ihcequi doing it=?windows-1252?Q?=92s_?=applicative thing
Jonathan Amith
jdanahuatl at gmail.com
Wed Nov 2 17:37:30 UTC 2011
Hi,
I couldn't find uitecqui in my version of Molina. Rémi Siméon has uitecqui
as "golpeado, fustigado, corregido, castigado" and has uitequi as a
transitive.
There are some transitives nominalized without object slots filled by a
nonreferential (te:-, tla-, ne-), though perhaps there are other analyses.
Thus ti:tlantli (cf. ti:tlani; though the passive would seem to be ti:tlano
and an alternative is ti:tlanoni 'mensajero').
Also ichtecqui "ladrón", which may follow a pattern of wi:tequi. RS lists
ichtequi as both intransitive and transitive. Note RS's applicative form,
used reflexively as 'convertirse en ladrón'.
There are other verbs that have unusual transitivity patterns, e.g, mati.
best, jonathan
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:01 PM, SASAKI Mitsuya <
hawatari21centuries at gmail.com> wrote:
> Jonathan,
>
> Thanks. Your point made me realize that I was quite unconscious about the
> difference between the two, the anticausative and the agentless passive.
>
> Among the various kinds of V1/V2 relations you illustrated, the relation
> between ihseki(Vt)/ihseki(Vi) looks similar to, as you noted, those in the
> Balsas examples of TLA-less intransitivization, with backgrounded (perhaps
> culturally specified) agent.
>
> Maybe corresponding to this, Molina's dictionary has hui:tecqui "one who
> beats" (from hui:tequi "to beat, azotar") for the translation of "herido",
> as if hui:tequi were an intransitive verb "to be beaten", but I'm not sure
> if I can say this is another example of ihcequi-type V1/V2 alternation.
>
>
> Mitsuya SASAKI
> The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
> ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.**jp <ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
>
> (As for me I should confess that I've only dealt with Classical Nahuatl
> data so far, and now am trying to get in touch with a modern speaker...)
>
>
> (2011/11/02 22:50), Jonathan Amith wrote:
>
>> Hi Mitsuya (is that correct),
>>
>> What is your area of study. I'm sort of disconnected. In central
>> Guerrero there is a lot of relexification but the morphosyntax is not as
>> affected. In the Sierra Norte de Puebla there is a type of language
>> ideology of purity that leads to all sorts of calques and invented
>> terms. Thus from Spanish "me sale" (it turns out for me, as in "no me
>> sale", it doesn't give me results) SNP has ne:chki:sa ! Likewise yowi is
>> "transitivized" as ne:chyahki "me fue" as in "me fue bien") and tikwi is
>> reflexively marked though an intransitive motikwi a calque from Spanish
>> "se prende". These are all quite old. In Guerrero young kids start to
>> say "nimoto:ka:" verbal morphology on the noun stem to:ka:- for 'me
>> llamo'. In SNP they say nimono:tsa.
>>
>> Likewise tla-/ta- is being used differently. Young kids in Oapan say
>> tlakiawi (maybe a little different than kiawi indicating a place that
>> has a lot of rain rather than the event itself) and tlamomowi 'to be
>> scared (in a place). In SNP one finds mono:tsa 'it is called (person,
>> object) and motano:tsa 'it is called (a place such as a village)'.
>>
>> Reflexively marked bodily function verbs in SNP that beging with ihC
>> retain or lose the /o/ of the reflexive depending on the nature of the
>> event
>>
>> ihso:ta (never expressed without an object)
>>
>> mihso:ta 'to throw up'
>>
>> moihso:ta 'to throw up on oneself'
>>
>> kihso:ta 'to throw up [e.g., blood]
>>
>> kihso:ta 'to throw up on [e.g., a person]
>>
>> Verbs that are V1/V2 with no morphological change show a lot of
>> different types of relations
>>
>> ahsi (V1) vs. ahsi (V2) are quite different 'to arrive (there) [vs.
>> ehko] and 'to catch' (an object thrown, a prisoner fleeing)
>>
>> posteki (V1) vs. posteki (V2) 'to break' (sth long and brittle, like a
>> rod or tree branch) can be a real intransitive with a patientive S of V1
>> but no implied agentivity, i.e., sth can just break with no volitional
>> agentivity. This is what Dixon in his book on valency change refers to
>> as ambitransitive.
