subject prefix
Magnus Pharao Hansen
magnuspharao at gmail.com
Wed Mar 19 17:33:34 UTC 2014
Understanding this aspect of Nahuatl morphosyntax, really requires a deeper
analysis of Nahuatl syntax like the ones carried out by Andrews and Launey.
The fact that ti is a subject prefix and yet is used in cases like
"Xitechpalehui
in timomacehualhuan" is the characterizing feature of classic Nahuatl
syntax. Syntacticians like Andres and Launey both end up saying that this
means that the actual structure of the Nahuatl sentence is not "Help us,
your vassals" but rather "help us we who are your vassals". In the same way
the actual structure of the Nahuatl sentence "xiquitta in chichi" is not
"look at the dog" but "look at it, (it is a) dog". I dont know of anyone
who have proposed a better analysis of the Nahuat syntax structure, even
though it does challenge us to look beyond the English translation when we
try to understand the grammatical structure of Nahuatl.
There are tonnes of relational words with first and second person
inflection. But the two words that you use as examples are not relational
words but adverbs. Adverbs do not agree with anything because they are not
arguments of the verb.
Again this is stuff that you can read in depth analyses of in all of the
main Nahuatl grammars from Carochi to Andrews, Launey and Lockhart.
Best,
Magnus
On 19 March 2014 11:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. subject prefix (John Sullivan)
> 2. Re: subject prefix (John Sullivan)
> 3. Re: subject prefix (Michael McCafferty)
> 4. ceyoc tlamantli tlen tlapacholli (John Sullivan)
> 5. Re: subject prefix (Joost Kremers)
> 6. Re: subject prefix (Michael McCafferty)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:05:57 +0100
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> We are having a grammatical discussion here in Warsaw concerning the
> nature of the Nahuatl subject prefix. I guess you could say that ti-
> functions as a subject in:
> a) titlacah, We are people
> b) tinehnemih, We are walking
> But what about in:
> c) Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> d) topampa in timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> Iʻm using these examples because the “subject prefix” is explicit. But the
> question actually arose after looking at an example like:
> e) niquitta in chichi, Iʻm looking at the dog. (which I would
> literally translate as “I´m looking at it, the dog"
> In this case, some people say that there is not even a meaningful Ø- at
> the beginning of chichi. Now I know that there is. But I want to know
> exactly what it is doing. It seems that what we have called a “subject
> prefix” can serve:
> 1. as the subject of a noun, i.e. titlacah, We are people
> 2. as the subject of a verb, i.e. tinehnemih, We are walking
> 3. as something that links the noun referent of a verbal object prefix to
> that very verbal object prefix via the category of person/number (in
> conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e., Xitechpalehui in
> timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> 4. as something that links the noun referent of relational prefix to that
> very relational prefix via the category of person/number (in conjunction
> with the noun´s number suffix), i.e., topampa in timomacehualhuan, because
> of us, your vassals
> So the question is, Is there a better term that “subject” to refer
> to the “subject prefixes”? Or are the Poles just unnecessarily complicating
> things?
> John
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: Mccafferty Michael <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Cc: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 23:24:36 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> Thanks Michael, this is pretty much the way I understand it. I think
> Andrews calls them “personal pronouns”.
> John
>
> On Mar 18, 2014, at 22:38, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > I understand what you're talking about in terms of the "alien"
> > structure of Nahuatl, in terms of its being a language composed of
> > "nuclear clauses," as Andrews calls them, which is not what
> > Indo-European languages are about.
> >
> > For me "niquitta in chichi" is more like "I see him, which is a dog",
> > and that "inner" translation helps me in seeing the nuclear clause
> > nature of Nahuatl. But I agree that there is a zero prefix before
> > "chichi".
> >
> > From this perspective these "yolcameh" you're talking about are indeed
> > subject prefixes.
> >
> > I think there might be a challenge is see these subject prefixes as
> > indeed subject prefixes because of the nature of Indo-European
> > languages.
> >
> > I hope I have somewhat understood your question.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> >
> >> We are having a grammatical discussion here in Warsaw concerning the
> >> nature of the Nahuatl subject prefix. I guess you could say that ti-
> >> functions as a subject in:
> >> a) titlacah, We are people
> >> b) tinehnemih, We are walking
> >> But what about in:
> >> c) Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> >> d) topampa in timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> >> I?m using these examples because the ?subject prefix? is explicit.
> >> But the question actually arose after looking at an example like:
> >> e) niquitta in chichi, I?m looking at the dog. (which I would
> >> literally translate as ?I´m looking at it, the dog"
> >> In this case, some people say that there is not even a meaningful Ø-
> >> at the beginning of chichi. Now I know that there is. But I want to
> >> know exactly what it is doing. It seems that what we have called a
> >> ?subject prefix? can serve:
> >> 1. as the subject of a noun, i.e. titlacah, We are people
> >> 2. as the subject of a verb, i.e. tinehnemih, We are walking
> >> 3. as something that links the noun referent of a verbal object
> >> prefix to that very verbal object prefix via the category of
> >> person/number (in conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e.,
> >> Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> >> 4. as something that links the noun referent of relational prefix to
> >> that very relational prefix via the category of person/number (in
> >> conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e., topampa in
> >> timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> >> So the question is, Is there a better term that ?subject? to refer
> >> to the ?subject prefixes?? Or are the Poles just unnecessarily
> >> complicating things?
