present progressive and more

Sat Apr 3 01:46:16 UTC 2010

One of our Nahuatlahtoh oracles Joe Campbell took a brief moment from 
his many projects these days to write me to add something to this 
discussion that supports Tomas's original view of the verb that Ken was 
dealing with.

I'm sure Joe won't mind my sharing this:

"...the VERB(PRT)-TI-VERB2 construction (where the VERB2 is something 
"like" an auxiliary and shows rhythm or continuance or maintenance) 
matches the "ihcuiliuhtica" word.

It seems to me that it is based on "ihcuilli" and the "ihui"
verber.  Then with the preterit form and the -ti- ligature, it
looks like one of the series of AUXes (nemi, quetza, huetzi, mani,
ehua, huitz, quiza, tlalia, tlehco, teca, ..., ihca, o, yauh,
calaqui, etc.).  Taking the example of a verb like "ezquiztica",
wouldn't it be possible to compare to the English and Spanish
progressive construction? -- 'it is exiting in a blood way'?"

I traced the analysis I offered that was contrary to Tomas's to a 
grammar notebook from first-year Nahuatl, and then I traced the notes 
back to Joe's and Dr. Karttunen's grammar, chapter 25, page 313. They 
don't indicate that the forms they offer are "present progressive," nor 
do they translate them as such. I remember hearing that ti-cah forms a 
present progressive verb, but I never truly accepted that.

So, my apologies to Tomas, as I thought we were talking about two 
different grammatical animals, when in fact we're talking about the 
same one. (I think! :-).

But, NOW, I'm concerned, especially after John's posting about how 
Nahuatl in his part of Mexico uses the ti-cah construction whether we 
actually understand how the classical language used it. My sense from 
day one is that "choca" means *either* 'she/he/it cries' or 'she/he/it 
is crying'; in other words, "choca" always has had the sense from my 
experience of very "present progressive".

Perhaps this leads to why Joe and Dr. Kartunnen translated 
"chicauhticah" as "it is strong; strong and stable" and not with a 
"present progressive" translation, such as "he is being strong (at the 
moment)...but we know he's going to collapse any moment...

Does anyone have any real experience to offer that might shed light on 
this topic? It's one area of Nahuatl grammar that has often revisited 
me. Joe says that it ti-cah shows "rhythm or continuance or 
maintenance". Maybe that's the answer to all my questions--I only ever 
understood the maintenance sense of this construction. (I think :-)

Best,

Michael

Quoting Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>:

> THREE TYPOS OF MY OWN BELOW:
>
>
>
> Quoting Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>:
>
>> Ken, Tomas, y otros listeros,
>>
>> The explanation below is not quite right, I don't think. Let's back up
>> for a moment.
>>
>> The original form that Ken wrote was "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica".
>>
>> We can write this in, shall we say?, the Andrewsian Alphabet as
>>
>> in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuticah
>
>
> THIS SHOULD READ:
>
> in i:tech ixci (?) ihcuiliuhticah
>
>>
>>
>> I'm assuming "ixci" is an original copy error or a Ken keyboarding
>> error standing for icxi 'foot/feet'.
>>
>>
>> ihcuiliutica
>
> AND THIS SHOULD BE
>
> ihcuiliuhtica
>
>
> is not a "present progressive". This is an example of how
>> an intransitive verb can join with -ti-cah to produce what is usually
>> translated into English as an adjective, sometimes a noun:
>>
>> chica:hua  become strong
>> chica:uticah
>
> AND THAT SHOULD BE  chica:uhticah
>
>
>
>
>
> it is strong, or something that is strong
>>
>> tlacoxe:lihui  divide in half
>> tlahcoxe:liuhticah  it is divided in half; something divided in half
>>
>>
>> 'adjacent to the foot/feet it is written, there is written, something
>> got written' (I like the last one best).
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting t_amaya at megared.net.mx:
>>
>>>
>>> 	Hallo Ken Kitayama,
>>>
>>> 	  BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }
>>> My first reading is. "on his foot, it is written ...", my seccond: "on
>>> his foot, it is painted"
>>>
>>> 	Explaining: ca and oc (tica and toc) can be used for a resultant
>>> state, if you want to express the progressive tense you have to say
>>> e.g. tlahcuiliuhtica, quiihcuiliuhtica (he is writting (something), he
>>> is painting it); i.e. we have to use the "thing" or "accusative"
>>> particle.
>>>
>>> 	For me, according to the context, the verb may mean "to write" or
>>> "to paint".
>>>
>>> 	Exemple in nahuat of Cuetzalan: in quinequía, choloz ilpihtoc
>>> (ilpihtica) yn axno (the donkey is tied because he wanted to escape)
>>>
>>> 	You also have the particle tech, whose meaning is precisely "on".
>>> Pay attention: depending on the context the text could mean: "on his
>>> food, that is painted ..." ; it depends if you read: yn itech yxci,
>>> ihcuiliuhtica, or: in itech ixci ihcuiliuhtica.
>>>
>>> 	Exemples: Yn itech imetz (foot in Cuetzalan nahuat), ihcuiliuhtica
>>> ce totot; on his foot, it is painted a bird. In itech
>>> imetz-ihcuiliuhtica, motta ce totot (on his painted foot one can see a
>>> bird).
>>>
>>> 	I hope it helps you
>>>
>>> 	Nimitztlapaloa.
>>>
>>> 	Tomas Amaya
>>> On Sun 28/03/10 6:30 PM , "Ken Kitayama" kk2443 at columbia.edu sent:
>>>  My name is Ken Kitayama; I am a senior at Columbia University
>>> working on a project dealing with corporal images in colonial New
>>> Spain.  I have come across a 17th century document that uses the
>>> phrase "ynitech yxci yhcuiliuhtica".  I have two questions.  First,
>>> from my understanding, the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" as written is in the
>>> present progressive tense, but this interpretation does not make sense
>>> within the rest of the document.  So I was wondering if anyone had
>>> seen the "-ca" prefix used as a verb of a resultant state ("it is
>>> painted/inscribed").  Secondly, I am having trouble interpreting the
>>> meaning of the verb "yhcuiliuhtica" itself.  I would like to know
>>> whether it has to do with the verb "to paint" as in applying pigment
>>> to the surface of the skin, or if it has to do more with an
>>> interpretation like "to inscribe", where the skin is actually broken
>>> and pigment is introduced inside the skin itself.  Thanks for your
>>> help.
>>> --
>>> Ken Kitayama
>>> Columbia College 2010
>>> 3620 Lerner Hall
>>> New York, NY 10027
>>> -------------------------
>>> Este e-mail fue enviado usando Webmail Meg at red.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>

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