>>
>> Balsas:
>>
>> to:ka (V1) vs. -to:ka (V2) the 'intransitive 'to:ka' has a culturally
>> specified meaning of 'to plant maize' and in Balsas can never take tla-
>> (but can take te:- with the sense of 'to bury'). In SNP one has tato:ka
>> with the meaning of 'to plant maize'. In Balsas then, absence of tla-
>> is culturally specific. Tuggy has talked about tla- as culturally
>> specified object (e.g., in Balsas o:tlapilo:to is understood outside of
>> any defining context as 'he went to fish (hanging lines from stakes in
>> the river) and there is some literature on the culturally specific
>> meaning of these types of "antipassives" Thus English 'I am eating' has
>> a culturally specified meaning of "a meal"
>>
>> ihseki (V1) vs. ihseki (V2) this is more the case, as you note, of an
>> implied agent. In Nahuatl agents of passives can never be expressed
>> obliquely (whereas objects of antipassives can be! at least in Balsas,
>> with ika). So I am not sure whether one is best to characterize this an
>> an anticausative or an agentless passive. Any thoughts? It is different
>> from the case in posteki as ihseki can never occur without human
>> intervention. In a way it is like SNP chi:wi though without the
>> morphological derivation.
>>
>> Amberber in the book by Dixon and Aikhenvald notes, p. 315: "If an event
>> encoded by a transitive predicate can be conceptualized as taking place
>> without the intervention of an external causer, the event can be cast in
>> the anticausative" Since ihseki cannot occur in this manner, then
>> perhaps your use of anticausative is different than that implied by
>> Amberber (and Levin and Rappaport, whom he cites).
>>
>> Cf. notsakwa in Balsas. It can be passive or anticausative
>>
>> niman notsakwas ka:mpa o:timotek 'the place/cut where you cut yourself
>> will heal (close up) rapidly' No agent
>>
>> ma notsakwa 'let it be closed' (a door, e.g, a group of people is
>> leaving and I say ma notsakwa as a suggestion about the door or window
>> but without an overtly expressed agent)
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 10:19 AM, SASAKI Mitsuya
>> <hawatari21centuries at gmail.com <mailto:hawatari21centuries@**gmail.com<hawatari21centuries at gmail.com>
>> >>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Es increíble qué rápido encuentras los buenos ejemplos.
>> Entonces, quizás podemos decir que ihcequi tenía dos estructuras
>> argumentales distintas. No sabía que este tema era tan interesante.
>>
>>
>> Mitsuya SASAKI
>> The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
>> ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac._**_jp
>> <mailto:ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-**tokyo.ac.jp<ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
>> >
>>
>>
>> (2011/11/01 22:38), John Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> Piyali Mitsuya,
>> Efectivamente, ihcequi tiene una forma tanto
>> intransitiva [ihcequi (ihcequi). it toasts, it
>> roasts.<ihcequi>. b.11 f.14 p.142|)] como transitiva [ihcequi ,
>> qu- (qu-ihcequi). they roast it; they toast it.<p33- ihcequi>.
>> b.2 f.7 p.127|].
>> Y sí, ¡qué chido!
>> John
>>
>> On Nov 1, 2011, at 7:55 AM, SASAKI Mitsuya wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks for the comment and the data.
>> Now the only remaining problem with this construal is that
>> we have to assume two "ihcequi"'s, intransitive and
>> transitive, like "ahci(vt/vi)".
>> Que chida academia!
>>
>> Mitsuya SASAKI
>> The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
>> ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac._**_jp
>> <mailto:ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-**tokyo.ac.jp<ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
>> >
>>
>>
>> (2011/11/01 11:50), John Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> Ok Mitsuya and demás listeros,
>> Half of the temporarily constituted and soon to
>> be dissolved Nahuatl morphology academy here at Notre
>> Dame thinks that perhaps:
>> 1. te-, “non-specific human object” + ihcequi
>> (intransitive), “corn toasts or is toasted” + -ia
>> (applicative) + -ya (imperfect tense suffix) =
>> teihcequiaya, “corn was toasted for people”
>> 2. qui, “3rd person singular specific object” + ihcequi
>> (transitive), “to toast something” + ya, (imperfect
>> tense suffix) = quihcequiya, “she was toasting it”
>> and the other half is reluctant to make a commitment to
>> a firm decision on the matter.
>> John
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