From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  1 22:31:46 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:31:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.11.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.NOV.2011.153146.0700.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 01 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in November of 2011!



First of all, welcome to those of you that joined us since the beginning of
October 2011!


 *India* (भारत, ভারত, ભારત, ਭਾਰਤ, ಭಾರತ, ഇന്ത്യ, ଭାରତ, भारतम्, இந்தியா,
భారత, بھارت):
       Punjab (ਪੰਜਾਬ):
              Rajpura (ਰਾਜਪੂਰਾ) [1]
*Netherlands* (Nederland, Nederlaand, Nederlân)*:*
       Gelderland:
              Wezep [1]
       Northern Holland (Noord-Holland):
              Amsterdam [1]
       Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland):
              Valkenburg [1]
*United Kingdom*:
       England:
              Derbyshire:
                     Derby [1]
*United States of America*:
       District of Columbia:
             Washington [1]

 *SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*Subject headers*

Some of you are still not following the subject header rule (see *Do not
mix topics* under Rules below). Here in brief:


   - *Only one topic per message*
   - *In responding to an earlier posting, please use the subject line that
   already exists for a given thread. Do not change or "tweak" it, not the
   date and language labels either!*
   - *Only if you start a thread may you suggest your own subject header,
   but do not insist on your subject header if I change it.*

*List Mail v Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as
responses to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this
distinction it could happen that your private message ends up posted to the
List. For administrative purposes, it's best if you use
lowlands.list at gmail.com.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from
the address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from
that address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to
unsubscribe or change their subscription configurations from addresses that
are not subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only
from the subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ([ ]). This indicates which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains
the URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting
proposals. In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities:



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon (in the US even groceries!) you might as well do so via our
Lowlands-L shops (so far in Canada, Germany, France, Japan, UK and USA - (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)) which have constantly changing
Lowlands-related selections. We (i.e. Lowlands-L) get a small percentage of
Amazon sales if you enter Amazon through these portals. Believe me: it
hardly pays a tiny fraction of the money I pay out of my own pocket to
bringing Lowlands-L to you, and I am not even counting the hours of work I
put into it.



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting
postings. So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.
*Many of you are still not following this rule. (Please see my note at the
top.)

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are visible only
to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward and
participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your
view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do something
in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides,
we will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not getting and doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up
your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is
not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
even if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please!

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


*Edit quotes:* If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
relevant to your response.


*Give credit:* Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If
you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as
the author. That simply will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.



*Sign off:* If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving
us the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address and your name.



*Temporary Absence*

   - Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
   arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
   lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be
   stopped and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members
   can attest, this has been working really well. It certainly beats the old,
   crude method of signing off and on again.
   - Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice.
   Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out"
   for some infraction or other. (I know this for sure only about those that
   contact me. But it happens again and again and involves even the nicest,
   best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have
   received prior reprimands and warnings (which happen very rarely, have not
   happened at all for well over two years). If you find yourself disconnected
   from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has
   unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because
   your mail servers keep informing the list server that you cannot be reached
   or is filled above quota. Most of the time this is due to temporary
   disconnection.
   - Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or
   "spam" filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why
   our mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes.
   - So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam"
   filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem
   if all of the above fails.
   - Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an
   application. I'll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
sassisch at yahoo.com


 =========================================================
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  1 22:34:32 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:34:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.11.01 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.NOV.2011.153432.0700.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 01 November 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be

Subject: LL-L Endangered Languages


There are quite some endangered languages in the US.

One of these is “Missouri French”:


*Missouri is home to an endangered dialect of the French language
known as Missouri
French. Speakers of the dialect, who call themselves Creoles, are
descendants of the French pioneers who settled the area then known as the
Illinois Country beginning in the late 17th century. It developed in
isolation from French speakers in Canada and Louisiana, becoming quite
distinct from the varieties of Canadian French and Louisiana Creole French.
Once widely spoken throughout the area, Missouri French is now nearly
extinct, with only a few elderly speakers able to use it*.

pasted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri


I’m on a project in St Louis Mo and I will be over there most of my time in
the period Dec 2011– May 2012. So I’m interested whether somebody has any
clues how to contact speakers of Missouri French.

Regards,
Roger
=========================================================
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  7 00:56:46 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 16:56:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2011.11.06 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.6.NOV.2011.165646.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 06 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>

Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.11.01 (01) [EN]


I wish everyone a good Offering Feast; Je souhais une bonne Fête de Tabaski
à tout le monde; 'Id el Adha mubarak!
Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Thanks, Ingmar.

Christian All Saints Day and varieties of the Day of the Dead, as well as
the "Pagan," "Celtic" and Jewish High Holy Days recently behind us, I'm
joining Ingmar in sending best wishes to our Muslim members and their loved
ones for a wonderful عيد الأضحى (‘Īd al-’Aḍḥá, Festival of Sacrifice). This
holiday commemorates the willingness of Abraham (אַבְרָהָם *ʼAḇrāhām*,
إبراهيم‎ *ʾIbrāhīm*) to sacrifice his son. Because of this, this festival
is celebrated widely throughout the Islamic world under various names
referring to "sacrifice" (*qorbân* etc.).

Regards and Love,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
 =========================================================
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  7 01:02:45 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 17:02:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.11.06 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.6.NOV.2011.170245.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 06 November 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.11.01 (01) [EN]

Another member from Derby! Two of us!

Paul
Derby
England

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in November of 2011!



First of all, welcome to those of you that joined us since the beginning of
October 2011!


 *India* (भारत, ভারত, ભારત, ਭਾਰਤ, ಭಾರತ, ഇന്ത്യ, ଭାରତ, भारतम्, இந்தியா,
భారత, بھارت):
       Punjab (ਪੰਜਾਬ):
              Rajpura (ਰਾਜਪੂਰਾ) [1]
*Netherlands* (Nederland, Nederlaand, Nederlân)*:*
        Gelderland:
              Wezep [1]
       Northern Holland (Noord-Holland):
              Amsterdam [1]
       Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland):
              Valkenburg [1]
*United Kingdom*:
       England:
              Derbyshire:
                     Derby [1]
*United States of America*:
       District of Columbia:
             Washington [1]

 =========================================================
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Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  7 23:25:51 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:25:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.07 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.7.NOV.2011.152551.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 07 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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=====================================================



From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>

Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2011.11.06 (01) [EN]

I wish everyone a good Offering Feast; Je souhais une bonne Fête de Tabaski
à tout le monde; 'Id el Adha mubarak!
Ingmar

Thanks, Ron. I called it incorrectly "Offering Feast" instead of Sacrifice
Festival, because of the Dutch name "Offerfeest", compare German
"Opferfest". Btw I wonder why German has -pf- instead of -ff- in this word,
it seems to be a hypercorrection to me, because the original Latin verb is
"offere" to offer. Or was the German word influenced by Latin operari, to
work, which may have given a p => pf in German ?
Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Holidays

Thanks, Ingmar.

Christian All Saints Day and varieties of the Day of the Dead, as well as
the "Pagan," "Celtic" and Jewish High Holy Days recently behind us, I'm
joining Ingmar in sending best wishes to our Muslim members and their loved
ones for a wonderful عيد الأضحى (‘Īd al-’Aḍḥá, Festival of Sacrifice). This
holiday commemorates the willingness of Abraham (אַבְרָהָם ʼAḇrāhām,
إبراهيم‎ ʾIbrāhīm) to sacrifice his son. Because of this, this festival is
celebrated widely throughout the Islamic world under various names
referring to "sacrifice" (qorbân etc.).

Regards and Love,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz hannehinz at t-online.de
Subject: Etymology

Hallo all' Lowlanners!

Ick will hapen, dat all' Mitmakers gaud tauwäg sünd (gesund).

Mi is upfollen, dat för poor Daag i'n Radio in ein'n "hochdüütschen" Bidrag
dat Wuurd  'Mumpitz' snackt wüür. Ick kenn Mumpitz man blot as ein
nedderdüütschet Wuurd.
So heff ick nahkäken bi Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*Mumpitz *m. Unsinn, Dummheit (Hagenow/Belsch) WOLF 3723 [Wolf  Siegmund,
A. Wolf, Wörterbuch des Rotwelschen (Deutsche Gaunersprache). Mannheim
1956. Zit. nach Artikelnummern. - Zig.: Großes Wörterbuch der
Zigeunersprache. Mannheim 1960. Zit. nach Artikelnummern.]

Ja un in'n DUDEN 7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache künn ick dit Wuurt ok
läsen: Der seit der zweiten Hälfte des 19. Jh.s gebräuchliche Ausdruck
*Mumpitz **ugs.  *für  "Unsinn, Schwindel" stammt aus dem Berliner
Börsenjargon.
Wie älteres 'Mummelputz' "Vogelscheuche" (17. Jh.) und *hess. *Mombotz
"Schreckgestalt" bedeutet auch das Wort 'Mumpitz' eigentlich "[vermummte]
Schreckgestalt, Schreckgespenst" (vgl. *putzig*)*. *Im Börsenjargon
bezeichnete es zunächst ein erschreckendes oder schwindelhaftes Gerede.

Hm, wat weit' ji denn womoeglich, woans dat noch heiten künn.

Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  8 17:27:51 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:27:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.8.NOV.2011.092751.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 08 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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From: list at marcusbuck.org

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.07 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]


From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>

>
> Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2011.11.06 (01) [EN]
>
> I wish everyone a good Offering Feast; Je souhais une bonne Fête de Tabaski
> à tout le monde; 'Id el Adha mubarak!
> Ingmar
>
> Thanks, Ron. I called it incorrectly "Offering Feast" instead of Sacrifice
> Festival, because of the Dutch name "Offerfeest", compare German
> "Opferfest". Btw I wonder why German has -pf- instead of -ff- in this word,
> it seems to be a hypercorrection to me, because the original Latin verb is
> "offere" to offer. Or was the German word influenced by Latin operari, to
> work, which may have given a p => pf in German ?
> Ingmar
>

Indeed. This also reflects in the old terms for sacristan (in German
"Küster", Low Saxon "Köster") which in Middle Low Saxon times was called
"Offermann" or "Oppermann" in some regions. This also became a surname. The
North Low Saxon region preferred "Offermann" and the Eastfalian region
preferred "Oppermann". It's indeed from the words "offere"/"operari". (See
e.g. <http://www.answers.com/topic/oppermann>)

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  9 03:31:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:31:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.8.NOV.2011.193105.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 08 November 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================


From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (01) [EN]

So as ümmer "Hallo leiw' Lowlanners".

*opfern: *Das aus der Kirchensprache stammende Verb mhd. opfern, ahd.
opharōn (ursprünglich "etwas Gott als Opfergabe darbringen") ist entlehnt
aus* lat.-kirchenlat*. operari
"werktätig sein, arbeiten; einer religiösen  Handlung obliegen, der
Gottheit durch Opfer dienen; Almosen geben. Über weitere etymologische
Zusammenhänge vgl. operieren. - Eine alte Rückbildung aus dem Verb 'opfern'
ist das Substantiv *Opfer *(mhd. opfer, ahd. opfar).
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Küster: *"Kirchendiener": Die nhd. Form des Wortes geht über mhd. kuster
auf ahd. kustor zurück, das aus mlat. custor "Hüter (des Kirchenschatzes);
Kirchenpfleger" entlehnt ist. Dies gehört zu lat. custos "Wächter,
Aufseher. Hüter usw."
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Köster *m. Küster: 'de Köste' (Rostock 1676)
Sachliches: dei Köster ist seit den Zeiten der Reformation zunächst der
Gehilfe des Pfarrherrn, des *Preisters* oder *Pasters*, bei dessen
sämtlichen Amtshandlungen, zu denen er diesen stets abzuholen hat; vgl.
Ord. d. Misse von 1545, deren erster Abschnitt beginnt: 'wo sick de
Kerckheren unde Kosters up den Doorpen des Sonnavednes, ock alle andere
hillige Avende holden schooelen'; jeden Wochentag hat der Küster dreimal
dei *Bäad'klock* tau stöten, sonntags den Gottesdienst einzuläuten, in der
Kirche die  Gesangsnummern anzustecken und die Gemeindelieder anzustimmen,
mancherorts auch den *Kling'büdel* herumzureichen.
 *Offer* n. a. Spr. Opfer, Gabe der Gläubigen für die Gottheit.
Die Wortform *Offer *zum Verb *offern* aus lat. *offerre* ist dem Nd. über
das Mittel- und Niederrheingebiet aus der galloromanischen  Kirchensprache
zugeflossen. Im mod. Nd. tritt sie hinter hd. Opfer, opfern stark zurück.
Auffällig ist ein Beleg für *Opper* 'Oek ensal de brůdir eder prister . . .
tů nenerleye opper grypen, dt dar velle edder vellich were'  (Wismar/Temzin
1395); das im As.  altsächsisch) neben Offar bezeugte Opper aus lat. opera,
operari, ein früh von der süddeutschen Kirchensprache ins Nd.
ausstrahlendes Lehnwort, das auf hd. Gebiet mit Lautverschiebung *Opfer *ergab
FRINGS Germ. Rom 112*
*Theodor Frings; Germ. Rom: Germania Romana. Teuth. Beiheft 4.
Mittldeutsche Studien, Heft 2. Halle 1932. Grundl.: Grundlegung einer
Geschichte der deutschen Sprache. 3. Aufl. Halle 1957.

*offern, *mod. meist durch das hd. Wort ersetzt, opfern; refl.: sich zum
Opfer bringen: 'wil ick (Christus) my sůlvest vor de suende offeren' Ord.
d. Misse; ein Opfer, häufig Geldopfer bringen. Zss.: nahoffern; hen-,
veropfern. - Mnd. offeren.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert (Auszüge/Abschnitte)

Nu is dat doch mihr worden, as ick dacht' heff.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 13 22:41:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:41:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.13 (01) [DE-NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.NOV.2011.144143.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 13 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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From: Luc Vanbrabant lucv32 at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (02) [DE-NDS]

Dag,

De priesters (pasters) hebben in Vlaanderen  een 'koster'.
Voor de orde in de kerk bestaan hier en daar nog 'kerkbaljuws'. Vroeger was
dit algemener. Zo'n kerkbaljuw werd in de volksmond 'suisse' genaamd omdat
ze deden denken aan de Zwitserse garde van de paus.

Vriendelijke groeten,

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (01) [EN]

So as ümmer "Hallo leiw' Lowlanners".

*opfern: *Das aus der Kirchensprache stammende Verb mhd. opfern, ahd.
opharōn (ursprünglich "etwas Gott als Opfergabe darbringen") ist entlehnt
aus* lat.-kirchenlat*. operari
"werktätig sein, arbeiten; einer religiösen  Handlung obliegen, der
Gottheit durch Opfer dienen; Almosen geben. Über weitere etymologische
Zusammenhänge vgl. operieren. - Eine alte Rückbildung aus dem Verb 'opfern'
ist das Substantiv *Opfer *(mhd. opfer, ahd. opfar).
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Küster: *"Kirchendiener": Die nhd. Form des Wortes geht über mhd. kuster
auf ahd. kustor zurück, das aus mlat. custor "Hüter (des Kirchenschatzes);
Kirchenpfleger" entlehnt ist. Dies gehört zu lat. custos "Wächter,
Aufseher. Hüter usw."
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Köster *m. Küster: 'de Köste' (Rostock 1676)
Sachliches: dei Köster ist seit den Zeiten der Reformation zunächst der
Gehilfe des Pfarrherrn, des *Preisters* oder *Pasters*, bei dessen
sämtlichen Amtshandlungen, zu denen er diesen stets abzuholen hat; vgl.
Ord. d. Misse von 1545, deren erster Abschnitt beginnt: 'wo sick de
Kerckheren unde Kosters up den Doorpen des Sonnavednes, ock alle andere
hillige Avende holden schooelen'; jeden Wochentag hat der Küster dreimal
dei *Bäad'klock* tau stöten, sonntags den Gottesdienst einzuläuten, in der
Kirche die  Gesangsnummern anzustecken und die Gemeindelieder anzustimmen,
mancherorts auch den *Kling'büdel* herumzureichen.
 *Offer* n. a. Spr. Opfer, Gabe der Gläubigen für die Gottheit.
Die Wortform *Offer *zum Verb *offern* aus lat. *offerre* ist dem Nd. über
das Mittel- und Niederrheingebiet aus der galloromanischen  Kirchensprache
zugeflossen. Im mod. Nd. tritt sie hinter hd. Opfer, opfern stark zurück.
Auffällig ist ein Beleg für *Opper* 'Oek ensal de brůdir eder prister . . .
tů nenerleye opper grypen, dt dar velle edder vellich were'  (Wismar/Temzin
1395); das im As.  altsächsisch) neben Offar bezeugte Opper aus lat. opera,
operari, ein früh von der süddeutschen Kirchensprache ins Nd.
ausstrahlendes Lehnwort, das auf hd. Gebiet mit Lautverschiebung *Opfer *ergab
FRINGS Germ. Rom 112*
*Theodor Frings; Germ. Rom: Germania Romana. Teuth. Beiheft 4.
Mittldeutsche Studien, Heft 2. Halle 1932. Grundl.: Grundlegung einer
Geschichte der deutschen Sprache. 3. Aufl. Halle 1957.

*offern, *mod. meist durch das hd. Wort ersetzt, opfern; refl.: sich zum
Opfer bringen: 'wil ick (Christus) my sůlvest vor de suende offeren' Ord.
d. Misse; ein Opfer, häufig Geldopfer bringen. Zss.: nahoffern; hen-,
veropfern. - Mnd. offeren.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert (Auszüge/Abschnitte)

Nu is dat doch mihr worden, as ick dacht' heff.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 13 22:45:00 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:45:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2011.11.13 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.NOV.2011.144500.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 13 November 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: John Bockman jbockman at japan.lakeland.edu
 <lucv32 at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L travel tips

This is not a travel tip per se but a family history that I'd like you
to look at.
https://sites.google.com/a/japan.lakeland.edu/bockman-family-history/Home/prehistory

--
John
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 13 22:55:14 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:55:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.13 (03) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.NOV.2011.145514.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 13 November 2011 - Volume 03
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen"
<info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl><jbockman at japan.lakeland.edu>
 Subject: LL-L

Beste Lowlanders,
Waarom het sinds 'Offering Feast' opeens erg stil blijft op LL-L, vroeg ik
mij af...

Met het lezen van allerlei Nedersaksische dialecten maar ook met Duits,
Nederlands, Frysk, Vlaams, Frans, Engels, Afrikaans, e.d. heb ik weinig
moeite. En nee, geloof me, ik heb werkelijk niets tegen welke politiek en
welke geloofsovertuiging ook. Ik heb wel iets tegen mensen die al dan niet
moedwillig en al dan niet met behulp Google, geloofachtige kretologie
bijeen verzamelen en daar anderen (mij in ieder geval) mee lastig vallen.
Als dat ook nog in een voor mij onleesbare taal (o.a. Hebrew, Arab, o.i.d.)
gebeurt, op een discussieforum waar ik dit niet verwacht, ja, dan haak ik
af. Ik wil namelijk wel graag lezen en vooral ook begrijpen wat er staat.
Als het iets met Nedersaksisch of andere bovengenoemde talen te maken heeft
wil ik er zelfs m'n stinkende best voor doen om het te begrijpen maar
allerlei geloofsuitingen, wensen of misschien wel verwensingen in korte
zinnen die buiten mijn westerse norm vallen, zijn voor mij geen punt van
discussie. Een aantal zaken - waaronder politiek en geloof - kun je m.i.
niet afdoen met slaken een paar kreten.

Graag was ik een nieuwe topic gestart over bijvoorbeeld dat 'slaken'
hierboven of over de erg interessante bodemvondsten die onlangs zijn gedaan
onder de gevangenis 'Santa Fu' van Hamburg (Dld) (zie: Hamburger
Abendblatt, 31-10-2011). Dat heeft waarschijnlijk heel veel, zelfs met het
ontstaan van ons Nedersaksisch te maken. Maar nee, ik doe het niet. Ik
luister nog een poosje en wellicht haak ik dan geruisloos af.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Dear Piet,

Apparently you understand more languages that are used here than do many
other members. According to our rules, *any* language may be used.

Beste Piet,

Blijkbaar begrijp je meer talen die hier worden gebruikt dan doen veel andere
leden. Volgens onze regels, kan elke taal gebruikt worden.

MVG/Regards,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 14 20:57:49 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:57:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "History" 2011.11.14 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.14.NOV.2011.125749.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 14 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com<jbockman at japan.lakeland.edu>
 Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2011.11.13 (02) [EN]

That website page should be reproduced here as a post... excellent. Never
knew that was why the saxons gto their names...

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've
written one is never at peace"*
----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L travel tips

Hallo John un all' Lowlanners.

Ick bün  dien Bäd' nahgahn un heff de Web-Sid besöcht.
De beiden "Pierdköpp" as Gäwelsmuck hebben mi tauseggt, wiel dat je ok hier
in Mäkelborg noch begäng is.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pferdeköpfe_(Giebelschmuck)

Ick fang mal mit de Grotdör an.
Oewer de Grotdör stünn up den'n *Dörbalken (SYN. Dörholm) *mihrstens ein
Inschrift.  Mal mit Antiqua-Baukstawen un ok mit Fraktur-Baukstawen.
In dit lütte Bauk "Mecklenburgische ORNAMENT-FIBEL" heff ick  twei funn'n
mit diss Baukstawen:

DER . HERR . SEGNE . VND . BEWAHRE . DIESES . HAVE . ALLE .  DIE . DA .
GEHEN . EIN . VND . AUS .
ANDREIS . SCHMIT . MARA . PANKEN . ANNO 1726
DE . N. 22 . MARTIVS

UN:

Der Herr segnet die ihn fürchten bey de Kleine und  Grosse
Woomer denzten Märtz Ao 1781

Un hier dat Bedüden (mihr ein Versäuk) von de Pierdköpp:

- Kieken sick de beiden Pierdköpp an, winken sei dat Glück in't Huus.
- Kieken sei sick nich an, denn kann nicks Bös' dat Huus drapen.
- Pierdköpp, de nah binnen kieken, sünd ein Symbol för Harmonie
  twüschen Mann un Fru; kieken's nah buten, denn gellt dat Teiken
  Unfräden mank Fru un Mann.
- Kieken sick de Pierdköpp an, denn heit dat, dat all' Mannslüüd von
  denn' Hoff tau Huus sünd; kieken sei sick nich an, dat all' Mannslüüd
  von dissen Hoff in'n Krieg sünd.
- Nah binnen kieken(d) Köpp wiesen up de "Einheirat" Infriegen  von
denn'
  Mann (Kierl) up denn' Hoff; nah buten kieken(d) Köpp gellt dat för dat
  Infriegen von de Fru up denn' Hoff.

So, nu kännt ji dat utleggen, as ji willt... odder so as Dackdecker Möller
holl'n... (de let dat so..)

Mi würd dit mal verlangen, ob noch männigein wat tau dat Utdüden von de
Pierdköpp bidragen kann.

Na, denn HÜH! - Prrr!

Hanne ut Swerin

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 15 18:12:09 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:12:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.15 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.NOV.2011.101209.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 15 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
 Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.13 (03) [EN-NL]

Dag Piet,



Zo is het nu eenmaal, we moeten allemaal wel eens een keertje van ons
afblazen. Maar dat krantenbericht kan ik niet vinden, is het misschien de
verkeerde datum??
Jacqueline BdJ

** ----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.13 (03) [EN-NL]

Waor heb ie 't nou eigenlijk over, Bult, wat zit oe dwars? Toch niet die
gelokswuns veur 't Offerfeest, zo knieperig zo'j toch wel niet wezen? 't
Zol toch niet zo weden da'w hier meinsen wel een goeie Sunterklaos  of
Karst toe weinsen meugt van oe, mar gien Chanoeka, Ramadan of Holi-festival?
Waorumme dan wel niet, umdat die geleuven niet hier in de lege laanden
thuus heurt, volgens oe?
Misschien he'k 't mis, lees ik oen bosschop verkeerd, mar as ik 't niet mis
hebbe, doe dan mar wa'j in oen leste zin zegt...
Ingmar

What are you talking about, Bult, what's bothering you? Hopefully not my
wishes for the sacrifice Festival, you won't be that little-minded? It
can't be that we can wish people a good Saint Nicholas or Christmas
according to you, but not Khanuka, Ramadhan or Holi festival?
Why couldn't we, maybe because these religions don't belong in the low
lands, according to you?
Maybe I'm wrong and misread your message, but if I didn't, maybe you should
do what you were saying in your last sentence (i.e.: threatening to leave
this group because he doesn't want to be bothered with non-Western things
here)

Ingmar

From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
 Subject: LL-L

Beste Lowlanders,
Waarom het sinds 'Offering Feast' opeens erg stil blijft op LL-L, vroeg ik
mij af...

Met het lezen van allerlei Nedersaksische dialecten maar ook met Duits,
Nederlands, Frysk, Vlaams, Frans, Engels, Afrikaans, e.d. heb ik weinig
moeite. En nee, geloof me, ik heb werkelijk niets tegen welke politiek en
welke geloofsovertuiging ook. Ik heb wel iets tegen mensen die al dan niet
moedwillig en al dan niet met behulp Google, geloofachtige kretologie
bijeen verzamelen en daar anderen (mij in ieder geval) mee lastig vallen.
Als dat ook nog in een voor mij onleesbare taal (o.a. Hebrew, Arab, o.i.d.)
gebeurt, op een discussieforum waar ik dit niet verwacht, ja, dan haak ik
af. Ik wil namelijk wel graag lezen en vooral ook begrijpen wat er staat.
Als het iets met Nedersaksisch of andere bovengenoemde talen te maken heeft
wil ik er zelfs m'n stinkende best voor doen om het te begrijpen maar
allerlei geloofsuitingen, wensen of misschien wel verwensingen in korte
zinnen die buiten mijn westerse norm vallen, zijn voor mij geen punt van
discussie. Een aantal zaken - waaronder politiek en geloof - kun je m.i.
niet afdoen met slaken een paar kreten.

Graag was ik een nieuwe topic gestart over bijvoorbeeld dat 'slaken'
hierboven of over de erg interessante bodemvondsten die onlangs zijn gedaan
onder de gevangenis 'Santa Fu' van Hamburg (Dld) (zie: Hamburger
Abendblatt, 31-10-2011). Dat heeft waarschijnlijk heel veel, zelfs met het
ontstaan van ons Nedersaksisch te maken. Maar nee, ik doe het niet. Ik
luister nog een poosje en wellicht haak ik dan geruisloos af.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Dear Piet,

Apparently you understand more languages that are used here than do many
other members. According to our rules, any language may be used.

Beste Piet,

Blijkbaar begrijp je meer talen die hier worden gebruikt dan doen veel
andere leden. Volgens onze regels, kan elke taal gebruikt worden.

MVG/Regards,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Wo! Easy, guys!

Surely there's some misunderstanding.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 16 18:28:48 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:28:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.16 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.NOV.2011.102848.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 16 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: mike.keach at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.15 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]

Really. Everyone take three healing breaths.

[Mike Keach]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Good advice, Mike.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

** ----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.15 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]

Insha'allah that you are right. Sorry for all this. Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Language use

Wo! Easy, guys!

Surely there's some misunderstanding.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Thanks, Ingmar.

I personally did not think that Piet's posting came from a place of
intolerance. I rather believe that it was provoked by his eagerness to
understand everything that is posted here.

Posting in Lowlands languages is, of course, most appropriate and reaches
the largest number of readers. Among them, English is optimal in this
sense. But the use of other Lowlands language varieties is encouraged
because of their relevance and because of the fact that our subscribers
want to be exposed to them for learning purposes.

However, this does not mean that other languages are excluded, especially
in cases like welcoming messages and felicitations. A sizable percentage of
our members are from places other than Europe, North America, Australia and
New Zealand, and a lot of them are not Christian or even of Christian
background. I want all of them to feel as welcome and validated as everyone
else.

Global communication is advancing rapidly, and Lowlands-L is an
international community in which all sorts of voices can and should be
heard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Language use"

Beste Ingmar,

You wrote:

What are you talking about, Bult, what's bothering you? Hopefully not my
wishes for the sacrifice Festival, you won't be that little-minded? It
can't be that we can wish people a good Saint Nicholas or Christmas
according to you, but not Khanuka, Ramadhan or Holi festival?
Why couldn't we, maybe because these religions don't belong in the low
lands, according to you?


Not talking about Piet Bult here, but just to give you a general idea of
how tolerant some of our compatriots are:

Helft Vlamingen stoort zich aan vreemde talen op straat - De
Standaard<http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF20111115_009>

Yes, I'm living in a small country (these days). 'Nuff said.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 01:30:34 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:30:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.16 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.NOV.2011.173034.0800.>

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From: Lowlands-L - 16. November 2011 - Volume 01
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.15 (01 [EN-NDS-NL]

Hallo all' Lowlanners.

Ick kann dat gor nich so recht verstahn, dat sowat as ein Unfräden ünner de
Maten upkamen is. Ick bün mi ümmer wedder wiss, wat mi Lowlands bedüden
deit. Lowlands is för mi so wat as ein Sod. Hier heff ick denn' besten Weg
funn'n, wo ick noch väl, bannig väl taulihren kann, nich blot Spraken
seggen mi tau, ok dat woroewer beraden ward un all' dat, wat mit Spraken
tau  daun hett, un ok de Mitmakers, de Minschen.
Wi sünd doch weltwied ein grotorrig Sprakenbom un uns' Baas Ron hett de
beste Ort un Wies', uns ümmer tau Sied tau stahn. Wo kann man hüt noch so
feine un klauke Maten finn'n. Mi bedüden sei all' väl un ick häg grot
Hochachten. Wi känen doch all'ns in Frieheit mit Pli un Fantasie angahn, wi
hebben doch denn' besten Wiespahl, un wenn wi de Vörschriften inholl'n,
denn kann nicks nich scheif lopen. Keinein leggt uns Käden an, wi all' sünd
frie. Frieheit un Respekt gellt ok för denn' Gloven, un wo riek is de, de
noch glöwen kann.
Uns' Baas hölt dat Stüer (Steuer) fast un dat möt man em hoch danken. Ick
heff mi oft eins wat utdruckt vun wägen de Sprak, so taun Bispill
Nederlands Sprak. Dor kann ick väl von afläsen, woans Plattdüütsch un
Nedderland sick mögen. Ick heff mi so gor vör poor Johr (as ick noch nich
bi LL wier) up denn' Flohmark ein grotorrig Wüürbauk köfft "KRAMERS DUITS
WOORDEN BOEK NederlandsDuits/DuitsNederlands VAN GOOR ZONEN.
Un mit mien Ingelsch lihren bün ick ümmer noch taugang, dat möt noch
riepen, un künn je sien, dat ick mi denn eins unvermaudens mit dis' Sprak
mellen dau. Man, dat brukt all' sien Tied.
Oewer up Lowlands lat ick nicks nich kamen, ick wüßt kein bäter Städ. De
Spraken bringen uns doch neger un jedein Sprak het ehr eigen Melodei
(Sound), wo künn ick süss sowat noch finn'n... Nu hebben wi unsen besten
Sprakenbom un sien Wötteln sünd eddel un holl'n ut.

IDIOM: Heraus mit der Sprache! *Out with it! *Rut mit de Sprak!
So heff ick mi nu up mien Oort tau Wuurd mellt.
Ick kann ümmer un will wedder unsen Ron danken un ok all' Frünn'.
Mit best Gräuten.

Hanne
ut Schwerin

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 02:20:31 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:20:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.NOV.2011.182031.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Dear Lowlanders,

I've long been intrigued by the semantic development of the word complex
"dear" within the Germanic languages, and I wonder if you have any
information to add.

"Dear" and its relatives can mean the following:

   1. highly valued (dear to one's heart)
   2. expensive (having a high price)

Clearly, the common denominator is "valuable" or "valued."

In the English-speaking world there appears to be a split:

   1. American English uses "dear" only in the first-mentioned sense, with
   idiomatic exceptions (i.e., supposedly archaisms) such as "to pay a dear
   price" or "to pay dearly."
   2. Non-American English, at least many varieties of it, uses "dear" in
   both senses. Thus, for instance, in Australian English you may say
   something like "Computers are very expensive" and "Computers are very
   dear." The latter sounds strange to most American.

