Name for the Western Rgyalrong languages

Thu Nov 21 22:58:01 UTC 2013

Oh, the penny's dropped.
That is *fsə-jo* in Wobzi, for knife sharpening.

*fsə-vi-pɑ *'blacksmith'

2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>

> Dear Guillaume,
>
> The pronunciation of Siyuewu is vsɘ jo ɰu.   vsɘ jo means 'stone mill'
> and ɰu is just an article that makes a place in Lavrung. There used to be
> a big mill stone in the village, that's why people named the village vsɘ
>  jo ɰu. Siyuwwu is the Chinese *pinyin *version*.*
>
> Best,
> Gyu Lha
>
>
> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>
>> I'm not sure how it is pronounced, but it seems that the Tibetan spelling
>> is bsu yo grong (Sun 2000:164).
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/21 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>
>>> Dear Yunfan and Gyulha,
>>>
>>> For everybody's benefit, what is the pronunciation of Siyuewu in the
>>> local language, and is there a Tibetan spelling for it (I guess it would be
>>> something like sŋo...).
>>>
>>> Guillaume
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Dear Gyu Lha, thank you very much for your message.
>>>>
>>>> I have definitely heard of Siyuewu and I would very much love to know
>>>> more about the dialect there.
>>>>
>>>> So let's come back to the main purpose of this forum. Gyu Lha, do you
>>>> think Khroskyabs an appropriate name for your language?
>>>>
>>>> Cordially,
>>>>
>>>> Yunfan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> My address is abayina at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear 云帆，
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am Gyu Lha. Sorry your my delayed reply. I've been having some
>>>>>> rough times with my new college life, so things are a little stressful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, I of course heard about you from my professor Scott Delancey
>>>>>> at University of Oregon and I read your papers on Eri Township. I am a
>>>>>> freshman at the University of Oregon and I am adjusting to life in US as
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure if you know, but I am from a village called Siyuewu
>>>>>> that is close to where you did your research. I am very excited to learn
>>>>>> that someone is documenting the Lavrung language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Guillaume and all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for supporting khroskyabs.
>>>>>>> khroskyabs is pronounced [tʂʰoscæ] or [tʂʰoscæv] by Wobzi speakers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is G.yu Lha in the list? Guillaume, could you let me know her email
>>>>>>> address? I think it would be helpful for me to get in touch with her.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/11/20 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Jesse and all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  pronounced by my Rilong consultant) [rəsɲilonba], [lonba] of
>>>>>>>>> course is valley, and [rəsɲi] is an alternative loconym for the valley that
>>>>>>>>> runs along the Xianshui River, so the Daofu valley. I am still working on
>>>>>>>>> the etymology, but that’s all I have for now. However, my consultant told
>>>>>>>>> me that she would never say [rəsɲiske].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is an interesting information. I would really like to know
>>>>>>>> where this name comes from.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Although the proper Tibetan spelling is rTau, sTau is easy to
>>>>>>>>> “derive” from the Tibetan spelling. Most Tibetans pronounce it as [tawu] or
>>>>>>>>> similarly. There are many herders in the grasslands that also pronounce it
>>>>>>>>> as [stawu]. Conversely, many Tibetans that I have talked to, some living
>>>>>>>>> inside Daofu and others not, have spelled rTau as sTau!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, since the languages of the group clearly distinguish between
>>>>>>>> rt- and st-, if they pronounce this placename with a st-, the actual
>>>>>>>> pronunciation should have precedence over the standard Tibetan spelling.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe we can keep Stau for the language variety (mainly) spoken in
>>>>>>>> Rtau county; even if some villages outside of the county speak a similar
>>>>>>>> language, this is not a damaging problem. It is very difficult to come up
>>>>>>>> with non-ambiguous names that perfectly reflect the language situaiton. For
>>>>>>>> instance, the name Japhug is not the best solution for designating the
>>>>>>>> language I am studying. These people call themselves kɯrɯ and their
>>>>>>>> language kɯrɯskɤt, and the name Japhug tɕɤpʰɯ or tɕʰɤpʰɯ (both
>>>>>>>> pronunciatins are attested) designates the Gsarrdzong/Datshang area and
>>>>>>>> does not include Gdongbrgyad, whose real name is sɤŋo in Japhug. However,
>>>>>>>> people speaking Situ call them "Japhug" as a whole, and thus the name
>>>>>>>> Japhug is not that bad for designating specifically this area.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For the subgroup of Rgyalrongic comprising Stau, I is important to
>>>>>>>> take time to as other native speakers of these languages whether 'Tre-Hor'
