Nahuatl Digest, Vol 327, Issue 1
Jacinto Acatecatl
tekuani at hotmail.es
Sat Mar 22 00:57:09 UTC 2014
hi
Frase
Traducción
Xitechpalehui
en timomacehualhuan
Ayúdanos a
nosotros los indígenas
topampa en
timomacehualhuan
Para los
indígenas
Si lo que se
quiere decir ayuda para los indígenas, en el náhuatl moderno podría
utilizarse “palehuilistle pampa to masehualtin”
Si lo que se
pretende decir yo veo al perro: podríamos decir “ neh niktah chichi/itzcuintli.
Pero cuando
se quiere decir estoy viendo un perro sonaría como lo siguiente:
Niktlatok se
chichi/itzcuitli o bien, neh niktlatok se chichi/itzcuitli
Ojala pueda
ser de ayuda, buen fin de semana.
Jacinto
Acatecatl Namictle
Jaslit8 at yahoo.com.mx
> From: nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Nahuatl Digest, Vol 327, Issue 1
> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:00:02 -0500
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. subject prefix (John Sullivan)
> 2. Re: subject prefix (John Sullivan)
> 3. Re: subject prefix (Michael McCafferty)
> 4. ceyoc tlamantli tlen tlapacholli (John Sullivan)
> 5. Re: subject prefix (Joost Kremers)
> 6. Re: subject prefix (Michael McCafferty)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:05:57 +0100
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> Message-ID: <3FD47E0C-6E15-4962-90B5-4C3172F0880C at me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> We are having a grammatical discussion here in Warsaw concerning the nature of the Nahuatl subject prefix. I guess you could say that ti- functions as a subject in:
> a) titlacah, We are people
> b) tinehnemih, We are walking
> But what about in:
> c) Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> d) topampa in timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> I?m using these examples because the ?subject prefix? is explicit. But the question actually arose after looking at an example like:
> e) niquitta in chichi, I?m looking at the dog. (which I would literally translate as ?I´m looking at it, the dog"
> In this case, some people say that there is not even a meaningful Ø- at the beginning of chichi. Now I know that there is. But I want to know exactly what it is doing. It seems that what we have called a ?subject prefix? can serve:
> 1. as the subject of a noun, i.e. titlacah, We are people
> 2. as the subject of a verb, i.e. tinehnemih, We are walking
> 3. as something that links the noun referent of a verbal object prefix to that very verbal object prefix via the category of person/number (in conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e., Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> 4. as something that links the noun referent of relational prefix to that very relational prefix via the category of person/number (in conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e., topampa in timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> So the question is, Is there a better term that ?subject? to refer to the ?subject prefixes?? Or are the Poles just unnecessarily complicating things?
> John
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 23:24:36 +0100
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: Mccafferty Michael <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Cc: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> Message-ID: <10AB199B-8042-4025-A2E9-1A5B0DDDA356 at me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Thanks Michael, this is pretty much the way I understand it. I think Andrews calls them ?personal pronouns?.
> John
>
> On Mar 18, 2014, at 22:38, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > I understand what you're talking about in terms of the "alien"
> > structure of Nahuatl, in terms of its being a language composed of
> > "nuclear clauses," as Andrews calls them, which is not what
> > Indo-European languages are about.
> >
> > For me "niquitta in chichi" is more like "I see him, which is a dog",
> > and that "inner" translation helps me in seeing the nuclear clause
> > nature of Nahuatl. But I agree that there is a zero prefix before
> > "chichi".
> >
> > From this perspective these "yolcameh" you're talking about are indeed
> > subject prefixes.
> >
> > I think there might be a challenge is see these subject prefixes as
> > indeed subject prefixes because of the nature of Indo-European
> > languages.
> >
> > I hope I have somewhat understood your question.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
> >
> >> We are having a grammatical discussion here in Warsaw concerning the
> >> nature of the Nahuatl subject prefix. I guess you could say that ti-
> >> functions as a subject in:
> >> a) titlacah, We are people
> >> b) tinehnemih, We are walking
> >> But what about in:
> >> c) Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> >> d) topampa in timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> >> I?m using these examples because the ?subject prefix? is explicit.
> >> But the question actually arose after looking at an example like:
> >> e) niquitta in chichi, I?m looking at the dog. (which I would
> >> literally translate as ?I´m looking at it, the dog"
> >> In this case, some people say that there is not even a meaningful Ø-
> >> at the beginning of chichi. Now I know that there is. But I want to
> >> know exactly what it is doing. It seems that what we have called a
> >> ?subject prefix? can serve:
> >> 1. as the subject of a noun, i.e. titlacah, We are people
> >> 2. as the subject of a verb, i.e. tinehnemih, We are walking
> >> 3. as something that links the noun referent of a verbal object
> >> prefix to that very verbal object prefix via the category of
> >> person/number (in conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e.,
> >> Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> >> 4. as something that links the noun referent of relational prefix to
> >> that very relational prefix via the category of person/number (in
> >> conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e., topampa in
> >> timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> >> So the question is, Is there a better term that ?subject? to refer
> >> to the ?subject prefixes?? Or are the Poles just unnecessarily
> >> complicating things?
> >> John
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nahuatl mailing list
> >> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:38:27 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> Message-ID: <20140318173827.pvqbjlnh28g00o0s at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed"
>
> John,
>
> I understand what you're talking about in terms of the "alien"
> structure of Nahuatl, in terms of its being a language composed of
> "nuclear clauses," as Andrews calls them, which is not what
> Indo-European languages are about.
