Intelligibility between Nahuatl dialects

Wed May 17 11:39:38 UTC 2000

Dear Andrea and all,

I was responding to Yaoxochitl's suggestion that Mark found Nahuatl speakers
less than forthcoming because "it could also have something to do with your
ethnic background, in the sense that you are regarded as a "Westerner" in
their eyes."  My point is that being North American is not necessarily a
disadvantage in such situations.

My experience in rural Mexico is that many people are most aware of a
profound distinction between people (urban Mexicans, North Americans,
Europeans, whatever) who lead relatively comfortable lives and those who
engage in a daily struggle for enough to eat, access to medicine, safe
drinking water, and minimally adequate housing. Commonly people resent
anthropologists, who are perceived as comfortable people who have actually
managed to make their careers out of information extracted from people who
do NOT lead comfortable lives.  Willingly sharing people's uncomfortable
lives (albeit temporarily) and being a resource to make people's day-to-day
lives a little better (as in sponsoring godchildren) is more appreciated
than ethnic or national background.

(And yes, most Nahuatl speakers call their language "mexicano," but they
tend to call themselves "macehualtin" as contrasted with the mestizo
population of Mexico.)

People who are struggling just to live find the issue that Mark considers
grave--that of maintaining indigenous languages and letting them be
studied--of little urgency by comparison with making sure their children
survive and have some sort of future.  That route is generally perceived as
through making children monolingual in the dominant culture's language, even
though that means losing their own language heritage.  Linguists find this
hard to take, but it's really not our business to preach to people weighing
physical survival against language survival.  (This is true worldwide.  At
least half the languages of the world will probably no longer be spoken by
anyone after another generation or two.)

At the time of Mexican independence in the 19th century, the indigenous
peoples of Mexico had their "Indian courts" abolished.  The professional
notaries who had recorded their deeds, testaments, bills of sale, petitions,
and verbatim testimony in their own languages were put out of business.  The
indigenous peoples (Nahuas, Mayas, Mixtecs, Zapotecs, and scores more) were
told that "we are all Mexicans now."  But it was a disaster for the
indigenous peoples.  They lost their last bulwark of legal protection, and
they lost the one practical reason for maintaining their own languages.
Yes, maybe the indigenous peoples of Mexico are now "Mexicans," even
patriotic Mexicans, but they are painfully aware that they are at the bottom
of a society where the power is reserved for the top.  That is what the
on-going events of Chiapas are fundamentally about.

The book "Speaking Mexicano" provides a sense of what it has been like in
the recent past to be a Nahua in modern Mexico.  The book represents Jane
and Kenneth Hill's cooperative work with Alberto Zepeda (under the alias
"Alfredo Zapata" in the book), his community, and neighboring communities
and is an example of how such a project can be undertaken by people working
together.  The Hills made themselves welcome in his community, but it was a
very young Albertohtzin who did the interviews, worked with the Hills in
transcribing them, and provided commentary about what was going on in the
interviews. His priest and family saw this work as a paid apprenticeship
that could lead to a better life for Alberto, and as an adult (husband,
father, teacher, and our esteemed colleague) he has a profession without
having given up his community's language.  This is a significant personal
accomplishment for someone of his generation, and perhaps it benefits his
community too.  As for "Speaking Mexicano," it is the product of something
that would not have been accomplished by non-Nahuas through casual
conversations, structured interviews, or questionnaires.

A similar productive partnership is between the linguists Jose Antonio
Flores Farfan and Cleofas Ramirez Celestino.  Cleofas Ramirez C. is a native
speaker of Nahuatl and a traditional painter as well as a linguist.
Together she and Jose Antonio Flores F. have produced all sorts of beautiful
child-oriented material for Nahuatl language retention and revitalization.

The ultimate ethical responsibility of linguists is to help people study
their own languages, but in this time of critical language endangerment, we
all need to work together.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: "Andrea Martínez" <andreamb at infosel.net.mx>
>To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: RE: Intelligibility between Nahuatl dialects
>Date: Wed, May 17, 2000, 1:47 AM
>

> To Frances Karttunen and all:
>
> I am very sorry for the arrogant and incorrect view of "Mexicans" your last
> letter shows. I remind you that "Nahuas" are Mexican, yes, as Mexican as the
> ones who hire them as maids, for the matter. It is a nationality, most
> Nahuas belong to it and, as nearly all Mexicans, are proud of being so. I
> don' t know of a single Mexican who doesn't consider himself as such. I
> would appreciate a little humbleness: neither "Mexicans"are all as bad, nor
> all Americans as good as you so confidently think you are.
>
> Andrea Martinez
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net>
> Para: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> Fecha: Martes 16 de Mayo de 2000 06:35 PM
> Asunto: Re: Intelligibility between Nahuatl dialects
>
>
>>To Yaoxochitl,
>>
>>It's been my experience that Nahuas have been particularly hospitable and
>>outgoing to me and to my North American colleagues, while being quite
>>stand-offish to Mexicans.  You can see why.  Once one of my colleagues (who
>>has many ahijadas in a Nahua area) and I were waiting for a bus in a
>>miserable dust storm.  A couple of women who were also taking shelter
>>against the church atrio wall while waiting for the bus asked us if we were
>>out in the country looking for maids to work for us.  We explained that we
>>were carrying suitcases and bultos of presents for the godchildren, and
>>these women helped us on the bus, chatted with us, reminded the bus driver
>>where to let us off and hoped to meet us again.  After all, we were
>>traveling by second class bus just like they were.
>>
>>By contrast, one day when I came back late in the afternoon, my landlady
>>told me how lucky I was to have been out all afternoon, because a carload
> of
>>anthropologists had come looking for me.  She had told them nothing and
> sent
>>them on their way.  It took me two days of asking around to figure out who
>>those anthropologists had been.
>>
>>I don't know anyone who welcomes people who arrive with the intention of
>>studying them.  Who likes being an object of study, after all?  But if one
>>makes oneself useful and also reveals a genuine interest and some ability
>>with the language, someone usually reciprocates that interest.
>>
>>Fran
>>
>>----------
>>>From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com
>>>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>>>Subject: Re: Intelligibility between Nahuatl dialects
>>>Date: Tue, May 16, 2000, 5:14 PM
>>>
>>
>>> Mark,
>>>      Another factor could be that you are an outsider and for that
> reason,
>>> the majority of people would not strike up a conversation with you
>>> regardless of how casual it is.  First, you have to establish trust among
>>> your informants.  Second, it could also have something to do with your
>>> ethnic background, in the sense that you are regarded as a "Westerner" in
>>> their eyes.  Last, given the so-called social stigma attached to Nahuatl,
>>> could it be that they just do not care to talk to you?
>>>
>