>>>>>>>> is fitting or whether it is appropriate; Horske is not specific enough in
>>>>>>>> my opinion (it could equally well designate the Horskad varieties in
>>>>>>>> Tibet). Another possibily would be Hor-Rgyalrong or Horpa Rgyalrongic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For Geshizha, the pronunciation appears to be rgefɕe, maybe
>>>>>>>> reflecting Dge.bshes instead of the spelling Dge.rtsa I have found
>>>>>>>> elsewhere. This language is clearly distinct from Stau, but I am not sure
>>>>>>>> which name is better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Khroskyabs seems to me a good alternative to Lavrung (what is the
>>>>>>>> pronunciation of this name in Wobzi?). I would like to know what Gyulha
>>>>>>>> thinks of it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For the Rgyalrong languages, there is little controversy, but I
>>>>>>>> will still take some time to discuss existing names. I think it is obvious
>>>>>>>> to everybody that Chinese-based place names like Chabao, Caodeng or Ribu
>>>>>>>> are a bad idea: they poorly reflect the local pronounciation (being
>>>>>>>> transmitted through the filter of Sichuan Mandarin plus Standard Mandarin
>>>>>>>> plus English) and are unable to represent the local consonant clusters.
>>>>>>>> Yet, for Situ I think that the Chinese name is the best solution,
>>>>>>>> because this language is spoken on a huge area and does not appear to have
>>>>>>>> a native or Tibetan name distinguish it as a whole from the northern
>>>>>>>> Rgyalrong languages. So Situ is perhaps the only choice we have to
>>>>>>>> encompass the whole area (the Tibetan equivalent would be rgyal bzhi or
>>>>>>>> something, but it is not a good idea to invent a name that nobody
>>>>>>>> understands). Japhug (and Tshobdun, Tawi and Zbu) people call the Situ
>>>>>>>> speakers "roŋba" to differentiate them from themselves (while calling
>>>>>>>> themselves "roŋwa"...), but this (as the autonym mentioned by Gyulha) is
>>>>>>>> not specific enough to serve as a language name, otherwise all languages of
>>>>>>>> the area could be called "rongba".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For Japhug I provide a discussion above, and for Tshobdun I think
>>>>>>>> there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For Zbu, there are some issues. The Tibetan name of the area
>>>>>>>> Rdzong'bur seems to me to be made up/recent, while the local Rgyalrong name
>>>>>>>> Zbu is known by everybody. It is not a perfect name, as this language is
>>>>>>>> spread over Rdzong'bur and Tawi areas in Mbarkhams and neighbouring areas
>>>>>>>> of Ndzamthang, but the alternative proposed by Jackson Sun, the name ɕoʁu
>>>>>>>> in Tshobdun designating speakers of Zbu and latinized as "Showu", does not
>>>>>>>> seem very appealing to me. Maybe Zbu-Tawi would be better to include all
>>>>>>>> subvarieties?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Concerning the capitalization, in former publications I used to
>>>>>>>> write rGyalrong and rTau etc but now I believe that this is useless and
>>>>>>>> that we should keep the standard capitalization: Zev is right abou that
>>>>>>>> (and several Tibetologists have independently pointed out that they did not
>>>>>>>> like this practice either).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If some of you have contacts with Stau/Hor or Lavrung/Khroskyabs
>>>>>>>> speaking areas, don't hesitate to contact your friends, ask their opinion,
>>>>>>>> and post it on the list (you can even post the original message in the
>>>>>>>> local language in IPA transcription or in Tibetan translitteration - there
>>>>>>>> is no requirement to write exclusively in English on this list, all
>>>>>>>> languages of Western Sichuan are allowed).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?TICKET=NzM1MjIyIGNhbm9ubmllckBHTUFJTC5DT00gUkdZQUxST05HIOrXmHXLLbts&c=SIGNOFF
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?TICKET=NzM1MjIyIGFiYXlpbmFAR01BSUwuQ09NIFJHWUFMUk9OR+qBZJj1o0rr&c=SIGNOFF
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?TICKET=NzM1MjIzIGNhbm9ubmllckBHTUFJTC5DT00gUkdZQUxST05HIPN3UvYx3C4m&c=SIGNOFF
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>>>>
>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?TICKET=NzM1MjIzIHJneWFscm9uZ3NrYWRAR01BSUwuQ09NIFJHWUFMUk9OR0mmCK6b6P7d&c=SIGNOFF
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>>>
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?TICKET=NzM1MjIzIGNhbm9ubmllckBHTUFJTC5DT00gUkdZQUxST05HIPN3UvYx3C4m&c=SIGNOFF
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>>
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?TICKET=NzM1MjIzIGFiYXlpbmFAR01BSUwuQ09NIFJHWUFMUk9ORxEx/ItzYw5q&c=SIGNOFF
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> G.yu Lha
>
> ------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?TICKET=NzM1MjIzIGNhbm9ubmllckBHTUFJTC5DT00gUkdZQUxST05HIPN3UvYx3C4m&c=SIGNOFF
>

-- 
མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།

########################################################################

To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
&*TICKET_URL(RGYALRONG,SIGNOFF);
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/rgyalrong/attachments/20131121/891304b9/attachment.htm>