From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar  1 17:16:53 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 09:16:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.03.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.MAR.2011.091653.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 March 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in March of 2011!



First of all, welcome to those of you that joined us since the beginning of
the February 2011!


*United States of America*:
      California:
            Pasadena [1]
      Texas:
            Sumner [1]
      Washington:
            Tacoma [1]

 Before I get to regular list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:



*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*List Mail v Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List. For
administrative purposes, it's best if you use lowlands.list at gmail.com.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ([ ]). This indicates which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities:



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L. (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.
*Many of you are still not following this rule.

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are visible only to
subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward and
participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your view
mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do something
in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides, we
will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not getting and doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up your
own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is not
an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name, even
if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please!

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


*Edit quotes:* If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published version.
It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are relevant to
your response.


*Give credit:* Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If
you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as
the author. That simply will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.



*Sign off:* If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving us
the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address and your name.



*Temporary Absence*

   - Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
   arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
   lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be
   stopped and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can
   attest, this has been working really well. It certainly beats the old, crude
   method of signing off and on again.
   - Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice.
   Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out"
   for some infraction or other. (I know this for sure only about those that
   contact me. But it happens again and again and involves even the nicest,
   best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have
   received prior reprimands and warnings (which happen very rarely, have not
   happened at all for well over two years). If you find yourself disconnected
   from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has
   unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because your
   mail servers keep informing the list server that you cannot be reached or is
   filled above quota. Most of the time this is due to temporary disconnection.
   - Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
   filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
   mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes.
   - So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam"
   filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem
   if all of the above fails.
   - Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an
   application. I'll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
sassisch at yahoo.com



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 20:36:19 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 12:36:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Memorization" 2011.03.07 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.123619.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 February 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by the frequent use of the structure [[numeral] different
[noun pl]] in English and the equivalent German structure [[numeral] *
verschiedene* [noun pl]].

The use of “different” (or *verschiedene*) with numerals seems justified if
it emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.

* She baked three different cakes.
  (= She baked three different types of cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five different occasions.



Why do people insist on using this structure? Is it to emphasize the number?
What are your opinions on this?



Is this structure used in other Lowlands languages?

Thanks!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 20:37:02 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 12:37:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.123702.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 February 2011 - Volume 02
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by the frequent use of the structure [[numeral] different
[noun pl]] in English and the equivalent German structure [[numeral] *
verschiedene* [noun pl]].

The use of “different” (or *verschiedene*) with numerals seems justified if
it emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.

* She baked three different cakes.
  (= She baked three different types of cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five different occasions.



Why do people insist on using this structure? Is it to emphasize the number?
What are your opinions on this?



Is this structure used in other Lowlands languages?

Thanks!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 22:44:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:44:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.144443.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 February 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Memorization" 2011.03.07 (01) [EN]



Ron asked: “Why do people insist on using this structure? Is it to emphasize
the number? What are your opinions on this?”

I think it emphasizes the fact that the items are of one class of things
(cake, language), but they are different. At least that’s how I understand
it as a native speaker. I could easily say, “She baked three cakes,” and of
course the cakes are different. But, when I add “different” I’m emphasizing
that they aren’t the same. For example, I can imagine saying, “She baked
three different chocolate cakes.” By that I would mean, they’re all
chocolate, but different kinds of chocolate. I don’t feel that it’s
emphasizing the number, but rather the difference.

Mark Brooks



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Thanks, Mark. Good point.

But what about the now frequent colloquial use of “different” where it is
redundant?

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five different occasions.



Regards,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 22:55:52 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:55:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.145552.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 February 2011 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Memorization"



Beste Ron,



You wrote:

Why do people insist on using this structure? Is it to emphasize the number?
What are your opinions on this?



People use fuzzy logic I think. Four different languages, like in the case
of Switzerland, means those languages are very different, not dialects of
one and the same "Dachsprache", not mutually intelligible either. Strictly
speaking, every language is indeed different from any other one, but some
people try to think "positive, forgiving and inclusive", as long as the
difference is not that big. Say, on a local level, Estuary English is indeed
different from Kentish, but on a higher level, viewed from a distance, they
may be perceived as one, both just being termed, "English".



Is this structure used in other Lowlands languages?



Definitely. Brabantish has "tefrent" (< different (F)) and "verschië,
verschillige" for "verscheidene, verschillende" (D).



I think it makes sense to wonder if anything at all can ever be fully equal
to anything else. At least one property will always differ I think. If two
objects look perfectly alike, they will still occupy a different place,
making their location different. Even if they occupy the same space (bit
hard to imagine in plain 3D), their history may be different. One way or
another, there is always a minor difference. Following that line of thought,
you could dump the word "different" altogether, only using the term "same",
if you want to describe that two objects have a certain feature in common. I
doubt whether the human mind would be comfortable with that minimalist
approach though.



There seem to be two tendencies that sort of contradict each other: a call
for diversity on the one hand (languages, species), and an urge for purism
on the other. Makes me think of an article I read last week:



Te veel keus maakt singles eenzaam - Wetenschap - Nieuws -
Knack.be<http://knack.rnews.be/nl/actualiteit/nieuws/wetenschap/te-veel-keus-maakt-singles-eenzaam/article-1194961588528.htm>



Given a limited amount of time, singles had the opportunity to find a date
(so called speeddating). The result was that those that were given a huge
number of potential partners ultimately found far fewer dates than those
that had received but few. "Die Qual der Wahl", in German ;=) Diversity is
intrinsically OK, but a bewildering array of options merely baffles people.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 23:57:45 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 15:57:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.155745.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 February 2011 - Volume 04
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



The word “separate” can sometimes be used the same way.



- I spoke with him on five separate occasions.



Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, MD



----------



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



But the languages *are* different! There *is* reason for a quiet little
expression of astonishment at the four languages of Switzerland. Who will
grudge this little by-word of wonder? And maybe the four occasions when you
"spoke with him" were different as well? Not four times the same occasion?
Each one remarkable in itself? I see no problem with this use of words. It
surely emphasizes the complexity, often heaviness, of how things go on ("I
had to speak to four different people to get four different
forms/stamps/permissions...", just think of german bureaucracy!), but things
*are* complex, and there ist difference everywhere. I think difference is
rather underrepresented generally. I don't mind to have it a little
overrepresented now and then.



Hartlich!



Marlou



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



But what about the now frequent colloquial use of “different” where it is
redundant?



* There are four different languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five different occasions.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Thanks, Kevin and Marlou.

Nice point about “separate” in place of “different,” Kevin.

In any case, in terms of grammar at least, it should be possible to
formulate the opposites thusly:



* There are four identical languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five identical occasions.



The first seems quite ungrammatical to me. As Luc already mentioned, where
you have more than one language there is diversity.

It would be different if you said:

* There are four very different languages in Switzerland.
  (This would be understood as "of very different types/genealogies.")

"I spoke with him on five identical occasions" seems marginally grammatical,
albeit awkward, to me in that it could denote “same kinds of occasions.”

Consider further examples randomly picked off the Internet:

* Three Different Directions
  (<> Three Identical Directions?)
  www.threedifferentdirections.com/

* Five Different Reasons to Ride a Bicycle
  (<> Five Identical Reasons to Ride a Bicycle?)
  www.bicyclinglife.com/newsandviews/5_Different_Reasons.htm

* Ten different expressions
  (<> Ten identical expressions?)
  www.thehindu.com › Arts › Art

It seems to me that the “gratuitous” use of “different” with numbers
represents a transition into idiomatic form.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar  8 03:06:56 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:06:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.07 (5) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.190656.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 February 2011 - Volume 05
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Lowlanders,

Just want to inform you about a tradition that hasn't received any attention
until now...as far as I know.

Most of you will be familiar with something that Americans call "prom
night", an event where high school students are organising a ball, dressed
in formal attire. This is a so-called "galabal" in my neck of the woods,
happening usually at the very end of the school year.

What may set the (Southern) Lowlands apart is our "Chrysostomos party". One
hundred days before graduation, 12th grade students hand over a symbolic key
to 11th graders. Relations within school are turned upside down for a day
(chaos and masks, reminiscent of carnival), teachers are parodied,
classrooms are "redecorated" and some get an award (best dressed
student/teacher, smartest, most attractive...). Got one this year myself
btw...not telling ;=)P

In Flanders, it's called "100 dagen" (Mak Π 100 in Italy), in the East,
we're talking about "Chrysostomos". Chrysostom was an early Christian church
father, well known for his eloquence. The guy grew up in modern-day Turkey
(just like Saint Nicholas) and was considered patron of "Retorica", name of
the final class of the traditional Latin-Greek education system (11th grade
was Poësis, in use till the mid eighties of last century).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar  8 18:14:10 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:14:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.8.MAR.2011.101410.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 08 March - Volume 01
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From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Grammer" [EN-AF]



Beste Laaglanders,



Ron wrote:

The use of “different” (or verschiedene) with numerals seems justified if it
emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.

* She baked three different cakes.

  (= She baked three different types of cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.



First of all, most Afrikaans speakers from all walks of life will say:

* Sy het drie verskillende koeke gebak.

* Daar is twaalf verskillende (inheemse) tale in Suid Afrika.



Secondly, the use of different ("verskillend") involves an unspoken habit
(convention): no categorisation is implied. Should we say:

There are four types of languages in South Africa.

"Daar is vier soorte tale in Suid Afrika".

the majority Afrikaans speakers will understand that it refers to the (1)
Xhoisan, (2) European, (3) Banthu and (4) Asian languages.



Only a few people, even in the hey-days of Apartheid (separatism) would say:

There are twelve separate languages in South Africa.

"Daar is twaalf aparte (afsonderlike) tale in Suid Afrika".



Please note that i only describe MY observations. I will not offer
explanations for these observations.



Mooi loop

At de Lange



----------



From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (04) [EN]



I think maybe Kevin hit on WHY different is used even where it would not
make sense (and I disagree slightly with Ron; I think it is an issue of
semantics  NOT grammaticality)


> The word “separate” can sometimes be used the same way.
> - I spoke with him on five separate occasions.



I think (perhaps) there has been a confusion/conflation of "different" and
"separate"... and so "different" has come, in the colloquial at least, to be
used where only "separate" makes "sense".

 mwm || U C > || mike || мика  || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)
===========================================================
Senior Consultant
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
===========================================================

"I have become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



"I spoke to him on five different occasions" would imply, to me, that they
weren't all on the same day, or in the same context.  It might typically be
followed by "and he still did nothing about it".  It provides an
emphasis (and in this case, stronger criticism) than "..on five occasions"
would.



Paul



----------



From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



Ron asked: “But what about the now frequent colloquial use of “different”
where it is redundant?”



I meant to include that usage as well. Four languages in Switzerland
certainly are different without having to say so, but I understand the word
“different,” redundant tho it is, to intensify or call out, so to speak,
their distinctions.



Mark Brooks



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar  8 22:32:23 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 14:32:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.08 (02) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.8.MAR.2011.143223.0800.>

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Liebe Lowlanders,

ich habe hier schon lange nicht mehr geschrieben, aber weil jetzt (noch)
Karneval ist, habe ich mir im www Karnevalslieder angehört und bin auf
dieses Lied gestoßen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXIi-R5MFtY

Es ist offensichtlich so was wie die Hymne ("Volkslied") von Kerkrade und
wurde diese Aufführung auch nicht im Karneval gemacht. Ich habe es in
(hoch)deutscher Rechtschreibung aufgeschrieben. Die niederländische findet
sich hier:

http://www.justsomelyrics.com/411048/Kirchroatsjer-Artiesten-'t-Sjunste-%C3%93p-De-Welt-(Os-Kirchroa)-Lyrics<http://www.justsomelyrics.com/411048/Kirchroatsjer-Artiesten-%27t-Sjunste-%C3%93p-De-Welt-%28Os-Kirchroa%29-Lyrics>

Diese Varietät ist sowohl Niederländisch als auch Deutsch, man kann keine
eindeutige Zuordnung machen.

Viel Vergnügen!

Et schönste op der Welt

Et schönste op der Welt, wat der Herrjott/-jod hat jema(ch)t,
dat is us Kirchroa, wenn et singt en(d) lacht.
Sünd/sind bower us ooch de Wolke all ens/ins jrau/grau,
da dünt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.
Sünd/sind bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da(r) dünt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.

Trückt/trüzt me(n) dürch de Welt wiet, över Land of Sie
en(d) sieht me(n) dann ens äwe/eeve sing He-imetstadt adi(e).
Hat me(n) dann jesie wie schön de Welt ooch is
dann we-ist me(n) ze verzelle end dink janz jewiss:

Et schönste op der Welt, wat der Herrjott hat jema(ch)t,
dat is us Kirchroa, wenn et singt end lacht.
Sünd bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da dünt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.
Sünd bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da dünt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.

Do woar ens/öns e Plätzsche, wo mi Wiegje stung,
wo ich de irste Schreie in’t Läwe jung(?).
Do will ich ümmer bliewe, mi jantse Läwe lang
end ümmer blief ich sage/saje mit Musik end Jesang

Et schönste op der Welt, wat der Herrjott hat jemaat,
dat is us Kirchroa, wenn et singt end lacht.
Sünd bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da dünt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.
Sünd bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da dünt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.

(Zugabe)



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tradition



Thanks, Karl-Heinz!

I understand the language variety is Ripuarian Frankish. It is the
predominant language variety used in a town that straddles the border
between Netherlands Limburg and the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia:

Ripuarian: Kirchroa
Limburgish: Kirchroa, Kèrkrao(j)
Dutch: Kerkrade
German: NL Kirchrath, Kerkrade, DE Herzogenrath

The two officially separate towns together make up the European Model
Community Eurode.

This Ripuarian Frankish variety has a lot in common with the Limburgish, the
Low Rhenish and the Cleves-Bergisch varieties. But while these, like Dutch
and Afrikaans, are counted as Low Frankish (and thus belong to the Lowlands
focus), Ripuarian is counted as Central Frankish (and is thus just outside
this focus).



Intro with map: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ripoaresch-info.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 21:09:30 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:09:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.130930.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]



Dear Ron & Co.



*Subject:* LL-L "Grammar"



Ron wrote:



The use of “different” (or verschiedene) with numerals seems justified if it
emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.



* She baked three different cakes.  (= She baked three different types of
cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.



As At has pointed out, the same usage is manifest in Afrikaans, tho' we are
not limited to only one term of distinction, as for 'different' in English:
Verskillende, verskeie, ens.



Ron, I know some purists of language have long taken against redundancies;
however superficial exposure to almost any language shows an abundance of
the same. I believe certain redundancies are necessary to effective
communication. For example, ambient noise may momentarily block out the
single negative in an English sentence, or even worse, German, totally
altering or even reversing the meaning. Afrikaans & French with 'nie - nie'
& ne - pas & ne - rian' both are one up on English & German on that account.
Just a tad nearer to your example is the Afrikaans way of itemising for
example livestock by number, as in 'drie honderd stucks beeste' = 'three
hundred (items of) cattle'. Now also for 'drie verskillende oplossings' &c.



In all three examples the construction presents extra data supplementing
without altering the content of the message. If for any reason coms
are interrupted the data captured may offer more in the way of recovering
the complete communication: All to the good. Another point to bear in mind,
such constructions formalise the word-order (in an analytic language) giving
warning of specific information to follow - very important.



These redundancies, I am sure you will agree, are different in kind more
than degree to others, for example; 'The Thompsons have had a pair of
twins!' & 'I ain't done noth'n!' The former is an example of a simple
unnecessary redundancy, contributes nothing to lucidity, & in some extreme
cases actually need to be worked out.  The latter is of course simply
internally contradictory. Purists are justified in their hostility to the
same.



Yrs,

Mark



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (01) [EN]

Leiw' Lowlanners,

nah de grote Diskeschoon (Utspraak) tau dis'Saak heff ick mi noch 'n eins 'n
Kopp makt, also nahdacht.

Sie *buk *Kuchen.

*Präteritum*/Aktiv/ Indikativ: ich buk - du bukst -  er/sie/es buk - wir
buken - ihr bukt - sie buken.

Nu mien Fraag: woans künn man dit up nedderdüütsch henbögen, konjugieren.

De Plattsnackers seggen mihrstensdeils leiwer: *ick heff Kauken backt*, denn
* ick backte Kauken *is hier nich so begäng. Dat is oewerhaupt so ein
Eigenoort, dat de Plattüütschen väl *ick heff *usw. seggen.

Dit wüür mi mal verlangen.

Ick heff gistern an'n Frugensdag  as Fru för Frugens up de Treckfiedel
upspält, sei harden mi anglesiert (engagiert).

Hartlich.

Hanne



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tradition



Beste Hanne,

Na mien Dinken is NDS “backen” swack, nich stark as *backen* in’t Düütsche:

Nutied: ik back, du backst, he backt, wi backt ~ backen

Verlẹdene Tied: ik back, du backst, he back, wi backen
Afslatene Tied: ik heff backt, du hest backt, he hett backt, wi hebbt backt



Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 21:12:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:12:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.09 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.131201.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.07 (5) [EN]



Alas Australia has adopted this tradition from its US origins.

Even crazier they adopted the silly English Upper Class practice of Debutant
Balls where young girls are presented to some

local man of minor significance. All girls wore white gowns and were
escorted by a handsome male to the podium where they curtsied

to the Big Kahuna.



While this latter practice is dying out in the cities in direct proportion
to the influx of non-English immigrants it still goes on

in rural areas with a local politician being the "lucky" fellah.

In Britain we merely had a school dance.



On 08/03/2011, at 1:06 PM, Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com> wrote:



Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Lowlanders,

Just want to inform you about a tradition that hasn't received any attention
until now...as far as I know.

Most of you will be familiar with something that Americans call "prom
night", an event where high school students are organising a ball, dressed
in formal attire. This is a so-called "galabal" in my neck of the woods,
happening usually at the very end of the school year.



Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized.
–Albert Einstein



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 21:19:03 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:19:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.09 (03) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.131903.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 03
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>
Subject: Vokabular: Tölpel



Leve Lüüd,

Beim Lesen von
 Peter Strathmann "Die Vogelbezeichnungen im Niederdeutschen
Schleswig-Holsteins und Mecklenburgs" bin ich in Band 2, Kapitel 4.7
"Tölpel (Sulidae)" S. 28 auf diesen Text gestoßen:
"Für den Baßtölpel finden sich im Wortschatz des SHWb wie des MbWb
keinerlei Bezeichnungen, allerdings deutet eine Bezeichnung
föfr.-amrfr. dööskopp für diesen Vogel, die nur aus dem
Niederdeutschen entlehnt sein kann, darauf hin, daß hier eine
Vogelbezeichnung nd. *Dö,skopp (Anm: ö mit Haken) anzunehmen ist;
aufgrund ihrer Marginalität könnte sie allerdings den Sammlungen für
das SHWb entgangen sein. Und in der Tat findet sich im Wortschatz des
MbWb eine Bezeichnung Doeskopp für einen "Vogel, der an der Nordküste
von Südamerika vorkommt und ungefähr die Größe eines Storches hat".
Die diesem Wörterbucheintrag zugrundeliegende Originalquelle nennt als
Ort des Vorkommens Trinidad und enthält zusätzlich die Information,
daß man den Vogel offenbar mit den Händen fassen kann.
...
Nd. Doeskopp bezeichnet zunächst also eine oder mehrere der tropischen
Tölpelarten und geht dann schon im Niederdeutschen oder spätestens im
Nordfriesischen auf den nordatlantischen Baßtölpel über
...
Der Nachweis der Bezeichnung im dieser Untersuchung zugrundeliegenden
Korpus unterstreicht trotz der Randständigkeit maritimen Wortgutes die
verhältnismäßig größere Bedeutung der Seefahrt auf südlichen gegenüber
nördlichen Meeren für die niederdeutsche Sprechergemeinschaft
Schleswig-Holsteins wie Mecklenburgs"

Was meint Ihr dazu? Ist Euch dieses Wort "Dööskopp" für die Vogelart
Tölpel schon einmal über den Weg gelaufen?

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko Evermann



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 22:17:57 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 14:17:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.141757.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 04
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Beste Ron,

> Verlẹdene Tied: ik back, du backst, he back, wi backen



Dat zal toch niet waor wezen..?

Ick meen, in verledene Tied: ik backte, du backtest, he backte, wi backten.

Oder..?

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Dat is för’t Noordneddersassische vun Düütschland *wull* waar, beste Piet.



Dat olde pret. *-de-* is wegfullen:



ik bak*de* > bak (back)
du bak*de*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bak*de* > bak (back)
wi bak*de*n > bakn (backen)



Nutied (*-e* wegfullen):

ik bakk*e* > bak (back)
du bakk*e*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bakk*et* > bakt (backt)
wi bakk*et* > bakt (backt) ~ bakk*e*n > bakken (backen)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:26:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:26:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.08 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.152601.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 05
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.08 (02) [DE-EN]



Dear Lowlanders, dear Ron!

I have checked the article and map under
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ripoaresch-info.php and I have a dispute:
In my opinion the dialects of the cities of Neuss and Duesseldorf are not
categorized as Ripuarian but as Low Rhenish. Neuss and Duesseldorf have
"maken" and not "machen", "lopen" and not "lofen" as further south. I spend
part of my childhood in a place called Kaarst-Buettgen, 5 km to the west of
Neuss which is just to the north of the Benrath line and they definitely
have "maken", "lopen", "jruet" and "voot" for "make", "run", "big" and
"foot" but they have "tsiit" for "time" while the next village to the west
(Kleinenbroich) has already "tiit". My cousin is married to a real
Duesseldorfer from the Wersten neighbourhood and they also have "maken",
"lopen" and "jroot", Wersten is even south of the Duesseldorf city centre,
just north of Benrath which has already "machen", "lofen" and "jrooss". The
usage of ziit instead of tiit is typical for the transitional character of
the Low-Rhewnish diealects, moreover, old documents from the city of Neuss
have shown that the t > z development is a rather recent thing, in middle
age documents Neuss had tiit. My dispute of the above document is also
confirmed by the studies of Joseph Frings and the DWA (
http://www.diwa.info/main.asp?P=catalog). Ron, please study them in more
detail, you will find that Neuss and Duesseldorf are not Ripuarian but Low
Rhenish. You can argue whether Low Rhenish as a whole is "Lowlandic" since
it has already some Middle-Franconian features but if we are going to
include it into Lowlandic, it has to include Neuss and Duesseldorf.

Another obvious mistake on the map is that Low Rhenish is not the northern
variant but the southern variant akin to Limburgish spoken south of the
Uerdingen line while Clevish-Bergisch is the northern one spoken north of
the Uerdingen line. The map shows it the other way around. The dialects of
Eupen and Kelmis in German speaking Belgium are also part of Limburgish
(while Raeren is Ripuarian) and thus also the dark green Limburgish area has
to edge a little bit into the orange of the the East Belgium Ripuarian area.


Let me know your opinion!

Groeten,
Helge



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties



Thank you very much for the great help, Helge.

I have corrected the errors. Please let me know if anything else needs
attention.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:34:25 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:34:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (06) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.153425.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Beste Ron,

O, o, o...

Dat is dan niet zo best steld in et Duuts-Neddersassies..;-)

Et Grunnings bruukt (in VT; verleden tied) nog wel: ik bakde, du
bakdest, hai bakde, wie bakden.

En in et Stellingwarfs zeggen wi'j (in TT; tegenwoordige tied) ok nog
altied: ik bakke, e.z.v.

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

 Beste Piet,

Warüm seggst du: “niet so best steld”, as of dat Wegfallen ’n lege (slechte)
Saak weer? Dat Wegfallen vun düt un dat is in de leeglandschen Spraken
totaalmang begeng.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:40:57 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:40:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.08 (07) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.154057.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.09 (03) [DE]

Ja, leiw' Heiko un all' Lowlanners,

du fragst an: Ist Euch dieses Wort "Dööskopp" für die Vogelart Tölpel schon
einmal über den Weg gelaufen?
*Jaaa...

Dööskopp,* m.,  Dummkopf, Schafskopf, Tölpel, vgl. *Döösbattel*
Lit.: PLATTDEUTSCH-HOCHDEUTSCHES WÖRTERBUCH  (WOLFGANG LINDOW) VERLAG
SCHUSTER LEER

*Tölpel*: Der seit dem 16. Jh. bezeugte abwertende Ausdruck für "plumper,
ungeschickter Mensch" ist durch Luther gemeinsprachlich geworden. Das
Verhältnis von 'Tölpel' zu den älteren Formen dörpel, törpel und
anklingennden Mundartformen gleicher Bedeutung und die weitere Herkunft sind
nicht sicher geklärt.

Abl.: *Tölpelei *"tölpelhaftes Verhalten" (17.Jh.); *tölpisch* "in der Art
eines Tölpels, plump, ungeschickt" (16.Jh., zu einer nicht mehr
gebräuchlichen Form 'Tölp' "Tölpel"),   beachte ...* übertölpeln* "in grober
Weise betrügen, übervorteilen": Das seit dem 16. Jh. bezeugte Verb ist wohl
eine Bildung zu dem  unter *Tölpel
*behandelten Substantiv und bedeutet eigentlich "zum Tölpel machen":
Beeinflußt kann die Bildung von der vom 16. bis 18. Jh. häufig verwendeten
Redensart 'über den Tölpel werfen' "anführen, übervorteilen" sein.
Lit.: DUDEN  7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache

*Döschkopp *m. Dorschkopf; auf Menschen angewandt dicker Kopf, Dummkopf;
auch Schelte für ein störrisches Pferd.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

 Is dat ’n Bewies, Hanne? Dat lett as weer dat eene Neddersassisch un dat
annere Düütsch, *twee* Spraken.

Amenn heff ik dat verkehrt verstahn, man mi dücht, de Frag’ is, of
neddersassisch “Dọ̈ọ̣̈skopp” ook ’n *Vagelnaam* is.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:42:16 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:42:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.154216.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: pbarrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (01) [EN-NDS]

If the purpose of the List is to explore language in an objective way using
the findings of linguistics, then there is nothing contradictory about I
ain't done nothin'. It's not standard English but aren't we exploring
language that is often seen as having no standards just because it isn't the
language of the court, of the capital, of the government?

Pat Barrett



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:43:22 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:43:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.154322.0800.>

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From: pbarrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (01) [EN-NDS]

If the purpose of the List is to explore language in an objective way using
the findings of linguistics, then there is nothing contradictory about I
ain't done nothin'. It's not standard English but aren't we exploring
language that is often seen as having no standards just because it isn't the
language of the court, of the capital, of the government?

Pat Barrett



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 10 18:08:30 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:08:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.10 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.10.MAR.2011.100830.0800.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 10 March - Volume 01
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From: Utz H.Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.09 (03) [DE]

An´n 09.03.2011 22:19, schreef Heiko Evermann:


Was meint Ihr dazu? Ist Euch dieses Wort "Dööskopp" für die Vogelart
Tölpel schon einmal über den Weg gelaufen?

 Moin Heiko,

in´t Poolsche is dat jüst datsülvige: De Vagel heet 'głuptak' un dat is ook
en Naam för "Tölpel, Gimpel, einfältiger Mensch" (seggt dat Wielki Słownik
Polsko-Niemiecki / Großwörterbuch Polnisch-Deutsch).

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.08 (07) [DE-NDS]

Hallo Ron,

hm, nu bün ick nocheins bikamen un heff dit ok noch funn'n bi Perfesser
Voßlo:
*Tölpel, *a. Spr. auch - ü - m. Tölpel 1. eig.:'Vele hofferdige Tůlpel';  *
Tölpel* grober, unbeholfener Mensch.
2.  *Tölpel  *Halskrankheit,  Ziegenpeter.

Kiek mal, wat ick noch so funn'n heff: *Dœs'kopp*  näumen de Fohrenslüüd
einen Vagel, de an de Nuurdküst' von Südamerika vörkümmt un so grot sien
sall as ein Adebor. Künn je sien, ick heff nu den'n richtigen Angelhaken
utsmäten.

Männigmal is *Dœskopp *ok ein Schimpwuurd bi dat Häuhnerveih, dat Hauhn
röppt den'n Hahn tau:
*du du Dœs'kopp, hest mi vör 'n Noors stött*, man, ditmal bün ick woll de
Dœskopp wäst.

Ok bi Fritz Reuter is dit Wuurd begäng'.

Hartlich mien Gräuten mit lütt bäten Spåß.

Hanne



----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



Hanne:



Kiek mal, wat ick noch so funn'n heff: *Dœs'kopp*  näumen de Fohrenslüüd
einen Vagel, de an de Nuurdküst' von Südamerika vörkümmt un so grot sien
sall as ein Adebor. Künn je sien, ick heff nu den'n richtigen Angelhaken
utsmäten.

 Aha! Na, *dat* is een Fund. Daar hebtt wi ’t nu. Prima maakt, Hanne!
Krieggst ’n groten Dank.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 10 18:10:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:10:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.10 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.10.MAR.2011.101041.0800.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 10 March - Volume 02
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]

and of course if you look at the rest of language as well, redundancy is
everywhere to be found... which among other things helps when there is
"noise"...



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (08) [EN]

Nearly all forms of English, with the excaption of Standard ones, tend use
multiple negatives.  The idea that "the negatives cancel each other out" is
a psuedo-mathematical argument that assumes the rule is a multiplication
anyway; when it is obviously additive.  "I ain't no way no how not gonna do
nuthin' like that" makes it quite clear that the speaker is being negative;
you don't have to go through all the negative words to work that out.

Paul

Derby

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 18:04:32 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:04:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.100432.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Members

Dear Lowlanders,

With regard to the enormous earthquake and tsunami in Japan, I very much
hope that all our members and their loved ones in Japan and on all Pacific
coasts are well and safe. Please be careful, especially if you live on the
North American Pacific coast!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 18:08:11 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:08:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.100811.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.10 (02) [EN]


From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]

and of course if you look at the rest of language as well, redundancy is
everywhere to be found... which among other things helps when there is
"noise"...



Hi,



This 'redundancy' sounds more 'sophisticated' when we call it :
self-correcting-factor.



This self-correcting-factor is to be found everywhere, and even is a
build-in factor in a lot of control systems.
But notice:  in language this control factor is used not just for logical,
semantic purposes, but also when expressing emotional levels.

[I could say all this again in other words, but that is a redundancy of the
self-corrector-factor. :)].

In descriptive linguistics this factor mostly has been manipulated as an
idiotic feature, as a feature/mechanism of the maker of the text.
But as all persons use this mechanism, it is language-systematic. And then,
of course, there is a overlap with rhetorics.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 18:18:32 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:18:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.11 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.101832.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.10 (01) [DE-NDS]

Dank di Ron,

ick heff mi bannig freut.

Nu möten wi je noch rutekriegen, woans de *Dœs'kopp *utsüht.

Ick heff all sotauseggen up halwen Weg wat funn'n.
Dœs'kopp künn je ok villicht wat mit 'Spotted Dikkop' (Burhinus capensis) to
daun hebben.

http://ibc.lynxeds.com/species/spotted-dikkop-burhinus-capensis

Künn je sien, dat diss Vagelort nich blot in Afrika läwt...

Gräuten an all' Lowlanners.

Hanne



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Leve Hanne,

Wo de Vagels (*Sulidae: Sula, Papasula, Morus*) uutsüht, dat kannst hier
sehn:



EN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulidae
       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gannet
       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booby

DE: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%B6lpel

 Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 20:50:18 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:50:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.11 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.125018.0800.>

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From: Obiter Dictum <obiterdictum at mail.ru>

Subject: members

sjoe. dis 'n dem close shave this time
 http://www.reuters.com/news/video/story?videoId=194505631&videoChannel=2602
a nuke plant is ablaze somewhere up north here. connection by wifi via
russian satellite. for once of any use.

Vlad Lee
Tokyo


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 22:22:07 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:22:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.142207.0800.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 11 March - Volume 04
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From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (04) [NL]

Beste Piet, Ron & Laaglanders,

Op 10.03.11 00:34, schreef Piet Bult <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

O, o, o...

Dat is dan niet zo best steld in et Duuts-Neddersassies..;-)
Et Grunnings bruukt (in VT; verleden tied) nog wel: ik bakde, du
bakdest, hai bakde, wie bakden.
En in et Stellingwarfs zeggen wi'j (in TT; tegenwoordige tied) ok nog
altied: ik bakke, e.z.v.

En R. F. Hahn antwoordde:

 Warüm seggst du: “niet so best steld”, as of dat Wegfallen ’n lege
(slechte) Saak weer? Dat Wegfallen vun düt un dat is in de leeglandschen
Spraken totaalmang begeng.


Vanuit het Westfaals gezien en ook na mijn taalgevoel of taalsmaak heeft
Piet Bult in dit geval gelijk.

Het heet ook in het Westfaals (verledentijd): *ik bakde/bakkede, du
bakdes/bakkedes, wi bakden enz.*

Je kunt ook zeggen (sterke buiging): *ik bouk, du bouks, ze bouk, wi bouken,
ji bouken. *Deelwijs maar vervangen door de eigenlijke optatief-vormen
*böik(s),
böiken*.

In tegenwoordige tijd heet het ook: *ik bakke, wi bakket*, maar *ik bak* is
ook niet vals.

En ik vind wel, dat het wegvallen/vergeten van belangrijke vormen voor de
betekenis in het Duits Kust-Plat een slecht zaak is. Daarom valt ook straks
of later het Platduitse weg. Een taal zonder herkenbare tijdvormen is neen
nuttig communicatie-middel meer.

Jammer, dat het Westfaals-Nederduit meer of minner dood is. Zo is misschien
het Nedersaksisch in Nederland origineler Nederduits dan het Platduits.

*Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse talen
gewoon, maar sommige verliezen zijn toe wijd gaande, ook al in het
standaard-Nederlands* (het wegvallen van de *du*-vorm b.v. en de navolgende
verwarring en kunstmatigheid in het gebruik van jij/je en jullie - daartoe
een volgende keer meer).

Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Grammar

Piet, Joachim, Lowlanders,

I’m switching this to English because I feel the topic is of wider
relevance.

Folks, I showed that the present and preterit forms of “weak” verbs (not of
“strong” verbs) in Northern Low Saxon dialects coincide due to deletion of
preterit *-de*;

 Present:
ik bakk*e* > bak (back)
du bakk*e*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bakk*et* > bakt (backt)
wi bakk*et* > bakt (backt) ~ bakk*e*n > bakken (backen)



Preterit:

ik bak*de* > bak (back)
du bak*de*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bak*de* > bak (back)
wi bak*de*n > bakn (backen)

Piet’s reaction was something along the lines of “then that dialect group is
in trouble,” and above Joachim agreed with him, saying something like “a
dialect group that doesn’t keep its tenses apart is bound to disappear.”

I regard this never proven hypothesis as being based upon the superseded,
classic-humanities-based (i.e. Greek- and Latin-fed) assumptions that ...



(1) older forms are better than newer forms,
(2) more complex morphology is better than simple morphology



If this were so, then English and Afrikaans would have long ended up on the
scrapheap of the language world, and Dutch, too, would be highly endangered
for morphological reasons.

Furthermore, you, Joachim, yourself pointed out that the Westphalian
dialects of Low Saxon do retain the old preterit *-de* and are now
endangered. In fact, they are more endangered than are the Northern Low
Saxon dialects, most of which have discarded the preterit *-de*.



In response to me having pointed out that deletion of morphemic markers is
common among the Lowlands languages, Joachim write above:


*Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse talen
gewoon, maar sommige verliezen zijn toe wijd gaande, ook al in het
standaard-Nederlands*



My translation:



*The loss of this and that may be common in the Lowlands languages, but some
losses go too far, even in standard Dutch*



Question: How much is “too far,” and who gets to decide what’s “too far”?
Surely it’s for the speakers to decide. In other words, it’s for the
language itself to decide what losses are permissible and with what losses
it can and cannot cope. *Equating morphological (or other types of
linguistic) simplification with a weakening language status is quite
unfounded.*


Vital (i.e., not already highly moribund) languages have ways of “repairing”
themselves in cases of what we consider loss. Being today’s "strongest" and
predominant language, English is a prime example. It dealt with morphemic
atrophy by, among other ways, making its syntax static, inflexible, thus
compensating for the loss of morphemic object marking (by assigning subject
and object to specific syntactic slots). Afrikaans has abolished the
preterit altogether and uses only what used to be the perfective; e.g.
strong ‘go’ and weak ‘bake’:

  *English*

*Dutch*

*N. L. Saxon*

*Afrikaans*

to go, bake

gaan, bakken

gahn, backen

gaan, bak

I go, bake

ik ga, bak

ik gah, back

ek gaan, bak

I went, baked

ik ging, bakte

ik güng, back

ek het gegaan, gebakt

I have gone, baked

ik ben gegaan, heb gebakken

ik bün gahn, heff backt



In Northern Low Saxon (and even more in Missingsch varieties that are based
upon it), there is a tendency toward using the perfective form, especially
where otherwise ambiguity would arise in a preterit form. This process has
been completed in Afrikaans and in Hamburg Missingsch:



*Standard German*

*Hamburg** Missingsch*

*N. L. Saxon*

*Afrikaans*

gehen, backen

gehn, backng

gahn, backen

gaan, bak

ich gehe, backe

ich geh, back

ik gah, back

ek gaan, bak

ich ging, buk ~ backte

ich bin gegangng, habb gebackng

ik güng, back ~ heff backt
ik bün gahn, heff backt

ek het gegaan, gebakt

ich bin gegangen, habe gebacken



Context usually counteracts tense ambiguity.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 23:31:19 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:31:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.153119.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 March - Volume 05
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Vital (i.e., not already highly moribund) languages have ways of “repairing”
themselves in cases of what we consider loss.


Yep. A language cannot kill itself by morphological erosion. If the
morphological forms are important they wouldn't erode in the first place. In
the case of Low Saxon they weren't important because people could use "ik
heff packt" as an alternative. It's not uncommon that languages have no past
tense at all. If they need to mark that something happened in the past they
just place an adverb or a particle in the sentence to mark it. Works
perfectly.

Marcus Buck



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Grammar

As a result of “classical indoctrination,” it is common to assume that
morphological complexity is superior wherever morphologically complex
“classical” languages are celebrated and taught as transmitters of
“classical” literature of a supposedly golden age.

This is so for example in the “West” with its Latin and Greek heritage,
Southern Asia with its Sanskrit heritage, and the Arabic-speaking world with
its shared tradition of morphologically more complex Qur’anic Arabic. Is
there anything you can say in Latin or Ancient Greek that you can’t say in
Catalan, French, Dutch, Welsh or Kashubian? Is there anything you can say in
Sanskrit that you can’t say in Hindi, Bengali, Garwhali, Oriya or Romany? Is
there anything you can say in Qur’anic Arabic that you can’t say in
Maghrebi, Egyptian, Levantine, Hassaniya, Gulf or Maltese Arabic? Can you
say things better in morphologically complex Old Norse than in the
morphologically highly simplified Modern Scandinavian varieties? No! On the
contrary: the modern forms cope much better with life in our time ... and
they are a heck of a lot easier to learn.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar 12 22:07:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:07:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.12 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.12.MAR.2011.140701.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 March - Volume 01
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From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>

Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.11 (01) [EN]

Dear Lowlanders,

It is said that the earthquate shoulbe the greatest one after Meiji Era. In
Funabashi, about 500Km southward from the largest city, of the Sendai,
Tohoku area, I could saresly to stand right in the first quake. Fortunately,
our damage is only some portcellan were broken.



But, in the northern area , the enoumouse damage was due to "Tunami".

Mybe more than 2000 people were dead.

 he whole situation of the earthquake and the Tunnami was not yet cleared.



Thanks for kind words of all of you.



Regardds,



Yasuji Waki, Funabashi, Chiba Pref. Japan



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 00:42:12 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 16:42:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.12 (02) [AF-EN-NL]
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L O W L A N D S - L - 12 March - Volume 02
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste Ron,



You wrote:



This is so for example in the “West” with its Latin and Greek heritage,
Southern Asia with its Sanskrit heritage, and the Arabic-speaking world with
its shared tradition of morphologically more complex Qur’anic Arabic. Is
there anything you can say in Latin or Ancient Greek that you can’t say in
Catalan, French, Dutch, Welsh or Kashubian? Is there anything you can say in
Sanskrit that you can’t say in Hindi, Bengali, Garwhali, Oriya or Romany? Is
there anything you can say in Qur’anic Arabic that you can’t say in
Maghrebi, Egyptian, Levantine, Hassaniya, Gulf or Maltese Arabic? Can you
say things better in morphologically complex Old Norse than in the
morphologically highly simplified Modern Scandinavian varieties? No! On the
contrary: the modern forms cope much better with life in our time ... and
they are a heck of a lot easier to learn.



I don't think modern forms "cope better with life in our time"; they are not
living beings, but merely the result of everyday life. Language erosion
happens spontaneously and is essentially the product of other processes
(speed of life, scale issues, type of interaction/communication, changing
technicality). Admitted, in turn, language provides feedback and can direct
those processes in second order.



Then again, since human life is too rich and delicate to be contained in a
"one size fits all" format, every language in modern society has more than
one register (archaic, formal, casual...), besides prose and verse. Today is
in many ways the sum of whatever that happened in the past, one linguistic
layer on top of another. Redundancy galore indeed, as human nature is often
inclusive, accepting and forgiving.



Therefore, since we are standing on those that came before us and because
society itself is ever changing (shifting values and relations), here and
there you'll find muddy sand, quicksand and hotspots in our linguistic
landscape (double negations, a zillion overlapping tenses, grammatical
exceptions). Whenever we detect such a faultline, most of us ignore it, and
still prefer to live under that volcano or near a ring of fire. Others try
to delete it, even though they know the delete-key for language is a strange
beast. It has a life of its own...worse, it never responds quickly, and when
it does, often erratically. Fear not, a linguistic earthquake is not an
option.



Regarding the ability to say everything you wish in a modern language (in
contrast with a classical one), yes, of course you can convey any message in
a modern language...but...hów the content is being transmitted plays a role
too in how the message is being perceived by the listener. Take a
celebration (Christian, Jewish, Islamic...) and deliver it in the most
formal register available today...then bring the same service in Old Church
Slavonic, Latin, Sanskrit...understandably for an audience of people who
master those languages, and ask them which service they liked most. If
singing was also involved (where style matters even more!), I dare to
predict that the classical languages will score significantly higher. Why?
Probably because the words are found to be closer in significance to what is
written in a (holy) book? Maybe because phrasing sounds more solemn and
therefore more powerful? Or because those words are not so down-to-earth,
and require interpretation, an intellectual exercise...that some like. The
easiest way is not always the best way...in the long run.



Does the Internet need Latin?

Some Finns think it does, Nuntii
Latini<http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/>: the latest news in
Latin. If ever you're stranded in Vatican City, it may
be helpful, ATM machines offer instructions in Latin.



Old and new, all mixed, such is life. Let's not make an exclusive choice
between minimalism and diversity. Choose both.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



----------



From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]

Beste Laëlanders:



Onderwerp: LL-L "Grammatika"



Aldus 'n skuiler, wat geensins tot 'n ander se taalbelange kan bydra, al lê
die onderwerp hoe na aan sy hart.



Ek staan (uit 'n ander hoek uit) saam met Ron in die verband. Mynsinsiens is
dit die gebruik daarvan wat die ontwikkeling en toestand van 'n taal bepaal,
nie 'n versteende grammatika nie. Ek dink nou aan die Akademie Francais, wat
die algewone Fransssprekende daartoe wil dwing om hul langbaard priesters in
wit likens met hulle lewerwiggelary te gaan raadpleeg hoe om die belange van
sy hart te uiter. Sommige akademuci is eens met moed en murg aan die gang om
sodanige edelgesteente vir die Taal op te rig. Dankie Allemagtige vir sy
afstorwe.



Saamgestem: My Afrikaans het heel flytig sonder verbuiging seëvier, en so
ook die algemene aanwendbaarheid van die moderne Skandanawiese tale in
vergelyking met bv Yslands (Tog het ek Yslands lief - lang mag daardie taal
behoue bly!). Mag ek vra, Ron: Dink jy kan daar 'n verskynsel soos Hebreeus
in Plats ontwikkel? Iets gelykstaande aan Hebreeus se merkwaardige geardheid
om beide heel analetiese struktuur een kant van AB Hebreeus en uiters
Grammatikaals aan die ander van die taal spektrum te aanvaar?



This from a lurker, that can nowise contribute to the language-preferences
of another, no matter how close the matter is to his heart.



I stand (from another perspective) with Ron in this matter. In my opinion it
is the usage that determines the development & state of a language, not a
fossilised grammer. My reflections turn to the Academie Francais, that would
rather oblige the ordinary French-speaker to consult their long-bearded
priests in white sheets & augeries before expressing the longings of the
heart. Some academicans burning with zeal were once well on their way to
establishing just such an idolatry for the Taal. Thank the Lord it died
stillborn.



Conceded: My Afrikaans triumphed right featly without declensions, so also
the modern Scandanavian tongues in comparison with eg Icelandic (Even so I
love Icelandic - long may that language endure). May I ask, Ron: Do you
think something can develop in Plattish that happened in Hebrew? Similar to
Hebrew's notable property that embraces a very analytic structure at one end
of RP Hebrew & completely grammatical at the other end of the spectrum?



Die Uwe,

Mark



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L: "Grammar"

Beste Ron, Joachim e.a.,

Hierbij een bescheiden en beschouwende bijdrage van een 'Calimero'
(Calimerocomplex: zij zijn groot en ik is klein).



Het gaat natuurlijk niet om het gelijk hebben of krijgen, maar... In
algemene zin proef ik vaak een vorm van arrogantie tussen 'groot' en
'klein'. Ik bewonder en heb diep respect voor de kennis en kundigheid van de
meesten van de LL-L, die van Ron in het bijzonder. Ik voel mij dan slechts
een nietige Calimero. Toch proef ik vaak ook op LL-L een vorm van kille
arrogantie van (meestal) Amerikanen ten opzichte van de 'rest van de
wereld', die vervolgens bij mij vaak een nederige blokkade in de discussie
opwerpt.



Dit zelfde verschijnsel voel ik ook vaak tussen wetenschap en praktijk van
alledag. Een voorbeeld: in noord-Duitsland zouden volgens wetenschappelijk
onderzoek van enkele jaren geleden nog zo'n 20.000.000 platt-praoters zijn.
In de praktijk kom je (zelf empirisch vastgesteld) zelden iemand op straat
tegen waar je in het 'platt' een gesprek mee kunt voeren. Dat zelfde geldt
ook in de Stellingwarven: wetenschappelijk geteld zijn er (nog) ruim 25.000
kroem-praoters. In de praktijk vind ik met moeite slechts een paar honderd.
De wetenschap mag dan officieel gelijk hebben maar toch lijkt het niet op de
dagelijkse waarheid.



Ron: "Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse
talen gewoon..." (van Joachim) mag je naar mijn gevoel niet vertalen met
"The loss of this and that may be common in the Lowlands languages..." "It
was - and maybe - it (still) is" is toch echt heel iets anders dan "het
mag/zal gewoon(te) -of- algemeen bekend zijn" ("it may be common"). Vandaar
ook al eens een eerdere opmerking van mij met de vraag waarom van een
bericht in een oorspronkelijke taal vaak naar (wetenschappelijk?) Engels
wordt overgestapt. Hier schuilt (ook) een groot gevaar in, in onderlinge
communicatie. Vooral als het over het precies duiden van details gaat zoals
over een natuurlijke (geschreven) morfologie van woorden (vaak vooraf gegaan
door een natuurlijke fonologische verschuiving?).



Tot in het diepste van mijn hart vind ik eigenlijk dat een discussie over
deze fijngevoeligheden alleen te voeren zijn met gelijktaligen en dan vind
ik persoonlijk als compromis, het (Amerikaans)Engels daarvoor wel het meest
*ongeschikt*. Liever zou ik zien dat een ieder in zijn eigen moedertaal
blijft persisteren en de interpretatie overlaat aan de lezer. Daar komt nog
bij dat bijv. het zuid-Afrikaans, het Hawaiaans of het bijv. het Vlaams toch
vele malen lekkerder smaakt dan bijv. het Engels? In dit verband vind ik het
jammer dat bijv. het Spaans niet de wereldtaal is geworden die het
emotioneel gezien beter had verdiend dan het Engels. (Amerikaans)Engels is
prima voor een handleiding maar leent zich - naar mijn bescheiden mening -
in z'n geheel niet voor tekst met emotie (communicatie is -vaak- emotie) of
het verwoorden van kleine nuances. Een simpel voorbeeld: het Engels zegt
tegen iedereen 'you' terwijl het Duits, Nederlands, Afrikaans, enz. een
groot en niet onbelangrijk verschil maken tussen 'jij' en 'u'. Is alles wat
vliegen kan een vogel..?



Kleine talen zoals het Nedersaksisch doen momenteel erg hun best om die taal
te behouden. We worden door allerlei taalinstituten dan ook erg gestimuleerd
om vooral veel in die kleine te schrijven, maar... Het Nedersaksich is van
oorsprong veel meer een spreektaal dan een ge- en beschreven taal. Mijn
stelling is dan ook: het schrijven maakt een taal juist kapot, of ook wel:
het geschreven woord kent geen, of in ieder geval minder, emotie; niet te
verwarren met: geschreven woorden kunnen geen emotie oproepen! Veranderingen
in een kleine - geschreven - taal gaan volgens mij altijd ten koste van die
kleine taal. Er vindt in de praktijk meestal een ver-/opschuiving plaats in
de richting van de naburige, grotere taal. Vandaar mijn opmerking: "O, o,
o... Dat is dan niet zo best steld in et Duuts-Neddersassies."



Joachim: "In tegenwoordige tijd heet het ook: ik bakke, wi bakket, maar ik
bak is ook niet vals." [Ned.: niet vals = niet verkeerd.]
Inderdaad is 'ik bak' net zo goed als 'ik bakke'. In het Stellingwerfs (Ned.
Nedersaksisch) komen wij dat nog heel veel tegen en is het aan het gevoel
van de schrijver om zijn vorm daarin te kiezen. Ik loop, ik lope, ik fiets,
ik fietse, ik woon, ik wone, ik kiek, ik kieke, ik wark, ik warke, ik huus,
ik huze (=verblijven), e.z.v. Allemaal goed.

Joachim: Ik geloof ook dat de LS-dialecten in Nederland authentieker zijn
(gebleven) dan het LS in Duitsland. Ook in het huidige Nederlands kom je
meer oud-(Indo)Germaanse woorden tegen dan in bijv. het Duits.

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Grammar



Luc, you wrote:


I don't think modern forms "cope better with life in our time"; they are not
living beings, but merely the result of everyday life. Language erosion
happens spontaneously and is essentially the product of other processes
(speed of life, scale issues, type of interaction/communication, changing
technicality). Admitted, in turn, language provides feedback and can direct
those processes in second order.



I agree. Another important factor is language contact, which includes but is
not limited to use of a language by sizable populations of non-native
speakers, and there are various other sorts of foreign influence as well.



Take a celebration (Christian, Jewish, Islamic...) and deliver it in the
most formal register available today...then bring the same service in Old
Church Slavonic, Latin, Sanskrit...understandably for an audience of people
who master those languages, and ask them which service they liked most. If
singing was also involved (where style matters even more!), I dare to
predict that the classical languages will score significantly higher. Why?
Probably because the words are found to be closer in significance to what is
written in a (holy) book? Maybe because phrasing sounds more solemn and
therefore more powerful? Or because those words are not so down-to-earth,
and require interpretation, an intellectual exercise...that some like. The
easiest way is not always the best way...in the long run.



This is quite true in my experience. People tend to prefer special
“elevated” languages or language varieties for ceremonial and liturgical
purposes. This has a variety of reasons, most of which you mentioned, Luc. I
would like to add to this sacred/liturgical language as a symbol of
religious and often also ethnic identity. Classical Arabic serves as such
throughout the Islamic world, Classical Hebrew does the same in Judaism,
Ge’ez in Ethiopic Christianity, Egyptian (Coptic) in Coptic Christianity,
Classical Armenian in Armenian Christianity, Early Church Slavonic in East
European Orthodoxy, and so on. Latin happens to be used in Roman Catholicism
because the Church rose to its zenith under Roman tutelage, although Rome
was initially hostile to Christianity and New Testament Greek and Aramaic
would in theory be more appropriate (and are indeed used by the
Syrian/Maronite and Greek Orthodox churches respectively). And, yes, with
the introduction of more vernacular language content even many of those
Roman Catholics moaned that did not really understand Latin. Early Reform
Judaism, originating in Northern Germany and soon spreading to the USA, saw
19th-century Lutheranism as a formal guide. It was rather “militant” about
getting rid of all that old, “exotic hocus-pocus,” and this included
eliminating almost all use of Hebrew and Aramaic. In the meantime, a good
deal of the “exotic hocus-pocus,” including Hebrew and Aramaic, has been
returned, just enough as to not obscure the Reform Jewish mission. This
happened because of overwhelming public demand, and many people that
demanded it knew little or no Hebrew and Aramaic. (Bear in mind that a good
majority of American Jews -- more than 50% of the world's Jewry (of barely
13 million) -- belongs to the Reform Movement.)

Mark, you wrote above:



May I ask, Ron: Do you think something can develop in Plattish that happened
in Hebrew? Similar to Hebrew's notable property that embraces a very
analytic structure at one end of RP Hebrew & completely grammatical at the
other end of the spectrum?



I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re getting at, Mark, but my first
inclination is to say, “no.” ;-)

First of all, there is the unique type of analytic structure found in Hebrew
and all other Semitic languages, nay, in the entire Afro-Asiatic family of
which Semitic is a branch. In my opinion, this can not be replicated in
languages outside that family.

Secondly, the story of Hebrew is probably unique. The language changed very
little between the start of Israel’s Hellenistic Period in the 4th century
BCE (when Hebrew ceased to be used in daily life and Aramaic and Greek took
over) and the 19th- and mostly 20th-century language revival moment. In
other words, there are no real intermediary stages that in other languages
create a continuum. As a result, Modern Hebrew speakers have for the past 50
odd years been “playing” with creating demarcation lines and registers. For
example, there are at least two registers of spoken Hebrew: “ordinary” and
“classicizing,” in which even the pronunciation varies. Add to this Biblical
and liturgical registers, with which even the most secular of Israelis are
familiar.



Beste Piet, je schreef:



Het Nedersaksich is van oorsprong veel meer een spreektaal dan een ge- en
beschreven taal.



Niet “van oorsprong”. Of ... beter gezegd, niet meer “van oorsprong” dan
andere talen. *Alle* natuurlijke talen zijn van oorsprong spreektalen. De
Saksische taal wordt sinds de tijd van de Frankische overwinning
onophoudelijk geschreven, met name in the tijd van de Hanze. Het is echter
waar dat er in de 18de eeuw een literaire slop was. Niettemin schreven de
gewone geletterde mensen nog steeds brieven in het “Plat”, en de meeste van
hen lazen ook nog steeds hun (Neder–)Saksische Bijbel met zijn oudere,
“klassiekere” taalvariëteit. Maar ja, het was en is vooral een gesproken
taal.

