From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  1 19:17:21 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:17:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2012.01.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JAN.2012.111721.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 01 January 2012 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in January of 2012! A happy new year to all of you!

I send you best wishes for the various holidays that fall into the last
month of the Gregorian calendar year.



Welcome to the person that joined us since the beginning of December 2011!

*United States of America*:
       Iowa:
             Des Moines [1]

 *SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*Subject headers*

Some of you are still not following the subject header rule (see *Do not
mix topics* under Rules below). Here in brief:


   - *Only one topic per message*
   - *In responding to an earlier posting, please use the subject line that
   already exists for a given thread. Do not change or "tweak" it, not the
   date and language labels either!*
   - *Only if you start a thread may you suggest your own subject header,
   but do not insist on your subject header if I change it.*

*List Mail v Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as
responses to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this
distinction it could happen that your private message ends up posted to the
List. For administrative purposes, it's best if you use
lowlands.list at gmail.com.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from
the address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from
that address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to
unsubscribe or change their subscription configurations from addresses that
are not subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only
from the subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ([ ]). This indicates which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains
the URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting
proposals. In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities:



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon (in the US even groceries!) you might as well do so via our
Lowlands-L shops (so far in Canada, Germany, France, Japan, UK and USA - (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)) which have constantly changing
Lowlands-related selections. We (i.e. Lowlands-L) get a small percentage of
Amazon sales if you enter Amazon through these portals. Believe me: it
hardly pays a tiny fraction of the money I pay out of my own pocket to
bringing Lowlands-L to you, and I am not even counting the hours of work I
put into it.



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting
postings. So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.
*Many of you are still not following this rule. (Please see my note at the
top.)

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are visible only
to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward and
participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your
view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do something
in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides,
we will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not getting and doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up
your own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is
not an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name,
even if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please!

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


*Edit quotes:* If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
relevant to your response.


*Give credit:* Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If
you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as
the author. That simply will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe
authors the courtesy of crediting them by name.



*Sign off:* If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the
sign-off command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me (sassisch at yahoo.com) a message giving
us the old address and the new address. If you don't remember under which
address you were first subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the
new address and your name.



*Temporary Absence*

   - Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
   arriving for a given length of time, please write to us (
   lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be
   stopped and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members
   can attest, this has been working really well. It certainly beats the old,
   crude method of signing off and on again.
   - Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice.
   Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out"
   for some infraction or other. (I know this for sure only about those that
   contact me. But it happens again and again and involves even the nicest,
   best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this conclusion unless you have
   received prior reprimands and warnings (which happen very rarely, have not
   happened at all for well over two years). If you find yourself disconnected
   from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the automated server has
   unsubscribed your address because of repeated "bouncing," i.e., because
   your mail servers keep informing the list server that you cannot be reached
   or is filled above quota. Most of the time this is due to temporary
   disconnection.
   - Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or
   "spam" filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why
   our mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes.
   - So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam"
   filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem
   if all of the above fails.
   - Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an
   application. I'll be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
sassisch at yahoo.com


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  1 23:31:15 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 15:31:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.01 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JAN.2012.153115.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 01 January 2012 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: Dawn Work-MaKinne dawn at workmakinne.com
via<http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182>
 yahoo.com

Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2010.12.29 (02) [DE-NDS]


Dear Reinhard/Ron,

Thank you for the very helpful administrative email to begin the new year.
There are many things I need to learn as a returnee to the list. I have a
question that I tried to post to the list, but didn't accomplish very well.
I would like to request a translation of the post below, and I am willing
to pay to have this done. I am uncertain of the language (!) but I think
it's a form of Low Saxon? Anyway, what is list protocol for seeking help
like this? Or should someone like me who doesn't know the languages, not be
on the list at all? I can understand how that might be the case!

All my best, and happy new year!

Dawn Work-MaKinne
Des Moines, Iowa

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Traditions 'In de Twölwen'

Wenn't Johr tau End' geiht...

Vörweg Klaus Groth:
"Wir Plattdeutsche sind nicht eine naturwüchsige Kaste mit einer
volkstümlichen Poesie: sondern wir haben ein ganzes Menschenherz im Leibe
und einen vollen Atem in der Brust; - - - wir haben und geben Poesie,
urteilt, was sie als solche wert sei."

In ein lütt' Schummerstunn' vör de Wiehnachtstied, oewer ok twüschen
Wiehnachten un Niejohr hett  Größing womoeglich männigen Späukelkram
vertellt, dit is mi jüst so infollen bi den Storm letzt' Nacht...
Fru Waud is ok ein von de, de in de Twölwen bi Storm üm das Huus fleigen.
Un wenn ein so'n bäten swäklich in sienen  Gloven wier, denn künn so'n
Minsch duntaumalen woll wat taterich, oewerglöwsch, unglöwsch, also
'abergläubisch' warden.
De Twölwen, de twölwen Daag twüschen Wiehnachten un den'n 6. Dag in'n
Hartmaand (6. Jan.) sünd de  stickenbalkendüster (stockdunkel) Daag, un
männigein siniert oewer Späukels. Geister, Gespenster dräben ehr Unwäsen
tau Middennacht, un de Minschen müßten "Verbote un Gebote " inholl'n, süst
vertürten 's sick mit de Gespenster.
De "Wilde Jäger" dräw sien Unwäsen, de Drak (Drache) towte dörch de Wulken,
Fru Gaud', Fru Waud' harden 12 Hund'n, dat wieren de "Twölwen".  Fru Waud
(Waur) wier ne lütte dicke  Fru in Sommerkleeder.
De Unglöw wier so grot, so hebben de Minschen sick up all'ns instellt.
Dat sponn'n Gorn müßt all an'n Hilligen Abend von de Haspel nahmen warden,
süss künn dat Fru Goden behexen.
All de Geräten för den'n Acker nienich buten stahn laten, süss wüür de
Acker unlannig (unfruchtbar). An'n 24.12.  truugte man sick nich, Water ut
den'n Sod (Brunnen) tau halen, männigein nähm ok den'n Sodschwengel mit
in't Huus. Bevör de Käuh in de Twölwen wat tau suupen krägen, versöpen's
ein'n Hund in ein Waterlock.
Man künn jedoch de Hexen den'n Taugang in dat Huus vermiesen, wenn man
einen niegen Bessen vör dat Heck-Duur leggen deh.
Dat gäw oewer ok in de Twölwen gaude  Brüüke, de den'n Minschen
Tauvertrugen un em Glück un Riekdaun schenkten.
Naja, un an so'n Späukel wüür denn womoeglich glöwt, dunnmals ja!
So künn'n Mann un Fru dat Glücksgorn  ne Fitz (eine Docke) unrecht in de
Niejohrsnacht spennen. De Mann müßt' dat uphaspeln un ... beid mößten dat
splitterfadennaakt maken; un dat wier denn dat Twölwengorn, also dat
Glücksgorn. (Dat stell ick mi recht vergnäuglich vör...)
Un wenn 'n Quarrbücksen-Goern harr, denn steckte man so'n Schietebücks
stillswiegend dreimal dörch dat Twölwengorn (Twölftengorn), dat süll helpen.
Un wenn ein so'n, ick segg/schriew dat mal up Hochdüütsch "Bettnässer"
wier, denn wüür em de Fitz Twölwengorn an'n Dunnersdag üm den'n Hals hängt.
Ja, männigmal hadden de "bösen Geister" ok wat Gaudet an sick.
Dat wier noch nich all'ns, man mi dücht', dit langt woll.

Hm, giwwt dat annerswo ok in de Twölwen allerhand Kamedi...
Dat all' un mihr heff ick 1984 sammelt un upschräwen in  "Von Niklas,
Ruhklas un Julklapp" un bi de URANIA vördragen un utsmückt mit Vertellers
un Gedichten un Wiehnachtsmusik up Keyboard un Treckfiedel...

Also wohrt jug in de Twölwen!
Ick hefft dat man blotsen gaud meint...

*          **Niejohr*
* Will Storm bi Küll un Snei mit mi nu strieden?*
* Lop rin in't Land un finn ein anner Flagg,*
* mi is, as läwte hier de ierste Dag,*
* sien weike Farw mit kloren Klang' strakt Lieden.*
* *
* Un in de Still finn ick den'n deipen Fräden;*
* gah ick de ierste Spoor hier dörch dat Land?*
* Kein Rauh dat Hart, kein Minsch tau'n fründlich Räden,*
* säuk wider nu ein Hus un Minschenhand.*
* *
* Vör mi kein Spoor, taudeckt de Ierd mit Snei,*
* mit Maut will ick den'n frömden Weg nu finn'n,*
* noch bäter geiht't, fläut ick mien Melodei.*
* *
* Kiek noch mal üm un wedder eins mien Sinn'n,*
* peer knasch betau, un ihr ick mi verseih,*
* drap ick bi Küll ein von mien ollen Frünn'n.*
* *
* All' mien Gräuten un best' Wünschen*
* för 2012! *
* *
* Hanne*

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Hello, Dawn!

Thanks for your inquiry above.

Not all subscribers can understand all languages used here on Lowlands-L.
Most of them just live with this. It is up to the individual to decide
whether or not not understanding all posts is too great a detriment.
Personally, I recommend creating a friends base here on the List,
consisting of people that help each other with translations or just
overviews.

The post you are inquiring about is indeed in a form of Low Saxon, namely
of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, an area that for several decades existed
east of the Iron Curtain. The author, Hannelore Hinz (hannehinz at t-online.de)
of Schwerin (Swerin) has published numerous works of different genres, is a
fount of knowledge about regional traditions, and in Northern Germany she
has the byname Treckfiedel Hanne ("Squeezebox Hanne"). Here is her
trilingual website: http://www.lowlands-l.net/hanne/

Naturally, Hannelore knows German besides Low Saxon. She began studying
English only recently.

Hanne's post about does not directly refer to your initial post under
"Traditions." It mentions a number of regional folk traditions connected
with the Christmas and New Year's season.

I hope this was at least partly helpful.

Best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan  2 19:32:23 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:32:23 -0800
Subject: "Traditions" 2012.01.02 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JAN.2012.113223.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 02 January 2012 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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=====================================================


From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: "Traditions" 2012.01.01 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]

Dear Ron and Dawn Work-MaKina!

I thinks this translator is useful:
http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT

Dawn Work-MaKina words made me thought-provoking. I have used this letter
for a word translator. I would prefer, I could alone find the reight words.
I really should attend a special English classes, where I can learn for the
formulation Lowlands list. But this is not possible. I will try if I can
call my English teacher a person who I regard Lowlands list which can help
an individual basis. Maybe I would have to work out a special word list in
order to even find a way.
Everything is possible. Please be patient. I will speak honestly acquired
language. But here I miss the dialogue.
I can only thank again our Ron.

With best regards.
Hanne, the Low German


Lieber Ron und Dawn Work-MaKina.

Ich denke, dieser Übersetzer ist brauchbar (s. oben):

Dawn Work-MaKina Worte haben mich nachdenklich gestimmt. Ich habe für
dieses Schreiben einen Wortübersetzer benutzt. Es wäre mir lieber, ich
könnte allein schon die richtigen Wörter finden. Ich müßte eigentlich einen
speziellen English-Unterricht besuchen, wo ich das Formulieren für
Lowlands-List lernen kann. Aber das ist hier nicht möglich. Ich will
versuchen, ob mir mein Englisch-Lehrer eine Person nennen kann, die mir,
was Lowlands-List angeht, individuell helfen kann. Vielleicht müßte ich mir
eine spezielle Wortliste erarbeiten, um überhaupt einen Weg zu finden.
Alles ist möglich. Bitte haben Sie noch etwas Geduld.Ich will eine ehrlich
erlernte Sprache sprechen. Mit fehlt aber hier der Dialog. - Ich kann nur
immer wieder unserem Ron danken.
Er ist mein Vorbild. (He is my .....? or *sich jemanden zum Vorbild nehmen *to
take someone as an example , also = Ron is my example.

Mit besten Grüßen.
Hanne die Plattdeutsche

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan  3 02:54:47 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:54:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.02 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JAN.2012.185447.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 02 January 2012 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Dear Lowlanders,

Lately we have been mentioning phonological metathesis again, namely
triggered by the words *sporkel* and *sprokkel*. There are numerous cases
of metathesis amongst the Germanic languages, the Lowlands group included.

First of all, what are we talking about here?

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29):

*Metathesis* (English pronunciation:
/məˈtæθəsɪs/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English>;
from Greek μετά-θε-σις, from
μετα-τί<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduplication#Proto-Indo-European>-θη-μι
"I put in a different order": *Latin trānspositiō*) is the re-arranging of
sounds <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoneme> or
syllables<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllable>in a word, or of
words <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words> in a sentence. Most commonly it
refers to the switching of two or more contiguous sounds, known as *adjacent
metathesis*[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29#cite_note-Strazny-0>or
*local metathesis*:[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29#cite_note-1>

   - fo*li*age → **fo*il*age
   - ca*val*ry → **ca*lva*ry

Metathesis may also involve switching non-contiguous sounds, known as
*nonadjacent
metathesis*, *long-distance
metathesis*,[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29#cite_note-Strazny-0>or
*hyperthesis*:[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29#cite_note-2>

   - Latin pa*r*abo*l*a > Spanish pa*l*ab*r*a 'word'
   - Latin mi*r*acu*l*um > Spanish mi*l*ag*r*o 'miracle'

Many languages have words that show this phenomenon, and some use it as a
regular part of their grammar (e.g. the Fur
language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_language>).
The process of metathesis has altered the shape of many familiar words in
the English language <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language>, as
well.

The original form before metathesis changed may be deduced from older forms
of words in the language's lexicon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicon>,
or, if no forms are preserved, from phonological
reconstruction<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_reconstruction>
.
Within the context of *sporkel* and *sprokkel*, our Heiko mentioned his
child's "acts of metathesis." To further our understanding of this
phonological phenomenon, I really do believe that it behooves us to look at
child's language.

In actual fact, I wonder if what is at play here is a preference for more
"natural" or "primeval" syllable structures, and I wonder if this
preference is programmed in us (in the form of ease of pronunciation) and
at least in part accounts for cases of metathesis. In other words, certain
syllable structures are "more natural" and possibly more archaic than
otherstructures are perceived as being easiest to pronounce.

Among phonologists, much has been made in recent decades about primeval
syllable structure, and it has been postulated that the structure #CV# is
the mother of all syllable types. (C = consonant, V = vowel, # = syllable
boundary) To put it simply, *papa* would be more natural than *pap* or *ap*,
not to mention *arp*, *parp*, *palp*, *pamp, plap*, *plarp*, etc.

Little Jonah, my rabbi's 1+-year old son, tends to throw his arms up at
adults and say, "Puh!" ([pʰʌ]). I interpret this as a metathesized form of
"Up!" ([ʔʌp]). (In other words, he wants you to pick him up.) Would you
agree with this?

Do you have any further thoughts or inside into the phenomenon of
metathesis and "naturalness" of syllable structures?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan  3 03:55:49 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:55:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.02 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JAN.2012.195549.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"
Beste Ron,

You wrote:

Little Jonah, my rabbi's 1+-year old son, tends to throw his arms up at
adults and say, "Puh!" ([pʰʌ]). I interpret this as a metathesized form of
"Up!" ([ʔʌp]). (In other words, he wants you to pick him up.) Would you
agree with this?

Do you have any further thoughts or inside into the phenomenon of
metathesis and "naturalness" of syllable structures?


On the level of children/babies, it is maybe also a matter of "mirroring"
sounds, rather than copying them. When you talk to him, and you say "u-p",
he reciprocates by first repeating the letter he heard last, his mind is
not (yet) focussed on remembering sounds in a premidated way and then
copying them. His response is more like an echo from the other side of the
valley. He's sending back what he heard last and wants to be some sort of
mirror of your sounds. Not a replica, but a mirror, because he knows he's
different. I think this sort of conversation taps into what we know as
"call and response" in blues and gospel. Just my two cents.

This reflection about a baby realising he is somebody else may match two
things I often heard: girls learn quicker how to speak + they exhibit
greater empathy...maybe one triggers the other.

Initially this habit sticks, and part of growing up is of course to learn
how to lose this behavior (bit comparable to learning the tenses, and then
notice there are strong verbs). For some it's just a lot more difficult to
unlearn than it is to learn.

Moreover, certain combinations are definitely favored above others, because
they hook better into previously acquired vocabulary, assimilation.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  4 19:11:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:11:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.04 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JAN.2012.111119.0800.>

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From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language"


>From Heinrich Becker:

Is this a joke I got from Oregon - then it is a good one -  or does anybody
have serious informations of this matter?

*The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
will be the official language of the European Union rather than German,
which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English
spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in
plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c".. Sertainly, this will
make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in
favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one
less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f".. This will make words like
fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always
ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is
disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with
"z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining
"ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU
understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze
forst plas. *

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Humor

Hi, Heinrich!

This "joke" has been sent around for many years, if not decades, now. I
guess it sprang from anti-EU sentiments.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  4 19:18:49 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:18:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.04 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JAN.2012.111849.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.02 (02) [EN]


Happy New Year!

Funny, our youngest son used to say "leh!" [lE] as a baby, so we told
eachother he was asking for milk, in French (lait).

I doubt though if "puh!" can be called metathesis from "up", why would P be
aspirated then?
In Dutch "puh!" is the word children use when sticking their tongue out, to
make fun of or ridiculize someone.
So maybe that's how the little rabbi's son is telling you what he thinks of
you  ;-)

Ingmar


From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Phonology

Dear Lowlanders,

Lately we have been mentioning phonological metathesis again, namely
triggered by the words sporkel and sprokkel. There are numerous cases of
metathesis amongst the Germanic languages, the Lowlands group included.

First of all, what are we talking about here?

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29):

Metathesis (English pronunciation: /məˈtæθəsɪs/; from Greek μετά-θε-σις,
from μετα-τί-θη-μι "I put in a different order": Latin trānspositiō) is the
re-arranging of sounds or syllables in a word, or of words in a sentence.
Most commonly it refers to the switching of two or more contiguous sounds,
known as adjacent metathesis[1] or local metathesis:[2]

foliage → **foilage
cavalry → **calvary
Metathesis may also involve switching non-contiguous sounds, known as
nonadjacent metathesis, long-distance metathesis,[1] or hyperthesis:[3]

Latin parabola > Spanish palabra 'word'
Latin miraculum > Spanish milagro 'miracle'
Many languages have words that show this phenomenon, and some use it as a
regular part of their grammar (e.g. the Fur language). The process of
metathesis has altered the shape of many familiar words in the English
language, as well.

The original form before metathesis changed may be deduced from older forms
of words in the language's lexicon, or, if no forms are preserved, from
phonological reconstruction.

Within the context of sporkel and sprokkel, our Heiko mentioned his child's
"acts of metathesis." To further our understanding of this phonological
phenomenon, I really do believe that it behooves us to look at child's
language.

In actual fact, I wonder if what is at play here is a preference for more
"natural" or "primeval" syllable structures, and I wonder if this
preference is programmed in us (in the form of ease of pronunciation) and
at least in part accounts for cases of metathesis. In other words, certain
syllable structures are "more natural" and possibly more archaic than
otherstructures are perceived as being easiest to pronounce.

Among phonologists, much has been made in recent decades about primeval
syllable structure, and it has been postulated that the structure #CV# is
the mother of all syllable types. (C = consonant, V = vowel, # = syllable
boundary) To put it simply, papa would be more natural than pap or ap, not
to mention arp, parp, palp, pamp, plap, plarp, etc.

Little Jonah, my rabbi's 1+-year old son, tends to throw his arms up at
adults and say, "Puh!" ([pʰʌ]). I interpret this as a metathesized form of
"Up!" ([ʔʌp]). (In other words, he wants you to pick him up.) Would you
agree with this?

Do you have any further thoughts or inside into the phenomenon of
metathesis and "naturalness" of syllable structures?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA**

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" [EN]

I think there may be a connection with what's called dyslexia and
metathesis. Our youngest son, now eight years old, has some difficulties
learning to read properly, the teacher thinks he may be dyslectic.
And in his speech, whether he's reading our just speaking,  metathesis
regularly occurs, especially in longer, difficult or 'learned' words. E.g.
 navigatie-systeem becomes nagivatie-styseem (car navigation system),
parkeerplaats becomes karpeerplaats (parking place) etc.
Nowadays, this kind of "mistakes" will be corrected in school of course,
but in times that people didn't go to school or even didn't write at all,
whole populations could speak that way. Especially when we realize that
there must have been hundreds of different languages spoken next to
eachother in areas where there are now only a few, and I guess in new
mother language learning processes, there will have occured a lot of
metathesis and other interesting features as well. A good example are the
creole languages, or the differences between the Romance languages and
dialects.

Ingmar

Ingmar

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan  5 19:18:22 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 11:18:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.05 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JAN.2012.111822.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.04 (02) [EN]


From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" [EN]

I think there may be a connection with what's called dyslexia and
metathesis. Our youngest son, now eight years old, has some difficulties
learning to read properly, the teacher thinks he may be dyslectic.
And in his speech, whether he's reading our just speaking,  metathesis
regularly occurs, especially in longer, difficult or 'learned' words. E.g.
 navigatie-systeem becomes nagivatie-styseem (car navigation system),
parkeerplaats becomes karpeerplaats (parking place) etc.
[...]

Hi,

This kind of  'speaking-mistakes' are quite common for children, and can
last til the 10th year.
This shouldn't be connected with dyslectic problems.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Phonology

Hallo Lowlanners,

Dat is je ein deip loten Thema. Ick heff mi so gaud as ick künn mit befat'.
'DUDEN 5 Das Fremdwörterbuch' vermellt: *Metathese* u. *Metathesis* :
Lautumstellung
in einem Wort, auch bei Entlehnung in eine andere Sprache (z.B. Wepse
-Wespe, Born -Bronn)
.
Un denn heff ick noch dit funn':

http://www.multilingualarchive.com/ma/enwiki/de/Metathesis_(linguistics)#Metathesis_in_English

Un bi 'Wissen.de/Bildung' stünn schräwen: Umstellung eines Lautes innerhalb
eines Worts; häufig bei  *r**  *(z.B. Bo*r*n - B*r*unnen).

Ein Henwiesen up dat Bauk:
Phonetically Based Phonology EDITED BY Bruce  Hayes, Robert Kircher and
Donca Steriade, copyrighted Material  CAMBRIDGE, s. Seite 117
'The evolion of metathesis'  JULIETTE BLEVINS AND ANDREW GARRETT:

Dat künn oewer ok sien, ick vermell di hier Olle Kamell'n.

Hm, jüst tau rechten Tied noch 'n Gedanken, denn müßt dat je ok bi
Nedderdüütsch  so taugahn...?

An jug all' best' Gräuten.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan  5 19:23:20 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 11:23:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.05 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JAN.2012.112320.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.04 (01) [EN]


From: Heinrich Becke*r* <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language"

>From Heinrich Becker:

Is this a joke I got from Oregon - then it is a good one -  or does anybody
have serious informations of this matter?

*The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
will be the official language of the European Union rather than German,
which was the other possibility. *

*As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English
spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in
plan that would become known as "Euro-English". *

*In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c".. Sertainly, this will
make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in
favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one
less letter.*

*There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f".. This will make words like
fotograf 20% shorter. *

*In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. *

*Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always
ben a deterent to akurate speling. *

*Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is
disgrasful and it should go away. *
* *
*By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with
"z" and "w" with "v". *

*During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining
"ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl. *

*Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU
understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru. *

*Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze
forst plas. *

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Humor

Hi, Heinrich!

This "joke" has been sent around for many years, if not decades, now. I
guess it sprang from anti-EU sentiments.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Hi,

I'm sorry to say, but for me this makes perfect sense:
English books will become thinner, and so we save a lot of birch trees.
I think that Lowlands has to inform the Green Politicians of the
Euro-Parliament about it.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan  6 22:10:09 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:10:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.06 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JAN.2012.141009.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.05 (02) [EN]


Enyvay, I zink it's kvite funny!
Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Humor

Hi, Heinrich!

This "joke" has been sent around for many years, if not decades, now. I
guess it sprang from anti-EU sentiments.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

From: Theo Homan [log in to unmask]
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.04 (01) [EN]

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan  6 22:12:44 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:12:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.06 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JAN.2012.141244.0800.>

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From: Utz H.Woltmann uwoltmann at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.05 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]


 An´n 05.01.2012 20:18, schrev Hannelore Hinz över *Metathese*:

denn müßt dat je ok bi Nedderdüütsch  so taugahn...?


Moin Hanne,*

*ik heff daar en Bispill to funnen:*

"dörven/dröven *>dürfen, bedürfen, benötigen<

Im heute gebräuchlichen Verb *dörven / dröven *sind die Formen und
Bedeutungen zweier verschiedener älterer Verben zusammengefallen:
*dörven *>dürfen<
und *dör(s)en* >wagen, trauen, sich (etwas) zutrauen<.

Bei dem Verb *dörven *ist ein häufiger Wechsel von *v *und *b* zu
beobachten. Die *r*-Metathese (Umstellung des *r*-Lautes) ist weit
verbreitet. Große regionale Wörterbücher ordnen daher das Verb
unterschiedlich ein: *dörben / dörven* (Schleswig-Holstein/
Mecklenburg), *dröven / dörven *(Hamburg/Niedersachsen), *dröfen / düren *
(Ostfriesland).

Die Metathese *dörven / dröffen *ist bei allen Formen üblich.

                   Präsens                    Präteritum
Sg. 1. (ik)     dörf / dröff                dörf / dröff
      2. (du)    dörfst / dröffst           dörfst / dröffst
      3. (he)    dörf / dröff                dörf / dröff
Pl.  1. (wi)     dörft / drööft              dörven / dröffen
      2. (ji)      dörft / drööft              dörven / dröffen
      3. (se)    dörft / drööft              dörven / dröffen

Imperativ Sg. *dörf / dröff   *Pl. *dörft / drööft
*Part. Prät. *dörft / dröfft"*

Wolfgang Lindow / Dieter Möhn / Hermann Niebaum / Dieter Stellmacher / Hans
Taubken / Jan Wirrer: Niederdeutsche Grammatik, Verlag Schuster Leer, 1.
Auflage 1998, S. 110/111

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  7 04:45:35 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 20:45:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.06 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JAN.2012.204535.0800.>

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From: "Fonken, Gael M. [foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu]" <
foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu>
 Subject: "Humor" [EN]

From: Heinrich Becke*r* <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language"

>From Heinrich Becker:

Is this a joke I got from Oregon - then it is a good one -  or does anybody
have serious informations of this matter?

*The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby
Englishwill be the official language of the European Union rather than
German, which was the other possibility. *

*As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English
spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in
plan that would become known as "Euro-English".…*

 From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Humor
Hi, Heinrich!
This "joke" has been sent around for many years, if not decades, now. I
guess it sprang from anti-EU sentiments.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



Greetings all,

   I’m back on line listening in again.  Yes, this joke comes around the
block once and awhile… and I enjoy it every time as if I had not heard it
before. This time, I’m in the midst of reading a book about the on-going
orthography debates in Germany called *Spelling trouble?: language,
ideology and the reform of German
orthography<http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=4uCRUGuEU9cC&oi=fnd&pg=PR6&dq=%22Spelling+Trouble%22&ots=WlPDYg850E&sig=qGVT8D9_k9IK2_ms3mZL8UAo4RY>
,* 2005, which puts a new light on the joke.



  I begin to wonder *what finer-grained meaning this joke might have
had*at one time
*in the lowlands* since Low Saxon and other lowlander groups exist
someplace in between English and High German.  Not sure which side of this
supposed “English-German” divide to imagine myself as a descendent of Platt
speakers from the lower Rhine-Dutch border.  Perhaps some of you know more
about the lingering issues here… Who exactly are the ones pushing for
establishing uniform spelling codes of any type. What happens to people in
the middle?



Gael Fonken
St. Cloud Minnesota, USA.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  7 15:17:44 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 07:17:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.07 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JAN.2012.071744.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.06 (02) [DE-NDS]

Moin Utz un Lowlanners.

Kumpelment Utz! Dat heff ick nich dacht, dacht' ick so.

Bi Perfesser Voßlo heff ick ok wat funn'n:

*dörben, *dörwen dürfen, dörf, dröff, *dat dröff 'ck nich daun; dat dröfst
du nich; dat dörwt*
*nich witt bliben; dat dröft nich lang duern: hei hett sick sin Leder (sein
Lebtage)* *nich uttowen dröfft. *Mnd. *dörven*

*drütteihn, *dürteihn; scherzhafter Ausruf: *Gott help uns all' dürteihn* *säd'
de Pötter, dor fel he mit 'n Dutzend Pött von 'n Bœhn; drütteihn is ne böse
Tall, säd' de Pötter, donn föl he mit 'n Dutzend Töllers ut de Luk;
dürteihn is de Galgenstall; Nummer  drütteihn *Abort;
Beteuerungsformel: *wenn dat nich wohr is, denn sleiht 't drütteihn; Anno
drütteihn *häufig für die Zeit der Befreiungskriege; Altersangabe: *een
lütt Mäken von soone Jahre  drüttein.
*Am dreizehnten eines Monats dürfen die Schiffe nicht auslaufen; wer  am
13. Dezember geboren ist, kann mehr sehen als andere Leute. -
Mnd. *dörtein, drüttein.*

Ick säuk noch nah mihr Wüür.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  7 22:17:30 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:17:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2012.01.07 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JAN.2012.141730.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L  "Humor" 2012.01.06 (03) [EN]

Un wedder heit dat "Hallo Lowlanners".

Fonken, Gael M.  wrote:

*Spelling trouble?: language, ideology and the reform of German orthography*
.

*Rechtschreibung Probleme: Sprache, Ideologie und die form der deutschen
Rechtschreibung*

http://www.neue-rechtschreibung.net/

Heit  dat nu: Ick snack platt *odder *ick snack Platt?

Un wat nu kümmt, schriew ick up Hochdüütsch, denn künn dat womoeglich ein
von uns Maaten  lichter in dat  Ingelsch oewerdragen,  un taugliek is dat
ein Liehrstunn'.

*Sprechen Sie Deutsch oder deutsch?

*Geschrieben am 29. Mai 2009 Dagmar Jenner (Keine Kommentare)

Die Groß- und Kleinschreibung von Sprachen bereitet paradoxerweise auch
Sprachprofis Probleme. Heute erhielt ich eine Bewerbung einer Übersetzerin,
die angab, *deutsch-englisch-Übersetzerin *zu sein. Hier ist die
Kleinschreibung entschieden falsch, weil es sich um ein Substantiv handelt.
Sprachen als Adjektive wiederum werden kleingeschrieben: *Er hat einen
englischen Akzent. Sie trägt ihr Referat französisch vor.
*Sobald eine Präposition davor steht, liegt eine Substantivierung vor und
es wird großgeschrieben: *Sie trägt ihr Referat auf Französisch vor. Mit
Englisch kommt man heutzutage fast überall zurecht.
*Obwohl hier keine Präposition vorliegt, schreibt man die Sprache auch in
folgendem Beispiel groß, weil ein Possessivpronomen auch  auf eine
Substantivierung hinweist: *Mit meinem Italienisch ist es nicht weit her.
*Übrigens sind in folgendem Beispiel beide Möglichkeiten erlaubt.
*Wir sprechen Französisch./Wir sprechen französisch.
*Erklärung: Hier kann man einerseits nach dem Substantiv fragen: *Welche
Sprache sprechen Sie? *Die Antwort ist dann ein großgeschriebenes
Substantiv.
Wenn Sie diese Aussage als Antwort auf die Frage *Wie sprechen Sie? *verstehen,
können Sie kleinschreiben:  *Wir sprechen französisch.
*Abschließend: Da es sich bei einer Übersetzerin um ein Substantiv
handelt, wird natürlich auch das zusammengesetzte Substantiv
großgeschrieben: *Deutsch-Englisch-Übersetzerin.
Ick snack platt  odder ick snack Platt.

**Wer zuletzt lacht, lacht am besten.*
*Who laughs last, laughs best.*
*
*Hanne*
*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  8 23:09:49 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:09:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.08 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JAN.2012.150949.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

Beste Hannelore,

You wrote about metathesis:

Hm, jüst tau rechten Tied noch 'n Gedanken, denn müßt dat je ok bi
Nedderdüütsch  so taugahn...?


How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?

Plenty of Lowlands dialects realise something along the lines of "ga(r)s,
ge(r)s". The pair "græs, gærs" already existed in Old English by the way,
metathesis is old and pretty universal. This is the kind of stuff language
architects love to straighten out. Maybe they were more active in Northern
Germany than elsewhere?

Regarding plant names, I just discovered that a huge database of Dutch
plantnames is now accessible online:

PLAND <http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/pland/>

According to the makers, it's the biggest in its sort (worldwide) and
contains everything that has been published since the early 19th century.
Mapping is also provided and the interface works really well. Moreover, all
extra user input is very much appreciated.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium
*
*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan  9 19:50:13 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 11:50:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JAN.2012.115013.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Luc and all!

How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?

Plenty of Lowlands dialects realise something along the lines of "ga(r)s,
ge(r)s". The pair "græs, gærs" already existed in Old English by the way,
metathesis is old and pretty universal. This is the kind of stuff language
architects love to straighten out. Maybe they were more active in Northern
Germany than elsewhere?

Please allow me to get the ball rolling.

No, I am not aware of "grass" equivalents with metathesis in Low Saxon, but
I would not be too surprised if some dialects turned out to have such
forms. There appears to be no consistent metathesis rule (rV ~ Vr, etc.).
Such occurrences are sporadic.

However, you mentioning "grass" brings up another interesting phonological
phenomenon in Low Saxon, this one apparently being consistent.

The phonemic (i.e. underlying) form of the Low Saxon equivalent of "grass"
is /graz/. The vowel is short, and the final consonant undergoes devoicing:


   - /graz/ => [gras] *Gras *'grass', 'blade of grass'


Underlying voicedness of the final consonant is revealed in the plural
forms:


   - (/grääzə/ >) => *Grẹs'* *~ Gräs'* [greːˑz] ~ [grɛːˑz] (superlength) ~
   (/greezər/ >) *Grẹser* ~ *Gräser* [ˈgreːzɐ] ~ [ˈgrɛːzɐ] 'blades of grass'


In other words, the singular form has a short vowel while the plural forms
have a long (and in this case umlauted) vowel. above, this is a pattern;
e.g.:


   - singular: /hov/ => *Hoff* [hɔf] 'court', 'yard', 'farm'
   plural: (/höövə/ >) => *Höv'* [høːˑv] ~ [hœːˑv] (superlength) ~
   (/höövən/ >) => *Höven* [ˈhøːvm̩] ~ [ˈhœːvm̩] 'courts', 'yards', 'farms'


   - singular: /tog/ => *Tog* (~ *Toch*)* *[tʰɔx] 'draw', 'procession',
   '(railway) train'
   plural: (/töögə/ >) => *Tọ̈g'* ~ *T**œ**g'* [tʰøːˑɣ] ~ [tʰœːˑɣ]
   (superlength) 'draws', 'processions', '(railway) trains'

Question:

   - It seems to be specific to cases of superlength. Is this so?

In the equivalent cases in southern-based Standard German pronunciation,
the vowel is long in all instances, although the orthography does not
indicate this:


   - singular: /graaz/ => [grɑːs] *Gras *'grass', 'blade of grass'
   plural: /grääzer/ => *Gräser* [ˈgreːzɐ] ~ [ˈgrɛːzɐ] 'blades of grass'
   - singular: /hoof/ => *Hof* [hoːf] 'court', 'yard', 'farm'
   plural: (/hööfə/ >) => *Höfe *[ˈhøːfə] 'courts', 'yards', 'farms'
   - singular: /ʦuug/ => *Zug** *[ʦʰuːk] 'draw', 'procession', '(railway)
   train'
   plural: (/ʦüügə/ >) => *Z**üge* [ˈʦʰyːgə] 'draws', 'processions',
   '(railway) trains'

However, in northern-based Standard German, evidently due to Low Saxon
substrata, the singular forms tend to be treated as in Low Saxon:

   - singular: /graz/ => [gras] *Gras *'grass', 'blade of grass'
   plural: /grääzer/ => *Gräser* [ˈgreːzɐ] ~ [ˈgrɛːzɐ] 'blades of grass'
   - singular: /ʦuug/ => *Zug** *[ʦʰʊx] 'draw', 'procession', '(railway)
   train'
   plural: (/ʦüügə/ >) => *Z**üge* [ˈʦʰyːgə] 'draws', 'processions',
   '(railway) trains'

Due to a different form on the phonemic level, this does not apply here:

   - singular: /hoof/ => *Hof* [hoːf] 'court', 'yard', 'farm'
   plural: (/hööfə/ >) => *Höfe *[ˈhøːfə] 'courts', 'yards', 'farms'

Any observations, comments, insights?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan  9 23:12:26 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:12:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JAN.2012.151226.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.08 (01) [EN-NDS]

Hallo Luc un all' Lowlanners,

You wrote:

        How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?
        Wie spricht man "Gras" in Niederdeutsch?
        Woans snackt man "Gras" up Plattdüütsch?