How does this play out in related language varieties?

   - Scots:* dear** ** *both 'expensive' and 'dear'
   - West Frisian: *djoer* both 'expensive' and 'dear'
   - Low Saxon: *düür *'expensive' (somewhat archaic also as 'dear (to
   one's heart))'
   - Dutch: *duur* 'expensive' (?)
   - Limburgish: *deur* (*dœr*) 'expensive'
   - Afrikaans: *duur* 'expensive' (?, but *dierbaar* 'valuable',
   'esteemed')
   - German: *teuer* 'expensive' (somewhat archaic also as 'dear (to one's
   heart)')
   - Yiddish: *tayer* (טײַער) both 'expensive' and 'dear'
   - Danish: *dyr* 'expensive'
   - Norwegian: *dyr* 'expensive'
   - Swedish:* dyr* 'expensive'
   - Icelandic: *dýr** *'expensive'

Once we get into the ancestral language varieties it becomes a different
game, and the two meanings will eventually merge. In other words, somewhere
along the line a semantic split occurred.

Any further information or simply thoughts?

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 18:40:14 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:40:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.17 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.104014.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.16 (01) [EN]


Thanks Ron and the others who reacted or just read,

I hope so Ron. For the great part of members here who're not fluent in
Dutch, I'll translate Piet Bult's original message, to which I reacted so
uncalmly again:

"...Dear Lowlanders,
 Why since the "Sacrifice Feast" was brought up here, suddenly it's very
quiet at LL-L, I wondered ...

With reading of various Low Saxon dialects but also German, Dutch, Frisian,
Flemish, French, English, Afrikaans, etc. I have little trouble. And no,
believe me, I really have nothing against any religion and politics either.
I have something against people who either deliberately or otherwise and
whether or not using Google, like to bother me and others with their noise
about faith. If that is in an unreadable language (including Hebrew, Arab,
or the like) for me, in a discussion forum where I do not expect, yes, I
occasionally hook off. Because I would like to read and above all
understand what it says. If it is something about Low Saxon, or other
aforementioned languages I do even my stinking best to understand, but many
expressions about faith, religious wishes or even curses in short sentences
that are outside my western standard, I don't want to discuss about. Some
subjects - such as political and religious ones - can only provoke me to
utter a few screams.

 I would like to start a new thread, for example that "heave" over the very
interesting archaeological finds made recently in the prison 'Santa Fu'
from Hamburg (Ger) (see: Hamburger Abendblatt, 10/31/2011). That has to do
probably a lot with, or may be even essential for the emergence of our Low
Saxon. But no, I will not.
I'll listen here for a while and then I could hook off silently.
 With kind Stellingwerf greetings,
 Peter Bult

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language use

Thanks, Ingmar.

I personally did not think that Piet's posting came from a place of
intolerance. I rather believe that it was provoked by his eagerness to
understand everything that is posted here.

Posting in Lowlands languages is, of course, most appropriate and reaches
the largest number of readers. Among them, English is optimal in this
sense. But the use of other Lowlands language varieties is encouraged
because of their relevance and because of the fact that our subscribers
want to be exposed to them for learning purposes.

However, this does not mean that other languages are excluded, especially
in cases like welcoming messages and felicitations. A sizable percentage of
our members are from places other than Europe, North America, Australia and
New Zealand, and a lot of them are not Christian or even of Christian
background. I want all of them to feel as welcome and validated as everyone
else.

Global communication is advancing rapidly, and Lowlands-L is an
international community in which all sorts of voices can and should be
heard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA


----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Thanks, Ingmar.

I suggest we allow this subject to rest now.

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 18:45:13 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:45:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.104513.0800.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]


I've never noted before how the Scandinavian forms are very close to the
basic Germanic "animal" or "beast" words (ON *dyr*, NE "deer", German
*Tier*etc.).  Is this likely to be coincidence, or is it related to
the
association of wealth and animals, like "fee" and OE *feoh* etc?

Incidentally a friend in South Africa used to say her husband was
"dierbaar" - she joked it meant half animal, half barbarian!

Paul
Derby ("Animal Town")
England

----------


 From: Luc Vanbrabant lucv32 at gmail.com

 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]

Dag Ron,

West-Vlaams:
dier diere (expensive)
dierbaar (dearly beloved)
dieren, verdieren, dierzen (r niet uitspreken) = duurder worden
te dieren danse = aan een zeer hoge prijs

Nederlands:
duurbaar / dierbaar (dearly beloved).
duurte = expensiveness
duurzaam = durable, lasting

Groetjes

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

 ----------


 From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]

Ron wrote:
>
> Dutch: duur 'expensive' (?)
> Limburgish: deur (dœr) 'expensive'
> Afrikaans: duur 'expensive' (?, but dierbaar 'valuable', 'esteemed')

Dutch also has dierbaar in the meaning of 'dear to one's heart' /
'valuable'.

cheers,
Henry

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 20:31:02 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:31:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (03) [EN-FY]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.123102.0800.>

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From: Henno Brandsma hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Dear Lowlanders,

I've long been intrigued by the semantic development of the word complex
"dear" within the Germanic languages, and I wonder if you have any
information to add.

"Dear" and its relatives can mean the following:

   1. highly valued (dear to one's heart)
   2. expensive (having a high price)

Clearly, the common denominator is "valuable" or "valued."

In the English-speaking world there appears to be a split:

   1. American English uses "dear" only in the first-mentioned sense, with
   idiomatic exceptions (i.e., supposedly archaisms) such as "to pay a dear
   price" or "to pay dearly."
   2. Non-American English, at least many varieties of it, uses "dear" in
   both senses. Thus, for instance, in Australian English you may say
   something like "Computers are very expensive" and "Computers are very
   dear." The latter sounds strange to most American.

How does this play out in related language varieties?

   - Scots:* dear** ** *both 'expensive' and 'dear'
   - West Frisian: *djoer* both 'expensive' and 'dear'


Nee, djoer kin yn it Westerlauwer Frysk allinnich op priis slaan.
Al bestiet der in, tinkt my, lienwurd "dierber".

Groetnis,

Henno
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 18 07:31:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:31:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.17 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.233143.0800.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>LL-L
Subject: LL-L

<read halfway down in English>

< my final posting>

Beste Ron en Allemaal,
In mijn bericht heb ik juist niet expliciet bedoeld te zeggen dat de taal
het grootste probleem is.
Nadat ik Ron zijn bericht las van 2011.11.16 (01) begreep ik dat mijn post
aan hem privé waarschijnlijk niet in zijn postbus is aangekomen. Daarom
reageer ik nog een allerlaatste keer via de List. Ook omdat er nogal
geraden wordt naar de bedoeling van mijn bericht wil ik nog eenmaal aan
jullie proberen duidelijk te maken wat ik wel heb bedoeld.

In het algemeen
Geloof me (zo je dat nog niet wist), dat Nederlanders - inclusief mij zelf
- een erg tolerant, misschien wel het meest tolerante volk van de hele
wereld zijn. Ik geef toe, er varandert momenteel wel het een en ander...;-)

Ik meen voldoende ervaring te hebben om te weten dat je erg moet oppassen
om over sommige onderwerpen zoals bijv. politiek, religie, geaardheid van
mensen en dat soort zaken te spreken op een open (of zelfs geredigeerd)
forum waar dat forum niet in is gespecialiseerd omdat je naar mijn
bescheiden mening geen discussie kunt voeren over dit soort onderwerpen in
slechts enkele korte zinnen. Er zullen in dat geval altijd leden zijn die
niet of verkeerd begrijpen, of worden begrepen...
De meeste oorlogen zijn begonnen door dit soort onbegrip, al helemaal als
er religie aan te pas komt, nietwaar?

Hier in mijn omgeving sta ik bij sommigen bekend als een soort van
beschouwelijk filosoof en vraag mij zelf (maar ook anderen) vaak een mening
af om daarmee tot een discussie te komen. Ik weet het, erg veel mensen
hebben moeite met het voeren een discussie op deze wijze...

Denk je eens in: je bent als geboren Nederlander, politieman in Amsterdam
en hebt samen met twee collega's van bijv. van Bonairse herkomst een werk
op te knappen. Dan vraag ik mij af: hoe zou jij je voelen als die twee
collega's telkens maar in het Papiaments tegen alkaar spreken (wat jij niet
verstaat)..?

Ja hoor, ik heb er alle begrip voor dat Ron nieuwkomers op de LL-List
verwelkomt in hun eigen taal. Geen probleem. Maar verder vraag ik mij af of
al die beste (religieuze) wensen over en weer van iedereen, wel diep uit
het hart komen. Is het veelal niet eerder een kwestie van gewoonte, zonder
diepere gedachte, of zelfs provocatie..?

Ik ben opgegroeid in de westerse wereld met katholieken, christelijken en
veel andere religies om me heen. En ja, ik heb de hele Koran, Bijbel en
KamaSutra (oeps!) gelezen/gespeld. Dat laatste boek vond ik het leukste,
hoe meer ik de Bijbel las (die ik zelfs helemaal vertaalde), hoe minder ik
geloof in het katholisisme, christendom en de meeste andere religies. Ik ga
je niet vertellen wat ik van de Koran vind maar ik zou niet graag leven met
de Sharia. Volgens mij is mijn vrouw meer waard dan een geit en ik
verplicht haar niet een boerka te dragen. Ik geloof in een individuele
vrijheid voor zowel mannen als vrouwen op gelijke voet en laat het laatste
oordeel graag over aan de/een Almachtige.

Conclusie
Wat ik met mijn bericht probeerde uit te vinden - na een periode van stilte
- hoe andere leden van deze LL-list denken over dat soort van vraagstukken
op deze list, die naar mijn mening een (Lowlands) taalforum is. En laat ik
nogmaals duidelijk zijn: ik houd niet van provocaties in korte zinnen
aangaande religie en dat soort zaken. Het voelt voor mij dus niet (meer)
goed aan om in relatie te staan met mensen die het blijkbaar juist leuk
vinden op die confronterende wijze te moeten provoceren.

Het spijt mij voor mijn aandeel in dit onbehouwen gedrag op deze LL-List.
Aanvaard mijn excuses daarvoor...

Ik ga niet meer in casu reageren op de harde woorden van Ingmar omdat ik
bang ben dat daar alleen nog maar meer onbegrip uit voort zal komen. Ik ga
mij nu afmelden... (Ik weet het zeker, ik zal jullie nog missen!)

Maar niet nadat ik Ron persoonlijk hartelijk wil bedanken voor het goede
werk wat hij hier doet...
Misschien weet niemand beter dan ik, hoeveel werk, tijd, toewijding en
energie het kost om de LL-List te starten en vooral ook vol te houden...

Ik heb dat zeer op prijs gesteld. Dankjewel Ron! Ik dank ook de leden van
de list met de vele antwoorden op mijn vragen over onze prachtige oude taal
en de goede tijd die ik met jullie had. Dank daarvoor!
Beste Ron, ik wens je werkelijk het allerbeste met je LL-List...
Mit een (alderlaeste) vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

PS: mocht iemand nog eens iets over onze prachtige taal willen weten waar
ik je misschien bij kan helpen dan mag je me natuurlijk altijd rechtstreeks
benaderen...

Dear Ron and All,
In my posting I just have not explicit meant to say that language was my
biggest problem.
According to Ron's reply in his posting of 2011.11.16 (01) I understood
that my posting to him in privat did not reach his mailbox. That's wy I
come to you all (for the very last time) this way and because of all the
guests around the reason of my indignation I'll try to make my point more
clear.

In general
Beleave me (as you already didn't know), the Dutch people - including
myself - are very, maybe even the most tolerant people in the world. Okay,
at this moment, times are changing a bit...;-)

I think that I have enough experience to know that you always must be aware
(or is it even attentive?) to talk about politics, religion, personal
nature of people a.s.o. on an open (and even on a moderated) forum that is
not specialized in that kind of subjects, because you can't have a
discussion about such topics in just some short paragraphs. There always
will be one or more member(s) who do(es) misunderstand...
Most wars have started because those misunderstandings, aspecially if there
is also religion connected, aren't they?

Here in our neighberhood by some people I'm known as a sort of a
philosopher and frequently ask myself (and others) for an opinion to come
to a real discussion. I know, lots and lots of people can't handle
conversation that way...

Imaging: you're an authentic Dutch policeman in Amsterdam and you have to
do a job with two colleges who came origin from - lets say - Bonaire. Half
the way down the two of them do constantly talk in Papiamentu (wich you do
not understand). Then, how would you feel..?

Yes, I can realy understand that our Ron sends a welcome in any language to
a new member. No problem with me. But furtheron, I'm wondering, do come all
those (i.c. religious) best wishes from the bottom of the haert? (not
meaning Ron's wishes.)

I've been grown up in the western world with katholics, cristians and lots
of other religious people around. Yes, I read the whole Koran, Bible and
KamaSutra (oops!). The lastone I'd like most, the more I read the Bible
(whom I translated in Stellingwarfs), the less I beleave in katholicism and
cristianity. I'm not gonna say what I think about the Koran but I don't
like to live by the rules of the Sharia. In my opinion my wife is more
worth then a goat and I don't let her walk in a bourka. I beleave in
individual freedom for man and woman and let the last judgment to the/any
Almighty.

The clou...
What I was trying to do in my posting, was to find out - after a period of
silence - how other members of this LL-list think about that sort of
questions on this list, wich is in my opinion is a (Lowlands)
language-forum. And let me be clear again: I don't like provocating
shortcuts about religions and things like that. For me, it just doesn't
feel good anylonger to be conected with people who seam to like (religious)
provocations in such a hard way.

I'm very sorry for my part in the misbehavior on this LL-List.
Accept my apologys (also for my poor writing in English!)...

I'll not reply on Ingmar's hard words. Any word again will be
misunderstood. I'll signof the LL-List now... (I'm quite sure, I'm gonna
miss you!)

But not after I thank you, Ron in person for the good job you're doing with
this LL-List...
Perhaps nobody knows better then I do, how much work, time, obligation and
energy it costs to keep 'm up...
I've really appreciated it. Thanks! I also thank the members with there
good suggestions about our lovely Lowland-language and where I had a good
time with. Thanks!
Dear Ron, I really wish you and your LL-L all the best...
With (very) last greetings from Stellingwarf (Frl, Nl.),
Piet Bult

PS: if you think I can be helpful in some special affairs among our
beautiful language than you may contact me directly, of course..

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 18 07:47:56 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:47:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (06) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.234756.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (03) [EN-FY]

At 03:31 PM 17/11/2011, Ron wrote:


   1. American English uses "dear" only in the first-mentioned sense, with
   idiomatic exceptions (i.e., supposedly archaisms) such as "to pay a dear
   price" or "to pay dearly."


My wife and I do not agree.  First of all, I suspect that the common root
meaning is "rare".  Secondly, it is only to be expected in the creolization
of English, that items that were "costly" would have been more affordable
to the upper classes which of course use far more words of French
derivation (such as "expensive").  Of course, since "expensive" is far more
common, people who have learned English as a second language are far less
likely to know this meaning.  Also, I do not understand why you would say
that "pay dearly" is idomatic, as opposed to a situation where "expensive"
would be inappropriate.  I think that we have not yet replaced the word
"dear" with another in cases where the cost is not financial.  Of course,
the Anglo-Saxon speaking lower classes were more likely to have to "pay
dearly with their lives" in the time of war.


   1. Non-American English, at least many varieties of it, uses "dear" in
   both senses. Thus, for instance, in Australian English you may sayÂ
   something like "Computers are very expensive" and "Computers are very
   dear." The latter sounds strange to most American.


I'm an American and I don't find it strange, just infrequent.

Ed Alexander, Ontario

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Semantics"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

I've long been intrigued by the semantic development of the word complex
"dear" within the Germanic languages, and I wonder if you have any
information to add.

"Dear" and its relatives can mean the following:

   1. highly valued (dear to one's heart)
   2. expensive (having a high price)

Clearly, the common denominator is "valuable" or "valued."

In the English-speaking world there appears to be a split:

   1. American English uses "dear" only in the first-mentioned sense, with
   idiomatic exceptions (i.e., supposedly archaisms) such as "to pay a dear
   price" or "to pay dearly."
   2. Non-American English, at least many varieties of it, uses "dear" in
   both senses. Thus, for instance, in Australian English you may say
   something like "Computers are very expensive" and "Computers are very
   dear." The latter sounds strange to most American.


Brabantish knows "duur/dier" exclusively as a word meaning "expensive"
(geographical distribution roughly follows the pattern of vier/vuur ~
fire/Feuer). Not as a word meaning something like "caro" in Italian. By the
way, "dierbaar" is totally "school language", it's no part whatsoever of
the vernacular. More in general, any word having the suffix "baar" is not a
traditional Brabantish word, it's a germanism.

Could it be that the literal meaning of "dear" already got pushed away by
"expensive" in English during Anglo-Norman times? In uptown language that
is...in lower echelons the original meaning may have been preserved longer.

"Dear", as in "Dear Henry", has no cognate in Brabantish. "Lieve" is
predominantly used when an amorous relationship exists between the two
(contrasting with Saxon I believe). On a general level, as far as I know,
only "Beste ..." will do.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Thanks, everyone.

Here's something for you to sink your teeth into:

In Scots, *lief* [li(ː)f] ~ [li(ː)v...] means 'dear', 'beloved', thus
corresponding to what in Dutch is *lief* [li(ː)f] ~ [li(ː)v...] and in Low
Saxon is *leef* ... [lɛɪf] ~ [lɛɪv...] ~ [laɪf] ~ [laɪv...].

Dutch ("Flemish") influence in Scotland?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]

Hallo "dear" Lowlanners.

Vörweg hier ein Riemel von Gerda Uhthoff 2.8.1896-21.10.1988
(Wi kennten uns.)

*PLANT' HELLE BLAUMEN
*
Glück in de Leiw, dat singt von sülben, -
wenn't Hart tau vull is, juucht de Mund,
man trurig Leiw swiggt in sik rinner,
ward nachtens blot in Tranen kund.

Dor möten anner denn von singen,
de Dichterslüüd, dat olle Leed
von de verlaten Leiw up Ierden,
de düster Blaum in't bunte Beet.

Plant' helle Blaumen in den Goren
all von jug Leiw, wenn't jichtens geiht,
de düstern maken trurig Harten; -
wo schöön is't doch, wenn'n Glück utseiht*!  * aussäen

*leif, *-ee-, flekt. -*w* Adj. und Adv, lieb
*1. *erfreulich, angenehm: 'Dat sy ju allen lef edder leyt' Re.
Osterspiele; 'it wer ock dem Rade leff edder leit' (Rostock; dem
Lebensmüden *is 't *(das Sterben) *eenen Dag so leef as den annern; dat
Leiwst un dat Best updragen *zur Mahlzeit; adverbial gern: *wo leif sei dat
nehm! *(1887)HARed;  *moegen Sei dat nich so lif liden? (1889) *SCHÖ/Schlagsd.;
bes. wie hd. für fehlende Steigerung von gern im Kompar. und Superl.:
'Kumpt hir jemant here varen, Deme wil ik alzo möten; He mochte sik lever
laten des kynkhostes böten' Red. Ost.; 'He wolde lever syn, dar ein
Nachmeisters Knecht Ein Span vul dünne Supp (Jauche) up sinen  LAUR (Johann
Lauremberg); *he süht eenen lever sinken as fleeten *(schwimmen); *hei süht
ein leiwer gahn as kamen; leiwer tweimal mit Gemack as einmal mit gebrack *vom
geladenen Wagen (1887); *leiwer ahn Abendbrot tau Bedd' gahn as mit
Schulden upstahn; leewer  'n Magen verrenken as 'n Wirt wat schenken.
**2. *im Sinne der Neigung bes. zum andern Geschlecht; so *leif hebben *lieben;
'nademe . . . de Welt . . . dat ere Leeff hefft'; *de Uhl heft eer Uelhken
so leev, aß de Duve er Düveken; wenn . . . Nahwers Kinner sick leiw hewwen *
F.Reut;
*leef hebben *küssen; so auch in der Wechselrede von Mutter und
Tochter: *Herrjemine,
wat deit he di? Hett he di ok leef? Wat wull he nich, wat schull he nich!
Wenn 't dor man  noch bi blew! HA/Red; **ironisch*: *he is 'n Soehn, oewer
ok 'n leewen! - seem. sick leewen Mann maken (*sich beliebt ..Huh, Programm
abgestürzt.., gerettet) also (sich beliebt machen, sich einschmeicheln beim
Kapitän); *substantivisch *in der Anrede: *min Leiwen*; im Sprw.: *dei wat
Leiws hett, dei geiht  'e nah, un de wat Scheiws hett, de smitt ' e nah; *im
*Superlativ:
**Leiwste *Liebste; *formelhaft *häufig als Attribut bei Substantiven
mannigfacher Art wie: *dei leiw Gott, dat leiw Brot, dat leiw Veih, dei
leiw Sünn, dei leiw' Ierd', dei leiwe Lust, männigein leiwen Dag, dei leiwe
lange Nacht; *oft *verhüllend*: *dat leiwe *(kümmerliche bißchen) *Läben;
dat leiw Wäder *(Unwetter, Gewitter); *min leiwe *(große) *Not; vör luter
leiwe *(großer) *Angst; dat leiwe *(schlimme) *Kuurnköpen; dat leiw *(böse)
*Leiden; so väl leiwe *(harte) *Släg'; *Als* Ausruf des Bedauerns oder der
Verwunderung: **du leiwe Tit.
**3. *Dim.: 'min Lefken' (mein Liebchen; ebenso im Tanzlied *Gos up de Däl:
mit min Leewken. **Im Tiergespräch: **Herrjes', min Leefken! **auch  hd.: *für
die Sonne *seggen weck Klärchen, weck Liebchen; **Koseform*: Leiwing.
Zss.: *hart-, unleif; förleif. *Mnd. *lêf.
*Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert
* **
*Noch 'n Riemel von Gerda Uhthoff:

*    LÄWENSLANG*

Verlaten Leiw, de glööwt,
dat all's sik wedder wend',

verlaten Leiw, de tööwt un tööwt,
dat all's in'n Gauden end'. -

Un seggst du, dat s' nich glöwen sall,
denn kickt s' di an so bang,

un seggst du, dat s' nich töwen sall,
denn flustert s': "Läwenslang."

So, dat wier mal *dit *un *dat *von leiw/leew *Leiw/Leew*

Un mien Gräuten is ok *leiw *meint.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 18 19:31:21 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:31:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.18 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.NOV.2011.113121.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (06) [EN-NDS]

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics"

[...]

Brabantish knows "duur/dier" exclusively as a word meaning "expensive"
(geographical distribution roughly follows the pattern of vier/vuur ~
fire/Feuer). Not as a word meaning something like "caro" in Italian. By the
way, "dierbaar" is totally "school language", it's no part whatsoever of
the vernacular. More in general, any word having the suffix "baar" is not a
traditional Brabantish word, it's a germanism.

Could it be that the literal meaning of "dear" already got pushed away by
"expensive" in English during Anglo-Norman times? In uptown language that
is...in lower echelons the original meaning may have been preserved longer.

"Dear", as in "Dear Henry", has no cognate in Brabantish. "Lieve" is
predominantly used when an amorous relationship exists between the two
(contrasting with Saxon I believe). On a general level, as far as I know,
only "Beste ..." will do.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

Hi,

Now I get confused; and so it has to be.

In dutch [of the north] we have 'dierbaar' and I've never read 'duurbaar'.
Because of 'dier' one would assume that 'dierbaar' came from the dutch in
the south [e.g. imported by the brabantish/flamish people who came to
Holland some centuries ago].

I would almost suspect that 'dierbaar' came in use by writings [i.e. books
that were widely read].

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (06) [EN-NDS]

Hallo, ick bün all wedder dor.

Nu kam ick noch up (*lieb) teuer.
*Dor kann ick nich väl anbeiden, liekers künn dat noch sien Bedüden hebben.

Bi Perfesser Voßlo heff ick man blot dit funn'n: as Adv.:'ein duerbar
werdich wordt'.

Neues hochdeutsch-plattdeutsches  Wörterbuch von Renate Herrmann-Winter: *
teuer** düer,
**1. *einen hohen Preis habend *Syn **nich to betahlen *usw..
*2. *sehr geschätzt, lieb, wert, *Syn leif sin.

*Tschä, dat heff ick nich dacht, ok up Platt kannst wat mit anfangen. Un
woans künn man dat so schriewen: *"Mien leif sin Fründ" ? *Begäng is *leif
sin *hier nich.
*
*DUDEN 7: *teuer: *Die Herkunft des *altgerm. *Adjektivs (*mhd. *tiure, *ahd.
*tiuri, *niederl. *duur, *engl. *dear [s. Darling], *schwed. *dyr) ist
unbekannt. Zu 'teuer' gehören die unter  *dauern *"leid tun"  Wörter.
Schon in den älteren Sprachzuständen wurde es in den heutigen Bedeutungen
"lieb", wert, hochgeschätzt; viel kostend" gebraucht. Abl.: *Teuerung
*"Preisanstieg"
*(spätmhd. *tiurung, ursprünglich nur "Preis"); *verteuern *(*mhd. *
vertiuren).
Hinweis auf *beteuern.*
*
*Un nu gah ick in de Kœk, denn mien Middagäten "Gräuns un Ketüffels/Tüften"
is mi wat *leif un düer.

*Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 18 21:20:20 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:20:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.18 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.NOV.2011.132020.0800.>

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From:   Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.
roger.thijs at euro-support.be<roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Semantics
> Dear Lowlanders,
> I've long been intrigued by the semantic development of the word complex
"dear" within the Germanic languages, and I wonder if you have any
information to add.

In my West-Limburgish “duur” can mean:
- expensive
- a bull (Dutch: stier)


For animal (in Dutch “dier”) we use “bès” (cf. Dutch “beest”)

In French we have cher for dear in both senses:

cher ami: dear friend

cher: expensive.

Regards,
Roger

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 19 19:49:13 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:49:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.19 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
 <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.18 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Dear Lowlanders,

as Hanne points out, in German the words "teuer" and "lieb" form a sort of
parallel. I think the meaning "lieb, wert, hochgeschätzt" might have been
first, and later the meaning "viel kostend" has been added as a
consequence, when money came into consideration. (However, there are sorts
of people for whom the logic goes the opposite way; first they think of
money, and then they love what they have paid for dearly...)

What I wish to add is only this: There is a similar parallel between "Lob"
and "Preis". "Preis" must have been identical with "Lob" at first, and when
money came into consideration, the meaning of one of the words shifted to
"what you have to pay" (because it is so well worth its "Lob"). (Of course
for the aforementioned perverse sort of people maybe the money comes first
again, the the Lob.) That shift of meaning can't be very old; as one of the
few Germans familiar with the Evangelisches Kirchengesangbuch I know dozens
of hymns, where "Lob und Preis" are offered to god, ...

O wär ich da, o stünd ich schon
du reicher Gott, vor Deinem Thron
und trüge meine Palmen!
so wollt ich nach der Engel Weis’
erhöhen Deines Namens Preis
mit tausend schönen Psalmen.

Text from 1653. And to christmas we sing:

Heut' schließt er wieder auf das Tor
zum schönen Paradeis;
der Cherub steht nicht mehr davor,
Gott sei Lob, Ehr und Preis.

The latter Text 1560. -- The like thing happened to "billig", which meant
"angemessen" at first, and only later changed to *cheap*. In combinations
it still has its old meaning ("Das ist recht und billig", etwas billigen,
missbilligen usw.).

What I like about this: All the words concerning money (in their today
meaning) have their roots in "true values" and were only borrowed out by
the financial sort of things. Today we are aware of a strong difference
between what in german is called Realwirtschaft and the so-called
Finanzwirtschaft (which is the thing that, you know, in these last 3 years
has been very much... ahem...). "Oh, oh," they say, "bisher betrifft die
Krise ja nur die Finanzwirtschaft, aber wenn sie auf die Realwirtschaft
durchschlägt...!" (Which in Germany it still doesn't, while in other
countries it does.) And Language is purely Realwirtschaft! Real values. --
Are there any words in any lowlands language that have their origin in
Finanzwirtschaft, i.e. that were meant for money and money only?

Hartlich!

Marlou


From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (06) [EN-NDS]

Hallo, ick bün all wedder dor.

Nu kam ick noch up (*lieb) teuer.*
Dor kann ick nich väl anbeiden, liekers künn dat noch sien Bedüden hebben.

Bi Perfesser Voßlo heff ick man blot dit funn'n: as Adv.:'ein duerbar
werdich wordt'.

Neues hochdeutsch-plattdeutsches  Wörterbuch von Renate Herrmann-Winter: *
teuer** düer,*
*1. *einen hohen Preis habend *Syn **nich to betahlen *usw..
*2. *sehr geschätzt, lieb, wert, *Syn leif sin.*

Tschä, dat heff ick nich dacht, ok up Platt kannst wat mit anfangen. Un
woans künn man dat so schriewen: *"Mien leif sin Fründ" ? *Begäng is *leif
sin *hier nich.

DUDEN 7: *teuer: *Die Herkunft des *altgerm. *Adjektivs (*mhd. *tiure, *ahd.
*tiuri, *niederl. *duur, *engl. *dear [s. Darling], *schwed. *dyr) ist
unbekannt. Zu 'teuer' gehören die unter  *dauern *"leid tun"  Wörter.
Schon in den älteren Sprachzuständen wurde es in den heutigen Bedeutungen
"lieb", wert, hochgeschätzt; viel kostend" gebraucht. Abl.: *Teuerung
*"Preisanstieg"
*(spätmhd. *tiurung, ursprünglich nur "Preis"); *verteuern *(*mhd. *
vertiuren).
Hinweis auf *beteuern.*

Un nu gah ick in de Kœk, denn mien Middagäten "Gräuns un Ketüffels/Tüften"
is mi wat *leif un düer.*

Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 20 22:40:58 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:40:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.20.NOV.2011.144058.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 20 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer mrdreyer at lantic.net
 <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.19 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Dear Marlou, Ron & All:

Subject: LL-L "Semantics"

Further to the pairs '"teuer" & "lieb", "dier" & "lief" (Afrikaans - I see
a drift here) "dear" & "love".

I have difficulty with the word 'dear'*=*'valuable' being originally
associated with 'deer'='animal'.
The Afrikaans for valuable is 'duur', & for animal is 'dier'. In this
context the concept 'dierbaar' is I think the only term in the Taal
associated with an item that is cherished but *not* a negotiable commodity.
It is closer to the English 'darling'. The Old English 'Deor' was not a
darling but a fugitive in hiding: Reference, the poem "Deor"

The Migratory Period Rune 'Feoh' with the 'F' value refers to 'livestock'
on the one hand & 'fee' on the other; Afrikaans has 'vee' for the first &
'foei' for the second. This is a sensible & inevitable association going
right back to the Indo-Germanic, right? Here is a traceable pair for
Afrikaans!

As for "Lob" & "Preis": English "praise" & "prize" (now this is getting
interesting) with which I associate with Afrikaans "lof" & "prys", my
Kritzinger, Steyn, Schoonees & Cronje (Afrikaanse Woordeboek. Vertalend,
Afrikaans : Engels) has this to offer. 'Lof' = praise, eulogy,
commendation, laudation. 'Prys' = price, value, cost, charge, award,
premium, prize, praise &c.

The first, 'lof', may be a tribute but it is not a commodity. The second,
'prys', may be, but is it a synonym altogether? Not inevitably.

We still offer Lof & Prys to God.

Hearty greetings all round!
Hartlike groete alom!

Yrs,
Mark.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 21 03:07:33 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:07:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.20.NOV.2011.190733.0800.>

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From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca
 <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20 (01) [EN]

At 05:40 PM 20/11/2011, Mark or Ruth wrote:

I have difficulty with the word 'dear'*=*'valuable' being originally
associated with 'deer'='animal'.


I submit that in fact they were not associated originally, and come from
separate IE roots.