Tussen haakjes, beste Piet, ik ben het met je eens dat het aantal
Nedersaksische sprekers een heleboel overschat wordt. Veel mensen zeggen
“ja” als ze gevraagd werd of ze “Plat” “kunnen”. Velen van hen weten niet
eens wat “Plat” betekent; zij geloven het betekent (in Nederland)
“Oost-Nederlands dialect” (dat wil zeggen Nederlands op een Nedersaksisch
substraat) of (in Duitsland) "Missingsch" (dat wil zeggen Duits op een
Nedersaksisch substraat). En anderen kunnen het Nedersaksisch meer of minder
begrijpen maar zijn niet in staat om de taal goed te spreken en te
schrijven.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
[Sakser, Duitser, Australiër, Amerikaan ... hopelijk niet excessief
arrogant.]



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:32:04 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:32:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.13 (01)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.163204.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 01
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.13 (05)

Hi,

Concerning the bird-names 'Dœskopp / Tölpel':

Last night my memory started working, and I think the sailors gave those
names to the birds.
It happened that a gannet landed on the deck of a ship, and making his steps
on the deck the bird made a completely clownesk impression,
and the bird made a helpless impression when it tried to take off again.

About 1880 a french poet wrote a poem about it.
At last, literature is a help for me.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:33:26 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:33:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.163326.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.12 (01) [EN]

*Beste Fründ Yasuji un Ron un all' Lowlanners.

All lang' sünd mien Gedanken in dien Heimat Yasuji. So ein deip Mitfäuhlen
kann ick nich in Wüür faten.

Dat bölkt in mi  tau helpen... un Japan is so wiet so wiet weg...

Woans koenen wi Lowlanners upstunn's helpen...

So weit ick ümmer, wat sick so deit:
*
http://www.dradio.de/aktuell/1409962/

*Ut deipen Harten.

Hanne
Schwerin Germany*



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:35:16 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:35:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2011.03.13 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.163516.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 03
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Travels

1 - Flight

I have been In Wilmington DE again past week. After the forced stay in
Bangor, I reported about in January, I got a voucher from US Airways of USD
150 deduction for a next flight. Although I used US Airways again, I did not
use the voucher, since it required ordering at a 0800 number in the USA,
where I got a ticket offered that was 400 USD more expensive than what I
found on the internet. What you get on the internet over here is in Euro all
included. What you get offered in the USA is in USD, airport taxed excluded,
to be added at the end. So one should have a calculator at hand and be very
carefull.



2 - The return flight had a delay of 4 hours before take-off. They had
problems with the first plane, we finally got seats reallocated in a second
plane that came from St Thomas. That one stayed on the ground more than an
hour after us being boarded, apparently for an issue with catering. After
all, that waiting was not worthwhile I think, since what we got as evening
meal was a little bit of macaroni with just some stiffened milk on it, and
for breakfast a little 1" by 1" cookie.



3 - Before artrival I have been reading the customs declaration form. You
have to declare that you have no food nor fruit with you, and you risk a
serious penalty for a false declaration. I always have Belgian chocolates
with me, as also Belgian waffles and cookies, as well as dried figs this
time (dried fruit that you find at the Wallgreens tastes horribly, so ...).
Since I did never took care before, I signed for not having any food and I
was fortunately not checked at the custom gate. What is annoying me is that
in the US Airways Duty Free Shopping guide they offer:

- 180 g of chocolate covered blueberries, Wildy Delicious, for USD 13

- 4.25 oz of original gourmet jelly beans (... natural ingredients ... real
fruit...), Jelly Belly, for USD 8

- Luxury 6 bar assortment Godiva chocolatier, for USD 18

- 7 bar pack Toblerone chocolate, 7 x 50g for USD 10

A question for frequent intercontinental travellers: do you eat this stuff
before you leave the plane when returning in the US? Or do you show this
stuff spontanuously for inspection at the customs when entering the US?



4 - I used Amtrak 2 times. On Sunday for visiting an exposition at Yale in
New Haven, CT. For this quite short distance it takes 3:45 hrs with the
Nortwest Regional or 3:15 hrs with the Arcela Express. The Express train has
less stops, but except for that, it has virtually the same (slow) speed as
the Northwest Regional. I took the latter for saving some money. It arrived
25 mins late at Wilmington station for departure, which turned out to become
50 minutes late at New Haven. Since it was raining heavely I wanted to
shorten my stay in New Haven, but I finally did not since the penalty for a
ticket change was USD 69.

It is the first time I do some travelling with a train in the US. The seats
are confortable and clean. The toilets are not since the travel time between
Washington DC and Boston is very long and there is quite some commuting
public on medium distance (For very short distance commuting there are other
systems on the same rail tracks, as "Marc" in Maryland, "Septa" in Delaware
and Eastern Pennsylvania, "NJ Transit" in New Jersey, "Metro North" and
"ShoreLineEast" in CT etc.).

They only give access to the platforms 5 minutes before departure. At major
stations as Penn in NYC and in Philadelphia they take 10 to 15 minutes
sincey the want to have the platforms cleared from arriving passengers
before the give access to departing passengers.

Since it is all so very time-taking, and air traffic is time consuming as
well, I plan to use one of the long distance busses a next time (as e.g.
Greyhound or Peter Pan). Do some members of the list have experience with
these?



5 - Tuesday I used Amtrak a second time. This time South to Washington DC
(about 90 minutes). The Express was still too expensive for me, but I got a
business class at the NorthEast Regional for a small premium. In coach class
the tablet was touching my belly when down Sunday before, in business this
time I had about 40cm extra space. I didn't see any other advantage. The
business class coach is at the front end of the train, which requires a long
walk, but it has advantages upon arrival on end stations as the Union
Station in Washington DC. In Washington my busnisesses were all close to the
Red Line, and I even had a spare hour for a quick tour of the Ford's Theatre
(really worthwhile). I had a very affordabe dinner at the Cosmos Club at
2121 Mass Av (This club has a reciprocity agreement with our Flemish
business club "De Warande" in Brussels). In the late afternoon I attended a
book presentation in an auditorium of the Cato Institute 1000 Mass. Av.
There were quite a lot of extremely enthousiastic students of different
universities attending. While Europeans are generally quite sceptic when
dealing with political philosophy, Americans often have a religious
enthousiasm for the political stream of their choice.



6 - Wednesday I had some time in the morning for visiting Lewes
(Swanendael). I have passed at the museum (a copy of the town hall of Hoorn,
Nl), but it looked closed and there was not very much alive downtown. All
shopping areas are at at the outskirt of the town. On the way back I was
stopped in Milford, Sussex County, by the State Police for driving 81 at
a four lane road, with limitation to 55 mph. I can choose between appearing
in court in April or paying a fine of USD 98 + taxes, bringing the total
upon USD 196.65. In the US a customer never knows what he has o pay at the
end. The taxes added on the ticket include: ."Victim comp.", "Video Phone",
"DELJIS fund", "Transportation Fund", "Court Security", "Court Costs".



7 - Thursday I had some time at noon and I visited downtown New Castle
(formerly Fort Casimir, later Nieuw Amstel). It has a nice green with
colonial houses around the square and the old court, turned into a museum,
in the middle. It is quite nice, but apparently not known by the tourists
(In Belgium all those houses would most certainly be turned into cafés and
eateries). I had a long chat with the guide of the museum, since he spoke
Dutch fluently. He has been military at Soesterberg for many years, and, as
many of his military friends from the Dover area did, found his wife in the
Utrechtse Heuvelrug area. There are regularily "Holland" events in the area
South of Dover.



8 - However informal the US may look like, at formal occasions one has to
respect the rules of the game. On formal diners as e.g. of the dinner of
chamber of commerce, one wears a dark suit, white shirt and tie. It opens
with an invocation by a minister of a church or by a rabbi followed by the
national anthem. For the New Castle County dinner last week the latter was
combined with the Posting of Colours by the DE National Guard. In Europe we
are not used to this, and I think, presenting the Belgian flag in such a
formal way, would be counter productive. Charity is part of the game: you
pay 200 USD for the food + water excluding other drinks, which you cand find
(for cash + tip) at a cash bar. During the dinner you are pushed to buy some
raffle tickets (20 USD each), last Monday evening sold by the real Miss
Delaware of the year,



I'm back in Belgium for just a week, and I will return to the US for Promat
(http://www.promatshow.com/). I attended that event before in 2009. I will
take care my fine in DE will be paid before I re-enter the us.



Regards,

Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:39:36 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:39:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.13 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.163936.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 04
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.12 (02) [AF-EN-NL]

From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Joachim: Ik geloof ook dat de LS-dialecten in Nederland authentieker zijn
(gebleven) dan het LS in Duitsland. Ook in het huidige Nederlands kom je
meer oud-(Indo)Germaanse woorden tegen dan in bijv. het Duits.



Ik geloof het niet. Heeft jij bewijs voor deze bewering (LS-NL authentieker
dan LS-DE)?

Marcus Buck



----------



From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]

Ron wrote:



Preterit:

ik bak*de* > bak (back)
du bak*de*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bak*de* > bak (back)
wi bak*de*n > bakn (backen)

Piet’s reaction was something along the lines of “then that dialect group is
in trouble,” and above Joachim agreed with him, saying something like “a
dialect group that doesn’t keep its tenses apart is bound to disappear.”


If that be the case, then my home dialect (West Twente) would be in severe
trouble (which it isn't). The past tense of all verbs for all persons in my
dialect is simply the verb itself. We say:

ik bakken
y bakken
hey bakken
wy bakken
etc.

If that is a sign of disappearance, please explain why precisely my home
dialect is of the strongest persistence in a very wide area.

cheers,

Henry Pijffers



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:41:10 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:41:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.164110.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 05
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.12 (01) [EN]

We can only watch the videos with disbelief.  As a geologist, I know this
was always going to happen in Japan one day.  That doesn't make it any
easier to take in, or make me feel any less helpless.



Paul

Derby

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 01:28:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:28:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.182801.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 06
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From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>

Subject: LL-L "Menbers”



Dear Hanne, Paul and other all Lowlanders,

 Franklich say, I could not imagine that the Damage of the eathquake and
Tsunami was so large and so many people were killed and cannot be foundif
they are alive or not. A source says that more than 100 not. A source says
that more than 10000 people would be dead.



In Chiba Pref. most of the Railways do not operate. Just now moves the
earth. OUr Appartmen house move raher strong.



Thanks again.



Yasuji Waki



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Members

Dear Yasuji-san,

It must be a frightening experience. I’ve been through a number of
earthquakes, including one in Japan. But I can not even imagine going
through an earthquake of that magnitude followed by several aftershocks that
are earthquakes in their own right.

Please just remember that we Lowlanders think of you and of all your
compatriots, little though that may mean to you at this time.

Please keep updating us about your well-being and about the well-being of
your family and friends.

頑張ってください!



Kind regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 19:20:55 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:20:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.14 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.122055.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 14 March - Volume 01
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From: azoy <azoy at sunrise.ch>

Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (06) [EN]



Dear all,

Of course we're speechless, but how can we -can I - help?
How to express our sympathy and solidarity?

Regards
Jef [Seguin]



----------



From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (06) [EN]

Dear Yasuji-San:



Subject : LL-L Members News.

I repent not having personally extended my condolences to you & yours in
Japan. Please allow me to join with Ron & the rest on the List to this
purpose. My prayers are with you; be strong.



Yours Sincerely,

Mark



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 19:23:19 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:23:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.14 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.122319.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.13 (04) [EN-NL]

Leiw' Lowlanners,

dat Wuurd *backen *hett ok noch ein anner Bedüden.

*backen *1. backen. - 2. trocknen. -  *3. festkleben: **tau backen kamen, *zwar
veralt.; zu Schaden kommen.

*backig, backsig *Adj. klebrig: *de Fingern sünd em so backig.

**backsen *kleben, Intensivbildung zu *backen. *1. kleben: *de Snei/Schnei
backst *der Schnee klebt. - 2. mit der Hand schlagen: *hei hett em weck
backst  *er hat ihm eine Ohrfeige gehauen.

*Backs *m. Subst. zu  *backsen. *1. klebrige Masse: *dat Brot is all ein
Backs *das Brot ist klitschig. - 2. f. Ohrfeige: *wist 'ne Backs hemm?  *(jda,
de Mäkelborger fröögt ümmer ierst an, ob hei 'n Backs utdeil'n kann, wi
sünd  fründlich). - Sagwort: *Ik möt 'n anschläägschen Kopp hebben, säd de
Jung', don kreech/kreeg hei poor Backsen. -*  3. Haufen, kleine Menge: *'n
Backs Geld.

*Lit.: R. Herrmann-Winter, die sich aber auf die Literatur Wossidlo/Teuchert
bezog.

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*backsen *Intensiv von *backen. *1. kleben: *dat backst  *gleich *dat backt
an  *klebt. *Leihm backsen *den Lehm für die Zubereitung von Ziegeln kneten.
2. einen Schlag, insbesondere einen Backenstreich versetzen (*s.
Backs)*:*backsen
*schlagen mit der Hand. Zs..: *klammbacksen *lahm schlagen, Drohung: *di
will 'ck klammbacksen.*
B a c k s e r  Kleber in der Zusammensetzung (Zs.) *Tütenbackser*

Nu heff ick hier wat tausamen-backst, oewer leiwer back ick 'n Kauken.

So as ümmer.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 19:27:35 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:27:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.14 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.122735.0700.>

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From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (08) [EN]

Dear Pat:


Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Apologies for the late response to your letter (other events being uppermost
in mind).



I beg to object that the 'Aint done nothin' is internally contradictory, if
only for this reason: That I can anticipate the *need* for this very
structure to negate another negative sentence; an accusation, for example,
already couched in negative terms.



As in:

Father, "I sent you this morning to tidy your room, & you have done
nothing!"

Son, indignantly, "I haven't done nothing!"



Now if in the interests of lucid communication standard English needs to be
able to use this self-same structure, you may be sure that non-standard
English needs the same. Either the standard form must abandon it & craft
some laboured circumlocution to meet the need, or (as I know often to be the
case) those who use non-standard English must avoid the construction, or
avoid a klap!



See, I readily concede the cultural authority of recapitulated negation in
an *emphatic* negative sentence, but it is a special condition, as shown by
the fact that the recapitulation acquires momentum of its own, as in, "I
'ain't never done nothing..." & so on ad nausium.



You wrote:
If the purpose of the List is to explore language in an objective way using
the findings of linguistics, then there is nothing contradictory about I
ain't done nothin'. It's not standard English but aren't we exploring
language that is often seen as having no standards just because it isn't the
language of the court, of the capital, of the government?



Yrs as ever,

Mark

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 19:29:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:29:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.14 (04) [NL]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.122905.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar"

Beste Marcus, Henry e.a.,
Marcus: Nee, ik heb geen bewijs voor mijn geloof dat het LS-NL authentieker
is dan LS-DE. Dat geloof komt voort uit mijn zeer regelmatige contacten met
de 'man in de straat'. En ik geloof ook dat er hoe langer hoe meer een
groter verschil ontstaat tussen de empathische verhalen van
streektaalwetenschappers en de praktijk van alledag op straat. Vaker dan
andersom hoor ik een Duitse platspreker zeggen: dat jij dat (oude) woord nog
gebruikt! Dat is dan ook toevallig een taalliefhebber. Toevallig vorige week
bijv. nog het woord 'telen' wat bij ons heel gewoon is (D.: ziehen, Pflanzen
anbauen; Grimm: erzielen, tilian, teolian). Heb jij bewijs voor het
tegenovergestelde van mijn geloof?



Henry: in mijn beleving zijn het Twents en het Gronings (nog) de sterkste
LS-dialecten in Nederland. Toch blijf ik nog even volhouden dat het ook met
die twee snel achteruit gaat. Als servicemonteur ten tijde dat het aardgas
in opkomst was -zeg zo'n dertig jaar geleden- ging ik als servicemonteur
bijna huis aan huis en hoorde zowel in Groningen als Twente niet anders dan
dialect/streektaal. Ik kom nu nog heel veel op die zelfde plaatsen maar
constateer dat het dagelijks gebruik ten minste gehalveerd is. Momenteel kom
ik ten minste eens per maand in Twente en of ik nu bij een schrootboer kom
of op de Saxion Universiteit in Eanske, bijna altijd begin ik een gesprek in
dialect. Slechts zeer zelden (veel minder dan 50%) krijg ik spontaan
antwoord in het Twents.



Maar ook hier geldt m.i. het grote verschil tussen het empatisch lawaai van
enkele streektaalliefhebbers en de dagelijkse realiteit. Natuurlijk is het
waar dat er nog nooit zoveel boeken (en andere talige) uitingen in de
streektalen zijn verschenen als de laatste -zeg- dertig jaar. Helaas zijn
dit slechts een bescheiden aantal trommelaars die de echte muziek
overstemmen.
Het Fries heeft precies het zelfde probleem. Ondanks dat het Fries een
wettelijke bescherming geniet (er wordt momenteel zelfs gedacht aan een
grondwettelijke bescherming) hoor je het op straat veel minder (ook < 50%?)
dan dertig jaar geleden.



Ten slotte nog een praktijkvoorbeeld uit de Stellingwerven. Toen ik hier
naar de lagere (nu: basis) school ging (ca. 1953-1960) konden veel/de meeste
kinderen niet anders dan streektaal spreken. Twee jaar geleden wilden we
hier een film maken 'Et oolde schoelepad' en zochten vijf leerlingen van een
basisschool als acteur. We hebben  ruim dertig basisscholen benaderd maar
hebben geen vijf(!) kinderen kunnen vinden die 'fatsoenlijk' Stellingwerfs
kunnen spreken (laat staan schrijven, maar dit ter zijde). Dit ondanks de
laatste taaltelling in 2005 van dr. H. Bloemhoff die zegt dat er nog rond de
vijftig procent van de inwoners van Stellingwerf (Oost en West) het
Stellingwerfs kunnen spreken, zie:
http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellingwarfs.
Larie! Praote me d'r niet van...
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 21:07:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:07:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.14 (05) [NL]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.140705.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.14 (04) [NL]

From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>



Beste Marcus, Henry e.a.,


Marcus: Nee, ik heb geen bewijs voor mijn geloof dat het LS-NL authentieker
is dan LS-DE. Dat geloof komt voort uit mijn zeer regelmatige contacten met
de 'man in de straat'. En ik geloof ook dat er hoe langer hoe meer een
groter verschil ontstaat tussen de empathische verhalen van
streektaalwetenschappers en de praktijk van alledag op straat. Vaker dan
andersom hoor ik een Duitse platspreker zeggen: dat jij dat (oude) woord nog
gebruikt! Dat is dan ook toevallig een taalliefhebber. Toevallig vorige week
bijv. nog het woord 'telen' wat bij ons heel gewoon is (D.: ziehen, Pflanzen
anbauen; Grimm: erzielen, tilian, teolian). Heb jij bewijs voor het
tegenovergestelde van mijn geloof?



Nee. Ik geloof ook niet in het tegenovergesteld. Ik geloof dat beide kanten
afgeraakt zijn van de rechtop Sassies pad. De een kant nadert het
Nederlands, de andere kant nadert het Duits.

 Vaker dan andersom hoor ik een Duitse platspreker zeggen: dat jij dat
(oude) woord nog gebruikt!



Dat mag zo zijn, maar het gelt ook andersom. Enige tijd geleden heb ik (bij
mijn recherches voor www.plattmakers.de) het "*Woordenboekje van het
Deventersch dialect" *van W. Draaijer doorwerkt. Van voor tot achter. Het
boekje is geschreven in 1896. En ik was verbaasd hoeveel woorden er
instonden, de ik uit het Platduits kende, maar de ik bij het lezen van de
Nedersaksische Wikipedie en andere moderne boeken in het Nedersaksisch nooit
had aangetroffen.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 15 16:56:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 09:56:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.15 (01) [NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.MAR.2011.095638.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Marcus,

Jij schreef: Het boekje is geschreven in 1896. En ik was verbaasd hoeveel
woorden er instonden, de ik uit het Platduits kende, maar de ik bij het
lezen van de Nedersaksische Wikipedie en andere moderne boeken in het
Nedersaksisch nooit had aangetroffen.

Misschien is dat juist wel het beste bewijs dat het met het LS zo goed als
afgelopen is! Veel woorden die ruim een eeuw geleden blijkbaar nog wel in
gebruik waren, komen nu (bijna) niet meer voor. Natuurlijk heeft een
taalliefhebber een veel groter vocabulair dan de gemiddelde man in de
straat. Maar volgens mij moeten juist die laatsten een (streek)taal levendig
houden, en die mis ik hoe langer hoe meer, zowel in noord-Duitsland als in
noord- en oost-Nederland.

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 15 16:58:28 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 09:58:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.15 (02) [NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.MAR.2011.095828.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste Hanne, e.a.,

In oons Stellingwarfs Woordeboek van dr. H. Bloemhoff kowwe 6 bedudings
tegen van 'bakken':

1 - et bakken van brood, e.d.: knieperties wo'n bakt in et kniepertieiezer.

2 - deur verhitten geer en eetber maeken: een vissien bakken.

3 - deur verhitten hadde maeken: zokke stienen wo'n bakt.

4 - stevig vriezen: as 't d'r naachs goed in bakt, is 't morgens haneboken.

5 - intensief in de zunne liggen: ze liggen in de zunne te bakken.

6 - niet slaegen veur een examen: hi'j het d'r niks van bakt; hi'j is d'r
veur bakt.

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 15 23:39:30 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 16:39:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.15 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.MAR.2011.163930.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Etymologie ?

Best Lowlanners,

Dat künn je sien, dat ein von uns' Maaten mi verkloren kann, wo dat Leed in
Nedderland begäng is:

*Zing, lutje vogel, zing*

(tekst David Hartsema)

*Zing, lutje vogel, zing,
Ook aal kins doe ja nait tegen aal dij grote vogels aan
Zing, lutje vogel, zing,
Want t komt nait op grote snoavels aan
Ale rouken, ale oaksters komen mit heur grote bek
ale bomen hier bezetten, en t gruinlaand en t stek
ze lachen en ze kraaien ien t koor t hoogste laid
krekt asof der gain aander laid bestaait
Zing, lutje vogel, zing
Ook aal kins doe ja nooit tegen aal dij grote vogels aan
Zing, lutje vogel zing,
Want t komt nait op grote snoavels aan . . .

*(De annern Versen heff ick weglaten)

Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.15 (02) [NL]

Un ick mein ok "Beste Piet" un all' Lowlanners,

kiek einer an, wo sick uns Spraaken de Hand gäben.  Ick müßt gliek an den'n
Eickbom (Fritz Reuter)
denken, dor heit dat in'n iersten Vers:

Ick weit einen Eikbom, de steiht an de See,
De Nurdstorm, de brus't in sin Knäst,
Stolz reckt hei de mächtige Kron in de Höh;
So is dat all dusend Johr west;
Kein Minschenhand,
de hett em plant't,
*Hei reckt sick von Pommern bet Nedderland.**
*
Dank un  ein fründlich Gräuten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 17:37:23 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:37:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.16 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.103723.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Hannelore,
Ik begriep niet goed wat du meinst mit: '... wo dat Leed in Nedderland
begäng is'. Wat meint 'begäng'?
Disse David Hartsema hef wel zo'n 900 lieder en gedichten schreven
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hartsema
Zing, lutje vogel, zing is schreven in 't Grunnings.



Nuumt ji in Pommern een 'Eickbom' ok wel een 'Ekkelboom'? En kent ji dan ok
de uutdrokking: de ekkel vaalt niet ver van de boom (zo vader, zo zoon)?

Mit et lutje dopke en steeltje van zo'n ekkel kunnen wi vrouger mooi
'piepjerouken'.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 17:53:53 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:53:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.16 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.105353.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language varieties

Hanne, hest schrẹven:



Dat künn je sien, dat ein von uns' Maaten mi verkloren kann, wo dat Leed in
Nedderland begäng is:

*Zing, lutje vogel, zing*

(tekst David Hartsema)

*Zing, lutje vogel, zing,
Ook aal kins doe ja nait tegen aal dij grote vogels aan
Zing, lutje vogel, zing,
Want t komt nait op grote snoavels aan
Ale rouken, ale oaksters komen mit heur grote bek
ale bomen hier bezetten, en t gruinlaand en t stek
ze lachen en ze kraaien ien t koor t hoogste laid
krekt asof der gain aander laid bestaait
Zing, lutje vogel, zing
Ook aal kins doe ja nooit tegen aal dij grote vogels aan
Zing, lutje vogel zing,
Want t komt nait op grote snoavels aan . . .

*(De annern Versen heff ick weglaten)



Düt Leed is in ’n neddersassischen Dialekt vun de Provinz Grönnen
(Groningen) in’n Noordoosten vun de Nedderlannen, an de Grenz vun
Oostfreesland un dat Emsland, Neddersassen, Düütschland.

Düütsche Schriefwies’:

*Sing, lüttje Vogel, sing*

*Sing, lüttje Vogel, sing,
Ook al kinns du ja neit tẹgen all de grote Vogels an,
Sing, lüttje Vogel, sing,
Want ’t kommt neit op grote Snavels an.
Alle Roken, alle Aaksters kommen mit hör grote Beck
Alle Bomen hier besetten, en ’t Gröönland en ’t Steck.
Se lachen en se kreien in ’t Chor ’t hoogste Leid,
Kreckt as of der gein ander Leid besteiht.
Sing, lüttje Vogel, sing,
Ook al kinns du ja neit tẹ̣gen all de grote Vogels an,
Sing, lüttje Vogel, sing,
Want ’t kommt neit op grote Snavels an.
*
Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 20:56:55 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:56:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.135655.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 March - Volume 03
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language varieties



Dear Lowlanders,

Recently we discussed the not uncommon assumption that morphological
simplification equals deterioration.

As I did on previous occasions, I argued against that assumption, which I
assume to be particularly widespread in cultures and education systems in
which morphologically complex “classical” languages are glorified and thus
come to be deemed superior.

I and others explained that languages are very flexible, that there are
reasons for simplification, and that languages have ways of compensation for
them.

I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex
morphologies with time. I personally can think of no such example.

Thanks.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 22:03:02 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:03:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.150302.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Language varieties



> I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around,

> namely by acquiring more complex morphologies with time. I personally can
think of no such example.



I don't think my knowledge of specific languages is comprehensive enough to
answer the question or give any examples.

But you seem to be making the assertion that languages always simplify over
time.

This makes me want to ask further questions.

If languages always simplify over time, then are the earliest human
languages the most complex morphologically?

If the earliest human languages the most complex morphologically, then why?
Why would languages be created at their maximal morphological complexity? It
seems counterintuitive. Wouldn't you expect them to develop in a reasonably
simple form then become more morphologically complex before starting to
simplify? If they could become more complex in the past, then why don't they
now?

The only way I can see this happening is if languages (or the protolanguage)
started off relatively random, having random words coined for each bit of
shared human experience, and then organisation was gradually imposed on them
over time (maybe even a relatively short time), and the more difficult
aspects of early organisation then gradually simplifies as each generation
"misses the point" of such and such a construction, or branches come
together and erosion occurs with the resulting confusion and suchlike.

Organisation being imposed on chaos is in itself a simplification, so the
whole picture would be of languages being first chaotic, then organised,
then streamlined.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language varieties



Thanks, Sandy. Great question!



No, I do not assume that languages *begin* with utmost complexity. I have no
proof for this, but I do assume that at an early stage a language develops
morphological and in some cases morphophonological complexity, but that at
later stages, possibly by way of language contacts, there arises a perceived
need for simplification of a system that is perceived as unwieldy.

Why don’t we have proof of this? I believe it is because such early stages
cannot be traced because they belong to the distant past, before the age of
recording. Furthermore, morphological diversity among modern-day descendant
varieties can rarely, if at all, prove that a given simpler morphology
represents an earlier or later developmental stage as compared to more
complex morphologies in related varieties.

Perhaps the closest we can come to finding indications of morphologies and
morphophonologies first becoming complex and then simplified is in the
Altaic family of languages, especially among the Turkic languages. (The same
may be the case among the Uralic languages.) There are numerous members of
this group, and we also have records of now extinct varieties as well as of
historical varieties of surviving varieties. I have claimed that among the
Turkic languages previously separate bound morphemes (particles) developed
into clitics in some varieties and further developed into full suffixes in
other varieties. Turkic languages, like all Altaic languages, are of the
agglutinative type and have vowel harmony. A separate particle has its own
harmony, a clitic tends to obey consonantal assimilation but not vowel
harmony of the preceding word it modifies, and a suffix is
morphophonologically completely assimilated, i.e. integrated. And at a later
stage, vowel harmony may deteriorate, as for instance in Uzbek which came to
be adopted by large communities of previously Tajik (thus Iranian) speakers.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 23:51:10 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:51:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.165110.0700.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Beste Ron,



You wrote:

 I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex
morphologies with time. I personally can think of no such example.



Did Martin Luther not go that way with his Bible translation? I thought at
the time, the use of cases was on the way back, also in German, just like in
Dutch and English (especially the genitive). He decided though to remodel
German after Latin, which made the language more complex again...for
centuries and centuries.



I'm not sure, but maybe the same thing can happen anytime. If a certain
language acquires status (could be English these days), and language
architects in other (foreign) languages decide to "reformat" their own
language in order to make it sound more fashionable, you may very well end
up with a complex monster (even though English itself is grammatically
simple).



In short, methinks, internal evolution tends to lead to simplification,
whereas external influence necessitates two differing grammars to merge,
possibly creating lots of "exceptions".



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language varieties



Thanks, Luc.

Interesting thoughts there, especially the alleged case of Luther
deliberately (i.e. artificially) reintroducing complexity to “elevate”
German so it could stand up to the complexity of Latin.



In theory then, a morphologically relatively complex “supreme” language
could motivate speakers of other languages that develop in the shadow of the
“supreme” language to aspire to similar levels of complexity “at home,” so
to speak. Did I get that right?

Do you think that this could be why German is morphologically more complex
than Dutch, Low Saxon and Scandinavian, the latter few not having undergone
artificial “Latinophile intervention” of the Lutheran kind?



However, I am under the impression that under most circumstances language
contacts promote simplification. The Scandinavian languages are great
examples of this, if you compare them with Old Norse and Icelandic. It is
quite likely that this was triggered by massive Middle Saxon influences and
the eventual absorption of large numbers of Saxon speakers.

With regard to my response to Sandy’s point in the previous post, please let
me add the thought that these days we are unable to witness the birth and
early development of natural languages other than those whose geneses are
those of language contact, or “linguistic confluence,” so to speak.

Now, it may well be that in such cases we do get glimpses of early
“morphologicalizing” processes, such as in the numerous pidgins and creoles
of the world, most of which developed as a result of colonization. For
example, in Papua New Guinea’s English-based creole Tok Pisin
(Neo-Melanesian, http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/tokpisin-intro.php) you
can see how English-derived words are used to create grammatical markers and
also create a pronominal system that is more complex than the English one:



Past: *i bin* (< he been)

*Mipela i bin tok olsem. *(We spoke thus.)

Continuative: *i stap* (< he stop)

*Tripela i slip i stap. *(The three of them are sleeping.)

Perfective: *pinis* (< finish)

*Mi i lusim ki pinis. *(I lost the key.)

Future: *bai* (< by and by)

*Em bai ol i go long rum. *(They will go to their rooms.)



* *

*Singular*

*Dual*

*Trial*

*Plural*

*1st exclusive*

*mi*
(I)

*mitupela*
(he/she and I)

*mitripela*
(both of them, and I)

*mipela*
(all of them, and I)

*1st inclusive*

-

*yumitupela*
(thou and I)

*yumitripela*
(both of you, and I)

*yumipela* ~ *yumi*
(all of you, and I)

*2nd*

*yu*
(thou)

*yutupela*
(you two)

*yutripela*
(you three)

*yupela*
(you four or more)

*3rd*

*em*
(he/she)

*tupela*
(they two)

*tripela*
(they three)

*ol*
(they four or more)


[*mi* < me, yu < you, *tu* < two, *tri* < three, *pela* < fellow, *ol* <
all, *em* < him]



However, I strongly suspect that this use of initially foreign words for
grammatical marking did not arise out of a vacuum. Much rather, I believe
that the motivation was to replicate in this new intercultural medium
grammatical categories that existed within the native Melanesian languages,
categories that were considered essential in the cultures and thus in the
minds of the native population. In other words, mostly English-derived
vocabulary (with loans from German, Melanesian, Polynesian and Malay mixed
in) served to create a lingua franca that could perform all the fundamental
functions other known native languages could perform.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 23:52:33 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:52:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.16 (06) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.165233.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 March - Volume 06
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.16 (01) [NDS]

Hallo Piet,

ick will di gliek up dien Fraag de Antwuurt schriewen. Wat meint 'begäng' *?

*begäng *üblich, gebräuchlich, normal, usuell, gang und gäbe, landläufig.

*Ick wullt weiten, ob dat Leed "Zing, lutje vogel, zing" noch sungen ward.

In  "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern"  (Meck/Pom) heit dat Eikbom (hd. Eiche), un NL.
eikboom?

Bi uns gifft dat den'n Snack "De Appel föllt nich wied von'n Boom"

http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Der_Apfel_fällt_nicht_weit_vom_Stamm

Hier kannst dat ok noch in anner Spraaken läsen.

Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 18 01:17:29 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:17:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.17 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.MAR.2011.181729.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 17 March - Volume 01
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
 Subject: Help for Japan

Dear Lowlanners,



having been absent from the list for a time doesn't mean to be absent from
the world around me.

I've read the postings of our member Yasuji-san, and I asked him how we
could help. Of course I didn't get an answer - his problems are not the
list, at the moment.



Help! How can WE help?



If (and I just say: IF!) the radioactive contamination of settled regions in
Japan should progress the WHOLE WORLD must help - whithin days!!

In special young people MUST leave the Japanese islands, let me say, for
around half a year. They MUST escape from the first, heavy radio activity
which might fall out - escape asap!!!!

In Germany we have done so some 20 years ago (and later) with children of
Tschernobyl (much too late!).



So, my suggestion:

LL-L is a worldwide community of openminded people. I guess a lot of them is
able and willing to host a young boy or girl for some months. These could be
millions - being the future of Japan.

I shall offer my house to them; this evening I'll try to get in contact with
the consulate general of Japan in Hamburg, and furtheron I'll try to get the
governor of Lower Saxony (there are some good familiar and
political relations) into the boat.



My ex-wife and my son (16) agreed that they would appreciate a Japanese
youngster between 12 and 18 in our family.



But - we have to avoid bureaucracy, we have to ship around it, as well in
Japan as in our homelands. It could be very, very urgent!



Though money for the international organizations is necessary - please try
precautionally to establish something else in your hemisphere.



Thanks!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Members

Thank you for that, dear Jonny.

I have started a thread in this vein on Facebook, and hopefully people will
pass it on.

In the meantime I can report that I have also heard from our friend Tomoki
Minohara (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/minohara-en.php) and am happy to
report that he is all right.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 18 01:51:28 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:51:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.17 (02) [AF-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.MAR.2011.185128.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 17 March - Volume 02
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (04) [EN]

Hmm, Ron, a good question (and like all good questions, maybe one with NO
answer... or one with MANY answers???)

An old prof of mine, a certain Carleton Hodge, wrote a paper once upon a
time (I forget at present where it was published or even when) looking at
the morphological development of Egyptian -- from earliest records through
late Coptic... and he saw the development as being cyclical rather than
linear... with maybe a period of morphological simplification followed by
one of increasing complexity / moving from analytical to synthetic and back
again....

not being an Egyptologist (though i did at one time study Coptic), I am not
sure if in its long history we can find an indesputable counter example or
not...

mwm || U C > || mike || мика || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)

===========================================================
Senior Consultant
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
===========================================================

"I have become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)



----------



From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]

Dear Ron, Sandy, Luc & Co.



Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Ron wrote:

I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex
morphologies with time. I personally can think of no such example.



I can't, but I recall mentioning an observation on the subject that I read
somewhere in Bodmer's 'The Loom of Language'.



Well, I have hunted up the passage, & here goes:

He quotes Sir George Grierson who had charge of The Linguistic Survey of
India, who says:

  "The Outer Sub-branch (of Indo-Aryan venaculars) have gone a stage further
in linguistic evolution. They were once, in their Sanscrit form, synthetic;
then they passed through an analytic stage - some are passing through that
stage only now, and are, like Sindhi and Kashmiri, so to speak caught in the
act - and have again become synthetic by the incorporation of the auxiliary
words, used in the analytical stage, with the main words to which they which
they are attached...

p.411

The Loom of Language, *A Guide to Foreign Languages for the Home Student.*

*by *Frederick Bodmer

*edited & arranged by *Lancelot Hogben

George Allen & Unwin Ltd. *London** *1944



So the long experience of dialects evolved from Sanscrit show a cyclic
process, passing from synthetic, & by ablation becoming analytic followed
again by synthetic as the auxiliary words are incorporated into new forms,
to be absorbed, lost & replaced again by other auxiliary words. & so it
goes.



Yrs



Mark



----------



From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>

Subject: LL_L "Grammar" [EN]



Beste Laaglanders,



Sandy Fleming asked early in this thread:

“If languages always simplify over time, then are the earliest human
languages the most complex morphologically?”



I do not think so. I have had discussions with the San in Namibia on their
petroglyphs (10,000 years old), trying to make out what messages it
conveyed. As i understand it, it contains no grammar, but suggests a
diversity of semantics based on a central theme.



I think that grammar in signs emerged and become more complex to make sure
that one of the many messages persist.



Then, later, Ron wrote:

“However, I am under the impression that under most circumstances language
contacts promote simplification. The Scandinavian languages are great
examples of this, if you compare them with Old Norse and Icelandic. It is
quite likely that this was triggered by massive Middle Saxon influences and
the eventual absorption of large numbers of Saxon speakers.



With regard to my response to Sandy’s point in the previous post, please let
me add the thought that these days we are unable to witness the birth and
early development of natural languages other than those whose geneses are
those of language contact, or “linguistic confluence,” so to speak.



Now, it may well be that in such cases we do get glimpses of early
“morphologicalizing” processes, such as in the numerous pidgins and creoles
of the world, most of which developed as a result of colonization.”



Ron, I remember that in early days of Lowlands, we discussed this topic. I
stressed that Afrikaans is both the youngest of the Germanic languages and
also the least morphologically complex. In those days many argued that
Afrikaans is a pidgin or creole language. That argument is roughly 250 years
old, used by European linguists. Today i do not become mad anymore at such
simple arguments.



The first upsetting fact is that although Afrikaners (Vryburgers,
Grensboere, Voortrekkers, Republikeine) cloud read and write in Dutch, they
preferred to speak in Afrikaans. Even worse, linguists of Europe was blind
to this fact, unable to recognise spoken Afrikaans as a fully fledged
language able to express all thoughts like any European language.



The second upsetting fact is that speakers of European languages (Dutch,
French, German, Portugese), African Languages (San, several Xhoi, few
Banthu) and Asian languages (Malaysian) is that they preferred Afrikaans to
Dutch (before 1800) and later to English (after 1800) to communicate across
cultural complexities. Afrikaans did not only support a Germanic culture,
but also acted as a lingua franca for European, African and Asian Cultures.



Biological evolution into more complexity is not the brain child of Darwin.
It was observed and mentioned by the ancient Greeks and Chinese, the Arabs
in the middel ages and the Europeans during the enlightenment. Linnaeus (the
father of biological taxonomy) was perhaps the pinnacle of that development.
What Darwin did, was also to add a mechanism by which it happened: natural
selection in terms of environmental dangers.



In the evolution of natural languages, it is almost the opposite. The
fittest languages to survive is the simplest ones. Here the utmost goal is
not survival, but agility and interconnectivity. Neither is a spontaneous
phenomenon, but have to be gained by work. In this case Darwinian evolution
is useless since it focus only on spontaneous changes.



There is a far more encompassing viewpoint on how systems develop into more
as well as less complexity. Furthermore, it is based on empirical
observations. It is called Irreversible Self-organization and was introduced
by Ilya Progigine. It involves the law of entropy production, usually called
the second law of thermodynamics.



Very few people know how far beyond thermodynamics it stretches. The reason
is that it is mentally intimidating because of the complexity involved. I
have argued on several sites that it commands/allows both complexity and
simplicity. However, my writings seems to be too dense for most thinkers to
understand it.



Evolution towards complexity is favoured by open systems whereas closed
systems can lead to simplicity. Please note what Luc writes:

“In short, methinks, internal evolution tends to lead to simplification,
whereas external influence necessitates two differing grammars to merge,
possibly creating lots of "exceptions".”



What a great statement by someone who know, perhaps nothing, of (1) the law
of entropy production and (2) irreversible self-organization as its outcome.



As laaglanders wil weet hoe taalbevorming (“language morphology”) deur (1)
en (2) plaasvind, sal hulle maar eers Afrikaans moet leer en daarna met
Google gaan soek wat ek daaroor te skryf het. Gebruik “ontluiker”, “woes” en
“OS” as trefwoorde.



Ek is nie moedswillig nie. Ek is waagmoedig. Eenvoudige Afrikaans is in
staat om die mees ingewikkelde begrippe te weergee. Ek stel nie belang
daarin om ander mense in Engels te bedien nie. Ek het ‘n passie om my eie
taal lewendig te hou.



Mooi loop

At de Lange

(Ontluiker)



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thank you for sharing your great ideas and thoughts, dear At, Mark and Mike!

Lowlanders, if you want to keep up with this thread and wonder about the
types of language structures we are talking about, please read up on them
here:

Isolating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolating_language
Synthetic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_language
     Polysynthetic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language
     Fusional: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language
     Agglutinative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language

Dear At, I tend to agree that “simplified languages” tend to be more
flexible and thereby more viable as intercultural linguae francae, as shown
in the cases of both Afrikaans and English. And their simplification tends
to be the result of contacts. The chicken or the egg?

However, “simplification” is really a very misleading word. The morphologies
may be simplified, but languages compensate, as I remarked on an earlier
occasion. In learning English and Afrikaans as a second language people have
to put a lot of effort into syntax at first and then into idiomatic
expressions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 18 17:37:37 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:37:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.MAR.2011.103737.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]

I believe that simplification is often related to an increasingly logical,
analytical view of the world: In early times people viewed a rock that was
being thrown to be in some way a different "thing" from the same rock when
it was sitting on the ground, and the person throwing the rock was different
from the one having it thrown at them. You therefore need somehow different
words.



The idea of expressing "rock-being-thrown-ness" and
"rock-sitting-on-the-ground-ness" by simply re-arranging the same few
simpler words is a development of logic.



It is difficult to imagine the reverse process occurring, so that may
explain why grammar doesn't get more complex.



Also, the world of more ancient people, with simpler technologies, simply
didn't have the same amount of things in them to name. As bronze and iron,
ploughs and microchips turn up, you are probably less inclined give each of
them half a dozen different names according to their circumstances.



Paul



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (04) [EN]

Sandy wrote:

"If languages always simplify over time, then are the earliest human
languages the most complex morphologically?

If the earliest human languages the most complex morphologically, then why?
Why would languages be created at their maximal morphological complexity? It
seems counterintuitive. Wouldn't you expect them to develop in a reasonably
simple form then become more morphologically complex before starting to
simplify? If they could become more complex in the past, then why don't they
now?"



It depends on when we're talking about language evolving. Logically you
would expect that, and I believe it did - but not in modern humans. By the
time anything like us turns up, language has become fully developed. That
development involved, I believe, coming up with vocalisations for more and
more things, but with no real rationale or classification. Thus virtually
every thing, in every situation, needed its own word or words. That results
in an extremely complex situation in the language, that further development
of thought and ideas allows one to progressively simplify and rationalise.



Paul

Derby

England



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]



From: Hellinckx Luc
<luc.hellinckx at gmail.com<http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>>


Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Beste Ron,



You wrote:

I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex
morphologies with time. I personally can think of no such example.



Did Martin Luther not go that way with his Bible translation? I thought at
the time, the use of cases was on the way back, also in German, just like in
Dutch and English (especially the genitive). He decided though to remodel
German after Latin, which made the language more complex again...for
centuries and centuries.



This sounds exceptionally unlikely to me, and there is no evidence that
pre-Luther High German was less inflected.



All older Germanic languages, including Old English, are highly inflected,
and the inflections of each can be related to the other showing a common
ancestor. If Luther had deliberatley invented modern German cases they would
directly reflect latin ones - why no Vocative or Ablative for example?



And what would induce an entire nation (actually many nations) to take this
complex system up, when the vast majority were illiterate anyway? in
particular, why would the Catholic South have inflected German, if it were
the invention of a heretical Protestant Northerner?



My interest in mediaeval swordsmanship leads me to many German
"Fechtbuecher" from the Middle Ages. The works of Von Danzig, Liechtenauer,
Ringeck and others pre-date the Reformation - and all use inflected German.



Paul

Derby

England



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Language varieties



> However, I strongly suspect that this use of initially foreign words for
grammatical marking did not arise out of a vacuum. Much rather, I believe
that the motivation was to replicate in this new intercultural medium
grammatical categories that existed within the native Melanesian languages,
categories that were considered essential in the cultures and thus in the
minds of the native population. In other words, mostly English-derived
vocabulary (with loans from German, Melanesian, Polynesian and Malay mixed
in) served to create a lingua franca that could perform all the fundamental
functions other known native languages could perform.


Having had time to sleep on it, I'm not so sure that increases in complexity
are all that rare. The Celtic languages seem to have examples of increases
in morphophonological complexity, if I'm right in thinking that the features
observed weren't in ProtoIndoEuropean itself.

Welsh seems pervaded with changes to vowel and consonant morphemes which,
although they become fixed internally to words, still show a pattern of
familiar changes throughout the vocabulary of the language, and at the
beginnings of words interact with the previous words in way that have become
tied into the grammar of the language.

Plurals in Welsh are also fairly chaotic, and Welsh has nouns where the root
form is the plural and the inflected form the singular, so we get:

plant "children"
plentyn "child" (note the change a > e, a system of vowel and consonant
changes like this pervades the whole language)
i plant "to the child"
i blentyn "to the children" (note the change p > b which doesn't occur in
the plural).

Many of these changes are hard to fathom and mainly just have to be learned
"by ear".

In the dialects of the English southwest, there also seems to be quite a bit
of grammatical complexity not found in earlier English. For example, there's
a system of gender where uncountable nouns are neuter (salt, sugar, sand),
objects that are normally stationary are masculine (clocks, houses, trees),
and objects that have a means of propulsion are feminine (cats, cars,
ships).

If these exanmples are valid, then considering the smallness of my sample
space, this sort of thing may be quite common.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Language varieties



> With regard to my response to Sandy’s point in the previous post, please
let me add the thought that these days we are unable to witness the birth
and early development of natural languages other than those whose geneses
are those of language contact, or “linguistic confluence,” so to speak.



Not true!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Sayyid_Bedouin_Sign_Language


Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks for all the interesting responses!

Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:

Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are more
suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner
to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner’s
working knowledge.

Correct or false, and why?

Regards, and happy Purim!
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 18 21:31:59 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:31:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.MAR.2011.143159.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 March - Volume 02
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

>
> Subject: Grammar


> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign
learner to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a
beginner’s working knowledge.



I see Walloons have quite some difficulty with learning Dutch and German,
though both are national languages in Belgium. So most of them prefer
English as second language in school.

Other factors though may play a role as the international status of English
and some anti-feelings.

And those who learnt Dutch or German during several years are reluctant to
expose themself with using it, while the ones who studied English have no
refrain, even while talking with a strong French accent.

Regards,

Roger



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]

>The idea of expressing "rock-being-thrown-ness" and
"rock-sitting-on-the-ground-ness" by simply re-arranging the same few
simpler words is a development of logic.



> It is difficult to imagine the reverse process occurring, so that may
explain why grammar doesn't get more complex.



> Also, the world of more ancient people, with simpler technologies, simply
didn't have the same amount of things in them to name. As bronze and iron,
ploughs and microchips turn up, you are probably less inclined give each of
them half a dozen different names according to their circumstances.



This really isn't what determines language complexity. Up until recently
indigenous Australians did have a relatively simple lifestyle, but their
languages are some of the most complex in the world. In fact to fit a
technologically-driven language change theory to the facts, you'd probably
have to concern yourself more with explaining why peoples with simpler
lifestyles tend to have more complex languages!



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar

> Thanks for all the interesting responses!

> Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:

> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign
learner to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a
beginner’s working knowledge.

> Correct or false, and why?

Allow to me eschew the law of the excluded middle on this one  :)



There might be some truth in it but I don't see why German (say) isn't just
as good as a lingua franca: beginners make a dog's breakfast of both
languages, but as a bazaar language this is acceptable. And when you get
past the beginner stage, you can just as easily get as good at a complex
language as you could at a "simple" one, since what we're referring to here
as "simple" languages are only superficially simple, really.



I'd say the choice of a lingua franca will be due to political and economic,
rather than linguistic, factors.



The dearth of inflection structures in English and its laissez faire
approach to orthography does seem to me to make choice of English as a
lingua franca fortunate (in some ways) as other-cultural concepts such as
pizza, llamas and feng shui can just be taken up in English in their
original spellings or any suitable transliteration. But fortunate as this
might be (in some ways), it's not the _reason_ English has become a lingua
franca.



Sandy Fleming

http://scotstext.org/



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar 19 20:36:15 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:36:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.19 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.MAR.2011.133615.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 March - Volume 01
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============================== =======================



From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.17 (01) [EN]

Hallo dear Jonny san, Last evening I sent my belated reply to your E-mail to
me. It was rather difficuklt to get exact information in a short time. Sorry
for my having made  you irritating.



Except the area of the problematic "Atomkrafwerke", no one will try to leave
their hometown. Farther, there will be no need to leave Tokyo area. This is
the first experience for all of us, not? So, it is not yet sure say, what it
would happen, But, there would not be the sendond Tschernobyl. It is said
that these Atomkraftwerke sind systematically different fro those in Russia.
And the situation and cause of the accident is also different.

 I think there are enough materials to help their life for the time being.
The most important this is how to reconstract the completely washed away
cities, and winter, coldness keeps us from working effectively and injure
health. Tents, maybe, cannot be use for sleeping, the snow covers the ground
most of the strickend places and and it it maybe difficult to find flat
ground to pitch tent.



The main roads are not still safe for lorries to carry the materials to the
stricken places. Mail harbours can be used again.



The Red Cross should be the most believale society to handle disaster
relief. I wonder if the local government, except prefectures, can work to
accept helps from "Ausland".



Thals heartly deep sympathy for the tragic disaster in Tohoku (Northeast
Japan). area.



Best regards,



Yasuji Waki, Chiba Pref.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar 19 20:43:24 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:43:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.MAR.2011.134324.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 19 March - Volume 02
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]
        and LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.17 (02) (AF-EN]

Dear Lowlanders,

Ron wrote: Let mi bounce another tentative assertion off you:
          Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans)
are more suitable as
          liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner to
deal with complex
          morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner's working
knowledge.
          Correct or false, and why?

I find this right (correct) because I am a 'advanced' beginner (English).

I have read all types of linguistic structures and they in a file stored.

Thanks Ron!

Greetings.

Hanne



----------



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

>
> Subject: Grammar


> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign
learner to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a
beginner’s working knowledge.



I see Walloons have quite some difficulty with learning Dutch and German,
though both are national languages in Belgium. So most of them prefer
English as second language in school.

Other factors though may play a role as the international status of English
and some anti-feelings.

And those who learnt Dutch or German during several years are reluctant to
expose themself with using it, while the ones who studied English have no
refrain, even while talking with a strong French accent.

Regards,

Roger



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]

>The idea of expressing "rock-being-thrown-ness" and
"rock-sitting-on-the-ground-ness" by simply re-arranging the same few
simpler words is a development of logic.



> It is difficult to imagine the reverse process occurring, so that may
explain why grammar doesn't get more complex.



> Also, the world of more ancient people, with simpler technologies, simply
didn't have the same amount of things in them to name. As bronze and iron,
ploughs and microchips turn up, you are probably less inclined give each of
them half a dozen different names according to their circumstances.



This really isn't what determines language complexity. Up until recently
indigenous Australians did have a relatively simple lifestyle, but their
languages are some of the most complex in the world. In fact to fit a
technologically-driven language change theory to the facts, you'd probably
have to concern yourself more with explaining why peoples with simpler
lifestyles tend to have more complex languages!



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar

> Thanks for all the interesting responses!

> Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:

> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign
learner to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a
beginner’s working knowledge.

> Correct or false, and why?

Allow to me eschew the law of the excluded middle on this one :)



There might be some truth in it but I don't see why German (say) isn't just
as good as a lingua franca: beginners make a dog's breakfast of both
languages, but as a bazaar language this is acceptable. And when you get
past the beginner stage, you can just as easily get as good at a complex
language as you could at a "simple" one, since what we're referring to here
as "simple" languages are only superficially simple, really.



I'd say the choice of a lingua franca will be due to political and economic,
rather than linguistic, factors.



The dearth of inflection structures in English and its laissez faire
approach to orthography does seem to me to make choice of English as a
lingua franca fortunate (in some ways) as other-cultural concepts such as
pizza, llamas and feng shui can just be taken up in English in their
original spellings or any suitable transliteration. But fortunate as this
might be (in some ways), it's not the _reason_ English has become a lingua
franca.



Sandy Fleming

http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]



From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks for all the interesting responses!

Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:

Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are more
suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner
to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner’s
working knowledge.

Correct or false, and why?

Regards, and happy Purim!
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



It certainly seems to be the case that linga francae do have simpler grammar
than languages not shared by others. This is especially noticeable in Papua
New Guinea in the case of Hiri (formerly "Police") Motu, the Papuan lingua
franca, though Tok Pisin has begun to eroded its influence in recent years.



That is an interesting case because it exists side-by-side with its parent
language of "true" Motu, i.e. the speech of the Motu-Koita people. It and
its closerelatives all along the south Papuan coast have an inflexion sytem
of verb conjugations and noun cases similar in structure to Indo-European
languages. These are completely ignored in Hiri Motu.



The language seems to predate European colonial presence; it evolved from
the Motu voyages up to the Papuan coast to trade pottery for sago (Hiri
means "trade") though Australian Patrol Officers in the former Papuan
territory spread it far beyond the Hiri area.



Paul

Derby

England



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]



From: Sandy Fleming
<fleemin at live.co.uk<http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fleemin at live.co.uk>
>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

 "This really isn't what determines language complexity. Up until recently
indigenous Australians did have a relatively simple lifestyle, but their
languages are some of the most complex in the world. In fact to fit a
technologically-driven language change theory to the facts, you'd probably
have to concern yourself more with explaining why peoples with simpler
lifestyles tend to have more complex languages!"