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*Gras, *ä. Gres n.,
Sammelbezeichnung der Weide und Wiesenpflanzen.
Sprachliche Belege im eig. Sinne: gramen 'Graß'.
*Grashalm: *Spier, Grasspier Pl.: Spieren

Hochdeutsch sprechen wir Gras [*gra:s*],
Up Plattdüütsch seggen wi ok Gras oewer so [*gras*], dat  *s *as* * *ß*odder
*ss* snacken.*        *

Im bildl. Gebrauch ist der Graswuchs ein Zeichen für unbetretenen Boden,
daher die
sprw. Aussage von einem vielbegangenen Wege: *up 'n Weg, wo väl gahn, waßt
kein Gras;*
auf schwere Schläge: *wo de henlangt, waßt in sœben Johr keen Gras*.

FN (Flurnamen): *Grasbrauk, -hoff, -holm, -koppel, -kraug, -kul, -lock,
-muur, -uut, -weg, -wisch.*
Mnd. *gras*, *gres *n.

*Keep off the grass! *Betreten des Rasens verboten

IDIOMS: *You're reading too much into things again.*
                Du hörst wieder das Gras wachsen.
                Du hüerst wedder dat Gras wassen.

                *We should first let the dust settle on that.*
                Darüber sollten wir erst Gras wachsen lassen.
                Dor will'n wi man ierst dat Gras oewer wassen laten.

                *The soldiers had no desire to bite the dust.*
                Die Soldaten hatte keine Lust, ins Gras zu beißen.
                De Soldaaten harden kein Lust nich, in 't Gras tau bieten.


*So, nu heff ick de Wisch afmeiht (meiht).
*So, nun habe ich die Wiese gemäht.*

*Best Gräuten.
Hanne*
***
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 01:16:28 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:16:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JAN.2012.171628.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

Beste Hanne en annere Leeglanners,

Thanks for clarifying the "grass"-situation in Low Saxon, with regards to
metathesis.

The following link explains the metathesis-situation in Dutch and German
pretty well:

Ausgewählte Schriften zur niederländischen und deutschen Sprach- und ... -
Jan Goossens - Google
Boeken<http://books.google.be/books?id=Pu5nS6IfcVsC&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=metathese+gras+gers&source=bl&ots=149JDCZjWz&sig=1w3YZ34Io8nWl3Qj4qxlSIAYjbw&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=2nYLT-bNIIOD-waGx7yjBw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=metathese%20gras%20gers&f=false>

Apparently there has historically been a South-Western metathesis center,
radiating the promotion of this feature. Consequently numerous isoglosses
hit the language divide between Germanic and Romance. From West to East
(say from Dunkirk to Switzerland), one comes across the following pairs:


   - stroot - strosse (Kehle)
   - terden - treten
   - sport - sprosse
   - gers - gras
   - bord - brett
   - vors - frosch
   - borst - brust
   - kerstmis - christmess
   - bernen - brennen
   - dertien - dreizehn
   - dertig - dreissig
   - derde - dritte
   - dorsen - dreschen
   - vers - frisch
   - borst - brust (again)
   - gort - grütze
   - pers(en) - presse(n)
   - kers - kresse
   - korst - kruste
   - born - brunn
   - barsten - bresten


At first glance, it seems that Frisian (eg. "gers") rather joins the
South-West than Lower Saxony where methathesis doesn't seem to be very
productive. English is more of a mixed bag, having "board", "burn",
"third", "thirteen" and "thirty" on the one hand, but "christmas",
"breast", "thresh", "fresh" and "press" on the other. In Old English both
"græs" and "gærs" were acceptable, just like Middle Dutch seemed to be
hesitating between "gras", "gars" and "gers".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Luc!

The following cases amongst the above can definitely be found in Low Saxon
of Germany:

   - *bord* - *brett *(*Boord ~ Bredd*) 'board', 'plank'
   - *borst *- brust (*Borst ~ Bost*) 'breast'
   - *dertien *- dreizehn (*derteihn ~ dörteihn ~ dartein ~ dorteihn
*~*dotteihn ~ dötteihn
   *) 'thirteen'
   - *dertig *- *dreissig *(*dörtig ~ dortig **~ dottig** ~ dartig ~ drottig
   *) 'thirty'
   - derde - *dritte *(*dridde *~ *drüdde*)
   - *dorsen *- dreschen (*dörsen ~ d**össen*) 'to tresh'
   - *gort *- *grütze *(*Grütt ~ Gr**ött ~ G**ört ~ Gort*) 'grits', 'gruel'
   - kers - *kresse *(*Kress ~ Kassen*) 'cress'
   - *korst *- kruste (*Körst ~ K**öss*) 'crust'
   - *born *- brunn (*Born*) 'spring', 'source' (cf. "bourne", Scots *burn*)
   - *barsten *- bresten (*barsten ~ basten ~ bassen*) 'to burst'

As for Dutch dialects, does *kerst...* for "Christ ..." only occur in
compounds or also by itself?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 01:26:26 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:26:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Current events" 2012.01.09 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JAN.2012.172626.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Current events

Mijn beste wensen aan alle mensen in de door overstromingen
getroffenen gebieden
van de Nederlandse provincie Groningen! Sterkte!

My best wishes to all people in the flood-stricken areas of the Netherlands
province of Groningen! Good luck!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 18:57:28 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:57:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.10 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JAN.2012.105728.0800.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (03) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

I have been following this thread with great interest because it is a
particular interest of mine.
I would like to
emphasise one thing which tends to get lost in a written discussion -
which is that metathesis is originally an  audio/verbal activity. It is
so easy to look at written examples and just take the juxtaposition of
letters for granted - or even accept it as a pretty easily
understandable phenomenon.

However if you read the examples out loud and listen to the amazing
difference in sound that metathesis requires, you begin to ask yourself
just what is it in the brain and the auditory processes that allows
this to happen?

When talking about it with teachers I refer to the amazing " audio-
gymnastics" that the brain has to do in order to create 'ors' out of
'ros'. One has to imagine oneself illiterate to get the real force of
this ability (?) linguistic characteristic? error in processing (?) ...
what is going on and how would one best describe it.

That it continues to this day is clear when

a) listening to children learning to speak; my grand-daughter has come
up with some super examples; I shall have to start writing them down

b)locals in Northamptonshire still refer to Althorpe ( Earl Spencer's
place' ) as 'Altrup' whereas I am unaware of any of the Yorkshire /
North England's .... thorpes being treated like this..... though I
would love to hear some examples if it does happen.

We did discuss this years ago I remember and at the risk of repeating
something from the archives: I suggested then that there may well be a
link between methathesis and dyslexia - at least some forms of the
latter, as I am convinced that many conditions are brought together
under that same title ( for example: those people who benefit from
coloured reading glasses to bring 'dancing letters' or 'curved pages'
under control.)

best wishes

Heather
Worcester UK

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (03) [EN)

Meine Antwort auf:
From: R. F. Hahn
Subject: Phonology

Hallo Ron un ok all' Lowlanners,

ick sett noch wat hentau:

*. Brett *Pl. Bräd', Bröder, selt. Bräders, Mnd. *bret n.
**. Brust *Bost, ält. Borst, Pl. Böst, Mnd. *borst
**. dreizehn *dörteihn, drütteihn, Mnd. *dörtein
**. dreißig *dörtig, drüttig, drittig, druchtich
*. dreißigste  *dörtigst
*. dritte *drüdd', drürr, drütt, drürrt, dörde, Mnd. *dörde, drüdde
**. dreschen *döschen, alt. dörschen, trituare 'dorschen', Mnd. *dörschen
. **Grütze** *Grütt, selten görke, ghorte, Mnd. *görke, grütte*
*. Kresse *Kreß,  Karse, Kerse, Kersse, Karß,* *Mnd. *kerse
**. Kruste *Köst, Rinde bes. des Brotes, *'ene korste brodes', *Mnd. *korste
*aus lat. *erusta*
*. geboren *buren, boren, baren *vom mnd. beren: gebären
**. bersten, platzen *barsten, basten, ält. barsten, busten, bassen:
birschen (jagen), Mnd. *
    bersten, barsten

*Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Best Gräuten.
Hanne
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 19:01:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:01:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.109 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JAN.2012.110119.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [DE-NDS]

In Dutch we have a few expressions with "gras":
"ik kan het gras horen groeien" I can hear the grass growing = it's very
silent
"er geen gras over laten groeien" don't let the grass grow over it = you
start right away with something
"luisteren naar groeien van het gras" listen to the grass growing = to be
very lazy
"iemand het gras voor de voeten wegmaaien" to mow away the grass in front
of someones feet = to give someone no opportunity
"er schuilt een addertje onder het gras" there's a viper hiding under the
grass = there's a hidden, secret problem
"er groeit nou gras op zijn buik" grass is growing on his belly now = he's
dead and buried now
"het gras is altijd groener bij de buren / buurmans gras is altijd groener
" the neighnours' grass is always greener
"het gras is altijd groener aan de andere kant van de heuvel" the grass is
always greener at the other side of the hill
=it always seems if it's better somewhere else, that they have less
troubles somewhere else

A Low Saxon one (from the Netherlands):
"ik vraog ow toch ok neet, of ene koo grös vret?" I won't ask you either,
whether a cow eats grass? = I 'won't ask you for something obvious either?

Ingmar

From: Hannelore Hinz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.08 (01) [EN-NDS]

Hallo Luc un all' Lowlanners,

You wrote:

       How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?

       Wie spricht man "Gras" in Niederdeutsch?
       Woans snackt man "Gras" up Plattdüütsch?

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
Gras, ä. Gres n.,
Sammelbezeichnung der Weide und Wiesenpflanzen.
Sprachliche Belege im eig. Sinne: gramen 'Graß'.
Grashalm: Spier, Grasspier Pl.: Spieren

Hochdeutsch sprechen wir Gras [gra:s],
Up Plattdüütsch seggen wi ok Gras oewer so [gras], dat  s as  ß odder ss
snacken.

Im bildl. Gebrauch ist der Graswuchs ein Zeichen für unbetretenen Boden,
daher die
sprw. Aussage von einem vielbegangenen Wege: up 'n Weg, wo väl gahn, waßt
kein Gras;
auf schwere Schläge: wo de henlangt, waßt in sœben Johr keen Gras.

FN (Flurnamen): Grasbrauk, -hoff, -holm, -koppel, -kraug, -kul, -lock,
-muur, -uut, -weg, -wisch.
Mnd. gras, gres n.

Keep off the grass! Betreten des Rasens verboten

IDIOMS: You're reading too much into things again.
               Du hörst wieder das Gras wachsen.
               Du hüerst wedder dat Gras wassen.

               We should first let the dust settle on that.
               Darüber sollten wir erst Gras wachsen lassen.
               Dor will'n wi man ierst dat Gras oewer wassen laten.

               The soldiers had no desire to bite the dust.
               Die Soldaten hatte keine Lust, ins Gras zu beißen.
               De Soldaaten harden kein Lust nich, in 't Gras tau bieten.

So, nu heff ick de Wisch afmeiht (meiht).
So, nun habe ich die Wiese gemäht.

Best Gräuten.
Hanne
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 19:04:13 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:04:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.10 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JAN.2012.110413.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [DE-NDS]

In Dutch we have a few expressions with "gras":
"ik kan het gras horen groeien" I can hear the grass growing = it's very
silent
"er geen gras over laten groeien" don't let the grass grow over it = you
start right away with something
"luisteren naar groeien van het gras" listen to the grass growing = to be
very lazy
"iemand het gras voor de voeten wegmaaien" to mow away the grass in front
of someones feet = to give someone no opportunity
"er schuilt een addertje onder het gras" there's a viper hiding under the
grass = there's a hidden, secret problem
"er groeit nou gras op zijn buik" grass is growing on his belly now = he's
dead and buried now
"het gras is altijd groener bij de buren / buurmans gras is altijd groener
" the neighnours' grass is always greener
"het gras is altijd groener aan de andere kant van de heuvel" the grass is
always greener at the other side of the hill
=it always seems if it's better somewhere else, that they have less
troubles somewhere else

A Low Saxon one (from the Netherlands):
"ik vraog ow toch ok neet, of ene koo grös vret?" I won't ask you either,
whether a cow eats grass? = I 'won't ask you for something obvious either?

Ingmar

From: Hannelore Hinz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.08 (01) [EN-NDS]

Hallo Luc un all' Lowlanners,

You wrote:

       How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?

       Wie spricht man "Gras" in Niederdeutsch?
       Woans snackt man "Gras" up Plattdüütsch?

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
Gras, ä. Gres n.,
Sammelbezeichnung der Weide und Wiesenpflanzen.
Sprachliche Belege im eig. Sinne: gramen 'Graß'.
Grashalm: Spier, Grasspier Pl.: Spieren

Hochdeutsch sprechen wir Gras [gra:s],
Up Plattdüütsch seggen wi ok Gras oewer so [gras], dat  s as  ß odder ss
snacken.

Im bildl. Gebrauch ist der Graswuchs ein Zeichen für unbetretenen Boden,
daher die
sprw. Aussage von einem vielbegangenen Wege: up 'n Weg, wo väl gahn, waßt
kein Gras;
auf schwere Schläge: wo de henlangt, waßt in sœben Johr keen Gras.

FN (Flurnamen): Grasbrauk, -hoff, -holm, -koppel, -kraug, -kul, -lock,
-muur, -uut, -weg, -wisch.
Mnd. gras, gres n.

Keep off the grass! Betreten des Rasens verboten

IDIOMS: You're reading too much into things again.
               Du hörst wieder das Gras wachsen.
               Du hüerst wedder dat Gras wassen.

               We should first let the dust settle on that.
               Darüber sollten wir erst Gras wachsen lassen.
               Dor will'n wi man ierst dat Gras oewer wassen laten.

               The soldiers had no desire to bite the dust.
               Die Soldaten hatte keine Lust, ins Gras zu beißen.
               De Soldaaten harden kein Lust nich, in 't Gras tau bieten.

So, nu heff ick de Wisch afmeiht (meiht).
So, nun habe ich die Wiese gemäht.

Best Gräuten.
Hanne
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 11 21:05:12 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:05:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2012.130512.0800.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.109 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]

Funny, dear Ingmar, I have slightly different notions of what some of these
expressions mean. You write:

"ik kan het gras horen groeien" I can hear the grass growing = it's very
silent
"luisteren naar groeien van het gras" listen to the grass growing = to be
very lazy


Now what I learnt is: If you say "Er hört das Gras wachsen" or "Er kann das
Gras wachsen hören" then you mean "He is very attentive, he can perceive
what is practically inaudible/invisible, he knows in advance what nobody
else would have known" -- maybe even "He has second sight". *Sometimes*, if
said with a derisive undertone, you mean "he sees what is not there, he
fantasizes".

You write:
"ik vraog ow toch ok neet, of ene koo grös vret?" I won't ask you either,
whether a cow eats grass? = I 'won't ask you for something obvious either?

In this case you say "Ist der Papst katholisch?" This is a relatively new
idiom, I didn't hear ist in my childhood, but it seems perfectly logical.
"Möchtest du einen Schoko-Keks?" "Hey, ist der Papst katholisch?!" It is
just a strong form of "Yes".

Hartlich!

Marlou

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [DE-NDS]

In Dutch we have a few expressions with "gras":
"ik kan het gras horen groeien" I can hear the grass growing = it's very
silent
"er geen gras over laten groeien" don't let the grass grow over it = you
start right away with something
"luisteren naar groeien van het gras" listen to the grass growing = to be
very lazy
"iemand het gras voor de voeten wegmaaien" to mow away the grass in front
of someones feet = to give someone no opportunity
"er schuilt een addertje onder het gras" there's a viper hiding under the
grass = there's a hidden, secret problem
"er groeit nou gras op zijn buik" grass is growing on his belly now = he's
dead and buried now
"het gras is altijd groener bij de buren / buurmans gras is altijd groener
" the neighnours' grass is always greener
"het gras is altijd groener aan de andere kant van de heuvel" the grass is
always greener at the other side of the hill
=it always seems if it's better somewhere else, that they have less
troubles somewhere else

A Low Saxon one (from the Netherlands):
"ik vraog ow toch ok neet, of ene koo grös vret?" I won't ask you either,
whether a cow eats grass? = I 'won't ask you for something obvious either?
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 12 00:21:28 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:21:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2012.162128.0800.>

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From: Brooks, Mark mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]

Marlou wrote: "Hey, ist der Papst katholisch?!" It is just a strong form of
"Yes".



I’ve heard that expression in English most all my life. I’m 61 now and live
in Texas. So, perhaps German borrowed it from English. We have another one
that more “rustic.” It happens in the same context as the Pope question:
“Does a bear shit in the woods?”



I’ve also heard a wag mix them, so that he replaces the bear with the Pope
;-). Pretty irreverent, but not unexpected from a primarily Protestant part
of the country (I grew up in Dallas).



About grass: We also have the grass being greener on the other side of the
fence. Another one that is probably more recent is: “Your ass is grass, and
I’m the lawn mower.” Strangely, in everyday speech it has become shortened
to “Your ass is grass” without the second part. So, if you’d never heard it
before, you’d be completely lost.



Regards,
Mark Brooks
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 12 19:03:14 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:03:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
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From: "Fonken, Gael M. [foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu]"
 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" or something else like it?

From: Brooks, Mark mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]


 Marlou wrote: "Hey, ist der Papst katholisch?!" It is just a strong form
of "Yes".



We have another one that more *“rustic.”* It happens in the same context as
the Pope question: “Does a bear shit in the woods?”

I’ve also heard a wag mix them, so that he replaces the bear with the Pope
;-). Pretty irreverent, but not unexpected from a primarily Protestant part
of the country (I grew up in Dallas).



Hi Mark and all,

   Your comments on Papal protocol in rural areas reminds me of a previous
pope who came from a more rustic background than our current one. One’s
abilities and sense-abilities seem linked to our local culture often.  My
question for you all is if there is a difference between the more visible
terms *“rustic”* and *“boorish”* and this new word I learned from
YouTube *“dörp”
* which is a form of reggae supposedly arriving in London from Afrikaans
roots. I found it frustrating even to google *dörp* because it
automatically gets rerouted to ‘*drop’* reggae which is something very
different…



    Tons of fun tracing down all the shifts in meaning here.  It seems that
*dörp reggae* was originally intended to invert the meaning of *dörp *(and
Afrikaans itself) from this older rustic (drill to kill) base to a more
capable, critical, and ethically responsible image of self.  *But what
means dörp to you*? Could someone translate or otherwise convey the meaning
that Ina Muller gives it… She’s a Platt speaker… curious lady.

   … So then as lowlanders, maybe we should ask “*Is the pope **dörp*?”



   - *3:30*  *Ina Müller - Dörp Reggae *by elli29086428,423 views
   <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7921WiLVBM&feature=related>

·         *Ina Muller - Dorp Reggae
Lyrics<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dorp%20reggae&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweetslyrics.com%2F777611.Ina%2520Muller%2520-%2520Dorp%2520Reggae.html&ei=pe7XToeeEouGsgKi-sT8DQ&usg=AFQjCNHqGLr25w-tV4KkJs4BbK0dMFbwdQ>
** *www.sweetslyrics.com › Artists starting with
I<http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.sweetslyrics.com/I.html&rct=j&sa=X&ei=pe7XToeeEouGsgKi-sT8DQ&ved=0CFIQ6QUoADAC&q=dorp+reggae&usg=AFQjCNGrNN-aQjAtYKJTfBEjcwUTcjsvJA>-30.
Juni 2010 – Download Ina Muller (Original: Lemon Tree)Musik:

·         Het *dorp* instrumental karaoke - Dana
Winner<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dorp%20music&source=web&cd=41&ved=0CB8QFjAAOCg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.karaoke-version.com%2Fmp3-backingtrack%2Fdana-winner%2Fhet-dorp.html&ei=8u3XTvijOOyAsgLKrIDcDQ&usg=AFQjCNEI49EYELJfcNd-mI9NLXV-Rvsr2Q>

·         *Dorp* (band) - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorp_%28band%29>
—this is the Afrikaans band



Happy trails,

Gael



*Rustic:*

>From *rūs <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rus#Latin>** *(“the country”).

Latin:* rūsticus* *m.* (*feminine*
*rūstica<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rustica>
*, *neuter* *rūsticum <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rusticum>*);
*first<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_first_declension>
/second declension<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_second_declension>
*

   1. of the country <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/country>,
rural<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rural>,
   rustic <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rustic> [quotations ▼]
   2.  (*figuratively <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/figuratively>*)
   unrefined <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unrefined>,
*boorish<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boorish>,
   *coarse <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coarse> [quotations ▼]
   3.  (*substantive*) a farmer <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/farmer>,
   peasant <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/peasant>,
*rustic<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rustic>
   * [quotations ▼]
   4.  (*substantive*,* figuratively<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/figuratively>
   *) a *boor <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boor>*

*boor <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boor> [EN] *From Dutch*
**boer<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boer#Dutch>
* (“peasant”).

   1. A peasant <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/peasant>.
   2. A Boer <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Boer>, white South
African<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/South_African>of
   Dutch <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dutch> or
Huguenot<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Huguenot>descent
   3. A yokel <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yokel>, country bumpkin,
   4. An uncultured <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/uncultured> person



But why is this different in *German* & *Dutch*?  I’m thinking you all have
already tackled this question… but
*Boor** **–1. **a drill <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/drill>*  From
Germanic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages>, cognate with
German bohren <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bohren#German> (“*to drill*”)
* *
----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: LL "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]

Ja, Marlou un all' Frünn'n,

dat kümmt ümmer up an, woans de Snack seggt ward. Ein vörher Ahnen, wat so
uptau kümmt... usw..

Nu heff ick noch poor Rädensorten oewer Gras.

Ein rühriger Mensch:  *lett sick kein Gras wassen unner de Bein;
*die Schwätzerin, die von Haus zu Haus läuft: *lett kein Gras uppe Stein
wassen.

*Eine ungewöhnliche Gehörschärfe wird übertreibend als die Fähigkeit, Gras
wachsen zu hören, bezeichnet, diese Rda. wird in der Mda. auf eingebildete
und zur Schau getragene Schlauheit bezogen: *dei kann Grass wassen
hüren *allgem.:
'he leth sick so klockwyß důncken . . ., alse wen he konde Graßwassen
ho(o)ren, edder ene Flege konde ho(o)ren  an der Want hoesten unde
prusten'; verneint: *ick hür *(hörte) *keen Gras wassen *lief schnell fort;
 vom Tode auf dem Schlachtfelde zeugt das Bild *int Gras biten, *'ynt graß
byten mo(o)ten'; als Sinnbild der Vergänglichkeit: *he *(ein Kranker) *is
vergahn as Gras an 'n Tun.

*Im Tanzlied: *As ick hier vör dissen was, Da wir hier nicks as Lof un Gras.

*Im Ausruf an den Kuckuck: *Kukuk, sett di in dat gräune Gras, Tell min
Tietsläben af.

*Bauernregeln: *dat Gras, wat dat Schap an 'n iersten April hett, sall de
Kauh an 'n iersten Maidag hebben; wenn't Maidag rägent, höllt de Koppel
kein Gras.

*Grasland, Weide, Weidegerechtigkeit, so häufig bei Grundstückverleihungen:
'unum spacium graminum dictum graz' (Ro 1363).
..*tau Gras leggen *zu Weideland machen.

*grasaalig *unreif: *he kümmt mi 'n bäten grasaalig vör; Grashääkt  *kleiner
Hecht; *Grasap *m. Grünschnabel, *Grasbänk *Grabhügel. Grasbick/Gräsbick m.
das Gössel im Rätsel.

Grasblaum f. eine Nelkenart 'Graßblomen, Negelken'. Grasbodden m. mit Gras
bewachsener Erdboden.
Grasbuck m. Spottname für den Gärtner; Grasbuk m. kleiner Bauch; Grasdüker
m. das Gössel im Rätsel; *utseihn as 'n jungen Grasdüwel* verwildert,
mitgenommen; auch von einem Kind, das sich beim Spiel beschmutzt hat:* min
oll lütt Grasdüwel; *Knabenbeteuerung:  *ick will Grasdeuwel sin, wenn dat
nich wohr is.

**gräsen, *grasen, Gras fressen, weiden: *ik seh em gräsen*; öft. von
gespenstischen Tieren: *de Kauh sall dor grääst hebben; gräßt du all
wedder? *zum Gras fressenden Hund; *Rägenbagen, lat œwer gahn, Lat Swin un
Käuh nah 'n Gräsen gahn; wenn de Katt graast, gifft 't Rägen*; wenn beim
Kegelspiel ein Pudel geworfen ist, heißt es: *dee löppt hen, will grasen*;
auf die Frage *wo geiht 't *erfolgt die Antwort: *oh, ick heff mi so äben
dörchgraast dörch 'n Winter; grasen *Salat essen. Mnd.* grasen.

**Grasgoorden *m. Obstgarten - *grasgräun : *grasgrün; *grassengräun;
*Rda.: ein Mensch von unbekannter Herkunft *is ut 'n Grashalm wussen, un de
Bull hem em nah 'n Dörp rinbrüllt.

**Grasjung' *m. ein Bursche, der eben schulentlassen ist;  *graskinig
*fruchtbar,
wachstumfördernd: *graskinig Wäder*; *he süht graskinig ut *schlau; *Grasknipus
*Ente im Rätsel; *Graskopp *m. Beiname eines Mannes mit struppigem
Haarwuchs.

*Grasmussen *Pl. Schelmenstücke: *hei hett Grasmussen in 'n Kopp, Grapps-,
Grippsmussen.

**Grasös' *f. die um den Bindebaum geschlagene Schlinge *Bäs'bomschört*.

*grassaten *gahn, die Gassen müßig  auf- und abgehen; studentenspr. aus
lat. *grassari* rüstig daherschreiten.

*Grasseiß f. *Grassense.
*grassengräun *grasgrün.
*grassig *saftig grün.
*Gräsung *Graswuchs
*graswassen *Adj. fruchtbar: *graswassen Wäder; **
Graswraus'*, -wrausen, -wros',  -wrosen f. m. ausgestochenes Rasenstück,
erhöhtes Rasenstück; *sett'te . . . sick up en Graswrausen*.
Lit.: Perfesser Voßlo

Poor Snacks (Aphorismen), Übertrag. ND. Hanne:
Leute, die das Gras wachsen hören, haben es meistens auch gesät. *Peter
Frankenfeld*
*Lüüd, de dat Gras wassen hüren, hebben 't mihrstens ok said't. (säen :
seien, sei't, seig't, seid't)

*Wer im Sommer das Gras frißt, hat im Winter kein Heu. *Norbert Blüm
Wecker in'n Sommer dat Gras fräten deit, hett in'n Winter kein Heu* *nich.*

Heu machen kann schließlich jeder, wenn der Himmel Gras wachsen läßt. *Karl
Heinrich Waggerl*
*Na(h)gradens Heu maken kann jedwerein, wenn de Häben (Häwen) Gras wassen
lött.*

Oh hah, nu is dat mihr worden, as ick vörher dacht' heff.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 13 04:39:11 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:39:11 -0800
Subject: LL "Lexicon" 2012.01.12 (02) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JAN.2012.203911.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 12 January 2012 - Volume 02
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Btw in Northern dialects of Low Saxon in the Netherlands, words like
"greshupper", "greswupper", "greshupker", "gröswupper (Drenthe province),
"grashupper" , "grashipper" (Groningen province) are known. Obviously the
same word as English "grasshopper",
it means either that insect or a field cricket.

Is this word also known in German Low Saxon or would the Dutch Low Saxon
words be from neighbouring Frisian?
In Frisian we find "hipper" and "gershipper"

Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

The word is used on the German side of the border also, Ingmar:

*Grashüpper ~ Grashupper ~ Grashopper
~ Hauhüpper ~ Heuhüpper
~ Hauspringer ~ Heuspringer*

In German it is *Heuschrecke ~* *Grashüpfer ~ Heuhüpfer*, scientific *
Kurzfühlerschrecke* ~ *Springschrecke*.

In Missingsch and Northern Standard German it tends to be traditionally *
Grashüpfer*, probably owing to Low Saxon strata.

Luxemburgish: *Heesprénger
*Yiddish: גראָזגריל (*grozgril*)
Dutch: *sprinkhaan*
Afrikaans: *sprinkaan**
*Danish: *græshoppe*
Norwegian: *gresshoppe*
Swedish: *gräshoppa*

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 13 04:45:02 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:45:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JAN.2012.204502.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Gael,

An interesting take you're giving us. "'t Dörrep" means the center of town
here (opposed to "den buiten"...the outside). HIstorically this also meant
a very different legal status for those living within the limits of " 't
dörrep " and those beyond. People even had to go to different courts when
they actually committed the same sort of crime. In a way, you were more
free when you had a farm outside the city walls, but when you did something
wrong you had less protection as well.

Regarding grass...ah, grass again ;=). Of course, in connection with
reggae, it's a different sort of grass. To a high extent, I truly think
grass is quintessential for the Lowlands. So far, there is no satisfying
Indo-European etymology for the word, plus the area where it's used is
pretty limited...therefore it's thought to be a loan from a substrate
language. Wouldn't surprise me.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: mike.keach at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Mark (I think) wrote:
" My question for you all is if there is a difference between the more
visible terms “rustic” and “boorish”.

Well, I think Mark was referring to the Dutch Boor. In English, Boorish
refers to a person that is pushy, heavy-handed, p'raps a bully. Rustic is
as he cited: uneducated, hayseed, earthy, et alia.

Boorish is a not-so-often used term these days. 'Twas popular from the 16th
- late 20th centuries. Just guessing that it stems from the singular
attitudes of feral pigs. [Here in Florida we deal with them yearly and they
are nasty and mean. AND: contrary to logic, are NOT good eating.].

Hope I'm not completely off base here. If so: Mea Culpa.

Alles beste, Mitanand!

~Mike [Keach] von Tampadorf
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Oh, ja, liebe Hanne, was wir vergessen haben: "Da wächst kein Gras mehr" =
"This site is totally destroyed" (site can be figuratively too).

Dear Gael, "dörp" means "village" in Platt. It is a noun, I never heard it
used as an adjective like in “*Is the pope **dörp*?”. But english is much
more liberal with using nouns as adjectives, so maybe you have just set a
new trend or a new idiom :-)

As to myself, I am dörp with all my heart!

Hartlich

Marlou

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 13 19:01:39 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:01:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JAN.2012.110139.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh cartyweb at hotmail.com
Subject: Resources

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/modern-trading-killing-off-barrow-boy-market-slang-102444812.html

Heres an interesting article on bond traders slang...

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

From: M.-L. Lessing
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Hallo Marlou un all' Lowlanners,

ick heff in mien Kinnertied mien Ferien ümmer in Dorf Mecklenburg  <große
Burg> (mnd, *mikilinburg) *beläwt. Later as jung' *Butendiern**  bi einen
Grotburen ein Johr deint (deinen müßt); heff Binnen un mihr Buten mien
Arbeid dahn.
Un later (tau DDR-Tieden)* müßten* wi Postler in de Kurn-un Tüffelaust up
'n Lann' bi de LPG-Buren helpen, un Kurn döschen tau Nachten (21:00 -
07:00).
Tau halwen Nacht Mankkaaktäten, un denn wedder rup up de Döschmaschin'
(Dreschmaschine).

*Dörp, *Pl. *Dörper *n. Dorf; zuweilen m.: *den Dörp dal; lang den
Dörp;*neben dem alten Pl.
*dörpe* erscheint schon im Mnd. die Form *dörpere*, so auch im Dat.
'Dörpern' (1545); *up den Dörpern *(Ro. 1742); doch hält sich die *r-*lose
Form bis zur Gegenwart: *up 'n Dörpen *
auf den Dörfern, d.h. auf dem Lande; formal fällt damit ein allgem.
gebräuchlicher Dat. Sg. *Dörpen *zusammen: *up 'n Dörpen *auf dem Dorfe,
auf dem Lande; *beid' ut einen Dörpen; ut 'n anner Dörpen; in 'n ganzen
Dörpen *(F. Reuter); *up unsen Dörpen *(STA.Friedl); die Sg.-Konstruktion *up
'n Dörpen *verdankt die Endung *-en  *dem gleichbedeuten *up 'n Lann' *aus
mnd. *up dem lande, *dessen -*nn'*, d.i. gelängtes *-n *als -*nden *aufgefaßt
wird;  daneben ist allgem. die Kurzform *Dörp *üblich: *ut 'n Dörp *aus dem
Dorfe; *in 'n Dörp *im Dorfe.

*dörpsch *Adj. dörfisch; meist substantiviert: *dei Hauw hadd doch en
Dörpschen kriegen künnt *(ein Einheimischer aus dem Dorfe, kein Fremder); *de
Dörpschen *Leute vom Lande;
*Butendörp*: Außendorf, fremdes Dorf,* de Butendörpsch *der in einem
anderen Dorf Wohnende.
** Butendiern *f. Hofmagd im Gegensatz zum Hausmädchen
Lit.: Perfesser Voßlo

*Dorf: *Das *gemeingerm. *Wort *mhd., ahd.* dorf, *got.* þaurp, *engl. *thorp,
*aisl. *þorp bezeichnet,
abgesehen vom *Got., *wo es "Acker" bedeutete, eine bäuerliche Siedlung,
vielfach auch einen Einzelhof. Verwandte Wörter wie *kymr. *tref
"Wohnung" *lit.
*trobà "Haus" und *lat.* trabs "Balken" machen eine Grundbedeutung
"Balkenbau, Haus" wahrscheinlich, die sich je nach der Siedlungsform
wandeln konnte. - Abl.: *dörfisch *"bäurisch" (im 16. Jh. für *mhd.* *
dörflich* (16. Jh.); *Dörfler *(18. Jh.)
Lit.: DUDEN 7

Hollt jug fuchtig!

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 13 22:33:23 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:33:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (02) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JAN.2012.143323.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Neet allenig  Gotisch "thaurp" had ene andere betekenis as dörp, ok 't
Freesche woord "terp" bedödt wat anders, namelik "een könstmaetige hövel in
't water woar at leu up woanen en bouwen könt".
Nou in disse tied is "terp" in Nederland 't standard-woord veur so een
woanhövel, 't Freesch heff nou "doarp" veur "dörp" uut 't Hollandsch "dorp"
oavernömen.

Not just Gothic "thaurp" had a different meaning from village, also the
frisian word "terp" means something else, i.e.  "an artificial mound that
people can live and farm on".
Nowadays "terp" is the standard Dutch word for such a mound, and Frisian
borrowed "doarp" for "village" from Dutch "dorp"

Ingmar

----------

From: "Fonken, Gael M. [foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu]"
 Subject: LL-L idiomatica

Luc wrote:

“*’Dörrep’* means the *center of town* here (opposed to "den buiten"...the
outside)… I truly think grass is quintessential for the Lowlands.”… and a
bunch of other very nice things.



Marlou wrote:

"*’dörp’* means "village" in Platt.”…and  “english is much more liberal
with using nouns as adjectives, so maybe you have just set a new trend or a
new idiom”…



Mike [Keach] wrote:

“*Boorish* refers to a person that is pushy, heavy-handed, p'raps a bully.
…Boorish is a not-so-often used term these days. 'Twas popular from the
16th - late 20th centuries. Just guessing that it stems from the singular
attitudes of *feral pigs*.”



