Russian vs. American politeness (was RE: [SEELANGS] О потере чувства сти =?ks_c_5601-1987?Q?=AC=DD=AC=F1_?=(Raia Rozina RAN))

[anne marie devlin]

Thanks for this. I'll incorporate it all into my lecture on intercultural pragmatics next week. As regards the use of bitch, ho or any other such word I'm likewise flummoxed. I've even seen car stickers. Does anyone know if there's a similar phenomenon in Russian? I remember one girl who would greet myself and English speaking room mate with 'privet svolochi'. However I don't think this is the same. She seemed just to he making fun of us and our bad Russian.
AM

Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 16:28:02 -0400
From: anna.ronell at GMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian vs. American politeness (was RE: [SEELANGS] О потере чувства стиля (Raia Rozina RAN))
To: SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU

How about another worthwhile point this article is trying to make - the use of obscenities in everyday conversation. It's interesting that Rozina says that maybe the increased use of hardcore "mat" by women (which was previously unacceptable in polite society) is a sign of women's liberation. I see it every day in English. For example, a very well known phrase "Bitches get stuff done" is in my view an example of this linguistic phenomenon. It still boggles my mind though when I hear women refer to each other affectionately as cunts or call their friends "my best bitch" instead of "my best friend." 


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Paul B. Gallagher <paulbg at pbg-translations.com> wrote:

anne marie devlin wrote:




The imperative in English is generally rude and has to be mitigated

either syntactically (modality) or lexically (please). Russian

mitigates differently. Aspect, person and tense can be employed.

Think idi, idite and poshli. Such pragmatic structures are embedded

in culture and as such are extremely difficult to acquire. I've been

told that English speakers can sound like idiots in Russian and

likewise Russians can sound rude in English due to pragmatic

transfer. I used to enjoy listening to my Russian colleagues managing

their classrooms - sadites', syadte or vse seli.




Yes. Another culture's politeness strategies often come across to the L2 learner as quaint, silly, or peculiar. It's hard to accept them as normal. See below.




I would be really interested to know if there has been any research

into the use of the past as an imperative in Russian - and of course

the thoughts of fellow seelangers. Pragmatics is an aspect of

language that is often overlooked in teaching.




Koreans often ask rhetorical questions where we would use direct statements or commands:



After telling someone to leave: 안 가요? [Aren't you going?] instead of the repetitive command 가라니까! [Go, I say!], which is really harsh (compare the English "Are you still here?")



너 정말 이럴거야?

Are you really going to be like that?

(Don't be like that)



입 다물지 못해?!

Won't you shut up?

(Shut up already!)



고기 안먹어?

Aren't you eating your meat?

(Just eat your meat!)



내가 바보야?

Am I a fool?

(I'm no fool!/Who do you take me for?)



The pattern for phrasing polite commands as questions seems to be to use social expectations/duty ("shouldn't you do the appropriate thing?") rather than one's personal power ("I told you, now obey!") to demand compliance. When I first encountered these, they struck me as passive-aggressive.




Here are some denials, typically phrased as requests for proof or additional information:



내가 언제?

When did I?

(I did not!)



내가 왜(요)?

Why would I?

(I will not!)



무슨 소리야?

What are you talking about?

(No way!)



We do this last one, too.



-- 

War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.

--

Paul B. Gallagher

pbg translations, inc.

"Russian Translations That Read Like Originals"

http://pbg-translations.com



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