Actually Sandy, if you read my post, that is precisely what I was saying -
older languages and simpler lifestyles are associated with more complex
languages. That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated the
language gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope.
Even our brains can only hold so much!



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar 19 22:18:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:18:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.MAR.2011.151801.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 19 March - Volume 03
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (02) [EN]

from heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

 Ron/ Reinhard wrote


That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated the language
gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope. Even
our brains can only hold so much!

 I wonder whether it is a case of 'life getting more complicated' rather
a language becoming less isolated.

As different languages come into contact with each other, they create a
'working language' i.e. a stilted (grammatically) but fluent ( of
expression and thought) means of communication. Think of the sailors'
languages that have arisen among the merchant navies of the world  or
the trading 'pidgins' many of which have developed into permanent
creoles.

I take Sandy's point that English is not the global lingua franca
through reason of its simplicity - but through its imperial history
..... HOWEVER it may well have remained in post-imperial situations
because of the ease of learning / speaking simple English.  Despite the
difficulties with orthography simple English is more easily attained
than most other languages ( Higher level English or literary English
are something else!)

The reason is that English has moved a long way but not totally from an
inflected language towards an invariable

so that any one can learn to describe any object very quickly just by
learning the vocabulary

a big clock    a small clock  the small clock  a round clock  my new
clock     except for the possibility of adding an 's' to clock to make
it plural, all these are invariable: no gender  no number agreements
we don;t say   mys news clocks

The verb system is more difficult to handle hence the number of errors
made by learners: an over use of I do ....

as a result of learning through question and answer maybe  " Do you
like singing?" " Yes I do like singing"   What do you do in your spare
time?" " I do like singing"

But even the English verb system is an improvement on say most Germanic
or Romance systems:

look looks looking looked + auxiliaries      very simple to learn:
horrendously difficult to apply correctly in every circumstance

write writes  wrote  written + auxiliaries   still not too hard to
learn

I believe languages simplify in or after contact with other languages
especially if one or the other is dominant and of a different
grammatical system.

Heather

Worcester UK

after a long absence / silence



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Hi, Heather!

It’s great to hear from you again, and those are thought-provoking points
you make above.

However, please let me point out that the person you quoted was not I but
our trusty friend Paul Finlow-Bates.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (where genuine springtime abounds this Purim weekend)



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 20 20:28:18 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:28:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.20 (02) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.20.MAR.2011.132818.0700.>

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From: pbarrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (03) [EN]

John McWhorter tackles this very well in two popular books: The Power of
Babel and Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue and more academically in Language
Interrupted.



This issue has two parts for me: the notion that complexity equals complex
morphology only when word formation, syntax, etc. can complicate things
immensely e.g. Chinese.......

and that people who live in small groups with constant face-to-face contact
tend to complexify the language, adding all sorts of bells and whistles and
losing few b/c they talk to each other, whereas once new folks move into the
neighborhood, they don't have time for all that.

Pat Barrett  pbarrett at cox.net
http://ideas.lang-learn.us/barrett.php



trying to conform to the rules of the list with a limping computer.

I believe languages simplify in or after contact with other languages
especially if one or the other is dominant and of a different
grammatical system.

Heather



-----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (02) [EN]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]



> Actually Sandy, if you read my post, that is precisely what I was saying -
older languages and simpler lifestyles are associated with more complex
languages. That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated the
language gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope.
Even our brains can only hold so much!



In which case, I agree! Yes, you make a good point that if we're going to
shovel a hundred new words a day into a language as seems to be happening
with English, then not having to figure out how to work each one into a
complex grammatical matrix might be a big help.



Sandy Fleming

http://scotstext.org/



-----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (02) [EN]

 > From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]



> Actually Sandy, if you read my post, that is precisely what I was saying -
older languages and simpler lifestyles are associated with more complex
languages. That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated the
language gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope.
Even our brains can only hold so much!



I was wondering how far English could be easily simplified, in order to make
room for even more Internet jargon :)



An obvious way would be to get rid of any inflections. This isn't necessary
an easy simplification, but I think for the -s endings of various sorts it's
fairly unproblematic.



We could define an "easy" simplification as one that can be used without
adding anything else and without changing the syntax.



In Black English (as far as I know it from reading The Color Purple and
listening to old blues singers) there are already some simplifications of
this sort. From an old blues song:



"I'd rather be the devil, to be that woman man."



You see that we can say "that woman man" for "that woman's man" and "that
man woman" for "that man's woman": the genitive ending is redundant because
the syntax already expresses this (Welsh has also dropped the genitive
ending by the same principle).



We could also extend the "sheep"-style plural of English throughout the
language. And we could drop the -s ending on third person verbs, because
what use is it anyway?



We could drop some difficult but not really useful words, for example, the
articles "a" and "the". We could take another trick out of the Russian book
and drop the copula as well.



OK, let's try some Shakespeare!



Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow

Creep in this petty pace from day to day,

And all our yesterday have lighted fool

Way to dusty death.

Out, out! Brief candle! Life but walking shadow,

Poor player, that strut and fret him hour upon stage,

And then heard no more.

It a tale, told by idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.



Another simplification would be to get rid of all prepositions, as these are
very difficult for learners in any language. I think it's a more difficult
simplification but BSL doesn't have any, so it might be possible to get rid
of the more abstract prepositions (although prepositions expressing time and
location probably can't be transferred to spoken languages). Still it would
be more difficult for native speakers to get used to, though it would make
it a lot easier for non-natives who are learnign from scratch.



Another would be to eradicate gender pronouns (just use "it" for
"he/she/it"). It's not a big change, though it would result in past works
having to be somewhat translated because of the loss of contextual
information.



Sandy Fleming

http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.20 (01) [NL-EN]

 Het heugt mij, dat door m'n spontaan meningsuiting, tien dagen geleden
(LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]), over een terloops aanmerking van
Piet Bult over Reinhards voorstel van de hedendaagse verval van de verleden
tijd (-vorm) in het Noordnedersaksisch *zo'n heel belangrijke taalkundige
discussie-vadem* was aangestoten. Ik wil daar ook niet te alles wat zeggen,
ook al overschrijdt iets mijn horizont van weten en belang. Niettemin zal ik
(onder) op Reinhard/Rons eerste repliek wat zeggen.

Ik voor mijn deel blijf (voor nu) met het Nederlands - sorry for those who
are not able to read it, *für Deutsche empfehle ich zur Erleichterung:*
http://www.uitmuntend.de -, omdat ik het ook best passend vind als
"middelspraak" tussen native Hoogduits-, Nederlands- (etc.) en Engelstalige,
temeer waar het ook over het vervallende Nederduits gaat. (En als
begin-tweedejaars in het Nederlands moet ik het nog vlijtig oefenen … ;-)

(Natuurlijk is dat geen pleidooi voor de volledige overname van een minder
krachtige Nederlandse schrijfwijs met 'oe' voor [u, u:] - maar 'u, uu' voor
[œ, y:], 'eu' voor [œ], 'ie' voor [i:] enz. *voor het Nederduits*. Nee, daar
houd ik meer van de *geschreven umlaute ä, ö, ü* enz. - Andere regelingen
als die voor de Nls. enkel- en duwwelschrijving van self- en medeklinkers
zijn mijns inziens maar heel nuttig …)

Vooruitlopend nog eerst een citaat tot de historische grond van het
afsterven van de originelen (=Middel)Nederduitse dialecten, zie ook
dbnl.org/tekst/toor004gesc01_01 <http://tinyurl.com/45qtwcw>
(bron: M.C. van den Toorn, W. Pijnenburg, J.A. van Leuvensteijn en J.M. van
der Horst (red.), Geschiedenis van de Nederlandse taal. Amsterdam University
Press, Amsterdam 1997):

"In het Continentaal-Westgermaanse gebied zouden uiteindelijk vier
taalgebieden ontstaan: het Friese, het Nederduitse, het Hoogduitse en het
Nederlandse. De grootste verandering die daarin later nog zou optreden is de
*samensmelting van het Nederduitse en het Hoogduitse gebied tot een Duits
taalgebied,* niet zozeer door een verandering van de spreektaalgewoonten van
de betrokkenen, als wel *door de geleidelijke ‘overdakking’ van het
Nederduitse gebied door de zich ontwikkelende (Hoog)duitse standaardtaal en
de daarmee gepaard gaande teloorgang van de standaardtaalfuncties van het
Nederduits.* Ook dat wijst op het belang van de standaardtaal en de
‘overdakking’ bij het definiëren van het begrip ‘taalgebied’. Ten aanzien
van de hedendaagse situatie is de enige werkbare definitie van ‘taalgebied’:
de verzameling van plaatsen waar éénzelfde taal de functie van standaardtaal
vervult." En verder:

"De vooral sociologisch verklaarbare evolutie dat *het gebruik van dialect
en ‘Umgangssprache’ in meer en meer omstandigheden door meer en meer mensen
door het gebruik van de standaardtaal wordt vervangen, geeft uiteindelijk de
doodsteek* aan de ‘geleidelijke taalovergang’ in dat gebied en leidt tot de
situatie met een vrij scherpe taalgrens tussen Nederlands en Duits, die
vrijwel volledig met de politieke (rijks)grens samenvalt."

Alhoewel de al eeuwenoude overdakking van Nederduits door Hoogduits niet het
verdwenen van Nederduitse restanten in een klap betekent, zo is het toch de
oorzaak van de verlies van Middelsaksische vormen en begrippen en voor het
vervangen door Hoogduitse; m.a.w. het afsterven van het Nederduits.

Am 11.03.11 23:22, schrieb Reinhard F. Hahn:

Joachim agreed with him [i. e. Piet Bult - jo], saying something like “a
dialect group that doesn’t keep its tenses apart is bound to disappear.”

I regard this never proven hypothesis as being based upon the superseded,
classic-humanities-based (i.e. Greek- and Latin-fed) assumptions that ...



(1) older forms are better than newer forms,
(2) more complex morphology is better than simple morphology


In der daad, waarschijnlijk is mijn klassieke taalvorming een oorzaak voor
mijn opvatting. M.a.w. mijn ouders hebben schuld eraan omdat zij me op
Karels des Groten Latijnschool (het Gymnasium Carolinum te Osnabrugge)
geschikt hadden. Maar afgezien ervan geloof ik wel, dat b.v. het Latijn meer
precies (en tegelijk beknopter) is dan Engels, Neder(duits)lands en vele
moderne talen. Het is zeker niet de enige, maar ten minst een oorzaak voor
het eeuwenlang gebruik van het Latijn als geletterden- en wetenschapstaal,
als in Europa allang gewoonlijk in de volkstalen geschreven werd.

Maar niettemin vind ik het Hoogduits, het Nederlands en het Middelnederduits
(te zijner tijd) pakweg gelijkwaardig bruikbaar. Over het Afrikaans mag ik
niet oordelen - ik wens onze geëngageerde LL-vrienden het best welslagen van
jouw inzet!
Maar het geldt alleen voor zowat als standaardtalen (en zij het voor en
bepaald bevolkingsgroep of bewoond region), niet voor hedendaags Nederduits
als alleen folkloristische liefhebberij van een verdwenende minderheid …

 Furthermore, you, Joachim, yourself pointed out that the Westphalian
dialects of Low Saxon do retain the old preterit *-de* and are now
endangered. In fact, they are more endangered than are the Northern Low
Saxon dialects, most of which have discarded the preterit *-de*.



Dat zijn twee verschillende paar schoen. De grotere en langere behoud van de
Middelsaksische vormen in het Westfaals is gewis niet de oorzaak van zijn
welhaast verdwenen. Zo als - *toegegeven* - ook niet de grotere
vormenverlies voor het verdwenen van het Noordnedersaksisch of het
Nederduits algemeen. *De oorzaak is veelmeer, dat (z. ook het citaat boven)
de originele volkstaal niet eeuwig kan overleven beneden een - noodwendig te
beheersende - structureel andere standaardtaal.* En de verschil van
origineel (=Middel-) Nederduits tegen Hoog/=Standaardduits is veeruit groter
dan die tussen (NL-)Nedersaksisch (etc.) en het oudere of ook het hedendaags
Standaard-Nederlands, meen ik.

 *R. Hahn verder:*
In response to me having pointed out that deletion of morphemic markers is
common among the Lowlands languages, Joachim write above:

*Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse talen
gewoon, maar sommige verliezen zijn toe wijd gaande, ook al in het
standaard-Nederlands*

 My translation:

 *The loss of this and that may be common in the Lowlands languages, but
some losses go too far, even in standard Dutch*

Question: How much is “too far,” and who gets to decide what’s “too far”?
Surely it’s for the speakers to decide. In other words, it’s for the
language itself to decide what losses are permissible and with what losses
it can and cannot cope.


Dat hangt ervan af, wat soort sprekers ze zijn: voor de sprekers van zowat
als standaardtalen (en zij het voor en bepaald bevolkingsgroep of bewoond
region) - ja, maar … (de taal zelf is geen onderwerp/subject, dat kon
beslissen ;-).

 *R. Hahn:* Vital (i.e., not already highly moribund) languages have ways of
“repairing” themselves in cases of what we consider loss. Being today’s
"strongest" and predominant language, English is a prime example. It dealt
with morphemic atrophy by, among other ways, making its syntax static,
inflexible, thus compensating for the loss of morphemic object marking (by
assigning subject and object to specific syntactic slots).


Maar de beschaafde, complexere, wetenschappelijke taal word erdoor niet
makkelijker, eerder ingewikkelder …

Als gezegd, het mijne was een spontaan meningsuiting, waar ik niet genoeg
tussen objectiviteit een persoonlijke smaak heb geschift (ontkoppeld). Het
is nu maar zo, dat ik talen als het Italiaans etc. en oudere als Oudsaksisch
en Oudhoogduits vanwege de klankrijkdom mooier vind dan afgeslotene en in de
klanken plat gegooiden Nieuw-Germaanse.

 Met echt-westfäölsken »Goudgaun!«

joachim

--


Kreimer-de Fries

Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 21 17:12:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:12:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.101243.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Delectabels"

Some time ago I asked for help on this list for finding a recipee for "onion
bricks". I got it once served in a restaurant downtown Evanston, IL, around
1982 and I never found it somewhere afterwards. Thanks for all comments on
the list, but apparently nobody recognized it really.



Since I have to be at an exhibition ("ProMat") in Chicago this week, I
planned this Sunday for doing some research.



In the plane my neighbour, actually from Baltimore, told me it was served in
his region in a restaurant chain "Bleu... and someting I forgot". This gave
me some hope.



Saturday evening I did some prospective walks in the blocks around the
convention center South of Chicago. Many blocks have most houses "for sale"
or "for leased" with all windows nailed with wooden cover plates. A Burger
King was still left operational in the area. I ordered a value meal with
fish, as well as onion rings. They actually replaced the fries with onion
rings, instead of giving the rings as apetizer or side dish, what I'm
used to get.



Sunday morning I toke the light rail to Evanston for seeing if could find
back the restaurant of 1982. However it was raining heavily and
intermiittently. I only could get one street far from the downtown station
"Davis", could recover and dry a bit in a Barnes & Noble at the end of that
street, returned in heavy rain to the station, with a stop at at little
restaurant "Dixie Kitchen". I had a "Southern Sampler" for lunch, a variety
of tasty stews and red beans over a layer of rice, for 10.95 (+ drink, taxes
and tip).



Since I couldn't do very much, I returned to the hotel and googled a bit. I
found:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney's

"The Onion Brick
The onion brick is created with cutting fresh onions, a mix of secret
ingredients, and flour. It can be ordered as a full brick or half."

"Hackney's is a chain of Irish family restaurants and bars located in the
Chicago suburbs and the city."
"Hackney's has received numerous favorable reviews from Chicago Tribune,
Food Network, and Chicago Sun Times."

So it still exists and I should find it in Chicago.

On the menu our brick has an other name:

http://www.hackneys.net/fileadmin/pdf/menus/regular/hackneys-printers-menu.pdf

Hackney's Original French Fried Onions,

our signature dish, named one of the top 3 in the USA

full order 6.95 half order 5.95



This evening I went to their restaurant at the corner of Polk Street and
Dearborn street in Printer Row, just South of the Loop. The window at Polk
street is nailed with a wooden sheet cover. The front at Dearborn street
urgently needs an upgrade. I hesitated but finally entered. Inside it was
very much alive at the bar as well as at the eatery tables. A completely
white skinned public of about 100 filled the space completely.



Inside the waiter confirmed the "French Fried Onions" are standing for a
"onion brick". So I ondered a full one.



What I got was a block of onions of 20 cm long by 10 x 10 cm. The call it an
appetizer, but if one manages to eat this all, it is impossible to have it
followed by any main dish ("entree" they call it in the US).



It was less black caramelized than the one of 1982, the rings were spiccled
wit some dots of browned flour (and not encapsulated in a complete crust as
the ones of Burger King). The whole block could easily been broken into
pieces, while the other one of 1982 needed to be hammered;



Anyhow it was delicious.

Regards,



Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 21 17:14:54 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:14:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.21 (02) [EN]
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.19 (01) [EN]

*Dear Yasuji-san,*



*it's very gratifying to hear from you (sorry for my late answer!), and to
hear that your self-sacrificing engineers seem to re-obtain control over the
damaged reactors. Let us all hope and pray that no more setbacks will occure
in this matter, and that the wind will continue to blow to the sea!*



*Yes, indeed, all reports in the press say that at the moment foreign
helpers will not be able to reach the devastated areas. The Japanese Red
Cross maybe the best organization being able to help.*

* *

*With great respect for all the people having been killed** **I'm wishing
you and your fellow people a lot of luck and a beneficial progress in
managing all the desasters within the next days and weeks.*



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 21 17:17:51 2011
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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:17:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.21 (03) [EN]
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From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" [EN]

Beste Laaglanders.



All the discussions so far on the morphological complexity/simplicity of
languages referred to natural languages. But what about artificial languages
such as computer languages. Can we learn something of them to deepen our
understanding of the evolution/devolution in natural languages?

I will try to give a short account. Because of the brevity, some confusion
may arise. I have deliberately kept out the grouping of bits (switching
units with values 0-off or 1-on) into chuncks like 4, 8, 16, 32 and now even
64. It is enough to say that it makes use of parallel (team) units, thus
speading up processing.

A computer consists of the following essential modules:

(1) hardware: PS (power supply), mother board, CPU (central processing
unit), BIOS (basic input output system), RAM (random access memory), HD
(hard disk), screen plus video card, keyboard, mouse and printer.

All these modules have a history of evolution. For example, the first fixed
CPU ever was the ENIAC (1946). It needed a big room to fit into. Modern giga
CPUs fit in the palm of a hand and can compute billions more of instructions
per second than the ENIAC.

(2) Software: OS (operating system), programming languages, dedicated
programs (like word processor, spread sheet, graphical design, image
enhancing) and protection programs (like firewall, antivirus and recovery),

In 1966 i had my first experience of main frame computers (IBM). There were
not any programs available. The language i used was an ancient Fortran tuned
by additional assembly commands. The hardware did not have a screen or
keyboard. Communication between me and the computer was by means of a
lengthy punch tape.

Looking at all these essential modules, it is surprising that the
programming languages is merely a speck in the whole picture. Thinking of
the complex neurological system, language proficiency is merely a small
region in the cortex of te brain. But it has a paramount influence on the
motoric nerves and thus how a person willfully acts.

There are four levels of computer languages (and possibly a fifth in the
making):



(1) Machine language:

It is used to command the CPU (Central Processing Unit) to perform digital
functions (arithmetic, logic). Its input and output is a continuous string
of 0's and 1's like  1101000111010111000101011001100.....  Every kind of CPU
needed its own machine language because of a different physical
architecture.

Deciphering the machine code is like finding the structure in terms of atoms
of an extremely complex enzyme like polymerase. I had such an experience by
learning how to comprehend Spanish writings with merely a dictionary and
grammar book at hand. There was no Spanish speaking person in the large town
where i lived. It took me 5 months to translate a short letter from South
America. Computer programmers feel even worse when they have to unravel
machine code. So the next higher level was inevitable.

Here is an example for anyone knowing very little of computers. Think of
this contribution. I change all capital letters into small letters, leave
out all spaces between words, all full stops ending sentences and all line
breakings between paragraphs. The result is a very long, continuous string a
Latin letters. Try to figure out what i wanted to communicate.



(2) assembler languages:

The long string of 0's and 1's is grouped into many assemble units. They are
either data units (like simple nouns) or procedural units (like verbs). They
get identified by three letter acronyms like PUT, GET, STO, etc. They form
the vocabulary of the language. Any program is then constructed by stringing
these assembly units together according to a defined syntax.  The syntax
form the grammar of the language. Avoiding superficial and inefficient units
becomes important so that streamlining is required. It is simplification!

The identification of assemble units (“words”) does not make the 0's and 1's
in a unit obsolete, but only more manageable for the human programmer. The
complexity of the 01's string is merely shifted tacitly into the background.
But it is still very difficult to make holistic sense what the program can
and will do.

Again the next higher level was inevitable. Creating words like data (nouns)
and procedures (verbs) was not enough

Here is an example for language boffins. It is like telling something using
only simple nouns and verbs with no other words qualifying them. I used this
technique to communicate with communities in wilderness regions which had
only a rudiment knowledge of Afrikaans or English, but a complex knowledge
of their mother tongue.



(3) Syntax languages:

Whereas assembler languages make use of machine language in the background,
a syntax language makes use of an assembler language in the background. It
is almost as if a biological morphogenesis (in Goethe’s sense) is taking
place. Examples of such program languages are Cobol, C, Basic and Pascal.
Getting rid of redundancy, inefficiency and contradictions get even more
important since they increase like pests This simplify the increased
complexity somewhat..



(4) Category languages:

Examples of such languages are C++, C#, Java and probably Perl. There is not
a general agreement on the name for these languages. They are often called
objected orientated languages or task orientated languages. The general idea
is to make the units even more complex than in 3rd level languages to meet
the superior intellectual needs of programmers and improve on the speed of
programming. Much of the syntactical units and all of the assembly units and
machine units are pushed into the background. Mediocre programmers have many
difficulties with these languages since they cannot match the advanced
specifications of such a language.

Their task is very much like someone speaking a creole language trying to
render something in a complex morphological language such as Latin. It is a
herculean task. Furthermore, when not using Latin daily, one quickly lose
proficiency in using it.



(5) almost natural languages:

The idea here is to speak a natural language such that the computer can
translate it into an artificial language conforming to the machine
requirements. Some advancements have been made, but by far not enough to
make such a language functionally available. The simple reason is that a
computer cannot learn creatively by itself. Creative learning requires
spontaneity with freedom. This is what all kinds of computers (hardware and
software) lacks completely in. They do not have minds and nobody knows how
to create that in them.

It is almost like missionaries going to a country with many languages, but
not one with a written form. There hundreds of examples in South America,
Africa and Oceania. First the missionary has to learn the indigenous
language in colloquial sense. Then he has to identify explicitly the
vocabulary vocabulary and grammar of it. Eventually, after many years, he
can start transcribing the Bible with many trials and errors, correcting
where needed. It is exactly here where Afrikaans missionaries, made an
incredible contribution compared to their European counterparts in much
greater numbers. Why? Passion for the Word and knowledge of Afrikaans as the
simplest Germanic language.



Now, after some 60 years of programming languages of different levels, some
patterns have become very clear the more complex a language becomes: the
ability for all hardware and software to work seamlessly (wholeness), the
distinction between being and becoming, the context (system) for which any
particular program was created, the ability for various programs to interact
with integrity, to keep the program between manageable limits, to provide as
much as possible for diversity in tasks and to keep the system open for new
innovations in hardware and software.

It seems as if the evolution of computer languages has become extremely
complex. However, the most complex of all is the machine language at lowest
level without which the computer cannot operate. Its like the vowels and
consonants without which a spoken natural language cannot operate. The
higher the level of complexity, the more of it gets hidden in the background
for the end user. The foreground seems to be very complex for the novice
user. However, after the higher level of language which has been mastered,
the simpler and faster it becomes to create very complex programs seen from
the hidden level of machine language.

What is really difficult to understand, is how all these developments in
software (as well as hardware) integrate with each other into one whole with
a formal foreground and a tacit background. From level to level it involves
a simplification from the descriptive to the intuitive, from mechanics to
art.



I want to end with a word of caution. Natural languages make use of a living
neurological system. Computer languages make use of an inanimate digital
electronic system. Avoid mixing them or substituting insights in each
carelessly. The 250,000 years of evolution caused humans to be far more
complex that the 2,500 years development of machines.



At de lange

Pretoria.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 21 18:42:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:42:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.114243.0700.>

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (01) [EN]

Roger, I think what the person from Baltimore told you about was the “onion
ring loaf” served at the Red Hot & Blue chain of Memphis-style barbecue
restaurants in the Washington, DC area. It’s really good, as is everything
else on their menu. I ought to know – my wife and I live right around the
corner from one here in Laurel, and we try to eat there once a week!



Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, MD



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 00:11:37 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:11:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.21 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.171137.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.17 (01) [EN]

Dear Jonny,

That is a very nice idea and I hope you will succeed and if I can somehow
assist I would very much like to. We also feel very much with the people in
Japan, when I see my little son I try to imagine how worried all Japanese
parents must be that their children will be affected by the invisible
radiation, it is a very frightening szenario. I hope our world-leaders
consider seriously whether there might not be better alternatives than
nuclear power, beginning with using our resources more efficient and gently.


I also would like to take the opportunity to congratualate the people of
Tunesia and Egypt for their successsful peaceful revolutions and I hope it
will achieve freedom, equality and justice. I hope they will show the world
that Islam, freedom and tolerance can work together like any other religion
can. This might also be a new dawn of peace in the Middle East and hopefully
includes the chance of lasting peace and friendship between Israel and its
neighbours. But I am deeply worried about the situation in Lybia, utterances
of hate and revenge, to threaten violance and no mercy will not achieve
anything other but stiff resistence by those under threat and it is locking
the door for any peaceful solution. I hope for the people of Lybia that the
leader of the Tripolis government will come to senses and realize that hate
and destruction is no solution to anyone anywhere.

Groeten ut Amersfoort, NL
Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 00:13:27 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:13:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.171327.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (01) [EN]

On 22/03/2011, at 3:12 AM, Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <
roger.thijs at euro-support.be> wrote:



Subject: LL-L "Delectabels"

Some time ago I asked for help on this list for finding a recipee for "onion
bricks". I got it once served in a restaurant downtown Evanston, IL, around
1982 and I never found it somewhere afterwards. Thanks for all comments on
the list, but apparently nobody recognized it really.



Hi Roger I checked on this via BIG OVEN an application containing thousands
of recipes on my iPAD TOUCH. NOGO alas.



Undaunted I have forwarded the enquiry to the FOODWINE List of which I am an
active member and also to some cluey friends in VA.

I'll send details of anything they come up with to this List. If they can't
I doubt anybody can.



Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized.
–Albert Einstein



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 00:15:23 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:15:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.03.21 (07) [NL]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.171523.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste Laaglandse Fonologen Morfologen,

Veel wetenschappers hebben reeds boeken vol geschreven over fonologie en
morfologie (F&M), denk aan Noam Chomsky *(Sound pattern of English)*, Joan
B. Hooper *(An introduction to natural generative phonology)*, Paul
Kiparsky, Fritz Zwicky en vele anderen. Zelfs de F&M van het Stellingwerfs
is breedvoerig beschreven in een proefschrift van dr. H. Bloemhoff: *"fonologie
en morfologie van het Stellingwerfs: een toetsing van de natuurlijke
generatieve fonologie"*. In die zin kan ik dan ook weinig toevoegen aan deze
discussie maar F&M, taal en computers hebben toevallig mijn grote interesse
(en dus heb ik een mening).



Telkens verbaas ik mij over de pathetische waarheden van veel
wetenschappers. Vaak worden die waarheden evenwel enige tijd later ontzenuwd
door andere, nieuwe waarheden. Zo kreeg ook de Standaard Generatieve
Fonologie (SGF) als tegenhanger de Natuurlijk Generatieve Fonologie (NGF).
Toch blijf ik het zien als het werpen van een dobbelsteen. Zelfs als je
honderdduizend keer de dobbelsteen werpt en de uitkomsten analyseert, dan
nog zul je de volgende worp niet met enige zekerheid kunnen voorspellen.
Bestudering van F&M geeft slechts een beeld van taalontwikkeling in de
*voltooid verleden tijd*. Ongetwijfeld zijn daar achteraf patronen in te
herkennen maar F&M is naar mijn bescheiden mening op het moment van een
verschuiving afhankelijk van ontelbare factoren en aspecten (en soms van
maar 1!).



Het - vanuit technisch oogpunt bekeken zeer eenvoudig maar desalniettemin -
beroemdste werk van bijvoorbeeld Piet Mondriaan was vast niet zo bekend
geworden als hij niet op het juiste moment op de juiste plaats was en de
juiste personen ontmoette. De laatste 250 jaar zijn nieuwe (toepassingen
van) woorden veelal ontstaan door industrialisatie en wetenschap, en komt
ook de F&M daardoor in een stroomversnelling. (Nieuwe) Woorden of toepassing
van woorden met betrekking tot computertechnologie kwamen/komen vooral van
IBM en later van Microsoft met een snufje Apple. De F&M van een kleine
hechte gemeenschap zal de afgelopen honderden jaren vast niet erg spannend
zijn geweest.



Beste At: Mijn begrip van Engels gaat niet veel verder dan vakantie-Engels
en dus begrijp ik niet alles tot in detail wat je bedoelt te zeggen met de
(vergelijkings) parallel van computertalen en natuurlijke talen. Volgens mij
zijn die twee niet te vergelijken. Zowel de eerste generatie machinetaal als
de huidige vierde generatietalen zijn in essentie nog precies het zelfde. De
hogere talen worden slechts teruggevormd (vertaald) tot machinetaal, een
reeks van nullen en enen, true of not true, schakelaar aan of uit. Deze en
andere vormen van vertalen hebben volgens mij niets vandoen met F&M.



De ontwikkeling van computertalen is meer in de orde van het uitvoerig en
letterlijk *beschrijven* van een taak of object (1ste generatie) tot het
verkort slechts *benoemen* van een taak of object (4de generatie). In de
eerste generatie moest je een fiets beschrijven als een frame met twee
achterelkaar geplaatste wielen, twee trappers, een ketting en een stuur. In
de vierde generatie is de beschrijving van een fiets als benoemd object
'fiets' weliswaar reeds bekend maar heeft nog steeds de zelfde onderliggende
onderdelen.



Fonologie kan in beginsel slechts beschreven worden tussen twee mensen met
de zelfde moedertaal. Als een derde persoon zich in het gesprek zal mengen
is het fonologisch (taal)gedrag van die derde persoon niet te voorspellen.
Deze fonologie kent naast de taalkundige ook vele factoren en aspecten die
niet direct met taal te maken hebben. Denk in dit verband ook aan het
'Oostindisch doof' zijn als ik ergens geen zin in heb (en het niet wil
verstaan) of mij juist meer in andermans dialect verbuig omdat ik hem graag
wat wil verkopen (een sfeer scheppen van onderlinge verbondenheid). Wij
kennen hier een tv-reclame: 't ken net. In het Fries betekent dit: het
kan/gaat *niet*. In het Nederlands betekent dit: het kan/gaat net *wel*.
Momenteel wordt de Nederlandse taal - vooal in de grote steden - behoorlijk
vervormd door de aanwezigheid van allochtone Nederlanders en ontstaat
spontaan een geheel eigen 'straattaal', vaak ook door morfologie van
bestaande Nederlandse woorden. En wat te denken van SMS-taal?



Wellicht is politiek (geld en macht) de grootste boosdoener om tot een
Lingua Franca te komen. Hoe lang bestaat het Esperanto al, en breekt het
toch niet echt door. Dat het Engels momenteel de Lingua Franca van de
westerse wereld is, is voornamelijk te danken aan militaire, economische,
culturele, wetenschappelijke en politieke invloed van het Britse Rijk in de
18de, 19de en 20ste eeuw (bron: wikipedia). Had het Spaans eigenlijk niet
meer voor de hand gelegen? Een huidig aspect in de F&M is ook de - vooral
uit Amerika overgewaaide - rechtsgeleerdheid (interpretatie, belezenheid en
ontwikkeling van rechtsgeleerde woorden en grammaticale zinsopbouw. Die,
vaak complexe opbouw en heel preciese keuze van woorden en klemtonen maakt
soms het verschil tussen schuldig en onschuldig.



Als eerstvolgende wereldtaal denk ik dat het Chinees een goede kans maakt.
Lijkt me trouwens ook een prachtige taal om te leren en te gebruiken.

Q: Weet iemand van de LL-List hoe de fonologie en morfologie zich in het
Chinees voltrekt?



Tot slot een klassieke morf: okay, oké of o.k., een LS morf: stall of stal,
en ost of oost.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 16:29:00 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:29:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.03.22 (01) [NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.092900.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.03.21 (07) [NL]

Hallo Piet un all' Lowlanners,

Piet hett anfraagt:
Q: Weet iemand van de LL-List hoe de fonologie en morfologie zich in het
Chinees voltrejt?

Ick heff wat funn', künn je sien, dat wier ein lütt' Hülp, kiek mal :

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klassisches_Chinesisch

Väl Glück!

Hanne



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Phonology



Piet:



Weet iemand van de LL-List hoe de fonologie en morfologie zich in het
Chinees voltrejt?



Ja, maar het is een erg groot en ingewikkeld onderwerp, en het is alleen
relevant in dit forum als we ervan iets belangrijk kunnen leren met
betrekking tot de Lowlands-talen.



In een notedop: fonologische vereenvoudiging vereiste het scheppen van
samengestelde woorden.



Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 16:31:14 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:31:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.22 (02) [EN]
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members"

Beste Helge,



You wrote:

I also would like to take the opportunity to congratualate the people of
Tunesia and Egypt for their successsful peaceful revolutions and I hope it
will achieve freedom, equality and justice.



OK, the people in Tunesia got rid of Ben Ali...but now we may end up with
him ;=)



Rumor has it that the former Tunesian president intends to relocate to my
backyard so to speak. To Relegem (Asse) more precisely (where I was born).
Some of his family members already live around here and Ben Ali would look
for asylum:



Zine El Abidine Ben Ali chercher l'asile en Belgique - منتديات
تونيزيـا سات<http://www.tunisia-sat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1633452>



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 16:33:49 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:33:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2011.03.22 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.093349.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 03
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From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

http://whispernthunder.org/Woman_of_Two_Worlds.html

The story of a Scots Irish - Native American lady who became the USA's top
ballerina...

Tomás Ó Cárthaigh

@ Billie... shared thos wonderful link with the Lowlands
Listserve<http://lowlands-l.net/>and a couple of Ulster Scots
listserves



*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace"** *



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 16:36:08 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:36:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.22 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.093608.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 04
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (06) [EN]

On 22/03/2011, at 10:13 AM, om Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>wrote:

 Undaunted I have forwarded the enquiry to the FOODWINE List of which I am
an active member and also to some cluey friends in VA.

I'll send details of anything they come up with to this List. If they can't
I doubt anybody can.

And already a harvest is coming in....

One friend responded with three websites which MAY cover what you are
after....


http://allrecipes.com//Recipe/blooming-onion-and-dipping-sauce/Detail.aspx<http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/blooming-onion-and-dipping-sauce/Detail.aspx>

http://allrecipes.com//Recipe/blooming-onion/Detail.aspx<http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/blooming-onion/Detail.aspx>

http://www.kitchenlink.com/cookbooks/2002/0452275873_2.html



Another responded

Might be very thin slices of onions, lightly breaded,
and deep fried in a rectangular fry basket. When turned out
and served it looks like a loaf or brick.
Several places in Chicago area make them.
Hackney’s, Chicago suburbs, was famous for theirs.
Usually called onion loaves or baskets if I recall..
Corkey’s BBQ in Memphis area also serves them.

*******

Another...

Onion bricks happened, the story goes, when a bunch of onion stuck together
in the rectangular deep fry basket. The restaurant called it an onion brick
and it became a hit. One onion brick will be placed in the middle of the
table for four or more people too pull off strands of onion to munch on.

*********

My VAsperts offered recipes if wanted I conformed I did and will forward
what I receive,



Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized.
–Albert Einstein



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 17:11:06 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:11:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (05) [NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.101106.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 05
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Floralia"

Beste Laaglanders,
Het is voorjaar (Stell.: meitied) en dus een vraag over de lentebloem bij
uitstek. In het (Westerlauwers) Fries noemen wij de wilde narcis *(Narcissus
pseudonarcissus)* gewoonlijk een 'titelroas'. In het Stellingwerfs een
'tietelroze' (ook wel: tieteloze, tiedeloos, tiedloze, tiedeloze, tieteloze,
tudeldozen, meitiedsbloeme en paoskebloeme). De bloem ontspruit uit een
bol, hoort tot de *Amaryllidaceae* familie en is hier een typische
stinzenplaant (boerderijplant).



Q: Ik ben nieuwsgierig waar die naam 'titelroas' en var. eigenlijk vandaan
komt. Any ideas..?

Deutsch: Gelbe Narzisse

Dansk: Påskelilje

English: wild daffodil or Lent lily

Frans: narcisse jaune

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf
Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Bedankt, beste Piet.



Hier zijn mijn bijdragen:



   - Botanisch: *Narcissus pseudonarcissus*
   - Nedersaksisch (Duitsland): *Oosterklocken, Oostertrumpeet,
   Zittelröösch(en), Zittlöösch(en), Zettlöösch(en), Zitsch*
   - Duits: falscher Narzissus, gelbe Narzisse, Märzenbecher, Osterglocke,
   Osterglöckchen, Trompetennarzissus
   - Yiddish: geler nartzis (געלער נאַרציס)



De oorsprong van *tiet-*, *tietel-*, *zittel-* enz. is mij onbekend.



Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 17:42:16 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:42:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (06) [NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.104216.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 06
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From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (05) [NL]

Dag Piet,

Misschien heeft het eerste lid _tietel_ te maken met het woord _tuit_. Dus
het zou een tuitroos kunnen zijn, in de voorstelling van de bedenkers van
het woord. De corona van een narcis heeft immers een opvallende tuit of
toeter.

In Belgisch Limburg vind ik het woord _tetel_ en _teutel_, dat 'tuit' of
'penis' betekent.

Bestaan _tietel_ of _tudel_ ook als losse woorden in het Nedersaksisch?

Groeten,

Marcel.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Leuk idee, Marcel!



Middensaksisch: *tute* > tüte (> Duits *Tüte*) > Tüüt (papierzak)



Ook wel *Tute > Tuut* (Trompet) met dezelfde oorsprong



Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 20:27:17 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 13:27:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (07) [NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.132717.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 07
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From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (06) [NL]



Dag Reinhard!

Ja, dat is zo'n leuk woord. In de stad Groningen hoor ik ook 'tuut' waar ik
'zak(je)' zou zeggen.

Een typisch geval van ontronding of misschien juist ronding zou hier
beschreven kunnen worden. Tietel, tudel, tetel, enz.

Wat is de oorspronkelijke vorm? Tuut/tuit/toet(er)? Of is het misschien
terug te voeren tot _tiet_ , 'borst'?

Groeten,

Marcel.



----------



From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (06) [NL]



Dag Piet, Reinhard,



Eigenlijk hoeven we de oplossing voor ´tietelroos´ en ´tudelroos´ niet zo
heel ver te zoeken, als we ´- el´ vervangen met ´-er´.

Dan krijgen we ´toeterroos´, wat niet bestaat, maar wat wel uitdrukt wat
mijn indruk van het woord is.



Een toeter is in het Nederlands namelijk een hoornvormig instrument, waarmee
een toetend geluid wordt voortgebracht. Dus dat kan een trompet zijn, zoals
jij ook zegt bij de verschillende namen voor de narcis, Reinhard.



In het Afrikaans kent men, overigens, naast ´narsis´ ook ´affodil´ en
´narsing´. Interessant; met zo´n nasaal, plotseling. ´Net
interessantheidshalwe.´



Groeten,



Marcel.



----------



From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (05) [NL]


From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Floralia"

Beste Laaglanders,
Het is voorjaar (Stell.: meitied) en dus een vraag over de lentebloem bij
uitstek. In het (Westerlauwers) Fries noemen wij de wilde narcis *(Narcissus
pseudonarcissus)* gewoonlijk een 'titelroas'. In het Stellingwerfs een
'tietelroze' (ook wel: tieteloze, tiedeloos, tiedloze, tiedeloze, tieteloze,
tudeldozen, meitiedsbloeme en paoskebloeme). De bloem ontspruit uit een
bol, hoort tot de *Amaryllidaceae* familie en is hier een typische
stinzenplaant (boerderijplant).



Q: Ik ben nieuwsgierig waar die naam 'titelroas' en var. eigenlijk vandaan
komt. Any ideas..?

Deutsch: Gelbe Narzisse

Dansk: Påskelilje

English: wild daffodil or Lent lily

Frans: narcisse jaune

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf
Piet Bult



Neffens it WFT (http://gtb.inl.nl/?owner=WFT) :



 *de eerste twee vormen zijn volksetymologische vervormd tot pseudocomposita
waarvan het tweede lid de plantennaam Fries *roas* is; Nederlands *tijloos*
,Duits *Zeitlose.



It giet dus om in folksetymologyske ferfoarming; der wurdt gjin boarne
neamd, dat ik nim oan dat it giet om eigen ûndersyk fan 'e Fryske Akademy.



Henno Brandsma



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymologie" 2011.03.22 (05) [NL]

Vörweg ein Fräuhjohrsgräuten ut Swerin.

Dor kümmt uns jüst de "Osterblaum" taupass (gerade recht).

DUDEN 7: *Narzisse:* Der seit dem 16. Jh. belegte Name der als Gartenblume
beliebten, stark duftenden Zwiebelpflanze ist aus *lat. *narcissus entlehnt,
das seinerseits aus *griech. *nárkissos übernommen ist. Es handelt sich
dabei wohl um ein Wanderwort *ägäischen *Ursprungs, das dann im
*Griech. *volksetymologisch
an *griech. *nárkē "Krampf; Lähmung, Erstarrung" angeschlossen wurde (wegen
des intensiven, betäubenden Duftes der Pflanze; vgl.  *Narkose).*

Un wat de DUDEN uns weiten lött, dat gellt also ok för de *gäle *Blaum:

http://www.uni-protokolle.de/Lexikon/Gelbe_Narzisse.html

So jichtensbi näumt: weiße Narzisse:

http://www.giftpflanzen.com/narcissus_poeticus.html

Man näumt de gäle Blaum up Hochdüütsch: *Osterglocken.

*De plattdüütsche Nam' von 'Annemone' *Osterblaum *Lit.: R. Herrmann-Winter

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 16:53:51 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:53:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.23 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.095351.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 01
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.22 (02) [EN]



Leeve Luc,

hm, perhaps you should start demonstrating.....

But that is something I say jokingly until Gaddafi ends up in my home
village in Sleswick-Holsten...

Groeten, Helge



----------



From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.22 (02) [EN]



Luc,


From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

> Rumor has it that the former Tunesian president intends to relocate to my
> backyard so to speak. To Relegem (Asse) more precisely (where I was born).
> Some of his family members already live around here and Ben Ali would look
> for asylum:


take heart! an d action!

Your post reminds me of the old days (1983/4 it must've been)... we were
living in the Makiki neighbourhood (halfway between Honolulu proper and
Manoa where Univ of Hawai'i is located) and the Marcos's moved in just mauka
up the valley.... but that lasted just a few months as many of the residents
started picketing (some against having bandits in the neighbourhood, others
just against the heavy increase in traffic, what with all the Marcos
sychophants making their pilgrimages to see Emelda's shoes or whatever)...
end result is that they moved... still on the island, but at least to
somebody else's neighbourhood ;-)

mwm || U C > || mike || мика  || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)

===========================================================
Senior Consultant
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
===========================================================

"I have become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 16:57:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:57:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (02) [NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.095741.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 01
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymologie" 2011.03.22 (07) [NDS-NL]

Marcel schreew an Piet un Reinhard:


Een toeter is in het Nederlands namelijk een hoornvormig instrument, waarmee
een toetend geluid wordt voortgebracht. Dus dat kan een trompet zijn,
zoals jij ook zegt bij de verschillende namen voor de narcis, Reinhard.



Dat gifft sogor de "Trompeterblume" (Trumpeiterblaum ?):



http://www.google.de/images?hl=de&rlz=1G1ACAW_DEDE409&q=trompetenblume&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=U9GJTdrXDIimhAf6pYGkDg&ved=0CEwQsAQ

Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 17:01:13 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 10:01:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.23 (03) [AF-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.100113.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 03
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From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" [AF, NE]

Beste Laaglanders,

Piet Bult skryf:

*“Beste At: Mijn begrip van Engels gaat niet veel verder dan vakantie_Engels
en dus begrijp ik niet alles tot in detail wat je bedoelt te zeggen met de
(vergelijkings) parallel van computertalen en natuurlijke talen. Volgens mij
zijn die twee niet te vergelijken. Zowel de eerste generatie machinetaal als
de huidige vierde generatietalen zijn in essentie nog precies het zelfde. De
hogere talen worden slechts teruggevormd (vertaald) tot machinetaal, een
reeks van nullen en enen, true of not true, schakelaar aan of uit. Deze en
andere vormen van vertalen hebben volgens mij niets vandoen met F&M. *“



Beste Piet,

“Computer” Rekenaar Tale (RT) en “Natural” Natuurlike Tale (NT) kan nooit
GELYKes wees nie. RT het nie ‘n fonologie nie!

Maar hulle kan wel verGELYK word. Die rede is dat albei die doel het om te
kan kommunikeer.

Ek het beklemtoon dat my oorsig van RT te kort is om aan alles daarin reg te
laat geskied. My doel was om die spel tussen eenvoud (“simplicity”) en
meervoud (“complexity”) uit te lig.

Ek dink nie dat die eerste geslag RT en vierde geslag RT self in essensie
dieselfde is nie. Vir die REKENAAR is hulle wel dieselfde: ‘n string van 0'e
en 1'e wat die Sentrale Verwerker (SV, “Central Processing Unit”, CPU)
ingaan en uitkom.

Maar vir die MENS is hulle ooglopend verskillend. Vanaf die eerste tot
vierde geslag (en heel waarskynlik verder) word hulle al meer mensliker. Dit
is om elektroniese skakelaars al hoe meer in te span as neurologiese
blitsers.

Ongelukkig het die sielkunde in die begin van die 1900's, veral deur Freud,
‘n vreeslike ding gedoen. Die brein se funksies is verdeel in die onbewuste
en die bewuste. Goethe en Polanyi het my gehelp om dit te te begryp en
oorkom. Daar is eerder vlakke van bewustheid.

Goethe het beklemtoon dat bewustheid met ervaring as die laagste begin.
Ervaring van die mens kan vergelyk word met die masjientaal van die rekenaar

Polanyi het beklemtoon dat ervaring ontluik in stomkennis (“tacit
knowledge”. Dit is die tweede vlak van bewustheid. Hy het dit weergee in sy
beroemde/berugte uitdrukking “we know know more than we can tell”.Ervaringe
skuif in die agtergrond en stomkennis kom tevore. Dit kan vergelyk word met
die tweede vlak van RT,  “assembly language”.

Ek beklemtoon dat stomkennis ontluik in kunstige kennis wat ook bekend is as
die vormlike (“formal”) kennis. Dit is die derde vlak van bewussyn. Daar is
baie soorte kunste (vormlikes). Dit strek van die voete (soos dans) en
vingers (soos skryf) tot die kop (soos praat en gesig trek).

Sintaktiese tale by rekenaars (3de vlak) en natuurlike tale by mense (derde
vlak) kan met mekaar vergelyk word.

Die vierde vlak van bewussyn is wysheid. Kategorie RT en wyse gesegdes
behoort tot dieselfde vlak. Min mense dink ten volle wyslik. Die wat dit kan
doen, kan met een sin baie ander mense se denke dramaties beïnvloed,
Vergelyk dit nou met die klik van ‘n muis op ‘n program beskikbaar.
Onmiddelik stel die rekenaar ‘n woordverwerker beskikbaar in die plek van ‘n
ander toepassing soos ‘n teken program.



Beste Piet, niemand anders hoef soos ek te dink nie. Daar is besliste redes
waarom ek so dink. Maar niemand anders hoef daarin belang te stel nie. Maar
een ding staan soos ‘n paal bo water:

‘n Mens se passie bepaal wat hy/sy doen.

Rekenaars het nie passies nie. (Waarom nie??). Maar mense kan met rekenaars
hulle passies daarin beleef.

Doen honderde miljoene mense dit nie reeds nie?

Iewers in die toekoms sal ons kan skryf” biljoene mense leef hulle passies
deur middel van rekenaars uit”.

Besef laaglanders regtig hoe rekenaars mense in staat gaan stel om die
wêreld te verander in die 21ste eeu? Daar is ‘n rolprent wat ek nooit sal
kan vergeet nie: “War Games” - ‘n kind wat die wêreld verander.

Die ingewikkeldheid van tale se morfologie is dus nie sommer net ‘n
akademiese oefening nie.



Mooi loop.

At de Lange



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 18:34:09 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:34:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (04) NL-VL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.113409.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 04
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From: Roland Desnerck <roland.desnerck at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (07) [NDS-NL]

Beste allen,



In verband met tuut en tiet...



In Oostende kennen wij:

én e tuute: en nog wat meer; vuuf frang én e tuute: een weinig meer dan vijf
frank;

e tuutsje: een tuit;

etuute van e vintsje: een klein mannetje;

e tuutsje: een kanten mutsje (van de vroegere klederdracht), ook: kaketuute;

zij die de kanten mutsjes maakte: e tuutemakege;

e tiete: een stuk; e tiete van e stuute: een stukje van een boterham;

e tietelienge: een brokje, een stukje;

e tietsje, e tsjietsje: een weinig, een klein beetje;

e tietn: een kleine jongen;

in de tuit zitn: overmatig drinken, zuipen;

van een brood met vele uitsteeksels zegt men: 't zien oal tuutn én tétn.

tietaluln: aarzelen;

e tutte, e tutsje: een kleine vrouw;

e tétte, e tétsje: een tiet;

e totsje: een kusje;

e totte: een kleine schelvis (e laber is een grote schelvis);

het schip is veraan met man en muis: 't sjhip is vergoan mé tuut én vlérke.



Toetnoasteki én de groetn van 't zaitsje (De Noordzee)



Roland Desnerck

Rogierlaan 25 (bus 13)

8400 Oostende

West-Vlaanderen

België



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 21:53:25 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:53:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.23 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.145325.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 05
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Dear Lowlanders,

Talking some for about flora ...


One of my two favorite late spring flowers is the lily of the valley
(*Convallaria
majalis*). (The other one is the peony (*Paeonia suffruticosa*)).



   - English: lily of the valley (~ lily-of-the-valley), May lily, male
   lily, May bells, lily constancy, ladder-to-heaven
   - Old Scots: *lillikyn*, *lillekyn*, *lyllikyn(n)*, *lullikin* (< Middle
   Dutch *leliekijn* “lily” [dim. ]?)
   - German: *Maiglöckchen* (“May bell(s)” [dim.])
   - Ripuarian: *Maijlöcksche* (“May bell(s)” [dim.])
   - Swiss Alemannic: *Maieriesl* (“May rose” [dim.])
   - Luxemburgish: *Meeréischen* (“May rose(s)” [dim.])
   - Sater Frisian: *Pingsterbloume* (“Whitsun flower”), *Kuutitte* (“cow’s
   teat”?))
   - West Frisian: maaieklokje (“May bell(s)” [dim.])
   - Dutch: *lelietje-van-dalen* (“lily-of-the-valley” [dim.]),
*meiklokje*(“May bell” [dim.])
   - Afrikaans: *lelie-der-dale* (“lily-of-the-valley”)
   - Limburgish: *meizäödsje* (“May seed” [dim.]?)
   - Low Saxon: *Maiklocken* (“May bells”), *Leerken*, *Lierken*, *Lierk*, *
   Lill*, < *Lilg* (“lily”), < *Lilgenkonfal(g)*, *Lilgenkunfal(g)* (“lily *
   convallaria*”), *Maibloom* (“May flower”), *Maibummeln* (“May dangles”),
   *Maienlill* (“May lily”), *Marienklocken* (“Mary’s bells”),
*Ogenkruud*(“eye herb”),
   *Schillerlilg* (“Schiller’s lily”?)
   - Danish: *Liljekonval* (cf. L. Sax., Nor., Swe.)
   - Norwegian: *Liljekonvall* (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Swe.)
   - Swedish: *Liljekonvalj* (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Nor.)
   - Estonian: *maikelluke* (< L. Sax. *Maiklocke(n)*)



Any additions or commends?

Regards,
Reinhard/ Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 00:26:49 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 17:26:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.172649.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 06
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Dear Lowlanders,

So I should have started this under “Etymology” ...


I am sure most of you have noticed that “rose” and “lily” come up in many
names of flowers that are neither roses nor lilies.



English: *lily* of the valley (~ *lily*-of-the-valley), May *lily*, male *
lil*y, May bells, *lily* constancy, ladder-to-heaven

Old Scots: *lillikyn*, *lillekyn*, *lyllikyn(n)*, *lullikin* (< Middle Dutch
*leliekijn* “lily” [dim. ]?)

German: *Maiglöckchen* (“May bell(s)” [dim.])

Ripuarian: *Maijlöcksche* (“May bell(s)” [dim.])

Swiss Alemannic: *Maieriesl* (“May *rose*” [dim.])

Luxemburgish: *Meeréischen* (“May *rose(s)*” [dim.])

Sater Frisian: *Pingsterbloume* (“Whitsun flower”), *Kuutitte* (“cow’s
teat”?))

West Frisian: *maaieklokje* (“May bell(s)” [dim.])

Dutch: *lelietje**-van-dalen* (“lily-of-the-valley” [dim.]),
*meiklokje*(“May bell” [dim.])

Afrikaans: *lelie**-der-dale* (“lily-of-the-valley”)

Limburgish: *meizäödsje* (“May seed” [dim.]?)

Low Saxon: *Maiklocken* (“May bells”), *Leer**ken*, *Lier**ken*, *Lier**k*,
*Lill*, < *Lilg* (“lily”), < *Lilgen**konfal(g)*, *Lilgen**kunfal(g)* (“*
lily* *convallaria*”), *Maibloom* (“May flower”), *Maibummeln* (“May
dangles”), *Maienlill *(“May lily”), *Marienklocken* (“Mary’s bells”), *
Ogenkruud* (“eye herb”), *Schillerlilg *(“Schiller’s *lily*”)

Danish: *Lilje**konval* (cf. L. Sax., Nor., Swe.)