> >> John
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:38:27 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> John,
>
> I understand what you're talking about in terms of the "alien" structure
> of Nahuatl, in terms of its being a language composed of "nuclear clauses,"
> as Andrews calls them, which is not what Indo-European languages are about.
>
> For me "niquitta in chichi" is more like "I see him, which is a dog", and
> that "inner" translation helps me in seeing the nuclear clause nature of
> Nahuatl. But I agree that there is a zero prefix before "chichi".
>
> From this perspective these "yolcameh" you're talking about are indeed
> subject prefixes.
>
> I think there might be a challenge is see these subject prefixes as indeed
> subject prefixes because of the nature of Indo-European languages.
>
> I hope I have somewhat understood your question.
>
> Best,
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
>
> We are having a grammatical discussion here in Warsaw concerning the
>> nature of the Nahuatl subject prefix. I guess you could say that ti-
>> functions as a subject in:
>> a) titlacah, We are people
>> b) tinehnemih, We are walking
>> But what about in:
>> c) Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
>> d) topampa in timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
>> I?m using these examples because the ?subject prefix? is explicit.
>> But the question actually arose after looking at an example like:
>> e) niquitta in chichi, I?m looking at the dog. (which I would
>> literally translate as ?I´m looking at it, the dog"
>> In this case, some people say that there is not even a meaningful Ø-
>> at the beginning of chichi. Now I know that there is. But I want to
>> know exactly what it is doing. It seems that what we have called a
>> ?subject prefix? can serve:
>> 1. as the subject of a noun, i.e. titlacah, We are people
>> 2. as the subject of a verb, i.e. tinehnemih, We are walking
>> 3. as something that links the noun referent of a verbal object
>> prefix to that very verbal object prefix via the category of
>> person/number (in conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e.,
>> Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
>> 4. as something that links the noun referent of relational prefix to
>> that very relational prefix via the category of person/number (in
>> conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e., topampa in
>> timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
>> So the question is, Is there a better term that ?subject? to refer
>> to the ?subject prefixes?? Or are the Poles just unnecessarily
>> complicating things?
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nahuatl mailing list
>> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:43:40 +0100
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] ceyoc tlamantli tlen tlapacholli
> Mis estimados,
> Going back through Andrews, it looks like he puts a zero subject
> prefix on relational words, given that it is a nuclear clause. This subject
> prefix would point to the verbal nuclear clause as a whole (I think).
> Actually I have no problem with this. Deverbal nouns that work as adverbs
> pretty much do the same thing. For example:
> a) ihciuhca titotlaloah, we are running swiftly. In this contrived example
> from Classical Nahuatl, the agentive noun, ihciuhca, does not agree in
> person/number with the subject of the verb
> b) yolic intlanehnehuiliah, you (pl.) think slowly (a comment a have
> received frequently over the years). In this example from modern Huastecan
> Nahuatl, the same thing happens, the agentive noun does not agree in
> person/number with the subject of the verb.
> So now, the question is, has anyone seen any examples of
> relational words with first or second person subject prefixes? The team
> here in Poland has found a few in Classical documents.
> John
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>
> To: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 04:01:04 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> Hi list,
>
> On Tue, Mar 18 2014, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> > I understand what you're talking about in terms of the "alien"
> > structure of Nahuatl, in terms of its being a language composed of
> > "nuclear clauses," as Andrews calls them, which is not what
> > Indo-European languages are about.
>
> It might be interesting to note, however, that it is a common assumption
> among semanticists that a noun such as "man" or "dog" or "house", etc.
> is semantically a predicate, even if it's used as an argument. In other
> words, the semantic representation of a clause such as "I see the dog"
> is something along the lines of "I see x and x is a dog".
>
> >From that perspective, Nahuatl and Indoeuropean languages are more alike
> than appearances suggest...
>
> --
> Joost Kremers
> Life has its moments
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 23:28:38 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> Absolutely! No doubt about it.
>
> Been there, done that.
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>:
>
> Hi list,
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18 2014, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> I understand what you're talking about in terms of the "alien"
>>> structure of Nahuatl, in terms of its being a language composed of
>>> "nuclear clauses," as Andrews calls them, which is not what
>>> Indo-European languages are about.
>>>
>>
>> It might be interesting to note, however, that it is a common assumption
>> among semanticists that a noun such as "man" or "dog" or "house", etc.
>> is semantically a predicate, even if it's used as an argument. In other
>> words, the semantic representation of a clause such as "I see the dog"
>> is something along the lines of "I see x and x is a dog".
>>
>> From that perspective, Nahuatl and Indoeuropean languages are more alike
>> than appearances suggest...
>>
>> --
>> Joost Kremers
>> Life has its moments
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
--
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology
Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906
*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu <magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu>*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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