Beste all of you,

    I’m so grateful for your input. It helps me focus on the link that *
Afrikaans* provides in the movement of new ideas through the Low Saxon
world web… and how YouTube is helping us share more deeply.  It takes a lot
of YouTube viewing to put all these links together, and perhaps more
knowledge of popular music trends than I have.  But I found Ina Muller
there because she cut a video titled Platt es Nicht Uncool. Then I found
this *Dörp Reggae* and traced it to London to *an Afrikaans artist* there
who spoke in an interview how his later videos were meant to invert the
stereotype in South Africa that Afrikaans is a colonizer’s language [linked
with the image of the Boers as *boorish*, violent lackeys of empire].  It
is the great humanitarian efforts of South African musicians that seems
more ‘liberal’ here in terms of how to use the term *dörp.*  Perhaps there
is some general linguistic theory that speaks to how * adjectives* help us
to rethink the dominant meaning of *noun phrases*.  Not sure, but the
official border between them is thin.



  What I learn from my YouTube travels is *how ‘small languages’ link with
each other*… how they can be used to address global violence from an angle
that invites more friendly commentary.  I think this example would also
count in cultural studies as an ‘*antipodal’* link.  But what I do know is
that *my Afrikaans speaking professor* said that *Dörp* meant *a very,
very, very small town*… the smallest there is.  This means to be or think *
Dörp-ly* is an option that arises from the *“grass roots”*… hah.  My family
is from Spellen which is very, very small compared to Dussel*dorf*, which
is also very small compared to Koln.   I get the point that grass grows
freely in these places.



   One more thing… I repeat my request for a quick gloss of * Ina Muller’s
lyrics*. That would really help (me).  This link is to the Platt version
plus a standard Hoch translation, but no English for poor displaced folks
like me.

*Ina Muller - Dorp Reggae
Lyrics<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dorp%20reggae&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweetslyrics.com%2F777611.Ina%2520Muller%2520-%2520Dorp%2520Reggae.html&ei=pe7XToeeEouGsgKi-sT8DQ&usg=AFQjCNHqGLr25w-tV4KkJs4BbK0dMFbwdQ>
** *www.sweetslyrics.com › Juni 2010 – Download Ina Muller (Original: *Lemon
Tree*)Musik:



Who did  *Lemon Tree*? What does it mean for Ina to ‘copy it’?

èhey! I found “*Lemon Tree*” sung by
Любимое<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCDIt50hRDs&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PL41C7BB4675E667D4>
--links to a play list the lemon
tree<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgeKCCyhMm8&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PL3424CB0649CA7421>—25
videos



But I can’t find the original *Afrikaans band* yet…sorry, I’ll keep
looking….



More YouTube links:

There’s also this other ‘white’ reggae band [from another part of
Germany?]–not sure what “isches” means yet … or what the book “das grosse
lixikon” means in this video? è*Etobasi feat.* Elijah - *Sie isches *by
EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>–not sure what
“isches” means yet



Here’s another Ina video: Unsere Besten im Norden - * Ina Müller*: Porträt
(IV)by InaMuellerSupport 9,371 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSv9sEGMX7c&feature=related>--10 minutes
interview

Also, it’s clear Ina kun snack English: *Ina Müller - Dear Mr.
President*(Live bei Radio ...by RadioHamburgOnline 219,628 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaA6-wtw3d0&feature=relmfu>



More later,
Gael
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 14 07:16:59 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 23:16:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JAN.2012.231659.0800.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (02) [EN-NDS]

Dear Gael, I think this can mean "Sie ist es" = "She is it". "Ische" as a
Name is a nickname of "Luise", originating in baby language I think. This
would make no sense here.

Hartlich!

Marlou

Gael wrote:

There’s also this other ‘white’ reggae band [from another part of
Germany?]–not sure what “isches” means yet … or what the book “das grosse
lixikon” means in this video? è*Etobasi feat.* Elijah - *Sie isches *by
EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>–not sure what
“isches” means yet

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Idiomatica

Gael and Marlou,

The language used in that music video appears to be an Allemanic variety
(which is well outside the Lowlands).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_Wikipedia

As Marlou said, *Sie isches* ['ziːʔɪʃəs] (Standard German *Sie ist es*)
means something like "She is *it*", "It's her", etc.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 15 00:24:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 16:24:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2012.01.14 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.14.JAN.2012.162419.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (03) [EN]

Since I don't know how to change subject lines, etc. I'm going to beg the
indulgence of the List. In Marlou's post below, the first one, she mentions
the origin of nicknames in baby talk. I've always thought this but I've
never read a study of name origins that dealt specifically with this issue.
I'm thinking of the Peggy, Meg, etc. type nicknames.
Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
http://ideas.lang-learn.us/barrett.php

From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (02) [EN-NDS]

Dear Gael, I think this can mean "Sie ist es" = "She is it". "Ische" as a
Name is a nickname of "Luise", originating in baby language I think. This
would make no sense here.

Hartlich!

Marlou

Gael wrote:

There’s also this other ‘white’ reggae band [from another part of
Germany?]–not sure what “isches” means yet … or what the book “das grosse
lixikon” means in this video? è*Etobasi feat.* Elijah - *Sie isches *by
EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>–not sure what
“isches” means yet

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L  "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (03) [EN]

Best' Marlou un Lowlanners,

*Lis' *f. Elise, Luise; Dim.: 'dat Ließken'. Fritz Reuter (Ut mine
Stromtid) näumte Luise *Lischen.
*So hett de Nam' *Lischen *(Lis'chen) mihr Warmnis. Ick holl dat nich för
ein' 'Spitznamen'
(nickname).
De Nam' Lischen is noch hüt  begäng'.
De Nam Ilse ward hier männigmal "Ische" näumt.

Hartlich.

*Hannchen

----------

*
From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (03) [EN]

Dit is mi noch tau rechten Tied infollen...

*Lowiesch *und Abwandlungen f. Luise: *Lowis', Luiesch*; von schlecht
gebundener Garbe: *dat is Lowiesch ehr Meisterstück.

**Wieschen *Koseform von Luise, *Wising.* Bi de Post in'n Springersaal
(Telegrafie mit Springschreiber simplex un douplex) hebben wi Luise
G." *Wieschen"
*näumt; sei wier 'ne 'vörnähm Fru' un  taugliek 'n Kumpel' un wull giern so
näumt warden.

*Wising  *Koseform von Luise: *Wising, Lowischen, Wischen

*Lit.: Perfesser Voßlo un ok ut mien eigen Sammelbauk.

Hann*ing*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 15 08:36:27 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 00:36:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2012.01.14 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JAN.2012.003627.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

I wrote:

The word is used on the German side of the border also, Ingmar:

*Grashüpper ~ Grashupper ~ Grashopper*
* ~ Hauhüpper ~ Heuhüpper*
*~ Hauspringer ~ Heuspringer*

In German it is *Heuschrecke ~* *Grashüpfer ~ Heuhüpfer*, scientific *
Kurzfühlerschrecke* ~ *Springschrecke*.

In Missingsch and Northern Standard German it tends to be traditionally *
Grashüpfer*, probably owing to Low Saxon strata.

Luxemburgish: *Heesprénger*
Yiddish: גראָזגריל (*grozgril*)
Dutch: *sprinkhaan*
Afrikaans: *sprinkaan*
* *Danish: *græshoppe*
Norwegian: *gresshoppe*
Swedish: *gräshoppa*
*
*Scots has *gress *and *girse *for "grass", *gresslowper* and
*girselowper*for "grasshopper".

*Lowper* (cf. English "leaper") means "jumper" (cf. .*..springer* in some
languages' words for "grasshopper")

By the way, please note the peculiar Irish name for "grasshopper": *dreoilín
teaspaigh* (literally "hot weather wren")! This corresponds to *dreòlan
teasbhuidh* in Scottish Gaelic.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 15 20:00:01 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:00:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2012.01.15 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JAN.2012.120001.0800.>

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From: Daniel Prohaska ‹daniel at ryan-prohaska.com›
Subject: Lexicon

In Cornish "we" have *grugen* [ˈgrʏgən] ~ [ˈgɹɪgɐn] or alternatively *culyek
reden* [ˌkʏljək ˈrɛdən] ~ [ˌkɪljɐk ˈɹɛdɐn] "fern cock".
Dan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Dan!

Cornish *culyek reden* is consistent with Welsh *ceiliog rhedyn* and with
Breton *kilhog-raden*. So it may go way back to early Brythonic.

I wonder if the Cornish and Welsh words made it into Cornish and Welsh
English, either directly or as calques (loan translations).

The notion of "cock" is interesting, considering also that it is used in
Low Frankish words for "grasshopper" (e.g. *sprinkhaan*).

Note the wealth of Old English words for the same: *broc ~ gærshoppa ~
gærshoppe ~ stapa ~ gærsstapa ~ wealdstapa ~ loppestre ~ læpust ~
sėcgescieru*.

This is surpassed by Old German (mostly using words for "hay"): *hewigrimmila
~ hewiskrekko ~ hewispranga ~ stapfo ~ stapfol ~ hewistafil ~ hewistapfo ~
hewistapfol ~ houwistapfol ~ hewiskrek ~ hewiskrekkil ~ houwiskrekkil ~
houwiskrekko ~ houwispranga ~ kefur ~ kefura ~ kefuro ~ matoskrek ~ sprinko*
.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
in snowy Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Lexicon

Un ick antwuurt ok ...

*Heuschrecke* *Grashüpper *m., Pl. *Grashüppers Syn Wrattenbieter *m. *Spez
*grüne Heuschrecke *Heuhüpper* m.
Lit.: Neues hochdeutsch-plattdeutsches Wörterbuch R. Herrmann-Winter

*Grashüpfer, *m., Hüpper/Grashüpper/ -hupper/ -hopper/ Heuhüpper,  Hau-/
Heuspringer pl. -s; auch *Grille
*Lit.: Hd Pd Wörterbuch Günter Harte . Johanna Harte

*Grashüpper *m. Grashüpfer, Feldgrille: *Grashüpper *Heuschrecke Syn. *
Heuhüpper

**Heuhüpper *m. grüne Heuschrecke, Feldgrille, gilt für das Hauptgebiet; im
Westen überwiegt *Heuspringer, *vereinzelt Kreis Schönberg, Kreis Wismar,
Kreis Schwerin, Kreis Hagenow, Ludwigslust begegnet *Grashüpper.
*Kinder, die sich mit einem scharfen Gegenstand geschnitten hatten, griffen
sich im Sommer einen *Heuspringer*, hielten ihn über die Wunde bis er
ausgespruckt hatte und riefen: *Heuhüpper, bring mi Öl, Öl bring mi,
Heuhüpper; *sie setzten sich das Tierchen auch auf die Hand und
sagten: *Heuhüpper,
Heuhüpper, giff mi Kraft, Süs rit ick dinen lütten Köpping af.

**Heuspringer*, ä. -sprink, Pl. -*en *m. wie -*hüpper*: locusta 'ein
Houwsprincke', 'Howsprincken'; *Hoowsprincken, Heuspringers; Heuspringer *
gryllus.
In der Wundbehandlung wie *-hüpper *mit den Anrufen: *Heuspringer, giff mi
Zapp, Dat dat Lock wedder bäter ward; *gegen Warzen: *Heuspringer, giff mi
Sapp, Bit mi ok min Wratten af*; Fieber kann man auf eine kleine
Heuschrecke übertragen, die in ein Stück Papier mit einer Formel gewickelt
um den Hals getragen wird; übertr. auf übermütigen Menschen: 'welcke
lustsůke de eigenkooppische Hoowsprincken vor neine Sůnde rekenen';
munteres Kleinkind: *lütt Heuspringer*; ein Pferd vor Übermut hoch springt.
Syn. und Verbreitung s. *Heuhüpper. *Mnd. *hoisprinke *m.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

*Oh wie schön ist es im Heu,
lieblich ist der Duft,
und die Lerche singt dabei,
hoch aus blauer Luft.

*Autor: H. Löns ?
*
*Hier is idel Sünnschien.
*
*Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 16 00:18:58 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:18:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2012.01.15 (02) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JAN.2012.161858.0800.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2012.01.15 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]


Dear all, I asked a friend from Südoldenburg how a Grasshopper was called
in Südollnborger Platt, and this is what he says:

 Huppstaopel of Kunstaopel of Staopelken;
staopeln: s. stappen = stapfen
hupp: s. huppen of hüpken = hüpfen

Hartlich!

Marlou

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 16 06:28:42 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:28:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.15 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JAN.2012.222842.0800.>

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From: "Fonken, Gael M. [foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu]"
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Marlou wrote:

Dear Gael, I think this can mean "Sie ist es" = "She is it". "Ische" as a
Name is a nickname of "Luise", originating in baby language I think. This
would make no sense here.



Ron wrote:

The language used in that music video appears to be an Allemanic variety
(which is well outside the Lowlands).

 My original question: è*Elijah *- *Sie isch-----es** *by
EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>–not sure what
“isches” means.



Beste LL folks,

    It seems the answer was in the video [@30 seconds where two street
signs converge]: *“Sie isch es” oder  “Sie”  [she’s it….or…. she]* which
seems to reflect opposite choices of *how* best to live….(*who* best to
live with)? I like the video because of it leads to scenes that include
their children … so the choice of one’s sexual partner is grounded in
family life and with open respectful relations with people of other races.
On the whole it is a positive message.  That other *“**dorp**”* South
African band in London had no such grounding and reflects a lot of anger.
I’m curious here how *YouTube* gives space for both types of music and how
both are responses made by language minorities where local identities are
focused on. Yes Ron, this Euro-reggae is not from the lowlands. In the
*Interview
*Hype TV, Jamaica with Elijah
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krTzP_2EDUQ&feature=related>-- at the 4thminute,
he says he is half *Italian* and half *Schwyzerdüütsch*.  It’s this
linguistically mixed heritage that attracts him to Reggae.



    But it is *Ina Muller* who uses the term *dörp* to describe this
dynamic *in locally-meaningful terms*.  She is able to combine this
positive *mixed-race reggae theme* with the darker London smalltown *‘dorp’
politics* to produce a distinctively upbeat *progressive* AND yet still *
morally-grounded* vision for society. She also seems to be actively living
this vision in a more consistent way. Perhaps as reflected in the 1st video
here: YouTube Mix for Ina
Müller<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcCIepoC8Gk&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=AVGxdCwVVULXdG5J7zydA-YlsIw-4KhAaU>
.  Her linguistically-sophisticated politics is also reflected in her
more *mature
audiences* (older people gathered in more upscale places) as well as her
official *interviews of other people* from the lowlands, Frisians, etc… For
her to post a video called “*Platt is nich uncool
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtVxMxfvozo&feature=BFa&list=AVGxdCwVVULXdG5J7zydA-YlsIw-4KhAaU&lf=list_related>
*” is quite significant… But who I am to say this when I can’t understand
what she is saying in these videos?  I have returned to studying German
after my Platt grandfather closed down when I tried to use it to speak with
him over 20 years ago.



   For now though, can someone give me a few more clues?  Is the
word/concept of *dörp* related to a certain capability among *lowlanders to
mix together more ‘harmoniously.*’ There certainly seems to be less tension
here than with Afrikaans music arising from South Africa. What gets
depicted in Elijah’s schweiz reggae also seems to emerge from a more
abstract *(big city)* base. There seems to be more opportunity in the
lowlands to get reconnected with the land…Is that it? — that
*dörp**ishen*are more likely to mix with other
* dörp**ishen* and *to notice and honor the indigenous base underneath
without idealizing it*.



Is this so?

What else do I need to think about?

Gael



Links and listener comments for three ‘minority language’ bands:

*Schwizer Reggae vom feinste *

*Etobasi feat.* *Elijah** *- *Sie isch es *by EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>–the words *Sie
isch es* are in the video!! on the street sign

*More of his songs **è**ELIJAH - SIE ISCH WÄG by shigimigi 418,253 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxmzSAgG-W4&feature=related>*

*                                     **è**DO GOOD IN LIFE - ELIJAH
(OFFICIAL VIDEO)by elijahch 29,897 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3ri5LhmRRo&feature=related>*-in Jamaican
English

*Elijah* *Interview *Hype TV, Jamaica  by elijahch 1,134 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krTzP_2EDUQ&feature=related>--Jun, 2011–very
nice discussion of *his mixed language heritage*

“*Schweiz*.... - meine erste Liebe! Yeees!!!

I swear the god ich hatte wundervolle Urlaube in den Bergen :)” HippeldieHop
<http://www.youtube.com/user/HippeldieHop>1 year ago

“dash doch sonen riddim vomne acoustic track woni vode wailers ghört
ha(odr erri mi:S),

be sho die ganz am sueche , weissen echt öppe. thx :D  detroitchecker
<http://www.youtube.com/user/detroitchecker>1 year ago

„Ich bin Deutscher *und versteh kein**** Wort Oo*“ Blo0dySnowman
<http://www.youtube.com/user/Blo0dySnowman>1 month ago

„Ich studiere deutsch schon seit drei Jahren (und lerne soooooo lange ;) )
und *kann euch kaum verstehen* XD

‚*Schwyzertüütsch*‘ ist aber 'ne schöne Sprache und jetzt will ich sie
lernen :) Und Lied GEIL :D“* *sepus <http://www.youtube.com/user/sepus>years
ago**

„swiss reage FTW!! grues us öschtriich ,i bin ä *verlaufene
schwiizer*“* *laridaridari
<http://www.youtube.com/user/laridaridari>1 year ago

* *

*Another Euro-Reggae group
**è**Phenomden<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGSZbwqqt7I&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PLAFC71E8CEBA0CEA5>
*—17 videos—this seems a bit *more violent*, less cultural?

                                                       and èPhenomden -
Stah Daby reezer82 644,224 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGSZbwqqt7I&feature=related>

„hey *schweiz*.. geile musik :).. find eicha sproch is foi geil :D..

schweiz is hoid afoch des beste nochbalond wos österreich hod.. respekt
aus österreich“* *grafcm <http://www.youtube.com/user/grafcm>2 years ago

„das ist *Bayrisch* und kein *Pseudoschweitzerdeutsch* ;)“ huabamomo
<http://www.youtube.com/user/huabamomo>1 month ago

* *

Links to the Afrikaans *dorp* band in London:

*dorp - interview <http://dorp%20-%20interview/>*
www.rock.co.za/amuzine/interviews/*dorp*_three.html<http://www.rock.co.za/amuzine/interviews/dorp_three.html>
<http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Z0_QMoytBIEJ:www.rock.co.za/amuzine/interviews/dorp_three.html+dorp+pieter+bezuidenhout&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us>


*Sugar:* [with Pieter Bezuidenhout – lead vocalist]

*The name Dorp* creates an impression of *an Afrikaans smalltown
mentality*which, of course, isn't what the band's about.

*Pieter:* Yes, Dorp is really such *a kak name*. I mean, who would call
their band Dorp?

There's this poem we have:

*"Twee koeksusters sit oopmond en staar
               En vra mekaar,
               Hoekom Dorp, dis so 'n kak naam.
               En 'n huur later kon hul steeds
               Nie verstaan,
               Dat 'n woord hoef nie by sy betekenis
               Te blystaan."*

We are trying to create *a negative image* with the name because *people
don't want to be involved* with the implications of the name, but *the joke
is on them* because it *represents us all and reflects on us all*.

*Sugar:* The name hasn't turned people off at all so presumably it's had
the desired effect.

*Pieter:* Exactly. It creates *a negative interest* and that creates a
curiosity. People think this band can't be that dumb to call their band
that!

*Sugar:* *Koos Kombuis** *was one of* **the first artists to alter people's
perceptions of Afrikaans being the language of the oppressor. *

*Pieter:* Well, we don't have any Afrikaans songs but (that trend) has
allowed bands like Valiant Swart and Wonderboom to *use Afrikaans names*.
You also don't have to play the Johnny Clegg type of music that people
expect to come out of South Africa either. It just has to have *a South
African identity*. We do listen to overseas stuff but we don't have to copy
it.

*Sugar:* As a band what do you listen to?

*Pieter:* We're all into ska, funk and punk but we have our own favourites
and from this we have managed to find *our own style*. We do keep an ear on
what's happening out there, so there has been a change from our first album
to our second. You *don't have to copy* but you must *keep up*. There is a
big movement towards *dance music* these days with the raves, so we don't
go for too many ballads. Our music is mostly up-tempo. Our lyrics still
have something to say without being too profound. People can catch on to
lyrics even while they're dancing. When people dance to our music it
creates an energy that feeds back into the band.



Contrasted with the more politically active Afrikaans musician:

*Koos Kombuis** **--*Interviewed in London by saffarazzi 3,105 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxazCrR2bzY&feature=related> Jul 7, 2008

Awesome cool interview with this Legend of SA Rock=[starts at 1:20min]=A brief
history of his career straight from the horse's mouth and a wonderful
glimpse of his persona and hopeful optimism. Enjoyed listening to KK's
views of London and South Africa. Very well done!

Koos Kombuis - *Reconciliation day* by kamikazekonijn 5,831 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDth8roll_4&feature=related>



Interview on Koos Kombuis - *Reconciliation Day* - South Africa by Rouvanne
19,083 views <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4767zdCgdq0&feature=related>--
It is utter blasphemy that the ANC took Geloftedag, which is a sacred holy
day for the Boervolk, and was acknowledged as such by the NP government,
and turned it into this BS "reconciliation day". That's like going to
Israel and making Passover some "reconciliation day" for the Palestinians!
The Marxist ANC is a failure. *therightperspective
<http://www.youtube.com/user/therightperspective>*years ago  èResponse
video: Geloftedag: Day of the Vow by *therightperspective* 2,648 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U-1bgRVMGY&feature=watch_response>

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi, Gael!

In Germany—even in Low Saxon ("Low German"), which nowadays is usesd
primarily in rural settings—German *Dorf* and Low Saxon *Dörp* (a cognate
of English "-thorp" and -thrup") can within certain contexts have a
pejorative meaning. It can connote simple-mindedness and other such
supposed attributes of villagers and small town folks.

*He kümmt vun'n D**örpen *can simply mean "He's from a village/small town,"
or it can mean "He isn't exactly sophisticated."

Similarly, *Dörper* and *Dörpsl**üd'* can simply mean "villager(s)" or
"small town folk," or it can have a similarly derogatory meaning.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 16 17:39:46 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:39:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.16 (01) [NL]
Message-ID: <MON.16.JAN.2012.093946.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Roland Desnerck roland.desnerck at telenet.be
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]

Beste Laaglanders,

Ook Oostende in West-Vlaanderen kent dergelijke uitdrukkingen voor LUI ZIJN:

Hj' is 't gas an 't groene sjhildern
Hij schildert het gras groen.

Hje zét lege zakn réchte.
Hij zet lege zakken recht.

Hje sload hie buuln up 't woater.
Hij slaat builen op het water.

Hj' is 't plafong van den hof an 't witn.
Hij wit de zoldering van de tuin.

Toetnoasteki,

Roland Desnerck
Rogierlaan 25
8400 0ostende

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 16 21:34:15 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:34:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.16 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.16.JAN.2012.133415.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 16 January 2012 - Volume 02
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.15 (03) [EN]

Hi Gael

Towards the end of your last contribution to this strain you say:    For
now though, can someone give me a few more clues?  Is the word/concept of *
dörp* related to a certain capability among *lowlanders to mix together
more ‘harmoniously.*’

I can clearly understand where you are coming from. I am also the
granddaughter in a family that lived in the countryside and spoke ‘Plat’ at
home. (In my case ‘Twents’ – one of the Low Saxon dialects of the Eastern
Netherlands). I did not grow up in that part of the country, but in one of
the large cities of the West. I also experienced the difference between the
two ways of life as almost mutually exclusive. The one in Almelo was
warmer, funkier and ’more together’ than that in Utrecht, which I
considered up-tight.  In the country side people knew each other better and
did not consider each other a threat. There was lots of humor, lots of
laughter. Maybe that comes from living closer to the land. If you are
living in natural surroundings and with nature, it seems that you do not
have to keep a distance from your surroundings and life becomes more
‘whole’ (for lack of a better word). Even now, when I leave the city I
automatically become more happy in my skin.

As for the word “dorps”; It is all in the eyes of the beholder.  You can
look at it from the outside and depending on your attitude use it
derisively; like ‘those simpletons’, or like in my case with longing for
the connection. On the other hand, one can be a teenager, living in the
area, and resent that closeness.  He or she would be looking  forward to
the noise and the frenetic rhythm of the city.



As far as the music goes. I once spent 4 month in Switzerland and I could
recognize the off-beat between living there and in the rest of the world.

So ‘Swiss Regae’ is not a mutually exclusive terminology..

Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 18 01:02:02 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:02:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.17 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2012.170202.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 17 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Utz H.Woltmann uwoltmann at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2012.01.17 [EN]

January 17th is a special day for all the apple trees: In England there is
an old tradition of wassailing the apple trees. The word wassail (waes-hal)
seems to be close related to our NDS wees (ween / wesen, EN = to be) and
heel (EN = well / whole).

http://www.bbc.com/travel/blog/20120113-wassailing-the-old-english-apple-tree

Best regards

Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Utz, folks,

I wonder if there is any connection between the mentioned English wassailing
of apple trees tradition and the Jewish tradition of Tu BiShevat (ט״ו בשבט‎,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_Bishvat).

Tu BiShevat is celebrated on the 15th (ט״ו) day of the Hebrew month of
Shevat (שבט). Depending on the year, this corresponds to various dates of
the Western calendar; last year it was on January 19, and this year it will
be on February 8. So the general timing matches that of the English
tradition.

By-names for this holiday include "New Year of the Trees" and "Birthday of
the Trees". It marks the reawakening of nature (according to the Israeli
climate). Ceremonies include planting and blessing of trees, often with an
emphasis on fruit trees. (Fruit trees are considered almost sacred in
Judaism, and their destruction is prohibited.) Tu BiShevat meals tend to
include dried and pickled fruit as well as almonds and other types of nuts.

Also, it would be interesting to know if the English tradition is a remnant
of a more widely spread European or Eurasian tradition.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 18 01:32:28 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:32:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.17 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2012.173228.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 17 January 2012 - Volume 02
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonolgy

Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by some Scots words with *scl... *in which the /s-/ or the
/-k-/ seem to be intrusive. I wonder if we can make sense of this somehow.

Examples:

   - *Intrusive s?*
   - *sclammer* 'clamber'
      - *sclammer* 'clamor'
      - *sclim* 'climb'


   - *Intrusive k?*
   - *sclice* 'slice' [Medieval French *esclicier*!]
      - *sclidder ~ slidder* 'slither'
      - *sclate ~ slate* 'slate' [Medieval French *esclat*!]
      - *sclender ~ sclinner* 'slender' [Medieval French *esclendre*!]
      - *scly *'slide'
      - *sclype ~ slype* 'slap'
      - *sklent ~ slent* 'slant'


   - *spl- > skl-?**
   *
      - *sklinter* 'splinter'

What do you think is going on where Medieval French does not account for
the formations?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (about to be snowed in again ...)

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 18 21:20:35 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:20:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.18 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2012.132035.0800.>

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From: Andy andy at scots-online.org
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.17 (02) [EN]

R. F. Hahn wrote:

 I am intrigued by some Scots words with scl... in which the /s-/ or the
> /-k-/ seem to be intrusive. I wonder if we can make sense of this somehow.
>

 Examples:
>

 Intrusive s?
>

 sclammer 'clamber'
> sclammer 'clamor'
> sclim 'climb'
>

 Intrusive k?
>

 sclice 'slice' [Medieval French esclicier!]
> sclidder ~ slidder 'slither'
> sclate ~ slate 'slate' [Medieval French esclat!]
> sclender ~ sclinner 'slender' [Medieval French esclendre!]
> scly 'slide'
> sclype ~ slype 'slap'
> sklent ~ slent 'slant'
>

 spl- > skl-?
>

 sklinter 'splinter'
>

 What do you think is going on where Medieval French does not account for
> the formations?
>

The prothetic (intrusive) s is most frequently prefixed to words begining
with /k, p, t/ and occasionally /l/ and /m/.
also spatch 'patch', spink 'pink', stramp 'tramp', smush 'mush'.

Perhaps some influence from Norse cf. shoot and skeet, shirt and skirt,
ship and skip etc.

The intrusive k, where Medieval French does not account for the /skl/, may
be modifications by analogy with words that have etymological /skl/,
perhaps reinforced by the /kl/ to /skl/ above.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.17 (02) [EN]

Hope you are not snowed in too bad, Ron...

About the Scots sclusters, I have my own little theory:

Old Anglosaxon sc- became something like sh- in Scots, as in English, at
least in some cases,
e.g. when a front vowel followed.
As the cluster scr- became shr-, the similar cluster sl- became scl-

About this parallell of sl- with scr-: in Dutch it's not possible too say
sr- , must be schr- [sxr].
In Dutch, many people even say Schri Lanka with intrusive ch [x] -> [sxri].
In German that would be schr- [SR], and in German, one can not say sl-, it
must be schl- [Sl].

Later the Vikings influenced Scots and sh- was replaced back by sk- again,
parallell to the many
Scandinavian words were borrowed into Scots and English with sk/sc  instead
of sh:
scream, scrape, scuttle, sky, skim, skittish  etc.

But in Scots, shr- and shl- were both restored as scr-, scl-, so even old
sl- became scl- via shl-.
In your examples, all the words with scl- have a front vowel, maybe that
was important for sl-
to become shl- as well (influence of Celtic slenderness?)

Just by 2 eurocents.

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonolgy

Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by some Scots words with scl... in which the /s-/ or the
/-k-/ seem to be intrusive. I wonder if we can make sense of this somehow.

Examples:

Intrusive s?

sclammer 'clamber'
sclammer 'clamor'
sclim 'climb'

Intrusive k?

sclice 'slice' [Medieval French esclicier!]

sclidder ~ slidder 'slither'
sclate ~ slate 'slate' [Medieval French esclat!]
sclender ~ sclinner 'slender' [Medieval French esclendre!]
scly 'slide'
sclype ~ slype 'slap'
sklent ~ slent 'slant'

spl- > skl-?

sklinter 'splinter'

What do you think is going on where Medieval French does not account for
the formations?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (about to be snowed in again ...)


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 18 21:23:55 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:23:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2012.01.19 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2012.132355.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.17 (01) [EN]

Best' Lowlanners.

Bi uns is de Dag Appelbom (Der Tag des Apfelbaums - 13. September) an 'n
13.  Dag in'n Harwstmand un dat weit womoeglich keinein.

http://www.festtagsgedichte.de/jahreszeitliches/der-tag/des-apfelbaums---13-september.htm
*FN. *

*Apfelbaum **(mhd. *apfelboum, für die alte *germ. *Benennung *mhd.*apfalter,
*ahd.* affoltra, *aeng. *apulder, *aisl. *apaldr.
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Appelbom *m. Apfelbaum, pirus malus, spielt im Volksglauben eine Rolle:
wird einem jungen Apfelbaum seine erste Frucht gestohlen, so hat er keine
Art; er wird stets reichlich Frucht tragen, wenn man die ersten Äpfel, die
er trägt, in einen großen Sack pflückt; bei der Obsternte muß mindestens
ein Apfel (der *Dräg- *oder *Saatappel*) am Baum bleiben, sonst trägt er
nicht wieder; an einen schlecht tragenden Apfelbaum bindet man Steine und
spricht dabei: 'Wenn du nicht willst Äpfel tragen, sollt (sollt steht hier
so) du Steine tragen'. Appelbom/*Awtbom; *besonders in der magischen
Krankheitsbehandlung wirksam:
Kranke soll man bei Sonnenaufgang unter einen Apfelbaum tragen; auf ihn
überträgt man die Krankheit, indem man einen Zweig in die Hand nimmt und
spricht: *Appelbom, ick klag di, De Gicht plagt mi,Ick bed' di s' an Un gah
dorvan*; andererorts soll nur eine Frau dem Apfelbaum ihr Leid *anklagen*,
der Mann dagegen einen Birnbaum; ferner soll der Ap felbaum den Anblick der
Ostersonne vermitteln, wenn man einen Eimer Wasser unter ihn setzt; in
Hagenow-Moraas wurde früher eine Glocke im Apfelbaum geläutet, wenn jem.
beerdigt wurde;  tröstende  Redensart zum Kinde: *dor *(auf der Stelle, wo
das Kind hingefallen ist)  *sall ok 'n groten Appelbom up wassen.
*Apfeldokter m. Apfeldoktor, Scherzname für den Gärtner, der die Apfelbäume
pflegt und veredelt; appeldœmlich Adj. äußerst dämlich; Appeldruw m. gleich
*Druwappel *Traubenapfel, häufig als Kosenamen für ein kleines Kind;
Appeldüneken Name der Kröte im Tiergespräch; Appelduurn m. der wilde
Aofelbaum, pirus malus; FN. (Flurname): *Appeldorn.*
*appeldwalsch *(hat nichts mit dem Apfel zu tun): Adj. sehr albern, ganz
töricht, eine Doppelbildung aus *abelsch *(albern) und dem
gleichbedeutenden *dwalsch.*
Lit.: Perfesser Voßlo

Dat is oewer noch nich all'ns oewer den'n Appel.

Nu bün ick up  'n Smack kamen un ät 'n  Boskop (Boskoop, nach dem niederl.
Ort Boskoop).

So as ümmer.

Hanne

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: 2 . richtige Antwort. Re: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.17 (01) [EN]

Am 18.01.2012 12:09, schrieb Hannelore Hinz:

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.17 (01) [EN]

Best' Lowlanners.

Bi uns is de Dag Appelbom (Der Tag des Apfelbaums - 13. September) an 'n
13.  Dag in'n Harwstmand un dat weit womoeglich keinein.

http://www.festtagsgedichte.de/jahreszeitliches/der-tag/des-apfelbaums---13-september.htm


*Apfelbaum **(mhd. *apfelboum, für die alte *germ. *Benennung *mhd.*apfalter,
*ahd.* affoltra, *aeng. *apulder, *aisl. *apaldr.
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Appelbom *m. Apfelbaum, pirus malus, spielt im Volksglauben eine Rolle:
wird einem jungen Apfelbaum seine erste Frucht gestohlen, so hat er keine
Art; er wird stets reichlich Frucht tragen, wenn man die ersten Äpfel, die
er trägt, in einen großen Sack pflückt; bei der Obsternte muß mindestens
ein Apfel (der *Dräg- *oder *Saatappel*) am Baum bleiben, sonst trägt er
nicht wieder; an einen schlecht tragenden Apfelbaum bindet man Steine und
spricht dabei: 'Wenn du nicht willst Äpfel tragen, sollt (sollt steht hier
so) du Steine tragen'. Appelbom/*Awtbom; *besonders in der magischen
Krankheitsbehandlung wirksam:
Kranke soll man bei Sonnenaufgang unter einen Apfelbaum tragen; auf ihn
überträgt man die Krankheit, indem man einen Zweig in die Hand nimmt und
spricht: *Appelbom, ick klag di, De Gicht plagt mi,Ick bed' di s' an Un gah
dorvan*; andererorts soll nur eine Frau dem Apfelbaum ihr Leid *anklagen*,
der Mann dagegen einen Birnbaum; ferner soll der Ap felbaum den Anblick der
Ostersonne vermitteln, wenn man einen Eimer Wasser unter ihn setzt; in
Hagenow-Moraas wurde früher eine Glocke im Apfelbaum geläutet, wenn jem.
beerdigt wurde;  tröstende  Redensart zum Kinde: *dor *(auf der Stelle, wo
das Kind hingefallen ist)  *sall ok 'n groten Appelbom up wassen.
*Apfeldokter m. Apfeldoktor, Scherzname für den Gärtner, der die Apfelbäume
pflegt und veredelt; appeldœmlich Adj. äußerst dämlich; Appeldruw m. gleich
*Druwappel *Traubenapfel, häufig als Kosenamen für ein kleines Kind;
Appeldüneken Name der Kröte im Tiergespräch; Appelduurn m. der wilde
Aofelbaum, pirus malus;

    FN. (Flurname): *Appeldorn.*
*
*
*appeldwalsch *(hat nichts mit dem Apfel zu tun): Adj. sehr albern, ganz
töricht, eine Doppelbildung aus *abelsch *(albern) und dem
gleichbedeutenden *dwalsch.*
Lit.: Perfesser Voßlo

Dat is oewer noch nich all'ns oewer den'n Appel.

