Ball game question
John F. Schwaller
schwallr at potsdam.edu
Tue Mar 31 18:32:40 UTC 2009
On our sister list aztlan at lists.famsi.org there has been a good
discussion about the words tlachtli and tlachco. I have copied the
responses into one rather long, but quite interesting post to share it
with Nahuatl.
Pedro de Eguiluz <temazkal at mexicoantiguo.org> wrote:
> Ball Game in classic nawatl is Tlachko, in the middle of Tenochtitlan there was one called Teotlachko "Divine Game court".
>
>
>
> One of the clues that lead us to the origins of this game being astronomic observation, comes from the verbal form of the word Tlachtli "Ball game", Tlachia "Observe, see". It was used to say Ilwikakpa nitlachia "I look at the sky". "Observation post" was Tlachialoyan.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Pedro
>
John F. Schwaller <schwallr at potsdam.edu>wrote:
> You have the words somewhat reversed:
>
> Tlachtli is the ball game
>
> Tlachco is the place where it is played.
>
>
Campbell, R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu>wrote:
> Further, the verb "tlachiya" (or, in its frequent spelling,
> "tlachia") is not related to the noun "tlachtli". Word pieces are
> assumed to be the 'same' piece (morphemes) when they share enough in
> both form (phonological composition) and content (meaning). A
> proposed relationship should also be credible within observed formal
> variations of both members of a morpheme.
>
> "tlachiya" never loses enough of its basic shape to allow us to
> identify it with "tlach(tli)". While it *does* lose the /y/ segment
> in most Nahuatl dialects (after /i/ -- just as /w/ is lost after /o/)
> and the /a/ sometimes lost, the /i/ is never lost (i.e., the stem
> never shortens to "tlach...".
> The fact that "tlachiya" actually *does* have an underlying /y/ is
> obvious in the preterite where the /y/ shows up as 'x' "(o)nitlachix"
> 'I saw' and the nominal derivation "tlachixqui" 'sentinel', where the
> /y/ undergoes a general syllable-final change to 'x' (pronounced sh).
>
> This fact about the form of "tlachiya" is fatal to its proposed
> relationship with "tlachtli", but on the semantic/content side, it
> would also fail. Where could we find evidence for the relationship
> between 'seeing' and 'contest'?
> Obviously, in modern cultures, 'spectators' are tightly associated
> with 'games'.
> There wouldn't be nearly as many contestants as there are in all our
> modern contests if the pool of spectators disappeared. But that's not
> the point --
> the question is whether we can identify a relationship between
> 'seeing' and 'contest' in the community where "tlachiya" might have
> given rise to "tlachtli'.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
Gordon Whittaker <gwhitta at gwdg.de> wrote:
> Dear John and Joe,
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't tlachtli just the ball court, not
> the ball game itself? The Spanish use of 'juego' tends to blur the
> distinction, but do we actually have clear cases in Nahuatl texts of the
> term being used for the game? Tlachtli looks to me like a loan from
> Zapotec, as I think I may have argued in my dissertation. My memory's not
> what it used to be.
>
> Best,
> Gordon
John Schwaller <schwallr at potsdam.edu> wrote:
> Tlachtli is the game itself
>
> tlachco would be the "place of the game;" the final -co, is a locative,
> denoting that it is a location of the game (tlach + co).
>
> As for a Zapotec origin, I cannot comment. It works like a standard
> Nahuatl stem.
>
>
>
Campbell, R. Joe <campbel at indiana.edu> wrote:
> Dear Gordon,
>
> My hazy memory was that "tlachtli" was the game -- and "tlachco" the
> ball court. But your idea of looking at textual usage sent me to the
> Florentine Codex, thumbing pages and running my search finger down one
> column after another... |8-) Actually, I ran a search program to list
> all sentences which might be coded for the morpheme <tlachtli> and
> since it's one of the easy ones, I think all or most occurrences are
> already coded.
> To my surprise, most of the usages indicated a reference to the
> court itself. So your present memory is still better than mine.
>
> Molina's three dictionaries give results that ended up in an aborted
> summary below -- "tlachtli" refers to either the game or the court. In
> 1555 he refers only to the game, but in both the 1571 dictionaries, he
> points out the double possibility.
