Pronunciation Questions

John Sullivan, Ph.D. idiez at mac.com
Wed Feb 21 20:09:24 UTC 2007 

Galen,
	The devoiced n I'm talking about is an aspiration (without vocal  
chord vibration) through the mouth and nose which is different from  
the final h, also breathed through the mouth and nose. I am talking  
right now with one of the native speakers, and he can definitely feel  
the difference between the two. The devoiced n has more air going  
through the nose than the mouth, while the final h has practically  
all the air going through the mouth.
	Words like michin and the -tzin suffix end in the devoiced n I am  
talking about.
John

On Feb 21, 2007, at 1:10 PM, brokaw at buffalo.edu wrote:

>
>>
>> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871
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>> Joe,
>> 	I'll just add that the only words I've hearn with a voiced final n
>>
>> are monosyllabic. Here are a few:
>> 1. pan (foscilized relational word): voiced final n
>> 2. ipan (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced final
>> n
>> 3. huan (fiscilized relational word), voiced final n
>> 4. tlan (if, versus the tla: of Classical), voiced final n
>> 5. tlen (what, that), voiced final n.
>> 6. quen (the comparative "like"): voiced final n.
>> John
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote:
>>
>>> Doug,
>>>
>>>    Put me down as one of the people on Nahuat-l who appreciates
>> your
>>> questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us to
>>> probe what we know and what we don't know.
>>>    Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and
>> *voiceless*)
>>> when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or vocable is
>>> obviously at
>>> least partially correct.  Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a
>> vowel
>>> in the same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position
>> (resulting
>>> in [n]) or 2) before a consonant:
>>>
>>>   1
>>>     tlami             it ends up
>>>    otlan              it ended up
>>>
>>>   2
>>>     tzontecomatl      head
>>>     tzonteconcocolli  headache
>>>
>>>    The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is voiceless.
>> He
>>> gives no reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source.
>>
>>> This
>>> isn't fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without
>>
>>> the
>>> kind of evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel
>> compelled
>>> to -- and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the
>>> support
>>> is there for Andrews' claim!
>>>    However, I have searched and reflected at length and I have
>>> found no
>>> basis for this "devoicing" claim.  Further, I have difficulty in
>>> imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the
>> limits
>>> on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl pronunciation, I
>> doubt
>>> it.  Also, I know that we are discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but
>> I
>>> believe that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the
>> older
>>> stages of the language were like.  And in spite of having
>> familiarity
>>> with a number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final
>> voiceless
>>> nasal.  (I have to concede that if they existed, they would be
>>> relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!)
>>>
>>>
>>>> 1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced at the end of
>>>> syllables, but not about 'l'. I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a
>>>> statement that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would
>> sound
>>>> like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced lateral fricative. Is
>> this
>>>> common? And I assume 'm' at the end of syllables in words like
>>>> *ipampa* would do the same?
>>>
>>> Iztayohmeh,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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>> 	charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> <HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space;
>> =
>> -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Joe,<DIV><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-style-span"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
>> style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>I'll just add that the only words
>> =
>> I've hearn with a voiced final <I>n</I> are monosyllabic. Here are a
>> =
>> few:</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span">1. <I>pan</I>
>> =
>> (foscilized relational word): voiced final =
>> <I>n</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span">2. =
>> <I>ipan</I> (the same relational word, with a possessor): devoiced
>> final =
>> <I>n</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span"><I>3. huan
>> =
>> (<SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: =
>> normal;">fiscilized relational word), voiced final =
>> </SPAN>n</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN
>> class=3D"Apple-style-span"><I><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal;">4. tlan (if,
>> =
>> versus the </SPAN>tla:<SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
>> style=3D"font-style: normal;"> of Classical), voiced final =
>> </SPAN>n</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV>5<I>. tlen </I>(what, that), voiced
>> final =
>> <I>n.</I></DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span"><I><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal;">6. =
>> </SPAN>quen<SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: =
>> normal;"> (the comparative "like"): voiced final =
>> </SPAN>n.</I></SPAN></DIV><DIV>John</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-style-span"><I><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
>> style=3D"font-style: normal;"><BR></SPAN></I><DIV><DIV>On Feb 21,
>> 2007, =
>> at 12:04 PM, Campbell, R Joe wrote:</DIV><BR =
>> class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; ">Doug,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
>> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height:
>> =
>> 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
>> =
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 </SPAN>Put me down as one of
>> the =
>> people on Nahuat-l who appreciates your<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
>> ">questions and, who (I hope) has gained from your encouraging us =
>> to<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; ">probe what we know and what we don't
>> know.</DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 =