Norwegian: *Lilje**konvall* (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Swe.)

Swedish: *Lilje**konvalj* (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Nor.)

Estonian: *maikelluke* (< L. Sax.)



I am sure you can think of several other flower names in your respective
languages that contain the equivalents of “rose” and “lily.”

I would like to propose the hypothesis that “rose” and “lily” (and their
equivalents) used to be used as generic labels denoting something like
“beautiful flower.”

Interestingly, Biblical Hebrew *shoshanah* (*šōšannāh* שׁוֹשָׁנָּה, also a
name from which Susanna, Susan etc. were derived) has been translated as
“rose” and “lily;” it is not clear which one it is. Again, it may have been
a general word for “beautiful flower.” (More recent varieties of Hebrew tend
distinguish “rose” [*šōšannāh* שׁוֹשָׁנָּה, or *wæræd* וֶרֶד] and “lily” [*
ħăbaṣṣælæt* חֲבַצֶּלֶת].)

In Persian and in the language that are strongly influenced by Persian, the
term *gul* (or *gol* گل) tends to be ambiguous in that it can mean “rose” or
“(beautiful) flower”. The Persian-influenced Turkic languages imported it
with this ambiguity as *gül* and some of them then derived from it the
specific name for “rose” as “red-*gül*” (e.g. Azeri *qızılgül*, Uyghur *qizil
gül* قىزىل گۈل). So, in such languages a "typical" rose is red, and the
equivalents of “yellow rose,” for instance, become “yellow red-*gül*.”

The point I am trying to make here is that there is a process whereby a once
specific name comes to be used as a generic label that then requires
specification by way of compounds.

I would like to also ask about the by now archaic use of “May” (which in
this case should be spelled “may”) and its cognates as a noun denoting a
bush, tree or sprig bearing young leaves and possibly blossoms.

In Older Scots, *mey* denotes ‘hawthorn’ in general. (The month is *Mey*.)


The first verse of a German folksong goes like this, playing with the
ambiguity of “May”:



Der Mai, der Mai, der lustige Mai,

der kommt herangerauschet.

*Ich ging in den Busch und brach mir einen Mai,*

der Mai, und der war grüne.

La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la,

der Mai, und der war grüne.



My (somewhat free) translation:



May, oh May, oh jolly, jolly May
Sweeps in rustling, whooshing.
*I went into the grove and picked myself a May,
*A May, and it was green, oh!
La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la,

A May, and it was green, oh!



And as to Low Saxon *Mai* (May), there is the derivation
*Maiboom*([ˈmaˑɪˌbɔˑʊm], literally “May tree”). It can denote any of
the following:

   - a birch tree in general (besides the choices *Bark* and *Barkenboom*)
   - a birch tree bearing young leaves and blossoms
   - a birch tree decorated for a spring festival
   - a maypole

Does any of you have comments and/or more information on these topics?

Regards,
Reinhard/ Ron
Seattle, USA



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Floralia"



Beste Ron,
Lily of the valley heet in et Stellingwarfs Woordeboek (SW) van Bloemhoff:
lelietje-der-dalen (ook wel: lelietje-van-dalen).
Een salomonszegel (polygonatum) wordt ook wel lelietje-der-dalen genoemd.
In het Westerlauwers Fries (Fries Woordenboek van W. Visser, Fryske Akademy)
is een lily of the valley een maaieklokje of een wâldfamke.



Een meibloempien is in et SW een madeliefje (Bellis perennis).
In het Westerlauwers Fries (Fries Woordenboek van W. Visser, Fryske Akademy)
is een madeliefje een koweblom/ke, finneblom/ke, fintsjeblom/ke,
lamkeblom/ke, teeblom/ke of tún(tsje)blom/ke.



Een peony (Paeonia suffruticosa) is in het Ned. een boompioen. In het
Stellingwerfs een boompioentien of pioenroze.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Floralia"



Beste Ron, Marcel, Henno, Hanne, Roland,
Ron: Dank voor je Zittelröösch(en), Zittlöösch(en), Zettlöösch.
Dit brengt mij op het idee van het Duitse _zettel_. Dit is een klein los
blaadje (papier zoals bijv. een Einkaufszettel vom tankstelle).
If so, dan is zettel misschien tittel geworden (?) en zou in het oude LS met
_tietel_(roze) wel eens een _losbladige_bloem/roos kunnen worden bedoeld.
Hmmm...



Marcel: Ook dank. Zoals Ron al zei: leuke tip, die tuit en toeter voor
tietel. Andere woorden met tetel, tietel of teutel o.i.d. vind ik niet in
het Stell. Hoewel deze narcis veel/overal wel voorkomt zie ik niet een
speciale band met ons Limburg.
Als we de -el vervangen door -er dan zou een _tieter_ een klein mannetje
zijn. Een beetje dubieus allemaal.
De (d)affodil schijnt een verbastering te zijn. Wikipedia: The name Daffodil
is derived from an earlier "Affodell", a variant of Asphodel. The reason for
the introduction of the initial "d" is not known, although a probable source
is an etymological merging from the Dutch article "de," as in "De affodil."
>From at least the 16th century "Daffadown Dilly", "daffadown dilly", and
"daffydowndilly" have appeared as playful synonyms of the name.


Ron: Een tute ken ik inderdaad wel in het Gronings en Drents. In het Stell.
kennen we de tute of et tutien ook als tuit van koffiekan/ne of
theepot/trekpot. Een _tuter_ (!) is een tuutlaampe, een soort *beker* mit
een haandvat en een lange tute d'r an. Een tutebek/kien is een mond/je met
getuite lippen. Een tute is ook de wateruitloop van een (hand)pomp op het
_stap_: ie moe'n de emmer onder de tute zetten. Verder kennen we nog het
tuten als 1. kussen, zoenen 2. als twee personen hun sigaretten tegen alkaar
houden zodat de één met de ander wordt aangestoken 3. een bijenkoningin kan
een bepaald geluid produceren wanneer die uit de moerdop komt. Een
tuteraeger is een pijpenrager en een tutering is de bekende vogel: tureluur.
Een tutien is een klein kusje/zoentje en ook wel het ventiel van een
fietsband.



In Stell. noemen wij een papieren zak gewoonlijk een poede/gien of een
kladde/gien.



Henno: Ek tige tank foar dyn info. Ik sil skielk de FA wolris freegje hoe't
it krekt sit.



Hanne: Ouck danke fur diin biidreeg. Sol man vun dat betäubenden Duftes der
Pflanze ouck LSD oder so etwas moaken en dan roucken kunnen, wat meenst du?
Ouck danke fur de trompetbloem. Die het idd net zo'n trompet als de narcis.



Roland: Ook dank voor al je mooie woorden rond tiet en tuut. Helaas zie ik
ook hier niet direct een verband met onze tietelroas/-ze.



Allemaole nog es daank en...
Een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 00:45:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 17:45:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.03.23 (07) [NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.174538.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 07
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Fonologie"



Beste Hannelore, Ron, At,
Hanne: Daank veur je weblink naor Klassisches Chinesisch.

Hanne, Ron, e.a.: Mien vraoge over fonologie en morfologie in et Chinees was
niet zo hiel slim serieus bedoeld omreden ik vanzels ok wel begriep dat zoks
niet in twie riegels uut te stokken is. En inderdaod het et niet al te vule
te maeken mit et LS. Sorry..!



At: Dank voor jouw bijdrage in voor mij (meer) begrijpelijke taal over de
vergelijking van generaties computertalen en fonologie. Ik moet hier iets
langer over nadenken (een peer ure mit in de hangmatte) maar kom er nog op
terug.



Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Phonology



Keen Probleem, beste Piet. Dien Frag’ was nich so belangloos as se mi
toeerst leet. Mag sien, dat ’t Chineessche wahrhaftig ’n Fall vun “from
simple morphology to more complex morphology” is. Nu segg *ik*: “Sorry.”



Kein probleim, beste Piet. Dien vraog’ was nich zou belaanglous as zei mie
toueirst leit (*leek*). Mag zien dat ’t Chineissche waorhaftig ’n vaal von
“from simple morphology to more complex morphology” is. Noe zeg *ik*“Sorry.”



In een notedop: fonologische vereenvoudiging vereiste het scheppen van
samengestelde woorden.



Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 01:14:42 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:14:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (08) [EN-NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.181442.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 08
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Floralia"



Beste Ron, Marcel, Henno, Hanne, Roland,
Ron: Dank voor je Zittelröösch(en), Zittlöösch(en), Zettlöösch.
Dit brengt mij op het idee van het Duitse _zettel_. Dit is een klein los
blaadje (papier zoals bijv. een Einkaufszettel vom tankstelle).
If so, dan is zettel misschien tittel geworden (?) en zou in het oude LS met
_tietel_(roze) wel eens een _losbladige_bloem/roos kunnen worden bedoeld.
Hmmm...



Marcel: Ook dank. Zoals Ron al zei: leuke tip, die tuit en toeter voor
tietel. Andere woorden met tetel, tietel of teutel o.i.d. vind ik niet in
het Stell. Hoewel deze narcis veel/overal wel voorkomt zie ik niet een
speciale band met ons Limburg.
Als we de -el vervangen door -er dan zou een _tieter_ een klein mannetje
zijn. Een beetje dubieus allemaal.
De (d)affodil schijnt een verbastering te zijn. Wikipedia: The name Daffodil
is derived from an earlier "Affodell", a variant of Asphodel. The reason for
the introduction of the initial "d" is not known, although a probable source
is an etymological merging from the Dutch article "de," as in "De affodil."
>From at least the 16th century "Daffadown Dilly", "daffadown dilly", and
"daffydowndilly" have appeared as playful synonyms of the name.


Ron: Een tute ken ik inderdaad wel in het Gronings en Drents. In het Stell.
kennen we de tute of et tutien ook als tuit van koffiekan/ne of
theepot/trekpot. Een _tuter_ (!) is een tuutlaampe, een soort *beker* mit
een haandvat en een lange tute d'r an. Een tutebek/kien is een mond/je met
getuite lippen. Een tute is ook de wateruitloop van een (hand)pomp op het
_stap_: ie moe'n de emmer onder de tute zetten. Verder kennen we nog het
tuten als 1. kussen, zoenen 2. als twee personen hun sigaretten tegen alkaar
houden zodat de één met de ander wordt aangestoken 3. een bijenkoningin kan
een bepaald geluid produceren wanneer die uit de moerdop komt. Een
tuteraeger is een pijpenrager en een tutering is de bekende vogel: tureluur.
Een tutien is een klein kusje/zoentje en ook wel het ventiel van een
fietsband.



In Stell. noemen wij een papieren zak gewoonlijk een poede/gien of een
kladde/gien.



Henno: Ek tige tank foar dyn info. Ik sil skielk de FA wolris freegje hoe't
it krekt sit.



Hanne: Ouck danke fur diin biidreeg. Sol man vun dat betäubenden Duftes der
Pflanze ouck LSD oder so etwas moaken en dan roucken kunnen, wat meenst du?
Ouck danke fur de trompetbloem. Die het idd net zo'n trompet als de narcis.



Roland: Ook dank voor al je mooie woorden rond tiet en tuut. Helaas zie ik
ook hier niet direct een verband met onze tietelroas/-ze.

Allemaole nog es daank en...
Een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Dear Piet,



I do not think that German *Zettel* has anything to do with *
Zittelröösch(en)*, *Zittlöösch(en)*, *Zettlöösch*, *Zitsch*, etc.
('daffodil'). I believe that these are older High or Central German cognates
of your *ti(e)tloos*, etc. that were imported into Low Saxon of Germany.

(When I say “Central German” I am referring to a “buffer zone” of dialects
between Low Saxon and (“High”) German.)

German *Zettel* (’chit/slip of paper’, ‘note’, cognate of Yiddish *tsetl*צעטל)
is derived from Italian *cedola*, which was derived from Medieval Latin *
cedula*, which goes back to Classical Latin *schedula*, a diminutive form of
*scheda* ’chit/slip of paper’. (Please note the derived English word
“schedule” in this connection.)



Middle (“High”) German had the derived verb *zedelen* ‘to document an
agreement in writing’. This verb did not make it into Modern German; it
would be *”zetteln” if it had survived.



Isn’t etymology fun? Thanks for your valuable input!



Kind regards!
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 18:59:11 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:59:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.24.MAR.2011.115911.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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============================== =======================



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]



Dear Reinhard,



here is another -- seemingly very old -- german Volkslied for you to
translate -- it contains "Mai" as a month *and* as a sprig resp. "Maibaum",
"Maizweig":



Der Winter ist vergangen, ich seh des Maien Schein,
ich seh die Blümlein prangen, des sich mein Herz erfreut.
So fern in jenem Tale, da ist gar lustig sein,
da singt Frau Nachtigalle und manch Waldvögelein.



Ich geh den Maien hauen wohl durch das grüne Gras
und schenk ihn meinem Buhlen, so mir die Liebste was.
Und ruf ich, wird sie kommen, an ihrem Fenster stahn,
empfangen Baum und Blumen, die sind gar wohlgetan.



Ade, mein Allerliebste, ade, schöns Blümlein fein,
ade, schön Rosenblume, es muß geschieden sein!
Bis daß ich wiederkomme, bleibst du die Liebste mein,
das Herz in meinem Leibe gehört ja allzeit dein!



And it has a rose as well, especially for you! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



I would like to also ask about the by now archaic use of “May” (which in
this case should be spelled “may”) and its cognates as a noun denoting a
bush, tree or sprig bearing young leaves and possibly blossoms.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



Thanks a lot, dear Marlou, for the song and for the rose!



Now hold on to your hat! The song is based on a Dutch song from the 15th
century or earlier!



Die winter is vergangen,
ik zie des meien schijn;
ik zie die bloemkens hangen,
des is mijn hart verblijd.
Zo ver aan genen dale,
daar is 't genoeglijk zijn;
daar zinget die nachtegale,
alzo menig woudvogelkijn.

Ik wil den mei gaan houwen
al in dat groene gras,
en schenken mijn boel die trouwe,
die mij de liefste was;
en bidden dat zij wil komen
al voor haar vensterken staan
end' ontvangen de mei met bloemen:
hij is zo wel gedaan.

Ende doe die zuiverlijke,
zijn reden hadde gehoord,
doe stond zij treurendlijke;
met des sprak zij een woord:
Ik heb den mei ontvangen
met groter waardigheid.
Hij kust ze aan de wangen
was dat niet eerbaarheid?

Hij nam ze zonder treuren
al in zijn armkens blank.
Die wachter op der muren
die hief op een lied ende sanc:
En is daar iemand inne,
die mag wel huiswaarts gaan:
ik zie den dag opdringen
al door die wolken klaar.

Och wachter op der muren,
hoe kwelstu mij zo hard!
Ik lig in zwaren treuren;
mijn herte dat lijdet smart.
Dat doet die alreliefste,
dat ik van haar scheiden moet
dat klaag ik God den Here,
dat ik ze laten moet.

Adieu, mijn alreliefste,
adieu, schoon bloemken fijn,
adieu, schoon rozebloeme,
daar moet gescheiden zijn.
Hent dat ik wederkome
die liefste zoudt gij zijn:
dat herte in mijnen lijve
dat hoort ja altijd dijn.



Listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFriSzut90c



Earlier version:



Der wynter ys verganghen,
Ons compt des meyens tyet,
Ic sie die loeffer hanghen
Die bloemkens spruten daer wyet.
Soe veer yn ghenen dalen
Daer ys soe genuchelick syen
Daer synck frou nachtegale
En soe mennych fogelkyn.



Ick wyl die mey gaen halen
Al yn dat groene walt
Und sceynken myn buul myn trowen
Die myn hart bevanghen haet
En vraghen of hie wold commen
All voor myn kleyn feensterlyng staeu
En ontfanghen die mey myt bloemmen
Sye ys (so) scoen gedaen.



En doe die suverlixste
Die klacht oeck haet gehoert,
Doe stont sye trurenlycke;
Myt deen sprack sye een woert:
‘Wye wyllen die mey ontfanghen
‘Myt groter eerwirdicheyt.’
Hie druckten sye aen oer wanghen;
Was dat nyet eerberheyt?



Hi naem sye sonder truren
Al yn syen armkens blanck,
Die wechter upter muren,
Die hief up ende lude sanck:
En ys daer ymant ynnen,
Die mach wael toe huyswart gaen,
Ick sie die dach up klymmen
Al doer die wolken klaer.



Och wechter upter muren!
Waer om en swychtu nyet?
Ick lych yn swaren truren
Yn soe mennych swaer verdriet,
Ghy queylt my alsoe sure,
Ghy kreynck my myennen muut,
Des klach ick got den heren,
Dat ick van oer sceyden muut.



Adde myn rose bloemme,
Adde myn suute lieff!
Wees dat ick weder comme
Und blyeff altyet bye die,
Soe muut u got bewaren,
Unde sparen u lanck gesont,
Wees dat ick weder commen
Unde cussen voer uwen roder mont.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 19:00:52 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 12:00:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.24.MAR.2011.120052.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 24 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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============================== =======================



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]



Dear Reinhard,



here is another -- seemingly very old -- german Volkslied for you to
translate -- it contains "Mai" as a month *and* as a sprig resp. "Maibaum",
"Maizweig":



Der Winter ist vergangen, ich seh des Maien Schein,
ich seh die Blümlein prangen, des sich mein Herz erfreut.
So fern in jenem Tale, da ist gar lustig sein,
da singt Frau Nachtigalle und manch Waldvögelein.



Ich geh den Maien hauen wohl durch das grüne Gras
und schenk ihn meinem Buhlen, so mir die Liebste was.
Und ruf ich, wird sie kommen, an ihrem Fenster stahn,
empfangen Baum und Blumen, die sind gar wohlgetan.



Ade, mein Allerliebste, ade, schöns Blümlein fein,
ade, schön Rosenblume, es muß geschieden sein!
Bis daß ich wiederkomme, bleibst du die Liebste mein,
das Herz in meinem Leibe gehört ja allzeit dein!



And it has a rose as well, especially for you! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



I would like to also ask about the by now archaic use of “May” (which in
this case should be spelled “may”) and its cognates as a noun denoting a
bush, tree or sprig bearing young leaves and possibly blossoms.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



Thanks a lot, dear Marlou, for the song and for the rose!



Now hold on to your hat! The song is based on a Dutch song from the 15th
century or earlier!



Die winter is vergangen,
ik zie des meien schijn;
ik zie die bloemkens hangen,
des is mijn hart verblijd.
Zo ver aan genen dale,
daar is 't genoeglijk zijn;
daar zinget die nachtegale,
alzo menig woudvogelkijn.

Ik wil den mei gaan houwen
al in dat groene gras,
en schenken mijn boel die trouwe,
die mij de liefste was;
en bidden dat zij wil komen
al voor haar vensterken staan
end' ontvangen de mei met bloemen:
hij is zo wel gedaan.

Ende doe die zuiverlijke,
zijn reden hadde gehoord,
doe stond zij treurendlijke;
met des sprak zij een woord:
Ik heb den mei ontvangen
met groter waardigheid.
Hij kust ze aan de wangen
was dat niet eerbaarheid?

Hij nam ze zonder treuren
al in zijn armkens blank.
Die wachter op der muren
die hief op een lied ende sanc:
En is daar iemand inne,
die mag wel huiswaarts gaan:
ik zie den dag opdringen
al door die wolken klaar.

Och wachter op der muren,
hoe kwelstu mij zo hard!
Ik lig in zwaren treuren;
mijn herte dat lijdet smart.
Dat doet die alreliefste,
dat ik van haar scheiden moet
dat klaag ik God den Here,
dat ik ze laten moet.

Adieu, mijn alreliefste,
adieu, schoon bloemken fijn,
adieu, schoon rozebloeme,
daar moet gescheiden zijn.
Hent dat ik wederkome
die liefste zoudt gij zijn:
dat herte in mijnen lijve
dat hoort ja altijd dijn.



Listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFriSzut90c



Earlier version:



Der wynter ys verganghen,
Ons compt des meyens tyet,
Ic sie die loeffer hanghen
Die bloemkens spruten daer wyet.
Soe veer yn ghenen dalen
Daer ys soe genuchelick syen
Daer synck frou nachtegale
En soe mennych fogelkyn.



Ick wyl die mey gaen halen
Al yn dat groene walt
Und sceynken myn buul myn trowen
Die myn hart bevanghen haet
En vraghen of hie wold commen
All voor myn kleyn feensterlyng staeu
En ontfanghen die mey myt bloemmen
Sye ys (so) scoen gedaen.



En doe die suverlixste
Die klacht oeck haet gehoert,
Doe stont sye trurenlycke;
Myt deen sprack sye een woert:
‘Wye wyllen die mey ontfanghen
‘Myt groter eerwirdicheyt.’
Hie druckten sye aen oer wanghen;
Was dat nyet eerberheyt?



Hi naem sye sonder truren
Al yn syen armkens blanck,
Die wechter upter muren,
Die hief up ende lude sanck:
En ys daer ymant ynnen,
Die mach wael toe huyswart gaen,
Ick sie die dach up klymmen
Al doer die wolken klaer.



Och wechter upter muren!
Waer om en swychtu nyet?
Ick lych yn swaren truren
Yn soe mennych swaer verdriet,
Ghy queylt my alsoe sure,
Ghy kreynck my myennen muut,
Des klach ick got den heren,
Dat ick van oer sceyden muut.



Adde myn rose bloemme,
Adde myn suute lieff!
Wees dat ick weder comme
Und blyeff altyet bye die,
Soe muut u got bewaren,
Unde sparen u lanck gesont,
Wees dat ick weder commen
Unde cussen voer uwen roder mont.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 25 04:28:56 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:28:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.24 (02) [EN-NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.24.MAR.2011.212856.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 24 March - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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============================== =======================



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]



Wow, this is really a very old song! Thank you for the early versions, dear
Reinhard. Des freut sich mein Herz :-) I would love to know if the melodies
we know are the same as the older versions -- to know with what tunes these
words were expressed in so far away times. Music taste -- and probably
musical abilities --seem to have changed a lot since the 15th century; I
often think so when singing (or, often in vain, trying to sing) very old
church hymns, set in measures like 22:23, with melodies that seem quite
unintelligible to me. How could anyone ever remember these melodies or find
them expressive or even beautiful? These songs and hymns were sung by
everyday people after all. Even the few hymns Luther composed... well, he
was not a composer in the first line :-) On the other side, rhythm feeling
seems to have been much more sophisticated than in today's Germany. -- Music
is quite another sort of language, but maybe here we see another example of
simplification?



Hartlich



Marlou



Now hold on to your hat! The song is based on a Dutch song from the 15th
century or earlier!



----------



From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]



Marlou, Reinhard,



Ik heb ok nog wat op youtube evunden



Arend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX5-ibnoO00&feature=related



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



I posted:



Der wynter ys verganghen,
Ons compt des meyens tyet,
Ic sie die loeffer hanghen
Die bloemkens spruten daer wyet.
Soe veer yn ghenen dalen
Daer ys soe genuchelick syen
Daer synck frou nachtegale
En soe mennych fogelkyn.



Ick wyl die mey gaen halen
Al yn dat groene walt
Und sceynken myn buul myn trowen
Die myn hart bevanghen haet
En vraghen of hie wold commen
All voor myn kleyn feensterlyng staeu
En ontfanghen die mey myt bloemmen
Sye ys (so) scoen gedaen.



En doe die suverlixste
Die klacht oeck haet gehoert,
Doe stont sye trurenlycke;
Myt deen sprack sye een woert:
‘Wye wyllen die mey ontfanghen
‘Myt groter eerwirdicheyt.’
Hie druckten sye aen oer wanghen;
Was dat nyet eerberheyt?



Hi naem sye sonder truren
Al yn syen armkens blanck,
Die wechter upter muren,
Die hief up ende lude sanck:
En ys daer ymant ynnen,
Die mach wael toe huyswart gaen,
Ick sie die dach up klymmen
Al doer die wolken klaer.



Och wechter upter muren!
Waer om en swychtu nyet?
Ick lych yn swaren truren
Yn soe mennych swaer verdriet,
Ghy queylt my alsoe sure,
Ghy kreynck my myennen muut,
Des klach ick got den heren,
Dat ick van oer sceyden muut.



Adde myn rose bloemme,
Adde myn suute lieff!
Wees dat ick weder comme
Und blyeff altyet bye die,
Soe muut u got bewaren,
Unde sparen u lanck gesont,
Wees dat ick weder commen
Unde cussen voer uwen roder mont.



The song must have been very popular at some time. The one above is said to
be from Hanau (which is now on the German side of the border ... unless I am
sorely mistaken). Here’s another old version in a different old language
variety, this one from Zutphen, which is in the Low Saxon area of the
Netherlands:



De winter is verganghen,
Ic sie des meien schyn,
Ic sie die bloemkens hanghen,
Des is myn hert verblyt.

So ver aen ghenen dale
Daer ist ghenoechlic syn,
Daer singhet die nachtegale,
Also menich woutvoghelkyn



Ic wil den mei gaen houwen
Al in dat groene gras
Ende schenken myn boel die trouwe,
Die mi die lieveste was,
Ende bidden, die si wil comen
Al voor haer vensterken staen
Ende ontfanghen den mei met bloemmen,
Hi is so wel ghedaen.



Ende doe die suiverlike
Syn reden hadde ghehoort,
Doe stont si trurentlike;
Met des sprac si een woort:
‘Ic heb den mei ontfanghen
‘Met groter eerwaerdicheyt.’
Hi cust si aen haer wanghen;
Was dat niet eerbaerheyt?



Hi nam si sonder truren
Al in syn armkens blanc.
Die wachter op der muren
Die hief op een liet ende sanc:
‘En is daer ieman inne,
‘Die mach wel thuiswaert gaen,
‘Ic sie den dach opdringhen
Al door die wolken claer.’



Och wachter op der muren!
Hoe quelstu mi so hart?
Ic ligghe in swaren truren,
Myn herte dat lidet smert.
Dat doet die alre liefste,
Dat ic van haer scheiden moet,
Dat claghe ic god den here,
Dat ic si laten moet.



Adieu myn alreliefste,
Adien schoon bloemken fijn,
Adieu schoon rosebloeme,
Daer moet ghescheyden zyn;
Hent dat ic wedercome,
Die liefste sult ghi syn,
Dat herte in minen live
Dat hoort jo altyt dyn.



This version seems to be in Middle Dutch (Low Frankish) to me rather than in
Middle Saxon (e.g. *wout* instead of *wold*).



Also, this version has one verse less compared with the Hanau version.



Discovered in Ghent Library:


Het winterken is ons verganghen

En het somerken komter ons aen,

Men sieter die looverkens hanghen

En die bloemkens staen ontaen,

Soo verre aen eender dale,

Daer ist ghenoeghlyck om syn,

Daer singht den fieren Nachtegale

En soo menigh wilt voghelkyn.

....



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, U



Source: http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/kalf003lied01_01/kalf003lied01_01_0004.php



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Songs"



A slightly different addition...

De Winter is Vergangen / La Bien Aimée / The Winter is Past, first printed
in Antwerp in the 16th century, refer to the centuries-old tradition of
meiplanting: on the eve of the first day of May an amorous young man would
plant a blooming branch by the window of the young lady he fancied. In this
song the suitor gets lucky! But all too soon, the accursed guard announces
from his tower that dawn is breaking, and the lovers regretfully part.



Mei- en dageraadslied over twee geliefden die door de wachter worden
gewaarschuwd dat ze moeten scheiden omdat de dag aanbreekt.
Oudste optekening op een los blad uit de 15e eeuw met middelnederlandse
tekst, dat in Hanau (Duitsland) gevonden werd.
In Antwerps Liedboek 74, "Het viel eens hemels douwe", heeft interferentie
opgetreden tussen onderhavig lied en het lied "Het viel een coelen douwe".

1. Die winter is ons verghanghen
en ick sie des Meys virtuyt
Ick sie die loueren hanghen
En die bloemkens die spruyten daer uit
Also veer aen ghene groenen dale
Daer is het so ghenoechlijke zijn
Daer singt die fiere Nachtegale
Met so menich cleyn wilt voghelkijn.

2. Wy willen die Mey gaen houwen
Hier buyten int groene wout
En schencke mijn soete lief mijn trouwe
Die mijn herteken bevangen hout
En vragen of zy wilden comen
Voor haer cleyn veynster staen
Ontfangen de Mey met haren boemen
Want zy is so schoon ghedaen.

3. Legdy nu en slaept schoon lief
En waerom en waeckt ghy niet
Ick stae hier voor u duerken
En ick lijder also swaren verdriet
En ick stae hier voor u duerken
En ick lijder also groten pijn
Staet op mijn alder liefste
En spreeckt een woort teghens mijn.

4. Doe die suyuerlijcke
Dat claghen aen hadde ghehoort
Sy stont op haestelijcke
En met een sprack zy een woort
En hy namse al in zijn armen
Met groter eerwaerdicheyt
Hy custense voor haer modelijn was root
En zy namt oock al in danckbaerheyt.

5. O doot zeyde vermaledyde doot
Waer toe zijt ghy ghemaeckt
Ghy staet hier voor mijn ooghen
Die also bitterlijcke smaeckt
Ghy staet hier voor mijn ooghen
Recht teghen neuens mijn
Ick sie den lichten dach op dringhen
En mijn soete Liefs claer aenschijn.

6. En hy namse al in zijn armen
Met groter eerwaerdicheyt
Hy custense voor haer mondelijn was root
En zy namt oock al in danckbaerheyt
Die wachter op de muere
Hoe luyde was dat hy sang
En isser yemant inne
Die mach thuyswaert ghaen
Ick sie den lichten dach op dringhen
Alzo veer int oosten op gaen.



Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 25 04:39:48 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:39:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.24 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.24.MAR.2011.213948.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 24 March - Volume 03
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From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Etymology



> I would like to propose the hypothesis that “rose” and “lily” (and their
equivalents) used to be used as generic labels denoting something like
“beautiful flower.”

And then there's the Chilean Rose to remind us that beauty is in the eye of
the beholder.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Thanks, Sandy ... I think.



And then there’s what in some relevant languages is also called the
equivalent of “rose”: *Herpes zoster*, a.k.a. shingles. I’m one of the
“freaks” that has had it three times so far ... (and in my case, unusually,
the pain sets in before “the rose blooms” ...).



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 25 18:41:42 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:41:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.25 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.MAR.2011.114142.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 25 March - Volume 013
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.24 (03) [EN]



From: Sandy Fleming



"And then there's the Chilean Rose to remind us that beauty is in the eye of
the beholder."



Had to Google this. Well, it's certainly beautiful in the eye of this
beholder!



Paul



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]

Bi dit Thema geiht de Post af...

Leiw' Lowlanners,

vörweg wat oewer den'n Maimaand.

*Mai:* Der Monatsname (*mhd. *meie, *ahd.* meio) beruht mit *roman.
*Entsprechungen
wie *it.  *maggio und *frz.
*mai auf *lat. *(mensis) Maius "*(Monat) Mai". *Der Monat heißt vermutlich
nach einem alitalischen Gott Maius, der als Beschützer des Wahstums verehrt
wurde. Dazu stellen sich *Maie  *veraltend  für "Maibaum; Birkengrün"
und *maien
*dichterisch für "Mai werden". - Zus.: *Maiglöckchen *(18./19.Jh.; weil es
im Mai blüht); *Maaikäfer *(17. Jh.; weil er im Mai schwärmt).
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Liljenkunfaljen* Pl. Maiglökchen, benannt nach *Lilium convallium*  des
Hohenliedes und der lat. Fachsprache des Mittelalters; eine junge
Singularform -*falj  *ist  überaus selten; convallaria majalis (Heinrich
Marzell Wörterbuch Pflanzennnamen 1937).
Dat Wuurt Liljenkunfaljen hett väle Klüren (Farben):
Lilgenkunfalgen, -konflagen; Lilien confallien, -kunfaljen, -kumfalj;
Lilljenkonvaljen;  Lillekumfaljen, -kofalen;
Liljenkofalgen; Liljenkumfalken; Lielkenkofallen; Lilkenkunfaken;
Schaniljkunfaken; Lenekunfalten; Lirjenkonfaljen; daneben gibt es eine mit *N-
*beginnende Reihe: Niljenkumfaljen; Niljenkofaljen; Nekenkofarken.
Neuend, deren erster Wortteil sich loslöst, ohne die Bedeutung Maiglöckchen
aufzugeben: Pl. Nilen, Nillen, Nilgen, Nilen, Nilj, Nilijen, Nid'l.
Syn.: *Einstengelkenbläder, Maiblaum.*
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Nu kann de Mai kamen.

Hanne

* *

*----------*

* *

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (08) [EN-NDS-NL]

Hallo Piet, Ron un all' Lowlanners,

(nu heff ick wedder Tied för LL-L)

Piet wull weiten:
Sol  man vun dat betäubenden Duftes der Pflanze ouk LSD oder so etwas moaken
en dan roucken kunnen, wat meenst du?

Ick mein: nee. Villicht sünd de Giftmischer (Chemiker) noch gor dor achter
kamen. Blot för ein "Wunner-Pill" (Wunderdroge), nee. Wenn't för ein gaude
Saak gellen süll, worüm nich...

Un för di Ron schuw ick noch wat nah oewer *Zettel:*

*Zettel *"kleines [rechteckiges] Stück Papier": Das Substantiv *mhd. *zedel[e]
ist aus *it. *cedola entlehnt, das über *mlat. *cedula auf älteres schedula,
eine Verkleinungsbildung zu *lat. *scheda "Zettel", zurückgeht. Eine
Präfixbildung zu dem von Zettel abgeleiteten, im* Nhd. *untergegangenen
einfachen Verb *mhd. *zedelen "eine schriftliche Abmachung ausfertigen" ist
das Verb *verzetteln *(im 15. Jh. in der gleichen Bedeutung wie das einfache
Verb; in der Bedeutung "in Zettelkarteien" seit Mitte des 18. Jh.s).
Lit.: DUDEN 7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache

Un de Perfesser Voßlo hett  dunntaumalen hümpelwies'  all' all sien
Utfragen/Antwuurten   in'n  Zettelkasten sammelt un later sien Warken
rutgäben.

Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 25 19:19:53 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:19:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.25 (02) (DE-EN-FY-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.MAR.2011.121953.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 25 March - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



Dear Lowlanders,



As for Hanau, Zutphen, etc., we need to bear in mind that these are the
places at which the songs where discovered in libraries. It does mean that
they are songs of those regions.



A spring song in Middle English:



Lenten ys come with love to toune,
With blosmen and with briddes roune,
    That al this blisse bryngeth;
Dayesezes in this dales,
Notes suete of nyhtegales;
    Uch foul song singeth.
The threstelcoc him threteth oo;
Away is huere wynter woo,
    When woderove springeth.
This foules singeth ferly fele,
And wlyteth on huere wynter wele,
    That al the wode ryngeth.

The rose rayleth hire rode;
The leves on the lyhte wode
    Waxen al with wille.
The mone mandeth hire bleo;
The lilie is lossom to seo,
    The fenyl and the fille.
Wowes this wilde drakes;
Miles murgeth huere makes,
    Ase strem that striketh stille.
Mody meneth, so doth mo;
Ichot Ycham on of tho,
    For love that likes ille.



Sound and translation: http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medlyric/lenten.php



And here’s a spring song in West Frisian:



*De Maitiid
*
Dan komt de maitiid, maitiid yn it lân.
Dan laket alles, alles jin sa oan. De moaie maitiid mei syn blauwe loft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft.

As de fûgels striekes sjouwe nei it dak of holle beam.
As de fjilden har ûntjouwe en de blomkes iepen gean.

Dan komt de maitiid, maitiid yn it lân. Dan laket alles, alles jin sa oan.
De moaie maitiid mei syn blauwe loft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft.

As twa jonge minske-herten troch de leafde bin ferbûn.
En it houlik wurd besletten 't grutte libben wurd begûn.

Dan komt de maitiid, maitiid yn it lân. Dan laket alles, alles jin sa oan.
De moaie maitiid mei syn blauwe loft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft.



Sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dR_jk-nNLU&feature=related



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.24 (02) (EN-NDS-NL]

Nu kann ick wedder up mien  Daglöhnerörgel (Ziehharmonika) all' de feinen
Frühjohrsleeder spälen un de Tauhürers giern mitsingen...

Ick heff mal wat utsöcht, oewer Reinhard, wi dörben ok dien "Vörjahrs-Haiku"
mit Melodie nich oewerseihn...


*Leise zieht durch mein Gemüt

*Leise zieht durch mein Gemüt
liebliches Geläute,
klinge, kleines Frühlingslied,
kling hinaus ins Weite!

Kling hinaus bis an das Haus,
wo die Veilchen sprießen:
Wenn du eine Rose schaust,
sag, ich laß sie grüßen.

*Text: Heinrich Heine (1797-1856)
Melodie: Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholldy (1809-1847)
**
Wie schön blüht uns der Maien

*Wie schön blüht uns der Maien,
der Sommer fährt dahin.
Mir ist ein schön Jungfräulein
gefallen in mein Sinn.
Bei ihr da wärs mir wohl.
Wenn ich nur an sie denke,
mein Herz ist freudevoll.

Bei ihr, da wär ich gerne,
bei ihr da wär mir wohl;
sie ist mein Morgensterne,

gfällt mir im Herzen wohl.    (gfällt,  kein Tippfehler)


Sie hat ein' roten Mund;
sollt ich darauf sie küssen,
mein Herz würd' mir gesund.

*Worte: nach Forster, Frische teutsche Liedlein, 1549
Weise: nach einer Courante, um 1619
*
*Wannerleed

*De Maidag kem mit Kling un Klang,
mit Mai un Moesch, mit Sing un Sang,
nu is ok Tied tau wannern!
Adschüs, mien Dirn, un bliew mi tru,
rin in de Wieden treck ick nu,
von einen Urt tau'n annern.

Adschüs, nu möt ick wannern!


De Fleeder bläuht, dat Holt is greuen,
wat is de Welt doch einmal schön,
un wat de Voegel singen!
De Ird dräggt hüt ehr Sünndagskleed,
de Vagel singt sien Hochtiedsleed,
dat sall woll Glück mi bringen,
wenn so de Voegel singen!

Un heff ick ok nich Geld un Gaud,
ick sing doch mit un swenk den'n Haut.
Ick bün so jung an Johren!
Noch sleiht dat Hart mi in de Bost,
un wenn't den'n letzten Sößling kost,
hew nie den'n Maud verluren,
ick bün so jung an Johren!

*Worte: Rudolf Tarnow (1867-1933)
Weise: M. Rhoden

*Ja, dat gifft hümpelwies schöne nd. Leeder:

*Kuckuck un Kiewitt reisen nah Nuurn...*
*Worte; Johann Hinrich Fehrs (1858-1916)*

*Maien*
De Mai, de Mai is kamen ...

*Worte: John Brinckman (1814-1870)
Weise: Friedrich Siems (1889 - ?)*


Un nich vergäten de Kinnerleeder:
*Der Kuckuck und der Esel*
*Text: Hoffmann v. Fallersleben 1835*
*Melodie: K.F. Zelter 1810*

*Der Kuckuck ist ein kluger Mann*
*Volkslied

**Der Mai tritt ein mit Freuden*

Der Mai tritt ein mit Freuden,
es flieht der Winter kalt,
die Blümlein auf der Heiden,
die blühen mannigfalt.
Ein Röselein zarte,
von Farbe so schön, -
das blüht in meinem Garten,
vor allen ich's krön.

Es ist so wohlgemute,
das Röselein rot,
erfrischet Sinn und Mute,
errettet aus der Not.
Es ist mein Ehrenpreise,
dazu mein Augentrost,
und hat mit allem Fleiße
vom Tode mich erlost.

Ach, Röselein, mein Wegwart,
gar freundlich ich bitt,
mein Wanderstab zu aller Fahrt,
dazu Vergißmeinnit!
Die Not muß vertilgen,
so lang du nur mein;

Kathrinchen von der Lilgen


mein Röslein muß sein.

*Volkslied 16. Jahrhundert*

Un kiek in dat

PLATTDÜÜTSCH GESANGBOOK 222


Dat hd. Leed "Die güldene Sonn"
heff ick dunnmals in de Pastermandenstunn'
(Konfirmandenstunde) lieren müßt.
Ick kann dat hüt noch singen...'t hett
ne hübsche Melodie, de oewer
in dit Bauk ein anner hett.

Nu möten wi uns alltohopen drapen un in'n Chur singen, wo schööön künn dat
sien...

Wat hett eins Robert Schumann (1810-1856) uns mit up den'n Weg' gäben:



Höre fleißig auf alle Volkslieder, sie sind eine Fundgrube der schönsten
Melodien und öffnen dir den Blick in den Charakter der verschiedenen
Nationen.

Ick polier all mien Stimm': mi mi mi mi mi ...

Hanne



----------



Fram: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: "Etymology" 20011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]

Leiw' Lowlanners,

ick heff upklappt dat Leederbauk:

DEUTSCHE VOLKSLIEDER
Eine Sammlung zum Singen und Musizieren mit Notenschlüssel
Herausgegeben von Heinrich Zelton
BECHTERMÜNZ VERLAG   ISBN 3-886047-189-9

*Der Winter ist vergangen

*Der Winter ist vergangen,
ich seh des Maien Schein,
ich seh die Blümlein prangen,
des ist mein Herz erfreut.
So fern in jenem Tale,
da ist gar lustig sein,
da singt Frau Nachtigalle
und manch Waldvögelein.

Ich geh, den Mai zu hauen,
hin durch das grüne Gras,
schenk meinem Buhl die Treue,                (meinem Buhl)
die mir die Liebste was,
und bitt, daß sie mag kommen,
all vor dem Fenster stahn,
empfang'n den Mai mit Blumen,
er ist gar wohl getan.

Er nahm sie sonder Trauren
in seine Arme blank.
Der Wächter auf den Mauren
hub an ein Lied und sang:
"Ist jemand noch darinnen,
der mag bald heimwärts gan!  (gan, steht hier so, ... gar?)
Ich seh den Tag herdringen
schon durch die Wolken klar."

Ade, mein Allerliebst,
ade, schön Blümlein fein,
ade, schön Rosenblume,
es muß geschieden sein!
Bis daß ich wiederkomme,
bleibst du die Liebste mein;
das Herz in meinem Leibe
gehört ja allzeit dein!

*Text und Melodie: aus einem Niederländischen  Lautenbuch, um 1600. Die hier
vorgelegte Fassung ist gegen Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts entstanden und fand
erst zu diesem Zeitpunkt weite Verbreitung.*

Wi kenn'n all' dat Leed: *Der Mai ist gekommen*
Text: Emanuel Geibel (1815-1884); Melodie: Justus Wilhelm Lyra (1822-1882)

*Grüß Gott, du schöner Maien
*Text und Melodie: volkstümlich, aus dem 16. Jahrhundert

*Jetzt fängt das schöne Frühjahr an
*Aus Franken. Text und Melodie: volkstümlich, aus der Mitte des 19.
Jahrhunderts

*Im Märzen der Bauer
*Aus Nordmähren. Textneufassung von W. Brandhusen; Melodie: volkstümlich,
aus dem 19. Jh.

*Komm, lieber Mai *
Text: Christian Adolf Overbeck (1755-1821); Melodie: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
(1756-1791)

*Winter, ade!
*Text: August Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben (1798-1874); Melodie:
volkstümlich, nach einem fränkischen Volkslied.

*Nun will der Lenz uns grüßen
*Text: Neuere Fassung nach Neidhart von Reuenthal, 13. Jahrhundert; Melodie:
volkstümlich, in Anlehnung an das alte Geusenlied Wilhelm von Nassauen, 17.
Jahrhundert.

So as ümmer mien hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne mit de Treckfiedel



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



Dank di, Hanne.



Ick heff mal wat utsöcht, oewer Reinhard, wi dörben ok dien "Vörjahrs-Haiku"
mit Melodie nich oewerseihn...



http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/hinz_haiku_spring.php



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 27 23:40:24 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 16:40:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.27 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.MAR.2011.164024.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 27 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: Jean-Luc Detilleux <jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.23 (05) [EN]



Hello you all,



The *convollaria majalis* is known in French as *muguet* (from musc, due to
the smell), but also as *lys/lis de mai*, though the latter is much less
common. The same idea carries on even in a romance language…



Best regards,



Jean-Luc Detilleux



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 28 17:55:58 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 10:55:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.28 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.28.MAR.2011.105558.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 28 March - Volume 01
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From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]



On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Reinhard wrote:

I am sure most of you have noticed that ?rose? and ?lily? come up in many
names of flowers that are neither roses nor lilies.


In Estonian every flower, flower generally is called "lill".


English: lily of the valley (~ lily-of-the-valley), May lily, male lily,

May bells, lily constancy,

ladder-to-heaven
Old Scots: lillikyn, lillekyn, lyllikyn(n), lullikin (< Middle Dutch

leliekijn ?lily? [dim. ]?)
German: Maiglöckchen (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
Ripuarian: Maijlöcksche (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
Swiss Alemannic: Maieriesl (?May rose? [dim.])
Luxemburgish: Meeréischen (?May rose(s)? [dim.])
Sater Frisian: Pingsterbloume (?Whitsun flower?), Kuutitte (?cow?s

teat??))
West Frisian: maaieklokje (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
Dutch: lelietje-van-dalen (?lily-of-the-valley? [dim.]), meiklokje (?May

bell? [dim.])
Afrikaans: lelie-der-dale (?lily-of-the-valley?)
Limburgish: meizäödsje (?May seed? [dim.]?)
Low Saxon: Maiklocken (?May bells?), Leerken, Lierken, Lierk, Lill, <

Lilg (?lily?), < Lilgenkonfal(g),

Lilgenkunfal(g) (?lily convallaria?), Maibloom (?May flower?),

Maibummeln (?May dangles?), Maienlill (?May l$

Marienklocken (?Mary?s bells?), Ogenkruud (?eye herb?), Schillerlilg

(?Schiller?s lily?)
Danish: Liljekonval (cf. L. Sax., Nor., Swe.)
Norwegian: Liljekonvall (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Swe.)
Swedish: Liljekonvalj (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Nor.)
Estonian: maikelluke (< L. Sax.)


Mari Sarv
Tartu
Estonia



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject:  LL-L "Floralia"



Tietelroze...
Van een wetenschappelijk onderzoeker naar de huidige stand van de
'tietelroze' (www.martypoorter.nl/paginas/stinzen.html) kreeg ik deze
verklaring over de naam 'tietelraos'. De Nederlandse naam was vroeger
'tijdloze' waarmee aangeduid werd dat deze bloem buiten de normale bloeitijd
valt, hetzij eerder, hetzij later. In het Nederlands is de 'd' door de jaren
vervallen en werd het 'tijloze'. Door verbastering is vervolgens de naam
'tietelroas/-roze' ontstaan. Daarom noemen wij hier in Fryslân/Stellingwerf
bijv. de herfstkrokus (autumn crocus) ook wel tietelroos.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult





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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 29 18:22:44 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:22:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.29 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.MAR.2011.112244.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 29 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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============================== =======================



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.28 (01) [EN-NL]



In Iran there is a small wild red tulip called a *laleh*; it is a quite a
popular girl's name too. I wonder if this has the same IE root as "lily"?



Paul

Derby

England.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology


Thanks, Paul! This is really interesting since I was just following the same
lead.

The official line is that “lily” and its cognates come from L. *lilia*, pl.
of *lilium*, and is a cognate of Greek *leírion* (λείριoν) ‘lily’.

[By the way, in Persian ‘lily’ is *šūšan* (سوسن), which spread as a loanword
through Central and Southern Asia, and the ancestor of which may well be the
origin of the Hebrew word *šōšannāh* (שׁוֹשַנָּה) ‘lily’, ‘rose’, which I
recently mentioned.]

And, indeed, one of the primitive tulips has the Persian name *lāleh* (لاله),
a word that found its way into the Persian-influenced and eventually
Turkic-influenced languages of a vast region, e.g. Urdu *gul lāleh* (گل لالہ,
“*laleh* flower”, versus Hindi *ṭyūlip* ट्यूलिप < English “tulip”), Uzbek *
lola*, Uyghur *lalä* (لاله), Turkish *lale*, Azeri *dağlaləsi* (“mountain *
lale*”), Bulgarian *lale* (лале), Macedonian *lale* (лале), Serbian
*lala*(лала, versus Croatian
*tulipan*).

I’m wondering if there has been some etymological “contamination” between
this and “lily.”.

The “tulip” group of names comes from older *tulipan* which is said to go
back, via Ottoman Turkish *tülbend*, to Persian *dulband* ‘turban’, because
the closed blossom was likened to the shape of a turban by Westerners.
However, Ottoman Turkish *tülbend* also means ‘gauze (band)’, which would be
consistent with Persian **tūrband* (*توربند, “gauze band”).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 30 18:39:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:39:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.30 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.30.MAR.2011.113941.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 30 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.29 (01) [EN]



Hi Ron,



A possible area for more research! One problem with plant and animal names
is that they readily transfer to different species when people migrate - the
American blackbird and robin are quite different birds from the European
ones they are named after. There are countless species of fish around the
world called "cod", many of them quite unrelated (other than being fish of
course).



So a name like "lily" might well go back to, and beyond, Proto
Indo-European, but may have applied to a totally different flower.



Paul



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology


Thanks, Paul.

This is what the Wikipedia says:   The botanic name *Lilium* is the
Latinform and is a
Linnaean name. The Latin name is derived from the Greek λείριον, *leírion*,
generally assumed to refer to true, white lilies as exemplified by the Madonna
lily. The word was borrowed from Coptic (dial. Fayyumic) *hleri*, from
standard *hreri*, from Demotic *hrry*, from Egyptian *hrṭt* "flower".
Meillet maintains that both the Egyptian and the Greek word are possible
loans from an extinct, substratum language of the Eastern Mediterranean.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 20111.03.29 (01) [EN]

Hallo leiw Lowlands-Frünn'.

Ok mi hett dit Thema/Saak nieglich (neugierig) makt.

So heff ick in Bäuker snükert un taugliek mit ein Gräuten nu dit, wat kümmt.

LILIENGEWÄCHSE  Liliaceae

*1. Kelchsimsenlilie,* *Tofieldia*
*2. Weißer Germer, **Veratrum album*
*3. Herbstzeitlose,  **Colchicumautumnale
**4. Bärenlauch, **Allium  ursinum
**5. Türkenbundlilie, **Lilium martagon

*SCHWERTLILIENGEWÄCHSE  Iridaceae
*
6. Frühlingskrokus, **Crocus albiflorus*

Lit.: PFLANZEN UND TIERE Urania-Verlag Leipzig . Jena . Berlin

*Lilie:* Der Pflanzenname *(mhd. *lilje, *ahd. *lilia) wurde im Mittelalter
aus *lat. *lilia, dem *Plural *von *lat. *lilium
"Lilie", entlehnt. Der Pflanzenname stammt aus einer östlichen
Mittelmeersprache.

*Tulpe: *Der Name der im 16. Jh. aus dem Vorderen Orient nach Europa
eingeführten Blume taucht zuerst in Reiseberichten des 16. Jh.s
als'Tulipa[n] auf. Durch *niederl. *Vermittlung erscheint im 17. Jh. die
Form 'Tulpe', die später allgemein üblich wurde. Der aus dem *Türk. *stammende
Pflanzenname ist in fast allen europäischen Sprachen vertreten, vgl. z.B.
entsprechend *it. *tulipano, *frz. *tulipe (älter: tulipan), *span. *tulipán,
*port. *tulipa, *engl. *tulip, *niederl. *tulp[e], *schwed.* tulpan u.a.
Diese alle gehen letztlich auf *pers.-osmanisch *tülbant, tülbent "Turban"
zurück. Die Pflanze ist also (von Europäern) nach ihrem turbanförmigen
Blütenkelch benannt worden.
Lit.: DUDEN 7

Von Mai*glocke *swenkt ick mal nah *Glocken*blumengewächse:

http://nafoku.de/flora/campanulaceae/index.htm

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Glockenblumengewächse

Un villicht känen wi all de Blaumen ehr Beiern, Lüden odder Bimmeln hüern...

Noch is dat hier wedder kolt worden, oewer för dat Weekenend' vermelln de
Wäderaporten all
20 °, wat seggst nu...

Hartlich.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 30 23:38:18 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:38:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2011.03.30 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.30.MAR.2011.163818.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 30 March - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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============================== =======================



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.30 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Hallo Paul un Ron un all' Lowlanners.

Nu sall dat Oog ok noch up sien Kosten kamen:

http://www.fotosearch.de/bilder-fotos/nord-amerikanische-amsel.html

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotkehlchen

*Swartdraußel* f. Schwarzdrossel, Amsel
*Rodböster *Rotkehlchen 1992 Vogel des Jahres

*Rodböster*

Worte: Hannelore Hinz
Melodie (Chorsatz): Eberhard Barbi

Rodböster, Rodböster
din Kähl lücht' so rod.
Wat sall dat bedüden,
kümmst du nu betiden
womoeglich in Not?

Den'n Abend, den'n Abend
süngst du dor för mi?
Dat klüng' all' so trurig,
un ick set' so lurig,
ick stah di je bi.

Lütt Vagel, lütt Vagel
din Bost glummt so wit.
Sall de mi wohrschugen?
Mößt höger nu bugen,
ward bäter din Tit.

Rodböster, Rodböster
din Leed klüng' so heit.
Dat sall mi bedüden,
du brukst uns tautiden,
de Minsch dat nu weit. . .

Un wedder ein hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 30 23:43:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:43:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.03.30 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.MAR.2011.164338.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 30 March - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L Resources

Learn some West-Flemish from the clip at:

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=BLBCA_20110329_001



Regards,

Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 31 16:39:56 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:39:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.31 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.31.MAR.2011.093956.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 31 March - Volume 01
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============================== =======================



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L Translations

Who can translate this language:

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/38/Je-Kinderen/article/detail/1243856/2011/03/31/Wat-hebben-deze-tweelingen-elkaar-te-zeggen.dhtml



Regards,

Roger





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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar  1 17:16:53 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 09:16:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.03.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.MAR.2011.091653.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 March 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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=====================================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in March of 2011!



First of all, welcome to those of you that joined us since the beginning of
the February 2011!


*United States of America*:
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 Before I get to regular list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:



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*List Mail v Private Mail*

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Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
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lowlands-l.net/codes.php



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If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
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If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
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Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
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Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
sassisch at yahoo.com



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 20:36:19 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 12:36:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Memorization" 2011.03.07 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.123619.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by the frequent use of the structure [[numeral] different
[noun pl]] in English and the equivalent German structure [[numeral] *
verschiedene* [noun pl]].

The use of ?different? (or *verschiedene*) with numerals seems justified if
it emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.