>
> For me "niquitta in chichi" is more like "I see him, which is a dog",
> and that "inner" translation helps me in seeing the nuclear clause
> nature of Nahuatl. But I agree that there is a zero prefix before
> "chichi".
>
> From this perspective these "yolcameh" you're talking about are indeed
> subject prefixes.
>
> I think there might be a challenge is see these subject prefixes as
> indeed subject prefixes because of the nature of Indo-European
> languages.
>
> I hope I have somewhat understood your question.
>
> Best,
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Quoting John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>:
>
> > We are having a grammatical discussion here in Warsaw concerning the
> > nature of the Nahuatl subject prefix. I guess you could say that ti-
> > functions as a subject in:
> > a) titlacah, We are people
> > b) tinehnemih, We are walking
> > But what about in:
> > c) Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> > d) topampa in timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> > I?m using these examples because the ?subject prefix? is explicit.
> > But the question actually arose after looking at an example like:
> > e) niquitta in chichi, I?m looking at the dog. (which I would
> > literally translate as ?I´m looking at it, the dog"
> > In this case, some people say that there is not even a meaningful Ø-
> > at the beginning of chichi. Now I know that there is. But I want to
> > know exactly what it is doing. It seems that what we have called a
> > ?subject prefix? can serve:
> > 1. as the subject of a noun, i.e. titlacah, We are people
> > 2. as the subject of a verb, i.e. tinehnemih, We are walking
> > 3. as something that links the noun referent of a verbal object
> > prefix to that very verbal object prefix via the category of
> > person/number (in conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e.,
> > Xitechpalehui in timomacehualhuan, Help us, your vassals
> > 4. as something that links the noun referent of relational prefix to
> > that very relational prefix via the category of person/number (in
> > conjunction with the noun´s number suffix), i.e., topampa in
> > timomacehualhuan, because of us, your vassals
> > So the question is, Is there a better term that ?subject? to refer
> > to the ?subject prefixes?? Or are the Poles just unnecessarily
> > complicating things?
> > John
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nahuatl mailing list
> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:43:40 +0100
> From: John Sullivan <idiez at me.com>
> To: list nahuatl discussion <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Nahuat-l] ceyoc tlamantli tlen tlapacholli
> Message-ID: <5555FE85-BCE1-4139-B934-4EC121CC3251 at me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>
> Mis estimados,
> Going back through Andrews, it looks like he puts a zero subject prefix on relational words, given that it is a nuclear clause. This subject prefix would point to the verbal nuclear clause as a whole (I think). Actually I have no problem with this. Deverbal nouns that work as adverbs pretty much do the same thing. For example:
> a) ihciuhca titotlaloah, we are running swiftly. In this contrived example from Classical Nahuatl, the agentive noun, ihciuhca, does not agree in person/number with the subject of the verb
> b) yolic intlanehnehuiliah, you (pl.) think slowly (a comment a have received frequently over the years). In this example from modern Huastecan Nahuatl, the same thing happens, the agentive noun does not agree in person/number with the subject of the verb.
> So now, the question is, has anyone seen any examples of relational words with first or second person subject prefixes? The team here in Poland has found a few in Classical documents.
> John
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 04:01:04 +0100
> From: Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>
> To: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> Message-ID: <878us6rixb.fsf at fastmail.fm>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Hi list,
>
> On Tue, Mar 18 2014, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> > I understand what you're talking about in terms of the "alien"
> > structure of Nahuatl, in terms of its being a language composed of
> > "nuclear clauses," as Andrews calls them, which is not what
> > Indo-European languages are about.
>
> It might be interesting to note, however, that it is a common assumption
> among semanticists that a noun such as "man" or "dog" or "house", etc.
> is semantically a predicate, even if it's used as an argument. In other
> words, the semantic representation of a clause such as "I see the dog"
> is something along the lines of "I see x and x is a dog".
>
> >From that perspective, Nahuatl and Indoeuropean languages are more alike
> than appearances suggest...
>
> --
> Joost Kremers
> Life has its moments
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 23:28:38 -0400
> From: Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> To: Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>
> Cc: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] subject prefix
> Message-ID: <20140318232838.fomeyby1c8w8scc4 at webmail.iu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed"
>
> Absolutely! No doubt about it.
>
> Been there, done that.
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Joost Kremers <joostkremers at fastmail.fm>:
>
> > Hi list,
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 18 2014, Michael McCafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu> wrote:
> >> I understand what you're talking about in terms of the "alien"
> >> structure of Nahuatl, in terms of its being a language composed of
> >> "nuclear clauses," as Andrews calls them, which is not what
> >> Indo-European languages are about.
> >
> > It might be interesting to note, however, that it is a common assumption
> > among semanticists that a noun such as "man" or "dog" or "house", etc.
> > is semantically a predicate, even if it's used as an argument. In other
> > words, the semantic representation of a clause such as "I see the dog"
> > is something along the lines of "I see x and x is a dog".
> >
> > From that perspective, Nahuatl and Indoeuropean languages are more alike
> > than appearances suggest...
> >
> > --
> > Joost Kremers
> > Life has its moments
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nahuatl mailing list
> Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
>
>
> End of Nahuatl Digest, Vol 327, Issue 1
> ***************************************
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