREAMING". But with French the choices are very limited. ("Child,
forget about the last letter, we never pronounce that..:")

But the story also reminds me of an old joke:
Conversation between an Englishman, a Frenchman and a German.
(Besides: it is Englishwoman. Does the word Frenchwoman exist? But it
definitely is not Gerwoman...)
Englishman: in our language we have big differences between spelling
and pronunciation. We write "hiccough" and say "hickup".
Frenchmen: we write "cherchaient" and say "shershe"
German: well, in German it is even worse. We write "Wie bitte?" and say
"häh?".

Heiko Evermann
Hamburg



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 17:37:01 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:37:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.14 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.14.SEP.2010.103701.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (01) [EN-NL]



That is amazing! By the same logic, from what they are saying, English also
falls into the "difficult" class, so maybe we should be teaching kids to
read Dutch first?!!



I'm only half joking.  I've always felt that Dutch would be easier for early
learners to grasp than French or German, and although it has far fewer
speakers, I think it would be a "foot in the door" to language learning.  It
would go some way toward breaking down this concrete barrier we seem to have
in the UK when considering other languages.



It would be interesting to know if bilingual British people, notably Welsh
and those from immigrant families, are any better with other languages than
native Anglophones.



Paul

Derby,

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 17:38:08 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:38:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (02) [EN]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.13 (02) [EN-NL]



Also interesting....except I don't know what (or where?) "de Grondwet"
actually is!

I was also surprised to find (if I've understood correctly) that there are
semi-officially English-speaking places - Sint Eustatius and Saba; are they
in the Caribbean?



Paul

Derby

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 17:39:58 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:39:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.14 (03) [DE]
Message-ID: <TUE.14.SEP.2010.103958.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.13 (03) [EN]

insbesondere  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (02) [EN]



Liebe Lowlanners,



vielleicht kann ich auch noch etwas beitragen...



"aisch"; eisch> unartig (gilt für unartiges kleines Kind)

"kruetsch"; krüüdsch> wählerisch (beim Essen)

"bloof"> könnte hier ein Tippfehler vorliegen?  bloot: nackt; Bloot: Blut
oder Bluff: impertinenter Mensch

"bloom"> Blaum: Blume

"roe"> Röö'd : Räder; rööd: zart, mürbe

"bloe"> Zustand des Blühens

"freemark"> stamp, Briefmarke, Stempel, Marke, Kennzeichen

"groessoellern"> Grootöllern: Großeltern

"kroeti"> krötelig: kraus; kroetig: reizbar, ärgerlich

"jitteli">, giddelig, hiddelig: unruhig, aufgeregt, hastig

"tueffeli">, tüffelig, toffelig: tolpelhaft, einfältig, unbeholfen

"glaai"> glei; schier, glatt, fröhlich, freundlich

"slusoor"> Slusuhr: Schlitzohr, Schelm, Halunke

"schlaeif"> Schleef (Brinckman), Sleif, Sleef: großer Küchenlöffel,
ungelenkter Junge



Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert



Mit best' Gräuten.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 20:49:55 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:49:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.14.SEP.2010.134955.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (02) [EN]



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.13 (02) [EN-NL]



Also interesting....except I don't know what (or where?) "de Grondwet"
actually is!



What the USA would call the constitution (I believe the UK does not have
one...).

Literally "ground-law", so "most basic law", in a way. Probably a loan
translation of Grundgesetz, I suppose?



I was also surprised to find (if I've understood correctly) that there are
semi-officially English-speaking places - Sint Eustatius and Saba; are they
in the Caribbean?



They are, yes. The other half of St. Maarten (a.k.a. Saint-Martin) is a
French "self-governed colony" (collectivité d'outre mer), so I supposed
knowledge of French would be widespread, but according to the Wikipedia
page, most people speak English there as well (being descendents of English
slaves).



Henno



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 20:25:13 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:25:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (04) [EN]



Thanks Henno.

Obvious once you explained it!



Paul



From: Henno Brandsma
<hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>>


Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (02) [EN]



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.13 (02) [EN-NL]



Also interesting....except I don't know what (or where?) "de Grondwet"
actually is!



What the USA would call the constitution (I believe the UK does not have
one...).

Literally "ground-law", so "most basic law", in a way. Probably a loan
translation of Grundgesetz, I suppose?



I was also surprised to find (if I've understood correctly) that there are
semi-officially English-speaking places - Sint Eustatius and Saba; are they
in the Caribbean?



They are, yes. The other half of St. Maarten (a.k.a. Saint-Martin) is a
French "self-governed colony" (collectivité d'outre mer), so I supposed
knowledge of French would be widespread, but according to the Wikipedia
page, most people speak English there as well (being descendents of English
slaves).



Henno



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 20:27:09 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:27:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]
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From: James Ward <jamesward at earthlink.net>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.14 (01) [EN]



Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:

I'm only half joking.  I've always felt that Dutch would be easier for early
learners to grasp than French or German, and although it has far fewer
speakers, I think it would be a "foot in the door" to language learning.  It
would go some way toward breaking down this concrete barrier we seem to have
in the UK when considering other languages.



Apologies to all for going off on a non-Lowlands tangent, but I must just
quietly whisper "Esperanto."  Wistful, wishful thinking, I know, but a very
good candidate for a "foot in the door" language.

James Ward



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 20:28:47 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:28:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.15 (03) [NDS]
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.14 (03) [DE]



Leeve Lowlanders, leeve Hanne un Markus!

Nae, min leeve Hanne, "bloof" foer "bloom" is keen verschrieven, so segg wi
dat woerkli in Rendsborg-Land un ik muech ok gern weten of dat no andere
regionen giff wo dat so segg ward. Awer waroem "bloof" un ni "bloom" schient
ni rech duetli to ween, uennersoech haett dat wul ok no keen. Un een, de
glaai is, is fruendli na buten aawer of he/se dat eerli meent is wat
anners.....

Hm, Markus, of denn "Groessoellern" vun dat hochduetsche "Grosseltern"
kuemmt boen ik mi ni seker, mi duech dat kuemmt eerder vun "groetsoellern"
("de groetsten oellern") un is versleten to "groessoellern", so as ok bi ons
utspraak "aster" foer "achter" wat egentli vun "achster" kuemmt. Anders
schull dat wull "grossoellern" heeten un ni "groessoellern". Lokal is dat ok
so dat wi ut all de kotten "e"s een "i" maak, so as "dinken" foer "denken",
dat is sik wedher lik mit "thinking" in Engelsch (oder no beter "thinkin'"
in Nord Amerika un Northumberland), wi hebb ok "hef" foer "hebb" un "twinni"
foer "twentig", so as Northumbrian (un ok Amerikansch) "twenni", is doch
duetli dat een deel vun dat engelsche eer wuddeln wul in Middelholsten
haett.....

Ik waer jues mit een olen fruend ut Carlisle, Cumbria op radtour in
Sleswig-Holsten un wi heb een ole tante vun mi kott besoecht op'n wigh un
dat waer doch wedher lusti dat min fruend dat gliks verstaan kun as se sae
to em "gif mi man din waater buddel", dat waer sik meist lik mit Cumbrian,
in Cumbrian Engelsch bruken se no juemmers Old-Engelsch "thine" (in de form
"thin") foer 'yours".....un i Braehult (Deutsch: Breiholz, Dansk: Bregholt)
an de Eider kun man no richti fin Plattduetsch schnacken bi'n baecker, as
een mol good Middelholsten-Plattduetsch hoeren woell, denn foor man to
baecker Greve in Braehult!

Leve Groeten,
Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 21:09:34 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:09:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.15.SEP.2010.140934.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]



Too southern and Latiny for me. Middelsprake, which was promoted by Igmar
Roedinger, formerly of this group, is more suitable for us Northern types.



Paul



----------



From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]



In "response" to Paul's suggestion of Dutch and James' counter (wist/hful)
suggestion of Esperanto as "foot-in-the-door ((feet-in the door??)
languages", it all depends which door you are trying to get your feet into.

If "we" are trying to get in touch with our Germanic/Lowlandic roots, then
obviously Dutch (or Flemish ... or maybe Frysk) is a good choice; certainly
felt to be "easier" at all levels than German by most English learners ...
though if "easiness" is our criteria maybe Afrikaans might be a better
candidate (certainly less inflectional morphology than Dutch) ... esp.
considering it has acquired a few more English-like grammatical features
than Dutch. (If we practice our reading with the newspaper "Volkskrant" --
which is what I broke my teeth on--, which my professor and mentor CH van
Schooneveld described as being written in English syntax with Dutch words,
then maybe the task of learning Dutch would be even easier)

On the other hand, as English has a significant Romance component in its
vocabulary (though a less significant grammatical component), Esperanto
(which is clearly not neutral but rather Romance-biased in ITS vocabulary)
might be a logical choice. It certainly has a "simple" grammar (though any
glance at a modern 600-page comprehensive grammar of Esperanto will show
that it no longer has "just 16" grammar rules).

But, on both counts Papiamentu would be a good choice, as it has a
significant Dutch component as well, and as oppsoed to Esperanto at least it
has more native speakers and an actual culture (cuisine included).

IF the English speaker is American, then the door to the biggest (and
closest) prize would have to be Spanish, which (at least until one "hits"
imperfect subjunctives!) is not overwhelming to the English-speaking
learner.

          mwm || U C > || Mike Morgan
===============================
           linguist temporarily at large
soon(?)  @ IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
 ... sometime in THIS incarnation anyway
                     ... inshallah



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 21:53:20 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:53:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (05) [EN]
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (04) [EN]



> From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]
>
> In "response" to Paul's suggestion of Dutch and James' counter
> (wist/hful) suggestion of Esperanto as "foot-in-the-door ((feet-in the
> door??) languages", it all depends which door you are trying to get
> your feet into.


Interesting post, language-wise, comparing Esperanto, Papiamentu &c as
"foot in the door" languages in response to others' suggestions.

The whole idea of a "foot in the door" language seems rather "dead in
the water" to me, however. I think for success in a language you need
interest, motivation, and best of all, if possible, necessity.

If you try to learn a language as an easy stepping-stone to the world of
language-learning, you're choosing your language because it's relatively
easy. But barring special talent, no language is all that easy (at the
very least it takes commitment and consumes much time) and it'll be a
lot easier to learn a language if your motivation is that you _want_ to
or _need_ to, rather than to have an easy life in learning a language
you're not that bothered about really.

"So why are you learning Dutch?"
"Because I want to learn German."

It's nonsense!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 23:59:00 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:59:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (06) [EN]
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.14 (01) [EN]



>From Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk



Paul wrote:



"It would be interesting to know if bilingual British people, notably Welsh
and those from immigrant families, are any better with other languages than
native Anglophones."



When I began teaching languages in Holyhead, where there was a high
percentage of bilingual pupils, I was anticipating a marked advantage in
learning among bilingual pupils.



In fact I never saw one. Those pupils however who did take to languages like
a duck to water, were the RAF children from Valley, who in their short 11
years of life had on average lived in 3 different countries (usually
Germany, Hong Kong and UK). They seem to have fewer hangups and appeared
more aware of the existence of languages as entities ( rather than as a
lesson subject!)



About 6 weeks into a new term and Year intake, a local boy came up to me and
asked if one could do in German everything that one could do in English.
When I said of course you could; it's their language just as English or
Welsh is ours, he persisted: "What? You mean anything I can say in English,
can be said in German too? " "Yes, " I replied." Absolutely everything."
Even then he wasn't convinced " Even jokes too!"



I think one of the worst 'adverts' we have had here in the UK over the last
3 decades was the 'push' that said anyone can learn a foreign language.
Don't get me wrong - I believe that implicitly BUT children (and adults)
often interpret that as also saying - it's easy! Anyone can do it!



So when they find it hard / difficult/ slow, they judge themselves as worse
than useless because they had been told 'anyone can do it' and they can't.
So they give up the struggle.



If you turn the tables and tell pupils after 3 years of learning that
actually they are making good progress and they are at the level you expect
them to be at, they will be so self critical: " No I'm not good. I'm
hopeless. I can't say anything I want yet. I thought I'd be pretty fluent
after a few years!"



Once you have convinced pupils that the 15 days they are given to progress
from no knowledge to an A* GCSE over 5 years is a drop in the ocean of time
needed for language learning, they start to see they own efforts as 'pretty
OK'. (The equation of time is roughly : max 2hrs a week for 12 week term =
24 hours per term contact teaching/learning time. 3 terms a year = 3 days
CT/L time; over 5 years = 15 days. If you allow at least 12 hours off per
day, it still only amounts to the equivalent of 30 days. And as only a tiny
percentage of our pupils live in an environment where they will receive any
out of school backup i.e. hear any German or French or Spanish etc, they
have to rely almost entirely on contact teaching / learning. I think we do
quite well here in the UK actually and would only wish that we were not so
continuously compared with the ability of the rest of the world to speak
English. How well does the average Frenchman speak German? Or the average
German French? Or the Italian Dutch? Or the Swede Spanish?  -rant over!



So I would beg the GOvt and all bodies supporting language learning to
change the message to " Any one can do it but it takes time and effort"



Heather

Worcester UK



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 16 15:13:40 2010
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (04) [EN]



Agreed on all counts.

A French language teacher I knew told me that most of her pupils would
actually have rather learned Spanish - they were far more likely to go to
Alicante, Barcelona or Ibiza. Of course in Ibiza the locals speak Catalan
anyway, but you get the kids' point.



Paul



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (06) [EN]



All very good points, especially about the perceived "special language
ability" of other countries.  That idea even exists in those countries
sometimes: I Finland a girl was being mildly mocking about the fact that she
could speak English but I knew no Finnish ("English people really struggle
with languages don't you?").  I answered her in Afrikaans. The realisation
was like watching a lightbulb go on.



Paul



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 16 21:51:33 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 14:51:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (02) [AF-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.16.SEP.2010.145133.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (01) [EN]



Paul wrote:

I Finland a girl was being mildly mocking about the fact that she could
speak English but I knew no Finnish ("English people really struggle with
languages don't you?").



On the other hand, when I was first in the Netherlands some 25 years ago and
learning Dutch, many Amsterdam acquaintances' response was: "Why bother? We
all speak English..."

Though, of course, they didn't....

That same response is not uncommon in many countries ... and sometimes as a
field linguist who enjoys learning languages as well, it CAN be
frustrating....

...

>From my current, temporary location back in Japan, it seems that the
"ineptitude" at learning languages that seems to charcterize this country
and the country of my birth is by and large nurture not nature; in America
people by and large are not interested in foreign languages (because we are
"taught" "who needs them?! everyone speaks -- or ought to speak! --
American"), while in Japan much more complicated socio-educational issues
seem to be at play (including the thinking that if you CAN learn a foreign
language then you MUST not be really be Japanese -- or maybe suffer from a
brain defect or gene mutation --, because Japanese brains are actually put
together differently than those of foreigners).

As Sandy said in a posting a few days ago, learning a language is NOT all
about how difficult it is, but rather maybe more about interest and
motivation (though in that context the discussion was about choice of
PARTICULAR languages), and it would also seem that there is an important
element as to whether the society (and therfore the person socialized in
that society) "feels" that learning languageS / being bilingual is
"normal"/"to be expected".

Deaf Japanese are always astonished when it is pointed out to them that the
"average educated" European Deaf person (Finnish say, or Belgian) is
competent in at least 4 languages (Finnish Sign Language, International Sign
and/or some other country's sign language, written Finnish, AND written
English. Not because they MUST (nobody I know of forces Finnish Deaf to
travel abroad), but because it is just "the way things are done". NOT
knowing English doesn't keep Japanese (hearing or Deaf) from traveling
overseas; on the other hand, it seems that the "normalcy" of traveling
overseas (or at least over the Baltic Sea) makes learning English natural
fro Scandinavians (and one expects the same "thinking" applies to most north
Europeans -- south Europeans being maybe a bit more like Americans and
Japanese ... and British)


     mwm || U C > || Mike Morgan
===============================
      linguist temporarily at large
soon(?) @ IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
 ... sometime in THIS incarnation anyway
           ... inshallah



----------



From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (01) [EN]



Dear Paul:



Subject: LL-L "Language learning"



You Wrote:

All very good points, especially about the perceived "special language
ability" of other countries. That idea even exists in those countries
sometimes: I Finland a girl was being mildly mocking about the fact that she
could speak English but I knew no Finnish ("English people really struggle
with languages don't you?"). I answered her in Afrikaans. The realisation
was like watching a lightbulb go on.



Seconded. Good for you, & your Afrikaans! So van die os op die esel, het jy
nie al opgemerk nie hoe die Taal lig werp op veral die oudhede van Engels
(onder ander Dietse tale)? My ondervinding as 'n kind was hoe help Afrikaans
met die spel van Engels, waar die uitspraak van die hedendaagse taal geen
luidraad gee, hoegenaamd. Ek veronderstel natuurlik 'n mate van die einste
voordeel van sommer enige verwante taal in parallel met die wat jy klaar
onder die blad het, maar Afrikaans... dra die eienskap tot 'n merkwaardige
mate.



Ek sê nie Afrikaans moet 'n Wêreldwye gemenetaal word nie, en ek wil dit ook
nie hê nie, maar mynsinsiens is dit 'n uitstekende tweede-taal fondament van
'n derde, vierde, en nog meer. Maar, met wederdenke, is nie alle tallleer so
nie?



Nou ja, vir die enkeltaliges in ons geselskap (die skraaaale minderheid)
laat ek in Engels oortolk.



Gesekondeer. Mooi skoot, u en u Afrikaans! Off the ox onto the ass as it
were, have you not noticed how the Taal casts light on particularly the
archaisms of English (among other Anglo-Saxon languages)? My experience as a
child was how Afrikaans helped me with the spelling of English, where the
pronunciation of the language as it is today gives no clue whatever. I
assume naturally a degree of the same advantage with really any related
tongue in parallel with one you already have by heart, but Afrikaans...
carries this quality to a notable degree.



I do not say that Afrikaans should become a Worldwide common language, nor
would I want that, but in my opinion it is an outstanding second-language
foundation for a third, fourth, even more. However on thinking it over isn't
that the case with all language study?



While we're off the subject, when are you denizens of the sceptered
archipelago, that other Eden, that demi-paradise, going to point out to
smarmy foreigners that yours is not a monoglot heritage? Count with me,
English, Scots, Welsh, Gaelic, Erse, Manx (still, I hope), Cornish (I
anticipate), Norman-French (of the Channel Isles), Norn (does it still
exist?), Romany & how much more?



Groete,

Mark.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 17 20:06:19 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:06:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.17 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.17.SEP.2010.130619.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (02) [AF-EN]



Mark points out that societies can be multilingual (and multicultural), and
in fact can be abundantly so while most individuals in that society remain
monolingual.

 Count with me, English, Scots, Welsh, Gaelic, Erse, Manx (still, I hope),
Cornish (I anticipate), Norman-French (of the Channel Isles), Norn (does it
still exist?), Romany & how much more?


Yes, the list COULD go on; to keep to the Finnish theme of this thread, I
will just point out that the US has more Punjabi speakers than Helsinki does
Finnish speakers ;-) ... and the UK's numbers are almost 4 times larger.


          mwm || U C > || Mike Morgan
===============================
           linguist temporarily at large
soon(?)  @ IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
 ... sometime in THIS incarnation anyway
                     ... inshallah



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 18 14:39:54 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:39:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.18 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.18.SEP.2010.073954.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.17 (01) [EN]



> From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

> Mark points out that societies can be multilingual (and multicultural),
and in fact can be abundantly so while most individuals in that society
remain monolingual.

> Count with me, English, Scots, Welsh, Gaelic, Erse, Manx (still, I hope),
Cornish (I anticipate), Norman-French (of the Channel Isles), Norn (does it
still exist?), Romany & how much more?



Yes, but for prevewing the evolution for the next 2 generations:

- Are there many Welsh speakers who do not understand a single word of
English?

- Are there Welsh parents who do everything for keeping their kids
monolinguistically Welsh?



I think in plurilingual environments the dominant language wins over a
couple of generations, unless for some groups, who organize themselves in
closed societies, as e.g. Amish people, orthodox Ashkenazies etc.



If you can prevent immigrants settling in an isolated Gaelic Island, the
local village variant can continu to be the main vehicular language over
there for generations to come. It is often suficient that just one family
starts behaving "English only" for breaking up the protection.



For strong languages the winning group may initially be a minority as e.g.
the French speakers in Brussels, the English speakers in the Cape Town area.



Regards,

Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 16:18:50 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:18:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.23 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.23.SEP.2010.091850.0700.>

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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"



Beste Lowlanners,



even 20 years after the reunion between East and West Germany still is
splitted in two parts as far as English is concerned:

http://www.zeit.de/2010/36/S-Englisch



In special the (Upper) Saxon pupils with their special, exceptional dialect
seem to have great difficulties to learn English, though the standard of
their schools is aspected to be high in the internal German ranking system.



I would like to know if things are running better in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,
our Hanne's homeland and the most northern province of the former German
Democratic Republic (until A.D. 1990 "Eastern Germany", behind the Iron
Curtain). Is the influence of Low Saxon still strong enough to make it
easier for the people over there to learn English, as it in my youth had
been in comparison between the North and South of (Western-)Germany?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 18:33:42 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:33:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.23.SEP.2010.113342.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L  "Etymology" 2010.09.14 (03) [DE]



Leiwe Lowlanders, leiwe Helge,



mien PC un ick wieren krank, von hüt an is wedder Land in Sicht.