* She baked three different cakes.
  (= She baked three different types of cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five different occasions.



Why do people insist on using this structure? Is it to emphasize the number?
What are your opinions on this?



Is this structure used in other Lowlands languages?

Thanks!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 20:37:02 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 12:37:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.123702.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by the frequent use of the structure [[numeral] different
[noun pl]] in English and the equivalent German structure [[numeral] *
verschiedene* [noun pl]].

The use of ?different? (or *verschiedene*) with numerals seems justified if
it emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.

* She baked three different cakes.
  (= She baked three different types of cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five different occasions.



Why do people insist on using this structure? Is it to emphasize the number?
What are your opinions on this?



Is this structure used in other Lowlands languages?

Thanks!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 22:44:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:44:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.144443.0800.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Memorization" 2011.03.07 (01) [EN]



Ron asked: ?Why do people insist on using this structure? Is it to emphasize
the number? What are your opinions on this??

I think it emphasizes the fact that the items are of one class of things
(cake, language), but they are different. At least that?s how I understand
it as a native speaker. I could easily say, ?She baked three cakes,? and of
course the cakes are different. But, when I add ?different? I?m emphasizing
that they aren?t the same. For example, I can imagine saying, ?She baked
three different chocolate cakes.? By that I would mean, they?re all
chocolate, but different kinds of chocolate. I don?t feel that it?s
emphasizing the number, but rather the difference.

Mark Brooks



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Thanks, Mark. Good point.

But what about the now frequent colloquial use of ?different? where it is
redundant?

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five different occasions.



Regards,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 22:55:52 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:55:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.145552.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Memorization"



Beste Ron,



You wrote:

Why do people insist on using this structure? Is it to emphasize the number?
What are your opinions on this?



People use fuzzy logic I think. Four different languages, like in the case
of Switzerland, means those languages are very different, not dialects of
one and the same "Dachsprache", not mutually intelligible either. Strictly
speaking, every language is indeed different from any other one, but some
people try to think "positive, forgiving and inclusive", as long as the
difference is not that big. Say, on a local level, Estuary English is indeed
different from Kentish, but on a higher level, viewed from a distance, they
may be perceived as one, both just being termed, "English".



Is this structure used in other Lowlands languages?



Definitely. Brabantish has "tefrent" (< different (F)) and "verschi?,
verschillige" for "verscheidene, verschillende" (D).



I think it makes sense to wonder if anything at all can ever be fully equal
to anything else. At least one property will always differ I think. If two
objects look perfectly alike, they will still occupy a different place,
making their location different. Even if they occupy the same space (bit
hard to imagine in plain 3D), their history may be different. One way or
another, there is always a minor difference. Following that line of thought,
you could dump the word "different" altogether, only using the term "same",
if you want to describe that two objects have a certain feature in common. I
doubt whether the human mind would be comfortable with that minimalist
approach though.



There seem to be two tendencies that sort of contradict each other: a call
for diversity on the one hand (languages, species), and an urge for purism
on the other. Makes me think of an article I read last week:



Te veel keus maakt singles eenzaam - Wetenschap - Nieuws -
Knack.be<http://knack.rnews.be/nl/actualiteit/nieuws/wetenschap/te-veel-keus-maakt-singles-eenzaam/article-1194961588528.htm>



Given a limited amount of time, singles had the opportunity to find a date
(so called speeddating). The result was that those that were given a huge
number of potential partners ultimately found far fewer dates than those
that had received but few. "Die Qual der Wahl", in German ;=) Diversity is
intrinsically OK, but a bewildering array of options merely baffles people.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  7 23:57:45 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 15:57:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.155745.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 February 2011 - Volume 04
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



The word ?separate? can sometimes be used the same way.



- I spoke with him on five separate occasions.



Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, MD



----------



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



But the languages *are* different! There *is* reason for a quiet little
expression of astonishment at the four languages of Switzerland. Who will
grudge this little by-word of wonder? And maybe the four occasions when you
"spoke with him" were different as well? Not four times the same occasion?
Each one remarkable in itself? I see no problem with this use of words. It
surely emphasizes the complexity, often heaviness, of how things go on ("I
had to speak to four different people to get four different
forms/stamps/permissions...", just think of german bureaucracy!), but things
*are* complex, and there ist difference everywhere. I think difference is
rather underrepresented generally. I don't mind to have it a little
overrepresented now and then.



Hartlich!



Marlou



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



But what about the now frequent colloquial use of ?different? where it is
redundant?



* There are four different languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five different occasions.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Thanks, Kevin and Marlou.

Nice point about ?separate? in place of ?different,? Kevin.

In any case, in terms of grammar at least, it should be possible to
formulate the opposites thusly:



* There are four identical languages in Switzerland.

* I spoke with him on five identical occasions.



The first seems quite ungrammatical to me. As Luc already mentioned, where
you have more than one language there is diversity.

It would be different if you said:

* There are four very different languages in Switzerland.
  (This would be understood as "of very different types/genealogies.")

"I spoke with him on five identical occasions" seems marginally grammatical,
albeit awkward, to me in that it could denote ?same kinds of occasions.?

Consider further examples randomly picked off the Internet:

* Three Different Directions
  (<> Three Identical Directions?)
  www.threedifferentdirections.com/

* Five Different Reasons to Ride a Bicycle
  (<> Five Identical Reasons to Ride a Bicycle?)
  www.bicyclinglife.com/newsandviews/5_Different_Reasons.htm

* Ten different expressions
  (<> Ten identical expressions?)
  www.thehindu.com ? Arts ? Art

It seems to me that the ?gratuitous? use of ?different? with numbers
represents a transition into idiomatic form.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar  8 03:06:56 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:06:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.07 (5) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.7.MAR.2011.190656.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Lowlanders,

Just want to inform you about a tradition that hasn't received any attention
until now...as far as I know.

Most of you will be familiar with something that Americans call "prom
night", an event where high school students are organising a ball, dressed
in formal attire. This is a so-called "galabal" in my neck of the woods,
happening usually at the very end of the school year.

What may set the (Southern) Lowlands apart is our "Chrysostomos party". One
hundred days before graduation, 12th grade students hand over a symbolic key
to 11th graders. Relations within school are turned upside down for a day
(chaos and masks, reminiscent of carnival), teachers are parodied,
classrooms are "redecorated" and some get an award (best dressed
student/teacher, smartest, most attractive...). Got one this year myself
btw...not telling ;=)P

In Flanders, it's called "100 dagen" (Mak ? 100 in Italy), in the East,
we're talking about "Chrysostomos". Chrysostom was an early Christian church
father, well known for his eloquence. The guy grew up in modern-day Turkey
(just like Saint Nicholas) and was considered patron of "Retorica", name of
the final class of the traditional Latin-Greek education system (11th grade
was Po?sis, in use till the mid eighties of last century).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar  8 18:14:10 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:14:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.8.MAR.2011.101410.0800.>

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From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Grammer" [EN-AF]



Beste Laaglanders,



Ron wrote:

The use of ?different? (or verschiedene) with numerals seems justified if it
emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.

* She baked three different cakes.

  (= She baked three different types of cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.



First of all, most Afrikaans speakers from all walks of life will say:

* Sy het drie verskillende koeke gebak.

* Daar is twaalf verskillende (inheemse) tale in Suid Afrika.



Secondly, the use of different ("verskillend") involves an unspoken habit
(convention): no categorisation is implied. Should we say:

There are four types of languages in South Africa.

"Daar is vier soorte tale in Suid Afrika".

the majority Afrikaans speakers will understand that it refers to the (1)
Xhoisan, (2) European, (3) Banthu and (4) Asian languages.



Only a few people, even in the hey-days of Apartheid (separatism) would say:

There are twelve separate languages in South Africa.

"Daar is twaalf aparte (afsonderlike) tale in Suid Afrika".



Please note that i only describe MY observations. I will not offer
explanations for these observations.



Mooi loop

At de Lange



----------



From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (04) [EN]



I think maybe Kevin hit on WHY different is used even where it would not
make sense (and I disagree slightly with Ron; I think it is an issue of
semantics  NOT grammaticality)


> The word ?separate? can sometimes be used the same way.
> - I spoke with him on five separate occasions.



I think (perhaps) there has been a confusion/conflation of "different" and
"separate"... and so "different" has come, in the colloquial at least, to be
used where only "separate" makes "sense".

 mwm || U C > || mike || ????  || ???? || ??? || ?????? (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)
===========================================================
Senior Consultant
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
===========================================================

"I have become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



"I spoke to him on five different occasions" would imply, to me, that they
weren't all on the same day, or in the same context.  It might typically be
followed by "and he still did nothing about it".  It provides an
emphasis (and in this case, stronger criticism) than "..on five occasions"
would.



Paul



----------



From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



Ron asked: ?But what about the now frequent colloquial use of ?different?
where it is redundant??



I meant to include that usage as well. Four languages in Switzerland
certainly are different without having to say so, but I understand the word
?different,? redundant tho it is, to intensify or call out, so to speak,
their distinctions.



Mark Brooks



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar  8 22:32:23 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 14:32:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.08 (02) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.8.MAR.2011.143223.0800.>

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Liebe Lowlanders,

ich habe hier schon lange nicht mehr geschrieben, aber weil jetzt (noch)
Karneval ist, habe ich mir im www Karnevalslieder angeh?rt und bin auf
dieses Lied gesto?en:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXIi-R5MFtY

Es ist offensichtlich so was wie die Hymne ("Volkslied") von Kerkrade und
wurde diese Auff?hrung auch nicht im Karneval gemacht. Ich habe es in
(hoch)deutscher Rechtschreibung aufgeschrieben. Die niederl?ndische findet
sich hier:

http://www.justsomelyrics.com/411048/Kirchroatsjer-Artiesten-'t-Sjunste-%C3%93p-De-Welt-(Os-Kirchroa)-Lyrics<http://www.justsomelyrics.com/411048/Kirchroatsjer-Artiesten-%27t-Sjunste-%C3%93p-De-Welt-%28Os-Kirchroa%29-Lyrics>

Diese Variet?t ist sowohl Niederl?ndisch als auch Deutsch, man kann keine
eindeutige Zuordnung machen.

Viel Vergn?gen!

Et sch?nste op der Welt

Et sch?nste op der Welt, wat der Herrjott/-jod hat jema(ch)t,
dat is us Kirchroa, wenn et singt en(d) lacht.
S?nd/sind bower us ooch de Wolke all ens/ins jrau/grau,
da d?nt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.
S?nd/sind bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da(r) d?nt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.

Tr?ckt/tr?zt me(n) d?rch de Welt wiet, ?ver Land of Sie
en(d) sieht me(n) dann ens ?we/eeve sing He-imetstadt adi(e).
Hat me(n) dann jesie wie sch?n de Welt ooch is
dann we-ist me(n) ze verzelle end dink janz jewiss:

Et sch?nste op der Welt, wat der Herrjott hat jema(ch)t,
dat is us Kirchroa, wenn et singt end lacht.
S?nd bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da d?nt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.
S?nd bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da d?nt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.

Do woar ens/?ns e Pl?tzsche, wo mi Wiegje stung,
wo ich de irste Schreie in?t L?we jung(?).
Do will ich ?mmer bliewe, mi jantse L?we lang
end ?mmer blief ich sage/saje mit Musik end Jesang

Et sch?nste op der Welt, wat der Herrjott hat jemaat,
dat is us Kirchroa, wenn et singt end lacht.
S?nd bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da d?nt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.
S?nd bower us ooch de Wolke all ens jrau/grau,
da d?nt wir singe, verdriewe wir se jau.

(Zugabe)



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tradition



Thanks, Karl-Heinz!

I understand the language variety is Ripuarian Frankish. It is the
predominant language variety used in a town that straddles the border
between Netherlands Limburg and the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia:

Ripuarian: Kirchroa
Limburgish: Kirchroa, K?rkrao(j)
Dutch: Kerkrade
German: NL Kirchrath, Kerkrade, DE Herzogenrath

The two officially separate towns together make up the European Model
Community Eurode.

This Ripuarian Frankish variety has a lot in common with the Limburgish, the
Low Rhenish and the Cleves-Bergisch varieties. But while these, like Dutch
and Afrikaans, are counted as Low Frankish (and thus belong to the Lowlands
focus), Ripuarian is counted as Central Frankish (and is thus just outside
this focus).



Intro with map: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ripoaresch-info.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 21:09:30 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:09:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.130930.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 01
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From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]



Dear Ron & Co.



*Subject:* LL-L "Grammar"



Ron wrote:



The use of ?different? (or verschiedene) with numerals seems justified if it
emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.



* She baked three different cakes.  (= She baked three different types of
cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.



As At has pointed out, the same usage is manifest in Afrikaans, tho' we are
not limited to only one term of distinction, as for 'different' in English:
Verskillende, verskeie, ens.



Ron, I know some purists of language have long taken against redundancies;
however superficial exposure to almost any language shows an abundance of
the same. I believe certain redundancies are necessary to effective
communication. For example, ambient noise may momentarily block out the
single negative in an English sentence, or even worse, German, totally
altering or even reversing the meaning. Afrikaans & French with 'nie - nie'
& ne - pas & ne - rian' both are one up on English & German on that account.
Just a tad nearer to your example is the Afrikaans way of itemising for
example livestock by number, as in 'drie honderd stucks beeste' = 'three
hundred (items of) cattle'. Now also for 'drie verskillende oplossings' &c.



In all three examples the construction presents extra data supplementing
without altering the content of the message. If for any reason coms
are interrupted the data captured may offer more in the way of recovering
the complete communication: All to the good. Another point to bear in mind,
such constructions formalise the word-order (in an analytic language) giving
warning of specific information to follow - very important.



These redundancies, I am sure you will agree, are different in kind more
than degree to others, for example; 'The Thompsons have had a pair of
twins!' & 'I ain't done noth'n!' The former is an example of a simple
unnecessary redundancy, contributes nothing to lucidity, & in some extreme
cases actually need to be worked out.  The latter is of course simply
internally contradictory. Purists are justified in their hostility to the
same.



Yrs,

Mark



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (01) [EN]

Leiw' Lowlanners,

nah de grote Diskeschoon (Utspraak) tau dis'Saak heff ick mi noch 'n eins 'n
Kopp makt, also nahdacht.

Sie *buk *Kuchen.

*Pr?teritum*/Aktiv/ Indikativ: ich buk - du bukst -  er/sie/es buk - wir
buken - ihr bukt - sie buken.

Nu mien Fraag: woans k?nn man dit up nedderd??tsch henb?gen, konjugieren.

De Plattsnackers seggen mihrstensdeils leiwer: *ick heff Kauken backt*, denn
* ick backte Kauken *is hier nich so beg?ng. Dat is oewerhaupt so ein
Eigenoort, dat de Platt??tschen v?l *ick heff *usw. seggen.

Dit w??r mi mal verlangen.

Ick heff gistern an'n Frugensdag  as Fru f?r Frugens up de Treckfiedel
upsp?lt, sei harden mi anglesiert (engagiert).

Hartlich.

Hanne



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tradition



Beste Hanne,

Na mien Dinken is NDS ?backen? swack, nich stark as *backen* in?t D??tsche:

Nutied: ik back, du backst, he backt, wi backt ~ backen

Verle?dene Tied: ik back, du backst, he back, wi backen
Afslatene Tied: ik heff backt, du hest backt, he hett backt, wi hebbt backt



Gr?tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 21:12:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:12:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.09 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.131201.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 02
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.07 (5) [EN]



Alas Australia has adopted this tradition from its US origins.

Even crazier they adopted the silly English Upper Class practice of Debutant
Balls where young girls are presented to some

local man of minor significance. All girls wore white gowns and were
escorted by a handsome male to the podium where they curtsied

to the Big Kahuna.



While this latter practice is dying out in the cities in direct proportion
to the influx of non-English immigrants it still goes on

in rural areas with a local politician being the "lucky" fellah.

In Britain we merely had a school dance.



On 08/03/2011, at 1:06 PM, Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com> wrote:



Subject: LL-L "Tradition"



Beste Lowlanders,

Just want to inform you about a tradition that hasn't received any attention
until now...as far as I know.

Most of you will be familiar with something that Americans call "prom
night", an event where high school students are organising a ball, dressed
in formal attire. This is a so-called "galabal" in my neck of the woods,
happening usually at the very end of the school year.



Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized.
?Albert Einstein



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 21:19:03 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:19:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.09 (03) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.131903.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 03
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>
Subject: Vokabular: T?lpel



Leve L??d,

Beim Lesen von
 Peter Strathmann "Die Vogelbezeichnungen im Niederdeutschen
Schleswig-Holsteins und Mecklenburgs" bin ich in Band 2, Kapitel 4.7
"T?lpel (Sulidae)" S. 28 auf diesen Text gesto?en:
"F?r den Ba?t?lpel finden sich im Wortschatz des SHWb wie des MbWb
keinerlei Bezeichnungen, allerdings deutet eine Bezeichnung
f?fr.-amrfr. d??skopp f?r diesen Vogel, die nur aus dem
Niederdeutschen entlehnt sein kann, darauf hin, da? hier eine
Vogelbezeichnung nd. *D?,skopp (Anm: ? mit Haken) anzunehmen ist;
aufgrund ihrer Marginalit?t k?nnte sie allerdings den Sammlungen f?r
das SHWb entgangen sein. Und in der Tat findet sich im Wortschatz des
MbWb eine Bezeichnung Doeskopp f?r einen "Vogel, der an der Nordk?ste
von S?damerika vorkommt und ungef?hr die Gr??e eines Storches hat".
Die diesem W?rterbucheintrag zugrundeliegende Originalquelle nennt als
Ort des Vorkommens Trinidad und enth?lt zus?tzlich die Information,
da? man den Vogel offenbar mit den H?nden fassen kann.
...
Nd. Doeskopp bezeichnet zun?chst also eine oder mehrere der tropischen
T?lpelarten und geht dann schon im Niederdeutschen oder sp?testens im
Nordfriesischen auf den nordatlantischen Ba?t?lpel ?ber
...
Der Nachweis der Bezeichnung im dieser Untersuchung zugrundeliegenden
Korpus unterstreicht trotz der Randst?ndigkeit maritimen Wortgutes die
verh?ltnism??ig gr??ere Bedeutung der Seefahrt auf s?dlichen gegen?ber
n?rdlichen Meeren f?r die niederdeutsche Sprechergemeinschaft
Schleswig-Holsteins wie Mecklenburgs"

Was meint Ihr dazu? Ist Euch dieses Wort "D??skopp" f?r die Vogelart
T?lpel schon einmal ?ber den Weg gelaufen?

Hartlich Gr?ten,

Heiko Evermann



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 22:17:57 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 14:17:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.141757.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 04
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Beste Ron,

> Verle?dene Tied: ik back, du backst, he back, wi backen



Dat zal toch niet waor wezen..?

Ick meen, in verledene Tied: ik backte, du backtest, he backte, wi backten.

Oder..?

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Dat is f?r?t Noordneddersassische vun D??tschland *wull* waar, beste Piet.



Dat olde pret. *-de-* is wegfullen:



ik bak*de* > bak (back)
du bak*de*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bak*de* > bak (back)
wi bak*de*n > bakn (backen)



Nutied (*-e* wegfullen):

ik bakk*e* > bak (back)
du bakk*e*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bakk*et* > bakt (backt)
wi bakk*et* > bakt (backt) ~ bakk*e*n > bakken (backen)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:26:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:26:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.08 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.152601.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 05
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2011.03.08 (02) [DE-EN]



Dear Lowlanders, dear Ron!

I have checked the article and map under
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ripoaresch-info.php and I have a dispute:
In my opinion the dialects of the cities of Neuss and Duesseldorf are not
categorized as Ripuarian but as Low Rhenish. Neuss and Duesseldorf have
"maken" and not "machen", "lopen" and not "lofen" as further south. I spend
part of my childhood in a place called Kaarst-Buettgen, 5 km to the west of
Neuss which is just to the north of the Benrath line and they definitely
have "maken", "lopen", "jruet" and "voot" for "make", "run", "big" and
"foot" but they have "tsiit" for "time" while the next village to the west
(Kleinenbroich) has already "tiit". My cousin is married to a real
Duesseldorfer from the Wersten neighbourhood and they also have "maken",
"lopen" and "jroot", Wersten is even south of the Duesseldorf city centre,
just north of Benrath which has already "machen", "lofen" and "jrooss". The
usage of ziit instead of tiit is typical for the transitional character of
the Low-Rhewnish diealects, moreover, old documents from the city of Neuss
have shown that the t > z development is a rather recent thing, in middle
age documents Neuss had tiit. My dispute of the above document is also
confirmed by the studies of Joseph Frings and the DWA (
http://www.diwa.info/main.asp?P=catalog). Ron, please study them in more
detail, you will find that Neuss and Duesseldorf are not Ripuarian but Low
Rhenish. You can argue whether Low Rhenish as a whole is "Lowlandic" since
it has already some Middle-Franconian features but if we are going to
include it into Lowlandic, it has to include Neuss and Duesseldorf.

Another obvious mistake on the map is that Low Rhenish is not the northern
variant but the southern variant akin to Limburgish spoken south of the
Uerdingen line while Clevish-Bergisch is the northern one spoken north of
the Uerdingen line. The map shows it the other way around. The dialects of
Eupen and Kelmis in German speaking Belgium are also part of Limburgish
(while Raeren is Ripuarian) and thus also the dark green Limburgish area has
to edge a little bit into the orange of the the East Belgium Ripuarian area.


Let me know your opinion!

Groeten,
Helge



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties



Thank you very much for the great help, Helge.

I have corrected the errors. Please let me know if anything else needs
attention.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:34:25 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:34:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (06) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.153425.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 06
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Beste Ron,

O, o, o...

Dat is dan niet zo best steld in et Duuts-Neddersassies..;-)

Et Grunnings bruukt (in VT; verleden tied) nog wel: ik bakde, du
bakdest, hai bakde, wie bakden.

En in et Stellingwarfs zeggen wi'j (in TT; tegenwoordige tied) ok nog
altied: ik bakke, e.z.v.

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

 Beste Piet,

War?m seggst du: ?niet so best steld?, as of dat Wegfallen ?n lege (slechte)
Saak weer? Dat Wegfallen vun d?t un dat is in de leeglandschen Spraken
totaalmang begeng.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:40:57 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:40:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.08 (07) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.154057.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 March - Volume 07
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.09 (03) [DE]

Ja, leiw' Heiko un all' Lowlanners,

du fragst an: Ist Euch dieses Wort "D??skopp" f?r die Vogelart T?lpel schon
einmal ?ber den Weg gelaufen?
*Jaaa...

D??skopp,* m.,  Dummkopf, Schafskopf, T?lpel, vgl. *D??sbattel*
Lit.: PLATTDEUTSCH-HOCHDEUTSCHES W?RTERBUCH  (WOLFGANG LINDOW) VERLAG
SCHUSTER LEER

*T?lpel*: Der seit dem 16. Jh. bezeugte abwertende Ausdruck f?r "plumper,
ungeschickter Mensch" ist durch Luther gemeinsprachlich geworden. Das
Verh?ltnis von 'T?lpel' zu den ?lteren Formen d?rpel, t?rpel und
anklingennden Mundartformen gleicher Bedeutung und die weitere Herkunft sind
nicht sicher gekl?rt.

Abl.: *T?lpelei *"t?lpelhaftes Verhalten" (17.Jh.); *t?lpisch* "in der Art
eines T?lpels, plump, ungeschickt" (16.Jh., zu einer nicht mehr
gebr?uchlichen Form 'T?lp' "T?lpel"),   beachte ...* ?bert?lpeln* "in grober
Weise betr?gen, ?bervorteilen": Das seit dem 16. Jh. bezeugte Verb ist wohl
eine Bildung zu dem  unter *T?lpel
*behandelten Substantiv und bedeutet eigentlich "zum T?lpel machen":
Beeinflu?t kann die Bildung von der vom 16. bis 18. Jh. h?ufig verwendeten
Redensart '?ber den T?lpel werfen' "anf?hren, ?bervorteilen" sein.
Lit.: DUDEN  7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache

*D?schkopp *m. Dorschkopf; auf Menschen angewandt dicker Kopf, Dummkopf;
auch Schelte f?r ein st?rrisches Pferd.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

 Is dat ?n Bewies, Hanne? Dat lett as weer dat eene Neddersassisch un dat
annere D??tsch, *twee* Spraken.

Amenn heff ik dat verkehrt verstahn, man mi d?cht, de Frag? is, of
neddersassisch ?D?????skopp? ook ?n *Vagelnaam* is.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:42:16 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:42:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.154216.0800.>

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From: pbarrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (01) [EN-NDS]

If the purpose of the List is to explore language in an objective way using
the findings of linguistics, then there is nothing contradictory about I
ain't done nothin'. It's not standard English but aren't we exploring
language that is often seen as having no standards just because it isn't the
language of the court, of the capital, of the government?

Pat Barrett



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  9 23:43:22 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:43:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (08) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.9.MAR.2011.154322.0800.>

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From: pbarrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (01) [EN-NDS]

If the purpose of the List is to explore language in an objective way using
the findings of linguistics, then there is nothing contradictory about I
ain't done nothin'. It's not standard English but aren't we exploring
language that is often seen as having no standards just because it isn't the
language of the court, of the capital, of the government?

Pat Barrett



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 10 18:08:30 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:08:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.10 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.10.MAR.2011.100830.0800.>

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From: Utz H.Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.09 (03) [DE]

An?n 09.03.2011 22:19, schreef Heiko Evermann:


Was meint Ihr dazu? Ist Euch dieses Wort "D??skopp" f?r die Vogelart
T?lpel schon einmal ?ber den Weg gelaufen?

 Moin Heiko,

in?t Poolsche is dat j?st dats?lvige: De Vagel heet 'g?uptak' un dat is ook
en Naam f?r "T?lpel, Gimpel, einf?ltiger Mensch" (seggt dat Wielki S?ownik
Polsko-Niemiecki / Gro?w?rterbuch Polnisch-Deutsch).

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.08 (07) [DE-NDS]

Hallo Ron,

hm, nu b?n ick nocheins bikamen un heff dit ok noch funn'n bi Perfesser
Vo?lo:
*T?lpel, *a. Spr. auch - ? - m. T?lpel 1. eig.:'Vele hofferdige T?lpel';  *
T?lpel* grober, unbeholfener Mensch.
2.  *T?lpel  *Halskrankheit,  Ziegenpeter.

Kiek mal, wat ick noch so funn'n heff: *D?s'kopp*  n?umen de Fohrensl??d
einen Vagel, de an de Nuurdk?st' von S?damerika v?rk?mmt un so grot sien
sall as ein Adebor. K?nn je sien, ick heff nu den'n richtigen Angelhaken
utsm?ten.

M?nnigmal is *D?skopp *ok ein Schimpwuurd bi dat H?uhnerveih, dat Hauhn
r?ppt den'n Hahn tau:
*du du D?s'kopp, hest mi v?r 'n Noors st?tt*, man, ditmal b?n ick woll de
D?skopp w?st.

Ok bi Fritz Reuter is dit Wuurd beg?ng'.

Hartlich mien Gr?uten mit l?tt b?ten Sp??.

Hanne



----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



Hanne:



Kiek mal, wat ick noch so funn'n heff: *D?s'kopp*  n?umen de Fohrensl??d
einen Vagel, de an de Nuurdk?st' von S?damerika v?rk?mmt un so grot sien
sall as ein Adebor. K?nn je sien, ick heff nu den'n richtigen Angelhaken
utsm?ten.

 Aha! Na, *dat* is een Fund. Daar hebtt wi ?t nu. Prima maakt, Hanne!
Krieggst ?n groten Dank.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 10 18:10:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:10:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.10 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.10.MAR.2011.101041.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]

and of course if you look at the rest of language as well, redundancy is
everywhere to be found... which among other things helps when there is
"noise"...



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (08) [EN]

Nearly all forms of English, with the excaption of Standard ones, tend use
multiple negatives.  The idea that "the negatives cancel each other out" is
a psuedo-mathematical argument that assumes the rule is a multiplication
anyway; when it is obviously additive.  "I ain't no way no how not gonna do
nuthin' like that" makes it quite clear that the speaker is being negative;
you don't have to go through all the negative words to work that out.

Paul

Derby

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 18:04:32 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:04:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.100432.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Members

Dear Lowlanders,

With regard to the enormous earthquake and tsunami in Japan, I very much
hope that all our members and their loved ones in Japan and on all Pacific
coasts are well and safe. Please be careful, especially if you live on the
North American Pacific coast!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 18:08:11 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:08:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.100811.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.10 (02) [EN]


From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]

and of course if you look at the rest of language as well, redundancy is
everywhere to be found... which among other things helps when there is
"noise"...



Hi,



This 'redundancy' sounds more 'sophisticated' when we call it :
self-correcting-factor.



This self-correcting-factor is to be found everywhere, and even is a
build-in factor in a lot of control systems.
But notice:  in language this control factor is used not just for logical,
semantic purposes, but also when expressing emotional levels.

[I could say all this again in other words, but that is a redundancy of the
self-corrector-factor. :)].

In descriptive linguistics this factor mostly has been manipulated as an
idiotic feature, as a feature/mechanism of the maker of the text.
But as all persons use this mechanism, it is language-systematic. And then,
of course, there is a overlap with rhetorics.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 18:18:32 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:18:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.11 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.101832.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.10 (01) [DE-NDS]

Dank di Ron,

ick heff mi bannig freut.

Nu m?ten wi je noch rutekriegen, woans de *D?s'kopp *uts?ht.

Ick heff all sotauseggen up halwen Weg wat funn'n.
D?s'kopp k?nn je ok villicht wat mit 'Spotted Dikkop' (Burhinus capensis) to
daun hebben.

http://ibc.lynxeds.com/species/spotted-dikkop-burhinus-capensis

K?nn je sien, dat diss Vagelort nich blot in Afrika l?wt...

Gr?uten an all' Lowlanners.

Hanne



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Leve Hanne,

Wo de Vagels (*Sulidae: Sula, Papasula, Morus*) uuts?ht, dat kannst hier
sehn:



EN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulidae
       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gannet
       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booby

DE: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%B6lpel

 Gr?tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 20:50:18 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:50:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.11 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.125018.0800.>

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From: Obiter Dictum <obiterdictum at mail.ru>

Subject: members

sjoe. dis 'n dem close shave this time
 http://www.reuters.com/news/video/story?videoId=194505631&videoChannel=2602
a nuke plant is ablaze somewhere up north here. connection by wifi via
russian satellite. for once of any use.

Vlad Lee
Tokyo


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 22:22:07 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:22:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.142207.0800.>

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From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (04) [NL]

Beste Piet, Ron & Laaglanders,

Op 10.03.11 00:34, schreef Piet Bult <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

O, o, o...

Dat is dan niet zo best steld in et Duuts-Neddersassies..;-)
Et Grunnings bruukt (in VT; verleden tied) nog wel: ik bakde, du
bakdest, hai bakde, wie bakden.
En in et Stellingwarfs zeggen wi'j (in TT; tegenwoordige tied) ok nog
altied: ik bakke, e.z.v.

En R. F. Hahn antwoordde:

 War?m seggst du: ?niet so best steld?, as of dat Wegfallen ?n lege
(slechte) Saak weer? Dat Wegfallen vun d?t un dat is in de leeglandschen
Spraken totaalmang begeng.


Vanuit het Westfaals gezien en ook na mijn taalgevoel of taalsmaak heeft
Piet Bult in dit geval gelijk.

Het heet ook in het Westfaals (verledentijd): *ik bakde/bakkede, du
bakdes/bakkedes, wi bakden enz.*

Je kunt ook zeggen (sterke buiging): *ik bouk, du bouks, ze bouk, wi bouken,
ji bouken. *Deelwijs maar vervangen door de eigenlijke optatief-vormen
*b?ik(s),
b?iken*.

In tegenwoordige tijd heet het ook: *ik bakke, wi bakket*, maar *ik bak* is
ook niet vals.

En ik vind wel, dat het wegvallen/vergeten van belangrijke vormen voor de
betekenis in het Duits Kust-Plat een slecht zaak is. Daarom valt ook straks
of later het Platduitse weg. Een taal zonder herkenbare tijdvormen is neen
nuttig communicatie-middel meer.

Jammer, dat het Westfaals-Nederduit meer of minner dood is. Zo is misschien
het Nedersaksisch in Nederland origineler Nederduits dan het Platduits.

*Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse talen
gewoon, maar sommige verliezen zijn toe wijd gaande, ook al in het
standaard-Nederlands* (het wegvallen van de *du*-vorm b.v. en de navolgende
verwarring en kunstmatigheid in het gebruik van jij/je en jullie - daartoe
een volgende keer meer).

Met echt-westf?lsken ?Goudgaun!?
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr?gge => Berlin-Pankow



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Grammar

Piet, Joachim, Lowlanders,

I?m switching this to English because I feel the topic is of wider
relevance.

Folks, I showed that the present and preterit forms of ?weak? verbs (not of
?strong? verbs) in Northern Low Saxon dialects coincide due to deletion of
preterit *-de*;

 Present:
ik bakk*e* > bak (back)
du bakk*e*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bakk*et* > bakt (backt)
wi bakk*et* > bakt (backt) ~ bakk*e*n > bakken (backen)



Preterit:

ik bak*de* > bak (back)
du bak*de*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bak*de* > bak (back)
wi bak*de*n > bakn (backen)

Piet?s reaction was something along the lines of ?then that dialect group is
in trouble,? and above Joachim agreed with him, saying something like ?a
dialect group that doesn?t keep its tenses apart is bound to disappear.?

I regard this never proven hypothesis as being based upon the superseded,
classic-humanities-based (i.e. Greek- and Latin-fed) assumptions that ...



(1) older forms are better than newer forms,
(2) more complex morphology is better than simple morphology



If this were so, then English and Afrikaans would have long ended up on the
scrapheap of the language world, and Dutch, too, would be highly endangered
for morphological reasons.

Furthermore, you, Joachim, yourself pointed out that the Westphalian
dialects of Low Saxon do retain the old preterit *-de* and are now
endangered. In fact, they are more endangered than are the Northern Low
Saxon dialects, most of which have discarded the preterit *-de*.



In response to me having pointed out that deletion of morphemic markers is
common among the Lowlands languages, Joachim write above:


*Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse talen
gewoon, maar sommige verliezen zijn toe wijd gaande, ook al in het
standaard-Nederlands*



My translation:



*The loss of this and that may be common in the Lowlands languages, but some
losses go too far, even in standard Dutch*



Question: How much is ?too far,? and who gets to decide what?s ?too far??
Surely it?s for the speakers to decide. In other words, it?s for the
language itself to decide what losses are permissible and with what losses
it can and cannot cope. *Equating morphological (or other types of
linguistic) simplification with a weakening language status is quite
unfounded.*


Vital (i.e., not already highly moribund) languages have ways of ?repairing?
themselves in cases of what we consider loss. Being today?s "strongest" and
predominant language, English is a prime example. It dealt with morphemic
atrophy by, among other ways, making its syntax static, inflexible, thus
compensating for the loss of morphemic object marking (by assigning subject
and object to specific syntactic slots). Afrikaans has abolished the
preterit altogether and uses only what used to be the perfective; e.g.
strong ?go? and weak ?bake?:

  *English*

*Dutch*

*N. L. Saxon*

*Afrikaans*

to go, bake

gaan, bakken

gahn, backen

gaan, bak

I go, bake

ik ga, bak

ik gah, back

ek gaan, bak

I went, baked

ik ging, bakte

ik g?ng, back

ek het gegaan, gebakt

I have gone, baked

ik ben gegaan, heb gebakken

ik b?n gahn, heff backt



In Northern Low Saxon (and even more in Missingsch varieties that are based
upon it), there is a tendency toward using the perfective form, especially
where otherwise ambiguity would arise in a preterit form. This process has
been completed in Afrikaans and in Hamburg Missingsch:



*Standard German*

*Hamburg** Missingsch*

*N. L. Saxon*

*Afrikaans*

gehen, backen

gehn, backng

gahn, backen

gaan, bak

ich gehe, backe

ich geh, back

ik gah, back

ek gaan, bak

ich ging, buk ~ backte

ich bin gegangng, habb gebackng

ik g?ng, back ~ heff backt
ik b?n gahn, heff backt

ek het gegaan, gebakt

ich bin gegangen, habe gebacken



Context usually counteracts tense ambiguity.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 11 23:31:19 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:31:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.MAR.2011.153119.0800.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 March - Volume 05
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Vital (i.e., not already highly moribund) languages have ways of ?repairing?
themselves in cases of what we consider loss.


Yep. A language cannot kill itself by morphological erosion. If the
morphological forms are important they wouldn't erode in the first place. In
the case of Low Saxon they weren't important because people could use "ik
heff packt" as an alternative. It's not uncommon that languages have no past
tense at all. If they need to mark that something happened in the past they
just place an adverb or a particle in the sentence to mark it. Works
perfectly.

Marcus Buck



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Grammar

As a result of ?classical indoctrination,? it is common to assume that
morphological complexity is superior wherever morphologically complex
?classical? languages are celebrated and taught as transmitters of
?classical? literature of a supposedly golden age.

This is so for example in the ?West? with its Latin and Greek heritage,
Southern Asia with its Sanskrit heritage, and the Arabic-speaking world with
its shared tradition of morphologically more complex Qur?anic Arabic. Is
there anything you can say in Latin or Ancient Greek that you can?t say in
Catalan, French, Dutch, Welsh or Kashubian? Is there anything you can say in
Sanskrit that you can?t say in Hindi, Bengali, Garwhali, Oriya or Romany? Is
there anything you can say in Qur?anic Arabic that you can?t say in
Maghrebi, Egyptian, Levantine, Hassaniya, Gulf or Maltese Arabic? Can you
say things better in morphologically complex Old Norse than in the
morphologically highly simplified Modern Scandinavian varieties? No! On the
contrary: the modern forms cope much better with life in our time ... and
they are a heck of a lot easier to learn.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar 12 22:07:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:07:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.12 (01) [EN]
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L O W L A N D S - L - 12 March - Volume 01
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From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>

Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.11 (01) [EN]

Dear Lowlanders,

It is said that the earthquate shoulbe the greatest one after Meiji Era. In
Funabashi, about 500Km southward from the largest city, of the Sendai,
Tohoku area, I could saresly to stand right in the first quake. Fortunately,
our damage is only some portcellan were broken.



But, in the northern area , the enoumouse damage was due to "Tunami".

Mybe more than 2000 people were dead.

 he whole situation of the earthquake and the Tunnami was not yet cleared.



Thanks for kind words of all of you.



Regardds,



Yasuji Waki, Funabashi, Chiba Pref. Japan



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 00:42:12 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 16:42:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.12 (02) [AF-EN-NL]
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste Ron,



You wrote:



This is so for example in the ?West? with its Latin and Greek heritage,
Southern Asia with its Sanskrit heritage, and the Arabic-speaking world with
its shared tradition of morphologically more complex Qur?anic Arabic. Is
there anything you can say in Latin or Ancient Greek that you can?t say in
Catalan, French, Dutch, Welsh or Kashubian? Is there anything you can say in
Sanskrit that you can?t say in Hindi, Bengali, Garwhali, Oriya or Romany? Is
there anything you can say in Qur?anic Arabic that you can?t say in
Maghrebi, Egyptian, Levantine, Hassaniya, Gulf or Maltese Arabic? Can you
say things better in morphologically complex Old Norse than in the
morphologically highly simplified Modern Scandinavian varieties? No! On the
contrary: the modern forms cope much better with life in our time ... and
they are a heck of a lot easier to learn.



I don't think modern forms "cope better with life in our time"; they are not
living beings, but merely the result of everyday life. Language erosion
happens spontaneously and is essentially the product of other processes
(speed of life, scale issues, type of interaction/communication, changing
technicality). Admitted, in turn, language provides feedback and can direct
those processes in second order.



Then again, since human life is too rich and delicate to be contained in a
"one size fits all" format, every language in modern society has more than
one register (archaic, formal, casual...), besides prose and verse. Today is
in many ways the sum of whatever that happened in the past, one linguistic
layer on top of another. Redundancy galore indeed, as human nature is often
inclusive, accepting and forgiving.



Therefore, since we are standing on those that came before us and because
society itself is ever changing (shifting values and relations), here and
there you'll find muddy sand, quicksand and hotspots in our linguistic
landscape (double negations, a zillion overlapping tenses, grammatical
exceptions). Whenever we detect such a faultline, most of us ignore it, and
still prefer to live under that volcano or near a ring of fire. Others try
to delete it, even though they know the delete-key for language is a strange
beast. It has a life of its own...worse, it never responds quickly, and when
it does, often erratically. Fear not, a linguistic earthquake is not an
option.



Regarding the ability to say everything you wish in a modern language (in
contrast with a classical one), yes, of course you can convey any message in
a modern language...but...h?w the content is being transmitted plays a role
too in how the message is being perceived by the listener. Take a
celebration (Christian, Jewish, Islamic...) and deliver it in the most
formal register available today...then bring the same service in Old Church
Slavonic, Latin, Sanskrit...understandably for an audience of people who
master those languages, and ask them which service they liked most. If
singing was also involved (where style matters even more!), I dare to
predict that the classical languages will score significantly higher. Why?
Probably because the words are found to be closer in significance to what is
written in a (holy) book? Maybe because phrasing sounds more solemn and
therefore more powerful? Or because those words are not so down-to-earth,
and require interpretation, an intellectual exercise...that some like. The
easiest way is not always the best way...in the long run.



Does the Internet need Latin?

Some Finns think it does, Nuntii
Latini<http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/>: the latest news in
Latin. If ever you're stranded in Vatican City, it may
be helpful, ATM machines offer instructions in Latin.



Old and new, all mixed, such is life. Let's not make an exclusive choice
between minimalism and diversity. Choose both.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



----------



From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]

Beste La?landers:



Onderwerp: LL-L "Grammatika"



Aldus 'n skuiler, wat geensins tot 'n ander se taalbelange kan bydra, al l?
die onderwerp hoe na aan sy hart.



Ek staan (uit 'n ander hoek uit) saam met Ron in die verband. Mynsinsiens is
dit die gebruik daarvan wat die ontwikkeling en toestand van 'n taal bepaal,
nie 'n versteende grammatika nie. Ek dink nou aan die Akademie Francais, wat
die algewone Fransssprekende daartoe wil dwing om hul langbaard priesters in
wit likens met hulle lewerwiggelary te gaan raadpleeg hoe om die belange van
sy hart te uiter. Sommige akademuci is eens met moed en murg aan die gang om
sodanige edelgesteente vir die Taal op te rig. Dankie Allemagtige vir sy
afstorwe.



Saamgestem: My Afrikaans het heel flytig sonder verbuiging se?vier, en so
ook die algemene aanwendbaarheid van die moderne Skandanawiese tale in
vergelyking met bv Yslands (Tog het ek Yslands lief - lang mag daardie taal
behoue bly!). Mag ek vra, Ron: Dink jy kan daar 'n verskynsel soos Hebreeus
in Plats ontwikkel? Iets gelykstaande aan Hebreeus se merkwaardige geardheid
om beide heel analetiese struktuur een kant van AB Hebreeus en uiters
Grammatikaals aan die ander van die taal spektrum te aanvaar?



This from a lurker, that can nowise contribute to the language-preferences
of another, no matter how close the matter is to his heart.



I stand (from another perspective) with Ron in this matter. In my opinion it
is the usage that determines the development & state of a language, not a
fossilised grammer. My reflections turn to the Academie Francais, that would
rather oblige the ordinary French-speaker to consult their long-bearded
priests in white sheets & augeries before expressing the longings of the
heart. Some academicans burning with zeal were once well on their way to
establishing just such an idolatry for the Taal. Thank the Lord it died
stillborn.



Conceded: My Afrikaans triumphed right featly without declensions, so also
the modern Scandanavian tongues in comparison with eg Icelandic (Even so I
love Icelandic - long may that language endure). May I ask, Ron: Do you
think something can develop in Plattish that happened in Hebrew? Similar to
Hebrew's notable property that embraces a very analytic structure at one end
of RP Hebrew & completely grammatical at the other end of the spectrum?



Die Uwe,

Mark



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L: "Grammar"

Beste Ron, Joachim e.a.,

Hierbij een bescheiden en beschouwende bijdrage van een 'Calimero'
(Calimerocomplex: zij zijn groot en ik is klein).



Het gaat natuurlijk niet om het gelijk hebben of krijgen, maar... In
algemene zin proef ik vaak een vorm van arrogantie tussen 'groot' en
'klein'. Ik bewonder en heb diep respect voor de kennis en kundigheid van de
meesten van de LL-L, die van Ron in het bijzonder. Ik voel mij dan slechts
een nietige Calimero. Toch proef ik vaak ook op LL-L een vorm van kille
arrogantie van (meestal) Amerikanen ten opzichte van de 'rest van de
wereld', die vervolgens bij mij vaak een nederige blokkade in de discussie
opwerpt.



Dit zelfde verschijnsel voel ik ook vaak tussen wetenschap en praktijk van
alledag. Een voorbeeld: in noord-Duitsland zouden volgens wetenschappelijk
onderzoek van enkele jaren geleden nog zo'n 20.000.000 platt-praoters zijn.
In de praktijk kom je (zelf empirisch vastgesteld) zelden iemand op straat
tegen waar je in het 'platt' een gesprek mee kunt voeren. Dat zelfde geldt
ook in de Stellingwarven: wetenschappelijk geteld zijn er (nog) ruim 25.000
kroem-praoters. In de praktijk vind ik met moeite slechts een paar honderd.
De wetenschap mag dan officieel gelijk hebben maar toch lijkt het niet op de
dagelijkse waarheid.



Ron: "Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse
talen gewoon..." (van Joachim) mag je naar mijn gevoel niet vertalen met
"The loss of this and that may be common in the Lowlands languages..." "It
was - and maybe - it (still) is" is toch echt heel iets anders dan "het
mag/zal gewoon(te) -of- algemeen bekend zijn" ("it may be common"). Vandaar
ook al eens een eerdere opmerking van mij met de vraag waarom van een
bericht in een oorspronkelijke taal vaak naar (wetenschappelijk?) Engels
wordt overgestapt. Hier schuilt (ook) een groot gevaar in, in onderlinge
communicatie. Vooral als het over het precies duiden van details gaat zoals
over een natuurlijke (geschreven) morfologie van woorden (vaak vooraf gegaan
door een natuurlijke fonologische verschuiving?).



Tot in het diepste van mijn hart vind ik eigenlijk dat een discussie over
deze fijngevoeligheden alleen te voeren zijn met gelijktaligen en dan vind
ik persoonlijk als compromis, het (Amerikaans)Engels daarvoor wel het meest
*ongeschikt*. Liever zou ik zien dat een ieder in zijn eigen moedertaal
blijft persisteren en de interpretatie overlaat aan de lezer. Daar komt nog
bij dat bijv. het zuid-Afrikaans, het Hawaiaans of het bijv. het Vlaams toch
vele malen lekkerder smaakt dan bijv. het Engels? In dit verband vind ik het
jammer dat bijv. het Spaans niet de wereldtaal is geworden die het
emotioneel gezien beter had verdiend dan het Engels. (Amerikaans)Engels is
prima voor een handleiding maar leent zich - naar mijn bescheiden mening -
in z'n geheel niet voor tekst met emotie (communicatie is -vaak- emotie) of
het verwoorden van kleine nuances. Een simpel voorbeeld: het Engels zegt
tegen iedereen 'you' terwijl het Duits, Nederlands, Afrikaans, enz. een
groot en niet onbelangrijk verschil maken tussen 'jij' en 'u'. Is alles wat
vliegen kan een vogel..?



Kleine talen zoals het Nedersaksisch doen momenteel erg hun best om die taal
te behouden. We worden door allerlei taalinstituten dan ook erg gestimuleerd
om vooral veel in die kleine te schrijven, maar... Het Nedersaksich is van
oorsprong veel meer een spreektaal dan een ge- en beschreven taal. Mijn
stelling is dan ook: het schrijven maakt een taal juist kapot, of ook wel:
het geschreven woord kent geen, of in ieder geval minder, emotie; niet te
verwarren met: geschreven woorden kunnen geen emotie oproepen! Veranderingen
in een kleine - geschreven - taal gaan volgens mij altijd ten koste van die
kleine taal. Er vindt in de praktijk meestal een ver-/opschuiving plaats in
de richting van de naburige, grotere taal. Vandaar mijn opmerking: "O, o,
o... Dat is dan niet zo best steld in et Duuts-Neddersassies."



Joachim: "In tegenwoordige tijd heet het ook: ik bakke, wi bakket, maar ik
bak is ook niet vals." [Ned.: niet vals = niet verkeerd.]
Inderdaad is 'ik bak' net zo goed als 'ik bakke'. In het Stellingwerfs (Ned.
Nedersaksisch) komen wij dat nog heel veel tegen en is het aan het gevoel
van de schrijver om zijn vorm daarin te kiezen. Ik loop, ik lope, ik fiets,
ik fietse, ik woon, ik wone, ik kiek, ik kieke, ik wark, ik warke, ik huus,
ik huze (=verblijven), e.z.v. Allemaal goed.

Joachim: Ik geloof ook dat de LS-dialecten in Nederland authentieker zijn
(gebleven) dan het LS in Duitsland. Ook in het huidige Nederlands kom je
meer oud-(Indo)Germaanse woorden tegen dan in bijv. het Duits.

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Grammar



Luc, you wrote:


I don't think modern forms "cope better with life in our time"; they are not
living beings, but merely the result of everyday life. Language erosion
happens spontaneously and is essentially the product of other processes
(speed of life, scale issues, type of interaction/communication, changing
technicality). Admitted, in turn, language provides feedback and can direct
those processes in second order.



I agree. Another important factor is language contact, which includes but is
not limited to use of a language by sizable populations of non-native
speakers, and there are various other sorts of foreign influence as well.



Take a celebration (Christian, Jewish, Islamic...) and deliver it in the
most formal register available today...then bring the same service in Old
Church Slavonic, Latin, Sanskrit...understandably for an audience of people
who master those languages, and ask them which service they liked most. If
singing was also involved (where style matters even more!), I dare to
predict that the classical languages will score significantly higher. Why?
Probably because the words are found to be closer in significance to what is
written in a (holy) book? Maybe because phrasing sounds more solemn and
therefore more powerful? Or because those words are not so down-to-earth,
and require interpretation, an intellectual exercise...that some like. The
easiest way is not always the best way...in the long run.



This is quite true in my experience. People tend to prefer special
?elevated? languages or language varieties for ceremonial and liturgical
purposes. This has a variety of reasons, most of which you mentioned, Luc. I
would like to add to this sacred/liturgical language as a symbol of
religious and often also ethnic identity. Classical Arabic serves as such
throughout the Islamic world, Classical Hebrew does the same in Judaism,
Ge?ez in Ethiopic Christianity, Egyptian (Coptic) in Coptic Christianity,
Classical Armenian in Armenian Christianity, Early Church Slavonic in East
European Orthodoxy, and so on. Latin happens to be used in Roman Catholicism
because the Church rose to its zenith under Roman tutelage, although Rome
was initially hostile to Christianity and New Testament Greek and Aramaic
would in theory be more appropriate (and are indeed used by the
Syrian/Maronite and Greek Orthodox churches respectively). And, yes, with
the introduction of more vernacular language content even many of those
Roman Catholics moaned that did not really understand Latin. Early Reform
Judaism, originating in Northern Germany and soon spreading to the USA, saw
19th-century Lutheranism as a formal guide. It was rather ?militant? about
getting rid of all that old, ?exotic hocus-pocus,? and this included
eliminating almost all use of Hebrew and Aramaic. In the meantime, a good
deal of the ?exotic hocus-pocus,? including Hebrew and Aramaic, has been
returned, just enough as to not obscure the Reform Jewish mission. This
happened because of overwhelming public demand, and many people that
demanded it knew little or no Hebrew and Aramaic. (Bear in mind that a good
majority of American Jews -- more than 50% of the world's Jewry (of barely
13 million) -- belongs to the Reform Movement.)

Mark, you wrote above:



May I ask, Ron: Do you think something can develop in Plattish that happened
in Hebrew? Similar to Hebrew's notable property that embraces a very
analytic structure at one end of RP Hebrew & completely grammatical at the
other end of the spectrum?



I?m not quite sure I understand what you?re getting at, Mark, but my first
inclination is to say, ?no.? ;-)

First of all, there is the unique type of analytic structure found in Hebrew
and all other Semitic languages, nay, in the entire Afro-Asiatic family of
which Semitic is a branch. In my opinion, this can not be replicated in
languages outside that family.

Secondly, the story of Hebrew is probably unique. The language changed very
little between the start of Israel?s Hellenistic Period in the 4th century
BCE (when Hebrew ceased to be used in daily life and Aramaic and Greek took
over) and the 19th- and mostly 20th-century language revival moment. In
other words, there are no real intermediary stages that in other languages
create a continuum. As a result, Modern Hebrew speakers have for the past 50
odd years been ?playing? with creating demarcation lines and registers. For
example, there are at least two registers of spoken Hebrew: ?ordinary? and
?classicizing,? in which even the pronunciation varies. Add to this Biblical
and liturgical registers, with which even the most secular of Israelis are
familiar.



Beste Piet, je schreef:



Het Nedersaksich is van oorsprong veel meer een spreektaal dan een ge- en
beschreven taal.



Niet ?van oorsprong?. Of ... beter gezegd, niet meer ?van oorsprong? dan
andere talen. *Alle* natuurlijke talen zijn van oorsprong spreektalen. De
Saksische taal wordt sinds de tijd van de Frankische overwinning
onophoudelijk geschreven, met name in the tijd van de Hanze. Het is echter
waar dat er in de 18de eeuw een literaire slop was. Niettemin schreven de
gewone geletterde mensen nog steeds brieven in het ?Plat?, en de meeste van
hen lazen ook nog steeds hun (Neder?)Saksische Bijbel met zijn oudere,
?klassiekere? taalvari?teit. Maar ja, het was en is vooral een gesproken
taal.

Tussen haakjes, beste Piet, ik ben het met je eens dat het aantal
Nedersaksische sprekers een heleboel overschat wordt. Veel mensen zeggen
?ja? als ze gevraagd werd of ze ?Plat? ?kunnen?. Velen van hen weten niet
eens wat ?Plat? betekent; zij geloven het betekent (in Nederland)
?Oost-Nederlands dialect? (dat wil zeggen Nederlands op een Nedersaksisch
substraat) of (in Duitsland) "Missingsch" (dat wil zeggen Duits op een
Nedersaksisch substraat). En anderen kunnen het Nedersaksisch meer of minder
begrijpen maar zijn niet in staat om de taal goed te spreken en te
schrijven.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
[Sakser, Duitser, Australi?r, Amerikaan ... hopelijk niet excessief
arrogant.]