Nu bün ick up  'n Smack kamen un ät 'n  Boskop (Boskoop, nach dem niederl.
Ort Boskoop).

So as ümmer.

Hanne


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 19 19:40:53 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:40:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2012.01.19 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2012.114053.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 19 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Thorsten Filter oike at gmx.de
Subject: Low German Syntax

Goden Dag,

ik wull fragen, wat een de nakamen Settels so bruken kann odder wat de
"unplattdüütsch" sünd. Dat kümmt mi hier nich up'e Würd' up an, de sünd
woll verscheden. Wat ik weten wull is, wat een "wat daan hebben willen"
bruken kunn.

1. He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben.

2. Se wull de sleten Butendör utwesselt hebben.

3. Se will de tochigen Finstern afdicht't hebben.

Besten Dank vöraf!

Thorsten Filter
Veikvitz/Rügen

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 20 04:46:41 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:46:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2012.01.19 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2012.204641.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 19 January 2012 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Beste Thorsten,

Du schreevst:

ik wull fragen, wat een de nakamen Settels so bruken kann odder wat de
"unplattdüütsch" sünd. Dat kümmt mi hier nich up'e Würd' up an, de sünd
woll verscheden. Wat ik weten wull is, wat een "wat daan hebben willen"
bruken kunn.

1. He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben.

2. Se wull de sleten Butendör utwesselt hebben.

3. Se will de tochigen Finstern afdicht't hebben.

Ik wöör dat up annere Aard un Wies' seggen:

   1. He wull, dat se sien Auto wascht/wuschen.
   2. He wull, dat se sien Auto wascht/wuschen dẹẹn.
   3. He wull, dat sien Auto wascht/wuschen wöör.

Man "He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben." klingt ook akzeptabel.

   1. Se wull, dat de sletene Butendöör utwesselt wöör.

Ook hier klingt "Se wull de sletene Butendöör utwesselt hebben." mehr or
minn akzeptabel.

   1. Se will, dat de tochigen Finstern afdichtt wöörn.

Un, ja, " Se will de tochigen Finstern afdichtt hebben." wöör ik wull
akzepteern.

Mit fründliche Grötens uut 't versneete Seattle, Amerika.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

From: Thorsten Filter oike at gmx.de
Subject: Low German Syntax

Goden Dag,

ik wull fragen, wat een de nakamen Settels so bruken kann odder wat de
"unplattdüütsch" sünd. Dat kümmt mi hier nich up'e Würd' up an, de sünd
woll verscheden. Wat ik weten wull is, wat een "wat daan hebben willen"
bruken kunn.

1. He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben.

2. Se wull de sleten Butendör utwesselt hebben.

3. Se will de tochigen Finstern afdicht't hebben.

Besten Dank vöraf!

Thorsten Filter
Veikvitz/Rügen

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 20 15:18:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:18:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2012.01.20 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2012.071819.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 20 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Low German Syntax

Best' Thorsten un Lowlanners,

ick heff hüt ierst Tied, up dit "Subject" wat tau vermell'n.

*waschen *wie im Hd. Hd.: Präs. *wasch, wascht *(lautvereinfachende
Endung), *wascht, waschen*; Prät. stark, früher *wusch; *geläufig
*wüsch *(RITT.
J. G. C. Ritter, Grammatik der mecklenburgisch-plattdeutschen Mundart.
Rostock und Schwerin 1832.)

Wi täuben je ümmer noch up dat niege Bauk 'Plattdeutsch- hochdeutsches
Wörterbuch
für Vorpommern'.
Liekers kann man ok ein Oog smieten up/in dat Bauk
'Plattdeutch-hochdeutsches Wörterbuch für den
mecklenburgisch-vorpommerschen Sprachraum'.

Mien Idol (Vorbild) Perfesser Voßlo.

Also bäter so:  He wull sien Auto wascht hebben.
                         He wull, dat sien Auto wascht ward.
                         Süll he sien Auto waschen laten?
                         Ja, sien Auto möt wascht warden.

 Dat Anner is mi tau Hochdüütsch dacht. Is man blot ein Oewersetten.

*Wasch, Wäsch* Egentlich gellt dat Waschen man blot för *de Wäsch' waschen*;
*bi uns is hüt grot Wasch*.

John Brinckman sien Riemel *Grot Wasch *vertellt oewer Waschen von ein'n
Slüngel. In'n föften Riemel heit dat "... nu wasch wi eens rasch di un
knasch di, min Soehn,
dat Water is frisch uten Born!"

*utwesseln *auswechseln: *Balken utwesseln; ick heff Geld
utwesselt.*Plattdüütsch is doch ein Sprak in Biller, dat vermiss ick
hier bi all'
Texten. (Na ja, so-la-la)

*afdichten *abdichten, dicht machen, *meist von Schiffen*: *een Schipp
afdichten.*

*dicht *dicht, eng zusammenhaltend, fest, *undurchlässig*.

Se will de tochigen Finstern dicht hebben.

'dicht' hett väl Bedüden: *de Sak dicht tau maken *(sie endgültig zu
regeln); *de Fri dicht maken *die Verlobung feiern; eine Frau, die mehrere
Schürzen übereinander gebunden hat, fragt man *wist woll ne Fri dicht
maken, *d.h. du willst wohl Freiwerber spielen? -
*dicht hollen *undurchlässig sein; bildl. verschweigen, nicht nachsagen; *dee
*(Schwätzer) *höllt nich dicht; dee is nich ganz dicht *von einem
lungenkranken Pferd; *dee is nich dicht baben *er ist verrückt, *dee is
nich dicht an 'n Rüggen *ist diebisch, trägt gern etwas fort; *ick bün
hinnen dicht *habe nichts zu befürchten, sagt der letzte Kegelspieler, der
seine Gegner zu überholen hofft.

Dim.* **dichting;  dichting bi *nahe bei.
Zss.: *pott-, spunt-, waterdicht.
*Mnd. *dicht

*Hm, so künn dat ok heiten "Se will de tochigen Finstern waterdicht
hebben." (Ok stormdicht usw.)

Best' Gräuten un ümmer an'n Ball bliewen för uns' leiw' Plattdüütsch.

Hannelore Hinz

(Hier hett dat ok sniet.)

----------

From: list at marcusbuck.org
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2012.01.19 (01) [NDS]

From: Thorsten Filter oike at gmx.de
> Subject: Low German Syntax
>

 ik wull fragen, wat een de nakamen Settels so bruken kann odder wat de
> "unplattdüütsch" sünd. Dat kümmt mi hier nich up'e Würd' up an, de sünd
> woll verscheden. Wat ik weten wull is, wat een "wat daan hebben willen"
> bruken kunn.
>
> 1. He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben.
>

Bi Google Böker kannst to'n Bispeel na "wull * hebben" söken. Denn kriggst
allens, wo de Wöör "wull" un "hebben" in vörkaamt un wo noch wat
twischensteiht (Google Böker bruuk ik för de Söök, dat dor de ganzen Texten
rutfallt, de hüdigendaags von "Nich-Mehr-So-Richtig-Moderspr
aaklers" schreven warrt).

Bi mien Söök is rutkamen, dat "wull + Objekt + PPP + hebben" vör allen för
den Konjunktiv bruukt warrt:
"Herr Inspektor, ick wull Sei bäden hebben, ob ick hüüt nich 'n bäten na
min'n Ollen gahn künn?" (Herr Inspektor, ich würde sie gerne bitten, ob ich
heute nich ein bisschen zu meinem Alten gehen könnte?)
"Wenn de Saak klaar west weer, wull ik ehr mitbröcht hebben." (Wenn die
Sache klar gewesen wäre, hätte ich sie mitgebracht.)

Da is ja nich dat, wat du meenst.

De eenzige Steed, de ik funnen heff, de dat so bruukt, as du dat meenst:
"Vull Erwartung und vull Dank grellen sei na dit Bild, öwer Hermann sin
Stolz wull nicks schenkt hebben" (1886, <
http://books.google.de/books?id=PDpnEUx5ouAC&q=%22wull+*+hebben%22&dq=%22wull+*+hebben%22&hl=de&sa=X&ei=N3oZT9DqGo6BhQfIoNm2DA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBDgo
>)

"nichts geschenkt haben wollen" is ja nu ok so'n Phraas för sik, dat gellt
also villicht nich veel.

Wat mi angeiht, meen ik, dat de Funnen in de Literatur (de Nich-Funnen) dor
op hendüüdt, dat dat op Plattdüütsch normalerwies so nich bruukt warrt.

Op de anner Sied mutt een liekers seggen, dat dat en Form is, gegen de ut
grammatische Sicht nix gegensnackt.

"He wull dat nich wohr hebben" kummt in de Literatur fakener vör. "nich
wohr" is en Egenschop von "dat", jüstso as "wuschen" en Egenschop von
"Auto" is. Wenn wi dat as "Substantiv + wull + Objekt + Egenschop + hebben"
oplööst, denn passt dat also.

Marcus Buck

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 23 19:00:15 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:00:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2012.01.23 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JAN.2012.110015.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 23 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Roger Thijs rogerthijs at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L Events

I have been distributing this message about Brussels largely this Sunday.
The settlement got a Belgian name, but was rather (low?) German.
Because of my accent they asked me if I was German over there.
One finds also a Hamburg in the area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg,_Illinois
Regards
Roger

Please help Brussels, IL, with rebuilding St. Mary’s Roman Catholic Church,
burned out completely on last Christmas Eve.
Brussels is a small village, North of St Louis, MO, lost and squeezed
between the Mississippi and the Illinois rivers. Except for a long detour
from the North it is only accessible by ferries.
No doubt it will be extremely difficult for this small community to find
the funding for a restoration.
Father Moliter from Brussels Belgium was the first resident priest in this
community around 1852.  I hope many people from Brussels and Belgium will
help these people in the spirit of the the “ketje” who did it before.
I add a couple of pictures I made today in Brussels, as well as a pdf file
with some info from the internet. I’m just a Belgian momentarily for
business in St. Louis and I’m sending this only in a spirit of sympathy.
Pse verify yourself the reliability of the receivers of your help. The
village is quite poorly developed, I did not find any gas station and at
the local restaurant, the Wittmond Hotel, though a US recognized historic
place, they only accept cash, no credit cards.
Thanks and regards,

Roger Thijs,
Euro-Support, Inc., Wilmington DE, Lille France and Steenokkerzeel, Belgium
posting from Brentwood, Missouri


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 24 01:17:55 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:17:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2012.01.23 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JAN.2012.171755.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 23 January 2012 - Volume 02
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From: "Ultonia Communications" <info at ultonia.com>
Subject: New Publication

Dear Members,

Lowlanders may be interested in this forthcoming publication:

https://www.createspace.com/3762414

This publication promises to be the first "Reference Grammar" of any
variety of Scots. Taking Ulster Scots as its focus, it runs through the
structure and syntax of the written language, combining both literature and
modern usage to distinguish between registers and to provide
recommendations for a regular written version aimed both at translators of
formal documents and creative writers of prose.

Grammar is often an overlooked part of minority language development, with
the focus often placed on vocabulary and phonology. This book aims to
correct this not just by providing a full overview of Ulster Scots, but
also providing notes on links to other languages and dialects (primarily
Germanic).

It is hoped the book will be available across North America and Western
Europe by mid-2012.

Warmest regards,

Ian James Parsley
Newtownabbey, Northern Ireland

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Hi, Ian! It's great to hear from you again.

Congratulations on the forthcoming publication of your reference grammar! I
feel excited about it and can't wait to peruse it.

When the time comes, I will add references to our Scots resources list (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/sco.php) and will also list the book in our
Lowlands-L Shops (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php).

Best wishes for this enterprise!

Regards to all, and 恭喜發財 (Mandarin:* Gōngxǐ fācái*, Hokkien: *Kiong-hí
hoat-châi,* Cantonese: *Gung1** hei2** faat3** coi4*, Hakka: *Kung Hii Fatt
Choi*) for Chinese New Year (春節)! I am including all of you that celebrate
it, namely all Koreans (설날 *Seollal*), Japanese (正月* Shōgatsu*), Vietnamese
(*Tết*), Mongolians (Цагаан сар / ᠴᠠᠭᠠᠨ ᠰᠠᠷᠠ* Tsagaan Sar*) and Tibetans (
ལོ་གསར *lo-gsar/Losar*). May the Year of the Dragon be a good year for us
all!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 25 02:02:50 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:02:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2012.01.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JAN.2012.180250.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Mike Morgan mwmbombay at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2012.01.23 (02) [EN]

Not sure what is meant by

> the first "Reference Grammar" of any variety of Scots
>
but Philip Robinson's *Ulster-Scots Grammar* was first published in 1997
and a revised edition was issued in 2007. AND, it sure meets MY criteria
for what a reference grammar should be...

http://www.ulsterscotslanguage.com/en/books/reference-books/ulster-scots-a-grammar-of-the-traditional-written-and-spoken-language/

Still, we welcome a SECOND reference grammar (and a third or fourth as well)

And I join R/R in wishing everyone:
大展鴻圖! 吉慶有餘! and 萬事如意!
mwm || *U* C > || mike || мика  || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)
sign language linguist / linguistic typologist at large / "Have
language(s), will travel"

*"If one has no affection for a person or a system, one should feel free to
give the fullest expression to his disaffection so long as he does not
contemplate, promote, or incite violence." (MKG)
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders
and decrees. An evil administration never deserves such allegiance.
Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil.* *A good person will resist
an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil
state is therefore a duty." (MKG)*
been there, done that...


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 25 19:32:13 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:32:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.25 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JAN.2012.113213.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL> <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.18 #01# [EN]

Hi, Ron

I was wondering what you thought of Andy Eagle's and my reaction to your
question about Scots sclusters

Ingmar

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.17 (02) [EN]

Hope you are not snowed in too badly, Ron...

About the Scots sclusters, I have my own little theory:

Old Anglosaxon sc- became something like sh- in Scots, as in English, at
least in some cases,
e.g. when a front vowel followed.
As the cluster scr- became shr-, the similar cluster sl- became scl-

About this parallell of sl- with scr-: in Dutch it's not possible too say
sr- , must be schr- [sxr].
In Dutch, many people even say Schri Lanka with intrusive ch [x] -> [sxri].
In German that would be schr- [SR], and in German, one can not say sl-, it
must be schl- [Sl].

Later the Vikings influenced Scots and sh- was replaced back by sk- again,
parallell to the many
Scandinavian words were borrowed into Scots and English with sk/sc  instead
of sh:
scream, scrape, scuttle, sky, skim, skittish  etc.

But in Scots, shr- and shl- were both restored as scr-, scl-, so even old
sl- became scl- via shl-.
In your examples, all the words with scl- have a front vowel, maybe that
was important for sl-
to become shl- as well (influence of Celtic slenderness?)

Just by 2 eurocents.

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Phonolgy

Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by some Scots words with scl... in which the /s-/ or the
/-k-/ seem to be intrusive. I wonder if we can make sense of this somehow.

Examples:

Intrusive s?

sclammer 'clamber'
sclammer 'clamor'
sclim 'climb'

Intrusive k?

sclice 'slice' [Medieval French esclicier!]

sclidder ~ slidder 'slither'
sclate ~ slate 'slate' [Medieval French esclat!]
sclender ~ sclinner 'slender' [Medieval French esclendre!]
scly 'slide'
sclype ~ slype 'slap'
sklent ~ slent 'slant'

spl- > skl-?

sklinter 'splinter'

What do you think is going on where Medieval French does not account for
the formations?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (about to be snowed in again ...)

 ----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonolgy

Hi, Ingmar!

So far I have merely tossing the info I got from you and Andy around in my
head. (I've been rather busy and also under the weather.)

At this point, Andy's proposal that we are dealing with analogous extension
seems rather appealing to me.

Thanks to both of you!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (no more snow but wind ...)

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 25 19:38:18 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:38:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Resources' 2012.01.25 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JAN.2012.113818.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Resources" [EN]

Politics.ie, the Irish politics forum, has a very good thread on archaic
words in Ireland<http://www.politics.ie/forum/culture-community/123046-archaic-phrases-92.html>,
in effect the change in Hiberno-English and other dialects in Ireland.

Do be warned there are a lot of offensive posts on it too though :-(

  ----------

 From: Ultonia Communications info at ultonia.com
 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2012.01.24 (01) [EN]

Hi Mike,

Robinson's version, which you rightly note is now available in second
edition, was self-defined as a *descriptive* grammar.

If you look at this:
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAReferenceGrammar.htm

Robinson's is intended (from his own introduction) to fall into the
right-hand column (whether it does or doesn't is, I guess, for the reader
ultimately to assess). This one, however, is intended for the left-hand
column!

Regards,
Ian P.

Ian James Parsley
Ultonia Communications
"Creating Understanding"

T: +44 (0)28 9146 4579
E: info at ultonia.com
W: www.ultonia.com

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 26 19:33:23 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:33:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.26 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2012.113323.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: "Etymology"Pl.

*Intelligent und ein Leben lang treu: die Dohle*
Zum Vogel des Jahres 2012 gewählt
(dat sünd wi Lowlanners ok)

http://www.nabu.de/aktionenundprojekte/vogeldesjahres/2012-dohle/

De *Preisterduw *f. Dohle hett väl Namens.

Nahslagen heff ick bi Perfesser Voßlo un 'Schriftenreihe des
Karbe-Wagner-Archivs, Heft 8
'Unterhaltsame Volkskunde' zusammengestellt, bevorwortet und redigiert von
Annalise Wagner, Neustrelitz 1971.  Dohle: Preesterduw, Thalk, Klaas, Kauk

Hier nu, wat Perfesser Voßlo sammelt hett:
*Preisterduw *f. Dohle, so benannt, weil sie gern am Kirchturm nisten und
sitzen.
De Preisterduw tellt tau *Raw *Rabe, Pl. *Raben, Rawen*. - Mnd. *ravene,
raven, rave.
**Klas* f. Dohle, *De Klœs' dor vör ehr Nester*; man sagt, die *Klœ*s'
können sprechen lernen, wenn ihnen die Zunge gelöst wird.
FN.: *Klasbäk, -barg, -koppel, -kraug, -weg.*

Schrfitenreihe: *Kauk *f. Dohle, weil ihr Ruf "kauk-kauk" lautet.

*DUDEN 7 *Etymologie der deutschen Sprache:
*Dohle: *Die heute übliche Form des Vogelnamens stammt aus dem *Mitteld.
(Thüring.)* und erlangte im 16. Jh. gemeinsprachliche Geltung.
*Mhd. *tahele, tāle (beachte *mdal. *Dahle) ist eine Verkleinerungsbildung
zu gleichbed. *mhd. *tahe, *ahd. *taha, vgl. *engl. *daw "Dohle". Der
kleine Rabenvogel ist nach seinem eigentümlichen Lockruf benannt.

Dat künn je sien, dat *Thalk  *von *tahele, tāle *stammen deit...?

Ein Nahwer hadd in sien'n Gorden ein *Preisterduv*, de Jakob heiten hett un
tau un tau nüdlich snacken künn. Wi Gören dunnmals hebben uns' Freud' an
hatt.

Un woväl Namens künn de Preisterduv in anner Spraken hebben...?

Nu ward dat hier woll bilütten Winter.

Hartlich.
Hanne

  ----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:Etymology

Dank di, Hanne!

Folks, the bird Hanne mentioned about (Low Saxon *Preesterduv' ~
Preisterduv'* "priest's dove/pigeon" and *Kauk*, German *Dohle*) is the
following, declared the bird of 2012:

*Corvus monedula*
English: jackdaw
Scots: *kae*
Frisian:
*   *West: *kôgje*
*   *East (Sater): *doole*
* *   North: *likfögel*, *likenföögel**, **alk*, *ålken*
Dutch: *kauw, ka, kerkkauw*
   Western Flemish: *kauwe*
Limburgish: *kauw*
Danish: *allike*
Norwegian:
   Dano-: *kaie*
*   *New:* kaie*
Swedish: *kaja*

Other Low Saxon dialects have *Dohl* and *Krickelkreih*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (where it's almost sunny for a change)


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 27 06:23:06 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:23:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Resources' 2012.01.26 (02) [EN-SCO]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2012.222306.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Michael Everson everson at evertype.com
Subject: "Alice's Carrànts in Wunnerlan" (Alice in Ulster Scots) published
by Evertype

Evertype would like to announce the publication of Anne Morrison-Smyth's
translation of "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" into the Ulster Scots
language, "Alice's Carrànts in Wunnerlan". The book uses John Tenniel's
classic illustrations. A page with links to Amazon.com and
Amazon.co.uk<http://amazon.co.uk/>is available athttp://
www.evertype.com/books/alice-ulster.html . Bookstores can order copies at a
discount from the publisher.

>From the Introduction (English follows below):

Lewis Carroll is a pen-name: Charles Lutwidge Dodgson wus the scriever’s
richt name an hae wus lecturer in Mathematics in Christ Church, Oxford.
Dodgson stairtet the story on 4 July 1862, whin hae tuk a jaunt in a rowin
boat on the river Thames in Oxford thegither wi the Reverent Robinson
Duckworth, wi Alice Liddell (ten years oul), the dochter o the Deen o
Christ Church, an wi her twa sisters, Lorina (thirteen years oul), an Edith
(eight years oul). Frae the beginnin o the book, it’s clear that the thrie
weelàsses axt Dodgson fur a story an, reluctant at furst, hae stairtet tae
tell the furst version o the story tae thim. Monie half-hidden refrences ir
med tae the five o thim throughout the text o the book itsel, whuch wus
publisht at last in 1865.

This buk is the furst translation o Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland intae
Ulster Scots, a language that comes frae the Lowlans in Scotlan an thin wus
brocht intae Norlin Airlan in the early 17th Century. Es it’s a dialect o
Scots it haes close links wi standart Inglesh, but thur’s monie differences
in baith grammer an vocabulary between the twa languages.

The orthography used in this book’s based on the spellins that ir maistly
used bae native taakers o Ulster Scots. Baecaas Ulster Scots haes only
recently bin wrote doon mere, it haesnae a fully standardized orthography,
es weel es authoritative an comprehensive dictionaries tae help scrievers
tae spell consistently. Baecaas Ulster Scots wusnae lukt upon es a language
in its ain richt scrievers o Ulster Scots hae larnt tae think in thur ain
language an scrieve doon wurds in standart Inglesh—an so whin fowk write in
Ulster Scots, they hae tae stap a weethin ivery noo an agane tae mine hoo
some wurds ir spelt.

A guid deel o effert haes bin putt intae makin sure the orthography used in
Alice’s Carrànts in Wunnerlan is es consistent es possible. The spellin
conforms tae traditional practices amang maist o them that scrieve in
Ulster Scots an shud bae aisily read bae native taakers o the language,
that hae bin brocht up in the Ulster Scots taakin airts.

Lewis Carroll is a pen-name: Charles Lutwidge Dodgson was the author’s real
name and he was lecturer in Mathematics in Christ Church, Oxford. Dodgson
began the story on 4 July 1862, when he took a journey in a rowing boat on
the river Thames in Oxford together with the Reverend Robinson Duckworth,
with Alice Liddell (ten years of age) the daughter of the Dean of Christ
Church, and with her two sisters, Lorina (thirteen years of age), and Edith
(eight years of age). As is clear from the poem at the beginning of the
book, the three girls asked Dodgson for a story and reluctantly at first he
began to tell the first version of the story to them. There are many
half-hidden references are made to the five of them throughout the text of
the book itself, which was published finally in 1865.

This book is the first translation of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland into
Ulster Scots, a language which derives from the Lowlands in Scotland and
which was imported into Northern Ireland in the early 17th century. As a
dialect of Scots, it is closely related to standard English, but there are
many differences in both grammar and vocabulary between the two languages.

The orthography used in this book is based on the spellings that are mostly
used by native speakers of Ulster Scots. Since Ulster Scots has only
recently been written down, it lacks a fully standardized orthography, as
well as authoritative and comprehensive dictionaries to help writers to
spell consistently. Since Ulster Scots was not previously recognized as a
language in its own right, writers of Ulster Scots have learned to think in
their own language while writing down words in standard English—and so when
people write Ulster Scots, they often have to pause to remember how certain
words are spelled.

A good deal of effort has been put into ensuring that the orthography used
in Alice’s Carrànts in Wunnerlan is as consistent as possible. The spelling
conforms to traditional practices amongst most of those writing in Ulster
Scots and should be easily read by native speakers of Ulster Scots, brought
up in the Ulster Scots speaking areas.

==========
Michaael Everson
Evertype, http://alice-in-wonderland-books.com

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 27 18:33:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:33:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JAN.2012.103319.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
 Subject: LL-L 'Resources' 2012.01.26 (02) [EN-SCO]

Re “ Alice’s Carrànts in Wunnerlan”

Can anybody tell me the etymology of ‘Carrànts’?

Alvast bedankt

Jacqueline Bdj
Seattle USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 28 00:55:15 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:55:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (02) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JAN.2012.165515.0800.>

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From: Andy andy at scots-online.org
 Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (01) [EN-NL]

Jacqueline wrote:

Re “ Alice’s Carrànts in Wunnerlan”
Can anybody tell me the etymology of ‘Carrànts’?

>From French courante.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'

Beste Jacqueline,

You wrote:

Re “ Alice’s Carrànts in Wunnerlan”

Can anybody tell me the etymology of ‘Carrànts’?


Seems cognate with Dutch "krant", which < courant (French for "running").
See also:

etymologiebank.nl <http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/krant>

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 28 15:03:37 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:03:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.28 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JAN.2012.070337.0800.>

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From: KarlRein at aol.com
 Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (02) [EN-NL]

*I too would assume that "carrànts" is cognate with Du. "krant".  However,
Fr. "courant", originally coming from the present participle of "courir"
meaning "run", has long ago taken on the meaning of "up-to-datedness" as in
the expression "au courant" meaning "knowing what is going on, aware of the
latest", = Du. "op de hoogte."  Thus: "the news," just as is suggested in
Du. "krant."*
**
*Karl Reinhardt*
**
*Bellaire, Texas, USA*

 In a message dated 1/27/2012 6:55:48 P.M. Central Standard Time,
lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM writes:

From: Andy andy at scots-online.org
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (01) [EN-NL]

Jacqueline wrote:

Re “ Alice’s Carrànts in Wunnerlan”
Can anybody tell me the etymology of ‘Carrànts’?

>From French courante.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'

Beste Jacqueline,

 You wrote:

  Re “ Alice’s Carrànts in Wunnerlan”

Can anybody tell me the etymology of ‘Carrànts’?


Seems cognate with Dutch "krant", which < courant (French for "running").
See also:

etymologiebank.nl <http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/krant>

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 28 19:35:35 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:35:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.28 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JAN.2012.113535.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 28 January 2012 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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From: "Steven Hanson" <ammurit at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.28 (01) [EN]

This is similar to English usage of the word ‘current’, as in ‘current
events’, and so on.

From: KarlRein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (02) [EN-NL]

*I too would assume that "carrànts" is cognate with Du. "krant".  However,
Fr. "courant", originally coming from the present participle of "courir"
meaning "run", has long ago taken on the meaning of "up-to-datedness" as in
the expression "au courant" meaning "knowing what is going on, aware of the
latest", = Du. "op de hoogte."  Thus: "the news," just as is suggested in
Du. "krant."*



*Karl Reinhardt*


*Bellaire, Texas, USA*

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'

Beste Karl,

You wrote:

*I too would assume that "carrànts" is cognate with Du. "krant".  However,
Fr. "courant", originally coming from the present participle of "courir"
meaning "run", has long ago taken on the meaning of "up-to-datedness" as in
the expression "au courant" meaning "knowing what is going on, aware of the
latest", = Du. "op de hoogte."  Thus: "the news," just as is suggested in
Du. "krant."*


Three more Lowlands examples:

   - current (E), as in "current news"...news of the day
   - currency (E) ~ money, passing from person to person...the act of money
   "in motion" is stressed here
   - de courant (B, "de koeraañ), electricity, stroom (D), a stream of
   electrons


Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 29 14:17:55 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:17:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Language Politics' 2012.01.29 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JAN.2012.061755.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 29 January 2012 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: Language Politics

Here you can see how and why Low Saxon will become the world's language
(again):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk5Y8iB_yWI&feature=related

Ingmar
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 30 04:21:24 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:21:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Resources' 2012.01.29 (02) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JAN.2012.202124.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 29 January 2012 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subjeckt: Language Politics

Hier all vörweg ein Gräuten ut Swerin bi Küll un Snei,

Ingmar wrote:
Here you can see how and why Low Saxon will become the world's
language (again).

Ick heff de Web-Sid besöcht un mi ok lütt bäten oewer dat Ökeln (*glossiert?)
*hoegt. So einfach is dat woll nich, as uns'  Frünn'n (Friesen) sick dat so
denken.  So künn man oewer taugliek mal 'n echten Plattdüütschen snacken
hüren. Un dor kümmt dat up an. Hüt möten wi uns alltohopen för dat Bestahn,
üm de Pläg von Nedderdüütsch un anner Minnerheitenspraken insetten.

Jüst käm mi in den'n Sinn:

'Hör- und Lernbuch für das Plattdeutsche von Renate Herrmann-Winter.'
Tau dit Liehrbauk gifft dat ok ein CD.

So kann man in 60:53 Minuten echte Plattsnacker vertellen hüren, tau'n
Bispill:
- Kann man Plattdüütsch lihren/studeeren - Woans snacken wi Platt
(Aussprache) mit väl Verkloren -  odder wenn dat heit *Goden Dach, Gauden
Dag - Wenn dat üm dat Befinn'n geiht odder wat de Minsch sick so vörnahmen
hett -  Sick up de Kinnertied besinn'n - Kauken backen - oewer Fisch fangen
- up'n Land'n un wat oewer de Immen- usw.. -
Väl plattdüütsche Wür' un ok väl Vertellen mit echte Plattsnackers.
Soeben-un-twintig mal kannst di utsäuken, wat du jüst lihren wist.
*
Ick heff mi vör mien Antwuurt noch eins de CD anhüert. Schöne echte Klüer
ut Mäkelborg un ümtau.

Egentlich tau schaad, dat 't hiervon kein Web-Sied gäben deit.  De
GEMA-Rechte (Urheber-Rechte) möten inhollen warden. Dor süll man noch eins
oewer nahdenken...

Hartlich.

Hanne

-----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resourcers

Dank di, Hanne.

Folks, Hanne asked for a gloss for Low Saxon *Ökeln*. The closest I can get
to "translating" it is 'jesting', 'spoofing', 'teasing' ...
(*Ökelnaam*means 'nickname'.)

As for the book with CD Hanne referred to (*Hör- und Lernbuch für das
Plattdeutsche*, Renate Herrmann-Winter), it can be ordered through some of
our Lowlands-L Amazon Shops (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php):

Deutschland: http://astore.amazon.de/lowlal0d-21/detail/3356011006
France: http://astore.amazon.fr/lowlal01-21/detail/3356011006
UK: http://astore.amazon.co.uk/lowlands-shop_uk-21/detail/3356011006
USA: http://astore.amazon.com/lowlands-shop_us-20/detail/3356011006

If you order *anything* (not only books) from Amazon.com, please consider
doing so through our shops (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php). A
small percentage (which so far has been mere pennies) will go toward the
upkeep of Lowlands-L (which I am paying for out of my own pocket).

Have a good week!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 31 17:26:04 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:26:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Lexicon' 2012.01.31 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.31.JAN.2012.092604.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 31 January 2012 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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=====================================================

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at -online.de> <hannehinz at -online.de>
Subject: Etymologie/Tradition ?

So rasch kann dat miteins gahn, nu is de Winter mit grote Küll  un Snei dor.

*Glitschen

*Juchhei un ri, ra, ritsch!
Wi maken uns ein Glitsch
von baben an bet ünnen dal
un wedder trügg, un denn noch mal.
Ward dat ein feine Glitsch
vör't Hus von Mudder Witsch!

Nu geiht dat ri, ra, rutsch!
Wo ick de Bahn langflutsch;
ein Bein nah vörn, denn in de Huk.
Perdauz, dor flüggt ein up den'n Buk,
wieldeß ick wierer flutsch
un üm de Eck rümwutsch.

Vörbi is 't ri, ra, ratsch.
De Iesbahn ward tau Matsch.
Wo't gistern noch so speigelblank,
driwt hüt dat Wader lingelang,
bet allens is ein Matsch.
Un dat geiht ri, ra, ratsch.

Autorin: Ursula Kurz, Wittenburg
(de mi dat Vörstellen hüt per Quasselstripp verlöwt hett)

*Glitsch f. *Gleitbahn, welche sich die Kinder auf dem Eise oder festem
Schnee schaffen:  *ick mak di ok ne Glitsch, wenn dat Ies ierst höllt.* - *
glitschen* auf dem Eise gleiten; Steine auf der Oberfläche eines
Gewässers *glitschen
*lassen: 'ob er die ablate aus dem Munde in die Hand glitschen lassen
(habe), wisse er nicht' (1715); Schönberg/Bernstorf. Zss.: *af-,
utglitschen; waterglitschen.
*Auch unausgebackener, wasserstreifiger Zustand des Brotes: *all' een
Glitsch. *Zss.: *Lus'-, Rotz-, Slangenglitsch.*

*Stritschauh, *-schoh (*i *lang) m. Schlittschuh.  Olle Stritschauh kann
man sick hütigendags in dat Heimatmuseum Waren ankieken. *Sick Stritschauh
ansnallen; up dei blanken Stridschauhschau ... hentaususen; Stritschauh
lopen*; in Rdaa.: *dee  *(Betrunkener, der herumtorkelt) *löppt Stritschauh
*Wismar/Sternberg; *dor *(auf dicker Suppe) *kann 'n Stritschauh up
lopen *Malchin/Gielow;
*dee *(kahler Kopf) *is glatt, dat de Lüs' dor up Stritschoh lopen
kœnen *Rostock;
*dat is ne Küll, dat de Flöh up 'n Pißpott Stritschoh lopen* (is bäten
deftig) Rostock; Bes.(besonders): *Stritschauh sägeln; bi 't
Stritschauhsägeln* *ward* *dat Sägel œwer de* *Schuller hängt
*Rostock/Warnemünde;
zu *striden *1. Syn.: *Schrit-, Slittschauh. -* Mnd. *stritschô.
*Lit.: Perfesser Voßlo

Un wenn dat Ies bi grote Küll mit Larm *bosten *(bersten, brechen) deh,
müßt' man bannig bi 't Stritschauh-Lopen uppassen vunwägen de groten Ritzen.
Wi Kinner säden oewer *borsten*.
Bi dat *Stritschauhsägeln *hebben wi Kinner ümmer den'n Wintermantel
upknöpt; dat wier uns' *Sägel*. Binah wier dat  Suusen mit scharpen Wind
tau dull.

Dit wier bäten wat ut de Kinnertied bi Ies un Snei.

Un wat deiht sick bi uns' Lowlanners tau Wintertied...

Hartlich.
Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  1 19:17:21 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:17:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2012.01.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JAN.2012.111721.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 01 January 2012 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
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=====================================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in January of 2012! A happy new year to all of you!

I send you best wishes for the various holidays that fall into the last
month of the Gregorian calendar year.



Welcome to the person that joined us since the beginning of December 2011!