Nu heff ick ein Oog in dit Bauk smäten:



Institut für Niederdeutsche Sprache



PLATTDEUTSCH-HOCHDEUTSCHES WÖRTERBUCH



Bearbeitet von Wolfgang Lindow



VERLAG SCHUSTER LEER



*Bloov* (Niederelbe- Raum) s. Bloom



Dat wier't all.

Kannst wat mit anfangen...



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 18:48:49 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:48:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.23 (03) [EN]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language learning



Jonny, you wrote:



even 20 years after the reunion between East and West Germany still is
splitted in two parts as far as English is concerned:

http://www.zeit.de/2010/36/S-Englisch



In special the (Upper) Saxon pupils with their special, exceptional dialect
seem to have great difficulties to learn English, though the standard of
their schools is aspected to be high in the internal German ranking system.



I would like to know if things are running better in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,
our Hanne's homeland and the most northern province of the former German
Democratic Republic (until A.D. 1990 "Eastern Germany", behind the Iron
Curtain). Is the influence of Low Saxon still strong enough to make it
easier for the people over there to learn English, as it in my youth had
been in comparison between the North and South of (Western-)Germany?



If in this regard there is indeed a difference between students inside and
outside the original Low-Saxon-speaking area, you first need to find out if
this has anything to do with exposure to Low Saxon specifically or with
bilingualism more generally.

People that already know a language other than their main one, even if they
are not fluent in but are at least exposed to it, tend to have an easier
time learning further languages, including those that are not closely
related to the languages they already knew.

What would be relevant is finding out if students that grew up with Upper
Sorbian have an easier time learning English than do other students in the
state of Saxony. Similarly, it would be interesting to see if all over
Germany those students have an easier time that grew up with Turkish,
Kurdish, Arabic, Farsi and other immigrant languages.

Then, *if* there is indeed something special about students with Low Saxon
background you can move on to seeing if it has anything to do with that
language in particular. Then you would also need to look at North German
students that grew up with Frisian or Danish.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 21:22:50 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:22:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.23 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.23.SEP.2010.142250.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.23 (03) [EN]



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language learning

If in this regard there is indeed a difference between students inside and
outside the original Low-Saxon-speaking area, you first need to find out if
this has anything to do with exposure to Low Saxon specifically or with
bilingualism more generally.

People that already know a language other than their main one, even if they
are not fluent in but are at least exposed to it, tend to have an easier
time learning further languages, including those that are not closely
related to the languages they already knew.

What would be relevant is finding out if students that grew up with Upper
Sorbian have an easier time learning English than do other students in the
state of Saxony. Similarly, it would be interesting to see if all over
Germany those students have an easier time that grew up with Turkish,
Kurdish, Arabic, Farsi and other immigrant languages.

Then, *if* there is indeed something special about students with Low Saxon
background you can move on to seeing if it has anything to do with that
language in particular. Then you would also need to look at North German
students that grew up with Frisian or Danish.


The problem with these immigrant languages is, that many of their speakers
come from certain socio-economical environments. The adverse effects of this
most likely outweigh the positive effects of bilingualism.

When I say "certain socio-economical environments" I primarily mean 'working
class' as opposed to 'middle class' or 'white collar'. This is due to the
fact that their parents and grandparents came to Germany as guest workers to
do the jobs the Germans didn't want to do anymore. And as with all
immigrants it takes some time (generations) to blend in and improve
socio-economically. I hope nobody misinterprets this in any *-istic way. I
have to add this disclaimer since the German public opinion recently was
stirred up a bit by statements of politician Thilo Sarrazin which were
turned into a campaign by German tabloid 'Bild' (Germany's most-selling
paper read by about 12.5 million people and the single most relevant
agenda-setter for Germany's public opinion).

Sarrazin wrote a book about how the Germans will go extinct if they don't do
anything about it ("Deutschland schafft sich ab"). He had nice populistic
theses like "I do not want to excuse myself for being German", "German must
be spoken on German schoolyards", "too much young resident aliens are
criminal", "lock away child molesters forever" etc., and in interviews he
offered nice wisdoms with enormous scientific depth like "all Jews share a
gene". 'Bild' advertised his book and praised him for "expressing the
uncomfortable truth" and "being the otherwise unheard voice of the ordinary
Joes on the street". Sarrazin lost his job as a representative of the
Bundesbank, because Bundesbank was worried about their reputation and 'Bild'
tried to spin this suggesting that Sarrazins freedom of opinion was
suppressed (although he wrote a best-selling book and had more media
attention than any other topic over several weeks. [but 'Bild' doesn't care
much about such little selfcontradictions. They don't even see the irony
when they put the headline "Pornography corrupts our children!" in 6cm
letters on the title, when 'Bild' itself has the habit to put what England
calls the "page 3 girl" on the title page. Nota bene: no bras, no bikini
tops.]).

After weeks of debate nothing has changed politically in German. But the
massive media campaign has changed public opinion. The inhibition threshold
for xenophobic comments was lowered. You can now publicly make statements
that were not possible before, which would have lead to a public outcry.

One more remark: The 'Bild' basically _is_ right that the public opinion
shaped mainly by politics and media does not reflect the opinion of many of
the average people. But in this case that's a good thing because the average
people's opinion is based on ignorance and wrong facts (and many of these
wrong facts were spread by the 'Bild').

@Ron: I guess I diverted from the original topic ;-) Feel free to change the
topic for this.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 21:24:52 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:24:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (05) [NDS]
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (02) [NDS]



From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L  "Etymology" 2010.09.14 (03) [DE]


Leiwe Lowlanders, leiwe Helge,

mien PC un ick wieren krank, von hüt an is wedder Land in Sicht.

Nu heff ick ein Oog in dit Bauk smäten:

Institut für Niederdeutsche Sprache

PLATTDEUTSCH-HOCHDEUTSCHES WÖRTERBUCH

Bearbeitet von Wolfgang Lindow

VERLAG SCHUSTER LEER

*Bloov* (Niederelbe- Raum) s. Bloom

Dat wier't all.

Kannst wat mit anfangen...



Ik heff ok noch wat funnen: <
http://books.google.de/books?id=FdAdAQAAIAAJ&q=%2Bbloof+blume&dq=%2Bbloof+blume&hl=de&ei=h6mbTPvsJOmL4gbUupBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA
>

Dat schall en Variant von "Bloom" wesen un dor warrt ok noch en poor
Bispelen mehr nöömt, bi de "m" to "f" worrn is.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 24 19:13:57 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:13:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.24.SEP.2010.121357.0700.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"



Beste Marcus,



You wrote:

Sarrazin wrote a book about how the Germans will go extinct if they don't do
anything about it ("Deutschland schafft sich ab"). He had nice populistic
theses like "I do not want to excuse myself for being German", "German must
be spoken on German schoolyards", "too much young resident aliens are
criminal", "lock away child molesters forever" etc., and in interviews he
offered nice wisdoms with enormous scientific depth like "all Jews share a
gene"



Sarrazin's family name doesn't make himself sound über-German: < Saracens.
Always happens with the "last who got in"...they seem to have these "Après
moi, le déluge" feelings more than any other.



Boundary value problem for human geographers.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 24 19:16:05 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:16:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.24.SEP.2010.121605.0700.>

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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (05) [NDS]



Beste Hanne, Helge, Marcus,



tou



*Bloov = Bloom:*



Daorbii mutt ick ouk an dat Ingelsche *"to blow"* = 'blühen' denken.



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 24 22:44:22 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:44:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.24.SEP.2010.154422.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (05) [NDS]



Veelen Dank, Markus, dat huelp een beten, sodenni is "bloof' wat neetmodsch,
dat kan wul ween! Spraak blief sik nuems lik, dat veraennert sik, as alens
annere ok.

Un wenn ik sowat lees vun Herrn Sarrazin oder Herrn Wilders, wenn de sik
beklaagt oever de paar kinner de op'n schoolhof ni duetsch snack, wat schall
dat? Un wat passeert as de kinner plattduetsch oder friisk op'n schoolhof
snack? Dat doerf denn ja ok ni, blot hochduetsch un nix anners. Un wat
schoellt wi seggen daaroever dat ons plattduetsch un friisk meist garni meer
hoert ward in ons eegen region? Un wat schoellt de amerikanischen Indianers
seggen daaroever woneem sik de Europaeer bi eer breed mok hebb oone dat se
ok blot een wort amerikansch Indiansch leert heb? Wi Europaeer heb doch vun
all dat schlechste bispeel foer immigration un integration geven, wi moet
heelsch lisen ween wenn wi oever anpassen, immigration un integration
snacken. Wi heb de Aboriginies as dieren behannelt, wi heb de Afrikaners
versklaaft un na Amerika send un daar heb wi all mitmaak, of nu
Sleswig-Holstener, Engelschen, Nederlander, Daen, Spanier,.... wi moet uns
wat schaemen, wi heb no wat good to maken, ni de immigranten de na Europa
kuemmt. Awer dat woellt de herrn Sarrazin, Wilders, Dewinter, Fru
Kjaersgaard, Le Pen un waa se all heten ni waar hebben.

Leeve Groeten, Helge



----------



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (02) [NDS]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (05) [NDS]

*
*

*Bloov = Bloom:*

Daorbii mutt ick ouk an dat Ingelsche *"to blow"* = 'blühen' denken.


EN "to blow"/NL "bloeien"/DE "blühen"/NDS "blöhn" sünd von de Etymologie her
datsülve Woord. Geiht trügg op "blôwan"/"blôjan". De eerste Sülv "blô" kummt
ok in NDS "Bloom"/NL "bloem", DE "Blume", EN "bloom" vör ("blô" + "ma"
[substantivisch Suffix]). De eerste Sülv in "Bloof" kummt dor ok von. De
Fraag is man blot: is dat Woord oold un mit en anner substantivisch Suffix
billt oder is dat Woord jung un blot ut "Bloom" ümmuddelt? Villicht över den
Plural? Dat Woord "baven" warrt faken "bobm" oder "bôm" utspraken un
"hebben" faken "hebm" oder "hemm". Ok de Plural von "Bloom" warrt faken ahn
"n" un mit "m" utspraken: "Blom'm". Villicht hebbt se dat as "Bloven"
reanalyseert, wat jüst so utspraken warrt? Von de Theorie her mööglich,
höört aver veel Gewalt to, dat Woord so dull to verbögen... Wat is denn de
Plural von "Bloov"???

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 24 23:06:49 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:06:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.24 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.24.SEP.2010.160649.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 24 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (01) [EN]



From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"

You wrote:

Sarrazin wrote a book about how the Germans will go extinct if they don't do
anything about it ("Deutschland schafft sich ab"). He had nice populistic
theses like "I do not want to excuse myself for being German", "German must
be spoken on German schoolyards", "too much young resident aliens are
criminal", "lock away child molesters forever" etc., and in interviews he
offered nice wisdoms with enormous scientific depth like "all Jews share a
gene"


Sarrazin's family name doesn't make himself sound über-German: < Saracens.
Always happens with the "last who got in"...they seem to have these "Après
moi, le déluge" feelings more than any other.


Boundary value problem for human geographers.


Sarrazin has Huguenot roots. That means his family is in Germany for more
than 300 years. And if you would confront him with his foreign roots he'd
take it as acknowledgement of his arguments ;-) He's not an outright racist.
He's more focused on culture like "assimilate or stay away from Germany".
(Although he sometimes resorts to arguments that are hard to interpret in a
non-racist way.) So he'd take his own French (and possible Saracen) roots as
a positive story of assimilation (the euphemism "integration" is used when
"assimilation" is meant in Germany's public discussion).

Interestingly enough Sarrazin is a member of SPD, the Social Democratic
Party, not CDU, the Christian Democratic Union and more conservative party,
or any of the right-wing parties.

The discussions around Sarrazin are also interesting in another respect: the
total ignorance of the German public for their autochthonous minorities. You
would think that in a nation-wide discussion about language, culture and
integration the perspective of the native minorities like Sorbians,
Frisians, Romany, Low Saxons, and the Danish would be relevant and part of
the discussion. But it doesn't happen. Nobody mentioned them anywhere.
Sarrazin did not, the 'Bild' did not, none of the more respectable
newspapers did it, none of the big TV stations, none of the politicians that
commented the situation. Nobody did. Most worryingly not even the
representatives of the minorities themselves tried to give their
perspective. It seems everybody accepts their gradual vanishing and not even
the organized language activists develop enough energy to even say "Hey
there, we do exist!" when somebody proclaims that Germany should be
German-only. It's sad and it's the certain path to extinction. I should
write a book about it! It certainly will sell 650,000 copies ;-) "De
Plattdüütschen schafft sik sülms af".

Marcus Buck


----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:Language politics

Marcus, might fear of seeming disloyal play a role in the silence,
especially in the Low Saxon community which has pretty much lost its
separate ethnic identity?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: OK, everyone. Let me remind you to keep topics apart.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 25 14:30:11 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 07:30:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.25 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.25.SEP.2010.073011.0700.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics"



Beste Marcus,



On 25/09/10, at 01:06, Lowlands-L List wrote:



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (01) [EN]



From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"

You wrote:

Sarrazin wrote a book about how the Germans will go extinct if they don't do
anything about it ("Deutschland schafft sich ab"). He had nice populistic
theses like "I do not want to excuse myself for being German", "German must
be spoken on German schoolyards", "too much young resident aliens are
criminal", "lock away child molesters forever" etc., and in interviews he
offered nice wisdoms with enormous scientific depth like "all Jews share a
gene"


Sarrazin's family name doesn't make himself sound über-German: < Saracens.
Always happens with the "last who got in"...they seem to have these "Après
moi, le déluge" feelings more than any other.


Boundary value problem for human geographers.


Sarrazin has Huguenot roots. That means his family is in Germany for more
than 300 years. And if you would confront him with his foreign roots he'd
take it as acknowledgement of his arguments ;-)



Not valid.



a) Huguenots often occupied important positions in French society before
their exodus.

b) They fled to places that were either also Reformed or where religion was
not an issue.



Under these conditions of course, Huguenots were pretty welcome back in
those days (in Germany/Prussia).



I don't know precisely what Mr. Sarrazin's opinion is about present-day
migrants (or minority people) in Germany, but I'm quite sure you cannot
compare the situation because,



a) said population is often not rich and powerful

b) they frequently have a non-Christian religious background

 He's not an outright racist.



Of course not, times have changed. Even obstinate guys have learned a thing
or two from the past. The message has been revamped.

 He's more focused on culture like "assimilate or stay away from Germany".
(Although he sometimes resorts to arguments that are hard to interpret in a
non-racist way.) So he'd take his own French (and possible Saracen) roots as
a positive story of assimilation (the euphemism "integration" is used when
"assimilation" is meant in Germany's public discussion).



See above. Plus, using personal arguments as overall justification for
national measures is hardly professional.



Besides, regarding "assimilation", official language in Dutch Reformed
"Waalse Kerken" is still French.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 26 19:59:40 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 12:59:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.26 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.125940.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Dear Lowlanders,

In today’s *Newsweek* there is an interesting article by Joel Kotkin about
“the new world order” in which traditional alliances play more important
roles than do political borders.

Among these alliances he mentions this:



New Hansa

Denmark, Finland, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden

 In the 13th century, an alliance of Northern European towns called the
Hanseatic League created what historian Fernand Braudel called a “common
civilization created by trading.” Today’s expanded list of Hansa states
share Germanic cultural roots, and they have found their niche by selling
high-value goods to developed nations, as well as to burgeoning markets in
Russia, China, and India. Widely admired for their generous welfare systems,
most of these countries have liberalized their economies in recent years.
They account for six of the top eight countries on the Legatum Prosperity
Index and boast some of the world’s highest savings rates (25 percent or
more), as well as impressive levels of employment, education, and
technological innovation.

[http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/26/the-new-world-order-a-map.html]


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------



From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>

Subject: History



I thought you might like this entry from this dictionary:
"Holsteinisches Idiotikon
von Johann Friedrich Schütze
Königl. Dän. Kanzlei-Sekretraire
Altona 1806"

Entry "Setten":

"Setten (Dän. saette): setzen
Sade: Stille Ruhe. Richey macht es gegen Gramm der dies Wort vom Angs.
Sida Dän. Säder Sitten ableiten will,
wahrscheinlicher, daß es von Sate:Sitz abstamme.
B.W.B. Daher Saten, Undersaten: Sassen Eingesessene, Unterthanen,
der ursprüngliche Name unsrer Vorahnen, die an der Elbseite ihren Sitz
hatten,
die sich nach demselben Angelsaten, Holsaten, Wurtsaten unterschieden.
Das Wort Sachsen ist bloß durch Oberländer aus jenem Worte gebildet.
(Wolke Eingedichte Lpz. 1804. S.10)"

Till today I never came across the idea to base "Sassen" on the word
"to sit". Any comments?

By the way;
Who was Richey and who was Gramm and what does the abbreviation "B.W.B."
mean?

The "Idiotikon" was published 204 years ago. History is fun. Times
change and opinions about history changes.

Which reminds me of this story:
When I was in New Zealand (I arrived there on 9/11/2001), I bought a
book that was published in 1914:
the last volume of "Harvard Classics" with the title "lectures". It
contains several introductions into different fields of study as the
whole of "Harvard Classics" was supposed to enable anyone who cared
about education to do that at home in his sparetime.

What caught my attention was the introduction into history, which is
digitized in http://www.bartleby.com/60/101.html
Starting in Greece he works forward over Rome Renaissance etc. till he
comes to the last two pages of his 50 page essay, stating

" In 1859 France helped the House of Savoy to drive Austria from the
valley of the Po, and thereby cleared the way for the liberation and
fusion of all Italy by Cavour and Garibaldi. In 1866 Prussia expelled
the House of Hapsburg from Germany, and four years later consolidated
her work by marching to the walls of Paris at the head of a united
German host which there acclaimed William of Hohenzollern chief of a
new Germanic empire.

What has happened since then, and chiefly the scramble for colonies or
for establishing economic suzerainty, belongs more to the field of
present politics than of history. For that reason it may be left out
of account. And so indeed has much else been left out of account for
which the limit of space fixed for this essay has proved altogether
too narrow. If a last word may be added to help the reader to gather
in the harvest from that trampled and mutilated field which we call
history let it be this, that everything turns on a point of view, on a
mental attitude. The reader is the spectator of the pageant; he must
be cool to judge and discriminate, with no bias toward praise or
blame, content merely to observe as the constant stream unfolds itself
in all its changing colors, but with a mind ready to judge human
actions and motives, an imagination ready to seize on the ever-living
drama of fact, and a heart ready to respond to those countless acts of
heroism that have ennobled great men and great races, and with them
all humanity."

So in 1914 this history teacher declined to comment anything later
than 1870, to him all that was not yet history.

Heiko Evermann
Hamburg



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 26 20:04:52 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 13:04:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.130452.0700.>

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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: De Wachter is Dood.

De wachter is dood.

De huusstèe,

onbewaakt.

Rouw,

druppeld deur de veinsters

en leg zich dale,

veur de heerd.

Daor,

waor hij de leste tied,

zo gèern lag.



Wij hebben Waldo vanmiddag om 17.00 uur in laten slapen

Waldo is een Berner Senner en hij is elf jaor old ewörden.



Arend en Jettie.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 26 20:50:12 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 13:50:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.26 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.135012.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 26 September 2010 - Volume 03
*lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.26 (01) [DE-EN]


From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>

Subject: History



I thought you might like this entry from this dictionary:
"Holsteinisches Idiotikon
von Johann Friedrich Schütze
Königl. Dän. Kanzlei-Sekretraire
Altona 1806"

Entry "Setten":

"Setten (Dän. saette): setzen
Sade: Stille Ruhe. Richey macht es gegen Gramm der dies Wort vom Angs.
Sida Dän. Säder Sitten ableiten will,
wahrscheinlicher, daß es von Sate:Sitz abstamme.
B.W.B. Daher Saten, Undersaten: Sassen Eingesessene, Unterthanen,
der ursprüngliche Name unsrer Vorahnen, die an der Elbseite ihren Sitz
hatten,
die sich nach demselben Angelsaten, Holsaten, Wurtsaten unterschieden.
Das Wort Sachsen ist bloß durch Oberländer aus jenem Worte gebildet.
(Wolke Eingedichte Lpz. 1804. S.10)"

Till today I never came across the idea to base "Sassen" on the word
"to sit". Any comments?

By the way;
Who was Richey and who was Gramm and what does the abbreviation "B.W.B."
mean?



Richey is the author of the 1755 "Idioticon Hamburgense". Gramm is the
Danish philologist and historian Hans Gram. BWB most likely means "(Versuch
eines) Bremisch-Niedersächsischen Wörterbuchs" from 1767.