>From the Online Etymological Dictionary:

*DEER*  O.E. deor "animal, beast," from P.Gmc. *deuzam, the general
Germanic word for "animal" (as opposed to man), but often restricted to
"wild animal" (cf. O.Fris. diar, Du. dier, O.N. dyr, O.H.G. tior, Ger. Tier
"animal," Goth. dius "wild animal," also cf.
reindeer<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=reindeer&allowed_in_frame=0>),
from PIE *dheusom "creature that breathes," from *dheu- (1) "cloud, breath"
(cf. Lith. dusti "gasp," dvesti "gasp, perish;" O.C.S. dychati "breathe;"
cf. L. animal from anima "breath"), from base *dheu-. Sense specialization
to a specific animal began in O.E. (usual O.E. for what we now call a deer
was heorot; see
hart<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hart&allowed_in_frame=0>),
common by 15c., now complete. Probably via hunting, deer being the favorite
animal of the chase (cf. Skt. mrga- "wild animal," used especially for
"deer"). Deer-lick is first attested 1778, in an American context.

*DEAR *O.E. deore "precious, valuable, costly, loved, beloved," from P.Gmc.
*deurjaz (cf. O.S. diuri, O.N. dyrr, O.Fris. diore, M.Du. dure, Du. duur,
O.H.G. tiuri, Ger. teuer), ultimate origin unknown. Used interjectorily
since 1690s. As a polite introductory word to letters, it is attested from
mid-15c. As a noun, from late 14c., perhaps short for dear one, etc.

Ed Alexander, on Manitoulin Island, where the annual deer hunt starts on
Monday.

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
  Subject: LL-L "Semantics"

Beste Mark,

You wrote:

 As for "Lob" & "Preis": English "praise" & "prize" (now this is getting
interesting) with which I associate with Afrikaans "lof" & "prys", my
Kritzinger, Steyn, Schoonees & Cronje (Afrikaanse Woordeboek. Vertalend,
Afrikaans : Engels) has this to offer. 'Lof' = praise, eulogy,
commendation, laudation. 'Prys' = price, value, cost, charge, award,
premium, prize, praise &c.

The first, 'lof', may be a tribute but it is not a commodity. The second,
'prys', may be, but is it a synonym altogether? Not inevitably.

We still offer Lof & Prys to God.


Or to merchandise.

As is the case in the Brabantish expression: "loven en bieden" (loven en
bieëen ~ love and bid). It's an old one (attested in 1380 already), used to
describe the haggling between seller and byer. A seller will usually praise
his ware (loven is not coincidentally cognate with "to love" (E)), while
the potential byer may make an offer (a bid).

I have a feeling that words like "cheap", "love", "praise" and "dear" were
rather market-terms, before they were religiously/morally reinterpreted.

"Free" on the other hand looks like a more original word-complex that was
connected with what we label "love" these days. Note:

   - vrijen (D): to make love
   - friend (E): ami-go (Spanish)
   - fri: Old Saxon for "woman"
   - Frieden (G): peace
   - Freyja: goddess of love

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 22 03:35:24 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:35:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.NOV.2011.193524.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 20 November 2011 - Volume 03
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20. (02) [EN]

Hallo Lowlanners.

Dat is je snaaksch. Fründ Ed Alexaner is nu von  Dear up Deer kamen.
Ja, wenn dat so is, kann ick je noch wat tau un oewer *DEER **(Tier) *
vermellen.

*Diert,* Dier, Deir, ä. Deert, Pl. *Deerte, Dierte, Direr, Deirer, -s *n.
Tier, das wilde , freilebende Tier im Gegensatz zu den zahmen oder
Haustieren: animal 'ein Deerte'; 'so ein wunderlik derte' (1563);
'unvornufftige  Deerte'; 'de wilden Deerte'; 'von einem schlimmen Deert';
'alle Deerde, all dat Veh' (1726); für dat Vieh vermeidet der Volksmund die
Bezeichnung *Diert *nach Möglichkeit; wenn ein Badegast einen Fisch mit *Diert
*bezeichnet, erhält er die abweisende Antwort: *Deirer warden hier nich
fungen; *nur im Zorn sowie im Segen und Volksreim wird das Wort zuweilen
auch von Haustieren gebraucht: *dat oll Diert *von einer Kuh, die beim
Melken nicht stehen will;* wo willt Derers ji Deirers hen! *zu Schafen, die
sich von der Herde absondern; *dat Diert hett sick verfungen** *im Segen
gegen die Kolik; junge Gössel, die man erstmalig auf die Weide bringt,
werden durch folgenden Spruch vor Raubzeug geschützt: *Will Dierer, hier
bring' ick juch tamm Dierer, Dor sœlt ji nich ihrer von äten, Ihrer Mudder
Maria ehr Kind hett vergäten; de lütten Deirer *junge Enten; *Hotthö, min
lütt Pierten, Hoppeda, min lütt Dierten; de fleigen Dierten *Vögel; *dat
wieren Dierer von derer Grött *sehr große Insekten; *dor gahn väl Deirer
ümher *(Läuse im Rätsel); *en unvernünftig Dird *(Schimmel)*; *bildl. von
großer Armut: *hier hett dat arm Diert jung't; hier is nicks los, hier
hett'n arm Diert jung't, hett twölw krägen; *übertr. von Menschen, die man
nicht alle Tage sieht, z.B. hochgestellte Persönlichkeiten: *se willen sonn
Diert *(den Großherzog) *ok eens seihn; Wunnerdiert; grote
Dierter*(angesehene Personen);
*de Dierer *Studenten; vgl. *Dussel-, Nussel-, Undiert;** *von leblosen
Dingen: *wat hebben de Deirer för Dwasknüppel *sagte  ein Bauernjunge beim
Anblick von Segelschiffen mit großen Rahen; *dat olle Diert *(Hose); *dee
hebben sick noch sonn Deirers upgrübelt *Reime und Schwänke. FN.
(Flurnamen): *Dierbrauk, -goorden-, -horst, -koppel. *Mnd. *dêrt, dêr; *Diertüg
n. das Vieh.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

IDIOM: *Jedem Tierchen sein Pläsierchen
             **To each his/her own.*
*
*Un ick hüpp nu as ne Flöh (Floh) in't Bedd.

Hartlich.

Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Moin, Hanne!

Bi mi un in 'n good Deel annere Dialekten is de Mehrtallform "Deerten" or
"Dierten".

Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.:
Un ick hüpp nu as ne Flöh (Floh) in't Bedd.

'n Flöh (*vlooi*, *Floh*, *flee*) is bẹter as as 'n Wandluus (*wandluis, **
Wanze*, *bedbug*). (Wandlüs' stinkt daar ja ook noch to!)


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 22 03:39:04 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:39:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.20. (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.NOV.2011.193904.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 20 November 2011 - Volume 04
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: event

An all' Lowlanners.

Wat je noch weiten möt'.

 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturpreis_des_Landes_Mecklenburg_Vorpommern

Die Fritz Reuter Gesellschaft wurde heute mit dieser Auszeichnung geehrt.
Der Präsident der FRG Prof. Dr. Dr. Jürgen Grote* nahm die Auszeichnung
entgegen. (Un gistern hebben wi* bi Café Prag noch ne schöön Tass' Kaffe
drunken un 'n Strämel vertellt.  J.G. is ein Sweriner un sien Mudding wier
eins mien Doktersch.)


Ick freu mi för de FRG.

Hanne

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: event

Da ich die Webseite immer Buchstabe für Buchstabe abschreiben muß, ist mir
ein Fehler unterlaufen. Nun ist alles OK.
Kann mir einer mal den Tipp geben, wie man direkt die Anschrift http usw.
in ein Schreiben übertragen kann?

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 22 18:36:31 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:36:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.22 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.NOV.2011.103631.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 22 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From:  Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong
Dutchmatters at comcast.net<roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.20. (04) [DE-NDS]

Liebe Hanne

Das ist  gar nicht schwierig. Man soll zuerst die Botschaft “durchsenden”
oder  “beantworten. Auf das Schirm kan man dann die Anschrift abschreiben
und in eine andere Botschaft aufkleben.



Good luck!

Jacqueline,
Seattle VS

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 22 23:53:12 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:53:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.22. (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.NOV.2011.155312.0800.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.
roger.thijs at euro-support.be<Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.18 (02) [EN]

Translations may leave semantic differences unresolved.
See picture from the “avenue Ten Horen” – “Ten Horen laan” (zum Horn Allee)
in the bilingual “Uccle” – “Ukkel”, one of the 19 municipalities of the
Brussels capital region.
It helps understanding why the Dutch and French speakers have it so
difficult to find oneother.

Regards,
Roger


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 23 19:47:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:47:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.23 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.114705.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.22 (01) [DE]

Liebe Jacqueline,

vielen vielen Dank für deine Hilfe, ich habe mich sehr gefreut. *Aber *ich
habe leider Probleme. Ich werde weiter Test-Übungen anwenden. Eigentlich
bin ich gar nicht so *doemlich *(dumm).
Ich habe seit einiger Zeit Windows 7 mit  Mozilla Thunderbird und komme
damit auch klar.

Immer wenn ich die Sache angehe, kommt mir in die Quere:
 "Babylon Nachricht: Diese Babylon Version ist abgelaufen." Warum
eigentlich...?) Ich kriege das schon hin...

Herzliche Grüße und nochmals DANK!

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 23 19:48:04 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:48:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.23 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.114804.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.22 (01) [DE]

Liebe Jacqueline,

vielen vielen Dank für deine Hilfe, ich habe mich sehr gefreut. *Aber *ich
habe leider Probleme. Ich werde weiter Test-Übungen anwenden. Eigentlich
bin ich gar nicht so *doemlich *(dumm).
Ich habe seit einiger Zeit Windows 7 mit  Mozilla Thunderbird und komme
damit auch klar.

Immer wenn ich die Sache angehe, kommt mir in die Quere:
 "Babylon Nachricht: Diese Babylon Version ist abgelaufen." Warum
eigentlich...?) Ich kriege das schon hin...

Herzliche Grüße und nochmals DANK!

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 23 19:49:52 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:49:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2011.11.23 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.114952.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 23 November 2011 - Volume 02
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From: Henry Pijffers henry.pijffers at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.22. (02) [EN]

Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> See picture from the “avenue Ten Horen” – “Ten Horen laan” (zum Horn
Allee)
> in the bilingual “Uccle” – “Ukkel”, one of the 19 municipalities of the
> Brussels capital region.
>
Hey, the French sign is bigger. This calls for a good riot!

cheers,
Henry
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 00:46:02 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 16:46:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2011.11.23 (03) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.164602.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 23 November 2011 - Volume 03
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong
Dutchmatters at comcast.net<henry.pijffers at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.23 (01) [DE]

Re: Babylon Nachricht.

Liebe Hanne,

Leider kann ich dir damit nicht helfen. Ich habe überhaupt nie gewusst dat
die Babylonier schon computers hatten.

Sterkte met het probleem!
Jacqueline
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 00:48:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 16:48:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2011.11.23 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.164838.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 23 November 2011 - Volume 04
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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Henry,

You wrote:

Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> See picture from the “avenue Ten Horen” – “Ten Horen laan” (zum Horn
Allee)
> in the bilingual “Uccle” – “Ukkel”, one of the 19 municipalities of the
> Brussels capital region.
>
Hey, the French sign is bigger.


Of course...this is a prank set up by the Dutch community ;=) We
bilinguals, all know you have to turn to the right, but since most of the
French have absolutely no clue what "Wegomlegging" means they will surely
follow the bigger (French) signpost. This is our way to minimize traffic
jams ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

PS: Even in unilingual territory, at a junction, you can sometimes see a
sign pointing to the left: Brussel, 15 km, and another pointing to the
right, Brussel, 17 km. No problem for locals...

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 01:16:45 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 17:16:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.171645.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

Here in the Seattle area, we had what my Australian friends would call "a
real stinker of a day." Though while they tend to refer to particularly hot
weather, I am referring to a dark, depressing day of constant rain ...
November at its worst (short of snow in a hilly area like this).

I may have mentioned the following some years ago, but I am sure it can
stand repeating.

In many Low Saxon dialects, this type of light, steady rain (and the
accompanying low light conditions) are known as (masculine)
*Druus*[dru:s], and the derived adjective/adverb is
*drusig* ['dru:zɪç].

Now, this reminds me of English "drowsy" and the Scots verb *drouse* (*
droose* [dru:z] 'to be drowsy'), considering also that, like English
"drowsy" and Scots *drouse*, the Low Saxon words can refer to a state of
sleepiness as well. Are we talking about a coincidence or about a
relationship? Are there other Lowlands pieces of the puzzle?

Regards, and to all Lowlanders in and from the United States a wonderful
and heartwarming Thanksgiving!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 21:25:19 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 13:25:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.24.NOV.2011.132519.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 24 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

In many Low Saxon dialects, this type of light, steady rain (and the
accompanying low light conditions) are known as (masculine)
*Druus*[dru:s], and the derived adjective/adverb is
*drusig* ['dru:zɪç].


I think the original meaning of [dru:s] may have been "murk" (compare Old
English "drusan" to sink, and "to drowse"), evolving to:

   - [dru:s]: nickname for the devil (the dark one, in many dialects)
   - [dru:s]: sediment, dark sludgy substance in a liquid, also a horse
   disease (cf. droesem in Dutch)
   - [dru:s]: as in toponym Droeshout and surname Droesbeke (dark, marshy
   wood and muddy, slow running brook)
   - [dru:s]: nickname for a big, clumsy, slow-witted fellow


Not too sure English "drizzle" is related btw. Seems like a substrate word,
together with Dutch "dras".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer mrdreyer at lantic.net
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

Dear Ron:
Subject: LL-L Etymology

We've started with that now on the Highveld. Fine weather, for ducks. S
Africans can get really morbid when they don't see the Sun.
By the way; I think you'll get more meat out of the English term 'drizzle'
by which they mean light rain of long duration. A brief burst of the same
would rate 'shower'. My Yiddish ear says this has to be a *little* 'drizz'
- whatever that izz.

Reciprocations to you, Ron & all you Americans, eat a fat slice of pecan
pie for me!

All Yrs,
Mark

You wrote:
...I am referring to a dark, depressing day of constant rain ... November
at its worst (short of snow in a hilly area like this).

I may have mentioned the following some years ago, but I am sure it can
stand repeating.

In many Low Saxon dialects, this type of light, steady rain (and the
accompanying low light conditions) are known as (masculine)
*Druus*[dru:s], and the derived adjective/adverb is
*drusig* ['dru:zɪç].

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

That sort of rain is called "drizzle" in England (and probably other UK
countries too).  Online Etymological dictionary dates it to 1540s, probably
from OE *dreosan*, to fall.  Related to PIE **dhreu,* related to "drip".

Paul.

PS: when it is really fine rain, we call it "mizzle", combining "drizzle"
with "mist".

----------

From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

At 08:16 PM 23/11/2011, Ron wrote:

In many Low Saxon dialects, this type of light, steady rain (and the
accompanying low light conditions) are known as (masculine)
*Druus*[dru:s], and the derived adjective/adverb is
*drusig* ['dru:zɪç].

Now, this reminds me of English "drowsy" and the Scots verb *drouse* (*
droose* [dru:z] 'to be drowsy'), considering also that, like English
"drowsy" and Scots *drouse*, the Low Saxon words can refer to a state of
sleepiness as well. Are we talking about a coincidence or about a
relationship? Are there other Lowlands pieces of the puzzle?


You forgot "drizzle."  It looks like drowsy comes from a different root
than *drusig*.

Ed Alexander

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
   Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

Hello there ‘stadgenoot’

A Dutch friend came to visit me this afternoon and she said, while we were
negotiating the puddles in the driveway,  “en als dit thuis was geweest,
zou ik ook nog op de fiets zijn gekomen”!! Brrrrr

Which brings me back to your etymological question.

Dutch knows ‘druisen’ which my dictionary tells me is ‘een aanhoudend maar
ongelijkmatig, verward, vrij sterk geluid voortbrengen. I think that makes
meterological sense today. And then there are of course druilen en druipen
(respectively not showing any energy and to drip). Does that remind you of
something??

Keep dry!
Jacqueline BdJ

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

Thanks for all the responses.



Now that you have mentioned it I am convinced that *drizzle* is related,
must have come from **drysel* ['dry:zl] (< /druz+el-/, diminutive
frequentive, umlauted).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



My keyboard just broke, and the stores are closed for the holiday … It is
horrendous working around that.

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 21:33:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 13:33:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.11.24 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.24.NOV.2011.133305.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" 2011.11.24 [EN]

According to the Dutch linguistic magazine Onze Taal, Brabantish is the
most sexy accent of the Netherlands:

http://www.onzetaal.nl/nieuws/brabants-meest-sexy-accent-van-nederland

Ingmar

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 26 00:17:25 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:17:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.25 [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.NOV.2011.161725.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 25 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Paul,

You mentioned "to mizzle", when light rain is falling. The same word exists
in Dutch "miezelen/miezeren" and Low German "miseln". Note Dutch dialect
"miegelen", to urinate.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Wim wkv at home.nl
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.24 (01) [EN]

>From wim verdoold

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle nl



Hi!



Droes   in the futhark ( Rune Alphabeth) the th is called  thurs   ( giant )



I think that is the same word again



Moin!


Wim

----------

From: list at marcusbuck.org
   Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.24 (01) [EN]

From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk

>  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]
>
> That sort of rain is called "drizzle" in England (and probably other UK
> countries too).  Online Etymological dictionary dates it to 1540s, probably
> from OE *dreosan*, to fall.  Related to PIE **dhreu,* related to "drip".
>
> Paul.
>
> PS: when it is really fine rain, we call it "mizzle", combining "drizzle"
> with "mist".
>

Is it really a portmanteau or perhaps an old word? Low Saxon has "musseln"
for fine rain (it also means dropping powder-like or grainy substances:
"Mussel nich so mit dat Stroh, ik heff jüst feegt." Do not drop any straw,
I just swept.).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

Hallo all' Lowlanners,
ick hadd stramm tau daun un kann ierst hüt , wat nu kümmt, vermellen:

*Regen, Regen drus'

*Regen, Regen* drus',*
wi sitt hier warm in Huus'!
De Vageln sitt in Bom to kurn,
de Köh, dee staht an' Wall to schurn:
Regen, Regen *drus'*,
wi sitt hier warm in Huus'!

1. Vers
Text: Klaus Groth
Hier heit *drus' *: *'rieseln'.*

*Bim-bam-beier!

*2. Vers:
Bim-bam-Jünging,
min oll lütt Lusepünging,
min oll lütt Snickermus,
din Og is blag, din Poll is krus -
bim-bam, nu ligg un *drus'*!

Text: John Brinckman

Hier hett *drus' *dat Bedüden von *schläfrig*.
 Übrigens, eine schöne Lautmalerei.
*
**drus' *hett so tau seggen twei Bedüden.

Perfesser Voßlo:
*drus' *(*drüs), *druss verschlafen, mürrisch:* dru's; drus utseihn; denn
wäs' nich so drus, Dirn, Un nimm nicks krumm! - As sonn Kaninken drus un
fram; de Windhunn' sleken so drus; wo drus un bös he utseg; bün ick drus,
so sall ick schmeicheln; drus *still, launisch, verdrossen;
*druss laten *traurig aussehen.
Drus' m. Halbschlaf; *De Wind dee weiht, De Hahn dee kreiht, De Köster
liggt in 'n Drus'; oll Unkel Sprein Sitt still vör sick as in den Druss' *;
*oll Drus' *Langschläfer; *in 'n Drus' stahn* ungewiß sein;  *dat Weder
steiht so im Druse ;  Winterdrus'.  *Aberglaube: *ut den Drus' is hei nich
ruttaubringen;  Drus' krigen  *Schläge erhalten - Drus'drom m. Schelte für
einen schlafmützigen Menschen -  *drusen  *in leichten Schlummer fallen,
Einnicken, schlummern;  -
*drusig *schläfrig, verdrossen;  *em ward all so drusig* er wird schlafmüde.
Drus'jahn m. schläfriger, langsamer Mensch; Druskopp m. Dummkopf;
Drusmichel m. wie Drusjahn; Drusmul n. sauertöpfischer Mensch; Druspeter m.
wie -jahn.
*Drussel *(ss stimmhaft) m. Halbschlaf, leichter Schlummer; *en lütten
Drussel hollen *(ein Nickerchen machen); Drusselbücks f. langsamer,
schläfriger Mensch; *drusseln *ein wenig einnicken, im halben Schlummer
sein *hei drusselt so vör sick hen*; Zss.: *inoewerdrusseln*;  gruseln im
Märchen von dem, der das Fürchten lernen wollte: *wenn ick wüsst, wat
drusseln wir. **Drusseltit *f. Schlummerzeit; *Drüssing *m. kleiner Ärger,
Verdruß.
 * *Anmerkung von mir: ick heff mi hier nich vertippt, is all'ns echt
(original).

DUDEN 7:
*Dusel:  *Das im 16. Jh. aus dem  Niederl. ins Hochd. übernommene Wort
gehört mit mnd.
düsinge "Betäubung", ahd.  tüsig "einfältig", norw. dusa "duseln", niederl.
dwaas"töricht".
Duseln ist ist eine Ableitung von Dusel;
*duseln  *"träumen, still vor sich hin gehen" 16. Jh.; *dusselig,
dusslig *"dumm,
schlafmützig.

Nu möt ick waak bliewen, denn  bi dat Wuurt *drusig *mit all' sien
Rankelwüürd heff  ick mi binah so fäuhlt as *Nusseljochen *(schläfriger
Mensch). Caffè Crema ut mien niege Kaffeemaschin möckt mi wedder munter.

Best' Gräuten.

Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
   Subject: Etymology

Dank di, Hanne.

*Regen, Regen drus'*
* *
* *Regen, Regen* drus',*
wi sitt hier warm in Huus'!
De Vageln sitt in Bom to kurn,
de Köh, dee staht an' Wall to schurn:
Regen, Regen *drus'*,
wi sitt hier warm in Huus'!

1. Vers
Text: Klaus Groth

You read this song (with vocabulary) and my "translation" here:

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/regen.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Brought to you with the help of a new keyboard


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 26 00:21:44 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:21:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.24 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.NOV.2011.162144.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Dem  Advent entgegen

Un wedder heit dat "Leiw' Frünn'n!"

Uns'* Ingelsch-Lihrer Ulrich Planken *hett ein Drapen mit Frünn'n ut
England organisiert. Ick wier gistern mit bi.
Hier mal de Plan, wat so up uns taukümmt:

*Anticipating Advent (Dem Advent entgegen).
*
Frünn'n ut England tau Besäuk in de "Bernogemeinde":
*
Donnerstag, 24. November* 18:00 "Süppchen" im Berno-Gemeindezentrum. Erstes
Kennenlernen und Wiedersehen. *(Ja, dat hett mi tauseggt.)*
*Freitag, 25. Nov.* 9:30 VolXmobil an der Paulskirche; Thomas Ruppenthal
stellt ein besonderes Projekt der Jugendarbeit unserer Landeskirche vor.
11:00 Besichtigung Festsaal des Oberkirchenrates, Münzstraße 8-10.   *15:00
Teaparty im Mehrgenerationenhaus auf dem Dreesch. Dor mak ick mit.* 19:00
Weihnachtsmarkt, Treffpunkt Eingang Dom.
*Sonnabend, 26. November* 9:00 Ausflug Bellin, Haus der Stille und Güstrow,
Krippenmuseum. 17:30 Gottesdienst Anticipating Advent im
Bernogemeindezentrum, Abend der Begegnung. Bitte bringen  Sie etwas für das
Buffet mit! *Sonntag, 27. November* 10:30 Uhr Gottesdienst in der
Paulskirche.
Veranstalter: Ev.-Luth. Bernogemeinde /Wossidlostraße 2 / 19059 Schwerin,
Kirchenältester *Ulrich Planken* / Pastorin Konstanze Helmers.

Ick heff mi poor Gedanken upschräwen, woans ick up Ingelsch 'n Snack
anfangen kann. Uns fählt de Dialog.

Also, hüt ward Ingelsch snackt..... oh ha!

Hanne

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online>
Subject: Musik

Ja, tau Tied hümpelt dat mit Höhepunkten...

Dat Landesfunkhuus Schwerin  *NDR *hett mi tau ein "Funkhauskonzert"
inlaadt (ick heff je vör un nah de Wenn' väl Tauarbeit för dat Funkhuus
makt).
Un  mit Freud wier ick mit bi. "Hell ward dat in uns Stuben - Plattdütsch
Wiehnacht mit de Fritz-Reuter-Bühn" am Mittwoch, 23. November 2011 um 19:00
Uhr im Foyer des NDR Landesfunkhauses  Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.
De F.R.Bühn hett dit Johr ehrn 85. Burtsdag fiert un hebben ehr niege CD
vörstellt. Blot inladen Gäst so an ~  fötig Lüüd nich blot ut Swerin hebben
sick drapen.  Dat Drapen wier einzig , grootorrig. Wi Frünn'n hebben uns
vör Freud ümarmt un later noch bi 'n lütten Rodspon 'n Strämel vertellt.

Dat wier grotorrig! Mal von ein anner Oort un Wies' hebben de Künstlers ehr
niege CD vörstellt, un ick heff sei mi later glieksen köfft un ok noch mit
de Mitmakers vertellt.

*Hell ward dat in uns Stuben
Plattdütsch Wiehnachten: Frech, fröhlich, feierlich. Das
Weihnachts-Ensemble der Fritz-Reuter-Bühne Schwerin mit alten und neuen
plattdeutschen Weihnachts-, Kinder- und Winterliedern sowie Texten und
Gedichten zum Fest. Dazu die Weihnachtsgeschihte up Platt.
*(Ick heff oewer nicks freches rutehüert, ja,  spaßig woll.)
*
*Mit allen Texten up Platt in einem ausführlichen Booklet von Rainer
Schobeß (ick heff fief Johr för em *Bänkel-Leeder *nah ein vörgäben Thema
schräwen, komponiert un insungen bi ein Tonstudio. Eigentlich wier dat blot
vör ein Johr so dacht, oewer dat löp so gaud, un so sünd 't fief Johr mit
250 Bänkel-Leeder worden).
De Mitmakers: Sänger/Sprecher: Arja Sharma, Ulrike Stern, Andres Auer,
Manfred Brümmer*, Knut Fiete Degner, Jens Tramsen, Valentin Manß)

* schreew de mihrsten Texten. Dat Läuschen liggt em, oewer ok de tau Harten
gahn Texten.

De vertonten Texten hebben mi bannig anroegt. Thomas Möckel (Komponist)
hett denn' Nerv drapen. Mit sien Muskanten von dat Staatstheater Swerin
inspält mit de Instrumenten Cello, Viola, Klavier, Celesta, Violine,
Kontrabass, Bassgitarre, Celesta, Akkordeon, Flöte, Tenor-, Sopran-,
Baritonsaxophon, Schlagzeug, percussion (sehr dezent eingesetzt), Trompete,
Flügelhorn, Akustikgitarre und  E-Gitarre.

Mien Mein, hier hett'n olle Traditschon mit sinnige niemodsche Traditschon
verknütt.
Wat Möckel komponiert is ümmer wedder wunnerschööön!

Glieks bi  de iersten Takten von Musik käm in mi liesen ein Fäuhlen up as
wier't nu Wiehnachten.

De CD kannst 67:45 Minuten geneiten.

Nu ward't Tied ... möt je noch weg nah denn' Groten Dreisch.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 26 22:29:30 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 14:29:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.NOV.2011.142930.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 26 November 2011 - Volume 01
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>From Cliff Smuts csmuts at xsinet.co.za

Subject LL-L “Etymology”



Best all



Interesting etymology. In Afrikaans we have ‘misreën’ (literally misty
rain) for very soft light rain. The word ‘mis’ is Afr for ‘fog’, and we
have other words, such as ‘mishoring = foghorn’ with the same component as
well. The Xhosa (black tribal grouping as well as athe name of their
language have the word ‘kitsha’ or kwitsha’ for the same event (i.e. light
rain).



Kind greetings,


Cliff

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
  <wkv at home.nl>
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.25 [DE-EN-NDS]

Thanks Luc,
My explanation of "mist and drizzle" was actually a guess; maybe we got the
word much earlier from Flemish and Dutch traders, or there might be an
older Germanic word common to all these.

Paul

----------

From: Sandy Fleming fleemin at live.co.uk
 <list at marcusbuck.org>
   Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> From: list at marcusbuck.org
  > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.24 (01) [EN]
>
> From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk

>  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]PS: when it is really fine
rain, we call it "mizzle", combining "drizzle"
> with "mist".

> Is it really a portmanteau or perhaps an old word? Low Saxon has
"musseln" for fine rain (it also means dropping powder-like or grainy
substances: "Mussel nich so mit dat Stroh, ik > heff jüst feegt." Do not
drop any straw, I just swept.).

In Scots we say "mizzlin" for raining with fine droplets, too.

When fine rain is wafted by the wind so that it looks like curtains, we
call this "smirr".

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 27 00:42:52 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:42:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.NOV.2011.164252.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 26 November 2011 - Volume 02
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26.(01) [EN]

Ick heff ok noch wat up Lager,

*musselig *Adj.,  (*-ss- *stimmhaft)* *auch umg., regnerisch, schmutzig,
vom Wetter
*musseln *leicht regnen, nieseln.
*nieseln *wie hd. *Syn **fisseln, dribbeln, drübbeln, schmuddeln, dat
nieselt sonn' bäten *es fällt leichter Regen.
*drüppen *tropfen, *druppen*, oft von beginnendem Regen: *dat drüppt all*;
übertr. von spärlichem Gewinn: *wenn 't nich rägent, so drüppt 't doch*;
auch von großem Überfluß: 'Idt drüppet all van Geld, wor se man henne
gripen'; triefen: *hei ... drüppte von baben bet unnen; von 'n Druppenfall
in 'n Platzrägen kamen *ein kleines Übel mit einem größeren
vertauschen - *druppwis'
*tropfenweise,  auch bedächtig, stockend von der Sprache.

Aber *drup *darauf; *drup un dran sin *im Begriff sein.
Lit.: Perfesser Voßlo

IDIOM
*Auf Regen folgt Sonnenschein.
**Every cloud has a silver lining.

*Ick wünsch all Lowlanners 'n sinnigen (besinnlichen) Sünndag.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 27 20:34:54 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 12:34:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.27.(01) [AF-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.NOV.2011.123454.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 27 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Hannelore,

Another verb for fine, light rain:

Sabbern, known in Bremen, Köln, Göttingen (Georg Schambach) and Brabant.

Also in use for "to drool (E), geifern (G)) and probably cognate with "to
sob (E)". Same root and also used for light rain is Southern Dutch
"zever(e)n".

I think German musseln/muscheln could well be related to older Dutch
"mooschen" (treat clumsily, play with dirt...). "Moeësn" in Brabantish.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Denis dujardin dujardin at pandora.be <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (02) [DE-NDS]

In Dutch we have "miezeren" for light raining.

In West-flemish we use "smeukken" in which the "kk" is pronounced as a
"glottislag" (dont know how you translate this to english) which has the
sound like go'''''a- get (gotta get , got to get) in Cockney.
Always wondered where smuekken came from. Anyone?

*Denis Dujardin
dujardin at telenet.be
www.denisdujardin.be
Flanders-Belgium
0032485328375*

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (02) [DE-NDS]

We often hear about how Inupiat has dozens of words for snow (though I
believe it actually doesn't); Trust the Lowlanders to have a dozen words
for rain!

Paul
(in rather dry) Derby
England

----------

From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer mrdreyer at lantic.net
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (01) [EN]

Haai, Cliff!

Onderwerp: LL-L "Etymology"

En wat van 'motreën'?

*Motreën*, (s) drizzle, Scotch mist; dribble; (w) *(ge-)*, drizzle.
[Kritzinger, Steyn, Schoonees & Cronje]
en:
Motreën: Sagte reën; Ndl *motregen* (aanhaling uit van Riebeek se
Dagboek) " 's avonds 't luchen... met motregen" (en 'n ander uit Schou)
"een geweldige mist en mot-regen ondereen gemenght" ens... [Boshoff en
Nienaber]

& while we're talking about Scotch mist, don't *they* call it 'haar'? (I'd
like to hear the back-story to that). I have also heard one of
*them*define this as the exact boundry condition between light rain &
heavy mist,
AKA "a fine fair morning" anywhere North of Carlisle!