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:32:04 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:32:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.13 (01)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.163204.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 01
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.13 (05)

Hi,

Concerning the bird-names 'D?skopp / T?lpel':

Last night my memory started working, and I think the sailors gave those
names to the birds.
It happened that a gannet landed on the deck of a ship, and making his steps
on the deck the bird made a completely clownesk impression,
and the bird made a helpless impression when it tried to take off again.

About 1880 a french poet wrote a poem about it.
At last, literature is a help for me.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan



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From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:33:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.163326.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.12 (01) [EN]

*Beste Fr?nd Yasuji un Ron un all' Lowlanners.

All lang' s?nd mien Gedanken in dien Heimat Yasuji. So ein deip Mitf?uhlen
kann ick nich in W??r faten.

Dat b?lkt in mi  tau helpen... un Japan is so wiet so wiet weg...

Woans koenen wi Lowlanners upstunn's helpen...

So weit ick ?mmer, wat sick so deit:
*
http://www.dradio.de/aktuell/1409962/

*Ut deipen Harten.

Hanne
Schwerin Germany*



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:35:16 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:35:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2011.03.13 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.163516.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 03
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Travels

1 - Flight

I have been In Wilmington DE again past week. After the forced stay in
Bangor, I reported about in January, I got a voucher from US Airways of USD
150 deduction for a next flight. Although I used US Airways again, I did not
use the voucher, since it required ordering at a 0800 number in the USA,
where I got a ticket offered that was 400 USD more expensive than what I
found on the internet. What you get on the internet over here is in Euro all
included. What you get offered in the USA is in USD, airport taxed excluded,
to be added at the end. So one should have a calculator at hand and be very
carefull.



2 - The return flight had a delay of 4 hours before take-off. They had
problems with the first plane, we finally got seats reallocated in a second
plane that came from St Thomas. That one stayed on the ground more than an
hour after us being boarded, apparently for an issue with catering. After
all, that waiting was not worthwhile I think, since what we got as evening
meal was a little bit of macaroni with just some stiffened milk on it, and
for breakfast a little 1" by 1" cookie.



3 - Before artrival I have been reading the customs declaration form. You
have to declare that you have no food nor fruit with you, and you risk a
serious penalty for a false declaration. I always have Belgian chocolates
with me, as also Belgian waffles and cookies, as well as dried figs this
time (dried fruit that you find at the Wallgreens tastes horribly, so ...).
Since I did never took care before, I signed for not having any food and I
was fortunately not checked at the custom gate. What is annoying me is that
in the US Airways Duty Free Shopping guide they offer:

- 180 g of chocolate covered blueberries, Wildy Delicious, for USD 13

- 4.25 oz of original gourmet jelly beans (... natural ingredients ... real
fruit...), Jelly Belly, for USD 8

- Luxury 6 bar assortment Godiva chocolatier, for USD 18

- 7 bar pack Toblerone chocolate, 7 x 50g for USD 10

A question for frequent intercontinental travellers: do you eat this stuff
before you leave the plane when returning in the US? Or do you show this
stuff spontanuously for inspection at the customs when entering the US?



4 - I used Amtrak 2 times. On Sunday for visiting an exposition at Yale in
New Haven, CT. For this quite short distance it takes 3:45 hrs with the
Nortwest Regional or 3:15 hrs with the Arcela Express. The Express train has
less stops, but except for that, it has virtually the same (slow) speed as
the Northwest Regional. I took the latter for saving some money. It arrived
25 mins late at Wilmington station for departure, which turned out to become
50 minutes late at New Haven. Since it was raining heavely I wanted to
shorten my stay in New Haven, but I finally did not since the penalty for a
ticket change was USD 69.

It is the first time I do some travelling with a train in the US. The seats
are confortable and clean. The toilets are not since the travel time between
Washington DC and Boston is very long and there is quite some commuting
public on medium distance (For very short distance commuting there are other
systems on the same rail tracks, as "Marc" in Maryland, "Septa" in Delaware
and Eastern Pennsylvania, "NJ Transit" in New Jersey, "Metro North" and
"ShoreLineEast" in CT etc.).

They only give access to the platforms 5 minutes before departure. At major
stations as Penn in NYC and in Philadelphia they take 10 to 15 minutes
sincey the want to have the platforms cleared from arriving passengers
before the give access to departing passengers.

Since it is all so very time-taking, and air traffic is time consuming as
well, I plan to use one of the long distance busses a next time (as e.g.
Greyhound or Peter Pan). Do some members of the list have experience with
these?



5 - Tuesday I used Amtrak a second time. This time South to Washington DC
(about 90 minutes). The Express was still too expensive for me, but I got a
business class at the NorthEast Regional for a small premium. In coach class
the tablet was touching my belly when down Sunday before, in business this
time I had about 40cm extra space. I didn't see any other advantage. The
business class coach is at the front end of the train, which requires a long
walk, but it has advantages upon arrival on end stations as the Union
Station in Washington DC. In Washington my busnisesses were all close to the
Red Line, and I even had a spare hour for a quick tour of the Ford's Theatre
(really worthwhile). I had a very affordabe dinner at the Cosmos Club at
2121 Mass Av (This club has a reciprocity agreement with our Flemish
business club "De Warande" in Brussels). In the late afternoon I attended a
book presentation in an auditorium of the Cato Institute 1000 Mass. Av.
There were quite a lot of extremely enthousiastic students of different
universities attending. While Europeans are generally quite sceptic when
dealing with political philosophy, Americans often have a religious
enthousiasm for the political stream of their choice.



6 - Wednesday I had some time in the morning for visiting Lewes
(Swanendael). I have passed at the museum (a copy of the town hall of Hoorn,
Nl), but it looked closed and there was not very much alive downtown. All
shopping areas are at at the outskirt of the town. On the way back I was
stopped in Milford, Sussex County, by the State Police for driving 81 at
a four lane road, with limitation to 55 mph. I can choose between appearing
in court in April or paying a fine of USD 98 + taxes, bringing the total
upon USD 196.65. In the US a customer never knows what he has o pay at the
end. The taxes added on the ticket include: ."Victim comp.", "Video Phone",
"DELJIS fund", "Transportation Fund", "Court Security", "Court Costs".



7 - Thursday I had some time at noon and I visited downtown New Castle
(formerly Fort Casimir, later Nieuw Amstel). It has a nice green with
colonial houses around the square and the old court, turned into a museum,
in the middle. It is quite nice, but apparently not known by the tourists
(In Belgium all those houses would most certainly be turned into caf?s and
eateries). I had a long chat with the guide of the museum, since he spoke
Dutch fluently. He has been military at Soesterberg for many years, and, as
many of his military friends from the Dover area did, found his wife in the
Utrechtse Heuvelrug area. There are regularily "Holland" events in the area
South of Dover.



8 - However informal the US may look like, at formal occasions one has to
respect the rules of the game. On formal diners as e.g. of the dinner of
chamber of commerce, one wears a dark suit, white shirt and tie. It opens
with an invocation by a minister of a church or by a rabbi followed by the
national anthem. For the New Castle County dinner last week the latter was
combined with the Posting of Colours by the DE National Guard. In Europe we
are not used to this, and I think, presenting the Belgian flag in such a
formal way, would be counter productive. Charity is part of the game: you
pay 200 USD for the food + water excluding other drinks, which you cand find
(for cash + tip) at a cash bar. During the dinner you are pushed to buy some
raffle tickets (20 USD each), last Monday evening sold by the real Miss
Delaware of the year,



I'm back in Belgium for just a week, and I will return to the US for Promat
(http://www.promatshow.com/). I attended that event before in 2009. I will
take care my fine in DE will be paid before I re-enter the us.



Regards,

Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:39:36 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:39:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.13 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.163936.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 04
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.12 (02) [AF-EN-NL]

From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Joachim: Ik geloof ook dat de LS-dialecten in Nederland authentieker zijn
(gebleven) dan het LS in Duitsland. Ook in het huidige Nederlands kom je
meer oud-(Indo)Germaanse woorden tegen dan in bijv. het Duits.



Ik geloof het niet. Heeft jij bewijs voor deze bewering (LS-NL authentieker
dan LS-DE)?

Marcus Buck



----------



From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]

Ron wrote:



Preterit:

ik bak*de* > bak (back)
du bak*de*st* > *bakst (backst)
hey bak*de* > bak (back)
wi bak*de*n > bakn (backen)

Piet?s reaction was something along the lines of ?then that dialect group is
in trouble,? and above Joachim agreed with him, saying something like ?a
dialect group that doesn?t keep its tenses apart is bound to disappear.?


If that be the case, then my home dialect (West Twente) would be in severe
trouble (which it isn't). The past tense of all verbs for all persons in my
dialect is simply the verb itself. We say:

ik bakken
y bakken
hey bakken
wy bakken
etc.

If that is a sign of disappearance, please explain why precisely my home
dialect is of the strongest persistence in a very wide area.

cheers,

Henry Pijffers



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 13 23:41:10 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:41:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.164110.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 05
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.12 (01) [EN]

We can only watch the videos with disbelief.  As a geologist, I know this
was always going to happen in Japan one day.  That doesn't make it any
easier to take in, or make me feel any less helpless.



Paul

Derby

England



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 01:28:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:28:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.MAR.2011.182801.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 March - Volume 06
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From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>

Subject: LL-L "Menbers?



Dear Hanne, Paul and other all Lowlanders,

 Franklich say, I could not imagine that the Damage of the eathquake and
Tsunami was so large and so many people were killed and cannot be foundif
they are alive or not. A source says that more than 100 not. A source says
that more than 10000 people would be dead.



In Chiba Pref. most of the Railways do not operate. Just now moves the
earth. OUr Appartmen house move raher strong.



Thanks again.



Yasuji Waki



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Members

Dear Yasuji-san,

It must be a frightening experience. I?ve been through a number of
earthquakes, including one in Japan. But I can not even imagine going
through an earthquake of that magnitude followed by several aftershocks that
are earthquakes in their own right.

Please just remember that we Lowlanders think of you and of all your
compatriots, little though that may mean to you at this time.

Please keep updating us about your well-being and about the well-being of
your family and friends.

????????!



Kind regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 19:20:55 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:20:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.14 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.122055.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 March - Volume 01
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From: azoy <azoy at sunrise.ch>

Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (06) [EN]



Dear all,

Of course we're speechless, but how can we -can I - help?
How to express our sympathy and solidarity?

Regards
Jef [Seguin]



----------



From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.13 (06) [EN]

Dear Yasuji-San:



Subject : LL-L Members News.

I repent not having personally extended my condolences to you & yours in
Japan. Please allow me to join with Ron & the rest on the List to this
purpose. My prayers are with you; be strong.



Yours Sincerely,

Mark



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 19:23:19 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:23:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.14 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.122319.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.13 (04) [EN-NL]

Leiw' Lowlanners,

dat Wuurd *backen *hett ok noch ein anner Bed?den.

*backen *1. backen. - 2. trocknen. -  *3. festkleben: **tau backen kamen, *zwar
veralt.; zu Schaden kommen.

*backig, backsig *Adj. klebrig: *de Fingern s?nd em so backig.

**backsen *kleben, Intensivbildung zu *backen. *1. kleben: *de Snei/Schnei
backst *der Schnee klebt. - 2. mit der Hand schlagen: *hei hett em weck
backst  *er hat ihm eine Ohrfeige gehauen.

*Backs *m. Subst. zu  *backsen. *1. klebrige Masse: *dat Brot is all ein
Backs *das Brot ist klitschig. - 2. f. Ohrfeige: *wist 'ne Backs hemm?  *(jda,
de M?kelborger fr??gt ?mmer ierst an, ob hei 'n Backs utdeil'n kann, wi
s?nd  fr?ndlich). - Sagwort: *Ik m?t 'n anschl??gschen Kopp hebben, s?d de
Jung', don kreech/kreeg hei poor Backsen. -*  3. Haufen, kleine Menge: *'n
Backs Geld.

*Lit.: R. Herrmann-Winter, die sich aber auf die Literatur Wossidlo/Teuchert
bezog.

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*backsen *Intensiv von *backen. *1. kleben: *dat backst  *gleich *dat backt
an  *klebt. *Leihm backsen *den Lehm f?r die Zubereitung von Ziegeln kneten.
2. einen Schlag, insbesondere einen Backenstreich versetzen (*s.
Backs)*:*backsen
*schlagen mit der Hand. Zs..: *klammbacksen *lahm schlagen, Drohung: *di
will 'ck klammbacksen.*
B a c k s e r  Kleber in der Zusammensetzung (Zs.) *T?tenbackser*

Nu heff ick hier wat tausamen-backst, oewer leiwer back ick 'n Kauken.

So as ?mmer.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 19:27:35 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:27:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.14 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.122735.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 14 March - Volume 03
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From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.09 (08) [EN]

Dear Pat:


Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Apologies for the late response to your letter (other events being uppermost
in mind).



I beg to object that the 'Aint done nothin' is internally contradictory, if
only for this reason: That I can anticipate the *need* for this very
structure to negate another negative sentence; an accusation, for example,
already couched in negative terms.



As in:

Father, "I sent you this morning to tidy your room, & you have done
nothing!"

Son, indignantly, "I haven't done nothing!"



Now if in the interests of lucid communication standard English needs to be
able to use this self-same structure, you may be sure that non-standard
English needs the same. Either the standard form must abandon it & craft
some laboured circumlocution to meet the need, or (as I know often to be the
case) those who use non-standard English must avoid the construction, or
avoid a klap!



See, I readily concede the cultural authority of recapitulated negation in
an *emphatic* negative sentence, but it is a special condition, as shown by
the fact that the recapitulation acquires momentum of its own, as in, "I
'ain't never done nothing..." & so on ad nausium.



You wrote:
If the purpose of the List is to explore language in an objective way using
the findings of linguistics, then there is nothing contradictory about I
ain't done nothin'. It's not standard English but aren't we exploring
language that is often seen as having no standards just because it isn't the
language of the court, of the capital, of the government?



Yrs as ever,

Mark

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 19:29:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:29:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.14 (04) [NL]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.122905.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar"

Beste Marcus, Henry e.a.,
Marcus: Nee, ik heb geen bewijs voor mijn geloof dat het LS-NL authentieker
is dan LS-DE. Dat geloof komt voort uit mijn zeer regelmatige contacten met
de 'man in de straat'. En ik geloof ook dat er hoe langer hoe meer een
groter verschil ontstaat tussen de empathische verhalen van
streektaalwetenschappers en de praktijk van alledag op straat. Vaker dan
andersom hoor ik een Duitse platspreker zeggen: dat jij dat (oude) woord nog
gebruikt! Dat is dan ook toevallig een taalliefhebber. Toevallig vorige week
bijv. nog het woord 'telen' wat bij ons heel gewoon is (D.: ziehen, Pflanzen
anbauen; Grimm: erzielen, tilian, teolian). Heb jij bewijs voor het
tegenovergestelde van mijn geloof?



Henry: in mijn beleving zijn het Twents en het Gronings (nog) de sterkste
LS-dialecten in Nederland. Toch blijf ik nog even volhouden dat het ook met
die twee snel achteruit gaat. Als servicemonteur ten tijde dat het aardgas
in opkomst was -zeg zo'n dertig jaar geleden- ging ik als servicemonteur
bijna huis aan huis en hoorde zowel in Groningen als Twente niet anders dan
dialect/streektaal. Ik kom nu nog heel veel op die zelfde plaatsen maar
constateer dat het dagelijks gebruik ten minste gehalveerd is. Momenteel kom
ik ten minste eens per maand in Twente en of ik nu bij een schrootboer kom
of op de Saxion Universiteit in Eanske, bijna altijd begin ik een gesprek in
dialect. Slechts zeer zelden (veel minder dan 50%) krijg ik spontaan
antwoord in het Twents.



Maar ook hier geldt m.i. het grote verschil tussen het empatisch lawaai van
enkele streektaalliefhebbers en de dagelijkse realiteit. Natuurlijk is het
waar dat er nog nooit zoveel boeken (en andere talige) uitingen in de
streektalen zijn verschenen als de laatste -zeg- dertig jaar. Helaas zijn
dit slechts een bescheiden aantal trommelaars die de echte muziek
overstemmen.
Het Fries heeft precies het zelfde probleem. Ondanks dat het Fries een
wettelijke bescherming geniet (er wordt momenteel zelfs gedacht aan een
grondwettelijke bescherming) hoor je het op straat veel minder (ook < 50%?)
dan dertig jaar geleden.



Ten slotte nog een praktijkvoorbeeld uit de Stellingwerven. Toen ik hier
naar de lagere (nu: basis) school ging (ca. 1953-1960) konden veel/de meeste
kinderen niet anders dan streektaal spreken. Twee jaar geleden wilden we
hier een film maken 'Et oolde schoelepad' en zochten vijf leerlingen van een
basisschool als acteur. We hebben  ruim dertig basisscholen benaderd maar
hebben geen vijf(!) kinderen kunnen vinden die 'fatsoenlijk' Stellingwerfs
kunnen spreken (laat staan schrijven, maar dit ter zijde). Dit ondanks de
laatste taaltelling in 2005 van dr. H. Bloemhoff die zegt dat er nog rond de
vijftig procent van de inwoners van Stellingwerf (Oost en West) het
Stellingwerfs kunnen spreken, zie:
http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellingwarfs.
Larie! Praote me d'r niet van...
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 14 21:07:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:07:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.14 (05) [NL]
Message-ID: <MON.14.MAR.2011.140705.0700.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.14 (04) [NL]

From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>



Beste Marcus, Henry e.a.,


Marcus: Nee, ik heb geen bewijs voor mijn geloof dat het LS-NL authentieker
is dan LS-DE. Dat geloof komt voort uit mijn zeer regelmatige contacten met
de 'man in de straat'. En ik geloof ook dat er hoe langer hoe meer een
groter verschil ontstaat tussen de empathische verhalen van
streektaalwetenschappers en de praktijk van alledag op straat. Vaker dan
andersom hoor ik een Duitse platspreker zeggen: dat jij dat (oude) woord nog
gebruikt! Dat is dan ook toevallig een taalliefhebber. Toevallig vorige week
bijv. nog het woord 'telen' wat bij ons heel gewoon is (D.: ziehen, Pflanzen
anbauen; Grimm: erzielen, tilian, teolian). Heb jij bewijs voor het
tegenovergestelde van mijn geloof?



Nee. Ik geloof ook niet in het tegenovergesteld. Ik geloof dat beide kanten
afgeraakt zijn van de rechtop Sassies pad. De een kant nadert het
Nederlands, de andere kant nadert het Duits.

 Vaker dan andersom hoor ik een Duitse platspreker zeggen: dat jij dat
(oude) woord nog gebruikt!



Dat mag zo zijn, maar het gelt ook andersom. Enige tijd geleden heb ik (bij
mijn recherches voor www.plattmakers.de) het "*Woordenboekje van het
Deventersch dialect" *van W. Draaijer doorwerkt. Van voor tot achter. Het
boekje is geschreven in 1896. En ik was verbaasd hoeveel woorden er
instonden, de ik uit het Platduits kende, maar de ik bij het lezen van de
Nedersaksische Wikipedie en andere moderne boeken in het Nedersaksisch nooit
had aangetroffen.

Marcus Buck



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 15 16:56:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 09:56:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.15 (01) [NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.MAR.2011.095638.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Marcus,

Jij schreef: Het boekje is geschreven in 1896. En ik was verbaasd hoeveel
woorden er instonden, de ik uit het Platduits kende, maar de ik bij het
lezen van de Nedersaksische Wikipedie en andere moderne boeken in het
Nedersaksisch nooit had aangetroffen.

Misschien is dat juist wel het beste bewijs dat het met het LS zo goed als
afgelopen is! Veel woorden die ruim een eeuw geleden blijkbaar nog wel in
gebruik waren, komen nu (bijna) niet meer voor. Natuurlijk heeft een
taalliefhebber een veel groter vocabulair dan de gemiddelde man in de
straat. Maar volgens mij moeten juist die laatsten een (streek)taal levendig
houden, en die mis ik hoe langer hoe meer, zowel in noord-Duitsland als in
noord- en oost-Nederland.

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 15 16:58:28 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 09:58:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.15 (02) [NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.MAR.2011.095828.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste Hanne, e.a.,

In oons Stellingwarfs Woordeboek van dr. H. Bloemhoff kowwe 6 bedudings
tegen van 'bakken':

1 - et bakken van brood, e.d.: knieperties wo'n bakt in et kniepertieiezer.

2 - deur verhitten geer en eetber maeken: een vissien bakken.

3 - deur verhitten hadde maeken: zokke stienen wo'n bakt.

4 - stevig vriezen: as 't d'r naachs goed in bakt, is 't morgens haneboken.

5 - intensief in de zunne liggen: ze liggen in de zunne te bakken.

6 - niet slaegen veur een examen: hi'j het d'r niks van bakt; hi'j is d'r
veur bakt.

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 15 23:39:30 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 16:39:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.15 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.MAR.2011.163930.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Etymologie ?

Best Lowlanners,

Dat k?nn je sien, dat ein von uns' Maaten mi verkloren kann, wo dat Leed in
Nedderland beg?ng is:

*Zing, lutje vogel, zing*

(tekst David Hartsema)

*Zing, lutje vogel, zing,
Ook aal kins doe ja nait tegen aal dij grote vogels aan
Zing, lutje vogel, zing,
Want t komt nait op grote snoavels aan
Ale rouken, ale oaksters komen mit heur grote bek
ale bomen hier bezetten, en t gruinlaand en t stek
ze lachen en ze kraaien ien t koor t hoogste laid
krekt asof der gain aander laid bestaait
Zing, lutje vogel, zing
Ook aal kins doe ja nooit tegen aal dij grote vogels aan
Zing, lutje vogel zing,
Want t komt nait op grote snoavels aan . . .

*(De annern Versen heff ick weglaten)

Hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.15 (02) [NL]

Un ick mein ok "Beste Piet" un all' Lowlanners,

kiek einer an, wo sick uns Spraaken de Hand g?ben.  Ick m??t gliek an den'n
Eickbom (Fritz Reuter)
denken, dor heit dat in'n iersten Vers:

Ick weit einen Eikbom, de steiht an de See,
De Nurdstorm, de brus't in sin Kn?st,
Stolz reckt hei de m?chtige Kron in de H?h;
So is dat all dusend Johr west;
Kein Minschenhand,
de hett em plant't,
*Hei reckt sick von Pommern bet Nedderland.**
*
Dank un  ein fr?ndlich Gr?uten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 17:37:23 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:37:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.16 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.103723.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Hannelore,
Ik begriep niet goed wat du meinst mit: '... wo dat Leed in Nedderland
beg?ng is'. Wat meint 'beg?ng'?
Disse David Hartsema hef wel zo'n 900 lieder en gedichten schreven
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hartsema
Zing, lutje vogel, zing is schreven in 't Grunnings.



Nuumt ji in Pommern een 'Eickbom' ok wel een 'Ekkelboom'? En kent ji dan ok
de uutdrokking: de ekkel vaalt niet ver van de boom (zo vader, zo zoon)?

Mit et lutje dopke en steeltje van zo'n ekkel kunnen wi vrouger mooi
'piepjerouken'.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 17:53:53 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:53:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.16 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.105353.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language varieties

Hanne, hest schre?ven:



Dat k?nn je sien, dat ein von uns' Maaten mi verkloren kann, wo dat Leed in
Nedderland beg?ng is:

*Zing, lutje vogel, zing*

(tekst David Hartsema)

*Zing, lutje vogel, zing,
Ook aal kins doe ja nait tegen aal dij grote vogels aan
Zing, lutje vogel, zing,
Want t komt nait op grote snoavels aan
Ale rouken, ale oaksters komen mit heur grote bek
ale bomen hier bezetten, en t gruinlaand en t stek
ze lachen en ze kraaien ien t koor t hoogste laid
krekt asof der gain aander laid bestaait
Zing, lutje vogel, zing
Ook aal kins doe ja nooit tegen aal dij grote vogels aan
Zing, lutje vogel zing,
Want t komt nait op grote snoavels aan . . .

*(De annern Versen heff ick weglaten)



D?t Leed is in ?n neddersassischen Dialekt vun de Provinz Gr?nnen
(Groningen) in?n Noordoosten vun de Nedderlannen, an de Grenz vun
Oostfreesland un dat Emsland, Neddersassen, D??tschland.

D??tsche Schriefwies?:

*Sing, l?ttje Vogel, sing*

*Sing, l?ttje Vogel, sing,
Ook al kinns du ja neit te?gen all de grote Vogels an,
Sing, l?ttje Vogel, sing,
Want ?t kommt neit op grote Snavels an.
Alle Roken, alle Aaksters kommen mit h?r grote Beck
Alle Bomen hier besetten, en ?t Gr??nland en ?t Steck.
Se lachen en se kreien in ?t Chor ?t hoogste Leid,
Kreckt as of der gein ander Leid besteiht.
Sing, l?ttje Vogel, sing,
Ook al kinns du ja neit te??gen all de grote Vogels an,
Sing, l?ttje Vogel, sing,
Want ?t kommt neit op grote Snavels an.
*
Gr?tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 20:56:55 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:56:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.135655.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language varieties



Dear Lowlanders,

Recently we discussed the not uncommon assumption that morphological
simplification equals deterioration.

As I did on previous occasions, I argued against that assumption, which I
assume to be particularly widespread in cultures and education systems in
which morphologically complex ?classical? languages are glorified and thus
come to be deemed superior.

I and others explained that languages are very flexible, that there are
reasons for simplification, and that languages have ways of compensation for
them.

I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex
morphologies with time. I personally can think of no such example.

Thanks.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 22:03:02 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:03:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.150302.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Language varieties



> I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around,

> namely by acquiring more complex morphologies with time. I personally can
think of no such example.



I don't think my knowledge of specific languages is comprehensive enough to
answer the question or give any examples.

But you seem to be making the assertion that languages always simplify over
time.

This makes me want to ask further questions.

If languages always simplify over time, then are the earliest human
languages the most complex morphologically?

If the earliest human languages the most complex morphologically, then why?
Why would languages be created at their maximal morphological complexity? It
seems counterintuitive. Wouldn't you expect them to develop in a reasonably
simple form then become more morphologically complex before starting to
simplify? If they could become more complex in the past, then why don't they
now?

The only way I can see this happening is if languages (or the protolanguage)
started off relatively random, having random words coined for each bit of
shared human experience, and then organisation was gradually imposed on them
over time (maybe even a relatively short time), and the more difficult
aspects of early organisation then gradually simplifies as each generation
"misses the point" of such and such a construction, or branches come
together and erosion occurs with the resulting confusion and suchlike.

Organisation being imposed on chaos is in itself a simplification, so the
whole picture would be of languages being first chaotic, then organised,
then streamlined.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language varieties



Thanks, Sandy. Great question!



No, I do not assume that languages *begin* with utmost complexity. I have no
proof for this, but I do assume that at an early stage a language develops
morphological and in some cases morphophonological complexity, but that at
later stages, possibly by way of language contacts, there arises a perceived
need for simplification of a system that is perceived as unwieldy.

Why don?t we have proof of this? I believe it is because such early stages
cannot be traced because they belong to the distant past, before the age of
recording. Furthermore, morphological diversity among modern-day descendant
varieties can rarely, if at all, prove that a given simpler morphology
represents an earlier or later developmental stage as compared to more
complex morphologies in related varieties.

Perhaps the closest we can come to finding indications of morphologies and
morphophonologies first becoming complex and then simplified is in the
Altaic family of languages, especially among the Turkic languages. (The same
may be the case among the Uralic languages.) There are numerous members of
this group, and we also have records of now extinct varieties as well as of
historical varieties of surviving varieties. I have claimed that among the
Turkic languages previously separate bound morphemes (particles) developed
into clitics in some varieties and further developed into full suffixes in
other varieties. Turkic languages, like all Altaic languages, are of the
agglutinative type and have vowel harmony. A separate particle has its own
harmony, a clitic tends to obey consonantal assimilation but not vowel
harmony of the preceding word it modifies, and a suffix is
morphophonologically completely assimilated, i.e. integrated. And at a later
stage, vowel harmony may deteriorate, as for instance in Uzbek which came to
be adopted by large communities of previously Tajik (thus Iranian) speakers.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 23:51:10 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:51:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Beste Ron,



You wrote:

 I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex
morphologies with time. I personally can think of no such example.



Did Martin Luther not go that way with his Bible translation? I thought at
the time, the use of cases was on the way back, also in German, just like in
Dutch and English (especially the genitive). He decided though to remodel
German after Latin, which made the language more complex again...for
centuries and centuries.



I'm not sure, but maybe the same thing can happen anytime. If a certain
language acquires status (could be English these days), and language
architects in other (foreign) languages decide to "reformat" their own
language in order to make it sound more fashionable, you may very well end
up with a complex monster (even though English itself is grammatically
simple).



In short, methinks, internal evolution tends to lead to simplification,
whereas external influence necessitates two differing grammars to merge,
possibly creating lots of "exceptions".



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language varieties



Thanks, Luc.

Interesting thoughts there, especially the alleged case of Luther
deliberately (i.e. artificially) reintroducing complexity to ?elevate?
German so it could stand up to the complexity of Latin.



In theory then, a morphologically relatively complex ?supreme? language
could motivate speakers of other languages that develop in the shadow of the
?supreme? language to aspire to similar levels of complexity ?at home,? so
to speak. Did I get that right?

Do you think that this could be why German is morphologically more complex
than Dutch, Low Saxon and Scandinavian, the latter few not having undergone
artificial ?Latinophile intervention? of the Lutheran kind?



However, I am under the impression that under most circumstances language
contacts promote simplification. The Scandinavian languages are great
examples of this, if you compare them with Old Norse and Icelandic. It is
quite likely that this was triggered by massive Middle Saxon influences and
the eventual absorption of large numbers of Saxon speakers.

With regard to my response to Sandy?s point in the previous post, please let
me add the thought that these days we are unable to witness the birth and
early development of natural languages other than those whose geneses are
those of language contact, or ?linguistic confluence,? so to speak.

Now, it may well be that in such cases we do get glimpses of early
?morphologicalizing? processes, such as in the numerous pidgins and creoles
of the world, most of which developed as a result of colonization. For
example, in Papua New Guinea?s English-based creole Tok Pisin
(Neo-Melanesian, http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/tokpisin-intro.php) you
can see how English-derived words are used to create grammatical markers and
also create a pronominal system that is more complex than the English one:



Past: *i bin* (< he been)

*Mipela i bin tok olsem. *(We spoke thus.)

Continuative: *i stap* (< he stop)

*Tripela i slip i stap. *(The three of them are sleeping.)

Perfective: *pinis* (< finish)

*Mi i lusim ki pinis. *(I lost the key.)

Future: *bai* (< by and by)

*Em bai ol i go long rum. *(They will go to their rooms.)



* *

*Singular*

*Dual*

*Trial*

*Plural*

*1st exclusive*

*mi*
(I)

*mitupela*
(he/she and I)

*mitripela*
(both of them, and I)

*mipela*
(all of them, and I)

*1st inclusive*

-

*yumitupela*
(thou and I)

*yumitripela*
(both of you, and I)

*yumipela* ~ *yumi*
(all of you, and I)

*2nd*

*yu*
(thou)

*yutupela*
(you two)

*yutripela*
(you three)

*yupela*
(you four or more)

*3rd*

*em*
(he/she)

*tupela*
(they two)

*tripela*
(they three)

*ol*
(they four or more)


[*mi* < me, yu < you, *tu* < two, *tri* < three, *pela* < fellow, *ol* <
all, *em* < him]



However, I strongly suspect that this use of initially foreign words for
grammatical marking did not arise out of a vacuum. Much rather, I believe
that the motivation was to replicate in this new intercultural medium
grammatical categories that existed within the native Melanesian languages,
categories that were considered essential in the cultures and thus in the
minds of the native population. In other words, mostly English-derived
vocabulary (with loans from German, Melanesian, Polynesian and Malay mixed
in) served to create a lingua franca that could perform all the fundamental
functions other known native languages could perform.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 16 23:52:33 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:52:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.16 (06) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.MAR.2011.165233.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 March - Volume 06
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.16 (01) [NDS]

Hallo Piet,

ick will di gliek up dien Fraag de Antwuurt schriewen. Wat meint 'beg?ng' *?

*beg?ng *?blich, gebr?uchlich, normal, usuell, gang und g?be, landl?ufig.

*Ick wullt weiten, ob dat Leed "Zing, lutje vogel, zing" noch sungen ward.

In  "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern"  (Meck/Pom) heit dat Eikbom (hd. Eiche), un NL.
eikboom?

Bi uns gifft dat den'n Snack "De Appel f?llt nich wied von'n Boom"

http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Der_Apfel_f?llt_nicht_weit_vom_Stamm

Hier kannst dat ok noch in anner Spraaken l?sen.

Hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 18 01:17:29 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:17:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.17 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.MAR.2011.181729.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
 Subject: Help for Japan

Dear Lowlanners,



having been absent from the list for a time doesn't mean to be absent from
the world around me.

I've read the postings of our member Yasuji-san, and I asked him how we
could help. Of course I didn't get an answer - his problems are not the
list, at the moment.



Help! How can WE help?



If (and I just say: IF!) the radioactive contamination of settled regions in
Japan should progress the WHOLE WORLD must help - whithin days!!

In special young people MUST leave the Japanese islands, let me say, for
around half a year. They MUST escape from the first, heavy radio activity
which might fall out - escape asap!!!!

In Germany we have done so some 20 years ago (and later) with children of
Tschernobyl (much too late!).



So, my suggestion:

LL-L is a worldwide community of openminded people. I guess a lot of them is
able and willing to host a young boy or girl for some months. These could be
millions - being the future of Japan.

I shall offer my house to them; this evening I'll try to get in contact with
the consulate general of Japan in Hamburg, and furtheron I'll try to get the
governor of Lower Saxony (there are some good familiar and
political relations) into the boat.



My ex-wife and my son (16) agreed that they would appreciate a Japanese
youngster between 12 and 18 in our family.



But - we have to avoid bureaucracy, we have to ship around it, as well in
Japan as in our homelands. It could be very, very urgent!



Though money for the international organizations is necessary - please try
precautionally to establish something else in your hemisphere.



Thanks!



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Members

Thank you for that, dear Jonny.

I have started a thread in this vein on Facebook, and hopefully people will
pass it on.

In the meantime I can report that I have also heard from our friend Tomoki
Minohara (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/minohara-en.php) and am happy to
report that he is all right.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 18 01:51:28 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:51:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.17 (02) [AF-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.MAR.2011.185128.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 17 March - Volume 02
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (04) [EN]

Hmm, Ron, a good question (and like all good questions, maybe one with NO
answer... or one with MANY answers???)

An old prof of mine, a certain Carleton Hodge, wrote a paper once upon a
time (I forget at present where it was published or even when) looking at
the morphological development of Egyptian -- from earliest records through
late Coptic... and he saw the development as being cyclical rather than
linear... with maybe a period of morphological simplification followed by
one of increasing complexity / moving from analytical to synthetic and back
again....

not being an Egyptologist (though i did at one time study Coptic), I am not
sure if in its long history we can find an indesputable counter example or
not...

mwm || U C > || mike || ???? || ???? || ??? || ?????? (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)

===========================================================
Senior Consultant
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
===========================================================

"I have become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)



----------



From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]

Dear Ron, Sandy, Luc & Co.



Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Ron wrote:

I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex
morphologies with time. I personally can think of no such example.



I can't, but I recall mentioning an observation on the subject that I read
somewhere in Bodmer's 'The Loom of Language'.



Well, I have hunted up the passage, & here goes:

He quotes Sir George Grierson who had charge of The Linguistic Survey of
India, who says:

  "The Outer Sub-branch (of Indo-Aryan venaculars) have gone a stage further
in linguistic evolution. They were once, in their Sanscrit form, synthetic;
then they passed through an analytic stage - some are passing through that
stage only now, and are, like Sindhi and Kashmiri, so to speak caught in the
act - and have again become synthetic by the incorporation of the auxiliary
words, used in the analytical stage, with the main words to which they which
they are attached...

p.411

The Loom of Language, *A Guide to Foreign Languages for the Home Student.*

*by *Frederick Bodmer

*edited & arranged by *Lancelot Hogben

George Allen & Unwin Ltd. *London** *1944



So the long experience of dialects evolved from Sanscrit show a cyclic
process, passing from synthetic, & by ablation becoming analytic followed
again by synthetic as the auxiliary words are incorporated into new forms,
to be absorbed, lost & replaced again by other auxiliary words. & so it
goes.



Yrs



Mark



----------



From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>

Subject: LL_L "Grammar" [EN]



Beste Laaglanders,



Sandy Fleming asked early in this thread:

?If languages always simplify over time, then are the earliest human
languages the most complex morphologically??



I do not think so. I have had discussions with the San in Namibia on their
petroglyphs (10,000 years old), trying to make out what messages it
conveyed. As i understand it, it contains no grammar, but suggests a
diversity of semantics based on a central theme.



I think that grammar in signs emerged and become more complex to make sure
that one of the many messages persist.



Then, later, Ron wrote:

?However, I am under the impression that under most circumstances language
contacts promote simplification. The Scandinavian languages are great
examples of this, if you compare them with Old Norse and Icelandic. It is
quite likely that this was triggered by massive Middle Saxon influences and
the eventual absorption of large numbers of Saxon speakers.



With regard to my response to Sandy?s point in the previous post, please let
me add the thought that these days we are unable to witness the birth and
early development of natural languages other than those whose geneses are
those of language contact, or ?linguistic confluence,? so to speak.



Now, it may well be that in such cases we do get glimpses of early
?morphologicalizing? processes, such as in the numerous pidgins and creoles
of the world, most of which developed as a result of colonization.?



Ron, I remember that in early days of Lowlands, we discussed this topic. I
stressed that Afrikaans is both the youngest of the Germanic languages and
also the least morphologically complex. In those days many argued that
Afrikaans is a pidgin or creole language. That argument is roughly 250 years
old, used by European linguists. Today i do not become mad anymore at such
simple arguments.



The first upsetting fact is that although Afrikaners (Vryburgers,
Grensboere, Voortrekkers, Republikeine) cloud read and write in Dutch, they
preferred to speak in Afrikaans. Even worse, linguists of Europe was blind
to this fact, unable to recognise spoken Afrikaans as a fully fledged
language able to express all thoughts like any European language.



The second upsetting fact is that speakers of European languages (Dutch,
French, German, Portugese), African Languages (San, several Xhoi, few
Banthu) and Asian languages (Malaysian) is that they preferred Afrikaans to
Dutch (before 1800) and later to English (after 1800) to communicate across
cultural complexities. Afrikaans did not only support a Germanic culture,
but also acted as a lingua franca for European, African and Asian Cultures.



Biological evolution into more complexity is not the brain child of Darwin.
It was observed and mentioned by the ancient Greeks and Chinese, the Arabs
in the middel ages and the Europeans during the enlightenment. Linnaeus (the
father of biological taxonomy) was perhaps the pinnacle of that development.
What Darwin did, was also to add a mechanism by which it happened: natural
selection in terms of environmental dangers.



In the evolution of natural languages, it is almost the opposite. The
fittest languages to survive is the simplest ones. Here the utmost goal is
not survival, but agility and interconnectivity. Neither is a spontaneous
phenomenon, but have to be gained by work. In this case Darwinian evolution
is useless since it focus only on spontaneous changes.



There is a far more encompassing viewpoint on how systems develop into more
as well as less complexity. Furthermore, it is based on empirical
observations. It is called Irreversible Self-organization and was introduced
by Ilya Progigine. It involves the law of entropy production, usually called
the second law of thermodynamics.



Very few people know how far beyond thermodynamics it stretches. The reason
is that it is mentally intimidating because of the complexity involved. I
have argued on several sites that it commands/allows both complexity and
simplicity. However, my writings seems to be too dense for most thinkers to
understand it.



Evolution towards complexity is favoured by open systems whereas closed
systems can lead to simplicity. Please note what Luc writes:

?In short, methinks, internal evolution tends to lead to simplification,
whereas external influence necessitates two differing grammars to merge,
possibly creating lots of "exceptions".?



What a great statement by someone who know, perhaps nothing, of (1) the law
of entropy production and (2) irreversible self-organization as its outcome.



As laaglanders wil weet hoe taalbevorming (?language morphology?) deur (1)
en (2) plaasvind, sal hulle maar eers Afrikaans moet leer en daarna met
Google gaan soek wat ek daaroor te skryf het. Gebruik ?ontluiker?, ?woes? en
?OS? as trefwoorde.



Ek is nie moedswillig nie. Ek is waagmoedig. Eenvoudige Afrikaans is in
staat om die mees ingewikkelde begrippe te weergee. Ek stel nie belang
daarin om ander mense in Engels te bedien nie. Ek het ?n passie om my eie
taal lewendig te hou.



Mooi loop

At de Lange

(Ontluiker)



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thank you for sharing your great ideas and thoughts, dear At, Mark and Mike!

Lowlanders, if you want to keep up with this thread and wonder about the
types of language structures we are talking about, please read up on them
here:

Isolating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolating_language
Synthetic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_language
     Polysynthetic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language
     Fusional: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language
     Agglutinative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language

Dear At, I tend to agree that ?simplified languages? tend to be more
flexible and thereby more viable as intercultural linguae francae, as shown
in the cases of both Afrikaans and English. And their simplification tends
to be the result of contacts. The chicken or the egg?

However, ?simplification? is really a very misleading word. The morphologies
may be simplified, but languages compensate, as I remarked on an earlier
occasion. In learning English and Afrikaans as a second language people have
to put a lot of effort into syntax at first and then into idiomatic
expressions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 18 17:37:37 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:37:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]

I believe that simplification is often related to an increasingly logical,
analytical view of the world: In early times people viewed a rock that was
being thrown to be in some way a different "thing" from the same rock when
it was sitting on the ground, and the person throwing the rock was different
from the one having it thrown at them. You therefore need somehow different
words.



The idea of expressing "rock-being-thrown-ness" and
"rock-sitting-on-the-ground-ness" by simply re-arranging the same few
simpler words is a development of logic.



It is difficult to imagine the reverse process occurring, so that may
explain why grammar doesn't get more complex.



Also, the world of more ancient people, with simpler technologies, simply
didn't have the same amount of things in them to name. As bronze and iron,
ploughs and microchips turn up, you are probably less inclined give each of
them half a dozen different names according to their circumstances.



Paul



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (04) [EN]

Sandy wrote:

"If languages always simplify over time, then are the earliest human
languages the most complex morphologically?

If the earliest human languages the most complex morphologically, then why?
Why would languages be created at their maximal morphological complexity? It
seems counterintuitive. Wouldn't you expect them to develop in a reasonably
simple form then become more morphologically complex before starting to
simplify? If they could become more complex in the past, then why don't they
now?"



It depends on when we're talking about language evolving. Logically you
would expect that, and I believe it did - but not in modern humans. By the
time anything like us turns up, language has become fully developed. That
development involved, I believe, coming up with vocalisations for more and
more things, but with no real rationale or classification. Thus virtually
every thing, in every situation, needed its own word or words. That results
in an extremely complex situation in the language, that further development
of thought and ideas allows one to progressively simplify and rationalise.



Paul

Derby

England



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]



From: Hellinckx Luc
<luc.hellinckx at gmail.com<http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>>


Subject: LL-L "Grammar"



Beste Ron,



You wrote:

I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex
morphologies with time. I personally can think of no such example.



Did Martin Luther not go that way with his Bible translation? I thought at
the time, the use of cases was on the way back, also in German, just like in
Dutch and English (especially the genitive). He decided though to remodel
German after Latin, which made the language more complex again...for
centuries and centuries.



This sounds exceptionally unlikely to me, and there is no evidence that
pre-Luther High German was less inflected.



All older Germanic languages, including Old English, are highly inflected,
and the inflections of each can be related to the other showing a common
ancestor. If Luther had deliberatley invented modern German cases they would
directly reflect latin ones - why no Vocative or Ablative for example?



And what would induce an entire nation (actually many nations) to take this
complex system up, when the vast majority were illiterate anyway? in
particular, why would the Catholic South have inflected German, if it were
the invention of a heretical Protestant Northerner?



My interest in mediaeval swordsmanship leads me to many German
"Fechtbuecher" from the Middle Ages. The works of Von Danzig, Liechtenauer,
Ringeck and others pre-date the Reformation - and all use inflected German.



Paul

Derby

England



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Language varieties



> However, I strongly suspect that this use of initially foreign words for
grammatical marking did not arise out of a vacuum. Much rather, I believe
that the motivation was to replicate in this new intercultural medium
grammatical categories that existed within the native Melanesian languages,
categories that were considered essential in the cultures and thus in the
minds of the native population. In other words, mostly English-derived
vocabulary (with loans from German, Melanesian, Polynesian and Malay mixed
in) served to create a lingua franca that could perform all the fundamental
functions other known native languages could perform.


Having had time to sleep on it, I'm not so sure that increases in complexity
are all that rare. The Celtic languages seem to have examples of increases
in morphophonological complexity, if I'm right in thinking that the features
observed weren't in ProtoIndoEuropean itself.

Welsh seems pervaded with changes to vowel and consonant morphemes which,
although they become fixed internally to words, still show a pattern of
familiar changes throughout the vocabulary of the language, and at the
beginnings of words interact with the previous words in way that have become
tied into the grammar of the language.

Plurals in Welsh are also fairly chaotic, and Welsh has nouns where the root
form is the plural and the inflected form the singular, so we get:

plant "children"
plentyn "child" (note the change a > e, a system of vowel and consonant
changes like this pervades the whole language)
i plant "to the child"
i blentyn "to the children" (note the change p > b which doesn't occur in
the plural).

Many of these changes are hard to fathom and mainly just have to be learned
"by ear".

In the dialects of the English southwest, there also seems to be quite a bit
of grammatical complexity not found in earlier English. For example, there's
a system of gender where uncountable nouns are neuter (salt, sugar, sand),
objects that are normally stationary are masculine (clocks, houses, trees),
and objects that have a means of propulsion are feminine (cats, cars,
ships).

If these exanmples are valid, then considering the smallness of my sample
space, this sort of thing may be quite common.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Language varieties



> With regard to my response to Sandy?s point in the previous post, please
let me add the thought that these days we are unable to witness the birth
and early development of natural languages other than those whose geneses
are those of language contact, or ?linguistic confluence,? so to speak.



Not true!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Sayyid_Bedouin_Sign_Language


Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks for all the interesting responses!

Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:

Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are more
suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner
to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner?s
working knowledge.

Correct or false, and why?

Regards, and happy Purim!
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 18 21:31:59 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:31:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.MAR.2011.143159.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

>
> Subject: Grammar


> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign
learner to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a
beginner?s working knowledge.



I see Walloons have quite some difficulty with learning Dutch and German,
though both are national languages in Belgium. So most of them prefer
English as second language in school.

Other factors though may play a role as the international status of English
and some anti-feelings.

And those who learnt Dutch or German during several years are reluctant to
expose themself with using it, while the ones who studied English have no
refrain, even while talking with a strong French accent.

Regards,

Roger



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]

>The idea of expressing "rock-being-thrown-ness" and
"rock-sitting-on-the-ground-ness" by simply re-arranging the same few
simpler words is a development of logic.



> It is difficult to imagine the reverse process occurring, so that may
explain why grammar doesn't get more complex.



> Also, the world of more ancient people, with simpler technologies, simply
didn't have the same amount of things in them to name. As bronze and iron,
ploughs and microchips turn up, you are probably less inclined give each of
them half a dozen different names according to their circumstances.



This really isn't what determines language complexity. Up until recently
indigenous Australians did have a relatively simple lifestyle, but their
languages are some of the most complex in the world. In fact to fit a
technologically-driven language change theory to the facts, you'd probably
have to concern yourself more with explaining why peoples with simpler
lifestyles tend to have more complex languages!



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar

> Thanks for all the interesting responses!

> Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:

> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign
learner to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a
beginner?s working knowledge.

> Correct or false, and why?

Allow to me eschew the law of the excluded middle on this one  :)



There might be some truth in it but I don't see why German (say) isn't just
as good as a lingua franca: beginners make a dog's breakfast of both
languages, but as a bazaar language this is acceptable. And when you get
past the beginner stage, you can just as easily get as good at a complex
language as you could at a "simple" one, since what we're referring to here
as "simple" languages are only superficially simple, really.



I'd say the choice of a lingua franca will be due to political and economic,
rather than linguistic, factors.



The dearth of inflection structures in English and its laissez faire
approach to orthography does seem to me to make choice of English as a
lingua franca fortunate (in some ways) as other-cultural concepts such as
pizza, llamas and feng shui can just be taken up in English in their
original spellings or any suitable transliteration. But fortunate as this
might be (in some ways), it's not the _reason_ English has become a lingua
franca.



Sandy Fleming

http://scotstext.org/



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar 19 20:36:15 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:36:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.19 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.MAR.2011.133615.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 March - Volume 01
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From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.17 (01) [EN]

Hallo dear Jonny san, Last evening I sent my belated reply to your E-mail to
me. It was rather difficuklt to get exact information in a short time. Sorry
for my having made  you irritating.



Except the area of the problematic "Atomkrafwerke", no one will try to leave
their hometown. Farther, there will be no need to leave Tokyo area. This is
the first experience for all of us, not? So, it is not yet sure say, what it
would happen, But, there would not be the sendond Tschernobyl. It is said
that these Atomkraftwerke sind systematically different fro those in Russia.
And the situation and cause of the accident is also different.

 I think there are enough materials to help their life for the time being.
The most important this is how to reconstract the completely washed away
cities, and winter, coldness keeps us from working effectively and injure
health. Tents, maybe, cannot be use for sleeping, the snow covers the ground
most of the strickend places and and it it maybe difficult to find flat
ground to pitch tent.



The main roads are not still safe for lorries to carry the materials to the
stricken places. Mail harbours can be used again.



The Red Cross should be the most believale society to handle disaster
relief. I wonder if the local government, except prefectures, can work to
accept helps from "Ausland".



Thals heartly deep sympathy for the tragic disaster in Tohoku (Northeast
Japan). area.



Best regards,



Yasuji Waki, Chiba Pref.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar 19 20:43:24 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:43:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.MAR.2011.134324.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]
        and LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.17 (02) (AF-EN]

Dear Lowlanders,

Ron wrote: Let mi bounce another tentative assertion off you:
          Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans)
are more suitable as
          liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner to
deal with complex
          morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner's working
knowledge.
          Correct or false, and why?

I find this right (correct) because I am a 'advanced' beginner (English).

I have read all types of linguistic structures and they in a file stored.

Thanks Ron!

Greetings.

Hanne



----------



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

>
> Subject: Grammar


> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign
learner to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a
beginner?s working knowledge.



I see Walloons have quite some difficulty with learning Dutch and German,
though both are national languages in Belgium. So most of them prefer
English as second language in school.

Other factors though may play a role as the international status of English
and some anti-feelings.

And those who learnt Dutch or German during several years are reluctant to
expose themself with using it, while the ones who studied English have no
refrain, even while talking with a strong French accent.

Regards,

Roger



----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]

>The idea of expressing "rock-being-thrown-ness" and
"rock-sitting-on-the-ground-ness" by simply re-arranging the same few
simpler words is a development of logic.



> It is difficult to imagine the reverse process occurring, so that may
explain why grammar doesn't get more complex.



> Also, the world of more ancient people, with simpler technologies, simply
didn't have the same amount of things in them to name. As bronze and iron,
ploughs and microchips turn up, you are probably less inclined give each of
them half a dozen different names according to their circumstances.



This really isn't what determines language complexity. Up until recently
indigenous Australians did have a relatively simple lifestyle, but their
languages are some of the most complex in the world. In fact to fit a
technologically-driven language change theory to the facts, you'd probably
have to concern yourself more with explaining why peoples with simpler
lifestyles tend to have more complex languages!



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar

> Thanks for all the interesting responses!

> Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:

> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign
learner to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a
beginner?s working knowledge.

> Correct or false, and why?

Allow to me eschew the law of the excluded middle on this one :)



There might be some truth in it but I don't see why German (say) isn't just
as good as a lingua franca: beginners make a dog's breakfast of both
languages, but as a bazaar language this is acceptable. And when you get
past the beginner stage, you can just as easily get as good at a complex
language as you could at a "simple" one, since what we're referring to here
as "simple" languages are only superficially simple, really.



I'd say the choice of a lingua franca will be due to political and economic,
rather than linguistic, factors.



The dearth of inflection structures in English and its laissez faire
approach to orthography does seem to me to make choice of English as a
lingua franca fortunate (in some ways) as other-cultural concepts such as
pizza, llamas and feng shui can just be taken up in English in their
original spellings or any suitable transliteration. But fortunate as this
might be (in some ways), it's not the _reason_ English has become a lingua
franca.



Sandy Fleming

http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]



From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks for all the interesting responses!

Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:

Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are more
suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner
to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner?s
working knowledge.

Correct or false, and why?

Regards, and happy Purim!
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



It certainly seems to be the case that linga francae do have simpler grammar
than languages not shared by others. This is especially noticeable in Papua
New Guinea in the case of Hiri (formerly "Police") Motu, the Papuan lingua
franca, though Tok Pisin has begun to eroded its influence in recent years.



That is an interesting case because it exists side-by-side with its parent
language of "true" Motu, i.e. the speech of the Motu-Koita people. It and
its closerelatives all along the south Papuan coast have an inflexion sytem
of verb conjugations and noun cases similar in structure to Indo-European
languages. These are completely ignored in Hiri Motu.



The language seems to predate European colonial presence; it evolved from
the Motu voyages up to the Papuan coast to trade pottery for sago (Hiri
means "trade") though Australian Patrol Officers in the former Papuan
territory spread it far beyond the Hiri area.



Paul

Derby

England



----------



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]



From: Sandy Fleming
<fleemin at live.co.uk<http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fleemin at live.co.uk>
>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]

 "This really isn't what determines language complexity. Up until recently
indigenous Australians did have a relatively simple lifestyle, but their
languages are some of the most complex in the world. In fact to fit a
technologically-driven language change theory to the facts, you'd probably
have to concern yourself more with explaining why peoples with simpler
lifestyles tend to have more complex languages!"



Actually Sandy, if you read my post, that is precisely what I was saying -
older languages and simpler lifestyles are associated with more complex
languages. That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated the
language gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope.
Even our brains can only hold so much!



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar 19 22:18:01 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:18:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.MAR.2011.151801.0700.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (02) [EN]

from heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

 Ron/ Reinhard wrote


That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated the language
gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope. Even
our brains can only hold so much!

 I wonder whether it is a case of 'life getting more complicated' rather
a language becoming less isolated.