The etymology of "Sachsen" being derived from "Saten" is wrong. Schütze is
correct that "Holstein" and "Wursten" are derived from "Holtsaten" and
"Wurtsaten", but "Angelsaten" is a wrong analogy. The Saxons have their name
from the "sahs", a type of knife. That makes perfect sense from an
etymological point of view. Compare for "fohs" which developed into "fox" in
English, "Foss" in Low Saxon and "Fuchs" in German. The same with "sahson".
"Saxon" in English, "Sassen" in Low Saxon and "Sachsen" in German. It is
plain impossible that "Sachsen/Sassen/Saxon" is derived from "Saten". If
"Saten" was the etymological source we would have to assume that the Saxons
loaned their own name from High German and then High German again loaned the
name from the Saxons and applied the second Germanic sound shift a second
time. And all this must have happened 700 years before the time the second
Germanic sound shift according to scientific believe happened, because the
Romans already used the term "Saxon".

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 27 00:39:41 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:39:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.173941.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 26 September 2010 - Volume 03
*lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (02) [NDS]

Beste Arend,



eyn Deert is eyn Deert; eyn Waldo blivvt eyn Waldo! Dat sülbige hebb ick all
söben Maol mit maokt. R.I.P., Waldo, but - don't try to become a real
human.... Men and dogs always should be looked upon apart; surely they both
have got souls, but I'm sure of slightly different types!



Wokeyn sick een Berner-Senner tou Huusdeyrt maokt, mutt ouk weyten, watt
sou'n "Hondje" ne' lang leevt. *Miin* Koyters waard meerstendeyls 14 Jaohrn
ould, mennigmaol 17 - net sou groud as 'n Bernersenn.



Allerbest; 't Is man 'n Deert!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz HanneHinz at t-online.de

Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (02) [NDS]



Lieber Arend,



ich fühle mit deinen Lieben. Es ist ein schwerer Verlust. Eine Freundschaft
zwischen Mensch und Tier ist eine wunderbare Beziehung

und zugleich die engste Bindung, die mit Treue und Liebe vom Hund bereichert
wird. Insbesondere der Berner Senner zählt zu den

zuverlässigen Hunden. Nun endete m.E. sein Leben viel zu früh. Du hast dem
Tier eine schöne Zeit geschenkt und immer ein dankbares Wesen

um euch gehabt. Ihr werdet ihn immer vermissen und besonders auch die
Enkelkinder. Nun braucht ihr Zeit der Besinnung.

Wer nie ein Tier besaß, kann diesen Verlust vielleicht nicht so tief
nachfühlen.



Der Hund ist der einzige Freund, den man sich für Geld kaufen kann. *Kurt
Tucholsky*



Herzlich.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 27 01:26:39 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:26:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (04) [NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.182639.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 26 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (02) [NDS]

To Arend en Jettie. Re: De Wachter is Dood.



Mijn hart gaat naar jullie uit. Hoe leeg het huis, je leven, nu moet zijn.
En Arend, bedankt voor het feit dat je je gevoelens in dat gedicht hebt
kunnen uitbeelden.

Houd elkander vast. Jacqueline



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 07:03:54 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 00:03:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2010.09.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.000354.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 01*
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in September of 2010!



First of all, welcome to the person who joined us since the beginning of the
August! He lives in the following place:


*United States of America*:
      Arkansas:
            Little Rock [1]



Before I get to regular list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:



*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*List Mail v Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List. For
administrative purposes, it's best if you use lowlands.list at gmail.com.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ([ ]). This indicates which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities:



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L. (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.*

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are visible only to
subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward and
participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your view
mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do something
in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides, we
will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not getting and doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up your
own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is not
an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name, even
if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please!

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


*Edit quotes:* If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published version.
It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are relevant to
your response.


*Give credit:* Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If
you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as
the author. That simply will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.



*Sign off:* If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address and your name.



*Temporary Absence*

   - Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
   arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
   lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be
   stopped and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can
   attest, this has been working really well. It certainly beats the old, crude
   method of signing off and on again.
   - Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice.
   Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out"
   for some infraction or other. (I know this for sure only about those that
   contact me. But it happens again and again and involves even the nicest,
   best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have
   received prior reprimands and warnings (which happen very rarely, have not
   happened at all for well over two years). If you find yourself disconnected
   from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has
   unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because your
   mail servers keep informing the list server that you cannot be reached or is
   filled above quota. Most of the time this is due to temporary disconnection.
   - Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
   filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
   mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes.
   - So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam"
   filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem
   if all of the above fails.
   - Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an
   application. I'll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.


Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
sassisch at yahoo.com



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 16:38:16 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:38:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.093816.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 02*
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Culture"



Dear Lowlanders,



last Sunday we watched on the German TV-channel "ZDF" an interesting
archeological show ("Terra X") about a grave from the Stone Age:

http://tinyurl.com/35vlz26 (as video, still available in Germany);



further informations:



http://www.zeit.de/2008/30/Familie  (German)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27770938/ (English)



The people which are buried in the mentioned graves were members of the
'Corded Ware culture' (2,800-2,200 BC).

During the show the moderators also came up to those people whom we know as
'Bell Beaker culture' (2,400-1,800 BC), probably the followers of
the 'Corded Ware culture'. The members of these 'Bell Beakers' spread about
the greater part of Central (Western) Europe, starting from the
West (nowadays Portugal); they also took part in the construction of
Stonehenge (probably they've built the last version of it).



The interviewed archeologists postulated a theory that these
higher civilized people may have been in contact with the inhabitants of
Northern Africa, maybe they even were descendants of the old Egypts. This
caused a discussion in our family: if they knew the Egyptian hieroglyphs
(since ca. 3,200 BC) why didn't they bring them with them? Or developed
anything similar?

I think that each culture which ever has experienced the power of written
letters should have been eager to learn and create the same for its own
purposes.

But we have no relics in Europe which could point to any writing until the
Romans conquered (and later christianized) this region. The Germanic Runic
alphabet is dated younger, already influenced by Latin types and never had
been an important medium for 'daily' communication. I've never heard about a
Celtic writing system as well.



What could be the reasons for this belated evolution? Perhaps because there
was no necessity of any writing for a simply, small structured,
familiar society of hunters, herders and farmers, with no greater
settlements like there probably existed in Egypt, surely in Greece and
Italy. Without anything close to that what later was called "trading" and
"money"?!

Similar (still?) the situation worldwide among many indigenous peoples: they
obviously don't need any high developed writing system as long as they're
living in small groups and tribes and in harmony, in accordance with
the natural system around. (Of course they are able to produce and read
special 'signs', e.g. via smoke, drums or just broken and crossed twigs [in
Germany the last type, called "Bruch-zeichen", still has to be learned by
all people who want to become a licenced hunter].)



In my youth the farmers in our region (and elsewhere) didn't like that those
sons who should become their followers visited a college - it could spoil
their natural feeling for agricultural matters.



Exaggeratedly expressed: written letters are the very beginning of the evil
;-)!?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 17:55:23 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:55:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.105523.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 03*
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Culture"



Beste Jonny,

> Exaggeratedly expressed: written letters are the very beginning of the
evil ;-)!?

Evil or not, I dare not say, but surely not the beginning.

Written characters do sort of make oral sources look less trustworthy, less
objective if you will. Then again, I think the introduction of structured
vocal speech was even a much bigger revolution back in the days. And before
that, learning how to walk upright (like most humans do ;=)) was probably
not too obvious for most apes either. Just imagine how it would change your
personal life if you'd have to crawl on all fours again...not too mention
how it would change modern society...rush-hour trains would be even more
packed...and the driver would have difficulty to see where he's driving ;=)
Besides...hold your breath...remember that day when we jumped out of the
water and started to live on land? I was suffocating man! Now th?t was the
start of all evil...btw, I can't swim ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 18:07:29 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:07:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.1.SEP.2010.110729.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 04*
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (02) [EN]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

The interviewed archeologists postulated a theory that these higher
civilized people may have been in contact with the inhabitants of Northern
Africa, maybe they even were descendants of the old Egypts. This caused a
discussion in our family: if they knew the Egyptian hieroglyphs (since ca.
3,200 BC) why didn't they bring them with them? Or developed anything
similar?


The "descendants of the old Egypts" part is speculation. Archeologists know
very little about the Bell-Beaker culture. They do not even agree whether
this culture is actually a culture. Perhaps it's just the beakers that
spread, a fashion in pottery-making. There are signs that the origin lies in
the Iberian peninsula but that's not a settled fact. Any connection to
Africa or even Egypt is just hypothetical.

But there are examples elsewhere in history where cultures did not adopt
script even though they were in close proximity to cultures that had script.
What's the reason? Well, first we should ask: What's the reason to write
down language? Novels, long-distance communication, parking tickets etc. pp.
are all relatively recent inventions. The most ancient uses for written
language are religious and magical purposes (e.g. the Germanic people used
their runes on weapons in the hope to magically enhance them). Another
important early use of written language is administration. If the king has
many subjects who have to provide food to the court you have to keep records
for your granaries. So, if your religion does not know magical spells and
your culture does not know kings or granaries or any other type of
institution that requires administration, there's no reason to write. Trade
seems like something where records are useful, but if you are a single
tradesman or a small group of traders, the single traders can keep all the
relevant information in their head. Making records could give away your
secrets. Records only become meaningful if you establish a trading house. If
you send out people on behalf that's the point where you need to keep
records.

One of the main apects of civilization is division of labour. In a society
with low division of labour (and the Bell-Beaker people certainly had a low
division of labour) people are either their own bosses or they at least know
their bosses. In a society with higher division of labour, there's more
hierarchy and more and more people don't know their bosses. There are
supervisors inbetween and only the supervisor has direct contact to the
boss. I'd say that's the point where records become necessary. When the
social complexness of society becomes so high that you cannot manage it
without noting down some things.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  1 23:15:40 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:15:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (05) [AF-EN]
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=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 01 September 2010 - Volume 05*
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (03) [EN]



Beste Luc en Jonny:



Onderwerp: LL-L "Humour"



You reminisce... Besides...hold your breath...remember that day when we
jumped out of the water and started to live on land? I was suffocating man!
Now th?t was the start of all evil...btw, I can't swim ;=)



'n Hollander vriend het die eens met ons meegedeel: "Ek het 'n verdrag met
die See. Ek gaan nie See toe nie en die Haai kom nie kroeg toe nie."

Groete,



Mark



----------



From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (04) [EN]



Beste Luc, Marcus & Jonny:



Subject: LL-L "Culture"



About the Beaker People & Writing::

The interviewed archeologists postulated a theory that these higher
civilized people may have been in contact with the inhabitants of Northern
Africa, maybe they even were descendants of the old Egyptians.



Some points; Egypt is quite far as a non-maritime people of Western Europe
would see it, & Morocco quite close. Moreover, unlike the case today, the
thin coastal edge of a howling desert, but a pleasant & bounteous savanna -
wall-to-wall Kruger Park - look at the rock-paintings of Tassili n Ajjir
(Land of Four [Rivers])& elsewhere. The Beaker Folk didn't need to go to
Egypt for cultural interaction. The Irish hold that Numidians were among
their ancestors



Now the Egyptians had papyrus. Without that, heiroglyphics is a non-starter.
The nearest their nearer neighbours the Sumerians came to a picture script
was cuniform on moulded clay. Have you considered how uncommon clay is in
non-alluvial country? You prospect for it, & when you find it you make pots
with it - you don't scribble on it & dump it for the archaeologists to find
(The boffins agree that most cuniform found is ephemera, pressed into
un-fired, sun-dried clay lumps, & dumped).



The carrying medium for a script must commonly be material commonly
available. In the forests of Northern Europe the locals used rune-staves, on
split lengths of stick (many samples have been found. One, in Ireland, is a
length of hartshorn with the Viking runes cut in it - 'HARTSHORN'), & the
script used was most suitable for cutting & carving, but there is a problem.
Scribbled notes past their sell-by date make good kindling, & if they aren't
burnt, over the ages they will rot into the earth. The same applies to the
long-bow, an instrument of telling Historical Moment: If they had not been
written about how would we know about them? Less than a handful survive to
date, & most of those were raised with the Mary Rose.I wonder how much of
our paper-based book-bound literature will survive the next Dark Age?



In the North we know of two carved scripts, one is the Teutonic Eights & the
other is the Gaelic Ogham. We cannot draw definitive conclusions about a
written culture in either based on the records carved in stone, a rare
medium, except that there was a script. Now the Germans & the Gaels had
bronze & steel, it was an option, for monumental purposes, to carve stone.
What did the Beaker People have - flint. Stone to carve stone?



The most insular Berbers of all (heh, heh) are the so-called Tuareg. Their
script, Tifinargh, can be drawn in the sand or scrawled on a stone face with
a piece of charcoal. Ephemera usually is, but the wind & passage of time
will blow it away. We cannot read it, yet, but their ancestors the
Garamantians used Tifinargh before the Phoenecians came.



Gentle readers, most scripts & most writing has been mostly used for
ephemera, thank the Lord. Just think, if all the drek of ages were to last
for ever! If a representative cross-sectione of the data backed up in
Cloudland were downloaded to stand testimony for us of the merit of our
survival as a race, woe, woe!



I think that those who try to relate the megalithic builders to the
Egyptians are gobsmacked by any ancient building at all, & lump the lot
together for simple - yes, simple - wonder at the magnitude of their works.
On the evidence of surviving structures their techniques & cultures had
nothing whatever in common. In my opinion, it doesn't become an academic's
professional dignity, least of all that of an archaeologist, to take that
option.



Apart from all the above, I agree with Marcus, the written record is a
manifestation of a Third-Level Culture: Urbanisition, specialisation of
crafts & an established heirarchy. Under such conditions one needs to pass
records between three parties or more & store them in the short term.



yrs,



Mark



----------



From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (02) [EN]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Culture"



[...]

I think that each culture which ever has experienced the power of written
letters should have been eager to learn and create the same for its own
purposes.

But we have no relics in Europe which could point to any writing until the
Romans conquered (and later christianized) this region. The Germanic Runic
alphabet is dated younger, already influenced by Latin types and never had
been an important medium for 'daily' communication. I've never heard about a
Celtic writing system as well.



What could be the reasons for this belated evolution? Perhaps because there
was no necessity of any writing for a simply, small structured, familiar
society of hunters, herders and farmers, with no greater settlements like
there probably existed in Egypt, surely in Greece and Italy. Without
anything close to that what later was called "trading" and "money"?!

[...]



Hello,

Eeeeeh... when you write on sticks, there is not much change for the
writings to be preserved.
But, besides, we can point to the ten thousands of runic messages of all
kind [also of scabrous nature] found on the bottom of the harbour of Bergen
in Norway: the soil was 'sour'.

And I may point to the fact that up until the 1950's there were still
Swedish farmers who used the runic system for their written communication
between each other.

It is my firm belief that the Old-Germanics [like other Indo-Europeans] did
not want to use a writing system, as written texts could lead to all kinds
of forgery.

But: Speak up in the meeting of the elders, and everybody can hear it, and
hear whether you are trying to change the texts.

And indeed, we have overdoses of old acts, proceedings and ordinances that
are forgeries, just intended to defraud.

So are the words of Theo who never forges or lies.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (02) [EN]



> From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
>
> Subject:LL-L "Culture"

> Exaggeratedly expressed: written letters are the very beginning of the
> evil ;-)!?

I think that in these days of widespread literacy achieved by early
teaching it's hard for us to realise just how difficult reading and
writing really is.

Groups tend to start writing in some sort of picture form or ideographs,
which suggests to me that the fact that a word splits into a stream
consisting of a small set of different sounds isn't as obvious as it
seems to we who are so used to the idea.

A system of ideographs, if widely accepted, does eventually start to
develop some phonetic features, perhaps initially through rebus writing,
but the ideographic side of the writing doesn't seem to disappear
because of that.

One idea is that the alphabet arose (as a betagam) when the Pheonicians
started using Egyptian writing: since they spoke a Semitic language they
felt no need to write vowels so it was simpler for them to develop the
sort of writing system we have today. Then classical Greek and Latin
being rather short of vowels, it wasn't too hard for them to take a
passing betagam and augment it into an alphabet by adding a few extra
letters for the vowels.

This sort of theory suggests that an alphabet is a difficult concept
that will only develop under auspicious circumstances, which would mean
that most other alphabets were developed from the original, or at least
from the idea of it.

I think this is quite a believable idea, that an alphabet develops first
in phonetically simpler (or simplifiable) languages, and later in
languages which need more letters. Look at the way it was widely
believed that Slavonic languages couldn't be written, until Saint Cyril
finally took the sledgehammer approach and borrowed letters from both
Greek and Latin alphabets and made up a few of his own until he had
enough.

It seems to me that hieroglyphic systems generally only survive with a
strong government and civil service (or priesthood, perhaps) to support
it, and an empire that continues unbroken (China, Egypt, Maya).

In earlier centuries (eg the Middle Ages), reading was much less common
and reading silently almost unheard of, which goes to show how much we
take for granted these days. On the other hand, there are many claims of
of people these days who can read just by flipping quickly through the
pages of a book, so we may not be at the end of the process yet!

In Victorian times, reading was very much a social event, with one
person in the family reading to the rest, but perhaps that was only due
to lack of other entertainments. I remember when I was a child older
adults used to often read out loud, but not the younger. Is this still
true? Being deaf now, I can't tell!

I also remember that older adults liked to be read to rather than read,
even when they could read, although this may just have been an
unwillingness to look for their reading glasses!

There was also a certain unwillingness, as you mention, for people to
approve of reading. I was often criticised by grandparents and old
uncles and aunts for "always having my nose in a book". Also for
climbing trees, running, shouting, laughing, getting lost for hours on
end, watching TV and generally not being Presbyterian enough.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  2 14:00:17 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 07:00:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.02 (01) [DE-EN]
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (05) [AF-EN]



Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote

> Just think, if all the drek of ages were to last for ever!

It does now, ALL of it, thanks to the internet!


and Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> it was widely believed that Slavonic languages couldn't be written,
> until Saint Cyril finally took the sledgehammer approach and borrowed
> letters from both Greek and Latin alphabets and made up a few of his
> own until he had enough.


He (or his student(s), if we are talking about the Cyrillic and not the
Glagolitic alpahbet)  also apparently borrowed from some combination of:
Hebrew, Coptic, Samaritan, and/or Armenian. A VERY well-read man by all
accounts! ... which,in those days and times and in that part of the world
was a VERY rare thing.

(anyone interested in the details -- and conjectures -- can go to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Cyrillic_alphabet

cheers!

          mwm || U C > || Mike Morgan

===============================
           linguist temporarily at large
soon(?)  @ IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
 ... sometime in THIS incarnation anyway
                     ... inshallah



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2010.09.01 (05) [AF-EN]



Hallo liebe Lowlanders,



es ist nur ein kleiner Beitrag von mir ...



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glockenbecherkultur



http://de.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dewiki/528689



Beste Gr??e.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  2 22:53:47 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 15:53:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (02) [EN]
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>

Subject: [LLL] Culture? (I think?)



Hey all,



I'm on a list about the Norwegian language
mailto:norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com<norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com>.
Every now and then I hear dates demarcated in week numbers that, how liberal
of them, start on a Monday. They were asking if this practice goes on in the
Brittish Isles or elsewhere, being that they mentioned that the EU does it.



Perplexed,



Ben



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  3 18:32:09 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:32:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (03) [EN]
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Ben,



You wrote:



I'm on a list about the Norwegian language
mailto:norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com<norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com>.
Every now and then I hear dates demarcated in week numbers that, how liberal
of them, start on a Monday. They were asking if this practice goes on in the
Brittish Isles or elsewhere, being that they mentioned that the EU does it.



In my community it's legally forbidden to produce noise on a Sunday (the
Lord rests on that day). So folks start working again on Monday. Pretty
convenient I guess to start the working week on Monday then as well?



Personally I have no preference whatever though...24/7 is perfect for me.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Tradition



Ben,



Clearly, ?weird? things happened in the transition from the Jewish Sabbath
(on Saturday) to the Christian Sabbath (on Sunday).



The Jewish Sabbath (??????? *?abb?t*) is the last day of the week, and
Sunday (????* *???????? *y?m ri???n* ?first day?) is consequently the first
day of the next week.



Christianity shifted the Sabbath to Sunday, but in most Christian traditions
Sunday also remained the first day of the following week. Some traditions,
like that of Norway, shifted both the Sabbath and the first day of the week
by one day, hence Monday being the first day of the week.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  3 19:38:11 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:38:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (03) [EN]



Hi everyone,

I think you misunderstood Ben:

>> I'm on a list about the Norwegian
>> language mailto:norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com. Every now and then
I
>> hear dates demarcated in week numbers that, how liberal of them, start on
a
>> Monday. They were asking if this practice goes on in the Brittish Isles
or
>> elsewhere, being that they mentioned that the EU does it.
> In my community it's legally forbidden to produce noise on a Sunday (the
> Lord rests on that day). So folks start working again on Monday. Pretty
> convenient I guess to start the working week on Monday then as well?



At work (Tornesch near Hamburg, Germany) I frequently hear some people
setting dates in "Kalenderwochen" (calendar week) like
"This project needs to be done till Kalenderwoche 12". This even pops
up in todo lists and it always makes me feel to be a calendrical
analphabet. The only thing I can do is walk to a wall calendar with
"Kalenderwochen" at the left margin, translate the week number into a
proper date and take the date into my personal todo list.


> Personally I have no preference whatever though...24/7 is perfect for me.



Well, since converting to Seventh-Day-Adventism, I think that it does
matter. My advice is that 24/7 is definitely not a good idea. The text
that contains the defining passages about our western business week is
called "10 commandments" and not "10 suggestions". And it urges us to
take a proper amount of rest.

