etymology of MANDAN

[Jimm G GoodTracks]

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:13:42 -0600 (MDT) Koontz John E
<John.Koontz at colorado.edu> writes:
>On Sun, 1 Aug 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>>
>> Are you referring to Hollow's _Mandan Dict._ (PhD. diss. 1970)?
can you tell me if there is a
>Mandan >> self-designation (or other word) that would seem a possible
etymon
>for >> Eng. MANDAN?
>Yes, that's the reference I was referring to.
>
>I couldn't locate a Mandan self-designation in Hollow.  He does give
>Nuptadi as rupta're (a' = accented a) in the introduction, but
>doesn't >mention this form in the dictionary
>I sort of have the impression that the Mandan and Hidatsa are know by
>outsiders' names and by internal village names.
>
As John suggests, Mandans & Hidatsa have been known mostly by outsiders'
names and while, the older generations have referred to themselves by
historical village names.  This tends to be true for many tribal
communities.  Although, the Poncas & Omahas had retained their original
designations, others, like the Osage (Wazhazhe) have come to be known
(and accept themselves) corrupted terms of their original
self-designations.  While other communities, Ioway,  Missouria (Baxoje,
Nyut^achi) represent a disregard for traditional terms in favor of those
by the early day explorers & traders.  The Otoe (Jiwere) represent a
different scenario played out in the early day by the "Missionaries" who
deemed that their self designation (Wadudana) to be "vulgar" and
inappropriate, to which the People responded by substituting the term
"Jiwere" to satisfy their overseers.  However, as late as 1936-39, the
last of the older monolingual generation persisted in using "Wadota".

As a result, today, some tribes are taking it upon themselves to correct
history, such as seen by the Winnebago (Hochank).

Amazingly, some of these early non-Native appelations continue to show up
in contemporary writings, either ignoring the Native designations, or
sharing them in parenthesis, then continuing the dialog with the older
non-Native terms.  Recently, in a book store, I've observed this to be
the case for the Pawnee (An exlorer/ trader name applied to them from a
corruption of a Native term, but now accepted by the Tribe as their
proper name for business and in reference to all the Bands and the tribal
community as a whole).  The historical (explorer/ trader's) Band
designations are: "Loup, Grand, Republican & Tappage".

In over 45years, I've not heard Pawnees EVER use the above terms among
themselves. Instead, the Pawnees for generations have referred to
themselves in conversation by their Band names:  Skiri, Pitahawirata,
Kitkehawki & Chauwi.  When speaking in Pawnee language, the English term
"Band" was rendered as "akitaru" [I believe, it's been a long time
-decades- to hear Pawnee spoken in converstation now], which is best
rendered as "tribe".  You still will hear of these Bands referred to even
today, with it being less so for the younger generations.  As such,
everyone claims membership to a Band, although obviously, many people are
descendents of several Bands.  While the language is threatened with
extinction, still individuals are adamant to with serious distinction,
between "Skiri" speech & "South Band" speech.  The Skiri formerly (40 yrs
ago and beyond) referred among themselves as to belonging to a "Clan" (in
English), but actually, it was referrence to villages (names), such as
the Pumpkin Vine (Village), [being the only one I remember off hand].
All the above can be confirmed via Douglas Parks at Indiana Univ
@Bloomington.

MEANWHILE,
It has been my observation & experience among the Mandan & Hidatsa, That
"Mandan" is an early traders term, which the community adopted for
themselves when speaking English.  (I have no information as to how the
early traders decided upon the term "Mandan").  In Mandan language, it
seems that they too referred to themselves early on by village
designation [9+ documented village sites], such as:   "Nuptadi/ Rupta're"
(Hollow)/ "Nu~pta' ", "mi~ti^oha~ks"(Lowie) [^=glottal], "Awigaxa" &
"Nuidadi" (Bowers)  or
"Nu^eta" (e=short e).  Edward Kennard records in 1935:  "We are Mandans=
NuNu'^etarosh."

The Hidatsa were known by a number of terms, including Gro Ventres/ Big
Bellies, Minataries and a collective term "Mirokac" which included the
River Crows.   It seems that "mi'nitari" is the Mandan name for the
Hidatsa, which oral history records states that a Mandan came upon a
Hidatsa on northside of Missouri river and, asked: "What are you?
(Nima'tawo^oro^osha)".   The Hidatsa did not understand, and replied:  "I
want to cross the water.  (wirihewa:ta:riwa:wa'hec)".  So the Mandan
thought:  "He's (saying) he's a Manitaree. (Mani'ta:niro:te^esh)."  The
two languages are not mutually intelligible.

I first came to know the Hidatsa as "Gro Ventre" and soon learned of an
unrelated tribe in Montana, equally known as "Gro Ventre".  It soon
became clear that the term was not used by actual Hidatsa persons.  The
Hidatsa have consistently referred to themselves as Hidatsa, but
acknowledge and speak of certain groups in the community of being (of the
village) "Awatixa" or "Awaxawi".  It was explained to me (by VYB, KYB &
CB) that "Hira:'tsa" is short form for "Wirahatsitati' (Willow Tree
Houses)" village.  Then "Awatixa:^at' (Short Earthlodge Village)" and
"Awaxa'^awati (Rough Hill Village)".

These were the 3 designations of Hidatsa (groups) still spoken of by the
People in the language and in English converstation.  Apparently, there
were several more, namely, "Xu'ra^ati",  "Awaxi:'rawati", "awatikix:u'",
"awaxi'^rawati (Brown Hill Village)", ""Awi^ihpawati' (Hill Top Village)"
& in 1994, ( my last stay at Ft.Berthhold of any length), the Little
Shell powwow was dedicated to the "XX^oshga" (Band/ Village).  It was
explained briefly to me that they were a group who refused to settle on
the reservation, and headed out on their own to the northwest, perhaps
journeying as far as Montana, until their destitute poverty oblidged
their return to the rez.  And if not mistaken, (I dont have my
Hidatsa-Mandan informants sitting here with me now, you see.  They were
all members of the original Singing Group of Mandaree Singers), the
XX^oshga settled to themselves in the community, and later settled the
new Little Shell community after the atrocious resettlement disruption of
the Elbowwoods, (ND) community, caused by the "need" to flood the rez
about 50yrs ago.

If you consult the first few chapters of Alfred W. Bowers, "Hidatsa
Social & Ceremonial Organization". BAE:194. 1965., I believe a lot of the
discussion of terms will be addressed to satisfaction.

I apologize for interrupting the on-going discussions, but it seemed that
the original question:  "Etymology of the word MANDAN", was not readily
answered, (and still has not been answered), and was being lost on
tangent issues.  My contribution, I hope, has been to stir the course
back to the Native view.  And  while it is interesting to know of the
early trader terms, and their origin, I find it much more facinating to
learn the original Native terminology, and its source of origin if
possible.
Respectfully,
JGT