Standardization of Nahuatl

Fri Jun 13 22:11:20 UTC 2014

La metx iehkoltial ze poaliztli in no zihtzin netx mo ihliliaia.

-In Texinke, Xiklimonti oan in kaloilanke(San Nicolas de los Ranchos, , San
Lucas Atzalan y San Pedro Yacuitlalpan de Puebla) ki piah nin tlahtol oan
koak tik in kakih tik matih ke ahmo toh kaliknioan.

-In no kompaletzin nealtikankatl (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla) nik
moh tlahtxitxioiliaiah oan oh ki mihtaliaia ke (nih kompaletzin)  o ki mo
tlazohtiliaia, oan oh kih mo tlapahpahtiliaia nin tlahtoltzin, tlen
tlahtoli ahmoh ki mo piliahia oh ki mo aniliaia, ken “ahtxio”, “ohi”, oh mo
txioahia ok zeh tlahtoli ohkatxi zente.

Koak in no zihtzin oh kin mo tlatxitxioliaiah in tlakame tlen okzeh in
altepeoh, oh kih matxiliaia keh in no zihtzin oh kih moh nekiltizkiaia ki
mo zaloltiz in nin tlahtol, oan o mo ioloh mahtia.

In koak oh ni tekit in CONAFE o tihkatka ti tlahtoliknime naoatl Veracruz
ome tlakame, naoatl Hidalgo Ome Tlakame, aik oh tih mo tlahtolanaia notxin
oh tik nehkia in to tlahtol man mo tenmahti ipan mo olohlozke okzehki
tlahtolti.

Netx nonotzaia ze no maiknio tle altepeoh Tlaxkalan, kon oh mo txioaiah
ipan mo ololoaia toh tlahtol iknioan oah oh mo tlahtol anaia ken tih
tlahkoihlozke notxtin.

Nik nehmilia keh koak tik kahkahoazke in to tlahtol oan in toknioh ih
tlahtol tik ahnazke, ih koak ti mo ohlolozke.

Les comparto una historia que mi abuelo me contaba.

-Los San Nocolasca, San Luqueños y  San Pedreños(San Nicolás de los
Ranchos, , San Lucas Atzalan y San Pedro Yacuitlalpan de Puebla) tenían su
habla y cuando los escuchas sabes que no son nuestros vecinos(de la
comunidad/localidad/pueblo)

-Mi compadre San Aventureño (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla), lo
imitaba y decía (su compadre) que lo apreciaba mucho, e intercambiaban
palabras, que no tenía, las tomaba como “semilla”, “difícil”, y se hacía
una lengua más completa.

Cuando mi abuelo imitaba las personas de otra localidad,  sentían que mi
abuelo deseaba aprender su forma de hablar y entraban en confianza.

Cuando Trabaje en CONAFE estábamos hablantes del náhuatl, Nahuatl de
Veracruz dos personas, náhuatl de Hidalgo dos personas y nunca nos pusimos
de acuerdo, queríamos que nuestras lenguas fuera base para anexar otras
palabras (sin elegir una).

Reflexiono, que no nos aferremos a nuestra lengua, intentemos tomar la
forma del habla de nuestro hermano en ese momento tomaremos un solo sentido.

I share a story my grandfather told me.

-The San Nocolasca, San Luqueños and San Pedreños (San Nicolas de los
Ranchos, San Lucas and San Pedro Atzalan Yacuitlalpan of Puebla) had their
speech and know when the tracks are not our neighbors (community / town /
village)

-My compadre San Aventureño (San Buena Ventura Nealtican Puebla), imitated
and said (his compadre) who loved him, and changed words, which has not, I
took as "seed", "difficult", and became a language complete.

When my grandfather imitated people from other region, felt that my
grandfather wanted to learn their speech and entered confidence.

When I was CONAFE, we were Nahuatl speakers, Veracruz Nahuatl two people,
two people Hidalgo Nahuatl and we never make a deal our tongues out basis
to append other words (not chosen).

I reflect, not cling to our language, try to take the form of our brother
speech then take one way.

