Fw: Totlahtol

Mon Sep 2 14:59:15 UTC 2013

Carochi has served very well. No question. However, as far I as I can 
tell, only Carochi and Launey use Carochi's orthographic system. If you 
look around, that orthography is not where the modern study of the 
language is going. That's what I meant by my "utterly baffling" thought.

I explained also in a letter to Mr. Guillaume that some rather 
"baffling" ideas about Nahuatl grammar are found in Launey, and I'm 
confident I didn't find all of the mistakes. In the end, I would 
recommend having a copy of Launey on your shelf, but not as the sole 
source of your Nahuatl knowledge, and certainly not as a book used in a 
classroom unless the professor is knowledgeable enough to 1) catch 
Launey's errors and 2) bring enormous amounts of material written in 
the non-Carochi orthographic system so that students can be in the flow 
of modern study.

Best,

Michael

Quoting Michael Swanton <mwswanton at yahoo.com>:

>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: Michael Swanton <mwswanton at yahoo.com>
> To: Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>;
> "nahuatl at lists.famsi.org" <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol
>
>
>
> The "Carochi orthography" was the most sophisticated orthography used
> during the colonial period. We owe a great deal of our understanding
> of "Classical Nahuatl" to it. I find McCafferty's comments about it
> having "little value" to be utterly baffling.
>
> Michael Swanton
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 2:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Totlahtol
>
>
> I am not a Nahuatl scholar, but as an outsider I think that the Carochi
> orthography (perhaps with some modifications to facilitate its typeability,
> especially concerning th glottal stop) is still the best orthography to
> represent Classical Nahuatl. I am sorry to say that using an orthography
> that neglect vowel length is doing a disservice to language learners.
> Launey's manual is still in my opinion the best available introduction to
> Classical Nahuatl.
>
>
> Guillaume Jacques
>
>
> 2013/9/1 Michael McCafferty
> <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>
>> John,
>>
>> I'm happy to hear about this. "Anthropological Linguistics" will soon
>> publish my review of Michel Launey's Nahuatl grammar translated to English,
>> and one of the bedeviling aspects of his work is the perpetuation of
>> Carochi's orthography. The review was held up for a while as the editor
>> insisted that I use Carochi's orthography in describing various aspects of
>> Nahuatl, and that was difficult for me as I see little value in using it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
>>
>>   Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
>>>          "Totlahtol" is a Series of the University of Warsaw, IDIEZ and
>>>
> other
>>> collaborating institutions, for publishing monolingual works in all
>>> variants of Modern Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl. Works are
>>> standardized to the orthography of Campbell/Andrews/Karttunen. We
>>> hope to accomplish two things with this Series: 1. Get monolingual
>>> works of Nahuatl from all variants across space and time into the
>>> hands of native speakers, especially young students; 2. By rigorously
>>> standardizing the orthography of all variants across space and time,
>>> and "flooding the market" with these works, we hope to break the
>>> eighty-year political impasse that has prevented the orthographical
>>> standardization of Nahuatl. The first work, in the sub-series,
>>> "Toconehuan", is a children's' book, "Malintzin itlahtol", written by
>>> Refugio Nava of the University of Tlaxcala. The paper version is now
>>>
> being distributed, free of charge, in Nahua communities and in
>>> educational institutions. You may download a free pdf copy with the
>>> following link
>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.**com/u/15911797/malintzin_**itlahtol.pdf<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15911797/malintzin_itlahtol.pdf>
>>> or go to www.macehualli.org under Publications. When you read the
>>> book, you will not only recognize the orthography, but you will be
>>> able to appreciate how Tlaxcallan Nahuatl has evolved over the last
>>> 500 years. Have fun!
>>> John
>>>
>>> John Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>> Research Scholar in Nahuatl Studies and
>>> Academic Director of the Yale-IDIEZ
> Nahuatl Language Institute,
>>> Yale University;
>>> Visiting scholar, Faculty of Artes Liberales
>>> University of Warsaw;
>>> Professor of Nahua language and culture
>>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas;
>>> Director, Zacatecas Institute of Teaching and Research in Ethnology
>>> Tacuba 152, int. 43
>>> Centro Histórico
>>> Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
>>> Mexico
>>> Work: +52 (492) 925-3415
>>> Home: +52 (492) 768-6048
>>> Mobile (Mexico): +52 1 (492) 103-0195
>>> Mobile (US): (615) 649-2790
>>> idiez at me.com
>>> www.macehualli.org
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> Nahuatl mailing list
>>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/**listinfo/nahuatl<http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Jacques
> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
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