As different languages come into contact with each other, they create a
'working language' i.e. a stilted (grammatically) but fluent ( of
expression and thought) means of communication. Think of the sailors'
languages that have arisen among the merchant navies of the world  or
the trading 'pidgins' many of which have developed into permanent
creoles.

I take Sandy's point that English is not the global lingua franca
through reason of its simplicity - but through its imperial history
..... HOWEVER it may well have remained in post-imperial situations
because of the ease of learning / speaking simple English.  Despite the
difficulties with orthography simple English is more easily attained
than most other languages ( Higher level English or literary English
are something else!)

The reason is that English has moved a long way but not totally from an
inflected language towards an invariable

so that any one can learn to describe any object very quickly just by
learning the vocabulary

a big clock    a small clock  the small clock  a round clock  my new
clock     except for the possibility of adding an 's' to clock to make
it plural, all these are invariable: no gender  no number agreements
we don;t say   mys news clocks

The verb system is more difficult to handle hence the number of errors
made by learners: an over use of I do ....

as a result of learning through question and answer maybe  " Do you
like singing?" " Yes I do like singing"   What do you do in your spare
time?" " I do like singing"

But even the English verb system is an improvement on say most Germanic
or Romance systems:

look looks looking looked + auxiliaries      very simple to learn:
horrendously difficult to apply correctly in every circumstance

write writes  wrote  written + auxiliaries   still not too hard to
learn

I believe languages simplify in or after contact with other languages
especially if one or the other is dominant and of a different
grammatical system.

Heather

Worcester UK

after a long absence / silence



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar



Hi, Heather!

It?s great to hear from you again, and those are thought-provoking points
you make above.

However, please let me point out that the person you quoted was not I but
our trusty friend Paul Finlow-Bates.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (where genuine springtime abounds this Purim weekend)



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 20 20:28:18 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:28:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.20 (02) [EN-NL]
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From: pbarrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (03) [EN]

John McWhorter tackles this very well in two popular books: The Power of
Babel and Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue and more academically in Language
Interrupted.



This issue has two parts for me: the notion that complexity equals complex
morphology only when word formation, syntax, etc. can complicate things
immensely e.g. Chinese.......

and that people who live in small groups with constant face-to-face contact
tend to complexify the language, adding all sorts of bells and whistles and
losing few b/c they talk to each other, whereas once new folks move into the
neighborhood, they don't have time for all that.

Pat Barrett  pbarrett at cox.net
http://ideas.lang-learn.us/barrett.php



trying to conform to the rules of the list with a limping computer.

I believe languages simplify in or after contact with other languages
especially if one or the other is dominant and of a different
grammatical system.

Heather



-----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (02) [EN]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]



> Actually Sandy, if you read my post, that is precisely what I was saying -
older languages and simpler lifestyles are associated with more complex
languages. That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated the
language gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope.
Even our brains can only hold so much!



In which case, I agree! Yes, you make a good point that if we're going to
shovel a hundred new words a day into a language as seems to be happening
with English, then not having to figure out how to work each one into a
complex grammatical matrix might be a big help.



Sandy Fleming

http://scotstext.org/



-----------



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.19 (02) [EN]

 > From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]



> Actually Sandy, if you read my post, that is precisely what I was saying -
older languages and simpler lifestyles are associated with more complex
languages. That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated the
language gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope.
Even our brains can only hold so much!



I was wondering how far English could be easily simplified, in order to make
room for even more Internet jargon :)



An obvious way would be to get rid of any inflections. This isn't necessary
an easy simplification, but I think for the -s endings of various sorts it's
fairly unproblematic.



We could define an "easy" simplification as one that can be used without
adding anything else and without changing the syntax.



In Black English (as far as I know it from reading The Color Purple and
listening to old blues singers) there are already some simplifications of
this sort. From an old blues song:



"I'd rather be the devil, to be that woman man."



You see that we can say "that woman man" for "that woman's man" and "that
man woman" for "that man's woman": the genitive ending is redundant because
the syntax already expresses this (Welsh has also dropped the genitive
ending by the same principle).



We could also extend the "sheep"-style plural of English throughout the
language. And we could drop the -s ending on third person verbs, because
what use is it anyway?



We could drop some difficult but not really useful words, for example, the
articles "a" and "the". We could take another trick out of the Russian book
and drop the copula as well.



OK, let's try some Shakespeare!



Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow

Creep in this petty pace from day to day,

And all our yesterday have lighted fool

Way to dusty death.

Out, out! Brief candle! Life but walking shadow,

Poor player, that strut and fret him hour upon stage,

And then heard no more.

It a tale, told by idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.



Another simplification would be to get rid of all prepositions, as these are
very difficult for learners in any language. I think it's a more difficult
simplification but BSL doesn't have any, so it might be possible to get rid
of the more abstract prepositions (although prepositions expressing time and
location probably can't be transferred to spoken languages). Still it would
be more difficult for native speakers to get used to, though it would make
it a lot easier for non-natives who are learnign from scratch.



Another would be to eradicate gender pronouns (just use "it" for
"he/she/it"). It's not a big change, though it would result in past works
having to be somewhat translated because of the loss of contextual
information.



Sandy Fleming

http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.20 (01) [NL-EN]

 Het heugt mij, dat door m'n spontaan meningsuiting, tien dagen geleden
(LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.11 (05) [EN-NL]), over een terloops aanmerking van
Piet Bult over Reinhards voorstel van de hedendaagse verval van de verleden
tijd (-vorm) in het Noordnedersaksisch *zo'n heel belangrijke taalkundige
discussie-vadem* was aangestoten. Ik wil daar ook niet te alles wat zeggen,
ook al overschrijdt iets mijn horizont van weten en belang. Niettemin zal ik
(onder) op Reinhard/Rons eerste repliek wat zeggen.

Ik voor mijn deel blijf (voor nu) met het Nederlands - sorry for those who
are not able to read it, *f?r Deutsche empfehle ich zur Erleichterung:*
http://www.uitmuntend.de -, omdat ik het ook best passend vind als
"middelspraak" tussen native Hoogduits-, Nederlands- (etc.) en Engelstalige,
temeer waar het ook over het vervallende Nederduits gaat. (En als
begin-tweedejaars in het Nederlands moet ik het nog vlijtig oefenen ? ;-)

(Natuurlijk is dat geen pleidooi voor de volledige overname van een minder
krachtige Nederlandse schrijfwijs met 'oe' voor [u, u:] - maar 'u, uu' voor
[?, y:], 'eu' voor [?], 'ie' voor [i:] enz. *voor het Nederduits*. Nee, daar
houd ik meer van de *geschreven umlaute ?, ?, ?* enz. - Andere regelingen
als die voor de Nls. enkel- en duwwelschrijving van self- en medeklinkers
zijn mijns inziens maar heel nuttig ?)

Vooruitlopend nog eerst een citaat tot de historische grond van het
afsterven van de originelen (=Middel)Nederduitse dialecten, zie ook
dbnl.org/tekst/toor004gesc01_01 <http://tinyurl.com/45qtwcw>
(bron: M.C. van den Toorn, W. Pijnenburg, J.A. van Leuvensteijn en J.M. van
der Horst (red.), Geschiedenis van de Nederlandse taal. Amsterdam University
Press, Amsterdam 1997):

"In het Continentaal-Westgermaanse gebied zouden uiteindelijk vier
taalgebieden ontstaan: het Friese, het Nederduitse, het Hoogduitse en het
Nederlandse. De grootste verandering die daarin later nog zou optreden is de
*samensmelting van het Nederduitse en het Hoogduitse gebied tot een Duits
taalgebied,* niet zozeer door een verandering van de spreektaalgewoonten van
de betrokkenen, als wel *door de geleidelijke ?overdakking? van het
Nederduitse gebied door de zich ontwikkelende (Hoog)duitse standaardtaal en
de daarmee gepaard gaande teloorgang van de standaardtaalfuncties van het
Nederduits.* Ook dat wijst op het belang van de standaardtaal en de
?overdakking? bij het defini?ren van het begrip ?taalgebied?. Ten aanzien
van de hedendaagse situatie is de enige werkbare definitie van ?taalgebied?:
de verzameling van plaatsen waar ??nzelfde taal de functie van standaardtaal
vervult." En verder:

"De vooral sociologisch verklaarbare evolutie dat *het gebruik van dialect
en ?Umgangssprache? in meer en meer omstandigheden door meer en meer mensen
door het gebruik van de standaardtaal wordt vervangen, geeft uiteindelijk de
doodsteek* aan de ?geleidelijke taalovergang? in dat gebied en leidt tot de
situatie met een vrij scherpe taalgrens tussen Nederlands en Duits, die
vrijwel volledig met de politieke (rijks)grens samenvalt."

Alhoewel de al eeuwenoude overdakking van Nederduits door Hoogduits niet het
verdwenen van Nederduitse restanten in een klap betekent, zo is het toch de
oorzaak van de verlies van Middelsaksische vormen en begrippen en voor het
vervangen door Hoogduitse; m.a.w. het afsterven van het Nederduits.

Am 11.03.11 23:22, schrieb Reinhard F. Hahn:

Joachim agreed with him [i. e. Piet Bult - jo], saying something like ?a
dialect group that doesn?t keep its tenses apart is bound to disappear.?

I regard this never proven hypothesis as being based upon the superseded,
classic-humanities-based (i.e. Greek- and Latin-fed) assumptions that ...



(1) older forms are better than newer forms,
(2) more complex morphology is better than simple morphology


In der daad, waarschijnlijk is mijn klassieke taalvorming een oorzaak voor
mijn opvatting. M.a.w. mijn ouders hebben schuld eraan omdat zij me op
Karels des Groten Latijnschool (het Gymnasium Carolinum te Osnabrugge)
geschikt hadden. Maar afgezien ervan geloof ik wel, dat b.v. het Latijn meer
precies (en tegelijk beknopter) is dan Engels, Neder(duits)lands en vele
moderne talen. Het is zeker niet de enige, maar ten minst een oorzaak voor
het eeuwenlang gebruik van het Latijn als geletterden- en wetenschapstaal,
als in Europa allang gewoonlijk in de volkstalen geschreven werd.

Maar niettemin vind ik het Hoogduits, het Nederlands en het Middelnederduits
(te zijner tijd) pakweg gelijkwaardig bruikbaar. Over het Afrikaans mag ik
niet oordelen - ik wens onze ge?ngageerde LL-vrienden het best welslagen van
jouw inzet!
Maar het geldt alleen voor zowat als standaardtalen (en zij het voor en
bepaald bevolkingsgroep of bewoond region), niet voor hedendaags Nederduits
als alleen folkloristische liefhebberij van een verdwenende minderheid ?

 Furthermore, you, Joachim, yourself pointed out that the Westphalian
dialects of Low Saxon do retain the old preterit *-de* and are now
endangered. In fact, they are more endangered than are the Northern Low
Saxon dialects, most of which have discarded the preterit *-de*.



Dat zijn twee verschillende paar schoen. De grotere en langere behoud van de
Middelsaksische vormen in het Westfaals is gewis niet de oorzaak van zijn
welhaast verdwenen. Zo als - *toegegeven* - ook niet de grotere
vormenverlies voor het verdwenen van het Noordnedersaksisch of het
Nederduits algemeen. *De oorzaak is veelmeer, dat (z. ook het citaat boven)
de originele volkstaal niet eeuwig kan overleven beneden een - noodwendig te
beheersende - structureel andere standaardtaal.* En de verschil van
origineel (=Middel-) Nederduits tegen Hoog/=Standaardduits is veeruit groter
dan die tussen (NL-)Nedersaksisch (etc.) en het oudere of ook het hedendaags
Standaard-Nederlands, meen ik.

 *R. Hahn verder:*
In response to me having pointed out that deletion of morphemic markers is
common among the Lowlands languages, Joachim write above:

*Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse talen
gewoon, maar sommige verliezen zijn toe wijd gaande, ook al in het
standaard-Nederlands*

 My translation:

 *The loss of this and that may be common in the Lowlands languages, but
some losses go too far, even in standard Dutch*

Question: How much is ?too far,? and who gets to decide what?s ?too far??
Surely it?s for the speakers to decide. In other words, it?s for the
language itself to decide what losses are permissible and with what losses
it can and cannot cope.


Dat hangt ervan af, wat soort sprekers ze zijn: voor de sprekers van zowat
als standaardtalen (en zij het voor en bepaald bevolkingsgroep of bewoond
region) - ja, maar ? (de taal zelf is geen onderwerp/subject, dat kon
beslissen ;-).

 *R. Hahn:* Vital (i.e., not already highly moribund) languages have ways of
?repairing? themselves in cases of what we consider loss. Being today?s
"strongest" and predominant language, English is a prime example. It dealt
with morphemic atrophy by, among other ways, making its syntax static,
inflexible, thus compensating for the loss of morphemic object marking (by
assigning subject and object to specific syntactic slots).


Maar de beschaafde, complexere, wetenschappelijke taal word erdoor niet
makkelijker, eerder ingewikkelder ?

Als gezegd, het mijne was een spontaan meningsuiting, waar ik niet genoeg
tussen objectiviteit een persoonlijke smaak heb geschift (ontkoppeld). Het
is nu maar zo, dat ik talen als het Italiaans etc. en oudere als Oudsaksisch
en Oudhoogduits vanwege de klankrijkdom mooier vind dan afgeslotene en in de
klanken plat gegooiden Nieuw-Germaanse.

 Met echt-westf??lsken ?Goudgaun!?

joachim

--


Kreimer-de Fries

Osnabr?gge => Berlin-Pankow



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 21 17:12:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:12:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.101243.0700.>

=====================================================
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Delectabels"

Some time ago I asked for help on this list for finding a recipee for "onion
bricks". I got it once served in a restaurant downtown Evanston, IL, around
1982 and I never found it somewhere afterwards. Thanks for all comments on
the list, but apparently nobody recognized it really.



Since I have to be at an exhibition ("ProMat") in Chicago this week, I
planned this Sunday for doing some research.



In the plane my neighbour, actually from Baltimore, told me it was served in
his region in a restaurant chain "Bleu... and someting I forgot". This gave
me some hope.



Saturday evening I did some prospective walks in the blocks around the
convention center South of Chicago. Many blocks have most houses "for sale"
or "for leased" with all windows nailed with wooden cover plates. A Burger
King was still left operational in the area. I ordered a value meal with
fish, as well as onion rings. They actually replaced the fries with onion
rings, instead of giving the rings as apetizer or side dish, what I'm
used to get.



Sunday morning I toke the light rail to Evanston for seeing if could find
back the restaurant of 1982. However it was raining heavily and
intermiittently. I only could get one street far from the downtown station
"Davis", could recover and dry a bit in a Barnes & Noble at the end of that
street, returned in heavy rain to the station, with a stop at at little
restaurant "Dixie Kitchen". I had a "Southern Sampler" for lunch, a variety
of tasty stews and red beans over a layer of rice, for 10.95 (+ drink, taxes
and tip).



Since I couldn't do very much, I returned to the hotel and googled a bit. I
found:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney's

"The Onion Brick
The onion brick is created with cutting fresh onions, a mix of secret
ingredients, and flour. It can be ordered as a full brick or half."

"Hackney's is a chain of Irish family restaurants and bars located in the
Chicago suburbs and the city."
"Hackney's has received numerous favorable reviews from Chicago Tribune,
Food Network, and Chicago Sun Times."

So it still exists and I should find it in Chicago.

On the menu our brick has an other name:

http://www.hackneys.net/fileadmin/pdf/menus/regular/hackneys-printers-menu.pdf

Hackney's Original French Fried Onions,

our signature dish, named one of the top 3 in the USA

full order 6.95 half order 5.95



This evening I went to their restaurant at the corner of Polk Street and
Dearborn street in Printer Row, just South of the Loop. The window at Polk
street is nailed with a wooden sheet cover. The front at Dearborn street
urgently needs an upgrade. I hesitated but finally entered. Inside it was
very much alive at the bar as well as at the eatery tables. A completely
white skinned public of about 100 filled the space completely.



Inside the waiter confirmed the "French Fried Onions" are standing for a
"onion brick". So I ondered a full one.



What I got was a block of onions of 20 cm long by 10 x 10 cm. The call it an
appetizer, but if one manages to eat this all, it is impossible to have it
followed by any main dish ("entree" they call it in the US).



It was less black caramelized than the one of 1982, the rings were spiccled
wit some dots of browned flour (and not encapsulated in a complete crust as
the ones of Burger King). The whole block could easily been broken into
pieces, while the other one of 1982 needed to be hammered;



Anyhow it was delicious.

Regards,



Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 21 17:14:54 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:14:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.21 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.101454.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 March - Volume 02
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From: Jonny Meibohm <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.19 (01) [EN]

*Dear Yasuji-san,*



*it's very gratifying to hear from you (sorry for my late answer!), and to
hear that your self-sacrificing engineers seem to re-obtain control over the
damaged reactors. Let us all hope and pray that no more setbacks will occure
in this matter, and that the wind will continue to blow to the sea!*



*Yes, indeed, all reports in the press say that at the moment foreign
helpers will not be able to reach the devastated areas. The Japanese Red
Cross maybe the best organization being able to help.*

* *

*With great respect for all the people having been killed** **I'm wishing
you and your fellow people a lot of luck and a beneficial progress in
managing all the desasters within the next days and weeks.*



Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 21 17:17:51 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:17:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.21 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.101751.0700.>

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From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" [EN]

Beste Laaglanders.



All the discussions so far on the morphological complexity/simplicity of
languages referred to natural languages. But what about artificial languages
such as computer languages. Can we learn something of them to deepen our
understanding of the evolution/devolution in natural languages?

I will try to give a short account. Because of the brevity, some confusion
may arise. I have deliberately kept out the grouping of bits (switching
units with values 0-off or 1-on) into chuncks like 4, 8, 16, 32 and now even
64. It is enough to say that it makes use of parallel (team) units, thus
speading up processing.

A computer consists of the following essential modules:

(1) hardware: PS (power supply), mother board, CPU (central processing
unit), BIOS (basic input output system), RAM (random access memory), HD
(hard disk), screen plus video card, keyboard, mouse and printer.

All these modules have a history of evolution. For example, the first fixed
CPU ever was the ENIAC (1946). It needed a big room to fit into. Modern giga
CPUs fit in the palm of a hand and can compute billions more of instructions
per second than the ENIAC.

(2) Software: OS (operating system), programming languages, dedicated
programs (like word processor, spread sheet, graphical design, image
enhancing) and protection programs (like firewall, antivirus and recovery),

In 1966 i had my first experience of main frame computers (IBM). There were
not any programs available. The language i used was an ancient Fortran tuned
by additional assembly commands. The hardware did not have a screen or
keyboard. Communication between me and the computer was by means of a
lengthy punch tape.

Looking at all these essential modules, it is surprising that the
programming languages is merely a speck in the whole picture. Thinking of
the complex neurological system, language proficiency is merely a small
region in the cortex of te brain. But it has a paramount influence on the
motoric nerves and thus how a person willfully acts.

There are four levels of computer languages (and possibly a fifth in the
making):



(1) Machine language:

It is used to command the CPU (Central Processing Unit) to perform digital
functions (arithmetic, logic). Its input and output is a continuous string
of 0's and 1's like  1101000111010111000101011001100.....  Every kind of CPU
needed its own machine language because of a different physical
architecture.

Deciphering the machine code is like finding the structure in terms of atoms
of an extremely complex enzyme like polymerase. I had such an experience by
learning how to comprehend Spanish writings with merely a dictionary and
grammar book at hand. There was no Spanish speaking person in the large town
where i lived. It took me 5 months to translate a short letter from South
America. Computer programmers feel even worse when they have to unravel
machine code. So the next higher level was inevitable.

Here is an example for anyone knowing very little of computers. Think of
this contribution. I change all capital letters into small letters, leave
out all spaces between words, all full stops ending sentences and all line
breakings between paragraphs. The result is a very long, continuous string a
Latin letters. Try to figure out what i wanted to communicate.



(2) assembler languages:

The long string of 0's and 1's is grouped into many assemble units. They are
either data units (like simple nouns) or procedural units (like verbs). They
get identified by three letter acronyms like PUT, GET, STO, etc. They form
the vocabulary of the language. Any program is then constructed by stringing
these assembly units together according to a defined syntax.  The syntax
form the grammar of the language. Avoiding superficial and inefficient units
becomes important so that streamlining is required. It is simplification!

The identification of assemble units (?words?) does not make the 0's and 1's
in a unit obsolete, but only more manageable for the human programmer. The
complexity of the 01's string is merely shifted tacitly into the background.
But it is still very difficult to make holistic sense what the program can
and will do.

Again the next higher level was inevitable. Creating words like data (nouns)
and procedures (verbs) was not enough

Here is an example for language boffins. It is like telling something using
only simple nouns and verbs with no other words qualifying them. I used this
technique to communicate with communities in wilderness regions which had
only a rudiment knowledge of Afrikaans or English, but a complex knowledge
of their mother tongue.



(3) Syntax languages:

Whereas assembler languages make use of machine language in the background,
a syntax language makes use of an assembler language in the background. It
is almost as if a biological morphogenesis (in Goethe?s sense) is taking
place. Examples of such program languages are Cobol, C, Basic and Pascal.
Getting rid of redundancy, inefficiency and contradictions get even more
important since they increase like pests This simplify the increased
complexity somewhat..



(4) Category languages:

Examples of such languages are C++, C#, Java and probably Perl. There is not
a general agreement on the name for these languages. They are often called
objected orientated languages or task orientated languages. The general idea
is to make the units even more complex than in 3rd level languages to meet
the superior intellectual needs of programmers and improve on the speed of
programming. Much of the syntactical units and all of the assembly units and
machine units are pushed into the background. Mediocre programmers have many
difficulties with these languages since they cannot match the advanced
specifications of such a language.

Their task is very much like someone speaking a creole language trying to
render something in a complex morphological language such as Latin. It is a
herculean task. Furthermore, when not using Latin daily, one quickly lose
proficiency in using it.



(5) almost natural languages:

The idea here is to speak a natural language such that the computer can
translate it into an artificial language conforming to the machine
requirements. Some advancements have been made, but by far not enough to
make such a language functionally available. The simple reason is that a
computer cannot learn creatively by itself. Creative learning requires
spontaneity with freedom. This is what all kinds of computers (hardware and
software) lacks completely in. They do not have minds and nobody knows how
to create that in them.

It is almost like missionaries going to a country with many languages, but
not one with a written form. There hundreds of examples in South America,
Africa and Oceania. First the missionary has to learn the indigenous
language in colloquial sense. Then he has to identify explicitly the
vocabulary vocabulary and grammar of it. Eventually, after many years, he
can start transcribing the Bible with many trials and errors, correcting
where needed. It is exactly here where Afrikaans missionaries, made an
incredible contribution compared to their European counterparts in much
greater numbers. Why? Passion for the Word and knowledge of Afrikaans as the
simplest Germanic language.



Now, after some 60 years of programming languages of different levels, some
patterns have become very clear the more complex a language becomes: the
ability for all hardware and software to work seamlessly (wholeness), the
distinction between being and becoming, the context (system) for which any
particular program was created, the ability for various programs to interact
with integrity, to keep the program between manageable limits, to provide as
much as possible for diversity in tasks and to keep the system open for new
innovations in hardware and software.

It seems as if the evolution of computer languages has become extremely
complex. However, the most complex of all is the machine language at lowest
level without which the computer cannot operate. Its like the vowels and
consonants without which a spoken natural language cannot operate. The
higher the level of complexity, the more of it gets hidden in the background
for the end user. The foreground seems to be very complex for the novice
user. However, after the higher level of language which has been mastered,
the simpler and faster it becomes to create very complex programs seen from
the hidden level of machine language.

What is really difficult to understand, is how all these developments in
software (as well as hardware) integrate with each other into one whole with
a formal foreground and a tacit background. From level to level it involves
a simplification from the descriptive to the intuitive, from mechanics to
art.



I want to end with a word of caution. Natural languages make use of a living
neurological system. Computer languages make use of an inanimate digital
electronic system. Avoid mixing them or substituting insights in each
carelessly. The 250,000 years of evolution caused humans to be far more
complex that the 2,500 years development of machines.



At de lange

Pretoria.



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 21 18:42:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:42:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.114243.0700.>

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============================== =======================



From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (01) [EN]

Roger, I think what the person from Baltimore told you about was the ?onion
ring loaf? served at the Red Hot & Blue chain of Memphis-style barbecue
restaurants in the Washington, DC area. It?s really good, as is everything
else on their menu. I ought to know ? my wife and I live right around the
corner from one here in Laurel, and we try to eat there once a week!



Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, MD



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 00:11:37 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:11:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.21 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.171137.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.17 (01) [EN]

Dear Jonny,

That is a very nice idea and I hope you will succeed and if I can somehow
assist I would very much like to. We also feel very much with the people in
Japan, when I see my little son I try to imagine how worried all Japanese
parents must be that their children will be affected by the invisible
radiation, it is a very frightening szenario. I hope our world-leaders
consider seriously whether there might not be better alternatives than
nuclear power, beginning with using our resources more efficient and gently.


I also would like to take the opportunity to congratualate the people of
Tunesia and Egypt for their successsful peaceful revolutions and I hope it
will achieve freedom, equality and justice. I hope they will show the world
that Islam, freedom and tolerance can work together like any other religion
can. This might also be a new dawn of peace in the Middle East and hopefully
includes the chance of lasting peace and friendship between Israel and its
neighbours. But I am deeply worried about the situation in Lybia, utterances
of hate and revenge, to threaten violance and no mercy will not achieve
anything other but stiff resistence by those under threat and it is locking
the door for any peaceful solution. I hope for the people of Lybia that the
leader of the Tripolis government will come to senses and realize that hate
and destruction is no solution to anyone anywhere.

Groeten ut Amersfoort, NL
Helge



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 00:13:27 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:13:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.171327.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (01) [EN]

On 22/03/2011, at 3:12 AM, Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <
roger.thijs at euro-support.be> wrote:



Subject: LL-L "Delectabels"

Some time ago I asked for help on this list for finding a recipee for "onion
bricks". I got it once served in a restaurant downtown Evanston, IL, around
1982 and I never found it somewhere afterwards. Thanks for all comments on
the list, but apparently nobody recognized it really.



Hi Roger I checked on this via BIG OVEN an application containing thousands
of recipes on my iPAD TOUCH. NOGO alas.



Undaunted I have forwarded the enquiry to the FOODWINE List of which I am an
active member and also to some cluey friends in VA.

I'll send details of anything they come up with to this List. If they can't
I doubt anybody can.



Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized.
?Albert Einstein



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 00:15:23 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:15:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.03.21 (07) [NL]
Message-ID: <MON.21.MAR.2011.171523.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste Laaglandse Fonologen Morfologen,

Veel wetenschappers hebben reeds boeken vol geschreven over fonologie en
morfologie (F&M), denk aan Noam Chomsky *(Sound pattern of English)*, Joan
B. Hooper *(An introduction to natural generative phonology)*, Paul
Kiparsky, Fritz Zwicky en vele anderen. Zelfs de F&M van het Stellingwerfs
is breedvoerig beschreven in een proefschrift van dr. H. Bloemhoff: *"fonologie
en morfologie van het Stellingwerfs: een toetsing van de natuurlijke
generatieve fonologie"*. In die zin kan ik dan ook weinig toevoegen aan deze
discussie maar F&M, taal en computers hebben toevallig mijn grote interesse
(en dus heb ik een mening).



Telkens verbaas ik mij over de pathetische waarheden van veel
wetenschappers. Vaak worden die waarheden evenwel enige tijd later ontzenuwd
door andere, nieuwe waarheden. Zo kreeg ook de Standaard Generatieve
Fonologie (SGF) als tegenhanger de Natuurlijk Generatieve Fonologie (NGF).
Toch blijf ik het zien als het werpen van een dobbelsteen. Zelfs als je
honderdduizend keer de dobbelsteen werpt en de uitkomsten analyseert, dan
nog zul je de volgende worp niet met enige zekerheid kunnen voorspellen.
Bestudering van F&M geeft slechts een beeld van taalontwikkeling in de
*voltooid verleden tijd*. Ongetwijfeld zijn daar achteraf patronen in te
herkennen maar F&M is naar mijn bescheiden mening op het moment van een
verschuiving afhankelijk van ontelbare factoren en aspecten (en soms van
maar 1!).



Het - vanuit technisch oogpunt bekeken zeer eenvoudig maar desalniettemin -
beroemdste werk van bijvoorbeeld Piet Mondriaan was vast niet zo bekend
geworden als hij niet op het juiste moment op de juiste plaats was en de
juiste personen ontmoette. De laatste 250 jaar zijn nieuwe (toepassingen
van) woorden veelal ontstaan door industrialisatie en wetenschap, en komt
ook de F&M daardoor in een stroomversnelling. (Nieuwe) Woorden of toepassing
van woorden met betrekking tot computertechnologie kwamen/komen vooral van
IBM en later van Microsoft met een snufje Apple. De F&M van een kleine
hechte gemeenschap zal de afgelopen honderden jaren vast niet erg spannend
zijn geweest.



Beste At: Mijn begrip van Engels gaat niet veel verder dan vakantie-Engels
en dus begrijp ik niet alles tot in detail wat je bedoelt te zeggen met de
(vergelijkings) parallel van computertalen en natuurlijke talen. Volgens mij
zijn die twee niet te vergelijken. Zowel de eerste generatie machinetaal als
de huidige vierde generatietalen zijn in essentie nog precies het zelfde. De
hogere talen worden slechts teruggevormd (vertaald) tot machinetaal, een
reeks van nullen en enen, true of not true, schakelaar aan of uit. Deze en
andere vormen van vertalen hebben volgens mij niets vandoen met F&M.



De ontwikkeling van computertalen is meer in de orde van het uitvoerig en
letterlijk *beschrijven* van een taak of object (1ste generatie) tot het
verkort slechts *benoemen* van een taak of object (4de generatie). In de
eerste generatie moest je een fiets beschrijven als een frame met twee
achterelkaar geplaatste wielen, twee trappers, een ketting en een stuur. In
de vierde generatie is de beschrijving van een fiets als benoemd object
'fiets' weliswaar reeds bekend maar heeft nog steeds de zelfde onderliggende
onderdelen.



Fonologie kan in beginsel slechts beschreven worden tussen twee mensen met
de zelfde moedertaal. Als een derde persoon zich in het gesprek zal mengen
is het fonologisch (taal)gedrag van die derde persoon niet te voorspellen.
Deze fonologie kent naast de taalkundige ook vele factoren en aspecten die
niet direct met taal te maken hebben. Denk in dit verband ook aan het
'Oostindisch doof' zijn als ik ergens geen zin in heb (en het niet wil
verstaan) of mij juist meer in andermans dialect verbuig omdat ik hem graag
wat wil verkopen (een sfeer scheppen van onderlinge verbondenheid). Wij
kennen hier een tv-reclame: 't ken net. In het Fries betekent dit: het
kan/gaat *niet*. In het Nederlands betekent dit: het kan/gaat net *wel*.
Momenteel wordt de Nederlandse taal - vooal in de grote steden - behoorlijk
vervormd door de aanwezigheid van allochtone Nederlanders en ontstaat
spontaan een geheel eigen 'straattaal', vaak ook door morfologie van
bestaande Nederlandse woorden. En wat te denken van SMS-taal?



Wellicht is politiek (geld en macht) de grootste boosdoener om tot een
Lingua Franca te komen. Hoe lang bestaat het Esperanto al, en breekt het
toch niet echt door. Dat het Engels momenteel de Lingua Franca van de
westerse wereld is, is voornamelijk te danken aan militaire, economische,
culturele, wetenschappelijke en politieke invloed van het Britse Rijk in de
18de, 19de en 20ste eeuw (bron: wikipedia). Had het Spaans eigenlijk niet
meer voor de hand gelegen? Een huidig aspect in de F&M is ook de - vooral
uit Amerika overgewaaide - rechtsgeleerdheid (interpretatie, belezenheid en
ontwikkeling van rechtsgeleerde woorden en grammaticale zinsopbouw. Die,
vaak complexe opbouw en heel preciese keuze van woorden en klemtonen maakt
soms het verschil tussen schuldig en onschuldig.



Als eerstvolgende wereldtaal denk ik dat het Chinees een goede kans maakt.
Lijkt me trouwens ook een prachtige taal om te leren en te gebruiken.

Q: Weet iemand van de LL-List hoe de fonologie en morfologie zich in het
Chinees voltrekt?



Tot slot een klassieke morf: okay, ok? of o.k., een LS morf: stall of stal,
en ost of oost.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 16:29:00 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:29:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.03.22 (01) [NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.092900.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 01
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.03.21 (07) [NL]

Hallo Piet un all' Lowlanners,

Piet hett anfraagt:
Q: Weet iemand van de LL-List hoe de fonologie en morfologie zich in het
Chinees voltrejt?

Ick heff wat funn', k?nn je sien, dat wier ein l?tt' H?lp, kiek mal :

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klassisches_Chinesisch

V?l Gl?ck!

Hanne



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Phonology



Piet:



Weet iemand van de LL-List hoe de fonologie en morfologie zich in het
Chinees voltrejt?



Ja, maar het is een erg groot en ingewikkeld onderwerp, en het is alleen
relevant in dit forum als we ervan iets belangrijk kunnen leren met
betrekking tot de Lowlands-talen.



In een notedop: fonologische vereenvoudiging vereiste het scheppen van
samengestelde woorden.



Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 16:31:14 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:31:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.22 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.093114.0700.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members"

Beste Helge,



You wrote:

I also would like to take the opportunity to congratualate the people of
Tunesia and Egypt for their successsful peaceful revolutions and I hope it
will achieve freedom, equality and justice.



OK, the people in Tunesia got rid of Ben Ali...but now we may end up with
him ;=)



Rumor has it that the former Tunesian president intends to relocate to my
backyard so to speak. To Relegem (Asse) more precisely (where I was born).
Some of his family members already live around here and Ben Ali would look
for asylum:



Zine El Abidine Ben Ali chercher l'asile en Belgique - ???????
???????? ???<http://www.tunisia-sat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1633452>



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 16:33:49 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:33:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2011.03.22 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.093349.0700.>

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From: Tom?s ? C?rthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources"

http://whispernthunder.org/Woman_of_Two_Worlds.html

The story of a Scots Irish - Native American lady who became the USA's top
ballerina...

Tom?s ? C?rthaigh

@ Billie... shared thos wonderful link with the Lowlands
Listserve<http://lowlands-l.net/>and a couple of Ulster Scots
listserves



*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace"** *



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 16:36:08 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:36:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.22 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.093608.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 04
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2011.03.21 (06) [EN]

On 22/03/2011, at 10:13 AM, om Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>wrote:

 Undaunted I have forwarded the enquiry to the FOODWINE List of which I am
an active member and also to some cluey friends in VA.

I'll send details of anything they come up with to this List. If they can't
I doubt anybody can.

And already a harvest is coming in....

One friend responded with three websites which MAY cover what you are
after....


http://allrecipes.com//Recipe/blooming-onion-and-dipping-sauce/Detail.aspx<http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/blooming-onion-and-dipping-sauce/Detail.aspx>

http://allrecipes.com//Recipe/blooming-onion/Detail.aspx<http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/blooming-onion/Detail.aspx>

http://www.kitchenlink.com/cookbooks/2002/0452275873_2.html



Another responded

Might be very thin slices of onions, lightly breaded,
and deep fried in a rectangular fry basket. When turned out
and served it looks like a loaf or brick.
Several places in Chicago area make them.
Hackney?s, Chicago suburbs, was famous for theirs.
Usually called onion loaves or baskets if I recall..
Corkey?s BBQ in Memphis area also serves them.

*******

Another...

Onion bricks happened, the story goes, when a bunch of onion stuck together
in the rectangular deep fry basket. The restaurant called it an onion brick
and it became a hit. One onion brick will be placed in the middle of the
table for four or more people too pull off strands of onion to munch on.

*********

My VAsperts offered recipes if wanted I conformed I did and will forward
what I receive,



Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized.
?Albert Einstein



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 17:11:06 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:11:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (05) [NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.101106.0700.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Floralia"

Beste Laaglanders,
Het is voorjaar (Stell.: meitied) en dus een vraag over de lentebloem bij
uitstek. In het (Westerlauwers) Fries noemen wij de wilde narcis *(Narcissus
pseudonarcissus)* gewoonlijk een 'titelroas'. In het Stellingwerfs een
'tietelroze' (ook wel: tieteloze, tiedeloos, tiedloze, tiedeloze, tieteloze,
tudeldozen, meitiedsbloeme en paoskebloeme). De bloem ontspruit uit een
bol, hoort tot de *Amaryllidaceae* familie en is hier een typische
stinzenplaant (boerderijplant).



Q: Ik ben nieuwsgierig waar die naam 'titelroas' en var. eigenlijk vandaan
komt. Any ideas..?

Deutsch: Gelbe Narzisse

Dansk: P?skelilje

English: wild daffodil or Lent lily

Frans: narcisse jaune

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf
Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Bedankt, beste Piet.



Hier zijn mijn bijdragen:



   - Botanisch: *Narcissus pseudonarcissus*
   - Nedersaksisch (Duitsland): *Oosterklocken, Oostertrumpeet,
   Zittelr??sch(en), Zittl??sch(en), Zettl??sch(en), Zitsch*
   - Duits: falscher Narzissus, gelbe Narzisse, M?rzenbecher, Osterglocke,
   Ostergl?ckchen, Trompetennarzissus
   - Yiddish: geler nartzis (????? ???????)



De oorsprong van *tiet-*, *tietel-*, *zittel-* enz. is mij onbekend.



Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 17:42:16 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:42:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (06) [NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.104216.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 06
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From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (05) [NL]

Dag Piet,

Misschien heeft het eerste lid _tietel_ te maken met het woord _tuit_. Dus
het zou een tuitroos kunnen zijn, in de voorstelling van de bedenkers van
het woord. De corona van een narcis heeft immers een opvallende tuit of
toeter.

In Belgisch Limburg vind ik het woord _tetel_ en _teutel_, dat 'tuit' of
'penis' betekent.

Bestaan _tietel_ of _tudel_ ook als losse woorden in het Nedersaksisch?

Groeten,

Marcel.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Leuk idee, Marcel!



Middensaksisch: *tute* > t?te (> Duits *T?te*) > T??t (papierzak)



Ook wel *Tute > Tuut* (Trompet) met dezelfde oorsprong



Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 22 20:27:17 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 13:27:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (07) [NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.MAR.2011.132717.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March - Volume 07
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From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (06) [NL]



Dag Reinhard!

Ja, dat is zo'n leuk woord. In de stad Groningen hoor ik ook 'tuut' waar ik
'zak(je)' zou zeggen.

Een typisch geval van ontronding of misschien juist ronding zou hier
beschreven kunnen worden. Tietel, tudel, tetel, enz.

Wat is de oorspronkelijke vorm? Tuut/tuit/toet(er)? Of is het misschien
terug te voeren tot _tiet_ , 'borst'?

Groeten,

Marcel.



----------



From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (06) [NL]



Dag Piet, Reinhard,



Eigenlijk hoeven we de oplossing voor ?tietelroos? en ?tudelroos? niet zo
heel ver te zoeken, als we ?- el? vervangen met ?-er?.

Dan krijgen we ?toeterroos?, wat niet bestaat, maar wat wel uitdrukt wat
mijn indruk van het woord is.



Een toeter is in het Nederlands namelijk een hoornvormig instrument, waarmee
een toetend geluid wordt voortgebracht. Dus dat kan een trompet zijn, zoals
jij ook zegt bij de verschillende namen voor de narcis, Reinhard.



In het Afrikaans kent men, overigens, naast ?narsis? ook ?affodil? en
?narsing?. Interessant; met zo?n nasaal, plotseling. ?Net
interessantheidshalwe.?



Groeten,



Marcel.



----------



From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (05) [NL]


From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Floralia"

Beste Laaglanders,
Het is voorjaar (Stell.: meitied) en dus een vraag over de lentebloem bij
uitstek. In het (Westerlauwers) Fries noemen wij de wilde narcis *(Narcissus
pseudonarcissus)* gewoonlijk een 'titelroas'. In het Stellingwerfs een
'tietelroze' (ook wel: tieteloze, tiedeloos, tiedloze, tiedeloze, tieteloze,
tudeldozen, meitiedsbloeme en paoskebloeme). De bloem ontspruit uit een
bol, hoort tot de *Amaryllidaceae* familie en is hier een typische
stinzenplaant (boerderijplant).



Q: Ik ben nieuwsgierig waar die naam 'titelroas' en var. eigenlijk vandaan
komt. Any ideas..?

Deutsch: Gelbe Narzisse

Dansk: P?skelilje

English: wild daffodil or Lent lily

Frans: narcisse jaune

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf
Piet Bult



Neffens it WFT (http://gtb.inl.nl/?owner=WFT) :



 *de eerste twee vormen zijn volksetymologische vervormd tot pseudocomposita
waarvan het tweede lid de plantennaam Fries *roas* is; Nederlands *tijloos*
,Duits *Zeitlose.



It giet dus om in folksetymologyske ferfoarming; der wurdt gjin boarne
neamd, dat ik nim oan dat it giet om eigen ?ndersyk fan 'e Fryske Akademy.



Henno Brandsma



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymologie" 2011.03.22 (05) [NL]

V?rweg ein Fr?uhjohrsgr?uten ut Swerin.

Dor k?mmt uns j?st de "Osterblaum" taupass (gerade recht).

DUDEN 7: *Narzisse:* Der seit dem 16. Jh. belegte Name der als Gartenblume
beliebten, stark duftenden Zwiebelpflanze ist aus *lat. *narcissus entlehnt,
das seinerseits aus *griech. *n?rkissos ?bernommen ist. Es handelt sich
dabei wohl um ein Wanderwort *?g?ischen *Ursprungs, das dann im
*Griech. *volksetymologisch
an *griech. *n?rk? "Krampf; L?hmung, Erstarrung" angeschlossen wurde (wegen
des intensiven, bet?ubenden Duftes der Pflanze; vgl.  *Narkose).*

Un wat de DUDEN uns weiten l?tt, dat gellt also ok f?r de *g?le *Blaum:

http://www.uni-protokolle.de/Lexikon/Gelbe_Narzisse.html

So jichtensbi n?umt: wei?e Narzisse:

http://www.giftpflanzen.com/narcissus_poeticus.html

Man n?umt de g?le Blaum up Hochd??tsch: *Osterglocken.

*De plattd??tsche Nam' von 'Annemone' *Osterblaum *Lit.: R. Herrmann-Winter

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 16:53:51 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:53:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.23 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.095351.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 01
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.22 (02) [EN]



Leeve Luc,

hm, perhaps you should start demonstrating.....

But that is something I say jokingly until Gaddafi ends up in my home
village in Sleswick-Holsten...

Groeten, Helge



----------



From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2011.03.22 (02) [EN]



Luc,


From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

> Rumor has it that the former Tunesian president intends to relocate to my
> backyard so to speak. To Relegem (Asse) more precisely (where I was born).
> Some of his family members already live around here and Ben Ali would look
> for asylum:


take heart! an d action!

Your post reminds me of the old days (1983/4 it must've been)... we were
living in the Makiki neighbourhood (halfway between Honolulu proper and
Manoa where Univ of Hawai'i is located) and the Marcos's moved in just mauka
up the valley.... but that lasted just a few months as many of the residents
started picketing (some against having bandits in the neighbourhood, others
just against the heavy increase in traffic, what with all the Marcos
sychophants making their pilgrimages to see Emelda's shoes or whatever)...
end result is that they moved... still on the island, but at least to
somebody else's neighbourhood ;-)

mwm || U C > || mike || ????  || ???? || ??? || ?????? (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)

===========================================================
Senior Consultant
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
===========================================================

"I have become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 16:57:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:57:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (02) [NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.095741.0700.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymologie" 2011.03.22 (07) [NDS-NL]

Marcel schreew an Piet un Reinhard:


Een toeter is in het Nederlands namelijk een hoornvormig instrument, waarmee
een toetend geluid wordt voortgebracht. Dus dat kan een trompet zijn,
zoals jij ook zegt bij de verschillende namen voor de narcis, Reinhard.



Dat gifft sogor de "Trompeterblume" (Trumpeiterblaum ?):



http://www.google.de/images?hl=de&rlz=1G1ACAW_DEDE409&q=trompetenblume&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=U9GJTdrXDIimhAf6pYGkDg&ved=0CEwQsAQ

Hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 17:01:13 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 10:01:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.23 (03) [AF-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.100113.0700.>

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From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" [AF, NE]

Beste Laaglanders,

Piet Bult skryf:

*?Beste At: Mijn begrip van Engels gaat niet veel verder dan vakantie_Engels
en dus begrijp ik niet alles tot in detail wat je bedoelt te zeggen met de
(vergelijkings) parallel van computertalen en natuurlijke talen. Volgens mij
zijn die twee niet te vergelijken. Zowel de eerste generatie machinetaal als
de huidige vierde generatietalen zijn in essentie nog precies het zelfde. De
hogere talen worden slechts teruggevormd (vertaald) tot machinetaal, een
reeks van nullen en enen, true of not true, schakelaar aan of uit. Deze en
andere vormen van vertalen hebben volgens mij niets vandoen met F&M. *?



Beste Piet,

?Computer? Rekenaar Tale (RT) en ?Natural? Natuurlike Tale (NT) kan nooit
GELYKes wees nie. RT het nie ?n fonologie nie!

Maar hulle kan wel verGELYK word. Die rede is dat albei die doel het om te
kan kommunikeer.

Ek het beklemtoon dat my oorsig van RT te kort is om aan alles daarin reg te
laat geskied. My doel was om die spel tussen eenvoud (?simplicity?) en
meervoud (?complexity?) uit te lig.

Ek dink nie dat die eerste geslag RT en vierde geslag RT self in essensie
dieselfde is nie. Vir die REKENAAR is hulle wel dieselfde: ?n string van 0'e
en 1'e wat die Sentrale Verwerker (SV, ?Central Processing Unit?, CPU)
ingaan en uitkom.

Maar vir die MENS is hulle ooglopend verskillend. Vanaf die eerste tot
vierde geslag (en heel waarskynlik verder) word hulle al meer mensliker. Dit
is om elektroniese skakelaars al hoe meer in te span as neurologiese
blitsers.

Ongelukkig het die sielkunde in die begin van die 1900's, veral deur Freud,
?n vreeslike ding gedoen. Die brein se funksies is verdeel in die onbewuste
en die bewuste. Goethe en Polanyi het my gehelp om dit te te begryp en
oorkom. Daar is eerder vlakke van bewustheid.

Goethe het beklemtoon dat bewustheid met ervaring as die laagste begin.
Ervaring van die mens kan vergelyk word met die masjientaal van die rekenaar

Polanyi het beklemtoon dat ervaring ontluik in stomkennis (?tacit
knowledge?. Dit is die tweede vlak van bewustheid. Hy het dit weergee in sy
beroemde/berugte uitdrukking ?we know know more than we can tell?.Ervaringe
skuif in die agtergrond en stomkennis kom tevore. Dit kan vergelyk word met
die tweede vlak van RT,  ?assembly language?.

Ek beklemtoon dat stomkennis ontluik in kunstige kennis wat ook bekend is as
die vormlike (?formal?) kennis. Dit is die derde vlak van bewussyn. Daar is
baie soorte kunste (vormlikes). Dit strek van die voete (soos dans) en
vingers (soos skryf) tot die kop (soos praat en gesig trek).

Sintaktiese tale by rekenaars (3de vlak) en natuurlike tale by mense (derde
vlak) kan met mekaar vergelyk word.

Die vierde vlak van bewussyn is wysheid. Kategorie RT en wyse gesegdes
behoort tot dieselfde vlak. Min mense dink ten volle wyslik. Die wat dit kan
doen, kan met een sin baie ander mense se denke dramaties be?nvloed,
Vergelyk dit nou met die klik van ?n muis op ?n program beskikbaar.
Onmiddelik stel die rekenaar ?n woordverwerker beskikbaar in die plek van ?n
ander toepassing soos ?n teken program.



Beste Piet, niemand anders hoef soos ek te dink nie. Daar is besliste redes
waarom ek so dink. Maar niemand anders hoef daarin belang te stel nie. Maar
een ding staan soos ?n paal bo water:

?n Mens se passie bepaal wat hy/sy doen.

Rekenaars het nie passies nie. (Waarom nie??). Maar mense kan met rekenaars
hulle passies daarin beleef.

Doen honderde miljoene mense dit nie reeds nie?

Iewers in die toekoms sal ons kan skryf? biljoene mense leef hulle passies
deur middel van rekenaars uit?.

Besef laaglanders regtig hoe rekenaars mense in staat gaan stel om die
w?reld te verander in die 21ste eeu? Daar is ?n rolprent wat ek nooit sal
kan vergeet nie: ?War Games? - ?n kind wat die w?reld verander.

Die ingewikkeldheid van tale se morfologie is dus nie sommer net ?n
akademiese oefening nie.



Mooi loop.

At de Lange



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 18:34:09 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:34:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (04) NL-VL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.113409.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 04
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From: Roland Desnerck <roland.desnerck at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.22 (07) [NDS-NL]

Beste allen,



In verband met tuut en tiet...



In Oostende kennen wij:

?n e tuute: en nog wat meer; vuuf frang ?n e tuute: een weinig meer dan vijf
frank;

e tuutsje: een tuit;

etuute van e vintsje: een klein mannetje;

e tuutsje: een kanten mutsje (van de vroegere klederdracht), ook: kaketuute;

zij die de kanten mutsjes maakte: e tuutemakege;

e tiete: een stuk; e tiete van e stuute: een stukje van een boterham;

e tietelienge: een brokje, een stukje;

e tietsje, e tsjietsje: een weinig, een klein beetje;

e tietn: een kleine jongen;

in de tuit zitn: overmatig drinken, zuipen;

van een brood met vele uitsteeksels zegt men: 't zien oal tuutn ?n t?tn.

tietaluln: aarzelen;

e tutte, e tutsje: een kleine vrouw;

e t?tte, e t?tsje: een tiet;

e totsje: een kusje;

e totte: een kleine schelvis (e laber is een grote schelvis);

het schip is veraan met man en muis: 't sjhip is vergoan m? tuut ?n vl?rke.



Toetnoasteki ?n de groetn van 't zaitsje (De Noordzee)



Roland Desnerck

Rogierlaan 25 (bus 13)

8400 Oostende

West-Vlaanderen

Belgi?



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 23 21:53:25 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:53:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.23 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.145325.0700.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 05
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Lexicon



Dear Lowlanders,

Talking some for about flora ...


One of my two favorite late spring flowers is the lily of the valley
(*Convallaria
majalis*). (The other one is the peony (*Paeonia suffruticosa*)).



   - English: lily of the valley (~ lily-of-the-valley), May lily, male
   lily, May bells, lily constancy, ladder-to-heaven
   - Old Scots: *lillikyn*, *lillekyn*, *lyllikyn(n)*, *lullikin* (< Middle
   Dutch *leliekijn* ?lily? [dim. ]?)
   - German: *Maigl?ckchen* (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
   - Ripuarian: *Maijl?cksche* (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
   - Swiss Alemannic: *Maieriesl* (?May rose? [dim.])
   - Luxemburgish: *Meer?ischen* (?May rose(s)? [dim.])
   - Sater Frisian: *Pingsterbloume* (?Whitsun flower?), *Kuutitte* (?cow?s
   teat??))
   - West Frisian: maaieklokje (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
   - Dutch: *lelietje-van-dalen* (?lily-of-the-valley? [dim.]),
*meiklokje*(?May bell? [dim.])
   - Afrikaans: *lelie-der-dale* (?lily-of-the-valley?)
   - Limburgish: *meiz??dsje* (?May seed? [dim.]?)
   - Low Saxon: *Maiklocken* (?May bells?), *Leerken*, *Lierken*, *Lierk*, *
   Lill*, < *Lilg* (?lily?), < *Lilgenkonfal(g)*, *Lilgenkunfal(g)* (?lily *
   convallaria*?), *Maibloom* (?May flower?), *Maibummeln* (?May dangles?),
   *Maienlill* (?May lily?), *Marienklocken* (?Mary?s bells?),
*Ogenkruud*(?eye herb?),
   *Schillerlilg* (?Schiller?s lily??)
   - Danish: *Liljekonval* (cf. L. Sax., Nor., Swe.)
   - Norwegian: *Liljekonvall* (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Swe.)
   - Swedish: *Liljekonvalj* (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Nor.)
   - Estonian: *maikelluke* (< L. Sax. *Maiklocke(n)*)



Any additions or commends?

Regards,
Reinhard/ Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 00:26:49 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 17:26:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.172649.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 06
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============================== =======================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Dear Lowlanders,

So I should have started this under ?Etymology? ...


I am sure most of you have noticed that ?rose? and ?lily? come up in many
names of flowers that are neither roses nor lilies.



English: *lily* of the valley (~ *lily*-of-the-valley), May *lily*, male *
lil*y, May bells, *lily* constancy, ladder-to-heaven

Old Scots: *lillikyn*, *lillekyn*, *lyllikyn(n)*, *lullikin* (< Middle Dutch
*leliekijn* ?lily? [dim. ]?)

German: *Maigl?ckchen* (?May bell(s)? [dim.])

Ripuarian: *Maijl?cksche* (?May bell(s)? [dim.])

Swiss Alemannic: *Maieriesl* (?May *rose*? [dim.])

Luxemburgish: *Meer?ischen* (?May *rose(s)*? [dim.])

Sater Frisian: *Pingsterbloume* (?Whitsun flower?), *Kuutitte* (?cow?s
teat??))

West Frisian: *maaieklokje* (?May bell(s)? [dim.])

Dutch: *lelietje**-van-dalen* (?lily-of-the-valley? [dim.]),
*meiklokje*(?May bell? [dim.])

Afrikaans: *lelie**-der-dale* (?lily-of-the-valley?)

Limburgish: *meiz??dsje* (?May seed? [dim.]?)

Low Saxon: *Maiklocken* (?May bells?), *Leer**ken*, *Lier**ken*, *Lier**k*,
*Lill*, < *Lilg* (?lily?), < *Lilgen**konfal(g)*, *Lilgen**kunfal(g)* (?*
lily* *convallaria*?), *Maibloom* (?May flower?), *Maibummeln* (?May
dangles?), *Maienlill *(?May lily?), *Marienklocken* (?Mary?s bells?), *
Ogenkruud* (?eye herb?), *Schillerlilg *(?Schiller?s *lily*?)

Danish: *Lilje**konval* (cf. L. Sax., Nor., Swe.)

Norwegian: *Lilje**konvall* (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Swe.)

Swedish: *Lilje**konvalj* (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Nor.)

Estonian: *maikelluke* (< L. Sax.)



I am sure you can think of several other flower names in your respective
languages that contain the equivalents of ?rose? and ?lily.?