Hartlich Gr?ten and Shabbat Shalom ut Hamborg,
Heiko Evermann



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  3 22:24:37 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
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Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]



Heiko and all,



At work (Tornesch near Hamburg, Germany) I frequently hear some people
setting dates in "Kalenderwochen" (calendar week) like
"This project needs to be done till Kalenderwoche 12".



In Norway, the weeks vary depending on what?s around them, especially near
New Year?s Day. How does it work in those places where the Kalenderwoche are
used? Being that September started on a Wednesday, how do they calculate the
Kalenderwoch?



Ben



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]



The Celts used an eight day week and the Basques a three day week, is
that right? It depends on your definition of "week", of course, but if
you take it to mean a short cycle of recurring days patterned to a
lifestyle, probably each with a name to identify what sort of things we
should be doing that day, then I suppose that's right.

I'm only looking on Wikipedia and things, but I don't see any sort of
week associated with Germanic tribes. It would be a bit of a coincidence
if they had the same length of week as the Christians brought along,
surely? Or did our venerable ancestors just not bother with all that
sort of rot?

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]



Hello everyone,



apart from the matter of calendar weeks and religious traditions, is there
anyone living in a western country who has the *feeling *that a new week
begins on sunday? I definitely have not; when I wish you "Sch?nes
Wochenende" this clearly includes the Sunday; and for all the people I know
Monday is the first day of the new week. When somebody says "We will spend
this weekend on Fehmarn" everybody knows they will go to Fehmarn for
Saturday and Sunday. It would feel curious to *begin *a new week with a day
of rest. I would feel uneasy with it. Usually rest is what you need when you
have *finished *something. Or what say you?



Hartlich



Marlou



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 04:10:26 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 21:10:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.3.SEP.2010.211026.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 03 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



American calendars are usually printed with Sunday as the first day of the
week, and I?ve always considered Sunday to be the first day of the week
(probably because of my strong Christian upbringing in which we always
talked about Sunday as the first day of the week). A week has two ?ends? in
a sense (i.e., a front end and a back end, so to speak), so calling Saturday
and Sunday a ?weekend? has never bothered me. Monday is the first day of the
*work* week, which lasts five days.



I also don?t consider Sunday a ?day of rest? necessarily, but rather a day
of worship (because the resurrection occurred on the first day of the week).
Saturday is more what I?d call a ?day of rest,? but I don?t really observe a
formal day of rest.



Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, Maryland



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]



Hello everyone,



apart from the matter of calendar weeks and religious traditions, is there
anyone living in a western country who has the *feeling *that a new week
begins on sunday? I definitely have not; when I wish you "Sch?nes
Wochenende" this clearly includes the Sunday; and for all the people I know
Monday is the first day of the new week. When somebody says "We will spend
this weekend on Fehmarn" everybody knows they will go to Fehmarn for
Saturday and Sunday. It would feel curious to *begin *a new week with a day
of rest. I would feel uneasy with it. Usually rest is what you need when you
have *finished *something. Or what say you?



Hartlich



Marlou



----------



From: "Peter Snepvangers" <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>

Subject: LL-L"Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



Ben,


 You wrote:I'm on a list about the Norwegian language
mailto:norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com<norsklassen-subscribe at yahoogroups.com>.
Every now and then I hear dates demarcated in week numbers that, how liberal
of them, start on a Monday. They were asking if this practice goes on in the
Brittish Isles or elsewhere, being that they mentioned that the EU does it.



Hello Ben, Luc, Ron, Sandy et al,


Seems like we have 2 separate traditions here. Naming the days of the week
after old Norse, Germanic or Roman gods based on the 28 day lunar cycle and
another tradition of naming the days in a numerical fashion such as the
Hebrew (Sabbath is the seventh day, Saturday) and Mandarin Chinese (xing shi
yi  is Monday, first day of the week).


Some countries have a mish mash of both systems due to religion etc. Why
would Mandarin with its long history not have a celestial tradition I
wonder?



Cheers

Peter Snepvangers

Sydney Australia

snepvangers at optushome.com.au



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Tradition



Peter,

The Chinese system you referred to is fairly new and is foreign-inspired.



The original Chinese week had ten days:



The Chinese 10 day week went as far back as the Shang Dynasty (1200-1045
BC).[15] The law in the Han Dynasty (206 BC ? AD 220) required officials of
the empire to rest every 5 days, called "mu", while it was changed into 10
days in the Tang Dynasty (AD 618 ? 907), called "huan" or x?n (?). Months
were almost 3 weeks long (alternating 29 and 30 days to keep in line with
the lunation). The weeks were labelled sh?ng x?n (??), zh?ng x?n (??), and
xi? x?n (??) which mean roughly "upper", "middle" and "lower" week.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week#China]



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 14:31:16 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 07:31:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.073116.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 04 September 2010 - Volume 01
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>

Subject: LLL Traditions



I've answered my own question about the Kalenderwoch.



http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/



Ben



----------



From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Sandy,



You wrote:



I'm only looking on Wikipedia and things, but I don't see any sort of
week associated with Germanic tribes. It would be a bit of a coincidence
if they had the same length of week as the Christians brought along,
surely? Or did our venerable ancestors just not bother with all that
sort of rot?



I think they did divide a month somewhat. A lunar cycle lasts roughly 28
days (moon > month), half that is a fortnight (= fourteen nights), and half
that again (7 nights) would be a week, corresponding with the 4 phases of
the moon. Whether they attached a special significance to the changing of
weeks, I highly doubt. Then when religion came about and Jews were gathering
on a Saturday, I guess it's convenient for Muslims and Christians to choose
either one day before or one day after Saturday for a religious celebration.
Maybe because in the early days, some liked to worship more than one god,
and therefore celebrations should not coincide?



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx



----------



From: jmtait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



Sandy wrote:

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]


The Celts used an eight day week and the Basques a three day week, is
that right? It depends on your definition of "week", of course, but if
you take it to mean a short cycle of recurring days patterned to a
lifestyle, probably each with a name to identify what sort of things we
should be doing that day, then I suppose that's right.


I'm only looking on Wikipedia and things, but I don't see any sort of
week associated with Germanic tribes. It would be a bit of a coincidence
if they had the same length of week as the Christians brought along,
surely? Or did our venerable ancestors just not bother with all that
sort of rot?


Hmm. So why are all the days called after Roman and Germanic deities, then?

John M Tait.



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (04) [EN]



Hallo Lowlanners,



wat ick bether noch nich w??t heff... Nu schuw ick dit roewer, wat nu k?mmt:



http://www.nabkal.de/judkal.html



"Dat Klennern" im Kalender lesen, bl?ttern ist gar nicht so einfach...



Hartlich Gr?uten an all'.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 22:58:57 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 15:58:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.155857.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 04 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (04) [EN]



Hi Marlou,

> From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]
> Hello everyone,
> apart from the matter of calendar weeks and religious traditions, is there
> anyone living in a western country who has the feeling that a new week
> begins on sunday? I definitely have not; when I wish you "Sch?nes
> Wochenende" this clearly includes the Sunday; and for all the people I
know
> Monday is the first day of the new week. When somebody says "We will spend
> this weekend on Fehmarn" everybody knows they will go to Fehmarn for
> Saturday and Sunday. It would feel curious to begin a new week with a day
of
> rest. I would feel uneasy with it. Usually rest is what you need when you
> have finished something. Or what say you?
>
> Hartlich
> Marlou
Well, for us (being Seventh-Day-Adventist) we keep Saturday (Sabbath)
free from work and free from housework and Sunday is the day where we
put all the work that is left over from the week before. So of course,
it is still weekend, but it is also the beginning of our week.

But "this weekend" reminds me of another quirk: for me
* "this weekend" is the weekend that follows immediately,
* whereas "next weekend" is the weekend that follow after "this weekend".

But I freqently notice that quite some people do not see it this way
and say "next weekend" when they mean actually "this weekend".

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 23:00:52 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:00:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.04 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.160052.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 04 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: Keen Geld mehr f?r Platt



In case you did not know:
http://www.taz.de/1/nord/rtikel/1/keen-geld-moer/

"Schleswig-Holstein will die Mittel f?r das Institut f?r
niederdeutsche Sprache kappen."

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 23:02:27 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:02:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.04 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.160227.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 04 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: Paul Tatum <pauletatum at googlemail.com>

Subject: LL-L History



Hi all, just found this snippet about a newly discovered Saxon boat:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-11187207

Cheers, Paul Tatum.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  4 23:08:37 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:08:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.04 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.SEP.2010.160837.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language politics



The article link Heiko sent us today was missing a letter. Here is the
correct link:

http://www.taz.de/1/nord/artikel/1/keen-geld-moer/



Budget cuts were blamed for kicking Low Saxon to the curb when I was a kid.
They remain a very convenient excuse.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 16:34:26 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:34:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.093426.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]



> From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
>

> I think they did divide a month somewhat. A lunar cycle lasts roughly
> 28 days (moon > month), half that is a fortnight (= fourteen nights),
> and half that again (7 nights) would be a week, corresponding with the
> 4 phases of the moon. Whether they attached a special significance to
> the changing of weeks, I highly doubt. Then when religion came about
> and Jews were gathering on a Saturday, I guess it's convenient for
> Muslims and Christians to choose either one day before or one day
> after Saturday for a religious celebration. Maybe because in the early
> days, some liked to worship more than one god, and therefore
> celebrations should not coincide?



I read somewhere, once, ages ago, that the earliest Christians were in
the habit of meeting secretly once the Jewish celebrations had finished
(presumably they either still saw themselves as Jews or had to pretend
to do the Sabbath). These meetings could extend well into the night and
eventually became part of Sunday. Presumably this is all just guessing.

> From: jmtait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]
>
> Sandy wrote:
>
> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]

> Hmm. So why are all the days called after Roman and Germanic deities,
> then?


Oh yeah. I dunno :\

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (02) [EN]



There has been international standardization as to the order of days and
weeks:



ISO 8601 gives (translating from a standardization magazine from 1989):



- The first day of the week is Monday

- The week of the year with number 1 is the week that includes the first
Thursday of the week.



I see that in Belgian diaries the week starts with Monday.

I have a little COOP 2010-2011 diary of Harvard/MIT: it starts the week with
Sunday.



Anyhow International Standardization often applies to all countries except
to the US.



However the US is not alone, I remember I bought a diary several years ago
in Bejing, and its week numbering (for that year) was one unit offset with
the ISO system. I don't remember whether the weeks started on Sunday or
Monday in that one.



The (occupied) Southern Netherlands have had weeks of 10 days (decades) from
1895 till 1802.

cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar



See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week_number#Week_numbering



Emotionally Sunday has always been the last day of the week for me, a day of
rest after a week of hard work. We were also used to wear "Sunday clothes"
on Sunday. In our Roman Catholic tradition one was used to go to one of the
Sunday Masses. One was "read" at 7 am, a second "sung" at 10 am. In my youth
the service was still in Latin, pronounced in the S-way: S?zar for Caesar,
not Kaizar as modern scholars often do. The tradition of going to Sunday
Roman Catholic services is fading out in Belgium.



Regards,

Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 16:36:00 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:36:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.05 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.093600.0700.>

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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.04 (03) [DE-EN]



Man kricht die Seite zu sehen, wenn man in der Adresse

das fehlende "a" im Wort "rtikel" erg?nzt.

Apropos Wort. Mir fehlen diese nach Lekt?re

des von Heiko gelinkten taz-Artikels.

Hoffen wir, dass die anderen L?nder diesen

Unsinn nicht mitmachen.

Kumpelmenten, Mike Wintzer



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 17:11:55 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:11:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.101155.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (01) [EN]



Hi,

I remember that  -long ago-  I told you guys about Calendar Magic.
But, ouch, if nobody listens to me...

Calendar Magic shows calendars of 25 different cultures, and, besides, many
more magic things.

You download Calendar Magic here:

http://eurosoft.software.informer.com/

vr.gr.
Theo Homan



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 17:50:13 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:50:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.105013.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (01) [EN]



At 12:34 PM 05/09/2010, Sandy Fleming wrote:

I read somewhere, once, ages ago, that the earliest Christians were in
the habit of meeting secretly once the Jewish celebrations had finished
(presumably they either still saw themselves as Jews or had to pretend
to do the Sabbath). These meetings could extend well into the night and
eventually became part of Sunday. Presumably this is all just guessing.


Sorry, I couldn't stay on the sidelines any longer.  The seven day week
comes out of prehistoric antiquity in the Middle East, in particular in
Babylon.  The "Jews" normalized this by writing Genesis 1 around this, and
this certainly was well established by the end of the Babylonian Exile in
the 6th century BCE.  No one has ever disputed that this succession of seven
day weeks has ever been broken since then.

The early Christian church spread primarily in port cities around the
Mediterranean where there were Jewish settlements, as the Christian
"message" resonated much more among the diaspora Jews than among non-Jews.
 No one disputes that a very large portion of early Christians were Jewish
converts, and keeping Shabbat would certainly been a normal thing to do.
 Keeping Shabbat precluded travel and cooking.

You may recall that Jesus' (reputed, if you like) resurrection occurred on
the 1st day of the week, indicating at least symbolically a New Creation.
 This has always been held as a feast day, and one of travel, and so did not
in any way conflict with any Jewish customs or laws per se.  Christians were
supposed to dedicate the day to this feast by attending a meal (typically in
the evening, hence the Germanic word for the Mass, "Abendmahl" "Nachtmiel"
etc. and performing other tasks appropriate to the day such as study and
prayer.  Of course, there is nothing "Biblical" about this, and is all
"tradition".

Apparently many people chose to ignore the day even though golf hadn't been
invented yet, and the church tried to crack down.  It was the Emperor
Constantine who turned the "Lord's Day" into church law at the Council of
Nicea in 325 CE.  Of course, many people continue to confuse this day with
Shabbat, but they are really two different things.  There are still some
Christians who, in their own way, keep Shabbos.

We should really thank the Babylonians for creating the week, the Jews for
giving us one day off, and the Christians for inventing le "weekend"  (or,
as they say in Quebec, "la fin de semaine").

The Babylonians were also involved in the early beginnings of our solar
calendar.  You mathematicians may know that the idea of 360 degrees in a
circle came out of Babylon, possibly because of the many wonderful ways of
division, and being 12 moons of 30 days each, with five extra days left
over.

The Romans had this crazy system which was only partly solar, and mostly
lunar.  At the new moon, you had the first nine days (the Nones) and then
the first fifteen days (the Ides), and then whatever was left over until the
end of that moon.  Disputes about dates for payments, etc., were determined
by the Pontiff (no, not the RC Pontiff), who was subject to be influenced by
bribery.  Julius Caesar (pronounce it any way you please) went to Egypt and
brought back their purely solar calendar, with alternating months of 30 and
31 days, with one having 29, and then 30 in the leap year.  His nephew
thought his month should have at least as many days, which is why August
breaks the pattern, and February has but 28.

You can pick any day of the week as your first, but for the various peoples
of the Book, the First Day will always be Sunday.  The Quakers even did away
with the pagan names that became attached to them, and Quaker children in
many places still attend First Day School, and Christmas is on the 25th of
Twelfth Month.

Ed Alexander
Canada



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 20:24:54 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 13:24:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (05) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.132454.0700.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.04 (02) [EN]



Hello Heiko,



I think there was a discussion here some time ago about this northern german
peculiarity. I have seen meetings fail because northern germans and people
from elsewhere had different notions about what was "diesen Dienstag" :-)
But as to what "dieser Dienstag" or "this weekend" is, it can extend into
the past as well. "Dieses" is always the named day or weekend that is
closest to the time of speaking, I think, whereas "n?chstes" (future) or
"letztes" (past) is one instance farther off. If you return to your job on a
Monday you may ask your colleague "Was hast du denn dieses Wochenende
gemacht?" And he may say "Ich war im Arboretum in Ellerhoop!" You say: "Da
war ich letztes Wochenende!" Now you may switch into future: "Und was machst
du dieses Wochenende?" "Na was wohl, Pauli gegen HSV!" "Ach, ist das nicht
erst n?chstes Wochenende?" -- So "dieses" is always the closest weekend, be
it future or past. Being a Hamburger, do you agree?



Pauli:HSV 3:1! :-)



Marlou



From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.02 (04) [EN]



Hi Marlou,

> From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (02) [EN]
> Hello everyone,
> apart from the matter of calendar weeks and religious traditions, is there
> anyone living in a western country who has the feeling that a new week
> begins on sunday? I definitely have not; when I wish you "Sch?nes
> Wochenende" this clearly includes the Sunday; and for all the people I
know
> Monday is the first day of the new week. When somebody says "We will spend
> this weekend on Fehmarn" everybody knows they will go to Fehmarn for
> Saturday and Sunday. It would feel curious to begin a new week with a day
of
> rest. I would feel uneasy with it. Usually rest is what you need when you
> have finished something. Or what say you?
>
> Hartlich
> Marlou
Well, for us (being Seventh-Day-Adventist) we keep Saturday (Sabbath)
free from work and free from housework and Sunday is the day where we
put all the work that is left over from the week before. So of course,
it is still weekend, but it is also the beginning of our week.

But "this weekend" reminds me of another quirk: for me
* "this weekend" is the weekend that follows immediately,
* whereas "next weekend" is the weekend that follow after "this weekend".

But I freqently notice that quite some people do not see it this way
and say "next weekend" when they mean actually "this weekend".

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  5 23:18:32 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 16:18:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (06) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.5.SEP.2010.161832.0700.>

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (05) [DE-EN]



Hi Marlou,


> I think there was a discussion here some time ago about this northern
german
> peculiarity. I have seen meetings fail because northern germans and people
> from elsewhere had different notions about what was "diesen Dienstag" :-)
> But as to what "dieser Dienstag" or "this weekend" is, it can extend into
> the past as well. "Dieses" is always the named day or weekend that is
> closest to the time of speaking, I think, whereas "n?chstes" (future) or
> "letztes" (past) is one instance farther off. If you return to your job on
a
> Monday you may ask your colleague "Was hast du denn dieses Wochenende
> gemacht?" And he may say "Ich war im Arboretum in Ellerhoop!" You say: "Da
> war ich letztes Wochenende!" Now you may switch into future: "Und was
machst
> du dieses Wochenende?" "Na was wohl, Pauli gegen HSV!" "Ach, ist das nicht
> erst n?chstes Wochenende?" -- So "dieses" is always the closest weekend,
be
> it future or past. Being a Hamburger, do you agree?



If you say "was hast du dieses Wochenende gemacht", it is referring to
the past weekend, because the sentence is in perfect tense.
If you say "was machst du dieses Wochenende" it might be ambiguous on
Monday, but certainly not on Tuesday because business work quickly
wears off the recreation from the past weekend. So it is not the
question which weekend (past or future) is nearer.

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  6 18:14:11 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:14:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (04) [EN]



I'm not a Christian or any other "Person of the Book" myself.  But doesn't
Genesis have God labouring for six days making everything, then taking a day
off to rest? To precis a bit, "On the First Day he made this, on The Second
he made that, on the Third, he made the other", and so on.



It's my understanding that according to the Bible we get Sunday off, because
God did; So surely our "day of rest" is logically the last day of the week,
not the first? (The first being used for creating universes, or serving at
supermarket counters, depending on your abilities and responsibility level).
Oh, and getting resurrected; that supposedly happened on Monday (three days
after dying) not a Sunday.



Paul

Derby

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  6 19:51:41 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 12:51:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.6.SEP.2010.125141.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]



> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.05 (04) [EN]

> It's my understanding that according to the Bible we get Sunday off,
> because God did; So surely our "day of rest" is logically the last day
> of the week, not the first? (The first being used for creating
> universes, or serving at supermarket counters, depending on your
> abilities and responsibility level). Oh, and getting resurrected; that
> supposedly happened on Monday (three days after dying) not a Sunday.

But God was Jewish back then :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]



At 02:14 PM 06/09/2010, Paul wrote:

I'm not a Christian or any? other "Person of the Book" myself.?  But doesn't
Genesis have God labouring for six days making everything, then taking a day
off to rest? To precis a bit, "On the First Day he made this, on The Second
he made that, on the Third, he made the other", and so on.


It's my understanding that according to the Bible we get Sunday off, because
God did; So surely our "day of rest" is logically the last day of the week,
not the first? (The first being used for creating universes, or serving at
supermarket counters, depending on your abilities and responsibility level).
Oh, and getting resurrected; that supposedly happened on Monday (three days
after dying) not a Sunday.


Oh, dear, oh, dear.  (1) The days of the week in the Bible do not have
names, but are numbered, (2) Genesis 2:2 says "And on the seventh day God
ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all
his work which he had made."  (1611 AV)  The Hebrew for seventh day is Yom
ha shviyi.  The text makes a play on words on the the ordinal of the word
seventh, "sheba", with the word "shabath" which means to rest.  (3) This is
therefore the day of rest celebrated by the Jews, which is our Saturday.  If
you're not sure about this, you might want to check with your local
synagogue.  (4) If the Resurrection was on Monday, why is Easter always on a
Sunday.  Can Christians really have been that mistaken for so long?  Oh, and
BTW, God did not "make" anything on Day One.  You might want to check this
out.

