Chimalpahin

[Galen Brokaw]

Jose,
Rikke Marie beat me to the answer, and I think the translation is
certainly correct, but I would add a couple of things and a question for
Rikke Marie or anybody else.
First, it is just interesting to note that Nahuat texts often make our
job a lot easier, because as in the case you cite Nahuatl discoruse has
a tendency to express the same idea repeatedly using a variety of
different words. Such synonymous expressions are not always exactly the
same, which helps give you a more complete picture of what is being
conveyed. Nevertheless, when they provide a series of more or less
synonymous expressions, it makes it easier to figure out any given one
of them that may not be as morphologically transparent as the rest.
With regard to the specific phrase you mention, it would seem to be
clear that the "o" is from "ohtli" or "otli" meaning "road" or "path",
and that otlatoca means to follow a path or a road. This is well
attested. But I'm curious about the "tla" in this construction. Is it
merely a transformation of the absolutive suffix "tli" in order to avoid
a short word? Are there a lot of examples of this kind of thing? Or is
there another explanation? Of course, the first thing that comes to mind
is a kind of fossilized non-specific object pronoun (which is evident in
some other verbs), but I really don't know, especially given the fact
that it is clear that "toca" does not always appear with this object
pronoun. So it certainly isn't always fossilized. I know this doesn't
really pose a problem for translation, because "otlatoca" is well
attested in other contexts, including the instance just a few words
earlier in this same text. So this is just a question to satisfy the
morphological rigor that Joe instilled me :-).
With regard to "cecente[tl]", part of the problem is that to classify
Nahuatl words as nouns, ajectives, and verbs is sometimes misleading.
The point is that self-conscious grammar enters into a dialogic
relationship with linguistic practice in ways that tend to codify
language in clear cut ways that do not necessarily reflect the more
flexible and nebulous linguistic ontology of unfettered oral speech that
has not been subject to a process of self-conscious grammaticalization.
So, although in some cases "cecente-" may seem to function as what we
call an ajective, as Rikki Marie points out technically it is a noun
because it has that noun root 'te' from 'tetl', and nouns (normally
defined in Nahuatl as words that take absolutive suffixes) can be
imbedded in verbs to function as either objects or adverbs as defined by
modern grammatical categories. With the duplication of the "ce", the
"cecente" might be rendered as "each one." The plural "ilhuicame" at the
end seems to suggest that it is talking about celestial planes. (Is he
talking here perhaps about the European model of concentric heavens?) So
it seems to me that the phrase "cecenteotlatoca" could be understood as
saying literally "They path-followed in an each-one like way" which
would translate more eloquently in English as "Each one followed its
path" or maybe even better "They followed their respective paths."
Galen






Rikke Marie Olsen wrote:
> Dear Jose
>
> About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it cè-cen-te-ò-tla-toca. I think the
> first cè is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ò is the root for road.
> Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because nahauspeakers
> dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all You have
> an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a
> numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl).
> I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't
> looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit.
>
> Best regards,
> Rikke Marie Olsen,
> Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture,
> University of Copenhagen.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]
> On Behalf Of José Rabasa
> Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11
> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
> Subject: Chimalpahin
>
> Dear Listeros:
>
> A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we
> have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario.  We found the following
> passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in
> which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses.
> The passage reads:
>
> "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic
> cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael
> Tena's edition p. 228).
>
> We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca.
> Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it
> could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an
> adjetive could not modify a verb.  The other option would be to read
> cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as
> "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the
> European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than
> science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jose Rabasa
>
>