>
> All the best,
>
> Joe
>
>
> Florentine:
>
> *tlachtli ***
> nahuallachco. on a magical ball court. <na:hua1-l1-tlachtli-co1>. b.2
> f.14 p.239|
> teotlachco. !place> teo:tl-tlachtli-co1>. b.2 f.12 p.186|
> tezcatlachco. !place> tlachtli-co1>. b.2 f.11 p.185|
> tlachco. ball court; on the ball court; in a ball game. <tlachtli-
> co1>. b.8 f.2 p.29|
> tlachcotecatl. person of Tlachco. <tlachtli-co1-te:-catl>. b.8 f.3
> p.51|
> tlachcuauhyo. having a ball-court eagle design. <tlachtli-cua:uhtli-
> yo:tl1>. b.10 f.4 p.64|
> tlachtemalacatl. stone ring which is on a ball court. <tlachtli-tetl1-
> malacatl>. b.8 f.2 p.29|
> tlachtli. . <tlachtli>. b.2 f.14 p.231|
> tlachtli. ball court. <tlachtli>. b.3 f.3 p.37|
>
> from Molina:
>
> tlachtli. batei, juego de pelota con los quadriles, o el mesmo lugar
> donde juegan este juego; batel juego de pelota con las naigas; iuego
> de pelota assi el lugar (assi is iuego de pelota con las nalgas);
> juego de pelota con las nalgas. s. el lugar donde juegan assi.
> <tlachtli>. 71m1-3|
>
>
> Florentine contexts:
>
> tlachtli
>
> 1. *nahuallachco*. nahuallachco . in the magical ball court .
> <na:hua1-l1-tlachtli-co1> (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.239)
>
> 2. *teotlachco*. in ohualtemoc, mec tlamelahua, in motenehua
> teotlachco: . when he had come down here, then he went direct to
> [the place] called the god's ball court. . <teo:tl-tlachtli-co1>
> (b.2 f.9 c.34 p.145)
>
> 3. *teotlachco*. auh in onacic, in teotlachco in painal, niman ye
> ixpan micoa: . and when [the priest with] paynal came to
> teotlachco, then there was the slaying [of sacrificial victims]
> before him. . <teo:tl-tlachtli-co1> (b.2 f.11 c.38 p.176)
>
> 4. *teotlachco*. teotlachco. . teotlachco . <!place> teo:tl-tlachtli-co1> (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.186)
>
> 5. *teotlachco*. in teotlachco: oncan miquia in intoca catca
> amapantzitzin, . teotlachco: there died those named amapantzin
> [impersonating the god amapan]. . <!place> tlachtli-co1> (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.186)
>
> 6. *tezcatlachco*. tezcatlachco. . tezcatlachco .
> <!place>
> 7. *tezcatlachco*. in tezcatlachco: no oncan micoaya, oncan miquia
> in ixiptla huitznahuatl: zan quenman, amo mochipa: .
> tezcatlachco: there also there was slaying; there died the
> impersonator of uitznauatl--only at times, not often. .
> <!place>
> 8. *tlachco*. in oquimonmicti, mec quinhuihuilana, tlachco: . when
> they had slain them, then they dragged them about the ball court.
> . <tlachtli-co1> (b.2 f.9 c.34 p.145)
>
> 9. *tlachco*. tlachco timotlalia . in the ball court you are set .
> <tlachtli-co1> (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.239)
>
> 10. *tlachco*. mochi patolco, tlachco, quitlamia, . he used up
> everything in patolli and tlachtli. . <tlachtli-co1> (b.4 f.9 c.27
> p.94)
>
> 11. *tlachco*. aoc tepapatla, patolco, tlachco, ohuiti, chicuati,
> quichicuatilia, anoze quimomachtia in ollatolli, patollatolli,
> ollatole, patollatole: . he no longer overcame others in patolli
> or tlachtli, or embarrassed, despoiled, or took all the wagers,
> even though he understood the language, the rules, of tlachtli and
> patolli. . <tlachtli-co1> (b.4 f.9 c.27 p.94)
>
> 12. *tlachco*. auh manozo ic onilpitinemi, ma ipatiuh mochiuhtica,
> in oncan oonquetzaloc in patolco, in tlachco: ca oontlatlalililoc
> in mayehuatl in quecehuatl, in nelpiloni: . but may he go bound
> to it; may it become his aid when he hath been placed there in the
> patolli game, in the ball game; for the glove, the leather hip
> guard, the girdle have been placed on; . <tlachtli-co1> (b.6 f.5
> c.13 p.64)
>
> 13. *tlachco*. ca oc yehhuatl ontenamiquiz in patolco, in tlachco:
> oc yehhuatl onteollamiz, oc yehhuatl ompatoz. . for yet he is to
> contend with others in the patolli game, in the ball game; he is
> yet to play the ball game with others; he is yet to play patolli.
