etymology of MANDAN

[Alan H. Hartley]

John Koontz wrote:

> And a syncopated mVntari ~ mVntani isn't too far from "Mandan,"
> either. This is quite speculative, of course, though early visitors were a
> bit vague on the distinction between Mandan and Hidatsa, and it's not
> implausible that a term for one could be applied to the other.

Could it be that both MINITARI and MANDAN stem ultimately from a
Hidatsa/Crow or Mandan word for 'ford'? Moulton (Jrnls. of Lewis & Clark
Exped. III. 206), presumably from Hollow, gives Mandan mingintari 'water
ford' (< Hidatsa) as the etymon of MINITARI. Clark (1804 ibid. 207) has
"Manodans", representing the "pre-syncopated" version. (The Eng. forms
for MANDAN in final -l that I cited in an earlier message show another
perceived variant of the final consonant.) As Matthews (1877, p. 81)
says of Hidatsa, "it is often impossible, even after several repetitions
of a word by an Indian speaker, to decide between d and r, or between d,
l, and n..." The further derivation would be mVNi 'water' (Hidatsa midi,
Mandan mani) + a verbal form (? taNi) 'cross over' (Hidatsa tadi/tari).
Clark (op. cit. 209) has "Manetarres", showing V = a. I don't know what
the topographic referent would be; I assume the Missouri was nowhere
fordable in that area.

> > It was explained to me (by VYB, KYB &
> > CB) that "Hira:'tsa" is short form for "Wirahatsitati' (Willow Tree
> > Houses)" village.
>
> This sort of explanation, while not at all impossible, and for all I know
> well documented in this case, is the kind of thing that, when unsupported
> by some historical evidence, makes people think that a folk reanalysis is
> at work.

There is a modicum of historical evidence:

1797 D. Thompson Jrnl. in W. Wood & T. Thiessen _Early Fur Trade_ (1985)
111
"Three of the Willow commonly called the flying Fall Indians came to us"

1806 A. Henry (Younger) Jrnl. (1992) 234
"We now came to the Little Big Bellies Village or Willow Indians which
is situated at the entrance of the Knife River..about one mile from the
Soulier Village."

Note Matthews (1877, p. 35): "It is said by some to mean willows; but I
know of no species of willow that bears this name. By a few of the tribe
it is pronounced Hidaa'tsa, and in this form bears a slight resemblance
to the word midaha'dsa, the present Minnetaree generic name for all
shrub willows." (midaha'dsa is, I presume, identical to Jimm's Wirahatsi
cited above. Is the -t- before -ati epenthetic for euphony?)

Thanks to everyone for the help with these knotty etymologies!

Alan