*United States of America*:
       Iowa:
             Des Moines [1]

 *SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*Subject headers*

Some of you are still not following the subject header rule (see *Do not
mix topics* under Rules below). Here in brief:


   - *Only one topic per message*
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   already exists for a given thread. Do not change or "tweak" it, not the
   date and language labels either!*
   - *Only if you start a thread may you suggest your own subject header,
   but do not insist on your subject header if I change it.*

*List Mail v Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as
responses to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this
distinction it could happen that your private message ends up posted to the
List. For administrative purposes, it's best if you use
lowlands.list at gmail.com.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from
the address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from
that address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to
unsubscribe or change their subscription configurations from addresses that
are not subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only
from the subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ([ ]). This indicates which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains
the URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting
proposals. In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities:



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon (in the US even groceries!) you might as well do so via our
Lowlands-L shops (so far in Canada, Germany, France, Japan, UK and USA - (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)) which have constantly changing
Lowlands-related selections. We (i.e. Lowlands-L) get a small percentage of
Amazon sales if you enter Amazon through these portals. Believe me: it
hardly pays a tiny fraction of the money I pay out of my own pocket to
bringing Lowlands-L to you, and I am not even counting the hours of work I
put into it.



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting
postings. So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.
*Many of you are still not following this rule. (Please see my note at the
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Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
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then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are visible only
to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward and
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We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your
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Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up
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Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
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Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
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Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please!

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
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*Edit quotes:* If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
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*Give credit:* Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If
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You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
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*Temporary Absence*

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   can attest, this has been working really well. It certainly beats the old,
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   - Once in a while people find themselves unsubscribed without notice.
   Some of them immediately suspect the worst: that I have "booted them out"
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   - Should you indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an
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Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)
sassisch at yahoo.com


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  1 23:31:15 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 15:31:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.01 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.1.JAN.2012.153115.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 01 January 2012 - Volume 02
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From: Dawn Work-MaKinne dawn at workmakinne.com
via<http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182>
 yahoo.com

Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2010.12.29 (02) [DE-NDS]


Dear Reinhard/Ron,

Thank you for the very helpful administrative email to begin the new year.
There are many things I need to learn as a returnee to the list. I have a
question that I tried to post to the list, but didn't accomplish very well.
I would like to request a translation of the post below, and I am willing
to pay to have this done. I am uncertain of the language (!) but I think
it's a form of Low Saxon? Anyway, what is list protocol for seeking help
like this? Or should someone like me who doesn't know the languages, not be
on the list at all? I can understand how that might be the case!

All my best, and happy new year!

Dawn Work-MaKinne
Des Moines, Iowa

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Traditions 'In de Tw?lwen'

Wenn't Johr tau End' geiht...

V?rweg Klaus Groth:
"Wir Plattdeutsche sind nicht eine naturw?chsige Kaste mit einer
volkst?mlichen Poesie: sondern wir haben ein ganzes Menschenherz im Leibe
und einen vollen Atem in der Brust; - - - wir haben und geben Poesie,
urteilt, was sie als solche wert sei."

In ein l?tt' Schummerstunn' v?r de Wiehnachtstied, oewer ok tw?schen
Wiehnachten un Niejohr hett  Gr??ing womoeglich m?nnigen Sp?ukelkram
vertellt, dit is mi j?st so infollen bi den Storm letzt' Nacht...
Fru Waud is ok ein von de, de in de Tw?lwen bi Storm ?m das Huus fleigen.
Un wenn ein so'n b?ten sw?klich in sienen  Gloven wier, denn k?nn so'n
Minsch duntaumalen woll wat taterich, oewergl?wsch, ungl?wsch, also
'abergl?ubisch' warden.
De Tw?lwen, de tw?lwen Daag tw?schen Wiehnachten un den'n 6. Dag in'n
Hartmaand (6. Jan.) s?nd de  stickenbalkend?ster (stockdunkel) Daag, un
m?nnigein siniert oewer Sp?ukels. Geister, Gespenster dr?ben ehr Unw?sen
tau Middennacht, un de Minschen m??ten "Verbote un Gebote " inholl'n, s?st
vert?rten 's sick mit de Gespenster.
De "Wilde J?ger" dr?w sien Unw?sen, de Drak (Drache) towte d?rch de Wulken,
Fru Gaud', Fru Waud' harden 12 Hund'n, dat wieren de "Tw?lwen".  Fru Waud
(Waur) wier ne l?tte dicke  Fru in Sommerkleeder.
De Ungl?w wier so grot, so hebben de Minschen sick up all'ns instellt.
Dat sponn'n Gorn m??t all an'n Hilligen Abend von de Haspel nahmen warden,
s?ss k?nn dat Fru Goden behexen.
All de Ger?ten f?r den'n Acker nienich buten stahn laten, s?ss w??r de
Acker unlannig (unfruchtbar). An'n 24.12.  truugte man sick nich, Water ut
den'n Sod (Brunnen) tau halen, m?nnigein n?hm ok den'n Sodschwengel mit
in't Huus. Bev?r de K?uh in de Tw?lwen wat tau suupen kr?gen, vers?pen's
ein'n Hund in ein Waterlock.
Man k?nn jedoch de Hexen den'n Taugang in dat Huus vermiesen, wenn man
einen niegen Bessen v?r dat Heck-Duur leggen deh.
Dat g?w oewer ok in de Tw?lwen gaude  Br??ke, de den'n Minschen
Tauvertrugen un em Gl?ck un Riekdaun schenkten.
Naja, un an so'n Sp?ukel w??r denn womoeglich gl?wt, dunnmals ja!
So k?nn'n Mann un Fru dat Gl?cksgorn  ne Fitz (eine Docke) unrecht in de
Niejohrsnacht spennen. De Mann m??t' dat uphaspeln un ... beid m??ten dat
splitterfadennaakt maken; un dat wier denn dat Tw?lwengorn, also dat
Gl?cksgorn. (Dat stell ick mi recht vergn?uglich v?r...)
Un wenn 'n Quarrb?cksen-Goern harr, denn steckte man so'n Schieteb?cks
stillswiegend dreimal d?rch dat Tw?lwengorn (Tw?lftengorn), dat s?ll helpen.
Un wenn ein so'n, ick segg/schriew dat mal up Hochd??tsch "Bettn?sser"
wier, denn w??r em de Fitz Tw?lwengorn an'n Dunnersdag ?m den'n Hals h?ngt.
Ja, m?nnigmal hadden de "b?sen Geister" ok wat Gaudet an sick.
Dat wier noch nich all'ns, man mi d?cht', dit langt woll.

Hm, giwwt dat annerswo ok in de Tw?lwen allerhand Kamedi...
Dat all' un mihr heff ick 1984 sammelt un upschr?wen in  "Von Niklas,
Ruhklas un Julklapp" un bi de URANIA v?rdragen un utsm?ckt mit Vertellers
un Gedichten un Wiehnachtsmusik up Keyboard un Treckfiedel...

Also wohrt jug in de Tw?lwen!
Ick hefft dat man blotsen gaud meint...

*          **Niejohr*
* Will Storm bi K?ll un Snei mit mi nu strieden?*
* Lop rin in't Land un finn ein anner Flagg,*
* mi is, as l?wte hier de ierste Dag,*
* sien weike Farw mit kloren Klang' strakt Lieden.*
* *
* Un in de Still finn ick den'n deipen Fr?den;*
* gah ick de ierste Spoor hier d?rch dat Land?*
* Kein Rauh dat Hart, kein Minsch tau'n fr?ndlich R?den,*
* s?uk wider nu ein Hus un Minschenhand.*
* *
* V?r mi kein Spoor, taudeckt de Ierd mit Snei,*
* mit Maut will ick den'n fr?mden Weg nu finn'n,*
* noch b?ter geiht't, fl?ut ick mien Melodei.*
* *
* Kiek noch mal ?m un wedder eins mien Sinn'n,*
* peer knasch betau, un ihr ick mi verseih,*
* drap ick bi K?ll ein von mien ollen Fr?nn'n.*
* *
* All' mien Gr?uten un best' W?nschen*
* f?r 2012! *
* *
* Hanne*

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Hello, Dawn!

Thanks for your inquiry above.

Not all subscribers can understand all languages used here on Lowlands-L.
Most of them just live with this. It is up to the individual to decide
whether or not not understanding all posts is too great a detriment.
Personally, I recommend creating a friends base here on the List,
consisting of people that help each other with translations or just
overviews.

The post you are inquiring about is indeed in a form of Low Saxon, namely
of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, an area that for several decades existed
east of the Iron Curtain. The author, Hannelore Hinz (hannehinz at t-online.de)
of Schwerin (Swerin) has published numerous works of different genres, is a
fount of knowledge about regional traditions, and in Northern Germany she
has the byname Treckfiedel Hanne ("Squeezebox Hanne"). Here is her
trilingual website: http://www.lowlands-l.net/hanne/

Naturally, Hannelore knows German besides Low Saxon. She began studying
English only recently.

Hanne's post about does not directly refer to your initial post under
"Traditions." It mentions a number of regional folk traditions connected
with the Christmas and New Year's season.

I hope this was at least partly helpful.

Best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan  2 19:32:23 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:32:23 -0800
Subject: "Traditions" 2012.01.02 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JAN.2012.113223.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: "Traditions" 2012.01.01 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]

Dear Ron and Dawn Work-MaKina!

I thinks this translator is useful:
http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT

Dawn Work-MaKina words made me thought-provoking. I have used this letter
for a word translator. I would prefer, I could alone find the reight words.
I really should attend a special English classes, where I can learn for the
formulation Lowlands list. But this is not possible. I will try if I can
call my English teacher a person who I regard Lowlands list which can help
an individual basis. Maybe I would have to work out a special word list in
order to even find a way.
Everything is possible. Please be patient. I will speak honestly acquired
language. But here I miss the dialogue.
I can only thank again our Ron.

With best regards.
Hanne, the Low German


Lieber Ron und Dawn Work-MaKina.

Ich denke, dieser ?bersetzer ist brauchbar (s. oben):

Dawn Work-MaKina Worte haben mich nachdenklich gestimmt. Ich habe f?r
dieses Schreiben einen Wort?bersetzer benutzt. Es w?re mir lieber, ich
k?nnte allein schon die richtigen W?rter finden. Ich m??te eigentlich einen
speziellen English-Unterricht besuchen, wo ich das Formulieren f?r
Lowlands-List lernen kann. Aber das ist hier nicht m?glich. Ich will
versuchen, ob mir mein Englisch-Lehrer eine Person nennen kann, die mir,
was Lowlands-List angeht, individuell helfen kann. Vielleicht m??te ich mir
eine spezielle Wortliste erarbeiten, um ?berhaupt einen Weg zu finden.
Alles ist m?glich. Bitte haben Sie noch etwas Geduld.Ich will eine ehrlich
erlernte Sprache sprechen. Mit fehlt aber hier der Dialog. - Ich kann nur
immer wieder unserem Ron danken.
Er ist mein Vorbild. (He is my .....? or *sich jemanden zum Vorbild nehmen *to
take someone as an example , also = Ron is my example.

Mit besten Gr??en.
Hanne die Plattdeutsche

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan  3 02:54:47 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:54:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.02 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JAN.2012.185447.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Dear Lowlanders,

Lately we have been mentioning phonological metathesis again, namely
triggered by the words *sporkel* and *sprokkel*. There are numerous cases
of metathesis amongst the Germanic languages, the Lowlands group included.

First of all, what are we talking about here?

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29):

*Metathesis* (English pronunciation:
/m??t???s?s/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English>;
from Greek ????-??-???, from
????-??<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduplication#Proto-Indo-European>-??-??
"I put in a different order": *Latin tr?nspositi?*) is the re-arranging of
sounds <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoneme> or
syllables<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllable>in a word, or of
words <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words> in a sentence. Most commonly it
refers to the switching of two or more contiguous sounds, known as *adjacent
metathesis*[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29#cite_note-Strazny-0>or
*local metathesis*:[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29#cite_note-1>

   - fo*li*age ? **fo*il*age
   - ca*val*ry ? **ca*lva*ry

Metathesis may also involve switching non-contiguous sounds, known as
*nonadjacent
metathesis*, *long-distance
metathesis*,[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29#cite_note-Strazny-0>or
*hyperthesis*:[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29#cite_note-2>

   - Latin pa*r*abo*l*a > Spanish pa*l*ab*r*a 'word'
   - Latin mi*r*acu*l*um > Spanish mi*l*ag*r*o 'miracle'

Many languages have words that show this phenomenon, and some use it as a
regular part of their grammar (e.g. the Fur
language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_language>).
The process of metathesis has altered the shape of many familiar words in
the English language <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language>, as
well.

The original form before metathesis changed may be deduced from older forms
of words in the language's lexicon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicon>,
or, if no forms are preserved, from phonological
reconstruction<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_reconstruction>
.
Within the context of *sporkel* and *sprokkel*, our Heiko mentioned his
child's "acts of metathesis." To further our understanding of this
phonological phenomenon, I really do believe that it behooves us to look at
child's language.

In actual fact, I wonder if what is at play here is a preference for more
"natural" or "primeval" syllable structures, and I wonder if this
preference is programmed in us (in the form of ease of pronunciation) and
at least in part accounts for cases of metathesis. In other words, certain
syllable structures are "more natural" and possibly more archaic than
otherstructures are perceived as being easiest to pronounce.

Among phonologists, much has been made in recent decades about primeval
syllable structure, and it has been postulated that the structure #CV# is
the mother of all syllable types. (C = consonant, V = vowel, # = syllable
boundary) To put it simply, *papa* would be more natural than *pap* or *ap*,
not to mention *arp*, *parp*, *palp*, *pamp, plap*, *plarp*, etc.

Little Jonah, my rabbi's 1+-year old son, tends to throw his arms up at
adults and say, "Puh!" ([p??]). I interpret this as a metathesized form of
"Up!" ([??p]). (In other words, he wants you to pick him up.) Would you
agree with this?

Do you have any further thoughts or inside into the phenomenon of
metathesis and "naturalness" of syllable structures?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan  3 03:55:49 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:55:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.02 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.2.JAN.2012.195549.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"
Beste Ron,

You wrote:

Little Jonah, my rabbi's 1+-year old son, tends to throw his arms up at
adults and say, "Puh!" ([p??]). I interpret this as a metathesized form of
"Up!" ([??p]). (In other words, he wants you to pick him up.) Would you
agree with this?

Do you have any further thoughts or inside into the phenomenon of
metathesis and "naturalness" of syllable structures?


On the level of children/babies, it is maybe also a matter of "mirroring"
sounds, rather than copying them. When you talk to him, and you say "u-p",
he reciprocates by first repeating the letter he heard last, his mind is
not (yet) focussed on remembering sounds in a premidated way and then
copying them. His response is more like an echo from the other side of the
valley. He's sending back what he heard last and wants to be some sort of
mirror of your sounds. Not a replica, but a mirror, because he knows he's
different. I think this sort of conversation taps into what we know as
"call and response" in blues and gospel. Just my two cents.

This reflection about a baby realising he is somebody else may match two
things I often heard: girls learn quicker how to speak + they exhibit
greater empathy...maybe one triggers the other.

Initially this habit sticks, and part of growing up is of course to learn
how to lose this behavior (bit comparable to learning the tenses, and then
notice there are strong verbs). For some it's just a lot more difficult to
unlearn than it is to learn.

Moreover, certain combinations are definitely favored above others, because
they hook better into previously acquired vocabulary, assimilation.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  4 19:11:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:11:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.04 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JAN.2012.111119.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 04 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language"


>From Heinrich Becker:

Is this a joke I got from Oregon - then it is a good one -  or does anybody
have serious informations of this matter?

*The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
will be the official language of the European Union rather than German,
which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English
spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in
plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c".. Sertainly, this will
make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in
favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one
less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f".. This will make words like
fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always
ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is
disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with
"z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining
"ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU
understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze
forst plas. *

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Humor

Hi, Heinrich!

This "joke" has been sent around for many years, if not decades, now. I
guess it sprang from anti-EU sentiments.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  4 19:18:49 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:18:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.04 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.4.JAN.2012.111849.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.02 (02) [EN]


Happy New Year!

Funny, our youngest son used to say "leh!" [lE] as a baby, so we told
eachother he was asking for milk, in French (lait).

I doubt though if "puh!" can be called metathesis from "up", why would P be
aspirated then?
In Dutch "puh!" is the word children use when sticking their tongue out, to
make fun of or ridiculize someone.
So maybe that's how the little rabbi's son is telling you what he thinks of
you  ;-)

Ingmar


From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Phonology

Dear Lowlanders,

Lately we have been mentioning phonological metathesis again, namely
triggered by the words sporkel and sprokkel. There are numerous cases of
metathesis amongst the Germanic languages, the Lowlands group included.

First of all, what are we talking about here?

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_%28linguistics%29):

Metathesis (English pronunciation: /m??t???s?s/; from Greek ????-??-???,
from ????-??-??-?? "I put in a different order": Latin tr?nspositi?) is the
re-arranging of sounds or syllables in a word, or of words in a sentence.
Most commonly it refers to the switching of two or more contiguous sounds,
known as adjacent metathesis[1] or local metathesis:[2]

foliage ? **foilage
cavalry ? **calvary
Metathesis may also involve switching non-contiguous sounds, known as
nonadjacent metathesis, long-distance metathesis,[1] or hyperthesis:[3]

Latin parabola > Spanish palabra 'word'
Latin miraculum > Spanish milagro 'miracle'
Many languages have words that show this phenomenon, and some use it as a
regular part of their grammar (e.g. the Fur language). The process of
metathesis has altered the shape of many familiar words in the English
language, as well.

The original form before metathesis changed may be deduced from older forms
of words in the language's lexicon, or, if no forms are preserved, from
phonological reconstruction.

Within the context of sporkel and sprokkel, our Heiko mentioned his child's
"acts of metathesis." To further our understanding of this phonological
phenomenon, I really do believe that it behooves us to look at child's
language.

In actual fact, I wonder if what is at play here is a preference for more
"natural" or "primeval" syllable structures, and I wonder if this
preference is programmed in us (in the form of ease of pronunciation) and
at least in part accounts for cases of metathesis. In other words, certain
syllable structures are "more natural" and possibly more archaic than
otherstructures are perceived as being easiest to pronounce.

Among phonologists, much has been made in recent decades about primeval
syllable structure, and it has been postulated that the structure #CV# is
the mother of all syllable types. (C = consonant, V = vowel, # = syllable
boundary) To put it simply, papa would be more natural than pap or ap, not
to mention arp, parp, palp, pamp, plap, plarp, etc.

Little Jonah, my rabbi's 1+-year old son, tends to throw his arms up at
adults and say, "Puh!" ([p??]). I interpret this as a metathesized form of
"Up!" ([??p]). (In other words, he wants you to pick him up.) Would you
agree with this?

Do you have any further thoughts or inside into the phenomenon of
metathesis and "naturalness" of syllable structures?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA**

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" [EN]

I think there may be a connection with what's called dyslexia and
metathesis. Our youngest son, now eight years old, has some difficulties
learning to read properly, the teacher thinks he may be dyslectic.
And in his speech, whether he's reading our just speaking,  metathesis
regularly occurs, especially in longer, difficult or 'learned' words. E.g.
 navigatie-systeem becomes nagivatie-styseem (car navigation system),
parkeerplaats becomes karpeerplaats (parking place) etc.
Nowadays, this kind of "mistakes" will be corrected in school of course,
but in times that people didn't go to school or even didn't write at all,
whole populations could speak that way. Especially when we realize that
there must have been hundreds of different languages spoken next to
eachother in areas where there are now only a few, and I guess in new
mother language learning processes, there will have occured a lot of
metathesis and other interesting features as well. A good example are the
creole languages, or the differences between the Romance languages and
dialects.

Ingmar

Ingmar

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan  5 19:18:22 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 11:18:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.05 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JAN.2012.111822.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.04 (02) [EN]


From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varietiess" [EN]

I think there may be a connection with what's called dyslexia and
metathesis. Our youngest son, now eight years old, has some difficulties
learning to read properly, the teacher thinks he may be dyslectic.
And in his speech, whether he's reading our just speaking,  metathesis
regularly occurs, especially in longer, difficult or 'learned' words. E.g.
 navigatie-systeem becomes nagivatie-styseem (car navigation system),
parkeerplaats becomes karpeerplaats (parking place) etc.
[...]

Hi,

This kind of  'speaking-mistakes' are quite common for children, and can
last til the 10th year.
This shouldn't be connected with dyslectic problems.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Phonology

Hallo Lowlanners,

Dat is je ein deip loten Thema. Ick heff mi so gaud as ick k?nn mit befat'.
'DUDEN 5 Das Fremdw?rterbuch' vermellt: *Metathese* u. *Metathesis* :
Lautumstellung
in einem Wort, auch bei Entlehnung in eine andere Sprache (z.B. Wepse
-Wespe, Born -Bronn)
.
Un denn heff ick noch dit funn':

http://www.multilingualarchive.com/ma/enwiki/de/Metathesis_(linguistics)#Metathesis_in_English

Un bi 'Wissen.de/Bildung' st?nn schr?wen: Umstellung eines Lautes innerhalb
eines Worts; h?ufig bei  *r**  *(z.B. Bo*r*n - B*r*unnen).

Ein Henwiesen up dat Bauk:
Phonetically Based Phonology EDITED BY Bruce  Hayes, Robert Kircher and
Donca Steriade, copyrighted Material  CAMBRIDGE, s. Seite 117
'The evolion of metathesis'  JULIETTE BLEVINS AND ANDREW GARRETT:

Dat k?nn oewer ok sien, ick vermell di hier Olle Kamell'n.

Hm, j?st tau rechten Tied noch 'n Gedanken, denn m??t dat je ok bi
Nedderd??tsch  so taugahn...?

An jug all' best' Gr?uten.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan  5 19:23:20 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 11:23:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.05 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.5.JAN.2012.112320.0800.>

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From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.04 (01) [EN]


From: Heinrich Becke*r* <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language"

>From Heinrich Becker:

Is this a joke I got from Oregon - then it is a good one -  or does anybody
have serious informations of this matter?

*The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
will be the official language of the European Union rather than German,
which was the other possibility. *

*As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English
spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in
plan that would become known as "Euro-English". *

*In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c".. Sertainly, this will
make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in
favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one
less letter.*

*There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f".. This will make words like
fotograf 20% shorter. *

*In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. *

*Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always
ben a deterent to akurate speling. *

*Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is
disgrasful and it should go away. *
* *
*By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with
"z" and "w" with "v". *

*During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining
"ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl. *

*Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU
understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru. *

*Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze
forst plas. *

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Humor

Hi, Heinrich!

This "joke" has been sent around for many years, if not decades, now. I
guess it sprang from anti-EU sentiments.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

Hi,

I'm sorry to say, but for me this makes perfect sense:
English books will become thinner, and so we save a lot of birch trees.
I think that Lowlands has to inform the Green Politicians of the
Euro-Parliament about it.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan  6 22:10:09 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:10:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.06 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JAN.2012.141009.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.05 (02) [EN]


Enyvay, I zink it's kvite funny!
Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Humor

Hi, Heinrich!

This "joke" has been sent around for many years, if not decades, now. I
guess it sprang from anti-EU sentiments.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

From: Theo Homan [log in to unmask]
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.04 (01) [EN]

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan  6 22:12:44 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:12:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.06 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JAN.2012.141244.0800.>

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From: Utz H.Woltmann uwoltmann at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.05 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]


 An?n 05.01.2012 20:18, schrev Hannelore Hinz ?ver *Metathese*:

denn m??t dat je ok bi Nedderd??tsch  so taugahn...?


Moin Hanne,*

*ik heff daar en Bispill to funnen:*

"d?rven/dr?ven *>d?rfen, bed?rfen, ben?tigen<

Im heute gebr?uchlichen Verb *d?rven / dr?ven *sind die Formen und
Bedeutungen zweier verschiedener ?lterer Verben zusammengefallen:
*d?rven *>d?rfen<
und *d?r(s)en* >wagen, trauen, sich (etwas) zutrauen<.

Bei dem Verb *d?rven *ist ein h?ufiger Wechsel von *v *und *b* zu
beobachten. Die *r*-Metathese (Umstellung des *r*-Lautes) ist weit
verbreitet. Gro?e regionale W?rterb?cher ordnen daher das Verb
unterschiedlich ein: *d?rben / d?rven* (Schleswig-Holstein/
Mecklenburg), *dr?ven / d?rven *(Hamburg/Niedersachsen), *dr?fen / d?ren *
(Ostfriesland).

Die Metathese *d?rven / dr?ffen *ist bei allen Formen ?blich.

                   Pr?sens                    Pr?teritum
Sg. 1. (ik)     d?rf / dr?ff                d?rf / dr?ff
      2. (du)    d?rfst / dr?ffst           d?rfst / dr?ffst
      3. (he)    d?rf / dr?ff                d?rf / dr?ff
Pl.  1. (wi)     d?rft / dr??ft              d?rven / dr?ffen
      2. (ji)      d?rft / dr??ft              d?rven / dr?ffen
      3. (se)    d?rft / dr??ft              d?rven / dr?ffen

Imperativ Sg. *d?rf / dr?ff   *Pl. *d?rft / dr??ft
*Part. Pr?t. *d?rft / dr?fft"*

Wolfgang Lindow / Dieter M?hn / Hermann Niebaum / Dieter Stellmacher / Hans
Taubken / Jan Wirrer: Niederdeutsche Grammatik, Verlag Schuster Leer, 1.
Auflage 1998, S. 110/111

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  7 04:45:35 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 20:45:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Humor" 2012.01.06 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.6.JAN.2012.204535.0800.>

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From: "Fonken, Gael M. [foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu]" <
foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu>
 Subject: "Humor" [EN]

From: Heinrich Becke*r* <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language"

>From Heinrich Becker:

Is this a joke I got from Oregon - then it is a good one -  or does anybody
have serious informations of this matter?

*The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby
Englishwill be the official language of the European Union rather than
German, which was the other possibility. *

*As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English
spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in
plan that would become known as "Euro-English".?*

 From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Humor
Hi, Heinrich!
This "joke" has been sent around for many years, if not decades, now. I
guess it sprang from anti-EU sentiments.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



Greetings all,

   I?m back on line listening in again.  Yes, this joke comes around the
block once and awhile? and I enjoy it every time as if I had not heard it
before. This time, I?m in the midst of reading a book about the on-going
orthography debates in Germany called *Spelling trouble?: language,
ideology and the reform of German
orthography<http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=4uCRUGuEU9cC&oi=fnd&pg=PR6&dq=%22Spelling+Trouble%22&ots=WlPDYg850E&sig=qGVT8D9_k9IK2_ms3mZL8UAo4RY>
,* 2005, which puts a new light on the joke.



  I begin to wonder *what finer-grained meaning this joke might have
had*at one time
*in the lowlands* since Low Saxon and other lowlander groups exist
someplace in between English and High German.  Not sure which side of this
supposed ?English-German? divide to imagine myself as a descendent of Platt
speakers from the lower Rhine-Dutch border.  Perhaps some of you know more
about the lingering issues here? Who exactly are the ones pushing for
establishing uniform spelling codes of any type. What happens to people in
the middle?



Gael Fonken
St. Cloud Minnesota, USA.
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  7 15:17:44 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 07:17:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.07 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.7.JAN.2012.071744.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.06 (02) [DE-NDS]

Moin Utz un Lowlanners.

Kumpelment Utz! Dat heff ick nich dacht, dacht' ick so.

Bi Perfesser Vo?lo heff ick ok wat funn'n:

*d?rben, *d?rwen d?rfen, d?rf, dr?ff, *dat dr?ff 'ck nich daun; dat dr?fst
du nich; dat d?rwt*
*nich witt bliben; dat dr?ft nich lang duern: hei hett sick sin Leder (sein
Lebtage)* *nich uttowen dr?fft. *Mnd. *d?rven*

*dr?tteihn, *d?rteihn; scherzhafter Ausruf: *Gott help uns all' d?rteihn* *s?d'
de P?tter, dor fel he mit 'n Dutzend P?tt von 'n B?hn; dr?tteihn is ne b?se
Tall, s?d' de P?tter, donn f?l he mit 'n Dutzend T?llers ut de Luk;
d?rteihn is de Galgenstall; Nummer  dr?tteihn *Abort;
Beteuerungsformel: *wenn dat nich wohr is, denn sleiht 't dr?tteihn; Anno
dr?tteihn *h?ufig f?r die Zeit der Befreiungskriege; Altersangabe: *een
l?tt M?ken von soone Jahre  dr?ttein.
*Am dreizehnten eines Monats d?rfen die Schiffe nicht auslaufen; wer  am
13. Dezember geboren ist, kann mehr sehen als andere Leute. -
Mnd. *d?rtein, dr?ttein.*

Ick s?uk noch nah mihr W??r.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  7 22:17:30 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:17:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2012.01.07 (02) [DE-NDS]
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L  "Humor" 2012.01.06 (03) [EN]

Un wedder heit dat "Hallo Lowlanners".

Fonken, Gael M.  wrote:

*Spelling trouble?: language, ideology and the reform of German orthography*
.

*Rechtschreibung Probleme: Sprache, Ideologie und die form der deutschen
Rechtschreibung*

http://www.neue-rechtschreibung.net/

Heit  dat nu: Ick snack platt *odder *ick snack Platt?

Un wat nu k?mmt, schriew ick up Hochd??tsch, denn k?nn dat womoeglich ein
von uns Maaten  lichter in dat  Ingelsch oewerdragen,  un taugliek is dat
ein Liehrstunn'.

*Sprechen Sie Deutsch oder deutsch?

*Geschrieben am 29. Mai 2009 Dagmar Jenner (Keine Kommentare)

Die Gro?- und Kleinschreibung von Sprachen bereitet paradoxerweise auch
Sprachprofis Probleme. Heute erhielt ich eine Bewerbung einer ?bersetzerin,
die angab, *deutsch-englisch-?bersetzerin *zu sein. Hier ist die
Kleinschreibung entschieden falsch, weil es sich um ein Substantiv handelt.
Sprachen als Adjektive wiederum werden kleingeschrieben: *Er hat einen
englischen Akzent. Sie tr?gt ihr Referat franz?sisch vor.
*Sobald eine Pr?position davor steht, liegt eine Substantivierung vor und
es wird gro?geschrieben: *Sie tr?gt ihr Referat auf Franz?sisch vor. Mit
Englisch kommt man heutzutage fast ?berall zurecht.
*Obwohl hier keine Pr?position vorliegt, schreibt man die Sprache auch in
folgendem Beispiel gro?, weil ein Possessivpronomen auch  auf eine
Substantivierung hinweist: *Mit meinem Italienisch ist es nicht weit her.
*?brigens sind in folgendem Beispiel beide M?glichkeiten erlaubt.
*Wir sprechen Franz?sisch./Wir sprechen franz?sisch.
*Erkl?rung: Hier kann man einerseits nach dem Substantiv fragen: *Welche
Sprache sprechen Sie? *Die Antwort ist dann ein gro?geschriebenes
Substantiv.
Wenn Sie diese Aussage als Antwort auf die Frage *Wie sprechen Sie? *verstehen,
k?nnen Sie kleinschreiben:  *Wir sprechen franz?sisch.
*Abschlie?end: Da es sich bei einer ?bersetzerin um ein Substantiv
handelt, wird nat?rlich auch das zusammengesetzte Substantiv
gro?geschrieben: *Deutsch-Englisch-?bersetzerin.
Ick snack platt  odder ick snack Platt.

**Wer zuletzt lacht, lacht am besten.*
*Who laughs last, laughs best.*
*
*Hanne*
*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  8 23:09:49 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:09:49 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.08 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.8.JAN.2012.150949.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 08 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

Beste Hannelore,

You wrote about metathesis:

Hm, j?st tau rechten Tied noch 'n Gedanken, denn m??t dat je ok bi
Nedderd??tsch  so taugahn...?


How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?

Plenty of Lowlands dialects realise something along the lines of "ga(r)s,
ge(r)s". The pair "gr?s, g?rs" already existed in Old English by the way,
metathesis is old and pretty universal. This is the kind of stuff language
architects love to straighten out. Maybe they were more active in Northern
Germany than elsewhere?

Regarding plant names, I just discovered that a huge database of Dutch
plantnames is now accessible online:

PLAND <http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/pland/>

According to the makers, it's the biggest in its sort (worldwide) and
contains everything that has been published since the early 19th century.
Mapping is also provided and the interface works really well. Moreover, all
extra user input is very much appreciated.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium
*
*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan  9 19:50:13 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 11:50:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JAN.2012.115013.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 09 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Luc and all!

How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?

Plenty of Lowlands dialects realise something along the lines of "ga(r)s,
ge(r)s". The pair "gr?s, g?rs" already existed in Old English by the way,
metathesis is old and pretty universal. This is the kind of stuff language
architects love to straighten out. Maybe they were more active in Northern
Germany than elsewhere?

Please allow me to get the ball rolling.

No, I am not aware of "grass" equivalents with metathesis in Low Saxon, but
I would not be too surprised if some dialects turned out to have such
forms. There appears to be no consistent metathesis rule (rV ~ Vr, etc.).
Such occurrences are sporadic.

However, you mentioning "grass" brings up another interesting phonological
phenomenon in Low Saxon, this one apparently being consistent.

The phonemic (i.e. underlying) form of the Low Saxon equivalent of "grass"
is /graz/. The vowel is short, and the final consonant undergoes devoicing:


   - /graz/ => [gras] *Gras *'grass', 'blade of grass'


Underlying voicedness of the final consonant is revealed in the plural
forms:


   - (/gr??z?/ >) => *Gr?s'* *~ Gr?s'* [gre??z] ~ [gr???z] (superlength) ~
   (/greez?r/ >) *Gr?ser* ~ *Gr?ser* [?gre?z?] ~ [?gr??z?] 'blades of grass'


In other words, the singular form has a short vowel while the plural forms
have a long (and in this case umlauted) vowel. above, this is a pattern;
e.g.:


   - singular: /hov/ => *Hoff* [h?f] 'court', 'yard', 'farm'
   plural: (/h??v?/ >) => *H?v'* [h???v] ~ [h???v] (superlength) ~
   (/h??v?n/ >) => *H?ven* [?h??vm?] ~ [?h??vm?] 'courts', 'yards', 'farms'


   - singular: /tog/ => *Tog* (~ *Toch*)* *[t??x] 'draw', 'procession',
   '(railway) train'
   plural: (/t??g?/ >) => *T??g'* ~ *T**?**g'* [t?????] ~ [t?????]
   (superlength) 'draws', 'processions', '(railway) trains'

Question:

   - It seems to be specific to cases of superlength. Is this so?

In the equivalent cases in southern-based Standard German pronunciation,
the vowel is long in all instances, although the orthography does not
indicate this:


   - singular: /graaz/ => [gr??s] *Gras *'grass', 'blade of grass'
   plural: /gr??zer/ => *Gr?ser* [?gre?z?] ~ [?gr??z?] 'blades of grass'
   - singular: /hoof/ => *Hof* [ho?f] 'court', 'yard', 'farm'
   plural: (/h??f?/ >) => *H?fe *[?h??f?] 'courts', 'yards', 'farms'
   - singular: /?uug/ => *Zug** *[??u?k] 'draw', 'procession', '(railway)
   train'
   plural: (/???g?/ >) => *Z**?ge* [???y?g?] 'draws', 'processions',
   '(railway) trains'

However, in northern-based Standard German, evidently due to Low Saxon
substrata, the singular forms tend to be treated as in Low Saxon:

   - singular: /graz/ => [gras] *Gras *'grass', 'blade of grass'
   plural: /gr??zer/ => *Gr?ser* [?gre?z?] ~ [?gr??z?] 'blades of grass'
   - singular: /?uug/ => *Zug** *[???x] 'draw', 'procession', '(railway)
   train'
   plural: (/???g?/ >) => *Z**?ge* [???y?g?] 'draws', 'processions',
   '(railway) trains'

Due to a different form on the phonemic level, this does not apply here:

   - singular: /hoof/ => *Hof* [ho?f] 'court', 'yard', 'farm'
   plural: (/h??f?/ >) => *H?fe *[?h??f?] 'courts', 'yards', 'farms'

Any observations, comments, insights?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan  9 23:12:26 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:12:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JAN.2012.151226.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 09 January 2012 - Volume 2
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.08 (01) [EN-NDS]

Hallo Luc un all' Lowlanners,

You wrote:

        How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?
        Wie spricht man "Gras" in Niederdeutsch?
        Woans snackt man "Gras" up Plattd??tsch?