> . <tlachtli-co1> (b.6 f.5 c.13 p.64)
>
> 14. *tlachco*. niman ic quitlani in ixquich tlazotli tlatquitl, auh
> mochintin quintlani, in ixquichtin tetlatlattaque, in oncan
> tlachco: . then he won all the costly goods, and he won
> everything from all who watched there in the ball court. .
> <tlachtli-co1> (b.8 f.2 c.10 p.29)
>
> 15. *tlachco*. ihuan tlacencahualo in tlachco, tlaahuililo,
> tlaxalhuilo, tlachpano: . and things were arranged on the ball
> court; there was sprinkling, there was sanding, there was
> sweeping. . <tlachtli-co1> (b.8 f.4 c.17 p.58)
>
> 16. *tlachco*. ihuan in ixquich quitlanitoz tlatoani, in
> tlazotilmatli in xomoihhuitilmatli, in tlazomaxtlatl, in
> chalchiuhtentetl, teocuitlanacochtli, chalchiuhcozcatl,
> teocuitlacozcatl, matzopetztli chalchihuitl huei ipan ca, tlazotl:
> ihuan in ixquich tlazotilmatli, ihuan pepechtli quihualquixtia in
> calpixque, quihuallalia in tlachco. . and all which the ruler was
> to wager in the game -- the valued capes, the duck feather capes,
> the costly breech clouts, the green stone lip plugs, the golden
> ear plugs, the green stone necklaces, the golden necklaces, the
> wrist bands with large, precious, green stones upon them, and all
> the precious capes and bedding -- the majordomos brought out and
> placed in the ball court. . <tlachtli-co1> (b.8 f.4 c.17 p.58)
>
> 17. *tlachco*. ca amo tlachco, patolco otictlali, . not in tlachtli
> nor in patolli hast thou entered. . <tlachtli-co1> (b.9 f.4 c.9
> p.42)
>
> 18. *tlachcotecatl*. auh in yehhuatl tlatoani: niman quinnonotza in
> ixquichtin calpixque, petlacalcatl, aztacalcatl: cuauhnahuac
> calpixqui, huaxtepec calpixqui, cuetlaxtecatl: tochpanecatl:
> tziuhcoacatl, tepecuacuilcatl, huappanecatl, coaixtlahuacatl,
> tlappanecatl, tlachcotecatl, matlatzincatl, ocuiltecatl,
> xilotepecatl, atotonilcatl, axocopanecatl, itzcuincuitlapilcatl,
> atocpanecatl, ayotzintepecatl, . the ruler then consulted with
> all the majordomos -- the men of the petlacalco and of the
> aztacalco, the majordomos of quauhnauac and uaxtepec, and [those]
> of cuetlaxtlan, tochpan, tziuhcoac, tepequacuilco, uapan,
> coatlixtlauacan, tlappan, tlachco, matlatzinco, ocuillan,
> xilotepec, atotonilco, axocopan, itzcuincuitlapilco, atocpan, and
> ayotzintepec. . <tlachtli-co1-te:-catl> (b.8 f.3 c.17 p.51)
>
> 19. *tlachcuauhyo*. inic tlanamaca, quipantilia in quinamaca,
> yoltica, yancuic, cualli, chicahuac, tlamachyo, tlamachtilmatli:
> apantilmatli, tlahcohuitecqui, tlachcuauhyo, tonatiuh onmani,
> tohtonatiuhio, ocelotilmatli, ocelotl, cuauhtli onicac,
> ihhuimoyahuac, tetemalacayo, xochimoyahuac, xochiteteyo,
> xoxochiteyo, cohuaxayacayo, ixnextlacuilollo, tezzacanecuillo,
> tlalpiloni ontemi, nochpaltilmatli, tlauhtilmatli,
> xochpallaxochio, tlahcalhuaztilmatli, tlacalhuaz tlaxochio,
> tlalpilli, colotlalpilli, teneh, tlatentilli, tenchilnahuayo,
> tenixyo, tenmolonqui, tempozonqui, tenmimiliuhqui, tenchapanqui. .