U skryf:
Interesting etymology. In Afrikaans we have ‘misreën’ (literally misty
rain) for very soft light rain. The word ‘mis’ is Afr for ‘fog’, and we
have other words, such as ‘mishoring = foghorn’ with the same component as
well. The Xhosa (black tribal grouping as well as athe name of their
language have the word ‘kitsha’ or kwitsha’ for the same event (i.e. light
rain).

Groete,
Mark


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 28 20:23:42 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:23:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.11.28.(01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.NOV.2011.122342.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Utz H.Woltmann uwoltmann at gmx.de
 <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.27.(01) [AF-EN]

An´n 26.11.2011 schrev Denis Dujardin:

In Dutch we have "miezeren" for light raining.

I like very much the Dutch word 'miezemuizen' for light rain.

I realised the following words in Low Saxon and Missingsch:

To drizzle in LS: Dribbeln, drieseln, drübbeln, drüppeln, druseln,
drusseln, fieseln, fießeln, fisseln, miesten, misten, musseln, nieseln,
nisseln, smuddeln, snuschen.

To drizzle in Missingsch: Fieseln, pieseln, schuddern, schnuddern.

The drizzle in LS: Druus, Niesel, Nieselregen (same as German), Smuddel,
Smuddelregen, Smudderregen

The drizzle in Missingsch: Fieselregen.

We call the weather in Missingsch 'Schmuddelwetter' and in LS 'dat
schidderige Wedder'.

Best regards

Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Utz.

To drizzle in Missingsch: Fieseln, pieseln, schuddern, schnuddern.

The drizzle in Missingsch: Fieselregen.

We call the weather in Missingsch 'Schmuddelwetter' and in LS 'dat
schidderige Wedder'.

That's Bremen Missingsch, right?

In Hamburg Missingsch I'd say:

to drizzle: *schmuddeln*
drizzle: *Schmuddelregen*
drizzly weather: *Schmuddelwedder*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 06:14:10 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:14:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.28 (03) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.28.NOV.2011.221410.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 25 November 2011 - Volume 03
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be
Subject: LL-L Resources

A new Dialect Atlas of the Dutch language area (in Europe) is reviewed in
"De Standard" today.
Strange to me is the swap between komen/gekomen in the last paragraph

Regards,

Roger

quoted from:
http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=ML3ITH19

Tot ziens, salu, ajuus, houdoe en dag hoor!

Dialectatlas toont evolutie van streektalen
dinsdag 29 november 2011, 03u00

Auteur: Berthold van Maris

UTRECHT - De ‘Dialectatlas van het Nederlands' brengt streektalen
overzichtelijk in kaart en toont aan dat dialecten blijven evolueren.

Van onze medewerker

Dialectonderzoekers doen niets liever dan kaartjes tekenen. Waar in het
Nederlandse taalgebied spreken ze met de zachte g en waar met de harde?
Waar zeggen ze ‘spijkerbroek' en waar ‘jeans'?

Veel van die kaartjes zijn voor de leek moeilijk te lezen, omdat er soms
wel twintig verschillende varianten op staan aangegeven met ieder zijn
eigen symbooltje. Daarom is het goed dat er nu een boek is waarin honderd
vijftig van die kaartjes zo bewerkt zijn dat ook het grote publiek ervan
kan genieten.

Mooie, overzichtelijke kaartjes zijn het geworden. Ieder kaartje is
voorzien van een uitgebreide toelichting. Allerlei bekende dialectkwesties
komen voorbij. Waar zegt men ‘Toon wast zich', waar ‘Toon wast z'n eigen'
en waar is het ‘Toon wast hem'?

Op het kaartje over hoe men ‘groter dan' zegt in de dialecten van het
Nederlands, zie je in één oogopslag dat het in bijna alle dialecten ‘groter
als' is. Alleen in het westen van Vlaanderen zegt men liever iets anders,
namelijk ‘groter of'.

Ook minder bekende maar daarom niet minder intrigerende zaken worden in
beeld gebracht. Het lidwoord ‘een' heeft in sommige delen van het
taalgebied een mannelijke, een vrouwelijke én een onzijdige vorm
(bijvoorbeeld: ne man, ‘n vrouw, e kind). En in sommige dialecten zeggen ze
niet ‘Wie denk je dat ik in de stad heb gezien?' maar ‘Wie denk je wie ik
in de stad heb gezien?'.

Elk kaartje is anders. De grenzen tussen de verschillende varianten van een
klank, een woord of een zinsconstructie vallen bijna nooit samen met de
grenzen tussen veronderstelde dialectgroepen zoals ‘het Limburgs' of ‘het
Gronings'. Aan een goede, wetenschappelijk onderbouwde indeling in
dialectgroepen wordt trouwens al meer dan een eeuw gewerkt, met telkens
andere resultaten. Nu eens werden er in het Nederlandse taalgebied zes
dialectgroepen onderscheiden, dan weer achtentwintig of acht. Vroeger zag
men het liefst de vroege geschiedenis van Nederland door die kaartjes heen
schemeren: de huidige dialectverschillen zouden teruggaan op
taalverschillen tussen de Franken, de Saksen en de Friezen.

Streektalen

Tegenwoordig spreekt men graag over ‘streektalen', die beschermd dienen te
worden, zoals ‘het Limburgs' en ‘het Nedersaksisch' (de dialecten van Oost-
en Noord-Nederland). Maar wie al die kaartjes bekijkt en naast elkaar legt,
ziet dat er geen duidelijk omlijnde streektalen zijn. Met als enige
uitzondering, misschien, het Fries.

Bij de meeste kaartjes valt wel een interessant verhaal te vertellen. Er is
bijvoorbeeld één groot aaneengesloten gebied waarin men ‘sinaasappel' zegt.
Daaromheen liggen kleinere gebieden, die niet met elkaar verbonden zijn,
waar men ‘appelsien' zegt. De dialectoloog concludeert uit dat geografische
patroon dat ‘appelsien' de oudste vorm is, die langzaam door de nieuwere
vorm (‘sinaasappel') wordt verdrongen.

Dat dialecten steeds weer veranderen en dat soms ook in tegengestelde
richtingen doen, is mooi te zien op een kaartje over de varianten ‘ik ben
gekomen' en ‘ik ben komen'. *In Noord-Nederland zei men in de veertiende
eeuw op veel plaatsen ‘ick ben ghecomen' en is het nu overal ‘ik ben
komen'. Onder de rivieren is het precies andersom: daar zei men zes eeuwen
geleden ‘ick ben comen' en is het nu overal ‘ik ben gekomen'.*

Nicoline van der Sijs (red.),

‘Dialectatlas van het Nederlands', Prometheus, 368 blz., 39,95 euro.

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 06:17:45 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:17:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.28.(04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.NOV.2011.221745.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comc
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.27.(01) [AF-EN]

Dennis contributed the word smeukken to the growing palette of words with
which we ‘word paint’ Lowlands weather. That is getting close to E smog,
which I always thought was a contamination between smoke and fog. How come>

Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 06:22:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:22:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.28.(05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.28.NOV.2011.222243.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 25 November 2011 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: Kultur

Hallo all' Lowlanners,

in'n Wiehnachtsmaand deit sick nu all wat, un dat möt de wiede Welt ok tau
weiten kriegen.

Mit ein hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne

Am 28.11.2011 00:57, schrieb Zentrum für Niederdeutsch:

**



**

*Leve Frünnen vun't Plattdüütschzentrum in Ratzeborg,*
 *hier de Henwies op de een un anner plattdüütsche Veranstalten düsse Week
bi uns in'n Norden:*
**

**

********

*Lichtwarksaal in Hamburg*

*Walter-A.-Kreye-Abend II*

*Dirk Römmer stellt dat Wark vör*

**

Ein weiteres Bibliotheksgespräch der Carl-Toepfer-Stiftung widmet sich dem
Werk von Walter A. Kreye, dem Bremer Schriftsteller und Rundfunkregisseur
(1922-1991).

Bekannt geworden ist u.a. seine "Fidele Weltgeschicht op Platt", z.B.
mit "Mord un Dootslag bi de Nibelungen".



Hamburg, Lichtwarksaal, Neanderstraße 22, am Dienstag, 29. Nov. 2011, 18:30
Uhr - Eintritt frei

___________________

**

*Lauenburgische Akademie für Wissenschaft und Kultur*

*„Heimat un Wöör“*



Gülzow - 1. Dezember 2011, 19:30 Uhr

Literarisch-musikalischer Abend op Platt im Markt Treff, Hauptstr. 21



Volkert Ipsen, Lübeck

Der Poet und Liedermacher Volkert Ipsen spricht und singt das Plattdeutsch
seiner nordfriesischen Heimat, die er als junger Mann verlassen musste, um
in Kiel mit einem Studium zu beginnen. In seinem plattdeutschen Musik- und
Textprogramm zeigt der 57-jährige seine tiefe Verwurzelung in der
norddeutschen Heimat. Auf der Insel Nordstrand aufgewachsen, hat er die
Weite der Nordseelandschaft in sich aufgenommen. Dorthin hat es den heute
in Lübeck lebenden Pädagogen immer wieder hingezogen. Dabei berührt es ihn
zutiefst, dass moderne Entwicklungen wie Großwind- und Solaranlagen die
Landschaft seiner Jugend mehr und mehr verändern. Das beeinflusst seine
Lieder und Texte. Aber er ist auch ein genauer Beobachter seiner
Alltagsumgebung. Und da wird der Satiriker Ipsen spürbar: Mit viel Witz
porträtiert er seine Mitmenschen. Darüber hinaus versteht er es, überaus
humorvoll seine Lieder, Gedichte und Erzählungen zu moderieren und den
Zuhörern einen bunten unterhaltsamen Abend der besonderen Art zu bieten.

Volkert Ipsen war mehrere Jahre lang für das Zentrum für Niederdeutsch in
Ratzeburg tätig. Er ist Studiendirektor am Lübecker
Carl-Jacob-Burckhardt-Gymnasium. Aktuelles unter „mienleeder.blogspot.com“.



Eintritt 5 Euro / erm. 3 Euro (Schüler, Studenten)

Anmeldung ist unter Tel. 04542/87000 oder info at rzkultur.de möglich.

In Kooperation mit dem MarktTreff Gülzow

___________________



*Gut Knoop bei Kiel*

*"Vun em un ehr un anner Lüüd"*

*Egen Gedichten un Vertellen vun Karl-Heinz Groth, Eckernföör.*

**

Donnerstag, 1. Dezember 2011, 19 Uhr, Gut Knoop

**

Im schönen Herrenhaus am Nord-Ostseekanal ist Karl-Heinz Groth zu Gast, der
ausgewählte Texte seiner langjährigen Karriere als niederdeutscher
Schriftsteller präsentieren wird. Ein bisschen etwas vom Winter und von der
Weihnachtszeit, die inzwischen auch im Gutshaus Knoop eingekehrt ist, wird
auch dabei sein.



Eine Veranstaltung von PLATTGOLD, Tel. 04322-552031

___________________



*Lichtwarksaal Hamburg*

*"Wie die Alten sungen..."*

*Singen Sie hamburgisch!*



Professor Hermann Rauhe und Jochen Wiegandt erzählen und singen mit einem
Publikum, das "wie die Jungen zwitschern" soll!

Der Musiker und Liedersammler Jochen Wiegandt ist auf der Suche nach
verschollenem Liedgut, an das sich Hamburgerinnen und Hamburger hoffentlich
noch erinnern. Da dürfte auch auch noch allerhand Plattdeutsches dabei sein.



Jochen Wiegandt, NDR 90,3 und die Carl-Toepfer-Stiftung, die zu diesem
Abend einlädt:

Donnerstag, 1.12.2011, 18:30 - 20:30 Uhr, Lichtwarksaal, Neanderstraße 22,
20459 Hamburg - Eintritt frei

___________________



*Kulturzentrum Marstall am Schloss e.V.*

*„Eenen in’n Sinn“*

*Achtersinnige Leder un humorige Dööntjes vun Jochen Jacobsen*

* *

Ahrensburg, Freitag, 2. Dez. 2011, 17:00 Uhr. Lübecker Str. 8 - 22926
Ahrensburg



Der plattdeutsche Entertainer Jochen Jacobsen präsentiert achtersinnige
Leder un humorige Dööntjes. Dabei stellt er seine CD mit Eigenkompositionen
vor und singt Lieder von Klaus Groth bis C.M. Bellmann sowie plattdeutsche
Versionen französischer Chansons und George-Gershwin-Melodien. Unter dem
Motto „Sing maal wedder platt!“ fordert er seine Zuhörer zum Mitmachen auf.



Eintritt 14 Euro - www.marstall-ahrensburg.de

____________________



*Café Tagespost*

*"Wiehnachten un anner Opregen"*

*Kruuse Gedanken vun Ines Barber*

**

Dat schall woll en Heimspeel warrn: In Rendsborg is se to Huus: Ines
Barber, de Plattdüütsch-Reportersch vun'n NDR Welle Nord. Privaat schrifft
se allerhand schnaakschen Kraam. Un dat leest se nu vör:

In't Café Tagespost an'n Fridag, 2. Dezember 2011, 19.30 Uhr, Bahnhofstraße
12-16, 24768 Rendsburg.





Ik denk, dor is för jedeen wat dorbi.




**
*Hartli Gröten vun't Plattdüütschzentrum an'n 2**8**.11.2011*
*Volker Holm*
**

 *Zentrum für Niederdeutsch*
*Plattdüütschzentrum in Holsteen*
 www.niederdeutsch-zentrum.de


 *Wer in Zukunft keine E-Mail-Informationen vom ZfN haben möchte, den
bitten wir, uns das in einer kurzen Nachricht mitzuteilen:
zfn at zfn-ratzeburg.de.*

----------

From. Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: Tradition ?

Ick will jug dit nu all' leiw' Lowlanners ok noch weiten laten. Dor deit
sick wat tau Wiehnachten. Dit wier hüt mien Kopp-Arbeid.


*De Makers hebben an all'ns dacht

*So is dat nu mal, Wiehnachten is dat hoge Fest för de Famili, und dat is
grotorrig! Man dat gifft je ok Minschen, de nu womoeglich kein Sippschaft
nich hebben un ok kein Frünn', nich un wat weit ick...
Oewer all' de Mitmakers von de grotorrig  CD, up de ick noch tau schriewen
(ok tau snacken) kam, hebben an dacht. Un so föl ok up mi ein helle Schien,
un ick künn nu all bi dat Vörstellen von dit Kunstwark Wiehnachtsfreud
beläwen.

Dat in Swerin begäng' Landsfunkhus NDR 1 MV hadd ok mi tau ein
"Funkhauskonzert" inladt. Oh wat heff ick mi freut!
Un mit Freud wier ick mit bi.

"*Hell ward dat in uns Stuben - Plattdütsch Wiehnacht mit de
Fritz-Reuter-Bühn"* an'n Middeweek 23. Dag in'n Näwelmaand (November) 2011
hentau Klock soeben in de Abendstunn'. Dat fein tausnäden Programm un dat
Drapen mit all' de  inlaad'n Tauhürers in dat wiehnachtlich smückte Foyer,
un ok 'n lütten Rodspon vörweg, let all liesing Freud' upkamen. Un allein
dat Wedderseihn mit olle un truuge Frünn' let ok Minschenleiw' upkamen, de
Plattdüütschen sünd noch nich verklamt un ümmer idel mit bi.

Taugliek hett de Fritz-Reuter-Bühn in dit Johr ehrn 85. Burtsdag fiert un
nu tau rechten Tied de niege CD vörstellt. As all seggt, blot inladen Gäst
woll so an föftig bet sößtig Lüüd nich blot ut Swerin hebben sick hier
drapen. Man, wat hebben wi uns vör Freud ümarmt un drückt un bi 'n lütten
Rodspon 'n Strämel vertellt.
Dat wier grotorrig, jawoll "Spitze"  odder "super"as man je hütigendags so
seggen deit. Oewer disse Wüür seggen mi gor nich tau, wo schön hürt sick
dat an, wenn Jung un Olt sick noch up ehr Mudderspraak besinn'n. Un wo riek
un läwig sei hüt noch is, dat all' künn' hier beläwen.
Mal up ein anner un nich vermauden Oort un Wies' hebben de Künstlers ehr
niege CD vörstellt, un ick heff sei mi later glieksens köfft, süss künn ick
dit je gor so vermellen, wo fein diss CD worden is. Ja, ümmer wedder heff
ick ein Verlangen nah disse schöne Musik un uns' Platt.

Dat hett bestens funkschoniert mit *Hell ward  dat in uns Stuben -
Plattdüsch Wiehnachten: Frech, fröhlich, feierlich. Das Weihnachts-Ensemble
der Fritz-Reuter-Bühne Schwerin mit alten und neuen plattdeutschen
Weihnachts-, Kinder- und Winterliedern sowie Texten und Gedichten zum Fest.
Dazu die Weihnachtsgeschichte up Platt.

*Egenlich heff ick nicks *freches *rutehürt, ja, spaßig woll; villicht
wier't mihr Oewermaut. Is je ok egal, wir all' harden uns' Freud.

Mit all' de Texten up Platt in ein "Booklet" schräwen. Ja, Dunnerlüchten,
Rainer Schobeß hett klauke un feine Wüür  oewer dat Jubelleum von de
F-R-Bühn schräwen un bannig deiplot' in de mäkelborgsche Traditschon un
denn' Richard Spethmann*hett hei nich vergäten.
Disse niege CD hett ut mien Sicht  'n groten Pries verdeint. Na, wat nich
is, kann je noch kamen.

Un ein Bewiesen, wo fein Künstlers ut Ost un West tausamenfunn'n hebben,
ick heff kein' Ünnerscheid markt, all' hebben's liekgaud un ein best'
Plattdüütsch snackt un sungen, man, un so schön as echte Profis. Also de
Mitmakers as Plattsnackers un -sängers hebben mi oewertüügt, ick heff nicks
nich intauwend'n.

De von Manfred Brümmer schräwen Riemels/Dichtels mal nahdenkern un mal taun
Hoegen hett hei schön in echte plattdüütsche Klüer snackt, up wat för Ideen
hei oewer ok kümmt, dat let mi wunnerwarken. Minsch Manfred,wo angelst du
de plietschen Ideen...? Hest ümmer denn' Punkt an rechte Städ sett'.
Ja, un de Kron is de von Thomas Möckel schräben also komponierte Musik .
Mit de niegen Texten un de Musik, spält up verschieden Instrumenten is dit
so wat as ein *klassisch *CD worden.Un, hier holl ick denn' Wiesfinger hoch
- wi dörben nich de Muskanten vergäten! Mit ehr Musik ward de Minsch deip
anroegt (tief bewegt, berührt).

So bün ick tau de Mein kamen, hier hett'n olle Tradtischon
mit sinnig' niemodsche Traditschon verknütt.

Un nich vergäten de Moderadschon bi dat Begräuten un later bi dat Afseggen.
Heike Mayer un Thomas Lenz hebben up ehr eigen Oort *locker *vör de Gästen
bestens snackt, kein Stamern un kein "äm un äh"; sei hebben sick, so as man
seggt, denn' Ball fein tauspält un dat Publikum hett sick freut un dankt.

Groten Dank häg ok ick för all' de Mitmakers, ok Technikers un an de, de mi
noch nich künnig sünd un liesen ehr Arbeit dahn hebben. Oh Mann, un *NDR
Radio MV!
*An dissen Abend wiern wi all'tohopen ein grot' Famili.

Hartlich un mit ein Ihren (Ehren)
Hannelore Hinz
Tau Huus in Swerin

* Gründer der Niederdeutschen Bühne


Väl Freud mit ein hartlich Gräuten.


Hanne


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 18:09:44 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:09:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.29.(01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.NOV.2011.100944.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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=====================================================


From: Denis dujardin dujardin at pandora.be
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.28.(04) [EN]

Excellent Jacqueline. Wasn't aware of that contamination. Makes my day :-)

*Denis Dujardin
dujardin at telenet.be
www.denisdujardin.be
Flanders-Belgium
0032485328375

*
From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comc
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.27.(01) [AF-EN]

Dennis contributed the word smeukken to the growing palette of words with
which we ‘word paint’ Lowlands weather. That is getting close to E smog,
which I always thought was a contamination between smoke and fog. How come>

Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 18:14:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:14:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.11.29. (02) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.NOV.2011.101438.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Utz H.Woltmann uwoltmann at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.11.28.(01) [EN]

An´n 28.11.2011 21:23, schrev Ron:

 That's Bremen Missingsch, right?
>

Yes, Bremen and the surrounding area.

We say: In Brem´n un umzu (bi de Tagenbarens un ook bi de Butenbremers).

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards
Utz H. Woltmann
Buchenweg 24
D-21635 Jork

Fon: ++49 4162 942995
Mobile: ++49 160 8580273
E-mail: uwoltmann at gmx.de


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 18:23:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:23:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.29 (03) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.NOV.2011.102343.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2011 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: list at marcusbuck.org
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.28 (03) [EN-NL]

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be

> Subject: LL-L Resources
>
> Vroeger zag
> men het liefst de vroege geschiedenis van Nederland door die kaartjes heen
> schemeren: de huidige dialectverschillen zouden teruggaan op
> taalverschillen tussen de Franken, de Saksen en de Friezen.
>
> Streektalen
>
> Tegenwoordig
>

Dit "vroeger - tegenwoordig" klinkt alsof er een tegenstelling of
tegenspraak is. Maar het is blijkbaar dat de verschillen "appelsien -
sinaasappel" of "spijkerbroek - jeans" geen onmiddelbaar verband kunnen
hebben met Franken, Saksen, Friezen. Slechts en middelbaar verband,
voorzover de uitbreiding van woorden stopde aan oude isoglossenbundels.
Maar de stopkracht van oude isoglossenbundels is erg swak geworden sinds de
standardtaal is alomtegenwoordig. Oude isoglossen worden verschoven door de
straaldruk van de standardtaal. Het articeltje toont het zelf, "appelsien"
is ouder, maar "sinaasappel" wint over. Dus zijn de kaartjes van de atlas
een nogal zwak argument tegen de invloed van Franken, Saksen en Friezen.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be
 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.28 (03) [EN-NL]

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be
> Subject: LL-L Resources
> A new Dialect Atlas of the Dutch language area (in Europe) is reviewed in
"De Standard" today.
> Strange to me is the swap between komen/gekomen in the last paragraph

Attached are some maps from the paper edition of De Standaard.

The “hadich” they give for Limburgish is in my version (of Vliermaal):
“Had oech gowd”.

Regards,
Roger
<uwoltmann at gmx.de>

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 30 19:52:39 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:52:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.30 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.30.NOV.2011.115239.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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=====================================================


From: Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.29.(01) [EN]

I remember clearly in the 50s that magazines like Time regularly referred
to the word smog as new and as being an amalgam of fog and smoke. But my
etymological dictionary cites 1905 as its date of origin and in reference
to London, not Los Angeles.

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.28 (03) [EN-NL]

So bün ick nahgahn bi *Tot ziens, *wat so gaud bi uns *Adschüs ok
Tschüs*heiten deit.

Vörweg paßt disse Riemel von John Brinckman:

*        Adschüs

*Du hest mi so väl Fründschaft dan
un büst nu so wit mit mi gahn
dörch Nacht un Dag un dick un dünn,
un wi'ck di all, wat got is, günn'n -
ick segg di nu adschüs!

Torecht heww ick wat Origs klœhnt,
kann sin, toväl ok vör di drœhnt;
na, jede Vagel fläut't sin Leed,
so as he nah sin'n Snabel heet -
ick segg di nu adschüs!

Wi gahn nu all beid hier vuneen,
wen weet, wat wi üns weddersehn,
wen weet, wat du dat tweete Mal
ok stiggst mit mi de Landstrat dal -
ick segg di nu adschüs!

Wen weet, wat ick ok Order krieg
un wider gah un wider stig;
ick häng, min'n Handstock an de Wand
un schüdd di, Broder, nu de Hand
un segg di nu adschüs!

Un nu wedder Perfesser Voßlo:
*adschüs *(*atšüs, *meist verkürzt *tšüs) *der volkstümliche Abschiedsgruß,
der sich im Weltkriege nicht hat verdrängen lassen und auch jetzt noch
unter Bekannten zu hören ist; lautlich auf eine 1739 in einem
Hochzeitsgedicht belegte Form *atjü *oder *atšü *('adju' zurückgehend;
selten daneben die nichtheimischen Formen*adje *und *adjö. *Im Gruß
vielfach mit gemütvollen Wendungen verknüpft: *adschüs, wenn Se 't gaut
geiht, denken S' an uns*; wenn man ein Wiedersehen wünscht: *adschüs,
vergät dat Wedderkamen nich! - *Häufig neckend: *adschüs, grüß Großmudder
achter'n Aben; *auch reimend im Knabenreim: *adschüs, stäk'n Finger in'n
Noors un grüß; adjö, hest ok Flöh, adschüs, hest ok Lüs? - *In der
Gegenrede: *Adjü hett sick uphangen, nu seih du di bäter vör; *ironisch:
adschüs, Welt, wi gahn in'n  Ehestand; beim zweiten Schnaps ruft man: *adschüs,
Koorl, grüß den annern*; wenn man beim Kartenspiel kein Glück hat: *adschüs,
Lisett, drei Sössling liggen uppe Trepp. *- Un so künn ick hier noch väl
von uptellen.

*tschüs, *schüs Abschiedsgruß; verbreitete Kurzform von *adschüs; *von
span. *adiós *über seem. Vermittlung hergeleitet wird; *tschüs,  *öft. *
schüs.*
Gefühltsbetonte Diminutivformen *tschüßing, schüßing.

*Na, denn Tschüßing (dat Wuurt *hartlich *kœnt ji jug denn ja denken.)

Hanne* *

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 30 19:56:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:56:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.30.(02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.NOV.2011.115641.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================


From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Language Tips

All wedder niege Nahrichten von:


  *            PLATTNET-Nachrichten - 30**.11.2011 *

  **

**

   * *

**

*    *

**

*Bökertipp:*
*



„Was für ein schönes Buch, da freu ich mich zu.“


*

*So spricht Schleswig-Holstein*



(pn) Mit „Moin, Moin“ grüßen die Nordlichter morgens, mittags und abends.
Und weil’s so schön ist, breitet sich diese Formel allmählich über die
ganze Republik aus. Jeder versteht, was gemeint ist. Aber wo er her, dieser
Ausdruck? Fragen wie diese beantwortet das 224 Seiten starke Buch, das
speziellen Ausdrücken der Alltagssprache im Norden gewidmet ist.
Hervorgegangen ist es aus einer Aktion des Schleswig-Holsteinischen
Zeitungsverlags „sh:z“, der seine Leser aufgefordert hatte,
Lieblingsredewendungen zu nennen und von typischen Wörtern und regional
bezogenen Begriffen zu berichten. Der Erfolg dieses Aufrufes ist
überwältigend und die Flut der Einsendungen reißt nicht ab. Weiterhin
erscheint täglich in den Zeitungen des Verlags die Rubrik „So spricht
Schleswig-Holstein“. Die schönsten, interessantesten Begriffe sind nun als
Buch erschienen. Dabei halfen ein wissenschaftlicher Beirat, der das
erforderliche Fachwissen beisteuerte, sowie der plattdeutsche
Schriftsteller und sh:z-Autor Karl-Heinz Groth, der die Leitung des
Redaktionsteams übernahm. Wer Spaß daran hat, den regionalen
Spracheigenarten des nördlichen Bundeslandes nachschlagend oder schmökernd
auf den Grund zu gehen, der sollte sich dieses Taschenbuch in den
Bücherschrank stellen. Es ist ein zeitgemäßes Heimatkundebuch, das gut
Platz nehmen kann zwischen DUDEN und neuem SASS.



*So spricht Schleswig-Holstein*

Herausgegeben vom Schleswig-Holsteinischen Zeitungsverlag

Redaktionsleitung: Karl-Heinz Groth

Fachbeirat: Wolfgang Börnsen (MdB)

Prof. Dr. Willy Diercks

Prof. Dr. Silke Göttsch-Elten

Prof. Dr. Thomas Steensen

Mit Cartoons von Kim Schmidt

Verlag Ellert & Richter, Hamburg 2011

ISBN 978-3-8319-0455-6

9,95 Euro



*(PLATTNET-Nachricht)*

*_______________________________________**
___________________________________________________* **

**

*PLATTNET.de   Nachrichten  **Volker Holm, Buchenweg 35, D-22926
Ahrensburg, Tel. 49-4102-4739108 -
**http://nachrichten.plattnet.de*<http://nachrichten.plattnet.de/>
* *

*PLATTNET.de   Nachrichten-Archiv: alle Nachrichten unter **
http://archiv.plattnet.de/* <http://archiv.plattnet.de/>* *

*PLATTNET.de  ist ein Dienst des Zentrums für Niederdeutsch in Holstein (**w
ww.niederdeutsch-zentrum.de**)  *

*PLATTNET.de ** **Nachrichten  können unter folgenden Bedingungen verwendet
und weiterverbreitet werden:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/deed.de*

*Eine Weitergabe der Adressaten-Daten, vornehmlich für gewerbliche Zwecke,
ist ausgeschlossen.*

*Wer in Zukunft keine E-Mail-Informationen von PLATTNET haben möchte, den
bitten wir, uns das in einer kurzen Nachricht mitzuteilen: **
nieges at plattnet.de* <nieges at plattnet.de>* *

 *Mit best' Gräuten.
*

* Hanne ut Swerin*


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 30 20:03:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:03:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Environment" 2011.11.30.(03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.30.NOV.2011.120341.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2011 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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=====================================================


From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: History ?

Hallo Ron,

mi is upstund's de Infall kamen, ob wi ok oewer Klimawannel disketieren
kœnn' ...

http://www.umweltjournal.de/rezensionen/18657.php

*kein jubeln

**der himmel ist so wie ein sieb
das mächtig grob schon ist
von oben will die Sonne
aber noch für's leben sein
und gibt ihr bestes
sie strengt sich an
jedoch von unten
stinkt nebel-rauch
man nennt's auch smog
von menschen gemacht
und schiebt sich durch das sieb
das helle verliert sein licht
und auch zugleich die zeit
wie lange kann mensch
helle sonne noch sehen
läßt sonnen-freiheit nach
H. Hinz 26.0.2008

*Ick heff dat mal hier riskiert.
*
*Hartlich.

Hanne

----------

From: R.F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Environment

Yes, Hanne, *any* subject may be discussed, as long as the core of the
discussion has direct relevance to the Lowlands.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 30 22:01:26 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:01:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.30.(04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.NOV.2011.140126.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2011 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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=====================================================


From: Isaac M. Davis isaacmacdonalddavis at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.30 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

From: Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.29.(01) [EN]
>
> I remember clearly in the 50s that magazines like Time regularly referred
> to the word smog as new and as being an amalgam of fog and smoke. But my
> etymological dictionary cites 1905 as its date of origin and in reference
> to London, not Los Angeles.
>

Is it possible that it was a relatively recent loan from one dialect of
English to another, perhaps a result of contact between speakers in World
War II?

saac M. Davis

-- 

"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master."
—Abraham Lincoln


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  1 22:31:46 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:31:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.11.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.NOV.2011.153146.0700.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 01 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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=====================================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in November of 2011!



First of all, welcome to those of you that joined us since the beginning of
October 2011!