And let me be the first to wish everyone a Shanah Tova!

Ed Alexander





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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  6 23:20:45 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 16:20:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (03) [EN]
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (02) [EN]



> From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
>
> Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]

> you might want to check with your local synagogue.  (4) If the
> Resurrection was on Monday, why is Easter always on a Sunday.  Can
> Christians really have been that mistaken for so long?



It's a valid way to count, just as in French we say "huit jours".

In arithmetic it's always necessary to make it clear whether "A to
B" (eg "Friday to Sunday") is inclusive of both endpoints or exclusive.
And of course they may both be included or excluded, or one excluded and
the other excluded, so there's a fair bit of leeway depending on your
cultural counting systems.

So if we say Jesus rose on the third day, that could be Sunday, it all
just depends.

By the way, as I've explained before, in Scots Sunday _must_ be taken as
the first day of the week and this gives expressions such as "next
Wednesday" much more range and accuracy than in English.


Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 01:04:20 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 18:04:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Dear Lowlanders,

When it comes to ?lobster? (*Nephropidae*), specifically ?European lobster?
(*Homarus gammarus*), I want to say *Hummer* in Low Saxon (as also in
German), although I am aware that in some parts of Northern Germany, such as
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, the word is *Lobster* (probably due to
English influence).



The Nordic Germanic languages all have variants of *hummer*, as do
Lithuanian (*omaras*), Latvian (*om?rs*), Estonian (*homaar*) and Finnish (*
hummeri*), and also the Slavic languages.



Aiming at an interregional readership in a Low Saxon writing project, I need
to decide whether to use *Hummer* or *Lobster*. What is your advice?



Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 04:26:52 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:26:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.6.SEP.2010.212652.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (03) [EN]



At 07:20 PM 06/09/2010, Sandy wrote:

So if we say Jesus rose on the third day, that could be Sunday, it all
just depends.



In this regard, you may be interested to know that in the Jewish way of
counting days, the new day starts in the evening.  Vayahi erev, vayahi
voker, yom echad.  "There was evening, and there was morning, day one."
 Genesis 1:5.

Ed Alexander



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 04:28:32 2010
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:28:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (06) [EN]
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]



Hi Ron,

All I can say is that here around Hamburg the word lobster is not
known. And it is not part of the usual vocabulary of English at school
either.

Heiko



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 16:10:10 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:10:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.07 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.7.SEP.2010.091010.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 07 September 2010 - Volume 01
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



Marlou asked: ?is there anyone living in a western country who has the *feeling
*that a new week begins on sunday??



Well, yes, I do. But, I also consider Sunday to be part of the weekend.
Strange I suppose.



By the way, I work for a governmental agency that administers Unemployment
Insurance. We pay benefits by weeks, and our weeks begin on Sundays and end
on Saturdays. Therefore, Saturday September 4 was in a different week than
Sunday September 5.



One of our policies says that if you were physically unable to work for more
than one day in a week, we cannot pay you benefits for that week. If you
were unable to work on Saturday and Sunday, we can pay you benefits for both
weeks, because those days fall in different weeks.



Mark Brooks



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  7 16:14:55 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:14:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.07 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.7.SEP.2010.091455.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 07 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Dear Lowlanders,

When it comes to ?lobster? (*Nephropidae*), specifically ?European lobster?
(*Homarus gammarus*), I want to say *Hummer* in Low Saxon (as also in
German), although I am aware that in some parts of Northern Germany, such as
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, the word is *Lobster* (probably due to
English influence).



The Nordic Germanic languages all have variants of *hummer*, as do
Lithuanian (*omaras*), Latvian (*om?rs*), Estonian (*homaar*) and Finnish (*
hummeri*), and also the Slavic languages.



Aiming at an interregional readership in a Low Saxon writing project, I need
to decide whether to use *Hummer* or *Lobster*. What is your advice?



I've never heard "Lobster" in Low Saxon. Where have you read or heard that
word? The word "Hummer"/"hommer" is present in Low Saxon, German and Dutch
(according to my etymological dictionaries it's a loan from a Scandinavian
language in all three of them). "Lobster" is only known in some Low Saxon
dialects and in English. If you aim at interregional understandability
"Hummer" is the choice.

If "Lobster" is from Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, "Hummer" has also the
advantage to stem from a region where there actually are lobsters. Lobsters
live around Helgoland in the North Sea, but they do not live in the Baltic
Sea.

It would be interesting whether there are any native Low Saxon words for it.
My etymological dictionaries say that the word "Hummer" entered German in
the 16th century. If the situation is similar for Low Saxon there must have
been a native word before. Helgoland, the main habitat, was and is
Frisian-speaking but most of the Helgolandian contact with the outside world
was conducted in Low Saxon.

On the other hand, Helgoland being the only lobster habitat close to the Low
Saxon regions it's very plausible that the word used by Helgolandians is
also the word used by their Low Saxon customers. So if there were native
terms they are almost certainly extinct now.

By the way, Ron, could "Lobster" be part of "GDR language"? Like "Broiler"?

Marcus Buck



----------



From: Uwe Tychsen <tychsen at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]



Leive Ron,

bi uns in Oosholstein heit se uk *Hummer*. ?vrigens uk in D??nmark: *Hummer*.
De Helgol?nner secht *H?mer*, uk wenn de Insel bet 1890 tau England h??rt
het. (min Fruu Ilse k?mmt daar her).

Ik gr?ss di ut Niestat
Uwe



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.06 (04) [EN]



Nu kam ick, leiw' Lowlanners,



*Lobster,* Pl. -s m. Hummer, Lobstersalat m, Hummersalat. BRI. : John
Brinckmanns Plattdeutsche Werke. Band 2, 37; 4, 55,

hg. von der Arbeitsgruppe der Plattdeutschen Gilde zu Rostock. 7 Bde.
(Wolgast)Greifswald 1924 - 1934. - Pl. Nachl.: John Brinckmans Nachla?, hg.
von A. R?mer, Plattdeutscher Teil. 3 Bde. Berlin o.J. - Volkssp.:
Mecklenburgischer Volksspiegel aus plattdeutschen Sprichw?rtern
undKernspr?chen. In: Ndd. Jb. 31, 22ff.



Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert



*Hummer:* Der Name des Schalentieres scheint sich von Skandinavien, an
dessen norwegischer K?ste seit alters gute M?glichkeiten f?r den Hummerfang
bestehen, ausgebreitet zu haben. Im dt. Sprachgebiet war das Wort zun?chst
auf das Niederd. beschr?nkt. Seit dem 16 Jh. erlangte es gemeinsprachliche
Geltung. Niederl. hummer, isl. humar, norw.,schwed., d?n. hummer, mit denen
wahrscheinlich griech. k?mmaros "eine Art Krebs" verwandt ist, geh?ren
vermutlich im Sinne "gew?lbtes oder

[mit einer Schale] bedecktes Tier" zu der unter *Hemd* dargestellten idg.
Wurzel *kem- "bedecken, umh?llen".



niederd.: niederdeutsch, niederl.: niederl?ndisch.



Lit.: DUDEN 7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache



Und noch dieses:



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummer



Die Hummergabel liegt schon bereit, "nu gah ick in denn' Fischladen un k?p
mi 'n Lobster", aber ich glaube, die Verk?uferin kennt dieses Wort nicht...



Hartlich Gr?uten.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 00:44:21 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:44:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.07 (03) [EN-FR]
Message-ID: <TUE.7.SEP.2010.174421.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 07 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.07 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]



*> From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>*

*> I've never heard "Lobster" in Low Saxon. Where have you read or heard
that word? The word "Hummer"/"hommer" is present in Low Saxon, German and
Dutch (according to my etymological dictionaries it's a loan from a
Scandinavian language in all three of them). "Lobster" is only known in some
Low Saxon dialects and in English. If you aim at interregional
understandability "Hummer" is the choice.*



I use "Kreeft" in Dutch for Eng "lobster", Germ "Krebs", French "Homard".



For the French "Homard" Littr? gives a Scandinavian etymology:

Dannois, "hommer", allem. "Hummer".



I don't know whether there is a big difference (or semantic overlap) in
German between "Hummer" and "Krebs".



Tr?vour 1743-1753 gives:

Homard, ... grosse ?crevisse de mer. En Latin "astacus"...



For "?crevisse" Littr? gives for etymology:

G?nev. "?crivisse"; picard "?cr?viche", wallon "gr?v?se", namur "gravase",
rouchi "graviche"; du germanique: anc. Haut allem. "schrepiz"; allem.
"Krebs".

[Comment: "rouchi" is a variant of Picard in the Valenciennois, adjacent to
the Belgian border]



"Ecrevisse" corresponds generally to the small crayfish, crawfish, Dutch
"rivierkreeft", German "Flu?krebs".



In my South-Western Limburgish I would use the French "Homard" for designing
lobster served as food.

It is not unusual the see French designations on printed menus.



Regards,

Roger



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Thanks, Roger.



In Low Saxon of Germany, *Kreeft* ~ *Kr??ft* means ?crab? in general (as
does German *Krebs*). In common parlance in many Low Saxon dialects (also on
the Netherlands side of the border), ?crab? may be referred to as *Dwarsl?per
~ Dwarsloper*, literally meaning ?athwart/sideways runner/walker?. I suppose
this excludes lobsters and their ilk.



There?s some confusion. *Krabb* (German *Krabbe*) ought to and in some cases
does mean ?crab?. But somehow it came to mean ?shrimp? in many dialects ...
though many Low Saxon dialects cann ?shrimp? *Granaat*. It?s a mess!



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 00:54:28 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:54:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.07 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.7.SEP.2010.175428.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 07 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.07 (01) [EN]



Dear Mark, the benefits thing makes me a convert to the Sunday-is-Day-1-rule
immediately. This is a *really* convincing argument!! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



One of our policies says that if you were physically unable to work for more
than one day in a week, we cannot pay you benefits for that week. If you
were unable to work on Saturday and Sunday, we can pay you benefits for both
weeks, because those days fall in different weeks.



Mark Brooks



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (02) [EN]



From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca<http://mc/compose?to=edsells at cogeco.ca>
>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.06 (01) [EN]



" Can Christians really have been that mistaken for so long?  Oh, and BTW,
God did not "make" anything on Day One.  You might want to check this out.


And let me be the first to wish everyone a Shanah Tova!

Ed Alexander



Don't believe a word of any of it personally, so I don't really care what
day things are or aren't supposed to have happened.



But Shanah Tova to you too, providing that's a Good Thing.



Paul



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Tradition



Paul,


*Shanah Tovah* (??? ????) literally means ?A good year? and is one of the
Hebrew greetings for Rosh HaShanah (??? ????), the Jewish New Year, which
will begin tomorrow at nightfall and will usher in the year 5771 (and only
hard-line literalist Jews believe that God created the world 5771 years
ago).



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 17:36:44 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:36:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Travel" 2010.09.08 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.8.SEP.2010.103644.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com<Osnabryg%2BLowlands at googlemail.com>
>

Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2010.09.08 [01] [NL]



Beste Laaglanders (bepaaldelijk in Belgi? en Nederland),

*- This is a personal holidays concern, which if ever is relevant only for
our Netherland and Belgian compagnons. Sorry for annoyance. Not necessary
for all others to read further. -
*
Dit is een persoonlijk vraag/verzoek , die indien dan al alleen voor
LL-maten in Nederland/Belgi? van belang kan zijn. - Mijn excuses voor de
overlast.

Om eindelijk de west- en zuid-westelijke deel van mijne Laaglandse heimat
meer te kennen en om in de hedendaagse standaardtaal van het
Nederfrankisch-Saksisch taalgebied (het Alg. Besch. NL) te vlotten ben ik
van plan, *drie weken in de Lage Landen met fiets- en vaartochten te
slijten.*

*Wie van jou gereed en belangstellend is met mij en ontmoeting te hebben,
zou me graag en persoonlijk e-mail toesturen*, opdat wij wellicht wat
afmaken kunnen. - Tijdens de middelbare week (26 september - 2 october - en
evt. volgens 7 october, dan op de weg van Gent naar de Duitse grens) zou ik
ook hulp kunnen hoeven bij het zoeken naar  en goedkope
overnachtingsmogelijkheid.

Het *raamwerk van mijne reis* is:

   - 18 - 25 september fiets- en vaartocht (hotelschip) Gent - Brugge -
   Dendermonde - Antwerpen (20/21-09) - Gouda - Amsterdam (door Belgian
   Biking),
   - weekend *25/26 september Amsterdam* (overnachting bij "vrienden op de
   fiets" al versorgd),
   - volgende week *(26/27-09 tot 2 october) met fiets van A'dam naar Gent*,
   maar route en (slaap-)plaatsen nog open - die moet ik nog plannen.
   - 2-7 Oktober: *fietstrektocht in Oost-Vlaanderen* (Gent - Temse/Bornem -
   Geraardsbergen - Kluisbergen - Gent). Door Fietsvakantiewinkel.nl, hotels
   geboekt.
   - Vanaf 7 Oktober per trein direct of met ??n, twee onderbrekingen,
   indien en afspraakje eruit blijkt van Gent naar Berlijn. Terug in Berlijn
   10/11 oktober, het laatste.


Ik zou blij zijn reacties erop per PM uit de Lage Landen te krijgen ?
Met echt-westf?lsken ?Goutgaun!?

 joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries

Osnabr?gge => Berlin-Pankow



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 17:39:44 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:39:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.08 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.8.SEP.2010.103944.0700.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Marlou,



You wrote:



Dear Mark, the benefits thing makes me a convert to the Sunday-is-Day-1-rule
immediately. This is a *really *convincing argument!! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



One of our policies says that if you were physically unable to work for more
than one day in a week, we cannot pay you benefits for that week. If you
were unable to work on Saturday and Sunday, we can pay you benefits for both
weeks, because those days fall in different weeks.



Mark Brooks



I understand the financial benefit you will get under Mark's system from
being ill on both Saturday and Sunday...but you would get the same profit if
weeks would end on a, say Wednesday, and Thursday would be the first day of
the new week. As long as end and beginning are adjacent, you can straddle
two weeks, being absent for only two days.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 17:44:50 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:44:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.08 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.8.SEP.2010.104450.0700.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"



Beste Ron,



You wrote:



There?s some confusion. *Krabb* (German *Krabbe*) ought to and in some cases
does mean ?crab?. But somehow it came to mean ?shrimp? in many dialects ...
though many Low Saxon dialects cann ?shrimp? *Granaat*. It?s a mess!



Many Dutch dialects also have something along the lines of "ge(e)rnaat" (B),
"grenaat" for shrimp, instead of standard "garnaal". Unclear etymology,
maybe derived from a personal name.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



---------



From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2010.09.07 (03) [EN-FR]



Nu gifft/giwwt dat noch 'n Nahklapp,



Dwasl?per, Dwarsl?per: Syn. Kr?wt: Taschenkrebs (Wismar/Kirchdorf).

Kr?wt, auch Taschenkr?wt; cancer 'ein Krevet' (?ber dem 1. e steht noch ein
ganz kleines e, was nicht in der Zeichentabelle aufgef?hrt ist); Kr?hft,
Kraeft; kindersprachlich: Kriweldi-Kraweldi-Kr?wt; nach der H?utung im
Sommer nennt man den Flu?krebs wegen seiner noch weichen Schale
'Botterkr?wt, auch Slu- und Muterkr?wt.



http://www.kinder-tierlexikon.de/t/taschenkrebs.htm



Ein Dwasl?per ist auch ein Querl?ufer, ein widerborstiger Mensch, Junge,
Dienstbote; aber in der Gegend Parchim/Dobbertin handelt es sich um einen
munteren Knaben.



Krabb, auch Kraff, Krapp, Pl. Krabben, Krappen.

Gl?w mi s?ker, Wismarsch Krabben,  dat s?nd gor kein slichte Happen.



Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert



So as ?mmer.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  8 18:09:06 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:09:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.08 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.8.SEP.2010.110906.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 08 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Marlou,



You wrote:



Dear Mark, the benefits thing makes me a convert to the Sunday-is-Day-1-rule
immediately. This is a *really *convincing argument!! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.03 (03) [EN]



One of our policies says that if you were physically unable to work for more
than one day in a week, we cannot pay you benefits for that week. If you
were unable to work on Saturday and Sunday, we can pay you benefits for both
weeks, because those days fall in different weeks.



Mark Brooks



I understand the financial benefit you will get under Mark's system from
being ill on both Saturday and Sunday...but you would get the same profit if
weeks would end on a, say Wednesday, and Thursday would be the first day of
the new week. As long as end and beginning are adjacent, you can straddle
two weeks, being absent for only two days.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 14:38:00 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:38:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.09 (01) [NL]
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.073800.0700.>

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>

Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2010.09.08 (02) [EN]



Beste oaltegoare,



In Oostende (West-Vlaanmse kust) wordt de maandag als eerste dag beschouwd.



vrijdag, zaterdag en zondag noemen we ook: 't ?nde van de weke;

maandag en dinsdag: 't begun van de weke;

woensdag e donderdag: 't midn van de weke.



Vele werkers kregen de zaterdag hun loon. Die dag werd er ook een bad
genomen. Vandaar:

    zoaterdag woaterdag

    loate noened ?n g?lddag

        zaterdag waterdag, late middag en gelddag)



Anderzijds was er ook een kinderbalspel waarbij alle medespelers de naam van
een dag hadden. De naam van dit spel was: "zundag-moandag"...Daar wordt de
"zondag" dus het eerst genoemd.

Bij ons zou er niemand de zondag de eerste dag noemen! De maandag werd er
gezegd: me moen were w?rkn (we moeten weer werken).



Toetnoasteki,



Roland Desnerck

Watergangstraat 9

8420 De Haan

West-Vlaanderen



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 14:39:40 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:39:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.073940.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>

Subject: lexicon



Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 14:40:55 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:40:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN] Correction
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.074055.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 09 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: lexicon



Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 14:42:49 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:42:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN] Correction
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Q_KbTm-P5=k1h471dkFz2PhO3i=jOw6MFtnPD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.074249.0700.>

=====================================================

*L O W L A N D S - L - 09 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: lexicon



Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  9 23:32:57 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:32:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.9.SEP.2010.163257.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 09 September 2010 - Volume 03
*lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"



Beste Helge,

You wrote:

> I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a
truly Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?
>

 Common (Indo)-Germanic word I think. Dutch has "drijten" for "to poop",
Russian has "dristatj" (phonetic) for the same activity and Latin has
"stercus" for dung). Achterhoeks: "dretterig" = suffering from diarrhea.
Also Southern Dutch dialect "drets", "drits" for "mud" (E) and "dretsen",
"dressen", drasjen" for "to splash". A heavy shower of rain, happening on
the Belgian National Holiday, is therefore called the "drache nationale" in
Belgian French:

http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/drache_nationale

By the way, the etymology on that page, given for "drache" is completely
wrong...the word is not cognate with German "dreschen", "to thresh"
(E)...which is "d?s(e)n" in Brabantish.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



----------



From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>

Subject: Etymology



Hello!

Helge Tietz wrote:
> I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a
> truly Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to
> express objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld
> (Lower Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note,
> we have crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end.
> Amazingly, in Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled
> "drit") meaning exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same
> context. Moreover, English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be
> derived from the Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the
> Vikings about 1000 years ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish,
> Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has this expression (as far as I know) and I
> am wondering whether the word "drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent
> "driss") is derived from common Germanic language heritage or whether it
> has been ex/imported to one or the other area at one point. I am
> suspecting the former because the latter would mean that there has been
> some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and Norway during the
> Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings obviously sailed up
> the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages left a linguistic
> trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the expression
> "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

The word "driit", "driet" is indeed used in Westphalian Low Saxon, mostly as
feminine "driete". It also means "dirt" or even "shit".
It is also sometimes used in Ruhrdeutsch, e.g. "Wat dat gestern widda
f?r ne Driete wa!". The "liquid equivalent" is "miege", also used
both in Westphalian Low Saxon and Ruhrdeutsch.

Gued gaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.rub.de
Bochum



----------



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN]



From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: lexicon



Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge



The word is known in Low Saxon areas too. My Plattmakers dictionary has
entries on "drieten" ('to defecate', DE 'koten';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9594> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9594>),
"Driet" ('feces', DE 'Kot';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9597><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9597>),
"Drietsack" ('douchebag', DE 'Schei?kerl';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9595> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9595>),
"Drietkeerl" (the same;
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9630><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9630>),
"drietendick" ('completely drunk', DE 'schei?besoffen';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9596> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9596>)
"drietegaal" ("Dat is mi drietegaal!": 'I don't give a fuck', DE 'Das ist
mir schei?egal';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9599><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9599>)
and "Driethuus" ('bog/crapper', DE 'Schei?haus';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9600> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9600>).