2014-06-13 7:01 GMT-05:00 Mario E. Aguilar <micc2 at cox.net>:

> I believe that forcing modern day Nahuatlahtoh to write....speak.... think
> in "the Classical Nahuatl" of  Moctekwzuma and Sahagun would be akin to
> forcing Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians to speak, write and think in
> the
> Castilian of Cervantes..... or forcing Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, to do the
> same in Shakespeare's English.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org
> [mailto:nahuatl-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of seth wolitz
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:29 PM
> To: John Sullivan
> Cc: list nahuatl discussion; Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] Standardization of Nahuatl
>
> Dear John: Your main position ia of course well taken and I support it
> fully
> but frankly you did not make a strong case. You needed to present it with a
> point by point logical linearity that eschews the clearly colonialist
> misguided persuasion of the Church to create a nahuatl mass in some
> concocted standard nahuatl.. It is astounding that there is no copy of the
> mass in nahautal form the 16th century when they were so busy prosetyzing?
> Can this be? Check on that! In any case, you have your hands full here and
> a
> clear polemic i before you. Good Luck!
> Seth
> On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:32 PM, John Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Notequixpoyohuan,
> >       The importante thing is not to create a standard version of
> Nahuatl.
> Rather, we need to promote communication among native speakers of all
> variants. A standardized orthography for all variants across space and time
> would go a long way toward facilitating this. Carochi is a good staring
> point here, but his system has been improved by Andrew/Campbell/Karttunen.
> >       As native speakers communicate across variants, they will begin to
> understand each other and slowly share words and structures with each
> other.
> A small, multi-variant manual of common words and structures would also
> promote inter variant communication.
> >       There is no such thing as a variant called Classical Nahuatl. This.
> There were at least as many variants in the past as there are now.
> Classical
> Nahuatl refers to the corpus of documents composed in Nahuatl using
> alphabetic writing during the colonial period (which in turn doesn´t make
> too much sense because the writing continued after Mexican Independence).
> As
> we progress in our study of this corpus we become more and more aware of
> these varietal differences. So….. Classical Nahuatl is not what the four
> tlahtoqueh you speak of spoke. And even if they did, would this justify
> their variant substituting for all others? I hope we understand today that
> multilingualism/multiculturalism (read multi-variant-ism) is good for
> humanity: ethnocide is not.
> >       I heard this argument (that Classical Nahuatl be used as a modern
> lingua franca) proposed by a European friend of Miguel León Portilla a few
> years ago at the 50th anniversary of his seminario, and it sounded as
> ridiculous then as it does now. And even if it had any academic merits,
> Nahuas themselves would not accept it, and they should´t. It would be
> viewed
> as the most recent in a long tradition of impositions by outsiders.
> >       Hmm, notequixpoh Adrián, ¿por qué deberíamos consultar a tres
> académicos no-nativohablantes de náhuatl para poder traducir la misa? Y por
> último, ¿por qué crees tan importante traducir la misa al náhuatl? Ya
> estuvo
> con el trabajo misionero (y eso que soy católico), ¿no crees?
> > John
> >
> >
> > On Jun 12, 2014, at 19:49, Juan Adrián Pérez Rivera
> <jadrian.perezr at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> About the translation of a Nahuatl Catholic Mass and more things
> >>
> >> I think it's great for nahuatl to receive attention from Rome. I'm
> >> catholic, and I think it would be great to translate many catholic
> >> texts to nahuatl. BUT, I'm afraid I don't like the way things are
> >> being done.
> >>
> >> You talk about create a 'simple' and 'unified nahuatl', in order to
> >> make a mass that every nahuatl speaker can easily understand. NAHUATL
> >> doesn't need this kind of changes. If you do this, you would make
> >> serious damage to this beautiful language.
> >>
> >> In my opinion, if you want to make a 'unified nahuatl', you should
> >> take classical nahuatl as reference. This is the original, the
> >> nahuatl that Cuauhtemoc, Tlacaelel, Itzcoatl and Motecuhzoma spoke.
> >> And in my opinion, if someday in the very far future, we have an
> >> agreement, Classical Nahuatl should be the standard nahuatl. Padre
> >> Horacio Carochi's grammar is the best book available to settle the
> >> nahuatl rules and correct writing and meanings and pronunciation.
> >> Also, you may go to Milpa Alta, in Mexico City. In the town of Santa
> >> Ana Tlacotenco, they speak a kind of nahuatl that is very close to
> >> classical nahuatl.
> >>
> >> I'm sorry if I sound aggressive, but this is a problem that should be
> >> consulted with expert people, not with bishops. Many groups around
> >> Mexico claim to have created their unified nahuatl, and the result is
> >> that we have dozens of 'correct' nahuatl idioms. I insist, we need to
> >> consult with people like Dr. León Portilla, Dr. López Austin, Dr.
> >> Launey, etc. etc. in order to have an excellent translation of
> >> catholic mass, I would really like that.
> >>
> >> If you speak spanish, I recommend this article from the serious
> >> magazine Estudios de cultura nahuatl:
> >> http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn4
> >> 2/874.pdf
> >>
> >> Here the author recommends to use classical nahuatl as the standard
> >> and explain the reasons why we should do this.
> >>
> >> We need to teach people form little towns the correct grammar of
> >> their own language, because many of them don't know how to write it
> >> correctly, and that's why there are many dialects nowadays. Regards.
> >>
> >> Achcauhtli
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
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