 *India* (????, ????, ????, ????, ????, ??????, ????, ??????, ???????,
????, ?????):
       Punjab (?????):
              Rajpura (???????) [1]
*Netherlands* (Nederland, Nederlaand, Nederl?n)*:*
       Gelderland:
              Wezep [1]
       Northern Holland (Noord-Holland):
              Amsterdam [1]
       Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland):
              Valkenburg [1]
*United Kingdom*:
       England:
              Derbyshire:
                     Derby [1]
*United States of America*:
       District of Columbia:
             Washington [1]

 *SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*Subject headers*

Some of you are still not following the subject header rule (see *Do not
mix topics* under Rules below). Here in brief:


   - *Only one topic per message*
   - *In responding to an earlier posting, please use the subject line that
   already exists for a given thread. Do not change or "tweak" it, not the
   date and language labels either!*
   - *Only if you start a thread may you suggest your own subject header,
   but do not insist on your subject header if I change it.*

*List Mail v Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as
responses to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this
distinction it could happen that your private message ends up posted to the
List. For administrative purposes, it's best if you use
lowlands.list at gmail.com.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from
the address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from
that address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to
unsubscribe or change their subscription configurations from addresses that
are not subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only
from the subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ([ ]). This indicates which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains
the URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting
proposals. In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities:



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon (in the US even groceries!) you might as well do so via our
Lowlands-L shops (so far in Canada, Germany, France, Japan, UK and USA - (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)) which have constantly changing
Lowlands-related selections. We (i.e. Lowlands-L) get a small percentage of
Amazon sales if you enter Amazon through these portals. Believe me: it
hardly pays a tiny fraction of the money I pay out of my own pocket to
bringing Lowlands-L to you, and I am not even counting the hours of work I
put into it.



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting
postings. So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.
*Many of you are still not following this rule. (Please see my note at the
top.)

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are visible only
to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward and
participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your
view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do something
in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides,
we will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not getting and doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up
your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is
not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
even if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please!

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


*Edit quotes:* If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
relevant to your response.


*Give credit:* Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If
you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as
the author. That simply will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.



*Sign off:* If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving
us the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address and your name.



*Temporary Absence*

   - Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
   arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
   lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be
   stopped and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members
   can attest, this has been working really well. It certainly beats the old,
   crude method of signing off and on again.
   - Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice.
   Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out"
   for some infraction or other. (I know this for sure only about those that
   contact me. But it happens again and again and involves even the nicest,
   best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have
   received prior reprimands and warnings (which happen very rarely, have not
   happened at all for well over two years). If you find yourself disconnected
   from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has
   unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because
   your mail servers keep informing the list server that you cannot be reached
   or is filled above quota. Most of the time this is due to temporary
   disconnection.
   - Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or
   "spam" filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why
   our mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes.
   - So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam"
   filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem
   if all of the above fails.
   - Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an
   application. I'll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
sassisch at yahoo.com


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  1 22:34:32 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:34:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.11.01 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.NOV.2011.153432.0700.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 01 November 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be

Subject: LL-L Endangered Languages


There are quite some endangered languages in the US.

One of these is ?Missouri French?:


*Missouri is home to an endangered dialect of the French language
known as Missouri
French. Speakers of the dialect, who call themselves Creoles, are
descendants of the French pioneers who settled the area then known as the
Illinois Country beginning in the late 17th century. It developed in
isolation from French speakers in Canada and Louisiana, becoming quite
distinct from the varieties of Canadian French and Louisiana Creole French.
Once widely spoken throughout the area, Missouri French is now nearly
extinct, with only a few elderly speakers able to use it*.

pasted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri


I?m on a project in St Louis Mo and I will be over there most of my time in
the period Dec 2011? May 2012. So I?m interested whether somebody has any
clues how to contact speakers of Missouri French.

Regards,
Roger
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  7 00:56:46 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 16:56:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2011.11.06 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.6.NOV.2011.165646.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 06 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>

Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.11.01 (01) [EN]


I wish everyone a good Offering Feast; Je souhais une bonne F?te de Tabaski
? tout le monde; 'Id el Adha mubarak!
Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Thanks, Ingmar.

Christian All Saints Day and varieties of the Day of the Dead, as well as
the "Pagan," "Celtic" and Jewish High Holy Days recently behind us, I'm
joining Ingmar in sending best wishes to our Muslim members and their loved
ones for a wonderful ??? ?????? (??d al-?A???, Festival of Sacrifice). This
holiday commemorates the willingness of Abraham (????????? *?A?r?h?m*,
???????? *?Ibr?h?m*) to sacrifice his son. Because of this, this festival
is celebrated widely throughout the Islamic world under various names
referring to "sacrifice" (*qorb?n* etc.).

Regards and Love,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  7 01:02:45 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 17:02:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.11.06 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.6.NOV.2011.170245.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 06 November 2011 - Volume 02
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2011.11.01 (01) [EN]

Another member from Derby! Two of us!

Paul
Derby
England

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in November of 2011!



First of all, welcome to those of you that joined us since the beginning of
October 2011!


 *India* (????, ????, ????, ????, ????, ??????, ????, ??????, ???????,
????, ?????):
       Punjab (?????):
              Rajpura (???????) [1]
*Netherlands* (Nederland, Nederlaand, Nederl?n)*:*
        Gelderland:
              Wezep [1]
       Northern Holland (Noord-Holland):
              Amsterdam [1]
       Southern Holland (Zuid-Holland):
              Valkenburg [1]
*United Kingdom*:
       England:
              Derbyshire:
                     Derby [1]
*United States of America*:
       District of Columbia:
             Washington [1]

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  7 23:25:51 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:25:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.07 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.7.NOV.2011.152551.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 07 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>

Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2011.11.06 (01) [EN]

I wish everyone a good Offering Feast; Je souhais une bonne F?te de Tabaski
? tout le monde; 'Id el Adha mubarak!
Ingmar

Thanks, Ron. I called it incorrectly "Offering Feast" instead of Sacrifice
Festival, because of the Dutch name "Offerfeest", compare German
"Opferfest". Btw I wonder why German has -pf- instead of -ff- in this word,
it seems to be a hypercorrection to me, because the original Latin verb is
"offere" to offer. Or was the German word influenced by Latin operari, to
work, which may have given a p => pf in German ?
Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Holidays

Thanks, Ingmar.

Christian All Saints Day and varieties of the Day of the Dead, as well as
the "Pagan," "Celtic" and Jewish High Holy Days recently behind us, I'm
joining Ingmar in sending best wishes to our Muslim members and their loved
ones for a wonderful ??? ?????? (??d al-?A???, Festival of Sacrifice). This
holiday commemorates the willingness of Abraham (????????? ?A?r?h?m,
???????? ?Ibr?h?m) to sacrifice his son. Because of this, this festival is
celebrated widely throughout the Islamic world under various names
referring to "sacrifice" (qorb?n etc.).

Regards and Love,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz hannehinz at t-online.de
Subject: Etymology

Hallo all' Lowlanners!

Ick will hapen, dat all' Mitmakers gaud tauw?g s?nd (gesund).

Mi is upfollen, dat f?r poor Daag i'n Radio in ein'n "hochd??tschen" Bidrag
dat Wuurd  'Mumpitz' snackt w??r. Ick kenn Mumpitz man blot as ein
nedderd??tschet Wuurd.
So heff ick nahk?ken bi Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*Mumpitz *m. Unsinn, Dummheit (Hagenow/Belsch) WOLF 3723 [Wolf  Siegmund,
A. Wolf, W?rterbuch des Rotwelschen (Deutsche Gaunersprache). Mannheim
1956. Zit. nach Artikelnummern. - Zig.: Gro?es W?rterbuch der
Zigeunersprache. Mannheim 1960. Zit. nach Artikelnummern.]

Ja un in'n DUDEN 7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache k?nn ick dit Wuurt ok
l?sen: Der seit der zweiten H?lfte des 19. Jh.s gebr?uchliche Ausdruck
*Mumpitz **ugs.  *f?r  "Unsinn, Schwindel" stammt aus dem Berliner
B?rsenjargon.
Wie ?lteres 'Mummelputz' "Vogelscheuche" (17. Jh.) und *hess. *Mombotz
"Schreckgestalt" bedeutet auch das Wort 'Mumpitz' eigentlich "[vermummte]
Schreckgestalt, Schreckgespenst" (vgl. *putzig*)*. *Im B?rsenjargon
bezeichnete es zun?chst ein erschreckendes oder schwindelhaftes Gerede.

Hm, wat weit' ji denn womoeglich, woans dat noch heiten k?nn.

Hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  8 17:27:51 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:27:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.8.NOV.2011.092751.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 08 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: list at marcusbuck.org

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.07 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]


From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>

>
> Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2011.11.06 (01) [EN]
>
> I wish everyone a good Offering Feast; Je souhais une bonne F?te de Tabaski
> ? tout le monde; 'Id el Adha mubarak!
> Ingmar
>
> Thanks, Ron. I called it incorrectly "Offering Feast" instead of Sacrifice
> Festival, because of the Dutch name "Offerfeest", compare German
> "Opferfest". Btw I wonder why German has -pf- instead of -ff- in this word,
> it seems to be a hypercorrection to me, because the original Latin verb is
> "offere" to offer. Or was the German word influenced by Latin operari, to
> work, which may have given a p => pf in German ?
> Ingmar
>

Indeed. This also reflects in the old terms for sacristan (in German
"K?ster", Low Saxon "K?ster") which in Middle Low Saxon times was called
"Offermann" or "Oppermann" in some regions. This also became a surname. The
North Low Saxon region preferred "Offermann" and the Eastfalian region
preferred "Oppermann". It's indeed from the words "offere"/"operari". (See
e.g. <http://www.answers.com/topic/oppermann>)

Marcus Buck
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  9 03:31:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:31:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.8.NOV.2011.193105.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 08 November 2011 - Volume 02
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (01) [EN]

So as ?mmer "Hallo leiw' Lowlanners".

*opfern: *Das aus der Kirchensprache stammende Verb mhd. opfern, ahd.
ophar?n (urspr?nglich "etwas Gott als Opfergabe darbringen") ist entlehnt
aus* lat.-kirchenlat*. operari
"werkt?tig sein, arbeiten; einer religi?sen  Handlung obliegen, der
Gottheit durch Opfer dienen; Almosen geben. ?ber weitere etymologische
Zusammenh?nge vgl. operieren. - Eine alte R?ckbildung aus dem Verb 'opfern'
ist das Substantiv *Opfer *(mhd. opfer, ahd. opfar).
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*K?ster: *"Kirchendiener": Die nhd. Form des Wortes geht ?ber mhd. kuster
auf ahd. kustor zur?ck, das aus mlat. custor "H?ter (des Kirchenschatzes);
Kirchenpfleger" entlehnt ist. Dies geh?rt zu lat. custos "W?chter,
Aufseher. H?ter usw."
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*K?ster *m. K?ster: 'de K?ste' (Rostock 1676)
Sachliches: dei K?ster ist seit den Zeiten der Reformation zun?chst der
Gehilfe des Pfarrherrn, des *Preisters* oder *Pasters*, bei dessen
s?mtlichen Amtshandlungen, zu denen er diesen stets abzuholen hat; vgl.
Ord. d. Misse von 1545, deren erster Abschnitt beginnt: 'wo sick de
Kerckheren unde Kosters up den Doorpen des Sonnavednes, ock alle andere
hillige Avende holden schooelen'; jeden Wochentag hat der K?ster dreimal
dei *B?ad'klock* tau st?ten, sonntags den Gottesdienst einzul?uten, in der
Kirche die  Gesangsnummern anzustecken und die Gemeindelieder anzustimmen,
mancherorts auch den *Kling'b?del* herumzureichen.
 *Offer* n. a. Spr. Opfer, Gabe der Gl?ubigen f?r die Gottheit.
Die Wortform *Offer *zum Verb *offern* aus lat. *offerre* ist dem Nd. ?ber
das Mittel- und Niederrheingebiet aus der galloromanischen  Kirchensprache
zugeflossen. Im mod. Nd. tritt sie hinter hd. Opfer, opfern stark zur?ck.
Auff?llig ist ein Beleg f?r *Opper* 'Oek ensal de br?dir eder prister . . .
t? nenerleye opper grypen, dt dar velle edder vellich were'  (Wismar/Temzin
1395); das im As.  alts?chsisch) neben Offar bezeugte Opper aus lat. opera,
operari, ein fr?h von der s?ddeutschen Kirchensprache ins Nd.
ausstrahlendes Lehnwort, das auf hd. Gebiet mit Lautverschiebung *Opfer *ergab
FRINGS Germ. Rom 112*
*Theodor Frings; Germ. Rom: Germania Romana. Teuth. Beiheft 4.
Mittldeutsche Studien, Heft 2. Halle 1932. Grundl.: Grundlegung einer
Geschichte der deutschen Sprache. 3. Aufl. Halle 1957.

*offern, *mod. meist durch das hd. Wort ersetzt, opfern; refl.: sich zum
Opfer bringen: 'wil ick (Christus) my s?lvest vor de suende offeren' Ord.
d. Misse; ein Opfer, h?ufig Geldopfer bringen. Zss.: nahoffern; hen-,
veropfern. - Mnd. offeren.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert (Ausz?ge/Abschnitte)

Nu is dat doch mihr worden, as ick dacht' heff.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 13 22:41:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:41:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.13 (01) [DE-NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.NOV.2011.144143.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 13 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Luc Vanbrabant lucv32 at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (02) [DE-NDS]

Dag,

De priesters (pasters) hebben in Vlaanderen  een 'koster'.
Voor de orde in de kerk bestaan hier en daar nog 'kerkbaljuws'. Vroeger was
dit algemener. Zo'n kerkbaljuw werd in de volksmond 'suisse' genaamd omdat
ze deden denken aan de Zwitserse garde van de paus.

Vriendelijke groeten,

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.08 (01) [EN]

So as ?mmer "Hallo leiw' Lowlanners".

*opfern: *Das aus der Kirchensprache stammende Verb mhd. opfern, ahd.
ophar?n (urspr?nglich "etwas Gott als Opfergabe darbringen") ist entlehnt
aus* lat.-kirchenlat*. operari
"werkt?tig sein, arbeiten; einer religi?sen  Handlung obliegen, der
Gottheit durch Opfer dienen; Almosen geben. ?ber weitere etymologische
Zusammenh?nge vgl. operieren. - Eine alte R?ckbildung aus dem Verb 'opfern'
ist das Substantiv *Opfer *(mhd. opfer, ahd. opfar).
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*K?ster: *"Kirchendiener": Die nhd. Form des Wortes geht ?ber mhd. kuster
auf ahd. kustor zur?ck, das aus mlat. custor "H?ter (des Kirchenschatzes);
Kirchenpfleger" entlehnt ist. Dies geh?rt zu lat. custos "W?chter,
Aufseher. H?ter usw."
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*K?ster *m. K?ster: 'de K?ste' (Rostock 1676)
Sachliches: dei K?ster ist seit den Zeiten der Reformation zun?chst der
Gehilfe des Pfarrherrn, des *Preisters* oder *Pasters*, bei dessen
s?mtlichen Amtshandlungen, zu denen er diesen stets abzuholen hat; vgl.
Ord. d. Misse von 1545, deren erster Abschnitt beginnt: 'wo sick de
Kerckheren unde Kosters up den Doorpen des Sonnavednes, ock alle andere
hillige Avende holden schooelen'; jeden Wochentag hat der K?ster dreimal
dei *B?ad'klock* tau st?ten, sonntags den Gottesdienst einzul?uten, in der
Kirche die  Gesangsnummern anzustecken und die Gemeindelieder anzustimmen,
mancherorts auch den *Kling'b?del* herumzureichen.
 *Offer* n. a. Spr. Opfer, Gabe der Gl?ubigen f?r die Gottheit.
Die Wortform *Offer *zum Verb *offern* aus lat. *offerre* ist dem Nd. ?ber
das Mittel- und Niederrheingebiet aus der galloromanischen  Kirchensprache
zugeflossen. Im mod. Nd. tritt sie hinter hd. Opfer, opfern stark zur?ck.
Auff?llig ist ein Beleg f?r *Opper* 'Oek ensal de br?dir eder prister . . .
t? nenerleye opper grypen, dt dar velle edder vellich were'  (Wismar/Temzin
1395); das im As.  alts?chsisch) neben Offar bezeugte Opper aus lat. opera,
operari, ein fr?h von der s?ddeutschen Kirchensprache ins Nd.
ausstrahlendes Lehnwort, das auf hd. Gebiet mit Lautverschiebung *Opfer *ergab
FRINGS Germ. Rom 112*
*Theodor Frings; Germ. Rom: Germania Romana. Teuth. Beiheft 4.
Mittldeutsche Studien, Heft 2. Halle 1932. Grundl.: Grundlegung einer
Geschichte der deutschen Sprache. 3. Aufl. Halle 1957.

*offern, *mod. meist durch das hd. Wort ersetzt, opfern; refl.: sich zum
Opfer bringen: 'wil ick (Christus) my s?lvest vor de suende offeren' Ord.
d. Misse; ein Opfer, h?ufig Geldopfer bringen. Zss.: nahoffern; hen-,
veropfern. - Mnd. offeren.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert (Ausz?ge/Abschnitte)

Nu is dat doch mihr worden, as ick dacht' heff.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 13 22:45:00 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:45:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2011.11.13 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.NOV.2011.144500.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 13 November 2011 - Volume 02
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From: John Bockman jbockman at japan.lakeland.edu
 <lucv32 at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L travel tips

This is not a travel tip per se but a family history that I'd like you
to look at.
https://sites.google.com/a/japan.lakeland.edu/bockman-family-history/Home/prehistory

--
John
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 13 22:55:14 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:55:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.13 (03) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.NOV.2011.145514.0800.>

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen"
<info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl><jbockman at japan.lakeland.edu>
 Subject: LL-L

Beste Lowlanders,
Waarom het sinds 'Offering Feast' opeens erg stil blijft op LL-L, vroeg ik
mij af...

Met het lezen van allerlei Nedersaksische dialecten maar ook met Duits,
Nederlands, Frysk, Vlaams, Frans, Engels, Afrikaans, e.d. heb ik weinig
moeite. En nee, geloof me, ik heb werkelijk niets tegen welke politiek en
welke geloofsovertuiging ook. Ik heb wel iets tegen mensen die al dan niet
moedwillig en al dan niet met behulp Google, geloofachtige kretologie
bijeen verzamelen en daar anderen (mij in ieder geval) mee lastig vallen.
Als dat ook nog in een voor mij onleesbare taal (o.a. Hebrew, Arab, o.i.d.)
gebeurt, op een discussieforum waar ik dit niet verwacht, ja, dan haak ik
af. Ik wil namelijk wel graag lezen en vooral ook begrijpen wat er staat.
Als het iets met Nedersaksisch of andere bovengenoemde talen te maken heeft
wil ik er zelfs m'n stinkende best voor doen om het te begrijpen maar
allerlei geloofsuitingen, wensen of misschien wel verwensingen in korte
zinnen die buiten mijn westerse norm vallen, zijn voor mij geen punt van
discussie. Een aantal zaken - waaronder politiek en geloof - kun je m.i.
niet afdoen met slaken een paar kreten.

Graag was ik een nieuwe topic gestart over bijvoorbeeld dat 'slaken'
hierboven of over de erg interessante bodemvondsten die onlangs zijn gedaan
onder de gevangenis 'Santa Fu' van Hamburg (Dld) (zie: Hamburger
Abendblatt, 31-10-2011). Dat heeft waarschijnlijk heel veel, zelfs met het
ontstaan van ons Nedersaksisch te maken. Maar nee, ik doe het niet. Ik
luister nog een poosje en wellicht haak ik dan geruisloos af.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Dear Piet,

Apparently you understand more languages that are used here than do many
other members. According to our rules, *any* language may be used.

Beste Piet,

Blijkbaar begrijp je meer talen die hier worden gebruikt dan doen veel andere
leden. Volgens onze regels, kan elke taal gebruikt worden.

MVG/Regards,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 14 20:57:49 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:57:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "History" 2011.11.14 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.14.NOV.2011.125749.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Tom?s ? C?rthaigh tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com<jbockman at japan.lakeland.edu>
 Subject: LL-L "Travels" 2011.11.13 (02) [EN]

That website page should be reproduced here as a post... excellent. Never
knew that was why the saxons gto their names...

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've
written one is never at peace"*
----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L travel tips

Hallo John un all' Lowlanners.

Ick b?n  dien B?d' nahgahn un heff de Web-Sid bes?cht.
De beiden "Pierdk?pp" as G?welsmuck hebben mi tauseggt, wiel dat je ok hier
in M?kelborg noch beg?ng is.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pferdek?pfe_(Giebelschmuck)

Ick fang mal mit de Grotd?r an.
Oewer de Grotd?r st?nn up den'n *D?rbalken (SYN. D?rholm) *mihrstens ein
Inschrift.  Mal mit Antiqua-Baukstawen un ok mit Fraktur-Baukstawen.
In dit l?tte Bauk "Mecklenburgische ORNAMENT-FIBEL" heff ick  twei funn'n
mit diss Baukstawen:

DER . HERR . SEGNE . VND . BEWAHRE . DIESES . HAVE . ALLE .  DIE . DA .
GEHEN . EIN . VND . AUS .
ANDREIS . SCHMIT . MARA . PANKEN . ANNO 1726
DE . N. 22 . MARTIVS

UN:

Der Herr segnet die ihn f?rchten bey de Kleine und  Grosse
Woomer denzten M?rtz Ao 1781

Un hier dat Bed?den (mihr ein Vers?uk) von de Pierdk?pp:

- Kieken sick de beiden Pierdk?pp an, winken sei dat Gl?ck in't Huus.
- Kieken sei sick nich an, denn kann nicks B?s' dat Huus drapen.
- Pierdk?pp, de nah binnen kieken, s?nd ein Symbol f?r Harmonie
  tw?schen Mann un Fru; kieken's nah buten, denn gellt dat Teiken
  Unfr?den mank Fru un Mann.
- Kieken sick de Pierdk?pp an, denn heit dat, dat all' Mannsl??d von
  denn' Hoff tau Huus s?nd; kieken sei sick nich an, dat all' Mannsl??d
  von dissen Hoff in'n Krieg s?nd.
- Nah binnen kieken(d) K?pp wiesen up de "Einheirat" Infriegen  von
denn'
  Mann (Kierl) up denn' Hoff; nah buten kieken(d) K?pp gellt dat f?r dat
  Infriegen von de Fru up denn' Hoff.

So, nu k?nnt ji dat utleggen, as ji willt... odder so as Dackdecker M?ller
holl'n... (de let dat so..)

Mi w?rd dit mal verlangen, ob noch m?nnigein wat tau dat Utd?den von de
Pierdk?pp bidragen kann.

Na, denn H?H! - Prrr!

Hanne ut Swerin

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 15 18:12:09 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:12:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.15 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.NOV.2011.101209.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 15 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
 Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.13 (03) [EN-NL]

Dag Piet,



Zo is het nu eenmaal, we moeten allemaal wel eens een keertje van ons
afblazen. Maar dat krantenbericht kan ik niet vinden, is het misschien de
verkeerde datum??
Jacqueline BdJ

** ----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.13 (03) [EN-NL]

Waor heb ie 't nou eigenlijk over, Bult, wat zit oe dwars? Toch niet die
gelokswuns veur 't Offerfeest, zo knieperig zo'j toch wel niet wezen? 't
Zol toch niet zo weden da'w hier meinsen wel een goeie Sunterklaos  of
Karst toe weinsen meugt van oe, mar gien Chanoeka, Ramadan of Holi-festival?
Waorumme dan wel niet, umdat die geleuven niet hier in de lege laanden
thuus heurt, volgens oe?
Misschien he'k 't mis, lees ik oen bosschop verkeerd, mar as ik 't niet mis
hebbe, doe dan mar wa'j in oen leste zin zegt...
Ingmar

What are you talking about, Bult, what's bothering you? Hopefully not my
wishes for the sacrifice Festival, you won't be that little-minded? It
can't be that we can wish people a good Saint Nicholas or Christmas
according to you, but not Khanuka, Ramadhan or Holi festival?
Why couldn't we, maybe because these religions don't belong in the low
lands, according to you?
Maybe I'm wrong and misread your message, but if I didn't, maybe you should
do what you were saying in your last sentence (i.e.: threatening to leave
this group because he doesn't want to be bothered with non-Western things
here)

Ingmar

From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
 Subject: LL-L

Beste Lowlanders,
Waarom het sinds 'Offering Feast' opeens erg stil blijft op LL-L, vroeg ik
mij af...

Met het lezen van allerlei Nedersaksische dialecten maar ook met Duits,
Nederlands, Frysk, Vlaams, Frans, Engels, Afrikaans, e.d. heb ik weinig
moeite. En nee, geloof me, ik heb werkelijk niets tegen welke politiek en
welke geloofsovertuiging ook. Ik heb wel iets tegen mensen die al dan niet
moedwillig en al dan niet met behulp Google, geloofachtige kretologie
bijeen verzamelen en daar anderen (mij in ieder geval) mee lastig vallen.
Als dat ook nog in een voor mij onleesbare taal (o.a. Hebrew, Arab, o.i.d.)
gebeurt, op een discussieforum waar ik dit niet verwacht, ja, dan haak ik
af. Ik wil namelijk wel graag lezen en vooral ook begrijpen wat er staat.
Als het iets met Nedersaksisch of andere bovengenoemde talen te maken heeft
wil ik er zelfs m'n stinkende best voor doen om het te begrijpen maar
allerlei geloofsuitingen, wensen of misschien wel verwensingen in korte
zinnen die buiten mijn westerse norm vallen, zijn voor mij geen punt van
discussie. Een aantal zaken - waaronder politiek en geloof - kun je m.i.
niet afdoen met slaken een paar kreten.

Graag was ik een nieuwe topic gestart over bijvoorbeeld dat 'slaken'
hierboven of over de erg interessante bodemvondsten die onlangs zijn gedaan
onder de gevangenis 'Santa Fu' van Hamburg (Dld) (zie: Hamburger
Abendblatt, 31-10-2011). Dat heeft waarschijnlijk heel veel, zelfs met het
ontstaan van ons Nedersaksisch te maken. Maar nee, ik doe het niet. Ik
luister nog een poosje en wellicht haak ik dan geruisloos af.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Dear Piet,

Apparently you understand more languages that are used here than do many
other members. According to our rules, any language may be used.

Beste Piet,

Blijkbaar begrijp je meer talen die hier worden gebruikt dan doen veel
andere leden. Volgens onze regels, kan elke taal gebruikt worden.

MVG/Regards,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Wo! Easy, guys!

Surely there's some misunderstanding.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 16 18:28:48 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:28:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.16 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.NOV.2011.102848.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: mike.keach at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.15 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]

Really. Everyone take three healing breaths.

[Mike Keach]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Good advice, Mike.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

** ----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.15 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]

Insha'allah that you are right. Sorry for all this. Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Language use

Wo! Easy, guys!

Surely there's some misunderstanding.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Thanks, Ingmar.

I personally did not think that Piet's posting came from a place of
intolerance. I rather believe that it was provoked by his eagerness to
understand everything that is posted here.

Posting in Lowlands languages is, of course, most appropriate and reaches
the largest number of readers. Among them, English is optimal in this
sense. But the use of other Lowlands language varieties is encouraged
because of their relevance and because of the fact that our subscribers
want to be exposed to them for learning purposes.

However, this does not mean that other languages are excluded, especially
in cases like welcoming messages and felicitations. A sizable percentage of
our members are from places other than Europe, North America, Australia and
New Zealand, and a lot of them are not Christian or even of Christian
background. I want all of them to feel as welcome and validated as everyone
else.

Global communication is advancing rapidly, and Lowlands-L is an
international community in which all sorts of voices can and should be
heard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Language use"

Beste Ingmar,

You wrote:

What are you talking about, Bult, what's bothering you? Hopefully not my
wishes for the sacrifice Festival, you won't be that little-minded? It
can't be that we can wish people a good Saint Nicholas or Christmas
according to you, but not Khanuka, Ramadhan or Holi festival?
Why couldn't we, maybe because these religions don't belong in the low
lands, according to you?


Not talking about Piet Bult here, but just to give you a general idea of
how tolerant some of our compatriots are:

Helft Vlamingen stoort zich aan vreemde talen op straat - De
Standaard<http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF20111115_009>

Yes, I'm living in a small country (these days). 'Nuff said.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 01:30:34 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:30:34 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.16 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.NOV.2011.173034.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Lowlands-L - 16. November 2011 - Volume 01
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.15 (01 [EN-NDS-NL]

Hallo all' Lowlanners.

Ick kann dat gor nich so recht verstahn, dat sowat as ein Unfr?den ?nner de
Maten upkamen is. Ick b?n mi ?mmer wedder wiss, wat mi Lowlands bed?den
deit. Lowlands is f?r mi so wat as ein Sod. Hier heff ick denn' besten Weg
funn'n, wo ick noch v?l, bannig v?l taulihren kann, nich blot Spraken
seggen mi tau, ok dat woroewer beraden ward un all' dat, wat mit Spraken
tau  daun hett, un ok de Mitmakers, de Minschen.
Wi s?nd doch weltwied ein grotorrig Sprakenbom un uns' Baas Ron hett de
beste Ort un Wies', uns ?mmer tau Sied tau stahn. Wo kann man h?t noch so
feine un klauke Maten finn'n. Mi bed?den sei all' v?l un ick h?g grot
Hochachten. Wi k?nen doch all'ns in Frieheit mit Pli un Fantasie angahn, wi
hebben doch denn' besten Wiespahl, un wenn wi de V?rschriften inholl'n,
denn kann nicks nich scheif lopen. Keinein leggt uns K?den an, wi all' s?nd
frie. Frieheit un Respekt gellt ok f?r denn' Gloven, un wo riek is de, de
noch gl?wen kann.
Uns' Baas h?lt dat St?er (Steuer) fast un dat m?t man em hoch danken. Ick
heff mi oft eins wat utdruckt vun w?gen de Sprak, so taun Bispill
Nederlands Sprak. Dor kann ick v?l von afl?sen, woans Plattd??tsch un
Nedderland sick m?gen. Ick heff mi so gor v?r poor Johr (as ick noch nich
bi LL wier) up denn' Flohmark ein grotorrig W??rbauk k?fft "KRAMERS DUITS
WOORDEN BOEK NederlandsDuits/DuitsNederlands VAN GOOR ZONEN.
Un mit mien Ingelsch lihren b?n ick ?mmer noch taugang, dat m?t noch
riepen, un k?nn je sien, dat ick mi denn eins unvermaudens mit dis' Sprak
mellen dau. Man, dat brukt all' sien Tied.
Oewer up Lowlands lat ick nicks nich kamen, ick w??t kein b?ter St?d. De
Spraken bringen uns doch neger un jedein Sprak het ehr eigen Melodei
(Sound), wo k?nn ick s?ss sowat noch finn'n... Nu hebben wi unsen besten
Sprakenbom un sien W?tteln s?nd eddel un holl'n ut.

IDIOM: Heraus mit der Sprache! *Out with it! *Rut mit de Sprak!
So heff ick mi nu up mien Oort tau Wuurd mellt.
Ick kann ?mmer un will wedder unsen Ron danken un ok all' Fr?nn'.
Mit best Gr?uten.

Hanne
ut Schwerin

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 02:20:31 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:20:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.NOV.2011.182031.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Dear Lowlanders,

I've long been intrigued by the semantic development of the word complex
"dear" within the Germanic languages, and I wonder if you have any
information to add.

"Dear" and its relatives can mean the following:

   1. highly valued (dear to one's heart)
   2. expensive (having a high price)

Clearly, the common denominator is "valuable" or "valued."

In the English-speaking world there appears to be a split:

   1. American English uses "dear" only in the first-mentioned sense, with
   idiomatic exceptions (i.e., supposedly archaisms) such as "to pay a dear
   price" or "to pay dearly."
   2. Non-American English, at least many varieties of it, uses "dear" in
   both senses. Thus, for instance, in Australian English you may say
   something like "Computers are very expensive" and "Computers are very
   dear." The latter sounds strange to most American.

How does this play out in related language varieties?

   - Scots:* dear** ** *both 'expensive' and 'dear'
   - West Frisian: *djoer* both 'expensive' and 'dear'
   - Low Saxon: *d??r *'expensive' (somewhat archaic also as 'dear (to
   one's heart))'
   - Dutch: *duur* 'expensive' (?)
   - Limburgish: *deur* (*d?r*) 'expensive'
   - Afrikaans: *duur* 'expensive' (?, but *dierbaar* 'valuable',
   'esteemed')
   - German: *teuer* 'expensive' (somewhat archaic also as 'dear (to one's
   heart)')
   - Yiddish: *tayer* (?????) both 'expensive' and 'dear'
   - Danish: *dyr* 'expensive'
   - Norwegian: *dyr* 'expensive'
   - Swedish:* dyr* 'expensive'
   - Icelandic: *d?r** *'expensive'

Once we get into the ancestral language varieties it becomes a different
game, and the two meanings will eventually merge. In other words, somewhere
along the line a semantic split occurred.

