Tai-Viet linguistics question

Wed Sep 17 04:06:41 UTC 2008

Dear Prof. Kelly (and SEALANG-ers),

Thank you for such posting this very interesting question as I was not 
aware that there were many place names in the Sino-Vietnamese borderland 
that start with gu/go/gua. Let me try my best to answer your questions.

>  1) can ke come from kon, kan, kun, etc.?

This is very unlikely. The conventional reconstruction of this etyma is 
*/γon/. The change from */γon/ to /ke/ must have involved some kind of 
reduction of that particular, as the final /-n/ has been eroded from the 
syllable. In theory, if you have a compound of type */γon/ + X, you 
could get a reduction of the first syllable. However, this cannot be the 
case for two reasons.

a) Place names in Tai languages of the type (generic)+(modifier), e.g. 
/ba:n/ + /na: di:/ 'village' + 'good rice fields', normally assigns 
equal phonological prominence to both elements. In other words, the 
first elements of the place names are normally not phonetically reduced. 
Therefore, these generic nouns that head Tai place names do not normally 
erode, i.e. we never get */ba: na: di:/ from /ba:n na: di:/. This means, 
the theory that /ke/ derives from */γon/ is not probable.
b) In cases of reduction, the vowel is usually reduced or become less 
marked. The vowel /e/ is a very marked vowel as it is both front and 
low. If */γon/ had indeed been reduced, we would expect to see /u/, /ə/, 
or something of the sort. Therefore, there is no reason why */γon/ 
should develop into /ke/.

Of course, one may argue that some process other than reduction may be 
the explanation. However, I still can't think of a scenario in which 
/-on/ would become /-e/.

>  2) are there examples of Tai place names like kon/can/kun/khon X?
I don't think such Tai place names exist. Normally, Tai place names 
starts with generics for places, e.g. 'village', 'valley', 'river', 
'meadow', 'rice field' etc. I am not aware of a single Tai place names 
that means “the place where the X people live."

There are a few publications on Tai place names. The first that comes to 
mind is

Kullavanijaya, Pranee. 1997. Viaalge names in Guangxi Province and 
Northeastern Thailand in Comparative Kadai, the tai Branch. Dallas: SIL, 
pp.97-106

There's a book written in Chinese by a professor from the University of 
Guangxi on this subject but I don't have the bibliographical information 
with me at the moment.

I am very curious about these place names you are investigating. Can you 
give us example of these place names? I hope you find this helpful.

Best,
Joe
Cornell University

Yuphaphann Hoonchamlong wrote:
> Dear sealang-ers,
> I am forwarding a very interesting query from Prof. Liam Kelly for the 
> Tai and Viet linguists on the list.
> Please post your replies, comments to the list and also send your 
> reply to Liam directly at liam at hawaii.edut <mailto:liam at hawaii.edu> 
> since he is not on the list.
> Thank you.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Liam C. Kelley" liam at hawaii.edu <mailto:liam at hawaii.edu>
>
> > I have a linguistics question which I cannot resolve (since I'm not a 
> linguist), and have not had much luck finding scholarship which 
> enables me to resolve it. I've writen my question below. Do you have 
> any advice?
> > Liam
>
> > I am trying to figure out if a certain Vietnamese word is actually 
> from a Tai language. There is a lot of evidence for linguistic contact 
> between the Vietnamese and Tai in ancient times. There is no question 
> about that. However, there is one word that is used in place names 
> which I’m not sure about.
> > After the Chinese conquered the region around 100 BC, they wrote down 
> place names in Chinese [place names in Chinese usually consist of 2 
> characters]. A lot of these names started with a character which had a 
> “g” sound (or what we would use a “k” to transliterate in Thai), such 
> as gu, go, gua ["go" is not in modern Mandarin, but is how gu may have 
> been pronounced back then]. You find these same place names used in 
> what is today northern Vietnam and southern China. Chinese scholars 
> have said that these all derive from the Tai word for “person” = 
> “khon.” So a place name like Gu X, would mean “the place where the X 
> people live” or “the place where the people of X live.”
> > At the same time, sometimes the Chinese made names which were 100% 
> their own invention, and had no relation to any indigenous language. 
> Interestingly though, alongside some such place names in Vietnam, the 
> Vietnamese maintained vernacular names, most of which began with a 
> word pronounced “ke” (sounds like แก in Thai). These names were almost 
> never written down, but were passed down orally.
> > There is a Taiwanese scholar who wrote a very good article almost 60 
> years ago where he demonstrates that this term meant “person” or 
> “people” and he argued that it was also derived from an ancient 
> version of “khon,” and was thus related to whatever word the Chinese 
> were transliterating when they wrote down all of these place names 
> that started with characters that were pronounced like gu, go, gua, etc.
> > My problem is this. I’ve looked at Li Fang Kuei’s “A Handbook of 
> Comparative Tai” (pg. 219) and see that the origins of the modern term 
> “khon” are in words like kun, kon, can, etc. I don’t see how "ke" can 
> be derived from any of those terms. The initial sound is fine, but why 
> do all of those others maintain the final n, while ke does not?
> > It does make sense that the Chinese would have transliterated these 
> terms as go, or gu, as there is no final n after those vowels in 
> Chinese [only ng]. However, Vietnamese can have an n after an o. So 
> where does ke come from, when they could pronounce words like kon 
> [con, in Viet.], kan [can, in Viet], etc.? [I don't know Chinese 
> historical linguistics, but I think the gist of what I am saying here 
> is correct]
>
> > Finally, I don’t know of examples from the Tai world where place 
> names are made up by writing “Khon + X.” Are there any?
>
> > In summary:
>
> > 1) can ke come from kon, kan, kun, etc.?
>
> > 2) are there examples of Tai place names like kon/can/kun/khon X?
>
>
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