I would like to propose the hypothesis that ?rose? and ?lily? (and their
equivalents) used to be used as generic labels denoting something like
?beautiful flower.?

Interestingly, Biblical Hebrew *shoshanah* (*???ann?h* ???????????, also a
name from which Susanna, Susan etc. were derived) has been translated as
?rose? and ?lily;? it is not clear which one it is. Again, it may have been
a general word for ?beautiful flower.? (More recent varieties of Hebrew tend
distinguish ?rose? [*???ann?h* ???????????, or *w?r?d* ?????] and ?lily? [*
??bas?s??l?t* ??????????].)

In Persian and in the language that are strongly influenced by Persian, the
term *gul* (or *gol* ??) tends to be ambiguous in that it can mean ?rose? or
?(beautiful) flower?. The Persian-influenced Turkic languages imported it
with this ambiguity as *g?l* and some of them then derived from it the
specific name for ?rose? as ?red-*g?l*? (e.g. Azeri *q?z?lg?l*, Uyghur *qizil
g?l* ????? ???). So, in such languages a "typical" rose is red, and the
equivalents of ?yellow rose,? for instance, become ?yellow red-*g?l*.?

The point I am trying to make here is that there is a process whereby a once
specific name comes to be used as a generic label that then requires
specification by way of compounds.

I would like to also ask about the by now archaic use of ?May? (which in
this case should be spelled ?may?) and its cognates as a noun denoting a
bush, tree or sprig bearing young leaves and possibly blossoms.

In Older Scots, *mey* denotes ?hawthorn? in general. (The month is *Mey*.)


The first verse of a German folksong goes like this, playing with the
ambiguity of ?May?:



Der Mai, der Mai, der lustige Mai,

der kommt herangerauschet.

*Ich ging in den Busch und brach mir einen Mai,*

der Mai, und der war gr?ne.

La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la,

der Mai, und der war gr?ne.



My (somewhat free) translation:



May, oh May, oh jolly, jolly May
Sweeps in rustling, whooshing.
*I went into the grove and picked myself a May,
*A May, and it was green, oh!
La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la,

A May, and it was green, oh!



And as to Low Saxon *Mai* (May), there is the derivation
*Maiboom*([?ma???b???m], literally ?May tree?). It can denote any of
the following:

   - a birch tree in general (besides the choices *Bark* and *Barkenboom*)
   - a birch tree bearing young leaves and blossoms
   - a birch tree decorated for a spring festival
   - a maypole

Does any of you have comments and/or more information on these topics?

Regards,
Reinhard/ Ron
Seattle, USA



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Floralia"



Beste Ron,
Lily of the valley heet in et Stellingwarfs Woordeboek (SW) van Bloemhoff:
lelietje-der-dalen (ook wel: lelietje-van-dalen).
Een salomonszegel (polygonatum) wordt ook wel lelietje-der-dalen genoemd.
In het Westerlauwers Fries (Fries Woordenboek van W. Visser, Fryske Akademy)
is een lily of the valley een maaieklokje of een w?ldfamke.



Een meibloempien is in et SW een madeliefje (Bellis perennis).
In het Westerlauwers Fries (Fries Woordenboek van W. Visser, Fryske Akademy)
is een madeliefje een koweblom/ke, finneblom/ke, fintsjeblom/ke,
lamkeblom/ke, teeblom/ke of t?n(tsje)blom/ke.



Een peony (Paeonia suffruticosa) is in het Ned. een boompioen. In het
Stellingwerfs een boompioentien of pioenroze.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Floralia"



Beste Ron, Marcel, Henno, Hanne, Roland,
Ron: Dank voor je Zittelr??sch(en), Zittl??sch(en), Zettl??sch.
Dit brengt mij op het idee van het Duitse _zettel_. Dit is een klein los
blaadje (papier zoals bijv. een Einkaufszettel vom tankstelle).
If so, dan is zettel misschien tittel geworden (?) en zou in het oude LS met
_tietel_(roze) wel eens een _losbladige_bloem/roos kunnen worden bedoeld.
Hmmm...



Marcel: Ook dank. Zoals Ron al zei: leuke tip, die tuit en toeter voor
tietel. Andere woorden met tetel, tietel of teutel o.i.d. vind ik niet in
het Stell. Hoewel deze narcis veel/overal wel voorkomt zie ik niet een
speciale band met ons Limburg.
Als we de -el vervangen door -er dan zou een _tieter_ een klein mannetje
zijn. Een beetje dubieus allemaal.
De (d)affodil schijnt een verbastering te zijn. Wikipedia: The name Daffodil
is derived from an earlier "Affodell", a variant of Asphodel. The reason for
the introduction of the initial "d" is not known, although a probable source
is an etymological merging from the Dutch article "de," as in "De affodil."
>From at least the 16th century "Daffadown Dilly", "daffadown dilly", and
"daffydowndilly" have appeared as playful synonyms of the name.


Ron: Een tute ken ik inderdaad wel in het Gronings en Drents. In het Stell.
kennen we de tute of et tutien ook als tuit van koffiekan/ne of
theepot/trekpot. Een _tuter_ (!) is een tuutlaampe, een soort *beker* mit
een haandvat en een lange tute d'r an. Een tutebek/kien is een mond/je met
getuite lippen. Een tute is ook de wateruitloop van een (hand)pomp op het
_stap_: ie moe'n de emmer onder de tute zetten. Verder kennen we nog het
tuten als 1. kussen, zoenen 2. als twee personen hun sigaretten tegen alkaar
houden zodat de ??n met de ander wordt aangestoken 3. een bijenkoningin kan
een bepaald geluid produceren wanneer die uit de moerdop komt. Een
tuteraeger is een pijpenrager en een tutering is de bekende vogel: tureluur.
Een tutien is een klein kusje/zoentje en ook wel het ventiel van een
fietsband.



In Stell. noemen wij een papieren zak gewoonlijk een poede/gien of een
kladde/gien.



Henno: Ek tige tank foar dyn info. Ik sil skielk de FA wolris freegje hoe't
it krekt sit.



Hanne: Ouck danke fur diin biidreeg. Sol man vun dat bet?ubenden Duftes der
Pflanze ouck LSD oder so etwas moaken en dan roucken kunnen, wat meenst du?
Ouck danke fur de trompetbloem. Die het idd net zo'n trompet als de narcis.



Roland: Ook dank voor al je mooie woorden rond tiet en tuut. Helaas zie ik
ook hier niet direct een verband met onze tietelroas/-ze.



Allemaole nog es daank en...
Een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 00:45:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 17:45:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.03.23 (07) [NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.174538.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 07
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Fonologie"



Beste Hannelore, Ron, At,
Hanne: Daank veur je weblink naor Klassisches Chinesisch.

Hanne, Ron, e.a.: Mien vraoge over fonologie en morfologie in et Chinees was
niet zo hiel slim serieus bedoeld omreden ik vanzels ok wel begriep dat zoks
niet in twie riegels uut te stokken is. En inderdaod het et niet al te vule
te maeken mit et LS. Sorry..!



At: Dank voor jouw bijdrage in voor mij (meer) begrijpelijke taal over de
vergelijking van generaties computertalen en fonologie. Ik moet hier iets
langer over nadenken (een peer ure mit in de hangmatte) maar kom er nog op
terug.



Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Phonology



Keen Probleem, beste Piet. Dien Frag? was nich so belangloos as se mi
toeerst leet. Mag sien, dat ?t Chineessche wahrhaftig ?n Fall vun ?from
simple morphology to more complex morphology? is. Nu segg *ik*: ?Sorry.?



Kein probleim, beste Piet. Dien vraog? was nich zou belaanglous as zei mie
toueirst leit (*leek*). Mag zien dat ?t Chineissche waorhaftig ?n vaal von
?from simple morphology to more complex morphology? is. Noe zeg *ik*?Sorry.?



In een notedop: fonologische vereenvoudiging vereiste het scheppen van
samengestelde woorden.



Gr?tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 01:14:42 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:14:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (08) [EN-NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.23.MAR.2011.181442.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March - Volume 08
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Floralia"



Beste Ron, Marcel, Henno, Hanne, Roland,
Ron: Dank voor je Zittelr??sch(en), Zittl??sch(en), Zettl??sch.
Dit brengt mij op het idee van het Duitse _zettel_. Dit is een klein los
blaadje (papier zoals bijv. een Einkaufszettel vom tankstelle).
If so, dan is zettel misschien tittel geworden (?) en zou in het oude LS met
_tietel_(roze) wel eens een _losbladige_bloem/roos kunnen worden bedoeld.
Hmmm...



Marcel: Ook dank. Zoals Ron al zei: leuke tip, die tuit en toeter voor
tietel. Andere woorden met tetel, tietel of teutel o.i.d. vind ik niet in
het Stell. Hoewel deze narcis veel/overal wel voorkomt zie ik niet een
speciale band met ons Limburg.
Als we de -el vervangen door -er dan zou een _tieter_ een klein mannetje
zijn. Een beetje dubieus allemaal.
De (d)affodil schijnt een verbastering te zijn. Wikipedia: The name Daffodil
is derived from an earlier "Affodell", a variant of Asphodel. The reason for
the introduction of the initial "d" is not known, although a probable source
is an etymological merging from the Dutch article "de," as in "De affodil."
>From at least the 16th century "Daffadown Dilly", "daffadown dilly", and
"daffydowndilly" have appeared as playful synonyms of the name.


Ron: Een tute ken ik inderdaad wel in het Gronings en Drents. In het Stell.
kennen we de tute of et tutien ook als tuit van koffiekan/ne of
theepot/trekpot. Een _tuter_ (!) is een tuutlaampe, een soort *beker* mit
een haandvat en een lange tute d'r an. Een tutebek/kien is een mond/je met
getuite lippen. Een tute is ook de wateruitloop van een (hand)pomp op het
_stap_: ie moe'n de emmer onder de tute zetten. Verder kennen we nog het
tuten als 1. kussen, zoenen 2. als twee personen hun sigaretten tegen alkaar
houden zodat de ??n met de ander wordt aangestoken 3. een bijenkoningin kan
een bepaald geluid produceren wanneer die uit de moerdop komt. Een
tuteraeger is een pijpenrager en een tutering is de bekende vogel: tureluur.
Een tutien is een klein kusje/zoentje en ook wel het ventiel van een
fietsband.



In Stell. noemen wij een papieren zak gewoonlijk een poede/gien of een
kladde/gien.



Henno: Ek tige tank foar dyn info. Ik sil skielk de FA wolris freegje hoe't
it krekt sit.



Hanne: Ouck danke fur diin biidreeg. Sol man vun dat bet?ubenden Duftes der
Pflanze ouck LSD oder so etwas moaken en dan roucken kunnen, wat meenst du?
Ouck danke fur de trompetbloem. Die het idd net zo'n trompet als de narcis.



Roland: Ook dank voor al je mooie woorden rond tiet en tuut. Helaas zie ik
ook hier niet direct een verband met onze tietelroas/-ze.

Allemaole nog es daank en...
Een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Dear Piet,



I do not think that German *Zettel* has anything to do with *
Zittelr??sch(en)*, *Zittl??sch(en)*, *Zettl??sch*, *Zitsch*, etc.
('daffodil'). I believe that these are older High or Central German cognates
of your *ti(e)tloos*, etc. that were imported into Low Saxon of Germany.

(When I say ?Central German? I am referring to a ?buffer zone? of dialects
between Low Saxon and (?High?) German.)

German *Zettel* (?chit/slip of paper?, ?note?, cognate of Yiddish *tsetl*????)
is derived from Italian *cedola*, which was derived from Medieval Latin *
cedula*, which goes back to Classical Latin *schedula*, a diminutive form of
*scheda* ?chit/slip of paper?. (Please note the derived English word
?schedule? in this connection.)



Middle (?High?) German had the derived verb *zedelen* ?to document an
agreement in writing?. This verb did not make it into Modern German; it
would be *?zetteln? if it had survived.



Isn?t etymology fun? Thanks for your valuable input!



Kind regards!
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 18:59:11 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:59:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.24.MAR.2011.115911.0700.>

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 March - Volume 01
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]



Dear Reinhard,



here is another -- seemingly very old -- german Volkslied for you to
translate -- it contains "Mai" as a month *and* as a sprig resp. "Maibaum",
"Maizweig":



Der Winter ist vergangen, ich seh des Maien Schein,
ich seh die Bl?mlein prangen, des sich mein Herz erfreut.
So fern in jenem Tale, da ist gar lustig sein,
da singt Frau Nachtigalle und manch Waldv?gelein.



Ich geh den Maien hauen wohl durch das gr?ne Gras
und schenk ihn meinem Buhlen, so mir die Liebste was.
Und ruf ich, wird sie kommen, an ihrem Fenster stahn,
empfangen Baum und Blumen, die sind gar wohlgetan.



Ade, mein Allerliebste, ade, sch?ns Bl?mlein fein,
ade, sch?n Rosenblume, es mu? geschieden sein!
Bis da? ich wiederkomme, bleibst du die Liebste mein,
das Herz in meinem Leibe geh?rt ja allzeit dein!



And it has a rose as well, especially for you! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



I would like to also ask about the by now archaic use of ?May? (which in
this case should be spelled ?may?) and its cognates as a noun denoting a
bush, tree or sprig bearing young leaves and possibly blossoms.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



Thanks a lot, dear Marlou, for the song and for the rose!



Now hold on to your hat! The song is based on a Dutch song from the 15th
century or earlier!



Die winter is vergangen,
ik zie des meien schijn;
ik zie die bloemkens hangen,
des is mijn hart verblijd.
Zo ver aan genen dale,
daar is 't genoeglijk zijn;
daar zinget die nachtegale,
alzo menig woudvogelkijn.

Ik wil den mei gaan houwen
al in dat groene gras,
en schenken mijn boel die trouwe,
die mij de liefste was;
en bidden dat zij wil komen
al voor haar vensterken staan
end' ontvangen de mei met bloemen:
hij is zo wel gedaan.

Ende doe die zuiverlijke,
zijn reden hadde gehoord,
doe stond zij treurendlijke;
met des sprak zij een woord:
Ik heb den mei ontvangen
met groter waardigheid.
Hij kust ze aan de wangen
was dat niet eerbaarheid?

Hij nam ze zonder treuren
al in zijn armkens blank.
Die wachter op der muren
die hief op een lied ende sanc:
En is daar iemand inne,
die mag wel huiswaarts gaan:
ik zie den dag opdringen
al door die wolken klaar.

Och wachter op der muren,
hoe kwelstu mij zo hard!
Ik lig in zwaren treuren;
mijn herte dat lijdet smart.
Dat doet die alreliefste,
dat ik van haar scheiden moet
dat klaag ik God den Here,
dat ik ze laten moet.

Adieu, mijn alreliefste,
adieu, schoon bloemken fijn,
adieu, schoon rozebloeme,
daar moet gescheiden zijn.
Hent dat ik wederkome
die liefste zoudt gij zijn:
dat herte in mijnen lijve
dat hoort ja altijd dijn.



Listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFriSzut90c



Earlier version:



Der wynter ys verganghen,
Ons compt des meyens tyet,
Ic sie die loeffer hanghen
Die bloemkens spruten daer wyet.
Soe veer yn ghenen dalen
Daer ys soe genuchelick syen
Daer synck frou nachtegale
En soe mennych fogelkyn.



Ick wyl die mey gaen halen
Al yn dat groene walt
Und sceynken myn buul myn trowen
Die myn hart bevanghen haet
En vraghen of hie wold commen
All voor myn kleyn feensterlyng staeu
En ontfanghen die mey myt bloemmen
Sye ys (so) scoen gedaen.



En doe die suverlixste
Die klacht oeck haet gehoert,
Doe stont sye trurenlycke;
Myt deen sprack sye een woert:
?Wye wyllen die mey ontfanghen
?Myt groter eerwirdicheyt.?
Hie druckten sye aen oer wanghen;
Was dat nyet eerberheyt?



Hi naem sye sonder truren
Al yn syen armkens blanck,
Die wechter upter muren,
Die hief up ende lude sanck:
En ys daer ymant ynnen,
Die mach wael toe huyswart gaen,
Ick sie die dach up klymmen
Al doer die wolken klaer.



Och wechter upter muren!
Waer om en swychtu nyet?
Ick lych yn swaren truren
Yn soe mennych swaer verdriet,
Ghy queylt my alsoe sure,
Ghy kreynck my myennen muut,
Des klach ick got den heren,
Dat ick van oer sceyden muut.



Adde myn rose bloemme,
Adde myn suute lieff!
Wees dat ick weder comme
Und blyeff altyet bye die,
Soe muut u got bewaren,
Unde sparen u lanck gesont,
Wees dat ick weder commen
Unde cussen voer uwen roder mont.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 24 19:00:52 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 12:00:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.24.MAR.2011.120052.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 24 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]



Dear Reinhard,



here is another -- seemingly very old -- german Volkslied for you to
translate -- it contains "Mai" as a month *and* as a sprig resp. "Maibaum",
"Maizweig":



Der Winter ist vergangen, ich seh des Maien Schein,
ich seh die Bl?mlein prangen, des sich mein Herz erfreut.
So fern in jenem Tale, da ist gar lustig sein,
da singt Frau Nachtigalle und manch Waldv?gelein.



Ich geh den Maien hauen wohl durch das gr?ne Gras
und schenk ihn meinem Buhlen, so mir die Liebste was.
Und ruf ich, wird sie kommen, an ihrem Fenster stahn,
empfangen Baum und Blumen, die sind gar wohlgetan.



Ade, mein Allerliebste, ade, sch?ns Bl?mlein fein,
ade, sch?n Rosenblume, es mu? geschieden sein!
Bis da? ich wiederkomme, bleibst du die Liebste mein,
das Herz in meinem Leibe geh?rt ja allzeit dein!



And it has a rose as well, especially for you! :-)



Hartlich



Marlou



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



I would like to also ask about the by now archaic use of ?May? (which in
this case should be spelled ?may?) and its cognates as a noun denoting a
bush, tree or sprig bearing young leaves and possibly blossoms.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



Thanks a lot, dear Marlou, for the song and for the rose!



Now hold on to your hat! The song is based on a Dutch song from the 15th
century or earlier!



Die winter is vergangen,
ik zie des meien schijn;
ik zie die bloemkens hangen,
des is mijn hart verblijd.
Zo ver aan genen dale,
daar is 't genoeglijk zijn;
daar zinget die nachtegale,
alzo menig woudvogelkijn.

Ik wil den mei gaan houwen
al in dat groene gras,
en schenken mijn boel die trouwe,
die mij de liefste was;
en bidden dat zij wil komen
al voor haar vensterken staan
end' ontvangen de mei met bloemen:
hij is zo wel gedaan.

Ende doe die zuiverlijke,
zijn reden hadde gehoord,
doe stond zij treurendlijke;
met des sprak zij een woord:
Ik heb den mei ontvangen
met groter waardigheid.
Hij kust ze aan de wangen
was dat niet eerbaarheid?

Hij nam ze zonder treuren
al in zijn armkens blank.
Die wachter op der muren
die hief op een lied ende sanc:
En is daar iemand inne,
die mag wel huiswaarts gaan:
ik zie den dag opdringen
al door die wolken klaar.

Och wachter op der muren,
hoe kwelstu mij zo hard!
Ik lig in zwaren treuren;
mijn herte dat lijdet smart.
Dat doet die alreliefste,
dat ik van haar scheiden moet
dat klaag ik God den Here,
dat ik ze laten moet.

Adieu, mijn alreliefste,
adieu, schoon bloemken fijn,
adieu, schoon rozebloeme,
daar moet gescheiden zijn.
Hent dat ik wederkome
die liefste zoudt gij zijn:
dat herte in mijnen lijve
dat hoort ja altijd dijn.



Listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFriSzut90c



Earlier version:



Der wynter ys verganghen,
Ons compt des meyens tyet,
Ic sie die loeffer hanghen
Die bloemkens spruten daer wyet.
Soe veer yn ghenen dalen
Daer ys soe genuchelick syen
Daer synck frou nachtegale
En soe mennych fogelkyn.



Ick wyl die mey gaen halen
Al yn dat groene walt
Und sceynken myn buul myn trowen
Die myn hart bevanghen haet
En vraghen of hie wold commen
All voor myn kleyn feensterlyng staeu
En ontfanghen die mey myt bloemmen
Sye ys (so) scoen gedaen.



En doe die suverlixste
Die klacht oeck haet gehoert,
Doe stont sye trurenlycke;
Myt deen sprack sye een woert:
?Wye wyllen die mey ontfanghen
?Myt groter eerwirdicheyt.?
Hie druckten sye aen oer wanghen;
Was dat nyet eerberheyt?



Hi naem sye sonder truren
Al yn syen armkens blanck,
Die wechter upter muren,
Die hief up ende lude sanck:
En ys daer ymant ynnen,
Die mach wael toe huyswart gaen,
Ick sie die dach up klymmen
Al doer die wolken klaer.



Och wechter upter muren!
Waer om en swychtu nyet?
Ick lych yn swaren truren
Yn soe mennych swaer verdriet,
Ghy queylt my alsoe sure,
Ghy kreynck my myennen muut,
Des klach ick got den heren,
Dat ick van oer sceyden muut.



Adde myn rose bloemme,
Adde myn suute lieff!
Wees dat ick weder comme
Und blyeff altyet bye die,
Soe muut u got bewaren,
Unde sparen u lanck gesont,
Wees dat ick weder commen
Unde cussen voer uwen roder mont.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 25 04:28:56 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:28:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.24 (02) [EN-NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.24.MAR.2011.212856.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 24 March - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]



Wow, this is really a very old song! Thank you for the early versions, dear
Reinhard. Des freut sich mein Herz :-) I would love to know if the melodies
we know are the same as the older versions -- to know with what tunes these
words were expressed in so far away times. Music taste -- and probably
musical abilities --seem to have changed a lot since the 15th century; I
often think so when singing (or, often in vain, trying to sing) very old
church hymns, set in measures like 22:23, with melodies that seem quite
unintelligible to me. How could anyone ever remember these melodies or find
them expressive or even beautiful? These songs and hymns were sung by
everyday people after all. Even the few hymns Luther composed... well, he
was not a composer in the first line :-) On the other side, rhythm feeling
seems to have been much more sophisticated than in today's Germany. -- Music
is quite another sort of language, but maybe here we see another example of
simplification?



Hartlich



Marlou



Now hold on to your hat! The song is based on a Dutch song from the 15th
century or earlier!



----------



From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]



Marlou, Reinhard,



Ik heb ok nog wat op youtube evunden



Arend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX5-ibnoO00&feature=related



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



I posted:



Der wynter ys verganghen,
Ons compt des meyens tyet,
Ic sie die loeffer hanghen
Die bloemkens spruten daer wyet.
Soe veer yn ghenen dalen
Daer ys soe genuchelick syen
Daer synck frou nachtegale
En soe mennych fogelkyn.



Ick wyl die mey gaen halen
Al yn dat groene walt
Und sceynken myn buul myn trowen
Die myn hart bevanghen haet
En vraghen of hie wold commen
All voor myn kleyn feensterlyng staeu
En ontfanghen die mey myt bloemmen
Sye ys (so) scoen gedaen.



En doe die suverlixste
Die klacht oeck haet gehoert,
Doe stont sye trurenlycke;
Myt deen sprack sye een woert:
?Wye wyllen die mey ontfanghen
?Myt groter eerwirdicheyt.?
Hie druckten sye aen oer wanghen;
Was dat nyet eerberheyt?



Hi naem sye sonder truren
Al yn syen armkens blanck,
Die wechter upter muren,
Die hief up ende lude sanck:
En ys daer ymant ynnen,
Die mach wael toe huyswart gaen,
Ick sie die dach up klymmen
Al doer die wolken klaer.



Och wechter upter muren!
Waer om en swychtu nyet?
Ick lych yn swaren truren
Yn soe mennych swaer verdriet,
Ghy queylt my alsoe sure,
Ghy kreynck my myennen muut,
Des klach ick got den heren,
Dat ick van oer sceyden muut.



Adde myn rose bloemme,
Adde myn suute lieff!
Wees dat ick weder comme
Und blyeff altyet bye die,
Soe muut u got bewaren,
Unde sparen u lanck gesont,
Wees dat ick weder commen
Unde cussen voer uwen roder mont.



The song must have been very popular at some time. The one above is said to
be from Hanau (which is now on the German side of the border ... unless I am
sorely mistaken). Here?s another old version in a different old language
variety, this one from Zutphen, which is in the Low Saxon area of the
Netherlands:



De winter is verganghen,
Ic sie des meien schyn,
Ic sie die bloemkens hanghen,
Des is myn hert verblyt.

So ver aen ghenen dale
Daer ist ghenoechlic syn,
Daer singhet die nachtegale,
Also menich woutvoghelkyn



Ic wil den mei gaen houwen
Al in dat groene gras
Ende schenken myn boel die trouwe,
Die mi die lieveste was,
Ende bidden, die si wil comen
Al voor haer vensterken staen
Ende ontfanghen den mei met bloemmen,
Hi is so wel ghedaen.



Ende doe die suiverlike
Syn reden hadde ghehoort,
Doe stont si trurentlike;
Met des sprac si een woort:
?Ic heb den mei ontfanghen
?Met groter eerwaerdicheyt.?
Hi cust si aen haer wanghen;
Was dat niet eerbaerheyt?



Hi nam si sonder truren
Al in syn armkens blanc.
Die wachter op der muren
Die hief op een liet ende sanc:
?En is daer ieman inne,
?Die mach wel thuiswaert gaen,
?Ic sie den dach opdringhen
Al door die wolken claer.?



Och wachter op der muren!
Hoe quelstu mi so hart?
Ic ligghe in swaren truren,
Myn herte dat lidet smert.
Dat doet die alre liefste,
Dat ic van haer scheiden moet,
Dat claghe ic god den here,
Dat ic si laten moet.



Adieu myn alreliefste,
Adien schoon bloemken fijn,
Adieu schoon rosebloeme,
Daer moet ghescheyden zyn;
Hent dat ic wedercome,
Die liefste sult ghi syn,
Dat herte in minen live
Dat hoort jo altyt dyn.



This version seems to be in Middle Dutch (Low Frankish) to me rather than in
Middle Saxon (e.g. *wout* instead of *wold*).



Also, this version has one verse less compared with the Hanau version.



Discovered in Ghent Library:


Het winterken is ons verganghen

En het somerken komter ons aen,

Men sieter die looverkens hanghen

En die bloemkens staen ontaen,

Soo verre aen eender dale,

Daer ist ghenoeghlyck om syn,

Daer singht den fieren Nachtegale

En soo menigh wilt voghelkyn.

....



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, U



Source: http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/kalf003lied01_01/kalf003lied01_01_0004.php



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject: LL-L "Songs"



A slightly different addition...

De Winter is Vergangen / La Bien Aim?e / The Winter is Past, first printed
in Antwerp in the 16th century, refer to the centuries-old tradition of
meiplanting: on the eve of the first day of May an amorous young man would
plant a blooming branch by the window of the young lady he fancied. In this
song the suitor gets lucky! But all too soon, the accursed guard announces
from his tower that dawn is breaking, and the lovers regretfully part.



Mei- en dageraadslied over twee geliefden die door de wachter worden
gewaarschuwd dat ze moeten scheiden omdat de dag aanbreekt.
Oudste optekening op een los blad uit de 15e eeuw met middelnederlandse
tekst, dat in Hanau (Duitsland) gevonden werd.
In Antwerps Liedboek 74, "Het viel eens hemels douwe", heeft interferentie
opgetreden tussen onderhavig lied en het lied "Het viel een coelen douwe".

1. Die winter is ons verghanghen
en ick sie des Meys virtuyt
Ick sie die loueren hanghen
En die bloemkens die spruyten daer uit
Also veer aen ghene groenen dale
Daer is het so ghenoechlijke zijn
Daer singt die fiere Nachtegale
Met so menich cleyn wilt voghelkijn.

2. Wy willen die Mey gaen houwen
Hier buyten int groene wout
En schencke mijn soete lief mijn trouwe
Die mijn herteken bevangen hout
En vragen of zy wilden comen
Voor haer cleyn veynster staen
Ontfangen de Mey met haren boemen
Want zy is so schoon ghedaen.

3. Legdy nu en slaept schoon lief
En waerom en waeckt ghy niet
Ick stae hier voor u duerken
En ick lijder also swaren verdriet
En ick stae hier voor u duerken
En ick lijder also groten pijn
Staet op mijn alder liefste
En spreeckt een woort teghens mijn.

4. Doe die suyuerlijcke
Dat claghen aen hadde ghehoort
Sy stont op haestelijcke
En met een sprack zy een woort
En hy namse al in zijn armen
Met groter eerwaerdicheyt
Hy custense voor haer modelijn was root
En zy namt oock al in danckbaerheyt.

5. O doot zeyde vermaledyde doot
Waer toe zijt ghy ghemaeckt
Ghy staet hier voor mijn ooghen
Die also bitterlijcke smaeckt
Ghy staet hier voor mijn ooghen
Recht teghen neuens mijn
Ick sie den lichten dach op dringhen
En mijn soete Liefs claer aenschijn.

6. En hy namse al in zijn armen
Met groter eerwaerdicheyt
Hy custense voor haer mondelijn was root
En zy namt oock al in danckbaerheyt
Die wachter op de muere
Hoe luyde was dat hy sang
En isser yemant inne
Die mach thuyswaert ghaen
Ick sie den lichten dach op dringhen
Alzo veer int oosten op gaen.



Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,

Piet Bult



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 25 04:39:48 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:39:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.24 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.24.MAR.2011.213948.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 24 March - Volume 03
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============================== =======================



From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]



> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Etymology



> I would like to propose the hypothesis that ?rose? and ?lily? (and their
equivalents) used to be used as generic labels denoting something like
?beautiful flower.?

And then there's the Chilean Rose to remind us that beauty is in the eye of
the beholder.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology



Thanks, Sandy ... I think.



And then there?s what in some relevant languages is also called the
equivalent of ?rose?: *Herpes zoster*, a.k.a. shingles. I?m one of the
?freaks? that has had it three times so far ... (and in my case, unusually,
the pain sets in before ?the rose blooms? ...).



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 25 18:41:42 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:41:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.25 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.MAR.2011.114142.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 25 March - Volume 013
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.24 (03) [EN]



From: Sandy Fleming



"And then there's the Chilean Rose to remind us that beauty is in the eye of
the beholder."



Had to Google this. Well, it's certainly beautiful in the eye of this
beholder!



Paul



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]

Bi dit Thema geiht de Post af...

Leiw' Lowlanners,

v?rweg wat oewer den'n Maimaand.

*Mai:* Der Monatsname (*mhd. *meie, *ahd.* meio) beruht mit *roman.
*Entsprechungen
wie *it.  *maggio und *frz.
*mai auf *lat. *(mensis) Maius "*(Monat) Mai". *Der Monat hei?t vermutlich
nach einem alitalischen Gott Maius, der als Besch?tzer des Wahstums verehrt
wurde. Dazu stellen sich *Maie  *veraltend  f?r "Maibaum; Birkengr?n"
und *maien
*dichterisch f?r "Mai werden". - Zus.: *Maigl?ckchen *(18./19.Jh.; weil es
im Mai bl?ht); *Maaik?fer *(17. Jh.; weil er im Mai schw?rmt).
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Liljenkunfaljen* Pl. Maigl?kchen, benannt nach *Lilium convallium*  des
Hohenliedes und der lat. Fachsprache des Mittelalters; eine junge
Singularform -*falj  *ist  ?beraus selten; convallaria majalis (Heinrich
Marzell W?rterbuch Pflanzennnamen 1937).
Dat Wuurt Liljenkunfaljen hett v?le Kl?ren (Farben):
Lilgenkunfalgen, -konflagen; Lilien confallien, -kunfaljen, -kumfalj;
Lilljenkonvaljen;  Lillekumfaljen, -kofalen;
Liljenkofalgen; Liljenkumfalken; Lielkenkofallen; Lilkenkunfaken;
Schaniljkunfaken; Lenekunfalten; Lirjenkonfaljen; daneben gibt es eine mit *N-
*beginnende Reihe: Niljenkumfaljen; Niljenkofaljen; Nekenkofarken.
Neuend, deren erster Wortteil sich losl?st, ohne die Bedeutung Maigl?ckchen
aufzugeben: Pl. Nilen, Nillen, Nilgen, Nilen, Nilj, Nilijen, Nid'l.
Syn.: *Einstengelkenbl?der, Maiblaum.*
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Nu kann de Mai kamen.

Hanne

* *

*----------*

* *

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (08) [EN-NDS-NL]

Hallo Piet, Ron un all' Lowlanners,

(nu heff ick wedder Tied f?r LL-L)

Piet wull weiten:
Sol  man vun dat bet?ubenden Duftes der Pflanze ouk LSD oder so etwas moaken
en dan roucken kunnen, wat meenst du?

Ick mein: nee. Villicht s?nd de Giftmischer (Chemiker) noch gor dor achter
kamen. Blot f?r ein "Wunner-Pill" (Wunderdroge), nee. Wenn't f?r ein gaude
Saak gellen s?ll, wor?m nich...

Un f?r di Ron schuw ick noch wat nah oewer *Zettel:*

*Zettel *"kleines [rechteckiges] St?ck Papier": Das Substantiv *mhd. *zedel[e]
ist aus *it. *cedola entlehnt, das ?ber *mlat. *cedula auf ?lteres schedula,
eine Verkleinungsbildung zu *lat. *scheda "Zettel", zur?ckgeht. Eine
Pr?fixbildung zu dem von Zettel abgeleiteten, im* Nhd. *untergegangenen
einfachen Verb *mhd. *zedelen "eine schriftliche Abmachung ausfertigen" ist
das Verb *verzetteln *(im 15. Jh. in der gleichen Bedeutung wie das einfache
Verb; in der Bedeutung "in Zettelkarteien" seit Mitte des 18. Jh.s).
Lit.: DUDEN 7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache

Un de Perfesser Vo?lo hett  dunntaumalen h?mpelwies'  all' all sien
Utfragen/Antwuurten   in'n  Zettelkasten sammelt un later sien Warken
rutg?ben.

Hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar 25 19:19:53 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:19:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.25 (02) (DE-EN-FY-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.MAR.2011.121953.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 25 March - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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============================== =======================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



Dear Lowlanders,



As for Hanau, Zutphen, etc., we need to bear in mind that these are the
places at which the songs where discovered in libraries. It does mean that
they are songs of those regions.



A spring song in Middle English:



Lenten ys come with love to toune,
With blosmen and with briddes roune,
    That al this blisse bryngeth;
Dayesezes in this dales,
Notes suete of nyhtegales;
    Uch foul song singeth.
The threstelcoc him threteth oo;
Away is huere wynter woo,
    When woderove springeth.
This foules singeth ferly fele,
And wlyteth on huere wynter wele,
    That al the wode ryngeth.

The rose rayleth hire rode;
The leves on the lyhte wode
    Waxen al with wille.
The mone mandeth hire bleo;
The lilie is lossom to seo,
    The fenyl and the fille.
Wowes this wilde drakes;
Miles murgeth huere makes,
    Ase strem that striketh stille.
Mody meneth, so doth mo;
Ichot Ycham on of tho,
    For love that likes ille.



Sound and translation: http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medlyric/lenten.php



And here?s a spring song in West Frisian:



*De Maitiid
*
Dan komt de maitiid, maitiid yn it l?n.
Dan laket alles, alles jin sa oan. De moaie maitiid mei syn blauwe loft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft.

As de f?gels striekes sjouwe nei it dak of holle beam.
As de fjilden har ?ntjouwe en de blomkes iepen gean.

Dan komt de maitiid, maitiid yn it l?n. Dan laket alles, alles jin sa oan.
De moaie maitiid mei syn blauwe loft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft.

As twa jonge minske-herten troch de leafde bin ferb?n.
En it houlik wurd besletten 't grutte libben wurd beg?n.

Dan komt de maitiid, maitiid yn it l?n. Dan laket alles, alles jin sa oan.
De moaie maitiid mei syn blauwe loft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft,
is foar minsken en foar blom grif it moaiste skoft.



Sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dR_jk-nNLU&feature=related



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2011.03.24 (02) (EN-NDS-NL]

Nu kann ick wedder up mien  Dagl?hner?rgel (Ziehharmonika) all' de feinen
Fr?hjohrsleeder sp?len un de Tauh?rers giern mitsingen...

Ick heff mal wat uts?cht, oewer Reinhard, wi d?rben ok dien "V?rjahrs-Haiku"
mit Melodie nich oewerseihn...


*Leise zieht durch mein Gem?t

*Leise zieht durch mein Gem?t
liebliches Gel?ute,
klinge, kleines Fr?hlingslied,
kling hinaus ins Weite!

Kling hinaus bis an das Haus,
wo die Veilchen sprie?en:
Wenn du eine Rose schaust,
sag, ich la? sie gr??en.

*Text: Heinrich Heine (1797-1856)
Melodie: Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholldy (1809-1847)
**
Wie sch?n bl?ht uns der Maien

*Wie sch?n bl?ht uns der Maien,
der Sommer f?hrt dahin.
Mir ist ein sch?n Jungfr?ulein
gefallen in mein Sinn.
Bei ihr da w?rs mir wohl.
Wenn ich nur an sie denke,
mein Herz ist freudevoll.

Bei ihr, da w?r ich gerne,
bei ihr da w?r mir wohl;
sie ist mein Morgensterne,

gf?llt mir im Herzen wohl.    (gf?llt,  kein Tippfehler)


Sie hat ein' roten Mund;
sollt ich darauf sie k?ssen,
mein Herz w?rd' mir gesund.

*Worte: nach Forster, Frische teutsche Liedlein, 1549
Weise: nach einer Courante, um 1619
*
*Wannerleed

*De Maidag kem mit Kling un Klang,
mit Mai un Moesch, mit Sing un Sang,
nu is ok Tied tau wannern!
Adsch?s, mien Dirn, un bliew mi tru,
rin in de Wieden treck ick nu,
von einen Urt tau'n annern.

Adsch?s, nu m?t ick wannern!


De Fleeder bl?uht, dat Holt is greuen,
wat is de Welt doch einmal sch?n,
un wat de Voegel singen!
De Ird dr?ggt h?t ehr S?nndagskleed,
de Vagel singt sien Hochtiedsleed,
dat sall woll Gl?ck mi bringen,
wenn so de Voegel singen!

Un heff ick ok nich Geld un Gaud,
ick sing doch mit un swenk den'n Haut.
Ick b?n so jung an Johren!
Noch sleiht dat Hart mi in de Bost,
un wenn't den'n letzten S??ling kost,
hew nie den'n Maud verluren,
ick b?n so jung an Johren!

*Worte: Rudolf Tarnow (1867-1933)
Weise: M. Rhoden

*Ja, dat gifft h?mpelwies sch?ne nd. Leeder:

*Kuckuck un Kiewitt reisen nah Nuurn...*
*Worte; Johann Hinrich Fehrs (1858-1916)*

*Maien*
De Mai, de Mai is kamen ...

*Worte: John Brinckman (1814-1870)
Weise: Friedrich Siems (1889 - ?)*


Un nich verg?ten de Kinnerleeder:
*Der Kuckuck und der Esel*
*Text: Hoffmann v. Fallersleben 1835*
*Melodie: K.F. Zelter 1810*

*Der Kuckuck ist ein kluger Mann*
*Volkslied

**Der Mai tritt ein mit Freuden*

Der Mai tritt ein mit Freuden,
es flieht der Winter kalt,
die Bl?mlein auf der Heiden,
die bl?hen mannigfalt.
Ein R?selein zarte,
von Farbe so sch?n, -
das bl?ht in meinem Garten,
vor allen ich's kr?n.

Es ist so wohlgemute,
das R?selein rot,
erfrischet Sinn und Mute,
errettet aus der Not.
Es ist mein Ehrenpreise,
dazu mein Augentrost,
und hat mit allem Flei?e
vom Tode mich erlost.

Ach, R?selein, mein Wegwart,
gar freundlich ich bitt,
mein Wanderstab zu aller Fahrt,
dazu Vergi?meinnit!
Die Not mu? vertilgen,
so lang du nur mein;

Kathrinchen von der Lilgen


mein R?slein mu? sein.

*Volkslied 16. Jahrhundert*

Un kiek in dat

PLATTD??TSCH GESANGBOOK 222


Dat hd. Leed "Die g?ldene Sonn"
heff ick dunnmals in de Pastermandenstunn'
(Konfirmandenstunde) lieren m??t.
Ick kann dat h?t noch singen...'t hett
ne h?bsche Melodie, de oewer
in dit Bauk ein anner hett.

Nu m?ten wi uns alltohopen drapen un in'n Chur singen, wo sch???n k?nn dat
sien...

Wat hett eins Robert Schumann (1810-1856) uns mit up den'n Weg' g?ben:



H?re flei?ig auf alle Volkslieder, sie sind eine Fundgrube der sch?nsten
Melodien und ?ffnen dir den Blick in den Charakter der verschiedenen
Nationen.

Ick polier all mien Stimm': mi mi mi mi mi ...

Hanne



----------



Fram: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: "Etymology" 20011.03.24 (01) [DE-EN-NL]

Leiw' Lowlanners,

ick heff upklappt dat Leederbauk:

DEUTSCHE VOLKSLIEDER
Eine Sammlung zum Singen und Musizieren mit Notenschl?ssel
Herausgegeben von Heinrich Zelton
BECHTERM?NZ VERLAG   ISBN 3-886047-189-9

*Der Winter ist vergangen

*Der Winter ist vergangen,
ich seh des Maien Schein,
ich seh die Bl?mlein prangen,
des ist mein Herz erfreut.
So fern in jenem Tale,
da ist gar lustig sein,
da singt Frau Nachtigalle
und manch Waldv?gelein.

Ich geh, den Mai zu hauen,
hin durch das gr?ne Gras,
schenk meinem Buhl die Treue,                (meinem Buhl)
die mir die Liebste was,
und bitt, da? sie mag kommen,
all vor dem Fenster stahn,
empfang'n den Mai mit Blumen,
er ist gar wohl getan.

Er nahm sie sonder Trauren
in seine Arme blank.
Der W?chter auf den Mauren
hub an ein Lied und sang:
"Ist jemand noch darinnen,
der mag bald heimw?rts gan!  (gan, steht hier so, ... gar?)
Ich seh den Tag herdringen
schon durch die Wolken klar."

Ade, mein Allerliebst,
ade, sch?n Bl?mlein fein,
ade, sch?n Rosenblume,
es mu? geschieden sein!
Bis da? ich wiederkomme,
bleibst du die Liebste mein;
das Herz in meinem Leibe
geh?rt ja allzeit dein!

*Text und Melodie: aus einem Niederl?ndischen  Lautenbuch, um 1600. Die hier
vorgelegte Fassung ist gegen Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts entstanden und fand
erst zu diesem Zeitpunkt weite Verbreitung.*

Wi kenn'n all' dat Leed: *Der Mai ist gekommen*
Text: Emanuel Geibel (1815-1884); Melodie: Justus Wilhelm Lyra (1822-1882)

*Gr?? Gott, du sch?ner Maien
*Text und Melodie: volkst?mlich, aus dem 16. Jahrhundert

*Jetzt f?ngt das sch?ne Fr?hjahr an
*Aus Franken. Text und Melodie: volkst?mlich, aus der Mitte des 19.
Jahrhunderts

*Im M?rzen der Bauer
*Aus Nordm?hren. Textneufassung von W. Brandhusen; Melodie: volkst?mlich,
aus dem 19. Jh.

*Komm, lieber Mai *
Text: Christian Adolf Overbeck (1755-1821); Melodie: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
(1756-1791)

*Winter, ade!
*Text: August Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben (1798-1874); Melodie:
volkst?mlich, nach einem fr?nkischen Volkslied.

*Nun will der Lenz uns gr??en
*Text: Neuere Fassung nach Neidhart von Reuenthal, 13. Jahrhundert; Melodie:
volkst?mlich, in Anlehnung an das alte Geusenlied Wilhelm von Nassauen, 17.
Jahrhundert.

So as ?mmer mien hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne mit de Treckfiedel



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Songs



Dank di, Hanne.



Ick heff mal wat uts?cht, oewer Reinhard, wi d?rben ok dien "V?rjahrs-Haiku"
mit Melodie nich oewerseihn...



http://lowlands-l.net/gallery/hinz_haiku_spring.php



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Mar 27 23:40:24 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 16:40:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.27 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.MAR.2011.164024.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 27 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: Jean-Luc Detilleux <jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be>

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.03.23 (05) [EN]



Hello you all,



The *convollaria majalis* is known in French as *muguet* (from musc, due to
the smell), but also as *lys/lis de mai*, though the latter is much less
common. The same idea carries on even in a romance language?



Best regards,



Jean-Luc Detilleux



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Mar 28 17:55:58 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 10:55:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.28 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.28.MAR.2011.105558.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 28 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.23 (06) [EN-FY-NL]



On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Reinhard wrote:

I am sure most of you have noticed that ?rose? and ?lily? come up in many
names of flowers that are neither roses nor lilies.


In Estonian every flower, flower generally is called "lill".


English: lily of the valley (~ lily-of-the-valley), May lily, male lily,

May bells, lily constancy,

ladder-to-heaven
Old Scots: lillikyn, lillekyn, lyllikyn(n), lullikin (< Middle Dutch

leliekijn ?lily? [dim. ]?)
German: Maigl?ckchen (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
Ripuarian: Maijl?cksche (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
Swiss Alemannic: Maieriesl (?May rose? [dim.])
Luxemburgish: Meer?ischen (?May rose(s)? [dim.])
Sater Frisian: Pingsterbloume (?Whitsun flower?), Kuutitte (?cow?s

teat??))
West Frisian: maaieklokje (?May bell(s)? [dim.])
Dutch: lelietje-van-dalen (?lily-of-the-valley? [dim.]), meiklokje (?May

bell? [dim.])
Afrikaans: lelie-der-dale (?lily-of-the-valley?)
Limburgish: meiz??dsje (?May seed? [dim.]?)
Low Saxon: Maiklocken (?May bells?), Leerken, Lierken, Lierk, Lill, <

Lilg (?lily?), < Lilgenkonfal(g),

Lilgenkunfal(g) (?lily convallaria?), Maibloom (?May flower?),

Maibummeln (?May dangles?), Maienlill (?May l$

Marienklocken (?Mary?s bells?), Ogenkruud (?eye herb?), Schillerlilg

(?Schiller?s lily?)
Danish: Liljekonval (cf. L. Sax., Nor., Swe.)
Norwegian: Liljekonvall (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Swe.)
Swedish: Liljekonvalj (cf. L. Sax., Dan., Nor.)
Estonian: maikelluke (< L. Sax.)


Mari Sarv
Tartu
Estonia



----------



From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>

Subject:  LL-L "Floralia"



Tietelroze...
Van een wetenschappelijk onderzoeker naar de huidige stand van de
'tietelroze' (www.martypoorter.nl/paginas/stinzen.html) kreeg ik deze
verklaring over de naam 'tietelraos'. De Nederlandse naam was vroeger
'tijdloze' waarmee aangeduid werd dat deze bloem buiten de normale bloeitijd
valt, hetzij eerder, hetzij later. In het Nederlands is de 'd' door de jaren
vervallen en werd het 'tijloze'. Door verbastering is vervolgens de naam
'tietelroas/-roze' ontstaan. Daarom noemen wij hier in Frysl?n/Stellingwerf
bijv. de herfstkrokus (autumn crocus) ook wel tietelroos.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult





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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 29 18:22:44 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:22:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.29 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.MAR.2011.112244.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 29 March - Volume 01
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.28 (01) [EN-NL]



In Iran there is a small wild red tulip called a *laleh*; it is a quite a
popular girl's name too. I wonder if this has the same IE root as "lily"?



Paul

Derby

England.



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology


Thanks, Paul! This is really interesting since I was just following the same
lead.

The official line is that ?lily? and its cognates come from L. *lilia*, pl.
of *lilium*, and is a cognate of Greek *le?rion* (?????o?) ?lily?.

[By the way, in Persian ?lily? is *???an* (????), which spread as a loanword
through Central and Southern Asia, and the ancestor of which may well be the
origin of the Hebrew word *???ann?h* (??????????) ?lily?, ?rose?, which I
recently mentioned.]

And, indeed, one of the primitive tulips has the Persian name *l?leh* (????),
a word that found its way into the Persian-influenced and eventually
Turkic-influenced languages of a vast region, e.g. Urdu *gul l?leh* (?? ????,
?*laleh* flower?, versus Hindi *t?y?lip* ??????? < English ?tulip?), Uzbek *
lola*, Uyghur *lal?* (????), Turkish *lale*, Azeri *da?lal?si* (?mountain *
lale*?), Bulgarian *lale* (????), Macedonian *lale* (????), Serbian
*lala*(????, versus Croatian
*tulipan*).

I?m wondering if there has been some etymological ?contamination? between
this and ?lily.?.

The ?tulip? group of names comes from older *tulipan* which is said to go
back, via Ottoman Turkish *t?lbend*, to Persian *dulband* ?turban?, because
the closed blossom was likened to the shape of a turban by Westerners.
However, Ottoman Turkish *t?lbend* also means ?gauze (band)?, which would be
consistent with Persian **t?rband* (*??????, ?gauze band?).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 30 18:39:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:39:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.30 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.30.MAR.2011.113941.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 30 March - Volume 01
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.29 (01) [EN]



Hi Ron,



A possible area for more research! One problem with plant and animal names
is that they readily transfer to different species when people migrate - the
American blackbird and robin are quite different birds from the European
ones they are named after. There are countless species of fish around the
world called "cod", many of them quite unrelated (other than being fish of
course).



So a name like "lily" might well go back to, and beyond, Proto
Indo-European, but may have applied to a totally different flower.



Paul



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology


Thanks, Paul.

This is what the Wikipedia says:   The botanic name *Lilium* is the
Latinform and is a
Linnaean name. The Latin name is derived from the Greek ???????, *le?rion*,
generally assumed to refer to true, white lilies as exemplified by the Madonna
lily. The word was borrowed from Coptic (dial. Fayyumic) *hleri*, from
standard *hreri*, from Demotic *hrry*, from Egyptian *hrt?t* "flower".
Meillet maintains that both the Egyptian and the Greek word are possible
loans from an extinct, substratum language of the Eastern Mediterranean.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



----------



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 20111.03.29 (01) [EN]

Hallo leiw Lowlands-Fr?nn'.

Ok mi hett dit Thema/Saak nieglich (neugierig) makt.

So heff ick in B?uker sn?kert un taugliek mit ein Gr?uten nu dit, wat k?mmt.

LILIENGEW?CHSE  Liliaceae

*1. Kelchsimsenlilie,* *Tofieldia*
*2. Wei?er Germer, **Veratrum album*
*3. Herbstzeitlose,  **Colchicumautumnale
**4. B?renlauch, **Allium  ursinum
**5. T?rkenbundlilie, **Lilium martagon

*SCHWERTLILIENGEW?CHSE  Iridaceae
*
6. Fr?hlingskrokus, **Crocus albiflorus*

Lit.: PFLANZEN UND TIERE Urania-Verlag Leipzig . Jena . Berlin

*Lilie:* Der Pflanzenname *(mhd. *lilje, *ahd. *lilia) wurde im Mittelalter
aus *lat. *lilia, dem *Plural *von *lat. *lilium
"Lilie", entlehnt. Der Pflanzenname stammt aus einer ?stlichen
Mittelmeersprache.

*Tulpe: *Der Name der im 16. Jh. aus dem Vorderen Orient nach Europa
eingef?hrten Blume taucht zuerst in Reiseberichten des 16. Jh.s
als'Tulipa[n] auf. Durch *niederl. *Vermittlung erscheint im 17. Jh. die
Form 'Tulpe', die sp?ter allgemein ?blich wurde. Der aus dem *T?rk. *stammende
Pflanzenname ist in fast allen europ?ischen Sprachen vertreten, vgl. z.B.
entsprechend *it. *tulipano, *frz. *tulipe (?lter: tulipan), *span. *tulip?n,
*port. *tulipa, *engl. *tulip, *niederl. *tulp[e], *schwed.* tulpan u.a.
Diese alle gehen letztlich auf *pers.-osmanisch *t?lbant, t?lbent "Turban"
zur?ck. Die Pflanze ist also (von Europ?ern) nach ihrem turbanf?rmigen
Bl?tenkelch benannt worden.
Lit.: DUDEN 7

Von Mai*glocke *swenkt ick mal nah *Glocken*blumengew?chse:

http://nafoku.de/flora/campanulaceae/index.htm

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Glockenblumengew?chse

Un villicht k?nen wi all de Blaumen ehr Beiern, L?den odder Bimmeln h?ern...

Noch is dat hier wedder kolt worden, oewer f?r dat Weekenend' vermelln de
W?deraporten all
20 ?, wat seggst nu...

Hartlich.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 30 23:38:18 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:38:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2011.03.30 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.30.MAR.2011.163818.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 30 March - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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============================== =======================



From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.03.30 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Hallo Paul un Ron un all' Lowlanners.

Nu sall dat Oog ok noch up sien Kosten kamen:

http://www.fotosearch.de/bilder-fotos/nord-amerikanische-amsel.html

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotkehlchen

*Swartdrau?el* f. Schwarzdrossel, Amsel
*Rodb?ster *Rotkehlchen 1992 Vogel des Jahres

*Rodb?ster*

Worte: Hannelore Hinz
Melodie (Chorsatz): Eberhard Barbi

Rodb?ster, Rodb?ster
din K?hl l?cht' so rod.
Wat sall dat bed?den,
k?mmst du nu betiden
womoeglich in Not?

Den'n Abend, den'n Abend
s?ngst du dor f?r mi?
Dat kl?ng' all' so trurig,
un ick set' so lurig,
ick stah di je bi.

L?tt Vagel, l?tt Vagel
din Bost glummt so wit.
Sall de mi wohrschugen?
M??t h?ger nu bugen,
ward b?ter din Tit.

Rodb?ster, Rodb?ster
din Leed kl?ng' so heit.
Dat sall mi bed?den,
du brukst uns tautiden,
de Minsch dat nu weit. . .

Un wedder ein hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Mar 30 23:43:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:43:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.03.30 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.MAR.2011.164338.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 30 March - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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============================== =======================



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L Resources

Learn some West-Flemish from the clip at:

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=BLBCA_20110329_001



Regards,

Roger



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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Mar 31 16:39:56 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:39:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.03.31 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.31.MAR.2011.093956.0700.>

=====================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 31 March - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>

Subject: LL-L Translations

Who can translate this language:

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/38/Je-Kinderen/article/detail/1243856/2011/03/31/Wat-hebben-deze-tweelingen-elkaar-te-zeggen.dhtml



Regards,

Roger





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