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
*Gras, *?. Gres n.,
Sammelbezeichnung der Weide und Wiesenpflanzen.
Sprachliche Belege im eig. Sinne: gramen 'Gra?'.
*Grashalm: *Spier, Grasspier Pl.: Spieren

Hochdeutsch sprechen wir Gras [*gra:s*],
Up Plattd??tsch seggen wi ok Gras oewer so [*gras*], dat  *s *as* * *?*odder
*ss* snacken.*        *

Im bildl. Gebrauch ist der Graswuchs ein Zeichen f?r unbetretenen Boden,
daher die
sprw. Aussage von einem vielbegangenen Wege: *up 'n Weg, wo v?l gahn, wa?t
kein Gras;*
auf schwere Schl?ge: *wo de henlangt, wa?t in s?ben Johr keen Gras*.

FN (Flurnamen): *Grasbrauk, -hoff, -holm, -koppel, -kraug, -kul, -lock,
-muur, -uut, -weg, -wisch.*
Mnd. *gras*, *gres *n.

*Keep off the grass! *Betreten des Rasens verboten

IDIOMS: *You're reading too much into things again.*
                Du h?rst wieder das Gras wachsen.
                Du h?erst wedder dat Gras wassen.

                *We should first let the dust settle on that.*
                Dar?ber sollten wir erst Gras wachsen lassen.
                Dor will'n wi man ierst dat Gras oewer wassen laten.

                *The soldiers had no desire to bite the dust.*
                Die Soldaten hatte keine Lust, ins Gras zu bei?en.
                De Soldaaten harden kein Lust nich, in 't Gras tau bieten.


*So, nu heff ick de Wisch afmeiht (meiht).
*So, nun habe ich die Wiese gem?ht.*

*Best Gr?uten.
Hanne*
***
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 01:16:28 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:16:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JAN.2012.171628.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 09 January 2012 - Volume 03
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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

Beste Hanne en annere Leeglanners,

Thanks for clarifying the "grass"-situation in Low Saxon, with regards to
metathesis.

The following link explains the metathesis-situation in Dutch and German
pretty well:

Ausgew?hlte Schriften zur niederl?ndischen und deutschen Sprach- und ... -
Jan Goossens - Google
Boeken<http://books.google.be/books?id=Pu5nS6IfcVsC&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=metathese+gras+gers&source=bl&ots=149JDCZjWz&sig=1w3YZ34Io8nWl3Qj4qxlSIAYjbw&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=2nYLT-bNIIOD-waGx7yjBw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=metathese%20gras%20gers&f=false>

Apparently there has historically been a South-Western metathesis center,
radiating the promotion of this feature. Consequently numerous isoglosses
hit the language divide between Germanic and Romance. From West to East
(say from Dunkirk to Switzerland), one comes across the following pairs:


   - stroot - strosse (Kehle)
   - terden - treten
   - sport - sprosse
   - gers - gras
   - bord - brett
   - vors - frosch
   - borst - brust
   - kerstmis - christmess
   - bernen - brennen
   - dertien - dreizehn
   - dertig - dreissig
   - derde - dritte
   - dorsen - dreschen
   - vers - frisch
   - borst - brust (again)
   - gort - gr?tze
   - pers(en) - presse(n)
   - kers - kresse
   - korst - kruste
   - born - brunn
   - barsten - bresten


At first glance, it seems that Frisian (eg. "gers") rather joins the
South-West than Lower Saxony where methathesis doesn't seem to be very
productive. English is more of a mixed bag, having "board", "burn",
"third", "thirteen" and "thirty" on the one hand, but "christmas",
"breast", "thresh", "fresh" and "press" on the other. In Old English both
"gr?s" and "g?rs" were acceptable, just like Middle Dutch seemed to be
hesitating between "gras", "gars" and "gers".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Luc!

The following cases amongst the above can definitely be found in Low Saxon
of Germany:

   - *bord* - *brett *(*Boord ~ Bredd*) 'board', 'plank'
   - *borst *- brust (*Borst ~ Bost*) 'breast'
   - *dertien *- dreizehn (*derteihn ~ d?rteihn ~ dartein ~ dorteihn
*~*dotteihn ~ d?tteihn
   *) 'thirteen'
   - *dertig *- *dreissig *(*d?rtig ~ dortig **~ dottig** ~ dartig ~ drottig
   *) 'thirty'
   - derde - *dritte *(*dridde *~ *dr?dde*)
   - *dorsen *- dreschen (*d?rsen ~ d**?ssen*) 'to tresh'
   - *gort *- *gr?tze *(*Gr?tt ~ Gr**?tt ~ G**?rt ~ Gort*) 'grits', 'gruel'
   - kers - *kresse *(*Kress ~ Kassen*) 'cress'
   - *korst *- kruste (*K?rst ~ K**?ss*) 'crust'
   - *born *- brunn (*Born*) 'spring', 'source' (cf. "bourne", Scots *burn*)
   - *barsten *- bresten (*barsten ~ basten ~ bassen*) 'to burst'

As for Dutch dialects, does *kerst...* for "Christ ..." only occur in
compounds or also by itself?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 01:26:26 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:26:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Current events" 2012.01.09 (04) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <MON.9.JAN.2012.172626.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 09 January 2012 - Volume 04
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Current events

Mijn beste wensen aan alle mensen in de door overstromingen
getroffenen gebieden
van de Nederlandse provincie Groningen! Sterkte!

My best wishes to all people in the flood-stricken areas of the Netherlands
province of Groningen! Good luck!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 18:57:28 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:57:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.10 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JAN.2012.105728.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (03) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

I have been following this thread with great interest because it is a
particular interest of mine.
I would like to
emphasise one thing which tends to get lost in a written discussion -
which is that metathesis is originally an  audio/verbal activity. It is
so easy to look at written examples and just take the juxtaposition of
letters for granted - or even accept it as a pretty easily
understandable phenomenon.

However if you read the examples out loud and listen to the amazing
difference in sound that metathesis requires, you begin to ask yourself
just what is it in the brain and the auditory processes that allows
this to happen?

When talking about it with teachers I refer to the amazing " audio-
gymnastics" that the brain has to do in order to create 'ors' out of
'ros'. One has to imagine oneself illiterate to get the real force of
this ability (?) linguistic characteristic? error in processing (?) ...
what is going on and how would one best describe it.

That it continues to this day is clear when

a) listening to children learning to speak; my grand-daughter has come
up with some super examples; I shall have to start writing them down

b)locals in Northamptonshire still refer to Althorpe ( Earl Spencer's
place' ) as 'Altrup' whereas I am unaware of any of the Yorkshire /
North England's .... thorpes being treated like this..... though I
would love to hear some examples if it does happen.

We did discuss this years ago I remember and at the risk of repeating
something from the archives: I suggested then that there may well be a
link between methathesis and dyslexia - at least some forms of the
latter, as I am convinced that many conditions are brought together
under that same title ( for example: those people who benefit from
coloured reading glasses to bring 'dancing letters' or 'curved pages'
under control.)

best wishes

Heather
Worcester UK

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (03) [EN)

Meine Antwort auf:
From: R. F. Hahn
Subject: Phonology

Hallo Ron un ok all' Lowlanners,

ick sett noch wat hentau:

*. Brett *Pl. Br?d', Br?der, selt. Br?ders, Mnd. *bret n.
**. Brust *Bost, ?lt. Borst, Pl. B?st, Mnd. *borst
**. dreizehn *d?rteihn, dr?tteihn, Mnd. *d?rtein
**. drei?ig *d?rtig, dr?ttig, drittig, druchtich
*. drei?igste  *d?rtigst
*. dritte *dr?dd', dr?rr, dr?tt, dr?rrt, d?rde, Mnd. *d?rde, dr?dde
**. dreschen *d?schen, alt. d?rschen, trituare 'dorschen', Mnd. *d?rschen
. **Gr?tze** *Gr?tt, selten g?rke, ghorte, Mnd. *g?rke, gr?tte*
*. Kresse *Kre?,  Karse, Kerse, Kersse, Kar?,* *Mnd. *kerse
**. Kruste *K?st, Rinde bes. des Brotes, *'ene korste brodes', *Mnd. *korste
*aus lat. *erusta*
*. geboren *buren, boren, baren *vom mnd. beren: geb?ren
**. bersten, platzen *barsten, basten, ?lt. barsten, busten, bassen:
birschen (jagen), Mnd. *
    bersten, barsten

*Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Best Gr?uten.
Hanne
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 19:01:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:01:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.109 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.10.JAN.2012.110119.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [DE-NDS]

In Dutch we have a few expressions with "gras":
"ik kan het gras horen groeien" I can hear the grass growing = it's very
silent
"er geen gras over laten groeien" don't let the grass grow over it = you
start right away with something
"luisteren naar groeien van het gras" listen to the grass growing = to be
very lazy
"iemand het gras voor de voeten wegmaaien" to mow away the grass in front
of someones feet = to give someone no opportunity
"er schuilt een addertje onder het gras" there's a viper hiding under the
grass = there's a hidden, secret problem
"er groeit nou gras op zijn buik" grass is growing on his belly now = he's
dead and buried now
"het gras is altijd groener bij de buren / buurmans gras is altijd groener
" the neighnours' grass is always greener
"het gras is altijd groener aan de andere kant van de heuvel" the grass is
always greener at the other side of the hill
=it always seems if it's better somewhere else, that they have less
troubles somewhere else

A Low Saxon one (from the Netherlands):
"ik vraog ow toch ok neet, of ene koo gr?s vret?" I won't ask you either,
whether a cow eats grass? = I 'won't ask you for something obvious either?

Ingmar

From: Hannelore Hinz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.08 (01) [EN-NDS]

Hallo Luc un all' Lowlanners,

You wrote:

       How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?

       Wie spricht man "Gras" in Niederdeutsch?
       Woans snackt man "Gras" up Plattd??tsch?

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
Gras, ?. Gres n.,
Sammelbezeichnung der Weide und Wiesenpflanzen.
Sprachliche Belege im eig. Sinne: gramen 'Gra?'.
Grashalm: Spier, Grasspier Pl.: Spieren

Hochdeutsch sprechen wir Gras [gra:s],
Up Plattd??tsch seggen wi ok Gras oewer so [gras], dat  s as  ? odder ss
snacken.

Im bildl. Gebrauch ist der Graswuchs ein Zeichen f?r unbetretenen Boden,
daher die
sprw. Aussage von einem vielbegangenen Wege: up 'n Weg, wo v?l gahn, wa?t
kein Gras;
auf schwere Schl?ge: wo de henlangt, wa?t in s?ben Johr keen Gras.

FN (Flurnamen): Grasbrauk, -hoff, -holm, -koppel, -kraug, -kul, -lock,
-muur, -uut, -weg, -wisch.
Mnd. gras, gres n.

Keep off the grass! Betreten des Rasens verboten

IDIOMS: You're reading too much into things again.
               Du h?rst wieder das Gras wachsen.
               Du h?erst wedder dat Gras wassen.

               We should first let the dust settle on that.
               Dar?ber sollten wir erst Gras wachsen lassen.
               Dor will'n wi man ierst dat Gras oewer wassen laten.

               The soldiers had no desire to bite the dust.
               Die Soldaten hatte keine Lust, ins Gras zu bei?en.
               De Soldaaten harden kein Lust nich, in 't Gras tau bieten.

So, nu heff ick de Wisch afmeiht (meiht).
So, nun habe ich die Wiese gem?ht.

Best Gr?uten.
Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 10 19:04:13 2012
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Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:04:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.10 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [DE-NDS]

In Dutch we have a few expressions with "gras":
"ik kan het gras horen groeien" I can hear the grass growing = it's very
silent
"er geen gras over laten groeien" don't let the grass grow over it = you
start right away with something
"luisteren naar groeien van het gras" listen to the grass growing = to be
very lazy
"iemand het gras voor de voeten wegmaaien" to mow away the grass in front
of someones feet = to give someone no opportunity
"er schuilt een addertje onder het gras" there's a viper hiding under the
grass = there's a hidden, secret problem
"er groeit nou gras op zijn buik" grass is growing on his belly now = he's
dead and buried now
"het gras is altijd groener bij de buren / buurmans gras is altijd groener
" the neighnours' grass is always greener
"het gras is altijd groener aan de andere kant van de heuvel" the grass is
always greener at the other side of the hill
=it always seems if it's better somewhere else, that they have less
troubles somewhere else

A Low Saxon one (from the Netherlands):
"ik vraog ow toch ok neet, of ene koo gr?s vret?" I won't ask you either,
whether a cow eats grass? = I 'won't ask you for something obvious either?

Ingmar

From: Hannelore Hinz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.08 (01) [EN-NDS]

Hallo Luc un all' Lowlanners,

You wrote:

       How do you pronounce "grass" (E) in Low Saxon?

       Wie spricht man "Gras" in Niederdeutsch?
       Woans snackt man "Gras" up Plattd??tsch?

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
Gras, ?. Gres n.,
Sammelbezeichnung der Weide und Wiesenpflanzen.
Sprachliche Belege im eig. Sinne: gramen 'Gra?'.
Grashalm: Spier, Grasspier Pl.: Spieren

Hochdeutsch sprechen wir Gras [gra:s],
Up Plattd??tsch seggen wi ok Gras oewer so [gras], dat  s as  ? odder ss
snacken.

Im bildl. Gebrauch ist der Graswuchs ein Zeichen f?r unbetretenen Boden,
daher die
sprw. Aussage von einem vielbegangenen Wege: up 'n Weg, wo v?l gahn, wa?t
kein Gras;
auf schwere Schl?ge: wo de henlangt, wa?t in s?ben Johr keen Gras.

FN (Flurnamen): Grasbrauk, -hoff, -holm, -koppel, -kraug, -kul, -lock,
-muur, -uut, -weg, -wisch.
Mnd. gras, gres n.

Keep off the grass! Betreten des Rasens verboten

IDIOMS: You're reading too much into things again.
               Du h?rst wieder das Gras wachsen.
               Du h?erst wedder dat Gras wassen.

               We should first let the dust settle on that.
               Dar?ber sollten wir erst Gras wachsen lassen.
               Dor will'n wi man ierst dat Gras oewer wassen laten.

               The soldiers had no desire to bite the dust.
               Die Soldaten hatte keine Lust, ins Gras zu bei?en.
               De Soldaaten harden kein Lust nich, in 't Gras tau bieten.

So, nu heff ick de Wisch afmeiht (meiht).
So, nun habe ich die Wiese gem?ht.

Best Gr?uten.
Hanne
* *
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 11 21:05:12 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:05:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2012.130512.0800.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.109 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]

Funny, dear Ingmar, I have slightly different notions of what some of these
expressions mean. You write:

"ik kan het gras horen groeien" I can hear the grass growing = it's very
silent
"luisteren naar groeien van het gras" listen to the grass growing = to be
very lazy


Now what I learnt is: If you say "Er h?rt das Gras wachsen" or "Er kann das
Gras wachsen h?ren" then you mean "He is very attentive, he can perceive
what is practically inaudible/invisible, he knows in advance what nobody
else would have known" -- maybe even "He has second sight". *Sometimes*, if
said with a derisive undertone, you mean "he sees what is not there, he
fantasizes".

You write:
"ik vraog ow toch ok neet, of ene koo gr?s vret?" I won't ask you either,
whether a cow eats grass? = I 'won't ask you for something obvious either?

In this case you say "Ist der Papst katholisch?" This is a relatively new
idiom, I didn't hear ist in my childhood, but it seems perfectly logical.
"M?chtest du einen Schoko-Keks?" "Hey, ist der Papst katholisch?!" It is
just a strong form of "Yes".

Hartlich!

Marlou

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.01.09 (02) [DE-NDS]

In Dutch we have a few expressions with "gras":
"ik kan het gras horen groeien" I can hear the grass growing = it's very
silent
"er geen gras over laten groeien" don't let the grass grow over it = you
start right away with something
"luisteren naar groeien van het gras" listen to the grass growing = to be
very lazy
"iemand het gras voor de voeten wegmaaien" to mow away the grass in front
of someones feet = to give someone no opportunity
"er schuilt een addertje onder het gras" there's a viper hiding under the
grass = there's a hidden, secret problem
"er groeit nou gras op zijn buik" grass is growing on his belly now = he's
dead and buried now
"het gras is altijd groener bij de buren / buurmans gras is altijd groener
" the neighnours' grass is always greener
"het gras is altijd groener aan de andere kant van de heuvel" the grass is
always greener at the other side of the hill
=it always seems if it's better somewhere else, that they have less
troubles somewhere else

A Low Saxon one (from the Netherlands):
"ik vraog ow toch ok neet, of ene koo gr?s vret?" I won't ask you either,
whether a cow eats grass? = I 'won't ask you for something obvious either?
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 12 00:21:28 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:21:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2012.162128.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Brooks, Mark mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]

Marlou wrote: "Hey, ist der Papst katholisch?!" It is just a strong form of
"Yes".



I?ve heard that expression in English most all my life. I?m 61 now and live
in Texas. So, perhaps German borrowed it from English. We have another one
that more ?rustic.? It happens in the same context as the Pope question:
?Does a bear shit in the woods??



I?ve also heard a wag mix them, so that he replaces the bear with the Pope
;-). Pretty irreverent, but not unexpected from a primarily Protestant part
of the country (I grew up in Dallas).



About grass: We also have the grass being greener on the other side of the
fence. Another one that is probably more recent is: ?Your ass is grass, and
I?m the lawn mower.? Strangely, in everyday speech it has become shortened
to ?Your ass is grass? without the second part. So, if you?d never heard it
before, you?d be completely lost.



Regards,
Mark Brooks
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 12 19:03:14 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:03:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
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From: "Fonken, Gael M. [foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu]"
 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" or something else like it?

From: Brooks, Mark mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]


 Marlou wrote: "Hey, ist der Papst katholisch?!" It is just a strong form
of "Yes".



We have another one that more *?rustic.?* It happens in the same context as
the Pope question: ?Does a bear shit in the woods??

I?ve also heard a wag mix them, so that he replaces the bear with the Pope
;-). Pretty irreverent, but not unexpected from a primarily Protestant part
of the country (I grew up in Dallas).



Hi Mark and all,

   Your comments on Papal protocol in rural areas reminds me of a previous
pope who came from a more rustic background than our current one. One?s
abilities and sense-abilities seem linked to our local culture often.  My
question for you all is if there is a difference between the more visible
terms *?rustic?* and *?boorish?* and this new word I learned from
YouTube *?d?rp?
* which is a form of reggae supposedly arriving in London from Afrikaans
roots. I found it frustrating even to google *d?rp* because it
automatically gets rerouted to ?*drop?* reggae which is something very
different?



    Tons of fun tracing down all the shifts in meaning here.  It seems that
*d?rp reggae* was originally intended to invert the meaning of *d?rp *(and
Afrikaans itself) from this older rustic (drill to kill) base to a more
capable, critical, and ethically responsible image of self.  *But what
means d?rp to you*? Could someone translate or otherwise convey the meaning
that Ina Muller gives it? She?s a Platt speaker? curious lady.

   ? So then as lowlanders, maybe we should ask ?*Is the pope **d?rp*??



   - *3:30*  *Ina M?ller - D?rp Reggae *by elli29086428,423 views
   <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7921WiLVBM&feature=related>

?         *Ina Muller - Dorp Reggae
Lyrics<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dorp%20reggae&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweetslyrics.com%2F777611.Ina%2520Muller%2520-%2520Dorp%2520Reggae.html&ei=pe7XToeeEouGsgKi-sT8DQ&usg=AFQjCNHqGLr25w-tV4KkJs4BbK0dMFbwdQ>
** *www.sweetslyrics.com ? Artists starting with
I<http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.sweetslyrics.com/I.html&rct=j&sa=X&ei=pe7XToeeEouGsgKi-sT8DQ&ved=0CFIQ6QUoADAC&q=dorp+reggae&usg=AFQjCNGrNN-aQjAtYKJTfBEjcwUTcjsvJA>-30.
Juni 2010 ? Download Ina Muller (Original: Lemon Tree)Musik:

?         Het *dorp* instrumental karaoke - Dana
Winner<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dorp%20music&source=web&cd=41&ved=0CB8QFjAAOCg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.karaoke-version.com%2Fmp3-backingtrack%2Fdana-winner%2Fhet-dorp.html&ei=8u3XTvijOOyAsgLKrIDcDQ&usg=AFQjCNEI49EYELJfcNd-mI9NLXV-Rvsr2Q>

?         *Dorp* (band) - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorp_%28band%29>
?this is the Afrikaans band



Happy trails,

Gael



*Rustic:*

>From *r?s <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rus#Latin>** *(?the country?).

Latin:* r?sticus* *m.* (*feminine*
*r?stica<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rustica>
*, *neuter* *r?sticum <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rusticum>*);
*first<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_first_declension>
/second declension<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_second_declension>
*

   1. of the country <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/country>,
rural<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rural>,
   rustic <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rustic> [quotations ?]
   2.  (*figuratively <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/figuratively>*)
   unrefined <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unrefined>,
*boorish<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boorish>,
   *coarse <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coarse> [quotations ?]
   3.  (*substantive*) a farmer <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/farmer>,
   peasant <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/peasant>,
*rustic<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rustic>
   * [quotations ?]
   4.  (*substantive*,* figuratively<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/figuratively>
   *) a *boor <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boor>*

*boor <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boor> [EN] *From Dutch*
**boer<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boer#Dutch>
* (?peasant?).

   1. A peasant <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/peasant>.
   2. A Boer <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Boer>, white South
African<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/South_African>of
   Dutch <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dutch> or
Huguenot<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Huguenot>descent
   3. A yokel <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yokel>, country bumpkin,
   4. An uncultured <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/uncultured> person



But why is this different in *German* & *Dutch*?  I?m thinking you all have
already tackled this question? but
*Boor** **?1. **a drill <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/drill>*  From
Germanic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages>, cognate with
German bohren <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bohren#German> (?*to drill*?)
* *
----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
 Subject: LL "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]

Ja, Marlou un all' Fr?nn'n,

dat k?mmt ?mmer up an, woans de Snack seggt ward. Ein v?rher Ahnen, wat so
uptau k?mmt... usw..

Nu heff ick noch poor R?densorten oewer Gras.

Ein r?hriger Mensch:  *lett sick kein Gras wassen unner de Bein;
*die Schw?tzerin, die von Haus zu Haus l?uft: *lett kein Gras uppe Stein
wassen.

*Eine ungew?hnliche Geh?rsch?rfe wird ?bertreibend als die F?higkeit, Gras
wachsen zu h?ren, bezeichnet, diese Rda. wird in der Mda. auf eingebildete
und zur Schau getragene Schlauheit bezogen: *dei kann Grass wassen
h?ren *allgem.:
'he leth sick so klockwy? d?ncken . . ., alse wen he konde Gra?wassen
ho(o)ren, edder ene Flege konde ho(o)ren  an der Want hoesten unde
prusten'; verneint: *ick h?r *(h?rte) *keen Gras wassen *lief schnell fort;
 vom Tode auf dem Schlachtfelde zeugt das Bild *int Gras biten, *'ynt gra?
byten mo(o)ten'; als Sinnbild der Verg?nglichkeit: *he *(ein Kranker) *is
vergahn as Gras an 'n Tun.

*Im Tanzlied: *As ick hier v?r dissen was, Da wir hier nicks as Lof un Gras.

*Im Ausruf an den Kuckuck: *Kukuk, sett di in dat gr?une Gras, Tell min
Tietsl?ben af.

*Bauernregeln: *dat Gras, wat dat Schap an 'n iersten April hett, sall de
Kauh an 'n iersten Maidag hebben; wenn't Maidag r?gent, h?llt de Koppel
kein Gras.

*Grasland, Weide, Weidegerechtigkeit, so h?ufig bei Grundst?ckverleihungen:
'unum spacium graminum dictum graz' (Ro 1363).
..*tau Gras leggen *zu Weideland machen.

*grasaalig *unreif: *he k?mmt mi 'n b?ten grasaalig v?r; Grash??kt  *kleiner
Hecht; *Grasap *m. Gr?nschnabel, *Grasb?nk *Grabh?gel. Grasbick/Gr?sbick m.
das G?ssel im R?tsel.

Grasblaum f. eine Nelkenart 'Gra?blomen, Negelken'. Grasbodden m. mit Gras
bewachsener Erdboden.
Grasbuck m. Spottname f?r den G?rtner; Grasbuk m. kleiner Bauch; Grasd?ker
m. das G?ssel im R?tsel; *utseihn as 'n jungen Grasd?wel* verwildert,
mitgenommen; auch von einem Kind, das sich beim Spiel beschmutzt hat:* min
oll l?tt Grasd?wel; *Knabenbeteuerung:  *ick will Grasdeuwel sin, wenn dat
nich wohr is.

**gr?sen, *grasen, Gras fressen, weiden: *ik seh em gr?sen*; ?ft. von
gespenstischen Tieren: *de Kauh sall dor gr??st hebben; gr??t du all
wedder? *zum Gras fressenden Hund; *R?genbagen, lat ?wer gahn, Lat Swin un
K?uh nah 'n Gr?sen gahn; wenn de Katt graast, gifft 't R?gen*; wenn beim
Kegelspiel ein Pudel geworfen ist, hei?t es: *dee l?ppt hen, will grasen*;
auf die Frage *wo geiht 't *erfolgt die Antwort: *oh, ick heff mi so ?ben
d?rchgraast d?rch 'n Winter; grasen *Salat essen. Mnd.* grasen.

**Grasgoorden *m. Obstgarten - *grasgr?un : *grasgr?n; *grassengr?un;
*Rda.: ein Mensch von unbekannter Herkunft *is ut 'n Grashalm wussen, un de
Bull hem em nah 'n D?rp rinbr?llt.

**Grasjung' *m. ein Bursche, der eben schulentlassen ist;  *graskinig
*fruchtbar,
wachstumf?rdernd: *graskinig W?der*; *he s?ht graskinig ut *schlau; *Grasknipus
*Ente im R?tsel; *Graskopp *m. Beiname eines Mannes mit struppigem
Haarwuchs.

*Grasmussen *Pl. Schelmenst?cke: *hei hett Grasmussen in 'n Kopp, Grapps-,
Grippsmussen.

**Gras?s' *f. die um den Bindebaum geschlagene Schlinge *B?s'bomsch?rt*.

*grassaten *gahn, die Gassen m??ig  auf- und abgehen; studentenspr. aus
lat. *grassari* r?stig daherschreiten.

*Grassei? f. *Grassense.
*grassengr?un *grasgr?n.
*grassig *saftig gr?n.
*Gr?sung *Graswuchs
*graswassen *Adj. fruchtbar: *graswassen W?der; **
Graswraus'*, -wrausen, -wros',  -wrosen f. m. ausgestochenes Rasenst?ck,
erh?htes Rasenst?ck; *sett'te . . . sick up en Graswrausen*.
Lit.: Perfesser Vo?lo

Poor Snacks (Aphorismen), ?bertrag. ND. Hanne:
Leute, die das Gras wachsen h?ren, haben es meistens auch ges?t. *Peter
Frankenfeld*
*L??d, de dat Gras wassen h?ren, hebben 't mihrstens ok said't. (s?en :
seien, sei't, seig't, seid't)

*Wer im Sommer das Gras fri?t, hat im Winter kein Heu. *Norbert Bl?m
Wecker in'n Sommer dat Gras fr?ten deit, hett in'n Winter kein Heu* *nich.*

Heu machen kann schlie?lich jeder, wenn der Himmel Gras wachsen l??t. *Karl
Heinrich Waggerl*
*Na(h)gradens Heu maken kann jedwerein, wenn de H?ben (H?wen) Gras wassen
l?tt.*

Oh hah, nu is dat mihr worden, as ick v?rher dacht' heff.

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 13 04:39:11 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:39:11 -0800
Subject: LL "Lexicon" 2012.01.12 (02) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JAN.2012.203911.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Btw in Northern dialects of Low Saxon in the Netherlands, words like
"greshupper", "greswupper", "greshupker", "gr?swupper (Drenthe province),
"grashupper" , "grashipper" (Groningen province) are known. Obviously the
same word as English "grasshopper",
it means either that insect or a field cricket.

Is this word also known in German Low Saxon or would the Dutch Low Saxon
words be from neighbouring Frisian?
In Frisian we find "hipper" and "gershipper"

Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

The word is used on the German side of the border also, Ingmar:

*Grash?pper ~ Grashupper ~ Grashopper
~ Hauh?pper ~ Heuh?pper
~ Hauspringer ~ Heuspringer*

In German it is *Heuschrecke ~* *Grash?pfer ~ Heuh?pfer*, scientific *
Kurzf?hlerschrecke* ~ *Springschrecke*.

In Missingsch and Northern Standard German it tends to be traditionally *
Grash?pfer*, probably owing to Low Saxon strata.

Luxemburgish: *Heespr?nger
*Yiddish: ????????? (*grozgril*)
Dutch: *sprinkhaan*
Afrikaans: *sprinkaan**
*Danish: *gr?shoppe*
Norwegian: *gresshoppe*
Swedish: *gr?shoppa*

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 13 04:45:02 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:45:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (03) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <THU.12.JAN.2012.204502.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Gael,

An interesting take you're giving us. "'t D?rrep" means the center of town
here (opposed to "den buiten"...the outside). HIstorically this also meant
a very different legal status for those living within the limits of " 't
d?rrep " and those beyond. People even had to go to different courts when
they actually committed the same sort of crime. In a way, you were more
free when you had a farm outside the city walls, but when you did something
wrong you had less protection as well.

Regarding grass...ah, grass again ;=). Of course, in connection with
reggae, it's a different sort of grass. To a high extent, I truly think
grass is quintessential for the Lowlands. So far, there is no satisfying
Indo-European etymology for the word, plus the area where it's used is
pretty limited...therefore it's thought to be a loan from a substrate
language. Wouldn't surprise me.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: mike.keach at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Mark (I think) wrote:
" My question for you all is if there is a difference between the more
visible terms ?rustic? and ?boorish?.

Well, I think Mark was referring to the Dutch Boor. In English, Boorish
refers to a person that is pushy, heavy-handed, p'raps a bully. Rustic is
as he cited: uneducated, hayseed, earthy, et alia.

Boorish is a not-so-often used term these days. 'Twas popular from the 16th
- late 20th centuries. Just guessing that it stems from the singular
attitudes of feral pigs. [Here in Florida we deal with them yearly and they
are nasty and mean. AND: contrary to logic, are NOT good eating.].

Hope I'm not completely off base here. If so: Mea Culpa.

Alles beste, Mitanand!

~Mike [Keach] von Tampadorf
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Oh, ja, liebe Hanne, was wir vergessen haben: "Da w?chst kein Gras mehr" =
"This site is totally destroyed" (site can be figuratively too).

Dear Gael, "d?rp" means "village" in Platt. It is a noun, I never heard it
used as an adjective like in ?*Is the pope **d?rp*??. But english is much
more liberal with using nouns as adjectives, so maybe you have just set a
new trend or a new idiom :-)

As to myself, I am d?rp with all my heart!

Hartlich

Marlou

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 13 19:01:39 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:01:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JAN.2012.110139.0800.>

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From: Tom?s ? C?rthaigh cartyweb at hotmail.com
Subject: Resources

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/modern-trading-killing-off-barrow-boy-market-slang-102444812.html

Heres an interesting article on bond traders slang...

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

From: M.-L. Lessing
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.12 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Hallo Marlou un all' Lowlanners,

ick heff in mien Kinnertied mien Ferien ?mmer in Dorf Mecklenburg  <gro?e
Burg> (mnd, *mikilinburg) *bel?wt. Later as jung' *Butendiern**  bi einen
Grotburen ein Johr deint (deinen m??t); heff Binnen un mihr Buten mien
Arbeid dahn.
Un later (tau DDR-Tieden)* m??ten* wi Postler in de Kurn-un T?ffelaust up
'n Lann' bi de LPG-Buren helpen, un Kurn d?schen tau Nachten (21:00 -
07:00).
Tau halwen Nacht Mankkaakt?ten, un denn wedder rup up de D?schmaschin'
(Dreschmaschine).

*D?rp, *Pl. *D?rper *n. Dorf; zuweilen m.: *den D?rp dal; lang den
D?rp;*neben dem alten Pl.
*d?rpe* erscheint schon im Mnd. die Form *d?rpere*, so auch im Dat.
'D?rpern' (1545); *up den D?rpern *(Ro. 1742); doch h?lt sich die *r-*lose
Form bis zur Gegenwart: *up 'n D?rpen *
auf den D?rfern, d.h. auf dem Lande; formal f?llt damit ein allgem.
gebr?uchlicher Dat. Sg. *D?rpen *zusammen: *up 'n D?rpen *auf dem Dorfe,
auf dem Lande; *beid' ut einen D?rpen; ut 'n anner D?rpen; in 'n ganzen
D?rpen *(F. Reuter); *up unsen D?rpen *(STA.Friedl); die Sg.-Konstruktion *up
'n D?rpen *verdankt die Endung *-en  *dem gleichbedeuten *up 'n Lann' *aus
mnd. *up dem lande, *dessen -*nn'*, d.i. gel?ngtes *-n *als -*nden *aufgefa?t
wird;  daneben ist allgem. die Kurzform *D?rp *?blich: *ut 'n D?rp *aus dem
Dorfe; *in 'n D?rp *im Dorfe.

*d?rpsch *Adj. d?rfisch; meist substantiviert: *dei Hauw hadd doch en
D?rpschen kriegen k?nnt *(ein Einheimischer aus dem Dorfe, kein Fremder); *de
D?rpschen *Leute vom Lande;
*Butend?rp*: Au?endorf, fremdes Dorf,* de Butend?rpsch *der in einem
anderen Dorf Wohnende.
** Butendiern *f. Hofmagd im Gegensatz zum Hausm?dchen
Lit.: Perfesser Vo?lo

*Dorf: *Das *gemeingerm. *Wort *mhd., ahd.* dorf, *got.* ?aurp, *engl. *thorp,
*aisl. *?orp bezeichnet,
abgesehen vom *Got., *wo es "Acker" bedeutete, eine b?uerliche Siedlung,
vielfach auch einen Einzelhof. Verwandte W?rter wie *kymr. *tref
"Wohnung" *lit.
*trob? "Haus" und *lat.* trabs "Balken" machen eine Grundbedeutung
"Balkenbau, Haus" wahrscheinlich, die sich je nach der Siedlungsform
wandeln konnte. - Abl.: *d?rfisch *"b?urisch" (im 16. Jh. f?r *mhd.* *
d?rflich* (16. Jh.); *D?rfler *(18. Jh.)
Lit.: DUDEN 7

Hollt jug fuchtig!

Hanne
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 13 22:33:23 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:33:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (02) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JAN.2012.143323.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Neet allenig  Gotisch "thaurp" had ene andere betekenis as d?rp, ok 't
Freesche woord "terp" bed?dt wat anders, namelik "een k?nstmaetige h?vel in
't water woar at leu up woanen en bouwen k?nt".
Nou in disse tied is "terp" in Nederland 't standard-woord veur so een
woanh?vel, 't Freesch heff nou "doarp" veur "d?rp" uut 't Hollandsch "dorp"
oavern?men.

Not just Gothic "thaurp" had a different meaning from village, also the
frisian word "terp" means something else, i.e.  "an artificial mound that
people can live and farm on".
Nowadays "terp" is the standard Dutch word for such a mound, and Frisian
borrowed "doarp" for "village" from Dutch "dorp"

Ingmar

----------

From: "Fonken, Gael M. [foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu]"
 Subject: LL-L idiomatica

Luc wrote:

?*?D?rrep?* means the *center of town* here (opposed to "den buiten"...the
outside)? I truly think grass is quintessential for the Lowlands.?? and a
bunch of other very nice things.



Marlou wrote:

"*?d?rp?* means "village" in Platt.??and  ?english is much more liberal
with using nouns as adjectives, so maybe you have just set a new trend or a
new idiom??



Mike [Keach] wrote:

?*Boorish* refers to a person that is pushy, heavy-handed, p'raps a bully.
?Boorish is a not-so-often used term these days. 'Twas popular from the
16th - late 20th centuries. Just guessing that it stems from the singular
attitudes of *feral pigs*.?