> In order to deal, he seeks out that which he sells: the fresh, the
> new, the good, the strong, the designed -- designed capes, capes
> to be worn; those of a weave not compressed; those of a ball-court
> eagle design, those with a sun design on them -- provided with
> suns; ocelot capes -- the ocelot, the eagle stand thereon; those
> with a design of scattered flowers, a design of stone discs, a
> scattered flower design; with flowered borders -- with flowers on
> the border; with serpent mask designs; those painted with bloodied
> faces; those with a curved labret, with bead pendants extending;
> carmine-colored capes, red capes, those with yellow flower
> designs; capes with the blowgun design -- those with the blowgun
> design with flowers; netted capes, scorpion-colored netted capes;
> those having a border, having a trimming, having red eyelets --
> bordered with eyes; having fluffed, frayed borders, rolled seams,
> fringed borders. . <tlachtli-cua:uhtli-yo:tl1> (b.10 f.4 c.17
> p.64)
>
> 20. *tlachtemalacatl*. auh in itech tlachmatl, ontetl
> tlachtemalacatl manca, . and on the walls were two stone, ball
> court rings. . <tlachtli-tetl1-malacatl> (b.8 f.2 c.10 p.29)
>
> 21. *tlachtli*. tlachtli icpac, huel in cuica quetzalcoxcox, . over
> the ball court the fine pheasant sings . <tlachtli> (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.231)
>
> 22. *tlachtli*. i cecni quitecac tlachtli zan moch tetl, .
> elsewhere he built a ball court all of stone. . <tlachtli> (b.3
> f.3 c.14 p.37)
>
> 23. *tlachtli*. quitlanitoa in ixquich tlazotli in teocuitlatl, in
> teocuitlacozcatl, in chalchihuitl, in teoxihuitl, in tlazotli, in
> tlazotilmatli, in tlazomaxtlatl, in milli, in calli, cotzehuatl,
> teocuitlamatemecatl, quetzalmachoncotl, xomoihhuitilmatli,
> cacahuapetlatl in oncan netlanihua, itoca tlachtli: . they
> wagered [in this game] all [manner of] costly goods -- gold,
> golden necklaces, green stone, fine turquoise, slaves, precious
> capes, valuable breech clouts, cultivated fields, houses, leather
> leg bands, gold bracelets, arm bands of quetzal feathers, duck
> feather capes, bales of cacao -- [these] were wagered there in the
> game called tlachtli. . <tlachtli> (b.8 f.2 c.10 p.29)
>
> 24. *tlachtli*. auh in oncan huel inepantla tlachtli, onoca tlecotl
> tlaxotlalli in tlalli, . and there, in the very center of the
> ball court, was a line, drawn upon the ground. . <tlachtli> (b.8
> f.2 c.10 p.29)
>
Gordon Whittaker <gwhitta at gwdg.de> wrote:
> Dear Joe and Fritz,
>
> Thanks for your input on tlachtli. Joe, that's quite an impressive
> database you have! From your citations it would seem that tlachtli
> primarily names the ball court, but could be extended (as Molina attests
> as well) to include the game itself.
>
> The specific name of the game, ollamatiliztli and the like, as opposed to
> the court it was played on, presumably also turns up in the Classical
> Nahuatl corpus, but I have no idea with regard to its frequency. The index
> to the Florentine Codex available at the SUP-INFOR web site lists only the
> following related forms:
>
> ollama II-239(3)
> vllama VIII-29
> ollamaloni X-87
> ollamaloz VIII-58
> ollamanj VIII-29
>
> Fritz, I agree with you that there's nothing unusual about the appearance
> of Nahuatl tlach-tli. However, given the long history of Zapotec and
> Mixtec ball courts -- from which the Aztec-style court derives --, the
> chances are good, I think, that the word is an adaptation of Zapotec làchi
> 'pelota de los indios'. It is so listed in the Junta Colombina dictionary
> (and presumably also in Córdova, although I don't have it at hand right
> now). It is also the term for "campo llano" in general. Nahuatl, of
> course, cannot have an initial l, so a form with initial tl or il are the
> typical alternatives to dropping it.
>
> Best,
> Gordon
>
--
*****************************
John F. Schwaller
President
SUNY - Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Ave.
Potsdam, NY 13676
Tel. 315-267-2100
FAX 315-267-2496
_______________________________________________
Nahuatl mailing list
Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
More information about the Nahuat-l
mailing list