Here's the map for the word "drieten":
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=map&id=9594><http://plattmakers.de/?show=map&id=9594>.
So far Plattmakers has collected only one reference from Rhade in Westfalia.
Further references are:

- Woeste: 'Westf?lisches W?rterbuch', p. 57, who has "dri?t" ('feces') and
"dri?terig" ('dirty').
- 'W?rterbuch der Westm?nsterl?ndischen Mundart', p. 236, has "Driet" (m),
"Driete" (f), both meaning 'feces; dirt; small amount, worthless small
thing', "drieten" ('defecate'), "Driet-??rs" ('douchebag'), "Driet-aos"
('douchebag'),"Drietbladd" ('hand [when playing cards] that is useless'),
"driete" ('very; totally'), "Drieteb??l" ('coward; sluggard; scumbag'),
"drietegaal" (as above), "Drietek??wen" ('bucket you defecated in in the old
times'), and about 25 more words.
- Kocks: 'Woordenboek van de Drentse dialecten', p. 227, several entries.
- Gall?e: 'Woordenboek van het Geldersch-Overijssels dialect', p. 9:
"dr?ten" ('exonerare alveum')
- Kahl: 'W?rterbuch des M?nsterl?nder Platt', p. 300, has "Drite" ('dirt')
and "dritendik" ('completely drunk').

Dictionaries I haven't found the word in: 'Versuch eines
Bremisch-Nieders?chsischen W?rterbuchs', Schambach: 'W?rterbuch der
niederdeutschen Mundart der F?rstenth?mer G?ttingen und Grubenhagen',
Molema: 'Woordenboek der Groningsche Volkstaal', Bauer: 'Waldeckisches
W?rterbuch nebst Dialektproben', Strodtmann: 'Idoticon Osnabrugense',
Koolman: 'Ostfriesisches W?rterbuch', D?hnert: 'Plattdeutsches W?rterbuch
nach der alten und neuen pommerschen und r?gischen Mundart', Frischbier:
'Preussisches W?rterbuch', Sch?tze: 'Holsteinisches Idiotikon'.

This suggests to me that it is a solely Westfalian word.
To me it sounds plausible that is was a common Germanic word that fell out
of use in some regions. But if it was common Germanic it must have fallen
out of use at an early stage. There seem to be no traces in Low Saxon
outside Westfalian. That points back in time to about 500 AD, the time when
Westfalia and parts of what is now the Netherlands became saxonized. My
guess is that the Saxons had lost the word before 500, but the pre-Saxon
Westfalians still knew it and imported it in their new language. If "driet"
was a Frankish import or if "driet" fell out of use at a later date it
wouldn't be confined to Westfalia.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 10 15:54:08 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:54:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.10 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.10.SEP.2010.085408.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN]



The Oxford Dictionary says it first apperas in Middle English, from Old
Norse *drit*, as you say. In this early form it had the specific meaning of
"excrement". Old English used *fylth* ("filth"), related to "foul" and I
assume to Dutch *vuilte*?



Paul

Derby

England



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]



Hallo alle Lowlanders,



ich schlug einen anderen Weg ein und recherchierte :



MITTELHOCHDEUTSCHES TASCHENW?RTERBUCH (30. Auflage 1962) S. HIRZEL VERLAG
LEIPZIG (1. Auflage September 1885)



drit: drei; drite: Ordnungsnummer der dritte; dris s. dr?es: adv. dreimal



Gru?.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 11 14:33:24 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 07:33:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.11.SEP.2010.073324.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 11 September 2010 - Volume 01
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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.10 (01) [DE-EN]



?Drieten? is  normal dutch lowsaxon slang for ?to go to the toilet?  same as
Norwegian than I guess?



[Wim Verdoold]



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 11 14:35:11 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 07:35:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.11.SEP.2010.073511.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 11 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Culture"



Now on exhibit at the Westfries Museum in Hoorn (Friesland), the oldest
stock certificate in the world, issued by the VOC, the "Vereenigde
Oostindische Compagnie", dating from 1606. Beautiful website with more
information:

http://www.worldsoldestshare.com/

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 11 20:17:05 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:17:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.11.SEP.2010.131705.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 11 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]



Beste Lowlanners,



some more about "driiten" etc.



Marcus:



This suggests to me that it is a solely Westfalian word.
To me it sounds plausible that is was a common Germanic word that fell out
of use in some regions. But if it was common Germanic it must have fallen
out of use at an early stage. There seem to be no traces in Low Saxon
outside Westfalian. That points back in time to about 500 AD, the time when
Westfalia and parts of what is now the Netherlands became saxonized. My
guess is that the Saxons had lost the word before 500, but the pre-Saxon
Westfalians still knew it and imported it in their new language. If "driet"
was a Frankish import or if "driet" fell out of use at a later date it
wouldn't be confined to Westfalia.



Could the German word "Abtritt", meaning WC, be related?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



----------



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"



Dear Lowlanners,



in our local dialect of LS we use the curious term *"Basbecker"* for German
"Wiesenschnake", *Tipula paludosa. *Other trivial names in German are
'Schuster', 'Weberknecht' etc..



Let me explain the curiosity: "Basbeck" is a small village near by (just on
the half between Marcus and me, near to the maternal Low Saxon roots of
Marlou ;-)), but the name "Basbecker" for this mosquito is used in a larger
area around (ca. 40 km in circle??), in Land Hadeln as well as in Land
Kehdingen.



It would be interesting to hear from other Lowlanners

-if the name even is widerly spread out than in the named region;

-what could be the background of such a special local nickname?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 12 17:32:33 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:32:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.12.SEP.2010.103233.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (03) [EN]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]

some more about "driiten" etc.

Could the German word "Abtritt", meaning WC, be related?

The dictionary of the Brothers Grimm says it's from "treten". Here's the
relevant paragraph that shows the initial meaning:


der abtritt vom amte (gegen?ber dem antritt), aus dem leben (hintritt), von
der b?hne, vom glauben; auch wol cessio, der abtritt eines rechts,
grundst?cks f. abtretung. endlich der geheime ort und gang im hause, der
abtritt, f?r welchen die sprache eine menge andrer namen bietet. (s.
DWBh?uschen<http://urts55.uni-trier.de:8080/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?bookref=10,655,1&mode=&prefix=hae&patternlist=>,
DWB l?ublein<http://urts55.uni-trier.de:8080/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?bookref=12,297,72&mode=&prefix=lae&patternlist=>,
DWB gelegenheit<http://urts55.uni-trier.de:8080/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?bookref=5,2938,72&mode=&prefix=gel&patternlist=>,
heimliches gemach, abort, ausgang, sprachhaus.)

So "Abtritt" meant a "retreat place" in the house. A place where you would
go when you 'step away' (abtreten).

Marcus Buck

 From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

in our local dialect of LS we use the curious term *"Basbecker"* for German
"Wiesenschnake", *Tipula paludosa. *Other trivial names in German are
'Schuster', 'Weberknecht' etc..

Let me explain the curiosity: "Basbeck" is a small village near by (just on
the half between Marcus and me, near to the maternal Low Saxon roots of
Marlou ;-)), but the name "Basbecker" for this mosquito is used in a larger
area around (ca. 40 km in circle??), in Land Hadeln as well as in Land
Kehdingen.

It would be interesting to hear from other Lowlanners

-if the name even is widerly spread out than in the named region;

-what could be the background of such a special local nickname?



I have no idea about the background. All I can say is that the common word
for this animal is "Schooster" in my dialect. That's the only word I know
for it. But it's possible that more competent speakers of our dialect know
the term "Basbecker" too.

Marcus Buck



----------



From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (03) [EN]



some more about "driiten" etc.

*-------Originalmeldung-------*



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]



Dear Lowlanders,



as a "Muensterlaender" by birth the expression "drieten" or much more used
as a noun "driet(e)" is pretty well known to me. in the sense: >Wi m?t't
Driete f?ren>.

That means: The pit is full. We have to carry out manure from the barn.



P.S. Same word is used in Twentsch Platt on Dutch side.



Heinrich Becker

from Berlin



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz HanneHinz at t-online.de

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.11 (03) [EN]



Dear Jonny and Lowlanners,



you wrote: in our local dialect of LS we use the curious term *"Basbecker" *for
German "Wiesenschnake", *Tipula paludosa. *Other trivial names in German are
'Schuster', 'Weberknecht' etc..



Look please: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weberknechte ...is it right?



Allerbest ok von mi.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 12 23:02:07 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:02:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.12.SEP.2010.160207.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 12 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (01) [EN]



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>


From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

in our local dialect of LS we use the curious term *"Basbecker"* for German
"Wiesenschnake", *Tipula paludosa. *Other trivial names in German are
'Schuster', 'Weberknecht' etc..

Let me explain the curiosity: "Basbeck" is a small village near by (just on
the half between Marcus and me, near to the maternal Low Saxon roots of
Marlou ;-)), but the name "Basbecker" for this mosquito is used in a larger
area around (ca. 40 km in circle??), in Land Hadeln as well as in Land
Kehdingen.

It would be interesting to hear from other Lowlanners

-if the name even is widerly spread out than in the named region;

-what could be the background of such a special local nickname?



I have no idea about the background. All I can say is that the common word
for this animal is "Schooster" in my dialect. That's the only word I know
for it. But it's possible that more competent speakers of our dialect know
the term "Basbecker" too.


I've done some (oral) research, the term "Basbecker" is known in our dialect
too.

Marcus Buck



----------



From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (01) [EN]



Hi all!

I actually have collected a little list of Low Saxon words I am using now
when speaking to my little child and with some of the words it occurred me
that I never really got to know what their origins are:

"aisch" > for naughty
"kruetsch" > if the child don't wants to eat the food it is supposed ot eat
"bloof" > flower, instead of common LS "bloom", might be a very local thing
for the Rendsborg district in Sleswick-Holsten
"roe" as the plural of "rad" > wheel and the same for "bloe" as the plural
of "blatt" > leave
"freemark" > stamp, I suspect Danish origin ("frimerke")
"groessoellern" instead of common LS "grootoellern", again, might be a very
local thing for the Rendsborg district
"kroeti" > for stubborn
"jitteli" > for impatient
"tueffeli" > for clumsy
"glaai" > dishonest friendliness or dishonest kindliness.
"slusoor" > for a person who is careless
"schlaeif" > for a phlegmatic person

Anyone any ideas what are the origins of those words? Pleased note, I do not
have the umlauts on my keyboard and oe is the German-o-Umlaut (Dutch > eu),
ue the German-u-Umlaut (Dutch > u) and ae the German a-Umlaut (close to
Dutch ee).

Groeten,
Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 13 16:16:44 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:16:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.13.SEP.2010.091644.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 13 September 2010 - Volume 01
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"



Beste Lowlanners,

this may be an interesting thread:



*quote *



Franstalige kinderen leren best eerst in het Nederlands lezen



Franstalige kinderen in de basisschool leren best eerst in het Nederlands
lezen en dan pas in hun moedertaal. De opgedane ervaring in het Nederlands
komt later het Frans ten goede. Deze opmerkelijke conclusie staat in de
eindverhandeling van taalkundige Charlotte Vandersmissen van de Vrije
Universiteit Brussel.



Samen met het Engels behoort het Frans tot de 'moeilijke talen' in de zin
dat de overeenkomst tussen wat er geschreven wordt en hoe het gelezen wordt
niet altijd eenduidig is, zo staat in een persbericht van de VUB. 'Als je
een 'o' hoort in het Nederlands is de kans groot dat je 'o' spelt, maar niet
zo in het Frans waar dit bijvoorbeeld 'eau' of 'au' kan zijn.'



Jonge kinderen die eerst in een taal zoals het Nederlands leren lezen, doen
eerst ervaring op met een makkelijke taal. Deze ervaring kunnen ze daarna
aanwenden bij het decoderen van een moeilijke taal zoals het Frans, is de
redenering.



In Franstalig Belgi? is het meertalig onderwijs in opmars. Vorig schooljaar
waren er meer dan tweehonderd scholen bij betrokken, waarvan meer dan 80
procent voor het Nederlands koos. In de basisscholen wordt maar liefst 50
tot 75 procent van het curriculum in het Nederlands onderwezen.



Bron:
De Morgen, webeditie, 27 augustus 2010
http://www.demorgen.be


'Woord van de dag'
Een initiatief van de vakgroep Nederlands, FU Berlin
Abonnement nemen/opzeggen en archief op
http://neon.niederlandistik.fu-berlin.de/woordvandedag/



*unquote*



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 13 16:19:20 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:19:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.13 (02) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.13.SEP.2010.091920.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics"



... and this as well:



*quote*



Nederlands als hoofdtaal in de Grondwet



DEN HAAG - Het kabinet gaat de Nederlandse taal in de Grondwet opnemen, zo
besloot het vrijdag. Het Nederlands wordt erin vastgelegd als de offici?le
taal van ons land. Ook komt erin te staan dat de overheid het gebruik van
het Nederlands bevordert.



Het is voor alle Nederlanders de gemeenschappelijke taal en de hoofdtaal,
stelt het kabinet. 'Het voorstel tot wijziging van de Grondwet moet
waarborgen dat men in Nederland te allen tijde met de Nederlandse taal
terecht kan in het verkeer met de overheid.'

Daarbij kunnen andere talen een gewaarborgde positie in de wet hebben, zoals
het Fries en het Papiaments op Bonaire en het Engels op Sint Eustatius en
Saba.
Het wetsvoorstel en het advies van de Raad van State worden nu naar de
Tweede Kamer gestuurd.



Al in februari zei toenmalig minister Bos dat het kabinet voornemens was het
Nederlands te verankeren in de grondwet, maar toen moest nog advies worden
ingewonnen bij de Raad van State. Op het voornemen van het kabinet kwamen
gemengde reacties. Staatsrechtgeleerde Tijn Kortmann zei in de Volkskrant:
'Ik vind het onbegrijpelijk, onwenselijk en contraproductief. De Grondwet is
geen verzamelplaats voor ad hoc-wensen die afhangen van de maatschappelijke
conjunctuur. Dit bevalt mij helemaal niet.'



Overigens is het wijzigen van de grondwet geen eenvoudige procedure. Eerst
moet het voorstel door Eerste en Tweede Kamer worden aangenomen. Vervolgens
moeten er verkiezingen worden gehouden en moet het definitieve wetsvoorstel
nogmaals door beide Kamers worden geaccepteerd. Ditmaal met een tweederde
meerderheid.



Bron:
De Volkskrant, webeditie, 3 september 2010
http://www.volkskrant.nl



'Woord van de dag'
Een initiatief van de vakgroep Nederlands, FU Berlin
Abonnement nemen/opzeggen en archief op
http://neon.niederlandistik.fu-berlin.de/woordvandedag/



*unquote*



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 13 16:24:17 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:24:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.13 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.13.SEP.2010.092417.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (01) [EN]



Beste Hanne,



Du schreyvst:

Look please: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weberknechte ...is it right?



Mit de Naomens "Schuster" un' "Weberknecht" kaomt de L??' faoken in'n
T?del - dat schrivvt Wiki ouk hier:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnaken



Hesst goud opp-passt ;-)!



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



----------



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (02) [EN]



From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

I actually have collected a little list of Low Saxon words I am using now
when speaking to my little child and with some of the words it occurred me
that I never really got to know what their origins are:


"aisch" > for naughty
"kruetsch" > if the child don't wants to eat the food it is supposed ot eat
"bloof" > flower, instead of common LS "bloom", might be a very local thing
for the Rendsborg district in Sleswick-Holsten
"roe" as the plural of "rad" > wheel and the same for "bloe" as the plural
of "blatt" > leave
"freemark" > stamp, I suspect Danish origin ("frimerke")
"groessoellern" instead of common LS "grootoellern", again, might be a very
local thing for the Rendsborg district
"kroeti" > for stubborn
"jitteli" > for impatient
"tueffeli" > for clumsy
"glaai" > dishonest friendliness or dishonest kindliness.
"slusoor" > for a person who is careless
"schlaeif" > for a phlegmatic person



- "eisch" is from Germanic aiwisk (
<http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\germet&first=21><http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cgermet&first=21>)
"dishonour, disgrace, offence".
- "kr?tsch" is probably folk etymology connecting the word "kr??sch" with
"Kruud". "kr??sch" is a form with metathesis of "k??rsch", formerly
"k?risch" from the same stem as German "k?ren" and English "choose". In the
end it's connected with English "choosy".
- I don't know about "R?'" and "Bl?'", but it's the same here (either "R?'"
or "R?'r")
- "Gr???llern" is semi-Standard German. Many Low Saxon dialects know forms
like that.
- "t?ffeli(g)" most likely is from "T?ffel" meaning "slipper", short for
"Pant?ffel". Somebody who is "t?ffelig" is clumsy like somebody who wears
slippers.
- "Sleef" means "dipper". I don't know the semantical connection between
"dipper" and phlegmatic person", but it's the same word and "phlegmatic
person" is a metaphoric use.
- "kr?ti(g)" is from Middle Low Saxon "krode" meaning "venomous, vicous,
malign".
- "glai" means "glistening" and is related to "gl?hen" meaning "to glow".
The meaning "dishonest friendliness or dishonest kindliness" is figurative.
- "jiddeli(g)" is known here too, but I don't know the origin.
- I never heard "Bloof".

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 00:58:01 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:58:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.13.SEP.2010.175801.0700.>

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From: Ulpi Alvarez <email at ulpialvarez.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (01) [EN-NL]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de<http://jonny%2Emeibohm at arcor.de/>
>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning"

Beste Lowlanners,
this may be an interesting thread:


Definitely a link worth posting to facebook :-)



----------



From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (01) [EN-NL]



Hi Jonny,


> Franstalige kinderen leren best eerst in het Nederlands lezen

> ...

> Samen met het Engels behoort het Frans tot de 'moeilijke talen' in de zin
> dat de overeenkomst tussen wat er geschreven wordt en hoe het gelezen
wordt
> niet altijd eenduidig is, zo staat in een persbericht van de VUB. 'Als je
> een 'o' hoort in het Nederlands is de kans groot dat je 'o' spelt, maar
niet
> zo in het Frans waar dit bijvoorbeeld 'eau' of 'au' kan zijn.'


To me this is no surprise. I wonder how they learn to read. How do you
teach first words? Does one have to pick words that are pronounced
almost as they are written? After all I do that even in German. We
start with "MAMA", "PAPA" "OPA" and "OMA" and not with words that are
not written according to our customs at all like "GENDER
MAINSTREAMING". But with French the choices are very limited. ("Child,
forget about the last letter, we never pronounce that..:")

But the story also reminds me of an old joke:
Conversation between an Englishman, a Frenchman and a German.
(Besides: it is Englishwoman. Does the word Frenchwoman exist? But it
definitely is not Gerwoman...)
Englishman: in our language we have big differences between spelling
and pronunciation. We write "hiccough" and say "hickup".
Frenchmen: we write "cherchaient" and say "shershe"
German: well, in German it is even worse. We write "Wie bitte?" and say
"h?h?".

Heiko Evermann
Hamburg



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 17:37:01 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:37:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.14 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.14.SEP.2010.103701.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.13 (01) [EN-NL]



That is amazing! By the same logic, from what they are saying, English also
falls into the "difficult" class, so maybe we should be teaching kids to
read Dutch first?!!



I'm only half joking.  I've always felt that Dutch would be easier for early
learners to grasp than French or German, and although it has far fewer
speakers, I think it would be a "foot in the door" to language learning.  It
would go some way toward breaking down this concrete barrier we seem to have
in the UK when considering other languages.



It would be interesting to know if bilingual British people, notably Welsh
and those from immigrant families, are any better with other languages than
native Anglophones.



Paul

Derby,

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 17:38:08 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:38:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (02) [EN]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.13 (02) [EN-NL]



Also interesting....except I don't know what (or where?) "de Grondwet"
actually is!

I was also surprised to find (if I've understood correctly) that there are
semi-officially English-speaking places - Sint Eustatius and Saba; are they
in the Caribbean?



Paul

Derby

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 17:39:58 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:39:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.14 (03) [DE]
Message-ID: <TUE.14.SEP.2010.103958.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.13 (03) [EN]

insbesondere  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.12 (02) [EN]



Liebe Lowlanners,



vielleicht kann ich auch noch etwas beitragen...



"aisch"; eisch> unartig (gilt f?r unartiges kleines Kind)

"kruetsch"; kr??dsch> w?hlerisch (beim Essen)

"bloof"> k?nnte hier ein Tippfehler vorliegen?  bloot: nackt; Bloot: Blut
oder Bluff: impertinenter Mensch

"bloom"> Blaum: Blume

"roe"> R??'d : R?der; r??d: zart, m?rbe

"bloe"> Zustand des Bl?hens

"freemark"> stamp, Briefmarke, Stempel, Marke, Kennzeichen

"groessoellern"> Groot?llern: Gro?eltern

"kroeti"> kr?telig: kraus; kroetig: reizbar, ?rgerlich

"jitteli">, giddelig, hiddelig: unruhig, aufgeregt, hastig

"tueffeli">, t?ffelig, toffelig: tolpelhaft, einf?ltig, unbeholfen

"glaai"> glei; schier, glatt, fr?hlich, freundlich

"slusoor"> Slusuhr: Schlitzohr, Schelm, Halunke

"schlaeif"> Schleef (Brinckman), Sleif, Sleef: gro?er K?chenl?ffel,
ungelenkter Junge



Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert



Mit best' Gr?uten.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 14 20:49:55 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:49:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.14.SEP.2010.134955.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (02) [EN]



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.13 (02) [EN-NL]



Also interesting....except I don't know what (or where?) "de Grondwet"
actually is!



What the USA would call the constitution (I believe the UK does not have
one...).

Literally "ground-law", so "most basic law", in a way. Probably a loan
translation of Grundgesetz, I suppose?