>> </SPAN>Andrews' statement (p. 36) that /m/ becomes [n] (and =
>> *voiceless*)<SPAN
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; ">when "left exposed" at the end of a syllable or
>> =
>> vocable is obviously at<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">least
>> =
>> partially correct.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
>> </SPAN>Although /m/ and /n/ contrast before a vowel<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in
>> the =
>> same word, they neutralize 1) in word final position (resulting<SPAN
>> =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in
>> [n]) =
>> or 2) before a consonant:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
>> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height:
>> =
>> 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
>> =
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>1</DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =
>> </SPAN>tlami <SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0
>> =A0 =A0=
>>  </SPAN>it ends up</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right:
>> =
>> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 </SPAN>otlan<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 </SPAN>it
>> =
>> ended up</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
>> "><BR></DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
>> </SPAN>2</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 </SPAN>tzontecomatl<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =A0 </SPAN>head</DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 =
>> </SPAN>tzonteconcocolli<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
>> </SPAN>headache</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right:
>> 0px; =
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
>> "><BR></DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 =
>> </SPAN>The "partially" refers to his claim that the [n] is =
>> voiceless.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>He<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">gives
>> no =
>> reason that devoicing occurs, nor does he cite a source.<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>This<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">isn't
>> =
>> fatal, since he frequently makes claims about Nahuatl without
>> the<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">kind
>> of =
>> evidence which most late 20th century linguists feel compelled<SPAN
>> =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to --
>> =
>> and then if one examines relevant data, he finds that the
>> support<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is
>> there =
>> for Andrews' claim!</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right:
>> =
>> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 </SPAN>However, I have
>> searched =
>> and reflected at length and I have found no<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">basis
>> =
>> for this "devoicing" claim.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
>> =
>> </SPAN>Further, I have difficulty in<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
>> ">imagining it to be true. Now, while this may be due more to the =
>> limits<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; ">on my imagination than to the facts of Nahuatl =
>> pronunciation, I doubt<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
>> ">it.<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>Also, I know that we are
>> =
>> discussing "classical" Nahuatl, but I<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
>> ">believe =
>> that modern dialects are helpful in inferring what the older<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
>> ">stages =
>> of the language were like.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
>> =
>> </SPAN>And in spite of having familiarity<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with
>> a =
>> number of modern dialects, I have never heard a final voiceless<SPAN
>> =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
>> ">nasal.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>(I have to
>> =
>> concede that if they existed, they would be<SPAN =
>> class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
>> ">relatively hard to heard, but I *listen*!!)</DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
>> min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; ">1. He talks about 'n' and 'w' becoming unvoiced
>> at =
>> the end of</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">syllables, but not about 'l'.
>> =
>> I've seen elsewhere (on the Net) a</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top:
>> 0px; =
>> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">statement
>> =
>> that 'l' also becomes devoiced, which I gather would sound</DIV><DIV
>> =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; ">like the release of 'tl,' i.e. an unvoiced
>> lateral =
>> fricative. Is this</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right:
>> =
>> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">common? And I assume 'm'
>> at =
>> the end of syllables in words like</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top:
>> 0px; =
>> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">*ipampa*
>> =
>> would do the same?</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
>> =
>> margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height:
>> =
>> 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
>> =
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Iztayohmeh,</DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
>> ">Joe</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
>> "><BR></DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; =
>> ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV =
>> style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
>> margin-left: 0px; ">Nahuatl mailing list</DIV><DIV
>> style=3D"margin-top: =
>> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A =
>>
> href=3D"mailto:Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org">Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org</ 
> A></DIV><=
>> DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
>> =
>> margin-left: 0px; "><A =
>>
> href=3D"http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl">http:// 
> www.famsi.or=
>> g/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl</A></DIV> =
>> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>=
>>
>> --Apple-Mail-3-502355871--
>>

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