Any further information or simply thoughts?

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 18:40:14 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:40:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.17 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.104014.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.16 (01) [EN]


Thanks Ron and the others who reacted or just read,

I hope so Ron. For the great part of members here who're not fluent in
Dutch, I'll translate Piet Bult's original message, to which I reacted so
uncalmly again:

"...Dear Lowlanders,
 Why since the "Sacrifice Feast" was brought up here, suddenly it's very
quiet at LL-L, I wondered ...

With reading of various Low Saxon dialects but also German, Dutch, Frisian,
Flemish, French, English, Afrikaans, etc. I have little trouble. And no,
believe me, I really have nothing against any religion and politics either.
I have something against people who either deliberately or otherwise and
whether or not using Google, like to bother me and others with their noise
about faith. If that is in an unreadable language (including Hebrew, Arab,
or the like) for me, in a discussion forum where I do not expect, yes, I
occasionally hook off. Because I would like to read and above all
understand what it says. If it is something about Low Saxon, or other
aforementioned languages I do even my stinking best to understand, but many
expressions about faith, religious wishes or even curses in short sentences
that are outside my western standard, I don't want to discuss about. Some
subjects - such as political and religious ones - can only provoke me to
utter a few screams.

 I would like to start a new thread, for example that "heave" over the very
interesting archaeological finds made recently in the prison 'Santa Fu'
from Hamburg (Ger) (see: Hamburger Abendblatt, 10/31/2011). That has to do
probably a lot with, or may be even essential for the emergence of our Low
Saxon. But no, I will not.
I'll listen here for a while and then I could hook off silently.
 With kind Stellingwerf greetings,
 Peter Bult

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language use

Thanks, Ingmar.

I personally did not think that Piet's posting came from a place of
intolerance. I rather believe that it was provoked by his eagerness to
understand everything that is posted here.

Posting in Lowlands languages is, of course, most appropriate and reaches
the largest number of readers. Among them, English is optimal in this
sense. But the use of other Lowlands language varieties is encouraged
because of their relevance and because of the fact that our subscribers
want to be exposed to them for learning purposes.

However, this does not mean that other languages are excluded, especially
in cases like welcoming messages and felicitations. A sizable percentage of
our members are from places other than Europe, North America, Australia and
New Zealand, and a lot of them are not Christian or even of Christian
background. I want all of them to feel as welcome and validated as everyone
else.

Global communication is advancing rapidly, and Lowlands-L is an
international community in which all sorts of voices can and should be
heard.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA


----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Thanks, Ingmar.

I suggest we allow this subject to rest now.

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 18:45:13 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:45:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.104513.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 17 November 2011 - Volume 02
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]


I've never noted before how the Scandinavian forms are very close to the
basic Germanic "animal" or "beast" words (ON *dyr*, NE "deer", German
*Tier*etc.).  Is this likely to be coincidence, or is it related to
the
association of wealth and animals, like "fee" and OE *feoh* etc?

Incidentally a friend in South Africa used to say her husband was
"dierbaar" - she joked it meant half animal, half barbarian!

Paul
Derby ("Animal Town")
England

----------


 From: Luc Vanbrabant lucv32 at gmail.com

 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]

Dag Ron,

West-Vlaams:
dier diere (expensive)
dierbaar (dearly beloved)
dieren, verdieren, dierzen (r niet uitspreken) = duurder worden
te dieren danse = aan een zeer hoge prijs

Nederlands:
duurbaar / dierbaar (dearly beloved).
duurte = expensiveness
duurzaam = durable, lasting

Groetjes

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

 ----------


 From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]

Ron wrote:
>
> Dutch: duur 'expensive' (?)
> Limburgish: deur (d?r) 'expensive'
> Afrikaans: duur 'expensive' (?, but dierbaar 'valuable', 'esteemed')

Dutch also has dierbaar in the meaning of 'dear to one's heart' /
'valuable'.

cheers,
Henry

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 17 20:31:02 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:31:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (03) [EN-FY]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.123102.0800.>

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 L O W L A N D S - L - 17 November 2011 - Volume 03
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From: Henno Brandsma hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Dear Lowlanders,

I've long been intrigued by the semantic development of the word complex
"dear" within the Germanic languages, and I wonder if you have any
information to add.

"Dear" and its relatives can mean the following:

   1. highly valued (dear to one's heart)
   2. expensive (having a high price)

Clearly, the common denominator is "valuable" or "valued."

In the English-speaking world there appears to be a split:

   1. American English uses "dear" only in the first-mentioned sense, with
   idiomatic exceptions (i.e., supposedly archaisms) such as "to pay a dear
   price" or "to pay dearly."
   2. Non-American English, at least many varieties of it, uses "dear" in
   both senses. Thus, for instance, in Australian English you may say
   something like "Computers are very expensive" and "Computers are very
   dear." The latter sounds strange to most American.

How does this play out in related language varieties?

   - Scots:* dear** ** *both 'expensive' and 'dear'
   - West Frisian: *djoer* both 'expensive' and 'dear'


Nee, djoer kin yn it Westerlauwer Frysk allinnich op priis slaan.
Al bestiet der in, tinkt my, lienwurd "dierber".

Groetnis,

Henno
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 18 07:31:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:31:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2011.11.17 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.233143.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 17 November 2011 - Volume 04
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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>LL-L
Subject: LL-L

<read halfway down in English>

< my final posting>

Beste Ron en Allemaal,
In mijn bericht heb ik juist niet expliciet bedoeld te zeggen dat de taal
het grootste probleem is.
Nadat ik Ron zijn bericht las van 2011.11.16 (01) begreep ik dat mijn post
aan hem priv? waarschijnlijk niet in zijn postbus is aangekomen. Daarom
reageer ik nog een allerlaatste keer via de List. Ook omdat er nogal
geraden wordt naar de bedoeling van mijn bericht wil ik nog eenmaal aan
jullie proberen duidelijk te maken wat ik wel heb bedoeld.

In het algemeen
Geloof me (zo je dat nog niet wist), dat Nederlanders - inclusief mij zelf
- een erg tolerant, misschien wel het meest tolerante volk van de hele
wereld zijn. Ik geef toe, er varandert momenteel wel het een en ander...;-)

Ik meen voldoende ervaring te hebben om te weten dat je erg moet oppassen
om over sommige onderwerpen zoals bijv. politiek, religie, geaardheid van
mensen en dat soort zaken te spreken op een open (of zelfs geredigeerd)
forum waar dat forum niet in is gespecialiseerd omdat je naar mijn
bescheiden mening geen discussie kunt voeren over dit soort onderwerpen in
slechts enkele korte zinnen. Er zullen in dat geval altijd leden zijn die
niet of verkeerd begrijpen, of worden begrepen...
De meeste oorlogen zijn begonnen door dit soort onbegrip, al helemaal als
er religie aan te pas komt, nietwaar?

Hier in mijn omgeving sta ik bij sommigen bekend als een soort van
beschouwelijk filosoof en vraag mij zelf (maar ook anderen) vaak een mening
af om daarmee tot een discussie te komen. Ik weet het, erg veel mensen
hebben moeite met het voeren een discussie op deze wijze...

Denk je eens in: je bent als geboren Nederlander, politieman in Amsterdam
en hebt samen met twee collega's van bijv. van Bonairse herkomst een werk
op te knappen. Dan vraag ik mij af: hoe zou jij je voelen als die twee
collega's telkens maar in het Papiaments tegen alkaar spreken (wat jij niet
verstaat)..?

Ja hoor, ik heb er alle begrip voor dat Ron nieuwkomers op de LL-List
verwelkomt in hun eigen taal. Geen probleem. Maar verder vraag ik mij af of
al die beste (religieuze) wensen over en weer van iedereen, wel diep uit
het hart komen. Is het veelal niet eerder een kwestie van gewoonte, zonder
diepere gedachte, of zelfs provocatie..?

Ik ben opgegroeid in de westerse wereld met katholieken, christelijken en
veel andere religies om me heen. En ja, ik heb de hele Koran, Bijbel en
KamaSutra (oeps!) gelezen/gespeld. Dat laatste boek vond ik het leukste,
hoe meer ik de Bijbel las (die ik zelfs helemaal vertaalde), hoe minder ik
geloof in het katholisisme, christendom en de meeste andere religies. Ik ga
je niet vertellen wat ik van de Koran vind maar ik zou niet graag leven met
de Sharia. Volgens mij is mijn vrouw meer waard dan een geit en ik
verplicht haar niet een boerka te dragen. Ik geloof in een individuele
vrijheid voor zowel mannen als vrouwen op gelijke voet en laat het laatste
oordeel graag over aan de/een Almachtige.

Conclusie
Wat ik met mijn bericht probeerde uit te vinden - na een periode van stilte
- hoe andere leden van deze LL-list denken over dat soort van vraagstukken
op deze list, die naar mijn mening een (Lowlands) taalforum is. En laat ik
nogmaals duidelijk zijn: ik houd niet van provocaties in korte zinnen
aangaande religie en dat soort zaken. Het voelt voor mij dus niet (meer)
goed aan om in relatie te staan met mensen die het blijkbaar juist leuk
vinden op die confronterende wijze te moeten provoceren.

Het spijt mij voor mijn aandeel in dit onbehouwen gedrag op deze LL-List.
Aanvaard mijn excuses daarvoor...

Ik ga niet meer in casu reageren op de harde woorden van Ingmar omdat ik
bang ben dat daar alleen nog maar meer onbegrip uit voort zal komen. Ik ga
mij nu afmelden... (Ik weet het zeker, ik zal jullie nog missen!)

Maar niet nadat ik Ron persoonlijk hartelijk wil bedanken voor het goede
werk wat hij hier doet...
Misschien weet niemand beter dan ik, hoeveel werk, tijd, toewijding en
energie het kost om de LL-List te starten en vooral ook vol te houden...

Ik heb dat zeer op prijs gesteld. Dankjewel Ron! Ik dank ook de leden van
de list met de vele antwoorden op mijn vragen over onze prachtige oude taal
en de goede tijd die ik met jullie had. Dank daarvoor!
Beste Ron, ik wens je werkelijk het allerbeste met je LL-List...
Mit een (alderlaeste) vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

PS: mocht iemand nog eens iets over onze prachtige taal willen weten waar
ik je misschien bij kan helpen dan mag je me natuurlijk altijd rechtstreeks
benaderen...

Dear Ron and All,
In my posting I just have not explicit meant to say that language was my
biggest problem.
According to Ron's reply in his posting of 2011.11.16 (01) I understood
that my posting to him in privat did not reach his mailbox. That's wy I
come to you all (for the very last time) this way and because of all the
guests around the reason of my indignation I'll try to make my point more
clear.

In general
Beleave me (as you already didn't know), the Dutch people - including
myself - are very, maybe even the most tolerant people in the world. Okay,
at this moment, times are changing a bit...;-)

I think that I have enough experience to know that you always must be aware
(or is it even attentive?) to talk about politics, religion, personal
nature of people a.s.o. on an open (and even on a moderated) forum that is
not specialized in that kind of subjects, because you can't have a
discussion about such topics in just some short paragraphs. There always
will be one or more member(s) who do(es) misunderstand...
Most wars have started because those misunderstandings, aspecially if there
is also religion connected, aren't they?

Here in our neighberhood by some people I'm known as a sort of a
philosopher and frequently ask myself (and others) for an opinion to come
to a real discussion. I know, lots and lots of people can't handle
conversation that way...

Imaging: you're an authentic Dutch policeman in Amsterdam and you have to
do a job with two colleges who came origin from - lets say - Bonaire. Half
the way down the two of them do constantly talk in Papiamentu (wich you do
not understand). Then, how would you feel..?

Yes, I can realy understand that our Ron sends a welcome in any language to
a new member. No problem with me. But furtheron, I'm wondering, do come all
those (i.c. religious) best wishes from the bottom of the haert? (not
meaning Ron's wishes.)

I've been grown up in the western world with katholics, cristians and lots
of other religious people around. Yes, I read the whole Koran, Bible and
KamaSutra (oops!). The lastone I'd like most, the more I read the Bible
(whom I translated in Stellingwarfs), the less I beleave in katholicism and
cristianity. I'm not gonna say what I think about the Koran but I don't
like to live by the rules of the Sharia. In my opinion my wife is more
worth then a goat and I don't let her walk in a bourka. I beleave in
individual freedom for man and woman and let the last judgment to the/any
Almighty.

The clou...
What I was trying to do in my posting, was to find out - after a period of
silence - how other members of this LL-list think about that sort of
questions on this list, wich is in my opinion is a (Lowlands)
language-forum. And let me be clear again: I don't like provocating
shortcuts about religions and things like that. For me, it just doesn't
feel good anylonger to be conected with people who seam to like (religious)
provocations in such a hard way.

I'm very sorry for my part in the misbehavior on this LL-List.
Accept my apologys (also for my poor writing in English!)...

I'll not reply on Ingmar's hard words. Any word again will be
misunderstood. I'll signof the LL-List now... (I'm quite sure, I'm gonna
miss you!)

But not after I thank you, Ron in person for the good job you're doing with
this LL-List...
Perhaps nobody knows better then I do, how much work, time, obligation and
energy it costs to keep 'm up...
I've really appreciated it. Thanks! I also thank the members with there
good suggestions about our lovely Lowland-language and where I had a good
time with. Thanks!
Dear Ron, I really wish you and your LL-L all the best...
With (very) last greetings from Stellingwarf (Frl, Nl.),
Piet Bult

PS: if you think I can be helpful in some special affairs among our
beautiful language than you may contact me directly, of course..

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 18 07:47:56 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:47:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (06) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.17.NOV.2011.234756.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 17 November 2011 - Volume 06
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From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (03) [EN-FY]

At 03:31 PM 17/11/2011, Ron wrote:


   1. American English uses "dear" only in the first-mentioned sense, with
   idiomatic exceptions (i.e., supposedly archaisms) such as "to pay a dear
   price" or "to pay dearly."


My wife and I do not agree.  First of all, I suspect that the common root
meaning is "rare".  Secondly, it is only to be expected in the creolization
of English, that items that were "costly" would have been more affordable
to the upper classes which of course use far more words of French
derivation (such as "expensive").  Of course, since "expensive" is far more
common, people who have learned English as a second language are far less
likely to know this meaning.  Also, I do not understand why you would say
that "pay dearly" is idomatic, as opposed to a situation where "expensive"
would be inappropriate.  I think that we have not yet replaced the word
"dear" with another in cases where the cost is not financial.  Of course,
the Anglo-Saxon speaking lower classes were more likely to have to "pay
dearly with their lives" in the time of war.


   1. Non-American English, at least many varieties of it, uses "dear" in
   both senses. Thus, for instance, in Australian English you may say?
   something like "Computers are very expensive" and "Computers are very
   dear." The latter sounds strange to most American.


I'm an American and I don't find it strange, just infrequent.

Ed Alexander, Ontario

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Semantics"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

I've long been intrigued by the semantic development of the word complex
"dear" within the Germanic languages, and I wonder if you have any
information to add.

"Dear" and its relatives can mean the following:

   1. highly valued (dear to one's heart)
   2. expensive (having a high price)

Clearly, the common denominator is "valuable" or "valued."

In the English-speaking world there appears to be a split:

   1. American English uses "dear" only in the first-mentioned sense, with
   idiomatic exceptions (i.e., supposedly archaisms) such as "to pay a dear
   price" or "to pay dearly."
   2. Non-American English, at least many varieties of it, uses "dear" in
   both senses. Thus, for instance, in Australian English you may say
   something like "Computers are very expensive" and "Computers are very
   dear." The latter sounds strange to most American.


Brabantish knows "duur/dier" exclusively as a word meaning "expensive"
(geographical distribution roughly follows the pattern of vier/vuur ~
fire/Feuer). Not as a word meaning something like "caro" in Italian. By the
way, "dierbaar" is totally "school language", it's no part whatsoever of
the vernacular. More in general, any word having the suffix "baar" is not a
traditional Brabantish word, it's a germanism.

Could it be that the literal meaning of "dear" already got pushed away by
"expensive" in English during Anglo-Norman times? In uptown language that
is...in lower echelons the original meaning may have been preserved longer.

"Dear", as in "Dear Henry", has no cognate in Brabantish. "Lieve" is
predominantly used when an amorous relationship exists between the two
(contrasting with Saxon I believe). On a general level, as far as I know,
only "Beste ..." will do.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Thanks, everyone.

Here's something for you to sink your teeth into:

In Scots, *lief* [li(?)f] ~ [li(?)v...] means 'dear', 'beloved', thus
corresponding to what in Dutch is *lief* [li(?)f] ~ [li(?)v...] and in Low
Saxon is *leef* ... [l??f] ~ [l??v...] ~ [la?f] ~ [la?v...].

Dutch ("Flemish") influence in Scotland?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]

Hallo "dear" Lowlanners.

V?rweg hier ein Riemel von Gerda Uhthoff 2.8.1896-21.10.1988
(Wi kennten uns.)

*PLANT' HELLE BLAUMEN
*
Gl?ck in de Leiw, dat singt von s?lben, -
wenn't Hart tau vull is, juucht de Mund,
man trurig Leiw swiggt in sik rinner,
ward nachtens blot in Tranen kund.

Dor m?ten anner denn von singen,
de Dichtersl??d, dat olle Leed
von de verlaten Leiw up Ierden,
de d?ster Blaum in't bunte Beet.

Plant' helle Blaumen in den Goren
all von jug Leiw, wenn't jichtens geiht,
de d?stern maken trurig Harten; -
wo sch??n is't doch, wenn'n Gl?ck utseiht*!  * auss?en

*leif, *-ee-, flekt. -*w* Adj. und Adv, lieb
*1. *erfreulich, angenehm: 'Dat sy ju allen lef edder leyt' Re.
Osterspiele; 'it wer ock dem Rade leff edder leit' (Rostock; dem
Lebensm?den *is 't *(das Sterben) *eenen Dag so leef as den annern; dat
Leiwst un dat Best updragen *zur Mahlzeit; adverbial gern: *wo leif sei dat
nehm! *(1887)HARed;  *moegen Sei dat nich so lif liden? (1889) *SCH?/Schlagsd.;
bes. wie hd. f?r fehlende Steigerung von gern im Kompar. und Superl.:
'Kumpt hir jemant here varen, Deme wil ik alzo m?ten; He mochte sik lever
laten des kynkhostes b?ten' Red. Ost.; 'He wolde lever syn, dar ein
Nachmeisters Knecht Ein Span vul d?nne Supp (Jauche) up sinen  LAUR (Johann
Lauremberg); *he s?ht eenen lever sinken as fleeten *(schwimmen); *hei s?ht
ein leiwer gahn as kamen; leiwer tweimal mit Gemack as einmal mit gebrack *vom
geladenen Wagen (1887); *leiwer ahn Abendbrot tau Bedd' gahn as mit
Schulden upstahn; leewer  'n Magen verrenken as 'n Wirt wat schenken.
**2. *im Sinne der Neigung bes. zum andern Geschlecht; so *leif hebben *lieben;
'nademe . . . de Welt . . . dat ere Leeff hefft'; *de Uhl heft eer Uelhken
so leev, a? de Duve er D?veken; wenn . . . Nahwers Kinner sick leiw hewwen *
F.Reut;
*leef hebben *k?ssen; so auch in der Wechselrede von Mutter und
Tochter: *Herrjemine,
wat deit he di? Hett he di ok leef? Wat wull he nich, wat schull he nich!
Wenn 't dor man  noch bi blew! HA/Red; **ironisch*: *he is 'n Soehn, oewer
ok 'n leewen! - seem. sick leewen Mann maken (*sich beliebt ..Huh, Programm
abgest?rzt.., gerettet) also (sich beliebt machen, sich einschmeicheln beim
Kapit?n); *substantivisch *in der Anrede: *min Leiwen*; im Sprw.: *dei wat
Leiws hett, dei geiht  'e nah, un de wat Scheiws hett, de smitt ' e nah; *im
*Superlativ:
**Leiwste *Liebste; *formelhaft *h?ufig als Attribut bei Substantiven
mannigfacher Art wie: *dei leiw Gott, dat leiw Brot, dat leiw Veih, dei
leiw S?nn, dei leiw' Ierd', dei leiwe Lust, m?nnigein leiwen Dag, dei leiwe
lange Nacht; *oft *verh?llend*: *dat leiwe *(k?mmerliche bi?chen) *L?ben;
dat leiw W?der *(Unwetter, Gewitter); *min leiwe *(gro?e) *Not; v?r luter
leiwe *(gro?er) *Angst; dat leiwe *(schlimme) *Kuurnk?pen; dat leiw *(b?se)
*Leiden; so v?l leiwe *(harte) *Sl?g'; *Als* Ausruf des Bedauerns oder der
Verwunderung: **du leiwe Tit.
**3. *Dim.: 'min Lefken' (mein Liebchen; ebenso im Tanzlied *Gos up de D?l:
mit min Leewken. **Im Tiergespr?ch: **Herrjes', min Leefken! **auch  hd.: *f?r
die Sonne *seggen weck Kl?rchen, weck Liebchen; **Koseform*: Leiwing.
Zss.: *hart-, unleif; f?rleif. *Mnd. *l?f.
*Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert
* **
*Noch 'n Riemel von Gerda Uhthoff:

*    L?WENSLANG*

Verlaten Leiw, de gl??wt,
dat all's sik wedder wend',

verlaten Leiw, de t??wt un t??wt,
dat all's in'n Gauden end'. -

Un seggst du, dat s' nich gl?wen sall,
denn kickt s' di an so bang,

un seggst du, dat s' nich t?wen sall,
denn flustert s': "L?wenslang."

So, dat wier mal *dit *un *dat *von leiw/leew *Leiw/Leew*

Un mien Gr?uten is ok *leiw *meint.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 18 19:31:21 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:31:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.18 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.NOV.2011.113121.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (06) [EN-NDS]

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics"

[...]

Brabantish knows "duur/dier" exclusively as a word meaning "expensive"
(geographical distribution roughly follows the pattern of vier/vuur ~
fire/Feuer). Not as a word meaning something like "caro" in Italian. By the
way, "dierbaar" is totally "school language", it's no part whatsoever of
the vernacular. More in general, any word having the suffix "baar" is not a
traditional Brabantish word, it's a germanism.

Could it be that the literal meaning of "dear" already got pushed away by
"expensive" in English during Anglo-Norman times? In uptown language that
is...in lower echelons the original meaning may have been preserved longer.

"Dear", as in "Dear Henry", has no cognate in Brabantish. "Lieve" is
predominantly used when an amorous relationship exists between the two
(contrasting with Saxon I believe). On a general level, as far as I know,
only "Beste ..." will do.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

Hi,

Now I get confused; and so it has to be.

In dutch [of the north] we have 'dierbaar' and I've never read 'duurbaar'.
Because of 'dier' one would assume that 'dierbaar' came from the dutch in
the south [e.g. imported by the brabantish/flamish people who came to
Holland some centuries ago].

I would almost suspect that 'dierbaar' came in use by writings [i.e. books
that were widely read].

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (06) [EN-NDS]

Hallo, ick b?n all wedder dor.

Nu kam ick noch up (*lieb) teuer.
*Dor kann ick nich v?l anbeiden, liekers k?nn dat noch sien Bed?den hebben.

Bi Perfesser Vo?lo heff ick man blot dit funn'n: as Adv.:'ein duerbar
werdich wordt'.

Neues hochdeutsch-plattdeutsches  W?rterbuch von Renate Herrmann-Winter: *
teuer** d?er,
**1. *einen hohen Preis habend *Syn **nich to betahlen *usw..
*2. *sehr gesch?tzt, lieb, wert, *Syn leif sin.

*Tsch?, dat heff ick nich dacht, ok up Platt kannst wat mit anfangen. Un
woans k?nn man dat so schriewen: *"Mien leif sin Fr?nd" ? *Beg?ng is *leif
sin *hier nich.
*
*DUDEN 7: *teuer: *Die Herkunft des *altgerm. *Adjektivs (*mhd. *tiure, *ahd.
*tiuri, *niederl. *duur, *engl. *dear [s. Darling], *schwed. *dyr) ist
unbekannt. Zu 'teuer' geh?ren die unter  *dauern *"leid tun"  W?rter.
Schon in den ?lteren Sprachzust?nden wurde es in den heutigen Bedeutungen
"lieb", wert, hochgesch?tzt; viel kostend" gebraucht. Abl.: *Teuerung
*"Preisanstieg"
*(sp?tmhd. *tiurung, urspr?nglich nur "Preis"); *verteuern *(*mhd. *
vertiuren).
Hinweis auf *beteuern.*
*
*Un nu gah ick in de K?k, denn mien Middag?ten "Gr?uns un Ket?ffels/T?ften"
is mi wat *leif un d?er.

*Hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 18 21:20:20 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:20:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.18 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.NOV.2011.132020.0800.>

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From:   Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.
roger.thijs at euro-support.be<roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.15 (03) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Semantics
> Dear Lowlanders,
> I've long been intrigued by the semantic development of the word complex
"dear" within the Germanic languages, and I wonder if you have any
information to add.

In my West-Limburgish ?duur? can mean:
- expensive
- a bull (Dutch: stier)


For animal (in Dutch ?dier?) we use ?b?s? (cf. Dutch ?beest?)

In French we have cher for dear in both senses:

cher ami: dear friend

cher: expensive.

Regards,
Roger

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 19 19:49:13 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:49:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.19 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.NOV.2011.114913.0800.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
 <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.18 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Dear Lowlanders,

as Hanne points out, in German the words "teuer" and "lieb" form a sort of
parallel. I think the meaning "lieb, wert, hochgesch?tzt" might have been
first, and later the meaning "viel kostend" has been added as a
consequence, when money came into consideration. (However, there are sorts
of people for whom the logic goes the opposite way; first they think of
money, and then they love what they have paid for dearly...)

What I wish to add is only this: There is a similar parallel between "Lob"
and "Preis". "Preis" must have been identical with "Lob" at first, and when
money came into consideration, the meaning of one of the words shifted to
"what you have to pay" (because it is so well worth its "Lob"). (Of course
for the aforementioned perverse sort of people maybe the money comes first
again, the the Lob.) That shift of meaning can't be very old; as one of the
few Germans familiar with the Evangelisches Kirchengesangbuch I know dozens
of hymns, where "Lob und Preis" are offered to god, ...

O w?r ich da, o st?nd ich schon
du reicher Gott, vor Deinem Thron
und tr?ge meine Palmen!
so wollt ich nach der Engel Weis?
erh?hen Deines Namens Preis
mit tausend sch?nen Psalmen.

Text from 1653. And to christmas we sing:

Heut' schlie?t er wieder auf das Tor
zum sch?nen Paradeis;
der Cherub steht nicht mehr davor,
Gott sei Lob, Ehr und Preis.

The latter Text 1560. -- The like thing happened to "billig", which meant
"angemessen" at first, and only later changed to *cheap*. In combinations
it still has its old meaning ("Das ist recht und billig", etwas billigen,
missbilligen usw.).

What I like about this: All the words concerning money (in their today
meaning) have their roots in "true values" and were only borrowed out by
the financial sort of things. Today we are aware of a strong difference
between what in german is called Realwirtschaft and the so-called
Finanzwirtschaft (which is the thing that, you know, in these last 3 years
has been very much... ahem...). "Oh, oh," they say, "bisher betrifft die
Krise ja nur die Finanzwirtschaft, aber wenn sie auf die Realwirtschaft
durchschl?gt...!" (Which in Germany it still doesn't, while in other
countries it does.) And Language is purely Realwirtschaft! Real values. --
Are there any words in any lowlands language that have their origin in
Finanzwirtschaft, i.e. that were meant for money and money only?

Hartlich!

Marlou


From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.17 (06) [EN-NDS]

Hallo, ick b?n all wedder dor.

Nu kam ick noch up (*lieb) teuer.*
Dor kann ick nich v?l anbeiden, liekers k?nn dat noch sien Bed?den hebben.

Bi Perfesser Vo?lo heff ick man blot dit funn'n: as Adv.:'ein duerbar
werdich wordt'.

Neues hochdeutsch-plattdeutsches  W?rterbuch von Renate Herrmann-Winter: *
teuer** d?er,*
*1. *einen hohen Preis habend *Syn **nich to betahlen *usw..
*2. *sehr gesch?tzt, lieb, wert, *Syn leif sin.*

Tsch?, dat heff ick nich dacht, ok up Platt kannst wat mit anfangen. Un
woans k?nn man dat so schriewen: *"Mien leif sin Fr?nd" ? *Beg?ng is *leif
sin *hier nich.

DUDEN 7: *teuer: *Die Herkunft des *altgerm. *Adjektivs (*mhd. *tiure, *ahd.
*tiuri, *niederl. *duur, *engl. *dear [s. Darling], *schwed. *dyr) ist
unbekannt. Zu 'teuer' geh?ren die unter  *dauern *"leid tun"  W?rter.
Schon in den ?lteren Sprachzust?nden wurde es in den heutigen Bedeutungen
"lieb", wert, hochgesch?tzt; viel kostend" gebraucht. Abl.: *Teuerung
*"Preisanstieg"
*(sp?tmhd. *tiurung, urspr?nglich nur "Preis"); *verteuern *(*mhd. *
vertiuren).
Hinweis auf *beteuern.*

Un nu gah ick in de K?k, denn mien Middag?ten "Gr?uns un Ket?ffels/T?ften"
is mi wat *leif un d?er.*

Hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 20 22:40:58 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:40:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.20.NOV.2011.144058.0800.>

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From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer mrdreyer at lantic.net
 <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.19 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Dear Marlou, Ron & All:

Subject: LL-L "Semantics"

Further to the pairs '"teuer" & "lieb", "dier" & "lief" (Afrikaans - I see
a drift here) "dear" & "love".

I have difficulty with the word 'dear'*=*'valuable' being originally
associated with 'deer'='animal'.
The Afrikaans for valuable is 'duur', & for animal is 'dier'. In this
context the concept 'dierbaar' is I think the only term in the Taal
associated with an item that is cherished but *not* a negotiable commodity.
It is closer to the English 'darling'. The Old English 'Deor' was not a
darling but a fugitive in hiding: Reference, the poem "Deor"

The Migratory Period Rune 'Feoh' with the 'F' value refers to 'livestock'
on the one hand & 'fee' on the other; Afrikaans has 'vee' for the first &
'foei' for the second. This is a sensible & inevitable association going
right back to the Indo-Germanic, right? Here is a traceable pair for
Afrikaans!

As for "Lob" & "Preis": English "praise" & "prize" (now this is getting
interesting) with which I associate with Afrikaans "lof" & "prys", my
Kritzinger, Steyn, Schoonees & Cronje (Afrikaanse Woordeboek. Vertalend,
Afrikaans : Engels) has this to offer. 'Lof' = praise, eulogy,
commendation, laudation. 'Prys' = price, value, cost, charge, award,
premium, prize, praise &c.

The first, 'lof', may be a tribute but it is not a commodity. The second,
'prys', may be, but is it a synonym altogether? Not inevitably.

We still offer Lof & Prys to God.

Hearty greetings all round!
Hartlike groete alom!

Yrs,
Mark.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 21 03:07:33 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:07:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.20.NOV.2011.190733.0800.>

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From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca
 <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20 (01) [EN]

At 05:40 PM 20/11/2011, Mark or Ruth wrote:

I have difficulty with the word 'dear'*=*'valuable' being originally
associated with 'deer'='animal'.


I submit that in fact they were not associated originally, and come from
separate IE roots.