I was also surprised to find (if I've understood correctly) that there are
semi-officially English-speaking places - Sint Eustatius and Saba; are they
in the Caribbean?



They are, yes. The other half of St. Maarten (a.k.a. Saint-Martin) is a
French "self-governed colony" (collectivit? d'outre mer), so I supposed
knowledge of French would be widespread, but according to the Wikipedia
page, most people speak English there as well (being descendents of English
slaves).



Henno



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 20:25:13 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:25:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.15.SEP.2010.132513.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (04) [EN]



Thanks Henno.

Obvious once you explained it!



Paul



From: Henno Brandsma
<hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>>


Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.14 (02) [EN]



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.13 (02) [EN-NL]



Also interesting....except I don't know what (or where?) "de Grondwet"
actually is!



What the USA would call the constitution (I believe the UK does not have
one...).

Literally "ground-law", so "most basic law", in a way. Probably a loan
translation of Grundgesetz, I suppose?



I was also surprised to find (if I've understood correctly) that there are
semi-officially English-speaking places - Sint Eustatius and Saba; are they
in the Caribbean?



They are, yes. The other half of St. Maarten (a.k.a. Saint-Martin) is a
French "self-governed colony" (collectivit? d'outre mer), so I supposed
knowledge of French would be widespread, but according to the Wikipedia
page, most people speak English there as well (being descendents of English
slaves).



Henno



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 20:27:09 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:27:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]
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From: James Ward <jamesward at earthlink.net>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.14 (01) [EN]



Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:

I'm only half joking.  I've always felt that Dutch would be easier for early
learners to grasp than French or German, and although it has far fewer
speakers, I think it would be a "foot in the door" to language learning.  It
would go some way toward breaking down this concrete barrier we seem to have
in the UK when considering other languages.



Apologies to all for going off on a non-Lowlands tangent, but I must just
quietly whisper "Esperanto."  Wistful, wishful thinking, I know, but a very
good candidate for a "foot in the door" language.

James Ward



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 20:28:47 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:28:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.15 (03) [NDS]
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.14 (03) [DE]



Leeve Lowlanders, leeve Hanne un Markus!

Nae, min leeve Hanne, "bloof" foer "bloom" is keen verschrieven, so segg wi
dat woerkli in Rendsborg-Land un ik muech ok gern weten of dat no andere
regionen giff wo dat so segg ward. Awer waroem "bloof" un ni "bloom" schient
ni rech duetli to ween, uennersoech haett dat wul ok no keen. Un een, de
glaai is, is fruendli na buten aawer of he/se dat eerli meent is wat
anners.....

Hm, Markus, of denn "Groessoellern" vun dat hochduetsche "Grosseltern"
kuemmt boen ik mi ni seker, mi duech dat kuemmt eerder vun "groetsoellern"
("de groetsten oellern") un is versleten to "groessoellern", so as ok bi ons
utspraak "aster" foer "achter" wat egentli vun "achster" kuemmt. Anders
schull dat wull "grossoellern" heeten un ni "groessoellern". Lokal is dat ok
so dat wi ut all de kotten "e"s een "i" maak, so as "dinken" foer "denken",
dat is sik wedher lik mit "thinking" in Engelsch (oder no beter "thinkin'"
in Nord Amerika un Northumberland), wi hebb ok "hef" foer "hebb" un "twinni"
foer "twentig", so as Northumbrian (un ok Amerikansch) "twenni", is doch
duetli dat een deel vun dat engelsche eer wuddeln wul in Middelholsten
haett.....

Ik waer jues mit een olen fruend ut Carlisle, Cumbria op radtour in
Sleswig-Holsten un wi heb een ole tante vun mi kott besoecht op'n wigh un
dat waer doch wedher lusti dat min fruend dat gliks verstaan kun as se sae
to em "gif mi man din waater buddel", dat waer sik meist lik mit Cumbrian,
in Cumbrian Engelsch bruken se no juemmers Old-Engelsch "thine" (in de form
"thin") foer 'yours".....un i Braehult (Deutsch: Breiholz, Dansk: Bregholt)
an de Eider kun man no richti fin Plattduetsch schnacken bi'n baecker, as
een mol good Middelholsten-Plattduetsch hoeren woell, denn foor man to
baecker Greve in Braehult!

Leve Groeten,
Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 21:09:34 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:09:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (04) [EN]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]



Too southern and Latiny for me. Middelsprake, which was promoted by Igmar
Roedinger, formerly of this group, is more suitable for us Northern types.



Paul



----------



From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]



In "response" to Paul's suggestion of Dutch and James' counter (wist/hful)
suggestion of Esperanto as "foot-in-the-door ((feet-in the door??)
languages", it all depends which door you are trying to get your feet into.

If "we" are trying to get in touch with our Germanic/Lowlandic roots, then
obviously Dutch (or Flemish ... or maybe Frysk) is a good choice; certainly
felt to be "easier" at all levels than German by most English learners ...
though if "easiness" is our criteria maybe Afrikaans might be a better
candidate (certainly less inflectional morphology than Dutch) ... esp.
considering it has acquired a few more English-like grammatical features
than Dutch. (If we practice our reading with the newspaper "Volkskrant" --
which is what I broke my teeth on--, which my professor and mentor CH van
Schooneveld described as being written in English syntax with Dutch words,
then maybe the task of learning Dutch would be even easier)

On the other hand, as English has a significant Romance component in its
vocabulary (though a less significant grammatical component), Esperanto
(which is clearly not neutral but rather Romance-biased in ITS vocabulary)
might be a logical choice. It certainly has a "simple" grammar (though any
glance at a modern 600-page comprehensive grammar of Esperanto will show
that it no longer has "just 16" grammar rules).

But, on both counts Papiamentu would be a good choice, as it has a
significant Dutch component as well, and as oppsoed to Esperanto at least it
has more native speakers and an actual culture (cuisine included).

IF the English speaker is American, then the door to the biggest (and
closest) prize would have to be Spanish, which (at least until one "hits"
imperfect subjunctives!) is not overwhelming to the English-speaking
learner.

          mwm || U C > || Mike Morgan
===============================
           linguist temporarily at large
soon(?)  @ IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
 ... sometime in THIS incarnation anyway
                     ... inshallah



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 21:53:20 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:53:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.15.SEP.2010.145320.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 15 September 2010 - Volume 05
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (04) [EN]



> From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (01) [EN]
>
> In "response" to Paul's suggestion of Dutch and James' counter
> (wist/hful) suggestion of Esperanto as "foot-in-the-door ((feet-in the
> door??) languages", it all depends which door you are trying to get
> your feet into.


Interesting post, language-wise, comparing Esperanto, Papiamentu &c as
"foot in the door" languages in response to others' suggestions.

The whole idea of a "foot in the door" language seems rather "dead in
the water" to me, however. I think for success in a language you need
interest, motivation, and best of all, if possible, necessity.

If you try to learn a language as an easy stepping-stone to the world of
language-learning, you're choosing your language because it's relatively
easy. But barring special talent, no language is all that easy (at the
very least it takes commitment and consumes much time) and it'll be a
lot easier to learn a language if your motivation is that you _want_ to
or _need_ to, rather than to have an easy life in learning a language
you're not that bothered about really.

"So why are you learning Dutch?"
"Because I want to learn German."

It's nonsense!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 15 23:59:00 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:59:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (06) [EN]
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.14 (01) [EN]



>From Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk



Paul wrote:



"It would be interesting to know if bilingual British people, notably Welsh
and those from immigrant families, are any better with other languages than
native Anglophones."



When I began teaching languages in Holyhead, where there was a high
percentage of bilingual pupils, I was anticipating a marked advantage in
learning among bilingual pupils.



In fact I never saw one. Those pupils however who did take to languages like
a duck to water, were the RAF children from Valley, who in their short 11
years of life had on average lived in 3 different countries (usually
Germany, Hong Kong and UK). They seem to have fewer hangups and appeared
more aware of the existence of languages as entities ( rather than as a
lesson subject!)



About 6 weeks into a new term and Year intake, a local boy came up to me and
asked if one could do in German everything that one could do in English.
When I said of course you could; it's their language just as English or
Welsh is ours, he persisted: "What? You mean anything I can say in English,
can be said in German too? " "Yes, " I replied." Absolutely everything."
Even then he wasn't convinced " Even jokes too!"



I think one of the worst 'adverts' we have had here in the UK over the last
3 decades was the 'push' that said anyone can learn a foreign language.
Don't get me wrong - I believe that implicitly BUT children (and adults)
often interpret that as also saying - it's easy! Anyone can do it!



So when they find it hard / difficult/ slow, they judge themselves as worse
than useless because they had been told 'anyone can do it' and they can't.
So they give up the struggle.



If you turn the tables and tell pupils after 3 years of learning that
actually they are making good progress and they are at the level you expect
them to be at, they will be so self critical: " No I'm not good. I'm
hopeless. I can't say anything I want yet. I thought I'd be pretty fluent
after a few years!"



Once you have convinced pupils that the 15 days they are given to progress
from no knowledge to an A* GCSE over 5 years is a drop in the ocean of time
needed for language learning, they start to see they own efforts as 'pretty
OK'. (The equation of time is roughly : max 2hrs a week for 12 week term =
24 hours per term contact teaching/learning time. 3 terms a year = 3 days
CT/L time; over 5 years = 15 days. If you allow at least 12 hours off per
day, it still only amounts to the equivalent of 30 days. And as only a tiny
percentage of our pupils live in an environment where they will receive any
out of school backup i.e. hear any German or French or Spanish etc, they
have to rely almost entirely on contact teaching / learning. I think we do
quite well here in the UK actually and would only wish that we were not so
continuously compared with the ability of the rest of the world to speak
English. How well does the average Frenchman speak German? Or the average
German French? Or the Italian Dutch? Or the Swede Spanish?  -rant over!



So I would beg the GOvt and all bodies supporting language learning to
change the message to " Any one can do it but it takes time and effort"



Heather

Worcester UK



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 16 15:13:40 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 08:13:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (01) [EN]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (04) [EN]



Agreed on all counts.

A French language teacher I knew told me that most of her pupils would
actually have rather learned Spanish - they were far more likely to go to
Alicante, Barcelona or Ibiza. Of course in Ibiza the locals speak Catalan
anyway, but you get the kids' point.



Paul



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.15 (06) [EN]



All very good points, especially about the perceived "special language
ability" of other countries.  That idea even exists in those countries
sometimes: I Finland a girl was being mildly mocking about the fact that she
could speak English but I knew no Finnish ("English people really struggle
with languages don't you?").  I answered her in Afrikaans. The realisation
was like watching a lightbulb go on.



Paul



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 16 21:51:33 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 14:51:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (02) [AF-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.16.SEP.2010.145133.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (01) [EN]



Paul wrote:

I Finland a girl was being mildly mocking about the fact that she could
speak English but I knew no Finnish ("English people really struggle with
languages don't you?").



On the other hand, when I was first in the Netherlands some 25 years ago and
learning Dutch, many Amsterdam acquaintances' response was: "Why bother? We
all speak English..."

Though, of course, they didn't....

That same response is not uncommon in many countries ... and sometimes as a
field linguist who enjoys learning languages as well, it CAN be
frustrating....

...

>From my current, temporary location back in Japan, it seems that the
"ineptitude" at learning languages that seems to charcterize this country
and the country of my birth is by and large nurture not nature; in America
people by and large are not interested in foreign languages (because we are
"taught" "who needs them?! everyone speaks -- or ought to speak! --
American"), while in Japan much more complicated socio-educational issues
seem to be at play (including the thinking that if you CAN learn a foreign
language then you MUST not be really be Japanese -- or maybe suffer from a
brain defect or gene mutation --, because Japanese brains are actually put
together differently than those of foreigners).

As Sandy said in a posting a few days ago, learning a language is NOT all
about how difficult it is, but rather maybe more about interest and
motivation (though in that context the discussion was about choice of
PARTICULAR languages), and it would also seem that there is an important
element as to whether the society (and therfore the person socialized in
that society) "feels" that learning languageS / being bilingual is
"normal"/"to be expected".

Deaf Japanese are always astonished when it is pointed out to them that the
"average educated" European Deaf person (Finnish say, or Belgian) is
competent in at least 4 languages (Finnish Sign Language, International Sign
and/or some other country's sign language, written Finnish, AND written
English. Not because they MUST (nobody I know of forces Finnish Deaf to
travel abroad), but because it is just "the way things are done". NOT
knowing English doesn't keep Japanese (hearing or Deaf) from traveling
overseas; on the other hand, it seems that the "normalcy" of traveling
overseas (or at least over the Baltic Sea) makes learning English natural
fro Scandinavians (and one expects the same "thinking" applies to most north
Europeans -- south Europeans being maybe a bit more like Americans and
Japanese ... and British)


     mwm || U C > || Mike Morgan
===============================
      linguist temporarily at large
soon(?) @ IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
 ... sometime in THIS incarnation anyway
           ... inshallah



----------



From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (01) [EN]



Dear Paul:



Subject: LL-L "Language learning"



You Wrote:

All very good points, especially about the perceived "special language
ability" of other countries. That idea even exists in those countries
sometimes: I Finland a girl was being mildly mocking about the fact that she
could speak English but I knew no Finnish ("English people really struggle
with languages don't you?"). I answered her in Afrikaans. The realisation
was like watching a lightbulb go on.



Seconded. Good for you, & your Afrikaans! So van die os op die esel, het jy
nie al opgemerk nie hoe die Taal lig werp op veral die oudhede van Engels
(onder ander Dietse tale)? My ondervinding as 'n kind was hoe help Afrikaans
met die spel van Engels, waar die uitspraak van die hedendaagse taal geen
luidraad gee, hoegenaamd. Ek veronderstel natuurlik 'n mate van die einste
voordeel van sommer enige verwante taal in parallel met die wat jy klaar
onder die blad het, maar Afrikaans... dra die eienskap tot 'n merkwaardige
mate.



Ek s? nie Afrikaans moet 'n W?reldwye gemenetaal word nie, en ek wil dit ook
nie h? nie, maar mynsinsiens is dit 'n uitstekende tweede-taal fondament van
'n derde, vierde, en nog meer. Maar, met wederdenke, is nie alle tallleer so
nie?



Nou ja, vir die enkeltaliges in ons geselskap (die skraaaale minderheid)
laat ek in Engels oortolk.



Gesekondeer. Mooi skoot, u en u Afrikaans! Off the ox onto the ass as it
were, have you not noticed how the Taal casts light on particularly the
archaisms of English (among other Anglo-Saxon languages)? My experience as a
child was how Afrikaans helped me with the spelling of English, where the
pronunciation of the language as it is today gives no clue whatever. I
assume naturally a degree of the same advantage with really any related
tongue in parallel with one you already have by heart, but Afrikaans...
carries this quality to a notable degree.



I do not say that Afrikaans should become a Worldwide common language, nor
would I want that, but in my opinion it is an outstanding second-language
foundation for a third, fourth, even more. However on thinking it over isn't
that the case with all language study?



While we're off the subject, when are you denizens of the sceptered
archipelago, that other Eden, that demi-paradise, going to point out to
smarmy foreigners that yours is not a monoglot heritage? Count with me,
English, Scots, Welsh, Gaelic, Erse, Manx (still, I hope), Cornish (I
anticipate), Norman-French (of the Channel Isles), Norn (does it still
exist?), Romany & how much more?



Groete,

Mark.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 17 20:06:19 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:06:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.17 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.17.SEP.2010.130619.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.16 (02) [AF-EN]



Mark points out that societies can be multilingual (and multicultural), and
in fact can be abundantly so while most individuals in that society remain
monolingual.

 Count with me, English, Scots, Welsh, Gaelic, Erse, Manx (still, I hope),
Cornish (I anticipate), Norman-French (of the Channel Isles), Norn (does it
still exist?), Romany & how much more?


Yes, the list COULD go on; to keep to the Finnish theme of this thread, I
will just point out that the US has more Punjabi speakers than Helsinki does
Finnish speakers ;-) ... and the UK's numbers are almost 4 times larger.


          mwm || U C > || Mike Morgan
===============================
           linguist temporarily at large
soon(?)  @ IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
 ... sometime in THIS incarnation anyway
                     ... inshallah



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 18 14:39:54 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:39:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.18 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.18.SEP.2010.073954.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.17 (01) [EN]



> From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>

> Mark points out that societies can be multilingual (and multicultural),
and in fact can be abundantly so while most individuals in that society
remain monolingual.

> Count with me, English, Scots, Welsh, Gaelic, Erse, Manx (still, I hope),
Cornish (I anticipate), Norman-French (of the Channel Isles), Norn (does it
still exist?), Romany & how much more?



Yes, but for prevewing the evolution for the next 2 generations:

- Are there many Welsh speakers who do not understand a single word of
English?

- Are there Welsh parents who do everything for keeping their kids
monolinguistically Welsh?



I think in plurilingual environments the dominant language wins over a
couple of generations, unless for some groups, who organize themselves in
closed societies, as e.g. Amish people, orthodox Ashkenazies etc.



If you can prevent immigrants settling in an isolated Gaelic Island, the
local village variant can continu to be the main vehicular language over
there for generations to come. It is often suficient that just one family
starts behaving "English only" for breaking up the protection.



For strong languages the winning group may initially be a minority as e.g.
the French speakers in Brussels, the English speakers in the Cape Town area.



Regards,

Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 16:18:50 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:18:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.23 (01) [EN]
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"



Beste Lowlanners,



even 20 years after the reunion between East and West Germany still is
splitted in two parts as far as English is concerned:

http://www.zeit.de/2010/36/S-Englisch



In special the (Upper) Saxon pupils with their special, exceptional dialect
seem to have great difficulties to learn English, though the standard of
their schools is aspected to be high in the internal German ranking system.



I would like to know if things are running better in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,
our Hanne's homeland and the most northern province of the former German
Democratic Republic (until A.D. 1990 "Eastern Germany", behind the Iron
Curtain). Is the influence of Low Saxon still strong enough to make it
easier for the people over there to learn English, as it in my youth had
been in comparison between the North and South of (Western-)Germany?



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 18:33:42 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:33:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (02) [NDS]
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From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L  "Etymology" 2010.09.14 (03) [DE]



Leiwe Lowlanders, leiwe Helge,



mien PC un ick wieren krank, von h?t an is wedder Land in Sicht.



Nu heff ick ein Oog in dit Bauk sm?ten:



Institut f?r Niederdeutsche Sprache



PLATTDEUTSCH-HOCHDEUTSCHES W?RTERBUCH



Bearbeitet von Wolfgang Lindow



VERLAG SCHUSTER LEER



*Bloov* (Niederelbe- Raum) s. Bloom



Dat wier't all.

Kannst wat mit anfangen...



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 18:48:49 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:48:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.23 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.23.SEP.2010.114849.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 23 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language learning



Jonny, you wrote:



even 20 years after the reunion between East and West Germany still is
splitted in two parts as far as English is concerned:

http://www.zeit.de/2010/36/S-Englisch



In special the (Upper) Saxon pupils with their special, exceptional dialect
seem to have great difficulties to learn English, though the standard of
their schools is aspected to be high in the internal German ranking system.



I would like to know if things are running better in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,
our Hanne's homeland and the most northern province of the former German
Democratic Republic (until A.D. 1990 "Eastern Germany", behind the Iron
Curtain). Is the influence of Low Saxon still strong enough to make it
easier for the people over there to learn English, as it in my youth had
been in comparison between the North and South of (Western-)Germany?



If in this regard there is indeed a difference between students inside and
outside the original Low-Saxon-speaking area, you first need to find out if
this has anything to do with exposure to Low Saxon specifically or with
bilingualism more generally.

People that already know a language other than their main one, even if they
are not fluent in but are at least exposed to it, tend to have an easier
time learning further languages, including those that are not closely
related to the languages they already knew.

What would be relevant is finding out if students that grew up with Upper
Sorbian have an easier time learning English than do other students in the
state of Saxony. Similarly, it would be interesting to see if all over
Germany those students have an easier time that grew up with Turkish,
Kurdish, Arabic, Farsi and other immigrant languages.

Then, *if* there is indeed something special about students with Low Saxon
background you can move on to seeing if it has anything to do with that
language in particular. Then you would also need to look at North German
students that grew up with Frisian or Danish.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 21:22:50 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:22:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.23 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.23.SEP.2010.142250.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 23 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2010.09.23 (03) [EN]



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language learning

If in this regard there is indeed a difference between students inside and
outside the original Low-Saxon-speaking area, you first need to find out if
this has anything to do with exposure to Low Saxon specifically or with
bilingualism more generally.

People that already know a language other than their main one, even if they
are not fluent in but are at least exposed to it, tend to have an easier
time learning further languages, including those that are not closely
related to the languages they already knew.

What would be relevant is finding out if students that grew up with Upper
Sorbian have an easier time learning English than do other students in the
state of Saxony. Similarly, it would be interesting to see if all over
Germany those students have an easier time that grew up with Turkish,
Kurdish, Arabic, Farsi and other immigrant languages.

Then, *if* there is indeed something special about students with Low Saxon
background you can move on to seeing if it has anything to do with that
language in particular. Then you would also need to look at North German
students that grew up with Frisian or Danish.


The problem with these immigrant languages is, that many of their speakers
come from certain socio-economical environments. The adverse effects of this
most likely outweigh the positive effects of bilingualism.