Beste all of you,

    I?m so grateful for your input. It helps me focus on the link that *
Afrikaans* provides in the movement of new ideas through the Low Saxon
world web? and how YouTube is helping us share more deeply.  It takes a lot
of YouTube viewing to put all these links together, and perhaps more
knowledge of popular music trends than I have.  But I found Ina Muller
there because she cut a video titled Platt es Nicht Uncool. Then I found
this *D?rp Reggae* and traced it to London to *an Afrikaans artist* there
who spoke in an interview how his later videos were meant to invert the
stereotype in South Africa that Afrikaans is a colonizer?s language [linked
with the image of the Boers as *boorish*, violent lackeys of empire].  It
is the great humanitarian efforts of South African musicians that seems
more ?liberal? here in terms of how to use the term *d?rp.*  Perhaps there
is some general linguistic theory that speaks to how * adjectives* help us
to rethink the dominant meaning of *noun phrases*.  Not sure, but the
official border between them is thin.



  What I learn from my YouTube travels is *how ?small languages? link with
each other*? how they can be used to address global violence from an angle
that invites more friendly commentary.  I think this example would also
count in cultural studies as an ?*antipodal?* link.  But what I do know is
that *my Afrikaans speaking professor* said that *D?rp* meant *a very,
very, very small town*? the smallest there is.  This means to be or think *
D?rp-ly* is an option that arises from the *?grass roots?*? hah.  My family
is from Spellen which is very, very small compared to Dussel*dorf*, which
is also very small compared to Koln.   I get the point that grass grows
freely in these places.



   One more thing? I repeat my request for a quick gloss of * Ina Muller?s
lyrics*. That would really help (me).  This link is to the Platt version
plus a standard Hoch translation, but no English for poor displaced folks
like me.

*Ina Muller - Dorp Reggae
Lyrics<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dorp%20reggae&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweetslyrics.com%2F777611.Ina%2520Muller%2520-%2520Dorp%2520Reggae.html&ei=pe7XToeeEouGsgKi-sT8DQ&usg=AFQjCNHqGLr25w-tV4KkJs4BbK0dMFbwdQ>
** *www.sweetslyrics.com ? Juni 2010 ? Download Ina Muller (Original: *Lemon
Tree*)Musik:



Who did  *Lemon Tree*? What does it mean for Ina to ?copy it??

?hey! I found ?*Lemon Tree*? sung by
???????<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCDIt50hRDs&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PL41C7BB4675E667D4>
--links to a play list the lemon
tree<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgeKCCyhMm8&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PL3424CB0649CA7421>?25
videos



But I can?t find the original *Afrikaans band* yet?sorry, I?ll keep
looking?.



More YouTube links:

There?s also this other ?white? reggae band [from another part of
Germany?]?not sure what ?isches? means yet ? or what the book ?das grosse
lixikon? means in this video? ?*Etobasi feat.* Elijah - *Sie isches *by
EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>?not sure what
?isches? means yet



Here?s another Ina video: Unsere Besten im Norden - * Ina M?ller*: Portr?t
(IV)by InaMuellerSupport 9,371 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSv9sEGMX7c&feature=related>--10 minutes
interview

Also, it?s clear Ina kun snack English: *Ina M?ller - Dear Mr.
President*(Live bei Radio ...by RadioHamburgOnline 219,628 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaA6-wtw3d0&feature=relmfu>



More later,
Gael
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 14 07:16:59 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 23:16:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.13.JAN.2012.231659.0800.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (02) [EN-NDS]

Dear Gael, I think this can mean "Sie ist es" = "She is it". "Ische" as a
Name is a nickname of "Luise", originating in baby language I think. This
would make no sense here.

Hartlich!

Marlou

Gael wrote:

There?s also this other ?white? reggae band [from another part of
Germany?]?not sure what ?isches? means yet ? or what the book ?das grosse
lixikon? means in this video? ?*Etobasi feat.* Elijah - *Sie isches *by
EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>?not sure what
?isches? means yet

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Idiomatica

Gael and Marlou,

The language used in that music video appears to be an Allemanic variety
(which is well outside the Lowlands).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_Wikipedia

As Marlou said, *Sie isches* ['zi?????s] (Standard German *Sie ist es*)
means something like "She is *it*", "It's her", etc.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 15 00:24:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 16:24:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2012.01.14 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.14.JAN.2012.162419.0800.>

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From: Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (03) [EN]

Since I don't know how to change subject lines, etc. I'm going to beg the
indulgence of the List. In Marlou's post below, the first one, she mentions
the origin of nicknames in baby talk. I've always thought this but I've
never read a study of name origins that dealt specifically with this issue.
I'm thinking of the Peggy, Meg, etc. type nicknames.
Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
http://ideas.lang-learn.us/barrett.php

From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (02) [EN-NDS]

Dear Gael, I think this can mean "Sie ist es" = "She is it". "Ische" as a
Name is a nickname of "Luise", originating in baby language I think. This
would make no sense here.

Hartlich!

Marlou

Gael wrote:

There?s also this other ?white? reggae band [from another part of
Germany?]?not sure what ?isches? means yet ? or what the book ?das grosse
lixikon? means in this video? ?*Etobasi feat.* Elijah - *Sie isches *by
EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>?not sure what
?isches? means yet

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L  "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (03) [EN]

Best' Marlou un Lowlanners,

*Lis' *f. Elise, Luise; Dim.: 'dat Lie?ken'. Fritz Reuter (Ut mine
Stromtid) n?umte Luise *Lischen.
*So hett de Nam' *Lischen *(Lis'chen) mihr Warmnis. Ick holl dat nich f?r
ein' 'Spitznamen'
(nickname).
De Nam' Lischen is noch h?t  beg?ng'.
De Nam Ilse ward hier m?nnigmal "Ische" n?umt.

Hartlich.

*Hannchen

----------

*
From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.13 (03) [EN]

Dit is mi noch tau rechten Tied infollen...

*Lowiesch *und Abwandlungen f. Luise: *Lowis', Luiesch*; von schlecht
gebundener Garbe: *dat is Lowiesch ehr Meisterst?ck.

**Wieschen *Koseform von Luise, *Wising.* Bi de Post in'n Springersaal
(Telegrafie mit Springschreiber simplex un douplex) hebben wi Luise
G." *Wieschen"
*n?umt; sei wier 'ne 'v?rn?hm Fru' un  taugliek 'n Kumpel' un wull giern so
n?umt warden.

*Wising  *Koseform von Luise: *Wising, Lowischen, Wischen

*Lit.: Perfesser Vo?lo un ok ut mien eigen Sammelbauk.

Hann*ing*
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 15 08:36:27 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 00:36:27 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2012.01.14 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JAN.2012.003627.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

I wrote:

The word is used on the German side of the border also, Ingmar:

*Grash?pper ~ Grashupper ~ Grashopper*
* ~ Hauh?pper ~ Heuh?pper*
*~ Hauspringer ~ Heuspringer*

In German it is *Heuschrecke ~* *Grash?pfer ~ Heuh?pfer*, scientific *
Kurzf?hlerschrecke* ~ *Springschrecke*.

In Missingsch and Northern Standard German it tends to be traditionally *
Grash?pfer*, probably owing to Low Saxon strata.

Luxemburgish: *Heespr?nger*
Yiddish: ????????? (*grozgril*)
Dutch: *sprinkhaan*
Afrikaans: *sprinkaan*
* *Danish: *gr?shoppe*
Norwegian: *gresshoppe*
Swedish: *gr?shoppa*
*
*Scots has *gress *and *girse *for "grass", *gresslowper* and
*girselowper*for "grasshopper".

*Lowper* (cf. English "leaper") means "jumper" (cf. .*..springer* in some
languages' words for "grasshopper")

By the way, please note the peculiar Irish name for "grasshopper": *dreoil?n
teaspaigh* (literally "hot weather wren")! This corresponds to *dre?lan
teasbhuidh* in Scottish Gaelic.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 15 20:00:01 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:00:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2012.01.15 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JAN.2012.120001.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Daniel Prohaska ?daniel at ryan-prohaska.com?
Subject: Lexicon

In Cornish "we" have *grugen* [?gr?g?n] ~ [?g??g?n] or alternatively *culyek
reden* [?k?lj?k ?r?d?n] ~ [?k?lj?k ???d?n] "fern cock".
Dan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Dan!

Cornish *culyek reden* is consistent with Welsh *ceiliog rhedyn* and with
Breton *kilhog-raden*. So it may go way back to early Brythonic.

I wonder if the Cornish and Welsh words made it into Cornish and Welsh
English, either directly or as calques (loan translations).

The notion of "cock" is interesting, considering also that it is used in
Low Frankish words for "grasshopper" (e.g. *sprinkhaan*).

Note the wealth of Old English words for the same: *broc ~ g?rshoppa ~
g?rshoppe ~ stapa ~ g?rsstapa ~ wealdstapa ~ loppestre ~ l?pust ~
s?cgescieru*.

This is surpassed by Old German (mostly using words for "hay"): *hewigrimmila
~ hewiskrekko ~ hewispranga ~ stapfo ~ stapfol ~ hewistafil ~ hewistapfo ~
hewistapfol ~ houwistapfol ~ hewiskrek ~ hewiskrekkil ~ houwiskrekkil ~
houwiskrekko ~ houwispranga ~ kefur ~ kefura ~ kefuro ~ matoskrek ~ sprinko*
.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
in snowy Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Lexicon

Un ick antwuurt ok ...

*Heuschrecke* *Grash?pper *m., Pl. *Grash?ppers Syn Wrattenbieter *m. *Spez
*gr?ne Heuschrecke *Heuh?pper* m.
Lit.: Neues hochdeutsch-plattdeutsches W?rterbuch R. Herrmann-Winter

*Grash?pfer, *m., H?pper/Grash?pper/ -hupper/ -hopper/ Heuh?pper,  Hau-/
Heuspringer pl. -s; auch *Grille
*Lit.: Hd Pd W?rterbuch G?nter Harte . Johanna Harte

*Grash?pper *m. Grash?pfer, Feldgrille: *Grash?pper *Heuschrecke Syn. *
Heuh?pper

**Heuh?pper *m. gr?ne Heuschrecke, Feldgrille, gilt f?r das Hauptgebiet; im
Westen ?berwiegt *Heuspringer, *vereinzelt Kreis Sch?nberg, Kreis Wismar,
Kreis Schwerin, Kreis Hagenow, Ludwigslust begegnet *Grash?pper.
*Kinder, die sich mit einem scharfen Gegenstand geschnitten hatten, griffen
sich im Sommer einen *Heuspringer*, hielten ihn ?ber die Wunde bis er
ausgespruckt hatte und riefen: *Heuh?pper, bring mi ?l, ?l bring mi,
Heuh?pper; *sie setzten sich das Tierchen auch auf die Hand und
sagten: *Heuh?pper,
Heuh?pper, giff mi Kraft, S?s rit ick dinen l?tten K?pping af.

**Heuspringer*, ?. -sprink, Pl. -*en *m. wie -*h?pper*: locusta 'ein
Houwsprincke', 'Howsprincken'; *Hoowsprincken, Heuspringers; Heuspringer *
gryllus.
In der Wundbehandlung wie *-h?pper *mit den Anrufen: *Heuspringer, giff mi
Zapp, Dat dat Lock wedder b?ter ward; *gegen Warzen: *Heuspringer, giff mi
Sapp, Bit mi ok min Wratten af*; Fieber kann man auf eine kleine
Heuschrecke ?bertragen, die in ein St?ck Papier mit einer Formel gewickelt
um den Hals getragen wird; ?bertr. auf ?berm?tigen Menschen: 'welcke
lusts?ke de eigenkooppische Hoowsprincken vor neine S?nde rekenen';
munteres Kleinkind: *l?tt Heuspringer*; ein Pferd vor ?bermut hoch springt.
Syn. und Verbreitung s. *Heuh?pper. *Mnd. *hoisprinke *m.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

*Oh wie sch?n ist es im Heu,
lieblich ist der Duft,
und die Lerche singt dabei,
hoch aus blauer Luft.

*Autor: H. L?ns ?
*
*Hier is idel S?nnschien.
*
*Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 16 00:18:58 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:18:58 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2012.01.15 (02) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JAN.2012.161858.0800.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2012.01.15 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]


Dear all, I asked a friend from S?doldenburg how a Grasshopper was called
in S?dollnborger Platt, and this is what he says:

 Huppstaopel of Kunstaopel of Staopelken;
staopeln: s. stappen = stapfen
hupp: s. huppen of h?pken = h?pfen

Hartlich!

Marlou

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 16 06:28:42 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:28:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.15 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.15.JAN.2012.222842.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: "Fonken, Gael M. [foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu]"
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Marlou wrote:

Dear Gael, I think this can mean "Sie ist es" = "She is it". "Ische" as a
Name is a nickname of "Luise", originating in baby language I think. This
would make no sense here.



Ron wrote:

The language used in that music video appears to be an Allemanic variety
(which is well outside the Lowlands).

 My original question: ?*Elijah *- *Sie isch-----es** *by
EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>?not sure what
?isches? means.



Beste LL folks,

    It seems the answer was in the video [@30 seconds where two street
signs converge]: *?Sie isch es? oder  ?Sie?  [she?s it?.or?. she]* which
seems to reflect opposite choices of *how* best to live?.(*who* best to
live with)? I like the video because of it leads to scenes that include
their children ? so the choice of one?s sexual partner is grounded in
family life and with open respectful relations with people of other races.
On the whole it is a positive message.  That other *?**dorp**?* South
African band in London had no such grounding and reflects a lot of anger.
I?m curious here how *YouTube* gives space for both types of music and how
both are responses made by language minorities where local identities are
focused on. Yes Ron, this Euro-reggae is not from the lowlands. In the
*Interview
*Hype TV, Jamaica with Elijah
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krTzP_2EDUQ&feature=related>-- at the 4thminute,
he says he is half *Italian* and half *Schwyzerd??tsch*.  It?s this
linguistically mixed heritage that attracts him to Reggae.



    But it is *Ina Muller* who uses the term *d?rp* to describe this
dynamic *in locally-meaningful terms*.  She is able to combine this
positive *mixed-race reggae theme* with the darker London smalltown *?dorp?
politics* to produce a distinctively upbeat *progressive* AND yet still *
morally-grounded* vision for society. She also seems to be actively living
this vision in a more consistent way. Perhaps as reflected in the 1st video
here: YouTube Mix for Ina
M?ller<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcCIepoC8Gk&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=AVGxdCwVVULXdG5J7zydA-YlsIw-4KhAaU>
.  Her linguistically-sophisticated politics is also reflected in her
more *mature
audiences* (older people gathered in more upscale places) as well as her
official *interviews of other people* from the lowlands, Frisians, etc? For
her to post a video called ?*Platt is nich uncool
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtVxMxfvozo&feature=BFa&list=AVGxdCwVVULXdG5J7zydA-YlsIw-4KhAaU&lf=list_related>
*? is quite significant? But who I am to say this when I can?t understand
what she is saying in these videos?  I have returned to studying German
after my Platt grandfather closed down when I tried to use it to speak with
him over 20 years ago.



   For now though, can someone give me a few more clues?  Is the
word/concept of *d?rp* related to a certain capability among *lowlanders to
mix together more ?harmoniously.*? There certainly seems to be less tension
here than with Afrikaans music arising from South Africa. What gets
depicted in Elijah?s schweiz reggae also seems to emerge from a more
abstract *(big city)* base. There seems to be more opportunity in the
lowlands to get reconnected with the land?Is that it? ? that
*d?rp**ishen*are more likely to mix with other
* d?rp**ishen* and *to notice and honor the indigenous base underneath
without idealizing it*.



Is this so?

What else do I need to think about?

Gael



Links and listener comments for three ?minority language? bands:

*Schwizer Reggae vom feinste *

*Etobasi feat.* *Elijah** *- *Sie isch es *by EtobasiOfficial21,502 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPX0RNl7qO8&feature=related>?the words *Sie
isch es* are in the video!! on the street sign

*More of his songs **?**ELIJAH - SIE ISCH W?G by shigimigi 418,253 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxmzSAgG-W4&feature=related>*

*                                     **?**DO GOOD IN LIFE - ELIJAH
(OFFICIAL VIDEO)by elijahch 29,897 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3ri5LhmRRo&feature=related>*-in Jamaican
English

*Elijah* *Interview *Hype TV, Jamaica  by elijahch 1,134 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krTzP_2EDUQ&feature=related>--Jun, 2011?very
nice discussion of *his mixed language heritage*

?*Schweiz*.... - meine erste Liebe! Yeees!!!

I swear the? god ich hatte wundervolle Urlaube in den Bergen :)? HippeldieHop
<http://www.youtube.com/user/HippeldieHop>1 year ago

?dash doch sonen riddim vomne acoustic track woni vode wailers gh?rt
ha?(odr erri mi:S),

be sho die ganz am sueche , weissen echt ?ppe. thx :D  detroitchecker
<http://www.youtube.com/user/detroitchecker>1 year ago

?Ich bin Deutscher *und versteh kein**?** Wort Oo*? Blo0dySnowman
<http://www.youtube.com/user/Blo0dySnowman>1 month ago

?Ich studiere deutsch schon seit drei Jahren (und lerne soooooo lange ;) )
und *kann euch kaum verstehen* XD

?*Schwyzert??tsch*? ist aber? 'ne sch?ne Sprache und jetzt will ich sie
lernen :) Und Lied GEIL :D?* *sepus <http://www.youtube.com/user/sepus>years
ago**

?swiss reage FTW!! grues us? ?schtriich ,i bin ? *verlaufene
schwiizer*?* *laridaridari
<http://www.youtube.com/user/laridaridari>1 year ago

* *

*Another Euro-Reggae group
**?**Phenomden<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGSZbwqqt7I&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PLAFC71E8CEBA0CEA5>
*?17 videos?this seems a bit *more violent*, less cultural?

                                                       and ?Phenomden -
Stah Daby reezer82 644,224 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGSZbwqqt7I&feature=related>

?hey *schweiz*.. geile musik :).. find eicha sproch is foi geil :D..

schweiz is hoid afoch des beste? nochbalond wos ?sterreich hod.. respekt
aus ?sterreich?* *grafcm <http://www.youtube.com/user/grafcm>2 years ago

?das ist *Bayrisch*? und kein *Pseudoschweitzerdeutsch* ;)? huabamomo
<http://www.youtube.com/user/huabamomo>1 month ago

* *

Links to the Afrikaans *dorp* band in London:

*dorp - interview <http://dorp%20-%20interview/>*
www.rock.co.za/amuzine/interviews/*dorp*_three.html<http://www.rock.co.za/amuzine/interviews/dorp_three.html>
<http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Z0_QMoytBIEJ:www.rock.co.za/amuzine/interviews/dorp_three.html+dorp+pieter+bezuidenhout&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us>


*Sugar:* [with Pieter Bezuidenhout ? lead vocalist]

*The name Dorp* creates an impression of *an Afrikaans smalltown
mentality*which, of course, isn't what the band's about.

*Pieter:* Yes, Dorp is really such *a kak name*. I mean, who would call
their band Dorp?

There's this poem we have:

*"Twee koeksusters sit oopmond en staar
               En vra mekaar,
               Hoekom Dorp, dis so 'n kak naam.
               En 'n huur later kon hul steeds
               Nie verstaan,
               Dat 'n woord hoef nie by sy betekenis
               Te blystaan."*

We are trying to create *a negative image* with the name because *people
don't want to be involved* with the implications of the name, but *the joke
is on them* because it *represents us all and reflects on us all*.

*Sugar:* The name hasn't turned people off at all so presumably it's had
the desired effect.

*Pieter:* Exactly. It creates *a negative interest* and that creates a
curiosity. People think this band can't be that dumb to call their band
that!

*Sugar:* *Koos Kombuis** *was one of* **the first artists to alter people's
perceptions of Afrikaans being the language of the oppressor. *

*Pieter:* Well, we don't have any Afrikaans songs but (that trend) has
allowed bands like Valiant Swart and Wonderboom to *use Afrikaans names*.
You also don't have to play the Johnny Clegg type of music that people
expect to come out of South Africa either. It just has to have *a South
African identity*. We do listen to overseas stuff but we don't have to copy
it.

*Sugar:* As a band what do you listen to?

*Pieter:* We're all into ska, funk and punk but we have our own favourites
and from this we have managed to find *our own style*. We do keep an ear on
what's happening out there, so there has been a change from our first album
to our second. You *don't have to copy* but you must *keep up*. There is a
big movement towards *dance music* these days with the raves, so we don't
go for too many ballads. Our music is mostly up-tempo. Our lyrics still
have something to say without being too profound. People can catch on to
lyrics even while they're dancing. When people dance to our music it
creates an energy that feeds back into the band.



Contrasted with the more politically active Afrikaans musician:

*Koos Kombuis** **--*Interviewed in London by saffarazzi 3,105 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxazCrR2bzY&feature=related> Jul 7, 2008

Awesome cool interview with this Legend of SA Rock=[starts at 1:20min]=A brief
history of? his career straight from the horse's mouth and a wonderful
glimpse of his persona and hopeful optimism. Enjoyed listening to KK's
views of London and South Africa. Very well done!

Koos Kombuis - *Reconciliation day* by kamikazekonijn 5,831 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDth8roll_4&feature=related>



Interview on Koos Kombuis - *Reconciliation Day* - South Africa by Rouvanne
19,083 views <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4767zdCgdq0&feature=related>--
It is utter blasphemy that the ANC took Geloftedag, which is a sacred holy
day for the Boervolk, and was acknowledged as? such by the NP government,
and turned it into this BS "reconciliation day". That's like going to
Israel and making Passover some "reconciliation day" for the Palestinians!
The Marxist ANC is a failure. *therightperspective
<http://www.youtube.com/user/therightperspective>*years ago  ?Response
video: Geloftedag: Day of the Vow by *therightperspective* 2,648 views
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U-1bgRVMGY&feature=watch_response>

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi, Gael!

In Germany?even in Low Saxon ("Low German"), which nowadays is usesd
primarily in rural settings?German *Dorf* and Low Saxon *D?rp* (a cognate
of English "-thorp" and -thrup") can within certain contexts have a
pejorative meaning. It can connote simple-mindedness and other such
supposed attributes of villagers and small town folks.

*He k?mmt vun'n D**?rpen *can simply mean "He's from a village/small town,"
or it can mean "He isn't exactly sophisticated."

Similarly, *D?rper* and *D?rpsl**?d'* can simply mean "villager(s)" or
"small town folk," or it can have a similarly derogatory meaning.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 16 17:39:46 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:39:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.16 (01) [NL]
Message-ID: <MON.16.JAN.2012.093946.0800.>

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From: Roland Desnerck roland.desnerck at telenet.be
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.11 (01) [EN]

Beste Laaglanders,

Ook Oostende in West-Vlaanderen kent dergelijke uitdrukkingen voor LUI ZIJN:

Hj' is 't gas an 't groene sjhildern
Hij schildert het gras groen.

Hje z?t lege zakn r?chte.
Hij zet lege zakken recht.

Hje sload hie buuln up 't woater.
Hij slaat builen op het water.

Hj' is 't plafong van den hof an 't witn.
Hij wit de zoldering van de tuin.

Toetnoasteki,

Roland Desnerck
Rogierlaan 25
8400 0ostende

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 16 21:34:15 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:34:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.16 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.16.JAN.2012.133415.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2012.01.15 (03) [EN]

Hi Gael

Towards the end of your last contribution to this strain you say:    For
now though, can someone give me a few more clues?  Is the word/concept of *
d?rp* related to a certain capability among *lowlanders to mix together
more ?harmoniously.*?

I can clearly understand where you are coming from. I am also the
granddaughter in a family that lived in the countryside and spoke ?Plat? at
home. (In my case ?Twents? ? one of the Low Saxon dialects of the Eastern
Netherlands). I did not grow up in that part of the country, but in one of
the large cities of the West. I also experienced the difference between the
two ways of life as almost mutually exclusive. The one in Almelo was
warmer, funkier and ?more together? than that in Utrecht, which I
considered up-tight.  In the country side people knew each other better and
did not consider each other a threat. There was lots of humor, lots of
laughter. Maybe that comes from living closer to the land. If you are
living in natural surroundings and with nature, it seems that you do not
have to keep a distance from your surroundings and life becomes more
?whole? (for lack of a better word). Even now, when I leave the city I
automatically become more happy in my skin.

As for the word ?dorps?; It is all in the eyes of the beholder.  You can
look at it from the outside and depending on your attitude use it
derisively; like ?those simpletons?, or like in my case with longing for
the connection. On the other hand, one can be a teenager, living in the
area, and resent that closeness.  He or she would be looking  forward to
the noise and the frenetic rhythm of the city.



As far as the music goes. I once spent 4 month in Switzerland and I could
recognize the off-beat between living there and in the rest of the world.

So ?Swiss Regae? is not a mutually exclusive terminology..

Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 18 01:02:02 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:02:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.17 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2012.170202.0800.>

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 L O W L A N D S - L - 17 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Utz H.Woltmann uwoltmann at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2012.01.17 [EN]

January 17th is a special day for all the apple trees: In England there is
an old tradition of wassailing the apple trees. The word wassail (waes-hal)
seems to be close related to our NDS wees (ween / wesen, EN = to be) and
heel (EN = well / whole).

http://www.bbc.com/travel/blog/20120113-wassailing-the-old-english-apple-tree

Best regards

Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Utz, folks,

I wonder if there is any connection between the mentioned English wassailing
of apple trees tradition and the Jewish tradition of Tu BiShevat (??? ?????,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_Bishvat).

Tu BiShevat is celebrated on the 15th (???) day of the Hebrew month of
Shevat (???). Depending on the year, this corresponds to various dates of
the Western calendar; last year it was on January 19, and this year it will
be on February 8. So the general timing matches that of the English
tradition.

By-names for this holiday include "New Year of the Trees" and "Birthday of
the Trees". It marks the reawakening of nature (according to the Israeli
climate). Ceremonies include planting and blessing of trees, often with an
emphasis on fruit trees. (Fruit trees are considered almost sacred in
Judaism, and their destruction is prohibited.) Tu BiShevat meals tend to
include dried and pickled fruit as well as almonds and other types of nuts.

Also, it would be interesting to know if the English tradition is a remnant
of a more widely spread European or Eurasian tradition.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 18 01:32:28 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:32:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.17 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2012.173228.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonolgy

Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by some Scots words with *scl... *in which the /s-/ or the
/-k-/ seem to be intrusive. I wonder if we can make sense of this somehow.

Examples:

   - *Intrusive s?*
   - *sclammer* 'clamber'
      - *sclammer* 'clamor'
      - *sclim* 'climb'


   - *Intrusive k?*
   - *sclice* 'slice' [Medieval French *esclicier*!]
      - *sclidder ~ slidder* 'slither'
      - *sclate ~ slate* 'slate' [Medieval French *esclat*!]
      - *sclender ~ sclinner* 'slender' [Medieval French *esclendre*!]
      - *scly *'slide'
      - *sclype ~ slype* 'slap'
      - *sklent ~ slent* 'slant'


   - *spl- > skl-?**
   *
      - *sklinter* 'splinter'

What do you think is going on where Medieval French does not account for
the formations?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (about to be snowed in again ...)

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 18 21:20:35 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:20:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.18 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2012.132035.0800.>

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From: Andy andy at scots-online.org
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.17 (02) [EN]

R. F. Hahn wrote:

 I am intrigued by some Scots words with scl... in which the /s-/ or the
> /-k-/ seem to be intrusive. I wonder if we can make sense of this somehow.
>

 Examples:
>

 Intrusive s?
>

 sclammer 'clamber'
> sclammer 'clamor'
> sclim 'climb'
>

 Intrusive k?
>

 sclice 'slice' [Medieval French esclicier!]
> sclidder ~ slidder 'slither'
> sclate ~ slate 'slate' [Medieval French esclat!]
> sclender ~ sclinner 'slender' [Medieval French esclendre!]
> scly 'slide'
> sclype ~ slype 'slap'
> sklent ~ slent 'slant'
>

 spl- > skl-?
>

 sklinter 'splinter'
>

 What do you think is going on where Medieval French does not account for
> the formations?
>

The prothetic (intrusive) s is most frequently prefixed to words begining
with /k, p, t/ and occasionally /l/ and /m/.
also spatch 'patch', spink 'pink', stramp 'tramp', smush 'mush'.

Perhaps some influence from Norse cf. shoot and skeet, shirt and skirt,
ship and skip etc.

The intrusive k, where Medieval French does not account for the /skl/, may
be modifications by analogy with words that have etymological /skl/,
perhaps reinforced by the /kl/ to /skl/ above.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.17 (02) [EN]

Hope you are not snowed in too bad, Ron...

About the Scots sclusters, I have my own little theory:

Old Anglosaxon sc- became something like sh- in Scots, as in English, at
least in some cases,
e.g. when a front vowel followed.
As the cluster scr- became shr-, the similar cluster sl- became scl-

About this parallell of sl- with scr-: in Dutch it's not possible too say
sr- , must be schr- [sxr].
In Dutch, many people even say Schri Lanka with intrusive ch [x] -> [sxri].
In German that would be schr- [SR], and in German, one can not say sl-, it
must be schl- [Sl].

Later the Vikings influenced Scots and sh- was replaced back by sk- again,
parallell to the many
Scandinavian words were borrowed into Scots and English with sk/sc  instead
of sh:
scream, scrape, scuttle, sky, skim, skittish  etc.

But in Scots, shr- and shl- were both restored as scr-, scl-, so even old
sl- became scl- via shl-.
In your examples, all the words with scl- have a front vowel, maybe that
was important for sl-
to become shl- as well (influence of Celtic slenderness?)

Just by 2 eurocents.

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonolgy

Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by some Scots words with scl... in which the /s-/ or the
/-k-/ seem to be intrusive. I wonder if we can make sense of this somehow.

Examples:

Intrusive s?

sclammer 'clamber'
sclammer 'clamor'
sclim 'climb'

Intrusive k?

sclice 'slice' [Medieval French esclicier!]

sclidder ~ slidder 'slither'
sclate ~ slate 'slate' [Medieval French esclat!]
sclender ~ sclinner 'slender' [Medieval French esclendre!]
scly 'slide'
sclype ~ slype 'slap'
sklent ~ slent 'slant'

spl- > skl-?

sklinter 'splinter'

What do you think is going on where Medieval French does not account for
the formations?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (about to be snowed in again ...)


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 18 21:23:55 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:23:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2012.01.19 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2012.132355.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.17 (01) [EN]

Best' Lowlanners.

Bi uns is de Dag Appelbom (Der Tag des Apfelbaums - 13. September) an 'n
13.  Dag in'n Harwstmand un dat weit womoeglich keinein.

http://www.festtagsgedichte.de/jahreszeitliches/der-tag/des-apfelbaums---13-september.htm
*FN. *

*Apfelbaum **(mhd. *apfelboum, f?r die alte *germ. *Benennung *mhd.*apfalter,
*ahd.* affoltra, *aeng. *apulder, *aisl. *apaldr.
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Appelbom *m. Apfelbaum, pirus malus, spielt im Volksglauben eine Rolle:
wird einem jungen Apfelbaum seine erste Frucht gestohlen, so hat er keine
Art; er wird stets reichlich Frucht tragen, wenn man die ersten ?pfel, die
er tr?gt, in einen gro?en Sack pfl?ckt; bei der Obsternte mu? mindestens
ein Apfel (der *Dr?g- *oder *Saatappel*) am Baum bleiben, sonst tr?gt er
nicht wieder; an einen schlecht tragenden Apfelbaum bindet man Steine und
spricht dabei: 'Wenn du nicht willst ?pfel tragen, sollt (sollt steht hier
so) du Steine tragen'. Appelbom/*Awtbom; *besonders in der magischen
Krankheitsbehandlung wirksam:
Kranke soll man bei Sonnenaufgang unter einen Apfelbaum tragen; auf ihn
?bertr?gt man die Krankheit, indem man einen Zweig in die Hand nimmt und
spricht: *Appelbom, ick klag di, De Gicht plagt mi,Ick bed' di s' an Un gah
dorvan*; andererorts soll nur eine Frau dem Apfelbaum ihr Leid *anklagen*,
der Mann dagegen einen Birnbaum; ferner soll der Ap felbaum den Anblick der
Ostersonne vermitteln, wenn man einen Eimer Wasser unter ihn setzt; in
Hagenow-Moraas wurde fr?her eine Glocke im Apfelbaum gel?utet, wenn jem.
beerdigt wurde;  tr?stende  Redensart zum Kinde: *dor *(auf der Stelle, wo
das Kind hingefallen ist)  *sall ok 'n groten Appelbom up wassen.
*Apfeldokter m. Apfeldoktor, Scherzname f?r den G?rtner, der die Apfelb?ume
pflegt und veredelt; appeld?mlich Adj. ?u?erst d?mlich; Appeldruw m. gleich
*Druwappel *Traubenapfel, h?ufig als Kosenamen f?r ein kleines Kind;
Appeld?neken Name der Kr?te im Tiergespr?ch; Appelduurn m. der wilde
Aofelbaum, pirus malus; FN. (Flurname): *Appeldorn.*
*appeldwalsch *(hat nichts mit dem Apfel zu tun): Adj. sehr albern, ganz
t?richt, eine Doppelbildung aus *abelsch *(albern) und dem
gleichbedeutenden *dwalsch.*
Lit.: Perfesser Vo?lo

Dat is oewer noch nich all'ns oewer den'n Appel.

Nu b?n ick up  'n Smack kamen un ?t 'n  Boskop (Boskoop, nach dem niederl.
Ort Boskoop).

So as ?mmer.

Hanne

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: 2 . richtige Antwort. Re: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.17 (01) [EN]

Am 18.01.2012 12:09, schrieb Hannelore Hinz:

From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.01.17 (01) [EN]

Best' Lowlanners.

Bi uns is de Dag Appelbom (Der Tag des Apfelbaums - 13. September) an 'n
13.  Dag in'n Harwstmand un dat weit womoeglich keinein.

http://www.festtagsgedichte.de/jahreszeitliches/der-tag/des-apfelbaums---13-september.htm


*Apfelbaum **(mhd. *apfelboum, f?r die alte *germ. *Benennung *mhd.*apfalter,
*ahd.* affoltra, *aeng. *apulder, *aisl. *apaldr.
Lit.: DUDEN 7

*Appelbom *m. Apfelbaum, pirus malus, spielt im Volksglauben eine Rolle:
wird einem jungen Apfelbaum seine erste Frucht gestohlen, so hat er keine
Art; er wird stets reichlich Frucht tragen, wenn man die ersten ?pfel, die
er tr?gt, in einen gro?en Sack pfl?ckt; bei der Obsternte mu? mindestens
ein Apfel (der *Dr?g- *oder *Saatappel*) am Baum bleiben, sonst tr?gt er
nicht wieder; an einen schlecht tragenden Apfelbaum bindet man Steine und
spricht dabei: 'Wenn du nicht willst ?pfel tragen, sollt (sollt steht hier
so) du Steine tragen'. Appelbom/*Awtbom; *besonders in der magischen
Krankheitsbehandlung wirksam:
Kranke soll man bei Sonnenaufgang unter einen Apfelbaum tragen; auf ihn
?bertr?gt man die Krankheit, indem man einen Zweig in die Hand nimmt und
spricht: *Appelbom, ick klag di, De Gicht plagt mi,Ick bed' di s' an Un gah
dorvan*; andererorts soll nur eine Frau dem Apfelbaum ihr Leid *anklagen*,
der Mann dagegen einen Birnbaum; ferner soll der Ap felbaum den Anblick der
Ostersonne vermitteln, wenn man einen Eimer Wasser unter ihn setzt; in
Hagenow-Moraas wurde fr?her eine Glocke im Apfelbaum gel?utet, wenn jem.
beerdigt wurde;  tr?stende  Redensart zum Kinde: *dor *(auf der Stelle, wo
das Kind hingefallen ist)  *sall ok 'n groten Appelbom up wassen.
*Apfeldokter m. Apfeldoktor, Scherzname f?r den G?rtner, der die Apfelb?ume
pflegt und veredelt; appeld?mlich Adj. ?u?erst d?mlich; Appeldruw m. gleich
*Druwappel *Traubenapfel, h?ufig als Kosenamen f?r ein kleines Kind;
Appeld?neken Name der Kr?te im Tiergespr?ch; Appelduurn m. der wilde
Aofelbaum, pirus malus;

    FN. (Flurname): *Appeldorn.*
*
*
*appeldwalsch *(hat nichts mit dem Apfel zu tun): Adj. sehr albern, ganz
t?richt, eine Doppelbildung aus *abelsch *(albern) und dem
gleichbedeutenden *dwalsch.*
Lit.: Perfesser Vo?lo

Dat is oewer noch nich all'ns oewer den'n Appel.