>From the Online Etymological Dictionary:

*DEER*  O.E. deor "animal, beast," from P.Gmc. *deuzam, the general
Germanic word for "animal" (as opposed to man), but often restricted to
"wild animal" (cf. O.Fris. diar, Du. dier, O.N. dyr, O.H.G. tior, Ger. Tier
"animal," Goth. dius "wild animal," also cf.
reindeer<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=reindeer&allowed_in_frame=0>),
from PIE *dheusom "creature that breathes," from *dheu- (1) "cloud, breath"
(cf. Lith. dusti "gasp," dvesti "gasp, perish;" O.C.S. dychati "breathe;"
cf. L. animal from anima "breath"), from base *dheu-. Sense specialization
to a specific animal began in O.E. (usual O.E. for what we now call a deer
was heorot; see
hart<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hart&allowed_in_frame=0>),
common by 15c., now complete. Probably via hunting, deer being the favorite
animal of the chase (cf. Skt. mrga- "wild animal," used especially for
"deer"). Deer-lick is first attested 1778, in an American context.

*DEAR *O.E. deore "precious, valuable, costly, loved, beloved," from P.Gmc.
*deurjaz (cf. O.S. diuri, O.N. dyrr, O.Fris. diore, M.Du. dure, Du. duur,
O.H.G. tiuri, Ger. teuer), ultimate origin unknown. Used interjectorily
since 1690s. As a polite introductory word to letters, it is attested from
mid-15c. As a noun, from late 14c., perhaps short for dear one, etc.

Ed Alexander, on Manitoulin Island, where the annual deer hunt starts on
Monday.

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
  Subject: LL-L "Semantics"

Beste Mark,

You wrote:

 As for "Lob" & "Preis": English "praise" & "prize" (now this is getting
interesting) with which I associate with Afrikaans "lof" & "prys", my
Kritzinger, Steyn, Schoonees & Cronje (Afrikaanse Woordeboek. Vertalend,
Afrikaans : Engels) has this to offer. 'Lof' = praise, eulogy,
commendation, laudation. 'Prys' = price, value, cost, charge, award,
premium, prize, praise &c.

The first, 'lof', may be a tribute but it is not a commodity. The second,
'prys', may be, but is it a synonym altogether? Not inevitably.

We still offer Lof & Prys to God.


Or to merchandise.

As is the case in the Brabantish expression: "loven en bieden" (loven en
bie?en ~ love and bid). It's an old one (attested in 1380 already), used to
describe the haggling between seller and byer. A seller will usually praise
his ware (loven is not coincidentally cognate with "to love" (E)), while
the potential byer may make an offer (a bid).

I have a feeling that words like "cheap", "love", "praise" and "dear" were
rather market-terms, before they were religiously/morally reinterpreted.

"Free" on the other hand looks like a more original word-complex that was
connected with what we label "love" these days. Note:

   - vrijen (D): to make love
   - friend (E): ami-go (Spanish)
   - fri: Old Saxon for "woman"
   - Frieden (G): peace
   - Freyja: goddess of love

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 22 03:35:24 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:35:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.20. (02) [EN]

Hallo Lowlanners.

Dat is je snaaksch. Fr?nd Ed Alexaner is nu von  Dear up Deer kamen.
Ja, wenn dat so is, kann ick je noch wat tau un oewer *DEER **(Tier) *
vermellen.

*Diert,* Dier, Deir, ?. Deert, Pl. *Deerte, Dierte, Direr, Deirer, -s *n.
Tier, das wilde , freilebende Tier im Gegensatz zu den zahmen oder
Haustieren: animal 'ein Deerte'; 'so ein wunderlik derte' (1563);
'unvornufftige  Deerte'; 'de wilden Deerte'; 'von einem schlimmen Deert';
'alle Deerde, all dat Veh' (1726); f?r dat Vieh vermeidet der Volksmund die
Bezeichnung *Diert *nach M?glichkeit; wenn ein Badegast einen Fisch mit *Diert
*bezeichnet, erh?lt er die abweisende Antwort: *Deirer warden hier nich
fungen; *nur im Zorn sowie im Segen und Volksreim wird das Wort zuweilen
auch von Haustieren gebraucht: *dat oll Diert *von einer Kuh, die beim
Melken nicht stehen will;* wo willt Derers ji Deirers hen! *zu Schafen, die
sich von der Herde absondern; *dat Diert hett sick verfungen** *im Segen
gegen die Kolik; junge G?ssel, die man erstmalig auf die Weide bringt,
werden durch folgenden Spruch vor Raubzeug gesch?tzt: *Will Dierer, hier
bring' ick juch tamm Dierer, Dor s?lt ji nich ihrer von ?ten, Ihrer Mudder
Maria ehr Kind hett verg?ten; de l?tten Deirer *junge Enten; *Hotth?, min
l?tt Pierten, Hoppeda, min l?tt Dierten; de fleigen Dierten *V?gel; *dat
wieren Dierer von derer Gr?tt *sehr gro?e Insekten; *dor gahn v?l Deirer
?mher *(L?use im R?tsel); *en unvern?nftig Dird *(Schimmel)*; *bildl. von
gro?er Armut: *hier hett dat arm Diert jung't; hier is nicks los, hier
hett'n arm Diert jung't, hett tw?lw kr?gen; *?bertr. von Menschen, die man
nicht alle Tage sieht, z.B. hochgestellte Pers?nlichkeiten: *se willen sonn
Diert *(den Gro?herzog) *ok eens seihn; Wunnerdiert; grote
Dierter*(angesehene Personen);
*de Dierer *Studenten; vgl. *Dussel-, Nussel-, Undiert;** *von leblosen
Dingen: *wat hebben de Deirer f?r Dwaskn?ppel *sagte  ein Bauernjunge beim
Anblick von Segelschiffen mit gro?en Rahen; *dat olle Diert *(Hose); *dee
hebben sick noch sonn Deirers upgr?belt *Reime und Schw?nke. FN.
(Flurnamen): *Dierbrauk, -goorden-, -horst, -koppel. *Mnd. *d?rt, d?r; *Diert?g
n. das Vieh.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

IDIOM: *Jedem Tierchen sein Pl?sierchen
             **To each his/her own.*
*
*Un ick h?pp nu as ne Fl?h (Floh) in't Bedd.

Hartlich.

Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Moin, Hanne!

Bi mi un in 'n good Deel annere Dialekten is de Mehrtallform "Deerten" or
"Dierten".

Gr?tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.:
Un ick h?pp nu as ne Fl?h (Floh) in't Bedd.

'n Fl?h (*vlooi*, *Floh*, *flee*) is b?ter as as 'n Wandluus (*wandluis, **
Wanze*, *bedbug*). (Wandl?s' stinkt daar ja ook noch to!)


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 22 03:39:04 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:39:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.20. (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.NOV.2011.193904.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: event

An all' Lowlanners.

Wat je noch weiten m?t'.

 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturpreis_des_Landes_Mecklenburg_Vorpommern

Die Fritz Reuter Gesellschaft wurde heute mit dieser Auszeichnung geehrt.
Der Pr?sident der FRG Prof. Dr. Dr. J?rgen Grote* nahm die Auszeichnung
entgegen. (Un gistern hebben wi* bi Caf? Prag noch ne sch??n Tass' Kaffe
drunken un 'n Str?mel vertellt.  J.G. is ein Sweriner un sien Mudding wier
eins mien Doktersch.)


Ick freu mi f?r de FRG.

Hanne

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: event

Da ich die Webseite immer Buchstabe f?r Buchstabe abschreiben mu?, ist mir
ein Fehler unterlaufen. Nun ist alles OK.
Kann mir einer mal den Tipp geben, wie man direkt die Anschrift http usw.
in ein Schreiben ?bertragen kann?

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 22 18:36:31 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:36:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.22 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.NOV.2011.103631.0800.>

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From:  Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong
Dutchmatters at comcast.net<roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.20. (04) [DE-NDS]

Liebe Hanne

Das ist  gar nicht schwierig. Man soll zuerst die Botschaft ?durchsenden?
oder  ?beantworten. Auf das Schirm kan man dann die Anschrift abschreiben
und in eine andere Botschaft aufkleben.



Good luck!

Jacqueline,
Seattle VS

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 22 23:53:12 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:53:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.22. (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.NOV.2011.155312.0800.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.
roger.thijs at euro-support.be<Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.18 (02) [EN]

Translations may leave semantic differences unresolved.
See picture from the ?avenue Ten Horen? ? ?Ten Horen laan? (zum Horn Allee)
in the bilingual ?Uccle? ? ?Ukkel?, one of the 19 municipalities of the
Brussels capital region.
It helps understanding why the Dutch and French speakers have it so
difficult to find oneother.

Regards,
Roger


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 23 19:47:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:47:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.23 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.114705.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.22 (01) [DE]

Liebe Jacqueline,

vielen vielen Dank f?r deine Hilfe, ich habe mich sehr gefreut. *Aber *ich
habe leider Probleme. Ich werde weiter Test-?bungen anwenden. Eigentlich
bin ich gar nicht so *doemlich *(dumm).
Ich habe seit einiger Zeit Windows 7 mit  Mozilla Thunderbird und komme
damit auch klar.

Immer wenn ich die Sache angehe, kommt mir in die Quere:
 "Babylon Nachricht: Diese Babylon Version ist abgelaufen." Warum
eigentlich...?) Ich kriege das schon hin...

Herzliche Gr??e und nochmals DANK!

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 23 19:48:04 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:48:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.23 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.114804.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.22 (01) [DE]

Liebe Jacqueline,

vielen vielen Dank f?r deine Hilfe, ich habe mich sehr gefreut. *Aber *ich
habe leider Probleme. Ich werde weiter Test-?bungen anwenden. Eigentlich
bin ich gar nicht so *doemlich *(dumm).
Ich habe seit einiger Zeit Windows 7 mit  Mozilla Thunderbird und komme
damit auch klar.

Immer wenn ich die Sache angehe, kommt mir in die Quere:
 "Babylon Nachricht: Diese Babylon Version ist abgelaufen." Warum
eigentlich...?) Ich kriege das schon hin...

Herzliche Gr??e und nochmals DANK!

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 23 19:49:52 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:49:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2011.11.23 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.114952.0800.>

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From: Henry Pijffers henry.pijffers at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2011.11.22. (02) [EN]

Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> See picture from the ?avenue Ten Horen? ? ?Ten Horen laan? (zum Horn
Allee)
> in the bilingual ?Uccle? ? ?Ukkel?, one of the 19 municipalities of the
> Brussels capital region.
>
Hey, the French sign is bigger. This calls for a good riot!

cheers,
Henry
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 00:46:02 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 16:46:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2011.11.23 (03) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.164602.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong
Dutchmatters at comcast.net<henry.pijffers at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.23 (01) [DE]

Re: Babylon Nachricht.

Liebe Hanne,

Leider kann ich dir damit nicht helfen. Ich habe ?berhaupt nie gewusst dat
die Babylonier schon computers hatten.

Sterkte met het probleem!
Jacqueline
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 00:48:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 16:48:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2011.11.23 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.164838.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Henry,

You wrote:

Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> See picture from the ?avenue Ten Horen? ? ?Ten Horen laan? (zum Horn
Allee)
> in the bilingual ?Uccle? ? ?Ukkel?, one of the 19 municipalities of the
> Brussels capital region.
>
Hey, the French sign is bigger.


Of course...this is a prank set up by the Dutch community ;=) We
bilinguals, all know you have to turn to the right, but since most of the
French have absolutely no clue what "Wegomlegging" means they will surely
follow the bigger (French) signpost. This is our way to minimize traffic
jams ;=)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

PS: Even in unilingual territory, at a junction, you can sometimes see a
sign pointing to the left: Brussel, 15 km, and another pointing to the
right, Brussel, 17 km. No problem for locals...

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 01:16:45 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 17:16:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.23.NOV.2011.171645.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

Here in the Seattle area, we had what my Australian friends would call "a
real stinker of a day." Though while they tend to refer to particularly hot
weather, I am referring to a dark, depressing day of constant rain ...
November at its worst (short of snow in a hilly area like this).

I may have mentioned the following some years ago, but I am sure it can
stand repeating.

In many Low Saxon dialects, this type of light, steady rain (and the
accompanying low light conditions) are known as (masculine)
*Druus*[dru:s], and the derived adjective/adverb is
*drusig* ['dru:z??].

Now, this reminds me of English "drowsy" and the Scots verb *drouse* (*
droose* [dru:z] 'to be drowsy'), considering also that, like English
"drowsy" and Scots *drouse*, the Low Saxon words can refer to a state of
sleepiness as well. Are we talking about a coincidence or about a
relationship? Are there other Lowlands pieces of the puzzle?

Regards, and to all Lowlanders in and from the United States a wonderful
and heartwarming Thanksgiving!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 21:25:19 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 13:25:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.24.NOV.2011.132519.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

In many Low Saxon dialects, this type of light, steady rain (and the
accompanying low light conditions) are known as (masculine)
*Druus*[dru:s], and the derived adjective/adverb is
*drusig* ['dru:z??].


I think the original meaning of [dru:s] may have been "murk" (compare Old
English "drusan" to sink, and "to drowse"), evolving to:

   - [dru:s]: nickname for the devil (the dark one, in many dialects)
   - [dru:s]: sediment, dark sludgy substance in a liquid, also a horse
   disease (cf. droesem in Dutch)
   - [dru:s]: as in toponym Droeshout and surname Droesbeke (dark, marshy
   wood and muddy, slow running brook)
   - [dru:s]: nickname for a big, clumsy, slow-witted fellow


Not too sure English "drizzle" is related btw. Seems like a substrate word,
together with Dutch "dras".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer mrdreyer at lantic.net
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

Dear Ron:
Subject: LL-L Etymology

We've started with that now on the Highveld. Fine weather, for ducks. S
Africans can get really morbid when they don't see the Sun.
By the way; I think you'll get more meat out of the English term 'drizzle'
by which they mean light rain of long duration. A brief burst of the same
would rate 'shower'. My Yiddish ear says this has to be a *little* 'drizz'
- whatever that izz.

Reciprocations to you, Ron & all you Americans, eat a fat slice of pecan
pie for me!

All Yrs,
Mark

You wrote:
...I am referring to a dark, depressing day of constant rain ... November
at its worst (short of snow in a hilly area like this).

I may have mentioned the following some years ago, but I am sure it can
stand repeating.

In many Low Saxon dialects, this type of light, steady rain (and the
accompanying low light conditions) are known as (masculine)
*Druus*[dru:s], and the derived adjective/adverb is
*drusig* ['dru:z??].

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

That sort of rain is called "drizzle" in England (and probably other UK
countries too).  Online Etymological dictionary dates it to 1540s, probably
from OE *dreosan*, to fall.  Related to PIE **dhreu,* related to "drip".

Paul.

PS: when it is really fine rain, we call it "mizzle", combining "drizzle"
with "mist".

----------

From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

At 08:16 PM 23/11/2011, Ron wrote:

In many Low Saxon dialects, this type of light, steady rain (and the
accompanying low light conditions) are known as (masculine)
*Druus*[dru:s], and the derived adjective/adverb is
*drusig* ['dru:z????].

Now, this reminds me of English "drowsy" and the Scots verb *drouse* (*
droose* [dru:z] 'to be drowsy'), considering also that, like English
"drowsy" and Scots *drouse*, the Low Saxon words can refer to a state of
sleepiness as well. Are we talking about a coincidence or about a
relationship? Are there other Lowlands pieces of the puzzle?


You forgot "drizzle."  It looks like drowsy comes from a different root
than *drusig*.

Ed Alexander

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
   Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

Hello there ?stadgenoot?

A Dutch friend came to visit me this afternoon and she said, while we were
negotiating the puddles in the driveway,  ?en als dit thuis was geweest,
zou ik ook nog op de fiets zijn gekomen?!! Brrrrr

Which brings me back to your etymological question.

Dutch knows ?druisen? which my dictionary tells me is ?een aanhoudend maar
ongelijkmatig, verward, vrij sterk geluid voortbrengen. I think that makes
meterological sense today. And then there are of course druilen en druipen
(respectively not showing any energy and to drip). Does that remind you of
something??

Keep dry!
Jacqueline BdJ

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

Thanks for all the responses.



Now that you have mentioned it I am convinced that *drizzle* is related,
must have come from **drysel* ['dry:zl] (< /druz+el-/, diminutive
frequentive, umlauted).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



My keyboard just broke, and the stores are closed for the holiday ? It is
horrendous working around that.

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 24 21:33:05 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 13:33:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2011.11.24 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.24.NOV.2011.133305.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" 2011.11.24 [EN]

According to the Dutch linguistic magazine Onze Taal, Brabantish is the
most sexy accent of the Netherlands:

http://www.onzetaal.nl/nieuws/brabants-meest-sexy-accent-van-nederland

Ingmar

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 26 00:17:25 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:17:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.25 [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.NOV.2011.161725.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Paul,

You mentioned "to mizzle", when light rain is falling. The same word exists
in Dutch "miezelen/miezeren" and Low German "miseln". Note Dutch dialect
"miegelen", to urinate.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Wim wkv at home.nl
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.24 (01) [EN]

>From wim verdoold

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle nl



Hi!



Droes   in the futhark ( Rune Alphabeth) the th is called  thurs   ( giant )



I think that is the same word again



Moin!


Wim

----------

From: list at marcusbuck.org
   Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.24 (01) [EN]

From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk

>  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]
>
> That sort of rain is called "drizzle" in England (and probably other UK
> countries too).  Online Etymological dictionary dates it to 1540s, probably
> from OE *dreosan*, to fall.  Related to PIE **dhreu,* related to "drip".
>
> Paul.
>
> PS: when it is really fine rain, we call it "mizzle", combining "drizzle"
> with "mist".
>

Is it really a portmanteau or perhaps an old word? Low Saxon has "musseln"
for fine rain (it also means dropping powder-like or grainy substances:
"Mussel nich so mit dat Stroh, ik heff j?st feegt." Do not drop any straw,
I just swept.).

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]

Hallo all' Lowlanners,
ick hadd stramm tau daun un kann ierst h?t , wat nu k?mmt, vermellen:

*Regen, Regen drus'

*Regen, Regen* drus',*
wi sitt hier warm in Huus'!
De Vageln sitt in Bom to kurn,
de K?h, dee staht an' Wall to schurn:
Regen, Regen *drus'*,
wi sitt hier warm in Huus'!

1. Vers
Text: Klaus Groth
Hier heit *drus' *: *'rieseln'.*

*Bim-bam-beier!

*2. Vers:
Bim-bam-J?nging,
min oll l?tt Lusep?nging,
min oll l?tt Snickermus,
din Og is blag, din Poll is krus -
bim-bam, nu ligg un *drus'*!

Text: John Brinckman

Hier hett *drus' *dat Bed?den von *schl?frig*.
 ?brigens, eine sch?ne Lautmalerei.
*
**drus' *hett so tau seggen twei Bed?den.

Perfesser Vo?lo:
*drus' *(*dr?s), *druss verschlafen, m?rrisch:* dru's; drus utseihn; denn
w?s' nich so drus, Dirn, Un nimm nicks krumm! - As sonn Kaninken drus un
fram; de Windhunn' sleken so drus; wo drus un b?s he utseg; b?n ick drus,
so sall ick schmeicheln; drus *still, launisch, verdrossen;
*druss laten *traurig aussehen.
Drus' m. Halbschlaf; *De Wind dee weiht, De Hahn dee kreiht, De K?ster
liggt in 'n Drus'; oll Unkel Sprein Sitt still v?r sick as in den Druss' *;
*oll Drus' *Langschl?fer; *in 'n Drus' stahn* ungewi? sein;  *dat Weder
steiht so im Druse ;  Winterdrus'.  *Aberglaube: *ut den Drus' is hei nich
ruttaubringen;  Drus' krigen  *Schl?ge erhalten - Drus'drom m. Schelte f?r
einen schlafm?tzigen Menschen -  *drusen  *in leichten Schlummer fallen,
Einnicken, schlummern;  -
*drusig *schl?frig, verdrossen;  *em ward all so drusig* er wird schlafm?de.
Drus'jahn m. schl?friger, langsamer Mensch; Druskopp m. Dummkopf;
Drusmichel m. wie Drusjahn; Drusmul n. sauert?pfischer Mensch; Druspeter m.
wie -jahn.
*Drussel *(ss stimmhaft) m. Halbschlaf, leichter Schlummer; *en l?tten
Drussel hollen *(ein Nickerchen machen); Drusselb?cks f. langsamer,
schl?friger Mensch; *drusseln *ein wenig einnicken, im halben Schlummer
sein *hei drusselt so v?r sick hen*; Zss.: *inoewerdrusseln*;  gruseln im
M?rchen von dem, der das F?rchten lernen wollte: *wenn ick w?sst, wat
drusseln wir. **Drusseltit *f. Schlummerzeit; *Dr?ssing *m. kleiner ?rger,
Verdru?.
 * *Anmerkung von mir: ick heff mi hier nich vertippt, is all'ns echt
(original).

DUDEN 7:
*Dusel:  *Das im 16. Jh. aus dem  Niederl. ins Hochd. ?bernommene Wort
geh?rt mit mnd.
d?singe "Bet?ubung", ahd.  t?sig "einf?ltig", norw. dusa "duseln", niederl.
dwaas"t?richt".
Duseln ist ist eine Ableitung von Dusel;
*duseln  *"tr?umen, still vor sich hin gehen" 16. Jh.; *dusselig,
dusslig *"dumm,
schlafm?tzig.

Nu m?t ick waak bliewen, denn  bi dat Wuurt *drusig *mit all' sien
Rankelw??rd heff  ick mi binah so f?uhlt as *Nusseljochen *(schl?friger
Mensch). Caff? Crema ut mien niege Kaffeemaschin m?ckt mi wedder munter.

Best' Gr?uten.

Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
   Subject: Etymology

Dank di, Hanne.

*Regen, Regen drus'*
* *
* *Regen, Regen* drus',*
wi sitt hier warm in Huus'!
De Vageln sitt in Bom to kurn,
de K?h, dee staht an' Wall to schurn:
Regen, Regen *drus'*,
wi sitt hier warm in Huus'!

1. Vers
Text: Klaus Groth

You read this song (with vocabulary) and my "translation" here:

http://lowlands-l.net/groth/regen.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Brought to you with the help of a new keyboard


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 26 00:21:44 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:21:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.24 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.NOV.2011.162144.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Dem  Advent entgegen

Un wedder heit dat "Leiw' Fr?nn'n!"

Uns'* Ingelsch-Lihrer Ulrich Planken *hett ein Drapen mit Fr?nn'n ut
England organisiert. Ick wier gistern mit bi.
Hier mal de Plan, wat so up uns tauk?mmt:

*Anticipating Advent (Dem Advent entgegen).
*
Fr?nn'n ut England tau Bes?uk in de "Bernogemeinde":
*
Donnerstag, 24. November* 18:00 "S?ppchen" im Berno-Gemeindezentrum. Erstes
Kennenlernen und Wiedersehen. *(Ja, dat hett mi tauseggt.)*
*Freitag, 25. Nov.* 9:30 VolXmobil an der Paulskirche; Thomas Ruppenthal
stellt ein besonderes Projekt der Jugendarbeit unserer Landeskirche vor.
11:00 Besichtigung Festsaal des Oberkirchenrates, M?nzstra?e 8-10.   *15:00
Teaparty im Mehrgenerationenhaus auf dem Dreesch. Dor mak ick mit.* 19:00
Weihnachtsmarkt, Treffpunkt Eingang Dom.
*Sonnabend, 26. November* 9:00 Ausflug Bellin, Haus der Stille und G?strow,
Krippenmuseum. 17:30 Gottesdienst Anticipating Advent im
Bernogemeindezentrum, Abend der Begegnung. Bitte bringen  Sie etwas f?r das
Buffet mit! *Sonntag, 27. November* 10:30 Uhr Gottesdienst in der
Paulskirche.
Veranstalter: Ev.-Luth. Bernogemeinde /Wossidlostra?e 2 / 19059 Schwerin,
Kirchen?ltester *Ulrich Planken* / Pastorin Konstanze Helmers.

Ick heff mi poor Gedanken upschr?wen, woans ick up Ingelsch 'n Snack
anfangen kann. Uns f?hlt de Dialog.

Also, h?t ward Ingelsch snackt..... oh ha!

Hanne

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online>
Subject: Musik

Ja, tau Tied h?mpelt dat mit H?hepunkten...

Dat Landesfunkhuus Schwerin  *NDR *hett mi tau ein "Funkhauskonzert"
inlaadt (ick heff je v?r un nah de Wenn' v?l Tauarbeit f?r dat Funkhuus
makt).
Un  mit Freud wier ick mit bi. "Hell ward dat in uns Stuben - Plattd?tsch
Wiehnacht mit de Fritz-Reuter-B?hn" am Mittwoch, 23. November 2011 um 19:00
Uhr im Foyer des NDR Landesfunkhauses  Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.
De F.R.B?hn hett dit Johr ehrn 85. Burtsdag fiert un hebben ehr niege CD
v?rstellt. Blot inladen G?st so an ~  f?tig L??d nich blot ut Swerin hebben
sick drapen.  Dat Drapen wier einzig , grootorrig. Wi Fr?nn'n hebben uns
v?r Freud ?marmt un later noch bi 'n l?tten Rodspon 'n Str?mel vertellt.

Dat wier grotorrig! Mal von ein anner Oort un Wies' hebben de K?nstlers ehr
niege CD v?rstellt, un ick heff sei mi later glieksen k?fft un ok noch mit
de Mitmakers vertellt.

*Hell ward dat in uns Stuben
Plattd?tsch Wiehnachten: Frech, fr?hlich, feierlich. Das
Weihnachts-Ensemble der Fritz-Reuter-B?hne Schwerin mit alten und neuen
plattdeutschen Weihnachts-, Kinder- und Winterliedern sowie Texten und
Gedichten zum Fest. Dazu die Weihnachtsgeschihte up Platt.
*(Ick heff oewer nicks freches ruteh?ert, ja,  spa?ig woll.)
*
*Mit allen Texten up Platt in einem ausf?hrlichen Booklet von Rainer
Schobe? (ick heff fief Johr f?r em *B?nkel-Leeder *nah ein v?rg?ben Thema
schr?wen, komponiert un insungen bi ein Tonstudio. Eigentlich wier dat blot
v?r ein Johr so dacht, oewer dat l?p so gaud, un so s?nd 't fief Johr mit
250 B?nkel-Leeder worden).
De Mitmakers: S?nger/Sprecher: Arja Sharma, Ulrike Stern, Andres Auer,
Manfred Br?mmer*, Knut Fiete Degner, Jens Tramsen, Valentin Man?)

* schreew de mihrsten Texten. Dat L?uschen liggt em, oewer ok de tau Harten
gahn Texten.

De vertonten Texten hebben mi bannig anroegt. Thomas M?ckel (Komponist)
hett denn' Nerv drapen. Mit sien Muskanten von dat Staatstheater Swerin
insp?lt mit de Instrumenten Cello, Viola, Klavier, Celesta, Violine,
Kontrabass, Bassgitarre, Celesta, Akkordeon, Fl?te, Tenor-, Sopran-,
Baritonsaxophon, Schlagzeug, percussion (sehr dezent eingesetzt), Trompete,
Fl?gelhorn, Akustikgitarre und  E-Gitarre.

Mien Mein, hier hett'n olle Traditschon mit sinnige niemodsche Traditschon
verkn?tt.
Wat M?ckel komponiert is ?mmer wedder wunnersch???n!

Glieks bi  de iersten Takten von Musik k?m in mi liesen ein F?uhlen up as
wier't nu Wiehnachten.

De CD kannst 67:45 Minuten geneiten.

Nu ward't Tied ... m?t je noch weg nah denn' Groten Dreisch.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 26 22:29:30 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 14:29:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.NOV.2011.142930.0800.>

=====================================================
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>From Cliff Smuts csmuts at xsinet.co.za

Subject LL-L ?Etymology?



Best all



Interesting etymology. In Afrikaans we have ?misre?n? (literally misty
rain) for very soft light rain. The word ?mis? is Afr for ?fog?, and we
have other words, such as ?mishoring = foghorn? with the same component as
well. The Xhosa (black tribal grouping as well as athe name of their
language have the word ?kitsha? or kwitsha? for the same event (i.e. light
rain).



Kind greetings,


Cliff

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
  <wkv at home.nl>
  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.25 [DE-EN-NDS]

Thanks Luc,
My explanation of "mist and drizzle" was actually a guess; maybe we got the
word much earlier from Flemish and Dutch traders, or there might be an
older Germanic word common to all these.

Paul

----------

From: Sandy Fleming fleemin at live.co.uk
 <list at marcusbuck.org>
   Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> From: list at marcusbuck.org
  > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.24 (01) [EN]
>
> From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk

>  Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.23 (05) [EN]PS: when it is really fine
rain, we call it "mizzle", combining "drizzle"
> with "mist".

> Is it really a portmanteau or perhaps an old word? Low Saxon has
"musseln" for fine rain (it also means dropping powder-like or grainy
substances: "Mussel nich so mit dat Stroh, ik > heff j?st feegt." Do not
drop any straw, I just swept.).

In Scots we say "mizzlin" for raining with fine droplets, too.

When fine rain is wafted by the wind so that it looks like curtains, we
call this "smirr".

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 27 00:42:52 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:42:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.NOV.2011.164252.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26.(01) [EN]

Ick heff ok noch wat up Lager,

*musselig *Adj.,  (*-ss- *stimmhaft)* *auch umg., regnerisch, schmutzig,
vom Wetter
*musseln *leicht regnen, nieseln.
*nieseln *wie hd. *Syn **fisseln, dribbeln, dr?bbeln, schmuddeln, dat
nieselt sonn' b?ten *es f?llt leichter Regen.
*dr?ppen *tropfen, *druppen*, oft von beginnendem Regen: *dat dr?ppt all*;
?bertr. von sp?rlichem Gewinn: *wenn 't nich r?gent, so dr?ppt 't doch*;
auch von gro?em ?berflu?: 'Idt dr?ppet all van Geld, wor se man henne
gripen'; triefen: *hei ... dr?ppte von baben bet unnen; von 'n Druppenfall
in 'n Platzr?gen kamen *ein kleines ?bel mit einem gr??eren
vertauschen - *druppwis'
*tropfenweise,  auch bed?chtig, stockend von der Sprache.

Aber *drup *darauf; *drup un dran sin *im Begriff sein.
Lit.: Perfesser Vo?lo

IDIOM
*Auf Regen folgt Sonnenschein.
**Every cloud has a silver lining.

*Ick w?nsch all Lowlanners 'n sinnigen (besinnlichen) S?nndag.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 27 20:34:54 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 12:34:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.27.(01) [AF-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.NOV.2011.123454.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Hannelore,

Another verb for fine, light rain:

Sabbern, known in Bremen, K?ln, G?ttingen (Georg Schambach) and Brabant.

Also in use for "to drool (E), geifern (G)) and probably cognate with "to
sob (E)". Same root and also used for light rain is Southern Dutch
"zever(e)n".

I think German musseln/muscheln could well be related to older Dutch
"mooschen" (treat clumsily, play with dirt...). "Moe?sn" in Brabantish.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Denis dujardin dujardin at pandora.be <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (02) [DE-NDS]

In Dutch we have "miezeren" for light raining.

In West-flemish we use "smeukken" in which the "kk" is pronounced as a
"glottislag" (dont know how you translate this to english) which has the
sound like go'''''a- get (gotta get , got to get) in Cockney.
Always wondered where smuekken came from. Anyone?

*Denis Dujardin
dujardin at telenet.be
www.denisdujardin.be
Flanders-Belgium
0032485328375*

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (02) [DE-NDS]

We often hear about how Inupiat has dozens of words for snow (though I
believe it actually doesn't); Trust the Lowlanders to have a dozen words
for rain!

Paul
(in rather dry) Derby
England

----------

From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer mrdreyer at lantic.net
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.26 (01) [EN]

Haai, Cliff!

Onderwerp: LL-L "Etymology"

En wat van 'motre?n'?

*Motre?n*, (s) drizzle, Scotch mist; dribble; (w) *(ge-)*, drizzle.
[Kritzinger, Steyn, Schoonees & Cronje]
en:
Motre?n: Sagte re?n; Ndl *motregen* (aanhaling uit van Riebeek se
Dagboek) " 's avonds 't luchen... met motregen" (en 'n ander uit Schou)
"een geweldige mist en mot-regen ondereen gemenght" ens... [Boshoff en
Nienaber]

& while we're talking about Scotch mist, don't *they* call it 'haar'? (I'd
like to hear the back-story to that). I have also heard one of
*them*define this as the exact boundry condition between light rain &
heavy mist,
AKA "a fine fair morning" anywhere North of Carlisle!