When I say "certain socio-economical environments" I primarily mean 'working
class' as opposed to 'middle class' or 'white collar'. This is due to the
fact that their parents and grandparents came to Germany as guest workers to
do the jobs the Germans didn't want to do anymore. And as with all
immigrants it takes some time (generations) to blend in and improve
socio-economically. I hope nobody misinterprets this in any *-istic way. I
have to add this disclaimer since the German public opinion recently was
stirred up a bit by statements of politician Thilo Sarrazin which were
turned into a campaign by German tabloid 'Bild' (Germany's most-selling
paper read by about 12.5 million people and the single most relevant
agenda-setter for Germany's public opinion).

Sarrazin wrote a book about how the Germans will go extinct if they don't do
anything about it ("Deutschland schafft sich ab"). He had nice populistic
theses like "I do not want to excuse myself for being German", "German must
be spoken on German schoolyards", "too much young resident aliens are
criminal", "lock away child molesters forever" etc., and in interviews he
offered nice wisdoms with enormous scientific depth like "all Jews share a
gene". 'Bild' advertised his book and praised him for "expressing the
uncomfortable truth" and "being the otherwise unheard voice of the ordinary
Joes on the street". Sarrazin lost his job as a representative of the
Bundesbank, because Bundesbank was worried about their reputation and 'Bild'
tried to spin this suggesting that Sarrazins freedom of opinion was
suppressed (although he wrote a best-selling book and had more media
attention than any other topic over several weeks. [but 'Bild' doesn't care
much about such little selfcontradictions. They don't even see the irony
when they put the headline "Pornography corrupts our children!" in 6cm
letters on the title, when 'Bild' itself has the habit to put what England
calls the "page 3 girl" on the title page. Nota bene: no bras, no bikini
tops.]).

After weeks of debate nothing has changed politically in German. But the
massive media campaign has changed public opinion. The inhibition threshold
for xenophobic comments was lowered. You can now publicly make statements
that were not possible before, which would have lead to a public outcry.

One more remark: The 'Bild' basically _is_ right that the public opinion
shaped mainly by politics and media does not reflect the opinion of many of
the average people. But in this case that's a good thing because the average
people's opinion is based on ignorance and wrong facts (and many of these
wrong facts were spread by the 'Bild').

@Ron: I guess I diverted from the original topic ;-) Feel free to change the
topic for this.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 23 21:24:52 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:24:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (05) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.23.SEP.2010.142452.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 23 September 2010 - Volume 05
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (02) [NDS]



From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L  "Etymology" 2010.09.14 (03) [DE]


Leiwe Lowlanders, leiwe Helge,

mien PC un ick wieren krank, von h?t an is wedder Land in Sicht.

Nu heff ick ein Oog in dit Bauk sm?ten:

Institut f?r Niederdeutsche Sprache

PLATTDEUTSCH-HOCHDEUTSCHES W?RTERBUCH

Bearbeitet von Wolfgang Lindow

VERLAG SCHUSTER LEER

*Bloov* (Niederelbe- Raum) s. Bloom

Dat wier't all.

Kannst wat mit anfangen...



Ik heff ok noch wat funnen: <
http://books.google.de/books?id=FdAdAQAAIAAJ&q=%2Bbloof+blume&dq=%2Bbloof+blume&hl=de&ei=h6mbTPvsJOmL4gbUupBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA
>

Dat schall en Variant von "Bloom" wesen un dor warrt ok noch en poor
Bispelen mehr n??mt, bi de "m" to "f" worrn is.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 24 19:13:57 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:13:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.24.SEP.2010.121357.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 24 September 2010 - Volume 01
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"



Beste Marcus,



You wrote:

Sarrazin wrote a book about how the Germans will go extinct if they don't do
anything about it ("Deutschland schafft sich ab"). He had nice populistic
theses like "I do not want to excuse myself for being German", "German must
be spoken on German schoolyards", "too much young resident aliens are
criminal", "lock away child molesters forever" etc., and in interviews he
offered nice wisdoms with enormous scientific depth like "all Jews share a
gene"



Sarrazin's family name doesn't make himself sound ?ber-German: < Saracens.
Always happens with the "last who got in"...they seem to have these "Apr?s
moi, le d?luge" feelings more than any other.



Boundary value problem for human geographers.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 24 19:16:05 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:16:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.24.SEP.2010.121605.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 24 September 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (05) [NDS]



Beste Hanne, Helge, Marcus,



tou



*Bloov = Bloom:*



Daorbii mutt ick ouk an dat Ingelsche *"to blow"* = 'bl?hen' denken.



Allerbest!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 24 22:44:22 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:44:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.24.SEP.2010.154422.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (05) [NDS]



Veelen Dank, Markus, dat huelp een beten, sodenni is "bloof' wat neetmodsch,
dat kan wul ween! Spraak blief sik nuems lik, dat veraennert sik, as alens
annere ok.

Un wenn ik sowat lees vun Herrn Sarrazin oder Herrn Wilders, wenn de sik
beklaagt oever de paar kinner de op'n schoolhof ni duetsch snack, wat schall
dat? Un wat passeert as de kinner plattduetsch oder friisk op'n schoolhof
snack? Dat doerf denn ja ok ni, blot hochduetsch un nix anners. Un wat
schoellt wi seggen daaroever dat ons plattduetsch un friisk meist garni meer
hoert ward in ons eegen region? Un wat schoellt de amerikanischen Indianers
seggen daaroever woneem sik de Europaeer bi eer breed mok hebb oone dat se
ok blot een wort amerikansch Indiansch leert heb? Wi Europaeer heb doch vun
all dat schlechste bispeel foer immigration un integration geven, wi moet
heelsch lisen ween wenn wi oever anpassen, immigration un integration
snacken. Wi heb de Aboriginies as dieren behannelt, wi heb de Afrikaners
versklaaft un na Amerika send un daar heb wi all mitmaak, of nu
Sleswig-Holstener, Engelschen, Nederlander, Daen, Spanier,.... wi moet uns
wat schaemen, wi heb no wat good to maken, ni de immigranten de na Europa
kuemmt. Awer dat woellt de herrn Sarrazin, Wilders, Dewinter, Fru
Kjaersgaard, Le Pen un waa se all heten ni waar hebben.

Leeve Groeten, Helge



----------



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (02) [NDS]



From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.23 (05) [NDS]

*
*

*Bloov = Bloom:*

Daorbii mutt ick ouk an dat Ingelsche *"to blow"* = 'bl?hen' denken.


EN "to blow"/NL "bloeien"/DE "bl?hen"/NDS "bl?hn" s?nd von de Etymologie her
dats?lve Woord. Geiht tr?gg op "bl?wan"/"bl?jan". De eerste S?lv "bl?" kummt
ok in NDS "Bloom"/NL "bloem", DE "Blume", EN "bloom" v?r ("bl?" + "ma"
[substantivisch Suffix]). De eerste S?lv in "Bloof" kummt dor ok von. De
Fraag is man blot: is dat Woord oold un mit en anner substantivisch Suffix
billt oder is dat Woord jung un blot ut "Bloom" ?mmuddelt? Villicht ?ver den
Plural? Dat Woord "baven" warrt faken "bobm" oder "b?m" utspraken un
"hebben" faken "hebm" oder "hemm". Ok de Plural von "Bloom" warrt faken ahn
"n" un mit "m" utspraken: "Blom'm". Villicht hebbt se dat as "Bloven"
reanalyseert, wat j?st so utspraken warrt? Von de Theorie her m??glich,
h??rt aver veel Gewalt to, dat Woord so dull to verb?gen... Wat is denn de
Plural von "Bloov"???

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 24 23:06:49 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:06:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.09.24 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.24.SEP.2010.160649.0700.>

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 24 September 2010 - Volume 04
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (01) [EN]



From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"

You wrote:

Sarrazin wrote a book about how the Germans will go extinct if they don't do
anything about it ("Deutschland schafft sich ab"). He had nice populistic
theses like "I do not want to excuse myself for being German", "German must
be spoken on German schoolyards", "too much young resident aliens are
criminal", "lock away child molesters forever" etc., and in interviews he
offered nice wisdoms with enormous scientific depth like "all Jews share a
gene"


Sarrazin's family name doesn't make himself sound ?ber-German: < Saracens.
Always happens with the "last who got in"...they seem to have these "Apr?s
moi, le d?luge" feelings more than any other.


Boundary value problem for human geographers.


Sarrazin has Huguenot roots. That means his family is in Germany for more
than 300 years. And if you would confront him with his foreign roots he'd
take it as acknowledgement of his arguments ;-) He's not an outright racist.
He's more focused on culture like "assimilate or stay away from Germany".
(Although he sometimes resorts to arguments that are hard to interpret in a
non-racist way.) So he'd take his own French (and possible Saracen) roots as
a positive story of assimilation (the euphemism "integration" is used when
"assimilation" is meant in Germany's public discussion).

Interestingly enough Sarrazin is a member of SPD, the Social Democratic
Party, not CDU, the Christian Democratic Union and more conservative party,
or any of the right-wing parties.

The discussions around Sarrazin are also interesting in another respect: the
total ignorance of the German public for their autochthonous minorities. You
would think that in a nation-wide discussion about language, culture and
integration the perspective of the native minorities like Sorbians,
Frisians, Romany, Low Saxons, and the Danish would be relevant and part of
the discussion. But it doesn't happen. Nobody mentioned them anywhere.
Sarrazin did not, the 'Bild' did not, none of the more respectable
newspapers did it, none of the big TV stations, none of the politicians that
commented the situation. Nobody did. Most worryingly not even the
representatives of the minorities themselves tried to give their
perspective. It seems everybody accepts their gradual vanishing and not even
the organized language activists develop enough energy to even say "Hey
there, we do exist!" when somebody proclaims that Germany should be
German-only. It's sad and it's the certain path to extinction. I should
write a book about it! It certainly will sell 650,000 copies ;-) "De
Plattd??tschen schafft sik s?lms af".

Marcus Buck


----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:Language politics

Marcus, might fear of seeming disloyal play a role in the silence,
especially in the Low Saxon community which has pretty much lost its
separate ethnic identity?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: OK, everyone. Let me remind you to keep topics apart.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 25 14:30:11 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 07:30:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.25 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.25.SEP.2010.073011.0700.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics"



Beste Marcus,



On 25/09/10, at 01:06, Lowlands-L List wrote:



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.24 (01) [EN]



From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language learning"

You wrote:

Sarrazin wrote a book about how the Germans will go extinct if they don't do
anything about it ("Deutschland schafft sich ab"). He had nice populistic
theses like "I do not want to excuse myself for being German", "German must
be spoken on German schoolyards", "too much young resident aliens are
criminal", "lock away child molesters forever" etc., and in interviews he
offered nice wisdoms with enormous scientific depth like "all Jews share a
gene"


Sarrazin's family name doesn't make himself sound ?ber-German: < Saracens.
Always happens with the "last who got in"...they seem to have these "Apr?s
moi, le d?luge" feelings more than any other.


Boundary value problem for human geographers.


Sarrazin has Huguenot roots. That means his family is in Germany for more
than 300 years. And if you would confront him with his foreign roots he'd
take it as acknowledgement of his arguments ;-)



Not valid.



a) Huguenots often occupied important positions in French society before
their exodus.

b) They fled to places that were either also Reformed or where religion was
not an issue.



Under these conditions of course, Huguenots were pretty welcome back in
those days (in Germany/Prussia).



I don't know precisely what Mr. Sarrazin's opinion is about present-day
migrants (or minority people) in Germany, but I'm quite sure you cannot
compare the situation because,



a) said population is often not rich and powerful

b) they frequently have a non-Christian religious background

 He's not an outright racist.



Of course not, times have changed. Even obstinate guys have learned a thing
or two from the past. The message has been revamped.

 He's more focused on culture like "assimilate or stay away from Germany".
(Although he sometimes resorts to arguments that are hard to interpret in a
non-racist way.) So he'd take his own French (and possible Saracen) roots as
a positive story of assimilation (the euphemism "integration" is used when
"assimilation" is meant in Germany's public discussion).



See above. Plus, using personal arguments as overall justification for
national measures is hardly professional.



Besides, regarding "assimilation", official language in Dutch Reformed
"Waalse Kerken" is still French.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 26 19:59:40 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 12:59:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.26 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.125940.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 26 September 2010 - Volume 01
*lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Dear Lowlanders,

In today?s *Newsweek* there is an interesting article by Joel Kotkin about
?the new world order? in which traditional alliances play more important
roles than do political borders.

Among these alliances he mentions this:



New Hansa

Denmark, Finland, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden

 In the 13th century, an alliance of Northern European towns called the
Hanseatic League created what historian Fernand Braudel called a ?common
civilization created by trading.? Today?s expanded list of Hansa states
share Germanic cultural roots, and they have found their niche by selling
high-value goods to developed nations, as well as to burgeoning markets in
Russia, China, and India. Widely admired for their generous welfare systems,
most of these countries have liberalized their economies in recent years.
They account for six of the top eight countries on the Legatum Prosperity
Index and boast some of the world?s highest savings rates (25 percent or
more), as well as impressive levels of employment, education, and
technological innovation.

[http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/26/the-new-world-order-a-map.html]


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------



From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>

Subject: History



I thought you might like this entry from this dictionary:
"Holsteinisches Idiotikon
von Johann Friedrich Sch?tze
K?nigl. D?n. Kanzlei-Sekretraire
Altona 1806"

Entry "Setten":

"Setten (D?n. saette): setzen
Sade: Stille Ruhe. Richey macht es gegen Gramm der dies Wort vom Angs.
Sida D?n. S?der Sitten ableiten will,
wahrscheinlicher, da? es von Sate:Sitz abstamme.
B.W.B. Daher Saten, Undersaten: Sassen Eingesessene, Unterthanen,
der urspr?ngliche Name unsrer Vorahnen, die an der Elbseite ihren Sitz
hatten,
die sich nach demselben Angelsaten, Holsaten, Wurtsaten unterschieden.
Das Wort Sachsen ist blo? durch Oberl?nder aus jenem Worte gebildet.
(Wolke Eingedichte Lpz. 1804. S.10)"

Till today I never came across the idea to base "Sassen" on the word
"to sit". Any comments?

By the way;
Who was Richey and who was Gramm and what does the abbreviation "B.W.B."
mean?

The "Idiotikon" was published 204 years ago. History is fun. Times
change and opinions about history changes.

Which reminds me of this story:
When I was in New Zealand (I arrived there on 9/11/2001), I bought a
book that was published in 1914:
the last volume of "Harvard Classics" with the title "lectures". It
contains several introductions into different fields of study as the
whole of "Harvard Classics" was supposed to enable anyone who cared
about education to do that at home in his sparetime.

What caught my attention was the introduction into history, which is
digitized in http://www.bartleby.com/60/101.html
Starting in Greece he works forward over Rome Renaissance etc. till he
comes to the last two pages of his 50 page essay, stating

" In 1859 France helped the House of Savoy to drive Austria from the
valley of the Po, and thereby cleared the way for the liberation and
fusion of all Italy by Cavour and Garibaldi. In 1866 Prussia expelled
the House of Hapsburg from Germany, and four years later consolidated
her work by marching to the walls of Paris at the head of a united
German host which there acclaimed William of Hohenzollern chief of a
new Germanic empire.

What has happened since then, and chiefly the scramble for colonies or
for establishing economic suzerainty, belongs more to the field of
present politics than of history. For that reason it may be left out
of account. And so indeed has much else been left out of account for
which the limit of space fixed for this essay has proved altogether
too narrow. If a last word may be added to help the reader to gather
in the harvest from that trampled and mutilated field which we call
history let it be this, that everything turns on a point of view, on a
mental attitude. The reader is the spectator of the pageant; he must
be cool to judge and discriminate, with no bias toward praise or
blame, content merely to observe as the constant stream unfolds itself
in all its changing colors, but with a mind ready to judge human
actions and motives, an imagination ready to seize on the ever-living
drama of fact, and a heart ready to respond to those countless acts of
heroism that have ennobled great men and great races, and with them
all humanity."

So in 1914 this history teacher declined to comment anything later
than 1870, to him all that was not yet history.

Heiko Evermann
Hamburg



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 26 20:04:52 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 13:04:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.130452.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 26 September 2010 - Volume 02
*lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: De Wachter is Dood.

De wachter is dood.

De huusst?e,

onbewaakt.

Rouw,

druppeld deur de veinsters

en leg zich dale,

veur de heerd.

Daor,

waor hij de leste tied,

zo g?ern lag.



Wij hebben Waldo vanmiddag om 17.00 uur in laten slapen

Waldo is een Berner Senner en hij is elf jaor old ew?rden.



Arend en Jettie.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 26 20:50:12 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 13:50:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.26 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.135012.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 26 September 2010 - Volume 03
*lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.09.26 (01) [DE-EN]


From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>

Subject: History



I thought you might like this entry from this dictionary:
"Holsteinisches Idiotikon
von Johann Friedrich Sch?tze
K?nigl. D?n. Kanzlei-Sekretraire
Altona 1806"

Entry "Setten":

"Setten (D?n. saette): setzen
Sade: Stille Ruhe. Richey macht es gegen Gramm der dies Wort vom Angs.
Sida D?n. S?der Sitten ableiten will,
wahrscheinlicher, da? es von Sate:Sitz abstamme.
B.W.B. Daher Saten, Undersaten: Sassen Eingesessene, Unterthanen,
der urspr?ngliche Name unsrer Vorahnen, die an der Elbseite ihren Sitz
hatten,
die sich nach demselben Angelsaten, Holsaten, Wurtsaten unterschieden.
Das Wort Sachsen ist blo? durch Oberl?nder aus jenem Worte gebildet.
(Wolke Eingedichte Lpz. 1804. S.10)"

Till today I never came across the idea to base "Sassen" on the word
"to sit". Any comments?

By the way;
Who was Richey and who was Gramm and what does the abbreviation "B.W.B."
mean?



Richey is the author of the 1755 "Idioticon Hamburgense". Gramm is the
Danish philologist and historian Hans Gram. BWB most likely means "(Versuch
eines) Bremisch-Nieders?chsischen W?rterbuchs" from 1767.

The etymology of "Sachsen" being derived from "Saten" is wrong. Sch?tze is
correct that "Holstein" and "Wursten" are derived from "Holtsaten" and
"Wurtsaten", but "Angelsaten" is a wrong analogy. The Saxons have their name
from the "sahs", a type of knife. That makes perfect sense from an
etymological point of view. Compare for "fohs" which developed into "fox" in
English, "Foss" in Low Saxon and "Fuchs" in German. The same with "sahson".
"Saxon" in English, "Sassen" in Low Saxon and "Sachsen" in German. It is
plain impossible that "Sachsen/Sassen/Saxon" is derived from "Saten". If
"Saten" was the etymological source we would have to assume that the Saxons
loaned their own name from High German and then High German again loaned the
name from the Saxons and applied the second Germanic sound shift a second
time. And all this must have happened 700 years before the time the second
Germanic sound shift according to scientific believe happened, because the
Romans already used the term "Saxon".

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 27 00:39:41 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:39:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.173941.0700.>

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 26 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (02) [NDS]

Beste Arend,



eyn Deert is eyn Deert; eyn Waldo blivvt eyn Waldo! Dat s?lbige hebb ick all
s?ben Maol mit maokt. R.I.P., Waldo, but - don't try to become a real
human.... Men and dogs always should be looked upon apart; surely they both
have got souls, but I'm sure of slightly different types!



Wokeyn sick een Berner-Senner tou Huusdeyrt maokt, mutt ouk weyten, watt
sou'n "Hondje" ne' lang leevt. *Miin* Koyters waard meerstendeyls 14 Jaohrn
ould, mennigmaol 17 - net sou groud as 'n Bernersenn.



Allerbest; 't Is man 'n Deert!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz HanneHinz at t-online.de

Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (02) [NDS]



Lieber Arend,



ich f?hle mit deinen Lieben. Es ist ein schwerer Verlust. Eine Freundschaft
zwischen Mensch und Tier ist eine wunderbare Beziehung

und zugleich die engste Bindung, die mit Treue und Liebe vom Hund bereichert
wird. Insbesondere der Berner Senner z?hlt zu den

zuverl?ssigen Hunden. Nun endete m.E. sein Leben viel zu fr?h. Du hast dem
Tier eine sch?ne Zeit geschenkt und immer ein dankbares Wesen

um euch gehabt. Ihr werdet ihn immer vermissen und besonders auch die
Enkelkinder. Nun braucht ihr Zeit der Besinnung.

Wer nie ein Tier besa?, kann diesen Verlust vielleicht nicht so tief
nachf?hlen.



Der Hund ist der einzige Freund, den man sich f?r Geld kaufen kann. *Kurt
Tucholsky*



Herzlich.



Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 27 01:26:39 2010
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:26:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (04) [NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.26.SEP.2010.182639.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Members' news" 2010.09.26 (02) [NDS]

To Arend en Jettie. Re: De Wachter is Dood.



Mijn hart gaat naar jullie uit. Hoe leeg het huis, je leven, nu moet zijn.
En Arend, bedankt voor het feit dat je je gevoelens in dat gedicht hebt
kunnen uitbeelden.

Houd elkander vast. Jacqueline



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