Nu b?n ick up  'n Smack kamen un ?t 'n  Boskop (Boskoop, nach dem niederl.
Ort Boskoop).

So as ?mmer.

Hanne


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 19 19:40:53 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:40:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2012.01.19 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2012.114053.0800.>

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From: Thorsten Filter oike at gmx.de
Subject: Low German Syntax

Goden Dag,

ik wull fragen, wat een de nakamen Settels so bruken kann odder wat de
"unplattd??tsch" s?nd. Dat k?mmt mi hier nich up'e W?rd' up an, de s?nd
woll verscheden. Wat ik weten wull is, wat een "wat daan hebben willen"
bruken kunn.

1. He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben.

2. Se wull de sleten Butend?r utwesselt hebben.

3. Se will de tochigen Finstern afdicht't hebben.

Besten Dank v?raf!

Thorsten Filter
Veikvitz/R?gen

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 20 04:46:41 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:46:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2012.01.19 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2012.204641.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Beste Thorsten,

Du schreevst:

ik wull fragen, wat een de nakamen Settels so bruken kann odder wat de
"unplattd??tsch" s?nd. Dat k?mmt mi hier nich up'e W?rd' up an, de s?nd
woll verscheden. Wat ik weten wull is, wat een "wat daan hebben willen"
bruken kunn.

1. He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben.

2. Se wull de sleten Butend?r utwesselt hebben.

3. Se will de tochigen Finstern afdicht't hebben.

Ik w??r dat up annere Aard un Wies' seggen:

   1. He wull, dat se sien Auto wascht/wuschen.
   2. He wull, dat se sien Auto wascht/wuschen d??n.
   3. He wull, dat sien Auto wascht/wuschen w??r.

Man "He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben." klingt ook akzeptabel.

   1. Se wull, dat de sletene Butend??r utwesselt w??r.

Ook hier klingt "Se wull de sletene Butend??r utwesselt hebben." mehr or
minn akzeptabel.

   1. Se will, dat de tochigen Finstern afdichtt w??rn.

Un, ja, " Se will de tochigen Finstern afdichtt hebben." w??r ik wull
akzepteern.

Mit fr?ndliche Gr?tens uut 't versneete Seattle, Amerika.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

From: Thorsten Filter oike at gmx.de
Subject: Low German Syntax

Goden Dag,

ik wull fragen, wat een de nakamen Settels so bruken kann odder wat de
"unplattd??tsch" s?nd. Dat k?mmt mi hier nich up'e W?rd' up an, de s?nd
woll verscheden. Wat ik weten wull is, wat een "wat daan hebben willen"
bruken kunn.

1. He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben.

2. Se wull de sleten Butend?r utwesselt hebben.

3. Se will de tochigen Finstern afdicht't hebben.

Besten Dank v?raf!

Thorsten Filter
Veikvitz/R?gen

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 20 15:18:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:18:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2012.01.20 (01) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2012.071819.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 20 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Low German Syntax

Best' Thorsten un Lowlanners,

ick heff h?t ierst Tied, up dit "Subject" wat tau vermell'n.

*waschen *wie im Hd. Hd.: Pr?s. *wasch, wascht *(lautvereinfachende
Endung), *wascht, waschen*; Pr?t. stark, fr?her *wusch; *gel?ufig
*w?sch *(RITT.
J. G. C. Ritter, Grammatik der mecklenburgisch-plattdeutschen Mundart.
Rostock und Schwerin 1832.)

Wi t?uben je ?mmer noch up dat niege Bauk 'Plattdeutsch- hochdeutsches
W?rterbuch
f?r Vorpommern'.
Liekers kann man ok ein Oog smieten up/in dat Bauk
'Plattdeutch-hochdeutsches W?rterbuch f?r den
mecklenburgisch-vorpommerschen Sprachraum'.

Mien Idol (Vorbild) Perfesser Vo?lo.

Also b?ter so:  He wull sien Auto wascht hebben.
                         He wull, dat sien Auto wascht ward.
                         S?ll he sien Auto waschen laten?
                         Ja, sien Auto m?t wascht warden.

 Dat Anner is mi tau Hochd??tsch dacht. Is man blot ein Oewersetten.

*Wasch, W?sch* Egentlich gellt dat Waschen man blot f?r *de W?sch' waschen*;
*bi uns is h?t grot Wasch*.

John Brinckman sien Riemel *Grot Wasch *vertellt oewer Waschen von ein'n
Sl?ngel. In'n f?ften Riemel heit dat "... nu wasch wi eens rasch di un
knasch di, min Soehn,
dat Water is frisch uten Born!"

*utwesseln *auswechseln: *Balken utwesseln; ick heff Geld
utwesselt.*Plattd??tsch is doch ein Sprak in Biller, dat vermiss ick
hier bi all'
Texten. (Na ja, so-la-la)

*afdichten *abdichten, dicht machen, *meist von Schiffen*: *een Schipp
afdichten.*

*dicht *dicht, eng zusammenhaltend, fest, *undurchl?ssig*.

Se will de tochigen Finstern dicht hebben.

'dicht' hett v?l Bed?den: *de Sak dicht tau maken *(sie endg?ltig zu
regeln); *de Fri dicht maken *die Verlobung feiern; eine Frau, die mehrere
Sch?rzen ?bereinander gebunden hat, fragt man *wist woll ne Fri dicht
maken, *d.h. du willst wohl Freiwerber spielen? -
*dicht hollen *undurchl?ssig sein; bildl. verschweigen, nicht nachsagen; *dee
*(Schw?tzer) *h?llt nich dicht; dee is nich ganz dicht *von einem
lungenkranken Pferd; *dee is nich dicht baben *er ist verr?ckt, *dee is
nich dicht an 'n R?ggen *ist diebisch, tr?gt gern etwas fort; *ick b?n
hinnen dicht *habe nichts zu bef?rchten, sagt der letzte Kegelspieler, der
seine Gegner zu ?berholen hofft.

Dim.* **dichting;  dichting bi *nahe bei.
Zss.: *pott-, spunt-, waterdicht.
*Mnd. *dicht

*Hm, so k?nn dat ok heiten "Se will de tochigen Finstern waterdicht
hebben." (Ok stormdicht usw.)

Best' Gr?uten un ?mmer an'n Ball bliewen f?r uns' leiw' Plattd??tsch.

Hannelore Hinz

(Hier hett dat ok sniet.)

----------

From: list at marcusbuck.org
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2012.01.19 (01) [NDS]

From: Thorsten Filter oike at gmx.de
> Subject: Low German Syntax
>

 ik wull fragen, wat een de nakamen Settels so bruken kann odder wat de
> "unplattd??tsch" s?nd. Dat k?mmt mi hier nich up'e W?rd' up an, de s?nd
> woll verscheden. Wat ik weten wull is, wat een "wat daan hebben willen"
> bruken kunn.
>
> 1. He wull sien Auto wuschen/wascht hebben.
>

Bi Google B?ker kannst to'n Bispeel na "wull * hebben" s?ken. Denn kriggst
allens, wo de W??r "wull" un "hebben" in v?rkaamt un wo noch wat
twischensteiht (Google B?ker bruuk ik f?r de S??k, dat dor de ganzen Texten
rutfallt, de h?digendaags von "Nich-Mehr-So-Richtig-Moderspr
aaklers" schreven warrt).

Bi mien S??k is rutkamen, dat "wull + Objekt + PPP + hebben" v?r allen f?r
den Konjunktiv bruukt warrt:
"Herr Inspektor, ick wull Sei b?den hebben, ob ick h??t nich 'n b?ten na
min'n Ollen gahn k?nn?" (Herr Inspektor, ich w?rde sie gerne bitten, ob ich
heute nich ein bisschen zu meinem Alten gehen k?nnte?)
"Wenn de Saak klaar west weer, wull ik ehr mitbr?cht hebben." (Wenn die
Sache klar gewesen w?re, h?tte ich sie mitgebracht.)

Da is ja nich dat, wat du meenst.

De eenzige Steed, de ik funnen heff, de dat so bruukt, as du dat meenst:
"Vull Erwartung und vull Dank grellen sei na dit Bild, ?wer Hermann sin
Stolz wull nicks schenkt hebben" (1886, <
http://books.google.de/books?id=PDpnEUx5ouAC&q=%22wull+*+hebben%22&dq=%22wull+*+hebben%22&hl=de&sa=X&ei=N3oZT9DqGo6BhQfIoNm2DA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBDgo
>)

"nichts geschenkt haben wollen" is ja nu ok so'n Phraas f?r sik, dat gellt
also villicht nich veel.

Wat mi angeiht, meen ik, dat de Funnen in de Literatur (de Nich-Funnen) dor
op hend??dt, dat dat op Plattd??tsch normalerwies so nich bruukt warrt.

Op de anner Sied mutt een liekers seggen, dat dat en Form is, gegen de ut
grammatische Sicht nix gegensnackt.

"He wull dat nich wohr hebben" kummt in de Literatur fakener v?r. "nich
wohr" is en Egenschop von "dat", j?stso as "wuschen" en Egenschop von
"Auto" is. Wenn wi dat as "Substantiv + wull + Objekt + Egenschop + hebben"
opl??st, denn passt dat also.

Marcus Buck

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 23 19:00:15 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:00:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2012.01.23 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JAN.2012.110015.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 23 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Roger Thijs rogerthijs at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L Events

I have been distributing this message about Brussels largely this Sunday.
The settlement got a Belgian name, but was rather (low?) German.
Because of my accent they asked me if I was German over there.
One finds also a Hamburg in the area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg,_Illinois
Regards
Roger

Please help Brussels, IL, with rebuilding St. Mary?s Roman Catholic Church,
burned out completely on last Christmas Eve.
Brussels is a small village, North of St Louis, MO, lost and squeezed
between the Mississippi and the Illinois rivers. Except for a long detour
from the North it is only accessible by ferries.
No doubt it will be extremely difficult for this small community to find
the funding for a restoration.
Father Moliter from Brussels Belgium was the first resident priest in this
community around 1852.  I hope many people from Brussels and Belgium will
help these people in the spirit of the the ?ketje? who did it before.
I add a couple of pictures I made today in Brussels, as well as a pdf file
with some info from the internet. I?m just a Belgian momentarily for
business in St. Louis and I?m sending this only in a spirit of sympathy.
Pse verify yourself the reliability of the receivers of your help. The
village is quite poorly developed, I did not find any gas station and at
the local restaurant, the Wittmond Hotel, though a US recognized historic
place, they only accept cash, no credit cards.
Thanks and regards,

Roger Thijs,
Euro-Support, Inc., Wilmington DE, Lille France and Steenokkerzeel, Belgium
posting from Brentwood, Missouri


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 24 01:17:55 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:17:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2012.01.23 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.23.JAN.2012.171755.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 23 January 2012 - Volume 02
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From: "Ultonia Communications" <info at ultonia.com>
Subject: New Publication

Dear Members,

Lowlanders may be interested in this forthcoming publication:

https://www.createspace.com/3762414

This publication promises to be the first "Reference Grammar" of any
variety of Scots. Taking Ulster Scots as its focus, it runs through the
structure and syntax of the written language, combining both literature and
modern usage to distinguish between registers and to provide
recommendations for a regular written version aimed both at translators of
formal documents and creative writers of prose.

Grammar is often an overlooked part of minority language development, with
the focus often placed on vocabulary and phonology. This book aims to
correct this not just by providing a full overview of Ulster Scots, but
also providing notes on links to other languages and dialects (primarily
Germanic).

It is hoped the book will be available across North America and Western
Europe by mid-2012.

Warmest regards,

Ian James Parsley
Newtownabbey, Northern Ireland

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Hi, Ian! It's great to hear from you again.

Congratulations on the forthcoming publication of your reference grammar! I
feel excited about it and can't wait to peruse it.

When the time comes, I will add references to our Scots resources list (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/sco.php) and will also list the book in our
Lowlands-L Shops (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php).

Best wishes for this enterprise!

Regards to all, and ???? (Mandarin:* G?ngx? f?c?i*, Hokkien: *Kiong-h?
hoat-ch?i,* Cantonese: *Gung1** hei2** faat3** coi4*, Hakka: *Kung Hii Fatt
Choi*) for Chinese New Year (??)! I am including all of you that celebrate
it, namely all Koreans (?? *Seollal*), Japanese (??* Sh?gatsu*), Vietnamese
(*T?t*), Mongolians (?????? ??? / ????? ????* Tsagaan Sar*) and Tibetans (
?????? *lo-gsar/Losar*). May the Year of the Dragon be a good year for us
all!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 25 02:02:50 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:02:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2012.01.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.24.JAN.2012.180250.0800.>

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From: Mike Morgan mwmbombay at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2012.01.23 (02) [EN]

Not sure what is meant by

> the first "Reference Grammar" of any variety of Scots
>
but Philip Robinson's *Ulster-Scots Grammar* was first published in 1997
and a revised edition was issued in 2007. AND, it sure meets MY criteria
for what a reference grammar should be...

http://www.ulsterscotslanguage.com/en/books/reference-books/ulster-scots-a-grammar-of-the-traditional-written-and-spoken-language/

Still, we welcome a SECOND reference grammar (and a third or fourth as well)

And I join R/R in wishing everyone:
????! ????! and ????!
mwm || *U* C > || mike || ????  || ???? || ??? || ?????? (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)
sign language linguist / linguistic typologist at large / "Have
language(s), will travel"

*"If one has no affection for a person or a system, one should feel free to
give the fullest expression to his disaffection so long as he does not
contemplate, promote, or incite violence." (MKG)
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders
and decrees. An evil administration never deserves such allegiance.
Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil.* *A good person will resist
an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil
state is therefore a duty." (MKG)*
been there, done that...


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 25 19:32:13 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:32:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.25 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JAN.2012.113213.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 25 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL> <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.18 #01# [EN]

Hi, Ron

I was wondering what you thought of Andy Eagle's and my reaction to your
question about Scots sclusters

Ingmar

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2012.01.17 (02) [EN]

Hope you are not snowed in too badly, Ron...

About the Scots sclusters, I have my own little theory:

Old Anglosaxon sc- became something like sh- in Scots, as in English, at
least in some cases,
e.g. when a front vowel followed.
As the cluster scr- became shr-, the similar cluster sl- became scl-

About this parallell of sl- with scr-: in Dutch it's not possible too say
sr- , must be schr- [sxr].
In Dutch, many people even say Schri Lanka with intrusive ch [x] -> [sxri].
In German that would be schr- [SR], and in German, one can not say sl-, it
must be schl- [Sl].

Later the Vikings influenced Scots and sh- was replaced back by sk- again,
parallell to the many
Scandinavian words were borrowed into Scots and English with sk/sc  instead
of sh:
scream, scrape, scuttle, sky, skim, skittish  etc.

But in Scots, shr- and shl- were both restored as scr-, scl-, so even old
sl- became scl- via shl-.
In your examples, all the words with scl- have a front vowel, maybe that
was important for sl-
to become shl- as well (influence of Celtic slenderness?)

Just by 2 eurocents.

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Phonolgy

Dear Lowlanders,

I am intrigued by some Scots words with scl... in which the /s-/ or the
/-k-/ seem to be intrusive. I wonder if we can make sense of this somehow.

Examples:

Intrusive s?

sclammer 'clamber'
sclammer 'clamor'
sclim 'climb'

Intrusive k?

sclice 'slice' [Medieval French esclicier!]

sclidder ~ slidder 'slither'
sclate ~ slate 'slate' [Medieval French esclat!]
sclender ~ sclinner 'slender' [Medieval French esclendre!]
scly 'slide'
sclype ~ slype 'slap'
sklent ~ slent 'slant'

spl- > skl-?

sklinter 'splinter'

What do you think is going on where Medieval French does not account for
the formations?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (about to be snowed in again ...)

 ----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonolgy

Hi, Ingmar!

So far I have merely tossing the info I got from you and Andy around in my
head. (I've been rather busy and also under the weather.)

At this point, Andy's proposal that we are dealing with analogous extension
seems rather appealing to me.

Thanks to both of you!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (no more snow but wind ...)

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 25 19:38:18 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:38:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Resources' 2012.01.25 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.25.JAN.2012.113818.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 25 January 2012 - Volume 02
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From: Tom?s ? C?rthaigh tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Resources" [EN]

Politics.ie, the Irish politics forum, has a very good thread on archaic
words in Ireland<http://www.politics.ie/forum/culture-community/123046-archaic-phrases-92.html>,
in effect the change in Hiberno-English and other dialects in Ireland.

Do be warned there are a lot of offensive posts on it too though :-(

  ----------

 From: Ultonia Communications info at ultonia.com
 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2012.01.24 (01) [EN]

Hi Mike,

Robinson's version, which you rightly note is now available in second
edition, was self-defined as a *descriptive* grammar.

If you look at this:
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAReferenceGrammar.htm

Robinson's is intended (from his own introduction) to fall into the
right-hand column (whether it does or doesn't is, I guess, for the reader
ultimately to assess). This one, however, is intended for the left-hand
column!

Regards,
Ian P.

Ian James Parsley
Ultonia Communications
"Creating Understanding"

T: +44 (0)28 9146 4579
E: info at ultonia.com
W: www.ultonia.com

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 26 19:33:23 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:33:23 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.26 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2012.113323.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 26 January 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: "Etymology"Pl.

*Intelligent und ein Leben lang treu: die Dohle*
Zum Vogel des Jahres 2012 gew?hlt
(dat s?nd wi Lowlanners ok)

http://www.nabu.de/aktionenundprojekte/vogeldesjahres/2012-dohle/

De *Preisterduw *f. Dohle hett v?l Namens.

Nahslagen heff ick bi Perfesser Vo?lo un 'Schriftenreihe des
Karbe-Wagner-Archivs, Heft 8
'Unterhaltsame Volkskunde' zusammengestellt, bevorwortet und redigiert von
Annalise Wagner, Neustrelitz 1971.  Dohle: Preesterduw, Thalk, Klaas, Kauk

Hier nu, wat Perfesser Vo?lo sammelt hett:
*Preisterduw *f. Dohle, so benannt, weil sie gern am Kirchturm nisten und
sitzen.
De Preisterduw tellt tau *Raw *Rabe, Pl. *Raben, Rawen*. - Mnd. *ravene,
raven, rave.
**Klas* f. Dohle, *De Kl?s' dor v?r ehr Nester*; man sagt, die *Kl?*s'
k?nnen sprechen lernen, wenn ihnen die Zunge gel?st wird.
FN.: *Klasb?k, -barg, -koppel, -kraug, -weg.*

Schrfitenreihe: *Kauk *f. Dohle, weil ihr Ruf "kauk-kauk" lautet.

*DUDEN 7 *Etymologie der deutschen Sprache:
*Dohle: *Die heute ?bliche Form des Vogelnamens stammt aus dem *Mitteld.
(Th?ring.)* und erlangte im 16. Jh. gemeinsprachliche Geltung.
*Mhd. *tahele, t?le (beachte *mdal. *Dahle) ist eine Verkleinerungsbildung
zu gleichbed. *mhd. *tahe, *ahd. *taha, vgl. *engl. *daw "Dohle". Der
kleine Rabenvogel ist nach seinem eigent?mlichen Lockruf benannt.

Dat k?nn je sien, dat *Thalk  *von *tahele, t?le *stammen deit...?

Ein Nahwer hadd in sien'n Gorden ein *Preisterduv*, de Jakob heiten hett un
tau un tau n?dlich snacken k?nn. Wi G?ren dunnmals hebben uns' Freud' an
hatt.

Un wov?l Namens k?nn de Preisterduv in anner Spraken hebben...?

Nu ward dat hier woll bil?tten Winter.

Hartlich.
Hanne

  ----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:Etymology

Dank di, Hanne!

Folks, the bird Hanne mentioned about (Low Saxon *Preesterduv' ~
Preisterduv'* "priest's dove/pigeon" and *Kauk*, German *Dohle*) is the
following, declared the bird of 2012:

*Corvus monedula*
English: jackdaw
Scots: *kae*
Frisian:
*   *West: *k?gje*
*   *East (Sater): *doole*
* *   North: *likf?gel*, *likenf??gel**, **alk*, *?lken*
Dutch: *kauw, ka, kerkkauw*
   Western Flemish: *kauwe*
Limburgish: *kauw*
Danish: *allike*
Norwegian:
   Dano-: *kaie*
*   *New:* kaie*
Swedish: *kaja*

Other Low Saxon dialects have *Dohl* and *Krickelkreih*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA (where it's almost sunny for a change)


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 27 06:23:06 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:23:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Resources' 2012.01.26 (02) [EN-SCO]
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2012.222306.0800.>

=====================================================
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From: Michael Everson everson at evertype.com
Subject: "Alice's Carr?nts in Wunnerlan" (Alice in Ulster Scots) published
by Evertype

Evertype would like to announce the publication of Anne Morrison-Smyth's
translation of "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" into the Ulster Scots
language, "Alice's Carr?nts in Wunnerlan". The book uses John Tenniel's
classic illustrations. A page with links to Amazon.com and
Amazon.co.uk<http://amazon.co.uk/>is available athttp://
www.evertype.com/books/alice-ulster.html . Bookstores can order copies at a
discount from the publisher.

>From the Introduction (English follows below):

Lewis Carroll is a pen-name: Charles Lutwidge Dodgson wus the scriever?s
richt name an hae wus lecturer in Mathematics in Christ Church, Oxford.
Dodgson stairtet the story on 4 July 1862, whin hae tuk a jaunt in a rowin
boat on the river Thames in Oxford thegither wi the Reverent Robinson
Duckworth, wi Alice Liddell (ten years oul), the dochter o the Deen o
Christ Church, an wi her twa sisters, Lorina (thirteen years oul), an Edith
(eight years oul). Frae the beginnin o the book, it?s clear that the thrie
weel?sses axt Dodgson fur a story an, reluctant at furst, hae stairtet tae
tell the furst version o the story tae thim. Monie half-hidden refrences ir
med tae the five o thim throughout the text o the book itsel, whuch wus
publisht at last in 1865.

This buk is the furst translation o Alice?s Adventures in Wonderland intae
Ulster Scots, a language that comes frae the Lowlans in Scotlan an thin wus
brocht intae Norlin Airlan in the early 17th Century. Es it?s a dialect o
Scots it haes close links wi standart Inglesh, but thur?s monie differences
in baith grammer an vocabulary between the twa languages.

The orthography used in this book?s based on the spellins that ir maistly
used bae native taakers o Ulster Scots. Baecaas Ulster Scots haes only
recently bin wrote doon mere, it haesnae a fully standardized orthography,
es weel es authoritative an comprehensive dictionaries tae help scrievers
tae spell consistently. Baecaas Ulster Scots wusnae lukt upon es a language
in its ain richt scrievers o Ulster Scots hae larnt tae think in thur ain
language an scrieve doon wurds in standart Inglesh?an so whin fowk write in
Ulster Scots, they hae tae stap a weethin ivery noo an agane tae mine hoo
some wurds ir spelt.

A guid deel o effert haes bin putt intae makin sure the orthography used in
Alice?s Carr?nts in Wunnerlan is es consistent es possible. The spellin
conforms tae traditional practices amang maist o them that scrieve in
Ulster Scots an shud bae aisily read bae native taakers o the language,
that hae bin brocht up in the Ulster Scots taakin airts.

Lewis Carroll is a pen-name: Charles Lutwidge Dodgson was the author?s real
name and he was lecturer in Mathematics in Christ Church, Oxford. Dodgson
began the story on 4 July 1862, when he took a journey in a rowing boat on
the river Thames in Oxford together with the Reverend Robinson Duckworth,
with Alice Liddell (ten years of age) the daughter of the Dean of Christ
Church, and with her two sisters, Lorina (thirteen years of age), and Edith
(eight years of age). As is clear from the poem at the beginning of the
book, the three girls asked Dodgson for a story and reluctantly at first he
began to tell the first version of the story to them. There are many
half-hidden references are made to the five of them throughout the text of
the book itself, which was published finally in 1865.

This book is the first translation of Alice?s Adventures in Wonderland into
Ulster Scots, a language which derives from the Lowlands in Scotland and
which was imported into Northern Ireland in the early 17th century. As a
dialect of Scots, it is closely related to standard English, but there are
many differences in both grammar and vocabulary between the two languages.

The orthography used in this book is based on the spellings that are mostly
used by native speakers of Ulster Scots. Since Ulster Scots has only
recently been written down, it lacks a fully standardized orthography, as
well as authoritative and comprehensive dictionaries to help writers to
spell consistently. Since Ulster Scots was not previously recognized as a
language in its own right, writers of Ulster Scots have learned to think in
their own language while writing down words in standard English?and so when
people write Ulster Scots, they often have to pause to remember how certain
words are spelled.

A good deal of effort has been put into ensuring that the orthography used
in Alice?s Carr?nts in Wunnerlan is as consistent as possible. The spelling
conforms to traditional practices amongst most of those writing in Ulster
Scots and should be easily read by native speakers of Ulster Scots, brought
up in the Ulster Scots speaking areas.

==========
Michaael Everson
Evertype, http://alice-in-wonderland-books.com

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 27 18:33:19 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:33:19 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JAN.2012.103319.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
 Subject: LL-L 'Resources' 2012.01.26 (02) [EN-SCO]

Re ? Alice?s Carr?nts in Wunnerlan?

Can anybody tell me the etymology of ?Carr?nts??

Alvast bedankt

Jacqueline Bdj
Seattle USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 28 00:55:15 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:55:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (02) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <FRI.27.JAN.2012.165515.0800.>

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From: Andy andy at scots-online.org
 Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (01) [EN-NL]

Jacqueline wrote:

Re ? Alice?s Carr?nts in Wunnerlan?
Can anybody tell me the etymology of ?Carr?nts??

>From French courante.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
 Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'

Beste Jacqueline,

You wrote:

Re ? Alice?s Carr?nts in Wunnerlan?

Can anybody tell me the etymology of ?Carr?nts??


Seems cognate with Dutch "krant", which < courant (French for "running").
See also:

etymologiebank.nl <http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/krant>

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 28 15:03:37 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:03:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.28 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JAN.2012.070337.0800.>

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From: KarlRein at aol.com
 Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (02) [EN-NL]

*I too would assume that "carr?nts" is cognate with Du. "krant".  However,
Fr. "courant", originally coming from the present participle of "courir"
meaning "run", has long ago taken on the meaning of "up-to-datedness" as in
the expression "au courant" meaning "knowing what is going on, aware of the
latest", = Du. "op de hoogte."  Thus: "the news," just as is suggested in
Du. "krant."*
**
*Karl Reinhardt*
**
*Bellaire, Texas, USA*

 In a message dated 1/27/2012 6:55:48 P.M. Central Standard Time,
lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM writes:

From: Andy andy at scots-online.org
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (01) [EN-NL]

Jacqueline wrote:

Re ? Alice?s Carr?nts in Wunnerlan?
Can anybody tell me the etymology of ?Carr?nts??

>From French courante.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'

Beste Jacqueline,

 You wrote:

  Re ? Alice?s Carr?nts in Wunnerlan?

Can anybody tell me the etymology of ?Carr?nts??


Seems cognate with Dutch "krant", which < courant (French for "running").
See also:

etymologiebank.nl <http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/krant>

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 28 19:35:35 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:35:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.28 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.28.JAN.2012.113535.0800.>

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From: "Steven Hanson" <ammurit at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.28 (01) [EN]

This is similar to English usage of the word ?current?, as in ?current
events?, and so on.

From: KarlRein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2012.01.27 (02) [EN-NL]

*I too would assume that "carr?nts" is cognate with Du. "krant".  However,
Fr. "courant", originally coming from the present participle of "courir"
meaning "run", has long ago taken on the meaning of "up-to-datedness" as in
the expression "au courant" meaning "knowing what is going on, aware of the
latest", = Du. "op de hoogte."  Thus: "the news," just as is suggested in
Du. "krant."*



*Karl Reinhardt*


*Bellaire, Texas, USA*

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'

Beste Karl,

You wrote:

*I too would assume that "carr?nts" is cognate with Du. "krant".  However,
Fr. "courant", originally coming from the present participle of "courir"
meaning "run", has long ago taken on the meaning of "up-to-datedness" as in
the expression "au courant" meaning "knowing what is going on, aware of the
latest", = Du. "op de hoogte."  Thus: "the news," just as is suggested in
Du. "krant."*


Three more Lowlands examples:

   - current (E), as in "current news"...news of the day
   - currency (E) ~ money, passing from person to person...the act of money
   "in motion" is stressed here
   - de courant (B, "de koeraa?), electricity, stroom (D), a stream of
   electrons


Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium


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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 29 14:17:55 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:17:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Language Politics' 2012.01.29 (01) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JAN.2012.061755.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: Language Politics

Here you can see how and why Low Saxon will become the world's language
(again):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk5Y8iB_yWI&feature=related

Ingmar
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 30 04:21:24 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:21:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Resources' 2012.01.29 (02) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.29.JAN.2012.202124.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subjeckt: Language Politics

Hier all v?rweg ein Gr?uten ut Swerin bi K?ll un Snei,

Ingmar wrote:
Here you can see how and why Low Saxon will become the world's
language (again).

Ick heff de Web-Sid bes?cht un mi ok l?tt b?ten oewer dat ?keln (*glossiert?)
*hoegt. So einfach is dat woll nich, as uns'  Fr?nn'n (Friesen) sick dat so
denken.  So k?nn man oewer taugliek mal 'n echten Plattd??tschen snacken
h?ren. Un dor k?mmt dat up an. H?t m?ten wi uns alltohopen f?r dat Bestahn,
?m de Pl?g von Nedderd??tsch un anner Minnerheitenspraken insetten.

J?st k?m mi in den'n Sinn:

'H?r- und Lernbuch f?r das Plattdeutsche von Renate Herrmann-Winter.'
Tau dit Liehrbauk gifft dat ok ein CD.

So kann man in 60:53 Minuten echte Plattsnacker vertellen h?ren, tau'n
Bispill:
- Kann man Plattd??tsch lihren/studeeren - Woans snacken wi Platt
(Aussprache) mit v?l Verkloren -  odder wenn dat heit *Goden Dach, Gauden
Dag - Wenn dat ?m dat Befinn'n geiht odder wat de Minsch sick so v?rnahmen
hett -  Sick up de Kinnertied besinn'n - Kauken backen - oewer Fisch fangen
- up'n Land'n un wat oewer de Immen- usw.. -
V?l plattd??tsche W?r' un ok v?l Vertellen mit echte Plattsnackers.
Soeben-un-twintig mal kannst di uts?uken, wat du j?st lihren wist.
*
Ick heff mi v?r mien Antwuurt noch eins de CD anh?ert. Sch?ne echte Kl?er
ut M?kelborg un ?mtau.

Egentlich tau schaad, dat 't hiervon kein Web-Sied g?ben deit.  De
GEMA-Rechte (Urheber-Rechte) m?ten inhollen warden. Dor s?ll man noch eins
oewer nahdenken...

Hartlich.

Hanne

-----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resourcers

Dank di, Hanne.

Folks, Hanne asked for a gloss for Low Saxon *?keln*. The closest I can get
to "translating" it is 'jesting', 'spoofing', 'teasing' ...
(*?kelnaam*means 'nickname'.)

As for the book with CD Hanne referred to (*H?r- und Lernbuch f?r das
Plattdeutsche*, Renate Herrmann-Winter), it can be ordered through some of
our Lowlands-L Amazon Shops (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php):

Deutschland: http://astore.amazon.de/lowlal0d-21/detail/3356011006
France: http://astore.amazon.fr/lowlal01-21/detail/3356011006
UK: http://astore.amazon.co.uk/lowlands-shop_uk-21/detail/3356011006
USA: http://astore.amazon.com/lowlands-shop_us-20/detail/3356011006

If you order *anything* (not only books) from Amazon.com, please consider
doing so through our shops (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php). A
small percentage (which so far has been mere pennies) will go toward the
upkeep of Lowlands-L (which I am paying for out of my own pocket).

Have a good week!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 31 17:26:04 2012
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:26:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L 'Lexicon' 2012.01.31 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.31.JAN.2012.092604.0800.>

=====================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L - 31 January 2012 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at -online.de> <hannehinz at -online.de>
Subject: Etymologie/Tradition ?

So rasch kann dat miteins gahn, nu is de Winter mit grote K?ll  un Snei dor.

*Glitschen

*Juchhei un ri, ra, ritsch!
Wi maken uns ein Glitsch
von baben an bet ?nnen dal
un wedder tr?gg, un denn noch mal.
Ward dat ein feine Glitsch
v?r't Hus von Mudder Witsch!

Nu geiht dat ri, ra, rutsch!
Wo ick de Bahn langflutsch;
ein Bein nah v?rn, denn in de Huk.
Perdauz, dor fl?ggt ein up den'n Buk,
wielde? ick wierer flutsch
un ?m de Eck r?mwutsch.

V?rbi is 't ri, ra, ratsch.
De Iesbahn ward tau Matsch.
Wo't gistern noch so speigelblank,
driwt h?t dat Wader lingelang,
bet allens is ein Matsch.
Un dat geiht ri, ra, ratsch.

Autorin: Ursula Kurz, Wittenburg
(de mi dat V?rstellen h?t per Quasselstripp verl?wt hett)

*Glitsch f. *Gleitbahn, welche sich die Kinder auf dem Eise oder festem
Schnee schaffen:  *ick mak di ok ne Glitsch, wenn dat Ies ierst h?llt.* - *
glitschen* auf dem Eise gleiten; Steine auf der Oberfl?che eines
Gew?ssers *glitschen
*lassen: 'ob er die ablate aus dem Munde in die Hand glitschen lassen
(habe), wisse er nicht' (1715); Sch?nberg/Bernstorf. Zss.: *af-,
utglitschen; waterglitschen.
*Auch unausgebackener, wasserstreifiger Zustand des Brotes: *all' een
Glitsch. *Zss.: *Lus'-, Rotz-, Slangenglitsch.*

*Stritschauh, *-schoh (*i *lang) m. Schlittschuh.  Olle Stritschauh kann
man sick h?tigendags in dat Heimatmuseum Waren ankieken. *Sick Stritschauh
ansnallen; up dei blanken Stridschauhschau ... hentaususen; Stritschauh
lopen*; in Rdaa.: *dee  *(Betrunkener, der herumtorkelt) *l?ppt Stritschauh
*Wismar/Sternberg; *dor *(auf dicker Suppe) *kann 'n Stritschauh up
lopen *Malchin/Gielow;
*dee *(kahler Kopf) *is glatt, dat de L?s' dor up Stritschoh lopen
k?nen *Rostock;
*dat is ne K?ll, dat de Fl?h up 'n Pi?pott Stritschoh lopen* (is b?ten
deftig) Rostock; Bes.(besonders): *Stritschauh s?geln; bi 't
Stritschauhs?geln* *ward* *dat S?gel ?wer de* *Schuller h?ngt
*Rostock/Warnem?nde;
zu *striden *1. Syn.: *Schrit-, Slittschauh. -* Mnd. *stritsch?.
*Lit.: Perfesser Vo?lo

Un wenn dat Ies bi grote K?ll mit Larm *bosten *(bersten, brechen) deh,
m??t' man bannig bi 't Stritschauh-Lopen uppassen vunw?gen de groten Ritzen.
Wi Kinner s?den oewer *borsten*.
Bi dat *Stritschauhs?geln *hebben wi Kinner ?mmer den'n Wintermantel
upkn?pt; dat wier uns' *S?gel*. Binah wier dat  Suusen mit scharpen Wind
tau dull.

Dit wier b?ten wat ut de Kinnertied bi Ies un Snei.

Un wat deiht sick bi uns' Lowlanners tau Wintertied...

Hartlich.
Hanne

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