U skryf:
Interesting etymology. In Afrikaans we have ?misre?n? (literally misty
rain) for very soft light rain. The word ?mis? is Afr for ?fog?, and we
have other words, such as ?mishoring = foghorn? with the same component as
well. The Xhosa (black tribal grouping as well as athe name of their
language have the word ?kitsha? or kwitsha? for the same event (i.e. light
rain).

Groete,
Mark


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 28 20:23:42 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:23:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.11.28.(01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.NOV.2011.122342.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 28 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Utz H.Woltmann uwoltmann at gmx.de
 <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.27.(01) [AF-EN]

An?n 26.11.2011 schrev Denis Dujardin:

In Dutch we have "miezeren" for light raining.

I like very much the Dutch word 'miezemuizen' for light rain.

I realised the following words in Low Saxon and Missingsch:

To drizzle in LS: Dribbeln, drieseln, dr?bbeln, dr?ppeln, druseln,
drusseln, fieseln, fie?eln, fisseln, miesten, misten, musseln, nieseln,
nisseln, smuddeln, snuschen.

To drizzle in Missingsch: Fieseln, pieseln, schuddern, schnuddern.

The drizzle in LS: Druus, Niesel, Nieselregen (same as German), Smuddel,
Smuddelregen, Smudderregen

The drizzle in Missingsch: Fieselregen.

We call the weather in Missingsch 'Schmuddelwetter' and in LS 'dat
schidderige Wedder'.

Best regards

Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Utz.

To drizzle in Missingsch: Fieseln, pieseln, schuddern, schnuddern.

The drizzle in Missingsch: Fieselregen.

We call the weather in Missingsch 'Schmuddelwetter' and in LS 'dat
schidderige Wedder'.

That's Bremen Missingsch, right?

In Hamburg Missingsch I'd say:

to drizzle: *schmuddeln*
drizzle: *Schmuddelregen*
drizzly weather: *Schmuddelwedder*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 06:14:10 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:14:10 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.28 (03) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.28.NOV.2011.221410.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 25 November 2011 - Volume 03
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be
Subject: LL-L Resources

A new Dialect Atlas of the Dutch language area (in Europe) is reviewed in
"De Standard" today.
Strange to me is the swap between komen/gekomen in the last paragraph

Regards,

Roger

quoted from:
http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=ML3ITH19

Tot ziens, salu, ajuus, houdoe en dag hoor!

Dialectatlas toont evolutie van streektalen
dinsdag 29 november 2011, 03u00

Auteur: Berthold van Maris

UTRECHT - De ?Dialectatlas van het Nederlands' brengt streektalen
overzichtelijk in kaart en toont aan dat dialecten blijven evolueren.

Van onze medewerker

Dialectonderzoekers doen niets liever dan kaartjes tekenen. Waar in het
Nederlandse taalgebied spreken ze met de zachte g en waar met de harde?
Waar zeggen ze ?spijkerbroek' en waar ?jeans'?

Veel van die kaartjes zijn voor de leek moeilijk te lezen, omdat er soms
wel twintig verschillende varianten op staan aangegeven met ieder zijn
eigen symbooltje. Daarom is het goed dat er nu een boek is waarin honderd
vijftig van die kaartjes zo bewerkt zijn dat ook het grote publiek ervan
kan genieten.

Mooie, overzichtelijke kaartjes zijn het geworden. Ieder kaartje is
voorzien van een uitgebreide toelichting. Allerlei bekende dialectkwesties
komen voorbij. Waar zegt men ?Toon wast zich', waar ?Toon wast z'n eigen'
en waar is het ?Toon wast hem'?

Op het kaartje over hoe men ?groter dan' zegt in de dialecten van het
Nederlands, zie je in ??n oogopslag dat het in bijna alle dialecten ?groter
als' is. Alleen in het westen van Vlaanderen zegt men liever iets anders,
namelijk ?groter of'.

Ook minder bekende maar daarom niet minder intrigerende zaken worden in
beeld gebracht. Het lidwoord ?een' heeft in sommige delen van het
taalgebied een mannelijke, een vrouwelijke ?n een onzijdige vorm
(bijvoorbeeld: ne man, ?n vrouw, e kind). En in sommige dialecten zeggen ze
niet ?Wie denk je dat ik in de stad heb gezien?' maar ?Wie denk je wie ik
in de stad heb gezien?'.

Elk kaartje is anders. De grenzen tussen de verschillende varianten van een
klank, een woord of een zinsconstructie vallen bijna nooit samen met de
grenzen tussen veronderstelde dialectgroepen zoals ?het Limburgs' of ?het
Gronings'. Aan een goede, wetenschappelijk onderbouwde indeling in
dialectgroepen wordt trouwens al meer dan een eeuw gewerkt, met telkens
andere resultaten. Nu eens werden er in het Nederlandse taalgebied zes
dialectgroepen onderscheiden, dan weer achtentwintig of acht. Vroeger zag
men het liefst de vroege geschiedenis van Nederland door die kaartjes heen
schemeren: de huidige dialectverschillen zouden teruggaan op
taalverschillen tussen de Franken, de Saksen en de Friezen.

Streektalen

Tegenwoordig spreekt men graag over ?streektalen', die beschermd dienen te
worden, zoals ?het Limburgs' en ?het Nedersaksisch' (de dialecten van Oost-
en Noord-Nederland). Maar wie al die kaartjes bekijkt en naast elkaar legt,
ziet dat er geen duidelijk omlijnde streektalen zijn. Met als enige
uitzondering, misschien, het Fries.

Bij de meeste kaartjes valt wel een interessant verhaal te vertellen. Er is
bijvoorbeeld ??n groot aaneengesloten gebied waarin men ?sinaasappel' zegt.
Daaromheen liggen kleinere gebieden, die niet met elkaar verbonden zijn,
waar men ?appelsien' zegt. De dialectoloog concludeert uit dat geografische
patroon dat ?appelsien' de oudste vorm is, die langzaam door de nieuwere
vorm (?sinaasappel') wordt verdrongen.

Dat dialecten steeds weer veranderen en dat soms ook in tegengestelde
richtingen doen, is mooi te zien op een kaartje over de varianten ?ik ben
gekomen' en ?ik ben komen'. *In Noord-Nederland zei men in de veertiende
eeuw op veel plaatsen ?ick ben ghecomen' en is het nu overal ?ik ben
komen'. Onder de rivieren is het precies andersom: daar zei men zes eeuwen
geleden ?ick ben comen' en is het nu overal ?ik ben gekomen'.*

Nicoline van der Sijs (red.),

?Dialectatlas van het Nederlands', Prometheus, 368 blz., 39,95 euro.

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 06:17:45 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:17:45 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.28.(04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.NOV.2011.221745.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 25 November 2011 - Volume 04
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comc
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.27.(01) [AF-EN]

Dennis contributed the word smeukken to the growing palette of words with
which we ?word paint? Lowlands weather. That is getting close to E smog,
which I always thought was a contamination between smoke and fog. How come>

Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 06:22:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:22:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2011.11.28.(05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.28.NOV.2011.222243.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 25 November 2011 - Volume 05
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: Kultur

Hallo all' Lowlanners,

in'n Wiehnachtsmaand deit sick nu all wat, un dat m?t de wiede Welt ok tau
weiten kriegen.

Mit ein hartlich Gr?uten.

Hanne

Am 28.11.2011 00:57, schrieb Zentrum f?r Niederdeutsch:

**



**

*Leve Fr?nnen vun't Plattd??tschzentrum in Ratzeborg,*
 *hier de Henwies op de een un anner plattd??tsche Veranstalten d?sse Week
bi uns in'n Norden:*
**

**

********

*Lichtwarksaal in Hamburg*

*Walter-A.-Kreye-Abend II*

*Dirk R?mmer stellt dat Wark v?r*

**

Ein weiteres Bibliotheksgespr?ch der Carl-Toepfer-Stiftung widmet sich dem
Werk von Walter A. Kreye, dem Bremer Schriftsteller und Rundfunkregisseur
(1922-1991).

Bekannt geworden ist u.a. seine "Fidele Weltgeschicht op Platt", z.B.
mit "Mord un Dootslag bi de Nibelungen".



Hamburg, Lichtwarksaal, Neanderstra?e 22, am Dienstag, 29. Nov. 2011, 18:30
Uhr - Eintritt frei

___________________

**

*Lauenburgische Akademie f?r Wissenschaft und Kultur*

*?Heimat un W??r?*



G?lzow - 1. Dezember 2011, 19:30 Uhr

Literarisch-musikalischer Abend op Platt im Markt Treff, Hauptstr. 21



Volkert Ipsen, L?beck

Der Poet und Liedermacher Volkert Ipsen spricht und singt das Plattdeutsch
seiner nordfriesischen Heimat, die er als junger Mann verlassen musste, um
in Kiel mit einem Studium zu beginnen. In seinem plattdeutschen Musik- und
Textprogramm zeigt der 57-j?hrige seine tiefe Verwurzelung in der
norddeutschen Heimat. Auf der Insel Nordstrand aufgewachsen, hat er die
Weite der Nordseelandschaft in sich aufgenommen. Dorthin hat es den heute
in L?beck lebenden P?dagogen immer wieder hingezogen. Dabei ber?hrt es ihn
zutiefst, dass moderne Entwicklungen wie Gro?wind- und Solaranlagen die
Landschaft seiner Jugend mehr und mehr ver?ndern. Das beeinflusst seine
Lieder und Texte. Aber er ist auch ein genauer Beobachter seiner
Alltagsumgebung. Und da wird der Satiriker Ipsen sp?rbar: Mit viel Witz
portr?tiert er seine Mitmenschen. Dar?ber hinaus versteht er es, ?beraus
humorvoll seine Lieder, Gedichte und Erz?hlungen zu moderieren und den
Zuh?rern einen bunten unterhaltsamen Abend der besonderen Art zu bieten.

Volkert Ipsen war mehrere Jahre lang f?r das Zentrum f?r Niederdeutsch in
Ratzeburg t?tig. Er ist Studiendirektor am L?becker
Carl-Jacob-Burckhardt-Gymnasium. Aktuelles unter ?mienleeder.blogspot.com?.



Eintritt 5 Euro / erm. 3 Euro (Sch?ler, Studenten)

Anmeldung ist unter Tel. 04542/87000 oder info at rzkultur.de m?glich.

In Kooperation mit dem MarktTreff G?lzow

___________________



*Gut Knoop bei Kiel*

*"Vun em un ehr un anner L??d"*

*Egen Gedichten un Vertellen vun Karl-Heinz Groth, Eckernf??r.*

**

Donnerstag, 1. Dezember 2011, 19 Uhr, Gut Knoop

**

Im sch?nen Herrenhaus am Nord-Ostseekanal ist Karl-Heinz Groth zu Gast, der
ausgew?hlte Texte seiner langj?hrigen Karriere als niederdeutscher
Schriftsteller pr?sentieren wird. Ein bisschen etwas vom Winter und von der
Weihnachtszeit, die inzwischen auch im Gutshaus Knoop eingekehrt ist, wird
auch dabei sein.



Eine Veranstaltung von PLATTGOLD, Tel. 04322-552031

___________________



*Lichtwarksaal Hamburg*

*"Wie die Alten sungen..."*

*Singen Sie hamburgisch!*



Professor Hermann Rauhe und Jochen Wiegandt erz?hlen und singen mit einem
Publikum, das "wie die Jungen zwitschern" soll!

Der Musiker und Liedersammler Jochen Wiegandt ist auf der Suche nach
verschollenem Liedgut, an das sich Hamburgerinnen und Hamburger hoffentlich
noch erinnern. Da d?rfte auch auch noch allerhand Plattdeutsches dabei sein.



Jochen Wiegandt, NDR 90,3 und die Carl-Toepfer-Stiftung, die zu diesem
Abend einl?dt:

Donnerstag, 1.12.2011, 18:30 - 20:30 Uhr, Lichtwarksaal, Neanderstra?e 22,
20459 Hamburg - Eintritt frei

___________________



*Kulturzentrum Marstall am Schloss e.V.*

*?Eenen in?n Sinn?*

*Achtersinnige Leder un humorige D??ntjes vun Jochen Jacobsen*

* *

Ahrensburg, Freitag, 2. Dez. 2011, 17:00 Uhr. L?becker Str. 8 - 22926
Ahrensburg



Der plattdeutsche Entertainer Jochen Jacobsen pr?sentiert achtersinnige
Leder un humorige D??ntjes. Dabei stellt er seine CD mit Eigenkompositionen
vor und singt Lieder von Klaus Groth bis C.M. Bellmann sowie plattdeutsche
Versionen franz?sischer Chansons und George-Gershwin-Melodien. Unter dem
Motto ?Sing maal wedder platt!? fordert er seine Zuh?rer zum Mitmachen auf.



Eintritt 14 Euro - www.marstall-ahrensburg.de

____________________



*Caf? Tagespost*

*"Wiehnachten un anner Opregen"*

*Kruuse Gedanken vun Ines Barber*

**

Dat schall woll en Heimspeel warrn: In Rendsborg is se to Huus: Ines
Barber, de Plattd??tsch-Reportersch vun'n NDR Welle Nord. Privaat schrifft
se allerhand schnaakschen Kraam. Un dat leest se nu v?r:

In't Caf? Tagespost an'n Fridag, 2. Dezember 2011, 19.30 Uhr, Bahnhofstra?e
12-16, 24768 Rendsburg.





Ik denk, dor is f?r jedeen wat dorbi.




**
*Hartli Gr?ten vun't Plattd??tschzentrum an'n 2**8**.11.2011*
*Volker Holm*
**

 *Zentrum f?r Niederdeutsch*
*Plattd??tschzentrum in Holsteen*
 www.niederdeutsch-zentrum.de


 *Wer in Zukunft keine E-Mail-Informationen vom ZfN haben m?chte, den
bitten wir, uns das in einer kurzen Nachricht mitzuteilen:
zfn at zfn-ratzeburg.de.*

----------

From. Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: Tradition ?

Ick will jug dit nu all' leiw' Lowlanners ok noch weiten laten. Dor deit
sick wat tau Wiehnachten. Dit wier h?t mien Kopp-Arbeid.


*De Makers hebben an all'ns dacht

*So is dat nu mal, Wiehnachten is dat hoge Fest f?r de Famili, und dat is
grotorrig! Man dat gifft je ok Minschen, de nu womoeglich kein Sippschaft
nich hebben un ok kein Fr?nn', nich un wat weit ick...
Oewer all' de Mitmakers von de grotorrig  CD, up de ick noch tau schriewen
(ok tau snacken) kam, hebben an dacht. Un so f?l ok up mi ein helle Schien,
un ick k?nn nu all bi dat V?rstellen von dit Kunstwark Wiehnachtsfreud
bel?wen.

Dat in Swerin beg?ng' Landsfunkhus NDR 1 MV hadd ok mi tau ein
"Funkhauskonzert" inladt. Oh wat heff ick mi freut!
Un mit Freud wier ick mit bi.

"*Hell ward dat in uns Stuben - Plattd?tsch Wiehnacht mit de
Fritz-Reuter-B?hn"* an'n Middeweek 23. Dag in'n N?welmaand (November) 2011
hentau Klock soeben in de Abendstunn'. Dat fein tausn?den Programm un dat
Drapen mit all' de  inlaad'n Tauh?rers in dat wiehnachtlich sm?ckte Foyer,
un ok 'n l?tten Rodspon v?rweg, let all liesing Freud' upkamen. Un allein
dat Wedderseihn mit olle un truuge Fr?nn' let ok Minschenleiw' upkamen, de
Plattd??tschen s?nd noch nich verklamt un ?mmer idel mit bi.

Taugliek hett de Fritz-Reuter-B?hn in dit Johr ehrn 85. Burtsdag fiert un
nu tau rechten Tied de niege CD v?rstellt. As all seggt, blot inladen G?st
woll so an f?ftig bet s??tig L??d nich blot ut Swerin hebben sick hier
drapen. Man, wat hebben wi uns v?r Freud ?marmt un dr?ckt un bi 'n l?tten
Rodspon 'n Str?mel vertellt.
Dat wier grotorrig, jawoll "Spitze"  odder "super"as man je h?tigendags so
seggen deit. Oewer disse W??r seggen mi gor nich tau, wo sch?n h?rt sick
dat an, wenn Jung un Olt sick noch up ehr Mudderspraak besinn'n. Un wo riek
un l?wig sei h?t noch is, dat all' k?nn' hier bel?wen.
Mal up ein anner un nich vermauden Oort un Wies' hebben de K?nstlers ehr
niege CD v?rstellt, un ick heff sei mi later glieksens k?fft, s?ss k?nn ick
dit je gor so vermellen, wo fein diss CD worden is. Ja, ?mmer wedder heff
ick ein Verlangen nah disse sch?ne Musik un uns' Platt.

Dat hett bestens funkschoniert mit *Hell ward  dat in uns Stuben -
Plattd?sch Wiehnachten: Frech, fr?hlich, feierlich. Das Weihnachts-Ensemble
der Fritz-Reuter-B?hne Schwerin mit alten und neuen plattdeutschen
Weihnachts-, Kinder- und Winterliedern sowie Texten und Gedichten zum Fest.
Dazu die Weihnachtsgeschichte up Platt.

*Egenlich heff ick nicks *freches *ruteh?rt, ja, spa?ig woll; villicht
wier't mihr Oewermaut. Is je ok egal, wir all' harden uns' Freud.

Mit all' de Texten up Platt in ein "Booklet" schr?wen. Ja, Dunnerl?chten,
Rainer Schobe? hett klauke un feine W??r  oewer dat Jubelleum von de
F-R-B?hn schr?wen un bannig deiplot' in de m?kelborgsche Traditschon un
denn' Richard Spethmann*hett hei nich verg?ten.
Disse niege CD hett ut mien Sicht  'n groten Pries verdeint. Na, wat nich
is, kann je noch kamen.

Un ein Bewiesen, wo fein K?nstlers ut Ost un West tausamenfunn'n hebben,
ick heff kein' ?nnerscheid markt, all' hebben's liekgaud un ein best'
Plattd??tsch snackt un sungen, man, un so sch?n as echte Profis. Also de
Mitmakers as Plattsnackers un -s?ngers hebben mi oewert??gt, ick heff nicks
nich intauwend'n.

De von Manfred Br?mmer schr?wen Riemels/Dichtels mal nahdenkern un mal taun
Hoegen hett hei sch?n in echte plattd??tsche Kl?er snackt, up wat f?r Ideen
hei oewer ok k?mmt, dat let mi wunnerwarken. Minsch Manfred,wo angelst du
de plietschen Ideen...? Hest ?mmer denn' Punkt an rechte St?d sett'.
Ja, un de Kron is de von Thomas M?ckel schr?ben also komponierte Musik .
Mit de niegen Texten un de Musik, sp?lt up verschieden Instrumenten is dit
so wat as ein *klassisch *CD worden.Un, hier holl ick denn' Wiesfinger hoch
- wi d?rben nich de Muskanten verg?ten! Mit ehr Musik ward de Minsch deip
anroegt (tief bewegt, ber?hrt).

So b?n ick tau de Mein kamen, hier hett'n olle Tradtischon
mit sinnig' niemodsche Traditschon verkn?tt.

Un nich verg?ten de Moderadschon bi dat Begr?uten un later bi dat Afseggen.
Heike Mayer un Thomas Lenz hebben up ehr eigen Oort *locker *v?r de G?sten
bestens snackt, kein Stamern un kein "?m un ?h"; sei hebben sick, so as man
seggt, denn' Ball fein tausp?lt un dat Publikum hett sick freut un dankt.

Groten Dank h?g ok ick f?r all' de Mitmakers, ok Technikers un an de, de mi
noch nich k?nnig s?nd un liesen ehr Arbeit dahn hebben. Oh Mann, un *NDR
Radio MV!
*An dissen Abend wiern wi all'tohopen ein grot' Famili.

Hartlich un mit ein Ihren (Ehren)
Hannelore Hinz
Tau Huus in Swerin

* Gr?nder der Niederdeutschen B?hne


V?l Freud mit ein hartlich Gr?uten.


Hanne


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 18:09:44 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:09:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.29.(01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.NOV.2011.100944.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2011 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Denis dujardin dujardin at pandora.be
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.28.(04) [EN]

Excellent Jacqueline. Wasn't aware of that contamination. Makes my day :-)

*Denis Dujardin
dujardin at telenet.be
www.denisdujardin.be
Flanders-Belgium
0032485328375

*
From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comc
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.27.(01) [AF-EN]

Dennis contributed the word smeukken to the growing palette of words with
which we ?word paint? Lowlands weather. That is getting close to E smog,
which I always thought was a contamination between smoke and fog. How come>

Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 18:14:38 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:14:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.11.29. (02) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.NOV.2011.101438.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2011 - Volume 02
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From: Utz H.Woltmann uwoltmann at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2011.11.28.(01) [EN]

An?n 28.11.2011 21:23, schrev Ron:

 That's Bremen Missingsch, right?
>

Yes, Bremen and the surrounding area.

We say: In Brem?n un umzu (bi de Tagenbarens un ook bi de Butenbremers).

Mit freundlichen Gr??en / Best regards
Utz H. Woltmann
Buchenweg 24
D-21635 Jork

Fon: ++49 4162 942995
Mobile: ++49 160 8580273
E-mail: uwoltmann at gmx.de


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 29 18:23:43 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:23:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.29 (03) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.NOV.2011.102343.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2011 - Volume 03
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From: list at marcusbuck.org
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.28 (03) [EN-NL]

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be

> Subject: LL-L Resources
>
> Vroeger zag
> men het liefst de vroege geschiedenis van Nederland door die kaartjes heen
> schemeren: de huidige dialectverschillen zouden teruggaan op
> taalverschillen tussen de Franken, de Saksen en de Friezen.
>
> Streektalen
>
> Tegenwoordig
>

Dit "vroeger - tegenwoordig" klinkt alsof er een tegenstelling of
tegenspraak is. Maar het is blijkbaar dat de verschillen "appelsien -
sinaasappel" of "spijkerbroek - jeans" geen onmiddelbaar verband kunnen
hebben met Franken, Saksen, Friezen. Slechts en middelbaar verband,
voorzover de uitbreiding van woorden stopde aan oude isoglossenbundels.
Maar de stopkracht van oude isoglossenbundels is erg swak geworden sinds de
standardtaal is alomtegenwoordig. Oude isoglossen worden verschoven door de
straaldruk van de standardtaal. Het articeltje toont het zelf, "appelsien"
is ouder, maar "sinaasappel" wint over. Dus zijn de kaartjes van de atlas
een nogal zwak argument tegen de invloed van Franken, Saksen en Friezen.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be
 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.28 (03) [EN-NL]

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. roger.thijs at euro-support.be
> Subject: LL-L Resources
> A new Dialect Atlas of the Dutch language area (in Europe) is reviewed in
"De Standard" today.
> Strange to me is the swap between komen/gekomen in the last paragraph

Attached are some maps from the paper edition of De Standaard.

The ?hadich? they give for Limburgish is in my version (of Vliermaal):
?Had oech gowd?.

Regards,
Roger
<uwoltmann at gmx.de>

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 30 19:52:39 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:52:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.30 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.30.NOV.2011.115239.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.29.(01) [EN]

I remember clearly in the 50s that magazines like Time regularly referred
to the word smog as new and as being an amalgam of fog and smoke. But my
etymological dictionary cites 1905 as its date of origin and in reference
to London, not Los Angeles.

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.28 (03) [EN-NL]

So b?n ick nahgahn bi *Tot ziens, *wat so gaud bi uns *Adsch?s ok
Tsch?s*heiten deit.

V?rweg pa?t disse Riemel von John Brinckman:

*        Adsch?s

*Du hest mi so v?l Fr?ndschaft dan
un b?st nu so wit mit mi gahn
d?rch Nacht un Dag un dick un d?nn,
un wi'ck di all, wat got is, g?nn'n -
ick segg di nu adsch?s!

Torecht heww ick wat Origs kl?hnt,
kann sin, tov?l ok v?r di dr?hnt;
na, jede Vagel fl?ut't sin Leed,
so as he nah sin'n Snabel heet -
ick segg di nu adsch?s!

Wi gahn nu all beid hier vuneen,
wen weet, wat wi ?ns weddersehn,
wen weet, wat du dat tweete Mal
ok stiggst mit mi de Landstrat dal -
ick segg di nu adsch?s!

Wen weet, wat ick ok Order krieg
un wider gah un wider stig;
ick h?ng, min'n Handstock an de Wand
un sch?dd di, Broder, nu de Hand
un segg di nu adsch?s!

Un nu wedder Perfesser Vo?lo:
*adsch?s *(*at??s, *meist verk?rzt *t??s) *der volkst?mliche Abschiedsgru?,
der sich im Weltkriege nicht hat verdr?ngen lassen und auch jetzt noch
unter Bekannten zu h?ren ist; lautlich auf eine 1739 in einem
Hochzeitsgedicht belegte Form *atj? *oder *at?? *('adju' zur?ckgehend;
selten daneben die nichtheimischen Formen*adje *und *adj?. *Im Gru?
vielfach mit gem?tvollen Wendungen verkn?pft: *adsch?s, wenn Se 't gaut
geiht, denken S' an uns*; wenn man ein Wiedersehen w?nscht: *adsch?s,
verg?t dat Wedderkamen nich! - *H?ufig neckend: *adsch?s, gr?? Gro?mudder
achter'n Aben; *auch reimend im Knabenreim: *adsch?s, st?k'n Finger in'n
Noors un gr??; adj?, hest ok Fl?h, adsch?s, hest ok L?s? - *In der
Gegenrede: *Adj? hett sick uphangen, nu seih du di b?ter v?r; *ironisch:
adsch?s, Welt, wi gahn in'n  Ehestand; beim zweiten Schnaps ruft man: *adsch?s,
Koorl, gr?? den annern*; wenn man beim Kartenspiel kein Gl?ck hat: *adsch?s,
Lisett, drei S?ssling liggen uppe Trepp. *- Un so k?nn ick hier noch v?l
von uptellen.

*tsch?s, *sch?s Abschiedsgru?; verbreitete Kurzform von *adsch?s; *von
span. *adi?s *?ber seem. Vermittlung hergeleitet wird; *tsch?s,  *?ft. *
sch?s.*
Gef?hltsbetonte Diminutivformen *tsch??ing, sch??ing.

*Na, denn Tsch??ing (dat Wuurt *hartlich *k?nt ji jug denn ja denken.)

Hanne* *

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 30 19:56:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:56:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2011.11.30.(02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.NOV.2011.115641.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2011 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Language Tips

All wedder niege Nahrichten von:


  *            PLATTNET-Nachrichten - 30**.11.2011 *

  **

**

   * *

**

*    *

**

*B?kertipp:*
*



?Was f?r ein sch?nes Buch, da freu ich mich zu.?


*

*So spricht Schleswig-Holstein*



(pn) Mit ?Moin, Moin? gr??en die Nordlichter morgens, mittags und abends.
Und weil?s so sch?n ist, breitet sich diese Formel allm?hlich ?ber die
ganze Republik aus. Jeder versteht, was gemeint ist. Aber wo er her, dieser
Ausdruck? Fragen wie diese beantwortet das 224 Seiten starke Buch, das
speziellen Ausdr?cken der Alltagssprache im Norden gewidmet ist.
Hervorgegangen ist es aus einer Aktion des Schleswig-Holsteinischen
Zeitungsverlags ?sh:z?, der seine Leser aufgefordert hatte,
Lieblingsredewendungen zu nennen und von typischen W?rtern und regional
bezogenen Begriffen zu berichten. Der Erfolg dieses Aufrufes ist
?berw?ltigend und die Flut der Einsendungen rei?t nicht ab. Weiterhin
erscheint t?glich in den Zeitungen des Verlags die Rubrik ?So spricht
Schleswig-Holstein?. Die sch?nsten, interessantesten Begriffe sind nun als
Buch erschienen. Dabei halfen ein wissenschaftlicher Beirat, der das
erforderliche Fachwissen beisteuerte, sowie der plattdeutsche
Schriftsteller und sh:z-Autor Karl-Heinz Groth, der die Leitung des
Redaktionsteams ?bernahm. Wer Spa? daran hat, den regionalen
Spracheigenarten des n?rdlichen Bundeslandes nachschlagend oder schm?kernd
auf den Grund zu gehen, der sollte sich dieses Taschenbuch in den
B?cherschrank stellen. Es ist ein zeitgem??es Heimatkundebuch, das gut
Platz nehmen kann zwischen DUDEN und neuem SASS.



*So spricht Schleswig-Holstein*

Herausgegeben vom Schleswig-Holsteinischen Zeitungsverlag

Redaktionsleitung: Karl-Heinz Groth

Fachbeirat: Wolfgang B?rnsen (MdB)

Prof. Dr. Willy Diercks

Prof. Dr. Silke G?ttsch-Elten

Prof. Dr. Thomas Steensen

Mit Cartoons von Kim Schmidt

Verlag Ellert & Richter, Hamburg 2011

ISBN 978-3-8319-0455-6

9,95 Euro



*(PLATTNET-Nachricht)*

*_______________________________________**
___________________________________________________* **

**

*PLATTNET.de   Nachrichten  **Volker Holm, Buchenweg 35, D-22926
Ahrensburg, Tel. 49-4102-4739108 -
**http://nachrichten.plattnet.de*<http://nachrichten.plattnet.de/>
* *

*PLATTNET.de   Nachrichten-Archiv: alle Nachrichten unter **
http://archiv.plattnet.de/* <http://archiv.plattnet.de/>* *

*PLATTNET.de  ist ein Dienst des Zentrums f?r Niederdeutsch in Holstein (**w
ww.niederdeutsch-zentrum.de**)  *

*PLATTNET.de ** **Nachrichten  k?nnen unter folgenden Bedingungen verwendet
und weiterverbreitet werden:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/deed.de*

*Eine Weitergabe der Adressaten-Daten, vornehmlich f?r gewerbliche Zwecke,
ist ausgeschlossen.*

*Wer in Zukunft keine E-Mail-Informationen von PLATTNET haben m?chte, den
bitten wir, uns das in einer kurzen Nachricht mitzuteilen: **
nieges at plattnet.de* <nieges at plattnet.de>* *

 *Mit best' Gr?uten.
*

* Hanne ut Swerin*


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 30 20:03:41 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:03:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Environment" 2011.11.30.(03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.30.NOV.2011.120341.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2011 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: History ?

Hallo Ron,

mi is upstund's de Infall kamen, ob wi ok oewer Klimawannel disketieren
k?nn' ...

http://www.umweltjournal.de/rezensionen/18657.php

*kein jubeln

**der himmel ist so wie ein sieb
das m?chtig grob schon ist
von oben will die Sonne
aber noch f?r's leben sein
und gibt ihr bestes
sie strengt sich an
jedoch von unten
stinkt nebel-rauch
man nennt's auch smog
von menschen gemacht
und schiebt sich durch das sieb
das helle verliert sein licht
und auch zugleich die zeit
wie lange kann mensch
helle sonne noch sehen
l??t sonnen-freiheit nach
H. Hinz 26.0.2008

*Ick heff dat mal hier riskiert.
*
*Hartlich.

Hanne

----------

From: R.F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Environment

Yes, Hanne, *any* subject may be discussed, as long as the core of the
discussion has direct relevance to the Lowlands.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 30 22:01:26 2011
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:01:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.30.(04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.NOV.2011.140126.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2011 - Volume 04
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From: Isaac M. Davis isaacmacdonalddavis at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.30 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

From: Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2011.11.29.(01) [EN]
>
> I remember clearly in the 50s that magazines like Time regularly referred
> to the word smog as new and as being an amalgam of fog and smoke. But my
> etymological dictionary cites 1905 as its date of origin and in reference
> to London, not Los Angeles.
>

Is it possible that it was a relatively recent loan from one dialect of
English to another, perhaps a result of contact between speakers in World
War II?

saac M. Davis

-- 

"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master."
?Abraham Lincoln


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